From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Thu Sep 01 03:10:32 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65013 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2005 10:10:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2005 10:10:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2005 10:10:32 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2005 10:09:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.72] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2005 10:09:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 10:09:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2057 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.44 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 59.167.14.203 From: "prmoliveira" Subject: The Tree of Sorrow X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617; y=sTzQi6rcSa9FUjBWhubHCIcqtUm11Xr13PtHC9WE_9bEBmmKYbc X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira The community of Beslan, south Russia, decided to commemorate the first anniversary of the siege to School No. 1, in which more than 300 children and some adults were killed, by erecting a memorial in the form of a tree - "The Tree of Sorrow" - which has wooden statues of children as its branches. The grief in that community, one year on, is still all-pervading, deep and almost unexplainable. The devastation produced by hurricane Katrina in the Gulf area of the US is also almost beyond comprehension. There are estimates of more than a 1,000 deaths in New Orleans alone, with several hundreds of thousands homeless. The suffering is compounded by dead bodies in the water and the difficulties in rescuing all those still trapped in their own buildings. There were scenes of grief and despair on television news programmes showing survivors who lost not only their homes but more importantly their loved ones. In Iraq, an stampede in Baghdad caused the death of more than a 1,000 people, apparently triggered by panic created by a potential terrorist attack. Unlike Russia and the US, suffering and tragedy come on a daily basis in Iraq. In the period of a few days the world has been engulfed in deep sorrow, inexplicable suffering and despair. How do we respond to suffering? Are we content in explain it away philosophically or religiously and therefore alow ourselves to become numbed, desensitized to what is happening to our fellow-human beings? If the tradition is to be believed, it only took one look at a wayside beggar to create in the young Siddartha Gautama an unconquerable resolve to find the cause of suffering. If another tradition is to be believed, there was a similar response on the part of a man called Jesus whenever he encountered suffering. Their responses, if those traditions are to be believed, came from a depth in themselves which lied far beyond anything the mind can touch. Can Theosophy help us to respond unreservedly to suffering? If not, can it really be Theosophy? pedro From eletzerich@yahoo.com Thu Sep 01 04:00:37 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32786 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2005 11:00:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2005 11:00:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web54101.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.37.236) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2005 11:00:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 33801 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Sep 2005 11:00:22 -0000 Message-ID: <20050901110022.33797.qmail@web54101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [83.171.216.254] by web54101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 04:00:22 PDT Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 04:00:22 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 206.190.37.236 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Erica Letzerich Subject: Re: Theos-World The Tree of Sorrow X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419; y=KwqdTi7xue2EPAKH_Hdczm3m0uQ94lvGUx9HeRbzJlaEdj5w1A X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you permit me to add. In France the wave of racism is growing and colour people are the last two weeks victms of constant attacks. Racists are putting fire in the houses and buildings, and such attacks are happening constantly the last two weeks. Day before yesterday six more colour people died burned, during their sleep and many more were injured. People went to the streets protesting. The question you raised is of fundamental importance, and I ask myself many times, how theosophy could bring a relief to all these injustices and trajedies going on. We can't forget that early theosophists were also great activists. Olcott left as a great sample in the work he developed in Sri Lanka. Besant left us also another great sample as an activist in India. Blavatsky open the doors for a deeper understanding of the ancient traditions and their unity. The Mahachohan in his letter mentions the great need for Universal Brotherhood be taking in action and the popularization of theosophy. I would put the question in another way. Can theosophy have a stronger impact in the world? What I have witnessed in the theosophical circles, and forgive me if I am wrong, because I might be. It is an alienation from the present world situation. Would be this one of the reasons why there are but little fellows connected to theosophical organizations? Maybe are we missing the great flame of love, compassion and Universal Brotherhood which must be expressed and reflected in every work? Can this compassion, love, brotherhood be blind to the present reality of the world today? Of course not, for if it is, it will be something else but not theosophy. Best, Erica prmoliveira wrote: The community of Beslan, south Russia, decided to commemorate the first anniversary of the siege to School No. 1, in which more than 300 children and some adults were killed, by erecting a memorial in the form of a tree - "The Tree of Sorrow" - which has wooden statues of children as its branches. The grief in that community, one year on, is still all-pervading, deep and almost unexplainable. The devastation produced by hurricane Katrina in the Gulf area of the US is also almost beyond comprehension. There are estimates of more than a 1,000 deaths in New Orleans alone, with several hundreds of thousands homeless. The suffering is compounded by dead bodies in the water and the difficulties in rescuing all those still trapped in their own buildings. There were scenes of grief and despair on television news programmes showing survivors who lost not only their homes but more importantly their loved ones. In Iraq, an stampede in Baghdad caused the death of more than a 1,000 people, apparently triggered by panic created by a potential terrorist attack. Unlike Russia and the US, suffering and tragedy come on a daily basis in Iraq. In the period of a few days the world has been engulfed in deep sorrow, inexplicable suffering and despair. How do we respond to suffering? Are we content in explain it away philosophically or religiously and therefore alow ourselves to become numbed, desensitized to what is happening to our fellow-human beings? If the tradition is to be believed, it only took one look at a wayside beggar to create in the young Siddartha Gautama an unconquerable resolve to find the cause of suffering. If another tradition is to be believed, there was a similar response on the part of a man called Jesus whenever he encountered suffering. Their responses, if those traditions are to be believed, came from a depth in themselves which lied far beyond anything the mind can touch. Can Theosophy help us to respond unreservedly to suffering? If not, can it really be Theosophy? pedro Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Sep 01 06:04:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20945 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2005 13:03:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2005 13:03:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2005 13:03:57 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.19] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EAoiy-0007Wy-Rt; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:03:36 -0400 To: "Jerry Ekins" Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 06:03:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c5aef5$88eed060$13d8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <4316159E.5010804@charter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79c25e6edd8c4636cb550488e05306d452350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.67 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: PART I -- Jerry HE: Does GdP actually teach this view given by Frank? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=zJVb_OGBnbXuygFJNhNXyQ07ZIWhkZNvjAotgypQD4Toeg X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 9/1/2005 4:24 AM Thanks Jerry Notes below as usual Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:40 PM To:=20 Subject: Re: PART I -- Jerry HE: Does GdP actually teach this=20 Dear Dallas, DTB I agree, not relevant. Books contain ideas, and it is to those I refer. SECRET DOCTRINE displays them, I don't need interpretations -- I prefer to go directly to any SOURCE.=20=20 JHE Yes, the book, The Secret Doctrine is a printed text, which was intended=20 to convey certain ideas. People read this book and get different meanings out of it.=20 JHE Believe me Dallas, I am not talking down to you.=20 ---------------------------------------- DTB I know that, you don=92t --- but sometimes GdeP does, when he starts at the outset telling his audience that they will not understand.......=94 If we all have the same supernal Principles (as in the Monad: ATMA =96 BUDD= HI) then why say anything like that?=20 ------------------------------- DTB So why bother about "traditions?" What is gained thereby? =20=20 JHE Because "traditions" are part of the normal structure of our lives=20 through which people generally orient themselves to their reality. The=20 gain comes from learning to recognize which beliefs are a product of=20 tradition and which come through direct realization.=20 ----------------------- DTB Yes =96 a problem since at that point the individual gives up his right and power of independent thinking. He no longer knows if a thing sai= d is either logical, illogical or right or wrong. But as for any results, he still has to bear the responsibility -- as he did the ostrich bit: =93bury= ing its head in the sand=94 of IGNORANCE and UNCERTAINTY.=20 ------------------------------------------ DTB And why chain ones expressions to some "norm ?" Who benefits?=20 JHE That is the whole point--to unchain one's expressions from some norm.=20 ----------------------------------------------- DTB That can only be done by severe care and constant attention, not the reverse. There is danger in any =93reliance on others,=94 unless the sourc= e has been repeatedly proven to be impartial, universally true and accurate, and asks the listener or reader to check and verify. And, usually provides adequate references.=20 That is what THEOSOPHY does all the time, and by THEOSOPHY, I mean the originals not the add-ons. DTB NO =96 WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTINUALLY TEST AND VERIFY IT. -------------------------------------------- JHE I realize that this is the standard essentialist approach.=20=09 ---------------------- DTB REALLY ? I would say it is accepting authority and therefore it is dangerous. ---------------------------------- JHE This approach does not work for this generation, so we do not use it.=20=20 JHE Here is how we use the SD: We hold day long SD seminars on a quarterly basis.=20=20 In this format, there are no experts lecturing on what the SD says; we do not sit around and read the text to each other; nor do we as students tell each other=20 what we think the text said.=20=20 Rather, students are given sections which they study and research on their own. We then meet, and the students share their discoveries--which always goes way beyond the text.=20=20 The difference between this method and those I have seen used in various=20 Theosophical traditions is that the students in our group express the=20 ideas they discovered in the SD in their own words.=20=20 They do not memorize passages in the text, nor do they adopt a jargon.=20=20 None of them have memorized the three fundamental propositions, but they ca= n all explain, each in their own unique way, what those three fundamental=20 propositions are, and how they relate to the rest of the book.=20=20 For our approach, It is not about accuracy or inaccuracy of the text, nor about=20 accurately quoting the text. It is about the new realizations the students come to by engaging the text and exploring the subject matter on their own. The point of these seminars is embodied the process of understanding, not i= n the learning of information per se.=20=20 One can hear the difference in the way these people talk about Theosophy. = =20 They do not memorize and utter phrases.=20=20 They do not use technical terminology.=20=20 They know the terms, but they also know how to talk about Theosophy to=20 those who never heard of Theosophy.=20 -------------------------------------- DTB Excellent method =96 now how is this correlated? How do they augment each-other? How can they verify what they have read and thought about? Have they as individuals an as a group been actively building a consensus? Is this recorded for future referral? May I send you a sample of a method used here at one of our study classes? ---------------------------------- JHE I don't normally use any buzz words, neither the current ones nor the=20 "time tested ones." If I do, it is in full awareness, and usually=20 calculated to communicate a certain effect. I believe that the=20 important thing is not whether we use buzz words, old or new, but=20 that we are mindful of the fact that we are doing so. An example comes=20 to mind: At the beginning of the civil rights movement, in the early=20 60s, people of color --=20 ------------------------------- DTB [OF COLOR means what ? In India I was called familiarly by school friends: "pinky!" -- which was how my skin color appeared to them - I wa= s the "variant." ]=20=20 ---------------------------------------- used to come into the coffee houses with new slogans and banners. The new slogans were stunning--they communicated in a few words a long history of oppression and way to bring it to an end.=20=20 After a year or so, they still came in uttering the same slogans=20 and waving the same banners. But, by that time, they had become so used=20 to uttering them that they had already stopped thinking about what they=20 really met. They had put themselves in a box, and lost the ability to=20 see beyond it. They had to reinvent themselves. Then it was W. E. B.=20 Dubois. Later it became civil rights marches. Personal growth, as well=20 as social progress continues as long as we are able to see through and=20 step out of the forms that we create for ourselves.=20=20 ------------------------------------------- DTB I agree that when one merges into a group that no longer thinks individually much is lost, even though such groups and their components are of statistical, demographic significance. And thus, we reenter the labelin= g process and the humanity of the INDIVIDUAL is played down into a political plaything -- and deemed contemptible.