From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Fri Jul 01 00:53:07 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40069 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2005 07:53:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2005 07:53:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.36) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2005 07:53:06 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2005 07:53:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.79] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2005 07:53:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 07:53:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <149c01c57a6e$5b56e5e0$152ca8c0@thebeast> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2509 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.36 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Theos-World Friends in Mental Plane X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=tIhuGgaF-ObEy4UHQnS9CsBIOOza_OD5TZa3PX2sTBzS_KeD X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz >> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > What is that for an idiotic poppycock? > Fairy tales for hysterical, non-thinking male and female aunts. It doesn't look like valueable kind of refutation. Though HPB gave no such teaching, yet the idea about ego acting through the thoughtforms doesn't contradict it and may be taken as a hypothesis, untill it shall be replaced by a better one. HPB wrote: "The Devachanee lives its intermediate cycle between two incarnations surrounded by everything it had aspired to in vain, and in the companionship of everyone it loved on earth. ... Q. But this is more than simple delusion, it is an existence of insane hallucinations! A. From your standpoint it may be, not so from that of philosophy. Besides which, is not our whole terrestrial life filled with such delusions?" (Key to Theosophy) Devachanic existence really is no more an illusion than our earthly existence, but most of us would agree that the latter gives us the useful experience needed for our evolution. Now, as according to HPB average devachanic state lasts more that 1000 years and we pass most of our time there, it is impossible that we passed all that time quite in vain. There should be no obsolete parts in nature, and devachanees and their thoughtforms, (for the quotation suggests the idea of thoughtforms), seem to be exactly such obsolete and idle parts, unless we admit that they undergo some evolution. The proposed idea with ego acting in thoughtform as far as the perfectness of the form permits it seems quite reasonable for it provides fastest possible evolution for all egos involved, and also explains HOW the devachan is not more illusion than a physical life. Wee see the thoughtforms of our friends according to our ideas about them, and their egos can act through them while it conforms our notions about them, so they cannot hurt us, yet they can do for us anything good that we permit. The ego in devachan cannot communicate with the earth plane, as HPB rightly remarks, but it doesn't interfere it to communicate on its own plane - in that extent which its own illusions permit. The thoughtforms seem to be the natural filter for this action. We have such a filter on the physical plane, it's our body imposed by our physical karma, so why there can't be a similar filter created by other kind of our karma? There are no proof for this theory, yet it seems to me quite plausible untill the better one will be proposed. From ringding@online.de Fri Jul 01 00:55:02 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14432 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2005 07:55:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2005 07:55:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.171) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2005 07:55:01 -0000 Received: from p54BF8D2B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.141.43] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKxQS-1DoGMW2Ym0-0004pI; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:55:00 +0200 Message-ID: <006301c57e12$45b247f0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:55:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.171 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World The Jewish origin of Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=GPLGHTBd8eUJBz-G5oxMz4Jqpn50acv2CISaZTWBb5UkzYjDQcg5lMEL7w X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer =>I would think that it excludes "zion" for it seems to have quite different meaning from dhyana & zen. Really? Why? I think Zion or Sion (lat.-gr.) is exactly in Hebrew what is also meant with Dhyana or Zen: A city on a hill, the chosen city of god and his people. I can't see any difference in content between the terms, even in its materialized today explanation, nor did you expalin the phonetical identity. Is it an accident? The schools of Dzyan are also on a hill as every esoteric school. Wisdom and meditation are the usual translation for Dzyan and that is also exactly what is the business of god/gods and his chosen people. Frank From silva_cass@yahoo.com Fri Jul 01 01:26:50 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51144 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2005 08:26:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2005 08:26:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.39) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2005 08:26:50 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2005 08:25:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2005 08:25:35 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 08:25:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 6377 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.39 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 211.28.163.113 From: "silva_cass" Subject: Deep Impact X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=e1Zsmw3y6fhGKMDTaPBohxjquW7sl47hW73kmQBIJ6dIu5TNkw X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Although I havent listened to this as yet it looks interesting=20 enough to post and the native elders agree with what HPB said was=20 the nature of comets.