From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Wed Mar 01 03:48:14 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27264 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 11:48:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 11:48:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.203.231) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 11:48:12 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n8.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2006 11:48:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by t2.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2006 11:48:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.74] by t2.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2006 11:48:03 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 11:48:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20060301045603.94884.qmail@web52103.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 216.155.203.231 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.165 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Theos-World A MAP: Sinnett, "Mary" and CWL's Fancies X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=Rr2BRcNXr35hYdh8eAn8KKLzSwl75Lq0ltM4vxfZaUX5Xq0t X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > HPB totally opposed mediumship because it strengthened the siddhis=20 It's the great discovery in yoga that "mediumship strengthenes the=20 siddhis". I think that HPB opposed mediumship because it sets a man under=20 control of foreign will and detoriates the health. CWL also wrote=20 that mediumship is harmful. I've read somewhere that he didn't believe in autencity of contacts=20 in Sinnett's circle but didn't want to hurt him. From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Mar 01 06:03:53 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35715 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 14:03:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 14:03:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 14:03:51 -0000 Received: from [216.175.108.205] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1FERv3-0005aX-6J; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 09:03:10 -0500 To: Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 06:03:02 -0800 Message-ID: <014d01c63d38$de9816d0$0a0110ac@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-reply-to: <1974710964.20060227223248@sova.us> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79872987d171bd3a61040c22104245ba89350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Causes for failure X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=IY8wmr5F82KYtvPVURUDdWImBBBsJBuyYHSNblEkhqwwmw X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 3/1/2006 4:57 AM Friends: In my esteem this quote shows some ignorance of "occultism." But this coul= d be said of a number of surveys. Let us review the primary basics: THEOSOPHY FUNDAMENTALS=20=20=20 " Logic flows from the fundamental assumptions of a particular perspective. Changing the perspective changes the logic flow. If one chooses as "defaul= t perspective" linearity, analysis and selfishness as separative forces, then such a "default" logic flow will be linear as well. However true philosophical logic is always global -- as it includes all aspects of Karma (in and out of manifestation, and in or out of many kinds of embodiments, further, Time (as we know it in our present embodied condition) is not of consequence. THEOSOPHY considers every Monad to be an IMMORTAL pursuing both its individual and conjoined progress, diligently and simultaneously The "One" who uses "logic" or any other honestly responsive process has to employ a wider perspective than any selected or analytical process. Who or what is THAT ? I mean the Chooser or the Selector - the "ONE?" A few questions are asked: How are the process we call: "logic" ( as mental honesty and consecutiveness ), "mathematics" ( as numerical, measurement, spatial, dimensional, spatial, abstract, concrete, etc... ) an= d "imagination' (the image building process, from empiricism and selection to conclusions based on (desire, wish, inclination, rigid exactitude, etc...) -- make you own selection -- to be considered and used ? Do they enter into this search ? "Creation" and "Parabrahm" are mentioned -- which are basics and fundamentals if we agree on their universality and impersonality. But how do we arrive with surety to such ultimates? Those notes may help us, but, let us observe a fact:=20=20 HPB's "Teachers" are not confined to Tibet. They are shown to be at work all over the world, and are aware of all events that had spiritual significance everywhere, as well as of particular individuals; and, They speak of Their wide ranging travels -- as can be traced from Their recorded letters and accounts. A review of "The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY" shows that it covers =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1 MAN'S PURPOSE -- Acquirement & Practise of WISDOM -- "THE PATH" 1 Morals of Immortality [ S D I 36fn, 225, 276, 634, 637-9, II 110, 272-3, 423 ] 2 Brotherhood [ S D : I 272-3, 574; II 616-17, 636-7; I U II 100; ] 2 MAN'S "EXAMPLES" -- superior Men (MASTERS OF WISDOM) exist. 1 Names 2 Teachings 3 Example 4 Agents & assistants 3 MONADS -- Universal And IMMORTAL Potentials Of Force. [S D I 610 - 633] 1 Monadic Essence & the endless, countless MONADS [S D I 176-9, 289] 2 Degrees and levels of Experience [ S D I 619, 632; II 33-4] "(Question: And for how long? Does this state of spiritual beatitude endur= e for years? for decades? for centuries? )=20=20 Answer: "For years, decades, centuries and millenniums, of ten times multiplied by something more. It all depends upon the duration of Karma...Every effect must be proportionate to the cause. And, as man's terms of incarnate existence bear but a small proportion to his periods of inter-natal existence in the manvantaric cycle, so the good thoughts, words= , and deeds of any one of these "lives" on a globe are causative of effects, the working out of which requires far more time than the evolution of the causes occupied..."Between the Kama-Loka and the Rupa-Loka there is a locality, the dwelling of 'Mara' (Death)...(lokas are not heavens but localities or abodes)...Devas into two classes--and called them the "Rupa-devas" and the "Arupa-devas" (the "form"--or objective, and the "formless" or subjective Dhyan Chohans;...the same for his class of "men,"...All these are: 1. "Rupa-devas" -- Dhyan Chohans, having forms; 2. "Arupa-Devas" " " having no forms; Ex-men. 3. "Pisachas" -- (two principled) ghosts. (see M L p. 110 described= ) 4. "Mara-rupas" -- Doomed to death (3 principled). 5. Asuras - Elementals -- having human form=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 6. Beasts-- " 2nd class -- animal Elemental Future men= . 7. Rakshasas (Demons) Souls or Astral Forms of sorcerers; men who have reached the apex of knowledge in the forbidden art. Dead or alive the= y have, so to say cheated nature; but it is only temporary--until our planet goes into obscuration, after which they have nolens volens to be annihilated. It is these seven groups that form the principal divisions of the Dwellers of the subjective world around us." M L p. 107 3 Sevenfold Nature and Sevenfold Man [ S D I 157-8, 572-5; II 596 ] Seven-fold Man and His Vehicles in STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS SD I p 157] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Classification in Vedantic Classification in "Esoteric Buddhism" Classification Taraka Raja Yoga =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1 STHULA SARIRA ANNAMAYA KOSA +=20 [Food made |=20=20 body] | STHULOPADHI=20 + | [ Jagrat ] 2 PRANA (Life) . | | [ awake in the body ] | PRANAMAYA KOSA |=20=20=20 + [Sutratma] + 3 Vehicle of Prana |=09=09=09=09 LINGA SARIRA or | Astral body + 4 KAMA RUPA . + |=09=09=09=09 |=09=09=09=09 |=09=09=09=09 + Volitions and| MANOMAYA KOSA + | FEELINGS | Mind sheath] | SUKSHMOPADHI | + | [Swapna] 5 MIND | | [ the dream | | state ] | VIGNANAM VIGNANAMAYA |=09=20 + [Knowledge] KOSA +=09=20=20 6 Spiritual Soul . ANANDAMAYA KOSA KARANOPADHI BUDDHI [Contemplative, [ Sushupti] [blissful state] [ deep sleep ] 7 ATMA . . . ATMA . . . ATMA [ Turiya ] [Upeksha] =09=09 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =09=09 CORRESPONDENCE : 7 COSMIC & 7 HUMAN "PRINCIPLES." : SD II p. 96] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D HUMAN aspects or COSMIC aspects or Principles Principles =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1. Universal Spirit (Atma) The Unmanifested Logos =09=09 2. Spiritual Soul {Buddhi) Universal (latent) Ideation 3 Human Soul, Mind (Manas) Universal (or Cosmic) active Intelligence=09=09 =09=09=09=09 4. Animal Soul (Kama-Rupa) Cosmic Chaotic energy 5. Astral Body (Linga-Sarira) Astral Ideation, reflecting=20 terrestrial things. 6. Life Essence (Prana) Life Essence or Energy 7. Body (Sthula Sarira) The Earth. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =09=09 HUMAN PRINCIPLES KEY TO THEOSOPHY, pp. 91-92 =09=09=09=09=09 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Sanskrit Exoteric Explanatory Terms Meaning =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D LOWER QUATERNARY a) Rupa or Physical Is the vehicle of all the other Sthula-Sarira body "principles" during life. b) Prana Life or Necessary only to a) c) d), and=20 Vital the functions of the lower Manas, principle which embrace all those limited to the (physical) brain. c) Linga- Astral body The Double, the phantom body. Sharira d) Kama rupa The seat of This is the center of the animal animal - man, where lies the line of=20 desires and demarcation which separates the passions. mortal man from the immortal entity. --------------------------------------------------------------- UPPER IMPERISHABLE TRIAD e) Manas --a Mind. Intelligence The future state and the Karmic=20 dual prin- : destiny of man depend on whether ciple in its which is the Manas gravitates more downward to function higher human Kama-rupa, the seat of animal=20 mind, whose passions, or upwards to Buddhi, light, or rad- the Spiritual Ego. In the latter iation links case, the higher consciousness of the MONAD, for the individual spiritual aspir- the lifetime ations of mind (Manas), assimil- to the mortal ating Buddhi, are absorbed by it man. and form the Ego, which goes into Devachanic bliss. f) Buddhi The Spiritual The vehicle of pure universal Spirit Soul g) Atma Spirit One with the Absolute as its radiation. [From: Key to Theosophy pp 91-2] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 4 The Gift of Mind & Responsibility [ S D II 94, 255fn, 412, 421] 5 Un-dying Race & Self-Sacrifice [ S D I 207 -210, 619; II 275fn, 281] 6 Immortality in Eternity -- always at constructive work=20 [ S D I 225, 276 ; II 110, 241 ] 4 MAN and Universal Evolution [S D I 181 ] 1 Spiritual 2 Intellectual and Emotional 3 Physical and Astral=20 =09 5 EARTH'S EVOLUTION -- A School for Immortals 1 Cycles of Time -- Manvantara / Pralaya [ S D II 596 ] 2 Rounds, Globes and Races [ S D I 200 ] 3 Reincarnation -- Rebirth of Mind-Monads 4 After Death States 1 Kama-Loka 2 Devachan 6 UNIVERSAL LAW -- KARMA=20 1 Cause and Effect 2 Harmony of Diversities 3 Reincarnation 4 Freedom is always self-governed 5 Service by the Wise to all (end of Voice.) 6 Retardation & Obscuration 7 Vortical, Reciprocal, Circular, Vibratory MOTION in Space and Time 7 ASTRAL AND PSYCHIC NATURE 1 Evidence and Purpose 2 Phenomena and Danger 3 Akasic Records -- History =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ANCIENT WISDOM knew - and continues to know - deep and vast knowledge about ourselves, our purpose in life, nature, the universe, the highest god-like principles, and man's long pre-history on this earth.=20 Theosophy is the portion of that ancient knowledge brought to us by H. P. Blavatsky toward the end of the 19th century, as taught to her by her Teachers . Some of its principles are: ........Everything in the universe originates from one boundless, eternal, unknowable source. After a period of manifested existence the universe returns to that source and has in addition. all the experience gained. ........The universe itself is an organic whole, alive, intelligent, conscious, and divine.=20 ........The laws of nature are the result of intelligent forces.=20 ........The law of karma holds throughout the universe. It operates at all levels, ensuring justice, harmony, and balance.=20 ........We reincarnate into successive lives. Once we have reached the huma= n level we do not regress back into animal forms.=20 ........The law of karma acts over our successive lives to ensure justice. (We don't get away with it.) We are the cause of every joy and pain in our own life.=20 ........A law of cycles provides fundamental structure at all levels. Two examples are our pattern of reincarnation, and the continuing "lives" of th= e universe as it appears, then returns to its source.=20 ........Analogy and correspondence provide fundamental structure for the universe. This is a broad statement of the Hermetic axiom - "As above, so below".=20 ........Evolution applies on a grand scale to all of life.=20 ........Soul (intelligence) is involved in this world of matter. It experiences and learns. Soul then works its way back in a long pilgrimage t= o its primal source. This again follows a cyclic pattern.=20 ........This evolution achieves experience, self-awareness, and ever increasing perfection. Evolution occurs on the physical, mental, and spiritual planes.=20 ........"Survival of the fittest" along with gradual accumulation of small beneficial changes does not explain the "origin of the species". The origin of the species is due to intelligent design.=20 ........Humanity has experienced significant evolution in long periods on the continents (not islands) of Atlantis and Lemuria.=20 ........There is a seven fold constitution of man ranging from the physical plane to the purely spiritual plane.=20 ........Thoughts are tangible objects on higher planes. Every thought and action has its effect on us and on our surroundings and has a karmic consequence.=20 ........The three higher planes of this constitution form the "higher self" and that is what reincarnates from life to life and accumulates the experience, the lessons, the virtues. The lower planes form the "lower self= " and are the vehicle used by the higher self while it is living in this active testing ground of incarnate life.=20 ........At the moment of death we have a review of our life just past - as we cast off this physical frame. After a short period, that varies greatly between individuals, we cast off other lower aspects of our constitution and the reincarnating self begins a long period of merciful, earned, rest before the next birth.