=20 Now if one looks at each of those humans as an actually internally being an immortal, self-evolving and responsible Monad, the whole perspective change= s to the Theosophical one. I mean "motive" for individual decision now assume= s the importance owed to it. How does one really act to benefit mankind?=20 Our so-called demographic analysis, is seen to be at best, an ephemeral presentation of what is assumed to be a political tool, suitable to be manipulated by the clever, sly ones who do such dirty work.=20 As I see it, it is amoral at best, and a kind of black-magic action (conscious or unconscious) at worst.=20=20 I don't consider this the best aspect of life and living, do you?=20 I try to resist all such "pressures." I try to discover the root cause of any plea for use of my "vote," or "action (or those suggested and mandated by "society" managers and leaders) -- I know I will have to pay for it (I mean my silence or my decision to act) eventually.=20 -------------------------------------------- DTB I am a product of my own decisions and work. I say that the U L T method and attitude has been most helpful -- at least I am NOT burdened wit= h the need to excuse the poor judgment of those who have diverted theosophica= l study away from HPB and the Masters.=20=20 =20=20 JHE Are you aware that this is a stock answer from ULT tradition? ------------------------------------- DTB You may so demark it. I find it an expression of a position that cannot be assailed morally. It also assumes I am a responsible thinking individual and not anyone's asinine tool -- to be manipulated because I am careless in my duty of careful attention. ------------------------------------------- JHE Are you aware that this view of Theosophical history is the view of=20 ULT's historical account in "The Theosophical Movement, 1875-1950? My own view is that history (of any subject) is an open and unending=20 inquiry. Interestingly, the ancient Greeks also saw it as an open=20 inquiry.=20 ---------------------------------------- DTB for 60 years or better, I have forced myself to read and review the documents connected with our current THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT -- and the AFTERMATH article series in THEOSOPHY magazine.=20 If we are reviewing the same material, then why differences, and why be vague about them?=20 Are differences to remain " brushed under the mat" or to be exposed and discussed and settled?=20 It took almost 100 years for the definitive biography of H. P. B. by Sylvia Cranston to be published {Tarcher, New York }.=20=20 Now in regard to Mr. W. Q. Judge (and the infamous JUDGE CASE), Mr. Ernest Pelletier in Edmonton, president of the Edmonton THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, has published a large volume vindicating his position. Have you a copy? Thanks best wishes=20 Dal W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: >8/31/2005 3:56 AM > >Hi Jerry: Thanks for notes and answers. > >I respond below with some inserts; > >Dallas > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins >Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:34 AM >To:=20 >Subject: Re: PART I -- RE: Jerry HE: Does GdP actually teach this view given >by Frank? > > >Dear Dallas, > >DTB >Of course, if the teachings of THEOSOPHY in the S D are to you only one o= f >many traditions, then it may useless to continue and let us both be >satisfied that there are in the Universe adequate room for many approaches >to TRUTH. >=09 > >JHE >It appears that you are not tracking with me. Traditions are social=20 >constructions created by people acting in common interests over a period=20 >of time and handed down. Those social constructions include beliefs,=20 >opinions, customs, rites etc. The SD is not a tradition, but a book. = =20 >As a book, it plays a part in all of the Theosophical traditions that I=20 >know of.=20 > >---------------------------------------- > >DTB I agree, not relevant. Books contain ideas, and it is to those I >refer. SECRET DOCTRINE displays them, I don't need interpretations -- I >prefer to go directly to any source.=20=20 > >I intensely resent being "talked down to," as everyone's mind is derived >from the UNIVERSAL MIND, there are only students and seekers and no >"authorities." So why bother about "traditions?" What is gained thereby? >And why chain ones expressions to some "norm ?" Who benefits?=20 > >If one suspects or denies the accuracy op of the information given in the >SECRET DOCTRINE, because of personal likes or dislikes -- I don't believe >that alters the power or depth of the presentation.=20 > >On the other hand if we don't read what is there, we will remain ignorant of >certain facts that cold be of great importance.=20 > >--------------------------------------- > > >DTB >I do not like labeling or being labeled. It has the disadvantage of being >too cursory. It may be fair to a collection of personalities, but it is too >gross a net to include Individualities.=20 > > >JHW >Fair enough. But, you labeled yourself. You wrote: > >One gets lost in detail and as you suspect my "essentialist approach" is one >that strives to use the pure BUDDHI-MANAS and not the KAMA-MANAS.=20=20 > > >JHE >So, apparently you also see yourself as preferring an essentialist=20 >approach. While all approaches have their advantages and limitations, I=20 >find it interesting that people do find themselves favoring one or=20 >another. I think it is partly a generational thing. Recently two=20 >writers, Strauss and Howe came out with a book called generations. It=20 >is a fascinating study on this subject. It shows, for instance, the=20 >common characteristics of the neo-conservatives and the hippies of=20 >George Bush's generation.=20 > >------------------ > >DTB I do not feel influenced by the time, generation, or any of the >current buzz words or concepts -- I prefer to time tested ones. So I employ >those I find to any situation or problem. One less category to worry about. > > >I freely agree I prefer being a "generalist." I am not hampered by what >"neighbors" will say. As if that mattered ? Look at history. Whose >records stand out? The hoi polloi, or the Platos and the Pythagorases? >What makes the difference? > >--------------------- > > >DTB >Theosophical inter-communication will be of great importance, but every care >must be taken to keep it impersonal, non-partisan, non-proselytizing, whil= e >at the same time a dependable source of information on Theosophical histor= y >as well as philosophy.=20 > > >JHE >I would say that inter-communication is now and always has been of great=20 >importance. Personal or impersonal? I think that depends upon the=20 >circumstances. I agree that inter-communication is best when non=20 >partisan and non-proselytizing. However, to do that, one must be aware=20 >of when one is partisan and/or proselytizing.=20=20 > >To do that, each Theosophist must learn to step outside of the box, the >tradition, from which he/she came. It reminds me of the story of the >American that=20 >goes to France, and, finally in frustration, yells out, "Isn't there=20 >anyone here who can speak English!" It is only after we are exposed=20 >to, immerse ourselves in other traditions that we come to recognize that=20 >we are also a product of tradition. Sadly, there are some who never=20 >see it--even then.=20 > > >----------------------------------------------- > >DTB One starts by humbly learning French as a language. Pride gets one >nowhere. Everyone can teach us something. Conformity has its price ! > >---------------------- > > >DTB >It must be so conducted that it will never drift into any kind of a >controlling force. This can always be obviated and guarded against by >continual reiteration and application of the principle of union. "Mental >control" of any kind is contrary to the letter and the spirit of our >Declaration, and that, while Lodges and individuals may seek information, >advice and suggestion, they are not in any way bound in so doing. > > >JHE >This is interesting. You speak of the "spirit of our Declaration..." = =20 >It sounds here that you are part of the ULT tradition, which you have=20 >been active for the last 60 years. Yet, yesterday, you wrote: >] > >DTB There we go again: You assume I have adopted a "tradition." I say >I am independent, but use any "tradition," to the extent that it is fair, >free of bias, and true to reason and logic.=20=20 > > >JHE >Which is it? Do you see yourself as a product of ULT tradition or not?=20 > >----------------------------------------------- > >DTB I am a product of my own decisions and work. I say that the U L T >method and attitude has been most helpful -- at least I am NOT burdened with >the need to excuse the poor judgment of those who have diverted theosophical >study away from HPB and the Masters.=20=20 > >The History of modern THEOSOPHY is rather well documented and anyone can >makeup their own minds concerning the route followed by individual and >societies.=20 > >But I would say that time spent on the study of THEOSOPHY is better than >that spent on studying the "history"(through their writings) of those >individuals who have seemingly influenced many, and caused the splits and >rivalries we now witness in what ought to be a unity. Such a Unity >(originally outlined but Olcott and HPB (see "Key") can only be based on >principles impartially applied and rigidly adhered to.=20 > >I freely admit my connection with U L T as the freest and clearest of >the many "organisms" that employ the word "THEOSOPHY"=20 > >However, as is said therein (Declaration of U L T ) I reserve my own >individual decision-making power to myself -- as in fact everyone does, >whether they say that they "belong" to one "society" or another, or to none. > >------------------------------- > >DTB >We did not invent it. It was given to us; we stand in line and pass it >along, as people used to do at fires in passing the buckets of water.=20 > > >JHE >Yes, that is what is called a tradition. > > >DTB >People are grateful to the one who passes the "water of life" along to them, >but the "passer" knows where gratitude belongs, and says: "don't thank me; >thank Theosophy-as I do. It enables me to help others; it will also enable >you."=20 >=20=20 > >JHE >They indeed are happy. However, it is better that they learn to find=20 >their own "water of life." > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >DTB Agreed. More is gained thereby. > >thanks and enjoyed, > >Dal > >----------- > > >Best wishes, >Jerry > > >-------- CUT -------------- > > >Consider the following: > > >"It is futile to accept revelations on anybody=92s say-so. They convey no >knowledge, and it is actual knowledge that is required by each one. >Shibboleths and formulas are mere words, not a criterion of truth. > >Theosophy is in the world to present the means by which each one can acquire >knowledge for himself. Its study and application call forth the judgment and >discrimination latent in the man himself. > >Truth is not a man, nor a book, nor a statement. The nature of Truth is >universal; its possessors in any degree will be found to be appliers of >universality in thought, speech and action. Their efforts will be for >humanity regardless of sex, creed, caste or color. They will never be foun= d >among those claiming to be the chosen spokesman of the Deity=97and exactin= g >homage from their fellow-men: true Brotherhood includes the least develope= d >as well as the very highest. We must seek to give aid to all in search of >truth.=20 > >Our value and aid in this great work will be just what we make them by our >motive, our judgment, our conduct. > >The heart-felt desire that others may benefit from our lives will be felt by >those open=97it matters little how few; they may be the means of wakening many >others. It is the effort and the sacrifice that bring the ultimate results= , >but in our zeal it is well to consider what the Masters have done, and do >year after year, age after age.=20 > >They do what They can, when They can, and as They can=97in accordance with >cyclic law. They conserve the knowledge gained=97and wait. Knowing this, a= nd >doing thus, there can be no room in us for doubt or discouragement.=20 > >Theosophy is for those who want it. We are to hold, wait, and work for those >few earnest souls who will grasp the plan and further the Cause. Many have >their ears so dulled, or their attention so diverted, that no number of >repetitions can reach them=97yet Theosophy must be held out continually fo= r >all who will listen. That is our self-assumed work; we have our example in >H. P. B. and W. Q. J. to means, method and manner: let us imitate them, an= d >so do their work in their spirit. > >The Theosophical =93arch=94 has been thrown across the abyss of creeds and >materialism. Some have discovered where a base rests on one or the other >side; others have found =93stones=94 that belong to the arch, but the >=93key-stone=94 has been =93rejected=94 because of its irregular shape=97a= ll like the >story of old in Masonic tradition. But we are also reminded that the time >came when the rejected stone became =93the head of the corner=94 because i= t was >found to be the key-stone. All the time there were those who knew of the >key-stone, but they were very few and their voices were not heard amid the >clamor of the claims made by those who had found portions of the arch and >desired recognition. So the few had to =93Work, Watch=97and =91Wait,=94 kn= owing that >history repeats itself, and that there is nothing new under the sun. > >The allegory of the tower of Babel applies to the present times. Everythin= g >is in confusion, everyone talking his own gibberish=97and nobody listening= . I >said =93nobody=94=97but some are; a few realize that none of these things = bring >knowledge. All that can be done is to let the light so shine that all who >will may seek it, thus sowing for future harvest. It would be a hopeless >task were is not for Reincarnation; so the great effort should be to >promulgate the fundamental principles of Unity, of Brotherhood, of Karma and >Reincarnation. > > >[ Bab-El means: Gateway of the SUN The portal to WISDOM.=20 >It has an esoteric significance, indicating one of the ancient mystery >schools and its teachings -- "within" -- and the confusion -- "without."] > > >Also: > >"What was the religion of the Third and Fourth Races? In the common >acceptation of the term, neither the Lemurians, nor yet their progeny, the >Lemuro-Atlanteans, had any, as they knew no dogma, nor had they to believe >on faith.=20 > >No sooner had the mental eye of man been opened to understanding, than the >Third Race felt itself one with the ever-present as the ever to be unknown >and invisible ALL, the One Universal Deity. Endowed with divine powers, an= d >feeling in himself his inner God, each felt he was a Man-God in his nature= , >though an animal in his physical Self.=20 > >The struggle between the two began from the very day they tasted of the >fruit of the Tree of Wisdom; a struggle for life between the spiritual and >the psychic, the psychic and the physical. Those who conquered the lower >principles by obtaining mastery over the body, joined the "Sons of Light."= =20 > >Those who fell victims to their lower natures, became the slaves of Matter= . >>>From "Sons of Light and Wisdom" they ended by becoming the "Sons of >Darkness." They had fallen in the battle of mortal life with Life immortal= , >and all those so fallen became the seed of the future generations of >Atlanteans.