From carl.ek@mail.com Wed Nov 01 00:01:42 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carl.ek@mail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33307 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 07:24:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 07:24:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.187.154) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 07:24:12 -0000 Received: from [66.163.187.120] by n11.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 07:22:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by t1.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 07:22:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.82] by t6.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 07:22:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 07:22:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00e501c6fd6f$2fc49f50$309f77d8@GarysComputer> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.163.187.154 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 144.139.85.171 From: "Carl" Subject: Re: Fairness in presentation, Liberal Cath. Church X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=280232260; y=-kGYd3K4VcA5jOVZKfUN5nJRPdzHBWIOiGuFR9BFfYkbZA X-Yahoo-Profile: ek_carl X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36745 One most has to be clear of that there exist several different LCC- groups. Some of those are "friendly" whit the Adyar-society, and=20 some are not. They are not always even friendly whit each other. Carl The following are from Wikipedia. About the Schisms in LCC First Schism In 1941, there was a schism in the Liberal Catholic Church in the=20 United States, surrounding a controversy involving Bishop Charles=20 Hampton, who, while he was himself a theosophist, wished to keep=20 adherence to theosophical tenets optional for the clergy. This was=20 in keeping with what was taken to be the original intent of the=20 church's founders, who, although they were theosophists, wanted the=20 church to remain primarily Catholic and to be open to everyone.=20 While some branches of the church place more esoteric, lifestyle and=20 dietary restrictions on the clergy, the church as a whole did not,=20 and still does not, require membership in the Theosophical Society. Legal battle The controversy surrounding Bishop Hampton led to a legal battle in=20 the United States which eventually split into two different=20 divsions, both of which claimed to be the Liberal Catholic Church.=20 Frank W. Pigott, the church's 3rd Presiding Bishop in England, who=20 held to a more theosophical ideal for the church, removed Hampton=20 and then ordered the confiscation of certain church property at the=20 Regionary headquarters in California and forced the resignation of=20 those clergy under Hampton who refused to support his new episcopal=20 replacement. At the time, the majority of Liberal Catholics in the=20 United States supported Hampton and saw his removal from the office=20 of Regionary and the other subsequent precedings as a breach of=20 canon law and a violation of some of the laws of California under=20 which the church had been incorporated in America. These clergy=20 continued on their own and won the right to be called the Liberal=20 Catholic Church in the U.S. (while being called the Liberal Catholic=20 Church International in the rest of the world). Those who followed=20 Bishop Pigott in England became known in America as The Liberal=20 Catholic Church, Province of the United States of America. Both=20 divisions have similar structures of government and administration. After Frank W. Pigott retired as the Presiding Bishop, and after=20 attempts at a reconcilation, some of the clergy in the LCCI returned=20 to The Liberal Catholic Church, Province of the United States of=20 America. Bishop Hampton died before the litigation was settled.=20 While some clergy wish for more cooperation between the two=20 Divisions, they still exist independently. Second Schism? In 2003 there was another schism in the Liberal Catholic Church=20 worldwide. The main issues in this split was the ordination of women=20 to the Holy Orders. Again, as in the case of the first schism, it is=20 difficult to say who continues the tradition and who is the=20 schismatic. What is certain is that some parishes in the Dutch,=20 Belgium and Canada provinces who represented the "liberal" wing of=20 the Liberal Catholic Church worldwide broke away from the "mother=20 church" still using the name The Liberal Catholic Church even though=20 they left the church. The "mother church" opened "The Order of Our=20 Lady" for women seeking ordinations in 2000. Since both groups call=20 themselves The Liberal Catholic Church, distinguishing between the=20 two can be confusing. Significantly, in 2004 Regionary Bishop for=20 Sweden, Sten-Bertil Jakobson declared for the right of women to be=20 ordained, and he joined the newly formed movement in the Netherlands=20 and Belgium. He was followed by the Liberal Catholic Congregations=20 in Austria, Demnark, Germany, Cameroon, and both Congos. Several new=20 congregations have been formed in England and the USA. The=20 membership of this movement is estimated to exceed 50,000 members. At their General Episcopal Synod in 2004, the Liberal Catholic=20 Church International also began the ordination of women up to and=20 including the Order of Bishop. In 1982 Ernest W. Jackson had resigned from Province of Canada and=20 started a group called The Liberal Catholic Church - Theosophia=20 Synod. The group was always very small, but on May 15, 2005, under=20 the leadership of John Schwarz III, they joined with the progressive=20 Dutch, Belgium and Canada branch of the LCC. The Theosophia Synod no=20 longer maintains a separate existence. Differences of the Divisions The General Episcopal Synod of The Liberal Catholic Church worldwide=20 requires its clergy to believe in such theosophical tenets as=20 reincarnation and the ascended masters. It encourages its priests=20 and its bishops to have a vegetarian diet and to refrain from using=20 tobacco as well as alcohol. Significantly it also continues to=20 require deacons, priests and bishops to be male. In this regard, The=20 Liberal Catholic Church follows the same practise as the Roman=20 Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. The Liberal=20 Catholic Church International does not as a group require any belief=20 in theosophical tenets, while it continues to accept them if they=20 are the personal choice of the individual. Since 2004, the Liberal=20 Catholic Church International opens the ordination of women to all=20 Holy Orders up to and including bishop. The Liberal Catholic Church=20 (Dutch, Belgium, Britain and Canada), retains the emphasis on the=20 theosophical tenets, but practices ordination of women to Holy=20 Orders and requires its clergy to hold the ordination of women as a=20 matter of church belief --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Barnhart" =20 wrote: > > The Church of St. Francis ,The Liberal Catholic Church in Villa=20 Park, Illinois, USA is about 5 miles or 7km from Wheaton,=20 Illinois,USA where the headquarters of=20 > the Theosophical Society In America {with International=20 Headquarters Adyar, (Madras), India] is located.=20 >=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 > It is worthwhile to look at the Links on the church's web site=20 http://www.liberalcatholic.com/ as they link to the Adyar website=20 of http://www.anandgholap.net writings of Besant and Leadbeater.=20=20 Also the link to Besant's "THE ANCIENT WRITINGS" the first=20 paragraph in the Preface says: > This book is intended to place in the hands of the general reader=20 an epitome of theosophical teachings, sufficiently plain to serve=20 the elementary student, and sufficiently full to lay a sound=20 foundation for further knowledge. It is hoped that it may serve as=20 an introduction to the profounder works of H.P.Blavatsky, and be a=20 convenient steppingstone to their study. >=20 >=20 > One may also note that the church website has a link to Quest=20 Books, the publishing arm of The T.S. in America w/ headquarters=20 Adaro.=20 >=20 > Now, is there any question remaining of the intertwining of The=20 Liberal Catholic Church and The T.S. In America-Adyar ??? >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Wed Nov 01 00:02:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14687 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 07:08:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 07:08:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.55) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 07:08:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n26.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 07:08:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by t8.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 07:08:15 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 07:08:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.55 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.27.41 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: "...John Cooper told me that Mrs. Griscom was their ES Head...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=NipMSxTeBdP7eF2mv2tjXSJDsiRMHXNIIZf3O20ULn75mdlxHPOEXlAF X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36746 Ken Small writes: "Actually John Cooper told me that Mrs. Griscom=20 was their ES Head...." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36743 Yes, this is also what John Cooper told me. I'm under the impression John was going to write an article about this. L. Genevieve Griscom was the wife of C. A. Griscom, Jr. "Mr. and Mrs. C. A. Griscom, Jr., followed Mr. Hargrove in his=20 secession from the Tingley succession." http://wisdomworld.org/additional/AFTERMATH-10- PartSeries/ArticleNumber7of10.html=20 For more on the Hargrove TS, see: "The Esoteric School Within the Hargrove Theosophical Society" by=20 John Cooper, THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY, April-July 1993, pp. 178-186. Daniel http://hpb.cc From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Wed Nov 01 00:40:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61841 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 08:40:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 08:40:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19a.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.48) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 08:40:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n19.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 08:39:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.78] by t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 08:39:55 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:39:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.48 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.165 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: BCW Offline X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=zzAGom7Ua5IaegyobiM4fWG3NURIvjM8HbxbrCFkjqHEW1NB X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36747 Dear Carlos, --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20 wrote: > You strike a central issue here.=20 >> House. I say skrew 'em. They've had them=20 >> for up to 40 yrs (the original vols. were=20 >> published independently by Zirkoff) and=20 >> that's long enough. Yes, I agree that the copyright is dubious. The HPB works are in public domain, only notes and compliation can be=20 copyrighted, but they are by Zirkoff, not by TPH. As far I know it=20 was a joint project of TS Pasadena & TS Adyar. Did anyone succeed to download htmls before they were removed? I think it would be a good idea to put them online again, perhaps, on=20 the ULT site. It surely will conform the objects of ULT declaration. The BCW CD cannot replace the online edition because it has search=20 system much inferior to any internet search engine like Google which=20 can be applied to online edition. >From the other hand, CD is better because it keeps italics and other=20 font properties which were often lost in the online edition. Yet it doesn't matter if we use this edition for search only. Later the old files can be gradually replaced by the newer, keepeing=20 the original formatting. From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Nov 01 00:43:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 58317 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 06:41:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 06:41:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d22.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.208) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 06:41:33 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.6.) id r.c26.7ef6802 (48576) for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 01:41:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 01:41:25 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5031 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 205.188.144.208 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Fairness in presentation, Liberal Cath. Church X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162; y=TgJyHlOj2wV5dVPhMpdqd3s0R2JlKfPMS-urOMZuSU-IgSKb2A X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36748 In a message dated 10/31/2006 10:52:55 PM Central Standard Time, gbarnhart@wt.net writes: Now, is there any question remaining of the intertwining of The Liberal Catholic Church and The T.S. In America-Adyar ??? So what? Chuck the Heretic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carl.ek@mail.com Wed Nov 01 00:44:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carl.ek@mail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90708 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 08:15:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 08:15:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.25) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 08:15:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n31.