From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 01 04:28:21 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71319 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 11:26:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 11:26:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 11:26:21 -0000 Received: from [216.175.106.19] (helo=DALLAS) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1G7sNo-0003kh-Dw; Tue, 01 Aug 2006 07:25:56 -0400 To: "Mangala RAMPRAKASH" Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 04:23:35 -0700 Message-ID: <006801c6b55c$f26a4fb0$0a0110ac@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79e0a3c53e6fe4957d5b4c0c1550b13b77350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.63 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: FW: Pam Reynolds' NDE - Monday class video subject X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=PhlkJ4g7dfbjiLEIWHfiWxBKb8dFPwJVosenAJzFNbmZoQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34957 INTERESTING NDE Experience Thanks Odin. Dallas ===================== -----Original Message----- From: Odin [mailto:otownley@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 10:22 PM To: Subject: Pam Reynolds' NDE - Monday class video subject Pam Reynolds' NDE The next thing I recall was the sound: It was a Natural "D." As I listened to the sound, I felt it was pulling me out of the top of my head. The further out of my body I got, the more clear the tone became. I had the impression it was like a road, a frequency that you go on ... I remember seeing several things in the operating room when I was looking down. It was the most aware that I think that I have ever been in my entire life ...I was metaphorically sitting on [the doctor's] shoulder. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html ---------------------------------------- ABSOLUTE LIGHT AND DARKNESS "Darkness, then, is the eternal matrix in which the sources of light appear and disappear. Nothing is added to darkness to make of it light, or to light to make it darkness, on this our plane. They are interchangeable, and scientifically light is but a mode of darkness and vice versa. Yet both are phenomena of the same noumenon -- which is absolute darkness to the scientific mind, and but a gray twilight to the perception of the average mystic, though to that of the spiritual eye of the Initiate it is absolute light. How far we discern the light that shines in darkness depends upon our powers of vision.. . . the eye of the clairvoyant sees illumination where the normal eye perceives only blackness." [SD I:40] "The ever-unknowable and incognizable Karana alone, the Causeless Cause of all causes, should have its shrine and altar on the holy and ever untrodden ground of our heart - invisible, intangible, unmentioned, save through 'the still small voice' of our spiritual consciousness. Those who worship before it, ought to do so in the silence and the sanctified solitude of their souls; making their spirit the sole mediator between them and the Universal Spirit, their good actions the only priests, and their sinful intentions the only visible objective sacrificial victims to the Presence." [SD 1:280] -- Odin Townley, Science Editor http://www.blavatsky.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 05:59:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 772 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 12:59:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 12:59:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO buniche.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.197) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 12:59:11 -0000 Received: from calana.hst.terra.com.br (calana.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.6]) by buniche.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05E13DD8077 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:59:09 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: cba40914b3e6314767c3b3ab73ce17e5 Received-SPF: pass (calana.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.6 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.6; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by calana.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61A24500E0 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:59:07 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:59:07 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.197 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: PEACE AND ETHICS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=sYw0UALVLrwCrOWdcq0oGn6BX3Lm6dpgvqa1I5mpFe7061xMnInFpqE X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34958 Bruce, Dallas,=20 Excellent, insightful text by Bruce below.=20 Also, Peace cannot be separated from Ethics and Justice. Different names fo= r the same essential thing. Best regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:"AAA-Dal" dalval14@earthlink.net C=F3pia: Data:Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:17:42 -0700 Assunto:Theos-World RE: History vs. Moral Injustice > Excellent thoughts and a very good list. Thanks. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Dallas >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----------------------------- >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert_B_Macdonald > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006=20 >=20 > To:=20 > Subject: HISTORY VS. MORAL INJUSTICE >=20 >=20 >=20 > Dear Friends, >=20 > War seems to be the passtime of our Age. Battles are being fought on > every front. The battles on the pages of Theos-Talk are a microcosm to > the battles being fought with bullets and bombs elsewhere in the world > today. Perhaps if we could find a way of establishing a Peace within > our own Society, we might see how such a methodology might be esablished > elsewhere. >=20 > It is always good to begin with what you can agree on. The following > are a set of axioms that I hope that all members of the Theosophical > Movement might agree on: >=20 >=20 > 1. The truth that the Theosophical Movement (tTM) has no dogmas. >=20 >=20 > 2. The truth that the TM puts truth above all. >=20 >=20 > 3. The truth that the TM encourages Universal Brotherhood as a means to s= elf > growth. >=20 >=20 > 4. The truth that the TM encourages the study of Comparative Religion, > Science, and Philosophy as well as the study of the Laws of Nature and > Powers latent in Man as a means to self growth. >=20 >=20 > 5. The truth that HPB, WQJ, and the Masters produced a body of work that > provides a particular vocabulary for use in the Movement. >=20 >=20 > 6. The truth that the Movement's only reason for being is for its own > propogation with the understanding that a search for truth and a > practice of Universal Brotherhood as advanced by the Movement will make > Humanity nobler. >=20 >=20 > 7. The truth that all members of the Movement are beholden to protect > the Movement and further its interests to the best of their abilities. >=20 >=20 > The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT must be distinquished from theosophy in general= . > There can be theosophists who practice theosophy in its general sense who > have never heard of the Movement or its founders. >=20 > Just because the writings of HPB, WQJ and the Masters provide the > foundation for discussion within the Movement does not mean there are > not other or even theosophically nobler writers.=20 >=20 > All that is meant here is that we have to have a common foundation for=20 >=20 > discussion and because of the axioms of the Society that foundation=20 >=20 > must be the founders for nobody has the authority to provide any better.= =20 >=20 > This is due to axiom 1. >=20 > Here then is the argument that flows from the above axioms. When Olcott > accused HPB of using the authority of the Masters to lend credence to > her opinions as found in the "Prayag Letter", Olcott should have been > ruled out of order according to Axiom 1. His allegation was not > provable so the only reason the members had for agreeing with him at > that time is because they viewed him as an authority on HPB and her > writings. This was in direct oposition to Axiom 1 and consequently > Axiom 7 (through their ignorance).=20 >=20 > Besant committed the same error when she accused Judge.=20 >=20 > Even, if as she says, the Masters put her up to > it, this would be a case of making the Masters the Authority, and > thereby introducing dogma into the Movement. True Masters would have > realised this and not have done it, and if they did it was Besant's duty > to argue against such a course as she had no way of independantly > proving it. What if in either case the Masters had provided testimony > by letter. Such testimony would be believed by some, regarded as fraud > by others. In other words it would have been evidence but not proof as > there would be no way to ultimately verify the letters. The only > verification for each theosophist is his own conscience. >=20 > If you believed Besant and or Olcott, you could be accused of creating > authorities and destroying the Movement as founded by HPB and the > Masters. If you tried to argue that HPB and Judge must be put above all > else, again you are creating authorites. Members of the Theosophical > Society should have ruled Besant and Olcott out of order not because > they were right or wrong, that is irrelevant.=20 >=20 > They should have been > ruled out of order because they undermined the Axioms of the Society > that they were supposed to uphold, thereby paving the way for dogmas to > be introduced into the Movement. The members who did not understand > this are the ones who destroyed the Society by splitting one way or the > other.=20 >=20 > The battles being fought on the pages of Theos-Talk are not > historical battles, they are moral battles. THERE ARE NO GOOD REASONS > TO LEVEL UNPROVABLE PERSONAL ALLEGATIONS AGAINST ANOTHER THEOSOPHIST.=20 >=20 >=20 > There is nothing to be won as there are no dogmas at stake, only the > axioms that the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT was founded upon. >=20 > This is a logical analysis of the splitting of the Movement. Most of > the axioms did not have to be used in this analysis althought they might > be valuable in determining where to go from here. Any comments on the > analysis itself or on the axioms are welcome. Any personal attacks will > be viewed as coming from the typical type of agitators that infiltrate > all groups for the purpose of destruction. When you can't argue > logically, smear your opponents (something the Movement was created to > prevent). >=20 > Bruce >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1154389112.893012.32500.morondava.hst.terra.com.br,8425,Des15,De= s15 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/07/2006 / Vers?o: 4.4.00= /4818 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 06:07:52 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55201 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 13:06:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 13:06:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bulimba.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.194) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 13:06:26 -0000 Received: from domoni.hst.terra.com.br (domoni.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.16]) by bulimba.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BD11130C09A for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:05:45 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: d4ff65a8cadfd0d3f98ef45e9444949c Received-SPF: pass (domoni.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.16 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.16; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by domoni.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id C134E15880AC for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:05:44 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:05:44 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.194 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: Sowing Gossips? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=AYDTlScThoELdVeaycpYKf-V0B607C6UYS4c-ifQQ5A-7usrtzbU5ik X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34959 Daniel, I wish you start studying Theosophy instead of swimming in a sea of gossips= .=20 You might want to study Dallas' postings here, which are excellent, or to g= et "The Key to Theosophy" and read it in a meditative way. Regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Mon, 31 Jul 2006 23:29:17 -0000 Assunto:Theos-World Sowing Gossips....Sowing Dissent & a Double Standard??? > Carlos writes: >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > To Daniel, every section of the theosophical movement is=20 > to be taken with skepticism, if it should not be laughed at.=20 > See below. >=20 > Daniel takes the Coulombs, or Solovyof, more seriously than he takes > theosophists. >=20 > And, of course, he aims at sowing dissent, systematically using=20 > differences of opinions to discredit the movement as a whole. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > I will now make some comments on what Carlos has written above. >=20 > I like the way Carlos seems to know what I really believe or think. >=20 > Take his first statement: >=20 > "To Daniel, every section of the theosophical movement is=20 > to be taken with skepticism, if it should not be laughed at." >=20 > Yes I do believe that any student of Theosophy who knows about the=20 > many conflicting and contradictory claims and counterclaims in the=20 > broader Theosophical movement should have a good dose of HEALTHY=20 > skepticism. In other words, one should ask relevant questions and=20 > not naively accept or reject any claim or contention made before one=20 > makes a thorough inquiry and study. I also believe in zetetic=20 > skepticism=20 >=20 > See the following two webpages for brief definitions of > zetetic: >=20 > http://www.answers.com/topic/zetetic >=20 > http://www.answers.com/topic/marcello-truzzi >=20 > See also what I wrote 10 years ago on Theos-Talk: >=20 > http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199612/tt00062.html >=20 > But I certainly don't believe (as Carlos apparently wants readers to=20 > believe) anything like he apparently simply makes up when he writes: >=20 > "....if it should not be laughed at...." >=20 > Carlos goes on commenting: >=20 > "Daniel takes the Coulombs, or Solovyof, more seriously than he takes > theosophists." >=20 > This apparently is one more of Carlos' own "misleading mayavic=20 > ideations." >=20 > Certainly not MY opinion. >=20 > As I have stated more than once on this forum, I believe that both=20 > the Coulombs and Solovyof turned against Madame Blavatsky and lied=20 > about her. >=20 > Let me put it another way: I believe the vast majority of=20 > Theosophists whose testimonies were given in my ESOTERIC WORLD OF=20 > MADAME BLAVATSKY as opposed to the testimony of the Coulombs and=20 > Hodgson as also given in that same volume. And this opinion of mine=20 > was stated at several places in that volume. >=20 > And finally Carlos writes: >=20 > "And, of course, he [Daniel] aims at sowing dissent, systematically=20 > using differences of opinions to discredit the movement as a whole." >=20 > Although I have serious reservations and doubts about many of the=20 > claims put forward after Madame Blavatsky's death, I certainly have=20 > never tried to "discredit the movement as a whole." >=20 > I certainly am glad that the Theosophical Movement has survived=20 > (more or less) over the last 100 years and has been available as an=20 > alternative to, for example, scientific materialism, orthodox forms=20 > of Christianity, etc., etc. >=20 > But as concerns Carlos' own claim that I am "sowing gossip"=20 > and/or "sowing dissent", what pray tell is Carlos doing, for example, > when he writes in strongly negative terms about Mr. Leadbeater on=20 > this forum. Could it not be said that he ALSO is "sowing gossip"=20 > and "sowing dissent"? A number of Leadbeater students certainly=20 > have expressed that opinion concerning what he has written. >=20 > Or in material issued by the editors of Theosophy Magazine, one=20 > might ask: >=20 > Have they ALSO sowed gossip and sowed dissent? >=20 > For example, look at the material recommended just today=20 > by "Compiler". >=20 > Take the following articles about G. de Purucker found in the pages=20 > of THEOSOPHY magazine: >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/buj4e >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/9vk7b >=20 > Or look at the material written by these same editors of Theosophy=20 > Magazine on Mrs. Tingley: >=20 > http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokes/stokestm7525.htm >=20 > http://tinyurl.com/gkl9b >=20 > http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokes/stokestm1951.htm >=20 > Is it so unreasonable to conclude that these article might also be=20 > included under what Carlos chooses to call: >=20 > Sowing Gossips....Sowing Dissent?????????????? >=20 > Does Carlos in effect have a DOUBLE STANDARD? >=20 > Is he saying it is ok for him as well as the editors of Theosophy=20 > magazine to make highly critical statements about various=20 > Theosophical leaders but no one else (including me) can do so??? >=20 > Is it unreasonable to conclude that the 1951 edition of THE=20 > THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT still sold by the Theosophy Company, is but an=20 > ongoing attempt to "sow" gossips...to "sow" dissent? >=20 > Some food for thought.... >=20 > I am under no delusion or illusion that Carlos might have a change=20 > of heart and actually try to engage in a cool, calm and thoughtful=20 > discussion of these issues. >=20 > But I write for other interested readers. >=20 > Daniel > http://hpb.cc >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1154388625.592288.8629.caneria.hst.terra.com.br,7928,Des15,Des15 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/07/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.4.= 00/4818 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From proto37@yahoo.com Tue Aug 01 06:09:24 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: proto37@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50006 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 13:09:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 13:09:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web32512.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.207.222) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 13:09:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 79202 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Aug 2006 13:07:36 -0000 Message-ID: <20060801130736.79200.qmail@web32512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.224.180.218] by web32512.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 01 Aug 2006 06:07:36 PDT Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 06:07:36 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.207.222 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Mark Jaqua Subject: Kyrie elision X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=130276474; y=wGgJ1KoDBvovxBMC1IJJJjuyjKHYImPuemlWMsUInZzbbw X-Yahoo-Profile: proto37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34960 Re: Silent Editing =20=20=20 DC: As in almost EVERY instance,=20 you completely avoid the issue involved,=20 and DIVERT your answer away from it.=20 (Of course! Primary Sources should be=20 used if possible - you think I'm some=20 kind of numchuck - I edited a newsletter=20 for 42 issues on was staff-writer for one=20 previous to that - but for common popular=20 papers, it's Ok, or if the sources aren't=20 available, like in your book. Its=20 disgusting and not worth responding to.=20=20 One of the traditional Buddhist debate=20 tournaments would make mincemeat of you,=20 while the average reader is just - CONFUSED.=20=20 Of course this isn't a right-hand method -=20 but a left-hand method. (You defend=20 yourself of not just being a=20 "scholar" of HPB but a "student" - as=20 you believe she was genuine. What=20 difference does this make? In analogy -=20 "Does Darth Vadar Believe in Yota? -=20 of course he does. In actuality with=20 your methods, you are developing into=20 a fine Dugpa. In a few more years or=20 incarnations - who knows? =20=20 Relatively and Luckily, Occult World of=20 Madame Blavatsky and its treatment is not an=20 important book in the big scheme. Light and=20 interesting secondary biographical information=20 is good reading, but not too important, and=20 has little to do with the purpose of the=20 Theosophical Effort. (Some History IS important=20 tho - like Tillet's Elder Brother.) This arguing is a genuine waste of time,=20 like trying to swat an errant fly which never=20 stays in one place long. I have to go get my=20 first and primary source edition of=20 Aeschylus now..... - jake j. =20=20 -------------------- DC writes: =20=20 <....THE OCCULT WORLD X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25492 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 13:26:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 13:26:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bulimba.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.194) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 13:26:04 -0000 Received: from buruma.hst.terra.com.br (buruma.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.2]) by bulimba.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B57130C110 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:25:11 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 5a1fb27035e63af9e8bc275c7ce5df28 Received-SPF: pass (buruma.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.2 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.2; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by buruma.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3D2DC14073 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:25:10 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:25:10 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.194 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: To Daniel X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=Uza2qNkVz-jqxi8CkGZRBclYxH9ZVGeBRi7l5QAG5Lu1_hGPvxDLTPE X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34961 Dear Daniel, I hope you will honestly consider the text below.=20 Regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Tue, 1 Aug 2006 06:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Assunto:Theos-World Kyrie elision > Re: Silent Editing >=20 > DC: > As in almost EVERY instance,=20 > you completely avoid the issue involved,=20 > and DIVERT your answer away from it.=20 > (Of course! Primary Sources should be=20 > used if possible - you think I'm some=20 > kind of numchuck - I edited a newsletter=20 > for 42 issues on was staff-writer for one=20 > previous to that - but for common popular=20 > papers, it's Ok, or if the sources aren't=20 > available, like in your book. Its=20 > disgusting and not worth responding to.=20 > One of the traditional Buddhist debate=20 > tournaments would make mincemeat of you,=20 > while the average reader is just - CONFUSED.=20 > Of course this isn't a right-hand method -=20 > but a left-hand method. (You defend=20 > yourself of not just being a=20 > "scholar" of HPB but a "student" - as=20 > you believe she was genuine. What=20 > difference does this make? In analogy -=20 > "Does Darth Vadar Believe in Yota? -=20 > of course he does. In actuality with=20 > your methods, you are developing into=20 > a fine Dugpa. In a few more years or=20 > incarnations - who knows? >=20 > Relatively and Luckily, Occult World of=20 > Madame Blavatsky and its treatment is not an=20 > important book in the big scheme. Light and=20 > interesting secondary biographical information=20 > is good reading, but not too important, and=20 > has little to do with the purpose of the=20 > Theosophical Effort. (Some History IS important=20 > tho - like Tillet's Elder Brother.) > This arguing is a genuine waste of time,=20 > like trying to swat an errant fly which never=20 > stays in one place long. I have to go get my=20 > first and primary source edition of=20 > Aeschylus now..... > - jake j. >=20 > -------------------- > DC writes: >=20 > <....THE OCCULT WORLD >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 >=20 > "silently edited?" At least the dots (....)=20 >=20 > something is missing. With the dots in,=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 >=20 >=20 > to study but also especially to quote. >=20 > several paragraphs from one of Einstein's book AS FOUND in some > secondary source. I was taught instead you need to go to Einstein's=20 > actual book. >=20 > SECONDARY source. Not a primary source. >=20 >=20 > it would be good practice for some author to quote some of the=20 > extracts from that work. >=20 > meeting the Master Morya (I posted that excerpt recently on Theos- > Talk) as they are transcribed in my first edition but you would need=20 > to add something like.=20 > <"Olcott, Henry S. Old Diary Leaves, Vol. I, etc. AS QUOTED in THE=20 > OCCULT WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY, etc." >=20 > from Old Diary Leaves, Volume I.=20 >=20 > own books should not take the easy way out [one of my professors=20 > called that the lazy man's approach!!] and just quote from secondary=20 > sources.=20 >=20 > something from HPB's SECRET DOCTRINE I would not use Boris de=20 > Zirkoff's edition of the SD to quote from. Why? >=20 > text. I'm not saying that Boris' edition doesn't have many good=20 > features. I could list many good points of Boris' edition but since=20 > some of his "changes" in certain instances may "distort" HPB's=20 > original meaning I would instead prefer HPB's original or at least a=20 > photographic facsimile of the original as produced by TUP and TC. >=20 > ------------------------- >=20 >=20 > --------------------------------- > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rate= s starting at 1=A2/min. >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1154438551.314082.16658.curepipe.hst.terra.com.br,7925,Des15,Des= 15 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/07/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.4.= 00/4818 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 06:29:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69621 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 13:29:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 13:28:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO paiol.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.210) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 13:28:44 -0000 Received: from bulimba.hst.terra.com.br (bulimba.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.194]) by paiol.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1314EE08F8 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:28:39 -0300 (BRT) Received: from buruma.hst.terra.com.br (buruma.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.2]) by bulimba.