*=20 > >At the dawn of his consciousness, the man of the Third Root Race had thus no >beliefs that could be called religion. That is to say, he was equally as >ignorant of "gay religions, full of pomp and gold" as of any system of faith >or outward worship. But if the term is to be defined as the binding together >of the masses in one form of reverence paid to those we feel higher than >ourselves, of piety =97 as a feeling expressed by a child toward a loved >parent =97 then even the earliest Lemurians had a religion =97 and a most >beautiful one =97 from the very beginning of their intellectual life. Had they >not their bright gods of the elements around=20 > > ------------------------------------- > >* The name is used here in the sense of, and as a synonym of "sorcerers." >The Atlantean races were many, and lasted in their evolution for millions of >years: all were not bad. They became so toward their end, as we (the fifth= ) >are fast becoming now.=20 >------------------------------------------------ > >them, and even within themselves? *=20 > >Was not their childhood passed with, nursed and tendered by those who had >given them life and called them forth to intelligent, conscious life? We are >assured it was so, and we believe it.=20 > >For the evolution of Spirit into matter could never have been achieved; no= r >would it have received its first impulse, had not the bright Spirits >sacrificed their own respective super-ethereal essences to animate the man >of clay, by endowing each of his inner principles with a portion, or rather, >a reflection of that essence.=20 > >The Dhyanis of the Seven Heavens (the seven planes of Being) are the >NOUMENOI of the actual and the future Elements, just as the Angels of the >Seven Powers of nature - the grosser effects of which are perceived by us in >what Science is pleased to call the "modes of motion" =97 the imponderable >forces and what not =97 are the still higher noumenoi of still higher >Hierarchies. [see S D I 570-5] > >It was the "Golden Age" in those days of old, the age when the "gods walke= d >the earth, and mixed freely with the mortals." Since then, the gods departed >(i.e., became invisible), and later generations ended by worshipping their >kingdoms =97 the Elements.=20 > >It was the Atlanteans, the first progeny of semi-divine man after his >separation into sexes =97 hence the first-begotten and humanly-born mortal= s =97 >who became the first "Sacrificers" to the god of matter.=20 > >They stand in the far-away dim past, in ages more than prehistoric, as the >prototype on which the great symbol of Cain was built, =86 as the first >anthropomorphists who worshipped form and matter. That worship degenerated >very soon into self-worship, thence led to phallicism, or that which reign= s >supreme to this day in the symbolisms of every exoteric religion of ritual= , >dogma, and form. Adam and Eve became matter, or furnished the soil, Cain and >Abel =97 the latter the life-bearing soil, the former "the tiller of that >ground or field."=20 > >Thus the first Atlantean races, born on the Lemurian Continent, separated >from their earliest tribes into the righteous and the unrighteous; into >those who worshipped the one unseen Spirit of Nature, the ray of which man >feels within himself =97 or the Pantheists, and those who offered fanatica= l >worship to the Spirits of the Earth, the dark Cosmic, anthropomorphic >Powers, with whom they made alliance. These were the earliest Gibborim, "the >mighty men of renown in those days" (Gen. vi.); who become with the Fifth >Race the Kabirim: Kabiri with the Egyptians and the Phoenicians, Titans with >the Greeks, and Rakshasas and Daityas with the Indian races.=20 > >Such was the secret and mysterious origin of all the subsequent and modern >religions, especially of the worship of the later Hebrews for their tribal >god. At the same time this sexual religion was closely allied to, based upon >and blended, so to say, with astronomical phenomena.=20 > >The Lemurians gravitated toward the North Pole, or the Heaven of their >Progenitors (the Hyperborean Continent); the Atlanteans, toward the Southern >Pole, the pit, cosmically and terrestrially =97 whence breathe the hot >passions blown into hurricanes by the cosmic Elementals, whose abode it is= . >The two poles were denominated, by the ancients, Dragons and Serpents =97 >hence good and bad Dragons and Serpents, and also the names given to the >"Sons of God" (Sons of Spirit and Matter): the good and bad Magicians. Thi= s >is the origin of this dual and triple nature in man.=20 > >The legend of the "Fallen Angels" in its esoteric signification, contains >the key to the manifold contradictions of human character; it points to th= e >secret of man's self-consciousness; it is the angle-iron on which hinges his >entire life-cycle; =97 the history of his evolution and growth.=20 > >On a firm grasp of this doctrine depends the correct understanding of >esoteric anthropogenesis. It gives a clue to the vexed question of the >Origin of Evil; and shows how man himself is the separator of the ONE into >various contrasted aspects.=20 > >The reader, therefore, will not be surprised if so considerable space is >devoted in each case to an attempt to elucidate this difficult and obscure >subject. A good deal must necessarily be said on its symbological aspect; >because, by so doing, hints are given to the thoughtful student for his ow= n >investigations, and more light can thus be suggested than it is possible t= o >convey in the technical phrases of a more formal, philosophical exposition= . >The "Fallen Angels," so-called, are Humanity itself. The Demon of Pride, >Lust, Rebellion, and Hatred, has never had any being before the appearance >of physical conscious man. It is man who has begotten, nurtured, and allowed >the fiend to develop in his heart; he, again, who has contaminated the >indwelling god in himself, by linking the pure spirit with the impure demo= n >of matter. And, if the Kabalistic saying, "Demon est Deus inversus" finds >its metaphysical and theoretical corroboration in dual manifested nature, >its practical application is found in Mankind alone.=20 > >Thus it has now become self-evident that postulating as we do (a) the >appearance of man before that of other mammalia, and even before the ages of >the huge reptiles; (b) periodical deluges and glacial periods owing to the >karmic disturbance of the axis; and chiefly (c) the birth of man from a >Superior Being, or what materialism would call a supernatural Being, thoug= h >it is only super-human =97 it is evident that our teachings have very few >chances of an impartial hearing.=20 > >Add to it the claim that a portion of the Mankind in the Third Race =97 al= l >those Monads of men who had reached the highest point of Merit and Karma i= n >the preceding Manvantara =97 owed their psychic and rational natures to divine >Beings hypostasizing into their fifth principles, and the Secret Doctrine >must lose caste in the eyes of not only Materialism but even of dogmatic >Christianity.=20 > >For, no sooner will the latter have learned that those angels are identica= l >with their "Fallen" Spirits, than the esoteric tenet will be proclaimed most >terribly heretical and pernicious.*=20 > >The divine man dwelt in the animal, and, therefore, when the physiological >separation took place in the natural course of evolution =97 when also "al= l >the animal creation was untied," and males were attracted to females =97 t= hat >race fell: not because they had eaten of the fruit of Knowledge and knew >good from evil, but because they knew no better. Propelled by the sexless >creative instinct, the early sub-races had evolved an intermediate race in >which, as hinted in the Stanzas, the higher Dhyan-Chohans had incarnated. = =86 > >"When we have ascertained the extent of the Universe and learnt to know al= l >that there is in it, we will multiply our race," answer the Sons of Will and >Yoga to their brethren of the same race, who invite them to do as they do. >This means that the great Adepts and Initiated ascetics will "multiply," >i.e., once more produce Mind-born immaculate Sons =97 in the Seventh >Root-Race. " S D II 272 - 8 > > > > > >=20 >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >=20 > > > >=20=20 > =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Sep 01 09:22:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41151 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2005 16:22:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2005 16:22:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2005 16:22:42 -0000 Received: from [151.198.12.12] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EArpp-0001PJ-Ji for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 12:22:41 -0400 Message-ID: <43172AD4.6000405@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 12:22:44 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <20050901035032.2197.qmail@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050901035032.2197.qmail@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba6135af692c7d7c4cfb784a69e7fd3ee3387f7b89c61deb1d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Cancer producing agents - Plastic X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370; y=Y3zLjy9JOKDcrG96VEnCZtHToiKxYbxHdrAz2FGnXzGhIt0 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Cass Silva wrote: > I read many years ago that aluminium pans when heated cause aluminium > to enter the food, and that we can begin to overdose on aluminium. > They also took aluminium out of deodorants because it had a cancer > inducing effect. They didn't take out aluminum. They took out hexachlorophine. There have been rumors of aluminum causing illness, but the evidence is generally "cherry picked" (meaning that samples which contradict the desired finding are deliberately ignored). Bart From david-blankenship@comcast.net Thu Sep 01 09:37:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: david-blankenship@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26619 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2005 16:37:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2005 16:37:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc11.comcast.net) (63.240.76.21) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2005 16:37:53 -0000 Received: from 204.127.205.142 (sccrwbc66.asp.att.net[204.127.205.166]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with SMTP id <2005090115341101100t79rme>; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:34:11 +0000 Received: from [67.181.214.129] by 204.127.205.142; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:34:10 +0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:34:10 +0000 Message-Id: <090120051534.21091.43171F72000129440000526322070210539F07089C020A05020E040DD30B07900E0B@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Dec 17 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: ZGF2aWQtYmxhbmtlbnNoaXBAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 63.240.76.21 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: david-blankenship@comcast.net Subject: Re: Theos-World Is There Such a Thing as Pseudo-Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=161088079; y=s2DAuwSyVrwHmcr860SJnXF6hpCeVvKkjAcvy6OHFOaESyYljg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It depends on how narrowly one defines Theosophy and what tradition one follows. Pseudo-Theosophy is a pejorative term much like fundamentalist. David B. -------------- Original message -------------- > Is There Such a Thing as Pseudo-Theosophy? > > Are there distortions of the Theosophical > teachings? > > Click on the following link to see samples > of how H.P.B. viewed "Pseudo-Theosophy." > Notice her frank and forthright language. > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/onpseudotheosophy.htm > > Daniel > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From waking.adept@gmail.com Thu Sep 01 15:21:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: waking.adept@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21473 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2005 22:21:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2005 22:21:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO wproxy.gmail.com) (64.233.184.200) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2005 22:21:54 -0000 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 55so379994wri for ; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.48.62 with SMTP id v62mr1994357wrv; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.156.18 with HTTP; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 18:21:53 -0400 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <43172AD4.6000405@sprynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050901035032.2197.qmail@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43172AD4.6000405@sprynet.com> X-Originating-IP: 64.233.184.200 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Mark Hamilton Jr." Subject: Re: Theos-World Cancer producing agents - Plastic X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=219719026 Aluminum doesn't harm you. They use it to make soda cans now because it is less reactive than Tin cans (tin cans would get that film on it from oxidizing, and would make the soda taste funny). Pure metal will not actually break off and leak into anything. It is bound with unusually strong metallic bonds, formed by the free exchange of electrons between the atoms. However, if there are impurities in the cans, those can leak into the food. Nothing that will kill you, though. -Mark H. On 9/1/05, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Cass Silva wrote: > > I read many years ago that aluminium pans when heated cause aluminium > > to enter the food, and that we can begin to overdose on aluminium. > > They also took aluminium out of deodorants because it had a cancer > > inducing effect. >=20 > They didn't take out aluminum. They took out hexachlorophine. Ther= e > have been rumors of aluminum causing illness, but the evidence is > generally "cherry picked" (meaning that samples which contradict the > desired finding are deliberately ignored). >=20 > Bart >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --=20 Mark Hamilton Jr. waking.adept@gmail.com From jjhe@charter.net Thu Sep 01 16:21:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88026 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2005 23:21:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2005 23:21:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf34.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.159) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2005 23:21:52 -0000 Received: from mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.147]) by mxsf34.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j81NLo85032278 for ; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 19:21:50 -0400 Received: from 68-185-83-242.dhcp.trlk.ca.charter.com (HELO [127.0.0.1]) (68.185.83.242) by mxip17a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 01 Sep 2005 19:21:47 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,163,1122868800"; d="scan'208"; a="1505686675:sNHT22294630" Message-ID: <43178D04.6070407@charter.net> Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:21:40 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <000001c5aef5$88eed060$13d8b3d1@DALLAS> In-Reply-To: <000001c5aef5$88eed060$13d8b3d1@DALLAS> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 209.225.28.159 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: PART I -- Jerry HE: Does GdP actually teach this view given by Frank? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Dear Dallas, >DTB I know that, you don’t --- but sometimes GdeP does, when he starts >at the outset telling his audience that they will not understand.......” >If we all have the same supernal Principles (as in the Monad: ATMA – BUDDHI) >then why say anything like that? > > Yes, I recall G de P starting out like that in some of his ES lectures. All of those and others were later printed as books without putting them into a more proper form for written discourse. G de P, I have been told, also conveyed a great deal of his meanings through voice variations--sometimes, almost to a whisper when communicating an idea which is particularly profound. There are other books of his which are really compilations of answers, or in one case, compilations of questions and answers he gave at various meetings. So, if one is not aware at the onset that his books are for the most part merely transcriptions of lectures, then some of his phrasing comes off rather odd, or tends to take on another shade of meaning because of the change in context and mode of communication. As for G de P telling his audience that they will not understand, then commencing to explain it anyway, was a pretty common thing he did. This has to be taken in context with one of G de P's central teachings: that the kama-manasic mind, or what he called the "brain-mind" is not capable of grasping deeper teachings. So, when he goes on to explain a concept, he knows that the audience will get an idea of the teaching on a manasic level, but they will not be able to truly understand it until they are able to develop their faculties of direct spiritual perception. He explains that even direct spiritual perception, when taken back through the "brain-mind" becomes distorted. This is way ordinary clairvoyants (even the very good ones) never really leave the earthly realms of perception. So, G. de P. makes a distinction between the "ordinary clairvoyance" and "spiritual clairvoyance." In one of his books, the 3 volume "Dialogues of G. de Purucker," I believe, one of his students asked him a very profound question. Keep in mind, that these "Dialogues" are among G. de P's most esoteric material, and this was to a small audience of his more advanced students. He answered the inquirer's question. The enquirer then responded in such a way that made it plain to G de P that the enquirer misunderstood. G de P answered the question again, except in a very different way. He is not just repeat or elaborate his original explanation. The student still did not understand. G. de P. answered the question a third time, in still another very different way. His three answers to the same question and the three very different ways he treated the same topic becomes fascinating reading in itself. >JHE >Because "traditions" are part of the normal structure of our lives >through which people generally orient themselves to their reality. The >gain comes from learning to recognize which beliefs are a product of >tradition and which come through direct realization. > > >DTB Yes – a problem since at that point the individual gives up his >right and power of independent thinking. He no longer knows if a thing said >is either logical, illogical or right or wrong. But as for any results, he >still has to bear the responsibility -- as he did the ostrich bit: “burying >its head in the sand” of IGNORANCE and UNCERTAINTY. > Unfortunately, there are quite a lot of people who gladly give up their right and power of independent thinking as soon as they come across something they can trust. Late last week I went to a local "seminar" led by an Evangelical minister on the subject of the Wicca religion. I go to these things, not because of the information, but because I am very interested in the dynamics of the meetings themselves. In this case, it was not a seminar, as advertised. Rather, the minister communicated to the audience through different manipulative techniques that they are expected to stop thinking and let the minister do the thinking for them. Sadly, this phenomena does not only occur in Evangelical Christian meetings. I have also seen this kind of manipulation occur in Theosophical meetings. >JHE >That is the whole point--to unchain one's expressions from some norm. > > > >DTB That can only be done by severe care and constant attention, not the >reverse. > > Precisely. >There is danger in any “reliance on others,” unless the source has >been repeatedly proven to be impartial, universally true and accurate, and >asks the listener or reader to check and verify. > In my opinion, reliance on others, even those which are reliable, is a danger. Ultimately we need to learn to rely upon ourselves. >And, usually provides adequate references. >That is what THEOSOPHY does all the time, and by THEOSOPHY, I mean the >originals not the add-ons. > HPB's writings, at least, generally provides references which can be checked. This is a sign of good scholarship. Still, even when the references check out, the reliability of the teachings has to be found within one's own experiences. >DTB >NO – WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTINUALLY TEST AND VERIFY IT. > Precisely. >JHE >I realize that this is the standard essentialist approach. > >DTB >REALLY ? I would say it is accepting authority and therefore it is >dangerous. > Right. Blind (and sometimes even reasoned) acceptance of authority is one of the dangers of essentialism. The other is the reliance upon metaphysical ultimates. Metaphysical ultimates may exist, but even if they do, their realm is beyond human experience at this point of our evolution. >JHE One can hear the difference in the way these people talk about Theosophy. > >They do not memorize and utter phrases. > >They do not use technical terminology. > >They know the terms, but they also know how to talk about Theosophy to >those who never heard of Theosophy. > >-------------------------------------- > >DTB Excellent method – now how is this correlated? How do they augment >each-other? > Through discussion. >How can they verify what they have read and thought about? > Through their own experiences. Sometimes they reject an idea. This usually leads to further interesting discussions. >Have they as individuals an as a group been actively building a consensus? > > Passively they have been building a consensus. Consensus is not a goal here, but people who work together tend to build consensus anyway. >Is this recorded for future referral? > The consensus? No central record. Everyone keeps their own notes. They share notes, and sometimes borrow each other's notes. >May I send you a sample of a method used here at one of our study classes? > Yes, please. You are aware that I regularly attended ULT study classes in Los Angeles for about 15 years. Has the pedagogy changed since 1990? >DTB [OF COLOR means what ? In India I was called familiarly by school >friends: "pinky!" -- which was how my skin color appeared to them - I was >the "variant." ] > "People of color" is a phrase used in sociology to denote those which are viewed by the dominant culture (sometimes called "White Anglo-Saxon Protestants") as belonging to a different cultural and socio-economic class. Their skin color may be darker, but not necessarily so. It refers to anyone who is subject to social and or economic discrimination because of their appearance. When I was working in South Central Los Angeles at a hospital, I was the "variant." They called me "white." It was only when someone called me "Honky" that I had cause to worry. >DTB I agree that when one merges into a group that no longer thinks >individually much is lost, even though such groups and their components are >of statistical, demographic significance. And thus, we reenter the labeling >process and the humanity of the INDIVIDUAL is played down into a political >plaything -- and deemed contemptible. > > The problem is that the statistics and the demographics reflect real issues, such as poverty, job discrimination, diseases and brain damage in children caused by diet and filthy conditions resulting from the poverty. The "labeling process" on a statistical level is necessary to identify and solve the specific problems. The problem goes beyond bigotry. There are elements within our socio-economic system which benefits from this kind of discrimination. >Now if one looks at each of those humans as an actually internally being an >immortal, self-evolving and responsible Monad, the whole perspective changes >to the Theosophical one. > > Yes. >I mean "motive" for individual decision now assumes >the importance owed to it. How does one really act to benefit mankind? > > I think this generation, as a whole, is far more "color blind" then previous ones. I don't think, this alone will solve the problems. Our economic system also needs to be reformed. Ideally, acting to benefit humankind is to follow Kant's imperative. We are a long ways from that. >Our so-called demographic analysis, is seen to be at best, an ephemeral >presentation of what is assumed to be a political tool, suitable to be >manipulated by the clever, sly ones who do such dirty work. > Demographic analysis is a two-edged sword. Demographics are indeed used by political parties in order to devise strategies to maintain or win control over districts. Neither of the two major political parties have shown any interest in eliminating those kinds of studies. However, there are other demographic studies used for other purposes, such as the medical research of diseases which tend to occur only in certain gene pools. Sickle cell disease, is one example. I would say, that at this point, greater harm than good would be done if demographic studies were completely eliminated. Though, I would be in favor of eliminating the use of political demographics for the purpose of controlling districts. >I try to resist all such "pressures." I try to discover the root cause of >any plea for use of my "vote," or "action (or those suggested and mandated >by "society" managers and leaders) -- I know I will have to pay for it (I >mean my silence or my decision to act) eventually. > > My wife teaches a class to graduate students on political corruption. It is an optional class for those who are training for a career in Public Administration--that aspect of Federal and local governments which serve the needs of the people. Needless to say, there is a political movement to privatize these services so that they will be controlled by corporations for the purpose of making profit. I have sat in on some of my wife's classes on this subject. I think the main point that the students walk away with is that the corruption in government is systemic and, at this time, out of control. The only thing that Public Administrators will be able to do is to slow down the corruption by doing whatever is in their power not to become a part of it. Those who work within a system and speak out against the corruption are called "whistle blowers." Since there are no meaningful Federal or local protection for Whistle Blowers, they typically, at best, loose their jobs and are barred from getting another one in that field. At worst, they are murdered. There are rare exceptions, where the corruption is exposed, the whistle blower lives, and some action is taken against those who are benefiting from the corruption. Serpico, the New York cop who exposed the police corruption concerning the drug trade is one of those very rare examples. What can we do as ordinary citizens? Well, that is a tough decision. The corruption is pervasive in both political parties. Not voting doesn't help because there are always others who will vote. When we vote, we try to ask who or what proposition will do the least harm. But, to make intelligent decisions of that nature requires people to be aware of what their governments are doing, and get to know their local representatives. Unfortunately, most people limit their source of information to an evening news show--which as often as not, use their time for human interest stories. For instance, in my definition, the Scott Peterson case is not news, though it received hundreds of hours of broadcast time. The Enron case is news. But to learn anything meaningful about it, one has to go to the analytical articles published in such places as the Wall Street Journal. >JHE >Are you aware that this is a stock answer from ULT tradition? > > >DTB You may so demark it. I find it an expression of a position that >cannot be assailed morally. It also assumes I am a responsible thinking >individual and not anyone's asinine tool -- to be manipulated because I am >careless in my duty of careful attention. > > What I am saying is that Theosophical traditions have embodied within them an "us against them" attitude. ULT is right because they stay with the originals. The other traditions are wrong because they strayed away from the originals. >JHE >Are you aware that this view of Theosophical history is the view of >ULT's historical account in "The Theosophical Movement, 1875-1950? >My own view is that history (of any subject) is an open and unending >inquiry. Interestingly, the ancient Greeks also saw it as an open >inquiry. > > >DTB for 60 years or better, I have forced myself to read and review the >documents connected with our current THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT -- and the >AFTERMATH article series in THEOSOPHY magazine. > Precisely my point. The Aftermath articles is an important historical account of the TM from the ULT point of view. Reading and reviewing the original documents is of course, a good thing. But, if all of that information is being filtered through a particular, pre-established orientation, then it just serves to reinforce the point of view one has already adopted. If one wants to read historical accounts, then I would recommend reading all of the histories from all of the traditions as well as the independently written ones. The point is to break the mind set one gains when adopting a particular position. It is a defensive position which makes it difficult to gain new insights independent of the original orientation. >If we are reviewing the same material, then why differences, and why be >vague about them? > > We are viewing the same material. If we have differences concerning history or teachings, they are of no real concern to me. My concern is about process and methodology--not about content. >Are differences to remain " brushed under the mat" or to be exposed and >discussed and settled? > Well, I'm already notorious about raising controversial issues for discussion. Though, I have never seen any of those issues "settled." >It took almost 100 years for the definitive biography of H. P. B. by >Sylvia Cranston to be published {Tarcher, New York }. > I would not call the biography "definitive." You may not be aware that I participated in the process of checking quotes and correcting errors in the 1st edition. But even in the later editions, there is and always will be more to do. Also, you are as aware as I am that even though the book was published independently, Sylvia Cranston was a ULT associate, and her biography is typically representative of the ULT tradition. >Now in regard to Mr. W. Q. Judge (and the infamous JUDGE CASE), Mr. Ernest >Pelletier in Edmonton, president of the Edmonton THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, has >published a large volume vindicating his position. Have you a copy? > I have a copy. Ernie clearly states in the beginning of the book