From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Sun Jun 01 00:34:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 87890 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 07:34:29 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.97) by m57.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 07:34:29 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO n43c.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com) (66.163.168.177) by mta18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 07:34:29 -0000 X-Received: from [216.252.122.218] by n43.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2008 07:34:29 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.69.1] by t3.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2008 07:34:29 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.66.90] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2008 07:34:29 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 07:34:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.163.168.177 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 79.139.148.236 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: TS Election - Protest X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=GpKA-C4z7XJBIDdWhauPosDFuV-xxMTb27O7mwaglE7OcUg2 X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44754 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, mkr777@... wrote: > From "Viquetor1@ 1:24 pm (3=BD hours ago) > I demand the invalidation of ALL ballots from the American Section=20 > and any other Section where misleading information regarding the > International President has been disseminated. It would be unfair. Every national section has its preferences, and=20 cancellation of the section's voices will decidedely move balance in=20 favour of one of the candidates. Moreover, it is possible that the "misleading indormation" was=20 disseminated with that very intent =97 to invalidate the voices of=20 certain sections. Also it is insulting to the members of these=20 sections, as it pictures them the brainless sheeps unable think for=20 themselves. If you regard the elections unfair, you may demand cancellation of=20 current elections and restarting them without participation of both=20 current candidates. Two NEW candidates should be nominated. From dzyan@online.de Sun Jun 01 02:24:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: dzyan@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 49283 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 09:24:02 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.96) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 09:24:02 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.188) by mta17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 09:24:01 -0000 X-Received: from captainp6d3981 (brln-4db82ff5.pool.einsundeins.de [77.184.47.245]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu5) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0ML25U-1K2jnE0t81-00070f; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:24:01 +0200 Message-ID: <0a1f01c8c3c9$608634b0$152ca8c0@captainp6d3981> To: References: Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:25:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX195QPL8iEjrLCZP8vFPKlaQRK1WMa0ci6EAvS1 ru5XjDqCFVP/319pdWiAAuY/a77eKiqMIAtiVTdipPnffa1vKd ABlEl3hCBV4DNE5gwyF3XG0TRPIgFB9 X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.188 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Failure of Krishnamurti on the path of occultism X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=302625737; y=w-4Ywb9jheDhBn-ll2vaq5_v-IKpe4xkRUZpDL6jtJ5AQexgAyKjA4Jjog X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44755 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand" wrote: > Word God does not exist in original Hebrew Old Testament. Yahweh was > the word which was used in Hebrew Old Testament. > English translation of Yahweh is God. Yahweh does not exist in the Hebrew OT. It has YHVH. English translation of YHVH is Yahve, not God, because he is not God. Frank From dzyan@online.de Sun Jun 01 02:24:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: dzyan@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 49204 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 09:24:01 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.95) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 09:24:01 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.183) by mta16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 09:24:00 -0000 X-Received: from captainp6d3981 (brln-4db82ff5.pool.einsundeins.de [77.184.47.245]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu5) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0ML25U-1K2jnC1rZz-00070f; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:23:59 +0200 Message-ID: <0a1e01c8c3c9$5f46afd0$152ca8c0@captainp6d3981> To: References: Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:22:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18slhBXw6DXlZMVswwOG4UwOhkykuF2s8SsvpX hMn4yXvU7JFnr/ez0G+VDFjRfievwQ+QpYGKOOS2JXuUTWFrm8 qAYNNvlLTMjcGaNbuB6V3F5Wa5KKHvn X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.183 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Failure of Krishnamurti on the path of occultism X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=302625737; y=Vggs4nhbEwkf53Z_9CbwTK4HF0fi884LTM8EkINFqyR10aB10fT-FzCi0A X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44756 Wrong. As far as I know Masters have permitted publication in 1923, because of the many distortions and twisted teachings of the pseudo-theosophy and cant about Masters of Besant and Leadbeater. As far as I know Masters helped active in presevation and transcription of letters. In pseudo-theosophy and their bigot and fanatical world view - which is opposed to the Middle Way of HPB and Masters - they seem not to allow that Masters are no machines but living beings which can change their opinion if necessary. So, in the end Besant and Leadbeater by their evil doings forced publication of the Mahatma letters and worked for the good. So they are in the boat again and analyzing and separation are but illusions. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: Anand To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 7:34 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: Failure of Krishnamurti on the path of occultism Mahatmas had asked NOT to publish letters, as far as I know. If they had not permitted and somebody publishes, then I won't hold Masters responsible for causing confusion or misunderstanding. But as letters have got published, there are some statements which I find confusing. Some letters contradict with actions of the disciples accepted by the Masters. This letter is indeed very different from what would otherwise be understood from Theosophy. > > "And now, after making due allowance for evils that are natural and > cannot be avoided, - and so few are they that I challenge the whole > host of Western metaphysicians to call them evils or to trace them > directly to an independent cause - I will point out the greatest, the > chief cause of nearly two thirds of the evils that pursue humanity ever > since that cause became a power. It is religion under whatever form and > in whatsoever nation. Do Masters want to say Buddha who founded Buddism, Shankaracharya who contributed to Hinduism, Jesus who founded Christian religion made a mistake of founding these religions ? Some Mahatma Letters are such that Masters themselves can be challenged ! I can understand letters are not written always very carefully and so I won't take some statements from Mahatmas literally. According to Theosophical leaders like HPB, CWL, AB many of the Great Ones were themselves associated with the founding of religions, spread of the religions and spiritual schools. Do Masters want to say that these Great Ones from the same White Brotherhood did wrong things by founding and spreading religion ? >It is the sacerdotal caste, the priesthood and > the churches; it is in those illusions that man looks upon as sacred, > that he has to search out the source of that multitude of evils which > is the great curse of humanity and that almost overwhelms mankind. > Ignorance created Gods and cunning took advantage of the opportunity. > Look at India and look at Christendom and Islam, at Judaism and > Fetichism. It is priestly imposture that rendered these Gods so > terrible to man; it is religion that makes of him the selfish bigot, > the fanatic that hates all mankind out of his own sect without > rendering him any better or more moral for it. It is belief in God and > Gods that makes two-thirds of humanity the slaves of a handful of those > who deceive them under the false pretence of saving them. If belief in God was cause of problem, why did Masters gave Theosophy through their accepted disciples HPB, AB, CWL ? Theosophy literally means Wisdom of God. God is central in Co-masonry and LCC. Why did CWL created these two organizations ? And Besant was a co-mason. According to HPB God exists. According to Subba Rao God exists. Does that mean disciples like HPB contradicted Masters views on God ? > It is not man > ever ready to commit any kind of evil if told that his God or Gods > demand the crime - voluntary victim of an illusionary God, the abject > slave of his crafty ministers? The Irish, Italian and Slavonian peasant > will starve himself and see his family starving and naked to feed and > clothe his padre and pope. For two thousand years India groaned under > the weight of caste, Brahmins alone feeding on the fat of the land, and > to-day the followers of Christ and those of Mahomet are cutting each > other's throats in the names of and for the greater glory of their > respective myths. Remember the sum of human misery will never be > diminished unto that day when the better portion of humanity destroys > in the name of Truth, morality, and universal charity, the altars of > their false gods." Yes, this letter sounds like Krishnamurtian philosophy. But the problem is this letter itself is weak and does not withstand logical scrutiny. I don't blame Masters as they had asked not to publish letters. Anand Gholap [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Jun 01 03:11:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 41887 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 10:11:46 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.95) by m46.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 10:11:46 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO web52110.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.113) by mta16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 10:11:45 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 15271 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2008 10:11:45 -0000 X-Received: from [122.108.1.82] by web52110.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 03:11:45 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.199 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 03:11:45 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001901c8c2da$7be5b590$15113456@khidr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <139058.14999.qm@web52110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.113 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Reply-To: silva_cass@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=M9Jqu5XH77A8KFiVj2Nlxg97gKr8wyQzO4H4rAaE9xge7V0NyA X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44757 When or where did Krishnamurti say he was Maitreya? Cass --- On Sat, 5/31/08, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk&= gt; wrote: From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Lette= r To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 31, 2008, 2:55 PM Agreed. So when you are not a Meitreya and tell people your are a Maitreya, what ki= nd of teaching is that? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Lette= r Teachers come in all shapes and sizes. One doesn't have to be a Maitreya to= teach, e.g. Gandhi. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote: Sorry. The last sentence went bad..."I" is now changed to "He". My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great numbe= r of other contemporaries.=20 Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Paul= Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent Oo= m" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Saras= wati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra David-= N=E9el, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly ca= ll themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. He never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Morten Nymann Olesen=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great numbe= r of other contemporaries.=20 Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Paul= Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent Oo= m" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Saras= wati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra David-= N=E9el, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly ca= ll themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. I never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:51 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter I am not a Mason. You linked the Co-Masons with Krishnamurti. I pointed out= that if Krishnamurti was against all gurus, why would a/c to you, he or hi= s followers advocate a co-mason/theosophic connection. Gobbledegook is spea= king without thinking about it first. Whether you accept it or not, Krishna= murti was a world teacher, perhaps not the kind you were seeking out, but n= evertheless he brought a new way of thinking about the Ego/Id to the world,= only previously known by followers of Theosophy or Gurdgieff.