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FE2130C0ED for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:22:15 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 149b83651f84ab3cf1559cd3a79c5069 Received-SPF: pass (buruma.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.2 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.2; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by buruma.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55262C14119 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:22:15 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:22:15 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.210 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: MOTIVATION MATTERS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=q9T74mUbwFCAx3MjBeCRJSNiS9z6X37vAIPWqxSMpiqzDWfez3yJChY X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34962 Friends, May I offer a few ideas?=20 I guess this investigation and dialogue (BELOW) is interesting, if all of t= he parties involved are sincerely committed to the good of mankind and cons= ider Theosophy (as it is in the world) as an instrument to do good. If not, such a subject might be used by elementals and other "subtle" force= s to sow further dissent in minds and hearts.=20 A correct viewpoint and method to understand Theosohical History cannot be = purely logical. Only the heart gives the true light. That is, perhaps, = one of the main limitations in Daniel's attempts to discuss the lives of gr= eat Theosophists. K. Paul Johnson and John Algeo have the same problem.=20 Best regards, Carlos.=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Fri, 28 Jul 2006 00:23:58 -0000 Assunto:Theos-World To Bruce & an example from what Dallas wrote > Bruce, >=20 > Thanks for all of your comments. >=20 > I will comment on just one of yours and add > an example. >=20 > You write: >=20 > "Perhaps you are deluded in your supposition." >=20 > Certainly I try to keep in mind that I MAY be > deluded or mistaken in MY supposition. >=20 > But I would think that any of us may find ourselves > in that condition at least some of the time. Maybe even > you! >=20 > But if you believe that I am deluded in my supposition > and you feel that it is important enough to try to > clarify, then you should try to throw light on the > SPECIFIC matter under consideration. Maybe I might > learn something, you might also learn something, others > too!! >=20 > Take a concrete example: >=20 > Dallas wrote: >=20 > "Mr. Neresheimer had introduced Mrs. Tingley to=20 > W. Q. J. about a year before his death." >=20 > Now I suppose Dallas was trying to be helpful and > was trying to convey some needed information. >=20 > But as far as I can tell, what he writes is NOT > historically accurate. >=20 > Now I really don't care who wrote the quoted material. > Take Dallas' name off. Is the statement accurate whether > Paul Johnson wrote it or the Mahachohan or Leadbeater or Dallas > or you or me? >=20 > Now maybe I am the one muddled on the point or I am deluded in my=20 > supposition. But I don't think so and I have the documentation that=20 > I think shows that what Dallas writes is in error. >=20 > Neresheimer himself writes that it was actually > Mr. Judge who was instrumental in introducing > (Neresheimer) to Mr. and Mrs. Tingley. > From Neresheimer's account, Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley > had known each other for some time BEFORE Mr. Neresheimer > even knew of Mrs. Tingley's existence! >=20 > Again in the above statement Dallas [or whoever!!!] makes the=20 > statement that Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley only knew each other for > about a year before Judge died. >=20 > Again NOT accurate according to Neresheimer's account. > They had known each other for more than 2 years. Probably > at least for 2 years and 4 or 5 months ... IF NOT LONGER.... >=20 > My source is at: >=20 > http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokesneres.htm >=20 > Now maybe you think this is all trivial. Could be.... > But shouldn't we get our basic historical facts correct if at all > possible? Maybe you don't care... I don't know. >=20 > Now maybe Dallas has some other source for what he stated. Maybe=20 > another statement by Neresheimer. I don't know. If he does, I hope=20 > he brings it forward. >=20 > Maybe this is an example for you of my "criticizing." That I never=20 > state my opinion. Well I think I did state my opinion and I=20 > presented my evidence. >=20 > This is how I try to proceed in most of the discussions I have in=20 > this forum. One point at a time on specific topics. At least=20 > that's how I perceive it! I could be wrong tho.... :) >=20 > Daniel > http://hpb.cc >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "robert_b_macd"=20 > wrote: > > > > Daniel, > >=20 > > A few comments: > >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell" > > wrote: > > > > > > Bruce, > > >=20 > > > I guess you are writing to me! :) > > >=20 > > > You say: > > >=20 > > > "I love the way you 'claim' never to know what any historical=20 > > > personage is thinking or doing!!" > > >=20 > > > Did I claim this? Maybe your are joking or making an=20 > overstatement > > > on purpose. :) > > > > > You can check out the context, perhaps it might become clear. > >=20 > > > I would prefer that they actually TELL me...what they are=20 > thinking... > >=20 > > Wouldn't that be nice. Regrettably when you ask some people to > > clarify themselves they go off comparing apples with oranges and > > thereaby signal an unwillingness to communicate and a willingness=20 > to > > hinder clarification and waste time, or so it would seem. > >=20 > > > if they are dead...I will read what they wrote and try to=20 > ascertain=20 > > > what they were thinking.... > > >=20 > > Have you ever tried reading their words divorced from context so=20 > that > > you need only focus on the dead letter? This is a marvelous way of > > tying others up in fruitless debate. > >=20 > > > But if they don't tell me or if I can't read something they=20 > > > wrote...I guess I can try to....speculate...or whatever about=20 > what=20 > > > they are thinking but that doesn't mean that I really KNOW. > > >=20 > > You may not KNOW but if you are distracted with apples posing for > > oranges you can guess that communication for the purpose of > > clarification is not the goal. > >=20 > > > Well I think sometimes I explain my points. Yes sometimes I=20 > don't=20 > > > or I don't do it fully.=20 > >=20 > > Can you present us with examples where clarification actually=20 > resulted > > from something you wrote or said? > >=20 > > > You also write: > > >=20 > > > "In your code of ethics it seems to be a moral imperative to=20 > stand=20 > > > nowhere and criticize all." > > >=20 > > > Well at least you wrote "it seems...." :) > > >=20 > > > I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "to stand nowhere". > > >=20 > > Maybe the man sitting on the fence is standing nowhere and the=20 > bonus > > is that he can criticize those standing on either side of the=20 > fence. > >=20 > > > An example or two might help me to know what you are trying to=20 > > > communicate. > > >=20 > > Apples and Oranges are examples that work for some people. > >=20 > > > Yes I do try to point out from time to time historical=20 > > > inaccuracies. And I try to usually document them so you can=20 > decide=20 > > > for yourself whether my point is well taken or not. > > >=20 > > Perhaps you are deluded in your supposition.=20 > > > Daniel > > >=20 > > Daniel, if you really wanted to communicate, it shouldn't be that=20 > hard. > >=20 > > Bruce=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "robert_b_macd"=20 > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dallas, > > > >=20 > > > > I love the way you "claim" never to know what any historical=20 > > > personage > > > > is thinking or doing!! Yet you certainly construct your=20 > quotes=20 > > > like > > > > you are trying to make a point! Perhaps if you explained your=20 > > > points > > > > people would not be left having to guess what you are thinking=20 > or > > > > doing!!! Your only explanations seem to be in the criticism=20 > of=20 > > > other > > > > people's opinions. In your code of ethics it seems to be a=20 > moral > > > > imperative to stand nowhere and criticize all. > > > >=20 > > > > Jesus X 2! > > > >=20 > > > > Bruce > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bruce, > > > > >=20 > > > > > I love the way you know exactly what I was or wasn't=20 > thinking or=20 > > > > > doing!! > > > > >=20 > > > > > Take this gem of yours: > > > > >=20 > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > Daniel has baited Dallas into commenting on an historical=20 > matter=20 > > > by > > > > > again first trying to deceive readers through lack of=20 > context.=20 > > > Rather > > > > > than demonstrate to readers why Dallas is wrong in his=20 > analysis,=20 > > > > > Daniel might demonstrate some courage and present his own=20 > > > > > convictions to the readers. It is rather cowardly sitting in=20 > the=20 > > > > > weeds constantly floating decoys and then blasting anyone=20 > who=20 > > > cares=20 > > > > > to investigate. Clever but > > > > > cowardly. > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > >=20 > > > > > When I wrote my posting titled "Robert Crosbie Claimed" I=20 > wasn't > > > > > even thinking about Dallas!! I had been discussing the use=20 > of=20 > > > > > the word "claim" with Carlos. So I simply decided to present > > > > > to Carlos a series of statements showing what Crosby claimed. > > > > >=20 > > > > > So now you say I was baiting Dallas? > > > > >=20 > > > > > But of course you know better than myself what I was or=20 > wasn't=20 > > > > > thinking or doing. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Bruce, is this in your code of Theosophical ethics to accuse=20 > > > people=20 > > > > > of what you don't have the foggiest idea about? > > > > >=20 > > > > > Jesus!=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 06:56:46 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22842 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 13:56:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 13:56:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO buniche.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.197) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 13:56:38 -0000 Received: from calana.hst.terra.com.br (calana.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.6]) by buniche.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3EE83DD8165 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:56:33 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: d8fa14410c412b1823e6d8a6d8cebe87 Received-SPF: pass (calana.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.6 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.6; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (alambi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.180]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by calana.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89D454500C4 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:56:33 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:56:33 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.197 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: TO MARIE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=P2XshLGHb5rpeZbJt-Cuyamtwt1QQoKdmP5Cja9evr7DCL2pa4ptd7c X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34963 Marie, Why do not you suggest to Daniel Cadlwell, or to John Algeo,=20 that they might start having respect for truth and for the founder of the t= heosophical movement?=20 That'is only a humble suggestion from me. Think about that.=20 Best regards, Carlos.=20 =20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Mon, 31 Jul 2006 13:28:15 EDT Assunto:Re: Theos-World SOWING GOSSIPS >=20 > In a message dated 7/31/2006 10:26:36 AM Central Daylight Time,=20 > carlosaveline@terra.com.br writes: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Friends,=20 >=20 > To Daniel, every section of the theosophical movement is to be taken with= =20 > skepticism, if it should not be laughed at. See below.=20 >=20 > Daniel takes the Coulombs, or Solovyof, more seriously than he takes=20 > theosophists.=20 >=20 > And, of course, he aims at sowing dissent, systematically using differenc= es=20 > of opinions to discredit the movement as a whole. >=20 > Regards, Carlos.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Carlos, for the umpeenth time I have seen this derision of Daniel. You ar= e=20 > so well schooled in bibliography and theosophy. Why don't you write a boo= k that=20 > removes the Coulombs from the theosophical history books? Do some"silent= =20 > editing" and then tell us that you have done it. At least it will be a=20 > beginning, a real action....for which we could all thank you. >=20 > Please, Carlos, use your gifts for the spreading of theosophy....not the= =20 > spreading of derision and sarcasm. I am so tired of that. >=20 > Marie >=20 >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1154367164.760813.13459.mindelo.hst.terra.com.br,4093,Des15,Des1= 5 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 28/07/2006 / Vers?o: 4.4.00= /4817 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 07:09:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56809 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 14:09:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 14:09:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bulimba.