that his intention is to vindicate Judge. He selected and ordered the documents, and formulated his arguments to achieve this end. If Ernie had used a neutral methodology for the purpose of exploring the various issues in the case, for the purpose of better understanding the case (as apposed to vindicating on or another person's position), I would have been much more impressed with the book. I would say that the most valuable aspect of the book is that he put into print, thus making available, many scarce documents. But I already had copies of all of these documents. Best wishes, Jerry W.Dallas TenBroeck wrote: >9/1/2005 4:24 AM > >Thanks Jerry > >Notes below as usual > >Dallas > >================================== > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins >Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:40 PM >To: >Subject: Re: PART I -- Jerry HE: Does GdP actually teach this > > >Dear Dallas, > >DTB I agree, not relevant. Books contain ideas, and it is to those I >refer. SECRET DOCTRINE displays them, I don't need interpretations -- I >prefer to go directly to any SOURCE. > >JHE >Yes, the book, The Secret Doctrine is a printed text, which was intended >to convey certain ideas. People read this book and get different meanings >out of it. > >JHE >Believe me Dallas, I am not talking down to you. > >---------------------------------------- > >DTB I know that, you don’t --- but sometimes GdeP does, when he starts >at the outset telling his audience that they will not understand.......” >If we all have the same supernal Principles (as in the Monad: ATMA – BUDDHI) >then why say anything like that? > >------------------------------- > >DTB >So why bother about "traditions?" What is gained thereby? > > >JHE >Because "traditions" are part of the normal structure of our lives >through which people generally orient themselves to their reality. The >gain comes from learning to recognize which beliefs are a product of >tradition and which come through direct realization. > > >DTB Yes – a problem since at that point the individual gives up his >right and power of independent thinking. He no longer knows if a thing said >is either logical, illogical or right or wrong. But as for any results, he >still has to bear the responsibility -- as he did the ostrich bit: “burying >its head in the sand” of IGNORANCE and UNCERTAINTY. > >------------------------------------------ > >DTB >And why chain ones expressions to some "norm ?" Who benefits? > >JHE >That is the whole point--to unchain one's expressions from some norm. > >----------------------------------------------- > >DTB That can only be done by severe care and constant attention, not the >reverse. There is danger in any “reliance on others,” unless the source has >been repeatedly proven to be impartial, universally true and accurate, and >asks the listener or reader to check and verify. And, usually provides >adequate references. >That is what THEOSOPHY does all the time, and by THEOSOPHY, I mean the >originals not the add-ons. > >DTB >NO – WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONTINUALLY TEST AND VERIFY IT. >-------------------------------------------- > >JHE >I realize that this is the standard essentialist approach. > >---------------------- >DTB >REALLY ? I would say it is accepting authority and therefore it is >dangerous. >---------------------------------- > >JHE >This approach does not work for this generation, so we do not use it. > > >JHE >Here is how we use the SD: We hold day long SD seminars on a quarterly >basis. > >In this format, there are no experts lecturing on what the SD says; we do >not sit around and read the text to each other; nor do we as students tell >each other >what we think the text said. > >Rather, students are given sections which they study and research on their >own. We then meet, and the students share their discoveries--which always >goes way beyond the text. > >The difference between this method and those I have seen used in various >Theosophical traditions is that the students in our group express the >ideas they discovered in the SD in their own words. > >They do not memorize passages in the text, nor do they adopt a jargon. > >None of them have memorized the three fundamental propositions, but they can >all explain, each in their own unique way, what those three fundamental >propositions are, and how they relate to the rest of the book. > >For our approach, It is not about accuracy or inaccuracy of the text, nor >about >accurately quoting the text. It is about the new realizations the students >come to by engaging the text and exploring the subject matter on their own. >The point of these seminars is embodied the process of understanding, not in >the learning of information per se. > >One can hear the difference in the way these people talk about Theosophy. > >They do not memorize and utter phrases. > >They do not use technical terminology. > >They know the terms, but they also know how to talk about Theosophy to >those who never heard of Theosophy. > >-------------------------------------- > >DTB Excellent method – now how is this correlated? How do they augment >each-other? How can they verify what they have read and thought about? >Have they as individuals an as a group been actively building a consensus? >Is this recorded for future referral? > >May I send you a sample of a method used here at one of our study classes? > >---------------------------------- > >JHE >I don't normally use any buzz words, neither the current ones nor the >"time tested ones." If I do, it is in full awareness, and usually >calculated to communicate a certain effect. I believe that the >important thing is not whether we use buzz words, old or new, but >that we are mindful of the fact that we are doing so. An example comes >to mind: At the beginning of the civil rights movement, in the early >60s, people of color -- > >------------------------------- >DTB [OF COLOR means what ? In India I was called familiarly by school >friends: "pinky!" -- which was how my skin color appeared to them - I was >the "variant." ] >---------------------------------------- > >used to come into the coffee houses with new slogans and banners. The new >slogans were stunning--they communicated in a few words a long history of >oppression and way to bring it to an end. > >After a year or so, they still came in uttering the same slogans >and waving the same banners. But, by that time, they had become so used >to uttering them that they had already stopped thinking about what they >really met. They had put themselves in a box, and lost the ability to >see beyond it. They had to reinvent themselves. Then it was W. E. B. >Dubois. Later it became civil rights marches. Personal growth, as well >as social progress continues as long as we are able to see through and >step out of the forms that we create for ourselves. > >------------------------------------------- > >DTB I agree that when one merges into a group that no longer thinks >individually much is lost, even though such groups and their components are >of statistical, demographic significance. And thus, we reenter the labeling >process and the humanity of the INDIVIDUAL is played down into a political >plaything -- and deemed contemptible. > >Now if one looks at each of those humans as an actually internally being an >immortal, self-evolving and responsible Monad, the whole perspective changes >to the Theosophical one. I mean "motive" for individual decision now assumes >the importance owed to it. How does one really act to benefit mankind? > >Our so-called demographic analysis, is seen to be at best, an ephemeral >presentation of what is assumed to be a political tool, suitable to be >manipulated by the clever, sly ones who do such dirty work. > >As I see it, it is amoral at best, and a kind of black-magic action >(conscious or unconscious) at worst. > > >I don't consider this the best aspect of life and living, do you? > >I try to resist all such "pressures." I try to discover the root cause of >any plea for use of my "vote," or "action (or those suggested and mandated >by "society" managers and leaders) -- I know I will have to pay for it (I >mean my silence or my decision to act) eventually. >-------------------------------------------- > >DTB I am a product of my own decisions and work. I say that the U L T >method and attitude has been most helpful -- at least I am NOT burdened with >the need to excuse the poor judgment of those who have diverted theosophical >study away from HPB and the Masters. > >JHE >Are you aware that this is a stock answer from ULT tradition? > >------------------------------------- >DTB You may so demark it. I find it an expression of a position that >cannot be assailed morally. It also assumes I am a responsible thinking >individual and not anyone's asinine tool -- to be manipulated because I am >careless in my duty of careful attention. > >------------------------------------------- > >JHE >Are you aware that this view of Theosophical history is the view of >ULT's historical account in "The Theosophical Movement, 1875-1950? >My own view is that history (of any subject) is an open and unending >inquiry. Interestingly, the ancient Greeks also saw it as an open >inquiry. > >---------------------------------------- > >DTB for 60 years or better, I have forced myself to read and review the >documents connected with our current THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT -- and the >AFTERMATH article series in THEOSOPHY magazine. > >If we are reviewing the same material, then why differences, and why be >vague about them? > >Are differences to remain " brushed under the mat" or to be exposed and >discussed and settled? > >It took almost 100 years for the definitive biography of H. P. B. by >Sylvia Cranston to be published {Tarcher, New York }. > >Now in regard to Mr. W. Q. Judge (and the infamous JUDGE CASE), Mr. Ernest >Pelletier in Edmonton, president of the Edmonton THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY, has >published a large volume vindicating his position. Have you a copy? > > >Thanks best wishes > >Dal > > > > > > >W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > > > >>8/31/2005 3:56 AM >> >>Hi Jerry: Thanks for notes and answers. >> >>I respond below with some inserts; >> >>Dallas >> >>================================ >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins >>Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 11:34 AM >>To: >>Subject: Re: PART I -- RE: Jerry HE: Does GdP actually teach this view >> >> >given > > >>by Frank? >> >> >>Dear Dallas, >> >>DTB >>Of course, if the teachings of THEOSOPHY in the S D are to you only one of >>many traditions, then it may useless to continue and let us both be >>satisfied that there are in the Universe adequate room for many approaches >>to TRUTH. >> >> >>JHE >>It appears that you are not tracking with me. Traditions are social >>constructions created by people acting in common interests over a period >>of time and handed down. Those social constructions include beliefs, >>opinions, customs, rites etc. The SD is not a tradition, but a book. >>As a book, it plays a part in all of the Theosophical traditions that I >>know of. >> >>---------------------------------------- >> >>DTB I agree, not relevant. Books contain ideas, and it is to those I >>refer. SECRET DOCTRINE displays them, I don't need interpretations -- I >>prefer to go directly to any source. >> >>I intensely resent being "talked down to," as everyone's mind is derived >> >> >>from the UNIVERSAL MIND, there are only students and seekers and no > > >>"authorities." So why bother about "traditions?" What is gained thereby? >>And why chain ones expressions to some "norm ?" Who benefits? >> >>If one suspects or denies the accuracy op of the information given in the >>SECRET DOCTRINE, because of personal likes or dislikes -- I don't believe >>that alters the power or depth of the presentation. >> >>On the other hand if we don't read what is there, we will remain ignorant >> >> >of > > >>certain facts that cold be of great importance. >> >>--------------------------------------- >> >> >>DTB >>I do not like labeling or being labeled. It has the disadvantage of being >>too cursory. It may be fair to a collection of personalities, but it is >> >> >too > > >>gross a net to include Individualities. >> >> >>JHW >>Fair enough. But, you labeled yourself. You wrote: >> >>One gets lost in detail and as you suspect my "essentialist approach" is >> >> >one > > >>that strives to use the pure BUDDHI-MANAS and not the KAMA-MANAS. >> >> >>JHE >>So, apparently you also see yourself as preferring an essentialist >>approach. While all approaches have their advantages and limitations, I >>find it interesting that people do find themselves favoring one or >>another. I think it is partly a generational thing. Recently two >>writers, Strauss and Howe came out with a book called generations. It >>is a fascinating study on this subject. It shows, for instance, the >>common characteristics of the neo-conservatives and the hippies of >>George Bush's generation. >> >>------------------ >> >>DTB I do not feel influenced by the time, generation, or any of the >>current buzz words or concepts -- I prefer to time tested ones. So I >> >> >employ > > >>those I find to any situation or problem. One less category to worry >> >> >about. > > >>I freely agree I prefer being a "generalist." I am not hampered by what >>"neighbors" will say. As if that mattered ? Look at history. Whose >>records stand out? The hoi polloi, or the Platos and the Pythagorases? >>What makes the difference? >> >>--------------------- >> >> >>DTB >>Theosophical inter-communication will be of great importance, but every >> >> >care > > >>must be taken to keep it impersonal, non-partisan, non-proselytizing, while >>at the same time a dependable source of information on Theosophical history >>as well as philosophy. >> >> >>JHE >>I would say that inter-communication is now and always has been of great >>importance. Personal or impersonal? I think that depends upon the >>circumstances. I agree that inter-communication is best when non >>partisan and non-proselytizing. However, to do that, one must be aware >>of when one is partisan and/or proselytizing. >> >>To do that, each Theosophist must learn to step outside of the box, the >>tradition, from which he/she came. It reminds me of the story of the >>American that >>goes to France, and, finally in frustration, yells out, "Isn't there >>anyone here who can speak English!" It is only after we are exposed >>to, immerse ourselves in other traditions that we come to recognize that >>we are also a product of tradition. Sadly, there are some who never >>see it--even then. >> >> >>----------------------------------------------- >> >>DTB One starts by humbly learning French as a language. Pride gets one >>nowhere. Everyone can teach us something. Conformity has its price ! >> >>---------------------- >> >> >>DTB >>It must be so conducted that it will never drift into any kind of a >>controlling force. This can always be obviated and guarded against by >>continual reiteration and application of the principle of union. "Mental >>control" of any kind is contrary to the letter and the spirit of our >>Declaration, and that, while Lodges and individuals may seek information, >>advice and suggestion, they are not in any way bound in so doing. >> >> >>JHE >>This is interesting. You speak of the "spirit of our Declaration..." >>It sounds here that you are part of the ULT tradition, which you have >>been active