From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Apr 01 10:35:18 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77324 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2007 17:35:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.68) by m50.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2007 17:35:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.135) by mta11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2007 17:35:14 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.218] by n20.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 17:35:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by t3.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 17:35:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.92] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 17:35:04 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 17:35:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.135 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.31.93 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: After Death States & Processes as given by Master KH X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=KwA8PSKItX8QqgJWnSV9wxAilbcHjiIBopnWGM6XmEYVH6sD_zh-skPU X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40377 After Death States & Processes=20 as given by Master Koot Hoomi See diagram by Geoffrey Farthing showing teachings given by Master KH on After Death States and Processes at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/mon/WhenWeDieB.gif Below I give a link to a diagram giving one Christian version of what happens after death: http://www.bible.ca/hades-lk-16-simple.gif It is interesting to compare the two diagrams for similarities and differences. Any comments? Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Apr 01 10:45:11 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 635 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2007 17:45:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.70) by m46.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2007 17:45:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.52) by mta12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2007 17:45:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n23.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 17:45:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.74] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 17:43:16 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 17:43:15 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.52 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.31.93 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: As a Butterfly in Its Chrysalis X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=FKnqfrXAW-Pr-l3J3IefgadOWZV_mzyVFHunsSFyFpTzWebDYFW5CADy X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40378 As a Butterfly in Its Chrysalis See this diagram at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/mon/monwwdie.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Apr 01 11:53:07 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7106 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2007 18:53:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m47.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2007 18:53:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7b.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.166) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2007 18:53:07 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.219] by n7.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 18:52:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by t4.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 18:52:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.85] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 18:52:13 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 18:52:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.166 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.31.93 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Life After Death in Kamaloka (the Astral World): HPB versus CWL X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=kHjP4qI8LhVeC0jIoL17B5DZnbFBXHlxwvqrxdBm07LDCk6xS7fvlTDJ X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40379 Life After Death in Kamaloka (the Astral World): H.P. Blavatsky versus C.W. Leadbeater "The original statements in the Theosophical Society regarding the=20 after death processes were given in Letters of the Mahatmas to A.P.=20 Sinnett. . . . One must, however, note that a different description=20 of the after death process appears in some works by theosophical=20 writers. One such exponent was C.W. Leadbeater, a notable=20 clairvoyant, who recorded what he saw of after death=20 conditions. . . . This [Leadbeater's version] would seem to be at=20 variance with the original teaching."=20=20=20 ". . . the accounts of after-death conditions in her [Blavatsky's]=20 own direct writings and in the Mahatma Letters clash very=20 emphatically not only with what Bishop Leadbeater and other members=20 of the [Adyar Theosophical] Society later described, but also with=20 descriptions given by psychics quite unconnected with the Society."=20 Read more of the article (from which the above quotes have been=20 extracted) at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/morganafterdeath.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Apr 01 12:01:52 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 23469 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2007 19:01:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2007 19:01:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11b.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.107) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2007 19:01:44 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.216] by n11.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 19:01:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by t1.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 19:01:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.77] by t3.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 19:01:43 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 19:01:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.107 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.31.93 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: What are Shells and Elementaries? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=rR-3L_XpMIzl76PCV03cwan41CiDeXzbfXO8yZU-M_Cf-B4vf7tuMNHI X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40380 "Elementaries....spooks or phantoms of disembodied persons, in general,=20 to those whose temporary habitation is the K=E2ma Loka....Once divorced=20 from their higher triads and their bodies, these souls remain in their=20 K=E2ma-rupic envelopes, and are irresistibly drawn to the earth amid=20 elements congenial to their gross natures. Their stay in the K=E2ma Loka=20 varies as to its duration; but ends invariably in disintegration,=20 dissolving like a column of mist, atom by atom, in the surrounding=20 elements." H.P. Blavatsky, The Theosophical Glossary. "Shells. A Kabbalistic name for the phantoms of the dead, the 'spirits'=20 of the Spiritualists, figuring in physical phenomena; so named on=20 account of their being simply illusive forms, empty of their higher=20 principles." H.P. Blavatsky, The Theosophical Glossary Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Apr 01 12:08:07 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61239 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2007 19:08:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2007 19:08:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n32c.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.10) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2007 19:08:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n32.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 19:07:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.80] by t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 19:07:53 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2007 19:07:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.10 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.31.93 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Psychic Husks & Surviving Personality Constellations X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=xI-pm_VKM3uuZwzuQpLTRInw66l6RN0Blfx_o1-GyWxB-D-IVYHK0mmp X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40381 In his 1976 book Death and Eternal Life, John Hick proposed=20 the "psychic husk" theory to explain Ian Stevenson's cases of=20 children who claim to remember their previous lives:=20 "....Stevenson himself discusses several different hypotheses, other=20 than reincarnation, each of which may apply to one or more of his own=20 twenty cases, though he does not think that they can between them=20 convincingly cover all of them. I should like to add one more to the=20 list of possible non-reincarnationist explanations, making use of the=20 psychic factor theory mentioned in chapter 7. This is the theory that=20 after bodily death a mental 'husk' or 'mask' of the deceased person=20 is left behind and is telepathically accessible under certain=20 conditions to living persons. Such a 'husk' may consist of mere=20 fragments of memory, emotion, habit =96 analogous to isolated pieces of=20 a tape-recording =96 or of a relatively coherent and cohensive body of=20=20 such elements and may . . . become linked to the mind of a medium=20=20 when in trance and be presented under the dramatic guise of a=20=20 visitor from the spirit world. This hypothesis can be extended to=20 cover the comparatively rare cases of an individual 'remembering' a=20 supposed previous identity and life. It may be that he (or she) is=20 telepathically sensitive in the same sort of way as a medium, and is=20 being influenced by the psychic 'husk' of some deceased person and=20 identifying himself with this."=20 "It is perhaps worth noting, as consistent with this possibility,=20=20 that in most, or perhaps all, of the more impressive cases of=20=20 reported memories of former lives =96 including all of Ian Stevenson's=20 twenty selected cases =96 the remembered life was the most recent one,=20 with a gap of no more than a few years between its end and the=20 beginning of the reported memories. Likewise the 'spirits' who=20 communicate through mediums have usually only fairly recently died.=20 The recency of the material in each case might be expected if the=20 phenomena have a common origin in persisting psychic traces=20 or 'husks' which presumably gradually fade or decay with the passage=20 of time." Death and Eternal Life, p. 376.=20=20 And in 1985, D. Scott Rogo, a prolific writer on parapsychological=20 subjects, published a book on reincarnation (The Search for=20 Yesterday: A Critical Examination of the Evidence for Reincarnation)=20 in which he gave the following "explanatory model" to explain=20 Stevenson's "apparent" cases of reincarnation: "I believe that the human personality survives death, but this is not=20 the same as positing the existence of an immortal soul. But just=20 what is this 'personality' that survives? We cannot really speak=20 about personality without also speaking about our memory, for=20 personality is simply the sum of our memories and our behavioral=20 dispositions. So what really survives death is a personalized=20 network of memories. It is a moot point whether any spark of=20 divinity (a 'soul') lies within this network. It probably retains=20 its individuality and consciousness. During our lives after death=20 we would probably be linked to our deceased relatives and friends in=20 a huge interpersonal matrix. In time, we shed our individuality and=20 merge totally into this more impersonal field, thereby experiencing a=20 blissful annihilation." "This general conception of the afterlife ties in mutually with the=20 whole concept of reincarnation. A developing embryo can become=20 linked with one or more of these surviving personality=20 constellations...."=20=20 "Either the craving of the constellation for existence drives it to=20 attach itself to a new life, or the developing consciousness [of the=20 embryo] latches onto one or more of these personalities of its own=20 accord. A case of the former might express itself in those=20 [reincarnation] cases that look like 'possession,' in which the=20 personality of the living person will temporarily transform into that=20 of the donor. We saw this process at work in the case of Uttara=20 Huddar [The Search for Yesterday, pp. 150-155], and to a lesser=20 degree during the strange trances to which Kumkum Verma [The Search=20 for Yesterday, pp. 49-51] was prone. The outcome of the second=20 process might be a more passive expression, in which the child merely=20 assimilates some of the memories of the donor [deceased] personality." "This linkage is not really reincarnation, since the developing life=20 is only tapping the resources of the donor personality's surviving=20 memories and dispositions. The infant's own spiritual essence is not=20 being taken over by, or emerging from, the donor in any real sense.=20=20 So we might sum this all up by saying that at birth, an infant is=20 complete with its own burgeoning personality. But it is born with a=20 psychic heritage based on its prenatal contact with 'the dead'." "This theory can account for birthmark cases as well as for the=20 emergence of past-life memories and phobias. Because an unborn child=20 has few psychological resources of its own, any surviving personality=20 constellation with which it comes in contact is bound to exert a=20 strong influence."=20=20 "This general framework also helps explain why so many 'reincarnated'=20 children recall violent past-life deaths. It may be that people who=20 die violently shed particularly dynamic or tightly integrated memory=20 constellations. They might especially strive for existence and might=20 more readily attach themselves to a newly developing life or hold out=20 a greater attraction to the developing infant." "It is likely that we all harbor memories of our psychic heritage=20 deep within our subconscious minds. It is not unthinkable that we=20 can make contact with memory traces left by these links by digging=20 deeply into the subconscious.This is why such [memory] traces would=20 tend to emerge during hypnosis, as a result of an LSD session, or=20 during intensive psychotherapy. Any procedure that temporarily=20 places the conscious mind in abeyance could allow these memory traces=20 to surface or to be tapped. If the traces left by these prenatal=20 psychic contacts are able to form into a subsystem within the living=20 person's mind, he or she would be endowed with some amazing=20 abilities. He or she might be able to speak a foreign language never=20 learned or display precocious artistic and mechanistic skills and=20 other talents." "So, in conclusion, do I 'believe' in reincarnation? Based on the=20 evidence [examined in my book], I suppose that I should say that I=20 do: but not in reincarnation of the soul, but in the fact that=20 certain apparently vanished memories and traits of [a deceased]=20 personality can actually be born again [in another living human=20 being.]" Abridged and collated from The Search for Yesterday, pp.