From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Mon Aug 01 00:31:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79163 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2005 07:31:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2005 07:31:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx02.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.12) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2005 07:31:10 -0000 Received: from 3e6b3c87.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.60.135] helo=khidr) by mx02.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1DzUlQ-0001KF-2m for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:31:09 +0200 Message-ID: <001201c5966b$3623a560$873c6b3e@khidr> To: References: <000301c595ca$9ac596a0$248cb3d1@DALLAS> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 09:32:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.12 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Greogory's biggest mistake in life X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=4LzrB_Vs6Ww6KuuFQ1TCm4cwO6isrsf9CFf19Bv5iJrr X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo all, My views are: Thanks to Dallas and other replies. Here is the continuation of the chapter by Idries Shah with a few changes added by me. The use of the word 'he' instead of 'she' at certain places in the text, was done to make the text more readable. The last sentence in the previous email were: "This is the least useful but most attractive component." And now we have: CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE ESOTERICAL AND THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS (PART 2) " Q: How is it known to the participants of such a group as to how accurate or meaningful their theosophical 'work' is? A: There are no two ways about it. Either it is known to their teacher, if one still exists, in which case he will remedy defects, and they will not be perpetuated. Or it is totally repetitious, and the effort has become an - administrative - one. This happen when there has been no true succession of teaching, so that there is nobody at the top sufficiently developed to be able to diagnose the situation. In this case the group has become to a greater or lesser degree a prisoner of the automatism of the formal world. Q: Does a teacher appear in a (theosophical) group which already exists, or does he/she not? A: He may or he may not. He comes to fulfil a law. He may revalidate the working bases of a derelict group. Q: Why does he do this? A: In response to an inexorable need. Q: Does the group always recognose him? A: Certain people in general do. It will depend upon the apparatus of perception which they have. The onus on him is not primarily to preach, but to make himself available to the perception of the people. Q: Does he need the support of such groups? A: Both parties can benefit, because there is no such thing as solitary work. EVEN a derelict (theosophical group) can be producing semi- consciously a quantity of necessary force ('substance') which we might say goes waste unless it is correctly used. Q: How can we account for the dramatic rise of teachers who purport to have been 'called' to bring, for instance, spirituality to mankind? A: Do not generalise about this. One form is the result of physical laws. A group of people (ie. perhaps socalled theosophists) can engender necessary force (substance) already mentioned. (Added by Sufilight: This force could for instance be called 'promotion of the teaching'). They do not know what to do with it; they may not even really know what it is. An individual, who has another development analogous to their own, may contact this force (distance has no relevance here) and make use of it. Now we have the amusing and also tragic situation in which (a) force is raised by a certain group, (b) it is perceived and employed by someone else, (c) this temporarily reinforces, through vampirism, the 'teacher' who becomes prominent, (d) because of the similarity of this person with their own defective tradition (also sometimes called pseudo-theosophical teaching), the victim group think that he is their teacher, (e) they join him, not realising that he seems to be like them because he is using their own nutrition! (Note added by Sufilight: I can think of at least one theosophical teacher following this pattern. - - - Today this pattern is a nuisance and some Seekers do not realise this and they even follow a repetitous pattern. Ie. a pattern which is not relating itself to the Time, place, people involved and spiritual needs of the process) What you call a movement is part of an organic, natural development. It takes on a local colour because of the culture in which it grows (ie. also "the global planetary culture", which in a sense is local). It cannot be imported together with the local colouring. It may attain a certain degree of necessary force in its location, but its spread into other areas is conditional upon to vital factors: (1) That it takes root naturally and becomes naturalised in the fresh culture. (2) That there is a need for it in the new culture. The latter condition is operative only when there is a teacher, adequately comminsioned to provide a formulation in that area. ******* I might write more from the chapter later. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" To: Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 2:22 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: Greogory's biggest mistake in life > > Sunday, July 31, 2005 > > Re: Corresponding terms in all religions and philosophies > > > Dear Friend: > > In ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE HPB does this kind of comparison > and equivalence all the time. > > Antique THEOSOPHY is the permanent and basic root of all religions and > philosophies. > > To bring this home to modern research and thought HPB spent great time > tracing the historical roots of most of the great religions and also shows > how currently they still agree on basics. > > The Answers below are useful to us all. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > ----------------------------------- > > > -----Original Message----- > From: M. Sufilight > Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:45 AM > To: Subject: Re: Gregory's biggest mistake in life > > My views are: > > I have followed the recent exchanges of emails on the below topic. > > The following might be helpful to understand why I think that > almost all parties involved in exchanges of emails somehow has failed > to understand the theosophical teachings. > > > CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE ESOTERICAL AND THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS > > Q: What is the connection, if any, between the various methaphysical > and esoterical teachings? > > A: There are, in your terms, numerous connections. > > The important ones to note are: > > 1. The world is littered with the remnants of genuine theosophical > activities, whose actions has become vitiated or repetitious. These > remnants > sometimes call themselves genuine theosophical groups - even if they are > not. Somnetimes the even use the same name as the original teaching group > or > groups as if this will make their activities equally valid. > > 2. It is a natural law that teachings be renewed in conformity with the > place, TIME, people involved and spiritual needs of the process. (And not > the various individuals wants of the proces.) > > > Q: What form does the renewal take? > > A: Simply this. A Teacher, dedicated to a certain kind of function, > organizes and presents the teaching in a manner suitable to the conditions > just cited. > > > Q: Does this mean that traditional methaphysical and theosophical > teachings > which we find find represented in various countries are not now of any > real > function, because they represent survivals from a period when they > enshrined > real "work" ? > > A: That is so. > > > Q: But how much reality or function do such organisations now have? > > A: In your terms, these spiritual, psychological and other systems have > Three main components:- > > 1. The component of reality, which is ultimate truth, which is more or > less > locked in by the human formulator. > > 2. The component of decay, which is what has crept in at the point where > the > effort ceased to act truly, perhaps on the death of the formulator. > > 3. The component of outside appearence, which becomes after a time, > unwittingly, the main interest of the participants. > > This is the least useful but most attractive component. > > > I might later write the following pages of the chapter. > > ******* > > CUT > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Aug 01 05:49:28 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75963 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2005 12:49:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2005 12:49:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2005 12:49:27 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.47] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DzZjF-0004eu-Ih; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:49:17 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 05:49:01 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c59697$6aac44f0$2fdeb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <001201c5966b$3623a560$873c6b3e@khidr> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec797ba4027b3180a941bc5dbe45109e7746350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Gregory's biggest mistake in life X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=cdwJnRYE1MGAw5NMBYC3_f_vHXk-yF3tyItwz7JYNnTHAQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 August 1, 2005 Dear Friends: The subjoined comments appear in the main useful and correct. Let us however observe that THEOSOPHY is as old as Mankind.=20=20 It provides history, logic and an altruistic "Goal" that all can recognize, test and use if found to be valid. It is not "congregational." It does not seek numbers of "politically correct" adherents.=20 It seeks to keep the record of ancient Laws, Rules and objectives alive and prominent for those who seek them to find and use. Those who assist in this do not seek any recognition of followers. They present what they have discovered, honestly, accurately, and openly, having only respect for facts and not for individuals and their "opinions."=20 The principle is: "And that power the disciple shall covet is that which will make him appear as the least among men." {LIGHT ON THE PATH p. 4} THEOSOPHY provides its own validation. But to be able to know and use it the student/disciples have to study it. This aspect of the link is vital, since any advance or improvement in the nature, capacity and character of those who approach THEOSOPHY is self-generated. It is here that the motto of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to be invariably applied: "There is no Religion higher than TRUTH."=20 No amount of money, or public display of loyalty, and the following of rites, rituals and ceremonies (and altered texts) helps.=20 All the self-reform is interior and within the conscious intelligence (MIND= ) of each disciple. This is real "key to occultism." It is firmly grasped b= y every aspirant. Opening the 16th Chapter of the BHAGAVAD GITA, Sri Krishna says: "Fearlessness, sincerity, assiduity in devotion, generosity, self-restraint= , piety, and alms-givings, study, mortification, and rectitude; harmlessness, veracity, and freedom from anger, resignation, equanimity, and not speaking of the faults of others, universal compassion, modesty, and mildness; patience, power, fortitude, and purity, discretion, dignity, unrevengefulness, and freedom from conceit=AF these are the marks of him wh= ose virtues are of a godlike character, O son of Bharata.=20 Those, O son of Pritha, who are born with demoniacal dispositions are marke= d by hypocrisy, pride, anger, presumption, harshness of speech, and ignorance= . The destiny of those whose attributes are godlike is final liberation, whil= e those of demoniacal dispositions, born to the Asuras' lot, [suffer] continued bondage to mortal birth; grieve not."=20 It is for this reason that the THREE FUNDAMENTALS of THEOSOPHY are to be learned, tested, and applied to anything that is claimed to be theosophical or even non-theosophical.=20 For the mentally lazy and those who are "obtuse," Theosophy has nothing to offer. For those who are in search of TRUTH and the answers to the gaps of knowledge that our present-day education or erudition displays (in the sciences. academies and religious bodies everywhere) THEOSOPHY offers the HISTORY [S D I 267 top] of all antiquity and the cumulated research of the greatest Sages of the World -- it progenitors, supervisors and continuing mentors: The Masters of Wisdom. What are the BASICS ?=20 In the past 130 years we have still got "originals" of the TEXTS as well as photographic copies of those "originals," and, in addition, we have had these "originals" placed on Internet and CDs, so anyone can have and use them.=20=20 We have a catalog of laws, facts truths which anyone can verify - which demand no credulity and seek no "faith" or masses of "adherents." Everything rests upon a FOUNDATION. What of this does THEOSOPHY offer? If we were (all who are interested) to meet together at one of the ancient circular theatres where the "stage" is in the center we might expect to fin= d 1 In the center of the stage a Golden glow indicating the Ancient Lodge. We are not able to discern anyone clearly therein through that curtain of light. 2 At its rim (for us to see) are H P B, Olcott and Judge. They hold the "original writings and teachings of THEOSOPHY" in their hands. To them as assistants came Subba Row, Damodar, Jasper Niemand, the Keightleys, Mead, Crooks, Cleather, and others. 3 The rest of us - their students sit in the circular rows around that "Stage" 4 We all have got the same books available to us as they were originally written. Those who have and use them sit near the front facing the stage. Those who fail to study or use corrupted books and texts sit further back. 5 As we move around the seats and go towards the back we may note in this imaginary forum that not all have the original texts, or "foundation" books, or do not read or study them very often. They are responsible for their various "opinions," confusingly dispensed. 6 Some we note have substituted for the basic books, interpretations and manuals that " abbreviate" or "explain." And it is they who have decide= d to consider the authors of those altered texts as "authorities" valuable an= d sound, but, but they have not verified this for themselves. Their carelessness or laziness and lack of accuracy, is passed on and usually given great importance until such time as someone confronts it with facts and truths. By that time it is painful to have to retract and redefine one's so far well supported opinions. [In the world of Science, we find the Darwinists and those who foreshorten the vast periods of time needed for actual change and evolutionary development are at war with the facts of tim= e provided by current discoveries that indicate a far vaster antiquity for eras and events. It is a problem that has to do with the honesty and character of those involved. Not with the actual facts of discovery, which in some cases, we find have been suppressed or concealed -- as earlier hypotheses and theories are found progressively invalidated.] 7. The whole theatre cannot hold the rest of those interested in THEOSOPHY who have come to it through the agency of the books in Libraries, talks, the Media presentations, Internet and recordings on CDs. But this number has expanded the penetration of theosophical ideas and doctrines enormously.