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 08:15:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.85] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 08:15:22 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:15:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.25 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 144.139.85.171 From: "Carl" Subject: Re: BCW Permissions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=280232260; y=Yrf_r0IyWvikWrnnAFJh64z8WO0N2UnztKhcIbQanROB-A X-Yahoo-Profile: ek_carl X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36749 Did de Zirkoff give Wheaton/Quest Books/TPH the copyright of BCW, or=20 has anyone at all the copyrights of this material? H.P. Blavatsky's=20 relatives, any T.S., or what or who? If not. This copyright of the=20 BCW only is in the "head" (or what ever now it is, together with a=20 lot of other strange thing) of Quest Books, so what has Ton den=20 Hartog then to be afraid of? Ok, Mr. Bland could take him to court,=20 but then I think we all have to support him (den Hartog), with our=20 pen and our money. Carl --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20 wrote: > > Jake, >=20 > You strike a central issue here.=20 >=20 >=20 > Carlos.=20 >=20 >=20 > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >=20 > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >=20 > C=F3pia: >=20 > Data:Tue, 31 Oct 2006 05:47:43 -0800 (PST) >=20 > Assunto:Theos-World BCW Permissions >=20 > > BCW online and "Permissions" > >=20 > >=20 > > Dan says that the Blavatsky Collected=20 > > Writings online, were put there without=20 > > permission of Quest & Theosophical Publishing=20 > > House. I say skrew 'em. They've had them=20 > > for up to 40 yrs (the original vols. were=20 > > published independently by Zirkoff) and=20 > > that's long enough. They certainly don't=20 > > care much about publishing rights - unless=20 > > its their own - as can be seen by Algeo=20 > > stealing and plagiarizing perhaps the whole=20 > > of John Cooper's editorial work on Vol. I=20 > > of "HPB Letters." The work is de Zirkoff's=20 > > - not Quest's. One wonders why the largest=20 > > TS - Wheaton/Adyar - has to go Outside=20 > > their own largest organization to get any=20 > > quality scholars - de Zirkoff and Barborka,=20 > > for instance, were both Point Loma people.=20 > > A good question is - since groups like=20 > > ULT and Pasadena have put all their=20 > > literature online - why hasn't Quest/Wheaton=20 > > done the same thing? The work on the=20 > > BCW CD (a good thing!) is the work of=20 > > another nearly Independent in the Phillipines=20 > > - Vincent Hao Chin (?). Always work by=20 > > independents - which Wheaton scarfs up! > >=20 > >=20 > > Plain txt BCW on line at: > >=20 > >=20 > > http://tonh.net/theosofie/hpb_cw_online/ > >=20 > >=20 > > Three cheers for Hartog! > >=20 > >=20 > > - jaqua > >=20 > > -------------- > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > <7. HPB's Collected Writings Online: UPDATE > > Posted by: "danielhcaldwell" > > danielhcaldwell@...=20 > > danielhcaldwell > > Date: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:33 pm (PST) > >=20 > >=20 > > out that the 15 volumes of HPBs Collected Writings > > were > > now online on the following site in the Netherlands. > >=20 > > http://tonh.net/theosofie/hpb_cw_online/ > >=20 > >=20 > > the > > permission of Quest Books/Theosophical Publishing > > House (Wheaton, Illinois) to put all of this material > > online! > >=20 > >=20 > > about this from the website's owner. > >=20 > >=20 > > surprised that this project was undertaken without > > prior consultation and obtaining approval from Quest > > Books. > >=20 > >=20 > > COLLECTED WRITINGS on an inexpensive CD-ROM. > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > http://collectedwritings.net > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > http://hpb.cc > > ------------------ > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 _____________________________________________________________________ _______________ > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail=20 > > (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi? +_u=3Dcarlosaveline&_l=3D1,1162303760.114534.30575.almora.hst.terra.com.b r,5735,Des15,Des15 > >=20 > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 30/10/2006 /=20 Vers=E3o: 4.4.00/4884 > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From tonh@xs4all.nl Wed Nov 01 01:00:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: ton.den.hartog@tonh.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 907 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 09:00:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 09:00:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-vbr10.xs4all.nl) (194.109.24.30) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 09:00:33 -0000 Received: from donald64 (tonh.xs4all.nl [213.84.241.105]) by smtp-vbr10.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with SMTP id kA190Nhg037279 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:00:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ton.den.hartog@tonh.net) Message-ID: <015d01c6fd94$2bd11e30$0100000a@donald64> To: Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:00:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Originating-IP: 194.109.24.30 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Ton den Hartog" From: "Ton den Hartog" Subject: tesst X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85652351; y=12kTJAMWXUga5qHogJJiDbG5aopDnXoVtdegyybcO3I-tQhxTK-X X-Yahoo-Profile: tondenhartog Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36750 test, can I write here ?? Ton den Hartog [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Wed Nov 01 01:45:36 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65109 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 09:44:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m39.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 09:44:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15a.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.187.158) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 09:44:31 -0000 Received: from [66.163.187.122] by n15.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 09:42:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by t3.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 09:42:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.79] by t5.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 09:42:20 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 09:42:20 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <015d01c6fd94$2bd11e30$0100000a@donald64> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.163.187.158 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.165 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: tesst X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=uWJo61IJ5hcjaNalJgkYGfZ_sy-4gMa2XqSZaVZwGzLrKwXg X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36751 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Ton den Hartog" wrote: > test, can I write here ?? > Ton den Hartog Yes, we see you, from Moscow, at least ;) Welcome, Ton! From carl.ek@mail.com Wed Nov 01 01:56:29 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carl.ek@mail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83546 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 09:55:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 09:55:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16c.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.187.207) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 09:55:16 -0000 Received: from [66.163.187.123] by n16.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 09:55:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by t4.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 09:55:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.71] by t7.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 09:55:15 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 09:55:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.163.187.207 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 144.139.87.140 From: "Carl" Subject: Re: tesst X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=280232260; y=VUDDruA5xR6jBZ4UF9Hp728EzVxqXUgnflTKT7HpNjCsJg X-Yahoo-Profile: ek_carl X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36752 And in Melbourne also! Welcome! And fight Mr. Bland back! Carl --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Konstantin Zaitzev"=20 wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Ton den Hartog" wrote: >=20 > > test, can I write here ?? > > Ton den Hartog >=20 > Yes, we see you, from Moscow, at least ;) > Welcome, Ton! > From tonh@xs4all.nl Wed Nov 01 02:18:17 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: ton.den.hartog@tonh.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2440 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 10:14:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 10:14:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-vbr8.xs4all.nl) (194.109.24.28) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 10:14:42 -0000 Received: from donald64 (tonh.xs4all.nl [213.84.241.105]) by smtp-vbr8.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with SMTP id kA1AAN82072131 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:10:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ton.den.hartog@tonh.net) Message-ID: <019301c6fd9d$f308f0a0$0100000a@donald64> To: References: <015d01c6fd94$2bd11e30$0100000a@donald64> Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:10:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Originating-IP: 194.109.24.28 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Ton den Hartog" From: "Ton den Hartog" Subject: Re: Theos-World test X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85652351; y=rnsZkPpLrO3UdY9zDZ885D4Bcu7ewm8PccdTxLMwEJzzGYNf5ss1 X-Yahoo-Profile: tondenhartog Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36753 Sorry for this message, a previous message never made it and I hate seeing a lot of typing disappear to /dev/null. Yes I am the creator of the online Collected Wrtings that had to be removed :-( At least now comments can be sent to me directly :-) Ton den Hartog ----- Original Message ----- From: Ton den Hartog To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:00 AM Subject: Theos-World tesst test, can I write here ?? Ton den Hartog [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Wed Nov 01 04:40:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24813 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 10:45:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 10:45:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17c.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.187.208) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 10:45:23 -0000 Received: from [66.163.187.122] by n17.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 10:42:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by t3.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 10:42:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.78] by t6.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 10:42:52 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 10:42:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <019301c6fd9d$f308f0a0$0100000a@donald64> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.163.187.208 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.165 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Collected Wrtings re: test X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=SD7dFahYu8GLUwve991qcQMwMsgZpYkvq1kNO5lhwRdKQpWk X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36754 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Ton den Hartog" wrote: > Yes I am the creator of the online Collected Wrtings that had > to be removed :-( At least now comments can be sent to me=20 directly :-)=20 One comment: as I remarked earlier, some text properties were lost. That could be avoided, if you'd copy from CD edition into the=20 clipboard, paste into MS Word and then save in html format. Also the title field contained the text "untitled document", while it=20 should contain the name of article. It would make search more easy. I hope you shall be able to make these improvements for the next=20 version of online edition. It is not improbable that the problem with=20 TPH could be solved by peaceful means. From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Wed Nov 01 05:09:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40779 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 13:04:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 13:04:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO burta.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.199) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 13:04:28 -0000 Received: from caliope.hst.terra.com.br (caliope.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.8]) by burta.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id B878D4B78130 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:02:52 +0000 (UTC) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 3e420db440c4c5813c1057618ab03a78 Received-SPF: pass (caliope.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.8 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.8; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by caliope.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4682820094 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:02:52 -0300 (BRT) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:02:51 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.24.59.52 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.199 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: To Ton den Hartog X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=vDekUOEEEfSIRTPJQWEAzjf19WBcxwI_bnFoDUfmgTrLePI-tb8BQqc X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36755 Dear Ton, Congratulations for your good effort, Carlos Cardoso Aveline, from Brazil.