From mail@katinkahesselink.net Thu May 01 00:18:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: mail@katinkahesselink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 59660 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 07:18:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m55.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 07:18:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO n31c.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.8) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 07:18:20 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n31.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 07:18:20 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.66.80] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 07:18:20 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 07:18:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.8 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 209.73.164.226 From: "Katinka Hesselink" Subject: Re: TS Elections - Kim Dieu X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=92802723; y=c4lrIY30Q9z_lcZU4TL0vo37scC5ALTGR-DchL8sNfGAtjkconXD162up4E X-Yahoo-Profile: katinka_hesselink X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43804 MKR, You are reading too much into this. Kim Dieu is just not the most communicative of people. She probably feels she has said her piece and let the chips fall where they will.=20 Katinka --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR wrote: > > I learnt that Kim Dieu, President of European Federation who has travelled > far and wide and given lectures in Europe and Canada and even at the Krotono > Institute of Theosophy had made some comments in a letter/msg sent to > several people regarding the mental and physical fitness of Radha Burnier to > be reelected as President. >=20 > I was intrigued by what I heard and hence sent her two e-mail messages > asking her to comment on her comments. She has not responded for days. > Either she could have explained or if they are incorrect, she could have > corrected. She has done neither. >=20 > Now it looks like she has joined the gang of other GS supporters of Algeo, > hoping with time and silence and keeping gullible members in the dark > about true facts of Radha's good health in the dark will achieve their > goals. End seems to justify the means. >=20 > For an organization which is supposed to uphold high standards of morality > and justice, humble novices will find it totally confusing. TS has its motto > -- THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH > and these actions cannot but harm the TS and TM in the long run. >=20 > mkr >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From Mvandertak@yahoo.com Thu May 01 00:38:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: mvandertak@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 79685 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 07:38:31 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.97) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 07:38:31 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.204) by mta18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 07:38:31 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 6923 invoked by uid 60001); 1 May 2008 07:38:27 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: fcfOW6QVM1lNKFLCkBTdDKcKcwYQcvRcWKWUoRQb4AHNW2oR3lkJQcSp6e8p_LLbvumKx.LpKBaYJERkXEHll2EdVpqfxR.KJZv7MHfYrztZ9IuFxGPx_g-- X-Received: from [82.217.39.103] by web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 May 2008 00:38:27 PDT Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 00:38:27 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <553400.5733.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.204 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: Martin Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Elections - Kim Dieu X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38276385; y=pKgkzUJfhd-p5yS2i9ureYBKwjb4F_gcUy1bA07gzC0xt6s7wg X-Yahoo-Profile: mvandertak X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43805 How do you know he is reading too much into this? To me (without judgement)he sounds sane and caring about the TS. However the TS is about to be finished and will only keep on living a shell life. After the upcoming next big war a new attempt will be made to bring humanity together again. It's all about Brotherhood, not about leaderhood. Gnoti Seauton! --- Katinka Hesselink wrote: > MKR, > > You are reading too much into this. Kim Dieu is just > not the most > communicative of people. She probably feels she has > said her piece and > let the chips fall where they will. > > Katinka > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR > wrote: > > > > I learnt that Kim Dieu, President of European > Federation who has > travelled > > far and wide and given lectures in Europe and > Canada and even at the > Krotono > > Institute of Theosophy had made some comments in a > letter/msg sent to > > several people regarding the mental and physical > fitness of Radha > Burnier to > > be reelected as President. > > > > I was intrigued by what I heard and hence sent her > two e-mail messages > > asking her to comment on her comments. She has not > responded for days. > > Either she could have explained or if they are > incorrect, she could > have > > corrected. She has done neither. > > > > Now it looks like she has joined the gang of other > GS supporters of > Algeo, > > hoping with time and silence and keeping gullible > members in the dark > > about true facts of Radha's good health in the > dark will achieve their > > goals. End seems to justify the means. > > > > For an organization which is supposed to uphold > high standards of > morality > > and justice, humble novices will find it totally > confusing. TS has > its motto > > -- THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH > > and these actions cannot but harm the TS and TM in > the long run. > > > > mkr > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From mkr777@gmail.com Thu May 01 04:04:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: mkr777@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 27294 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 11:04:32 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m50.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 11:04:32 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO an-out-0708.google.com) (209.85.132.246) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 11:04:32 -0000 X-Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d18so243620and.67 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 04:04:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.100.96.9 with SMTP id t9mr2695147anb.129.1209639871583; Thu, 01 May 2008 04:04:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.100.168.10 with HTTP; Thu, 1 May 2008 04:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 06:04:22 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: X-Originating-IP: 209.85.132.246 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Elections - Kim Dieu X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=243096636; y=uc3myRi2ab6uUOFpvSdNyADdoge2FvyU2JGKJlVHPz1L_CgAbUs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43806 Katinka, thanks for your message. I hear that the letter is widely circulated in the Europe. Do you have a copy? What is there in it so highly explosive? If you have it why not share it with all of us to clear all questions. (This is a request to all readers here as well.) I am told that Dieu, a long-time hard-workin theosophist, is very popular and highly regarded in Europe and a person in such a position should be upfront and put all the chips on the table for all of us to see. She seems to be in the middle of campaigning for Algeo and when you get involved in electioneering, issues like this one do not easily go away. Some one needs to speak up and point to members what is going on. No one needs to fear truth. It is the widespread lack of transparency that is the problem. I still hope and pray Dieu will respond so that I can post her response here for everyone to see. By the way, I have not met or had any contact with Dieu ever and there is nothing personal. It is just the principle. mkr THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH On 5/1/08, Katinka Hesselink wrote: > > MKR, > > You are reading too much into this. Kim Dieu is just not the most > communicative of people. She probably feels she has said her piece and > let the chips fall where they will. > > Katinka > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com , MKR > wrote: > > > > I learnt that Kim Dieu, President of European Federation who has > travelled > > far and wide and given lectures in Europe and Canada and even at the > Krotono > > Institute of Theosophy had made some comments in a letter/msg sent to > > several people regarding the mental and physical fitness of Radha > Burnier to > > be reelected as President. > > > > I was intrigued by what I heard and hence sent her two e-mail messages > > asking her to comment on her comments. She has not responded for days. > > Either she could have explained or if they are incorrect, she could > have > > corrected. She has done neither. > > > > Now it looks like she has joined the gang of other GS supporters of > Algeo, > > hoping with time and silence and keeping gullible members in the dark > > about true facts of Radha's good health in the dark will achieve their > > goals. End seems to justify the means. > > > > For an organization which is supposed to uphold high standards of > morality > > and justice, humble novices will find it totally confusing. TS has > its motto > > -- THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH > > and these actions cannot but harm the TS and TM in the long run. > > > > mkr > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From raquel_rpj@yahoo.es Thu May 01 04:06:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: raquel_rpj@yahoo.es X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 71217 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 11:06:27 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.95) by m57.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 11:06:27 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO web26514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com) (217.146.177.61) by mta16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 11:06:27 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 8420 invoked by uid 60001); 1 May 2008 11:06:26 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 9VVaTbsVM1l4xg0hrVGSvRN1r830ulK8oNJAHJBH2Mo2XeinbfhfUaBQUN6G6zJ5erXl4LOxtD8LimbeO3KhPd.GLfIuDDFQ7eE9DS4C1I87n2oSDHbdQ_f6mqg- X-Received: from [77.208.40.146] by web26514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 May 2008 13:06:25 CEST Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 13:06:25 +0200 (CEST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <043020081724.1509.4818AB4100088F01000005E52216525806CDCDCDD39C0A0B070A01099ABE@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <29099.8028.qm@web26514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 217.146.177.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Raquel=20Rodr=EDguez?= Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=319886574; y=sFBS7rwg9ibtJoiM6u0Tkz2arcUDrAKgxnIqkja64nqJ5mW5dQ X-Yahoo-Profile: raquel_rpj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43807 I totaly agree with you John Whithout Internet I would be out of touch with Theosophical knowelege. That would be really a loos to me. =BFAre they porno pages on internet?. I have never seen one. This is a fantastic tool for worldwide comunication. Every think that is = here it is everywhere in human mind. Every one can chose what with to tune = their own minds.=20 =20=20=20 Best regards =20=20=20 Raquel Augoeides-222@comcast.net escribi=F3: All, Hmmmm, COMMUNICATION is the primary, most fundamental purpose of the Absolu= te and the Creation which came into existance to facilitate that PURPOSE an= d GOAL. The Internet is representative of the EXPANSION of COMMUNICATION of= MANKIND! Any Suppression of occurance of a more IDEAL COMMUNICATION ENVIRO= NMENT could be viewed in a most negative light.The Ideal of Freedom is benc= hed upon Free Expression and Communication.=20 Regards, John -------------- Original message --------------=20 From: "Govert Schuller" =20 Dear MKR, Just for the record and to dispel some of your hunches. Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in his last months of being on the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 terms. I'm sure he'll be back. I encouraged him to start this new blog after the relative succes of his first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters are still being worked out. The underlying motivation comes from a certain exposure to modern organizational theory and practice and the realization that the TS could potentialy benefit from studying and applying the new ideas and practices that have been developed. It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to participate in a reflection o= n the TS's own institutional structure, which means its policy-making process= , its organizational culture, its governance model and concrete policy proposals. He is therefore taking a certain risk and should be recommended for that an= d his actions should not be interpreted with a priori suspicions as you do. Time and experience will tell, not projections based on past experiences an= d frustration. Govert ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "MKR" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:44 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier > Govert: > > There are some built-in problems with a site moderated by Chris. > > He is an officer of TSA and probably he works there as an employee as > well(someone with info can clarify this). > > So there is going to be a lot of subtle direct and indirect pressure put on > him to moderate on posts which may not be in line with official policy or > official political interests. We will never know because moderation > (censoring) takes place prior to postings. > > Also we have not seen anyone from the organization or closely associated > with it, participating in this or other independent forums. Even we have > not seen Chris even though he has been around Olcott for some years. Why are > they shy or is there an unwritten boycott? (Any clairvoyants, who can > help!!!!) > > So if anyone wants to read unvarnished opinions and critical information, > this maillist is the place. > > Also timing of the opening of the forum makes me wonder if the > organizational leaders subtly encouraged him to open the forum so that info > favorable to the organizational leaders or their policies have a place to > display them to Internet users. This is especially so because of the > continued silence of the Algeo nominators which includes the President of > TSA, even after the Radha's doctors' certificates were sent to them. > > > mkr > --------------- > Govert W. Schuller wrote: > > P.S.: > > To Ramadoss 4/28: The forum started by Chris Richardson is semi-moderated= . > Posting is restricted to 'authors,' but comments are unrestricted, and it's > mostly in the comments that the real meat is to be found. Chris is a > Theosophist who thinks for himself and his agenda is the improvement of the > organizational culture and governance model at the TSA. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] = =20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 --------------------------------- Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! La bandeja de entrada m=E1s inteligente. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mkr777@gmail.com Thu May 01 04:10:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: mkr777@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 40984 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 11:10:07 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.97) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 11:10:07 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO an-out-0708.google.com) (209.85.132.249) by mta18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 11:10:06 -0000 X-Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c36so201552ana.22 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 04:10:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.100.11.7 with SMTP id 7mr2734954ank.56.1209640205847; Thu, 01 May 2008 04:10:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.100.168.10 with HTTP; Thu, 1 May 2008 04:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 06:10:05 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <004901c8ab4a$7025e380$15113456@khidr> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <004901c8ab4a$7025e380$15113456@khidr> X-Originating-IP: 209.85.132.249 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Elections - Formerly Three Reasons..... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=243096636; y=XFbogb3Oj89D_Jszl1mpLpiFsg-ZYxGjrRNiYhXUHVQ9vpYhkR4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43808 Internet is a leap in technology. It is like moving from land line phone to wireless phone. There is no going back. Also, Internet has become the backbone of today's communcation. All I can say is wait and re-visit after three years. mkr On 5/1/08, Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > > MKR wrote: > "We had Internet now for several years, especially in the West. To what > extent has it been used to help transparency of policy and multi-way > communication? Why has it not happened so far? Is anyone expecting orders > from beyond Himalayas telling them what to do or are they too scared they > will lose the control they have?" > > "Internet is here to stay. This may be the last election where members > would > continue to be in the dark. " > > M. Sufilight says: > I would careful with the view, that the "Internet is here to stay". > > The teachings of theosophy as well as Bhagavad Gita requires that > you control your sense and organs - ", yet pondering with his heart upon > objects of sense, is called a false pietist of bewildered soul. But he who > having subdued all his passions performeth with his active faculties all the > duties of life, unconcerned as to their result, is to be esteemed. Do thou > perform the proper actions: action is superior to inaction. The journey of > thy mortal frame cannot be accomplished by inaction. All actions performed > other than as sacrifice unto God make the actor bound by action. Abandon, > then, O son of Kunti, all selfish motives, and in action perform thy duty > for him alone. " > (Bhagavad Gita, III - by W. Q. Judge) > > " Sequestered should he sit, > Steadfastly meditating, solitary, > His thoughts controlled, his passions laid away, > Quit of belongings. In a fair, still spot > Having his fixed abode, -- not too much raised, > Nor yet too low, -- let him abide, his goods > A cloth, a deerskin, and the Kusa-grass. > There, setting hard his mind upon The One, > Restraining heart and senses, silent, calm, > Let him accomplish Yoga, and achieve > Pureness of soul, holding immovable > Body and neck and head, his gaze absorbed > Upon his nose-end, rapt from all around, > Tranquil in spirit, free of fear, intent > Upon his Brahmacharya vow, devout, > Musing on Me, lost in the thought of Me. > That Yogin, so devoted, so controlled, > Comes to the peace beyond, -- My peace, the peace > Of high Nirvana!" > (THE SONG CELESTIAL - Translated by Sir Edwin Arnold) > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/bhaggita.htm > > M. Sufilight > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MKR > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:42 PM > Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Elections - Formerly Three Reasons..... > > Well said. > > Transparency based on high moral and ethical principles/policies combined > with two/multi-way communication is the key to success of any spiritual > entity. > > Without them, application of any modern management techniques which work > in > a commercial environment will not work in a spiritual organization where > one > is totally free to choose. Anyone who is expecting some "reward" now or in > the other world from the organization or its leadership, can easily be > silenced and made to toe the official policy line no matter what. That > seems > to be what is happening too long. > > Organizers are happy to keep the followers in the dark with the motto > "trust > me" and don't ask inconvenient questions. > > We had Internet now for several years, especially in the West. To what > extent has it been used to help transparency of policy and multi-way > communication? Why has it not happened so far? Is anyone expecting orders > from beyond Himalayas telling them what to do or are they too scared they > will lose the control they have? > > All these and many related questions should be raised and discussed and it > cannot be done by people who cannot openly speak their minds since there > will be repercussions from the organizations, which in some cases would > affect even their livelihood. > > Internet is here to stay. This may be the last election where members > would > continue to be in the dark. By the time next election is up, every member > will have access to Internet and no one will be able to hide anything that > is going on. > > mkr > > On 4/30/08, Augoeides-222@comcast.net < > Augoeides-222@comcast.net > wrote: > > > > All, > > Hmmmm, COMMUNICATION is the primary, most fundamental purpose of the > > Absolute and the Creation which came into existance to facilitate that > > PURPOSE and GOAL. The Internet is representative of the EXPANSION of > > COMMUNICATION of MANKIND! Any Suppression of occurance of a more IDEAL > > COMMUNICATION ENVIRONMENT could be viewed in a most negative light.The > Ideal > > of Freedom is benched upon Free Expression and Communication. > > Regards, > > John > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > From: "Govert Schuller" 40alpheus.org>> > > Dear MKR, > > > > Just for the record and to dispel some of your hunches. > > > > Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in his last months of being > on > > the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 terms. I'm sure he'll be > back. > > > > I encouraged him to start this new blog after the relative succes of his > > first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at > > http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters are still being worked > out. > > > > The underlying motivation comes from a certain exposure to modern > > organizational theory and practice and the realization that the TS could > > potentialy benefit from studying and applying the new ideas and > practices > > that have been developed. > > > > It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to participate in a > reflection > > on > > the TS's own institutional structure, which means its policy-making > > process, > > its organizational culture, its governance model and concrete policy > > proposals. > > > > He is therefore taking a certain risk and should be recommended for that > > and > > his actions should not be interpreted with a priori suspicions as you > do. > > Time and experience will tell, not projections based on past experiences > > and > > frustration. > > > > Govert > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "MKR" > > > To: 40yahoogroups.com>> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:44 PM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier > > > > > Govert: > > > > > > There are some built-in problems with a site moderated by Chris. > > > > > > He is an officer of TSA and probably he works there as an employee as > > > well(someone with info can clarify this). > > > > > > So there is going to be a lot of subtle direct and indirect pressure > put > > on > > > him to moderate on posts which may not be in line with official policy > > or > > > official political interests. We will never know because moderation > > > (censoring) takes place prior to postings. > > > > > > Also we have not seen anyone from the organization or closely > associated > > > with it, participating in this or other independent forums. Even we > have > > > not seen Chris even though he has been around Olcott for some years. > Why > > are > > > they shy or is there an unwritten boycott? (Any clairvoyants, who can > > > help!!!!) > > > > > > So if anyone wants to read unvarnished opinions and critical > > information, > > > this maillist is the place. > > > > > > Also timing of the opening of the forum makes me wonder if the > > > organizational leaders subtly encouraged him to open the forum so that > > info > > > favorable to the organizational leaders or their policies have a place > > to > > > display them to Internet users. This is especially so because of the > > > continued silence of the Algeo nominators which includes the President > > of > > > TSA, even after the Radha's doctors' certificates were sent to them. > > > > > > > > > mkr > > > --------------- > > > Govert W. Schuller wrote: > > > > > > P.S.: > > > > > > To Ramadoss 4/28: The forum started by Chris Richardson is > > semi-moderated. > > > Posting is restricted to 'authors,' but comments are unrestricted, and > > it's > > > mostly in the comments that the real meat is to be found. Chris is a > > > Theosophist who thinks for himself and his agenda is the improvement > of > > the > > > organizational culture and governance model at the TSA. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Thu May 01 04:17:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 85986 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 11:17:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.97) by m55.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 11:17:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mx06.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.26) by mta18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 11:17:19 -0000 X-Received: from 56341115.rev.stofanet.dk ([86.52.17.21] helo=khidr) by mx06.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1JrWmr-0004aQ-2U for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 May 2008 13:17:18 +0200 Message-ID: <001b01c8ab7c$f985a980$15113456@khidr> To: References: <004901c8ab4a$7025e380$15113456@khidr> Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 13:17:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.26 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:3:4:0:0 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Elections - Formerly Three Reasons..... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=uRSakDm86-o9qlxPmUGiMFjwAWEcKalqebAG2e5vHbjk X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43809 To MKR and all My views are: What I was trying to tell you was that the Internet is useful to some humans these days. The Internet is only a temporary instrument in this Manvantara. It is hopefully not here to stay. The Akasha Records are much more reliable to use. THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH. Maya is everywhere on these seven planes of devleopment. M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: MKR To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:10 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Elections - Formerly Three Reasons..... Internet is a leap in technology. It is like moving from land line phone to wireless phone. There is no going back. Also, Internet has become the backbone of today's communcation. All I can say is wait and re-visit after three years. mkr On 5/1/08, Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > > MKR wrote: > "We had Internet now for several years, especially in the West. To what > extent has it been used to help transparency of policy and multi-way > communication? Why has it not happened so far? Is anyone expecting orders > from beyond Himalayas telling them what to do or are they too scared they > will lose the control they have?" > > "Internet is here to stay. This may be the last election where members > would > continue to be in the dark. " > > M. Sufilight says: > I would careful with the view, that the "Internet is here to stay". > > The teachings of theosophy as well as Bhagavad Gita requires that > you control your sense and organs - ", yet pondering with his heart upon > objects of sense, is called a false pietist of bewildered soul. But he who > having subdued all his passions performeth with his active faculties all the > duties of life, unconcerned as to their result, is to be esteemed. Do thou > perform the proper actions: action is superior to inaction. The journey of > thy mortal frame cannot be accomplished by inaction. All actions performed > other than as sacrifice unto God make the actor bound by action. Abandon, > then, O son of Kunti, all selfish motives, and in action perform thy duty > for him alone. " > (Bhagavad Gita, III - by W. Q. Judge) > > " Sequestered should he sit, > Steadfastly meditating, solitary, > His thoughts controlled, his passions laid away, > Quit of belongings. In a fair, still spot > Having his fixed abode, -- not too much raised, > Nor yet too low, -- let him abide, his goods > A cloth, a deerskin, and the Kusa-grass. > There, setting hard his mind upon The One, > Restraining heart and senses, silent, calm, > Let him accomplish Yoga, and achieve > Pureness of soul, holding immovable > Body and neck and head, his gaze absorbed > Upon his nose-end, rapt from all around, > Tranquil in spirit, free of fear, intent > Upon his Brahmacharya vow, devout, > Musing on Me, lost in the thought of Me. > That Yogin, so devoted, so controlled, > Comes to the peace beyond, -- My peace, the peace > Of high Nirvana!" > (THE SONG CELESTIAL - Translated by Sir Edwin Arnold) > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/bhaggita.htm > > M. Sufilight > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MKR > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:42 PM > Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Elections - Formerly Three Reasons..... > > Well said. > > Transparency based on high moral and ethical principles/policies combined > with two/multi-way communication is the key to success of any spiritual > entity. > > Without them, application of any modern management techniques which work > in > a commercial environment will not work in a spiritual organization where > one > is totally free to choose. Anyone who is expecting some "reward" now or in > the other world from the organization or its leadership, can easily be > silenced and made to toe the official policy line no matter what. That > seems > to be what is happening too long. > > Organizers are happy to keep the followers in the dark with the motto > "trust > me" and don't ask inconvenient questions. > > We had Internet now for several years, especially in the West. To what > extent has it been used to help transparency of policy and multi-way > communication? Why has it not happened so far? Is anyone expecting orders > from beyond Himalayas telling them what to do or are they too scared they > will lose the control they have? > > All these and many related questions should be raised and discussed and it > cannot be done by people who cannot openly speak their minds since there > will be repercussions from the organizations, which in some cases would > affect even their livelihood. > > Internet is here to stay. This may be the last election where members > would > continue to be in the dark. By the time next election is up, every member > will have access to Internet and no one will be able to hide anything that > is going on. > > mkr > > On 4/30/08, Augoeides-222@comcast.net < > Augoeides-222@comcast.net > wrote: > > > > All, > > Hmmmm, COMMUNICATION is the primary, most fundamental purpose of the > > Absolute and the Creation which came into existance to facilitate that > > PURPOSE and GOAL. The Internet is representative of the EXPANSION of > > COMMUNICATION of MANKIND! Any Suppression of occurance of a more IDEAL > > COMMUNICATION ENVIRONMENT could be viewed in a most negative light.The > Ideal > > of Freedom is benched upon Free Expression and Communication. > > Regards, > > John > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > From: "Govert Schuller" 40alpheus.org>> > > Dear MKR, > > > > Just for the record and to dispel some of your hunches. > > > > Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in his last months of being > on > > the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 terms. I'm sure he'll be > back. > > > > I encouraged him to start this new blog after the relative succes of his > > first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at > > http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters are still being worked > out. > > > > The underlying motivation comes from a certain exposure to modern > > organizational theory and practice and the realization that the TS could > > potentialy benefit from studying and applying the new ideas and > practices > > that have been developed. > > > > It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to participate in a > reflection > > on > > the TS's own institutional structure, which means its policy-making > > process, > > its organizational culture, its governance model and concrete policy > > proposals. > > > > He is therefore taking a certain risk and should be recommended for that > > and > > his actions should not be interpreted with a priori suspicions as you > do. > > Time and experience will tell, not projections based on past experiences > > and > > frustration. > > > > Govert > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "MKR" > > > To: 40yahoogroups.com>> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:44 PM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier > > > > > Govert: > > > > > > There are some built-in problems with a site moderated by Chris. > > > > > > He is an officer of TSA and probably he works there as an employee as > > > well(someone with info can clarify this). > > > > > > So there is going to be a lot of subtle direct and indirect pressure > put > > on > > > him to moderate on posts which may not be in line with official policy > > or > > > official political interests. We will never know because moderation > > > (censoring) takes place prior to postings. > > > > > > Also we have not seen anyone from the organization or closely > associated > > > with it, participating in this or other independent forums. Even we > have > > > not seen Chris even though he has been around Olcott for some years. > Why > > are > > > they shy or is there an unwritten boycott? (Any clairvoyants, who can > > > help!!!!) > > > > > > So if anyone wants to read unvarnished opinions and critical > > information, > > > this maillist is the place. > > > > > > Also timing of the opening of the forum makes me wonder if the > > > organizational leaders subtly encouraged him to open the forum so that > > info > > > favorable to the organizational leaders or their policies have a place > > to > > > display them to Internet users. This is especially so because of the > > > continued silence of the Algeo nominators which includes the President > > of > > > TSA, even after the Radha's doctors' certificates were sent to them. > > > > > > > > > mkr > > > --------------- > > > Govert W. Schuller wrote: > > > > > > P.S.: > > > > > > To Ramadoss 4/28: The forum started by Chris Richardson is > > semi-moderated. > > > Posting is restricted to 'authors,' but comments are unrestricted, and > > it's > > > mostly in the comments that the real meat is to be found. Chris is a > > > Theosophist who thinks for himself and his agenda is the improvement > of > > the > > > organizational culture and governance model at the TSA. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mkr777@gmail.com Thu May 01 04:24:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: mkr777@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 31532 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 11:23:59 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m53.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 11:23:59 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO an-out-0708.google.com) (209.85.132.243) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 11:23:59 -0000 X-Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d11so195901and.100 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 04:23:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.100.91.17 with SMTP id o17mr2700660anb.145.1209641035904; Thu, 01 May 2008 04:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.100.168.10 with HTTP; Thu, 1 May 2008 04:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 06:23:55 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <29099.8028.qm@web26514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <043020081724.1509.4818AB4100088F01000005E52216525806CDCDCDD39C0A0B070A01099ABE@comcast.net> <29099.8028.qm@web26514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 209.85.132.243 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=243096636; y=CR_C4i6WcsFgGVdqU3b9grfLvLvlRn_rkJISDrxJsnmjRIX3Nz8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43810 Internet is leap in technology, like what TV, printing etc did. If you want porno, you can go and buy books and magazines. If you want theosophical material, you can buy books and magazines. So that is not the issue. Even in the western countries, Internet is not yet fully used for theosophy. It has to be used for two/multi-way communication with other theosophists. Have you noticed that even in the USA, we have never seen anyone in the theosophical leadership coming on the maillist and discussing. Why have they boycotted it? Do they want to deal with only medium they can control. By the way several years ago, the TS in US tried a moderated (censored) maillist and it miserably failed, because freedom to talk is basic to these maillists. mkr On 5/1/08, Raquel Rodr=EDguez wrote: > > I totaly agree with you John > Whithout Internet I would be out of touch with Theosophical knowelege. > That would be really a loos to me. > =BFAre they porno pages on internet?. I have never seen one. > This is a fantastic tool for worldwide comunication. Every think that is > here it is everywhere in human mind. Every one can chose what with to tun= e > their own minds. > > Best regards > > Raquel > > Augoeides-222@comcast.net escribi=F3: > > All, > Hmmmm, COMMUNICATION is the primary, most fundamental purpose of the > Absolute and the Creation which came into existance to facilitate that > PURPOSE and GOAL. The Internet is representative of the EXPANSION of > COMMUNICATION of MANKIND! Any Suppression of occurance of a more IDEAL > COMMUNICATION ENVIRONMENT could be viewed in a most negative light.The Id= eal > of Freedom is benched upon Free Expression and Communication. > Regards, > John > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: "Govert Schuller" > > Dear MKR, > > Just for the record and to dispel some of your hunches. > > Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in his last months of being o= n > the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 terms. I'm sure he'll be back. > > I encouraged him to start this new blog after the relative succes of his > first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at > http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters are still being worked out. > > The underlying motivation comes from a certain exposure to modern > organizational theory and practice and the realization that the TS could > potentialy benefit from studying and applying the new ideas and practices > that have been developed. > > It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to participate in a reflection > on > the TS's own institutional structure, which means its policy-making > process, > its organizational culture, its governance model and concrete policy > proposals. > > He is therefore taking a certain risk and should be recommended for that > and > his actions should not be interpreted with a priori suspicions as you do. > Time and experience will tell, not projections based on past experiences > and > frustration. > > Govert > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "MKR" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:44 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier > > > Govert: > > > > There are some built-in problems with a site moderated by Chris. > > > > He is an officer of TSA and probably he works there as an employee as > > well(someone with info can clarify this). > > > > So there is going to be a lot of subtle direct and indirect pressure pu= t > on > > him to moderate on posts which may not be in line with official policy > or > > official political interests. We will never know because moderation > > (censoring) takes place prior to postings. > > > > Also we have not seen anyone from the organization or closely associate= d > > with it, participating in this or other independent forums. Even we hav= e > > not seen Chris even though he has been around Olcott for some years. Wh= y > are > > they shy or is there an unwritten boycott? (Any clairvoyants, who can > > help!!!!) > > > > So if anyone wants to read unvarnished opinions and critical > information, > > this maillist is the place. > > > > Also timing of the opening of the forum makes me wonder if the > > organizational leaders subtly encouraged him to open the forum so that > info > > favorable to the organizational leaders or their policies have a place > to > > display them to Internet users. This is especially so because of the > > continued silence of the Algeo nominators which includes the President > of > > TSA, even after the Radha's doctors' certificates were sent to them. > > > > > > mkr > > --------------- > > Govert W. Schuller wrote: > > > > P.S.: > > > > To Ramadoss 4/28: The forum started by Chris Richardson is > semi-moderated. > > Posting is restricted to 'authors,' but comments are unrestricted, and > it's > > mostly in the comments that the real meat is to be found. Chris is a > > Theosophist who thinks for himself and his agenda is the improvement of > the > > organizational culture and governance model at the TSA. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > --------------------------------- > > Enviado desde Correo Yahoo! > La bandeja de entrada m=E1s inteligente. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mkr777@gmail.com Thu May 01 04:25:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: mkr777@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 55711 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 11:25:44 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m57.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 11:25:44 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO an-out-0708.google.com) (209.85.132.242) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 11:25:44 -0000 X-Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c23so217853anc.39 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 04:25:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.100.144.11 with SMTP id r11mr2705568and.140.1209641143442; Thu, 01 May 2008 04:25:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.100.168.10 with HTTP; Thu, 1 May 2008 04:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 06:25:43 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001b01c8ab7c$f985a980$15113456@khidr> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <004901c8ab4a$7025e380$15113456@khidr> <001b01c8ab7c$f985a980$15113456@khidr> X-Originating-IP: 209.85.132.242 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Elections - Formerly Three Reasons..... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=243096636; y=Ubv_cvpk543L9dxxEsaM_tBmHjWKuSI7FFFjRaOpceSkUKhxc1A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43811 Agreed. We have just seen just the beginnings. Lot more to come. However, technology is not going to help in our personal transformation. mkr On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Morten Nymann Olesen < global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote: > > To MKR and all > > My views are: > > What I was trying to tell you was that the Internet is useful to some > humans these days. > The Internet is only a temporary instrument in this Manvantara. It is > hopefully not here to stay. > > The Akasha Records are much more reliable to use. > THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN TRUTH. > > Maya is everywhere on these seven planes of devleopment. > > > M. Sufilight > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MKR > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 1:10 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Elections - Formerly Three Reasons..... > > Internet is a leap in technology. It is like moving from land line phone > to > wireless phone. There is no going back. Also, Internet has become the > backbone of today's communcation. All I can say is wait and re-visit after > three years. > > mkr > > On 5/1/08, Morten Nymann Olesen > > wrote: > > > > > > MKR wrote: > > "We had Internet now for several years, especially in the West. To what > > extent has it been used to help transparency of policy and multi-way > > communication? Why has it not happened so far? Is anyone expecting > orders > > from beyond Himalayas telling them what to do or are they too scared > they > > will lose the control they have?" > > > > "Internet is here to stay. This may be the last election where members > > would > > continue to be in the dark. " > > > > M. Sufilight says: > > I would careful with the view, that the "Internet is here to stay". > > > > The teachings of theosophy as well as Bhagavad Gita requires that > > you control your sense and organs - ", yet pondering with his heart upon > > objects of sense, is called a false pietist of bewildered soul. But he > who > > having subdued all his passions performeth with his active faculties all > the > > duties of life, unconcerned as to their result, is to be esteemed. Do > thou > > perform the proper actions: action is superior to inaction. The journey > of > > thy mortal frame cannot be accomplished by inaction. All actions > performed > > other than as sacrifice unto God make the actor bound by action. > Abandon, > > then, O son of Kunti, all selfish motives, and in action perform thy > duty > > for him alone. " > > (Bhagavad Gita, III - by W. Q. Judge) > > > > " Sequestered should he sit, > > Steadfastly meditating, solitary, > > His thoughts controlled, his passions laid away, > > Quit of belongings. In a fair, still spot > > Having his fixed abode, -- not too much raised, > > Nor yet too low, -- let him abide, his goods > > A cloth, a deerskin, and the Kusa-grass. > > There, setting hard his mind upon The One, > > Restraining heart and senses, silent, calm, > > Let him accomplish Yoga, and achieve > > Pureness of soul, holding immovable > > Body and neck and head, his gaze absorbed > > Upon his nose-end, rapt from all around, > > Tranquil in spirit, free of fear, intent > > Upon his Brahmacharya vow, devout, > > Musing on Me, lost in the thought of Me. > > That Yogin, so devoted, so controlled, > > Comes to the peace beyond, -- My peace, the peace > > Of high Nirvana!" > > (THE SONG CELESTIAL - Translated by Sir Edwin Arnold) > > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/bhaggita.htm > > > > M. Sufilight > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: MKR > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:42 PM > > Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Elections - Formerly Three Reasons..... > > > > Well said. > > > > Transparency based on high moral and ethical principles/policies > combined > > with two/multi-way communication is the key to success of any spiritual > > entity. > > > > Without them, application of any modern management techniques which work > > in > > a commercial environment will not work in a spiritual organization where > > one > > is totally free to choose. Anyone who is expecting some "reward" now or > in > > the other world from the organization or its leadership, can easily be > > silenced and made to toe the official policy line no matter what. That > > seems > > to be what is happening too long. > > > > Organizers are happy to keep the followers in the dark with the motto > > "trust > > me" and don't ask inconvenient questions. > > > > We had Internet now for several years, especially in the West. To what > > extent has it been used to help transparency of policy and multi-way > > communication? Why has it not happened so far? Is anyone expecting > orders > > from beyond Himalayas telling them what to do or are they too scared > they > > will lose the control they have? > > > > All these and many related questions should be raised and discussed and > it > > cannot be done by people who cannot openly speak their minds since there > > will be repercussions from the organizations, which in some cases would > > affect even their livelihood. > > > > Internet is here to stay. This may be the last election where members > > would > > continue to be in the dark. By the time next election is up, every > member > > will have access to Internet and no one will be able to hide anything > that > > is going on. > > > > mkr > > > > On 4/30/08, Augoeides-222@comcast.net 40comcast.net> < > > Augoeides-222@comcast.net 40comcast.net>> wrote: > > > > > > All, > > > Hmmmm, COMMUNICATION is the primary, most fundamental purpose of the > > > Absolute and the Creation which came into existance to facilitate that > > > PURPOSE and GOAL. The Internet is representative of the EXPANSION of > > > COMMUNICATION of MANKIND! Any Suppression of occurance of a more IDEAL > > > COMMUNICATION ENVIRONMENT could be viewed in a most negative light.The > > Ideal > > > of Freedom is benched upon Free Expression and Communication. > > > Regards, > > > John > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > From: "Govert Schuller" 40alpheus.org> > 40alpheus.org>> > > > Dear MKR, > > > > > > Just for the record and to dispel some of your hunches. > > > > > > Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in his last months of > being > > on > > > the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 terms. I'm sure he'll be > > back. > > > > > > I encouraged him to start this new blog after the relative succes of > his > > > first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at > > > http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters are still being worked > > out. > > > > > > The underlying motivation comes from a certain exposure to modern > > > organizational theory and practice and the realization that the TS > could > > > potentialy benefit from studying and applying the new ideas and > > practices > > > that have been developed. > > > > > > It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to participate in a > > reflection > > > on > > > the TS's own institutional structure, which means its policy-making > > > process, > > > its organizational culture, its governance model and concrete policy > > > proposals. > > > > > > He is therefore taking a certain risk and should be recommended for > that > > > and > > > his actions should not be interpreted with a priori suspicions as you > > do. > > > Time and experience will tell, not projections based on past > experiences > > > and > > > frustration. > > > > > > Govert > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "MKR" > > > > > To: 40yahoogroups.com> > 40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 1:44 PM > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier > > > > > > > Govert: > > > > > > > > There are some built-in problems with a site moderated by Chris. > > > > > > > > He is an officer of TSA and probably he works there as an employee > as > > > > well(someone with info can clarify this). > > > > > > > > So there is going to be a lot of subtle direct and indirect pressure > > put > > > on > > > > him to moderate on posts which may not be in line with official > policy > > > or > > > > official political interests. We will never know because moderation > > > > (censoring) takes place prior to postings. > > > > > > > > Also we have not seen anyone from the organization or closely > > associated > > > > with it, participating in this or other independent forums. Even we > > have > > > > not seen Chris even though he has been around Olcott for some years. > > Why > > > are > > > > they shy or is there an unwritten boycott? (Any clairvoyants, who > can > > > > help!!!!) > > > > > > > > So if anyone wants to read unvarnished opinions and critical > > > information, > > > > this maillist is the place. > > > > > > > > Also timing of the opening of the forum makes me wonder if the > > > > organizational leaders subtly encouraged him to open the forum so > that > > > info > > > > favorable to the organizational leaders or their policies have a > place > > > to > > > > display them to Internet users. This is especially so because of the > > > > continued silence of the Algeo nominators which includes the > President > > > of > > > > TSA, even after the Radha's doctors' certificates were sent to them. > > > > > > > > > > > > mkr > > > > --------------- > > > > Govert W. Schuller wrote: > > > > > > > > P.S.: > > > > > > > > To Ramadoss 4/28: The forum started by Chris Richardson is > > > semi-moderated. > > > > Posting is restricted to 'authors,' but comments are unrestricted, > and > > > it's > > > > mostly in the comments that the real meat is to be found. Chris is a > > > > Theosophist who thinks for himself and his agenda is the improvement > > of > > > the > > > > organizational culture and governance model at the TSA. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mkr777@gmail.com Thu May 01 05:23:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: mkr777@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 86448 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 12:23:56 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.95) by m42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 12:23:56 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO an-out-0708.google.com) (209.85.132.246) by mta16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 12:23:56 -0000 X-Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c35so196608anc.119 for ; Thu, 01 May 2008 05:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.100.151.5 with SMTP id y5mr2792590and.85.1209644635607; Thu, 01 May 2008 05:23:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.100.168.10 with HTTP; Thu, 1 May 2008 05:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 07:23:55 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, theos-L@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 209.85.132.246 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: MKR Subject: Tolerance, respect and goodwill X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=243096636; y=JuJ2SrOwmnTc3v4d04uDxWXZ6gqO5sEN9gIH3gkRFJNKmIA-s0A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43812 Here is an interesting comment I found in cyberspace. Anyone cares to comment? "I'm reproducing something I wrote in the Theosophical Forum.. which is based on tolerance, respect and goodwill (something not frequently found in theos-talk maillist)" mkr [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Thu May 01 06:51:37 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 85133 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 13:51:34 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.96) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 13:51:34 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mx06.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.26) by mta17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 13:51:33 -0000 X-Received: from 56341115.rev.stofanet.dk ([86.52.17.21] helo=khidr) by mx06.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1JrZC8-0005Bv-2Z for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 May 2008 15:51:33 +0200 Message-ID: <001901c8ab92$86d06b80$15113456@khidr> To: Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 15:51:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.26 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:3:4:0:0 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Subject: Papal Intention Focuses on Values-Based Culture X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=VIMY1wTpnSn5hafnQ2eE3NXPr8iDLFJnUhP_qo1y7uyI X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43813 To all readers My views are: The following are a very well written article from Blavatsky.net, and aught to make some of the present day theosophists rethink their activities in life and also how they behave towards society and people the meet in general. A. " Pope muzzles Theologians - and maybe others Once again the Pope of Rome is in the news acting ever more strongly and sweepingly to bring unity to the Catholic Church. However, his actions may hasten that which he aims to forestall. To some, his actions reveal fear, and suggest the time for the undoing of the Church may be coming upon us. The latest events: the June 4, 1998 New York Times ran a frontpage headline "John Paul Moves to Stifle dissent on heated issues - Slap at Church Liberals." Five days later the Times had an article entitled "Pope's Guidance on dissent Provokes New Debate in the U.S." We have included both these articles below. Some of the terminology is technical. Essentially, the Pope has declared that more views of his are now infallible - including controversial positions on women's ordination. He has first of all squelched Theologians. However, it is not clear where he has drawn the line - priests and even lay people may also be affected. He has announced "just punishment" for those who don't shut up. Since infallibility is an underlying issue here we wanted to say some more. Somewhere in her writings we recall Blavatsky pointing out that the doctrine of papal infallibility is only recent having occurred around 1871 (just before she had started her active work). It is so surprising to so many people that the doctrine of infallibility is so recent that we would like to present some detail. The First Vatican Council (1869/70) was convoked to put an end to the spiritual confusion of the 19th century, which affected even Christians, by clarifying the Catholic faith and the Catholic view of the Church. The Syllabus had been the first step. The only constitutions to be promulgated were the Dei Filius, dealing with the relation between faith and knowledge, and Pastor Aeternus, dealing with the extent of papal jurisdiction and doctrinal infallibility. The council ended prematurely with the occupation of the Papal States by Piedmontese troops as a result of the Franco-Prussian War; decrees in preparation on the Church and pastoral questions never reached the voting stage. The definition of the Pope's primacy and infallibility, intended as part of a comprehensive definition of the Church, thus remaind a torso. The primacy question presented the greater difficulty in view of the inherent rights of the diocesan bishops. But widespread alarm was aroused by "infallibility" even before the council opened. yet this definition did not have the unhappy consequences which had been feared. While excluding existing Gallican ideas, it also set limits to extreme ultramontane views; in substance it did not go beyond the traditional doctrinal teachings of the 13th and 16th centuries. The declaration of universal jurisdiction of the Pope, on the other hand, was fraught with far greater cosequences in the intensification of curial centralization. (From Encyclopedia of Theology - the Concise Sacramentum Mundi. A heavily pro-Catholic document. Entry under Council.) In other words, the infallibility of the Pope had not been an official part of Church teaching prior to 