=20 And so on. As we continue our round we find that there are groups forming among those who attend where particular books (not necessarily the "originals") are and have been chosen for that community of members or students, for their selected study and attention. We also notice that the original organization the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY founded Nov. 17, 1875 in New York has become sub-divided. When HPB and Col= . Olcott moved to work in India at the beginning of 1879, it was Col. Olcott who declared that the Headquarters of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY would be wherever he resided. This was accepted (but no Resolution at the Original, Founding Society in New York was ever so passed). There is th reason and basis for a THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY that calls itself "International" and uses "Adyar" as a HQ. It has a number of National Sections, and many independent Branches and even independent THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETIES. [The London Lodge (President: Mr. A. P. Sinnett), and the T S Lodge in Edmonton, Canada, are an example of this kind of affiliated independence. Some Sections have been excommunicated by the Adyar H Q: The USA, Germany, Denmark, Canada, etc...] There is another THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY with branches in America, and elsewhere, that refers to "Pasadena" as their H Q. There is a dispersed an= d informal group that call themselves "associates of U L T," and while they have a number of independent Lodges and Study Groups, they have no "center.= " They employ the "Original Teachings of THEOSOPHY" as a basis for their common work and progressing study.=20 Notice ought to be made for comparison of current Magazines published by th= e various T S es. A comparison of their articles and contents reveals the nature of the force behind those efforts. Additionally several E-ZINES (Internet Magazines), such as THEOS-WORLD, AQUARIAN THEOSOPHIST, are being regularly issued. While this "situation report" is obviously brief, shortened and inaccurate in detail, it can give us something to think about. The main idea to dwell on I think is: "Am I studying "original" THEOSOPHY or am I studying something filtered by another's thoughts and ideas?=20 Best wishes,=20 Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: M. Sufilight Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:33 AM To:=20 Subject: Re: Gregory's biggest mistake in life Hallo all, My views are: Thanks to Dallas and other replies. And now we have: CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE ESOTERICAL AND THEOSOPHICAL TEACHINGS (PART 2) " Q: How is it known to the participants of such a group as to how accurate or meaningful their theosophical 'work' is? A: There are no two ways about it. Either it is known to their teacher, if one still exists, in which case he will remedy defects, and they will not be perpetuated. Or it is totally repetitious, and the effort has become an - administrative - one. This happen when there has been no true succession of teaching, so that there is nobody at the top sufficiently developed to be able to diagnose the situation. In this case the group has become to a greater or lesser degree a prisoner of the automatism of the formal world. Q: Does a teacher appear in a (theosophical) group which already exists, or= =20 does he/she not? A: He may or he may not. He comes to fulfil a law. He may revalidate the working bases of a derelict group. Q: Why does he do this? A: In response to an inexorable need. Q: Does the group always recognose him? A: Certain people in general do. It will depend upon the apparatus of perception which they have. The onus on him is not primarily to preach, but to make himself available to the perception of the people. Q: Does he need the support of such groups? A: Both parties can benefit, because there is no such thing as solitary work. EVEN a derelict (theosophical group) can be producing semi- consciously a quantity of necessary force ('substance') which we might say goes waste unless it is correctly used. Q: How can we account for the dramatic rise of teachers who purport to have been 'called' to bring, for instance, spirituality to mankind? A: Do not generalise about this. One form is the result of physical laws. A group of people (ie. perhaps socalled theosophists) can engender necessary force (substance) already mentioned. (Added by Sufilight: This force could for instance be called 'promotion of= =20 the teaching'). They do not know what to do with it; they may not even really know what it is. An individual, who has another development analogous to their own, may contact this force (distance has no relevance here) and make use of it.=20 Now we have the amusing and also tragic situation in which (a) force is raised by a certain group, (b) it is perceived and employed by someone else= , (c) this temporarily reinforces, through vampirism, the 'teacher' who becomes prominent, (d) because of the similarity of this person with their own defective tradition (also sometimes called pseudo-theosophical teaching), the victim group thin= k that he is their teacher, (e) they join him, not realising that he seems to be like them because he is using their own nutrition! (Note added by Sufilight: I can think of at least one theosophical teacher following this=20 pattern. - - - Today this pattern is a nuisance and some Seekers do not realise this and=20 They even follow a repetitous pattern. Ie. a pattern which is not relating itself=20 to the Time, place, people involved and spiritual needs of the process) What you call a movement is part of an organic, natural development. It takes on a local colour because of the culture in which it grows (ie. also "the global planetary culture", which in a sense is local). It cannot be imported together with the local colouring. It may attain a=20 Certain degree of necessary force in its location, but its spread into othe= r areas is conditional upon to vital factors: (1) That it takes root naturally and becomes naturalised in the fresh culture. (2) That there is a need for it in the new culture. The latter condition is operative only when there is a teacher, adequately comminsioned to provide a formulation in that area. ******* from M. Sufilight =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Re: Corresponding terms in all religions and philosophies Dear Friend: In ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE HPB does this kind of comparison and equivalence all the time. Antique THEOSOPHY is the permanent and basic root of all religions and philosophies.=20 To bring this home to modern research and thought HPB spent great time tracing the historical roots of most of the great religions, sciences and philosophies and also shows how currently they still agree on basics. =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Aug 01 10:56:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86338 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2005 17:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2005 17:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2005 17:56:52 -0000 Received: from [209.179.219.71] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DzeWI-0006Hx-ML; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 13:56:20 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:55:27 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c596c2$4d3a85f0$47dbb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <42ED054E.E3EC8C58@wisdomworld.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79b9b49695d8ee9c6a617c2fd9b9c8ab82350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: [theosophia] About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=-jfgj9F7yaKAVS_HmeR8bTzhKmmkyuMVnf7WUhpG9o8E3A X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Aug 1 2005 Dear John: Re: STEM CELLS, TWINNING, DUPLICATION, multiple births Using what we have learned from THEOSOPHY -- Lets think about Karma and the Astral plane and body on this. Modern physiology is using the physical visible cells and their contents to try to effect regeneration of failing cell structures, or to bring on by physiological means conceptions where Karmically -- under the normal proces= s of bodily self-restoration -- it may not be possible for the body to achiev= e the healing or the reproduction desires. It all starts with DESIRE and with the TANHAIC FEELING that a long life is desirable, and death is to be deferred for as long as possible, using any and every means.=20 Where are there errors? Karma, reincarnation, individual effects for deeds in past lives now manifesting at least 3 causes. These relate to the Monads of lesser experience who aggregate around a Monad to provide it with its personality in this life through which it progresses morally, ethically and intellectually.=20=20 Modern medicine knows little of this.=20=20 Students of THEOSOPHY are generally ignorant of medicine. And they do not know the ins and outs of the Astral or of Karma.=20 With modern drugs, etc. it is possible to evade many kinds of pain. Ask if this is always advisable. (Strange question : but if we evade pain this life are we likely to find it returning in a future one ? I don't know. ) If we prolong life now using med. Tech. Then what effect has that on future Karma ? Again I don't know. Reincarnation takes care of the fear of death (we don't fear sleep, as an example) Remains longevity in a sick incapacitated and ailing body -- but w= e are still uncertain and certainly the physical and personal is not reassure= d entirely. Healing and especially of cancer situations seems to be stalled no matter what is being tried as the human body is not a mere machine.=20 If Karma says it is to die, then efforts to preserve life are usually unsuccessful and also very stressful and even -- to the extent of torture -- to continue life in a physically disabled and disintegrating body.=20 We ought also to note that there is a disregard of the ethics and morality of the situation, patient and patient-doctor relationship. Some patients are, unknown to themselves, being used as parts of experiments designed to discover cures. If they are not carefully told of this it is a breach of morality.=20 Individual Karma may not always be exactly replicated in others. Our bodies are Karmically guided. Not machines with interchangeable parts.=20 Best wishes,=20 Dallas ------------------------------------------- =20 IS KARMA ONLY PUNISHMENT?=20 THE following query has been received from H.M.H.: "In August PATH Hadji Erinn, in reply to the above question, stated that 'those who have wealth, and the happy mother seeing all her children respected and virtuous, are favorites of Karma. I and others believe that these apparent favors are onl= y punishment or obstacles, and others think that the terms punishment and reward should not be used." I cannot agree with this view, nor with the suggestion that punishment and reward should not be used as terms. It is easy to reduce every thing to a primordial basis when one may say that all is the absolute. But such is onl= y the method of those who affirm and deny. They say there is no evil, there i= s no death; all is good, all is life. In this way we are reduced to absurdities, inasmuch as we then have no terms to designate very evident things and conditions. As well say there is no gold and no iron, because both are equally matter. While we continue to be human beings we must use terms that shall express our conscious perception of ideas and things. It is therefore quite proper to say that an unhappy or miserably circumstanced person is undergoing punishment, and that the wealthy or happ= y person is having reward. Otherwise there is no sense in our doctrine. The misunderstanding shown in the question is due to inaccurate thinking upon the subject of Karma. One branch of this law deals with the vicissitudes of life, with the differing states of men. One man has opportunity and happiness, another meets only the opposite. Why is this? It is because each state is the exact result bound to come from his having disturbed or preserved the harmony of nature. The person given wealth in this life is he who in the preceding incarnation suffered from its absence or had been deprived of it unjustly. What are we to call it but reward? If we say compensation, we express exactly the same idea. And we cannot get th= e world to adopt verbosity in speech so as to say, "All this is due to that man's having preserved the cosmic harmony." The point really in the questioners mind is, in fact, quite different from the one expressed; he has mistaken one for the other; he is thinking of the fact so frequently obtruded before us that the man who has the opportunity of wealth or power oft misuses it and becomes selfish or tyrannous. But thi= s does not alter the conclusion that he is having his reward. Karma will take care of him; and if he does not use the opportunity for the good of his fellows, or if he does evil to them, he will have punishment upon coming back again to earth. It is true enough, as Jesus said, that "it is difficul= t for the rich man to enter heaven," but there are other possessions of the man besides wealth that constitute greater obstacles to development, and they are punishments and may coexist in the life of one man with the reward of wealth or the like. I mean the obstruction and hindrance found in stupidity, or natural baseness, or in physical sensual tendencies. These ar= e more likely to keep him from progress and ultimate salvation than all the wealth or good luck that any one person ever enjoyed. In such cases--and they are not a few--we see Karmic reward upon the outer material plane in the wealth and propitious arrangement of life, and on the inner character the punishment of being unable or unfit through many defect= s of mind or nature. This picture can be reversed with equal propriety. I doubt if the questioner has devoted his mind to analyzing the subject in this manner. Every man, however, is endowed with conscience and the power to use his life, whatever its form or circumstance, in the proper way, so as to extrac= t from it all the good for himself and his fellows that his limitations of character will permit. It is his duty so to do, and as he neglects or obeys= , so will be his subsequent punishment or reward. There may also be another sort of wealth than mere gold, another sort of power than position in politics or society. The powerful, wide, all-embracing, rapidly-acting brain stored with knowledge is a vast possession which one man may enjoy. He can use it properly or improperly. I= t may lead him to excesses, to vileness, to the very opposite of all that is good. It is his reward for a long past life of stupidity followed by others of noble deeds and thoughts. What will the questioner do with this? The possessor thus given a reward may misuse it so as to turn it, next time he is born, into a source of punishment. We are thus continually fitting our arrows to the bow, drawing them back hard to the ear, and shooting them forth from us. When we enter the field of earth-life again, they will surel= y strike us or our enemies of human shape or the circumstances which otherwis= e would hurt us. It is not the arrow or the bow that counts, but the motive and the thought with which the missile is shot. HADJI ERINN Path, February, 1890 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D IS THE DESIRE TO "LIVE" SELFISH? Article by H. P. Blavatsky THE passage, "to Live, to Live, TO LIVE must be the unswerving resolve," occurring in the article on the ELIXIR OF LIFE, published in the March and April Numbers of Vol. III of the Theosophist, is often quoted, by superficial readers unsympathetic with the Theosophical Society, as an argument that the above teaching, of occultism is the most concentrated for= m of selfishness. In order to determine whether the critics are right or wrong, the meaning of the word "selfishness" must first be ascertained.