=20=20 Cass Top NASA Scientist Share Their Thoughts on "Deep Impact"=20 Mission "live" on ECTV=20 by Mitch Battros =96 ECTV =20 I have now hosted two shows with some of the top minds and "inside"=20 research investigative scientists who have been assigned to NASA -=20 JPL "Deep Impact" mission. Most of our discussion was directed=20 towards the basic foundation and general premise of the mission. My=20 apologies for not advertising in advance. It has been quite the busy=20 week.=20 =20 Deep Impact\'s primary scientific theme is to understand the=20 differences between the interior of a cometary nucleus and its=20 surface. Cometary scientists are convinced, albeit on the basis of=20 little or no observational data, that the surface layers of the=20 nuclei are highly evolved. Numerous perihelion passages can lead to=20 significant loss of ice from the outer-most layers; if comets are as=20 porous as they are generally presumed to be, then this can lead to=20 significant changes in the ice.=20 =20 What I found far more intriguing, is when NASA scientist Casey Lisse=20 stated on ECTV's special Wednesday June 29th show "live" on-air:=20 (Lisse)"in part, the (Deep Impact) mission wants to see what will=20 happen just in case a NEA (near earth asteroid) is on a collision=20 course with Earth, and DoD (dept. of defense) is ordered to send up=20 missiles to slow down the asteroid, or to push it to a new=20 trajectory". It was one of those "what did I just hear" moments.=20 Every now and then, one gets these pearls of truth "live" on radio.=20 When it does, someone like me just sits back, smiles from ear to=20 ear, and gives a high five to empty space. J Under my breath I am=20 looking at my sound man thinking "you did get that, didn't you?"=20 =20 In a second interview with NASA scientist Lucy McFadden, on=20 Thursday's show, another pearl came through. We had a discussion on=20 ancient text and the concern Native elders have over shooting at a=20 comet. McFadden tells us "live" on-air: (McFadden) "NASA is aware of=20 the needs and perspective of elders, and also know of their belief=20 in the sacred nature of comets. We know many ancient tribes are=20 aware comets hold clues to the beginning of the solar system, and we=20 scientists believe the same thing and therefore, are sacred to the=20 scientist. The comet is sharing its secrets with us, and we have a=20 great deal of respect for this gift. We also have a great respect=20 for the many diverse cultures who share our world."=20 =20 Well now, it is good to know NASA is paying attention. In fact, as=20 you will see in "Solar Rain", some NASA, and other government agency=20 scientists are coming forward and more openly disclosing their=20 utilization of ancient (wisdom) text into current formulated=20 hypothesis.=20 =20 Special Note:=20 Because I was tardy in announcing the dates of my last two guest,=20 and due to its fascinating and richly filled information on "real- time" events, I am making Wednesday's special interview with NASA=20 scientist Casey Lisse free to everyone. For all ECTV members, you=20 can access the archive to these two shows, and recent shows, on=20 our "Recent Audio Files" page.=20 =20 Casey Lisse Interview:=20 http://www.earthchangestv.net/Audio/caseylisse62905.mp3 =20 =20 Important "Deep Impact" links and information: =20 "Deep Impact Mission" Home Page:=20 http://deepimpact.umd.edu/home/index.html =20 NASA Deep Impact "live" Feed:=20 http://www.nasa.gov/55644main_NASATV_Windows.asx =20 Webcast Details: All Times Pacific=20 =20 * July 1, 10 a.m. - Pre-impact briefing=20 =20 * July 3, 11 a.m. - Pre-impact update=20 =20 * July 3, 8:30 p.m. - NASA TV encounter coverage begin=20=20 =20 * July 4, 10:52 p.m. - Expected time of impact =20 * July 4, 1 a.m. - Post-impact briefing =20 * July 4, 11 a.m. - Post-impact press conference =20 =20 Earth Changes TV - Radio Hour =20 Every Tuesday and Thursday from 9 PM to 10 PM (Pacific). Go to the=20 ECTV home page and click on "Listen Live" which sits at the top=20 right of the page.=20 =20 Tuesday June 28th =96 Adam Rubel =96 We will discuss Adam's numerous=20 trips to the Guatemala jungle and home of Carlos Barrios. Adam also=20 has some words to say about the coming date July 18th 2005. It seems=20 the counsel of Mayan Elders has called for an intense meeting which=20 is related to upcoming Earth Changes of what is suggested to be at a=20 higher pitch than what we have witnessed this century.=20=20 Website: http://www.sacredroad.org=20 =20 Wednesday June 29th =96 Casey Lisse =96 NASA "Deep Impact" Mission=20 Scientist. His mission is the measurement of the physical properties=20 of cometary nuclei using radio, IR, and optical observations.=20 Measurement of the composition, particle size distribution, and=20 emission history of cometary dust using dynamical modeling and=20 optical/IR imaging photometry. Study of the thermal behavior of=20 asteroids and the interplanetary dust cloud. Phenomenological study=20 of the comet-asteroid transition and fragmenting comets. X-ray=20 emission from comets. Seek evidence for cometary gas and dust in exo- solar systems. Website: http://deepimpact.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/bio-clisse.html =20 Thursday June 30th =96 Lucy McFadden =96 NASA "Deep Impact" Mission=20 Scientist. Lucy is an Associate Research Scientist for the=20 University of Maryland Astronomy Department and an expert on=20 reflectance spectroscopy. She has published many papers in=20 professional journals and books, held several elected positions and=20 committee appointments, and is the recipient of multiple awards. She=20 is managing the mission\'s outreach and archiving activities.=20 Asteroid 3066 McFadden is named for her contributions. Website: http://deepimpact.umd.edu/mission/bio-lmcfadden.html =20 =20 =20 "Solar Rain": http://earthchangestv.com/store/product_info.php? products_id=3D28 =20 Subscribe To ECTV For Full Access:=20 http://www.earthchangestv.com/subscribe.php =20 Receive Free ECTV Newsletter:=20 http://www.earthchangestv.com/newsletter.php =20 Photo Gallery: http://www.earthchangestv.com/gallery/ =20 About Mitch: http://www.earthchangestv.com/aboutmitch.php =20 Survival Tips: http://www.earthchangestv.com/survival/index.php =20 =20 Mitch Battros Producer - Earth Changes TV http://www.earthchangestv.com =20 =20 From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Fri Jul 01 02:45:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1870 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2005 09:45:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2005 09:45:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.20) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2005 09:45:22 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n12.