for the last 60 years. Yet, yesterday, you wrote: >>] >> >>DTB There we go again: You assume I have adopted a "tradition." I say >>I am independent, but use any "tradition," to the extent that it is fair, >>free of bias, and true to reason and logic. >> >> >>JHE >>Which is it? Do you see yourself as a product of ULT tradition or not? >> >>----------------------------------------------- >> >>DTB I am a product of my own decisions and work. I say that the U L T >>method and attitude has been most helpful -- at least I am NOT burdened >> >> >with > > >>the need to excuse the poor judgment of those who have diverted >> >> >theosophical > > >>study away from HPB and the Masters. >> >>The History of modern THEOSOPHY is rather well documented and anyone can >>makeup their own minds concerning the route followed by individual and >>societies. >> >>But I would say that time spent on the study of THEOSOPHY is better than >>that spent on studying the "history"(through their writings) of those >>individuals who have seemingly influenced many, and caused the splits and >>rivalries we now witness in what ought to be a unity. Such a Unity >>(originally outlined but Olcott and HPB (see "Key") can only be based on >>principles impartially applied and rigidly adhered to. >> >>I freely admit my connection with U L T as the freest and clearest of >>the many "organisms" that employ the word "THEOSOPHY" >> >>However, as is said therein (Declaration of U L T ) I reserve my own >>individual decision-making power to myself -- as in fact everyone does, >>whether they say that they "belong" to one "society" or another, or to >> >> >none. > > >>------------------------------- >> >>DTB >>We did not invent it. It was given to us; we stand in line and pass it >>along, as people used to do at fires in passing the buckets of water. >> >> >>JHE >>Yes, that is what is called a tradition. >> >> >>DTB >>People are grateful to the one who passes the "water of life" along to >> >> >them, > > >>but the "passer" knows where gratitude belongs, and says: "don't thank me; >>thank Theosophy-as I do. It enables me to help others; it will also enable >>you." >> >> >>JHE >>They indeed are happy. However, it is better that they learn to find >>their own "water of life." >> >>============================= >> >>DTB Agreed. More is gained thereby. >> >>thanks and enjoyed, >> >>Dal >> >>----------- >> >> >>Best wishes, >>Jerry >> >> >>-------- CUT -------------- >> >> >>Consider the following: >> >> >>"It is futile to accept revelations on anybody’s say-so. They convey no >>knowledge, and it is actual knowledge that is required by each one. >>Shibboleths and formulas are mere words, not a criterion of truth. >> >>Theosophy is in the world to present the means by which each one can >> >> >acquire > > >>knowledge for himself. Its study and application call forth the judgment >> >> >and > > >>discrimination latent in the man himself. >> >>Truth is not a man, nor a book, nor a statement. The nature of Truth is >>universal; its possessors in any degree will be found to be appliers of >>universality in thought, speech and action. Their efforts will be for >>humanity regardless of sex, creed, caste or color. They will never be found >>among those claiming to be the chosen spokesman of the Deity—and exacting >>homage from their fellow-men: true Brotherhood includes the least developed >>as well as the very highest. We must seek to give aid to all in search of >>truth. >> >>Our value and aid in this great work will be just what we make them by our >>motive, our judgment, our conduct. >> >>The heart-felt desire that others may benefit from our lives will be felt >> >> >by > > >>those open—it matters little how few; they may be the means of wakening >> >> >many > > >>others. It is the effort and the sacrifice that bring the ultimate results, >>but in our zeal it is well to consider what the Masters have done, and do >>year after year, age after age. >> >>They do what They can, when They can, and as They can—in accordance with >>cyclic law. They conserve the knowledge gained—and wait. Knowing this, and >>doing thus, there can be no room in us for doubt or discouragement. >> >>Theosophy is for those who want it. We are to hold, wait, and work for >> >> >those > > >>few earnest souls who will grasp the plan and further the Cause. Many have >>their ears so dulled, or their attention so diverted, that no number of >>repetitions can reach them—yet Theosophy must be held out continually for >>all who will listen. That is our self-assumed work; we have our example in >>H. P. B. and W. Q. J. to means, method and manner: let us imitate them, and >>so do their work in their spirit. >> >>The Theosophical “arch” has been thrown across the abyss of creeds and >>materialism. Some have discovered where a base rests on one or the other >>side; others have found “stones” that belong to the arch, but the >>“key-stone” has been “rejected” because of its irregular shape—all like the >>story of old in Masonic tradition. But we are also reminded that the time >>came when the rejected stone became “the head of the corner” because it was >>found to be the key-stone. All the time there were those who knew of the >>key-stone, but they were very few and their voices were not heard amid the >>clamor of the claims made by those who had found portions of the arch and >>desired recognition. So the few had to “Work, Watch—and ‘Wait,” knowing >> >> >that > > >>history repeats itself, and that there is nothing new under the sun. >> >>The allegory of the tower of Babel applies to the present times. Everything >>is in confusion, everyone talking his own gibberish—and nobody listening. I >>said “nobody”—but some are; a few realize that none of these things bring >>knowledge. All that can be done is to let the light so shine that all who >>will may seek it, thus sowing for future harvest. It would be a hopeless >>task were is not for Reincarnation; so the great effort should be to >>promulgate the fundamental principles of Unity, of Brotherhood, of Karma >> >> >and > > >>Reincarnation. >> >> >>[ Bab-El means: Gateway of the SUN The portal to WISDOM. >>It has an esoteric significance, indicating one of the ancient mystery >>schools and its teachings -- "within" -- and the confusion -- >> >> >"without."] > > >>Also: >> >>"What was the religion of the Third and Fourth Races? In the common >>acceptation of the term, neither the Lemurians, nor yet their progeny, the >>Lemuro-Atlanteans, had any, as they knew no dogma, nor had they to believe >>on faith. >> >>No sooner had the mental eye of man been opened to understanding, than the >>Third Race felt itself one with the ever-present as the ever to be unknown >>and invisible ALL, the One Universal Deity. Endowed with divine powers, and >>feeling in himself his inner God, each felt he was a Man-God in his nature, >>though an animal in his physical Self. >> >>The struggle between the two began from the very day they tasted of the >>fruit of the Tree of Wisdom; a struggle for life between the spiritual and >>the psychic, the psychic and the physical. Those who conquered the lower >>principles by obtaining mastery over the body, joined the "Sons of Light." >> >>Those who fell victims to their lower natures, became the slaves of Matter. >>>>From "Sons of Light and Wisdom" they ended by becoming the "Sons of >>Darkness." They had fallen in the battle of mortal life with Life immortal, >>and all those so fallen became the seed of the future generations of >>Atlanteans.* >> >>At the dawn of his consciousness, the man of the Third Root Race had thus >> >> >no > > >>beliefs that could be called religion. That is to say, he was equally as >>ignorant of "gay religions, full of pomp and gold" as of any system of >> >> >faith > > >>or outward worship. But if the term is to be defined as the binding >> >> >together > > >>of the masses in one form of reverence paid to those we feel higher than >>ourselves, of piety — as a feeling expressed by a child toward a loved >>parent — then even the earliest Lemurians had a religion — and a most >>beautiful one — from the very beginning of their intellectual life. Had >> >> >they > > >>not their bright gods of the elements around >> >>------------------------------------- >> >>* The name is used here in the sense of, and as a synonym of "sorcerers." >>The Atlantean races were many, and lasted in their evolution for millions >> >> >of > > >>years: all were not bad. They became so toward their end, as we (the fifth) >>are fast becoming now. >>------------------------------------------------ >> >>them, and even within themselves? * >> >>Was not their childhood passed with, nursed and tendered by those who had >>given them life and called them forth to intelligent, conscious life? We >> >> >are > > >>assured it was so, and we believe it. >> >>For the evolution of Spirit into matter could never have been achieved; nor >>would it have received its first impulse, had not the bright Spirits >>sacrificed their own respective super-ethereal essences to animate the man >>of clay, by endowing each of his inner principles with a portion, or >> >> >rather, > > >>a reflection of that essence. >> >>The Dhyanis of the Seven Heavens (the seven planes of Being) are the >>NOUMENOI of the actual and the future Elements, just as the Angels of the >>Seven Powers of nature - the grosser effects of which are perceived by us >> >> >in > > >>what Science is pleased to call the "modes of motion" — the imponderable >>forces and what not — are the still higher noumenoi of still higher >>Hierarchies. [see S D I 570-5] >> >>It was the "Golden Age" in those days of old, the age when the "gods walked >>the earth, and mixed freely with the mortals." Since then, the gods >> >> >departed > > >>(i.e., became invisible), and later generations ended by worshipping their >>kingdoms — the Elements. >> >>It was the Atlanteans, the first progeny of semi-divine man after his >>separation into sexes — hence the first-begotten and humanly-born mortals — >>who became the first "Sacrificers" to the god of matter. >> >>They stand in the far-away dim past, in ages more than prehistoric, as the >>prototype on which the great symbol of Cain was built, † as the first >>anthropomorphists who worshipped form and matter. That worship degenerated >>very soon into self-worship, thence led to phallicism, or that which reigns >>supreme to this day in the symbolisms of every exoteric religion of ritual, >>dogma, and form. Adam and Eve became matter, or furnished the soil, Cain >> >> >and > > >>Abel — the latter the life-bearing soil, the former "the tiller of that >>ground or field." >> >>Thus the first Atlantean races, born on the Lemurian Continent, separated >> >> >>from their earliest tribes into the righteous and the unrighteous; into > > >>those who worshipped the one unseen Spirit of Nature, the ray of which man >>feels within himself — or the Pantheists, and those who offered fanatical >>worship to the Spirits of the Earth, the dark Cosmic, anthropomorphic >>Powers, with whom they made alliance. These were the earliest Gibborim, >> >> >"the > > >>mighty men of renown in those days" (Gen. vi.); who become with the Fifth >>Race the Kabirim: Kabiri with the Egyptians and the Phoenicians, Titans >> >> >with > > >>the Greeks, and Rakshasas and Daityas with the Indian races. >> >>Such was the secret and mysterious origin of all the subsequent and modern >>religions, especially of the worship of the later Hebrews for their tribal >>god. At the same time this sexual religion was closely allied to, based >> >> >upon > > >>and blended, so to say, with astronomical phenomena. >> >>The Lemurians gravitated toward the North Pole, or the Heaven of their >>Progenitors (the Hyperborean Continent); the Atlanteans, toward the >> >> >Southern > > >>Pole, the pit, cosmically and terrestrially — whence breathe the hot >>passions blown into hurricanes by the cosmic Elementals, whose abode it is. >>The two poles were denominated, by the ancients, Dragons and Serpents — >>hence good and bad Dragons and Serpents, and also the names given to the >>"Sons of God" (Sons of Spirit and Matter): the good and bad Magicians. This >>is the origin of this dual and triple nature in man. >> >>The legend of the "Fallen Angels" in its esoteric signification, contains >>the key to the manifold contradictions of human character; it points to the >>secret of man's self-consciousness; it is the angle-iron on which hinges >> >> >his > > >>entire life-cycle; — the history of his evolution and growth. >> >>On a firm grasp of this doctrine depends the correct understanding of >>esoteric anthropogenesis. It gives a clue to the vexed question of the >>Origin of Evil; and shows how man himself is the separator of the ONE into >>various contrasted aspects. >> >>The reader, therefore, will not be surprised if so considerable space is >>devoted in each case to an attempt to elucidate this difficult and obscure >>subject. A good deal must necessarily be said on its symbological aspect; >>because, by so doing, hints are given to the thoughtful student for his own >>investigations, and more light can thus be suggested than it is possible to >>convey in the technical phrases of a more formal, philosophical exposition. >>The "Fallen Angels," so-called, are Humanity itself. The Demon of Pride, >>Lust, Rebellion, and Hatred, has never had any being before the appearance >>of physical conscious man. It is man who has begotten, nurtured, and >> >> >allowed > > >>the fiend to develop in his heart; he, again, who has contaminated the >>indwelling god in himself, by linking the pure spirit with the impure demon >>of matter. And, if the Kabalistic saying, "Demon est Deus inversus" finds >>its metaphysical and theoretical corroboration in dual manifested nature, >>its practical application is found in Mankind alone. >> >>Thus it has now become self-evident that postulating as we do (a) the >>appearance of man before that of other mammalia, and even before the ages >> >> >of > > >>the huge reptiles; (b) periodical deluges and glacial periods owing to the >>karmic disturbance of the axis; and chiefly (c) the birth of man from a >>Superior Being, or what materialism would call a supernatural Being, though >>it is only super-human — it is evident that our teachings have very few >>chances of an impartial hearing. >> >>Add to it the claim that a portion of the Mankind in the Third Race — all >>those Monads of men who had reached the highest point of Merit and Karma in >>the preceding Manvantara — owed their psychic and rational natures to >> >> >divine > > >>Beings hypostasizing into their fifth principles, and the Secret Doctrine >>must lose caste in the eyes of not only Materialism but even of dogmatic >>Christianity. >> >>For, no sooner will the latter have learned that those angels are identical >>with their "Fallen" Spirits, than the esoteric tenet will be proclaimed >> >> >most > > >>terribly heretical and pernicious.