=20 ........Often during this life, our spiritual nature is obscured in our self-centered daily lives as we cater to our immediate needs and desires. But the spiritual self is always there to guide us if we seek it with stron= g earnest desire.=20 ........We can strive to reach our Higher Self [ATMA] by:=20 ........Listening to the still small voice of our conscience.=20 ........Noting the dreams from the Higher Self.=20 ........Developing our intuition.=20 ........Meditating.=20 ........Studying principles of the Wisdom Religion.=20 ........Aligning ourselves with Nature.=20 ........Engaging in action for the greater good of all beings.=20 ........Carefully reading the events of our daily life.=20 ........Brotherhood is a fact in nature. We are ONE at the highest spiritua= l component of our nature. We are sparks from one flame. We are the fingers o= n one hand. We are ONE at other levels as well. We should:=20 ........Understand we are not separate from humanity or the world.=20 ........Emphasize brotherhood, altruism, and compassion in our daily lives.= =20 ........Strive to know our higher self.=20 ........As a guiding rule - act for and as the Self of All.=20 ........The religions of the world are branches on the tree whose trunk is the one ancient - once universal - wisdom religion. The religions are the tributaries of one great river. (But they borrow from each other to make th= e actual details much more complex.)=20 ........Mythology often transmits some of this knowledge in symbolic form.= =20 ........Periodically, great teachers come amongst us to help us in this evolutionary path. They may create another branch on the tree.=20 ........Humanity's potential is infinite and every being has a contribution to make toward a grander world. We are all in it together. We are one.=20 Is HPB or THEOSOPHY vague? Here are some ideas she placed on record. HPB said: Come to the S.D. without any hope of getting the final Truth of existence from it, or with any idea other than seeing how far it may lead TOWARDS the Truth.=20 See in study a means of exercising and developing the mind never touched by other studies.=20 Observe the following rules:=20=20 1. No matter what one may study in the S.D. let the mind hold fast, as the basis of its ideation to the following ideas=20 (a) The FUNDAMENTAL UNITY OF ALL EXISTENCE.=20 This unity is a thing altogether different from the common notion of unity -- as when we say that a nation or an army is united; or that this planet i= s united to that by lines of magnetic force or the like. The teaching is not that. It is that existence is ONE THING, not any collection of things linke= d together.=20 Fundamentally there is ONE BEING.=20 This Being has two aspects, positive and negative.=20 The positive is Spirit, or CONSCIOUSNESS.=20 The negative is SUBSTANCE, the subject of consciousness.=20 This Being is the Absolute in its primary manifestation.=20 Being absolute there is nothing outside it. It is All-Being. It is indivisible, else it would not be absolute. If a portion could be separated= , that remaining could not be absolute, because there would at once arise the question of COMPARISON between it and the separated part. Comparison is incompatible with any idea of absoluteness. Therefore it is clear that this fundamental One Existence, or Absolute Being must be the Reality in every form there is.=20 I said that though this was clear to me I did not think that many in the Lodges would grasp it.=20 "Theosophy," she said, "is for those who can think, or for those who can drive themselves to think, not mental sluggards." H.P.B. has grown very mil= d of late.=20 The Atom, the Man, the God (she says) are each separately, as well as all collectively, Absolute Being in their last analysis, that is their REAL INDIVIDUALITY. It is this idea which must be held always in the background of the mind to form the basis for every conception that arises from study o= f the S.D. The moment one lets it go (and it is most easy to do so when engaged in any of the many intricate aspects of the Esoteric Philosophy) th= e idea of SEPARATION supervenes, and the study loses its value.=20=20 The second idea to hold fast to is that THERE IS NO DEAD MATTER. Every last atom is alive. It cannot be otherwise since every atom is itself fundamentally Absolute Being. Therefore there is no such thing as "spaces" of Ether, or Akasha, or call it what you like, in which angels and elementals disport themselves like trout in water. That's the common idea. The true idea shows every atom of substance no matter of what plane to be i= n itself a LIFE.=20=20 The third basic idea to be held is that Man is the MICROCOSM. As he is so, then all the Hierarchies of the Heavens exist within him. But in truth ther= e is neither Macrocosm nor Microcosm but ONE EXISTENCE. Great and small are such only as viewed by a limited consciousness.=20=20 (d) Fourth and last basic idea to be held is that expressed in the Great Hermetic Axiom. It really sums up and synthesises all the others:=20 As is the Inner, so is the Outer;=20 as is the Great so is the Small;=20 as it is above, so it is below;=20 there is but One Life and Law;=20 and he that worketh it is ONE.=20 Nothing is Inner, nothing is Outer;=20 nothing is Great, nothing is Small;=20 nothing is High, nothing is Low, in the Divine Economy. =20 No matter what one takes as study in the S.D. one must correlate it with those basic ideas.=20 I suggested that this is a kind of mental exercise which must be excessivel= y fatiguing. H.P.B. smiled and nodded. One must not be a fool (she said) and drive oneself into the madhouse by attempting too much at first. The brain is the instrument of waking consciousness, and every conscious mental picture formed means change and destruction of the atoms of the brain. Ordinary intellectual activity moves on well beaten paths in the brain, and does not compel sudden adjustments and destructions in its substance. But this new kind of mental effort calls for something very different -- the carving out of new "brain paths," the ranking in different order of the little brain lives. If forced injudiciously it may do serious physical harm to the brain.=20 [from notes made at an interview with HPB by Cmdr. Bowen] CAN THEOSOPHY EVOLVE ? I would agree with: "It is possible that Theosophy, as a teaching, adapts itself to the socio-cultural reality of the age to which it is presented."=20=20 The description in MAHATMA LETTERS of the process of occult education and chelaship trials seems very real to me -- as I can sense that a careful student would observe similar or analogous events occurring within his purview as he lives. As I have observed, we need to learn to distinguish virtue from vice, and without any relenting, apply virtue to our lives, especially in private as carefully as we do in public. Is there any better way to live that makes living worthwhile ? IMMORTAL PILGRIMS Add to this, we need to embrace and apply the knowledge that we are "immortal Pilgrims," [ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS ], and we only incarnate in material forms for the benefit of the many "monads" who have less experienc= e than we do. [see S D II 167 ] Our fight is to live spiritual lives in an environment that is quite "hellish" -- where vice masquerades at every moment -- and we are pulled (by our "garments" of passions and isolation, -- all irresponsible desires) to believe that this one life is the "only" life -- a quite pointless and illogical position it is, when we consider there is so much to learn and t= o do in our world that is good and useful. How to do this deliberately and with sound planning?=20 MEDITATION Meditation ought to be along lines that help us to determine for sure what we truly are (IMMORTALS) incarnated to serve the unlearned children (monads= ) of our fancies and desires -- and change them into honest and valuable THINKERS -- and teach them and our lower nature where we can go if we wish to. What is the difference between spirit and matter? Between purpose and Law, and immoderate, pointless folly and stupefying 'entertainment' and 'excitement.' ? RELIGIOUS HEREDITY The passage of teaching, say from Krishna to Buddha, to Lao Tse and Confucius, to Zoroaster and Shankaracharya, to the Jain Tirthankaras, to Jesus, to Pythagoras and Apollonius, and latest, to HPB -- shows (to me) the changes in language but there is no change in basic teachings -- or do you see any? Both ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE give us all the necessary historical clues if we will only read and note them. Is that too difficult?=20 So to answer: I would say as before It depends on what you think THEOSOPHY is, doesn't it? To me it {THEOSOPHY} is a statement of LAWS and FACTS. They don't evolve, but concepts about them change.=20=20 Also the phrasing and examples used alter -- but not the FUNDAMENTALS. Are we afraid of TRUTH? If so, Why? What part of us welcomes it? What seeks to avoid it? How does that happen? We as human mind beings, are said to be immortals and to have reincarnated thousands of times, and yet, in our brain-minds that are changed every incarnation, we have no active tangible, locatable memory of those events -= - other than our characters and abilities (or their lack) to show for all tha= t work and time we have incarnating. Are we actually spiritual "teachers surrounded by hordes of pupils (little-lives, monads) and why are we ignorant of the actual condition, its urgency, and our responsibilities? Who or what is holding us back?=20 And of course that may not be acceptable as evidence. And my ideas may be too vague and impractical? If so, what shall I do with them? Had I best stay quiet?=20 Dallas =20 -----Original Message----- From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Vladimir Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 11:33 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Causes for failure The text given below was apparently scanned from a printed book and thereby contains a few typos, but not beyond readability. I deem it being quite pertinent to the recent debate on HPB's heirs. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D SOME OF THE CHIEF CAUSES FOR FAILURE=20 IN THE DOMAIN OF OCCULTISM That there has been a failure so far as the successful establishment of a vast organized body is concerned, is beyond controversy ; that is, such a body as was planned by the Initiates of the White Lodge when they sent their representative to the Western world. These causes were, first abnormal development of the quality of egotism unsupported by knowledge, among the early investigators of the Wisdom Religion ; second, great increase in the number of imitators of the phenomena produced by true Initiates, and the natural reaction which followed the exposure of fradulent methods of producing phenomena ; third, false claims to personal guidance of the unfaithfulness to vows of discipleship, and consequent contempt for such weakness in the minds of those who had previously considered such solemnly pledged disciples as examples for others to follow ; fifth, false teaching along the fine of sex ; lest, but by no means least, an army of braggarts who have constantly poured forth accounts of personal contact with the Masters, accounts in which the wisdom and worth of the braggart was duly extolled and the lack of spiritual perception in the case of their followers greatly deplored. The final result in such instances has been the arousing of suspicion and the direction of adverse currents of force against the true disciples of the Masters, which has stultified their efforts to interpret and give forth the valuable teachings of the Wisdom Religion to a world in travail. What should have been the greatest, most far reaching organized effort for good in the world, by this time, has become a heterogeneous mixture of small cults, each one under the direction of some pseudo-occultist who is incapable of fulfilling his or her promises to followers. Only here and there among these groups may be found a genuine chela of the Masters who is endeavoring to leaven the lump of fraudulent or unwise teaching presented to their number. Of all the enemies by whom these chelas are beset there are none capable of inflicting so much injury to the cause of occultism as the before mentioned braggarts, who by their claims of superior development and of the constant supervision of their "personal Master" arouse strong feelings of envy or of discouragement on account of the seeming difference between the claimant and his whilom student, who finally sinks into a state of despair or of disgust at everything bearing the name of occultism. Such an one is unable to recover from the shock to his inner nature throughout his whole life. The evident ignorance of the causes back of the desertion of erstwhile followers is the most hopeless feature of the failure of such self-deceived braggarts. There are false prophets, deceivers and liars in every religious movement, but there are not always the opportunities for braggadocio in those others that there are in a body of students of occultism. Eventually the truth will prevail in the case of the first mentioned movements and the deceived one will be rehabilitated in his own estimation, but in the case of the utterly disheartened and discouraged student of occultism it is difficult for him to recover his former state of security, for the claims of the braggart will present themselves repeatedly to his mentality, and he knows just enough of some of the facts of psychic development to understand that such claims might possibly be justified in the case of the braggart, while at the same time his Higher Self is trying to convince him of the worthlessness of those claims, consequently there is a continuous state of confusion in his mind and he never feels sure of either side of the argument. But for the fact that there are the few who have remained faithful to the teachings of the Masters who gave the truths of the Wisdom Religion to the Western world, those Masters might well despair. But while there has been the failure I have mentioned, in many instances, and despite the injury inflicted on numerous groups of people by the ignorant and selfish, the force of the main tenets of the Wisdom Religion - Karma, Reincarnation, and the Seven Principles of life - has permeated the thought currents of the world, as is evidenced in changes which have occurred in science, art, literature and religion ; and it is because of that fact that there will be sufficient antagonism opposed to the present day revival of orthodox philosophy to prevent its reaching the same low level of cruelty, inhumanity and pure diabolism which a similar wave reached in the 17th century when the notable Blue Laws enforced the burning of suspected witches, the jailing of the Sabbath breaker and the inhuman treatment of women accused of breaking the Seventh Commandment, as well as countless other crimes against humanity; and if only so much good has been accomplished the work of the Initiates of the White Lodge has not failed, in the true sense of the word failure. The return of the spokes of the cosmic wheel to a similar point of the world spiral is accountable for the present antagonistic wave against materialism and occultism. The course the wave is taking was to be expected. It will do its appointed work and make way for the return wave of the Wisdom Religion. Nevertheless, the has sustained a great temporary loss by the failure of so many students of occultism to rise to the heights presented to them, and their failure has made it so much more difficult for the faithful to accomplish the task given them to perform. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 From mkr777@gmail.com Wed Mar 01 06:18:32 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: mkr777@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41083 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 14:18:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 14:18:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nproxy.gmail.com) (64.233.182.196) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 14:18:31 -0000 Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id b2so93701nfe for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 06:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.49.87.6 with SMTP id p6mr117179nfl; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 06:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.48.241.7 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 06:18:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 08:18:29 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <440546AD.7070407@charter.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <209.134e6bce.31367bf0@aol.com> <440546AD.7070407@charter.net> X-Originating-IP: 64.233.182.196 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: Re: Theos-World On Daniel and Certain False Persons X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=243096636 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I completely agree with you. This is the only unmoderated independent maillist we have on theosophy. Let me add.... We are bound to have differences of opinion on theosophical writers and leaders and theosophists and as well as various ideas written about or discussed. But any amount repetitive arguments is not going to change anyone's mind here. After all said and done, what matters is what each one of us get out of the thosophical ideas written about and discussed here and elsewhere. Let us get on with discussions of items of great import to us as well as that of the world. Ramadoss On 3/1/06, Jerry Hejka-Ekins wrote: > > Yes, this is a great list. What makes it great is because it is a forum > where contributors from all Theosophical traditions are invited to > participate on an equal bases. That ideal is worth protecting, in my > opinion. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Mar 01 06:27:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83485 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 14:27:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 14:27:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 14:27:48 -0000 Received: from [216.175.108.205] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1FESIQ-0005Qu-UM; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 09:27:21 -0500 To: "'Theosophy Study List'" Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 06:27:16 -0800 Message-ID: <015301c63d3c$3ec70400$0a0110ac@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-reply-to: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79cc12c01b0d46059d4115ba17254795d4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: are there problems with information from the astral plane? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=Z-fm0M1jxl6AXE2If3HfTdQuxbXniBA0FUtQzHcijfsZTg X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 3/1/2006 6:21 AM3/1/2006 6:21 AM ASTRAL and PHYSICAL BODIES ( Ocean ) Wednesday, March 01, 2006 Dear Friends: THEOSOPHY teaches: BODY AND ASTRAL BODY The body, as a mass of flesh, bones, muscles, nerves, brain matter, bile, mucous, blood, and skin is an object of exclusive care for too many people, who make it their god because they have come to identify themselves with it, meaning it only when they say "I." Left to itself it is devoid of sense, and acts in such a case solely by reflex and automatic action. This we see in sleep, for then the body assumes attitudes and makes motions which the waking man does not permit. It is like mother earth in that it is made up of an infinitesimal number of "lives." "LITTLE LIVES" (MONADS IN PHYSICAL EVOLUTION,) Each of these lives is a sensitive point. Not only are there microbes, bacilli, and bacteria, but these are composed of others, and those others of still more minute lives. These lives are not the cells of the body, but make up the cells, keeping ever within the limits assigned by evolution to the cell. They are forever whirling and moving together throughout the whole body, being in certain apparently void spaces as well as where flesh, membrane, bones, and blood are seen. They extend, too, beyond the actual outer limits of the body to a measurable distance. One of the mysteries of physical life is hidden among these "lives." Their action, forced forward by the Life energy -- called Prana or Jiva -- will explain active existence and physical death. They are divided into two classes, one the destroyers, the other the preservers, and these two war upon each other from birth until the destroyers win. In this struggle the Life Energy itself ends the contest because it is life that kills. This may seem heterodox, but in Theosophical philosophy it is held to be the fact. For, it is said, the infant lives because the combination of healthy organs is able to absorb the life all around it in space, and is put to sleep each day by the overpowering strength of the stream of life, since the preservers among the cells of the youthful body are not yet mastered by the other class. SLEEP RESTORES THE BALANCE OF LIFE FORCE These processes of going to sleep and waking again are simply and solely the restoring of the equilibrium in sleep and the action produced by disturbing it when awake. It may be compared with the arc-electric light wherein the brilliant arc of light at the point of resistance is the symbol of the waking active man. So in sleep we are again absorbing and not resisting the Life Energy; when we wake we are throwing it off. But as it exists around us like an ocean in which we swim, our power to throw it off is necessarily limited. Just when we wake we are in equilibrium as to our organs and life; when we fall asleep we are yet more full of life than in the morning; it has exhausted us; it finally kills the body. Such a contest could not be waged forever, since the whole solar system's weight of life is pitted against the power to resist focused in one small human frame. PHYSICAL BODY IS IN CONSTANT CHANGE. The body is considered by the Masters of Wisdom to be the most transitory, impermanent, and illusionary of the whole series of constituents in man. Not for a moment is it the same. Ever changing, in motion in every part, it is in fact never complete or finished though tangible. The ancients clearly perceived this, for they elaborated a doctrine called Naimittika [the correct Sanskrit term is Nitya] Pralaya, or the continual change in material things, the continual destruction. This is known now to science in the doctrine that the body undergoes a complete alteration and renovation every seven years. At the end of the first seven years it is not the same body it was in the beginning. At the end of our days it has changed seven times, perhaps more. And yet it presents the same general appearance from maturity until death; and it is a human form from birth to maturity. This is a mystery science explains not; it is a question pertaining to the cell and to the means whereby the general human shape is preserved. The "Cell" and its Molecular Components. The "cell" is an illusion. It is merely a word. It has no existence as a material thing, for any cell is composed of other cells. What, then, is a cell? It is the ideal form within which the actual physical atoms -- made up of the "lives" -- arrange themselves. As it is admitted that the physical molecules are forever rushing away from the body, they must be leaving the cells each moment. Hence there is no physical cell, but the privative limits of one, the ideal walls and general shape. The "Ideal" shape set by the Astral Body The molecules assume position within the ideal shape according to the laws of nature, and leave it again almost at once to give place to other atoms. And as it is thus with the body, so is it with the earth and with the solar system. Thus also is it, though in slower measure, with all material objects. They are all in constant motion and change. This is modern and also ancient wisdom. This is the physical explanation of clairvoyance, clairaudience, telepathy, and mind-reading. It helps to show us what a deluding and unsatisfactory thing our body is. The "Life-Force" -- Prana (breath). Although, strictly speaking, the second constituent of man is the Astral Body -- called in Sanskrit Linga Sarira -- we will consider Life Energy -- or Prana and Jiva in Sanskrit -- together, because to our observation the phenomenon of life is more plainly exhibited in connection with the body. Life is not the result of the operation of the organs, nor is it gone when the body dissolves. It is a universally pervasive principle. It is the ocean in which the earth floats; it permeates the globe and every being and object on it. It works unceasingly on and around us, pulsating against and through us forever. When we occupy a body we merely use a more specialized instrument than any other for dealing with both Prana and Jiva. Strictly speaking, Prana is breath; and as breath is necessary for continuance of life in the human machine, that is the better word. Jiva means "life," and also is applied to the living soul, for the life in general is derived from the Supreme Life itself. Jiva is therefore capable of general application, whereas Prana is more particular. It cannot be said that one has a definite amount of this Life Energy which will fly back to its source should the body be burned, but rather that it works with whatever be the mass of matter in it. We, as it were, secrete or use it as we live. For whether we are alive or dead, life-energy is still there; in life among our organs sustaining them, in death among the innumerable creatures that arise from our destruction. We can no more do away with this life than we can erase the air in which the bird floats, and like the air it fills all the spaces on the planet, so that nowhere can we lose the benefit of it nor escape its final crushing power. But in working upon the physical body this life -- Prana -- needs a vehicle, means, or guide, and this vehicle is the astral body. The "Astral Body" has many names: "Linga Sarira" the "Design Body" There are many names for the Astral Body. Here are a few: Linga Sarira, Sanskrit, meaning design body, and the best one of all; ethereal double; phantom; wraith; apparition; doppelganger; personal man; perisprit; irrational soul; animal soul; Bhuta; elementary; spook; devil; demon. Some of these apply only to the astral body when devoid of the corpus after death. Bhuta, devil, and elementary are nearly synonymous; the first Sanskrit, the other English. With the Hindus the Bhuta is the Astral Body when it is by death released from the body and the mind; and being thus separated from conscience, is a devil in their estimation. They are not far wrong, if we abolish the old notion that a devil is an angel fallen from heaven, for this bodily devil is something which rises from the earth. It may be objected that the term Astral Body is not the right one for this purpose. The objection is one which arises from the nature and genesis of the English language, for as that has grown up in a struggle with nature and among a commercial people it has not as yet coined the words needed for designating the great range of faculties and organs of the unseen man. And as its philosophers have not admitted the existence of these inner organs, the right terms do not exist in the language. So in looking for words to describe the inner body the only ones found in English were the "astral body." This term comes near to the real fact, since the substance of this form is derived from cosmic matter or star matter, roughly speaking. But the old Sanskrit word describes it exactly -- Linga Sarira, the design body -- because it is the design or model for the physical body. This is better than "ethereal body," as the latter might be said to be subsequent to the physical, whereas in fact the astral body precedes the material one. Astral Substance is a Finer Material and very Strong The astral body is made of matter of very fine texture as compared with the visible body, and has a great tensile strength, so that it changes but little during a lifetime, while the physical alters every moment. And not only has it this immense strength, but at the same time possesses an elasticity permitting its extension to a considerable distance. It is flexible, plastic, extensible, and strong. The matter of which it is composed is electrical and magnetic in its essence, and is just what the whole world was composed of in the dim past when the processes of evolution had not yet arrived at the point of producing the material body for man. But it is not raw or crude matter. Having been through a vast period of evolution and undergone purifying processes of an incalculable number, its nature has been refined to a degree far beyond the gross physical elements we see and touch with the physical eye and hand. The Astral Model is the prototype of the Physical. The astral body is the guiding model for the physical one, and all the other kingdoms have the same astral model. Vegetables, minerals, and animals have the ethereal double, and this theory is the only one which will answer the question how it is that the seed produces its own kind and all sentient beings bring forth their like. Biologists can only say that the facts are as we know them, but can give no reason why the acorn will never grow anything but an oak except that no man ever knew it to be otherwise. But in the old schools of the past the true doctrine was known, and it has been once again brought out in the West through the efforts of H. P. Blavatsky and those who have found inspiration in her works. Astral substance and the Evolution of the Earth This doctrine is, that in early times of the evolution of this globe the various kingdoms of nature are outlined in plan or ideal form first, and then the astral matter begins to work on this plan with the aid of the Life principle, until after long ages the astral human form is evolved