=20 According to an established authority, selfishness is that "exclusive regar= d to one's own interest or happiness; that supreme self-love or self-preference which leads a person to direct his purposes to the advancement of his own interest, power, or happiness, without regarding those of others."=20 In short, an absolutely selfish individual is one who cares for himself and none else, or, in other words, one who is so strongly imbued with a sense o= f importance of his own personality that to him it is the acme of all his thoughts, desires and aspirations and beyond that all is a perfect blank. Now, can an occultist be then said to be "selfish" when he desires to live in the sense in which that word is used by the writer of the article on the ELIXIR OF LIFE?=20 It has been said over and over again that the ultimate end of every aspiran= t after occult knowledge is Nirvana or Mukti, when the individual, freed from all Mayavic Upadhi, becomes one with Paramatma, or the Son identifies himself with the Father in Christian phraseology. For that purpose, every veil of illusion which creates a sense of personal isolation, a feeling of separateness from THE ALL, must be torn asunder, or, in other words, the aspirant must gradually discard all sense of selfishness with which we are all more or less affected.=20 A study of the Law of Cosmic Evolution teaches us that the higher the evolution, the more does it tend towards Unity. In fact, Unity is the ultimate possibility of Nature, and those who through vanity and selfishnes= s go against her purposes, cannot but incur the punishment of total annihilation.=20 The Occultist thus recognises that unselfishness and a feeling of universal philanthropy are the inherent law of our being, and all he does is to attempt to destroy the chains of selfishness forged upon us by Maya.=20 The struggle then between Good and Evil, God and Satan, Suras and Asuras, Devas and Daityas, which is mentioned in the sacred books of all the nation= s and races, symbolizes the battle between unselfishness and the selfish impulses, which takes place in a man, who tries to follow the higher purposes of Nature, until the lower animal tendencies, created by selfishness, are completely conquered, and the enemy thoroughly routed and annihilated. It has also been often put forth in various theosophical and other occult writings that the only difference between an ordinary man who works along with Nature during the course of cosmic evolution and an occultist, is that the latter, by his superior knowledge, adopts such methods of training and discipline as will hurry on that process of evolution, and he thus reaches in a comparatively very short time that apex to ascend to which the ordinary individual may take perhaps billions of years. In short, in a few thousand years he approaches that form of evolution which ordinary humanity will attain to perhaps in the sixth or th= e seventh round during the process of Manvantara, i.e., cyclic progression. I= t is evident that the average man cannot become a MAHATMA in one life, or rather in one incarnation.=20 Now those, who have studied the occult teachings concerning Devachan and ou= r after-states, will remember that between two incarnations there is a considerable period of subjective existence. The greater the number of such Devachanic periods, the greater is the number of years over which this evolution is extended.=20 The chief aim of the occultist is therefore to so control himself as to be able to control his future states, and thereby gradually shorten the duration of his Devachanic states between his two incarnations. In his progress, there comes a time when, between one physical death and his next re-birth, there is no Devachan but a kind of spiritual sleep, the shock of death, having, so to say, stunned him into a state of unconsciousness from which he gradually recovers to find himself reborn, to continue his purpose= . The period of this sleep may vary from twenty-five to two hundred years, depending upon the degree of his advancement. But even this period may be said to be a waste of time, and hence all his exertions are directed to shorten its duration so as to gradually come to a point when the passage from one state of existence into another is almost imperceptible. This is his last incarnation, as it were, for the shock of death no more stuns him. This is the idea the writer of the article on the Elixir of Life means to convey, when he says:--=20 By or about the time when the Death-limit of his race is passed HE IS ACTUALLY DEAD, in the ordinary sense, that is to say, that he has relieved himself of all or nearly all such material particles as would have necessitated in disruption the agony of dying. He has been dying gradually the whole period of his Initiation. The catastrophe cannot happen twice over. He has only spread over a number of years the mild process of dissolution which others endure from a brief moment to a few hours. The highest Adept is in fact dead to, and absolutely unconscious of, the World--he is oblivious of its pleasures, careless of its miseries--in so fa= r as sentimentalism goes, for the stern sense of DUTY never leaves him blind to its very existence. . . .=20 The process of the emission and attraction of atoms, which the occultist controls, has been discussed at length in that article and in other writings. It is by these means that he gets rid gradually of all the old gross particles of his body, substituting for them finer and more ethereal ones, till at last the former sthula sarira is completely dead and disintegrated and he lives in a body entirely of his own creation, suited t= o his work.=20 That body is essential for his purposes, for, as the Elixir of Life says:--= =20 But to do good, as in every thing else, a man must have time and materials to work with, and this is a necessary means to the acquirement of powers by which infinitely more good can be done than without them. When these are once mastered, the opportunities to use them will arrive. . . .=20 In another place, in giving the practical instructions for that purpose, th= e same article says:=20 The physical man must be rendered more ethereal and sensitive; the mental man more penetrating and profound; the moral man more self-denying and philosophical.=20 The above important considerations are lost sight of by those who snatch away from the context the following passage in the same article:--=20 And from this account too, it will be perceptible how foolish it is for people to ask the Theosophists "to procure for them communication with the highest Adepts." It is with the utmost difficulty that one or two can be induced, even by the throes of a world, to injure their own progress by meddling with mundane affairs.=20 The ordinary reader will say--"This is not God-1ike. This is the acme of selfishness" . . . . But let him realise that a very high Adept, undertakin= g to reform the world, would necessarily have to once more submit to Incarnation. And is the result of all that have gone before in that line sufficiently encouraging to prompt a renewal of the attempt?=20 Now, in condemning the above passage as inculcating selfishness, superficia= l readers and thinkers lose sight of various important considerations. In the first place, they forget the other extracts already quoted which impose self-denial as a necessary condition of success, and which say that, with progress, new senses and new powers are acquired with which infinitely more good can be done than without them.=20 The more spiritual the Adept becomes, the less can he meddle with mundane, gross affairs and the more he has to confine himself to a spiritual work. I= t has been repeated, time out of number, that the work on a spiritual plane i= s as superior to the work on an intellectual plane as the one on the latter plane is superior to that on a physical plane.=20 The very high Adepts, therefore, do help humanity, but only spiritually: they are constitutionally incapable of meddling with worldly affairs. But this applies only to very high Adepts. There are various degrees of Adeptship, and those of each degree work for humanity on the planes to whic= h they may have risen. It is only the chelas that can live in the world, unti= l they rise to a certain degree. And it is because the Adepts do care for the world that they make their chelas live in and work for it, as many of those who study the subject are aware. Each cycle produces its own occultists who will be able to work for the humanity of those times on all the different planes; but when the Adepts foresee that at a particular period the then humanity will be incapable of producing occultists for work on particular planes, for such occasions they do provide by either giving up voluntarily their further progress and waiting in those particular degrees until humanity reaches that period, or by refusing to enter into Nirvana and submitting to re-incarnation in time to reach those degrees when humanity will require their assistance at that stage. And although the world may not be aware of the fact, yet there are even now certain Adepts who have preferred to remain statu quo and refuse to take the higher degrees, for th= e benefit of the future generations of humanity.=20 In short, as the Adepts work harmoniously, since unity is the fundamental law of their being, they have as it were made a division of labour, according to which each works on the plane at the time allotted to him, for the spiritual elevation of us all--and the process of longevity mentioned i= n the ELIXIR OF LIFE is only the means to the end which, far from being selfish, is the most unselfish purpose for which a human being can labour.= =20 H P B Theosophist, July, 1884=20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: On Behalf Of Compiler Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 10:07 AM To:=20 Subject:=20 About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Aug 01 16:55:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25910 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2005 23:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2005 23:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2005 23:55:05 -0000 Received: from [209.179.142.36] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dzk7O-0005VX-Re; Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:54:56 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:54:39 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c596f4$6764e7e0$47dbb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79697d3f0cb750fd38a96cdfca18c0561e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: [theosophia] About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=3i5h2GULlrSKWyXT-StUNwEE0k3lwtJ2lzjcVtkP4FiK_Q X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Aug 1 2005 Dear Jerry: As far as common sense says it is reasonable to use without taking undue advantage of that which current technology provides. And of course Karma i= s attached to that decision. The real question is: Why do we stay alive? What are we contributing positively to the world and the rest of humanity? I agree with the saying attributed to Jesus. If we live only for ourselves, or out of fear of death and the "great unknown," then the resulting Karma is different. I cannot find for myself and ability to think, any good reason to deny the continuity of the Monad (myself and others). As to the view that reality is the very narrow transaction of an evanescent and fleeting present I cannot see that it is entirely logical.=20 I find HPB saying in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE , p. 30 of the U L T Edn.: " Maya is the perceptive faculty of every Ego which considers itself a Unit separate from, and independent of the ONE infinite and eterna= l SAT, or "be-ness." What then is the Ego ? Again H P B writes: ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADVAITA --HPB Articles III, p. 265: "whether it be orthodox Adwaita or not, I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into Parabrahm, man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh Principle into Devachan (Swarga) after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and become part and parcel of the Monad. The personality fades out, disappearing befor= e the occurrence of the evolution of the new personality (rebirth) out of Devachan: but the individuality of the spirit-soul [dear, dear, what can be made out of this English!] is preserved to the end of the great cycle (Maha-Manwantara) when each Ego enters Paranirvana, or is merged in Parabrahm.=20 To our talpatic, or mole-like, comprehension the human spirit is then lost in the One Spirit, as the drop of water thrown into the sea can no longer b= e traced out and recovered. But de facto it is not so in the world of immaterial thought.=20 This latter stands in relation to the human dynamic thought, as, say, the visual power through the strongest conceivable microscope would to the sigh= t of a half-blind man: and yet even this is a most insufficient simile--the difference is "inexpressible in terms of foot-pounds."=20 That such Parabrahmic and Paranirvanic "spirits," or units, have and must preserve their divine (not human) individualities, is shown in the fact that, however long the "night of Brahma" or even the Universal Pralaya (not the local Pralaya affecting some one group of worlds) yet, when it ends, th= e same individual Divine Monad resumes its majestic path of evolution, though on a higher, hundredfold perfected and more pure chain of earths than before, and brings with it all the essence of compound spiritualities from its previous countless rebirths.=20 Spiral evolution, it must be remembered, is dual, and the path of spirituality turns, corkscrew-like, within and around physical, semi-physical, and supra-physical evolution. But I am being tempted into details which had best be left for the full consideration which their importance merits to my forthcoming work, the Secret Doctrine. " =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 H. P. BLAVATSKY Theosophist, January, 1886- -------------------------------------------------------- I recognize I am quoting doctrine, and the doctrine you have adopted (from one of the Buddhistic Schools) uses other terms and concepts of expressing them. But to me, while maya describes the eternal shifting of FORMS (composed of Monads of lesser experience) under the laws of Karma, this doe= s not dispel or obviate the ETERNAL MONAD that is my egoic base (nor that of any other =A1=B0Eternal Pilgrim.=A1=B1 ) HPB continues on p. 30 of Transactions:=20 =A1=B0Maya, illusion or ignorance =A1=ADawakens Nidanas; and the cause or c= auses having been produced, the effects follow according to Karmic law. Having then produced this cause, the whole discord of life follows immediately as an effect; in reality it is the endeavour of nature to restore harmony and maintain equilibrium.=A1=B1=20 As to "replaceable parts: I would say that in view of ever acting maya and due to the eternal exchange of atoms and molecules, such "parts" are son altered into compatible bases for sustaining cooperative life in our gross physical bodies. You speak of fear. True, the personality that has not reconciled the eternal puzzle of its existence and relation with the Higher Self and the Ego in man, has not logically provided itself with a reasonable basis for understanding its continuity -- and it does have a continuity -- call it a memory if you will, but he "good" that a man does ever remains as evidence that he lived then!, and lives now. In The KEY TO THEOSOPHY, HPB writes: "...memory is one thing and mind or thought is another; one is a recording machine, a register which very easily gets out of order; the other (thoughts) are eternal and imperishable. Would you refuse to believe in the existence of certain things or men only because your physical eyes have not seen them? Would not the collective testimony of past generations who have seen him be a sufficient guarantee that Julius Caesar once lived? Why shoul= d not the same testimony of the psychic senses of the masses be taken into consideration?