* >> >>The divine man dwelt in the animal, and, therefore, when the physiological >>separation took place in the natural course of evolution — when also "all >>the animal creation was untied," and males were attracted to females — that >>race fell: not because they had eaten of the fruit of Knowledge and knew >>good from evil, but because they knew no better. Propelled by the sexless >>creative instinct, the early sub-races had evolved an intermediate race in >>which, as hinted in the Stanzas, the higher Dhyan-Chohans had incarnated. † >> >> > > > >>"When we have ascertained the extent of the Universe and learnt to know all >>that there is in it, we will multiply our race," answer the Sons of Will >> >> >and > > >>Yoga to their brethren of the same race, who invite them to do as they do. >>This means that the great Adepts and Initiated ascetics will "multiply," >>i.e., once more produce Mind-born immaculate Sons — in the Seventh >>Root-Race. " S D II 272 - 8 >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Sep 01 21:31:25 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20913 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2005 04:31:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2005 04:31:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2005 04:31:25 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 04:31:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.71] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 04:31:25 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 04:31:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3113 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.38 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.23.244 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: The JUDGE CASE by Ernest E. Pelletier X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=0paqphD6PBb6LXoehEWpGOjKi9iCOeTz7MdG1e8K3zr3ZKle-ZRNs6Co X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell I see that both Dallas T. and Jerry HE. have made a few brief comments on Ernest Pelletier's book THE JUDGE CASE. I wonder if Dallas has read and studied the review of this book by Brett Forray in THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY, April, 2005, pp. 14-23. Forray shows quite clearly that the book is a very one-sided account of the Judge Case in Judge's favor. See Forray's numerous examples of this. Although I agree with Jerry that the book is a treasure trovel of historical documents, it is unfortunate that Pelletier left out so many other relevant documents. Again see examples in Forray's review. I noticed right away that Pelleter had NOT reprinted Edmund Garrett's booklet ISIS VERY MUCH UNVEILED. This is a source document of great importance as it includes facsimiles of many of the Mahatma Letters apparently received through Judge. The reprinting of this document would have been helpful to the reader who might want to carefully compare what Annie Besant wrote in her THE CASE AGAINST W.Q. JUDGE with Mr. Judge's rebuttals. Again I see that Pelletier has copied into his book from my website the series of articles by H.N. Stokes on the Judge-Tingley relationship but did not include other extremely relevant documents on my website, such as Judge's diary of Oct-Dec. 1894. This diary throws a great deal of light on Judge's deposing of Mrs. Besant from co-head of the E.S.T. Etc., etc. For additional points, see some of my previous comments on material in THE JUDGE CASE at: http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200501/tt00027.html http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200501/tt00022.html http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200501/tt00025.html http://free.hostdepartment.com/r/reneewilliamss/comparison.htm http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/20633 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/20638 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/20842 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/20871 http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200501/tt00260.html http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200501/tt00231.html It is interesting that I sent all of this material directly to Ernest Pelletier and he never replied even to acknowledge that he had received the material. You would have thought with his interest in the subject matter that he would have made some kind of reply. Again Dallas was made aware of all this material and he choose not to respond either. As I have read and carefully studied the narratives written by Pelletier in this book I have come to the conclusion that Pelletier employs (as much as Paul Johnson ever did) speculative possibilities with little or no documentation whatsever. No doubt, Pelletier devoted hundreds if not thousands of hours to collecting the documents reprinted in this volume and in doing the extensive chronological survey and all students of Theosophical history owe his a big thanks. But the above mentioned "gaps" and "speculations" make the book less than useful especially to students who may not know much about the subject but would like to know more. Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Sep 01 21:36:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73339 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2005 04:36:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2005 04:36:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2005 04:36:26 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 04:36:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.89] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 04:36:26 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 04:36:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1599 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.50 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.23.244 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Was there actually TAMPERING with the 1884 Judge letter??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=Qjj8XywujPWR0PTjW9Ff3yCI6sa95HfzF7p6zG3ruzY6vcTgGHLV5EVw X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Concerning the Judge 1884 letter which can be viewed at: http://free.hostdepartment.com/r/reneewilliamss/wqj.htm Ernest Pelletier in his book THE JUDGE CASE, Part I, p. 374 writes: "The paper was very thin and the writing on the opposite side could easily be seen through it." A facsimile of the opposite side illustrating what Pelletier wrote can be seen at: http://free.hostdepartment.com/r/reneewilliamss/2.jpg If we take the image of the opposite side and flip the image we are then able to read the letter. See: http://free.hostdepartment.com/r/reneewilliamss/4.jpg Here we are actually reading the letter from the opposite side! Certainly this illustrates that the paper was very thin and that the writing is "bleeding thru" the paper Now consider Pelletier's contention: "...the note ['Do not show these to any one ....'] was purposedly placed there in order to conceal the words 'a friend' to give the impression there were no other words after 'by' in the sentence...." But from the opposite side as seen in: http://free.hostdepartment.com/r/reneewilliamss/4.jpg is the note also concealing the words "a friend"? And how is the note concealing the words either on the front side or on the opposite (back) side?? Also a crucial piece of info is missing from Pelletier's description. Was the letter written in INK? I would like clarification on HOW the note was PLACED THERE in order to conceal the two words. How did the "note" conceal or coverup the two words?? What is Ernest Pelletier suggesting as the method of "covering up" the words? Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Sep 01 21:40:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74445 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2005 04:40:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2005 04:40:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2005 04:40:05 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 04:40:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.72] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 04:40:04 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 04:40:01 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 145 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.40 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:7:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.23.244 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: W.Q. Judge's Sept. 17, 1884 Letter to N.D. Khandalavala X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=OqTedzl_8pyA42DkcOf_bKsk-3cS-tGmLghql33vIvQCnt0xNiA2RfrQ X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell W.Q. Judge's Sept. 17, 1884 Letter to N.D. Khandalavala See: http://free.hostdepartment.com/r/reneewilliamss/wqj.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Sep 01 21:48:57 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2960 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2005 04:48:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2005 04:48:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2005 04:48:56 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 04:48:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.74] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 04:48:56 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 04:48:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 733 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.37 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.23.244 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Jerry and Dallas: Was there actually TAMPERING with the 1884 Judge letter??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=UZhA3biO2YXVKyvO9t_fxS1-8GmP8hHd56FXuth4rw1ze5IDuz31CcOX X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Jerry and Dallas, I am curious to know if either one of you believe that there was actually tampering with the 1884 Judge letter as Pelletier contends in his book? See: http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200501/tt00022.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/28180 http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200501/tt00025.html http://free.hostdepartment.com/r/reneewilliamss/comparison.htm http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/20871 I can't see how the alleged tampering was accomplished in LIGHT of the above reproductions that I have provided. Ernest Pelletier was apparently not interested enough to to write to me and throw any additional light on the matter. What do the two of you think? Daniel From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Sep 02 01:20:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80395 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2005 08:20:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2005 08:20:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.61) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2005 08:20:38 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.64] by n8.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 08:20:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by mailer1.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 08:20:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 08:20:30 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 08:20:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <090120051534.21091.43171F72000129440000526322070210539F07089C020A05020E040DD30B07900E0B@comcast.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1499 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.23.244 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: David B. ---- Re: Is There Such a Thing as Pseudo-Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=l6yRyxTRnrt6pmZm6hdsqlOrgKDFPzNlWUo4i4C4a-PWTlhMlh_-Y2m3 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell David, Thanks for your comment below. I was simply trying to show how HPB defined Theosophy. Please note that it was HPB herself who named one of her articles: "Pseudo- Theosophy." So are you saying that HPB was using the term in a "pejorative" way. I don't know if you would agree that HPB knew what Theosophy is all about but if you do, then would you also agree that she probably knew what constituted "pseudo-Theosophy." Apparently she believed there was such as thing as "pseudo-Theosophy." Again you might ask yourself: How narrowly was HPB defining Theosophy in the examples I gave? And what tradition do you think she was following? Daniel http://hpb.cc --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, david-blankenship@c... wrote: > It depends on how narrowly one defines Theosophy and what tradition one follows. Pseudo-Theosophy is a pejorative term much like fundamentalist. > > David B. > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > Is There Such a Thing as Pseudo-Theosophy? > > > > Are there distortions of the Theosophical > > teachings? > > > > Click on the following link to see samples > > of how H.P.B. viewed "Pseudo-Theosophy." > > Notice her frank and forthright language. > > > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/onpseudotheosophy.htm > > > > Daniel > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Fri Sep 02 03:56:46 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31360 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2005 10:56:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2005 10:56:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.48) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2005 10:56:43 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n19.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 10:56:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2005 10:56:43 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:56:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 7628 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.48 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 59.167.46.46 From: "prmoliveira" Subject: Madame Blavatsky on Dogma and Orthodoxy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617; y=CB7b2wX9J8_5mKgL4EEdTE3sfS0fnvbNomNaWCB3VIb2p-Sdcyo X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira As Madame Blavatsky's writings have generated discussion on this list=20 recently, perhaps it would be useful, particularly for the sake of=20 those who are not conversant with her writings, to review what she=20 wrote about dogma and orthodoxy. When one reads about her life and her=20 personality it becomes difficult to entertain the notion that she would=20 ever have accepted the view that her works are either the final word on=20 Theosophy or an authority that can never be examined critically. (PO) "Dogma and authority have ever been the curse of humanity, the great=20 extinguishers of light and truth." (H. P. Blavatsky Collected Writings,=20 XIV, p. 117) "Dogma? Faith? These are the right and left pillars of every soul- crushing theology. Theosophists have no dogmas, exact no blind faith."=20 (BCW, I, 304) "But what are really culture and civilization? Dickens' idea that our=20 hearts have benefited as much by macadam as our boots, is more original=20 from a literary, than an aphoristical, standpoint. It is not true in=20 principle, and it is disproved in nature by the very fact that there=20 are far more good-hearted and noble-minded men and women in muddy=20 country villages than there are in macadamised Paris or London. Real=20 culture is spiritual. It proceeds from within outwards, and unless a=20 person is naturally noble-minded and strives to progress on the=20 spiritual before he does so on the physical or outward plane, such=20 culture and civilization will be no better than whitened sepulchres=20 full of dead men's bones and decay. And how can there be any true=20 spiritual and intellectual culture when dogmatic creeds are the State=20 religion and enforced under the penalty of the opprobrium of large=20 communities of "believers." No dogmatic creed can be progressive.