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2005 09:44:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.71] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2005 09:44:22 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:44:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <006301c57e12$45b247f0$152ca8c0@thebeast> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 414 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.20 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Theos-World The Jewish origin of Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=w5zd01zo-XCi5BR5_yc4q10m8I5Ui_OOdfJ9DGobZTPV1uUX X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz >> In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > I think Zion or Sion (lat.-gr.) is exactly in Hebrew what is > also meant with Dhyana or Zen: A city on a hill, the chosen city > of god and his people. The correspondence is too loose. There are more exact correspondences to this idea in sanskrit: sukhavati, or Tushita (pure land of Buddha), or different paradises of gods for their followers. From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Jul 01 05:00:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57216 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2005 12:00:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2005 12:00:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2005 12:00:10 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.141] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DoKBX-0001rm-Lf; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 07:59:59 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 04:59:38 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c57e34$650e91e0$8d92b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7963415f66e9bec348052b681df7ac0178350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.67 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Friends in Mental Plane X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=e6Bt4BukslSA0Lt_g6VJebpqhHovBMaZ9sQGD-p-lRtwww X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 June 30 2005 Dear K: Perhaps this may answer:=20=20 Theosophy teaches: DEVACHAN A LETTER to the editor from Holland upon this subject deserves reply, as is must give utterance to the questions of many other students. The complaint in this letter is that when one goes to Devachan much time is lost away from earth life, where otherwise unselfish work for others might be continued by instantly returning to it after death. The reason given is that Devachan is an illusion, while the so-called illusions of earthly existence are in such a sense real that they are preferable to those of Devachan. In illustration of this, the supposed case is given of a parent i= n Devachan imagining that the beloved child is also there, when, in fact, the child not yet physically dead remains on earth perhaps in misery or leading a life of vice. This is the root of the objection - the supposed illusionar= y character of Devachan as compared to earth-life. Now these feelings are always due to the thirst for life in the form which presently is most known to us, - that is, in a physical body. We cannot argue Devachan away any more than we can the necessity of incarnation upon this earth; the one is as philosophically necessary as is the other.=20 A very easy way out of the difficulty - which arises almost wholly from our feelings - would be to calmly accept the law as it stands, being willing to take whatever may be our fate, whether that be in Devachan or in this earth-life.=20 Our likes and dislikes can have no effect on the course of nature, but they may have an effect on ourselves which will be far from beneficial. For the dwelling upon pleasure or the constant desire to fly from "pain not yet come" will inevitably create Karmic causes which we would wish to avoid. But perhaps there are some considerations on the subject of Devachan which may be of use. In the first place, I have never believed that the period given by Mr. Sinnett in Esoteric Buddhism of fifteen hundred years for the stay in that state was a fixed fact in nature. It might be fifteen minutes as well as fifteen hundred years. But it is quite likely that for the majority of those who so constantly wish for a release and for an enjoyment of heaven, the period would be more than fifteen hundred years. Indeed, the Hindu Scriptures give many special ceremonies for the attainment of heaven, or the regions of Indra, which is Devachan; and those ceremonies or practices are said to cause a stay in Indraloka "for years of infinite number." The first question, however, must be "What is the cause for passing into Devachan?" Some have said that it is good Karma or good acts that take us and keep us there, but this is a very incomplete reply. Of course, in the sense that it is happiness to go into that state, it may be called good Karma. But it does not follow that the man whose life is good, passed in constant unselfish work for others without repining, and free from desire t= o have somewhere his reward, will go to Devachan. Yet his Karma must be good; it must act on him, however, in other lives, for the earth-life is the plac= e where such Karma has its operation. But if at the same time that he is thus working for others he wishes for release or for some place or time when and where he may have rest, then, of course, he must go to Devachan for a perio= d which will be in proportion to the intensity of those desires. Again, it should not be forgotten that the soul must have some rest. Were it, before becoming bright as the diamond, hard as adamant, and strong as steel, to go on working, working through earth-life after earth-life withou= t a break between, it must at last succumb to the strain and come to nothing. Nature therefore has provided for it a place of rest -- in Devachan; and that we should thankfully accept if it falls to our lot.=20 But does Devachan suffer in the comparison made between it and this life on earth? To me it seems not. Human life is as great an illusion as any. To th= e sage Ribhu, Vishnu said it was the longest-lived reign of fancy. To say tha= t it is a terrible thing to think of a mother in Devachan enjoying its bliss while the child is suffering on earth, is to prefer one illusion over another, to hug a philosophical error to the breast. Both states are out of the true, while the Ego, who is the real witness, sees the lower personalit= y struggling with these phantoms while it, whether the body be living or its other parts be in Devachan, enjoys eternal felicity. It sits on high unmoved, immovable.