=20 Krishnamurti followed his own path, he had a right to choose whether or not= he would take on Besant/Leadbeater dreams of heralding in a Maitreya.=20 Cass Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote: My views are: So how can you be a Mason and a TS Adyar promoter of J. Krishnamurti as a W= orld Teacher Maitreya? And beside what is actually "gobblydegook" . Is he an Avatar as well? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:31 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter You are talking gobblydegook Morten, Krishnamurti said, be your own guru, n= ot get a mason 33 degree. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote: Yes. It is obvious that the Co-Masons want a J. Krishnamurti cult and not t= he wisdom of the true theosophical society and aim of Master KH and other M= asters. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: mkr777@gmail. com=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com ; theos-l=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:53 PM Subject: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter In the closing of 1900 letter, Master KH says: "The T.S. was meant to be the corner_stone of the future religions of humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed and show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward observance. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your strength." =3D=3D=3Dxxx=3D=3D=3D MKR: Is the reference to "forms and ceremonies" include that of Co-Masonry? I wonder. The Master's emphasis on being a true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward observance, is also significant. The outside world see what we do and hence it has an impact on how they perceive theosophy. I wish some of the theosophical leaders are participants here and respond t= o questions like this so that the we are all clear in our minds. Ramadoss [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dzyan@online.de Sun Jun 01 03:15:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: dzyan@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 50294 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 10:15:23 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.96) by m56.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 10:15:23 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.171) by mta17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 10:15:23 -0000 X-Received: from captainp6d3981 (brln-4db82ff5.pool.einsundeins.de [77.184.47.245]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu6) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0ML29c-1K2kav1V9g-0004gi; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 12:15:22 +0200 Message-ID: <0a6001c8c3d0$8ce59850$152ca8c0@captainp6d3981> To: References: <001301c8c1b6$c8369c90$15113456@khidr> <483F2825.5050400@dnainternet.net> <001001c8c2da$4809ccc0$15113456@khidr> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:16:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX18kCG99esBRyPCNrJPghd4yfsjerNST+M4PAWA 8Z74IWVlYuEkp5ihJYMPsKjAOPjFL5VNJ2CgqsXkbVk4vYE3Ev CU3ZYJ+UTeZQaBLnQPbogcmH1ySIo8k X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.171 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky, Theosophy and God X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=302625737; y=BQsnkedXS9x7mcAKtzGmfj8YjRkTwM610VZwv4pcv4SzSjg1fm0DJ2xo8w X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44758 Dear Morten, that would fit well with Paracelsus, who says in his Prognosticon that the sign of Scorpio is the enemy of the Church. The adopted founding date of the TS is November, 17th. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: Morten Nymann Olesen To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 6:53 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky, Theosophy and God Perhaps she meant that we were better of if we got rid of Christianity. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: Jokela Petri To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 12:03 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky, Theosophy and God She said: "We act, instead of talking." Maye she meant that she pray, not talk and pray. :-) >From one point of view praying and meditating are pretty much same, if praying is not just talking. I wonder what is the origin of word pray. Morten Nymann Olesen kirjoitti: > > My views are: > > I think H. P. Blavatsky most clearly spoke out on the issue of God. > So I see no reason to pray in any Church what so ever. > > "The Key to Theosophy by H. P. Blavatsky > Section 5 > THE FUNDAMENTAL TEACHINGS OF THEOSOPHY > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ON GOD AND PRAYER > ENQUIRER. Do you believe in God? > > THEOSOPHIST. That depends what you mean by the term. > > ENQUIRER. I mean the God of the Christians, the Father of Jesus, and > the Creator: the Biblical God of Moses, in short. > > THEOSOPHIST. In such a God we do not believe. We reject the idea of a > personal, or an extra-cosmic and anthropomorphic God, who is but the > gigantic shadow of man, and not of man at his best, either. The God of > theology, we say -- and prove it -- is a bundle of contradictions and > a logical impossibility. Therefore, we will have nothing to do with him. > > ENQUIRER. State your reasons, if you please. > > THEOSOPHIST. They are many, and cannot all receive attention. But here > are a few. This God is called by his devotees infinite and absolute, > is he not? > > ENQUIRER. I believe he is. > > THEOSOPHIST. Then, if infinite -- i. e., limitless -- and especially > if absolute, how can he have a form, and be a creator of anything? > Form implies limitation, and a beginning as well as an end; and, in > order to create, a Being must think and plan. How can the ABSOLUTE be > supposed to think -- i. e., to have any relation whatever to that > which is limited, finite, and conditioned? This is a philosophical, > and a logical absurdity. Even the Hebrew Kabala rejects such an idea, > and therefore, makes of the one and the Absolute Deific Principle an > infinite Unity called Ain-Soph. (1) In order to create, the Creator > has to become active; and as this is impossible for ABSOLUTENESS, the > infinite principle had to be shown becoming the cause of evolution > (not creation) in an indirect way -- i.e., through the emanation from > itself (another absurdity, due this time to the translators of the > Kabala) (2) of the Sephiroth. " > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-5.htm > > > "IS IT NECESSARY TO PRAY? > > ENQUIRER. Do you believe in prayer, and do you ever pray? > > THEOSOPHIST. We do not. We act, instead of talking. > > ENQUIRER. You do not offer prayers even to the Absolute Principle? > > THEOSOPHIST. Why should we? Being well-occupied people, we can hardly > afford to lose time in addressing verbal prayers to a pure > abstraction. The Unknowable is capable of relations only in its parts > to each other, but is non-existent as regards any finite relations. > The visible universe depends for its existence and phenomena on its > mutually acting forms and their laws, not on prayer or prayers. > > ENQUIRER. Do you not believe at all in the efficacy of prayer? > > THEOSOPHIST. Not in prayer taught in so many words and repeated > externally, if by prayer you mean the outward petition to an unknown > God as the addressee, which was inaugurated by the Jews and > popularised by the Pharisees. > > ENQUIRER. Is there any other kind of prayer? > > THEOSOPHIST. Most decidedly; we call it WILL-PRAYER, and it is rather > an internal command than a petition. > > ENQUIRER. To whom, then, do you pray when you do so? > > THEOSOPHIST. To "our Father in heaven" -- in its esoteric meaning. > > ENQUIRER. Is that different from the one given to it in theology? > > THEOSOPHIST. Entirely so. An Occultist or a Theosophist addresses his > prayer to his Father which is in secret (read, and try to understand, > ch. vi. v. 6, Matthew), not to an extra-cosmic and therefore finite > God; and that "Father" is in man himself. > > ENQUIRER. Then you make of man a God? > > THEOSOPHIST. Please say "God" and not a God. In our sense, the inner > man is the only God we can have cognizance of. And how can this be > otherwise? Grant us our postulate that God is a universally diffused, > infinite principle, and how can man alone escape from being soaked > through by, and in, the Deity? We call our "Father in heaven" that > deific essence of which we are cognizant within us, in our heart and > spiritual consciousness, and which has nothing to do with the > anthropomorphic conception we may form of it in our physical brain or > its fancy: "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the > spirit of (the absolute) God dwelleth in you?" (3) Yet, let no man > anthropomorphise that essence in us. Let no Theosophist, if he would > hold to divine, not human truth, say that this "God in secret" listens > to, or is distinct from, either finite man or the infinite essence -- > for all are one. Nor, as just remarked, that a prayer is a petit ion. > It is a mystery rather; an occult process by which finite and > conditioned thoughts and desires, unable to be assimilated by the > absolute spirit which is unconditioned, are translated into spiritual > wills and the will; such process being called "spiritual > transmutation." The intensity of our ardent aspirations changes prayer > into the "philosopher's stone," or that which transmutes lead into > pure gold. The only homogeneous essence, our "will-prayer" becomes the > active or creative force, producing effects according to our desire. > > ENQUIRER. Do you mean to say that prayer is an occult process bringing > about physical results? > > THEOSOPHIST. I do. Will-Power becomes a living power. But woe unto > those Occultists and Theosophists, who, instead of crushing out the > desires of the lower personal ego or physical man, and saying, > addressing their Higher Spiritual EGO immersed in Atma-Buddhic light, > "Thy will be done, not mine," etc., send up waves of will-power for > selfish or unholy purposes! For this is black magic, abomination, and > spiritual sorcery. Unfortunately, all this is the favourite occupation > of our Christian statesmen and generals, especially when the latter > are sending two armies to murder each other. Both indulge before > action in a bit of such sorcery, by offering respectively prayers to > the same God of Hosts, each entreating his help to cut its enemies' > throats. " > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-5.htm > > > M. Sufilight > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Sun Jun 01 03:35:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 91805 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 10:35:43 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.95) by m41.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 10:35:43 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mx03.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.13) by mta16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 10:35:42 -0000 X-Received: from 56341115.rev.stofanet.dk ([86.52.17.21] helo=khidr) by mx03.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1K2kua-0006tg-2w for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 12:35:41 +0200 Message-ID: <00ec01c8c3d3$452a8770$15113456@khidr> To: References: <139058.14999.qm@web52110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:35:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.13 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=eSoh8h9dMM55SKMpZbus44EoGCSnnhcle_Bv2X5IfEYb X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44759 To all readers My views are: Allright Cass. Here we go... 1. There you are, - J. Krishnamurti said: "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself= without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you t= o worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life whi= ch dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, r= eligions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth." http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1928-let-understanding-be-the-law/jiddu-kr= ishnamurti-let-understanding-be-the-law-07.php 2. J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed false teachings: The fact that J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed the following tell= s me, that he was not caring about the Theosophical Society as it was given= by H. P. Blavatsky.=20 "What happened to the Theosophical Society, through the years, under the gu= idance of Mrs. Besant, became abundantly clear during a "Star" Congress hel= d at Ommen, Holland, in 1925. That this event should have taken place in the year that was the fiftie= th anniversary of the founding of the Theosophical Movement, and on August = 11, the anniversary of H.P.B.'s birth, only throws into greater relief the = almost immeasurable departure from the original spirit of the Movement, to = which Mrs. Besant had led her faithful followers. The purpose of the Congre= ss was to further the "Krishnamurti" cult, for this young Hindu had been bu= rdened by Mrs. Besant with the task of "saving the world." In her opening a= ddress, which teems with supernaturalism and breathless references to perso= nages like "the Nameless One" and "Lords of the Fire," she told her listene= rs: And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message, and so= me of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement,= is definitely at the command of the King whom I serve. His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. Then He= will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their chief, the Lor= d Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only the command to menti= on seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship, Who were the "Arhats"? The first two [Mrs. Besant continued), my brother Charles Leadbeater an= d myself, . . . C. Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini Arundale, I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our Krishnaji was= one, but he is to be the vehicle of the Lord. And the other is one who is = very dear to all of us, as to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood.= He had borne his crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him= by his King. Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with Himsel= f as the thirteenth. "Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do well, for so I = am." . Now the wonder may come into your mind: H.P.B. was the only one who was= really announced as the messenger of the Master. Since then the world has = grown a good deal, and it is possible that while the few may be repelled, m= any thousands will be attracted to the Christ. . . . Whatever the effect, s= ince He has said it, it is done. . . "=20 ( http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/theosophica%20lmovement.htm ) M. Sufilight comments: Now J. Krishnamurti allowed these words to be accepted to at least 4 years = if not 18 years before he did something to at least counter them. I guess J= . Krishnamurti was not a World Teacher yet. And not even capeable of protes= ting to such a scheme. Later J. Krishnamurti was against G. Arundales leade= rship of the TS, and stayed very much away from the TS almost until Radha B= urnier came into the drivers seat. A World Teacher staying away from the TS= , which was given by the Masters. And World Teacher who almost never talked= about the Master Morya and Koot Hoomi. And when he did it was just to bash= their value and to promote himself! 3. The total denial and rejection Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932 I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not t= o spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake = propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itsel= f the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is dish= onest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge meet= ing without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What service i= s that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can only do on= e thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to make his = efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. Kirshnamurti him= self is absolutely honest.... In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says: " So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the = Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothin= g in common with what I say" http://books.google.com/books?id=3DTq8aS-ZDu_IC&pg=3DRA2-PA379&lpg=3DRA2-PA= 379&dq=3D%22Star+Bulletin%22+1931+Krishnamurti&source=3Dweb&ots=3DStjngNWK0= k&sig=3DyBGu2frkW1eUSqpsDYFDftGSKe4#PRA2-PA379,M1 NOTHING? As Theosophy shows the Truth to be the underlying Principles of the Christi= an, the Hindu, the Buddhist, we are prefectly clear in having nothing in co= mmon with J. Krishnamurti. Then why in the name of the Higher Self does the= T.S. persist in propaganda on behalf of Krishnamurti? 4. Comments about the socalled Messiah J. Krishnamurti: We all remember, that to be a member of the Theosophical Society in the ear= ly J. Krishnamurti days one also had to be a member of The Order of the Sta= r in the East. So When dissolving The Order of the Star in the East, the TS= was also dissolved and did he dissolve his status as Maitreya - World Teac= her? The essence from J. Krishnamurti's "dissolving" is this: "As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not car= e if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very little= importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star,= you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti= is the World-Teacher -- partially or wholly: wholly for those who are real= ly seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-= truths.=20 You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficult= ies there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how= many trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your c= hurches new and old -- all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understandin= g. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with = me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am sayi= ng."=20 .... "So why have an organization?"=20 .... " I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I wan= t you to understand what I am saying."=20 (From "Truth is a Pathless Land by J. Krishnamurti" - http://www.tphta.ws/T= PH_TIPL.HTM) - - - - - - - All this, is more than enough to me. - - - - - - - - - 5. Mary Lutyens told about J. Krishnamurti's views: "He was quoted in Mary Lutyens book as saying to the general secretary of t= he Theosophical Society for Wales, the following statement: "He told us that he had never been able to = read a Theosophical book in His life - could not understand our Theosophical jargon and, although he had heard man= y Theosophical lectures, none of them had convinced him of their knowledge or truth."" (" Life and Death of Krishnamurti " by Mary Lutyens, p. 71 ) 6. J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict Try also the phamplet by J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict= : "Revelation or Realization:The Conflict in Theosophy" by J.J. van der Leeuw= , LL.D.(Amsterdam: N.V. Theosofische Vereeniging Uitgevers Maatschappij, 1= 930)=20 http://www.alpheus.org/html/source_materials/krishnamurti/leeuw.html M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Let= ter When or where did Krishnamurti say he was Maitreya? Cass --- On Sat, 5/31/08, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.d= k> wrote: From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Let= ter To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 31, 2008, 2:55 PM Agreed. So when you are not a Meitreya and tell people your are a Maitreya, what = kind of teaching is that? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Let= ter Teachers come in all shapes and sizes. One doesn't have to be a Maitreya = to teach, e.g. Gandhi. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote: Sorry. The last sentence went bad..."I" is now changed to "He". My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great num= ber of other contemporaries.=20 Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Pa= ul Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent = Oom" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Sar= aswati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra Davi= d-N=E9el, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly = call themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. He never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Morten Nymann Olesen=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great num= ber of other contemporaries.=20 Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Pa= ul Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent = Oom" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Sar= aswati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra Davi= d-N=E9el, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly = call themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. I never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:51 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter I am not a Mason. You linked the Co-Masons with Krishnamurti. I pointed o= ut that if Krishnamurti was against all gurus, why would a/c to you, he or = his followers advocate a co-mason/theosophic connection. Gobbledegook is sp= eaking without thinking about it first. Whether you accept it or not, Krish= namurti was a world teacher, perhaps not the kind you were seeking out, but= nevertheless he brought a new way of thinking about the Ego/Id to the worl= d, only previously known by followers of Theosophy or Gurdgieff.=20 Krishnamurti followed his own path, he had a right to choose whether or n= ot he would take on Besant/Leadbeater dreams of heralding in a Maitreya.=20 Cass Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote: My views are: So how can you be a Mason and a TS Adyar promoter of J. Krishnamurti as a= World Teacher Maitreya? And beside what is actually "gobblydegook" . Is he an Avatar as well? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:31 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter You are talking gobblydegook Morten, Krishnamurti said, be your own guru,= not get a mason 33 degree. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote: Yes. It is obvious that the Co-Masons want a J. Krishnamurti cult and not= the wisdom of the true theosophical society and aim of Master KH and other= Masters. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: mkr777@gmail. com=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com ; theos-l=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:53 PM Subject: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter In the closing of 1900 letter, Master KH says: "The T.S. was meant to be the corner_stone of the future religions of humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed a= nd show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outwar= d observance. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your strength." =3D=3D=3Dxxx=3D=3D=3D MKR: Is the reference to "forms and ceremonies" include that of Co-Masonr= y? I wonder. The Master's emphasis on being a true Theosophists both in inne= r thoughts and outward observance, is also significant. The outside world s= ee what we do and hence it has an impact on how they perceive theosophy. I wish some of the theosophical leaders are participants here and respond= to questions like this so that the we are all clear in our minds. Ramadoss [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Sun Jun 01 03:50:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 98840 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 10:50:11 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m55.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 10:50:11 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO n46c.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com) (66.163.168.180) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 10:50:11 -0000 X-Received: from [216.252.122.218] by n46.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2008 10:50:11 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.69.1] by t3.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2008 10:50:11 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.66.87] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2008 10:50:11 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 10:50:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0a1e01c8c3c9$5f46afd0$152ca8c0@captainp6d3981> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.163.168.180 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 79.139.148.44 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Theos-World Re: Failure of Krishnamurti on the path of occultism X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=oI1x7qQYi-GAOzdW3UjbWvx-0uqQnT7asXjUMle9gSdQWKVT X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44760 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" =20 wrote: > As far as I know Masters have permitted publication in 1923 Where is their written permission? Moreover, Masters expressed some=20 discontent when Sinnett published some of the letters what led to=20 charges in plagiarism: as the letters were never intended for=20 publication, they weren't checked for correctness. The errors made by=20 chelas who copied the letters led to these charges. If some medium claims that he contacted the Masters, it cannot be a=20 proof. As far I know, there were no written communications since 1900 and=20 witnessed visits since 1907. From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sun Jun 01 04:01:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 65604 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 11:01:46 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.97) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 11:01:46 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO web52103.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.106) by mta18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 11:01:46 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 15813 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2008 11:01:45 -0000 X-Received: from [122.108.1.82] by web52103.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 04:01:45 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.199 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 04:01:45 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <00ec01c8c3d3$452a8770$15113456@khidr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <799431.13501.qm@web52103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.106 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Reply-To: silva_cass@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=-QWEAn3IEsLFodVp07AoVDDCBmTI5eJwjwuI3SkPMvBiTifDjQ X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44761 I am sure you must have a mental block on this issue.  You have made c= lear what Besant/Leadbeater wanted, but in Krishnamurti's own mouth we hear= that he never took on the robe of World Teacher operating through Maitreya= . =20   The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this: "As I said, YOU (BESANT) have been preparing for eighteen years f= or me. I do not care if you (BESANT) believe that I am the World-Teacher or= not. That is of very little importance. Since you (BESANT) belong to the o= rganization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your en= ergy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher --(NOT ME, YOU, = BESANT) partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, = only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths (BESA= NT'S HALF TRUTHS) You (BESANT) have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many= difficulties there are in the way of your (BESANT'S)understanding, how man= y complications, how many trivial things. Your(BESANTS) prejudices, your fe= ars, your authorities, your churches new and old -- all these, I maintain, = are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I d= o not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you= to understand what I am saying."  (I AM NOT MAITREYA/WORLD TEACHER).   Can't you see this is BESANT'S dream for Krishnamurti and not his own.???     Cass   --- On Sun, 6/1/08, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk&g= t; wrote: From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Lette= r To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 1, 2008, 8:35 PM To all readers My views are: Allright Cass. Here we go... 1. There you are, - J. Krishnamurti said: "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself= without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you t= o worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life whi= ch dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, r= eligions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth." http://jiddu- krishnamurti. net/en/1928- let-understandin g-be-the- law/jid= du- krishnamurti- let-understandin g-be-the- law-07.php 2. J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed false teachings: The fact that J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed the following tell= s me, that he was not caring about the Theosophical Society as it was given= by H. P. Blavatsky.=20 "What happened to the Theosophical Society, through the years, under the gu= idance of Mrs. Besant, became abundantly clear during a "Star" Congress hel= d at Ommen, Holland, in 1925. That this event should have taken place in the year that was the fiftieth a= nniversary of the founding of the Theosophical Movement, and on August 11, = the anniversary of H.P.B.'s birth, only throws into greater relief the almo= st immeasurable departure from the original spirit of the Movement, to whic= h Mrs. Besant had led her faithful followers. The purpose of the Congress w= as to further the "Krishnamurti" cult, for this young Hindu had been burden= ed by Mrs. Besant with the task of "saving the world." In her opening addre= ss, which teems with supernaturalism and breathless references to personage= s like "the Nameless One" and "Lords of the Fire," she told her listeners: And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message, and some o= f the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement,= is definitely at the command of the King whom I serve. His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. Then He wil= l choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their chief, the Lord Hi= mself. He has already chosen them, but I have only the command to mention s= even who have reached the stage of Arhatship, Who were the "Arhats"? The first two [Mrs. Besant continued), my brother Charles Leadbeater and my= self, . . . C. Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini Arundale, I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our Krishnaji was one= , but he is to be the vehicle of the Lord. And the other is one who is very= dear to all of us, as to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He = had borne his crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by = his King. Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with Himself as= the thirteenth. "Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do well, for so I am."= . Now the wonder may come into your mind: H.P.B. was the only one who was rea= lly announced as the messenger of the Master. Since then the world has grow= n a good deal, and it is possible that while the few may be repelled, many = thousands will be attracted to the Christ. . . . Whatever the effect, since= He has said it, it is done. . . "=20 ( http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/theosophica% 20lmovement. htm ) M. Sufilight comments: Now J. Krishnamurti allowed these words to be accepted to at least 4 years = if not 18 years before he did something to at least counter them. I guess J= . Krishnamurti was not a World Teacher yet. And not even capeable of protes= ting to such a scheme. Later J. Krishnamurti was against G. Arundales leade= rship of the TS, and stayed very much away from the TS almost until Radha B= urnier came into the drivers seat. A World Teacher staying away from the TS= , which was given by the Masters. And World Teacher who almost never talked= about the Master Morya and Koot Hoomi. And when he did it was just to bash= their value and to promote himself! 3. The total denial and rejection Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932 I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not t= o spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake = propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itsel= f the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is dish= onest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge meet= ing without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What service i= s that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can only do on= e thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to make his = efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. Kirshnamurti him= self is absolutely honest.... In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says: " So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the = Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothin= g in common with what I say" http://books. google.com/ books?id=3D Tq8aS-ZDu_ IC&pg=3DRA2- PA379&= ;lpg=3D RA2-PA379& dq=3D%22Star+ Bulletin% 22+1931+Krishnam urti&so= urce=3D web&ots=3DStjngNWK 0k&sig=3DyBGu2frkW 1eUSqpsDYFDftGSK e4#P= RA2-PA379, M1 NOTHING? As Theosophy shows the Truth to be the underlying Principles of the Christi= an, the Hindu, the Buddhist, we are prefectly clear in having nothing in co= mmon with J. Krishnamurti. Then why in the name of the Higher Self does the= T.S. persist in propaganda on behalf of Krishnamurti? 4. Comments about the socalled Messiah J. Krishnamurti: We all remember, that to be a member of the Theosophical Society in the ear= ly J. Krishnamurti days one also had to be a member of The Order of the Sta= r in the East. So When dissolving The Order of the Star in the East, the TS= was also dissolved and did he dissolve his status as Maitreya - World Teac= her? The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this: "As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not car= e if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very little= importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star,= you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti= is the World-Teacher -- partially or wholly: wholly for those who are real= ly seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-= truths.=20 You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties = there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how man= y trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churc= hes new and old -- all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I= cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, = I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying."= =20 .... "So why have an organization? "=20 .... " I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I wan= t you to understand what I am saying."=20 (From "Truth is a Pathless Land by J. Krishnamurti" - http://www.tphta. ws/= TPH_TIPL. HTM) - - - - - - - All this, is more than enough to me. - - - - - - - - - 5. Mary Lutyens told about J. Krishnamurti' s views: "He was quoted in Mary Lutyens book as saying to the general secretary of t= he Theosophical Society for Wales, the following statement: "He told us that he had never been able to = read a Theosophical book in His life - could not understand our Theosophical jargon and, although he had heard man= y Theosophical lectures, none of them had convinced him of their knowledge or truth."" (" Life and Death of Krishnamurti " by Mary Lutyens, p. 71 ) 6. J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict Try also the phamplet by J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict= : "Revelation or Realization: The Conflict in Theosophy" by J.J. van der Leeu= w, LL.D.(Amsterdam: N.V. Theosofische Vereeniging Uitgevers Maatschappij, 1= 930)=20 http://www.alpheus. org/html/ source_materials /krishnamurti/ leeuw.html M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Lette= r When or where did Krishnamurti say he was Maitreya? Cass --- On Sat, 5/31/08, Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosophy@ stofane= t. dk&gt; wrote: From: Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk&gt; Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Lette= r To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com Date: Saturday, May 31, 2008, 2:55 PM Agreed. So when you are not a Meitreya and tell people your are a Maitreya, what ki= nd of teaching is that? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Lette= r Teachers come in all shapes and sizes. One doesn't have to be a Maitreya to= teach, e.g. Gandhi. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrote: Sorry. The last sentence went bad..."I" is now changed to "He". My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great numbe= r of other contemporaries.=20 Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Paul= Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent Oo= m" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Saras= wati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra David-= N=E9el, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly ca= ll themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. He never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Morten Nymann Olesen=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great numbe= r of other contemporaries.=20 Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Paul= Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent Oo= m" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Saras= wati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra David-= N=E9el, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly ca= ll themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. I never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:51 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter I am not a Mason. You linked the Co-Masons with Krishnamurti. I pointed out= that if Krishnamurti was against all gurus, why would a/c to you, he or hi= s followers advocate a co-mason/theosophic connection. Gobbledegook is spea= king without thinking about it first. Whether you accept it or not, Krishna= murti was a world teacher, perhaps not the kind you were seeking out, but n= evertheless he brought a new way of thinking about the Ego/Id to the world,= only previously known by followers of Theosophy or Gurdgieff.=20 Krishnamurti followed his own path, he had a right to choose whether or not= he would take on Besant/Leadbeater dreams of heralding in a Maitreya.=20 Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrote: My views are: So how can you be a Mason and a TS Adyar promoter of J. Krishnamurti as a W= orld Teacher Maitreya? And beside what is actually "gobblydegook" . Is he an Avatar as well? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:31 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter You are talking gobblydegook Morten, Krishnamurti said, be your own guru, n= ot get a mason 33 degree. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrote: Yes. It is obvious that the Co-Masons want a J. Krishnamurti cult and not t= he wisdom of the true theosophical society and aim of Master KH and other M= asters. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: mkr777@gmail. com=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com ; theos-l=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:53 PM Subject: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter In the closing of 1900 letter, Master KH says: "The T.S. was meant to be the corner_stone of the future religions of humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed and show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward observance. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your strength." =3D=3D=3Dxxx=3D=3D=3D MKR: Is the reference to "forms and ceremonies" include that of Co-Masonry? I wonder. The Master's emphasis on being a true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward observance, is also significant. The outside world see what we do and hence it has an impact on how they perceive theosophy. I wish some of the theosophical leaders are participants here and respond t= o questions like this so that the we are all clear in our minds. Ramadoss [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20 =20=20=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Sun Jun 01 04:16:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 28826 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 11:16:42 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.97) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 11:16:42 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mx03.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.13) by mta18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 11:16:41 -0000 X-Received: from 56341115.rev.stofanet.dk ([86.52.17.21] helo=khidr) by mx03.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1K2lYF-0001Nm-1P for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 13:16:40 +0200 Message-ID: <010601c8c3d8$fec9cf10$15113456@khidr> To: References: <799431.13501.qm@web52103.