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:10:25 +0100 Assunto:Re: Theos-World test > Sorry for this message, a previous message never made it and I hate seein= g a lot of typing disappear to /dev/null.=20 >=20 > Yes I am the creator of the online Collected Wrtings that had to be remov= ed :-( At least now comments can be sent to me directly :-)=20 >=20 > Ton den Hartog >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Ton den Hartog=20 > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:00 AM > Subject: Theos-World tesst >=20 >=20 > test, can I write here ?? >=20 > Ton den Hartog >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1162376302.877434.1494.curepipe.hst.terra.com.br,4167,Des15,Des1= 5 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 / Vers?o: 4.4.00= /4885 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Wed Nov 01 05:13:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49096 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 13:10:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 13:10:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bundure.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.195) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 13:10:25 -0000 Received: from camenana.hst.terra.com.br (camenana.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.12]) by bundure.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1419F9A039F for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:08:23 +0000 (UTC) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 13e19483e9a1b47976c79572279cfed6 Received-SPF: pass (camenana.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.12 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.12; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by camenana.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F554E0109 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:08:22 -0300 (BRT) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:08:22 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.24.59.52 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.195 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: Betty Bland & BCW Permissions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=JNjxNCsiHCyPL6KwitujgTZvAtTlsXJmWSwHciqm30uKoYEhOX1ySQg X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36756 Carl, I think you are right.=20 I guess you are referring in your posting to Mrs. Betty Bland, the lady who= now presides the Adyar T.S. in the USA. Regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:15:09 -0000 Assunto:Theos-World Re: BCW Permissions > Did de Zirkoff give Wheaton/Quest Books/TPH the copyright of BCW, or=20 > has anyone at all the copyrights of this material? H.P. Blavatsky's=20 > relatives, any T.S., or what or who? If not. This copyright of the=20 > BCW only is in the "head" (or what ever now it is, together with a=20 > lot of other strange thing) of Quest Books, so what has Ton den=20 > Hartog then to be afraid of? Ok, Mr. Bland could take him to court,=20 > but then I think we all have to support him (den Hartog), with our=20 > pen and our money. >=20 > Carl >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20 > wrote: > > > > Jake, > >=20 > > You strike a central issue here.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Carlos.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > >=20 > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > >=20 > > C=F3pia: > >=20 > > Data:Tue, 31 Oct 2006 05:47:43 -0800 (PST) > >=20 > > Assunto:Theos-World BCW Permissions > >=20 > > > BCW online and "Permissions" > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Dan says that the Blavatsky Collected=20 > > > Writings online, were put there without=20 > > > permission of Quest & Theosophical Publishing=20 > > > House. I say skrew 'em. They've had them=20 > > > for up to 40 yrs (the original vols. were=20 > > > published independently by Zirkoff) and=20 > > > that's long enough. They certainly don't=20 > > > care much about publishing rights - unless=20 > > > its their own - as can be seen by Algeo=20 > > > stealing and plagiarizing perhaps the whole=20 > > > of John Cooper's editorial work on Vol. I=20 > > > of "HPB Letters." The work is de Zirkoff's=20 > > > - not Quest's. One wonders why the largest=20 > > > TS - Wheaton/Adyar - has to go Outside=20 > > > their own largest organization to get any=20 > > > quality scholars - de Zirkoff and Barborka,=20 > > > for instance, were both Point Loma people.=20 > > > A good question is - since groups like=20 > > > ULT and Pasadena have put all their=20 > > > literature online - why hasn't Quest/Wheaton=20 > > > done the same thing? The work on the=20 > > > BCW CD (a good thing!) is the work of=20 > > > another nearly Independent in the Phillipines=20 > > > - Vincent Hao Chin (?). Always work by=20 > > > independents - which Wheaton scarfs up! > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Plain txt BCW on line at: > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > http://tonh.net/theosofie/hpb_cw_online/ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Three cheers for Hartog! > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > - jaqua > > >=20 > > > -------------- > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > <7. HPB's Collected Writings Online: UPDATE > > > Posted by: "danielhcaldwell" > > > danielhcaldwell@...=20 > > > danielhcaldwell > > > Date: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:33 pm (PST) > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > out that the 15 volumes of HPBs Collected Writings > > > were > > > now online on the following site in the Netherlands. > > >=20 > > > http://tonh.net/theosofie/hpb_cw_online/ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > the > > > permission of Quest Books/Theosophical Publishing > > > House (Wheaton, Illinois) to put all of this material > > > online! > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > about this from the website's owner. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > surprised that this project was undertaken without > > > prior consultation and obtaining approval from Quest > > > Books. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > COLLECTED WRITINGS on an inexpensive CD-ROM. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > http://collectedwritings.net > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > http://hpb.cc > > > ------------------ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > _____________________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail=20 > > > (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi? > +_u=3Dcarlosaveline&_l=3D1,1162303760.114534.30575.almora.hst.terra.com.b > r,5735,Des15,Des15 > > >=20 > > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 30/10/2006 /=20 > Vers=E3o: 4.4.00/4884 > > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ > >=20 > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1162370673.238796.10552.alcuta.terra.com.br,7578,Des15,Des15 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.4.= 00/4885 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Wed Nov 01 05:18:28 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65003 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 13:13:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 13:13:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO buraja.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.198) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 13:13:02 -0000 Received: from cosmoledo.terra.com.br (cosmoledo.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.14]) by buraja.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id E76F122A4065 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:11:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: acae98f8f361fe41135cea5370937f6c Received-SPF: pass (cosmoledo.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.14 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.14; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by cosmoledo.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E252A2819D for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:11:29 -0300 (BRT) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:11:29 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.24.59.52 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.198 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: To Konstantin X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=YJKT7wbX4h6tFZQEhpcm9PoNre0RNLZE9bAkp6ajjKwLdeOgDlIeEqQ X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36757 Konstantin, By the way, I vaguely remember you previously told us of a meeting on HPB's= work which would take place in Russia (or perhaps in Ukraine) some time i= n 2006. Did it happen? How was it? It would be of interest in Theos-talk.=20 Regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:39:53 -0000 Assunto:Theos-World BCW Offline > Dear Carlos, >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20 > wrote: >=20 > > You strike a central issue here.=20 >=20 > >> House. I say skrew 'em. They've had them=20 > >> for up to 40 yrs (the original vols. were=20 > >> published independently by Zirkoff) and=20 > >> that's long enough. >=20 > Yes, I agree that the copyright is dubious. > The HPB works are in public domain, only notes and compliation can be=20 > copyrighted, but they are by Zirkoff, not by TPH. As far I know it=20 > was a joint project of TS Pasadena & TS Adyar. >=20 > Did anyone succeed to download htmls before they were removed? > I think it would be a good idea to put them online again, perhaps, on=20 > the ULT site. It surely will conform the objects of ULT declaration. >=20 > The BCW CD cannot replace the online edition because it has search=20 > system much inferior to any internet search engine like Google which=20 > can be applied to online edition. >=20 > From the other hand, CD is better because it keeps italics and other=20 > font properties which were often lost in the online edition. > Yet it doesn't matter if we use this edition for search only. > Later the old files can be gradually replaced by the newer, keepeing=20 > the original formatting. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1162370458.48842.8086.sotovento.hst.terra.com.br,4672,Des15,Des1= 5 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.4.= 00/4885 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Wed Nov 01 05:31:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88088 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 13:24:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 13:24:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO buraja.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.198) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 13:24:30 -0000 Received: from calivil.hst.terra.com.br (calivil.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.9]) by buraja.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48DF522A4165; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:24:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: e99f8def93b237754fb3a974c49af2f5 Received-SPF: pass (calivil.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.9 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.9; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by calivil.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334AA1248121; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:24:25 -0300 (BRT) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:24:24 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: "theos-talk" Cc: "cardosoaveline" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.24.59.52 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.198 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: THE MAP OF THE MOVEMENT X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=ISeE7opVwcNb86geuCfGX0fJFphM-zWsXntZEhuA47ERJsnxVi6MZwg X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36758 Carl, Thanks a lot. Summing up: in how many countries do you believe the Pasadena is active rig= ht now? Some ten, perhaps?=20 Your testimony gives us a sad picture, since the Pasadena Theos. Society ha= s an enormous and central importance for the movement as a whole, and one w= ould expect and hope it is as strong as possible.=20=20=20=20=20 But your testimony can make some of us think ahead and see the need for act= ion. Thinking of the movement as a whole, attachment to dead letter and avoiding= 'conflicting issues' may be among the 'secret' causes of this tendency, wh= ich one can see in every quarter and section of the movement, in greater or= smaller intensity. What can -- and what should be done then?=20 Any ideas about causes and propositions as to the future?=20 I would like to hear about this.=20 Regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 03:55:17 -0000 Assunto:Theos-World Re: THE MAP OF THE MOVEMENT > Carlos, and Friends, >=20 > What you have heard about the Pasadena TS in the US is true. >=20 > The Sections of the Pasadena TS, which I have personal regular=20 > contacts with, are those in Australia, Sweden and Finland.=20 >=20 > In Australia (the Australasian Section), there are two groups. One,=20 > the largest (between 15 and 20 persons per meetings, and of this 5-6=20 > are members) are in Melbourne (they meet in their own library). This=20 > group has two public lectures per month (the second and fourth=20 > Saturday), and the other one is in Brisbane. They are around five,=20 > and meet occasionally in one members home. The Section has a=20 > Newsletter, with four numbers per year, that are both online and=20 > printed. The Section has not had any publishing activity for many=20 > years.