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But don't you think that these are too fine distinctions to be accepted by the majority of mortals?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Say rather by the majority of materialists. And to them we say= , behold: even in the short span of ordinary existence, memory is too weak to register all the events of a lifetime. How frequently do even most importan= t events lie dormant in our memory until awakened by some association of ideas, or aroused to function and activity by some other link. This is especially the case with people of advanced age, who are always found suffering from feebleness of recollection. When, therefore, we remember tha= t which we know about the physical and the spiritual principles in man, it is not the fact that our memory has failed to record our precedent life and lives that ought to surprise us, but the contrary, were it to happen.=20 =20 WHY DO WE NOT REMEMBER OUR PAST LIVES? ENQUIRER. You have given me a bird's eye view of the seven principles; now how do they account for our complete loss of any recollection of having lived before?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Very easily. Since those "principles" which we call physical, and none of which is denied by science, though it calls them by other names= , * are disintegrated after death with their constituent elements, memory along with its brain, this vanished memory of a vanished personality, can neither remember nor record anything in the subsequent reincarnation of the EGO.=20 Reincarnation means that this Ego will be furnished with a new body, a new brain, and a new memory. Therefore it would be as absurd to expect this memory to remember that which it has never recorded as it would be idle to examine under a microscope a shirt never worn by a murderer, and seek on it for the stains of blood which are to be found only on the clothes he wore. It is not the clean shirt that we have to question, but the clothes worn during the perpetration of the crime; and if these are burnt and destroyed, how can you get at them?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Aye! how can you get at the certainty that the crime was ever committed at all, or that the "man in the clean shirt" ever lived before?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not by physical processes, most assuredly; nor by relying on the testimony of that which exists no longer. But there is such a thing as circumstantial evidence, since our wise laws accept it, more, perhaps, even than they should. To get convinced of the fact of re-incarnation and past lives, one must put oneself in rapport with one's real permanent Ego, not one's evanescent memory. ... =20 ENQUIRER. But how can people believe in that which they do not know, nor have ever seen, far less put themselves in rapport with it?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. If people, and the most learned, will believe in the Gravity, Ether, Force, and what not of Science, abstractions "and working hypotheses= , " which they have neither seen, touched, smelt, heard, nor tasted=A8D why should not other people believe, on the same principle, in one's permanent Ego, a far more logical and important "working hypothesis" than any other?= =20 =20 ENQUIRER. What is, finally, this mysterious eternal principle? Can you explain its nature so as to make it comprehensible to all?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. The EGO which re-incarnates, the individual and immortal =A8Dn= ot personal=A8D "I"; the vehicle, in short, of the Atma-Buddhic MONAD, that wh= ich is rewarded in Devachan and punished on earth, and that, finally, to which the reflection only of the Skandhas, or attributes, of every incarnation attaches itself. [There are five Skandhas or attributes in the Buddhist teachings: "Rupa (form or body), material qualities; Vedana, sensation; Sanna, abstract ideas; Samkhara, tendencies of mind; Vinnana, mental powers= . Of these we are formed; by them we are conscious of existence; and through them communicate with the world about us."] =20 ENQUIRER. What do you mean by Skandhas?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Just what I said: "attributes," among which is memory, all of which perish like a flower, leaving behind them only a feeble perfume. Here is another paragraph from H. S. Olcott's "Buddhist Catechism"=A8o which bea= rs directly upon the subject. It deals with the question as follows:=A8D=20 "The aged man remembers the incidents of his youth, despite his being physically and mentally changed. Why, then, is not the recollection of past lives brought over by us from our last birth into the present birth? Becaus= e memory is included within the Skandhas, and the Skandhas having changed wit= h the new existence, a memory, the record of that particular existence, develops. Yet the record or reflection of all the past lives must survive, for when Prince Siddhartha became Buddha, the full sequence of His previous births were seen by Him. . . . and any one who attains to the state of Jhan= a can thus retrospectively trace the line of his lives."=20 This proves to you that while the undying qualities of the personality=A8D such as love, goodness, charity, etc.=A8D attach themselves to the immorta= l Ego, photographing on it, so to speak, a permanent image of the divine aspect of the man who was, his material Skandhas (those which generate the most marked Karmic effects) are as evanescent as a flash of lightning, and cannot impress the new brain of the new personality; yet their failing to d= o so impairs in no way the identity of the re-incarnating Ego.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Do you mean to infer that that which survives is only the Soul-memory, as you call it, that Soul or Ego being one and the same, while nothing of the personality remains?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not quite; something of each personality, unless the latter wa= s an absolute materialist with not even a chink in his nature for a spiritual ray to pass through, must survive, as it leaves its eternal impress on the incarnating permanent Self or Spiritual Ego. [ Or the Spiritual, in contradistinction to the personal Self. The student must not confuse this Spiritual Ego with the "HIGHER SELF" which is Atma, the God within us, and inseparable from the Universal Spirit.] ...=20 The personality with its Skandhas is ever changing with every new birth. It is, as said before, only the part played by the actor (the true Ego) for on= e night. This is why we preserve no memory on the physical plane of our past lives, though the real "Ego" has lived them over and knows them all.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Then how does it happen that the real or Spiritual man does not impress his new personal "I" with this knowledge?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. How is it that the servant-girls in a poor farm-house could speak Hebrew and play the violin in their trance or somnambulic state, and knew neither when in their normal condition? Because, as every genuine psychologist of the old, not your modern, school, will tell you, the Spiritual Ego can act only when the personal Ego is paralysed. The Spiritua= l "I" in man is omniscient and has every knowledge innate in it; while the personal self is the creature of its environment and the slave of the physical memory. Could the former manifest itself uninterruptedly, and without impediment, there would be no longer men on earth, but we should al= l be gods.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Still there ought to be exceptions, and some ought to remember.=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. And so there are. But who believes in their report? Such sensitives are generally regarded as hallucinated hysteriacs, as crack-brained enthusiasts, or humbugs, by modern materialism. Let them read= , however, works on this subject pre-eminently "Reincarnation, a Study of Forgotten Truth" by E. D. Walker, F. T. S., and see in it the mass of proof= s which the able author brings to bear on this vexed question.=20 One speaks to people of soul, and some ask "What is Soul?" "Have you ever proved its existence?" Of course it is useless to argue with those who are materialists. But even to them I would put the question: "Can you remember what you were or did when a baby? Have you preserved the smallest recollection of your life, thoughts, or deeds, or that you lived at all during the first eighteen months or two years of your existence? Then why not deny that you have ever lived as a babe, on the same principle?" When t= o all this we add that the reincarnating Ego, or individuality, retains durin= g the Devachanic period merely the essence of the experience of its past earth-life or personality, the whole physical experience involving into a state of in potentia, or being, so to speak, translated into spiritual formulae; when we remember further that the term between two rebirths is said to extend from ten to fifteen centuries, during which time the physica= l consciousness is totally and absolutely inactive, having no organs to act through, and therefore no existence, the reason for the absence of all remembrance in the purely physical memory is apparent.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. You just said that the SPIRITUAL EGO was omniscient. Where, then, is that vaunted omniscience during his Devachanic life, as you call it?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. During that time it is latent and potential, because, first of all, the Spiritual Ego (the compound of Buddhi-Manas) is not the HIGHER SELF, which being one with the Universal Soul or Mind is alone omniscient; and, secondly, because Devachan is the idealized continuation of the terrestrial life just left behind, a period of retributive adjustment, and = a reward for unmerited wrongs and sufferings undergone in that special life.= =20 It is omniscient only potentially in Devachan, and de facto exclusively in Nirvana, when the Ego is merged in the Universal Mind-Soul. Yet it rebecome= s quasi omniscient during those hours on earth when certain abnormal conditions and physiological changes in the body make the Ego free from the trammels of matter.=20 Thus the examples cited above of somnambulists, a poor servant speaking Hebrew, and another playing the violin, give you an illustration of the cas= e in point. This does not mean that the explanations of these two facts offered us by medical science have no truth in them, for one girl had, year= s before, heard her master, a clergyman, read Hebrew works aloud, and the other had heard an artist playing a violin at their farm.=20 But neither could have done so as perfectly as they did had they not been ensouled by THAT which, owing to the sameness of its nature with the Universal Mind, is omniscient. Here the higher principle acted on the Skandhas and moved them; in the other, the personality being paralysed, the individuality manifested itself. Pray do not confuse the two. =20 ON INDIVIDUALITY AND PERSONALITY *=20 ENQUIRER. But what is the difference between the two? I confess that I am still in the dark. Indeed it is just that difference, then, that you cannot impress too much on our minds. =20 * Even in his Buddhist Catechism, Col. Olcott, forced to it by the logic o= f Esoteric philosophy, found himself obliged to correct the mistakes of previous Orientalists who made no such distinction, and gives the reader hi= s reasons for it. Thus he says: "The successive appearances upon the earth, o= r 'descents into generation,' of the tanhaically coherent parts (Skandhas) of a certain being, are a succession of personalities. In each birth the PERSONALITY differs from that of a previous or next succeeding birth. Karma= , the DEUS EX MACHINA, masks (or shall we say reflects?) itself now in the personality of a sage, again as an artisan, and so on throughout the string of births. But though personalities ever shift, the one line of life along which they are strung, like beads, runs unbroken; it is ever that particula= r line, never any other. It is therefore individual, an individual vital undulation, which began in Nirvana, or the subjective side of nature, as th= e light or heat undulation through aether began at its dynamic source; is careering through the objective side of nature under the impulse of Karma and the creative direction of Tanha (the unsatisfied desire for existence); and leads through many cyclic changes back to Nirvana. Mr. Rhys-Davids call= s that which passes from personality to personality along the individual chai= n 'character,' or 'doing.' Since 'character' is not a mere metaphysical abstraction, but the sum of one's mental qualities and moral propensities, would it not help to dispel what Mr. Rhys-Davids calls 'the desperate expedient of a mystery' (Buddhism, p. 101) if we regarded the life-undulation as individuality, and each of its series of natal manifestations as a separate personality? The perfect individual, Buddhistically speaking, is a Buddha, I should say; for Buddha is but the rare flower of humanity, without the least supernatural admixture. And as countless generations ('four asankheyyas and a hundred thousand cycles,' Fausboll and Rhys-Davids' BUDDHIST BIRTH STORIES, p. 13) are required to develop a man into a Buddha, and the iron will to become one runs throughou= t all the successive births, what shall we call that which thus wills and perseveres? Character? One's individuality: an individuality but partly manifested in any one birth, but built up of fragments from all the births?= " (Bud. Cat., Appendix A. 137.) [Key pp. 126 - 134] Now this is long enough, I hope it puts my points clearer. Best wishes,=20 Dallas =20 -----Original Message----- From: Gerald=20 Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 1:19 PM To:=20 Subject: About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics Well I suppose I might as well put in my two cents here. DTB Modern physiology is using the physical visible cells and their contents to try to effect regeneration of failing cell structures, or to bring on b= y physiological means conceptions where Karmically -- under the normal process of bodily self-restoration -- it may not be possible for the body to achieve the healing or the reproduction desires.=20 GS Dal, in my own opinion I don't see any difference in using stem cells or aspirin. I have heart failure. My life is currently being sustained by heart medications that I take each day. My wife has a laundry list of physical problems and her life is also being sustained by daily pills. If left alone, we would have both died some years ago. So viv la medicine. I like modern medicine., but I do not care much for the medical model which is a one-size-fits-all model. DTB It all starts with DESIRE and with the TANHAIC FEELING that a long life is desirable, and death is to be deferred for as long as possible, using any and every means.=20 GS Why do we eat food? Is it not to sustain life? Why bother to breath? Is it not to sustain life? What is the difference between eating a salad and eating a pill? Both are chemicals that combine in the body and do things to sustain the body. We avoid meat if we think that it is bad for us, and we eat salads if we think that they are good for us. It is all a matter of belief. Jesus said that what comes out of our mouth is more important that what goes into it. I think that he was right. DTB Karma, reincarnation, individual effects for deeds in past lives now manifesting at least 3 causes. These relate to the Monads of lesser experience who aggregate around a Monad to provide it with its personality in this life through which it progresses morally, ethically and intellectually.