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.194) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 14:09:11 -0000 Received: from calabona.hst.terra.com.br (calabona.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.5]) by bulimba.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9954F130C108 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 11:09:00 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: f36fe28b781c02cfaa567cc46b3bc194 Received-SPF: pass (calabona.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.5 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.5; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (aubari.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.184]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by calabona.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85FAB1BD416D for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 11:08:59 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 11:08:59 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.194 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: TO MARIE -- II X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=4t5DI3XyaQvGWuGbHLrk3Q_hRO1QVflLdXx3XSFQW-J2e6FP-W_HK9k X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34964 Marie,=20 Derision of HPB and Judge -- is it OK with you?=20 Just asking, Carlos.=20 > > Carlos, for the umpeenth time I have seen this derision of Daniel. You = are=20 > > so well schooled in bibliography and theosophy. Why don't you write a b= ook that=20 > > removes the Coulombs from the theosophical history books? Do some"silen= t=20 > > editing" and then tell us that you have done it. At least it will be a= =20 > > beginning, a real action....for which we could all thank you. > >=20 > > Please, Carlos, use your gifts for the spreading of theosophy....not th= e=20 > > spreading of derision and sarcasm. I am so tired of that. > >=20 > > Marie > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Yahoo! Groups Links > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosav= eline&_l=3D1,1154367164.760813.13459.mindelo.hst.terra.com.br,4093,Des15,De= s15 > >=20 > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 28/07/2006 / Vers?o: 4.4.= 00/4817 > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=3Dcarlosavel= ine&_l=3D1,1154441207.913946.506.mindelo.hst.terra.com.br,5865,Des15,Des15 >=20 > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/07/2006 / Vers=E3o: 4.4.= 00/4818 > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Aug 01 07:45:45 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59474 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 14:42:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 14:42:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.187.149) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 14:42:58 -0000 Received: from [66.163.187.121] by n6.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2006 14:41:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by t2.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2006 14:41:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.78] by t8.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2006 14:41:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 14:41:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20060801130736.79200.qmail@web32512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.163.187.149 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.27.130 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Jake on "Kyrie elision" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=xf3LELgAu54BZzMT8R303qSg2pj9PPmEWa2QMynIrWXIigLSCEqXMwJb X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34965 Jake, You write in part: "...Its disgusting and not worth responding to...." "In actuality with your methods, you are developing into a fine=20 Dugpa. In a few more years or incarnations - who knows?" Jake, I must say I'm surprised by your words.... But thanks anyway for your fine theosophical statement. I mean=20 the "Dugpa" statement you made. But I am beginning to understand what I guess one would call a=20 certain kind of Theosophical "ethics" that is quite judgmental of anyone who doesn't think and act a certain way. Makes for a=20 nice "Brotherhood."=20 Well, at least I see where you are coming from and your own mind set. Daniel http://hpb.cc From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Tue Aug 01 09:42:30 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83520 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 16:42:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 16:42:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net) (207.69.195.64) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 16:42:22 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.153.86.140.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.86.140] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by pop-knobcone.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1G7xEg-0002gp-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 01 Aug 2006 12:36:51 -0400 Message-ID: <44CF831A.70701@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 12:36:42 -0400 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 207.69.195.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Bill Meredith Subject: Re: Theos-World TO MARIE -- II X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763; y=yhgW6DW17_z_dsB1YMsWvAMrIOZIIHs9zaIR-7JUxHs7PDR-Usg4h20 X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34966 It appears hopeless Marie. Carlos and others seem to have decided amongst themselves that Daniel is an enemy of their Theosophical Movement and so his ideas and his work must either be destroyed or brought into compliance with the Movement as it is understood by them. That you and I can easily see the hypocrisy of their actions will not deter them. What I am learning here on theos-talk is that blavatskiosophists are willing to put blavaskiosophy before the ancient, perennial and universal wisdom of theosophy. They are willing to use whatever means necessary to defend the Blavaskiosophical Movement from anyone they perceive as an enemy -- including fellow Blavaskiosophists. In my opinion, Carlos uses lies and innuendo to attack the integrity, character and motives of Daniel. He may think he is justified in using these tactics because he believes that Daniel uses lies and innuendo to attack the integrity, character and motives of HPB and WQJ. I don't see Daniel doing this at all. What Daniel is doing is challenging Carlos to balance his thoughts within the contexts of other legitimate points of view. Of course Carlos does not appear to believe that their are any other legitimate points of view and so when he is faced with one he begins to call Daniel names and run away. He says that it is Daniel and KPJ and John Algeo and others who have the "same problem," but in my opinion it is Carlos with the problem. It is the problem every zealot has. They cannot understand, much less accept and promote, the legitimacy of any other point of view other than their own. I have disagreed, sometimes heatedly, with Daniel over the years. I have often referred to Daniel's style as prosecutorial, but at the end of each exchange I have felt that we each learned something from the other. I do not waste any effort disagreeing with Carlos because it appears to me that his thought processes are too rigid and too narrowly confined to allow for any broader theosophical movement whatsoever. However, I hope that Daniel will persevere in his efforts to share his understanding of theosophy and Blavatsky with the rest of us. As for Carlos, I do not perceive Carlos as a prosecutor so much as a persecutor. He attacks anyone by any means necessary who opposes his conclusions. Watch and see. peace, bill Bruce recently helped me to see that what Carlos and others call Theosophy is really Blavaskiosophy. carlosaveline wrote: > > Marie, > > Derision of HPB and Judge -- is it OK with you? > > Just asking, Carlos. > > > > Carlos, for the umpeenth time I have seen this derision of Daniel. > You are > > > so well schooled in bibliography and theosophy. Why don't you > write a book that > > > removes the Coulombs from the theosophical history books? Do > some"silent > > > editing" and then tell us that you have done it. At least it will > be a > > > beginning, a real action....for which we could all thank you. > > > > > > Please, Carlos, use your gifts for the spreading of > theosophy....not the > > > spreading of derision and sarcasm. I am so tired of that. > > > > > > Marie > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > > > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1154367164.760813.13459.mindelo.hst.terra.com.br,4093,Des15,Des15 > > > > > > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 28/07/2006 / Vers?o: > 4.4.00/4817 > > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra. > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite > > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1154441207.913946.506.mindelo.hst.terra.com.br,5865,Des15,Des15 > > > > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra. > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 31/07/2006 / Versão: > 4.4.00/4818 > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/ > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 10:01:11 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17729 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 17:00:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 17:00:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bulimba.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.194) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 17:00:25 -0000 Received: from caliope.hst.terra.com.br (caliope.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.8]) by bulimba.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15177130C10C for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:56:29 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 551526df14c53ddb099dfacce7f364c2 Received-SPF: pass (caliope.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.8 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.8; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (bengazi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.176]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by caliope.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2DC92820126 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:56:28 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:56:28 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.194 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: P. Johnson and Daniel Caldwell X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=GBxzEwv0zbmvdU59YpCwITF0JD8xPgTzTZuRSwLxOMjQRQy4vc_pBkU X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34967 Dear Friends, Take a look in this well-documented text, published in Theos-talk some six months ago. Regards, Carlos. K.Paul Johnson writes: David Green's crusade against the ULT. Feb 10, 2006 05:44 AM by kpauljohnson Folks, Now that the feud between ULT members and Daniel Caldwell has entered theos-talk as a two-way street (rather than Daniel just posting his side of things) I feel obliged to share some background material that will help explain the dynamics. As might be expected, I disagree entirely with the objections that have been made to the HPB Letters volume and Daniel's compilation. TPH books should be more in line with scholarly standards, not less. Suppressing damaging information out of spiritual loyalty is something that TPH has done too much, not too little. Nonetheless, whether or not David Green is an independent entity, Daniel has been on an anti- ULT crusade for a long time, and having been on the receiving end of a similar crusade it looks like it is falling to me to point out what has been happening: David Green and theos-talk Posting on theos-talk from 1998 through 2000, "David Green" appeared obsessed with attacking the United Lodge of Theosophists. For example, in one month alone, March 1999, he contributed more than 20 posts to theos-talk critical of the ULT, and a dozen more the following month. A year later in April 2000 he was still obsessed, contributing a dozen more such posts. His website includes twenty articles he authored which are critical of Robert Crosbie, and another four critical of William Q. Judge and Katherine Tingley: http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/ All remaining articles there were written by others. No one in theos- talk (with one exception) reports having met David Green in person, which is unusual in the small world of Theosophical history research. But he is clearly associated with Daniel Caldwell; claiming to be an Australian posting from Sydney, "Green" was in fact posting from the same Tucson ISP as Caldwell. A "see also" link to Caldwell's Blavatsky Archives website appears prominently at the top of Green's site. The two share a literary style that includes relentless rhetorical questions and extensive quotations from primary sources. They share a narrow set of obsessions, mostly attacking Theosophical and related organizations other than the Adyar TS. In addition to literary style and subject focus, Green and Caldwell created websites that are remarkably similar in appearance, which can be judged by comparing them; here is Caldwell's: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/ Google shows 82 appearances of the email address davidgreen@hotmail.com, every one of them in posts on Theosophical subjects within a period of about three years. One clear difference between Green and Caldwell, however, is that Green was regularly and overtly hostile to individual Theosophists in the ULT; e.g. these remarks to and about Dallas Ten Broeck and Jerome Wheeler: http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200004/tt00073.html http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/200005/tt00232.html Another notable feature of Green's activity was his complete disdain for reformist critics of the Adyar TS, who organized in the late 90s as the Association of Concerned Theosophists. He presented himself as Australian, residing in Sydney, wrote in a peculiar style in which articles were largely absent, and always called HPB "Mrs. Blavatsky." In general, he was contemptuously dismissive in tone towards almost everyone, as in this post to Govert Schuller: http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199808/tt00042.html His hostility to the ULT even extended to Dr. James Santucci, accused of excessive deference to ULT sensibilities, e.g.: http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199905/tt00066.html Occasionally a ULT member noticed something awry with Green, and commented on it, e.g. Peter Merriott: http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/199902/tt00125.html But no one ever seemed to connect the dots and suspect that Green was a fictitious persona. His posts were often devoted to stirring up antagonism, as evident in this post attacking HPB: http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199907/tt00015.html Here is an excellent article on Internet trolls, explaining the phenomenon: http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm which helps explain the history of Theosophical cyberspace. Some relevant points from the article: "An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people. Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish." All this applies to Green and his "colleague" Caldwell, but there is a big difference between the two in that Caldwell for many years refrained from publicly attacking the ULT, while Green did so relentlessly. Since Green disappeared from theos-talk, Caldwell has gradually become more open about his hostility to the ULT. Another difference is that Caldwell, more than Green, has been a practitioner of the troll technique called "flooding": "When a troll attacks a message board, he generally posts a lot of messages. Even if his messages are not particularly inflammatory, they can be so numerous that they drown out the regular conversations (this is known as 'flooding'). Needless to say, no one person's opinions can be allowed to monopolize a channel." "I love a good fight" was a very telling line, and I suggest that theos-talk deserves an honest explanation of the "good fight" waged against the ULT by Mr. "Green." Paul [Johnson] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Aug 01 10:17:55 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51164 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 17:17:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 17:17:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 17:17:55 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r7.6.) id r.570.468fdce (58677) for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <570.468fdce.3200e6ae@aol.com> Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:17:34 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5026 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.5 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Jake on "Kyrie elision" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162; y=AbZ3O97BToA3IN6W0zKHinnZCVSLbBL47Q9zCMI3U05Mu0xtQw X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34968 In a message dated 8/1/2006 9:46:45 AM Central Standard Time, danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com writes: But I am beginning to understand what I guess one would call a certain kind of Theosophical "ethics" that is quite judgmental of anyone who doesn't think and act a certain way. Makes for a nice "Brotherhood.nic If Dugpas really existed they would do a good job of recruiting for them, wouldn't they? I mean, given the choice between honest evildoers and self-righteous Stalinists... See, we can call names too. Chuck the Heretic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Aug 01 10:25:37 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80956 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 17:25:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 17:25:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.21) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 17:25:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n28.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2006 17:22:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.74] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2006 17:22:09 -0000 Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:22:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.21 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.27.130 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: Thanks Bill for your Comments X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=to7_ir5PdZXUEDmMmYoL4Z8grV5d7LzKSpSwlO3yZ7_t8igUtwo6-SNd X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34969 Bill, Thanks for your comments at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/34966 And regarding your comment: "....I hope that Daniel will persevere in his efforts to share his understanding of theosophy and Blavatsky with the rest of us." However little I may understand about Theosophy and HPB, I will continue to try to share it with interested readers. I do find some readers appreciative of my postings and that certainly far outweighs what a few here may say, including our beloved Carlos. :) Daniel http://hpb.cc From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Tue Aug 01 10:35:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66169 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 17:35:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 17:35:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net) (207.69.195.65) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 17:35:30 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.153.86.140.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.86.140] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by pop-scotia.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1G7y9B-0003n4-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:35:16 -0400 Message-ID: <44CF90C9.8070806@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:35:05 -0400 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 207.69.195.65 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Bill Meredith Subject: Re: Theos-World History vs. Moral Injustice X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763; y=oDeuzEaos7hccgIsntpm5H8Fz9pqQWnU3veZTBURHy0RMVyrzJS78K0 X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34970 I would say that if one is not very careful and does not remain constantly vigilant about one's own thought processes that this idea of being above dogma can easily become a dogma itself. Instead I would say that tTM is constantly vigilant against the insidious creeping of dogmatic thinking. <2. The truth that tTM puts truth above all.> A better version of this might be to say that tTM puts it's truth above any other. Truth is relative in this world of ours. To the extent that the TM is a worldly movement made of flesh and blood human beings, its truth is relative as well. <3. The truth that tTM ecourages Universal Brotherhood as a means to self growth.> So long as one does not mean that tTM encourages a universal brotherhood of only those individuals who all accept and agree with the fundamental tenets of tTM as outlined in these 7 "truths," then I tend to agree. Self growth must remain Self directed. <4. The truth that tTM encourages the study of Comparative Religion, Science, and Philosophy as well as the study of the Laws of Nature and Powers latent in Man as a means to self growth.> It would be important to add that the tTM supports and defends the diversity of opinion and contrary conclusions that are the natural result of each individual's self directed study of comparative religion. science, philosophy and the laws of nature and latent powers in man. <5. The truth that HPB, WQJ, and the Masters produced a body of work that provides a particular vocabulary for use in the Movement.> Yes, a particular vocabulary for the movement is fine, but when this vocabulary is demanded as the only particular vocabulary for theosophy in general, then I think this "truth" falls on its own sword. <6. The truth that the Movement's only reason for being is for its own propogation with the understanding that a search for truth and a practice of Universal Brotherhood as advanced by the Movement will make Humanity nobler.> Personally, I see this "truth" as self-serving propaganda for "Movementist." The only valid reason for the Movement that I can see is to promote theosophical awareness wherever and however it is expressed in the universe. <7. The truth that all members of the Movement are beholden to protect the Movement and further its interests to the best of their abilities.> Again, I see this as a "Movementist truth" not a theosophical truth. Exactly my point. This list is a theosophy list. Perhaps many of the arguments that are currently underway would be better served on a "Movement" list. I am tired of seeing people with different expressions of theosophy in their heart being railed against by Movementist who apparently do not distinguish their Movement from theosophy and in fact seem to put their Movement ahead and to the right of theosophy. I would say that if we broaden our perspective to include the particular language and foundation for discussion of others, that we are being theosophical. When we restrict our perspective to exclude the particular vocabulary of others and demand that everyone participating here in theosophy world use the foundation provided only by HPB and Judge, we are being Movementist. My response is not intended as a personal attack, but you will receive my response in the manner that pleases you most. --bill From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 10:37:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52313 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 17:37:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 17:37:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO buraja.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.198) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 17:37:38 -0000 Received: from calabona.hst.terra.com.br (calabona.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.5]) by buraja.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053A722A41D6 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:32:42 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: f9d202f39ce586871906d948b3c51754 Received-SPF: pass (calabona.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.5 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.5; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (bengazi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.176]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by calabona.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id E742C1BD415C for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:32:41 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:32:41 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.198 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: On David Green X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=IW4hQ519ASQ3ttn8ev6EZGoO4JD5_e1YIF40594H2KCszfzTRjUNLvg X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34971 Dear Friends, Take a look in this well-documented text, published in Theos-talk. Regards, Carlos. K.Paul Johnson writes: DAVID GREEN'S CRUZADE AGAINST THE ULT Feb 10, 2006 05:44 AM by kpauljohnson Folks, Now that the feud between ULT members and Daniel Caldwell has entered theos-talk as a two-way street (rather than Daniel just posting his side of things) I feel obliged to share some background material that will help explain the dynamics. As might be expected, I disagree entirely with the objections that have been made to the HPB Letters volume and Daniel's compilation. TPH books should be more in line with scholarly standards, not less. Suppressing damaging information out of spiritual loyalty is something that TPH has done too much, not too little. Nonetheless, whether or not David Green is an independent entity, Daniel has been on an anti- ULT crusade for a long time, and having been on the receiving end of a similar crusade it looks like it is falling to me to point out what has been happening: David Green and theos-talk Posting on theos-talk from 1998 through 2000, "David Green" appeared obsessed with attacking the United Lodge of Theosophists. For example, in one month alone, March 1999, he contributed more than 20 posts to theos-talk critical of the ULT, and a dozen more the following month. A year later in April 2000 he was still obsessed, contributing a dozen more such posts. His website includes twenty articles he authored which are critical of Robert Crosbie, and another four critical of William Q. Judge and Katherine Tingley: http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/ All remaining articles there were written by others. No one in theos- talk (with one exception) reports