=20 >=20 > In Sweden is there only one study group (they meet once every=20 > fortnight, between 15 and 20 persons per meetings, and of this 2 are=20 > members) left, and this one is in Gothenburg. The Swedish Section=20 > publishes a magazine with four numbers per year, called "Teosofisk=20 > Forum". This is not as the other Pasadena publications, a translated=20 > version of Sunrise. It has its own profile, and in that matter very=20 > rare. The Theosophical Library in Stockholm was closed last year,=20 > together with the publishing company (the last book stock was given=20 > away for some six months ago to the Theosophy Company in Malm=F6). >=20 > The Finish Section exists only on the paper today. There have been=20 > no activities, for many years.=20 >=20 > One the other hand, so are the British Section probably the=20 > strongest one today, and the only one with active members under 50=20 > (sic!). But I know one in person in Sweden, so one can find a few=20 > others. Please don't take this as a joke, it is the cold fact. >=20 > I have visit Pasadena groups/branches in seven countries, and know=20 > that the biggest problem within the Pasadena TS today, is that the=20 > average age of its members are around 75, but they are also very=20 > few. It is often only one or two person within the whole sections=20 > that carries out more or less all the work. The HQ knows very well=20 > that this doesn't go any more, and Rand Grubb has said that he plans=20 > to reorganize the whole Society, but has not said yet what he is=20 > going to do.=20 >=20 > This is really sad! >=20 > The Point Loma groups are to be found in Germany and the Netherlands=20 > (seven groups which I know about). The most of them are very small,=20 > and some of them have problems with, sorry to call it that, "sect=20 > tendencies". Their "Leader" is the "one and only true Leader of the=20 > whole Theosophical Movement", and can therefore have problems with=20 > their contacts with "outsider". I had contact last year with one of=20 > this "Leaders", and I noticed this very well. But in Germany the=20 > T.S. in Germany (HQ in Berlin), which was founded by Dr. Franz=20 > Hartmann in 1897, is still quit strong and active in many places=20 > (the so called "H=FCbbe-Schleiden-society" was united whit this in=20 > 1969), and the strongest TS, more or less the same "size" as Adyar=20 > TS, in Germany. I have a list of the different theosophical=20 > societies and groups that are active today in Germany and the=20 > Netherlands, which I made when I was living in Germany last year. If=20 > anyone is interested, please tell me and I will post it here.=20 >=20 > Carl >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20 > wrote: > > > >=20 > > Friends, > >=20 > >=20 > > I hear that only a small number of Pasadena TS groups are still=20 > really active in the USA.=20 > >=20 > > Can anyone confirm that? And what about Pasadena groups outside=20 > the USA? > >=20 > > And Point Loma groups? I thought the diversity in the movement was=20 > much better and that Pasadena was much stronger. At least, their=20 > Theosophical University Press is strong -- that IS something.=20 > >=20 > > I know Adyar TS is also innerly weak in a number of countries.=20 > >=20 > > I believe, nay, I am sure the movement's weakness is seasonal,=20 > and it in fact prepares a new effort. > >=20 > > Regards, Carlos. > >=20 > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1162353819.820558.17267.sotovento.hst.terra.com.br,7516,Des15,De= s15 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.4.= 00/4885 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Wed Nov 01 05:40:01 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45214 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 13:32:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 13:32:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bungunia.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.196) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 13:32:37 -0000 Received: from calomba.hst.terra.com.br (calomba.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.11]) by bungunia.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1FA3C74175 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:31:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: bdd69e2a1387321612d25d106af51845 Received-SPF: pass (calomba.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.11 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.11; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by calomba.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85DFD31080B7 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:31:35 -0300 (BRT) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:31:35 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.24.59.52 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.196 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: On Liberal Cath. Church X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=Vk0IwVfOVCEFLWuw6DvkZue49anasOR9X6fQXPLWDiO6pXT4lC0T_W8 X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36759 Carl, Thanks. I did not know that.=20 In Brazil, the LCC priests have an influence on the Adyar TS and one of the= m presides it in the purest brand of Leadbeater's and Wedgwood's style.=20 I understand LCC is also influential in the USA, UK, Australia, and the N= etherlands. They are probably tolerated in Adyar. Tell me if I am wrong.=20 They are usually also involved in the so-called "theosophical masonry", cr= eated by John Algeo with support from Ms. Radha Burnier, as a split of=20 "Le Droit Humain".=20=20=20 Carlos.=20=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 07:22:43 -0000 Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: Fairness in presentation, Liberal Cath. Chur= ch > One most has to be clear of that there exist several different LCC- > groups. Some of those are "friendly" whit the Adyar-society, and=20 > some are not. They are not always even friendly whit each other. >=20 > Carl >=20 > The following are from Wikipedia. >=20 > About the Schisms in LCC >=20 >=20 > First Schism >=20 > In 1941, there was a schism in the Liberal Catholic Church in the=20 > United States, surrounding a controversy involving Bishop Charles=20 > Hampton, who, while he was himself a theosophist, wished to keep=20 > adherence to theosophical tenets optional for the clergy. This was=20 > in keeping with what was taken to be the original intent of the=20 > church's founders, who, although they were theosophists, wanted the=20 > church to remain primarily Catholic and to be open to everyone.=20 > While some branches of the church place more esoteric, lifestyle and=20 > dietary restrictions on the clergy, the church as a whole did not,=20 > and still does not, require membership in the Theosophical Society. >=20 > Legal battle >=20 > The controversy surrounding Bishop Hampton led to a legal battle in=20 > the United States which eventually split into two different=20 > divsions, both of which claimed to be the Liberal Catholic Church.=20 > Frank W. Pigott, the church's 3rd Presiding Bishop in England, who=20 > held to a more theosophical ideal for the church, removed Hampton=20 > and then ordered the confiscation of certain church property at the=20 > Regionary headquarters in California and forced the resignation of=20 > those clergy under Hampton who refused to support his new episcopal=20 > replacement. At the time, the majority of Liberal Catholics in the=20 > United States supported Hampton and saw his removal from the office=20 > of Regionary and the other subsequent precedings as a breach of=20 > canon law and a violation of some of the laws of California under=20 > which the church had been incorporated in America. These clergy=20 > continued on their own and won the right to be called the Liberal=20 > Catholic Church in the U.S. (while being called the Liberal Catholic=20 > Church International in the rest of the world). Those who followed=20 > Bishop Pigott in England became known in America as The Liberal=20 > Catholic Church, Province of the United States of America. Both=20 > divisions have similar structures of government and administration. > After Frank W. Pigott retired as the Presiding Bishop, and after=20 > attempts at a reconcilation, some of the clergy in the LCCI returned=20 > to The Liberal Catholic Church, Province of the United States of=20 > America. Bishop Hampton died before the litigation was settled.=20 > While some clergy wish for more cooperation between the two=20 > Divisions, they still exist independently. >=20 > Second Schism? >=20 > In 2003 there was another schism in the Liberal Catholic Church=20 > worldwide. The main issues in this split was the ordination of women=20 > to the Holy Orders. Again, as in the case of the first schism, it is=20 > difficult to say who continues the tradition and who is the=20 > schismatic. What is certain is that some parishes in the Dutch,=20 > Belgium and Canada provinces who represented the "liberal" wing of=20 > the Liberal Catholic Church worldwide broke away from the "mother=20 > church" still using the name The Liberal Catholic Church even though=20 > they left the church. The "mother church" opened "The Order of Our=20 > Lady" for women seeking ordinations in 2000. Since both groups call=20 > themselves The Liberal Catholic Church, distinguishing between the=20 > two can be confusing. Significantly, in 2004 Regionary Bishop for=20 > Sweden, Sten-Bertil Jakobson declared for the right of women to be=20 > ordained, and he joined the newly formed movement in the Netherlands=20 > and Belgium. He was followed by the Liberal Catholic Congregations=20 > in Austria, Demnark, Germany, Cameroon, and both Congos. Several new=20 > congregations have been formed in England and the USA. The=20 > membership of this movement is estimated to exceed 50,000 members. > At their General Episcopal Synod in 2004, the Liberal Catholic=20 > Church International also began the ordination of women up to and=20 > including the Order of Bishop. > In 1982 Ernest W. Jackson had resigned from Province of Canada and=20 > started a group called The Liberal Catholic Church - Theosophia=20 > Synod. The group was always very small, but on May 15, 2005, under=20 > the leadership of John Schwarz III, they joined with the progressive=20 > Dutch, Belgium and Canada branch of the LCC. The Theosophia Synod no=20 > longer maintains a separate existence. >=20 > Differences of the Divisions >=20 > The General Episcopal Synod of The Liberal Catholic Church worldwide=20 > requires its clergy to believe in such theosophical tenets as=20 > reincarnation and the ascended masters. It encourages its priests=20 > and its bishops to have a vegetarian diet and to refrain from using=20 > tobacco as well as alcohol. Significantly it also continues to=20 > require deacons, priests and bishops to be male. In this regard, The=20 > Liberal Catholic Church follows the same practise as the Roman=20 > Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. The Liberal=20 > Catholic Church International does not as a group require any belief=20 > in theosophical tenets, while it continues to accept them if they=20 > are the personal choice of the individual. Since 2004, the Liberal=20 > Catholic Church International opens the ordination of women to all=20 > Holy Orders up to and including bishop. The Liberal Catholic Church=20 > (Dutch, Belgium, Britain and Canada), retains the emphasis on the=20 > theosophical tenets, but practices ordination of women to Holy=20 > Orders and requires its clergy to hold the ordination of women as a=20 > matter of church belief >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Barnhart"=20 > wrote: > > > > The Church of St. Francis ,The Liberal Catholic Church in Villa=20 > Park, Illinois, USA is about 5 miles or 7km from Wheaton,=20 > Illinois,USA where the headquarters of=20 > > the Theosophical Society In America {with International=20 > Headquarters Adyar, (Madras), India] is located.=20 > >=20 > > It is worthwhile to look at the Links on the church's web site=20 > http://www.liberalcatholic.com/ as they link to the Adyar website=20 > of http://www.anandgholap.net writings of Besant and Leadbeater.=20 > Also the link to Besant's "THE ANCIENT WRITINGS" the first=20 > paragraph in the Preface says: > > This book is intended to place in the hands of the general reader=20 > an epitome of theosophical teachings, sufficiently plain to serve=20 > the elementary student, and sufficiently full to lay a sound=20 > foundation for further knowledge. It is hoped that it may serve as=20 > an introduction to the profounder works of H.P.Blavatsky, and be a=20 > convenient steppingstone to their study. > >=20 > >=20 > > One may also note that the church website has a link to Quest=20 > Books, the publishing arm of The T.S. in America w/ headquarters=20 > Adaro.=20 > >=20 > > Now, is there any question remaining of the intertwining of The=20 > Liberal Catholic Church and The T.S. In America-Adyar ??? > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1162368107.646550.13785.curepipe.hst.terra.com.br,10372,20031127= 114101,20031127114101 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.4.= 00/4885 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonh@xs4all.nl Wed Nov 01 05:51:13 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: ton.den.hartog@tonh.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61360 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 13:48:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 13:48:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-vbr16.xs4all.nl) (194.109.24.36) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 13:48:58 -0000 Received: from donald64 (tonh.xs4all.nl [213.84.241.105]) by smtp-vbr16.