=20=20 GS If you want to believe in past lives and so on, then you are free to do so. Your "monads of lesser experience" are mayavic illusions, but if you want to worry about them and so on, you are free to do so. I see no difference between bodies, organs, cells, atoms, and monads. Any differences are purely intellectual hair-splitting.=20 DTB Modern medicine knows little of this. >> GS To which I wonder, so what? DTB Students of THEOSOPHY are generally ignorant of medicine. And they do not know the ins and outs of the Astral or of Karma.=20 GS Ignorance is no excuse. Or is it? CUT From ringding@online.de Mon Aug 01 20:44:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95717 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2005 03:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2005 03:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.183) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2005 03:44:53 -0000 Received: from p54BF8E95.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.142.149] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKxQS-1Dznhq2DQJ-0007Ls; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 05:44:42 +0200 Message-ID: <000d01c59714$b884d3e0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: <001101c596f4$6764e7e0$47dbb3d1@DALLAS> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 05:46:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.183 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [theosophia] About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=isWrd_q6NrVfrLhDhD5CvBeAvfF0o15nLvouXn6H7qfphFr8TSTeAhM3fQ X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer ==>Again H P B writes: ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADVAITA --HPB Articles III, p. 265: "whether it be orthodox Adwaita or not, I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into Parabrahm, man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. Dear Dallas, I have heard, that HPB's term Paranirvana is a misspelling and should be wrote Parinirvana instead. Frank From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Aug 02 07:40:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13262 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2005 14:40:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2005 14:40:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web33414.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.206.146) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2005 14:40:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 73802 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Aug 2005 14:40:18 -0000 Message-ID: <20050802144018.73800.qmail@web33414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.21.100] by web33414.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 07:40:18 PDT Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:40:18 -0700 (PDT) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 68.142.206.146 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "D. Caldwell" Subject: Hinduism: 26 Recommended Titles X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=Lu_0y2BrPPabDmhgZvCABdQsgh0XSdzPI6dbQBHUGsQ3rXtd1lAl3Ma0 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Hinduism -- Introductions, Anthologies, Dictionaries & Other Resources: 26 Recommended Titles See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/hinduism/hinduismbooks1.htm These titles constitute a core library of books on the subject of Hinduism. See also recommended titles on other subjects at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/index.htm#bookstore Daniel Blavatsky Study Center Blavatsky Bookstore http://blavatskyarchives.com thls othls ltls From david-blankenship@comcast.net Tue Aug 02 08:15:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: david-blankenship@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61433 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2005 15:15:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2005 15:15:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc13.comcast.net) (63.240.76.28) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2005 15:15:08 -0000 Received: from 204.127.205.144 ([204.127.205.144]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc13) with SMTP id <2005080214373701300qcafje>; Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:37:37 +0000 Received: from [67.187.182.83] by 204.127.205.144; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:37:37 +0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:37:37 +0000 Message-Id: <080220051437.17986.42EF852F0004DEB80000464222007348409F07089C020A05020E040DD30B07900E0B@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Dec 17 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: ZGF2aWQtYmxhbmtlbnNoaXBAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 63.240.76.28 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: david-blankenship@comcast.net Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [theosophia] About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=161088079; y=RXG9viNDB9WYlJHx3dK62ilK0T7nWcl8yvBZ2RnDKrvblJyIHg Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is difficult to see where karma would apply. The bill in the Hous= e and Senate concerns non-viable eggs that would be destroyed anyway. Ther= e is a concern that fertility clinics would make extra eggs for the harvest= ing of stems cells, but that objection could be addressed in the bill. Som= e people have an objection to any use of these cells, but it is difficult t= o see since the law allows the use of organ donations of brain dead people = and same reasoning would seem to apply. Perhaps some one could explain it = to the group. David B. -------------- Original message --------------=20 > Aug 1 2005=20 >=20 > Dear Jerry:=20 >=20 > As far as common sense says it is reasonable to use without taking undue= =20 > advantage of that which current technology provides. And of course Karma = is=20 > attached to that decision.=20 >=20 > The real question is: Why do we stay alive? What are we contributing=20 > positively to the world and the rest of humanity? I agree with the saying= =20 > attributed to Jesus.=20 >=20 > If we live only for ourselves, or out of fear of death and the "great=20 > unknown," then the resulting Karma is different.=20 >=20 > I cannot find for myself and ability to think, any good reason to deny th= e=20 > continuity of the Monad (myself and others).=20 >=20 > As to the view that reality is the very narrow transaction of an evanesce= nt=20 > and fleeting present I cannot see that it is entirely logical.=20 >=20 > I find HPB saying in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE , p. 30 of the U= =20 > L T Edn.: " Maya is the perceptive faculty of every Ego which considers=20 > itself a Unit separate from, and independent of the ONE infinite and eter= nal=20 > SAT, or "be-ness."=20 >=20 > What then is the Ego ?=20 >=20 > Again H P B writes: ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADVAITA --HPB Articles=20 > III, p. 265:=20 >=20 > "whether it be orthodox Adwaita or not, I maintain as an occultist, on th= e=20 > authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into=20 > Parabrahm, man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its=20 > distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it of= =20 > the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the= =20 > highest faculties of the Manas.=20 >=20 > The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every=20 > personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh Principle into Devachan (Swarga= )=20 > after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and becom= e=20 > part and parcel of the Monad. The personality fades out, disappearing bef= ore=20 > the occurrence of the evolution of the new personality (rebirth) out of=20 > Devachan: but the individuality of the spirit-soul [dear, dear, what can = be=20 > made out of this English!] is preserved to the end of the great cycle=20 > (Maha-Manwantara) when each Ego enters Paranirvana, or is merged in=20 > Parabrahm.=20 >=20 > To our talpatic, or mole-like, comprehension the human spirit is then los= t=20 > in the One Spirit, as the drop of water thrown into the sea can no longer= be=20 > traced out and recovered. But de facto it is not so in the world of=20 > immaterial thought.=20 > This latter stands in relation to the human dynamic thought, as, say, the= =20 > visual power through the strongest conceivable microscope would to the si= ght=20 > of a half-blind man: and yet even this is a most insufficient simile--the= =20 > difference is "inexpressible in terms of foot-pounds."=20 >=20 > That such Parabrahmic and Paranirvanic "spirits," or units, have and must= =20 > preserve their divine (not human) individualities, is shown in the fact=20 > that, however long the "night of Brahma" or even the Universal Pralaya (n= ot=20 > the local Pralaya affecting some one group of worlds) yet, when it ends, = the=20 > same individual Divine Monad resumes its majestic path of evolution, thou= gh=20 > on a higher, hundredfold perfected and more pure chain of earths than=20 > before, and brings with it all the essence of compound spiritualities fro= m=20 > its previous countless rebirths.=20 >=20 > Spiral evolution, it must be remembered, is dual, and the path of=20 > spirituality turns, corkscrew-like, within and around physical,=20 > semi-physical, and supra-physical evolution. But I am being tempted into= =20 > details which had best be left for the full consideration which their=20 > importance merits to my forthcoming work, the Secret Doctrine. "=20 >=20 > H. P. BLAVATSKY=20 > Theosophist, January, 1886-=20 > --------------------------------------------------------=20 >=20 > I recognize I am quoting doctrine, and the doctrine you have adopted (fro= m=20 > one of the Buddhistic Schools) uses other terms and concepts of expressin= g=20 > them. But to me, while maya describes the eternal shifting of FORMS=20 > (composed of Monads of lesser experience) under the laws of Karma, this d= oes=20 > not dispel or obviate the ETERNAL MONAD that is my egoic base (nor that o= f=20 > any other =A1=B0Eternal Pilgrim.=A1=B1 )=20 >=20 > HPB continues on p. 30 of Transactions:=20 >=20 > =A1=B0Maya, illusion or ignorance =A1=ADawakens Nidanas; and the cause or= causes=20 > having been produced, the effects follow according to Karmic law. Having= =20 > then produced this cause, the whole discord of life follows immediately a= s=20 > an effect; in reality it is the endeavour of nature to restore harmony an= d=20 > maintain equilibrium.=A1=B1=20 >=20 > As to "replaceable parts: I would say that in view of ever acting maya an= d=20 > due to the eternal exchange of atoms and molecules, such "parts" are son= =20 > altered into compatible bases for sustaining cooperative life in our gros= s=20 > physical bodies.=20 >=20 > You speak of fear. True, the personality that has not reconciled the=20 > eternal puzzle of its existence and relation with the Higher Self and the= =20 > Ego in man, has not logically provided itself with a reasonable basis for= =20 > understanding its continuity -- and it does have a continuity -- call it = a=20 > memory if you will, but he "good" that a man does ever remains as evidenc= e=20 > that he lived then!, and lives now.=20 >=20 > In The KEY TO THEOSOPHY, HPB writes:=20 >=20 > "...memory is one thing and mind or thought is another; one is a recordin= g=20 > machine, a register which very easily gets out of order; the other=20 > (thoughts) are eternal and imperishable. Would you refuse to believe in t= he=20 > existence of certain things or men only because your physical eyes have n= ot=20 > seen them? Would not the collective testimony of past generations who hav= e=20 > seen him be a sufficient guarantee that Julius Caesar once lived? Why sho= uld=20 > not the same testimony of the psychic senses of the masses be taken into= =20 > consideration?=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. But don't you think that these are too fine distinctions to be= =20 > accepted by the majority of mortals?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. Say rather by the majority of materialists. And to them we s= ay,=20 > behold: even in the short span of ordinary existence, memory is too weak = to=20 > register all the events of a lifetime. How frequently do even most import= ant=20 > events lie dormant in our memory until awakened by some association of=20 > ideas, or aroused to function and activity by some other link. This is=20 > especially the case with people of advanced age, who are always found=20 > suffering from feebleness of recollection. When, therefore, we remember t= hat=20 > which we know about the physical and the spiritual principles in man, it = is=20 > not the fact that our memory has failed to record our precedent life and= =20 > lives that ought to surprise us, but the contrary, were it to happen.=20 >=20 >=20 > WHY DO WE NOT REMEMBER OUR PAST LIVES?=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. You have given me a bird's eye view of the seven principles; no= w=20 > how do they account for our complete loss of any recollection of having=20 > lived before?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. Very easily. Since those "principles" which we call physical= ,=20 > and none of which is denied by science, though it calls them by other nam= es,=20 > * are disintegrated after death with their constituent elements, memory=20 > along with its brain, this vanished memory of a vanished personality, can= =20 > neither remember nor record anything in the subsequent reincarnation of t= he=20 > EGO.=20 >=20 > Reincarnation means that this Ego will be furnished with a new body, a ne= w=20 > brain, and a new memory. Therefore it would be as absurd to expect this=20 > memory to remember that which it has never recorded as it would be idle t= o=20 > examine under a microscope a shirt never worn by a murderer, and seek on = it=20 > for the stains of blood which are to be found only on the clothes he wore= .=20 > It is not the clean shirt that we have to question, but the clothes worn= =20 > during the perpetration of the crime; and if these are burnt and destroye= d,=20 > how can you get at them?=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. Aye! how can you get at the certainty that the crime was ever=20 > committed at all, or that the "man in the clean shirt" ever lived before?= =20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. Not by physical processes, most assuredly; nor by relying on= =20 > the testimony of that which exists no longer. But there is such a thing a= s=20 > circumstantial evidence, since our wise laws accept it, more, perhaps, ev= en=20 > than they should. To get convinced of the fact of re-incarnation and past= =20 > lives, one must put oneself in rapport with one's real permanent Ego, not= =20 > one's evanescent memory. ...=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. But how can people believe in that which they do not know, nor= =20 > have ever seen, far less put themselves in rapport with it?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. If people, and the most learned, will believe in the Gravity= ,=20 > Ether, Force, and what not of Science, abstractions "and working hypothes= es,=20 > " which they have neither seen, touched, smelt, heard, nor tasted=A8D why= =20 > should not other people believe, on the same principle, in one's permanen= t=20 > Ego, a far more logical and important "working hypothesis" than any other= ?