=20 The great verse in the Isa-Upanishad settles this matter for me in these words: "What room is there for sorrow and what for doubt in him who knows that all spiritual beings are the same in kind, though differing in degree.= " Therefore if I believe this, I must also know that, no matter whether I and my best beloved are in Devachan or on earth, they and I must forever partak= e of the highest development attained by the greatest of sages, for, as they and I are spiritual beings, we must have communion forever on the higher planes of our being. Then, again, the fact seems to be lost sight of that each night we go into = a sort of Devachan - the dream state or sleep without dream. The loving mother, no matter how unfortunate or evil her child, must sleep, and in tha= t state she may have dreams of her loved ones around her in just the very condition of mind and body she would have them enjoy. If Devachan be objectionable, why not also rebel against our necessary sleep which acts on our physical frame to give it rest, as Devachan does upon our more ethereal parts? Lying unnoticed at the foot of this matter is the question of time. It goes to the very root of the objection, for the aversion to the stay in Devachan is based upon the conception of a period of time. This period - given or supposed as 1,500 years - is another great illusion which can be easily proved to be so. What we call time, measured by our seconds and minutes and hours, is not necessarily actual time itself. It is not the ultimate precedence and succession of moments in the abstract. For us it depends on and flows from the revolutions of our solar orb, and even with that standar= d it can be shown that we do not apprehend it correctly. We speak of seconds, but those are such as our watchmakers give us in the watch. They might be made longer or shorter. They are arrived at through a division of a diurnal solar revolution, the observation of which not necessarily mathematically accurate. If we lived on Mercury - where we must believe intelligent beings live - our conception of time would be different= . >From our childhood's experience we know that even in this life our appreciation of the passage of time rises and falls, for in early youth the 12 months from one Christmas to another seemed very, very long, while now they pass all too quickly.=20 And from watching the mental processes in dreams we know that, in the space of time taken for a bell to drop from the table to the floor, one may dream through a whole lifetime, with all the incidents of each day and hour packe= d into such a limited period. Who can tell but that in a Devachanic state of three months the person may go through experiences that seem to cover thousands of years? If so, why not say for him - since time as we know it i= s an illusion - that he was in Devachan for those thousands? Devachan, however, is not a meaningless or useless state. In it we are rested; that part of us which could not bloom under the chilling skies of earth-life bursts forth into flower and goes back with us to another life stronger and more a part of our nature than before; our strength is revived for another journey between deaths. Why shall we repine that nature kindly aids us in the interminable struggle; why thus ever keep the mind revolving about this petty personality and its good or evil fortune?=20 W.Q.J. Path, September, 1890 =20 Dallas =20 -----Original Message----- From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Konstantin Zaitzev Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 12:53 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Friends in Mental Plane >> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > What is that for an idiotic poppycock? > Fairy tales for hysterical, non-thinking male and female aunts. It doesn't look like valueable kind of refutation. Though HPB gave no such teaching, yet the idea about ego acting=20 through the thoughtforms doesn't contradict it and may be taken as a=20 hypothesis, untill it shall be replaced by a better one. HPB wrote: "The Devachanee lives its intermediate cycle between two=20 incarnations surrounded by everything it had aspired to in vain, and=20 in the companionship of everyone it loved on earth. ... Q. But this is more than simple delusion, it is an existence of insane=20 hallucinations! A. From your standpoint it may be, not so from that of philosophy.=20 Besides which, is not our whole terrestrial life filled with such=20 delusions?" (Key to Theosophy) Devachanic existence really is no more an illusion than our earthly=20 existence, but most of us would agree that the latter gives us the=20 useful experience needed for our evolution. Now, as according to HPB average devachanic state lasts more that 1000=20 years and we pass most of our time there, it is impossible that we=20 passed all that time quite in vain. There should be no obsolete parts=20 in nature, and devachanees and their thoughtforms, (for the quotation=20 suggests the idea of thoughtforms), seem to be exactly such obsolete=20 and idle parts, unless we admit that they undergo some evolution. The proposed idea with ego acting in thoughtform as far as the=20 perfectness of the form permits it seems quite reasonable for it=20 provides fastest possible evolution for all egos involved, and also=20 explains HOW the devachan is not more illusion than a physical life. Wee see the thoughtforms of our friends according to our ideas about=20 them, and their egos can act through them while it conforms our=20 notions about them, so they cannot hurt us, yet they can do for us=20 anything good that we permit. The ego in devachan cannot communicate with the earth plane, as HPB=20 rightly remarks, but it doesn't interfere it to communicate on its own=20 plane - in that extent which its own illusions permit. The=20 thoughtforms seem to be the natural filter for this action. We have=20 such a filter on the physical plane, it's our body imposed by our=20 physical karma, so why there can't be a similar filter created by=20 other kind of our karma? There are no proof for this theory, yet