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with SMTP id kA1DUhsp085179 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:30:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ton.den.hartog@tonh.net) Message-ID: <020a01c6fdb9$efa4a640$0100000a@donald64> To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:30:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Originating-IP: 194.109.24.36 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Ton den Hartog" From: "Ton den Hartog" Subject: Re: Theos-World Collected Wrtings re: test X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85652351; y=divl7nyHsDrGewdPDUVaWcbLiQ29p2oBhY6k4qtUHVQPM4R-2Ejx X-Yahoo-Profile: tondenhartog Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36760 The "text properties" are not very important I would think ? Howver the layout was certainly lost ina serious way in some cases and is some work that yet had to be done. Pasting in Word is somethins that did not come up in me and is a worthwile tip for "the next time", if ever. I was surprised over it as I know that an applicatuion normally should put the selected contents in several formats in the Windows clipboard when the user says "copy". And I used a pretty advanced HTML editor for the Pasting. I don't know what "rich text" can do here but as the CDROM was pretty disappointing at time I was not suprised over the flaws I encountered. When the site is allowed again I may for a start begin with the Writings with layout-problems to recopy those via Word. Another isuue for a proper website version would a version of he paper version where I can can out of several pages to scan them as 1) many images are scanned in at a too low resolution and 2) some parts of the books were no included in the CDROM and have to be OCRed. I do have access to a set of books but promised the owner to keep them intact as you will understand :-) Also sometimes HPB used Hebrew in the texts and these were are not properly on the CDROM also and need to be searched for and scanned in. Ton den Hartog ----- Original Message ----- From: Konstantin Zaitzev To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 11:42 AM Subject: Theos-World Collected Wrtings re: test --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Ton den Hartog" wrote: > Yes I am the creator of the online Collected Wrtings that had > to be removed :-( At least now comments can be sent to me directly :-) One comment: as I remarked earlier, some text properties were lost. That could be avoided, if you'd copy from CD edition into the clipboard, paste into MS Word and then save in html format. Also the title field contained the text "untitled document", while it should contain the name of article. It would make search more easy. I hope you shall be able to make these improvements for the next version of online edition. It is not improbable that the problem with TPH could be solved by peaceful means. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonh@xs4all.nl Wed Nov 01 05:57:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: ton.den.hartog@tonh.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26791 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 13:42:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 13:42:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl) (194.109.24.27) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 13:42:37 -0000 Received: from donald64 (tonh.xs4all.nl [213.84.241.105]) by smtp-vbr7.xs4all.nl (8.13.8/8.13.8) with SMTP id kA1DaKBP070408 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:36:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ton.den.hartog@tonh.net) Message-ID: <021701c6fdba$b83da570$0100000a@donald64> To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:36:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Virus-Scanned: by XS4ALL Virus Scanner X-Originating-IP: 194.109.24.27 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Ton den Hartog" From: "Ton den Hartog" Subject: Re: Theos-World Betty Bland & BCW Permissions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85652351; y=NoEBGuNQ0HqRVl2ZIEljG8rK6lADSd_LLhxp4lfxcpmqxeLw7BJy X-Yahoo-Profile: tondenhartog Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36761 I don't think I want to let this go so far as that I end up in court..... E= ven WITH your money :-) But I DO hope it will trigger a few people who read= this group that can trigger other people they know about the RIDICULOUS si= tuation that seems to exist. I understand that HPB is cremated but otherwise she would certainly turn in= het grave if she heard about this that her (HER !!) can not be published o= n internet for free 100 years after she died.... Ton ----- Original Message -----=20 From: carlosaveline=20 To: theos-talk=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 2:08 PM Subject: Theos-World Betty Bland & BCW Permissions Carl, I think you are right.=20 I guess you are referring in your posting to Mrs. Betty Bland, the lady w= ho now presides the Adyar T.S. in the USA. Regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:15:09 -0000 Assunto:Theos-World Re: BCW Permissions > Did de Zirkoff give Wheaton/Quest Books/TPH the copyright of BCW, or=20 > has anyone at all the copyrights of this material? H.P. Blavatsky's=20 > relatives, any T.S., or what or who? If not. This copyright of the=20 > BCW only is in the "head" (or what ever now it is, together with a=20 > lot of other strange thing) of Quest Books, so what has Ton den=20 > Hartog then to be afraid of? Ok, Mr. Bland could take him to court,=20 > but then I think we all have to support him (den Hartog), with our=20 > pen and our money. >=20 > Carl >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20 > wrote: > > > > Jake, > >=20 > > You strike a central issue here.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Carlos.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > >=20 > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > >=20 > > C=F3pia: > >=20 > > Data:Tue, 31 Oct 2006 05:47:43 -0800 (PST) > >=20 > > Assunto:Theos-World BCW Permissions > >=20 > > > BCW online and "Permissions" > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Dan says that the Blavatsky Collected=20 > > > Writings online, were put there without=20 > > > permission of Quest & Theosophical Publishing=20 > > > House. I say skrew 'em. They've had them=20 > > > for up to 40 yrs (the original vols. were=20 > > > published independently by Zirkoff) and=20 > > > that's long enough. They certainly don't=20 > > > care much about publishing rights - unless=20 > > > its their own - as can be seen by Algeo=20 > > > stealing and plagiarizing perhaps the whole=20 > > > of John Cooper's editorial work on Vol. I=20 > > > of "HPB Letters." The work is de Zirkoff's=20 > > > - not Quest's. One wonders why the largest=20 > > > TS - Wheaton/Adyar - has to go Outside=20 > > > their own largest organization to get any=20 > > > quality scholars - de Zirkoff and Barborka,=20 > > > for instance, were both Point Loma people.=20 > > > A good question is - since groups like=20 > > > ULT and Pasadena have put all their=20 > > > literature online - why hasn't Quest/Wheaton=20 > > > done the same thing? The work on the=20 > > > BCW CD (a good thing!) is the work of=20 > > > another nearly Independent in the Phillipines=20 > > > - Vincent Hao Chin (?). Always work by=20 > > > independents - which Wheaton scarfs up! > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Plain txt BCW on line at: > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > http://tonh.net/theosofie/hpb_cw_online/ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Three cheers for Hartog! > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > - jaqua > > >=20 > > > -------------- > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > <7. HPB's Collected Writings Online: UPDATE > > > Posted by: "danielhcaldwell" > > > danielhcaldwell@...=20 > > > danielhcaldwell > > > Date: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:33 pm (PST) > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > out that the 15 volumes of HPBs Collected Writings > > > were > > > now online on the following site in the Netherlands. > > >=20 > > > http://tonh.net/theosofie/hpb_cw_online/ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > the > > > permission of Quest Books/Theosophical Publishing > > > House (Wheaton, Illinois) to put all of this material > > > online! > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > about this from the website's owner. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > surprised that this project was undertaken without > > > prior consultation and obtaining approval from Quest > > > Books. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > COLLECTED WRITINGS on an inexpensive CD-ROM. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > http://collectedwritings.net > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > http://hpb.cc > > > ------------------ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > __________________________________________________________ > _______________ > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail=20 > > > (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi? > +_u=3Dcarlosaveline&_l=3D1,1162303760.114534.30575.almora.hst.terra.com= .b > r,5735,Des15,Des15 > > >=20 > > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 30/10/2006 /=20 > Vers=E3o: 4.4.00/4884 > > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ > >=20 > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosav= eline&_l=3D1,1162370673.238796.10552.alcuta.terra.com.br,7578,Des15,Des15 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.= 4.00/4885 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Wed Nov 01 05:57:16 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31300 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 13:43:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 13:43:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO buraja.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.198) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 13:43:55 -0000 Received: from camenana.hst.terra.com.br (camenana.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.12]) by buraja.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7F422A408B for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:40:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 46bf5f4a94ccf750ab23896a98865419 Received-SPF: pass (camenana.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.12 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.12; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by camenana.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44F64E00B2 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:40:31 -0300 (BRT) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:40:31 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.24.59.52 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.198 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: To Carl on "Successors" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=mQHjKaJufVirizyrfsQvEd1V79gHy3KWhth7O1Z06eBJepGFjoqkgco X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36762 Carl, I still don't see any real source as to Robert Crosbie's supposed claims t= o be a successor of HPB's. On the contrary, he has written against the ve= ry idea of successorship. Can you materialialize any real source to that ru= mour? Or is it something which was said by people who wanted to criticize = the ULT or Crosbie?=20=20 I tend to be this is fiction. We have to constantly re-examine our sources= ...=20 Regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 01:27:47 -0000 Assunto:Theos-World Re: =E2=80=9CSuccessors=E2=80=9D!? > Chuck! >=20 > I didn't say anything about that "personalities" should matter. For=20 > me, the question about succeeding is stupid, hence I can't see that=20 > anyone could succeed nether Blavatsky, nor Judge, in occult matters=20 > as Teachers (in till the next Messenger from the Lodge, of curse).=20 > As Leader/President of the T.S. is it something else. My point was=20 > as I wrote; "which was faithful, to the real and true impulse of the=20 > Masters after W.Q.J. past away, and followed the True Theosophical=20 > Path", instead of only discus on what his or hers claims was based=20 > on (right or wrong). In other words, where do we find or found this=20 > after W.Q.J. death. Which Theosophical group/succeeder as "leader"=20 > (I don't mean this in a Pasadena terminological way) was actually=20 > true to the Holy Cause? Mrs. Tingley, Mr. Crosbie and Mr. Hargrove=20 > were al, more or less, claiming to succeed Mr. Judge in some way.=20 > Mrs. Tingley claimed to be it occult (as Teacher), and Mr. Crosbie=20 > and Mr. Hargrove to be the "visible head" of the true Third Section=20 > (and Second Section in Crosbie's case also, if Mr. Hargrove hade any=20 > claims in this matter I do not know for sure) and the/an agent of=20 > the Master. >=20 > We need Theosophical organizations, in some way for many reasons.=20 > Then, as well as today. And we need Theosophical organizations which=20 > are faithful to the real and true impulse of the Masters (the Cause,=20 > the Doctrines and Teachings and so on), and who follows the True=20 > Theosophical Path. >=20 > And Chuck! You are on this "mailing list" also, so that most include=20 > you to!?=20 >=20 > Carl >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@... wrote: > > > >=20 > > In a message dated 10/31/2006 4:14:59 AM Central Standard Time,=20 > > carl.ek@... writes: > >=20 > > Do any serious Theosophist or Student of Theosophy really thinks=20 > that=20 > > anyone could, what so ever, succeed Blavatsky or Judge? Isn't the=20 > > question, which was faithful, to the real and true impulse of the=20 > > Masters after W.Q.J. past away, and followed the True=20 > Theosophical=20 > > Path? So was it Mrs. Tingley or Mr. Crosbie, or even Mr.=20 > Hargrove?=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > I don't see why it would even matter. Theosophy is not about the=20 > > personalities but about the ideas. > >=20 > > Other than the folks on these mailing lists, no one cares. > >=20 > > Chuck the Heretic > >=20 > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1162344821.313954.8185.aldavila.hst.terra.com.br,5931,Des15,Des1= 5 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.4.