and perfected. This is, then, the first form that the human race had, and corresponds in a way with the allegory of man's state in the garden of Eden. After another long period, during which the cycle of further descent into matter is rolling forward, the astral form at last clothes itself with a "coat of skin," and the present physical form is on the scene. This is the explanation of the verse of the book of Genesis which describes the giving of coats of skin to Adam and Eve. It is the final fall into matter, for from that point on the man within strives to raise the whole mass of physical substance up to a higher level, and to inform it all with a larger measure of spiritual influence, so that it may be ready to go still further on during the next great period of evolution after the present one is ended. "Model of the Child" is first in Astral Substance. So at the present time the model for the growing child in the womb is the astral body already perfect in shape before the child is born. It is on this the molecules arrange themselves until the child is complete, and the presence of the ethereal design-body will explain how the form grows into shape, how the eyes push themselves out from within to the surface of the face, and many other mysterious matters in embryology which are passed over by medical men with a description but with no explanation. This will also explain, as nothing else can, the cases of marking of the child in the womb sometimes denied by physicians but well-known by those who care to watch, to be a fact of frequent occurrence. The Astral Body sets the limits of growth for the Physical The growing physical form is subject to the astral model; it is connected with the imagination of the mother by physical and psychical organs; the mother makes a strong picture from horror, fear, or otherwise, and the astral model is then similarly affected. In the case of marking by being born legless, the ideas and strong imagination of the mother act so as to cut off or shrivel up the astral leg, and the result is that the molecules, having no model of leg to work on, make no physical leg whatever; and similarly in all such cases. But where we find a man who still feels the leg which the surgeon has cut off, or perceives the fingers that were amputated, then the astral member has not been interfered with, and hence the man feels as if it were still on his person. For knife or acid will not injure the astral model, but in the first stages of its growth ideas and imagination have the power of acid and sharpened steel. Can the "Astral Body" move out of the "Physical Body ?" In the ordinary man who has not been trained in practical occultism or who has not the faculty by birth, the astral body cannot go more than a few feet from the physical one. It is a part of that physical, it sustains it and is incorporated in it just as the fibers of the mango are all through that fruit. But there are those who, by reason of practices pursued in former lives on the earth, have a power born with them of unconsciously sending out the astral body. These are mediums, some seers, and many hysterical, cataleptic, and scrofulous people. Those who have trained themselves by a long course of excessively hard discipline which reaches to the moral and mental nature and quite beyond the power of the average man of the day, can use the astral form at will, for they have gotten completely over the delusion that the physical body is a permanent part of them, and, besides, they have learned the chemical and electrical laws governing in this matter. In their case they act with knowledge and consciously; in the other cases the act is done without power to prevent it, or to bring it about at will, or to avoid the risks attendant on such use of potencies in nature of a high character. The Astral Body contains the Real Senses of Perception The astral body has in it the real organs of the outer sense organs. In it are the sight, hearing, power to smell, and the sense of touch. It has a complete system of nerves and arteries of its own for the conveyance of the astral fluid which is to that body as our blood is to the physical. It is the real personal man. There are located the subconscious perception and the latent memory, which the hypnotizers of the day are dealing with and being baffled by. "Astral Form" is released at death from the "Physical" So when the body dies the astral man is released, and as at death the immortal man -- the Triad -- flies away to another state, the astral becomes a shell of the once living man and requires time to dissipate. It retains all the memories of the life lived by the man, and thus reflexly and automatically can repeat what the dead man knew, said, thought, and saw. It remains near the deserted physical body nearly all the time until that is completely dissipated, for it has to go through its own process of dying. It may become visible under certain conditions. It is the spook of the spiritualistic seance-rooms, and is there made to masquerade as the real spirit of this or that individual. Attracted by the thoughts of the medium and the sitters, it vaguely flutters where they are, and then is galvanized into a factitious life by a whole host of elemental forces and by the active astral body of the medium who is holding the seance or of any other medium in the audience. From it (as from a photograph) are then reflected into the medium's brain all the boasted evidences which spiritualists claim go to prove identity of deceased friend or relative. These evidences are accepted as proof that the spirit of the deceased is present, because neither mediums nor sitters are acquainted with the laws governing their own nature, nor with the constitution, power, and function of astral matter and astral man. The Theosophical philosophy does not deny the facts proven in spiritualistic seances, but it gives an explanation of them wholly opposed to that of the spiritualists. And surely the utter absence of any logical scientific explanation by these so-called spirits of the phenomena they are said to produce supports the contention that they have no knowledge to impart. They can merely cause certain phenomena; the examination of those and deductions therefrom can only be properly carried on by a trained brain guided by a living trinity of spirit, soul, and mind. And here another class of spiritualistic phenomena requires brief notice. That is the appearance of what is called a "materialized spirit." The "Astral" forms the "Spook" after Death. Three explanations are offered: First, that the astral body of the living medium detaches itself from its corpus and assumes the appearance of the so-called spirit; for one of the properties of the astral matter is capacity to reflect an image existing unseen in ether. Second, the actual astral shell of the deceased -- wholly devoid of his or her spirit and conscience -- becomes visible and tangible when the condition of air and ether is such as to so alter the vibration of the molecules of the astral shell that it may become visible. The phenomena of density and apparent weight are explained by other laws. Third, an unseen mass of electrical and magnetic matter is collected, and upon it is reflected out of the astral light a picture of any desired person either dead or living. This is taken to be the "spirit" of such persons, but it is not, and has been justly called by H. P. Blavatsky a "psychological fraud," because it pretends to be what it is not. And, strange to say, this very explanation of materializations has been given by a "spirit" at a regular seance, but has never been accepted by the spiritualists just because it upsets their notion of the return of the spirits of deceased persons. The "Astral Body" and Psychic Phenomena. Finally, the astral body will explain nearly all the strange psychical things happening in daily life and in dealings with genuine mediums; it shows what an apparition may be and the possibility of such being seen, and thus prevents the scientific doubter from violating good sense by asserting you did not see what you know you have seen; it removes superstition by showing the real nature of these phenomena, and destroys the unreasonable fear of the unknown which makes a man afraid to see a "ghost." By it also we can explain the apportation of objects without physical contact, for the astral hand may be extruded and made to take hold of an object, drawing it in toward the body. When this is shown to be possible, then travelers will not be laughed at who tell of seeing the Hindu yogee make coffee cups fly through the air and distant objects approach apparently of their own accord untouched by him or anyone else. All the instances of clairvoyance and clairaudience are to be explained also by the astral body and astral light. The astral -- which are the real -- organs do the seeing and the hearing, and as all material objects are constantly in motion among their own atoms the astral sight and hearing are not impeded, but work at a distance as great as the extension of the astral light or matter around and about the earth. Thus it was that the great seer Swedenborg saw houses burning in the city of Stockholm when he was at another city many miles off, and by the same means any clairvoyant of the day sees and hears at a distance. Best wishes, Dallas ===================== -----Original Message----- From: Mauri [ Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:17 PM To: Subject: re: are there problems with information from the astral plane? If the astral plane is a plastic, dreamlike plane/medium, then wouldn't mediums (like CWL?), who go to the astral for information, tend to in return get an astral or symbolic version of whatever innate/latent mindset they might have brought into their astral experience? Eg, if a person has a certain kind of astral dream (one in which various frustrations are expressed and/or worked with in symbolic terms), then how is one to know whether one's dream content realistically connects with one's waking experiences unless one can, while awake, demonstrate some kind of what one might call "realistic conection" between the two? Eg, I recently had an astral (frustrating) dream (if frustrating dreams qualify as astral dreams ...) in which I couldn't find where I had parked my car. But when I woke up I realized it was just a dream because ... well, I knew where my car was in my waking life. But let's say I had a dream in which I drove over to Mars, talked with some Martians and drove back ... (not that I have had such a dream). I dont think I would readily proclaim on waking that my visit was for real, regardless of how seemingly real that dream might be. I don't know how CWL acquired his info about Martians, but if it was astrally, and if the astral plane is plastic, if the experiences/info to be found on the astral plane are affected by one's "waking initial assumptions," why would anybody want to offer such information to anybody else except in the context of a dream? Just wondering. Maybe I'm missing something. Then there's what's called "scientific remote viewing." Apparently that technique (per Courtney Brown and his books, eg) has also come up with Martians, among other things. I'm wondering if SRV is really a form of astral travel which might be no more reliable than dreams. Not that some dreams might not be seen to "more specifically" connect with or parallel waking reality, for all I know, but in cases where there's an absence of corroborating, waking-life evidence for such a connection, I think I might tend to wonder how the motives, personality and initial assumptions of the "scientific" or "astral" viewer might have affected the nature of their "viewing" (ie, regardless of how "scientific" one might have supposed that one's viewing and preparations might be). In other wods, I wonder if "viewing" within any kind of astral domain might be tantamount to interpretation ("interpretation," really, as I tend to see it) of the kind that would depend on initial assumptions, but initial assumptions that, because they're "astral" (given the nature of the astral plane as we "understand it"...), would be much more plastic and therefore much more influenceable (who knows across what spectrums) than the initial assumptions we have in waking life. In other words, if I have nightmares, seems to me as if that might be an indication that I might want to sort them out (by sorting out my waking initial assumptions, etc) before thinking about any kind of "more intentional" or "more awake" forms of astral travel (assuming I'd be thinking that my dreams might represent "less intentional astral travel"...). Speculatively, Mauri PS But what if dreams have some sort of intentional aspect to them, after all, in some very basic or latent sense (that might not even seem scientifically determinable), though they might seem "less intentional" or "more automatic" than the content of what's generally understood to be "waking life"... PPS But what if life in general is a dream, comparatively speaking? Compared to what? Isn't that the question that Theosophy and the EWT is trying to answer, exoterize about (while apparently misleading no end of people because exoterics aren't esoterics: because interpretations aren't direct experiences?). --- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@hotmail.com Wed Mar 01 06:32:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1658 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 14:32:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 14:32:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.224.43) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 14:32:39 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 06:31:52 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.224.200 by by105fd.bay105.