it seems to me quite plausible=20 untill the better one will be proposed. =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Jul 01 05:00:23 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30038 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2005 12:00:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2005 12:00:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2005 12:00:22 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.141] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DoKBb-0001rm-RQ for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 01 Jul 2005 08:00:00 -0400 To: Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 04:59:38 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c57e34$678b2aa0$8d92b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f145bf2bcac2a8a2df0db3de34fea104350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.67 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World I am not getting any mail X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=BVR1Mgs0qsnClVOBEwxGmWMMP9Y5i55X84hzcn-wXZj3mw X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dear Marie: If you will let us have you e-mail address and any questions we will be gla= d to answer and correspond. [My e-mail address is: dalval14@earthlink.net] Best wishes, Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of olgamarie41 Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 11:02 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World I am not getting any mail Hello there....don't know to whom to direct this message, but I need to=20 let u know that I have not been getting any mail for the last 4 or 5=20 days. Please put me on to receive e-mail. Thank you. Marie =20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20 From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Jul 01 08:24:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94002 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2005 15:24:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2005 15:24:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m26.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.7) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2005 15:24:50 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r1.7.) id r.127.5f525e89 (25508) for ; Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <127.5f525e89.2ff6ba1e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:24:14 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.7 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Deep Impact X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162; y=E906VNx6aEYhXvgrK5IbY43kUx4PthxOwjqOPn_9t5wCJthfEQ X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 7/1/05 3:33:44 AM Central Daylight Time, silva_cass@yahoo.com writes: > The comet is sharing its secrets with us, and we have a > great deal of respect for this gift. We also have a great respect > for the many diverse cultures who share our world." > That's just plain disgusting! What the hell has science to do with respecting superstitions? If the elders don't like it, to hell with them and their cultures. Chuck the Heretic From Nisk98114@... Sat Jul 02 04:52:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54106 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2005 11:52:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2005 11:52:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m21.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2005 11:52:29 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@... by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r1.7.) id r.1fe.4c78619 (4262) for ; Sat, 2 Jul 2005 07:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1fe.4c78619.2ff7d9c2@...> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 07:51:30 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10712 X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.2 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:7:0 From: Nisk98114@... Subject: Re: Theos-World Digest Number 2105 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did anyone happen to see this? http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/dailycourier/news/s_189477.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Jul 02 19:44:33 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48883 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 02:44:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 02:44:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.56) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 02:44:31 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n27.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 02:44:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.69] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 02:44:31 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 02:44:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 93 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.56 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:7:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: The Past Life Memories of James Leininger X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=XJJi1j6k8HUdqDFV0TKO-_z5v7-da0EX64i67PquyDpBxOvDV8-qcOCW X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The Past Life Memories of James Leininger http://tinyurl.com/a8ou4 Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Jul 02 20:40:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19589 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 03:40:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 03:40:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 03:40:51 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 03:40:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.87] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 03:40:51 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 03:40:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 107 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.41 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Does Theosophy Have Core Teachings? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=gek0Jp5eGXQ9GvIFp2zhAW-Ta4d0Qj5bA0t5ayLNL47MMcESPmH1_Dl4 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Does Theosophy Have Core Teachings? http://blavatskyarchives.com/caldwelldthcd.