having met David Green in person, which is unusual in the small world of Theosophical history research. But he is clearly associated with Daniel Caldwell; claiming to be an Australian posting from Sydney, "Green" was in fact posting from the same Tucson ISP as Caldwell. A "see also" link to Caldwell's Blavatsky Archives website appears prominently at the top of Green's site. The two share a literary style that includes relentless rhetorical questions and extensive quotations from primary sources. They share a narrow set of obsessions, mostly attacking Theosophical and related organizations other than the Adyar TS. In addition to literary style and subject focus, Green and Caldwell created websites that are remarkably similar in appearance, which can be judged by comparing them; here is Caldwell's: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/ Google shows 82 appearances of the email address davidgreen@hotmail.com, every one of them in posts on Theosophical subjects within a period of about three years. One clear difference between Green and Caldwell, however, is that Green was regularly and overtly hostile to individual Theosophists in the ULT; e.g. these remarks to and about Dallas Ten Broeck and Jerome Wheeler: http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200004/tt00073.html http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/200005/tt00232.html Another notable feature of Green's activity was his complete disdain for reformist critics of the Adyar TS, who organized in the late 90s as the Association of Concerned Theosophists. He presented himself as Australian, residing in Sydney, wrote in a peculiar style in which articles were largely absent, and always called HPB "Mrs. Blavatsky." In general, he was contemptuously dismissive in tone towards almost everyone, as in this post to Govert Schuller: http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199808/tt00042.html His hostility to the ULT even extended to Dr. James Santucci, accused of excessive deference to ULT sensibilities, e.g.: http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199905/tt00066.html Occasionally a ULT member noticed something awry with Green, and commented on it, e.g. Peter Merriott: http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/199902/tt00125.html But no one ever seemed to connect the dots and suspect that Green was a fictitious persona. His posts were often devoted to stirring up antagonism, as evident in this post attacking HPB: http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199907/tt00015.html Here is an excellent article on Internet trolls, explaining the phenomenon: http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm which helps explain the history of Theosophical cyberspace. Some relevant points from the article: "An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people. Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish." All this applies to Green and his "colleague" Caldwell, but there is a big difference between the two in that Caldwell for many years refrained from publicly attacking the ULT, while Green did so relentlessly. Since Green disappeared from theos-talk, Caldwell has gradually become more open about his hostility to the ULT. Another difference is that Caldwell, more than Green, has been a practitioner of the troll technique called "flooding": "When a troll attacks a message board, he generally posts a lot of messages. Even if his messages are not particularly inflammatory, they can be so numerous that they drown out the regular conversations (this is known as 'flooding'). Needless to say, no one person's opinions can be allowed to monopolize a channel." "I love a good fight" was a very telling line, and I suggest that theos-talk deserves an honest explanation of the "good fight" waged against the ULT by Mr. "Green." Paul [Johnson] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 10:44:34 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31102 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 17:44:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 17:44:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO burta.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.199) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 17:44:33 -0000 Received: from camenana.hst.terra.com.br (camenana.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.12]) by burta.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2714B7814F for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:44:31 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: feda68d33d629df6a3c545782294b82f Received-SPF: pass (camenana.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.12 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.12; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (bengazi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.176]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by camenana.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599B64E0161 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:44:31 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:44:31 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.199 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: TWO SWINDLERS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=0_gqpQ6sBXTw9AZX_S-3wlmYjZXB3_g8tNJP9Sa1_pazAD_4l5EFJYY X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34972 TWO SWINDLERS=20=20 =20 =20 Dear friends, =20 In 1884, while still infiltrated in Adyar and living with the theosophists= , Alexis and Emma Coulomb =96 who are now among Daniel Caldwell=92s favouri= te =93historical sources=94 =96 started trying to get money by dishonest me= ans, which included blackmail.=20 =20 In May 17th, Damodar Mavalankar =96 Joint Recording Secretary =96 had to h= ave the following note published in the =93Madras Mail=94:=20 =20 =93Neither the Theosophical Society, nor Madame Blavatsky, nor Colonel Olc= ott, nor any other member or officer of that Society, will be responsible f= or any debts incurred in their name, either by Madame Coulomb or Mr. A. Cou= lomb. By order. DAMODAR K. MAVALANKAR, Joint Recording Secretary & Treasure= r. Hd-Qtrs., Theosophical Society, Adyar (Madras) 15th May 1884.=94 (1)=20 =20 Ten days after that, the Coulombs were forced to leave the premises of the= Theosophical Society. The two scoundrels then sold forged letters to the = =93Christian College=94 in Madras, in which HPB is made to confess all kind= s of forgery and falsehood. (2)=20 =20 Later on, Mr. V. Soloviof =96 who also had infiltrated the movement =96 ad= ded more material to the false accusations and forged letters fabricated by= the Coulombs. In order to escape Justice, Soloviof did this only after HPB= =92s death.=20 =20 These three persons have been freely used by Daniel Caldwell and John Alge= o as sources of =93historical information=94, and even as sources of texts = purportedly written by HPB, in which HPB =93incriminates herself=94.=20 =20 Of course, in doing this, Algeo and Caldwell are against all theosophical = historians and leaders in all time, from Henry Olcott down to Radha Burnier= .=20 =20 As there is no factual basis whatsoever to make circulate those old charge= s against HPB, there must be some other reason, probably =93political=94, f= or Caldwell and Algeo to do that.=20 =20 =20 Best regards, Carlos Cardoso Aveline=20 =20 =20 NOTES:=20 (1) =93The Coulomb Case=94, by Michael Gomes, =93Theosophical History Occa= sional Papers=94, Vol. X, Fullerton, California, 2005, 73 pp. See p. 42.=20 =20 (2) =93The Coulomb Case=94, by Michael Gomes, p. 8.=20 =20 =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 10:59:02 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98421 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 17:58:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 17:58:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO burta.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.199) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 17:58:51 -0000 Received: from calomba.hst.terra.com.br (calomba.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.11]) by burta.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8AF4B7807B for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:55:58 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 2b28297a1bd9f005b13e5d36152f8942 Received-SPF: pass (calomba.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.11 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.11; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (bengazi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.176]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by calomba.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62CA83108155 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:55:58 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:55:58 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.199 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: THE MIRROR X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=Z0JogHjAZvbvrdw5S6kD16UhllqtwFYMmtS7WzBiTtBdn2TahS1xH6I X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34973 Dear friends, This paragraph by Robert Crosbie may be worth considering:=20 H.P.BLAVATSKY AS A PSYCHOLOGICAL MIRROR "If we would look at the bodily H.P.B. as a mirror which reflected from abo= ve and from below as well, giving back to each who confronted it his own re= flection according to his nature and power to perceive, we might get a bett= er understanding of her nature. To the discriminative, it was a well of ins= piration; in it the commonplace, the Judas, the critic, and every other saw= himself reflected. Mighty few caught a glimpse of the real individuality. = Each got the evidence that he sought. We have the Master=92s words that the= body of H.P.B. was the best that they had been able to obtain for many cen= turies. Those who looked at the body and its human characteristics got what= the view was capable of giving them; those who looked at the mind behind g= ot what came from it, in the degree of their comprehension; those who were = able to look into the causes of things saw what their depths of sight gave = them =96 more or less of Truth. 'By their fruits, shall ye know them'. [Robert Crosbie, in "The Friendly Philosopher", The Theosophy Co., Los Ange= les, 1945, see p. 150.] Greetings, Carlos C. Aveline [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Tue Aug 01 11:03:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46258 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 18:03:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 18:03:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net) (207.69.195.71) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 18:03:03 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.153.86.140.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.86.140] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by pop-siberian.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1G7yQA-0000Ud-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:52:46 -0400 Message-ID: <44CF94E7.5030706@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:52:39 -0400 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 207.69.195.71 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Bill Meredith Subject: Re: Theos-World On David Green X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763; y=uMgg2bZT7E6cHiRLW8uZJn_jAvwAxgaJVLVU4pnn2I1z-hc_Sf4i4K4 X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34974 Carlos, with your permission, I can ask Paul Johnson to make the personal correspondences between you and him that were exchanged just prior to your arrival here on theos-talk available so that everyone here can experience for themselves the thought processes from which you operate. Do I have your permission? --bill carlosaveline wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Take a look in this well-documented text, published in Theos-talk. > > Regards, Carlos. > > > K.Paul Johnson writes: > > DAVID GREEN'S CRUZADE AGAINST THE ULT > > Feb 10, 2006 05:44 AM by kpauljohnson > > Folks, > > Now that the feud between ULT members and Daniel Caldwell has entered > theos-talk as a two-way street (rather than Daniel just posting his > side of things) I feel obliged to share some background material that > will help explain the dynamics. > > As might be expected, I disagree entirely with the objections that > have been made to the HPB Letters volume and Daniel's compilation. > TPH books should be more in line with scholarly standards, not less. > Suppressing damaging information out of spiritual loyalty is > something that TPH has done too much, not too little. Nonetheless, > whether or not David Green is an independent entity, Daniel has been > on an anti- ULT crusade for a long time, and having been on the > receiving end of a similar crusade it looks like it is falling to me > to point out what has been happening: > > David Green and theos-talk > > Posting on theos-talk from 1998 through 2000, "David Green" appeared > obsessed with attacking the United Lodge of Theosophists. For > example, in one month alone, March 1999, he contributed more than 20 > posts to theos-talk critical of the ULT, and a dozen more the > following month. A year later in April 2000 he was still obsessed, > contributing a dozen more such posts. His website includes twenty > articles he authored which are critical of Robert Crosbie, and > another four critical of William Q. Judge and Katherine Tingley: > http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/ > > > All remaining