=20 215-218.=20 Daniel http://hpb.cc From davidbeamish_25@yahoo.com Sun Apr 01 12:09:50 2007 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 63375 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2007 19:09:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m47.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2007 19:09:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.108) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2007 19:09:50 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.218] by n11.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 19:08:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by t3.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 19:08:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.89] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2007 19:08:31 -0000 X-Sender: davidbeamish_25@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91505 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2007 20:13:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.70) by m50.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Mar 2007 20:13:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.108) by mta12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Mar 2007 20:13:17 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n11.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Mar 2007 20:13:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Mar 2007 20:13:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.76] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Mar 2007 20:13:12 -0000 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 20:13:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.108 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 216.191.72.153 From: "davidbeamish_25" Subject: Theos-World Re: Occultic Moon Landings and limits of astral X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=303378051; y=ko1fzmGNndyUqS_r3QJuFUJjTCNIERRPkYAXaa0sSNlpJFvC_1fzHj1q X-Yahoo-Profile: davidbeamish_25 X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 01 Apr 2007 19:08:29 -0000 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40382 Thank you all for some interesting responses.=20=20 I am a little confused still over whether space travel would be possible for mankind at this present stage of development.=20 I'm trying to find out more information through bringing these questions of mine into my sleep. The astal of the moon: will it cause man to drop out of his material body?=20=20 David=20 From samblo@cs.com Sun Apr 01 12:44:16 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76941 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2007 19:44:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m37a.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2007 19:44:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m20.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.1) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2007 19:44:16 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.10.) id r.bd7.11890364 (33856) for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2007 15:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 15:41:56 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.1 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World After Death States & Processes as given by Master KH X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40383 Daniel, Thanks. This is off the topic but I want to ask what can find the Blavatsky said about "Bee's." Right now we are in a catastrophic state in regard to Bee's, the critical link in our food chain. Here and in Europe terrible losses are taking place. Spain has lost up to 36 Billion Bee's and Poland up to 24 Billion. Here in the US more than 25 States are reporting losses up to 70% of the Hives. No one knows why or where the Bee's went to. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Sun Apr 01 12:54:34 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 3224 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2007 19:54:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2007 19:54:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2007 19:54:34 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.10.) id r.c2f.1240ab37 (33856) for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2007 15:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 15:53:46 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.5 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World As a Butterfly in Its Chrysalis X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40384 Daniel, Thanks, very nice. I somewhere have the origination given through an Experiencer I worked many years with that he was given by the "Vessel of Light." It was a multi piece poem about the Caterpillar and the Butterfly. You page reminds of it from 1977. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com.br Sun Apr 01 13:53:56 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44101 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2007 20:53:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2007 20:53:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-8.brturbo.com.br) (200.226.190.2) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2007 20:53:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 19414 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2007 20:18:24 -0000 Received: from 200-138-209-103.jvece7005.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (HELO SUPERCORDE) (none@[200.138.209.103]) (envelope-sender ) by 10.64.250.66 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 1 Apr 2007 20:18:22 -0000 Message-ID: <003001c7749c$1af32110$0501010a@SUPERCORDE> To: References: Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 17:26:49 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Disposition-Notification-To: "krishtar" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-iGspam-global: Yes, spamicity=1.000000 - pe=1.00e-00 - pf=1.000000 - pg=1 X-Originating-IP: 200.226.190.2 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Homosexuality X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=213301758; y=DU34VIul9QAK4p0zOkEfjDUyff0UBD3-k3DqgGOX4t9G4P2NTw X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40385 Hello Friend and all. I wish I could say my view on the subject. I agree with you Perry. It=B4s a very delicate matter. Just enlarging the subject, imho, the more you are attached to sexuality as= much as all the animal processes the less the person can - if we can thus= consider something - be considered higher in a "spirituality status" Why? I see it not like a prejudiced measurement, but when a soul starts the spir= itual path, the first things that he will deal with are the attachments, th= e passions and all the processes that links him to the animal the stinctive= side, these are all attachments. An evolving soul that has reached the spiritual path will naturally dettach= from all the things that pulls him to the opposite side of spirituality. Soul cannot unify Itself with the higher Self while It keeps lower desires = as all the animal forces such as infactuation, gluttony...etc and all kinds= of exaggerations or fondnesses. Sexuality has nothing of human, it=B4s organic and animal. As long as we are not prepared to live behind all material knowledge, desir= es and intelectuality and have an only desire of being impregnated with the= divine awareness, we=B4ll be still linked to Samsara, to the jorney of liv= e and die until we are awakened in a later moment. So, many may say that if, for example, one gives sex a very high status in = life, or a sex with the same genre, can not acquire a high spiritual statu= s. Because these are also attachments. And that can be continued from one life to another untill soul has reached = a point that is awakened. I gess that=B4s true. But there is nothing preventing a homossexual of attaining enlightenment in= a later life, in which all the sexual needs with are extinguished. The karma law, the prarabdhakarma is very pacient but unfalible. What I also mean that I think that there are many facts that delays human e= volving to spirituality, sexuality and homossexuality, lack of compassion, = hate, are just examples. Sex has to do with kundalini and there are many sources about the misusage = of this force in literature. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: plcoles1=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 10:07 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: Homosexuality How can we even pretend to be able to measure something like the=20 spiritual status of someone based purely on their sexual orientation. It seems to me the height of arrogance to imply that homosexuals are=20 inferior as spiritual beings and that being a heterosexual makes us=20 somehow superior. Nature's processes are not always immediately apparent or known by us. Theosophy teaches Compassion and loving all beings, so did the Buddha. Perry=20 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bhikshuni Ariya=20 wrote: > > BUDDHA REFUSED HOMOSEXUALS. >=20 > SO DO I. >=20 > Konstantin Zaitzev wrote: > Dear David, >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "davidbeamish_25" wrote: >=20 > > How great a sin is homosexuality according to Theosophy? >=20 > I think that there's no sin according to theosophy but there's non- > constructive waste of energy. >=20 > > Is it worse than murder in terms of karma? >=20 > Surely not. >=20 > > Is homosexual action in lust different than a heterosexual action=20 in > > lust? >=20 > Probably somewhat different, for a "heterosexual action in lust" is=20 > just a step down on a scale of nature, yet quite natural as a=20 > heritage of an animal kingdom. From the other hand some say that=20 > homosexuality has its origins in sexual overstimulation during 3rd=20 > root race, or even in the Moon Chain. >=20 > > Is it true that a homosexual cannot ever move into the 6'th root > > race, >=20 > I think that the personality is homosexual, not the Higher Self;=20 but=20 > it's the latter moves into 6th root-race, not the personality. > (Some say that there could be such trivial reasons for=20 homosexuality=20 > as being woman in the last incarnation). > Moreover, there are still many centuries AT LEAST before=20 inauguration=20 > of the 6th race, so there are many incarnations before all of us to=20 > make ourselves fit to 6th race till it will really come. >=20 > There were one or two homosexuals in this list; maybe they shall=20 give=20 > more qualified answers. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------- > Here's a new way to find what you're looking for - Yahoo! Answers=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > =20=20=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.24/741 - Release Date: 3/31/aaa= a 20:54 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Mon Apr 02 02:01:30 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92066 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2007 09:00:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.68) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2007 09:00:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2007 09:00:57 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n17.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2007 09:00:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2007 09:00:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:00:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.46 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.165 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Theos-World Re: Occultic Moon Landings and limits of astral X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=QX8jmEKEQVZbQmbK-nBn4Um-zjUJowdc8e39IbSJcBNrmGQl X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40386 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "davidbeamish_25" wrote: > The astal of the moon: will it > cause man to drop out of his material body?=20=20 I think no, the question is only with astral plane of the=20 interplanetary space which is not so "thick". Yet this is a question=20 which only an experiment can solve. It is possible that an attraction of the astral body to its physical=20 counterpart will be strong enough to keep connection in any=20 conditions, even in the outer space. We can consider a similar example of those people who lost connection=20 with their higher selves, so their personalities (or rather kama- rupas) are destined to go to the 8th sphere. Yet if the body still=20 exists, it forms stronger attraction center than 8th sphere, ant=20 that's why still in the bode man has the chanses to reunite with his=20 higher self, and that's why vampires regard keeping their physical=20 body important. From plcoles1@yahoo.com.au Mon Apr 02 21:16:42 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: plcoles1@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10299 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 04:16:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 04:16:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.215) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 04:16:42 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n18.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 04:14:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 04:14:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.88] by t3.