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sat Jul 02 21:00:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79131 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 04:00:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 04:00:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.200.78) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 04:00:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 8156 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Jul 2005 04:00:53 -0000 Message-ID: <20050703040053.8154.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.113] by web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:00:53 PDT Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 21:00:53 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <1fe.4c78619.2ff7d9c2@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.200.78 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Digest Number 2105 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=t7tzuaWMfZQ5NCFz0xtfIXAksv4RQee3KRpRdFBzMip8NYrqOw X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hopefully, more in the west, will reincarnate so that it becomes undeniable. Cass Nisk98114@aol.com wrote: Did anyone happen to see this? http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/dailycourier/news/s_189477.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Jul 02 21:07:32 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7009 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 04:07:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 04:07:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40902.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.199) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 04:07:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 78557 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Jul 2005 04:07:30 -0000 Message-ID: <20050703040730.78555.qmail@web40902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.21.100] by web40902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 02 Jul 2005 21:07:30 PDT Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 21:07:30 -0700 (PDT) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 66.218.78.199 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "D. Caldwell" Subject: Is There Life After Death? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=LvnBTSvA4GXJY1z8UiLS3BWFW5MSAveaZJTsEHB9ZR20Hkw9U5BVax9Q X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Is There Life After Death? 14 Recommended Books Exploring Life After Death & Reincarnation See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/istherelifeaftedeath.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc lis th/nb a-l From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Sat Jul 02 23:03:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85255 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 06:03:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 06:03:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 06:03:44 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 06:03:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.79] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 06:03:44 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 06:03:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20050703040053.8154.qmail@web30105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 552 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.44 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 212.16.3.64 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: reincarnation Re: Digest Number 2105 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=JmCCaH8tUhy2ipGqTb14MIw2CTBqutAq6E3G8zC21L9kMaHZ X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz >> In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Hopefully, more in the west, will reincarnate so that it becomes undeniable. Noteworthy that this is yet another example of reincarnation of PERSONALITY. The boy retained all his personal likes and dislikes, including those to meatloaf and icecream! In spite of theories, Sams and Browns reincarnate again! > Nisk98114@a... wrote: > Did anyone happen to see this? > > http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/dailycourier/news/s_189477.html > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ringding@online.de Sun Jul 03 00:25:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74049 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 07:25:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 07:25:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.177) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 07:25:41 -0000 Received: from p54BF8A74.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.138.116] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKxQS-1DoyrD0A62-0006Qi; Sun, 03 Jul 2005 09:25:39 +0200 Message-ID: <003501c57fa0$83530c40$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 09:26:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.177 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World reincarnation Re: Digest Number 2105 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=S0W7RaM8girHeOUVJv5G58VE_6LPv-g2SsRBiEzL3lSpe4cIkGnQGrHk2Q X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer is that strange in anyway? The new personality does not come out of the blue, it consists of the life atoms of the last personality. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" To: Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 8:03 AM Subject: Theos-World reincarnation Re: Digest Number 2105 >> In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Hopefully, more in the west, will reincarnate so that it becomes undeniable. Noteworthy that this is yet another example of reincarnation of PERSONALITY. The boy retained all his personal likes and dislikes, including those to meatloaf and icecream! In spite of theories, Sams and Browns reincarnate again! > Nisk98114@a... wrote: > Did anyone happen to see this? > > http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/dailycourier/news/s_189477.html > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ringding@online.de Sun Jul 03 02:35:28 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7594 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 09:35:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 09:35:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.183) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 09:35:26 -0000 Received: from p54BF8A74.