articles there were written by others. No one in theos- > talk (with one exception) reports having met David Green in person, > which is unusual in the small world of Theosophical history > research. But he is clearly associated with Daniel Caldwell; > claiming to be an Australian posting from Sydney, "Green" was in fact > posting from the same Tucson ISP as Caldwell. A "see also" link to > Caldwell's Blavatsky Archives website appears prominently at the top > of Green's site. The two share a literary style that includes > relentless rhetorical questions and extensive quotations from primary > sources. They share a narrow set of obsessions, mostly attacking > Theosophical and related organizations other than the Adyar TS. In > addition to literary style and subject focus, Green and Caldwell > created websites that are remarkably similar in appearance, which can > be judged by comparing them; here is Caldwell's: > > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/ > > Google shows 82 appearances of the email address > davidgreen@hotmail.com , every one of > them in posts on Theosophical > subjects within a period of about three years. One clear difference > between Green and Caldwell, however, is that Green was regularly and > overtly hostile to individual Theosophists in the ULT; e.g. these > remarks to and about Dallas Ten Broeck and Jerome Wheeler: > > http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200004/tt00073.html > > > http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/200005/tt00232.html > > > Another notable feature of Green's activity was his complete disdain > for reformist critics of the Adyar TS, who organized in the late 90s > as the Association of Concerned Theosophists. He presented himself > as Australian, residing in Sydney, wrote in a peculiar style in which > articles were largely absent, and always called HPB "Mrs. > Blavatsky." In general, he was contemptuously dismissive in tone > towards almost everyone, as in this post to Govert Schuller: > > http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199808/tt00042.html > > > His hostility to the ULT even extended to Dr. James Santucci, accused > of excessive deference to ULT sensibilities, e.g.: > > http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199905/tt00066.html > > > Occasionally a ULT member noticed something awry with Green, and > commented on it, e.g. Peter Merriott: > > http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/199902/tt00125.html > > > But no one ever seemed to connect the dots and suspect that Green was > a fictitious persona. His posts were often devoted to stirring up > antagonism, as evident in this post attacking HPB: > > http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199907/tt00015.html > > > Here is an excellent article on Internet trolls, explaining the > phenomenon: > > http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm > > > which helps explain the history of Theosophical cyberspace. Some > relevant points from the article: > > "An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on > the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and > upset people. > > Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for > their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are > hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite > human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel > no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater > the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they > see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows > trolls to flourish." > > All this applies to Green and his "colleague" Caldwell, but there is > a big difference between the two in that Caldwell for many years > refrained from publicly attacking the ULT, while Green did so > relentlessly. Since Green disappeared from theos-talk, Caldwell has > gradually become more open about his hostility to the ULT. Another > difference is that Caldwell, more than Green, has been a practitioner > of the troll technique called "flooding": > > "When a troll attacks a message board, he generally posts a lot of > messages. Even if his messages are not particularly inflammatory, > they can be so numerous that they drown out the regular conversations > (this is known as 'flooding'). Needless to say, no one person's > opinions can be allowed to monopolize a channel." > > "I love a good fight" was a very telling line, and I suggest that > theos-talk deserves an honest explanation of the "good fight" waged > against the ULT by Mr. "Green." > > Paul [Johnson] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 11:16:10 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44311 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 18:15:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 18:15:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bundure.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.195) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 18:15:55 -0000 Received: from aldabra.terra.com.br (aldabra.terra.com.br [200.176.10.17]) by bundure.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C1C9A02EB for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:11:02 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 61096b3af1f411a4c42d486ac2eef25b Received-SPF: pass (aldabra.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.17 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.17; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (bengazi.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.176]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by aldabra.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id B71FA11D80DC for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:11:02 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:11:02 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.195 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: Contrast is not Separation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=G5C1rylXoLP4AgHWvg6_JRoUiJAwu8j4rg_BNZyL76ibxkzFehiHcgY X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34975 Dear Friends, Whatever the differences among people in Theos-talk, a few things are clear to me. Differences are real; constrast is part of life; and life tests every bit of knowledge. But there is no separation among living beings, and therefore there can be no real separation among members of Theos-talk. At least in this sense, we are all brethren, including seekers, mockers, dissent-sowers, and so on. As if he wanted to illustrate the Pythagorean & Theosophical absence of separation in the Universe, astronomer Bob Berman wrote in the magazine "ASTRONOMY", May 2006 (p. 18): "We're not truly separate. Interactions between Earth and the cosmos are continuous. In fact, everything is so interconnected, the links so intimate, that the universe's emissaries pay continuous courtesy calls on our bodies. (...) Raise your palm towards Arcturus, the brightest springtime star. Feel anything? Well, at least you tried. This giant yellow-orange sun warms up your hand to the same extent as a candle located 3 miles away." Regards, Carlos. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Aug 01 11:26:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35646 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 18:26:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 18:26:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 18:26:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n17.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2006 18:25:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.91] by t7.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2006 18:25:18 -0000 Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 18:25:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.46 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.27.33 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: The Key to Theosophy : Online and Printed Sources X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=8WxNU6AtL4xgpuUnEhzhXkxeLdyoSTnWQ6JuzUvwUzA5oLTXoQKT5PJD X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34976 The Key to Theosophy:=20=20 Online and Printed Sources Suggestions and recommendations at: http://keytotheosophy.net/ Daniel H. Caldwell http://hpb.cc =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Esoteric World of Madame Blavatsky http://esotericworld.net/ Online abridged pre-print edition available at: http://theosophical.org/theosophy/books/esotericworld/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Aug 01 11:32:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41443 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 18:31:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 18:31:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8c.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com) (66.163.187.199) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 18:31:52 -0000 Received: from [66.163.187.121] by n8.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2006 18:31:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.6] by t2.bullet.sc5.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2006 18:31:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.78] by t6.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2006 18:31:12 -0000 Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 18:31:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.163.187.199 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:6:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.27.33 From: "danielhcaldwell" Subject: TheosophyOnThe.NET: Easy Net Access to the Classics of Modern Theosophy, etc. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=Cd0_vyeilnF4P8ziHn5mfZ9WX6kFqg-dQl_xjTlHa1qz9OhhB7SpoWCL X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34977 TheosophyOnThe.NET:=20=20 Easy Net Access to the=20 Classics of Modern Theosophy=20 & Other Resources. >From any computer in the world connected to the Internet, you can=20 easily access the classics of Modern Theosophy.=20=20 In the URL address box of your web browser, just type in, for=20 example, secretdoctrine.net and hit "enter."=20=20 The famous Mahatma Letters from the Masters KH and M can be easily=20 located on the WWW by typing mahatmaletters.net into the address=20 box.=20 Read more at: http://theosophyonthe.net/ Daniel H. Caldwell http://hpb.cc =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The Esoteric World of Madame Blavatsky http://esotericworld.net/ Online abridged pre-print edition available at: http://theosophical.org/theosophy/books/esotericworld/ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Tue Aug 01 11:34:23 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24015 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 18:26:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 18:26:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net) (207.69.195.61) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 18:26:12 -0000 Received: from dialup-4.153.86.140.dial1.atlanta1.level3.net ([4.153.86.140] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by pop-gadwall.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1G7ylY-0005L4-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 01 Aug 2006 14:14:53 -0400 Message-ID: <44CF9A16.309@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 14:14:46 -0400 User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 207.69.195.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: Bill Meredith Subject: Re: Theos-World Thanks Bill for your Comments X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763; y=fF8peVR3gP4V-utoTGa3z7Qv7b3XSYBttmgRLZryW6V-vu7_RCD1L3A X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34978 Daniel, I'm sure you and I will disagree again on some other day. :) but today let me just say, good essay in Theosophy World #122. peace, bill danielhcaldwell wrote: > > Bill, > > Thanks for your comments at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/34966 > > > And regarding your comment: > > "....I hope that Daniel will persevere in his efforts to share his > understanding of theosophy and Blavatsky with the rest of us." > > However little I may understand about Theosophy and HPB, > I will continue to try to share it with interested readers. > I do find some readers appreciative of my postings and that > certainly far outweighs what a few here may say, including > our beloved Carlos. :) > > Daniel > http://hpb.cc > > From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 11:45:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 58770 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 18:45:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.36) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 18:45:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO buraja.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.198) by mta10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 18:45:26 -0000 Received: from domoni.hst.terra.com.br (domoni.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.16]) by buraja.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 896B722A411E for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:45:24 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 83d8234fcbc5559ba25e353181bf96ac Received-SPF: pass (domoni.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.16 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.16; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (tamatave.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.181]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by domoni.