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 04:14:52 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 04:14:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.215 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 139.230.245.21 From: "plcoles1" Subject: Re: Jehovah Witnesses & Mahatma KH/HPB on Body/Soul/Spirit/Life after Death X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=237271074; y=2xOxYoNp7MAvvGilYsUAyP-ITw4ioX6oTZnRkYms2BZcHSw X-Yahoo-Profile: plcoles1 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40387 Hi Daniel, The Jehovah's Witnesses teachings on life after death are basically=20 that there is no soul of any kind that survives death except for an=20 elect 144,000 who will rule in heaven with Christ during the 1000=20 years after Armageddon. Even then its not that they actually have a soul but the belief is=20 that after these 144,000 die or when Christ returns they will change=20 into spiritual beings. As for the rest of us ie. those not of the elite 144,000 we will=20 either be destroyed by Yahwey at Armageddon or if good live forever=20 in a perfect physical body on Earth and never die. The interpretations on Nephesh and Psyche they have are very over=20 simplified when compared to the esoteric philosophy and more=20 scholarly interpretations. They do speak of Nephesh as being the "life force" which is shared by=20 animals and humans however this is completely impersonal they use=20 the analogy of electricity but it no distinct qualities and there are=20 no subtleties of description or philosophical analysis with the=20 Jehovah's Witnesses its just a dead letter dogmatic interpretation=20 that fits their theology. I suppose you could make some very broad and loose comparisons with=20 the Jehovah's Witnesses dogmas but the differences are vast both in=20 terms of process and content. Ultimately to them you are a body and brain with some kind of vague=20 reference to a sort of spirit electricity that runs through it while=20 you are alive , when you die there is nothing left of your=20 individuality at all, you are just dust and that's it. There is no divine spark at all in their teachings. Regards Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell"=20 wrote: > > Jehovah Witnesses & Mahatma KH/HPB > on Body/Soul/Spirit & Life after Death >=20 > Some 37 years ago when I discovered the > Mahatma Letters & HPB's writings, I noticed > some interesting SIMILARITIES between the > teachings in the letters of Master K.H. and > HPB's ISIS UNVEILED and the teachings of > the Jehovah Witnesses and the Seventh-Day > Adventist on soul and spirit, life after death, etc. >=20 > At that time I also was studying a book titled: >=20 > The four major cults: > Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Seventh-Day > Adventism. > by Anthony A Hoekema > 1963 > English Book xiv, 447 p. 24 cm. > Grand Rapids, Eerdmans >=20 > I also remember taking a copy of the Jehovah > Witnessses' IS THERE LIFE > AFTER DEATH? and underlining the similarities > with those in the Mahatma Letters. >=20 > I believe the small book IS THERE LIFE AFTER DEATH? > is the correct title. The printing I usually > used or saw was bound in green. >=20 > I'm wondering if any of the Theos-Talk readers > (maybe Perry???) has also seen and pondered > on these similarities. [Yes, I know there > are differences, too!] >=20 > In Isis Unveiled, the Mahatma Letters, > and The Secret Doctrine, what terms are > used that would be equivalent to the > FOLLOWING terms as found in the Old and New > Testaments? >=20 > neshamah, nephesh, ruach >=20 > sheol >=20 > soma, psyche, pneuma >=20 > hades, gehenna >=20 > demons, devils >=20 > Also what theosophical ideas > illuminate the following questions > discussed by Christians?? >=20 > Are human beings conscious after > death and/or tormented in hell? >=20 > Is there a Resurrection of the dead? >=20 > What is the second death? >=20 > What does the "The Return of Christ" mean? >=20 > I include here my butterfly illustrations I > posted once on Theos-Talk: >=20 > As a Butterfly in Its Chrysalis > http://blavatskyarchives.com/mon/monwwdie.htm >=20 > Once Awakened from Their Post-mortem Torpor . . . . > http://blavatskyarchives.com/mon/revivingf.htm >=20 > Some useful background reading that might be > helpful is below: >=20 > DEATH, SOUL AND HELL > http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_death_soul_hell_menu.htm >=20 > THE BIBLICAL VIEW OF HUMAN NATURE > http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_biblical_view_human_nature_1.htm >=20 > THE BIBLICAL VIEW OF DEATH > http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_biblical_view_of_death_2.htm >=20 > Two Basic Views of Human Nature and Destiny > http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_two_views_human_nature.htm >=20 > The Doctrine of the Immortal Soul > http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_doctrine_of_immortal_soul.htm >=20 > Origins of the Word 'Hell' > http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_origins_of_the_word_hell.htm >=20 > HADES > http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_hades.htm >=20 > THE GRAVE > http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_the_grave.htm >=20 > Do YOU Have an IMMORTAL SOUL? > http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_immortal_soul.htm >=20 > THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF HELL > http://www.heavendwellers.com/origen_and_history_of_hell.htm >=20 >=20 > See also: >=20 > Neshamah > http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=3D05397 >=20 > Ruach > http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=3D07307 >=20 > Nephesh > http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=3D05315 >=20 > Pneuma > http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3D4151 >=20 >=20 > Daniel > http://blavatskystudycenter.org > From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Tue Apr 03 03:17:21 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57760 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 10:17:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.68) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 10:17:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.184) by mta11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 10:17:16 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n4.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 10:16:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 10:16:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.74] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 10:16:54 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:16:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.184 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.165 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Jehovah Witnesses & Mahatma KH/HPB on Body/Soul/Spirit/Life after Death X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=fI5g7xbOTQOnxlxnyN7QtgsczD-cZ9tlNeQmh9_BYNjfjujD X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40388 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "plcoles1" wrote: > The Jehovah's Witnesses teachings on life after death are basically=20 > that there is no soul of any kind that survives death except for an=20 Yes. Even the rightheous ones, according to them, shall be=20 miraculously resurrected at the day of Judgement, but will have no=20 intervening existence as souls, in heaven or elsewhere. > The interpretations on Nephesh and Psyche they have are very over=20 > simplified when compared to the esoteric philosophy and more=20 If I remember correctly, they speculate on words like nephesh in=20 order to prove that there's no soul, and where such words which are=20 translated as "soul" are mentioned in the Bible, they mean just=20 something like "blood" and "vitality". > There is no divine spark at all in their teachings. Agreed. I think there can be hardly found a teaching more far removed=20 from theosophy than that. From anton_rozman@yahoo.com Tue Apr 03 04:20:07 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: anton_rozman@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62932 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 11:20:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 11:20:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19a.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.48) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 11:19:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n19.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 11:19:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.92] by t6.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 11:19:40 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:19:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.48 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 82.192.56.78 From: "Anton Rozman" Subject: Old Diary Leaves online X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=192242904; y=1SJAHreJmDmfqjFMro-vOOZDiQSaAWGyZHsNzk_JAwB9UevY9g6K X-Yahoo-Profile: anton_rozman X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40389 Dear friends, H. S. Olcott's "Old Diary Leaves" are now online - published by the=20 Philippine TS - please see: http://www.theosophy.ph/onlinebooks.html Warmest regards, Anton From Sven04@comhem.se Tue Apr 03 07:28:16 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: Sven04@comhem.se X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42210 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 14:28:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m49.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 14:28:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net) (80.76.149.213) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 14:28:15 -0000 Received: from c83-253-204-241.bredband.comhem.se ([83.253.204.241]:1069 helo=sveinn-fp1krz97.comhem.se) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HYjfn-0006il-8g for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:07:48 +0200 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 16:07:16 +0200 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: X-Authenticated: u13406688@ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 4fdd1a6bcb059fc2e1ba0aafad29ffc2 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1HYjfn-0006il-8g. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1HYjfn-0006il-8g 55de84b2a55ab20cd092c39a7398a099 X-Originating-IP: 80.76.149.213 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Sveinn Freyr Subject: Re: Theos-World Old Diary Leaves online X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=288703295; y=eV_9mhRulO0SfrMxZPv13RC4PQ0GFQ0CXcxdAHrxaRjm X-Yahoo-Profile: ari343 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40390 Good news. Thank you Anton, thank you. Sveinn Freyr ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Anton wrote: Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 >>> Dear friends, H. S. Olcott's "Old Diary Leaves" are now online - published by the Philippine TS - please see: http://www.theosophy.ph/onlinebooks.html Warmest regards, Anton <<< [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Apr 03 10:09:34 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99520 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 17:09:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m51.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 17:09:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.123) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 17:09:33 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.216] by n16.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:08:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by t1.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:08:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.89] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:08:30 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:08:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.123 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.29.109 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Psychopannychism & Thnetopsychism and the JWs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=wqX_W77LtltlEOr3IkuqBqyyc_3mlQTEE3_zNfLwHxHluRECAi0I2RAe X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40391 Thanks Perry and Konstantin for your comments about the Jehovah's Witnesses. I agree that the JWs are very literal in their interpretations. But these literal interpretations sometimes bring certain underlying issues to the forefront. More about this later. For now, I call your attention to an article in Wikepedia titled "Soul sleep". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep Concerning the terms "Psychopannychism" & "Thnetopsychism", could you apply either of these terms (or the basic concepts behind=20 the terms) to any of the following teachings?? (a) the teachings of Spiritualism concerning life after death; (b) the teachings of Blavatsky and the Mahatmas as found in Blavatsky's writings and the Mahatma Letters; (c) the teachings of Leadbeater concerning life after death. I bring all of this up as I think some of this material helps to highlight (thru comparing and contrasting) certain teachings=20 of Theosophy More later. Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Apr 03 10:29:57 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5397 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 17:29:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m51.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 17:29:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23d.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.67.213) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 17:29:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n23.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:31:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.92] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:29:37 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:29:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.218.67.213 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.29.109 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Kamaloka in the MLs and Sheol - Hades X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=616tOEYE0DmaYwQ3Sd2iQ4BwFUkxxLEBCbNW4hEiMme6fz3ka5z7ycIq X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40392 In the teaching about Kamaloka as given in the Mahatma Letters, what=20 relevance if any do the terms Sheol and Hades have ?=20=20 And if there is a relevance or relationship, what is it? See BELOW the following TWO definitions of Sheol and Hades: SHEOL ---------------------------------------- In Hebrew, Sheol (=F9=E0=E5=EC, Sh'ol) is the "abode of the dead",=20 the "underworld", "the common grave of mankind" or "pit".[1] In the=20 Hebrew Bible, it is a comfortless place beneath the earth, beyond=20 gates, where both the bad and the good, slave and king, pious and=20 wicked must go after death to sleep in silence and oblivion in the=20 dust[2]. Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and=20 the unrighteous dead, as recounted in Ecclesiastes and Job. Sheol originated from the ancient Sumerian view that after one dies,=20 no matter how benevolent or malevolent he or she was in life, in=20 Sheol he or she is destined to eat dirt to survive. Sheol is=20 sometimes compared to Hades, the gloomy, twilight afterlife of Greek=20 mythology. In fact, Jews used the word "hades" for "sheol" when they=20 translated their scriptures into Greek. The New Testament (written in=20 Greek) also uses "hades" to mean the abode of the dead (sheol). By the first century, Jews had come to believe that those in sheol=20 awaited the resurrection either in comfort (in the bosom of Abraham)=20 or in torment. This belief is reflected in Jesus' story of Lazarus=20 and Dives. Protestants, who do not share a concept of "hades" with the Eastern=20 Orthodox, have traditionally translated "sheol" (and "hades")=20 as "hell." Unlike hell, however, sheol is not associated with Satan.