= 00/4885 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Wed Nov 01 06:12:38 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63611 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 14:09:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 14:09:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO buraja.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.198) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 14:09:48 -0000 Received: from camenana.hst.terra.com.br (camenana.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.12]) by buraja.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C35B22A41BE for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:09:46 +0000 (UTC) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: edbb844dfea75db39f9f04e5c4b83b74 Received-SPF: pass (camenana.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.12 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.12; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by camenana.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060DF4E017F for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:09:46 -0300 (BRT) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:09:45 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.24.59.52 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.198 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: Bland, Algeo & BCW Permissions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=l8wF6v6Bu1AXVDt1kRx-0kN_NfbKcE50SeDCbfBbLEzJH306Dc3EX3Y X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36763 Ton, Yes, it seems the Adyar TS in the USA and John Algeo have a pattern of thre= atening with lawsuits and in some cases actually starting them.=20 Carlos.=20 =20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:36:22 +0100 Assunto:Re: Theos-World Betty Bland & BCW Permissions > I don't think I want to let this go so far as that I end up in court.....= Even WITH your money :-) But I DO hope it will trigger a few people who re= ad this group that can trigger other people they know about the RIDICULOUS = situation that seems to exist. >=20 > I understand that HPB is cremated but otherwise she would certainly turn = in het grave if she heard about this that her (HER !!) can not be published= on internet for free 100 years after she died.... >=20 > Ton >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: carlosaveline=20 > To: theos-talk=20 > Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 2:08 PM > Subject: Theos-World Betty Bland & BCW Permissions >=20 >=20 > Carl, >=20 > I think you are right.=20 >=20 > I guess you are referring in your posting to Mrs. Betty Bland, the lady w= ho now presides the Adyar T.S. in the USA. >=20 > Regards, Carlos.=20 >=20 > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >=20 > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >=20 > C=F3pia: >=20 > Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 08:15:09 -0000 >=20 > Assunto:Theos-World Re: BCW Permissions >=20 > > Did de Zirkoff give Wheaton/Quest Books/TPH the copyright of BCW, or=20 > > has anyone at all the copyrights of this material? H.P. Blavatsky's=20 > > relatives, any T.S., or what or who? If not. This copyright of the=20 > > BCW only is in the "head" (or what ever now it is, together with a=20 > > lot of other strange thing) of Quest Books, so what has Ton den=20 > > Hartog then to be afraid of? Ok, Mr. Bland could take him to court,=20 > > but then I think we all have to support him (den Hartog), with our=20 > > pen and our money. > >=20 > > Carl > >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20 > > wrote: > > > > > > Jake, > > >=20 > > > You strike a central issue here.=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Carlos.=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > >=20 > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > >=20 > > > C=F3pia: > > >=20 > > > Data:Tue, 31 Oct 2006 05:47:43 -0800 (PST) > > >=20 > > > Assunto:Theos-World BCW Permissions > > >=20 > > > > BCW online and "Permissions" > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Dan says that the Blavatsky Collected=20 > > > > Writings online, were put there without=20 > > > > permission of Quest & Theosophical Publishing=20 > > > > House. I say skrew 'em. They've had them=20 > > > > for up to 40 yrs (the original vols. were=20 > > > > published independently by Zirkoff) and=20 > > > > that's long enough. They certainly don't=20 > > > > care much about publishing rights - unless=20 > > > > its their own - as can be seen by Algeo=20 > > > > stealing and plagiarizing perhaps the whole=20 > > > > of John Cooper's editorial work on Vol. I=20 > > > > of "HPB Letters." The work is de Zirkoff's=20 > > > > - not Quest's. One wonders why the largest=20 > > > > TS - Wheaton/Adyar - has to go Outside=20 > > > > their own largest organization to get any=20 > > > > quality scholars - de Zirkoff and Barborka,=20 > > > > for instance, were both Point Loma people.=20 > > > > A good question is - since groups like=20 > > > > ULT and Pasadena have put all their=20 > > > > literature online - why hasn't Quest/Wheaton=20 > > > > done the same thing? The work on the=20 > > > > BCW CD (a good thing!) is the work of=20 > > > > another nearly Independent in the Phillipines=20 > > > > - Vincent Hao Chin (?). Always work by=20 > > > > independents - which Wheaton scarfs up! > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Plain txt BCW on line at: > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > http://tonh.net/theosofie/hpb_cw_online/ > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Three cheers for Hartog! > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > - jaqua > > > >=20 > > > > -------------- > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > <7. HPB's Collected Writings Online: UPDATE > > > > Posted by: "danielhcaldwell" > > > > danielhcaldwell@...=20 > > > > danielhcaldwell > > > > Date: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:33 pm (PST) > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > out that the 15 volumes of HPBs Collected Writings > > > > were > > > > now online on the following site in the Netherlands. > > > >=20 > > > > http://tonh.net/theosofie/hpb_cw_online/ > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > the > > > > permission of Quest Books/Theosophical Publishing > > > > House (Wheaton, Illinois) to put all of this material > > > > online! > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > about this from the website's owner. > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > surprised that this project was undertaken without > > > > prior consultation and obtaining approval from Quest > > > > Books. > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > COLLECTED WRITINGS on an inexpensive CD-ROM. > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > http://collectedwritings.net > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > http://hpb.cc > > > > ------------------ > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > __________________________________________________________ > > _______________ > > > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail=20 > > > > (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > > > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > > > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi? > > +_u=3Dcarlosaveline&_l=3D1,1162303760.114534.30575.almora.hst.terra.com= .b > > r,5735,Des15,Des15 > > > >=20 > > > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > > > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 30/10/2006 /=20 > > Vers=E3o: 4.4.00/4884 > > > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosav= eline&_l=3D1,1162370673.238796.10552.alcuta.terra.com.br,7578,Des15,Des15 > >=20 > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.= 4.00/4885 > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ > >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1162389427.349465.20867.tulear.hst.terra.com.br,10017,Des15,Des1= 5 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.4.= 00/4885 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carl.ek@mail.com Wed Nov 01 06:13:27 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carl.ek@mail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63790 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 14:09:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 14:09:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 14:09:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n20.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 14:09:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.88] by t7.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 14:09:36 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:09:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.49 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 144.139.87.140 From: "Carl Ek" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?=93New=94_Yahoo_group_in_Swedish!?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=280232260; y=dOddlVXrwvhiMJwCyAWTMUOaNE3AcjCYI3RATjT1uvb0Qw X-Yahoo-Profile: ek_carl X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36764 I would like to inform those (everybody else to, of course) how speaks=20 a Scandinavian language, that there is a pretty new Theosophical group=20 here on Yahoo in Swedish, and that you are welcome to become a member=20 there. We are only a few members today, so the activity is still quit=20 low. But that we hope it soon will be better. More members, that's the=20 key! The name of the group is "Teosofi i Sverige". http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teosofi_i_sverige/ Carl From carl.ek@mail.com Wed Nov 01 06:13:47 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carl.ek@mail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5201 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 14:04:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 14:04:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.25) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 14:04:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n31.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 14:04:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.70] by t2.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 14:04:15 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:04:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.25 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 144.139.87.140 From: "Carl Ek" Subject: Re: THE MAP OF THE MOVEMENT X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=280232260; y=-Off_6nL_pyDdAiIx3mLIsVk1BAXUv6tiyijRS4-OHFhPg X-Yahoo-Profile: ek_carl X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36765 Carlos, As far as I know are there activities within the Pasadena TS today=20 in eight countries; the US, Canada (under the American Section), the=20 UK, Germany, Sweden, South Africa, Australia and the Netherlands.=20 This gives seven active Sections. There could be some other (minor)=20 groups (not Sections or Branches) to, but they are then not listed=20 in any directory and have only direct contacts with the HQ in=20 Pasadena.=20 If you ask me about my ideas on/for the future. I'm working today=20 together, in a group, with some other fellows (in Australia, the US=20 and Europe) on a "preliminary program" (n.b., this is only a working=20 name). I would be happy to inform you about this, but hence it still=20 far from finished, I don't put anything about it here (or any where=20 on the other hand either on the Web, what that matter). So if you=20 would like to know something about our work. Please e-mail private,=20 on carl.ek@mail.com. Best regards, Carl --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20 wrote: > > Carl, >=20 > Thanks a lot. >=20 > Summing up: in how many countries do you believe the Pasadena is=20 active right now? Some ten, perhaps?=20 >=20 > Your testimony gives us a sad picture, since the Pasadena Theos.=20 Society has an enormous and central importance for the movement as a=20 whole, and one would expect and hope it is as strong as=20 possible.=20=20=20=20=20 >=20 > But your testimony can make some of us think ahead and see the=20 need for action. >=20 > Thinking of the movement as a whole, attachment to dead letter and=20 avoiding 'conflicting issues' may be among the 'secret' causes of=20 this tendency, which one can see in every quarter and section of the=20 movement, in greater or smaller intensity. >=20 >=20 > What can -- and what should be done then?=20 >=20 > Any ideas about causes and propositions as to the future?=20 >=20 > I would like to hear about this.=20 >=20 >=20 > Regards, Carlos.=20 >=20 >=20 > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >=20 > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >=20 > C=F3pia: >=20 > Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 03:55:17 -0000 >=20 > Assunto:Theos-World Re: THE MAP OF THE MOVEMENT >=20 > > Carlos, and Friends, > >=20 > > What you have heard about the Pasadena TS in the US is true. > >=20 > > The Sections of the Pasadena TS, which I have personal regular=20 > > contacts with, are those in Australia, Sweden and Finland.=20 > >=20 > > In Australia (the Australasian Section), there are two groups.=20 One,=20 > > the largest (between 15 and 20 persons per meetings, and of this=20 5-6=20 > > are members) are in Melbourne (they meet in their own library).=20 This=20 > > group has two public lectures per month (the second and fourth=20 > > Saturday), and the other one is in Brisbane. They are around=20 five,=20 > > and meet occasionally in one members home. The Section has a=20 > > Newsletter, with four numbers per year, that are both online and=20 > > printed. The Section has not had any publishing activity for=20 many=20 > > years.