1869! When the doctrine was raised for consideration at the council, it caused "widespread alarm"! But it turned out that some extremist positions were not adopted! Another issue at stake in this recent round is the Pope choosing celibacy for the priests - now infallibly. You may be interested to know that as an official doctrine this was first enunciated by Pope Gregory about the year 1000. His motive, clearly known, was to avoid having the church lose financial assets to the wives and family of the priests. Lets put it more directly: it was cheaper for the church if priests did not marry. This was the real life origin of the doctrine that now this Pope has pronounced "infallible". As evidence for this shockingly mundane origin of church policy we quote again from the same Encyclopedia of Theology (Catholic) under the entry for celibacy: A historical factor in the promotion of celibacy in the Middle Ages was the problem which had already exercised minds in the 5th and 6th centuries - the effort to prevent the alienation of Church property, which might otherwise pass into the possession of the priest's family. The apostolic letter expressing these views of the Pope was first offered to the world only in Latin and Italian. A temporary English translation of the letter is here. You will see phrases there that are quite alien to independent thinking. For a refreshing contrast of view, and to close this issue, we quote Blavatsky on education: Children should above all be taught self-reliance, love for all men, altruism, mutual charity, and more than anything else, to think and reason for themselves. ... We should aim at creating free men and women, free intellectually, free morally, unprejudiced in all respects and above all things, unselfish. And we believe that much if not all of this could be obtained by proper and truly theosophical education. (p270-1 Key to Theosophy)" - - - - - - - B. >From the Catholic papers we have The Vatican Council - 1869-1870: C. The Question of Papal Infallibility http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15303a.htm Also here The Vatican Council - 1869-1870 "Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable. So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema. Given at Rome in public session, solemnly held in the Vatican Basilica in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and seventy, on the eighteenth day of July, in the twenty-fifth year of Our Pontificate. In conformity with the original. Joseph, Bishop of St. Polten Secretary to the Vatican Council" http://www.vaxxine.com/pjm/vaticanI.htm - - - - - - - C. Papal Intention Focuses on Values-Based Culture VATICAN CITY, APRIL 29, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI's general prayer intention for May is for a culture that defends and promotes the values of the human person. The Apostleship of Prayer announced the general intention chosen by the Pope, "That Christians may use literature, art and the mass media to greater advantage in order to favor a culture which defends and promotes the values of the human person." The Holy Father also chooses a missionary intention for each month. In May he will pray, "That the Virgin Mary, star of evangelization and queen of the apostles, may still guide today with maternal affection the missionaries, both men and women, throughout the world, just as she accompanied the apostles in the early stages of the Church." M. Sufilight [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bkolad@hotmail.com Thu May 01 07:28:32 2008 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 52734 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 14:28:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.95) by m47.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 14:28:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27b.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (209.131.38.244) by mta16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 14:28:31 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.216] by n27.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 14:28:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by t1.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 14:28:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.88] by t3.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 14:28:31 -0000 X-Sender: bkolad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 20894 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2008 19:05:05 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m54.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2008 19:05:05 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO blu139-omc1-s22.blu139.hotmail.com) (65.55.175.162) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Apr 2008 19:05:05 -0000 X-Received: from BLU110-W35 ([65.55.162.183]) by blu139-omc1-s22.blu139.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:00:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:00:33 -0400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <004901c8ab23$da572b50$0200a8c0@govert> References: <00c101c8aa70$e4433d10$0200a8c0@govert> <004901c8ab23$da572b50$0200a8c0@govert> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Apr 2008 19:00:33.0508 (UTC) FILETIME=[77956240:01C8AAF4] X-Originating-IP: 65.55.175.162 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: kolad beth Subject: RE: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211186001 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 01 May 2008 14:28:31 -0000 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43814 Hi Folks, Actually I'm finding all this talk about elections as rather, wel= l, nauseating. John may be acting with best intentions, but one would never= know it by the comments here. seems to me that those who don't do the work= of actually keeping an organization running, sure don't mind sitting back = and criticizing! B. ________________________________ > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > From: schuller@alpheus.org > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:39:43 -0400 > Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier >=20 >=20 > Dear MKR, >=20 > Just for the record and to dispel some of your hunches. >=20 > Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in his last months of being o= n > the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 terms. I'm sure he'll be back. >=20 > I encouraged him to start this new blog after the relative succes of his > first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at > http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters are still being worked out. >=20 > The underlying motivation comes from a certain exposure to modern > organizational theory and practice and the realization that the TS could > potentialy benefit from studying and applying the new ideas and practices > that have been developed. >=20 > It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to participate in a reflection= on > the TS's own institutional structure, which means its policy-making proce= ss, > its organizational culture, its governance model and concrete policy > proposals. >=20 > He is therefore taking a certain risk and should be recommended for that = and > his actions should not be interpreted with a priori suspicions as you do. > Time and experience will tell, not projections based on past experiences = and > frustration. >=20 > Govert >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "MKR"=20 _________________________________________________________________ Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in= the game. http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=3Dword_slugger_wlhm_admod_april= 08 From write001@theosophy.com Thu May 01 07:34:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: write001@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 97164 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 14:34:01 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.96) by m53.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 14:34:01 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO n47c.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com) (66.163.168.181) by mta17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 14:34:01 -0000 X-Received: from [216.252.122.219] by n47.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 14:34:01 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.69.6] by t4.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 14:34:01 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.66.92] by t6.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 14:34:01 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 14:33:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.163.168.181 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 209.73.164.200 From: "Eldon B Tucker" Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=343826766; y=Xisk57zdNY2-u78gwhyC8hGhJF5e32Dj8B3HSLVFXDI0DTkZ0f_a X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43815 The elections do bring up one important point. Apart from the politics involved, the two candidates would bring differences to how the T.S. would be run. We might consider what those differences are. What would be best for the future of the organization?=20 The question would be less important if members were more active in doing what they thought was best, rather than simply letting those in charge take all the initiative. If most members were highly active doing what they thought was best, the preferences of the leadership would be moot. It's only because people tend to be more passive in nature and let others call the shots that the election seems so important. So what is really important here? Is it that we should pick the right leader of the society or is it that we should already be too busy doing good things for the election to matter much either way? Eldon --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, kolad beth wrote: > >=20 > Hi Folks, Actually I'm finding all this talk about elections as rather, well, nauseating. John may be acting with best intentions, but one would never know it by the comments here. seems to me that those who don't do the work of actually keeping an organization running, sure don't mind sitting back and criticizing! > B. > ________________________________ > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > From: schuller@... > > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:39:43 -0400 > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier > >=20 > >=20 > > Dear MKR, > >=20 > > Just for the record and to dispel some of your hunches. > >=20 > > Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in his last months of being on > > the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 terms. I'm sure he'll be back. > >=20 > > I encouraged him to start this new blog after the relative succes of his > > first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at > > http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters are still being worked out. > >=20 > > The underlying motivation comes from a certain exposure to modern > > organizational theory and practice and the realization that the TS could > > potentialy benefit from studying and applying the new ideas and practices > > that have been developed. > >=20 > > It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to participate in a reflection on > > the TS's own institutional structure, which means its policy-making process, > > its organizational culture, its governance model and concrete policy > > proposals. > >=20 > > He is therefore taking a certain risk and should be recommended for that and > > his actions should not be interpreted with a priori suspicions as you do. > > Time and experience will tell, not projections based on past experiences and > > frustration. > >=20 > > Govert > >=20 > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "MKR"=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. > http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=3Dword_slugger_wlhm_admod_april= 08 > From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Thu May 01 07:39:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 21012 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 14:39:13 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.96) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 14:39:13 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mx06.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.26) by mta17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 14:39:13 -0000 X-Received: from 56341115.rev.stofanet.dk ([86.52.17.21] helo=khidr) by mx06.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1JrZwF-0005T6-2W for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 May 2008 16:39:12 +0200 Message-ID: <003d01c8ab99$2f2af6f0$15113456@khidr> To: Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 16:39:38 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.26 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:3:4:0:0 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Subject: Baptismal exorcism and others Magical arts within the Catholic Church X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=o-bJds9-yCovPoCpAL_wp0Y-6SNvGw6ztlcOL8JZJsE- X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43816 To all readers My views are: Sorcery at the Vatican and the Catholic Church is nothing new. Yet the following from their own accepted website tell you what their views upon the matter is. ===Exorcism=== " ECCLESIASTICAL EXORCISMS Besides exorcism in the strictest sense -- i.e. for driving out demons from the possessed -- Catholic ritual, following early traditions, has retained various other exorcisms, and these also call for notice here. (1) Exorcism of the possessed We have it on the authority of all early writers who refer to the subject at all that in the first centuries not only the clergy, but lay Christians also were able by the power of Christ to deliver demoniacs or energumens, and their success was appealed to by the early Apologists as a strong argument for the Divinity of the Christian religion (Justin Martyr, Apol., 6; P.G., VI, 453; Dial., 30, 85; ibid., 537, 676 sq; Minutius Felix, Octav., 27, P.L., III; Origen, Contra Celsum., I, 25; VII, 4, 67; P.G., XI, 705, 1425, 1516; Tertullian, Apol., 22, 23; P.L., I, 404 sq; etc). As is clear from testimonies referred to, no magical or superstitious means were employed, but in those early centuries, as in later times, a simple and authoritative adjuration addressed to the demon in the name of God, and more especially in the name of Christ crucified, was the usual form of exorcism. But sometimes in addition to words some symbolic action was employed, such as breathing (insufflatio), or laying of hands on the subject, or making the sign of cross. St. Justin speaks of demons flying from "the touch and breathing of Christians" (II Apol., 6) as from a flame that burns them, adds St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Cat., xx, 