=20 Catholics generally translate "sheol" simply as "death."... The New Testament seems to draw a distinction between Sheol=20 and "Gehinnom", or Gehenna (Jahannam in Islam). The most "hellish"=20 notion in Jewish tradition is the Biblical word Gehinnom, later=20 interpreted to refer to a place of condemnation. But the source of=20 the word is most interesting. Gei Hinnom was the valley of Hinnom=20 (Joshua 15:8, 18:16; II Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 7:31; Nehemiah 11:30),=20 a place where children were sacrificed to the Canaanite god Moloch.=20 In Islam, this same word became Jahannam, an Islamic term for Hell. The English word hell comes from Germanic mythology, now used in the=20 Judeo-Christian sense to translate the Hebrew word Gehenna, which is=20 a valley outside Jerusalem once used for burning refuse (basically a=20 landfill), and the Greek Hades and Tartarus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol -------------------------------------------------------- HADES ------------------------------------------------------------- Like other first-century Jews literate in Greek, early Christians=20 used the Greek word hades as the translation for the Hebrew word=20 sheol. This use appears in Luke's story of Lazarus and the rich man.=20 Both underworlds had originally been dark and gloomy with no relation=20 to afterlife rewards or punishments. Since the writing of the Hebrew=20 Bible, however, the popular concept of sheol had come to include=20 particular judgment. Thus hades was seen as a place of comfort for=20 the righteous (in the bosom of Abraham) and torment for the wicked.=20 Here the dead awaited the universal resurrection on Judgment Day.=20 Early church fathers defended this view of the afterlife against the=20 view that the soul went immediately to heaven or to hell after the=20 death of the body[4]. The doctrine of hades exists in substantially its original Christian=20 form in the Eastern Orthodox Church. It also exists in its Old=20 Testament form, as the abode of the unconscious dead, in certain=20 other denominations, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses. In mainstream=20 Western Christianity, however, it has largely been replaced by the=20 concept of the soul going straight to hell, heaven, or (in Roman=20 Catholicism) purgatory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hades#Hades_in_Christianity ----------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Apr 03 10:39:17 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76832 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 17:37:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.70) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 17:37:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17d.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.67.56) by mta12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 17:37:37 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.83] by n17.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:36:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.83] by t7.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:36:25 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:36:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.218.67.56 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.29.109 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Koot Hoomi: "In that land of shadows..." Kamaloka, Sheol, Hades??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=7Yb4_8Mduw-jgtdkuhbKTt-SyLSfXbZLG-x-8_v0WCEGnybkISTfIiv1 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40393 Koot Hoomi: "In that land of shadows..."=20=20 Kamaloka, Sheol, Hades??? ----------------------------------------- "The intermediary spheres . . . are the great halting places, the=20 stations in which the new Self-Conscious Egos to be -- the self- begotten progeny of the old and disembodied Egos of our planet -- are=20 gestated. Before the new phoenix, re-born of the ashes of its parents=20 can soar higher, to a better, more spiritual, and perfect=20 world . . . it has to pass through the process of a new=20 birth . . . ." "In that land of shadows, the new and yet unconscious Ego-foetus=20 becomes the just victim of the transgressions of its old Self, whose=20 karma -- merit and demerit -- will alone weave out its future=20 destiny. In that world. . . .we find but unconscious, self-acting, ex- human machines, souls in their transition state, whose dormant=20 faculties and individuality lie as a butterfly in its chrysalis; and=20 Spiritualists would yet have them talk sense! . . . . " Could this state/condition as described by Master KH be described as Soul Sleep????? Notice the word: UNCONSCIOUS Master K.H.=20 The Mahatma Letters, 2nd Edition, Letter 9. From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Apr 03 10:45:08 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4954 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 17:45:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 17:45:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18a.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.127) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 17:45:02 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n18.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:43:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:43:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.88] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:43:45 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:43:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.127 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.29.109 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Is KH describing "Soul Sleep"??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=zVy1hXFKOAVc_BiOctdTP7mnS3aFBPOPkJ6I_OxGjVyGAsa7cj3qecsI X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40394 Thus, when man dies, his "Soul" (5th prin[ciple]) becomes unconscious=20 and loses all remembrance of things internal as well as external.=20 Whether his stay in Kama Loka has to last but a few moments, hours,=20 days, weeks, months or years; whether he died a natural or a violent=20 death; whether it occurred in his young or old age, and whether the=20 Ego was good, bad, or indifferent, - his consciousness leaves him as=20 suddenly as the flame leaves the wick, when blown out. When life has=20 retired from the last particle in the brain matter, his perceptive=20 faculties become extinct forever, his spiritual powers of cogitation=20 and volition - (all those faculties in short, which are neither=20 inherent in, nor acquirable by organic matter) - for the time being.=20 [The Mahatma Letters, p. 125 (3rd. ed.)] Every just disembodied four-fold entity - whether it died a natural=20 or a violent death, from suicide or accident, mentally sane or=20 insane, young or old, good, bad, or indifferent - loses at the=20 instant of death all recollection, it is mentally annihilated; it=20 sleeps its akasic sleep in the Kama-loka. This state lasts from a few=20 hours (rarely less), days, weeks, months - sometimes to several=20 years. All this according to the entity, to its mental status at the=20 moment of death, to the character of its death, etc. [The Mahatma=20 Letters, p. 184 (3rd. ed.)] In Kama Loka those who retain their remembrance, will not enjoy it at=20 the supreme hour of recollection. Those who know they are dead in=20 their physical bodies can only be either adepts - or sorcerers; and=20 these two are the exceptions to the general rule. Both having=20 been "co-workers with nature", the former for good, the latter - for=20 bad, in her work of creation and in that of destruction, they are the=20 only ones who may be called immortal - in the Kabalistic and the=20 esoteric sense of course. [The Mahatma Letters, p. 124 (3rd. ed.)] "Reviving consciousness begins after the struggle in Kama-Loka at the=20 door of Devachan, and only after the 'gestation period'." Master KH "From Kama Loka . . . once awakened from their post-mortem torpor,=20 the newly translated 'Souls' go all (but the shells) according to=20 their attractions, either to Devachan or Avitchi." Master KH Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Apr 03 10:46:52 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76514 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 17:46:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 17:46:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11d.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.67.60) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 17:46:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n22.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:46:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.89] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:46:24 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:46:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.218.67.60 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.29.109 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: H.P. Blavatsky on Kamaloka X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=qRIGN1Ovuo_9VkXv0i6hw7gYkmw0103Ws6rKEQ8o0d95SHJHDCO3MebD X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40395 According to the Eastern teaching, the state of the deceased in Kama- loka is not what we, living men, would recognise as "conscious." . . .=20 the process of stripping off the lower . . . principles is an=20 unconscious one in all normal human beings. It is only in very=20 exceptional cases that there is a slight return to consciousness in=20 Kama-loka; and this is the case of very materialistic unspiritual=20 personalities. . . .=20 There can be no conscious meeting in Kamaloka hence no grief. . . . in=20 Kamaloka there is as a rule (apart from vicarious life and=20 consciousness awakened through contact with medium) no recognition of=20 friends or relatives. . . . We meet those we loved only in=20 Devachan. . . .=20 H.P. Blavatsky, Collected Writings, volume IX, pp. 163-164. From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Apr 03 10:55:39 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65000 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 17:55:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.71) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 17:55:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17d.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.67.56) by mta13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 17:55:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n17.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:55:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.88] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 17:55:31 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 17:55:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.218.67.56 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.29.109 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: The "Soul Sleep" of the Butterfly??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=eFOh_5P69a2ud0YfCnGlnCJtP6_7xD5cf5J37JRV7MzXryMQyfpAUWEE X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40396 The "Soul Sleep" of the Butterfly??? Does this "Soul sleep" of the butterfly represent the Kamaloka state described by both KH and HPB? See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/mon/chrytrans.jpg And see also the sequence of photos at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/mon/monwwdie.htm Notice in photos 8, 9 and 10, the "creation" of the "shell".... See also: http://blavatskyarchives.com/mon/revivingf.htm "From Kama Loka . . . once awakened from their post-mortem torpor,=20 the newly translated 'Souls' go all (but the shells) according to=20 their attractions, either to Devachan or Avitchi." Master KH "When the sixth and seventh principles are gone, carrying off with=20 them the finer, spiritual portions of that which once was the=20 personal consciousness of the fifth, then only does the shell=20 gradually develop a hazy kind of consciousness of its own from what=20 remains in the shadow of personality." Master KH Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Apr 03 12:44:25 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 68871 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 19:44:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 19:44:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.52) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 19:44:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n23.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 19:45:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.92] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Apr 2007 19:43:25 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 19:43:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.52 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.29.109 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: NOW ONLINE: Tillett's thesis: Charles Webster Leadbeater 1854-1934 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=HmK72qK4cgBobNYzON0OPM2z5vD1djiap75x2G_czRgiApYGBoX9XMIx X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40397 NOW ONLINE: Greogry Tillett's thesis:=20=20 Charles Webster Leadbeater 1854-1934 : a biographical study See: http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/handle/2123/1623 Scroll to the bottom of this webpage for links to each chapter of his dissertation. Daniel http://hpb.cc From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Apr 03 14:58:29 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98895 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2007 21:58:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2007 21:58:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2007 21:58:27 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r8.1.) id r.d5e.5fd9dc0 (30737) for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 17:57:46 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5041 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.5 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Psychopannychism & Thnetopsychism and the JWs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162; y=reSmt_ir8WISmIJ9uJihnNMJMMxhHswQ3ObQCVdwb9sSUSyeUA X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40398 In a message dated 4/3/2007 12:10:58 PM Central Daylight Time, danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com writes: Concerning the terms "Psychopannychism" & "Thnetopsychism" could you apply either of these terms (or the basic concepts behind the terms) to any of the following teachings?? And can anyone actually say them real fast three times without getting tongue-tied? Chuck the Heretic ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silva_cass@yahoo.com Tue Apr 03 20:18:46 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75513 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2007 03:18:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2007 03:18:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web52107.mail.re2.yahoo.com) (206.190.48.110) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2007 03:18:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 2266 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Apr 2007 03:18:44 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: j5PObqcVM1n6QBpwNui3pMHNRwtyzxhLQgMAh_eIDZZAKe7JSWKD_ce2Xr0mKAf7RiaOFfDQiLibEESPB69U5RmMvA-- Received: from [210.49.185.26] by web52107.