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:16:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.13 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=eYOqP6fSnL0VAUzFTl0oayjycZIIvw8fs9TNvmX0TRV8 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44762 Dear Cass and all readers My views are: Nobody said that he was only adressing Annie Besant in his speech. And the fact that he allowed to be called Maitreya - World Teacher for at l= east 4 years if not for 18 years without really counter-acting it - aught t= o tell you something. Even Geoffrey Hodson said that J. Krishnamurti was promoted as Maitreya - W= orld Teacher at the Star Camp in Ommen - and that J. Krishnamurti was aware= of this. And what about the following?: J. Krishnamurti said: "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself= without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you t= o worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life whi= ch dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, r= eligions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth." http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1928-let-understanding-be-the-law/jiddu-kr= ishnamurti-let-understanding-be-the-law-07.php I think it speak for it self. He never really denied not yet being realised as a Maitreya. Please, tell m= e - Is there any place where he denies being the Maitreya World-Teacher? I wonder if Annie Besant and C. W. Leadbeater raised him like this because = they themselves never admitted errors? At least H. P. Blavatsky and others - myself included are ready to admit er= rors when we can perceive them. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Let= ter I am sure you must have a mental block on this issue.  You have made= clear what Besant/Leadbeater wanted, but in Krishnamurti's own mouth we he= ar that he never took on the robe of World Teacher operating through Maitre= ya. =20   The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this: "As I said, YOU (BESANT) have been preparing for eighteen years= for me. I do not care if you (BESANT) believe that I am the World-Teacher = or not. That is of very little importance. Since you (BESANT) belong to the= organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your = energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher --(NOT ME, YOU= , BESANT) partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking= , only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths (BE= SANT'S HALF TRUTHS) You (BESANT) have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how ma= ny difficulties there are in the way of your (BESANT'S)understanding, how m= any complications, how many trivial things. Your(BESANTS) prejudices, your = fears, your authorities, your churches new and old -- all these, I maintain= , are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I= do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want y= ou to understand what I am saying."  (I AM NOT MAITREYA/WORLD TEACHER)= .   Can't you see this is BESANT'S dream for Krishnamurti and not his own.???     Cass   --- On Sun, 6/1/08, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk= > wrote: From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Let= ter To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 1, 2008, 8:35 PM To all readers My views are: Allright Cass. Here we go... 1. There you are, - J. Krishnamurti said: "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itse= lf without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you= to worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life w= hich dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs,= religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth." http://jiddu- krishnamurti. net/en/1928- let-understandin g-be-the- law/j= iddu- krishnamurti- let-understandin g-be-the- law-07.php 2. J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed false teachings: The fact that J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed the following te= lls me, that he was not caring about the Theosophical Society as it was giv= en by H. P. Blavatsky.=20 "What happened to the Theosophical Society, through the years, under the = guidance of Mrs. Besant, became abundantly clear during a "Star" Congress h= eld at Ommen, Holland, in 1925. That this event should have taken place in the year that was the fiftieth= anniversary of the founding of the Theosophical Movement, and on August 11= , the anniversary of H.P.B.'s birth, only throws into greater relief the al= most immeasurable departure from the original spirit of the Movement, to wh= ich Mrs. Besant had led her faithful followers. The purpose of the Congress= was to further the "Krishnamurti" cult, for this young Hindu had been burd= ened by Mrs. Besant with the task of "saving the world." In her opening add= ress, which teems with supernaturalism and breathless references to persona= ges like "the Nameless One" and "Lords of the Fire," she told her listeners= : And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message, and some= of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcemen= t, is definitely at the command of the King whom I serve. His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. Then He w= ill choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their chief, the Lord = Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only the command to mention= seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship, Who were the "Arhats"? The first two [Mrs. Besant continued), my brother Charles Leadbeater and = myself, . . . C. Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini Arundale, I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our Krishnaji was o= ne, but he is to be the vehicle of the Lord. And the other is one who is ve= ry dear to all of us, as to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. H= e had borne his crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him b= y his King. Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with Himself = as the thirteenth. "Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do well, for so I am= ." . Now the wonder may come into your mind: H.P.B. was the only one who was r= eally announced as the messenger of the Master. Since then the world has gr= own a good deal, and it is possible that while the few may be repelled, man= y thousands will be attracted to the Christ. . . . Whatever the effect, sin= ce He has said it, it is done. . . "=20 ( http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/theosophica% 20lmovement. htm ) M. Sufilight comments: Now J. Krishnamurti allowed these words to be accepted to at least 4 year= s if not 18 years before he did something to at least counter them. I guess= J. Krishnamurti was not a World Teacher yet. And not even capeable of prot= esting to such a scheme. Later J. Krishnamurti was against G. Arundales lea= dership of the TS, and stayed very much away from the TS almost until Radha= Burnier came into the drivers seat. A World Teacher staying away from the = TS, which was given by the Masters. And World Teacher who almost never talk= ed about the Master Morya and Koot Hoomi. And when he did it was just to ba= sh their value and to promote himself! 3. The total denial and rejection Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932 I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not= to spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertak= e propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call its= elf the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is di= shonest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge me= eting without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What service= is that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can only do = one thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to make hi= s efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. Kirshnamurti h= imself is absolutely honest.... In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says: " So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by th= e Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has noth= ing in common with what I say" http://books. google.com/ books?id=3D Tq8aS-ZDu_ IC&pg=3DRA2- PA379&a= mp;lpg=3D RA2-PA379& dq=3D%22Star+ Bulletin% 22+1931+Krishnam urti&= source=3D web&ots=3DStjngNWK 0k&sig=3DyBGu2frkW 1eUSqpsDYFDftGSK e4= #PRA2-PA379, M1 NOTHING? As Theosophy shows the Truth to be the underlying Principles of the Chris= tian, the Hindu, the Buddhist, we are prefectly clear in having nothing in = common with J. Krishnamurti. Then why in the name of the Higher Self does t= he T.S. persist in propaganda on behalf of Krishnamurti? 4. Comments about the socalled Messiah J. Krishnamurti: We all remember, that to be a member of the Theosophical Society in the e= arly J. Krishnamurti days one also had to be a member of The Order of the S= tar in the East. So When dissolving The Order of the Star in the East, the = TS was also dissolved and did he dissolve his status as Maitreya - World Te= acher? The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this: "As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not c= are if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very litt= le importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Sta= r, you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamur= ti is the World-Teacher -- partially or wholly: wholly for those who are re= ally seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own hal= f-truths.=20 You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficultie= s there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how m= any trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your chu= rches new and old -- all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding.= I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me= , I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying= ."=20 .... "So why have an organization? "=20 .... " I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I w= ant you to understand what I am saying."=20 (From "Truth is a Pathless Land by J. Krishnamurti" - http://www.tphta. w= s/TPH_TIPL. HTM) - - - - - - - All this, is more than enough to me. - - - - - - - - - 5. Mary Lutyens told about J. Krishnamurti' s views: "He was quoted in Mary Lutyens book as saying to the general secretary of= the Theosophical Society for Wales, the following statement: "He told us that he had never been able t= o read a Theosophical book in His life - could not understand our Theosophical jargon and, although he had heard m= any Theosophical lectures, none of them had convinced him of their knowledge or truth."" (" Life and Death of Krishnamurti " by Mary Lutyens, p. 71 ) 6. J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict Try also the phamplet by J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti confli= ct: "Revelation or Realization: The Conflict in Theosophy" by J.J. van der Le= euw, LL.D.(Amsterdam: N.V. Theosofische Vereeniging Uitgevers Maatschappij,= 1930)=20 http://www.alpheus. org/html/ source_materials /krishnamurti/ leeuw.html M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Let= ter When or where did Krishnamurti say he was Maitreya? Cass --- On Sat, 5/31/08, Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosophy@ stofa= net. dk&gt; wrote: From: Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk&gt; Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Let= ter To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com Date: Saturday, May 31, 2008, 2:55 PM Agreed. So when you are not a Meitreya and tell people your are a Maitreya, what = kind of teaching is that? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Let= ter Teachers come in all shapes and sizes. One doesn't have to be a Maitreya = to teach, e.g. Gandhi. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrot= e: Sorry. The last sentence went bad..."I" is now changed to "He". My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great num= ber of other contemporaries.=20 Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Pa= ul Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent = Oom" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Sar= aswati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra Davi= d-N=E9el, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly = call themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. He never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Morten Nymann Olesen=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great num= ber of other contemporaries.=20 Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Pa= ul Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent = Oom" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Sar= aswati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra Davi= d-N=E9el, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly = call themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. I never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:51 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter I am not a Mason. You linked the Co-Masons with Krishnamurti. I pointed o= ut that if Krishnamurti was against all gurus, why would a/c to you, he or = his followers advocate a co-mason/theosophic connection. Gobbledegook is sp= eaking without thinking about it first. Whether you accept it or not, Krish= namurti was a world teacher, perhaps not the kind you were seeking out, but= nevertheless he brought a new way of thinking about the Ego/Id to the worl= d, only previously known by followers of Theosophy or Gurdgieff.=20 Krishnamurti followed his own path, he had a right to choose whether or n= ot he would take on Besant/Leadbeater dreams of heralding in a Maitreya.