3, P.G., XXXIII, 1080). Origen mentions the laying of hands, and St. Ambrose (Paulinus, Vit. Ambr., n. 28, 43, P.L, XIV, 36, 42), St. Ephraem Syrus (Greg. Nyss., De Vit. Ephr., P.G., XLVI, 848) and others used this ceremony in exorcising. The sign of the cross, that briefest and simplest way of expressing one's faith in the Crucified and invoking His Divine power, is extolled by many Fathers for its efficacy against all kinds of demoniac molestation (Lactantius, Inst., IV, 27, P.L., VI, 531 sq.; Athanasius, De Incarn. Verbi., n. 47, P.G., XXV, 180; Basil, In Isai., XI, 249, P.G., XXX, 557, Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat., XIII, 3 col. 773; Gregory Nazianzen, Carm. Adv. iram, v, 415 sq.; P.G., XXXVII, 842). The Fathers further recommend that the adjuration and accompanying prayers should be couched in the words of Holy Writ (Cyril of Jerusalem, Procat., n. 9, Col. 350; Athanasius, Ad Marcell., n. 33, P.G., XXVII, 45). The present rite of exorcism as given in the Roman Ritual fully agrees with patristic teaching and is a proof of the continuity of Catholic tradition in this matter. (2) Baptismal exorcism At an early age the practice was introduced into the Church of exorcising catechumens as a preparation for the Sacrament of Baptism. This did not imply that they were considered to be obsessed, like demoniacs, but merely that they were, in consequence of original sin (and of personal sins in case of adults), subject more or less to the power of the devil, whose "works" or "pomps" they were called upon to renounce, and from whose dominion the grace of baptism was about to deliver them. Exorcism in this connection is a symbolical anticipation of one of the chief effects of the sacrament of regeneration; and since it was used in the case of children who had no personal sins, St. Augustine could appeal to it against the Pelagians as implying clearly the doctrine of original sin (Ep. cxciv, n. 46. P.L., XXXIII, 890; C. Jul. III, 8; P.L., XXXIV, 705, and elsewhere). St. Cyril of Jerusalem (Procat., 14, col. 355) gives a detailed description of baptismal exorcism, from which it appears that anointing with exorcised oil formed a part of this exorcism in the East. The only early Western witness which treats unction as part of the baptismal exorcism is that of the Arabic Canons of Hippolytus (n. 19, 29). The Exsufflatio, or out-breathing of the demon by the candidate, which was sometimes part of the ceremony, symbolized the renunciation of his works and pomps, while the Insufflatio, or in-breathing of the Holy Ghost, by ministers and assistants, symbolised the infusion of sanctifying grace by the sacrament. Most of these ancient ceremonies have been retained by the Church to this day in her rite for solemn baptism. (3) Other Exorcisms According to Catholic belief demons or fallen angels retain their natural power, as intelligent beings, of acting on the material universe, and using material objects and directing material forces for their own wicked ends; and this power, which is in itself limited, and is subject, of course, to the control of Divine providence, is believed to have been allowed a wider scope for its activity in the consequence of the sin of mankind. Hence places and things as well as persons are naturally liable to diabolical infestation, within limits permitted by God, and exorcism in regard to them is nothing more that a prayer to God, in the name of His Church, to restrain this diabolical power supernaturally, and a profession of faith in His willingness to do so on behalf of His servants on earth. The chief things formally exorcised in blessing are water, salt, oil, and these in turn are used in personal exorcisms, and in blessing or consecrating places (e.g. churches) and objects (e.g. altars, sacred vessels, church bells) connected with public worship, or intended for private devotion. Holy water, the sacramental with which the ordinary faithful are most familiar, is a mixture of exorcised water and exorcised salt; and in the prayer of blessing, God is besought to endow these material elements with a supernatural power of protecting those who use them with faith against all the attacks of the devil. This kind of indirect exorcism by means of exorcised objects is an extension of the original idea; but it introduces no new principle, and it has been used in the Church from the earliest ages. (See also EXORCIST.) Publication information Written by P.J. Toner. Transcribed by Listya Sari Diyah. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume V. Published 1909. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, May 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor. Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York" http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05709a.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Mvandertak@yahoo.com Thu May 01 07:49:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: mvandertak@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 7879 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 14:49:39 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.96) by m57.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 14:49:39 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO web52611.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.214) by mta17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 14:49:39 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 96500 invoked by uid 60001); 1 May 2008 14:49:39 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 73qwOskVM1lQW.NY.aBFCmk.krN_IBbKdu2zBUpRNxyIDg9757SCRRZ0fDiAH.O1dA-- X-Received: from [82.217.39.103] by web52611.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 May 2008 07:49:38 PDT Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 07:49:38 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <110409.96302.qm@web52611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.214 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: Martin Subject: RE: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38276385; y=LV0Vlt6bXA_S0DSAaGNQVpeidJ8u33nTKqVa5_MUL6p2FK5srg X-Yahoo-Profile: mvandertak X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43817 As long as unworthy people are working at the top of organisations, there is no need for genuine workers to run it. Imagine the catholic church run by the pope and his fist full of cardinals and having Mahatma's in their service? Critize is ok when the criticaster is willing to make change, however when he doesn't get the change the critics will stay, comfortably when sitting back enjoying a pina colada :-) You can't force the buddha to return and run the TS, we have to become buddha ourselves. --- kolad beth wrote: > > Hi Folks, Actually I'm finding all this talk about > elections as rather, well, nauseating. John may be > acting with best intentions, but one would never > know it by the comments here. seems to me that those > who don't do the work of actually keeping an > organization running, sure don't mind sitting back > and criticizing! > B. > ________________________________ > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > From: schuller@alpheus.org > > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:39:43 -0400 > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer > Algeo over Burnier > > > > > > Dear MKR, > > > > Just for the record and to dispel some of your > hunches. > > > > Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in his > last months of being on > > the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 terms. > I'm sure he'll be back. > > > > I encouraged him to start this new blog after the > relative succes of his > > first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at > > http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters are > still being worked out. > > > > The underlying motivation comes from a certain > exposure to modern > > organizational theory and practice and the > realization that the TS could > > potentialy benefit from studying and applying the > new ideas and practices > > that have been developed. > > > > It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to > participate in a reflection on > > the TS's own institutional structure, which means > its policy-making process, > > its organizational culture, its governance model > and concrete policy > > proposals. > > > > He is therefore taking a certain risk and should > be recommended for that and > > his actions should not be interpreted with a > priori suspicions as you do. > > Time and experience will tell, not projections > based on past experiences and > > frustration. > > > > Govert > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "MKR" > _________________________________________________________________ > Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill > meets World Series. Get in the game. > http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Thu May 01 08:09:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 64733 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 15:09:54 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 15:09:54 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO n37d.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com) (66.163.168.191) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 15:09:54 -0000 X-Received: from [216.252.122.218] by n37.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 15:09:54 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.69.6] by t3.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 15:09:54 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.66.90] by t6.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 15:09:54 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 15:09:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <110409.96302.qm@web52611.mail.re2.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.163.168.191 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 209.73.164.226 From: "christinaleestemaker" Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Buddha himself X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756; y=gPxunDCNpdbvlYfnksdhcAvRMKRHRm5kDMeL2MfZ4rPr3TMSQTB01-KFmfjPYd8 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43818 Is it not that Buddha send his power by Wesak? And what if we all are buddha's what shall the light bring us? Than possibly we all are walking or sitting laptops.=20 =20 Christina --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Martin wrote: > > As long as unworthy people are working at the top of > organisations, there is no need for genuine workers to > run it. Imagine the catholic church run by the pope > and his fist full of cardinals and having Mahatma's in > their service? > Critize is ok when the criticaster is willing to make > change, however when he doesn't get the change the > critics will stay, comfortably when sitting back > enjoying a pina colada :-) > You can't force the buddha to return and run the TS, > we have to become buddha ourselves. >=20 >=20 >=20=20 > --- kolad beth wrote: >=20 > >=20 > > Hi Folks, Actually I'm finding all this talk about > > elections as rather, well, nauseating. John may be > > acting with best intentions, but one would never > > know it by the comments here. seems to me that those > > who don't do the work of actually keeping an > > organization running, sure don't mind sitting back > > and criticizing! > > B. > > ________________________________ > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > From: schuller@... > > > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:39:43 -0400 > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer > > Algeo over Burnier > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Dear MKR, > > >=20 > > > Just for the record and to dispel some of your > > hunches. > > >=20 > > > Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in his > > last months of being on > > > the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 terms. > > I'm sure he'll be back. > > >=20 > > > I encouraged him to start this new blog after the > > relative succes of his > > > first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at > > > http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters are > > still being worked out. > > >=20 > > > The underlying motivation comes from a certain > > exposure to modern > > > organizational theory and practice and the > > realization that the TS could > > > potentialy benefit from studying and applying the > > new ideas and practices > > > that have been developed. > > >=20 > > > It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to > > participate in a reflection on > > > the TS's own institutional structure, which means > > its policy-making process, > > > its organizational culture, its governance model > > and concrete policy > > > proposals. > > >=20 > > > He is therefore taking a certain risk and should > > be recommended for that and > > > his actions should not be interpreted with a > > priori suspicions as you do. > > > Time and experience will tell, not projections > > based on past experiences and > > > frustration. > > >=20 > > > Govert > > >=20 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "MKR"=20 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill > > meets World Series. Get in the game. > > > http://club.live.com/ word_slugger.aspx?icid=3Dword_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 ___________________________________________________________________________= _________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and=20 > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http:// mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=3DAhu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > From Mvandertak@yahoo.com Thu May 01 09:12:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: mvandertak@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 94594 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 16:12:24 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.95) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 16:12:24 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.208) by mta16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 16:12:24 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 2223 invoked by uid 60001); 1 May 2008 16:12:24 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: cxIyvB0VM1mwgLZ5dzAOlGj0REXmUBAHqR8Msrbh7MoHppnGZwbMxg6WGSoaPhj9D1urYebvVMPawuWoa8QOoyr4QqDtbVYus5RfUUdARNIKVKfGFiKLWA-- X-Received: from [82.217.39.103] by web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 May 2008 09:12:23 PDT Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 09:12:23 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <981237.1605.