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 14:31:48 GMT X-Originating-Email: [carlosaveline@hotmail.com] X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <20060301045203.43551.qmail@web52101.mail.yahoo.com> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 10:31:48 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2006 14:31:52.0281 (UTC) FILETIME=[E1D51C90:01C63D3C] X-Originating-IP: 65.54.224.43 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" Subject: Re: Theos-World Jokes and Jokes X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=214871911 Cass, I can live with that, Carlos. >From: Cass Silva >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: Theos-World Jokes and Jokes >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 20:52:03 -0800 (PST) > >The masters have always promoted a good sense of humour, I am sure they >would have no trouble laughing at themselves or laughing with Morten. To >sanctify them is outside the parameters of theosophy. >Cass > >carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote: >Dear Sufilight, > >If you make jokes with the names of the Masters, >I might make jokes with the Prophet, >yet I somewaht prefer keeping jokes away >from Masters names and from the Prophet's name. > >Deal? > >Carlos. > > > >From: "M. Sufilight" > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: Theos-World Better watch out who you pick on here, buddy > >Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:53:47 +0100 > > > >Yeah... > >I have just lend Master Morya's de- and re-materialising-kit > >a our local spiritual library. They said, I could keep it for this > >incarnation. > >:-) > > > > > >from > >M. Sufilight on his flying carpet... > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 7:33 AM > >Subject: Re: Theos-World Better watch out who you pick on here, buddy > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 2/27/2006 12:02:29 AM Central Standard Time, > > > leonmaurer@aol.com writes: > > > > > > It's no joke. Last Thursday, President Bush signed into law a > >prohibition > > > on > > > > > > posting annoying web messages or sending annoying email messages >without > > > disclosing your true identity > > > > > > > > > It should last five minutes in court. > > > > > > Chuck the Heretic > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Copa 2006: Juiz @#$%*&!? e mais frases para seu MSN Messenger >http://copa.br.msn.com/extra/frases/ > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail > Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Copa 2006: Sabe como se diz ‘pênalti’ em alemão? Clique aqui! http://copa.br.msn.com/extra/dicionario/l-z/ From mkr777@... Wed Mar 01 06:35:00 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: mkr777@... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81601 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 14:34:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 14:34:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO nproxy.gmail.com) (64.233.182.199) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 14:34:57 -0000 Received: by nproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id a27so96076nfc for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 06:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.48.238.3 with SMTP id l3mr118718nfh; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 06:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.48.241.7 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 06:34:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 08:34:51 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Theosophy Study List" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 64.233.182.199 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "M K Ramadoss" Subject: An interesting observation/statement X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=243096636 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is hard to believe that this was written 60 years ago. It seems to speak more than ever to our present situation in th world - Kali Yuga MKR ----------------------------------------------------- Questioner: You say the present crisis is without precedent. In what way is it exceptional? Krishnamurti: Obviously the present crisis throughout the world is exceptional, without precedent. There have been crises of varying types at different periods throughout history, social, national, political. Crises come and go; economic recessions, depressions, come, get modified, and continue in a different form. We know that; we are familiar with that process. Surely the present crisis is different, is it not? It is different first because we are dealing not with money nor with tangible things but with ideas. The crisis is exceptional because it is in the field of ideation. We are quarrelling with ideas, we are justifying murder; everywhere in the world we are justifying murder as a means to a righteous end, which in itself is unprecedented. Before, evil was recognized to be evil, murder was recognized to be murder, but now murder is a means to achieve a noble result. Murder, whether of one person or of a group of people, is justified, because the murderer, or the group that the murderer represents, justifies it as a means of achieving a result which will be beneficial to man. That is we sacrifice the present for the future - and it does not matter what means we employ as long as our declared purpose is to produce a result which we say will be beneficial to man. Therefore, the implication is that a wrong means will produce a right end and you justify the wrong means through ideation. In the various crises that have taken place before, the issue has been the exploitation of things or of man; it is now the exploitation of ideas, which is much more pernicious, much more dangerous, because the exploitation of ideas is so devastating, so destructive. We have learned now the power of propaganda and that is one of the greatest calamities that can happen: to use ideas as a means to transform man. That is what is happening in the world today. Man is not important - systems, ideas, have become important. Man no longer has any significance. We can destroy millions of men as long as we produce a result and the result is justified by ideas. We have a magnificent structure of ideas to justify evil and surely that is unprecedented. Evil is evil; it cannot bring about good. War is not a means to peace. War may bring about secondary benefits, like more efficient aeroplanes, but it will not bring peace to man. War is intellectually justified as a means of bringing peace; when the intellect has the upper hand in human life, it brings about an unprecedented crisis. There are other causes also which indicate an unprecedented crisis. One of them is the extraordinary importance man is going to sensate values, to property, to name, to caste and country, to the particular label you wear. You are either a Mohammedan or a Hindu, a Christian or a Communist. Name and property, caste and country, have become predominantly important, which means that man is caught in sensate value, the value of things, whether made by the mind or by the hand. Things made by the hand or by the mind have become so important that we are killing, destroying, butchering, liquidating each other because of them. We are nearing the edge of a precipice; every action is leading us there, every political, every economic action is bringing us inevitably to the precipice, dragging us into this chaotic, confusing abyss. Therefore the crisis is unprecedented and it demands unprecedented action. To leave, to step out of that crisis, needs a timeless action, an action which is not based on idea, on system, because any action which is based on a system, on an idea, will inevitably lead to frustration. Such action merely brings us back to the abyss by a different route. As the crisis is unprecedented there must also be unprecedented action, which means that the regeneration of the individual must be instantaneous, not a process of time. It must take place now, not tomorrow; for tomorrow is a process of disintegration. If I think of transforming myself tomorrow I invite confusion, I am still within the field of destruction. Is it possible to change now? Is it possible completely to transform oneself in the immediate, in the now? I say it is. The point is that as the crisis is of an exceptional character to meet it there must be revolution in thinking; and this revolution cannot take place through another, through any book, through any organization. It must come through us, through each one of us. Only then can we create a new society, a new structure away from this horror, away from these extraordinarily destructive forces that are being accumulated, piled up; and that transformation comes into being only when you as an individual begin to be aware of yourself in every thought, action and feeling. The First And Last Freedom, [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlosaveline@hotmail.com Wed Mar 01 06:47:05 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62156 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 14:47:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 14:47:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.224.36) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 14:47:04 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 06:47:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.224.200 by by105fd.bay105.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 14:47:01 GMT X-Originating-Email: [carlosaveline@hotmail.com] X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 10:47:01 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2006 14:47:02.0865 (UTC) FILETIME=[00953410:01C63D3F] X-Originating-IP: 65.54.224.36 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" Subject: Paul Johnson on Daniel Caldwell X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=214871911 Dear Friends, These, below, are same issues recently raised by Paul Johnson and which Daniel Caldwell so far has not clarified. Best regards, Carlos. ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo "David Green and Me", by Paul Johnson Theos-Talk --- 13 Feb 2006 Dear friends, My first post on David Green focused on his attacks on the ULT. But another group disliked by Wheaton and Adyar was also the focus of his contempt, a short-lived reform group to which I belonged in 1998. Not long after I wrote a rebuttal to Daniel Caldwell's "House of Cards" attack on my books that appeared on Professor David Lane's website, I received an invitation from David Green to have it also published on his Critical History website. He told me he was a student writing a paper, not a Theosophist, and taking mainly a critical view of the subject. For almost ten years now his site has hosted material written by me, which I find discomfiting now in light of the apparent fictitiousness of his persona. My online publisher is a phantom, at best. Although I let my membership in the Adyar TS expire in 1996, two years later I renewed it for a year when invited to participate in a reformist effort called the Association of Concerned Theosophists. ACT's focus was using the TS electoral system to counter the personal autocracy of John Algeo and bring more freedom and openness to the American Section. A notable feature of Green's online activity was his complete disdain for critics of the Adyar TS, especially the Association of Concerned Theosophists. He presented himself as Australian, residing in Sydney, and was overtly disdainful of Leadbeater and other post-Blavatskian figures in Theosophical history, as well as of me: http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199808/tt00044.html Look for his contemptuous, dismissive remarks to others like Richard Ihle or John Crocker to get a feel for the function of his presence at the time in Theosophical online discussion. Another pattern of Green's postings was evident trolling, that is stirring up antagonism, as evident in this exchange with Frank Reitemeyer, designed to get *me* attacked: http://www.theosophy.com/theos-talk/199906/tt00048.html Caldwell and Green were/are both equally intent on creating antagonism and trying to direct others' hostility toward targets other than themselves. I have been the most frequent "beneficiary" of such treatment from Caldwell, who has delighted in stirring up fundamentalist Theosophists into rage against my books. But at least that is straightforward, whereas when "Green" posted seemingly favorable remarks about my books, in truth "he" was dishonestly stirring up anger towards me and insuring that harsh reactions would ensue directed not at him but at me. Caldwell befriended the ULT and was lionized as a hero by them (some of them) as a great scholar and ultimate rebutter-- while Green was furiously attacking them, that helped created a paranoid and contentious atmosphere online which served the purposes of no one but... ??? Who gains from all this? That's the big question, Paul next: what about Terry Hobbes? _________________________________________________________________ Copa 2006: Juiz @#$%*&!? e mais frases para seu MSN Messenger http://copa.br.msn.com/extra/frases/ From plcoles1@yahoo.com.au Wed Mar 01 06:51:43 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: plcoles1@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25393 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 14:51:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 14:51:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1a.bullet.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.35) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 14:51:42 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n1.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2006 14:51:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.72] by t3.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2006 14:51:32 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 14:51:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20060301044249.40475.qmail@web52101.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.35 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.59.211.218 From: "plcoles1" Subject: Re: Theos-World Using a process of deductive logic X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=237271074; y=H9kPzmwLqcHToNClX2KUSWLYX28TDLsSGNubkfbvwhRfsUE X-Yahoo-Profile: plcoles1 Dear Cass, The issue for me is not what CWL believed or taught as an individual, he wa= s entitled to=20 believe and teach what he wanted to, as any other person is. The question that I think needs to be looked at is firstly whether his teac= hings are=20 philosophically consistent with those given by HPB in the Secret doctrine. If they aren't how are they different? and why might these differences be i= mportant to=20 know about? It's not a question of saying the Secret doctrine has the truth and CWL doe= sn't, but rather=20 looking at the two points of view and seeing how they differ and what are t= he implications=20 of these differences. We are all free to choose which ideas resonate with us most. For me the second question is, are CWL's teaching retrograde to what the Ma= hatma's and=20 HPB put forward in their teachings? It seems to me that HPB's teachings took people out of their comfort zone a= nd into their=20 learning and questioning zone, however CWL it seems to me took people back= into their=20 old comfort zones of `God' or the Logos as a personified being, as well the= other big=20 retrograde step in my opinion is encouraging peoples mindsets BACK into be= lieving clergy=20 had special powers that the lay person didn't,saviours....... It may have been put forward in a more new age-ee way but the underlying pr= emise was=20 the same. In other words giving away power to external authorities and looking for a = saviour in one=20 shape or form be that a sacrament or a God to invoke for protection. CWL's teachings have a popular appeal, in my opinion, because they don't ch= allenge the=20 mind in the way the HPB/Mahatma material does. In other words moving people towards giving away their power to external au= thorities and=20 seeking saviours, rather than exercising their own thinking and acting powe= rs. Personally this is why I think HPB said that these types of beliefs are so = dangerous because=20 they ultimately lead people away from finding a deeper understanding of tru= th and lead=20 them in the `wrong' direction. Continually asking questions and checking our motives is hard work and not = everyone's=20 cup of tea. Most people seek comfort over knowledge and so will move towards ideas that= they feel=20 comfortable with, which is ok, however it will hamper learning and effectiv= ely keep us in=20 our old "worn grooves". The word God is one that has different meanings to different people and onl= y a process of=20 enquiry can begin to try and help us to understand what someone may actuall= y be trying=20 to express when they use the term God. What we choose to believe we are free to believe, what we teach we are free= to teach, these=20 are just some points and where my process has taken me. Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > Hello Perry > Did the Liberal Catholic Church under Leadbeater propose a personal god? = Also, I find it=20 very interesting that he would become a member/founder of an organization w= hich clearly=20 was opposed by HPB and the masters. A bit of a slap in the face. > Cass >=20 > plcoles1 wrote: Using a process of deductive logic, given = HPB's very=20 clear warnings=20 > regarding " those charlatanesque imitations of Occultism and=20 > Theosophy. . . . " and the fact that CWL distorted the many of the=20 > teachings and clearly and demonstrably promoted many of the things=20 > Blavatsky warned all theosophists to guard against be "palmed off on=20 > the unwary as revelations of new and undreamed of truths". >=20 > How can it logically and rationally be agued that CWL was anything=20 > other than a failure in respect to his theosophical career? > If it can be argued then what is the argument? >=20 > I ask this not as a provocation or of any angst but to see if a=20 > rational and consistent argument can be put forward by anyone as to=20 > how this anomaly can be justified. >=20 > So far I haven't heard any logical rational for this position given=20 > by anyone. >=20 >=20=20 > The quote I posted from Blavatsky "Danger's on the path IV" was=20 > because this is a serious theosophical danger according to HPB, that=20 > needs to be debated rationally and objectively. >=20 > We need to put our own biases to one side and ask ourselves, given=20 > HPB's very clear warning, for one thing, how do we or can we justify=20 > Leadbeaters teachings which clearly in many cases opposite to those=20 > put forward in the Blavatsky/Mahatma material be then presented as=20 > theosophical given HPB's warning? >=20 > Are we as responsible students to just ignore this warning? >=20 > Perhaps we should these are all debateable points. > Maybe along the lines of why would HPB find these issues to be such a=20 > danger. > Rather than get into bias we can explore the reasons and why=EF=BF=BD=EF= =BF=BD.. >=20 > Can we enter some kind of Socratic dialogue over this perhaps? >=20 > Surely this is the spirit of theosophical group. >=20 > Or are we to drink the hemlock ? Peace at all costs ? >=20 > Sincerely=20 >=20 > Perry > =EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD= =EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF= =BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD=EF=BF=BD.. >=20 > ". . . A new and rapidly growing danger. . . is threatening . . .=20 > the spread of > the pure > Esoteric Philosophy and knowledge. . . . I allude to those=20 > charlatanesque > imitations of > Occultism and Theosophy. . . . " >=20 > "By pandering to the prejudices of people, and especially by adopting=20 > the false > ideas of a > personal God and a personal, carnalized Saviour, as the groundwork of=20 > their > teaching, the > leaders of this 'swindle' (for such it is) are endeavoring to draw=20 > men to them > and in > particular to turn Theosophists from the true path." >=20 > ". . . A close examination will assuredly reveal. . . materials=20 > largely stolen . > . . from > Theosophical writings. . . [and] distorted and falsified so as to be=20 > palmed off > on the > unwary as revelations of new and undreamed of truths. But many will=20 > neither have > the time > nor the opportunity for such a thorough investigation; and before=20 > they become > aware of > the imposture they may be led far from the Truth." >=20 > ". . . Nothing is more dangerous to Esoteric Truth than the garbled=20 > and > distorted versions > disfigured to suit the prejudices and tastes of men in general." >=20 > Blavatsky, H.P. E.S. Instruction No. I., 1889. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=09=09 > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From carlosaveline@hotmail.com Wed Mar 01 07:02:39 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22179 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 15:02:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 15:02:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.224.19) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 15:02:38 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 07:02:14 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.224.200 by by105fd.bay105.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:02:11 GMT X-Originating-Email: [carlosaveline@hotmail.com] X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 11:02:11 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2006 15:02:14.0852 (UTC) FILETIME=[202B6040:01C63D41] X-Originating-IP: 65.54.224.19 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" Subject: "Terry Hobbes" and Paul Johnson X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=214871911 Dear Friends, This is something which Daniel Caldwell did not comment yet. Best regards, Carlos. ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo What About Terry Hobbes? by Paul Johnson Monday, 13 Feb 2006, Theos-talk. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Hey, On my first week in cyberspace I joined the newly-created theos-l, and was soon greeted by a message from "Terry Hobbes" denouncing my self- published book In Search of the Masters and promoting an "Open Letter to Paul Johnson" that could be purchased from Daniel Caldwell for $8. Here is my reply which includes the post from Hobbes: http://www.theos-l.com/archives/199312/tl00105.html This was disturbing because I had entered into correspondence with Mr. Caldwell with the specific understanding that it remain private. When I posted to this effect, "Hobbes" then reported a "telephone conversation" with Caldwell and related the content. http://www.theos-l.com/archives/199312/tl00113.html Compared to Green's, Hobbes's career in Theosophical cyberspace was very brief, lasting only from late 1993 to early 1994. However, many years later he reappeared as author of an article on Caldwell's website: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/latermessengers.htm and like the articles written by Green, these share several Caldwellian features. The theme is Caldwell's usual obsession, attacking various claimants to succession from HPB. The style is his, again with large excerpts from primary sources, plentiful rhetorical questions, and a general hectoring tone. Moreover, Google shows the email address used by Hobbes back in 1993-4, hobb@delphi.com, to have appeared online only in Theosophical discussions. So this is another person whose existence is in doubt, and who might have been an alter ego for Mr. Caldwell. While Hobbes was not nearly as nasty and confrontational as Green, the dishonesty and manipulation are even more striking in that Hobbes reported a conversation with Caldwell and engaged me in discussion under what now appear to be false pretenses. It's quite amazing to consider that from week one in cyberspace back in 1993 I was being stalked by this Internet troll. Unless, of course, there is a real Terry Hobbes in which case I'd appreciate confirmation of his existence. Paul [Johnson] _________________________________________________________________ Com o MSN Spaces você divide seu blog, suas fotos, sua lista de música e muito mais com seus amigos! Crie já o seu espaço online e com seus amigos! E só entra no http://spaces.msn.com/ From plcoles1@yahoo.com.au Wed Mar 01 07:21:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: plcoles1@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98751 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 15:21:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 15:21:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1a.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.203.221) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 15:21:56 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n1.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2006 15:21:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.4] by t2.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2006 15:21:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.80] by t4.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2006 15:21:24 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:21:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 216.155.203.221 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.59.211.218 From: "plcoles1" Subject: Big history X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=237271074; y=64elT6lovwJrVlkTfShFrK0hE_pjV3Wm9EUOMaxnXI-D93Y X-Yahoo-Profile: plcoles1 Looks like an interesting area of research : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_History http://tinyurl.com/kf3dt Perry From carlosaveline@hotmail.com Wed Mar 01 07:28:44 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10355 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 15:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 15:28:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.224.40) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 15:28:44 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 07:27:18 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.224.200 by by105fd.bay105.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:27:16 GMT X-Originating-Email: [carlosaveline@hotmail.com] X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 11:27:16 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2006 15:27:18.0942 (UTC) FILETIME=[A0AD4BE0:01C63D44] X-Originating-IP: 65.54.224.40 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?IExlYWRiZWF0ZXKScyBGcmF1ZHMgYW5kIEVybmVzdCBXb29k?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=214871911 oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo CWL’s False Clairvoyance Was Nothing But Imagination ERNEST WOOD REVEALS LEADBEATER’S FRAUD oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Mr. Ernest Wood served for many years as C.W. Leadbeater’s private secretary and as the International Secretary, Adyar. On the false clairvoyance possessed by CWL, Mr. Wood gives us this first-hand testimony in his book “Is This Theosophy?”: “Another friend, an European doctor, quietly severed his connection with Mr. Leadbeater altogether. He was the only person, as far as I know, who ever tried secretly to put Mr. Leadbeater to the test. They were very friendly and had been together to a theatre. This gentleman deliberately pretended that he had a vision of two gigantic figures one on each side of the stage, standing up there like the guardian genii of Indian temples, or Japanese doorways. He described them, and Mr. Leadbeater, he said, told him he was correct.” “There was an explanation for this, however. Mr. Leadbeater always gave great credit to imagination as verging to clairvoyance. When you imagine something, he would say, there is always something present to cause that imagination. He held that the best way for most people to develop clairvoyance was to let the imagination play in the first place.” “A striking conversation took place in my presence on this point. One of our prominent members had been through an important ceremony on the astral plane during t he sleep of his physical body, and had thereby become what was called ‘an Initiate’. It happened that he was to be called as a witness in a certain case. He was full of anxiety about it. ‘Whatever shall I say if they ask me about my being an Initiate? I do not remember anything at all of it’.” “Mr. Leadbeater’s reply was: ‘But why don’t you remember? You ought to be able to remember’.” “ ‘Well, if I let my imagination play on it, I can get a sort of impression about it’.” “ ‘That is just what you ought to do. There is a cause for such imaginings. How can you expect your clairvoyant power to develop if you destroy its delicate beginnings?’ ” “The member followed this advice and became one of the prominent clairvoyants in the Theosophical Society (...)” (1) So far, Mr. Ernest Wood, ex-private Secretary to Leadbeater and International of the Theosophical Society, Adyar. Thus was Mr. Leadbeater’s “clairvoyance”. There was no objective observation involved. It was pure, conscious imagination, and that is tantamount to fraud. It was by this imaginary mechnisms that he “talked to Lord Christ”, personally visited Mars and Mercury and knew the “past lives” of everyone around him. He controled the Adyar theosophical movement with the careful distribution of information relating to discipleship status and to false Initiations to this and that person. To consolidate his popish power, he created a ritualistic structure whose source was also his feverish but unhealthy imagination. Since the 1950s, Adyar leaders ceased to renew those fancies. Yet they did not have the courage to face truth and to be more strongly loyal to the slogan of their organization: “There is no religion higher than truth”. They do not defend Leadbeater in a direct way, yet they try to avoid as much as possible clarification about these matters of decisive importance. Thus, consciously or unconsciously, they try to keep Adyar members from rediscovering the real teaching given humanity by the Masters through H.P.B. Yet there is always hope. Things are lost -- and found again in the right time. Illusions are created -- and then they dissolve after their energy has ended. Everything is cyclical. People do change – and they often change for the better. Having people from different groups and institutions here at Theos-talk enables us to go beyond the logic of narrow corporate interests and goals. Thus truth can emerge through an open debate. Best regards, Carlos. O o o O o o O o o O o o O o o O o o O NOTE: (1) “Is This Theosophy?”, by Ernesdt Egerton Wood, London: Rider& Co., Paternoster House, E.C., 1936, 318 pp., facsimile edition by Kessinger Publishing, LLC, Kila, MT, USA. See p. 141. O o o O o o O o o O o o O o o O o o O _________________________________________________________________ Ligações gratuitas de PC-para-PC para qualquer lugar do Brasil e do mundo com o MSN Messenger. Saiba mais em http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/default2.aspx?locale=pt-br From carlosaveline@hotmail.com Wed Mar 01 07:42:31 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94787 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 15:42:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.33) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 15:42:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.224.37) by mta7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 15:42:17 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 07:40:54 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.224.200 by by105fd.bay105.