=20 Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrot= e: My views are: So how can you be a Mason and a TS Adyar promoter of J. Krishnamurti as a= World Teacher Maitreya? And beside what is actually "gobblydegook" . Is he an Avatar as well? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:31 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter You are talking gobblydegook Morten, Krishnamurti said, be your own guru,= not get a mason 33 degree. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrot= e: Yes. It is obvious that the Co-Masons want a J. Krishnamurti cult and not= the wisdom of the true theosophical society and aim of Master KH and other= Masters. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: mkr777@gmail. com=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com ; theos-l=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:53 PM Subject: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter In the closing of 1900 letter, Master KH says: "The T.S. was meant to be the corner_stone of the future religions of humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed a= nd show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outwar= d observance. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your strength." =3D=3D=3Dxxx=3D=3D=3D MKR: Is the reference to "forms and ceremonies" include that of Co-Masonr= y? I wonder. The Master's emphasis on being a true Theosophists both in inne= r thoughts and outward observance, is also significant. The outside world s= ee what we do and hence it has an impact on how they perceive theosophy. I wish some of the theosophical leaders are participants here and respond= to questions like this so that the we are all clear in our minds. Ramadoss [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Augoeides-222@comcast.net Sun Jun 01 07:03:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: augoeides-222@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 99487 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 14:03:17 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (69.147.108.200) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 14:03:17 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net) (76.96.62.80) by mta1.grp.re1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 14:03:17 -0000 X-Received: from OMTA06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.51]) by QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id YdMG1Z00116LCl05803n00; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:03:17 +0000 X-Received: from amailcenter22.comcast.net ([204.127.225.122]) by OMTA06.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Ye3G1Z0062f4SHo3S00000; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:03:16 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=zMec-myBT8wA:10 a=mZJKYtkLMygA:10 a=G/L4PReStsXmwMahln8APw==:17 a=BNOVqCQk49nNV40BMZMA:9 a=g59JuvQq8fKaiq5kA3AA:7 a=F7ReYfymQrMYzQXpQGcJiBMWBuYA:4 a=ao4RW71Vw8YA:10 a=iYlkOlhu7C0A:10 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=G_5s8neSAAAA:8 a=ma06ZG3hnRedZwVaC8kA:9 a=OiJ4MfnZWcJk84_ZEP0A:7 a=78k0MO5vM3KUZWqzFP_AzHWyMM4A:4 a=l1KeHmMDpNIA:10 a=jeN6Q-uZn2oA:10 a=syfC3iHSy1IA:10 a=37WNUvjkh6kA:10 X-Received: from [67.166.129.157] by amailcenter22.comcast.net; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:03:14 +0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:03:14 +0000 Message-Id: <060120081403.12706.4842AC220002918D000031A22215578674CDCDCDD39C0A0B070A01099ABE@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Oct 30 2007) X-Authenticated-Sender: QXVnb2VpZGVzLTIyMkBjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 76.96.62.80 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Failure of Krishnamurti on the path of occultism X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=314500470; y=lOvfyb0dce3VvRjmfMBLp_v6hM69UQ7HAAISDG3iKZgzsoWJQYARYBFFYYySbr_x X-Yahoo-Profile: sessesgenbarpharanges Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44763 Frank, Hi, well people have many idea's about this identity that occupies history. As I previously posted "El" had two Sons Baal and Yamm. El was the deity of the Caananite/Phoenician Civilization prior to the arrival of the Ghebers of Hebron. In Genesis El is the first identative name placed before the minds of people. It was later that the first form "Yah" appeared, in time further permutations yielded Yaweh. The mystical Yod He Vav He (26) came much later in the time line from which the later modern Jehova came into appearance and finished the evolution to our present time. "Yah" was originally a "Door-sill Fetish" used to prevent the entry into the house of undesirable entity's and demons and was usually installed by a paid exorcist. Religions don't appear in finished, polished completion, they had beginning-change-end across centuries of time and drama. I suggested the works : "The Assembly of the Gods- The Divine Council in Caananite and Early Hebrew Literature " Author: E. Theodore Mullen Jr. Harvard Semitic Monographs 24 1980 Dist. by Scholars Press ISSN #0073- 0637 (From Brown University Vestiges of the Spirit-History of Man by Samuel F. Dunlap , 1858 Sod - The Son of Man by Samuel F. Dunlap, and his other works. Dunlap engaged in intensive Philology and Etymology in his works. Regards, John -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Frank Reitemeyer" --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand" wrote: > Word God does not exist in original Hebrew Old Testament. Yahweh was > the word which was used in Hebrew Old Testament. > English translation of Yahweh is God. Yahweh does not exist in the Hebrew OT. It has YHVH. English translation of YHVH is Yahve, not God, because he is not God. Frank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Augoeides-222@comcast.net Sun Jun 01 07:43:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: augoeides-222@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 48759 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 14:43:01 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.97) by m52.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 14:43:01 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO QMTA04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net) (76.96.30.40) by mta18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 14:43:01 -0000 X-Received: from OMTA10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.28]) by QMTA04.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id YeAm1Z0060cQ2SLA401G00; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:43:01 +0000 X-Received: from amailcenter07.comcast.net ([204.127.225.107]) by OMTA10.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id Yeiz1Z00G2KfMDo8W00000; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:43:00 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=tB8shuMtKV4A:10 a=Z8Gm0209Kk4A:10 a=G/L4PReStsXmwMahln8APw==:17 a=A5F8cUrYAAAA:8 a=gKX_1ojuBqW3bievUxYA:9 a=9MHXdvLkbL9bvv9ziS4A:7 a=5i6Q7TIauE4FciRx0kqSCX7gPzwA:4 a=qWKeo2SHvHsA:10 a=u6pmmePcEMEA:10 a=pvbRykgX420A:10 a=ao4RW71Vw8YA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=EvFsD9_1mWgA:10 a=1XWaLZrsAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=G_5s8neSAAAA:8 a=6lxIt7QLCurSYp9p4HoA:7 a=JWvqX_EtYmny4rWnj3OgSEXn_4gA:4 a=l1KeHmMDpNIA:10 a=jeN6Q-uZn2oA:10 a=syfC3iHSy1IA:10 a=37WNUvjkh6kA:10 X-Received: from [67.166.129.157] by amailcenter07.comcast.net; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:42:59 +0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:42:59 +0000 Message-Id: <060120081442.13308.4842B572000E2E12000033FC2216551406CDCDCDD39C0A0B070A01099ABE@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Oct 30 2007) X-Authenticated-Sender: QXVnb2VpZGVzLTIyMkBjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 76.96.30.40 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=314500470; y=y_UnCh0Hohl1uTbkKNYVnoY8Z8vPquhuoFcscOib9yFXjARlnBzRib4HjNyoiTK1 X-Yahoo-Profile: sessesgenbarpharanges Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44764 Morten, The Pre- Christian Mandaeans ended all their works with "And Life is Vic= torious!". Even back then they knew what you are unwilling to accept from t= he lips of Krishnamurti. My suggestion is read the Abidharma which fills th= e words of Krishnamurti that you qoute and which H. P. B. herself also taug= ht as she was taught. Again Krishnamurti speaks in the language of the Non-= dual until Theosphists bring themselves to exposure to the Non-Dual School = they will always be left to the conditioned mind and it's prejudices. Just = my personal perception of the situational source and causes. Regards, John -------------- Original message --------------=20 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" =20 Dear Cass and all readers My views are: Nobody said that he was only adressing Annie Besant in his speech. And the fact that he allowed to be called Maitreya - World Teacher for at l= east 4 years if not for 18 years without really counter-acting it - aught t= o tell you something. Even Geoffrey Hodson said that J. Krishnamurti was promoted as Maitreya - W= orld Teacher at the Star Camp in Ommen - and that J. Krishnamurti was aware= of this. And what about the following?: J. Krishnamurti said: "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself= without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you t= o worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life whi= ch dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, r= eligions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth." http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1928-let-understanding-be-the-law/jiddu-kr= ishnamurti-let-understanding-be-the-law-07.php I think it speak for it self. He never really denied not yet being realised as a Maitreya. Please, tell m= e - Is there any place where he denies being the Maitreya World-Teacher? I wonder if Annie Besant and C. W. Leadbeater raised him like this because = they themselves never admitted errors? At least H. P. Blavatsky and others - myself included are ready to admit er= rors when we can perceive them. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Lette= r I am sure you must have a mental block on this issue.  You have made c= lear what Besant/Leadbeater wanted, but in Krishnamurti's own mouth we hear= that he never took on the robe of World Teacher operating through Maitreya= . =20   The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this: "As I said, YOU (BESANT) have been preparing for eighteen years f= or me. I do not care if you (BESANT) believe that I am the World-Teacher or= not. That is of very little importance. Since you (BESANT) belong to the o= rganization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your en= ergy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher --(NOT ME, YOU, = BESANT) partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, = only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths (BESA= NT'S HALF TRUTHS) You (BESANT) have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many= difficulties there are in the way of your (BESANT'S)understanding, how man= y complications, how many trivial things. Your(BESANTS) prejudices, your fe= ars, your authorities, your churches new and old -- all these, I maintain, = are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I d= o not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you= to understand what I am saying."  (I AM NOT MAITREYA/WORLD TEACHER).   Can't you see this is BESANT'S dream for Krishnamurti and not his own.???     Cass   --- On Sun, 6/1/08, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk&g= t; wrote: From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Lette= r To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 1, 2008, 8:35 PM To all readers My views are: Allright Cass. Here we go... 1. There you are, - J. Krishnamurti said: "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself= without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you t= o worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life whi= ch dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, r= eligions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth." http://jiddu- krishnamurti. net/en/1928- let-understandin g-be-the- law/jid= du- krishnamurti- let-understandin g-be-the- law-07.php 2. J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed false teachings: The fact that J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed the following tell= s me, that he was not caring about the Theosophical Society as it was given= by H. P. Blavatsky.=20 "What happened to the Theosophical Society, through the years, under the gu= idance of Mrs. Besant, became abundantly clear during a "Star" Congress hel= d at Ommen, Holland, in 1925. That this event should have taken place in the year that was the fiftieth a= nniversary of the founding of the Theosophical Movement, and on August 11, = the anniversary of H.P.B.'s birth, only throws into greater relief the almo= st immeasurable departure from the original spirit of the Movement, to whic= h Mrs. Besant had led her faithful followers. The purpose of the Congress w= as to further the "Krishnamurti" cult, for this young Hindu had been burden= ed by Mrs. Besant with the task of "saving the world." In her opening addre= ss, which teems with supernaturalism and breathless references to personage= s like "the Nameless One" and "Lords of the Fire," she told her listeners: And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message, and some o= f the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement,= is definitely at the command of the King whom I serve. His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. Then He wil= l choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their chief, the Lord Hi= mself. He has already chosen them, but I have only the command to mention s= even who have reached the stage of Arhatship, Who were the "Arhats"? The first two [Mrs. Besant continued), my brother Charles Leadbeater and my= self, . . . C. Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini Arundale, I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our Krishnaji was one= , but he is to be the vehicle of the Lord. And the other is one who is very= dear to all of us, as to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He = had borne his crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by = his King. Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with Himself as= the thirteenth. "Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do well, for so I am."= . Now the wonder may come into your mind: H.P.B. was the only one who was rea= lly announced as the messenger of the Master. Since then the world has grow= n a good deal, and it is possible that while the few may be repelled, many = thousands will be attracted to the Christ. . . . Whatever the effect, since= He has said it, it is done. . . "=20 ( http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/theosophica% 20lmovement. htm ) M. Sufilight comments: Now J. Krishnamurti allowed these words to be accepted to at least 4 years = if not 18 years before he did something to at least counter them. I guess J= . Krishnamurti was not a World Teacher yet. And not even capeable of protes= ting to such a scheme. Later J. Krishnamurti was against G. Arundales leade= rship of the TS, and stayed very much away from the TS almost until Radha B= urnier came into the drivers seat. A World Teacher staying away from the TS= , which was given by the Masters. And World Teacher who almost never talked= about the Master Morya and Koot Hoomi. And when he did it was just to bash= their value and to promote himself! 3. The total denial and rejection Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932 I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not t= o spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake = propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itsel= f the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is dish= onest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge meet= ing without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What service i= s that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can only do on= e thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to make his = efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. Kirshnamurti him= self is absolutely honest.... In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says: " So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the = Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothin= g in common with what I say" http://books. google.com/ books?id=3D Tq8aS-ZDu_ IC&pg=3DRA2- PA379&= ;lpg=3D RA2-PA379& dq=3D%22Star+ Bulletin% 22+1931+Krishnam urti&so= urce=3D web&ots=3DStjngNWK 0k&sig=3DyBGu2frkW 1eUSqpsDYFDftGSK e4#P= RA2-PA379, M1 NOTHING? As Theosophy shows the Truth to be the underlying Principles of the Christi= an, the Hindu, the Buddhist, we are prefectly clear in having nothing in co= mmon with J. Krishnamurti. Then why in the name of the Higher Self does the= T.S. persist in propaganda on behalf of Krishnamurti? 4. Comments about the socalled Messiah J. Krishnamurti: We all remember, that to be a member of the Theosophical Society in the ear= ly J. Krishnamurti days one also had to be a member of The Order of the Sta= r in the East. So When dissolving The Order of the Star in the East, the TS= was also dissolved and did he dissolve his status as Maitreya - World Teac= her? The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this: "As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not car= e if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very little= importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star,= you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti= is the World-Teacher -- partially or wholly: wholly for those who are real= ly seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-= truths.=20 You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties = there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how man= y trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churc= hes new and old -- all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I= cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, = I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying."= =20 .... "So why have an organization? "=20 .... " I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I wan= t you to understand what I am saying."=20 (From "Truth is a Pathless Land by J. Krishnamurti" - http://www.tphta. ws/= TPH_TIPL. HTM) - - - - - - - All this, is more than enough to me. - - - - - - - - - 5. Mary Lutyens told about J. Krishnamurti' s views: "He was quoted in Mary Lutyens book as saying to the general secretary of t= he Theosophical Society for Wales, the following statement: "He told us that he had never been able to = read a Theosophical book in His life - could not understand our Theosophical jargon and, although he had heard man= y Theosophical lectures, none of them had convinced him of their knowledge or truth."" (" Life and Death of Krishnamurti " by Mary Lutyens, p. 71 ) 6. J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict Try also the phamplet by J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict= : "Revelation or Realization: The Conflict in Theosophy" by J.J. van der Leeu= w, LL.D.(Amsterdam: N.V. Theosofische Vereeniging Uitgevers Maatschappij, 1= 930)=20 http://www.alpheus. org/html/ source_materials /krishnamurti/ leeuw.html M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Lette= r When or where did Krishnamurti say he was Maitreya? Cass --- On Sat, 5/31/08, Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosophy@ stofane= t. dk&gt; wrote: From: Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk&gt; Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Lette= r To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com Date: Saturday, May 31, 2008, 2:55 PM Agreed. So when you are not a Meitreya and tell people your are a Maitreya, what ki= nd of teaching is that? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Lette= r Teachers come in all shapes and sizes. One doesn't have to be a Maitreya to= teach, e.g. Gandhi. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrote: Sorry. The last sentence went bad..."I" is now changed to "He". My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great numbe= r of other contemporaries.=20 Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Paul= Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent Oo= m" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Saras= wati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra David-= N=E9el, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly ca= ll themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. He never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Morten Nymann Olesen=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great numbe= r of other contemporaries.=20 Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Paul= Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent Oo= m" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Saras= wati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra David-= N=E9el, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly ca= ll themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. I never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:51 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter I am not a Mason. You linked the Co-Masons with Krishnamurti. I pointed out= that if Krishnamurti was against all gurus, why would a/c to you, he or hi= s followers advocate a co-mason/theosophic connection. Gobbledegook is spea= king without thinking about it first. Whether you accept it or not, Krishna= murti was a world teacher, perhaps not the kind you were seeking out, but n= evertheless he brought a new way of thinking about the Ego/Id to the world,= only previously known by followers of Theosophy or Gurdgieff.=20 Krishnamurti followed his own path, he had a right to choose whether or not= he would take on Besant/Leadbeater dreams of heralding in a Maitreya.=20 Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrote: My views are: So how can you be a Mason and a TS Adyar promoter of J. Krishnamurti as a W= orld Teacher Maitreya? And beside what is actually "gobblydegook" . Is he an Avatar as well? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Cass Silva=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:31 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter You are talking gobblydegook Morten, Krishnamurti said, be your own guru, n= ot get a mason 33 degree. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrote: Yes. It is obvious that the Co-Masons want a J. Krishnamurti cult and not t= he wisdom of the true theosophical society and aim of Master KH and other M= asters. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: mkr777@gmail. com=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com ; theos-l=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:53 PM Subject: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter In the closing of 1900 letter, Master KH says: "The T.S. was meant to be the corner_stone of the future religions of humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed and show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward observance. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your strength." =3D=3D=3Dxxx=3D=3D=3D MKR: Is the reference to "forms and ceremonies" include that of Co-Masonry? I wonder. The Master's emphasis on being a true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward observance, is also significant. The outside world see what we do and hence it has an impact on how they perceive theosophy. I wish some of the theosophical leaders are participants here and respond t= o questions like this so that the we are all clear in our minds. Ramadoss [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Sun Jun 01 07:49:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 53206 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2008 14:49:19 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.96) by m55.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2008 14:49:19 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mx04.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.14) by mta17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2008 14:49:19 -0000 X-Received: from 56341115.rev.stofanet.dk ([86.52.17.21] helo=khidr) by mx04.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1K2os1-00016Y-2V for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 01 Jun 2008 16:49:18 +0200 Message-ID: <001001c8c3f6$b259cd60$15113456@khidr> To: References: <060120081442.13308.4842B572000E2E12000033FC2216551406CDCDCDD39C0A0B070A01099ABE@comcast.net> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:49:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.14 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=KhnhEkTAJqHrt80ile-EfWgrx85BZ4HjrQPGcgrAf--V X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 44765 My views are: I can only disagree with such a kind of teaching. That is all. I am perfectly aware of the Non-dual teachings through my own experiences. Why do you and others keep up this farce and emotionally oriented Kirshnamurti cult? Why is the following not enough to show everyone at the TS, where the J. Krishnamurti teachings belong? The total denial and rejection Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932 I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not to spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itself the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is dishonest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge meeting without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What service is that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can only do one thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to make his efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. Kirshnamurti himself is absolutely honest.... In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says: " So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothing in common with what I say" http://books.google.com/books?id=Tq8aS-ZDu_IC&pg=RA2-PA379&lpg=RA2-PA379&dq=%22Star+Bulletin%22+1931+Krishnamurti&source=web&ots=StjngNWK0k&sig=yBGu2frkW1eUSqpsDYFDftGSKe4#PRA2-PA379,M1 NOTHING? As Theosophy shows the Truth to be the underlying Principles of the Christian, the Hindu, the Buddhist, we are prefectly clear in having nothing in common with J. Krishnamurti. Then why in the name of the Higher Self does the T.S. persist in propaganda on behalf of Krishnamurti? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter Morten, The Pre- Christian Mandaeans ended all their works with "And Life is Victorious!". Even back then they knew what you are unwilling to accept from the lips of Krishnamurti. My suggestion is read the Abidharma which fills the words of Krishnamurti that you qoute and which H. P. B. herself also taught as she was taught. Again Krishnamurti speaks in the language of the Non-dual until Theosphists bring themselves to exposure to the Non-Dual School they will always be left to the conditioned mind and it's prejudices. Just my personal perception of the situational source and causes. Regards, John -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Dear Cass and all readers My views are: Nobody said that he was only adressing Annie Besant in his speech. And the fact that he allowed to be called Maitreya - World Teacher for at least 4 years if not for 18 years without really counter-acting it - aught to tell you something. Even Geoffrey Hodson said that J. Krishnamurti was promoted as Maitreya - World Teacher at the Star Camp in Ommen - and that J. Krishnamurti was aware of this. And what about the following?: J. Krishnamurti said: "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth." http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1928-let-understanding-be-the-law/jiddu-krishnamurti-let-understanding-be-the-law-07.php I think it speak for it self. He never really denied not yet being realised as a Maitreya. Please, tell me - Is there any place where he denies being the Maitreya World-Teacher? I wonder if Annie Besant and C. W. Leadbeater raised him like this because they themselves never admitted errors? At least H. P. Blavatsky and others - myself included are ready to admit errors when we can perceive them. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: Cass Silva To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter I am sure you must have a mental block on this issue.  You have made clear what Besant/Leadbeater wanted, but in Krishnamurti's own mouth we hear that he never took on the robe of World Teacher operating through Maitreya.    The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this: "As I said, YOU (BESANT) have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not care if you (BESANT) believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very little importance. Since you (BESANT) belong to the organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher --(NOT ME, YOU, BESANT) partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths (BESANT'S HALF TRUTHS) You (BESANT) have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties there are in the way of your (BESANT'S)understanding, how many complications, how many trivial things. Your(BESANTS) prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches new and old -- all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying."  (I AM NOT MAITREYA/WORLD TEACHER).   Can't you see this is BESANT'S dream for Krishnamurti and not his own.???     Cass   --- On Sun, 6/1/08, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote: From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 1, 2008, 8:35 PM To all readers My views are: Allright Cass. Here we go... 1. There you are, - J. Krishnamurti said: "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth." http://jiddu- krishnamurti. net/en/1928- let-understandin g-be-the- law/jiddu- krishnamurti- let-understandin g-be-the- law-07.php 2. J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed false teachings: The fact that J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher allowed the following tells me, that he was not caring about the Theosophical Society as it was given by H. P. Blavatsky. "What happened to the Theosophical Society, through the years, under the guidance of Mrs. Besant, became abundantly clear during a "Star" Congress held at Ommen, Holland, in 1925. That this event should have taken place in the year that was the fiftieth anniversary of the founding of the Theosophical Movement, and on August 11, the anniversary of H.P.B.'s birth, only throws into greater relief the almost immeasurable departure from the original spirit of the Movement, to which Mrs. Besant had led her faithful followers. The purpose of the Congress was to further the "Krishnamurti" cult, for this young Hindu had been burdened by Mrs. Besant with the task of "saving the world." In her opening address, which teems with supernaturalism and breathless references to personages like "the Nameless One" and "Lords of the Fire," she told her listeners: And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message, and some of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, is definitely at the command of the King whom I serve. His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship, Who were the "Arhats"? The first two [Mrs. Besant continued), my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C. Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini Arundale, I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our Krishnaji was one, but he is to be the vehicle of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King. Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with Himself as the thirteenth. "Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do well, for so I am." . Now the wonder may come into your mind: H.P.B. was the only one who was really announced as the messenger of the Master. Since then the world has grown a good deal, and it is possible that while the few may be repelled, many thousands will be attracted to the Christ. . . . Whatever the effect, since He has said it, it is done. . . " ( http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/theosophica% 20lmovement. htm ) M. Sufilight comments: Now J. Krishnamurti allowed these words to be accepted to at least 4 years if not 18 years before he did something to at least counter them. I guess J. Krishnamurti was not a World Teacher yet. And not even capeable of protesting to such a scheme. Later J. Krishnamurti was against G. Arundales leadership of the TS, and stayed very much away from the TS almost until Radha Burnier came into the drivers seat. A World Teacher staying away from the TS, which was given by the Masters. And World Teacher who almost never talked about the Master Morya and Koot Hoomi. And when he did it was just to bash their value and to promote himself! 3. The total denial and rejection Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932 I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not to spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itself the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is dishonest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge meeting without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What service is that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can only do one thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to make his efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. Kirshnamurti himself is absolutely honest.... In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says: " So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothing in common with what I say" http://books. google.com/ books?id= Tq8aS-ZDu_ IC&pg=RA2- PA379&lpg= RA2-PA379& dq=%22Star+ Bulletin% 22+1931+Krishnam urti&source= web&ots=StjngNWK 0k&sig=yBGu2frkW 1eUSqpsDYFDftGSK e4#PRA2-PA379, M1 NOTHING? As Theosophy shows the Truth to be the underlying Principles of the Christian, the Hindu, the Buddhist, we are prefectly clear in having nothing in common with J. Krishnamurti. Then why in the name of the Higher Self does the T.S. persist in propaganda on behalf of Krishnamurti? 4. Comments about the socalled Messiah J. Krishnamurti: We all remember, that to be a member of the Theosophical Society in the early J. Krishnamurti days one also had to be a member of The Order of the Star in the East. So When dissolving The Order of the Star in the East, the TS was also dissolved and did he dissolve his status as Maitreya - World Teacher? The essence from J. Krishnamurti' s "dissolving" is this: "As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not care if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very little importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher -- partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths. You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how many trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches new and old -- all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying." .... "So why have an organization? " .... " I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying." (From "Truth is a Pathless Land by J. Krishnamurti" - http://www.tphta. ws/TPH_TIPL. HTM) - - - - - - - All this, is more than enough to me. - - - - - - - - - 5. Mary Lutyens told about J. Krishnamurti' s views: "He was quoted in Mary Lutyens book as saying to the general secretary of the Theosophical Society for Wales, the following statement: "He told us that he had never been able to read a Theosophical book in His life - could not understand our Theosophical jargon and, although he had heard many Theosophical lectures, none of them had convinced him of their knowledge or truth."" (" Life and Death of Krishnamurti " by Mary Lutyens, p. 71 ) 6. J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict Try also the phamplet by J.J. van der Leeuw on the J. Krishnamurti conflict: "Revelation or Realization: The Conflict in Theosophy" by J.J. van der Leeuw, LL.D.(Amsterdam: N.V. Theosofische Vereeniging Uitgevers Maatschappij, 1930) http://www.alpheus. org/html/ source_materials /krishnamurti/ leeuw.html M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: Cass Silva To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 12:11 PM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter When or where did Krishnamurti say he was Maitreya? Cass --- On Sat, 5/31/08, Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrote: From: Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk&gt; Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com Date: Saturday, May 31, 2008, 2:55 PM Agreed. So when you are not a Meitreya and tell people your are a Maitreya, what kind of teaching is that? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: Cass Silva To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Correction - Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter Teachers come in all shapes and sizes. One doesn't have to be a Maitreya to teach, e.g. Gandhi. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrote: Sorry. The last sentence went bad..."I" is now changed to "He". My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great number of other contemporaries. Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Paul Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent Oom" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Saraswati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra David-Néel, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly call themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. He never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: Morten Nymann Olesen To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter My views are: J. Krishnamurti was no more a World Teacher and Maitreya than a great number of other contemporaries. Other similar lecturers was around in the 1920'ies and later. Just try Paul Brunton, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Pierre Arnold Bernard (aka "Omnipotent Oom" or "Oom the Magnificent" ), Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Saraswati, Swami Abhedananda (Kaliprasad Chandra), Idries Shah, Alexandra David-Néel, and several others (in other countries than those who arrogantly call themselves more civilized than others). Saying that J. Krishnamurti are standing tall above them all is rubbish. I never showed any real sign of being an Avatar and a Maitreya. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: Cass Silva To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 12:51 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter I am not a Mason. You linked the Co-Masons with Krishnamurti. I pointed out that if Krishnamurti was against all gurus, why would a/c to you, he or his followers advocate a co-mason/theosophic connection. Gobbledegook is speaking without thinking about it first. Whether you accept it or not, Krishnamurti was a world teacher, perhaps not the kind you were seeking out, but nevertheless he brought a new way of thinking about the Ego/Id to the world, only previously known by followers of Theosophy or Gurdgieff. Krishnamurti followed his own path, he had a right to choose whether or not he would take on Besant/Leadbeater dreams of heralding in a Maitreya. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrote: My views are: So how can you be a Mason and a TS Adyar promoter of J. Krishnamurti as a World Teacher Maitreya? And beside what is actually "gobblydegook" . Is he an Avatar as well? M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: Cass Silva To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 4:31 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter You are talking gobblydegook Morten, Krishnamurti said, be your own guru, not get a mason 33 degree. Cass Morten Nymann Olesen &lt;global-theosoph y@ stofanet. dk&gt; wrote: Yes. It is obvious that the Co-Masons want a J. Krishnamurti cult and not the wisdom of the true theosophical society and aim of Master KH and other Masters. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: mkr777@gmail. com To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com ; theos-l Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 2:53 PM Subject: Theos-World TS - Some more of KH's 1900 Letter In the closing of 1900 letter, Master KH says: "The T.S. was meant to be the corner_stone of the future religions of humanity. To accomplish this object those who lead must leave aside their weak predilections for the forms and ceremonies of any particular creed and show themselves to be true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward observance. The greatest of your trials is yet to come. We watch over you but you must put forth all your strength." ===xxx=== MKR: Is the reference to "forms and ceremonies" include that of Co-Masonry? I wonder. The Master's emphasis on being a true Theosophists both in inner thoughts and outward observance, is also significant. The outside world see what we do and hence it has an impact on how they perceive theosophy. I wish some of the theosophical leaders are participants here and respond to questions like this so that the we are all clear in our minds. Ramadoss [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ Yahoo! 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