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.138.116] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKwpI-1Dp0sn2fuw-0004zC; Sun, 03 Jul 2005 11:35:25 +0200 Message-ID: <007f01c57fb2$a40c8f80$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 11:35:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.183 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:12:4 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World Politics in TS Re: Universal Brotherhood X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=bHTTVj-qPci6dFjL2Msnf77PQnTu8r5ubl1o4nGGiIPZFh0pckaIB7j-TQ X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer =>After 1917 many Russian theosophists fled from Russia and formed Russian Section abroad. It was against TS Rules, but Annie Besant I know. Many Russian theosophists/anthroposophists/artists which fled from the worker's paradise came to Berlin. There was from 1919 on until ?? a big center in the Ahornstr. Victor B. Fedjuschin (as his name rendered here) wrote about that in his good book. ==>which was issued in Russian in Boston, USA, in 1950's. One Indian theosophist confirmed me that alike political considerations may play some part even now, when I resented him that Adyar seems to be not very active in establishing TS in Russia. Mmmh. A new insight. Self-destruction not from insanity but upon higher orders. Can't you ask your source whether this is the policy also for theosophists in Germany? That would explain to me much. ==>Anoter example which is more marked but has no relation to TS is of Falun Dafa. This chinese organization has no political purposes but is prohibited in China. Now they have branches in many coutries and in Russia too. Wherever they try to organize their happenings or seminars, guys from Chinese embassy come and ask to prohibit it. If Here in Germany, too. Even the Tibet support groups want not to bee seen with Falun Dafa people and discontinued former shared activities like demonstrations. This suppresion will probably increase since China gets more and more important for Germany. Next week starts the first Berlin-Beijing direct flight (where there is since years no one to USA from Berlin). Nearly all Computer cases etc., kids toys, t-shirts etc. which you can buy in Germany comes from China. Our leading politicians say that the unemployed German must be competitive to the Chinese, who works for $15 a month. That will be no problem when the apartment rent is only $1, one month food $1, one month gasoline $1.... The intellectual and spiritual hald-dead TM seems not be interested in the satanic globalization. Frank From ringding@online.de Sun Jul 03 04:22:05 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65004 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 11:22:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 11:22:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.177) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 11:22:04 -0000 Received: from p54BF9A50.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.154.80] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKwh2-1Dp2Xz1fjk-00073Y; Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:22:03 +0200 Message-ID: <000c01c57fc1$892c1370$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:22:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.177 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Comes now the Dark Age? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=kkx6uzYgdco9_ItpaOZZ0sIWj2Ut4HtEy5rvbGfPygCxQcYJw1p9iAkT4Q X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was the founding of the TS in 1875 a failure? Do we enter kali yug now? What is the theosophists view of the present crisis? http://www.larouchepac.com/pages/speeches_files/2005/050112_berlin_conf.htm Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.: What I'm going to lay before you, contradicts the diplomatic and related assumptions of discussions around the world today: That, in the coming period, especially with the onrushing financial collapse, which is inevitable now, that what people believe today, will no longer be believed. The system is coming down. The present world monetary-financial system is finished, and will never rise again. It's coming on now. Exactly when the official collapse occurs, is uncertain, but it will be soon. And in terms of the system itself, there will be no remedy which will ever allow for its recovery as a system, again, in future history. So, we're going into a period of either chaos, which could be a Dark Age, or we're going into a period in which the assumptions of relations among states, especially respecting economic and related kinds of relations, will be changed forever-either for the better, or very much for the worse. We are looking, as I said, at a potential New Dark Age. Now, this became clear, this process, or this part of the process, became clear on the morning following Nov. 7, 2000, when a Democratic Presidential candidate, Al Gore, earned a loss of a Presidential election by his own foolishness, and brought in a very dangerous factor-not merely a President, George Bush, who is mentally ill, and incompetent, who is essentially a puppet of people such as George Shultz, and more immediately of his Vice President, Dick Cheney; but, a Vice President and a Shultz who are committed to a policy of the use of developing new nuclear weapons as part of a retinue for global, preventive nuclear warfare, in which the first nation on the target list-as of the moment that Mr. Cheney was sworn in as Vice President-was Iraq. Nothing that happened subsequent to that, had any effect on the decision to invade Iraq. It was a predetermined decision, which had been the policy of Cheney since he had been the Secretary of Defense under George Bush I. And he didn't give it up; he worked for it. There's an international group called the "neo-conservatives," who are for it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ringding@online.de Sun Jul 03 04:32:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94974 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 11:32:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 11:32:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.183) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 11:32:29 -0000 Received: from p54BF9A50.