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:40:49 GMT X-Originating-Email: [carlosaveline@hotmail.com] X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 11:40:49 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2006 15:40:54.0753 (UTC) FILETIME=[86F02D10:01C63D46] X-Originating-IP: 65.54.224.37 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" Subject: HPB and W.C. Leadbeater X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=214871911 Konstantin, You may have heard that HPB was sometimes ironical. She may have been especially so with those crazy mediums inventing false contacts with her Masters, as she commented in "The Key to Theosophy". Carlos. >From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Theos-World on "W.C. Leadbeater" >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:26:19 -0000 > >I've looked on the facsimile reproduction and found that Blavatsky >really wrote "W.C. Leadbeater" but the context shows that there >was nothing scornful about it, probably it was just mistake. This >inscription was made not earlier than in 1889. > >To my sincerely appreciated & beloved Brother & friend >W.C. Leadbeater. >H.P.Blavatsky > >Most probably the inscription is genuine, otherwise such mistake >was scarcely possible. > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Inscreva-se no programa beta do novo Windows Live Mail e seja um dos primeiros a testar as novidades. Saiba mais: http://www.ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d From carlosaveline@hotmail.com Wed Mar 01 08:02:12 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69129 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 16:02:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.34) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 16:02:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.224.31) by mta8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 16:02:11 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 08:01:49 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.224.200 by by105fd.bay105.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 16:01:44 GMT X-Originating-Email: [carlosaveline@hotmail.com] X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 12:01:44 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2006 16:01:49.0027 (UTC) FILETIME=[728B3330:01C63D49] X-Originating-IP: 65.54.224.31 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" Subject: A Clairvoyant at Theos-talk? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=214871911 Dave, As a clairvoyant of past lives, you remind me of Leadbeater's clairvoyance. In a way, it is funny, like his travels to Mars and Mercury. Yet, your style seems to be also similar to that of Daniel Caldwell. I just don't know why it is so similar, if you are not himself! Best regards, Carlos. >From: "soulsurvivor7771" >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Theos-World Re: Jokes and Diversity >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:13:08 -0000 > >Carlos, > >Lets face it - you are a fundamentalist. You have found your Gods >and you can't stand anybody referring to them in a casual way (ie >with deference, if not reverence). You want to root out the 'Heresy' >in your 'Church' where you see that it has gained some ground. > >The reason you tolerate Paul Johnson is because few theosophists >believe him (No offence, Paul) and he does treat them with >deference. > >You don't think Truth is your private property, since it already >belongs to your Church. In one of your previous incarnations, you >were possibly an Inquisitor (well meaning, of course) making sure >the members did not stray too far from the path. However, your >orthodoxy seems a little more Islamic than Western, you are quite >ready to throw stones at the Devil's idolatory. > >There is nothing wrong with jokes about the Masters when the intent >is not to ridicule or show disrespect (I don't think this joke does >that, though it may be a bit out of place in this forum). However, >when you talk about other people's beliefs in your daily diatribes, >that is precisely your intent. > >Regards, > >Dave >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" > wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > No. > > > > I democratically accept Paul Johnson's false "revelation" of the >Masters > > as a right of his, and I laugh, if not with the Masters, at least >I laugh > > with you. > > > > I tried to buy Truth and label it as my private property only but >did not > > succeed yet. > > > > I will let you know when I buy it. > > > > You have my respect. We can agree to disagree. > > > > > > Best regards, Carlos. > > > > > > > > >From: Bill Meredith > > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Jokes and Jokes > > >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:36:50 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > >Make whatever jokes please you. If they are funny, I will laugh. > > > > > >What I find interesting is that when someone does something you >don't > > >like, your knee-jerk response is to do or threaten to do the very >same > > >thing back to them. Meditate on that, my friend. > > > > > >laughing with the Masters, > > > > > > > > >bill > > > > > >carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote: > > > > Dear Bill, > > > > > > > > That's the problem with Paul Johnson"s view about the Masters. > > > > > > > > But the Adepts themselves commented this lack of respect in >their > > >Letters. > > > > > > > > This is not the end of the world. > > > > > > > > Please tell me what you consider sacred so that I can make >jokes with > > >it, > > > > too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, Carlos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: Bill Meredith > > > >> Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > >> Subject: Re: Theos-World Jokes and Jokes > > > >> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:13:53 -0500 > > > >> > > > >> One might read the Master's letters and wonder if they were >ever young > > > >> men such those portrayed below. > > > >> > > > >> ------ > > > >> > > > >> Sophia had two young Masters who were excessively >mischievous. They > > > >> were always getting into trouble and Sophia knew that, if any >mischief > > > >> occurred in the Theosophical Society, K.H. and Morya were >probably > > > >> involved. > > > >> > > > >> Sophia heard that a local priest of the LCC had been >successful in > > > >> disciplining masters, so she asked if he would speak with her >boys. > > >The > > > >> Bishop Leadbeater agreed, but asked to see them >individually. Sophia > > > >> sent Morya in first, with K.H. scheduled to see the clergyman >in the > > > >> afternoon. > > > >> > > > >> The Bishop, a huge man with a booming voice, sat the young >Morya down > > > >> and asked him sternly, "Where is God?" > > > >> > > > >> Morya's mouth dropped open, but he made no response, sitting >there with > > > >> his mouth hanging open, wide-eyed. So the clergyman repeated >the > > > >> question in an even sterner tone, "Where is God!!?" Again >the young > > > >> Morya made no attempt to answer. So the clergyman raised his >voice > > >even > > > >> more and shook his finger in the young Master's face and >bellowed, > > > >> "WHERE IS GOD!?" > > > >> > > > >> Morya screamed and bolted from the room, ran directly home >and dove > > >into > > > >> his closet, slamming the door behind him. When his brother >Koot Hoomi > > > >> found him in the closet, he asked, "What happened?" > > > >> > > > >> The young Morya, still gasping for breath, replied, "Brother, >we are in > > > >> BIG trouble this time. God is missing - and they think WE >did it!" > > > >> > > > >> ---------- > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> peace and a sense of humor, > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> bill > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Dear Sufilight, > > > >>> > > > >>> If you make jokes with the names of the Masters, > > > >>> I might make jokes with the Prophet, > > > >>> yet I somewaht prefer keeping jokes away > > > >>> from Masters names and from the Prophet's name. > > > >>> > > > >>> Deal? > > > >>> > > > >>> Carlos. > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>>> From: "M. Sufilight" > > > >>>> Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > >>>> To: > > > >>>> Subject: Re: Theos-World Better watch out who you pick on >here, buddy > > > >>>> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:53:47 +0100 > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Yeah... > > > >>>> I have just lend Master Morya's de- and re-materialising-kit > > > >>>> a our local spiritual library. They said, I could keep it >for this > > > >>>> incarnation. > > > >>>> :-) > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> from > > > >>>> M. Sufilight on his flying carpet... > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >>>> From: > > > >>>> To: > > > >>>> Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 7:33 AM > > > >>>> Subject: Re: Theos-World Better watch out who you pick on >here, buddy > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> In a message dated 2/27/2006 12:02:29 AM Central Standard >Time, > > > >>>>> leonmaurer@... writes: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> It's no joke. Last Thursday, President Bush signed into >law a > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> prohibition > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> on > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> posting annoying web messages or sending annoying email >messages > > > >>>>> > > > >> without > > > >> > > > >>>>> disclosing your true identity > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> It should last five minutes in court. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Chuck the Heretic > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> >_________________________________________________________________ > > > >>> Copa 2006: Juiz @#$%*&!? e mais frases para seu MSN Messenger > > > >>> http://copa.br.msn.com/extra/frases/ > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > > > > Ligações gratuitas de PC-para-PC para qualquer lugar do Brasil >e do > > >mundo > > > > com o MSN Messenger. Saiba mais em > > > > http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/default2.aspx?locale=pt-br > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Ganhe tempo encontrando o arquivo ou e-mail que você precisa com >Windows > > Desktop Search. Instale agora em http://desktop.msn.com.br > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Inscreva-se no programa beta do novo Windows Live Mail e seja um dos primeiros a testar as novidades. Saiba mais: http://www.ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d From carlosaveline@hotmail.com Wed Mar 01 08:38:50 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89490 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 16:38:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.67.35) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 16:38:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.224.38) by mta9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 16:38:49 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 08:38:05 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.224.200 by by105fd.bay105.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 16:38:03 GMT X-Originating-Email: [carlosaveline@hotmail.com] X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <003201c63ab1$f68aed00$747a3456@khidr6094418a5> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 12:38:03 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2006 16:38:05.0869 (UTC) FILETIME=[840AEDD0:01C63D4E] X-Originating-IP: 65.54.224.38 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" Subject: The Mahatmas and a "Liberal" Church X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=214871911 Dear Sufilight, Thanks. Perhaps Pedro Oliveira or some other Liberal Catholic priest could comment this paragraph you quote from the "Mahatma Letters" ?... "I will point out the greatest, the chief cause of nearly two-thirds of the evils that pursue humanity ever since it became a power. It is the sacerdotal cast the priesthood and the churches. It is those illusions that man looks upon as sacred that he has to search out the source of the multitude of evils which is the great curse of humanity and that almost overwhelms mankind. Ignorance created Gods, and cunning took advantage of the opportunity." (Letter 10 in the Non-chronological editions) Best regards, Carlos. >From: "M. Sufilight" >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: Theos-World Begging money for the "Coming" >Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:52:24 +0100 > >Hallo, > > >My views are: > >John, I guess this is the place... >http://www.timestar.org/e-mail.htm > >I did like these words: > There is one thought which specially brings a doubt to my mind, >especially when I have long since come to realize the truth contained in >the >following quotation from one of the Mahatma letters:-- > >"I will point out the greatest, the chief cause of nearly two-thirds of the >evils that pursue humanity ever since it became a power. It is the >sacerdotal cast the priesthood and the churches. It is those illusions >that >man looks upon as sacred that he has to search out the source of the >multitude of evils which is the great curse of humanity and that almost >overwhelms mankind. Ignorance created Gods, and cunning took advantage of >the opportunity." > > It is incomprehensible to me how Dr. Bezants pronouncement that the >power >of the World Teacher manifests in the L. C. C. with the Herald of the Star >filled with pictures of Priests and clergy, it is incomprehensible how one >can harmonize the two thoughts, especially in view of the fact that H. P. >B's and hundreds of quotations from letters of the masters and also the >early writings of Mr. Leadbeter condemned the vary teachings of the >Christian church as false and misleading, which now are apparently found to >be true. > > Having studied the writings of Dr. Besant, Leadbeter, H. P. B. and The >Mahatmas and Sinnett, I must admit that I am completely unable to make the >same harmonize with the more recent teachings of our leaders, especially in >view of their references to the L. C. C. and the apparent building or >hoping >to build in the world sacerdotal organization or organizations that have >within themselves the seed for greater misery and power than is possible at >the present time under Christian Theology. > > > >from >M. Sufilight with a smile... > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 8:53 AM >Subject: Re: Theos-World Begging money for the "Coming" > > > > Was this posted by David Green? Lol. Might someone tell me who or what > > "Timestar" is? > > > > John > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Seja um dos primeiros a testar o novo Windows Live Mail Beta.Acesse http://www.ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d From carlosaveline@hotmail.com Wed Mar 01 08:46:57 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51640 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 16:46:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 16:46:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.224.23) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 16:46:56 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Mar 2006 08:46:12 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.224.200 by by105fd.bay105.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 01 Mar 2006 16:46:09 GMT X-Originating-Email: [carlosaveline@hotmail.com] X-Sender: carlosaveline@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 12:46:09 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2006 16:46:12.0834 (UTC) FILETIME=[A64BE420:01C63D4F] X-Originating-IP: 65.54.224.23 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" Subject: Impersonal Suspicions on Daniel X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=214871911 Leonardo, I only now see your posting below. I have the time to tell you one thing. Suspicions about Daniel are not personal. They have been circulating for some years among experienced theosophists and none of them, as long as I know, doubted the theory according to which Daniel has been inventing false persons for his own reasons and motives, especially to help himself attack some theosophical blanks. Now he has the opportunity to answer to such a general evaluation about him. Regards, Carlos. >From: leonmaurer@aol.com >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Daniel Committ Fraud? >Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 20:27:13 EST > > >In a message dated 2/25/06 10:27:48 AM, carlosaveline@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > > > Yes, I am getting really curious about all of this. > > > > A lawsuit against Paul?  It might be most unlikely. > > > > Why not such a sub-threat as a way to try to bully people >psychologically? > > > > You can bully some people all the time, you can bully all people for > > some time, but you cannot bully all people all the time. > > > > And I am still waiting for Danniel's clarifications. Maybe he is > > innocent? > > > > Really curious as Ethics is of the essence for us. > > > > Best regards,  Carlos. > > > > >So you say... > >And, how ethical is your continued hounding of Caldwell through not so >subtle >accusative implications of his guilt by means of subtly sly reverse >innuendo's (not to mention your repetitive subject lines with his name >constantly being >impugned) whenever you see an opportunity? He may be innocent as you say, >and undeserving of such treatment... But in such a case, you certainly >would >not be in the eyes of any perceptive theosophist on this list. > >What you are doing by such widespread and repetitive public disclosure of a >personal suspicion so as to influence the thoughts of others -- you call >"friends" (but whom are not necessarily so) -- appears to this observer to >be highly >unethical, from both a legal and a theosophical point of view. > >In addition, passing the libel and slander buck back to Paul, as well as >adding further implications that Caldwell is a bully as well as a fraud, >doesn't >appear to be so ethical either... Especially, when you are safe behind a >foreign border. > >In addition, your flooding of this list with your repetitive side issues, >has >almost completely shoved the discussion of theosophy into the mud and >covered >it over with slime in the form of gossip -- that would, in my view, make >HPB >disown you as her chela (if you ever were or could be one:) > >So far, all you seem to be doing is dominating this theosophical forum and >spreading tension, apprehension, and dissension among its members. (Not >to >mention wasting my time reading and responding to your overly repetitive >and >boring letters whenever they go beyond the boundaries of theosophically >useful or >interesting information.) Stating your opinions about long dead teachers >or >members of this forum once -- is enough. > >Leonardo > > > > > >From: Bill Meredith > > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Daniel Create False Persons? > > >Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:06:12 -0500 > > > > > >LOL John,  I think your last sentence might also accurately convey the > > >inquiring attitude of those who have raised the question of whether > > >Daniel and David are one and the same.  "I don't really know if that is > > >what Daniel is doing but I wouldn't be a bit surprised, lol." > > > > > >  I googled for some information on the formal court case  you >reference > > >below and came up empty handed.  Still googling is a learned skill > > >which I have not mastered, so maybe you could send me the reference, so > > >I could "compare and contrast" the various points of view in the > > >specific case to which you are referring. > > >peace, > > > > > > > > >bill > > > > > > > > > > > >samblo@cs.com wrote: > > > > bill, > > > >   I don't necessarily see Daniel's absence as unusual under the > > circumstance > > > > of the organized, preconceived, pre-agreed poison pen attack. I >rather > > think > > > > he is probably having to spend considerable time with his legal >consul > > putting > > > > together a well prepared brief for a court case. I recall that >within > > the last > > > > 90 days there was a formal court case here in the USA by a member of > > another > > > > Yahoo Group who was subjected to defamation, slander, and libel, >that > > person > > > > took the parties to court and the court for the first time ruled in > > favor of > > > > the plaintiff and set precedence in the award of damages to the >yahoo > > > > Group Member. I don't really know if that is what Daniel is doing >but I > > > > wouldn't be a bit surprised, lol. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Facilite sua vida: Use o Windows Desktop Search e encontre qualquer arquivo ou e-mail em seu PC. Acesse: http://desktop.msn.com.br From pathinfo@comcast.net Wed Mar 01 09:06:07 2006 Return-Path: X-Sender: pathinfo@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35514 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2006 17:06:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2006 17:06:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1a.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.203.221) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2006 17:06:07 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.64] by n1.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2006 17:05:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by t1.bullet.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2006 17:05:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.83] by t3.bullet.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2006 17:05:48 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 17:05:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 216.155.203.221 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 24.6.187.167 From: "soulsurvivor7771" Subject: Re: A Clairvoyant at Theos-talk? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=257723444; y=DClX08SDKT5UAKJLruBSPMzv3pCu5dt0KGJJIlP2OwZL X-Yahoo-Profile: soulsurvivor7771 Carlos, I can assure you I am not Daniel Caldwell. He is far more learned=20 than I, and so I am sure, are you. The problem is that you are a Fundamentalist. You have found your=20 Gods, you have chosen your Prophet, you have studied the Holy Book,=20 you have decided on the acceptable methods of worship, practice and=20 teaching of your 'religion'. Now you are determined to root out the=20 evil of heresy in your church. There is much to criticize in Leadbeater's works (a lot of it is=20 useless stuff like the Lives, description of the Masters' appearance=20 etc, even if some of it may be accurate). However, I find much of his=20 other material quite useful. If you need to criticize him, you can do=20 that by discussing those books of his which are popular (there are=20 many). But do this once and for all and then move on to something=20 else (or write a book if you have enough material). But what you do=20 are these daily postings using ridicule (on Mars), false accusations=20 (Leadbeater fancied himself a 4th degree initiate), childish=20 allusions (the WC thing), half-truths (Leadbeater got most his=20 information using mediumship) etc. To use an expression I am sure Daniel would never use - gimme a break! Regards, Dave PS. Actually, I don't have any ability for clairvoyance, but you may=20 want to check about your past lives with some of the mediums you seem=20 to know. It may be quite therapeutic. =20 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline"=20 wrote: > >=20 > Dave, >=20 > As a clairvoyant of past lives, you remind me of Leadbeater's=20 clairvoyance. >=20 > In a way, it is funny, like his travels to Mars and Mercury. >=20 > Yet, your style seems to be also similar to that of Daniel=20 Caldwell. I just >=20 > don't know why it is so similar, if you are not himself! >=20 > Best regards, Carlos. >=20 >=20 >=20 > >From: "soulsurvivor7771" > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Theos-World Re: Jokes and Diversity > >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 17:13:08 -0000 > > > >Carlos, > > > >Lets face it - you are a fundamentalist. You have found your Gods > >and you can't stand anybody referring to them in a casual way (ie > >with deference, if not reverence). You want to root out=20 the 'Heresy' > >in your 'Church' where you see that it has gained some ground. > > > >The reason you tolerate Paul Johnson is because few theosophists > >believe him (No offence, Paul) and he does treat them with > >deference. > > > >You don't think Truth is your private property, since it already > >belongs to your Church. In one of your previous incarnations, you > >were possibly an Inquisitor (well meaning, of course) making sure > >the members did not stray too far from the path. However, your > >orthodoxy seems a little more Islamic than Western, you are quite > >ready to throw stones at the Devil's idolatory. > > > >There is nothing wrong with jokes about the Masters when the intent > >is not to ridicule or show disrespect (I don't think this joke does > >that, though it may be a bit out of place in this forum). However, > >when you talk about other people's beliefs in your daily diatribes, > >that is precisely your intent. > > > >Regards, > > > >Dave > >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline cardoso aveline" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > No. > > > > > > I democratically accept Paul Johnson's false "revelation" of the > >Masters > > > as a right of his, and I laugh, if not with the Masters, at=20 least > >I laugh > > > with you. > > > > > > I tried to buy Truth and label it as my private property only=20=20 but > >did not > > > succeed yet. > > > > > > I will let you know when I buy it. > > > > > > You have my respect. We can agree to disagree. > > > > > > > > > Best regards, Carlos. > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Bill Meredith > > > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > >Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Jokes and Jokes > > > >Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:36:50 -0500 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Make whatever jokes please you. If they are funny, I will=20 laugh. > > > > > > > >What I find interesting is that when someone does something you > >don't > > > >like, your knee-jerk response is to do or threaten to do the=20 very > >same > > > >thing back to them. Meditate on that, my friend. > > > > > > > >laughing with the Masters, > > > > > > > > > > > >bill > > > > > > > >carlosaveline cardoso aveline wrote: > > > > > Dear Bill, > > > > > > > > > > That's the problem with Paul Johnson"s view about the=20 Masters. > > > > > > > > > > But the Adepts themselves commented this lack of respect in > >their > > > >Letters. > > > > > > > > > > This is not the end of the world. > > > > > > > > > > Please tell me what you consider sacred so that I can make > >jokes with > > > >it, > > > > > too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, Carlos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: Bill Meredith > > > > >> Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > > >> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > > >> Subject: Re: Theos-World Jokes and Jokes > > > > >> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:13:53 -0500 > > > > >> > > > > >> One might read the Master's letters and wonder if they were > >ever young > > > > >> men such those portrayed below. > > > > >> > > > > >> ------ > > > > >> > > > > >> Sophia had two young Masters who were excessively > >mischievous. They > > > > >> were always getting into trouble and Sophia knew that, if=20 any > >mischief > > > > >> occurred in the Theosophical Society, K.H. and Morya were > >probably > > > > >> involved. > > > > >> > > > > >> Sophia heard that a local priest of the LCC had been > >successful in > > > > >> disciplining masters, so she asked if he would speak with=20 her > >boys. > > > >The > > > > >> Bishop Leadbeater agreed, but asked to see them > >individually. Sophia > > > > >> sent Morya in first, with K.H. scheduled to see the=20 clergyman > >in the > > > > >> afternoon. > > > > >> > > > > >> The Bishop, a huge man with a booming voice, sat the young > >Morya down > > > > >> and asked him sternly, "Where is God?" > > > > >> > > > > >> Morya's mouth dropped open, but he made no response,=20 sitting > >there with > > > > >> his mouth hanging open, wide-eyed. So the clergyman=20 repeated > >the > > > > >> question in an even sterner tone, "Where is God!!?" Again > >the young > > > > >> Morya made no attempt to answer. So the clergyman raised=20 his > >voice > > > >even > > > > >> more and shook his finger in the young Master's face and > >bellowed, > > > > >> "WHERE IS GOD!?" > > > > >> > > > > >> Morya screamed and bolted from the room, ran directly home > >and dove > > >