=20 > >=20 > > In Sweden is there only one study group (they meet once every=20 > > fortnight, between 15 and 20 persons per meetings, and of this 2=20 are=20 > > members) left, and this one is in Gothenburg. The Swedish=20 Section=20 > > publishes a magazine with four numbers per year,=20 called "Teosofisk=20 > > Forum". This is not as the other Pasadena publications, a=20 translated=20 > > version of Sunrise. It has its own profile, and in that matter=20 very=20 > > rare. The Theosophical Library in Stockholm was closed last=20 year,=20 > > together with the publishing company (the last book stock was=20 given=20 > > away for some six months ago to the Theosophy Company in Malm=F6). > >=20 > > The Finish Section exists only on the paper today. There have=20 been=20 > > no activities, for many years.=20 > >=20 > > One the other hand, so are the British Section probably the=20 > > strongest one today, and the only one with active members under=20 50=20 > > (sic!). But I know one in person in Sweden, so one can find a=20 few=20 > > others. Please don't take this as a joke, it is the cold fact. > >=20 > > I have visit Pasadena groups/branches in seven countries, and=20 know=20 > > that the biggest problem within the Pasadena TS today, is that=20 the=20 > > average age of its members are around 75, but they are also very=20 > > few. It is often only one or two person within the whole=20 sections=20 > > that carries out more or less all the work. The HQ knows very=20 well=20 > > that this doesn't go any more, and Rand Grubb has said that he=20 plans=20 > > to reorganize the whole Society, but has not said yet what he is=20 > > going to do.=20 > >=20 > > This is really sad! > >=20 > > The Point Loma groups are to be found in Germany and the=20 Netherlands=20 > > (seven groups which I know about). The most of them are very=20 small,=20 > > and some of them have problems with, sorry to call it=20 that, "sect=20 > > tendencies". Their "Leader" is the "one and only true Leader of=20 the=20 > > whole Theosophical Movement", and can therefore have problems=20 with=20 > > their contacts with "outsider". I had contact last year with one=20 of=20 > > this "Leaders", and I noticed this very well. But in Germany the=20 > > T.S. in Germany (HQ in Berlin), which was founded by Dr. Franz=20 > > Hartmann in 1897, is still quit strong and active in many places=20 > > (the so called "H=FCbbe-Schleiden-society" was united whit this in=20 > > 1969), and the strongest TS, more or less the same "size" as=20 Adyar=20 > > TS, in Germany. I have a list of the different theosophical=20 > > societies and groups that are active today in Germany and the=20 > > Netherlands, which I made when I was living in Germany last=20 year. If=20 > > anyone is interested, please tell me and I will post it here.=20 > >=20 > > Carl > >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20 > > wrote: > > > > > >=20 > > > Friends, > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > I hear that only a small number of Pasadena TS groups are=20 still=20 > > really active in the USA.=20 > > >=20 > > > Can anyone confirm that? And what about Pasadena groups=20 outside=20 > > the USA? > > >=20 > > > And Point Loma groups? I thought the diversity in the movement=20 was=20 > > much better and that Pasadena was much stronger. At least, their=20 > > Theosophical University Press is strong -- that IS something.=20 > > >=20 > > > I know Adyar TS is also innerly weak in a number of countries.=20 > > >=20 > > > I believe, nay, I am sure the movement's weakness is seasonal,=20 > > and it in fact prepares a new effort. > > >=20 > > > Regards, Carlos. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi? +_u=3Dcarlosaveline&_l=3D1,1162353819.820558.17267.sotovento.hst.terra.co m.br,7516,Des15,Des15 > >=20 > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 /=20 Vers=E3o: 4.4.00/4885 > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ > >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From carl.ek@mail.com Wed Nov 01 06:33:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carl.ek@mail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14952 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 14:33:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 14:33:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 14:33:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n20.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 14:27:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.68] by t8.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2006 14:27:43 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:27:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.49 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 144.139.87.140 From: "Carl Ek" Subject: Re: To Carl on "Successors" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=280232260; y=HVMP78TsUOcPIg_rEiNDV8fkdcEM8MsIvZh9hMP-ciy57Q X-Yahoo-Profile: ek_carl X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36766 Not successor to HBP, but successor of Judge as head of the "Third=20 Section" (the exoteric society). What or if he was claimed to be an=20 agent of the Masters, I do not know. Same are saying that, as you=20 very well know, and even ULT-associates are doing this (se the=20 introduction of the Yahoo group "Theosophia"). And others are=20 denying this. I think, as other has said here. We will not know the=20 truth before the Theosophy Company in Los Angeles opens its=20 archives. Even leading members of other ULT-lodges (then Los=20 Angeles), has problems with access to this archive. I am not, in any=20 way criticizing Crosbie. His writhing has been in my one study, of=20 in great value, and still very much is. I may be critical to the ULT=20 (as an organisation) on same ways as it is today, but that has not=20 anything to do with Crosbie, or his work.=20 Best regards, Carl --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20 wrote: > > Carl, >=20 > I still don't see any real source as to Robert Crosbie's supposed=20 claims to be a successor of HPB's. On the contrary, he has written=20 against the very idea of successorship. Can you materialialize any=20 real source to that rumour? Or is it something which was said by=20 people who wanted to criticize the ULT or Crosbie?=20=20 >=20 > I tend to be this is fiction. We have to constantly re-examine=20 our sources...=20 >=20 >=20 > Regards, Carlos.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >=20 > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >=20 > C=F3pia: >=20 > Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 01:27:47 -0000 >=20 > Assunto:Theos-World Re: =E2=80=9CSuccessors=E2=80=9D!? >=20 > > Chuck! > >=20 > > I didn't say anything about that "personalities" should matter.=20 For=20 > > me, the question about succeeding is stupid, hence I can't see=20 that=20 > > anyone could succeed nether Blavatsky, nor Judge, in occult=20 matters=20 > > as Teachers (in till the next Messenger from the Lodge, of=20 curse).=20 > > As Leader/President of the T.S. is it something else. My point=20 was=20 > > as I wrote; "which was faithful, to the real and true impulse of=20 the=20 > > Masters after W.Q.J. past away, and followed the True=20 Theosophical=20 > > Path", instead of only discus on what his or hers claims was=20 based=20 > > on (right or wrong). In other words, where do we find or found=20 this=20 > > after W.Q.J. death. Which Theosophical group/succeeder=20 as "leader"=20 > > (I don't mean this in a Pasadena terminological way) was=20 actually=20 > > true to the Holy Cause? Mrs. Tingley, Mr. Crosbie and Mr.=20 Hargrove=20 > > were al, more or less, claiming to succeed Mr. Judge in some=20 way.=20 > > Mrs. Tingley claimed to be it occult (as Teacher), and Mr.=20 Crosbie=20 > > and Mr. Hargrove to be the "visible head" of the true Third=20 Section=20 > > (and Second Section in Crosbie's case also, if Mr. Hargrove hade=20 any=20 > > claims in this matter I do not know for sure) and the/an agent=20 of=20 > > the Master. > >=20 > > We need Theosophical organizations, in some way for many=20 reasons.=20 > > Then, as well as today. And we need Theosophical organizations=20 which=20 > > are faithful to the real and true impulse of the Masters (the=20 Cause,=20 > > the Doctrines and Teachings and so on), and who follows the True=20 > > Theosophical Path. > >=20 > > And Chuck! You are on this "mailing list" also, so that most=20 include=20 > > you to!?=20 > >=20 > > Carl > >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@ wrote: > > > > > >=20 > > > In a message dated 10/31/2006 4:14:59 AM Central Standard=20 Time,=20 > > > carl.ek@ writes: > > >=20 > > > Do any serious Theosophist or Student of Theosophy really=20 thinks=20 > > that=20 > > > anyone could, what so ever, succeed Blavatsky or Judge? Isn't=20 the=20 > > > question, which was faithful, to the real and true impulse of=20 the=20 > > > Masters after W.Q.J. past away, and followed the True=20 > > Theosophical=20 > > > Path? So was it Mrs. Tingley or Mr. Crosbie, or even Mr.=20 > > Hargrove?=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > I don't see why it would even matter. Theosophy is not about=20 the=20 > > > personalities but about the ideas. > > >=20 > > > Other than the folks on these mailing lists, no one cares. > > >=20 > > > Chuck the Heretic > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi? +_u=3Dcarlosaveline&_l=3D1,1162344821.313954.8185.aldavila.hst.terra.com. br,5931,Des15,Des15 > >=20 > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 /=20 Vers=E3o: 4.4.00/4885 > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Wed Nov 01 06:33:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59712 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 14:22:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 14:22:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bungunia.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.196) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 14:22:46 -0000 Received: from ladigue.hst.terra.com.br (ladigue.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.10]) by bungunia.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92A93C74122 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:17:57 +0000 (UTC) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 174246838ad68c7cfce73a1a4fc5541b Received-SPF: pass (ladigue.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.10 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.10; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by ladigue.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFAF015940C0 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:17:57 -0300 (BRT) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:17:57 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.24.59.52 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.196 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: Re: Hargrove's ES X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=vSCszOqb69IkcjpLkcEbrfd0TjljftWGXdP1z5TCL4b7gVYoQe0FMlU X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36767 As to these rumours about Rober Crosbie and the ULT origin, I still see not= hing but second hand, or rather tenth hand hearsay. No real sources. Trees can be evaluated by their fruits.=20 As to Hargrove's ES, I can't have any sure opinion.=20=20=20 It seems this is groundless old stuff and gossips from people critical to = those who do not think like them...=20 The key thing today is all real HPB and Theosophy students have much more i= n common than otherwise. It is the game of 'indoor enemies' to explore differences among Point Loma,= Pasadena, ULT, etc.=20=20 Regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 04:44:57 -0000 Assunto:Theos-World Re: Hargrove's ES > Greg - >=20 > Actually John Cooper told me that Mrs. Griscom was their ES Head. He=20 > also identified her as the writer who used the pseudonym " Cave' "=20 > in the small booklets entitled 'Fragments'. One can see this name=20 > used in 'The Theosophical Quarterly'. I do not have any reference=20 > for this, nor remember if John gave me some idea of reference at the=20 > time but it certainly made sense. I had been interested in finding=20 > out who " Cave' " was and asked him one day during a vist in the=20 > late 1980's I think, while we were searching through Point Loma=20 > archives for various historical documents. With some investigation=20 > it should become more clear. >=20 > Regarding Point Loma esoteric groups. Regarding the Esoteric Section=20 > with its three degrees under dePurucker: >=20 > Though Col. Arthur Conger is alleged to have written the letter=20 > closing it and it is typed by someone and has his signature. It was=20 > written less than a couple of weeks before his death when he could=20 > neither speak nor sign his name from the effects of severe=20 > Parkinson's (so the question is who actually wrote this=20 > letter ?.....)and also did he or others have any authority to do=20 > so ? Certainly from the point of view of the respective secretaries=20 > and officers of the three groups appointed by dePurucker, Boris de=20 > Zirkoff, Henry T. Edge, Emmett Small and Helen Harris, Col. Conger=20 > did not have any such authority nor did James Long, as these=20 > individuals were entrusted with their responsibilities by de=20 > Purucker. So now so many years later it can be said truthfully that=20 > these original Point Loma esoteric groups did not close then, but=20 > paradoxically continued though not explicitly as a formal=20 > organization... >=20 > Regarding other esoteric groups from the lineage that went from=20 > Conger to William Hartley and then in Holland to D.J.P. Kok and now=20 > to Herman Vermeulen or in Germany from Hartley to Herman Knobloch to=20 > Ms. Ackerman I do not know directly if they have any Esoteric=20 > groups, but I would say it is unlikely. They do consider themselves=20 > to be 'esoteric lineages' going back through Point Loma to Blavatsky=20 > but I have not heard that they have any formal esoteric or secret=20 > grops or teachings. >=20 > About Crosbie leaving Point Loma >=20 > I did find last year and passed on to a few 'ULT