=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. What is, finally, this mysterious eternal principle? Can you=20 > explain its nature so as to make it comprehensible to all?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. The EGO which re-incarnates, the individual and immortal =A8= Dnot=20 > personal=A8D "I"; the vehicle, in short, of the Atma-Buddhic MONAD, that = which=20 > is rewarded in Devachan and punished on earth, and that, finally, to whic= h=20 > the reflection only of the Skandhas, or attributes, of every incarnation= =20 > attaches itself. [There are five Skandhas or attributes in the Buddhist=20 > teachings: "Rupa (form or body), material qualities; Vedana, sensation;=20 > Sanna, abstract ideas; Samkhara, tendencies of mind; Vinnana, mental powe= rs.=20 > Of these we are formed; by them we are conscious of existence; and throug= h=20 > them communicate with the world about us."]=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. What do you mean by Skandhas?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. Just what I said: "attributes," among which is memory, all o= f=20 > which perish like a flower, leaving behind them only a feeble perfume. He= re=20 > is another paragraph from H. S. Olcott's "Buddhist Catechism"=A8o which b= ears=20 > directly upon the subject. It deals with the question as follows:=A8D=20 >=20 > "The aged man remembers the incidents of his youth, despite his being=20 > physically and mentally changed. Why, then, is not the recollection of pa= st=20 > lives brought over by us from our last birth into the present birth? Beca= use=20 > memory is included within the Skandhas, and the Skandhas having changed w= ith=20 > the new existence, a memory, the record of that particular existence,=20 > develops. Yet the record or reflection of all the past lives must survive= ,=20 > for when Prince Siddhartha became Buddha, the full sequence of His previo= us=20 > births were seen by Him. . . . and any one who attains to the state of Jh= ana=20 > can thus retrospectively trace the line of his lives."=20 >=20 > This proves to you that while the undying qualities of the personality=A8= D=20 > such as love, goodness, charity, etc.=A8D attach themselves to the immort= al=20 > Ego, photographing on it, so to speak, a permanent image of the divine=20 > aspect of the man who was, his material Skandhas (those which generate th= e=20 > most marked Karmic effects) are as evanescent as a flash of lightning, an= d=20 > cannot impress the new brain of the new personality; yet their failing to= do=20 > so impairs in no way the identity of the re-incarnating Ego.=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. Do you mean to infer that that which survives is only the=20 > Soul-memory, as you call it, that Soul or Ego being one and the same, whi= le=20 > nothing of the personality remains?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. Not quite; something of each personality, unless the latter = was=20 > an absolute materialist with not even a chink in his nature for a spiritu= al=20 > ray to pass through, must survive, as it leaves its eternal impress on th= e=20 > incarnating permanent Self or Spiritual Ego. [ Or the Spiritual, in=20 > contradistinction to the personal Self. The student must not confuse this= =20 > Spiritual Ego with the "HIGHER SELF" which is Atma, the God within us, an= d=20 > inseparable from the Universal Spirit.] ...=20 >=20 > The personality with its Skandhas is ever changing with every new birth. = It=20 > is, as said before, only the part played by the actor (the true Ego) for = one=20 > night. This is why we preserve no memory on the physical plane of our pas= t=20 > lives, though the real "Ego" has lived them over and knows them all.=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. Then how does it happen that the real or Spiritual man does not= =20 > impress his new personal "I" with this knowledge?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. How is it that the servant-girls in a poor farm-house could= =20 > speak Hebrew and play the violin in their trance or somnambulic state, an= d=20 > knew neither when in their normal condition? Because, as every genuine=20 > psychologist of the old, not your modern, school, will tell you, the=20 > Spiritual Ego can act only when the personal Ego is paralysed. The Spirit= ual=20 > "I" in man is omniscient and has every knowledge innate in it; while the= =20 > personal self is the creature of its environment and the slave of the=20 > physical memory. Could the former manifest itself uninterruptedly, and=20 > without impediment, there would be no longer men on earth, but we should = all=20 > be gods.=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. Still there ought to be exceptions, and some ought to remember.= =20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. And so there are. But who believes in their report? Such=20 > sensitives are generally regarded as hallucinated hysteriacs, as=20 > crack-brained enthusiasts, or humbugs, by modern materialism. Let them re= ad,=20 > however, works on this subject pre-eminently "Reincarnation, a Study of=20 > Forgotten Truth" by E. D. Walker, F. T. S., and see in it the mass of pro= ofs=20 > which the able author brings to bear on this vexed question.=20 >=20 > One speaks to people of soul, and some ask "What is Soul?" "Have you ever= =20 > proved its existence?" Of course it is useless to argue with those who ar= e=20 > materialists. But even to them I would put the question: "Can you remembe= r=20 > what you were or did when a baby? Have you preserved the smallest=20 > recollection of your life, thoughts, or deeds, or that you lived at all=20 > during the first eighteen months or two years of your existence? Then why= =20 > not deny that you have ever lived as a babe, on the same principle?" When= to=20 > all this we add that the reincarnating Ego, or individuality, retains dur= ing=20 > the Devachanic period merely the essence of the experience of its past=20 > earth-life or personality, the whole physical experience involving into a= =20 > state of in potentia, or being, so to speak, translated into spiritual=20 > formulae; when we remember further that the term between two rebirths is= =20 > said to extend from ten to fifteen centuries, during which time the physi= cal=20 > consciousness is totally and absolutely inactive, having no organs to act= =20 > through, and therefore no existence, the reason for the absence of all=20 > remembrance in the purely physical memory is apparent.=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. You just said that the SPIRITUAL EGO was omniscient. Where, the= n,=20 > is that vaunted omniscience during his Devachanic life, as you call it?=20 >=20 > THEOSOPHIST. During that time it is latent and potential, because, first = of=20 > all, the Spiritual Ego (the compound of Buddhi-Manas) is not the HIGHER=20 > SELF, which being one with the Universal Soul or Mind is alone omniscient= ;=20 > and, secondly, because Devachan is the idealized continuation of the=20 > terrestrial life just left behind, a period of retributive adjustment, an= d a=20 > reward for unmerited wrongs and sufferings undergone in that special life= .=20 >=20 > It is omniscient only potentially in Devachan, and de facto exclusively i= n=20 > Nirvana, when the Ego is merged in the Universal Mind-Soul. Yet it rebeco= mes=20 > quasi omniscient during those hours on earth when certain abnormal=20 > conditions and physiological changes in the body make the Ego free from t= he=20 > trammels of matter.=20 >=20 > Thus the examples cited above of somnambulists, a poor servant speaking=20 > Hebrew, and another playing the violin, give you an illustration of the c= ase=20 > in point. This does not mean that the explanations of these two facts=20 > offered us by medical science have no truth in them, for one girl had, ye= ars=20 > before, heard her master, a clergyman, read Hebrew works aloud, and the=20 > other had heard an artist playing a violin at their farm.=20 >=20 > But neither could have done so as perfectly as they did had they not been= =20 > ensouled by THAT which, owing to the sameness of its nature with the=20 > Universal Mind, is omniscient. Here the higher principle acted on the=20 > Skandhas and moved them; in the other, the personality being paralysed, t= he=20 > individuality manifested itself. Pray do not confuse the two.=20 >=20 >=20 > ON INDIVIDUALITY AND PERSONALITY *=20 >=20 > ENQUIRER. But what is the difference between the two? I confess that I am= =20 > still in the dark. Indeed it is just that difference, then, that you cann= ot=20 > impress too much on our minds.=20 >=20 > * Even in his Buddhist Catechism, Col. Olcott, forced to it by the logic = of=20 > Esoteric philosophy, found himself obliged to correct the mistakes of=20 > previous Orientalists who made no such distinction, and gives the reader = his=20 > reasons for it. Thus he says: "The successive appearances upon the earth,= or=20 > 'descents into generation,' of the tanhaically coherent parts (Skandhas) = of=20 > a certain being, are a succession of personalities. In each birth the=20 > PERSONALITY differs from that of a previous or next succeeding birth. Kar= ma,=20 > the DEUS EX MACHINA, masks (or shall we say reflects?) itself now in the= =20 > personality of a sage, again as an artisan, and so on throughout the stri= ng=20 > of births. But though personalities ever shift, the one line of life alon= g=20 > which they are strung, like beads, runs unbroken; it is ever that particu= lar=20 > line, never any other. It is therefore individual, an individual vital=20 > undulation, which began in Nirvana, or the subjective side of nature, as = the=20 > light or heat undulation through aether began at its dynamic source; is=20 > careering through the objective side of nature under the impulse of Karma= =20 > and the creative direction of Tanha (the unsatisfied desire for existence= );=20 > and leads through many cyclic changes back to Nirvana. Mr. Rhys-Davids ca= lls=20 > that which passes from personality to personality along the individual ch= ain=20 > 'character,' or 'doing.' Since 'character' is not a mere metaphysical=20 > abstraction, but the sum of one's mental qualities and moral propensities= ,=20 > would it not help to dispel what Mr. Rhys-Davids calls 'the desperate=20 > expedient of a mystery' (Buddhism, p. 101) if we regarded the=20 > life-undulation as individuality, and each of its series of natal=20 > manifestations as a separate personality? The perfect individual,=20 > Buddhistically speaking, is a Buddha, I should say; for Buddha is but the= =20 > rare flower of humanity, without the least supernatural admixture. And as= =20 > countless generations ('four asankheyyas and a hundred thousand cycles,'= =20 > Fausboll and Rhys-Davids' BUDDHIST BIRTH STORIES, p. 13) are required to= =20 > develop a man into a Buddha, and the iron will to become one runs through= out=20 > all the successive births, what shall we call that which thus wills and=20 > perseveres? Character? One's individuality: an individuality but partly=20 > manifested in any one birth, but built up of fragments from all the birth= s?"=20 > (Bud. Cat., Appendix A. 137.) [Key pp. 126 - 134]=20 >=20 > Now this is long enough, I hope it puts my points clearer.=20 >=20 > Best wishes,=20 >=20 > Dallas=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: Gerald=20 > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 1:19 PM=20 > To:=20 > Subject: About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics=20 >=20 > Well I suppose I might as well put in my two cents here.=20 >=20 > DTB Modern physiology is using the physical visible cells and their=20 > contents=20 > to try to effect regeneration of failing cell structures, or to bring on = by=20 > physiological means conceptions where Karmically -- under the normal=20 > process of bodily self-restoration -- it may not be possible for the body= =20 > to=20 > achieve the healing or the reproduction desires.=20 >=20 > GS=20 > Dal, in my own opinion I don't see any difference in using stem cells or= =20 > aspirin. I have heart failure. My life is currently being sustained by=20 > heart medications that I take each day. My wife has a laundry list of=20 > physical problems and her life is also being sustained by daily pills. If= =20 > left alone, we would have both died some years ago. So viv la medicine. I= =20 > like modern medicine., but I do not care much for the medical model which= =20 > is a one-size-fits-all model.=20 >=20 >=20 > DTB It all starts with DESIRE and with the TANHAIC FEELING that a long=20 > life is desirable, and death is to be deferred for as long as possible,=20 > using any=20 > and every means.=20 >=20 > GS=20 > Why do we eat food? Is it not to sustain life? Why bother to breath? Is i= t=20 > not to sustain life? What is the difference between eating a salad and=20 > eating a pill? Both are chemicals that combine in the body and do things = to=20 > sustain the body. We avoid meat if we think that it is bad for us, and we= =20 > eat salads if we think that they are good for us. It is all a matter of=20 > belief. Jesus said that what comes out of our mouth is more important tha= t=20 > what goes into it. I think that he was right.=20 >=20 >=20 > DTB Karma, reincarnation, individual effects for deeds in past lives=20 > now=20 > manifesting at least 3 causes. These relate to the Monads of lesser=20 > experience who aggregate around a Monad to provide it with its personalit= y=20 > in this life through which it progresses morally, ethically and=20 > intellectually.=20 >=20 > GS=20 > If you want to believe in past lives and so on, then you are free to do s= o.=20 > Your "monads of lesser experience" are mayavic illusions, but if you want= =20 > to worry about them and so on, you are free to do so. I see no difference= =20 > between bodies, organs, cells, atoms, and monads. Any differences are=20 > purely intellectual hair-splitting.=20 >=20 >=20 > DTB Modern medicine knows little of this. >>=20 >=20 > GS=20 > To which I wonder, so what?=20 >=20 >=20 > DTB Students of THEOSOPHY are generally ignorant of medicine. And they=20 > do not know the ins and outs of the Astral or of Karma.=20 >=20 > GS=20 > Ignorance is no excuse. Or is it?=20 >=20 > CUT=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Yahoo! Groups Links=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From compiler@wisdomworld.org Tue Aug 02 11:38:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5869 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2005 18:37:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2005 18:37:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ams002.ftl.affinity.com) (216.219.253.98) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2005 18:37:56 -0000 Received: from [69.251.45.208] ([69.251.45.208]:10758 "EHLO wisdomworld.org") by ams002.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id S384168AbVHBShn (ORCPT ); Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:37:43 -0400 Message-ID: <42EFCB79.75657D2@wisdomworld.org> Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:37:28 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <42ED0327.EB6BE94C@wisdomworld.