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id D591A15880EA for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:45:23 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:45:23 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.198 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: BILL, JOHNSON AND CALDWELL X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=fL1lTHIP299YmREby98jOTrt_gbGS-icjm4cN4Yf7Ls--wAqsVzlcE8 X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34979 Bill, It sounds interesting (see below). You can do that, if Paul Johnson accepts= the idea.=20 I hope such correspondence will arrive here VERBATIM, that is, correctly re= produced. If that does not happen, or if you bring here incomplete inform= ations, I may have to clarify and comment.=20 I will let you know right now, in advance, my viewpoint on some aspects of = my dialogue with Paul Johnson, which was not extensive.=20=20=20=20=20 1) I never prejudge a person on hearsay, and PJ was no exception.=20=20=20 2) I did not know what actually was Paul Johnson's updated position with r= egard to HPB and the Masters, and I wanted him to clarify. Once he finally= clarified, I saw he was rather politically used by John Algeo and "David G= reen" as someone who could, in the name of "Science", bring doubt and skept= icism on Theosophy and HPB.=20 3) I do consider Paul Johnson basically an honest guy. He admits he is not = a Theosophist. On the other hand, he also had to have some courage to face= "David Green", "Terry", and "Daniel Caldwell". That clarification and shar= ing of information helped Theos-talk in my view.=20 4) P. Johnson possibly had to spend some time and effort to gather all the = informations on Caldwell's "work" which he brought here. It was an investi= gative work made by Paul Johnson and his texts have been not answered so fa= r by Daniel. That makes his texts on Daniel remain very updated, six month= s later. A close look at P. Johnson's texts on Caldwell shows readers tha= t there are real information in them.=20=20 In time: Theos-talk people may be surprised to see who helped Paul Johnson = in his investigation on Daniel, and I invite you to bring that info here.=20 Quite open to the dialogue, Carlos Cardoso Aveline.=20=20 =20=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:52:39 -0400 Assunto:Re: Theos-World On David Green > Carlos, with your permission, I can ask Paul Johnson to make the=20 > personal correspondences between you and him that were exchanged just=20 > prior to your arrival here on theos-talk available so that everyone here= =20 > can experience for themselves the thought processes from which you=20 > operate.=20 >=20 > Do I have your permission? >=20 > --bill >=20 > carlosaveline wrote: > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > Take a look in this well-documented text, published in Theos-talk. > > > > Regards, Carlos. > > > > > > K.Paul Johnson writes: > > > > DAVID GREEN'S CRUZADE AGAINST THE ULT > > > > Feb 10, 2006 05:44 AM by kpauljohnson > > > > Folks, > > > > Now that the feud between ULT members and Daniel Caldwell has entered > > theos-talk as a two-way street (rather than Daniel just posting his > > side of things) I feel obliged to share some background material that > > will help explain the dynamics. > > > > As might be expected, I disagree entirely with the objections that > > have been made to the HPB Letters volume and Daniel's compilation. > > TPH books should be more in line with scholarly standards, not less. > > Suppressing damaging information out of spiritual loyalty is > > something that TPH has done too much, not too little. Nonetheless, > > whether or not David Green is an independent entity, Daniel has been > > on an anti- ULT crusade for a long time, and having been on the > > receiving end of a similar crusade it looks like it is falling to me > > to point out what has been happening: > > > > David Green and theos-talk > > > > Posting on theos-talk from 1998 through 2000, "David Green" appeared > > obsessed with attacking the United Lodge of Theosophists. For > > example, in one month alone, March 1999, he contributed more than 20 > > posts to theos-talk critical of the ULT, and a dozen more the > > following month. A year later in April 2000 he was still obsessed, > > contributing a dozen more such posts. His website includes twenty > > articles he authored which are critical of Robert Crosbie, and > > another four critical of William Q. Judge and Katherine Tingley: > > http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/=20 > >=20 > > > > All remaining articles there were written by others. No one in theos- > > talk (with one exception) reports having met David Green in person, > > which is unusual in the small world of Theosophical history > > research. But he is clearly associated with Daniel Caldwell; > > claiming to be an Australian posting from Sydney, "Green" was in fact > > posting from the same Tucson ISP as Caldwell. A "see also" link to > > Caldwell's Blavatsky Archives website appears prominently at the top > > of Green's site. The two share a literary style that includes > > relentless rhetorical questions and extensive quotations from primary > > sources. They share a narrow set of obsessions, mostly attacking > > Theosophical and related organizations other than the Adyar TS. In > > addition to literary style and subject focus, Green and Caldwell > > created websites that are remarkably similar in appearance, which can > > be judged by comparing them; here is Caldwell's: > > > > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/=20 > > > > Google shows 82 appearances of the email address > > davidgreen@hotmail.com , every one of=20 > > them in posts on Theosophical > > subjects within a period of about three years. One clear difference > > between Green and Caldwell, however, is that Green was regularly and > > overtly hostile to individual Theosophists in the ULT; e.g. these > > remarks to and about Dallas Ten Broeck and Jerome Wheeler: > > > > http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200004/tt00073.html=20 > >=20 > > > > http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/200005/tt00232.html=20 > >=20 > > > > Another notable feature of Green's activity was his complete disdain > > for reformist critics of the Adyar TS, who organized in the late 90s > > as the Association of Concerned Theosophists. He presented himself > > as Australian, residing in Sydney, wrote in a peculiar style in which > > articles were largely absent, and always called HPB "Mrs. > > Blavatsky." In general, he was contemptuously dismissive in tone > > towards almost everyone, as in this post to Govert Schuller: > > > > http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199808/tt00042.html=20 > >=20 > > > > His hostility to the ULT even extended to Dr. James Santucci, accused > > of excessive deference to ULT sensibilities, e.g.: > > > > http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199905/tt00066.html=20 > >=20 > > > > Occasionally a ULT member noticed something awry with Green, and > > commented on it, e.g. Peter Merriott: > > > > http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/199902/tt00125.html=20 > >=20 > > > > But no one ever seemed to connect the dots and suspect that Green was > > a fictitious persona. His posts were often devoted to stirring up > > antagonism, as evident in this post attacking HPB: > > > > http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199907/tt00015.html=20 > >=20 > > > > Here is an excellent article on Internet trolls, explaining the > > phenomenon: > > > > http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm=20 > >=20 > > > > which helps explain the history of Theosophical cyberspace. Some > > relevant points from the article: > > > > "An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on > > the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and > > upset people. > > > > Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for > > their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are > > hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite > > human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel > > no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater > > the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they > > see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows > > trolls to flourish." > > > > All this applies to Green and his "colleague" Caldwell, but there is > > a big difference between the two in that Caldwell for many years > > refrained from publicly attacking the ULT, while Green did so > > relentlessly. Since Green disappeared from theos-talk, Caldwell has > > gradually become more open about his hostility to the ULT. Another > > difference is that Caldwell, more than Green, has been a practitioner > > of the troll technique called "flooding": > > > > "When a troll attacks a message board, he generally posts a lot of > > messages. Even if his messages are not particularly inflammatory, > > they can be so numerous that they drown out the regular conversations > > (this is known as 'flooding'). Needless to say, no one person's > > opinions can be allowed to monopolize a channel." > > > > "I love a good fight" was a very telling line, and I suggest that > > theos-talk deserves an honest explanation of the "good fight" waged > > against the ULT by Mr. "Green." > > > > Paul [Johnson] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@terra.com.br Tue Aug 01 11:51:54 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@terra.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80154 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2006 18:49:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2006 18:49:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO buniche.hst.terra.com.br) (200.176.10.197) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2006 18:49:20 -0000 Received: from calana.hst.terra.com.br (calana.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.10.6]) by buniche.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C5BC3DD80FB for ; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:42:09 -0300 (BRT) X-Terra-Karma: 0% X-Terra-Hash: 5abad91144bb1b03ff43f003e6a1ddd5 Received-SPF: pass (calana.hst.terra.com.br: domain of terra.com.br designates 200.176.10.6 as permitted sender) client-ip=200.176.10.6; envelope-from=carlosaveline@terra.com.br; helo=terra.com.br; Received: from terra.com.br (tamatave.hst.terra.com.br [200.176.3.181]) (authenticated user carlosaveline) by calana.hst.terra.com.br (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254E6450134; Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:42:09 -0300 (BRT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 15:42:08 -0300 Message-Id: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Sensitivity: 3 To: "theos-talk" Cc: "carlosaveline" X-XaM3-API-Version: 4.1 (B115) X-SenderIP: 201.11.160.212 X-Originating-IP: 200.176.10.197 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0 From: "carlosaveline" Subject: TO BILL on PJ X Mr. Green X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=264889858; y=jnrS0E266PljFBf8izfbSgA1zAnvmv482wWfm9cqNKZeoXTdBmEssxk X-Yahoo-Profile: cardosoaveline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 34980 Bill, It sounds interesting (see below). You can do that, if Paul Johnson accepts= the idea.=20 I only hope such correspondence will arrive here VERBATIM, that is, correct= ly reproduced. If that does not happen, or if you bring here incomplete i= nformations, I may have to clarify and comment.=20 I will let you know right now, in advance, my viewpoint on some aspects of = my dialogue with Paul Johnson, which was not extensive.=20=20=20=20=20 1) I never prejudge a person on hearsay, and PJ was no exception.=20=20=20 2) I did not know what actually was Paul Johnson's updated position with r= egard to HPB and the Masters, and I wanted him to clarify. Once he finally= clarified, I saw he was rather politically used by John Algeo and "David G= reen" as someone who could, in the name of "Science", bring doubt and skept= icism on Theosophy and HPB.=20 3) I do consider Paul Johnson basically an honest guy. He admits he is not = a Theosophist. On the other hand, he also had to have some courage to face= "David Green", "Terry", and "Daniel Caldwell". That clarification and shar= ing of information helped Theos-talk in my view.=20 4) P. Johnson possibly had to spend some time and effort to gather all the = informations on Caldwell's "work" which he brought here. It was an investi= gative work made by Paul Johnson and his texts have been not answered so fa= r by Daniel. That makes his texts on Daniel remain very updated, six month= s later. A close look at P. Johnson's texts on Caldwell shows readers tha= t there are real information in them.=20=20 In time: Theos-talk people may be surprised to see who helped Paul Johnson = in his investigation on Daniel, and I invite you to bring that info here.=20 Quite open to the dialogue, Carlos Cardoso Aveline.=20=20 =20=20 De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com C=F3pia: Data:Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:52:39 -0400 Assunto:Re: Theos-World On David Green > Carlos, with your permission, I can ask Paul Johnson to make the=20 > personal correspondences between you and him that were exchanged just=20 > prior to your arrival here on theos-talk available so that everyone here= =20 > can experience for themselves the thought processes from which you=20 > operate.=20 >=20 > Do I