associates' some=20 > documentation Iverson Harris put together about Crosbie leaving=20 > Point Loma. (now of course it is packed away in my 'attic' and I=20 > cannot immediately access it as like yourself I DO need to have some=20 > space to walk between while working on different studies and=20 > projects....and sorry to say ULT history is hardly my favorite=20 > exciting passtime !) If I remember correctly the results were quite=20 > mundane. Crosbie was having monetary difficulties and was one of the=20 > very few at Point Loma who received a small monetary stipend for the=20 > work he did. This was not sufficient for the needs of he, his wife=20 > and very young child, so he elected to leave. This Crosbie had=20 > already decided and when Tingley found out she wished he would stay,=20 > but did not attempt to change his mind. It is quite probable that=20 > all the stories about a conflict between Tingley and Crosbie evolved=20 > AFTER Crosbie initiated the ULT, though even in this I have never=20 > seen anything written from Tingley or any Point Loma Theosophist at=20 > the time nor even heard anything anecdotal said about Robert=20 > Crosbie ! From the Point Loma side as far as I know, nothing was=20 > even written or said when the ULT published "The Theosophical=20 > Movement: 1875 -1925" which contains much that is factually=20 > incorrect regarding Point Loma and the Judge - Tingely - Crosbie=20 > history. ( Daniel having posted the documents for all to view=20 > certainly helps clarify this historical era )...now with the=20 > history clarified it would really be a step forward if the 'ULT- > Theosophy Company' would really withdraw and re-write their=20 > embarrassing so-called 'history' which only makes them look=20 > backward, cultish and ignorant ! >=20 > more later...... >=20 > Ken Small - Point Loma Publcations >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, gregory@... wrote: > > > > I do not know if Julia Keightley was the OH - as far as I know,=20 > his/her > > identity was not disclosed. But I can provide a little background=20 > on > > Hargrove's ES. > >=20 > > Following the death of W.Q. Judge on March 21, 1896, Ernest temple > > Hargrove appeared to lead the campaign to bring Katherine Tingley=20 > in as > > his successor, but shortly afterwards broke with Tingley, and=20 > resigned as > > President of the Theosophical Society in America in 1898, and led a > > breakaway of some two hundred members from the Society which Mrs=20 > Tingley > > then headed. > >=20 > > The Society which Hargrove established, and then led, had its own=20 > ES, and > > he wrote to Mrs Tingley telling her "by Order of the master you=20 > have > > ceased to be the outer Head of the E.S.T. in the interior and true=20 > sense.=20 > > The Outer Head to follow you has already been appointed by the=20 > Master." > >=20 > > In 1908 this Society became "The Theosophical Society with Its > > Headquarters Based in New York", and published "The Theosophical=20 > Forum" > > and "The Theosophical Quarterly". The Society remained active=20 > until it > > underwent "indrawal" in 1935. > >=20 > > The ES was administered from December, 1898, by a Reference=20 > Committee > > consisting of A.P. Buchman, J.D. Buck, George Coffin, C.A. Griscom, > > Charles Johnston, Archibald Keightley and William Ludlow. The=20 > identity of > > the OH was never made known to the members, although ES documents=20 > prepared > > by him or her were distributed to them. These included Aids and > > Suggestions (following the 7 papers previously issued by Judge) and > > Subsidiary Paper D (follow Judge's Subsidiary Papers A, B and C). > >=20 > > In September, 1900, the Reference Committee proposed four courses=20 > of study > > for members: "The First Course provided a comprehensive knowledge=20 > of > > Theosophical philosophy by means of studying the exoteric=20 > Theosophic works > > in the light of E.S.T. Instructions 1, 2 and 3. The Second Course=20 > taught a > > more advanced philosophy based upon "The Secret Doctrine" and other > > metaphysical work with the study being based upon the E.S.T.=20 > Aids and > > Suggestions. The Third Course will use Instructions 4, 5 and 6 of=20 > the > > E.T.S. plus other papers to be issued to the School plus some=20 > unpublished > > letters of the Master K.H. The emphasis in this course was=20 > to the above > > with the Upanishads, Veda, Puranas, Bible and other sacred texts.=20 > The > > fourth Course was to be based upon the devotional side of=20 > Theosophy and > > was to study "Light on the Path", "The Voice of the=20 > Silence", "Letters > > That Have Helped Me", "Through the Gates of Gold" and other=20 > devotional > > texts. This course was intended to lead to the development of the=20 > Inner > > Man." > >=20 > > An examining Board sent examination papers to members, and=20 > assessed the > > results. > >=20 > > At the Theosophical Society Convention held on April 30, 1905, it=20 > was > > reported that the School had moved from the phase of Instruction=20 > under > > HPB and WQJ to that of Discipline under the present OH. The School=20 > appears > > to have followed the Society into its period of "indrawal" in 1935. > >=20 > >=20 > > Dr Gregory Tillett > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1162356742.471274.32533.vacoas.hst.terra.com.br,10748,Des15,Des1= 5 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.4.= 00/4885 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Wed Nov 01 07:03:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63128 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 15:01:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 15:01:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO buraja.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.198) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 15:01:19 -0000 Received: from calabona.hst.terra.com.br (calabona.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.5]) by buraja.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB63E22A4076 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:59:04 +0000 (UTC) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 9d92b8d9c2102ace13930eabc5ed2d7e Received-SPF: pass (calabona.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.5 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.5; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by calabona.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id A80D21BD405E for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:59:04 -0300 (BRT) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:59:04 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.24.59.52 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.198 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: Re: Yahoo group in Swedish! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=bmcu1SbMnJSHmO6TZQfmghUSWgIFaNKjW8t9lMxwTgWrKThmsRk1URo X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36768 Good luck to you people! By the way, nothing in Norway?=20 Anything theosophical in Norway?=20 Regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:09:36 -0000 Assunto:Theos-World =93New=94 Yahoo group in Swedish! > I would like to inform those (everybody else to, of course) how speaks=20 > a Scandinavian language, that there is a pretty new Theosophical group=20 > here on Yahoo in Swedish, and that you are welcome to become a member=20 > there. We are only a few members today, so the activity is still quit=20 > low. But that we hope it soon will be better. More members, that's the=20 > key! The name of the group is "Teosofi i Sverige". >=20 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teosofi_i_sverige/ >=20 > Carl >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1162390414.959451.25980.mangoro.hst.terra.com.br,3901,Des15,Des1= 5 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/10/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.4.= 00/4885 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Wed Nov 01 07:04:40 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54116 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2006 14:59:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2006 14:59:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bungunia.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.196) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2006 14:59:37 -0000 Received: from calivil.hst.terra.com.br (calivil.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.9]) by bungunia.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E593C7429A for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:56:32 +0000 (UTC) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 184aabf525320d0009c894b345ea3905 Received-SPF: pass (calivil.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.9 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.9; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by calivil.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DD7124811E for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:56:32 -0300 (BRT) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 11:56:31 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.24.59.52 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.196 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: NO ULT "CLAIMS" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=dAMrsH-Y37hsxYD7ahTSu61MYPp15jspECuonID5yyUxWtRBH7mzet8 X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 36769 Carl, I think you did not carefully consider the "ULT Declaration", where the ULT= expressly gives up any claims as to the "Third Section" -- or any "Theosop= hical Societies". The ULT Declaration is the main ULT document and statem= ent of purposes.=20=20 You can be an associate of the ULT and belong to any Theosophical Society.= =20 So, no claims in that area either.=20 Regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:27:42 -0000 Assunto:Theos-World Re: To Carl on "Successors" > Not successor to HBP, but successor of Judge as head of the "Third=20 > Section" (the exoteric society). What or if he was claimed to be an=20 > agent of the Masters, I do not know. Same are saying that, as you=20 > very well know, and even ULT-associates are doing this (se the=20 > introduction of the Yahoo group "Theosophia"). And others are=20 > denying this. I think, as other has said here. We will not know the=20 > truth before the Theosophy Company in Los Angeles opens its=20 > archives. Even leading members of other ULT-lodges (then Los=20 > Angeles), has problems with access to this archive. I am not, in any=20 > way criticizing Crosbie. His writhing has been in my one study, of=20 > in great value, and still very much is. I may be critical to the ULT=20 > (as an organisation) on same ways as it is today, but that has not=20 > anything to do with Crosbie, or his work.=20 >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Carl >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"=20 > wrote: > > > > Carl, > >=20 > > I still don't see any real source as to Robert Crosbie's supposed=20 > claims to be a successor of HPB's. On the contrary, he has written=20 > against the very idea of successorship. Can you materialialize any=20 > real source to that rumour? Or is it something which was said by=20 > people who wanted to criticize the ULT or Crosbie?=20 > >=20 > > I tend to be this is fiction. We have to constantly re-examine=20 > our sources...=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Regards, Carlos.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > >=20 > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > >=20 > > C=F3pia: > >=20 > > Data:Wed, 01 Nov 2006 01:27:47 -0000 > >=20 > > Assunto:Theos-World Re: =E2=80=9CSuccessors=E2=80=9D!? > >=20 > > > Chuck! > > >=20 > > > I didn't say anything about that "personalities" should matter.=20 > For=20 > > > me, the question about succeeding is stupid, hence I can't see=20 > that=20 > > > anyone could succeed nether Blavatsky, nor Judge, in occult=20 > matters=20 > > > as Teachers (in till the next Messenger from the Lodge, of=20 > curse).=20 > > > As Leader/President of the T.S. is it something else. My point=20 > was=20 > > > as I wrote; "which was faithful, to the real and true impulse of=20 > the=20 > > > Masters after W.Q.J. past away, and followed the True=20 > Theosophical=20 > > > Path", instead of only discus on what his or hers claims was=20 > based=20 > > > on (right or wrong). In other words, where do we find or found=20 > this=20 > > > after W.Q.J. death. Which Theosophical group/succeeder=20 > as "leader"=20 > > > (I don't mean this in a Pasadena terminological way) was=20 > actually=20 > > > true to the Holy Cause? Mrs. Tingley, Mr. Crosbie and Mr.=20 > Hargrove=20 > > > were al, more or less, claiming to succeed Mr. Judge in some=20 > way.=20 > > > Mrs. Tingley claimed to be it occult (as Teacher), and Mr.=20 > Crosbie=20 > > > and Mr. Hargrove to be the "visible head" of the true Third=20 > Section=20 > > > (and Second Section in Crosbie's case also, if Mr. Hargrove hade=20 > any=20 > > > claims in this matter I do not know for sure) and the/an agent=20 > of=20 > > > the Master. > > >=20 > > > We need Theosophical organizations, in some way for many=20 > reasons.=20 > > > Then, as well as today. And we need Theosophical organizations=20 > which=20 > > > are faithful to the real and true impulse of the Masters (the=20 > Cause,=20 > > > the Doctrines and Teachings and so on), and who follows the True=20 > > > Theosophical Path. > > >=20 > > > And Chuck! You are on this "mailing list" also, so that most=20 > include=20 > > > you to!?=20 > > >=20 > > > Carl > > >=20 > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@ wrote: > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > In a message dated 10/31/2006 4:14:59 AM Central Standard=20 > Time,=20 > > > > carl.ek@ writes: > > > >=20 > > > > Do any serious Theosophist or Student of Theosophy really=20 > thinks=20 > > > that=20 > > > > anyone could, what so ever, succeed Blavatsky or Judg