=20 Unless a dogma is the expression of a universal and proven fact in=20 nature, it is no better than mental and intellectual slavery. One who=20 accepts dogmas easily ends by becoming a dogmatist himself. And, as=20 Watts has well said: "A dogmatical spirit inclines a man to be=20 censorious of his neighbors. . . . . He is tempted to disdain his=20 correspondents as men of low and dark understandings because they do=20 not believe what he does."" (BCW, XII, 272) "Student.=97Admitting all you say, are not we, as Theosophists, to=20 welcome every discovery of truth in any field, especially such truth as=20 lessens suffering or enlarges the moral sense?=20 Sage.=97That is our duty. All truths discovered must be parts of the one=20 Absolute Truth, and so much added to the sum of our outer knowledge.=20 There will always be a large number of men who seek for these parts of=20 truth, and others who try to alleviate present human misery. They each=20 do a great and appointed work that no true Theosophist should ignore.=20 And it is also the duty of the latter to make similar efforts when=20 possible, for Theosophy is a dead thing if it is not turned into the=20 life. At the same time, no one of us may be the judge of just how much=20 or how little our brother is doing in that direction. If he does all=20 that he can and knows how to do, he does his whole present duty." (BCW,=20 IX, 103) "* With the exception of a few agnostics, all the Fellows of the outer=20 (exoteric) section of the Theosophical Society, continue to profess the=20 respective religion in which they were born, remaining in it and=20 following its dogmas and rituals, just as they did before=20 becoming "Theosophists." Acquainted with our Society as he has been for=20 many years, Mr. Solovyov should also know that "Theosophy" is not "a=20 religion without definite dogmas," as he expresses it, but is a=20 universal system of philosophy, absolutely without any man-made dogmas.=20 Therefore, the Society, as such, remains in its collective whole=20 without participation in the dogmas of any religion, but respects both=20 the beliefs and rites pertaining to the faith of each one of its=20 members, belonging as they do to various religious creeds." (BCW, XII,=20 341, footnote) "Theosophy, and the rules of its Society if not the embodiment and=20 practical demonstration of the widest tolerance and of the broadest=20 Catholicity would be but a farce. Freethought, which in the views of=20 the lexicographers is only unbelief "which discards revelation"=20 and "undue boldness of speculation" according to Berkeley, is, in the=20 rules of our Society, a sine qua non of true theosophy which being=20 liberty of thought untrammelled searches for and accepts truth, and=20 nothing but the truth, sacred to every lover of Wisdom. Hence, while=20 laughing at this absurdly sudden change of front, evanescent as it is,=20 on the part of several of our Christian contemporaries in our favour,=20 we cannot but feel at the same time, indignant at the strenuous though=20 fruitless attempts made by the Light of the World to use us,=20 Theosophists, as convenient weapons in its warfare against (if not=20 altogether for "the cure of") Infidelity. It would fain profit by the=20 darkness thrown over the heathen word "theosophy" through the fanciful=20 etymology it has been given in the Dictionaries compiled by=20 monotheistic lexicographers, and use the term now, as a sledge-hammer=20 to break the heads of Secularism and Freethought. Against this we=20 protest. We may not be in sympathy with materialism, and may even abhor=20 it; yet the Theosophical Society ought never to forget that which it=20 owes to Freethinkers. It is to the unceasing efforts of a long series=20 of adherents to Freethought=97almost every one of whom has been made a=20 martyr to his convictions at the hands of bigotry=97that we, in the=20 present century, owe the very possibility of our existence as an=20 organized body. And the fact that none of us has been or can be now=20 roasted alive in Trafalgar Square=97to the greater glory of that God to=20 belief in whom Annie Besant is now alleged to have been converted=97is=20 due to the long battle of Freethought against Superstition and dark=20 fanaticism." (BCW, XI, 410) "In its capacity of an abstract body, the Society [the TS] does not=20 believe in anything, does not accept anything, and does not teach=20 anything." (BCW, XI, 124) "Orthodoxy in Theosophy is a thing neither possible nor desirable. It=20 is diversity of opinion, within certain limits, that keeps the=20 Theosophical Society a living and a healthy body, its many other ugly=20 features notwithstanding. Were it not, also, for the existence of a=20 large amount of uncertainty in the minds of students of Theosophy, such=20 healthy divergencies would be impossible, and the Society would=20 degenerate into a sect, in which a narrow and stereotyped creed would=20 take the place of the living and breathing spirit of Truth and an ever=20 growing Knowledge." (BCW, IX, 243-244) "Every such attempt as the Theosophical Society has hitherto ended in=20 failure, because, sooner or later, it has degenerated into a sect, set=20 up hard-and-fast dogmas of its own, and so lost by imperceptible=20 degrees that vitality which living truth alone can impart. You must=20 remember that all our members have been bred and born in some creed or=20 religion, that all are more or less of their generation both physically=20 and mentally, and consequently that their judgment is but too likely to=20 be warped and unconsciously biassed by some or all of these influences.=20 If, then, they cannot be freed from such inherent bias, or at least=20 taught to recognise it instantly and so avoid being led away by it, the=20 result can only be that the Society will drift off on to some sandbank=20 of thought or another, and there remain a stranded carcass to moulder=20 and die." (The Key to Theosophy, Conclusion)=20 =20 From david-blankenship@comcast.net Fri Sep 02 09:05:33 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: david-blankenship@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5974 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2005 16:05:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2005 16:05:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc12.comcast.net) (204.127.202.56) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2005 16:05:31 -0000 Received: from 204.127.205.142 (sccrwbc61.asp.att.net[204.127.205.161]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <20050902160531012002lk41e>; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:05:31 +0000 Received: from [67.181.214.129] by 204.127.205.142; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:05:28 +0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:05:28 +0000 Message-Id: <090220051605.676.431878480007499B000002A422058844849F07089C020A05020E040DD30B07900E0B@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Dec 17 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: ZGF2aWQtYmxhbmtlbnNoaXBAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 204.127.202.56 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: david-blankenship@comcast.net Subject: Re: Theos-World David B. ---- Re: Is There Such a Thing as Pseudo-Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=161088079; y=VRVt9AOx1lsVW0JSsqsmntQDWath6O7ZtSNCAFipGWZwp4WE8g Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I am relatively new to theosophy and not an expert, sometimes she seems inconsistent. She states that Theosophy is newer statement of the wisdom tradition that has been around for ages. That various famous philosophers in the past were theosophers. That the wisdom tradition has given teachings in the past and will after a time, in the future. Each is an aspect of an ancient tradition. It is difficult reconcile the two. Theosophy is either the name for the wisdom tradition or it is her narrow definition that she applied to her teachings. She has demonstrated clairvoyance, as has been reported on theos-talk. It seems an argument between clairvoyants, parts of which science has proved wrong by both her and the Besant and Leadbeater team. I hope I have stated it clearly enough. David B. ------------- Original message -------------- > David, > > Thanks for your comment below. > > I was simply trying to show how HPB defined Theosophy. Please note > that it was HPB herself who named one of her articles: "Pseudo- > Theosophy." > > So are you saying that HPB was using the term in a "pejorative" > way. I don't know if you would agree that HPB knew what Theosophy > is all about but if you do, then would you also agree that she > probably knew what constituted "pseudo-Theosophy." Apparently she > believed there was such as thing as "pseudo-Theosophy." > > Again you might ask yourself: > > How narrowly was HPB defining Theosophy in the examples I gave? > > And what tradition do you think she was following? > > Daniel > http://hpb.cc > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, david-blankenship@c... wrote: > > It depends on how narrowly one defines Theosophy and what > tradition one follows. Pseudo-Theosophy is a pejorative term much > like fundamentalist. > > > > David B. > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > Is There Such a Thing as Pseudo-Theosophy? > > > > > > Are there distortions of the Theosophical > > > teachings? > > > > > > Click on the following link to see samples > > > of how H.P.B. viewed "Pseudo-Theosophy." > > > Notice her frank and forthright language. > > > > > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/onpseudotheosophy.htm > > > > > > Daniel > > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ringding@online.de Fri Sep 02 10:07:41 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83958 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2005 17:07:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2005 17:07:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.177) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2005 17:07:08 -0000 Received: from p54BFA7EE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.167.238] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKxQS-1EBF0M2Bax-0004Dm; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:07:06 +0200 Message-ID: <00ca01c5afe0$d3d98430$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 19:07:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.177 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Hurricane Katrina - Why comes no help? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=pqhITvnmyVJX910h6EVoIf9Od8t6ctDXT30WYoreHKgCNczJpw8hZxmrYQ X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer The hurricane destroyed a whole city. They get no help by the Bush administration since days, although there was a forewarning. No prememptive strike, no Navy, no army standing in the back to be ready for help ASAP. The pictures of the destroyed cites in the New Orleans area remind a German theosophist to similar domestic pictures of 1944-45, when Jewish-American freedom and liberty bombed destroyed Germany's cities (BTW, Wurzburg (Elberfeld), where HPB began to wirte her major work The Secret Doctrine was the city which was with 95% the relatively most destroyed one). The pictures of Berlin, Hambrg, Dresden, Cologne, Munich, Vienna, Pforzheim etc. come to mind. Although the Germans suffered physically, they remained unbroken spiritually. The remedial actions worked. There was no chaos from within, everyone worked for the public interest. Egoism was the exception. This untold but remarkable behaviour is owed by the general high-mindedness of the Germans and their high regards for virtues, which the governments of Bismarck, Wilhelm II. and Hitler strengthened. What is the reason that such chaos, looterings, murder, rape, rap in New Orleans could happen? Is it the general cultivation of the lower self? The every day appeal to outsmart your neighbour, your colleagues? No doubt, if such a cataclysm would happen in the Germany of today, I have no doubt that we would see the same pictures on tv. But the spiritual conditions were otherwise before the German soul was killed. One thing is certain: If that cataclysm would happen today on the German coast and there were no help from the goverment since several days - the chancellor would be kicked out of office by return. Is not Theosophy and its appeal of Universal Brotherhood the spiritual antidot for this outbursts of the lower self? American patriot and theosophical Leader Katherine Tingley gave some practical examples with their Sisters of Mercy and other first aid actions to help victims of wars and cataclysms. Where are the Theosophists of today? The US Army has ordered a ban on leave for September. Is it that the new war against Iran is in its last phase of preparation? Was the Hurricane Katrina butting into the onrolling war machine and the GIs on the way to Iran have to be redirected? Is that the reason why the Bush government sent no troops to help the Americans in New Orleans? Because they are prepared to help (liberate) the Iranians? Or is it that it concerns only a poor Southern state? Do they just follow the Kissinger doctrine that they will get rid of the poor, stupid mob? Kissinger wants that 5 out of the 6 billions people of the world must be get rid of by violence to have a paradise in the aftermath. Do the New Orleaners die for the sake of the One World conspiracy? Questions over questions? Who is able to answer? Frank From eletzerich@yahoo.com Fri Sep 02 10:13:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13082 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2005 17:13:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2005 17:13:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web54103.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.37.238) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2005 17:13:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 84810 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Sep 2005 17:13:37 -0000 Message-ID: <20050902171337.84808.qmail@web54103.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [83.171.216.254] by web54103.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:13:37 PDT Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 10:13:37 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <00ca01c5afe0$d3d98430$152ca8c0@thebeast> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 206.190.37.238 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 From: Erica Letzerich Subject: Re: Theos-World Hurricane Katrina - Why comes no help? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419; y=gMt_7Bi61tqdmZIiedOlHDMb9sSlIErUcg84VTiEaO0cX8bKkA X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was also wondering why there is no help. At least in the news here it shows all the time the victims complaining that the government did not send help, food or medicine for them. Erica Frank Reitemeyer wrote: The hurricane destroyed a whole city. They get no help by the Bush administration since days, although there was a forewarning. No prememptive strike, no Navy, no army standing in the back to be ready for help ASAP. The pictures of the destroyed cites in the New Orleans area remind a German theosophist to similar domestic pictures of 1944-45, when Jewish-American freedom and liberty bombed destroyed Germany's cities (BTW, Wurzburg (Elberfeld), where HPB began to wirte her major work The Secret Doctrine was the city which was with 95% the relatively most destroyed one). The pictures of Berlin, Hambrg, Dresden, Cologne, Munich, Vienna, Pforzheim etc. come to min