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.208 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: Martin Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Buddha himself X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38276385; y=L12mHjZuJUnRQDP4gjiW5_VZXSCEMt83uEG6jdeUTkeYqQ7flA X-Yahoo-Profile: mvandertak X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43819 Buddha, not THE Buddha sends his power 24h/7d. Becoming Buddha we become One again and so become the Light. Sitting or walking has no need then and I have never seen some1 gets a colour by sitting in front of a laptop unless porn was clicked...:-) --- christinaleestemaker wrote: > Is it not that Buddha send his power by Wesak? > > And what if we all are buddha's > what shall the light bring us? > Than possibly we all are walking or sitting laptops. > > > > > Christina > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Martin > wrote: > > > > As long as unworthy people are working at the top > of > > organisations, there is no need for genuine > workers to > > run it. Imagine the catholic church run by the > pope > > and his fist full of cardinals and having > Mahatma's in > > their service? > > Critize is ok when the criticaster is willing to > make > > change, however when he doesn't get the change the > > critics will stay, comfortably when sitting back > > enjoying a pina colada :-) > > You can't force the buddha to return and run the > TS, > > we have to become buddha ourselves. > > > > > > > > --- kolad beth wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Folks, Actually I'm finding all this talk > about > > > elections as rather, well, nauseating. John may > be > > > acting with best intentions, but one would never > > > know it by the comments here. seems to me that > those > > > who don't do the work of actually keeping an > > > organization running, sure don't mind sitting > back > > > and criticizing! > > > B. > > > ________________________________ > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: schuller@... > > > > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:39:43 -0400 > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to > prefer > > > Algeo over Burnier > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear MKR, > > > > > > > > Just for the record and to dispel some of your > > > hunches. > > > > > > > > Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in > his > > > last months of being on > > > > the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 > terms. > > > I'm sure he'll be back. > > > > > > > > I encouraged him to start this new blog after > the > > > relative succes of his > > > > first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at > > > > http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters > are > > > still being worked out. > > > > > > > > The underlying motivation comes from a certain > > > exposure to modern > > > > organizational theory and practice and the > > > realization that the TS could > > > > potentialy benefit from studying and applying > the > > > new ideas and practices > > > > that have been developed. > > > > > > > > It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to > > > participate in a reflection on > > > > the TS's own institutional structure, which > means > > > its policy-making process, > > > > its organizational culture, its governance > model > > > and concrete policy > > > > proposals. > > > > > > > > He is therefore taking a certain risk and > should > > > be recommended for that and > > > > his actions should not be interpreted with a > > > priori suspicions as you do. > > > > Time and experience will tell, not projections > > > based on past experiences and > > > > frustration. > > > > > > > > Govert > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "MKR" > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill > > > meets World Series. Get in the game. > > > > > http://club.live.com/ > word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http:// > mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From anton_rozman@yahoo.com Thu May 01 09:13:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: anton_rozman@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 91885 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 16:13:09 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.95) by m52.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 16:13:09 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 16:13:09 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n21.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 16:13:09 -0000 X-Received: from [66.218.66.77] by t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2008 16:13:09 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 16:13:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.50 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 209.73.164.200 From: "Anton Rozman" Subject: Re: Tolerance, respect and goodwill X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=192242904; y=WN5KTnVJIqEhkHs9vZbHt5mVghjEj78eHSqVsHYEjUEqf97PQ6wP X-Yahoo-Profile: anton_rozman X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43820 Tolerance: - A fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose=20 opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from=20 one's own; freedom from bigotry.=20 - Interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc.,=20 foreign to one's own; a liberal, un-dogmatic viewpoint.=20 - The act or capacity of enduring; endurance.=20 - The capacity to endure hardship or pain. - The power or capacity of an organism to tolerate unfavorable=20 environmental conditions.=20 - A disposition to allow freedom of choice and behavior.=20 - Tolerance, in a social, cultural and religious sense, is the=20 acceptance of other people who hold different and disagreeing=20 beliefs, or otherwise represent ideologies or cultures that have a=20 history of being disrespected. More generally the term is used with=20 regard to behavior that is not mainstream/normal. It seems that in general we understand tolerance as a certain kind of=20 behavior we aspect from others and not as a capacity we should=20 develop in ourselves; a capacity to face statements, views, ideas,=20 behavior which bring us pain and therefore instinctive repulsion;=20 actually a capacity to learn.=20 Anton --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR wrote: > > Here is an interesting comment I found in cyberspace. Anyone cares=20 to > comment? >=20 > "I'm reproducing something I wrote in the Theosophical Forum..=20 which is > based on tolerance, respect and goodwill (something not frequently=20 found in > theos-talk maillist)" >=20 > mkr >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From Mvandertak@yahoo.com Thu May 01 09:21:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: mvandertak@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 39771 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 16:21:48 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 16:21:48 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.204) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 16:21:48 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 98170 invoked by uid 60001); 1 May 2008 16:21:48 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: q6PCHQQVM1mZOja6F4U7xren_xHvAbw9QTVJjdkzWz1dIK2hQ.BCxRzsI4grll.rqRHWNqbxp_Ta4iV7RyyNlmz20_IV1ztQGkjtkMV.5FLApf99sqBbSw-- X-Received: from [82.217.39.103] by web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 May 2008 09:21:48 PDT Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 09:21:48 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <171282.96222.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.204 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: Martin Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Tolerance, respect and goodwill X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38276385; y=UwWSQKV1i-1Wlnk0JX_ZRPlxa4SpAJlT43Cay5sVFyE_dELU0Q X-Yahoo-Profile: mvandertak X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43821 Very well said Anton! Tolerance leads to sympathy and then to empathy. However toll must be paid by the ones with the wrong attitude to Nature... --- Anton Rozman wrote: > Tolerance: > > - A fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward > those whose > opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, > etc., differ from > one's own; freedom from bigotry. > > - Interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, > practices, etc., > foreign to one's own; a liberal, un-dogmatic > viewpoint. > > - The act or capacity of enduring; endurance. > > - The capacity to endure hardship or pain. > > - The power or capacity of an organism to tolerate > unfavorable > environmental conditions. > > - A disposition to allow freedom of choice and > behavior. > > - Tolerance, in a social, cultural and religious > sense, is the > acceptance of other people who hold different and > disagreeing > beliefs, or otherwise represent ideologies or > cultures that have a > history of being disrespected. More generally the > term is used with > regard to behavior that is not mainstream/normal. > > It seems that in general we understand tolerance as > a certain kind of > behavior we aspect from others and not as a capacity > we should > develop in ourselves; a capacity to face statements, > views, ideas, > behavior which bring us pain and therefore > instinctive repulsion; > actually a capacity to learn. > > Anton > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MKR > wrote: > > > > Here is an interesting comment I found in > cyberspace. Anyone cares > to > > comment? > > > > "I'm reproducing something I wrote in the > Theosophical Forum.. > which is > > based on tolerance, respect and goodwill > (something not frequently > found in > > theos-talk maillist)" > > > > mkr > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Thu May 01 09:27:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 42704 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 16:27:14 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 16:27:14 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mx04.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.14) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 16:27:13 -0000 X-Received: from 56341115.rev.stofanet.dk ([86.52.17.21] helo=khidr) by mx04.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1Jrbcm-0006EH-0N for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 May 2008 18:27:12 +0200 Message-ID: <002f01c8aba8$44e0ae90$15113456@khidr> To: References: <981237.1605.qm@web52605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 18:27:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.14 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Buddha himself X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=tI1SQ4xBtDo3A4SBI0KD6I1GmuDoM7dg6UDMiAK3fLPD X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43822 Do'nt worry you will see that one day. I "suffer" under this knowledge every day. :-) M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: Martin To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Buddha himself Buddha, not THE Buddha sends his power 24h/7d. Becoming Buddha we become One again and so become the Light. Sitting or walking has no need then and I have never seen some1 gets a colour by sitting in front of a laptop unless porn was clicked...:-) --- christinaleestemaker wrote: > Is it not that Buddha send his power by Wesak? > > And what if we all are buddha's > what shall the light bring us? > Than possibly we all are walking or sitting laptops. > > > > > Christina > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Martin > wrote: > > > > As long as unworthy people are working at the top > of > > organisations, there is no need for genuine > workers to > > run it. Imagine the catholic church run by the > pope > > and his fist full of cardinals and having > Mahatma's in > > their service? > > Critize is ok when the criticaster is willing to > make > > change, however when he doesn't get the change the > > critics will stay, comfortably when sitting back > > enjoying a pina colada :-) > > You can't force the buddha to return and run the > TS, > > we have to become buddha ourselves. > > > > > > > > --- kolad beth wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Folks, Actually I'm finding all this talk > about > > > elections as rather, well, nauseating. John may > be > > > acting with best intentions, but one would never > > > know it by the comments here. seems to me that > those > > > who don't do the work of actually keeping an > > > organization running, sure don't mind sitting > back > > > and criticizing! > > > B. > > > ________________________________ > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > > From: schuller@... > > > > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:39:43 -0400 > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to > prefer > > > Algeo over Burnier > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear MKR, > > > > > > > > Just for the record and to dispel some of your > > > hunches. > > > > > > > > Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in > his > > > last months of being on > > > > the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 > terms. > > > I'm sure he'll be back. > > > > > > > > I encouraged him to start this new blog after > the > > > relative succes of his > > > > first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at > > > > http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters > are > > > still being worked out. > > > > > > > > The underlying motivation comes from a certain > > > exposure to modern > > > > organizational theory and practice and the > > > realization that the TS could > > > > potentialy benefit from studying and applying > the > > > new ideas and practices > > > > that have been developed. > > > > > > > > It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to > > > participate in a reflection on > > > > the TS's own institutional structure, which > means > > > its policy-making process, > > > > its organizational culture, its governance > model > > > and concrete policy > > > > proposals. > > > > > > > > He is therefore taking a certain risk and > should > > > be recommended for that and > > > > his actions should not be interpreted with a > > > priori suspicions as you do. > > > > Time and experience will tell, not projections > > > based on past experiences and > > > > frustration. > > > > > > > > Govert > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "MKR" > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill > > > meets World Series. Get in the game. > > > > > http://club.live.com/ > word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Be a better friend, newshound, and > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. > http:// > mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu May 01 10:19:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 12338 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 17:19:04 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.94) by m57.