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 216.219.253.98 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Compiler Subject: Re: Theos-World About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585; y=msTSiQpz3IZ_jVtjeZCk8zr8c-YI01TFCLQ-zfFtOgG52ckX4yYk X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld This is just a P.S., a 1-paragraph continuation: Based on some responses in some of the forums that I posted the below message in, I want everyone to know that in no way, shape or form was the idea of getting the stem cells from ABORTIONS in my mind. The only things in my mind were whatever all the many other ways that stem cells, or any other related and needed body substances, may be collected from women. =============================== Compiler wrote: > About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics > > The thoughts that I offer below came to me > only about a half an hour ago when watching > TV and the subject of ethics, as usual, > concerning the use of stem cells to help > people who are suffering with so many major > diseases, came up here in the United States. > > Even though I leave it to others to maybe > bring the subject up in different public forums, > based on my starting-idea suggestions, > simply to maybe get it all going, by those > who are maybe capable to do so, as well as > commenting on it in these theosophical > forums, as usual, I will not be responding > to anyone, but will simply read all that is > said about it. > > OK, what popped into my mind was that > since Reincarnation is believed in by about > 35 to 40 percent of the American people > (based on figures I saw some time in the past > year or two, but which I can't remember where > or when I read this), which percentage-wise > means, if these figures are more or less > true, that many Christians also believe in > Reincarnation, that it might be worth trying > to get into the national and international media > and political dialogue a conversation about > the following things that also came to my > mind (just some raw thoughts, just some > starting ideas, for everyone to expand on > in the many ways possible): > > If Reincarnation is true, or at least believed > to be true by so many people, this means > that it would be more ethical to use these > stem cells to help so many suffering people > who are already here, than to not use them > because of the thinking that the use of them > are destroying lives not yet born. Why? > Because if Reincarnation is the natural > process, then no thinking human being, > life, or soul is destroyed, but they simply > can't re-enter the scene, if that is in any > way the dynamic, through the specific > very tiny body parts that are stem cells that > may have been associated with their return, > but will simply get naturally drawn, either > immediately, and both still by the laws > of karma, or cause and effect, to another > mother, or will simply have to wait a little > while longer to re-enter this plane. > > So based on these few ideas, and to me at > least, since I'm one of the many who believe > in Reincarnation at this point in my life, it is > highly, I repeat, highly, unethical to allow any > of us who are already on the physical plane > scene to suffer more than necessary by > refusing to allow both stem cell research, > and the use of them, to enter the medical > scene in a 100% way. > > That's it. Good, bad, useful, or otherwise, that's > my little contribution to my fellow theosophists > to consider in all the theosophical forums that > I post in. If any of you see something in this, > as far as it maybe being a major subject to > skillfully get into the public dialogue, if any of > you can, grab the ball and run with it. If it's just > a stupid and unrealistic idea, and not really > worth putting to constructive use in the stem > cell battle, as well as bringing one of the > main theosophical teachings, which is > Reincarnation, into this particular stem cell > discussion that grips the nation, so be it. > I did my best and honestly presented some > thoughts that came to me out of the blue. > > Finally, since this posting is completely > different than my monthly postings, I won't > present any particular article, articles, or > series of articles from my web site in this > top section, but will simply end the way > I do in each of my monthly posting with > everything that is below the double line. > > Yours truly in Universal Brotherhood, > > John DeSantis > ================================== > > Dear newcomers to Theosophy: > > I sincerely do hope that my web site offers > a well-rounded overall view of Theosophy and > the Theosophical Movement. The 3 main links > to everything on it are found below. > > Please know that I'm only the compiler of > all the articles found on my web site; I'm > not a scholar; and also that I personally > do not like to take part in conversations, > even though I do hope that what I present > from time to time will help a little in > the discussions being carried on by others. > So please do not be insulted when I do not > respond if someone addresses me, or addresses > anything that is found in any of the articles > on my web site; I leave that for others to > deal with if they want to -- whether pro, con, > neutral, friendly or unfriendly. > > John DeSantis > (Compiler) > ------- > > You may find a great deal of the Truth that you > are searching for here: > > WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): > http://www.wisdomworld.org > > This is the Index page of the "Introductory", > "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially > compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: > http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html > > The page where "Additional" articles are slowly > being added (which contains 18 sections that > can each be clicked on at the top of the page > in order to go directly down to them, as well > as to get the link to any particular section > that you may want to use in a posting on a > discussion board, or in an e-mail to someone): > http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html > > "PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT FORUM": > This next link is to the most updated version of my > economic proposal to humanity, a practical project > to help our suffering world that I also consider > to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and > unique, but mostly unknown, economic system > model that might be able to put an end to involuntary > poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully > finance everything of importance that is needed > in every nation. Because of this it's well worth > pointing to. Please note that, for strategic > reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance > of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, > no matter what their religious, philosophical, > and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a > completely different web site; it contains > no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and > the Theosophical Movement that is presented > on my WisdomWorld.org web site: > http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org > > ------- > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 02 17:18:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27991 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2005 00:18:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2005 00:18:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2005 00:18:01 -0000 Received: from [209.179.147.15] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E06x7-00072S-2t; Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:17:52 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:17:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01c597c0$c3526880$0f93b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <080220051437.17986.42EF852F0004DEB80000464222007348409F07089C020A05020E040DD30B07900E0B@comcast.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f0dc7c7e5cbdfee8b90e2781603761d1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [theosophia] About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=rFJtQovQeDRa-3OtStJRKOCOm-aVGsQIE1X_KMVH4qZeBA X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Aug 2 2005 RE: Karma AS I understand it, Karma is universal.=20=20 These aphorisms explain the Theosophical teachings thereon. There is nothin= g that escapes the purview of continual Karmic adjustment. Further, there ar= e other planes than merely the physical which are involved in Karma: the emotional, psychic, mental and discriminative/wise. Every atom or cell in the Universe is an independent/dependent Unit, and Karma links it to all th= e rest and to each of us. In this case it may be good to ask (speculate on) what is the motive of eac= h of the parties involved.=20 I don't think apologies or partial explanations and theories open any "escape hatches" for responsibility. It is the INTUITIVE SELF inside of each of us that senses responsibility, and the cooperative interactive unit= y of all.=20 THEOSOPHY covers far more than the mere physical, and the moral philosophy of the present is not attuned to th practical concept of immortal Beings (Monads) undergoing self-imposed, self-improvement course over millions of years -- necessitating reincarnation. In our current life we are apparentl= y walled around by the concepts of materialism, and it is difficult to allow our minds to transcend these using a logic that deems them to be most basic to the totality of life. -------------------------------- (1) There is no Karma unless there is a being to make it or feel its effects. (2) Karma is the adjustment of effects flowing from causes, during which th= e being upon whom and through whom that adjustment is effected experiences pain or pleasure. (3) Karma is an undeviating and unerring tendency in the Universe to restor= e equilibrium, and it operates incessantly. (4) The apparent stoppage of this restoration to equilibrium is due to the necessary adjustment of disturbance at some other spot, place, or focus which is visible only to the Yogi, to the Sage, or the perfect Seer: there is therefore no stoppage, but only a hiding from view. (5) Karma operates on all things and beings from the minutest conceivable atom to Brahma. Proceeding in the three worlds men, gods, and the elemental beings, no spot in the manifested universe is exempt from its sway. (6) Karma is not subject to time, and therefore he who knows what is the ultimate division of time in this Universe knows Karma. (7) For all other men Karma is in its essential nature unknown and unknowable. (8) But its action may be known by calculation from cause to effect; and this calculation is possible because the effect is wrapped up in and is not succedent to the cause. (9) The Karma of this earth is the combination of the acts and thoughts of all beings of every grade which were concerned in the preceding Manvantara or evolutionary stream from which ours flows. (10) And as those beings include Lords of Power and Holy Men, as well as weak and wicked ones, the period of the earth's duration is greater than that of any entity or race upon it. (11) Because the Karma of this earth and its races began in a past too far back for human minds to reach, an inquiry into its beginning is useless and profitless. (12) Karmic causes already set in motion must be allowed to sweep on until exhausted, but this permits no man to refuse to help his fellows and every sentient being. (13) The effects may be counteracted or mitigated by the thoughts and acts of oneself or of another, and then the resulting effects represent the combination and interaction of the whole number of causes involved in producing the effects. (14) In the life of worlds, races, nations, and individuals, Karma cannot act unless there is an appropriate instrument provided for its action. (15) And until such appropriate instrument is found, that Karma related to it remains unexpended. (16) While a man is experiencing Karma in the instrument provided, his othe= r unexpended Karma is not exhausted through other beings or means, but is hel= d reserved for future operation; and lapse of time during which no operation of that Karma is felt causes no deterioration in its force or change in its nature. (17) The appropriateness of an instrument for the operation of Karma consists in the exact connection and relation of the Karma with the body, mind, intellectual and psychical nature acquired for use by the Ego in any life. (18) Every instrument used by any Ego in any life is appropriate to the Karma operating through it. (19) Changes may occur in the instrument during one life so as to make it appropriate for a new class of Karma, and this may take place in two ways: (a) through intensity of thought and the power of a vow, and (b) through natural alterations due to complete exhaustion of old causes. (20) As body and mind and soul have each a power of independent action, any one of these may exhaust, independently of the others, some Karmic causes more remote from or nearer to the time of their inception than those operating through other channels. (21) Karma is both merciful and just. Mercy and Justice are only opposite poles of a single whole; and Mercy without Justice is not possible in the operations of Karma. That which man calls Mercy and Justice is defective, errant, and impure. (22) Karma may be of three sorts: (a) presently operative in this life through the appropriate instruments; (b) that which is being made or stored up to be exhausted in the future; Karma held over from past life or lives and not operating yet because inhibited by inappropriateness of the instrument in use by the Ego, or by the force of Karma now operating. (23) Three fields of operation are used in each being by Karma: (a) the bod= y and the circumstances; (b) the mind and intellect; the psychic and astral planes. (24) Held-over Karma or present Karma may each, or both at once, operate in all of the three fields of Karmic operation at once, or in either of those fields a different class of Karma from that using the others may operate at the same time. (25) Birth into any sort of body and to obtain the fruits of any sort of Karma is due to the preponderance of the line of Karmic tendency. (26) The sway of Karmic tendency will influence the incarnation of an Ego, or any family of Egos, for three lives at least, when measures of repression, elimination, or counteraction are not adopted. (27) Measures taken by an Ego to repress tendency, eliminate defects, and t= o counteract by setting up different causes, will alter the sway of Karmic tendency and shorten its influence in accordance with the strength or weakness of the efforts expended in carrying out the measures adopted. (28) No man but a sage or true seer can judge another's Karma. Hence while each receives his deserts, appearances may deceive, and birth into Poverty or heavy trial may not be punishment for bad Karma, for Egos continually incarnate into poor surroundings where they experience difficulties and trials which are for the discipline of the Ego and result in strength, fortitude, and sympathy. ..... (Path, March, 1893 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Best wishes,=20 Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: david-blankenship Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:38 AM To:=20 Subject: About The Use Of Stem Cells / Reincarnation / Ethics It is difficult to see where karma would apply. The bill in the Hous= e and Senate concerns non-viable eggs that would be destroyed anyway. There is a concern that fertility clinics would make extra eggs for the harvestin= g of stems cells, but that objection could be addressed in the bill. Some people have an objection to any use of these cells, but it is difficult to see since the law allows the use of organ donations of brain dead people an= d same reasoning would seem to apply. Perhaps some one could explain it to the group. David B. -------------- Original message --------------=20 Aug 1 2005=20 =20 Dear Jerry:=20 =20 As far as common sense says it is reasonable to use without taking undue=20 advantage of that which current technology provides. And of course Karma i= s attached to that decision.=20 =20 The real question is: Why do we stay alive? What are we contributing=20 positively to the world and the rest of humanity? I agree with the saying= =20 attributed to Jesus.=20 =20 If we live only for ourselves, or out of fear of death and the "great=20 unknown," then the resulting Karma is different.