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 03 Apr 2007 20:18:44 PDT Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 20:18:44 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <651590.1423.qm@web52107.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 206.190.48.110 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Psychopannychism & Thnetopsychism and the JWs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=VwfRy7ZM7l7TsfvPFZluEyEEviXa-p_Vp9f-2mSgvp5PmUEFsQ X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40399 you can if you say psycho -panic- ism and tini -topsy -psych -ism Cass Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 4/3/2007 12:10:58 PM Central Daylight Time, danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com writes: Concerning the terms "Psychopannychism" & "Thnetopsychism" could you apply either of these terms (or the basic concepts behind the terms) to any of the following teachings?? And can anyone actually say them real fast three times without getting tongue-tied? Chuck the Heretic ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From plcoles1@yahoo.com.au Tue Apr 03 20:33:25 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: plcoles1@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24133 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2007 03:33:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2007 03:33:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (209.131.38.225) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2007 03:33:24 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n25.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2007 03:32:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2007 03:32:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.82] by t6.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2007 03:32:10 -0000 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 03:32:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 209.131.38.225 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 139.230.245.21 From: "plcoles1" Subject: Re: Psychopannychism & Thnetopsychism and the JWs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=237271074; y=LVFPXOWLA7XRO9Ur46jt7j2exKbKdMgfVeUsW3zSt5iySjk X-Yahoo-Profile: plcoles1 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40400 Hi Daniel & Konstantin, Thank-you Daniel for your interesting links and postings on life=20 after death. The idea of "soul sleep" is indeed similar to the JW's except that to=20 the Jehovah's Witnesses there is no soul to sleep therefore no soul=20 sleep. However this is where things can get pedantic as what the JW's would=20 argue is that while you are completely annihilated at death Jehovah=20 keeps you in his memory so will be able to resurrect you in the=20 future if you have fulfilled his wishes sufficiently.=20=20=20 Here is their scriptural reasoning for not believing in a soul that su rvives death from their book "Reasoning from the Scriptures" http://tinyurl.com/2o5yg4 And here is a critical article on their teaching:=20=20 http://www.watchman.org/jw/jwsoul.htm Cheers Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell"=20 wrote: > > Thanks Perry and Konstantin for your > comments about the Jehovah's Witnesses. >=20 > I agree that the JWs are very literal > in their interpretations. But these literal > interpretations sometimes bring certain underlying > issues to the forefront. More about this later. >=20 > For now, I call your attention to an article > in Wikepedia titled "Soul sleep". See: >=20 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_sleep >=20 > Concerning the terms "Psychopannychism" & "Thnetopsychism", > could you apply either of these terms (or the basic concepts behind=20 > the terms) to any of the following teachings?? >=20 > (a) the teachings of Spiritualism concerning > life after death; >=20 > (b) the teachings of Blavatsky and the Mahatmas as found > in Blavatsky's writings and the Mahatma Letters; >=20 > (c) the teachings of Leadbeater concerning life after death. >=20 > I bring all of this up as I think some of this material > helps to highlight (thru comparing and contrasting) certain=20 teachings=20 > of Theosophy >=20 > More later. >=20 > Daniel > http://hpb.cc > From gbarnhart@wt.net Wed Apr 04 10:10:50 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: gbarnhart@wt.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (qmail 8337 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2007 17:10:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.70) by m51.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2007 17:10:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server025.dfw.nationwide.net) (206.123.129.88) by mta12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2007 17:10:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 14516 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2007 17:08:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GarysComputer) (gbarnhart@wt.net@216.119.159.7) by server025.dfw.nationwide.net with SMTP; Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:08:45 +0000 Message-ID: <006601c776db$dabd8f80$079f77d8@GarysComputer> To: Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 12:08:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Originating-IP: 206.123.129.88 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "Gary Barnhart" Subject: new group in Austin started X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=278318288; y=nsEc3BlwYR6ZefQE_39HBdjp-2D2viLXymQnnKb7LJmBjw_N6A X-Yahoo-Profile: oceantheos Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40401 Hello friends, It has been some months since I have been in this group site, and I hope you are doing well. A new theosophical group is now meeting in Austin, Texas [ USA]. As I recall I made a brief announcement about this when I was last on line with this group and would like to re-announce. The group meets the 1st and 3rd Sunday in south Austin at 2:00 pm. Some one on this site contacted me a number of months back for details about this newly forming group and I need this person to contact me again so I may give other details such as where we meet. I am not confident that the email and name I took back when is currently correct as a lot was going on. Contact: Gary Barnhart Email; gbarnhart@wt.net mobile tel. [512] 619-4747 Best to you, Gary B [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Wed Apr 04 10:31:08 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51944 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2007 17:30:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.71) by m47.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2007 17:30:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.117) by mta13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2007 17:29:59 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.216] by n14.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2007 17:29:56 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.83] by t1.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2007 17:29:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.89] by t7.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2007 17:29:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:29:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.117 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.31.204 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Tillett on Mahatma Letters & Leadbeater X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=OBQ9f6mmVqAAWtqUswsbh6YDxCthjLlQ9iP8ZJXRO9wMbuMhuYFw_Bfk X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40402 "...in the case of life after death, the Mahatma Letters argue that after death man is in 'a quiet blissful sleep' and mentally 'annihilated', and that communication between the living and dead is virtually impossible. Leadbeater taught that man continues to function almost exactly as when alive, except that he no longer has a physical body, and that communication is easy." Charles Webster Leadbeater 1854-1934: A Biographical Study by Gregory Tillett Chapter 21: Notes; Note 20, p. 1057. From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Wed Apr 04 10:31:20 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95762 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2007 17:31:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.71) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2007 17:31:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.105) by mta13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2007 17:31:20 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n10.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2007 17:31:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2007 17:31:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.77] by t6.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2007 17:31:04 -0000 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:31:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.105 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.31.204 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Leadbeater.NET X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=wcdE0c5nNndlhjaFG2muwjxIP1pcovwXyHcfx49l5_9UjlCSnkBj8GzM X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40403 You can easily access Dr. Gregory Tillett's thesis on Leadbeater plus other material thru the gateway page at: http://leadbeater.net Daniel http://hpb.cc =20 From rnmiob@yahoo.com Fri Apr 06 03:11:36 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: rnmiob@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30603 invoked from network); 6 Apr 2007 10:10:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m50.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Apr 2007 10:10:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web38807.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (209.191.125.98) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 2007 10:10:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 79580 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Apr 2007 10:10:32 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: Kirmt7wVM1mKzV_VTQnIGCO4oBsfZhhwt6HUqTHXRU4yVHrJoSNZnyzeGlOCRcoYIlyM0ulV4rRUDIRiTIQYKFlxPiShid5I3RuA4uX4BimkqDJVwGY- Received: from [59.92.18.201] by web38807.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 06 Apr 2007 03:10:32 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 03:10:32 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <96724.39637.qm@web38810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <643941.79144.qm@web38807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 209.191.125.98 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Rabindra Mohanty Subject: Re: Theos-World New Member Intro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=280953386; y=8uxRNa4m0znLI0d0B_3GU_5Pf2iMlXHI2xSyMYDV8PqN X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40404 > Dear Sir, We sincerely invite you to click into our > new website http://www.thephilosophydivine.com, > based on Advaita philosophy. Your comments/suggestions/criticisms solicited. > > Regards and best wishes, > > Yours truly, > > R.N.Mohanty > Vice President > Dibya Darshan Sangh > rnmiob@yahoo.com > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Finding fabulous fares is fun. > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel > sites to find flight and hotel bargains. > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html From MarieMAJ41@aol.com Fri Apr 06 20:15:50 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12464 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2007 03:15:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.68) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Apr 2007 03:15:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Apr 2007 03:15:44 -0000 Received: from MarieMAJ41@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r8.1.) id r.d08.d8b2740 (60467) for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 23:10:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail-da19 (webmail-da19.webmail.aol.com [205.188.212.236]) by ciaaol-m01.mx.aol.com (v114_r3.5) with ESMTP id MAILCIAAOLM014-ec3346170baed5; Fri, 06 Apr 2007 23:10:38 -0400 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 23:10:38 -0400 X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI X-MB-Message-Type: User MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL WebMail 25045 Received: from 67.173.121.188 by webmail-da19.sysops.aol.com (205.188.212.236) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Fri, 06 Apr 2007 23:10:38 -0400 Message-Id: <8C946D97376DC03-1328-8063@webmail-da19.sysops.aol.com> X-AOL-IP: 205.188.212.236 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 205.188.144.207 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com Subject: Is anybody out there? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90655958; y=NB2ZAuXebkwy3mZ6eex4swIf_-npB9R6BTP40ScQ2ECM58QwJt8 X-Yahoo-Profile: olgamarie41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40405 I just watched an autopsy of the Roswell, New Mexico bodies that were found at the crash site. Awesomely interesting, but it does make me wonder, WHERE IS EVERYONE? Happy Easter to all. Marie ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Fri Apr 06 20:54:35 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98481 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2007 03:54:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.72) by m42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Apr 2007 03:54:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Apr 2007 03:54:32 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r8.1.) id r.c39.1318ce9f (32914) for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2007 23:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 23:54:26 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 205.188.157.35 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Is anybody out there? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40406 Marie, Happy Easter back to you. I've been busy reading online contents on the CCD about Bee Disappearance occurrences in the USA and Europe it is a very bad situation involving 27 States so far in the USA. Spain has lost 600,000 hive populations as of 2 months ago, Poland has lost 400,000 hive populations. Just those two not counting the other . E.U.Nations are "missing" 20 - 60 Billion Bee's. No one knows where they went to or why. Germany only began inspecting their hive last month and initial figures are 25% losses with isolated location having up to 80% loss. The living Queens of the hives were left behind with young brood and abandoned. Predatory opportunist Beetles and Moths will not enter the hives to steal the honey and bee bread stocks that were abandoned for weeks. They do not know why this happens either. Professors at many world wide Universities are online debating possible reasons and causes but it is a chaos that is found instead. Florida acknowledges the loss of 260,000 hive and data is yet unformulated to a known sate by state loss here in the USA. So far here in No. California I have seen 1 bee and today 1 Bumblebee this year total. There is more casualties than our European Honey Bee. Three species of Bumble Bee, 115 species of Butterflies and subspecies of 57 Butterflies. Two Moth species and 55 Bee species. The Colony Collapse Disease was discovered Mid-Noveber of 2006. Einstein was quoted as saying if the bee's die man has only four years to live. Alfalfa and Clover are pollinated by Bee's and are feedstock for our cattle.Many crops are completely dependent upon pollination be Bee's. Importing replacement Bee's does not seem to be a solution in the long term. The Shroud of Turin has long fascinated me due to the "Burn Marks" appearing to take the form of "Bee's." The vestal Virgin who attended the Oracle of Delphi were the "Mellisa" which in the Greek usage meant "Bee." We also used to have a member here who had affinity in referring to the Bee's. It would be nice if members here opened their awareness to seeing living Bee's where they live whether in a city or country side or if the local news is reporting hive losses. Regards, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Apr 06 23:31:08 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13364 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2007 06:31:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m43.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Apr 2007 06:31:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m25.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.6) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Apr 2007 06:31:06 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r8.1.) id 6.c23.151c2c50 (58435); Sat, 7 Apr 2007 02:30:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 02:30:13 EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: Thunderbird - Mac OS X sub 310 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.6 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: ABC Theory X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972; y=yDEbr79ESxasDEEnTWQucoHbGsAOEq2yrRm5bjmhtUB2l3rdMdw X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40407 Ralph, Thank you for your taking the time to read my ABC web page and for your=20 welcome comments. After more than ten years of exposure on the various=20 consciousness study forums, very few have gone as deeply into it as you see= m to have,=20 and with such a perceptive critique.=20=20=20 Actually, that piece was written about fifteen years ago, and I have never= =20 bothered to revise it... Although much thought has gone into it since then = and=20 much polishing has been done to the basic theory. Therefore, there are so= me=20 elements in the original commentary that might be changed or played down=20 somewhat. However, I have not changed the underlying premise, which is ba= sed it on=20 the proposition that Consciousness (i.e., awareness, will, etc.) is one of= =20 the fundamental dual aspects of the primal or mother SPACE that existed, in= =20 abscondito, prior to the initial emanation and fractal field involution on = the=20 spiritual level, that preceded the Big Bang at the fourth iteration that=20 constitutes the FALL of mind into matter -- which awakened our physical spa= ce time=20 continuum into its inflation, subsequent breaking of symmetry, precipitatio= n of=20 fundamental particles, and later, consciously guided construction into=20 galaxies, stars, planets -- to eventually generate living forms that end wi= th the=20 final evolution of mankind toward achieving the infinite intelligence and=20 consciousness of the initial source. This appears to be the basis of the = biblical=20 statement that "God created Man in his (its) own image." But, then the Go= d=20 spoken of there is actually the ten Sephiroth of the Hebrew "Tree of Life" = in the=20 Kabbala (i.e., the true occult or oral esoteric basis of the Torah and Talm= ud=20 upon which the written or exoteric Bible, however distorted and twisted, is= =20 based, and which Jesus based his entire body of teachings on).=20=20=20 According to the Kabbala, or esoteric interpretation of the Torah, which is= =20 similar to the Vedic or Hindu system -- it was these initial spiritually=20 conscious beings, Chohans or "Angels," on the third fractally involved Logo= s, that=20 guided the construction of the physical Cosmos after the "FALL"... Not the= =20 "fall of Man" as in the biblical allegory of Adam and Eve, but as the overa= ll=20 phenomenal field of Mind or Manas (Mahatma) that, falling from noumena to=20 phenomena, became the root of Man's higher nature (thinker-observer) -- the= real inner=20 spiritual Self, "soul" or "witness" which overshadows his lower evolved=20 animal nature or personal ego... This is the lower personal "self" that Bud= dha said=20 "has no real or permanent existence."=20=20=20 In this sense, he was NOT referring to the higher self that is the=20 consciousness or spirit remaining in the individualized zero-point of absol= ute SPACE --=20 that continues its individuality after death of the lower body and ego, to= =20 reincarnate cyclically in new bodies (with no lower order memory of the pre= vious=20 life) ... With such incarnations continuing until the individual resolves o= r=20 transcends all its past bad karma (or conscious disruptions of harmonious=20 nature) and attains Moksha or enlightenment, and merges with the universal = or God=20 consciousness... While still maintaining its zero-point individual=20 consciousness. This, of course, is logically in accord with ABC and its ini= tial premise of=20 the infinite divisibility of Absolute SPACE -- which is the only way we can= =20 account for the non locality as well as the entanglement of conscious=20 experience in each individual on our physical plane. Consistent with the ABC theory, I also see this "fall of Man," analogously= =20 repeated later, as the incarnation of the lower seven Sephiroth into mankin= d=20 after the fourth fractal iteration of the physical universe is constructed = (based=20 on the universal memory of its previous phenomenal existence) and after=20 organic life on Earth evolves into Mankind with sufficient brain developmen= t to=20 awaken mind. Thus, Universal Mind is evolved prior to physical Man and on= ly=20 becomes awakened in individual thinkers, as both rational and intuitive min= d,=20 after Mankind completes its evolution in the animal kingdom.=20=20=20 But, that anthropogenesis is another story... And, beyond the scope of the= =20 ABC theory... Which is only concerned with Cosmogenesis and the initial=20 fractally involved univrsal coenergetic fields -- which serve as the basis = of all=20 analogous fields of mind and memory that carry the images or information of= =20 phenomenal consciousness surrounding every zero-point of individual self aw= areness=20 and source of will power that we experience in our present bodies. Thus, neither consciousness nor mind evolves (in a Darwinian sense) ... But= =20 only Man's brain-body evolves -- so as to, after much experience and practi= ce,=20 make full use of our mental and spiritual nature, to eventually, individual= ly=20 return to the universal Spirit -- or "Become one with or 'yoked' to univers= al=20 or God consciousness," so to speak.=20=20=20 Since the teachings of Jesus and that of Guatama, the Buddha, are almost=20 identical, we might understand, then, the common underlying relationship be= tween=20 "yoga," as practiced in the East, and "religion," as practiced in the West.= ..=20 Religion, derived from the Latin religare, binding or yoking (ref: ligament= ).=20=20=20 The Buddhist teaching is to become one with the universal consciousness and= =20 thus achieve nirvana or enlightenment... As compared to the Christian idea = of=20 taking the spirit of Christ into one's Heart. "Heart" being a metaphor for= =20 one's individual self or soul, and the "spirit of Christ" being another nam= e for=20 pure universal or God consciousness -- that can be achieved (as Jesus point= ed=20 out allegorically to his disciples) by anyone with the proper knowledge and= =20 practice leading to self realization. Unfortunately, this concept has bee= n much=20 distorted in the West due to literal or dead letter interpretation of the=20 Biblical metaphors and allegories.=20 But, these theological interpretations have little to do with the scientifi= c=20 basis of ABC theory -- although they are entirely consistent with its truth= s,=20 as the fundamental basis underlying all religions (and their correct or=20 mistaken belief systems). The original Buddhist teachings, based on the s= cientific=20 metaphysics of the esoteric "Budhiism" (Skt.) of the ancient Book of the=20 Golden Precepts (Kiu-Te) -- without any anthropomorphic Gods to worship -- = being=20 the closest to the true reality.=20=20=20=20 Matter, then, is simply the other aspect of that primal SPACE -- initially,= =20 in noumena, as its abstract motion or infinite angular momentum spinning on= an=20 infinite number of axes at infinite velocities... Three axes of which are t= he=20 basis of our spherical universe consisting of all those fractally involved= =20 fields, in coadunation but not in consubstantiality (like bubbles within bu= bbles=20 within bubbles) surrounding every zero-point spread throughout all of=20 configuration space.=20=20=20 It's from that initial triple axial structure (Up-Down, N-S, E-W) that the= =20 first octahedron (inscribed in a sphere) is derived, and that fractally inv= olves=20 into the "Uniomniform" crystal of 6^3 (6x6x6) diamond shaped elements on th= e=20 physical plane. [This, incidentally, may be why St. John allegorically=20 labeled the material world (in contrast to the spiritual world of Christ) t= he=20 "beast" in revelation, and gave it the number 666.]=20 Thus, "Everything in both 'Heaven' and 'Earth' are interconnected attribute= s=20 of one thing" -- as the ancient Hermetists say -- which both Jesus and Budd= ha=20 also knew.=20 http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/UNIOMNIFORMexploded.gif http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Fract-Expansion-Cosmos.gif=20=20 I also understand this fractal geometry could very well be the root of the= =20 "structured water crystal" that you speak of... And realize that such struc= ture=20 could be the basis of the refraction's within any spherical field's geometr= ic=20 center that could allow the storage of near infinite amounts of information= at=20 different angles of incidence ... But only as holographic wave interference= =20 patterns in the higher order spherical coenergetic fields themselves that=20 surround the zero-point centers and apexes of the 216 diamond shapes within= every=20 Uniomniform crystal.=20=20=20 Note that these fractal diamond crystal forms which are analogous to the=20 fractal involution of the universal ABC coenergetic fields, are also compos= ed of=20 8^3 (8x8x8) hollow tetrahedrons -- that could very well be the root of the = 64=20 hexagrams (each a dual trigram or triple digram) of the Chinese I- Ching --= =20=20=20 which supposedly, by various combinations and changes of the yin (broken) o= r=20 yang (solid) lines in each of the 64 hexagrams can predict the "ten thousan= d"=20 things and act as an oracle. However, this is beyond the scope of the ABC= =20 theory. Although, from a psychological point of view, you might find it=20 interesting to read Carl Jung's foreword to the Wilhelm's and Baynes' trabs= lation of the=20 I-Ching. http://www.iging.com/intro/foreword.htm Since consciousness is the sole noumenal attribute of those zero-points,=20 everything in the universe is potentially phenomenally conscious in varying= =20 degrees depending on the neural complexity of the living organism. The hig= hest form=20 being the human brain-body -- which can make full use, with proper training= =20 and practice, of the higher order fields of mind and memory -- extending fr= om=20 their rational aspects to their intuitive aspects. All unconscious or=20 instinctive processes can also be attributed the memories and instructions = contained in=20 these fields and coenergetically imprinted prior to birth on the autonomic = EM=20 field of the foetal brain. These levels can be easily imagined by studying= =20 the following symbolic diagrams: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Chakrafielddiag-fig.col.jpg http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/BuddhaBabyGordianKnot.gif Thus, it's quite obvious that the "God" of ABC, and the "God" of Buddha (as= =20 was also the "God" of Einstein) is that primal SPACE that existed as both=20 noumenal Consciousness and noumenal Matter prior to the first awakening of = the=20 spiritual Cosmos along with the initial ten Sephirothal fields of universal= =20 consciousness -- of which the lower seven Sephiroths are the "Builders" or= =20 "Architects of the Universe" (as the Masons say). This, of course is why,= when=20 speaking of the ABC theory and its conscious processes, besides denying any= =20 supernatural processes -- I reject all references to a separate "personal G= od" and the=20 parallel divinity of Jesus as believed blindly through faith alone, by=20 organized Judeo-Christian religions of all denominations (this also include= s the=20 Hebrew "God" when falsely anthropomorphized as a single supernatural indivi= dual=20 such as Jehovah). To Qoute H. P. Blavatsky in her article "Nature and Nat= ures=20 God" "It is not the One Unknown ever-present God= =20 in Nature, or Nature in abscondito that is rejected, but the God of human d= ogma=20 and his humanized "Word." In his infinite conceit and inherent pride and=20 vanity, man shaped it himself with his sacrilegious hand out of the materia= l he=20 found in his own small brain-fabric, and forced it upon mankind as a direct= =20 revelation from the one unrevealed SPACE.? As for the rest of your questions and suggestions not covered above, I'll t= ry=20 to answer them directly below in the body of your original letter. Best wishes, Leon In a message dated 3/31/07 9:54:37 AM, refrost@isp.com writes: > Leon, >=20 > I was glad to read your web page > http://www.tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ >=20 > Interesting presentation and theory.