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 17:19:04 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 17:19:04 -0000 X-Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.4.) id r.d22.24722cc8 (37168) for ; Thu, 1 May 2008 13:18:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Received: from webmail-me03 (webmail-me03.webmail.aol.com [64.12.88.195]) by cia-ma04.mx.aol.com (v121.5) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMA047-91304819fb4939a; Thu, 01 May 2008 13:18:01 -0400 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 13:18:02 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 76.199.151.243 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MB-Message-Type: User X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 36240-STANDARD X-Received: from 76.199.151.243 by webmail-me03.sysops.aol.com (64.12.88.195) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Thu, 01 May 2008 13:18:02 -0400 Message-Id: <8CA79C67206E61D-14AC-7A6@webmail-me03.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 205.188.144.207 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0:0 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162; y=TsQ2VPlFBSwqynamzGEOGoXQ08h9El0DPe_vW_98GSeGGckMHg X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43823 Perhaps it might be the lesson that, in the end, other than making sure the lawn is mowed and the electricity stays on, the leadership of the TS is pretty irrelevant. Chuck the Heretic http://www.geocities.com/c_cosimano -----Original Message----- From: Eldon B Tucker To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 1 May 2008 9:33 am Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier The elections do bring up one important point. Apart from the politics involved, the two candidates would bring differences to how the T.S. would be run. We might consider what those differences are. What would be best for the future of the organization? The question would be less important if members were more active in doing what they thought was best, rather than simply letting those in charge take all the initiative. If most members were highly active doing what they thought was best, the preferences of the leadership would be moot. It's only because people tend to be more passive in nature and let others call the shots that the election seems so important. So what is really important here? Is it that we should pick the right leader of the society or is it that we should already be too busy doing good things for the election to matter much either way? Eldon --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, kolad beth wrote: > > > Hi Folks, Actually I'm finding all this talk about elections as rather, well, nauseating. John may be acting with best intentions, but one would never know it by the comments here. seems to me that those who don't do the work of actually keeping an organization running, sure don't mind sitting back and criticizing! > B. > ________________________________ > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > From: schuller@... > > Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:39:43 -0400 > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Three Reasons to prefer Algeo over Burnier > > > > > > Dear MKR, > > > > Just for the record and to dispel some of your hunches. > > > > Chris doesn't live or work at Olcott. He is in his last months of being on > > the TSA Board, having served the maximum 2 terms. I'm sure he'll be back. > > > > I encouraged him to start this new blog after the relative succes of his > > first one "Theosphist: Blogs from the Path" at > > http://theosophist.wordpress.com/. Parameters are still being worked out. > > > > The underlying motivation comes from a certain exposure to modern > > organizational theory and practice and the realization that the TS could > > potentialy benefit from studying and applying the new ideas and practices > > that have been developed. > > > > It is a great experiment to facilitate FTS to participate in a reflection on > > the TS's own institutional structure, which means its policy-making process, > > its organizational culture, its governance model and concrete policy > > proposals. > > > > He is therefore taking a certain risk and should be recommended for that and > > his actions should not be interpreted with a priori suspicions as you do. > > Time and experience will tell, not projections based on past experiences and > > frustration. > > > > Govert > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "MKR" > __________________________________________________________ > Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. > http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Augoeides-222@comcast.net Thu May 01 13:14:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: augoeides-222@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 25380 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 20:14:15 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.95) by m49.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 20:14:15 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO QMTA09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net) (76.96.62.96) by mta16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 20:14:15 -0000 X-Received: from OMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.28]) by QMTA09.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id LKsX1Z0070cZkys5901g00; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:11:58 +0000 X-Received: from amailcenter19.comcast.net ([204.127.225.119]) by OMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id LLED1Z00F2bBRH03W00000; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:14:14 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=fjz6ja31_qgA:10 a=mADrmVjjwpwA:10 a=nG4AUVl/d2FqB4X2cmki4A==:17 a=PbZ6trBaAAAA:8 a=OFX-ZFgwAAAA:8 a=CrviWPHOySre8kcFdZoA:9 a=ClWi512R_pZHvGqerWoA:7 a=-82ph_7mWhHJDJy2mN38LS_J-yAA:4 a=N_UF4_gCkzQA:10 a=acJS7FmlnncA:10 a=DFZ4TeuG6JwA:10 a=vZ5s7cKhAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=G_5s8neSAAAA:8 a=cHvEE2dpi4ffc1iakrkA:7 a=TaSccuzgzBEOkizSoAnAfkK_oFwA:4 a=l1KeHmMDpNIA:10 a=5q3Wm2RiqggA:10 a=ao4RW71Vw8YA:10 a=37WNUvjkh6kA:10 X-Received: from [67.172.124.83] by amailcenter19.comcast.net; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:14:13 +0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 20:14:13 +0000 Message-Id: <050120082014.18855.481A24950000CCE6000049A72212059214CDCDCDD39C0A0B070A01099ABE@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Oct 30 2007) X-Authenticated-Sender: QXVnb2VpZGVzLTIyMkBjb21jYXN0Lm5ldA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 76.96.62.96 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0:0 From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net Subject: Re: Theos-World Papal Intention Focuses on Values-Based Culture X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=314500470; y=sbn_VOeRN7IovQ8AVcW8owa1UXTA6-uE8rSScVTMezrqOfhWnUyinrIaZxcshd0W X-Yahoo-Profile: sessesgenbarpharanges Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 43824 To all readers, My views are: THE POPE IS MILK TOAST COMPARED TO THE AYATOLLAH! John -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" To all readers My views are: The following are a very well written article from Blavatsky.net, and aught to make some of the present day theosophists rethink their activities in life and also how they behave towards society and people the meet in general. A. " Pope muzzles Theologians - and maybe others Once again the Pope of Rome is in the news acting ever more strongly and sweepingly to bring unity to the Catholic Church. However, his actions may hasten that which he aims to forestall. To some, his actions reveal fear, and suggest the time for the undoing of the Church may be coming upon us. The latest events: the June 4, 1998 New York Times ran a frontpage headline "John Paul Moves to Stifle dissent on heated issues - Slap at Church Liberals." Five days later the Times had an article entitled "Pope's Guidance on dissent Provokes New Debate in the U.S." We have included both these articles below. Some of the terminology is technical. Essentially, the Pope has declared that more views of his are now infallible - including controversial positions on women's ordination. He has first of all squelched Theologians. However, it is not clear where he has drawn the line - priests and even lay people may also be affected. He has announced "just punishment" for those who don't shut up. Since infallibility is an underlying issue here we wanted to say some more. Somewhere in her writings we recall Blavatsky pointing out that the doctrine of papal infallibility is only recent having occurred around 1871 (just before she had started her active work). It is so surprising to so many people that the doctrine of infallibility is so recent that we would like to present some detail. The First Vatican Council (1869/70) was convoked to put an end to the spiritual confusion of the 19th century, which affected even Christians, by clarifying the Catholic faith and the Catholic view of the Church. The Syllabus had been the first step. The only constitutions to be promulgated were the Dei Filius, dealing with the relation between faith and knowledge, and Pastor Aeternus, dealing with the extent of papal jurisdiction and doctrinal infallibility. The council ended prematurely with the occupation of the Papal States by Piedmontese troops as a result of the Franco-Prussian War; decrees in preparation on the Church and pastoral questions never reached the voting stage. The definition of the Pope's primacy and infallibility, intended as part of a comprehensive definition of the Church, thus remaind a torso. The primacy question presented the greater difficulty in view of the inherent rights of the diocesan bishops. But widespread alarm was aroused by "infallibility" even b efore the council opened. yet this definition did not have the unhappy consequences which had been feared. While excluding existing Gallican ideas, it also set limits to extreme ultramontane views; in substance it did not go beyond the traditional doctrinal teachings of the 13th and 16th centuries. The declaration of universal jurisdiction of the Pope, on the other hand, was fraught with far greater cosequences in the intensification of curial centralization. (From Encyclopedia of Theology - the Concise Sacramentum Mundi. A heavily pro-Catholic document. Entry under Council.) In other words, the infallibility of the Pope had not been an official part of Church teaching prior to 1869! When the doctrine was raised for consideration at the council, it caused "widespread alarm"! But it turned out that some extremist positions were not adopted! Another issue at stake in this recent round is the Pope choosing celibacy for the priests - now infallibly. You may be interested to know that as an official doctrine this was first enunciated by Pope Gregory about the year 1000. His motive, clearly known, was to avoid having the church lose financial assets to the wives and family of the priests. Lets put it more directly: it was cheaper for the church if priests did not marry. This was the real life origin of the doctrine that now this Pope has pronounced "infallible". As evidence for this shockingly mundane origin of church policy we quote again from the same Encyclopedia of Theology (Catholic) under the entry for celibacy: A historical factor in the promotion of celibacy in the Middle Ages was the problem which had already exercised minds in the 5th and 6th centuries - the effort to prevent the alienation of Church property, which might otherwise pass into the possession of the priest's family. The apostolic letter expressing these views of the Pope was first offered to the world only in Latin and Italian. A temporary English translation of the letter is here. You will see phrases there that are quite alien to independent thinking. For a refreshing contrast of view, and to close this issue, we quote Blavatsky on education: Children should above all be taught self-reliance, love for all men, altruism, mutual charity, and more than anything else, to think and reason for themselves. ... We should aim at creating free men and women, free intellectually, free morally, unprejudiced in all respects and above all things, unselfish. And we believe that much if not all of this could be obtained by proper and truly theosophical education. (p270-1 Key to Theosophy)" - - - - - - - B. >From the Catholic papers we have The Vatican Council - 1869-1870: C. The Question of Papal Infallibility http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15303a.htm Also here The Vatican Council - 1869-1870 "Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable. So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema. Given at Rome in public session, solemnly held in the Vatican Basilica in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and seventy, on the eighteenth day of July, in the twenty-fifth year of Our Pontificate. In conformity with the original. Joseph, Bishop of St. Polten Secretary to the Vatican Council" http://www.vaxxine.com/pjm/vaticanI.htm - - - - - - - C. Papal Intention Focuses on Values-Based Culture VATICAN CITY, APRIL 29, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI's general prayer intention for May is for a culture that defends and promotes the values of the human person. The Apostleship of Prayer announced the general intention chosen by the Pope, "That Christians may use literature, art and the mass media to greater advantage in order to favor a culture which defends and promotes the values of the human person." The Holy Father also chooses a missionary intention for each month. In May he will pray, "That the Virgin Mary, star of evangelization and queen of the apostles, may still guide today with maternal affection the missionaries, both men and women, throughout the world, just as she accompanied the apostles in the early stages of the Church." M. Sufilight [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Augoeides-222@comcast.net Thu May 01 13:21:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Sender: augoeides-222@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 32312 invoked from network); 1 May 2008 20:21:24 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (66.218.67.95) by m42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2008 20:21:24 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net) (76.96.62.80) by mta16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2008 20:21:23 -0000 X-Received: from OMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.28]) by QMTA08.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id LKsp1Z0010cZkys5804900; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:21:17 +0000 X-Received: from amailcenter19.comcast.net ([204.127.225.119]) by OMTA10.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id LLME1Z00L2bBRH03W00000; Thu, 01 May 2008 20:21:14 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=yOLugd48FtYA:10 a=EtBuqBCuRpUA:10 a=nG4AUVl/d2FqB4X2cmki4A==:17 a=Nh1I2Z8dAAAA:8 a=HqhU5Q3nAAAA:8 a=Zk3OmFfbAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3