=20 =20 I cannot find for myself and ability to think, any good reason to deny the= =20 continuity of the Monad (myself and others).=20 =20 As to the view that reality is the very narrow transaction of an evanescen= t and fleeting present I cannot see that it is entirely logical.=20 =20 I find HPB saying in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE , p. 30 f the U=20 L T Edn.: " Maya is the perceptive faculty of every Ego which considers=20 itself a Unit separate from, and independent of the ONE infinite and eternal=20 SAT, or "be-ness."=20 =20 What then is the Ego ?=20 =20 Again H P B writes: ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADVAITA --HPB Articles=20 III, p. 265:=20 =20 "whether it be orthodox Adwaita or not, I maintain as an occultist, on the= =20 authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into=20 Parabrahm, man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its=20 distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it of= =20 the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the= =20 highest faculties of the Manas.=20 =20 The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every=20 personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh Principle into Devachan (Swarga)= =20 after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and become= =20 part and parcel of the Monad. The personality fades out, disappearing before=20 the occurrence of the evolution of the new personality (rebirth) out of=20 Devachan: but the individuality of the spirit-soul [dear, dear, what can b= e made out of this English!] is preserved to the end of the great cycle=20 (Maha-Manwantara) when each Ego enters Paranirvana, or is merged in=20 Parabrahm.=20 =20 To our talpatic, or mole-like, comprehension the human spirit is then lost= =20 in the One Spirit, as the drop of water thrown into the sea can no longer be=20 traced out and recovered. But de facto it is not so in the world of=20 immaterial thought.=20 This latter stands in relation to the human dynamic thought, as, say, the= =20 visual power through the strongest conceivable microscope would to the sight=20 of a half-blind man: and yet even this is a most insufficient simile--the= =20 difference is "inexpressible in terms of foot-pounds."=20 =20 That such Parabrahmic and Paranirvanic "spirits," or units, have and must= =20 preserve their divine (not human) individualities, is shown in the fact=20 that, however long the "night of Brahma" or even the Universal Pralaya (no= t the local Pralaya affecting some one group of worlds) yet, when it ends, the=20 same individual Divine Monad resumes its majestic path of evolution, thoug= h on a higher, hundredfold perfected and more pure chain of earths than=20 before, and brings with it all the essence of compound spiritualities from= =20 its previous countless rebirths.=20 =20 Spiral evolution, it must be remembered, is dual, and the path of=20 spirituality turns, corkscrew-like, within and around physical,=20 semi-physical, and supra-physical evolution. But I am being tempted into=20 details which had best be left for the full consideration which their=20 importance merits to my forthcoming work, the Secret Doctrine. "=20 =20 H. P. BLAVATSKY=20 Theosophist, January, 1886-=20 --------------------------------------------------------=20 =20 I recognize I am quoting doctrine, and the doctrine you have adopted (from= =20 one of the Buddhistic Schools) uses other terms and concepts of expressing= =20 them. But to me, while maya describes the eternal shifting of FORMS=20 (composed of Monads of lesser experience) under the laws of Karma, this does=20 not dispel or obviate the ETERNAL MONAD that is my egoic base (nor that of= =20 any other =A1=B0Eternal Pilgrim.=A1=B1 )=20 =20 HPB continues on p. 30 of TRANSACTIONS:=20 =20 "Maya, illusion or ignorance =A1=ADawakens Nidanas; and the cause or cause= s=20 having been produced, the effects follow according to Karmic law. Having=20 then produced this cause, the whole discord of life follows immediately as= =20 an effect; in reality it is the endeavour of nature to restore harmony and= =20 maintain equilibrium." As to "replaceable parts: I would say that in view of ever acting maya and= =20 due to the eternal exchange of atoms and molecules, such "parts" are son=20 altered into compatible bases for sustaining cooperative life in our gross= =20 physical bodies.=20 =20 You speak of fear. True, the personality that has not reconciled the=20 eternal puzzle of its existence and relation with the Higher Self and the= =20 Ego in man, has not logically provided itself with a reasonable basis for= =20 understanding its continuity -- and it does have a continuity -- call it a= =20 memory if you will, but he "good" that a man does ever remains as evidence= =20 that he lived then!, and lives now.=20 =20 In The KEY TO THEOSOPHY, HPB writes:=20 =20 "...memory is one thing and mind or thought is another; one is a recording= =20 machine, a register which very easily gets out of order; the other=20 (thoughts) are eternal and imperishable. Would you refuse to believe in th= e existence of certain things or men only because your physical eyes have no= t seen them? Would not the collective testimony of past generations who have= =20 seen him be a sufficient guarantee that Julius Caesar once lived? Why should=20 not the same testimony of the psychic senses of the masses be taken into=20 consideration?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But don't you think that these are too fine distinctions to be=20 accepted by the majority of mortals?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Say rather by the majority of materialists. And to them we say,=20 behold: even in the short span of ordinary existence, memory is too weak t= o register all the events of a lifetime. How frequently do even most important=20 events lie dormant in our memory until awakened by some association of=20 ideas, or aroused to function and activity by some other link. This is=20 especially the case with people of advanced age, who are always found=20 suffering from feebleness of recollection. When, therefore, we remember that=20 which we know about the physical and the spiritual principles in man, it is= =20 not the fact that our memory has failed to record our precedent life and=20 lives that ought to surprise us, but the contrary, were it to happen.=20 =20 =20 WHY DO WE NOT REMEMBER OUR PAST LIVES?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. You have given me a bird's eye view of the seven principles; now= =20 how do they account for our complete loss of any recollection of having=20 lived before?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Very easily. Since those "principles" which we call physical,= =20 and none of which is denied by science, though it calls them by other names,=20 are disintegrated after death with their constituent elements, memory=20 along with its brain, this vanished memory of a vanished personality, can= =20 neither remember nor record anything in the subsequent reincarnation of th= e EGO.=20 =20 Reincarnation means that this Ego will be furnished with a new body, a new= =20 brain, and a new memory. Therefore it would be as absurd to expect this=20 memory to remember that which it has never recorded as it would be idle to= =20 examine under a microscope a shirt never worn by a murderer, and seek on i= t for the stains of blood which are to be found only on the clothes he wore.= =20 It is not the clean shirt that we have to question, but the clothes worn=20 during the perpetration of the crime; and if these are burnt and destroyed= , how can you get at them?=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Aye! how can you get at the certainty that the crime was ever=20 committed at all, or that the "man in the clean shirt" ever lived before?= =20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not by physical processes, most assuredly; nor by relying on= =20 the testimony of that which exists no longer. But there is such a thing as= =20 circumstantial evidence, since our wise laws accept it, more, perhaps, eve= n than they should. To get convinced of the fact of re-incarnation and past= =20 lives, one must put oneself in rapport with one's real permanent Ego, not= =20 one's evanescent memory. ...=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But how can people believe in that which they do not know, nor=20 have ever seen, far less put themselves in rapport with it?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. If people, and the most learned, will believe in the Gravity,= =20 Ether, Force, and what not of Science, abstractions "and working hypotheses,=20 " which they have neither seen, touched, smelt, heard, nor tasted=A8D why= =20 should not other people believe, on the same principle, in one's permanent= =20 Ego, a far more logical and important "working hypothesis" than any other?= =20 =20 ENQUIRER. What is, finally, this mysterious eternal principle? Can you=20 explain its nature so as to make it comprehensible to all?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. The EGO which re-incarnates, the individual and immortal not= =20 Personal =A8D "I"; the vehicle, in short, of the Atma-Buddhic MONAD, that which=20 is rewarded in Devachan and punished on earth, and that, finally, to which= =20 the reflection only of the Skandhas, or attributes, of every incarnation=20 attaches itself. [There are five Skandhas or attributes in the Buddhist=20 teachings: "Rupa (form or body), material qualities; Vedana, sensation;=20 Sanna, abstract ideas; Samkhara, tendencies of mind; Vinnana, mental powers.=20 Of these we are formed; by them we are conscious of existence; and through= =20 them communicate with the world about us."]=20 =20 ENQUIRER. What do you mean by Skandhas?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Just what I said: "attributes," among which is memory, all of= =20 which perish like a flower, leaving behind them only a feeble perfume. Her= e is another paragraph from H. S. Olcott's "Buddhist Catechism"=A8o which be= ars directly upon the subject. It deals with the question as follows:=A8D=20 =20 "The aged man remembers the incidents of his youth, despite his being=20 physically and mentally changed. Why, then, is not the recollection of pas= t lives brought over by us from our last birth into the present birth? Because=20 memory is included within the Skandhas, and the Skandhas having changed with the new existence, a memory, the record of that particular existence, develops. Yet the record or reflection of all the past lives must survive,= =20 for when Prince Siddhartha became Buddha, the full sequence of His previou= s births were seen by Him. . . . and any one who attains to the state of Jhana=20 can thus retrospectively trace the line of his lives."=20 =20 This proves to you that while the undying qualities of the personality=A8D= =20 such as love, goodness, charity, etc.=A8D attach themselves to the immorta= l=20 Ego, photographing on it, so to speak, a permanent image of the divine=20 aspect of the man who was, his material Skandhas (those which generate the= =20 most marked Karmic effects) are as evanescent as a flash of lightning, and= =20 cannot impress the new brain of the new personality; yet their failing to do=20 so impairs in no way the identity of the re-incarnating Ego.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Do you mean to infer that that which survives is only the=20 Soul-memory, as you call it, that Soul or Ego being one and the same, whil= e nothing of the personality remains?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not quite; something of each personality, unless the latter was=20 an absolute materialist with not even a chink in his nature for a spiritua= l ray to pass through, must survive, as it leaves its eternal impress on the= =20 incarnating permanent Self or Spiritual Ego. [ Or the Spiritual, in=20 contradistinction to the personal Self. The student must not confuse this= =20 Spiritual Ego with the "HIGHER SELF" which is Atma, the God within us, and= =20 inseparable from the Universal Spirit.] ...=20 =20 CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Aug 03 03:17:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34009 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2005 10:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2005 10:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2005 10:17:21 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.113] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1E0GJ0-0000ks-1a; Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:17:16 -0400 To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:16:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c59814$78b828b0$71deb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <20050802.115523.1404.7.ultinla@juno.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec797c7dca0e01c863e01573521b1486e652350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: The real seership MEDITATION X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=xPF8TzvW1IQutbSHO8PlInxUUITue3CVe2EdHmOlRtjVoQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aug 3 2005 =20 Dear Friends: =20 RE: The real seership MEDITATION =20 =20 This may be of some help? =20 =20 As to Meditation:=20=20 =20 Some thoughts and ideas on trying to learn how to meditate =20 ------------------------------ =20 WHY IS LITTLE KNOWN ABOUT MEDITATION ? =20 As in most things, concerning which there seems to be little general knowledge, we ought to seek for the definitions that are around us. Theosophy has a specific definition, as the meditation technique is one that a student uses to learn about himself and nature. =20 =20 MEDITATION IS A DAILY AND LIFE-LONG EFFORT. =20 The first consideration to employ is to consider the indwelling Monad [Buddhi-Manas] is an immortal SPIRITUAL entity living at present in a vesture of material flesh, blood and skin. The vesture is continually changing, but the interior SPIRIT/SOUL is permanent and immovable. It is th= e PERCEIVER. =20 Second It [the Monad] is an integral part of the eternal Universe. Its "birth" and its "death" coincides with the birth and death of the Universe. As such, it never "dies." =20 Third Every capacity and power inherent in the UNIVERSE resides in potenc= y within each Monad. But it needs to be educed and brought forward for use b= y individual self-effort and assiduous practice. The Mind embodied in man's form is the active agent for this transformation.=20 =20 Four These potencies and power that are universal, are invariably cooperative and interactive as VIRTUES. [Virtues may be designated as: charity, compassion, generosity, and a refusal to subjugate anyone for any reason, unrevengefulness, sincerity, honesty, desirelessness, and a total lack of lust, anger, desire for fame, or to acquire others' possessions.] =20 Five these virtues are to be understood and made the basis of our incarnated life. This includes our thoughts and desires. =20 Six Vice and evil are distortions of the TRUE and the SPIRITUAL. An exaggerated virtue becomes a vice. The secret lies in tolerance, self discipline and moderation. The ideal is to be able to act for others' sake= , not selfishly in any way. =20 Seven the practical Theosophist is a "magician" who has grasped every aspect of the operation of the Universe and understood the relation between each Monad and all the rest, as well as of the WHOLE. This can be accurately expressed as UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD.=20 =20 Theosophy considers every human being is a Soul (mind), and is an "Eternal Pilgrim." The mind principle (called Manas) is that which stores the thoughts of all our lives. The total quantity of life-thoughts makes the stream of our life's meditation -- or that upon which ou