=C2=A0 Well-written.=C2=A0 Thank you. >=20 > A couple of thoughts... >=20 > Not that it would be an easy thing to do,=C2=A0 but might there be anothe= r > moniker than ABC? A make-over, or revision, including a re-naming? >=20 I think that -- since this ABC (Astro Biological Coenergetics) theory=20 considers the macrocosm (Cosmos) as the analogous model of the microcosm (M= an), and=20 that both their fundamental (conscious and living) natures are entirely=20 governed by their individual biology that coenergetically (i.e., inductive= =20 resonantly) projects and reflects through all their fractally involved fiel= ds -- Astro=20 Biological Coenergetics almost exactly describes the basic unified field th= eory=20 that underlies both cosmogenesis and anthropogenesis. Since, it's an=20 undisputed fact that all matter, at any degree of substantiality, is nothin= g more=20 than energetic SPACE in varying degrees of motion... Therefore, all biologi= cal=20 processes -- on both the macrocosmic and the microcosmic levels, as well as= on=20 or in quantum and sub quantum vacuum field levels -- must be governed by th= e=20 coenergetic interaction of those vibrational fields and the information the= y=20 carry. Therefore, to change this descriptive process nomenclature, would = be to=20 change the fundamental basis of the entire theory -- which IMHO is entirely= =20 out of the question... Since life is nothing more than the biological=20 interaction of coenergetic (electrodynamic) physical and astral or hyperspa= ce fields in=20 conjunction with consciousness. :-) >=20 > Also, I disagree with the Essene/new age=C2=A0 portrayal of=C2=A0 Jesus s= ince > the number of consistent written accounts going the other way are > much greater in number and there are, I think, certain coherent > advantages to not trivializing actual truth, but rather magnifying > Jesus in the large scheme of things.=C2=A0 I think, in fact, that > magnifying Jesus=C2=A0 may help to "make" your theory rather than detract > it --=C2=A0 "save your life, rather than lose it" as the verse goes.=C2= =A0 That > is,=C2=A0 then you can solidly point toward the thousands of years of > discrete prophetic predictions, tying in with their astronomically > highly unlikely fulfillment in his one life.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Jesus is the > answer", which may sound ridiculous to you on the surface,=C2=A0 still > turns out to be the foundational truth whether any of us like it of > not.=C2=A0 It's just a historical fact. >=20 I can't see how the view I have of Jesus as a great Master of Wisdom -- who= =20 knew all the truths of Cosmogenesis that my theory logically explains and i= s=20 perfectly consistent with the Talmud's Kabbalistic interpretation that he k= new=20 thoroughly -- has anything to do with making my theory more credible. In= =20 fact, although his teachings may confirm it, an association of the theory w= ith the=20 Biblical Jesus, just puts a religious belief to it -- rather than having a= =20 sound scientifically logical basis related more to the cutting edge of stri= ng=20 and quantum field theories as well as the holographic paradigm of Bohm-Prib= ram,=20 and the microlepton theory of Iskakov among others. As for the "historical fact" I doubt that the Jesus of the Christian Bible= =20 ever really had an historical existence as they interpret it. (Although I'm= sure=20 some wise Master of occult Knowledge spoke the words attributed to him) = =20 And, i'm sure his supposed "divinity" is the same as that which any true yo= ga=20 Master (or anyone aspiring to become one) could obtain by deep meditative=20 practice of Rajah Yoga as described in the Yoga Aphorisms of Patanjali. F= or online=20 version, see: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/patanjal/patan-hp.htm=20 Didn't the Biblical Jesus say to his disciples, "You too, can do what I do"= ?=20=20 For more on how I understand Jesus, see: Who Was That Man Called J.C. < http://users.aol.com/graphinc/wwtmcjc.html> As for Jesus being an Essene, it's quite obvious that the Essene philosophy= =20 of the Nazarenes is identical to the teachings of both the Christ and the=20 Buddha.=20 BTW, the phrase "save your life rather than lose it" refers to the real inn= er=20 life of spirit or one's higher nature that we have to save, rather than los= e=20 its connection to the universal consciousness by falling into and becoming= =20 attached to the world of Mammon. But, as a faithful follower of the Maste= r=20 Jesus the Nazarene' (a.k.a. Rabbi Yeshuah Ben Yosef) -- I'm sure you alread= y know=20 that. :-)=20 Since I believe (both logically and experientially) in life after death of= =20 the physical body -- having had a (later shown to be classic) near death=20 experience, as well as several confirmed out of body experiences... And, co= nsidering=20 the ABC reality -- based on cyclic beginnings and endings of all physical=20 existences, as well as the eternality of zero-point consciousness -- I real= ize the=20 possibility of both reincarnation and eternal nirvana. Therefore, I have = no=20 reason to believe any of the religious teachings on those subjects -- that= =20 can only see such conscious existence after death as a spiritually material= istic=20 view of a Heaven and Hell -- which in my view are completely erroneous idea= s.=20 Only reincarnation an its infinite justice can allow us to experience our= =20 individual heaven's and hell[s right here on Earth where we initiated our g= ood=20 or evil karma.=20=20=20 As Buddha said (and Christ implied) "all that we are (as pure conscious=20 beings) is the result of what we have thought, and all that we will become = (in this=20 or our next life) is what we are thinking now." Implying, correctly, that= =20 mind is separate from brain and body, and that karma ("what we sow, so shal= l we=20 reap") governs our existence in or out of the body. As ABC also concludes= ,=20 such teachings are based on the fact that consciousness is eternal and=20 unchanging, while all physical existence can be changed, modified or manipu= lated --=20 for good or evil -- depending on one's inner knowledge and motive for actio= n. In conclusion, I don't think that going any further into magnifying Jesus=20 would do anything to help the ABC theory, which is based solely on scientif= ic and=20 mathematical reasoning, starting from zero and founded on a "new scientific= =20 paradigm" that considers consciousness and matter as fundamental realities = in=20 themselves, right from the get go... That is in direct contradiction of pre= sent=20 physical science's assumption that matter is fundamental and consciousness = an=20 epiphenomena... While also denying the supernatural miracles and other and= =20 mystical aspects of most organized religions. Vicarious atonement and=20 resurrection being examples.=20 All that putting Jesus into the picture, as the believers see him, could do= =20 -- would be to put the ABC theory into the same category as other mystical= =20 nonsense that there can be "miracles" based on godlike "supernatural" power= s.=20=20=20 ABC has no connection with such woolly minded thinking based on nothing but= =20 blind faith in a literal interpretation of scriptures that have no historic= al=20 validity except through their own unverified and unfalsifiable assertions -= - that=20 I can only attribute to priest-craft. In my view, all the so called mirac= les=20 were based on learned knowledge of the correlation of forces on all planes = of=20 reality, along with a full understanding that will can be focussed and=20 directed consciously, and, at its fundamental level, is causative of all ph= ysical=20 phenomena. Thus, to be one with "God" consciousness at the primal zero-po= int=20 is to have Godlike powers. But, such powers are based solely on scientifi= c=20 knowledge, both metaphysically and physically. > I know it doesn't play well in the modern culture -- it never did, > but if you allow those examples in, which it seems you are saying > your theory does anyway, then the long predicted Messiah, and the > entire long account of the history of God's people comes from what > you call the "higher, spiritual" levels, which others of us=C2=A0 already > have learned a bit about "by faith",=C2=A0 to=C2=A0 thankfully refer to a= s > relating with the living God.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It is, after all, 2007 orbits = AFTER > the birth of Jesus.=C2=A0 That fact alone reveals that the event was > hugely "off the map"=C2=A0 in significance in human terms.=C2=A0 Triviali= ze or > misrepresent the facts on that instance and what do you have?=C2=A0 What > do you gain? >=20 I have never trivialized the fact that a Messiah could appear whenever ther= e=20 was an historical or evolutionary need... But that Messiah could be anyone= =20 that was there with the required knowledge and wisdom at the right time and= =20 place. What Jesus has to do with the scientific world today is completely= =20 irrelevant as I see it, especially with respect to my theory... Except, t= hat most=20 of the wars and killing in this age are carried out in the name of both Jes= us=20 and the so-called "living God" that he represents. As for trivializing Jes= us=20 in the eyes of religious people who believe in him by faith, I regret that = my=20 theory puts him in that light. But, as the great Master occultist he was,= I=20 can never trivialize him and his message (if you understand the parables an= d=20 metaphors) that so closely are confirmed by my ABC theory.=20=20 I can't see how the view I have of Jesus as a great Master of Wisdom -- who= =20 knew all the truths of Cosmogenesis that my theory logically explains and i= s=20 perfectly consistent with the Talmud's Kabbalistic interpretation that he k= new=20 thoroughly (as I incidentally, learned from my father and grandfather who, = like=20 his, were learned Talmudists and Kabbalists) -- has anything to do with=20 making my theory more credible. In fact, although his teachings may confir= m it, an=20 association of the theory with the Biblical Jesus, just puts a religious=20 belief to it -- rather than having a sound scientifically logical basis rel= ated=20 more to the cutting edge of string and quantum field theories as well as th= e=20 holographic paradigm of Bohm-Pribram, and the microlepton theory of Iskakov= among=20 others. As for the "historical fact" I doubt that the Jesus of the Christian Bible= =20 ever really had an historical existence as they interpret it. (Although I'm= sure=20 some wise Master of occult Knowledge spoke the words attributed to him) = =20 And, i'm sure his supposed "divinity" is the same as that which any true yo= ga=20 Master (or anyone aspiring to become one) could obtain by deep meditative=20 practice of Rajah Yoga as described in the Yoga Aphorisms of Patanjali. F= or online=20 version, see: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/patanjal/patan-hp.htm=20 Didn't the Biblical Jesus say to his disciples, "You too, can do what I do"= ?=20=20 For more on how I understand Jesus, see: Who Was That Man Called J.C. < http://users.aol.com/graphinc/wwtmcjc.html> As for Jesus being an Essene, it's quite obvious that the Essene philosophy= =20 of the Nazarenes is identical to the teachings of both the Christ and the=20 Buddha.=20 BTW, the phrase "save your life rather than lose it" refers to the real inn= er=20 life of spirit or one's higher nature that we have to save, rather than los= e=20 its connection to the universal consciousness by falling into and becoming= =20 attached to the world of Mammon. But, as a faithful follower of the Maste= r=20 Jesus the Nazarene' (a.k.a. Rabbi Yeshuah Ben Yosef) -- I'm sure you alread= y know=20 that. :-)=20 Since I believe (both logically and experientially) in life after death of= =20 the physical body -- having had a (later shown to be classic) near death=20 experience, as well as several confirmed out of body experiences... And, co= nsidering=20 the ABC reality -- based on cyclic beginnings and endings of all physical=20 existences, as well as the eternality of zero-point consciousness -- I real= ize the=20 possibility of both reincarnation and eternal nirvana. Therefore, I have = no=20 reason to believe any of the religious teachings on those subjects -- that= =20 can only see such conscious existence after death as a spiritually material= istic=20 view of a Heaven and Hell -- which in my view are completely erroneous idea= s.=20 Only reincarnation an its infinite justice can allow us to experience our= =20 individual heaven's and hell[s right here on Earth where we initiated our g= ood=20 or evil karma.=20=20=20 As Buddha said (and Christ implied) "all that we are (as pure conscious=20 beings) is the result of what we have thought, and all that we will become = (in this=20 or our next life) is what we are thinking now." Implying, correctly, that= =20 mind is separate from brain and body, and that karma ("what we sow, so shal= l we=20 reap") governs our existence in or out of the body. As ABC also concludes= ,=20 such teachings are based on the fact that consciousness is eternal and=20 unchanging, while all physical existence can be changed, modified or manipu= lated --=20 for good or evil -- depending on one's inner knowledge and motive for actio= n. In conclusion, I don't think that going any further into magnifying Jesus=20 would do anything to help the ABC theory, which is based solely on scientif= ic and=20 mathematical reasoning, starting from zero and founded on a "new scientific= =20 paradigm" that considers consciousness and matter as fundamental realities = in=20 themselves, right from the get go... That is in direct contradiction of pre= sent=20 physical science's assumption that matter is fundamental and consciousness = an=20 epiphenomena.=20=20=20 All that putting Jesus into the picture, as the believers see him, could do= =20 -- would be to put the ABC theory into the same catagory as other mystical= =20 nonsense that there can be "miracles" based on god-like "supernatural" powe= rs.=20=20=20 ABC has no connection with such wooly minded thinking based on nothing but= =20 blind faith in a literal interpretation of scriptures that have no historic= al=20 validity except through their own unverified and unfalsifiable assertions -= - that=20 I can only attribute to priest-craft. In my view, all the so called mirac= les=20 were based on learned knowledge of the correlation of forces on all planes = of=20 reality, along with a full understanding that will can be focussed and=20 directed consciously, and, at its fundamental level, is causative of all ph= ysical=20 phenomena. Thus, to be one with "God" consciousness at the primal zero-po= int=20 is to have God-like powers. But, such powers are based solely on scientif= ic=20 knowledge, both metaphysically and physically. >=20 > Or, considering Castenada's or Don Yuan's imagery,=C2=A0 opening up to th= e > inner world is a matter of life and death.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Why would they say > that?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Why would Castenada point out being a follower of > Christ=C2=A0 was "akin to"=C2=A0 being within another nagual system? >=20 Well, isn't it? Wasn't the Christ of the Bible, practicing "sorcery" (at= =20 least in the eyes of his disciples) when he performed his so called miracle= s?=20=20=20 Doesn't that make him a "Nagual" (i.e., sorcerer) And, isn't a real "follow= er"=20 of that Christ only among his "disciples" to whom he gives the real=20 scientifically metaphysical knowledge of his "miracles", rather than "casti= ng those=20 pearls among swine" (ignorant people) who blindly follow him. And isn't o= pening=20 up to the spiritual world a matter of "eternal life or death?" In the ABC= =20 theory, it's easy to see how both karma and reincarnation can be facts of=20 nature, and that returning or yoking to the Cosmic spirit or consciousness = could be=20 the source of eternal life in perfect bliss. In this view, "LIFE" can onl= y=20 be spirit or consciousness -- not the brain-body that dissipates after=20 death... While the higher order fields of mind and memory continue for as l= ong as=20 their higher order vibrations allow... Which, in the case of higher or intu= itive=20 mind -- could be as long as the Sun (our local "universe" that supplies us= =20 with the higher spiritual energies of LIFE) continues to exist. .=20 >=20 > And which path do you know which is a path with heart?=C2=A0=C2=A0 Where'= d you > learn about it? Might there be a deeper wisdom in first providing a > significant undeniable exemplar well before acquiring the broader knowled= ge? >=20 There cannot be any "undeniable exemplar" when discussing the nature of the= =20 higher order fields and their energies -- since it can only be proven=20 subjectively by self devised and self determined study and effort -- which = requires=20 deep meditative practice a la Patanjali. This practice, also leads to "Se= lf=20 realization" or enlightenment. The Heart Doctrine, BTW, is based on the i= nner=20 knowledge that one's individual consciousness is also the consciousness of= =20 all... Therefore, what one does to another is, "as if it were done to onese= lf."=20 The Heart Doctrine and path was taught to me (besides the teachings of Jesu= s=20 and Guatama, which verifies the conclusions I also arrived at through a dee= p=20 understanding of the ABC theory and its self judgemental consequences based= on=20 the laws of karma, "As ye sow, so shall ye reap." etc.) through a small=20 devotional book called "The Voice of the Silence" by H. P. Blavatsky.=20 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/voice/voice.htm And through another book, "The Light on the Path" by Mabel Collins.=20 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/lightpat/lightpat.htm > That is, if we are to all open up to "worship in spirit and in > truth",=C2=A0 is it wise to not emphasize but to put aside the advice to > love God with=C2=A0 heart, mind, strength and soul, and to love one's > neighbor as one's self?=C2=A0=C2=A0 To not speak of what is given? >=20 Yes, I think it's very wise to teach the real truth behind the admonition t= o=20 love God and one's neighbor as oneself -- since the ABC theory proves (to=20 those who understand it) that these "selves" or apparent individual conscio= usness=20 are all identical right from the Cosmic primal beginning.=20=20=20 Self-acknowledgment of such truths through ones inner knowledge is far more= conducive to=20 practice than the admonition based on blind faith in a separate God. For,= if all=20 such blind believers in a personal God, vicarious atonement, and a divine J= esus=20 would follow such admonition, there would be no more wars fought by Christi= ans=20 and Muslims who pray to their same God to defeat their enemies. How does= =20 that jibe with "love thy neighbor as thyself"? Who are they kidding? = =20 >=20 > Also,=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 I note from > http://www.medhelp.org/forums/neuro/archive/8916.html=C2=A0 that > aftereffects of a pinealectomy=C2=A0 is not immediate death or coma or > total disruption of=C2=A0 consciousness or memory or imagination.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0 This > fact, to me, disrupts the connections and roles=C2=A0 you pose to the > pineal gland.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thoughts? Remedies? >=20 My knowledge of the Pineal came through an endocrinologist who was talking= =20 about using a deep electromagnetic probe to examine the brain, long before = the=20 advent of MRI's and minimal invasive computerized surgery techniques.=20=20 Therefore, I do not give much credence to anecdotal information regarding t= he removal=20 of a brain tumor in on the pineal gland, which may not have removed the ent= ire=20 pineal gland, or entered its hollow interior... Although, it may have=20 interrupted the nerve paths that trigger the manufacture and release of mel= atonin.=20 While I doubt that much is known about the inner nature of the hollow gland= in=20 vitro... Today, I no longer have to speculate about the pineal being the vi= sual=20 theater, since the zero-point consciousness hypothesis does not require a=20 physical link to the higher order light which we see inside our own mind --= which=20 field is separate from the brain in a higher order hyperspace beyond the=20 reach of physical mechanisms. Although, I can still consider an analogou= s=20 Uniomniform crystal as a focusing mechanism that is in either a liquid (wat= er),=20 physical (silicon) or astral/hyperspace form -- since the actual mechanism = of=20 holographic reconstruction of images stored as interference patterns on the= =20 surface of the higher order fields has not yet been fully defined -- other = than=20 projection of a higher order coherent radiation from the zero-point of perc= eption=20 in the center of the brain between the eyes and the ears adjacent to or in= =20 the pineal gland itself. >=20 > Having ~worked with an "allspace-filling"=C2=A0 magnetic tetrahedral > imagery, I enjoyed thinking=C2=A0 about your notion of octahedra stacking > to form octahedra, etc.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I think the tetrahedral formwork is w= ell > represented throughout the body in an analogous manner as the water > molecules, either present of those formed during aerobic > respiration.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Vibrations of that molecular array=C2=A0 is the = widget that > I think=C2=A0=C2=A0 transcribes signals "downward/upward".=C2=A0 The ++-- > tetrahedral-like form is present and continually replenished in a > wildly uniform manner in all of us anyway, so it's easy to view that > array as an antenna, generating and receiving various patterns. >=20 While I have no doubt that the water molecules form a Uniomniform crystal=20 analog (which is a combination of octahedral shapes separated by hollow=20 tetrahedral shapes in the ratio 6:8) I do not think that such water molecul= es or such=20 shapes in other media have any relationship to the storage of memory -- sin= ce=20 such information can only be stored as interference patterns in the fundame= ntal=20 fields that compose the hyperspace fields as well as the electrodynamic=20 fields of any physical form starting with the smallest fundamental particle= .=20=20=20 Although such crystalline shapes have some relationship to the transmission= of the=20 information IOW, the ABC theory postulates that everything in the universe = is=20 composed of electrodynamic fields of fundamental SPACE in vibratory motion,= =20 and like radio waves, such radiation's can carry modulated wave interferenc= e=20 patterns that form holograms at varying angles of incidence related to the= =20 reflecting surfaces of the analogous Uniomniform geometry within all spheri= cal=20 fields at any level of substantiality.=20=20=20 >=20 > I use the same artifact for the inner analog language for all the > senses, imagination, and certainly for the short-term > memory.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hooking "bound water" layers with proteins also makes= for > some energetically very persistent artifacts so the long term memory > could fashioned, rather simply, I think,=C2=A0=C2=A0 in the bound water l= ayer. >=20 I doubt this -- since there is no mechanism that prevents the evaporation o= f=20 water which action disrupts its crystalline nature (except possibly on its= =20 higher order hyperspace field radiation's). This possibility is what I th= ink=20 accounts for the "phantom DNA" detected in some recent Russian experiments = using=20 Kirlian photography.=20 >=20 > Of course,=C2=A0 those knots and twists in the ordered water have > associated or complementary vibrating field imageries so I see > similarities in the descriptions. >=20 > Do you? >=20 Yes, but I'm not sure it's the same way you see them. :-) >=20 > Also, what are your thoughts on prayer?=C2=A0 Where do you stand on it? >=20 I am totally neutral about it, since the only prayer I know of is meditatio= n=20 on the nature of the true self-of-one -- which is the Self-of-all. This= =20 corresponds to Jesus' admonition to "pray to your God in your own private=20 chamber" -- meaning, in the mind... With the Self-of-all, or the "Universal= =20 Consciousness" being that "God". As for prayer to a non existent supern= atural=20 personal God outside of one's own higher self (or as the occultists say, "t= he=20 Master within us all"-- I believe it is a complete waste of time and energy= .=20=20=20 The reason =E2=80=9Cnot to tell=E2=80=9D about what you learn in such praye= r or meditation,=20 is that it would be throwing pearls at swine. :-)=20=20=20 Best wishes,=20 Leon >=20 > Best regards, > Ralph >=20 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Apr 07 08:18:15 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6356 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2007 15:18:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.70) by m45.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Apr 2007 15:18:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7b.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.166) by mta12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Apr 2007 15:18:15 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.219] by n7.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2007 15:15:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by t4.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2007 15:15:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.86] by t1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2007 15:15:31 -0000 Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:15:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.166 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.29.4 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Mysterious disappearance of US bees creating a buzz X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=ZJRfa9zuPrZ3L69GFGepSOMI4_DzNHh_Qktot-IA8_ucP7TgzVqJZtDv X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40408 Mysterious disappearance of US bees=20 creating a buzz=20 See: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070407/sc_afp/sciencenaturebeesus Daniel From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Apr 07 08:33:32 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24977 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2007 15:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.71) by m48.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Apr 2007 15:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11e.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.67.71) by mta13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Apr 2007 15:33:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n21.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2007 15:33:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.76] by t2.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2007 15:33:14 -0000 Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:33:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.218.67.71 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.29.4 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: What's Happening To The Bees? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=1fj08aB0W-iXjTxqmqZqQHhNE33CUCqLLge-bj3fVtpWIYXsQ2efnbfz X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 40409 What's Happening To The Bees? See: http://cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/04/national/main2646409.shtml Daniel From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Apr 07 10:30:06 2007 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17158 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2007 17:30:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m46.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Apr 2007 17:30:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7c.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com) (69.147.64.167) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Apr 2007 17:30:02 -0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n7.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2007 17:29:38 -0000 Received: from [209.73.164.86] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2007 17:29:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.89] by t8.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2007 17:29:38 -0000 Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 17:29:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 69.147.64.167 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9