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.154.80] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKwtQ-1Dp2i33fh1-000162; Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:32:27 +0200 Message-ID: <002201c57fc2$fdd75da0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:33:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.183 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:12:4 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World Translations X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=Q_brHBdOHsX7mhc-GEwAGA0zzBV8_lTjz67MnS3r4DpIQENffRhmQWEU3A X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer John, I don't think that "mundane" is a proper translation for "lay". You can live in a monastery and still be a lay. I am not a language expert but I guess that what Konstantin meant rather tricky lower self interpretations. I never heard that the term Dharma has also a tricky materialistic meaning. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 11:24 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Translations Kay, >>> "lay chela". They translate it as "mundane chela", whatever that may Yes, "lay" is somewhat difficult word and we translate it as a "worldly chela".<<< When I first read this thread on this I was a little bewildered as to why this is so enigmatic for people to understand. Isn't it just that "Lay/Mundane" is contrasted to "Left Home" Chela in the Buddhist sense contrasting one who accepts and sincerely practices the Path or Teaching without having taken the Ordination Vows, Precepts, and Rules of Deportment of the Order of Monks who are referred too as "Left Home" and contrasted to "Lay/Mundane" chela practicioners who may also be married, single, etc. Also, It is not only nglish where words can have two meanings, look at the term "Dharma" a distinctly non-english word that has over a dozen elective meanings in usages, hopefully this abundance odesn't indicate the Hindu are many more times the "liars" than the english are,lol. Regards, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 03 08:51:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53403 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 15:51:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 15:51:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.54) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 15:51:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 15:51:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.79] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 15:51:53 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 15:51:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4177 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.54 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Is this Leininger case a "real" case of reincarnation or something else? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=-e2OBR5-xwkALQmrnC5tElGyLG9nUVAHOHRwfMeSeQJ5bg7Vxa9ZVg-D X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Consider the following case: The Past Life Memories of James Leininger http://tinyurl.com/a8ou4 in light of what the Master K.H. writes below. Is this Leininger case a "real" case of reincarnation=20 or something else? ----------------------------------------------------- ....the suicides and those killed by accident ... can=20 communicate, and both have to pay dearly for such=20 visits. And now I have again to explain what I mean.=20 Well, this class is the one that the French Spiritists=20 call -- "les Esprits Souffrants." They are an exception=20 to the rule, as they have to remain within the earth's=20 attraction, and in its atmosphere -- the Kama-Loka --=20 till the very last moment of what would have been the=20 natural duration of their lives. In other words, that=20 particular wave of life-evolution must run on to its=20 shore. But it is a sin and cruelty to revive their=20 memory and intensify their suffering by giving them a=20 chance of living an artificial life; a chance to overload=20 their Karma, by tempting them into opened doors, viz.,=20 mediums and sensitives, for they will have to pay roundly=20 for every such pleasure. I will explain. The suicides, who,=20 foolishly hoping to escape life, found themselves still alive, --=20 have suffering enough in store for them from that very life. Their=20 punishment is in the intensity of the latter. Having lost by the=20 rash act their seventh and sixth principles, though not for ever, as=20 they can regain both -- instead of accepting their punishment, and=20 taking their chances of redemption, they are often made to regret=20 life and tempted to regain a hold upon it by sinful means. In the=20 Kama-Loka, the land of intense desires, they can gratify their=20 earthly yearnings but through a living proxy; and by so doing, at=20 the expiration of the natural term, they generally lose their monad=20 for ever. As to the victims of accident -- these fare still worse.=20 Unless they were so good and pure, as to be drawn immediately within=20 the Akasic Samadhi, i.e. to fall into a state of quiet slumber, a=20 sleep full of rosy dreams, during which, they have no recollection=20 of the accident, but move and live among their familiar friends and=20 scenes, until their natural life-term is finished, when they find=20 themselves born in the Deva-Chan -- a gloomy fate is theirs. Unhappy=20 shades, if sinful and sensual they wander about -- (not shells, for=20 their connection with their two higher principles is not quite=20 broken) -- until their death-hour comes. Cut off in the full flush=20 of earthly passions which bind them to familiar scenes, they are=20 enticed by the opportunities which mediums afford, to gratify them=20 vicariously =85.=20 The rule is, that a person who dies a natural death, will remain=20 from "a few hours to several short years," within the earth's=20 attraction, i.e., in the Kama-Loka. But exceptions are, in the case=20 of suicides and those who die a violent death in general. Hence, one=20 of such Egos, for instance, who was destined to live -- say 80 or 90=20 years, but who either killed himself or was killed by some accident,=20 let us suppose at the age of 20 -- would have to pass in the Kama=20 Loka not "a few years," but in his case 60 or 70 years, as an=20 Elementary, or rather an "earth-walker"; since he is not,=20 unfortunately for him, even a "shell." Happy, thrice happy, in=20 comparison, are those disembodied entities, who sleep their long=20 slumber and live in dream in the bosom of Space! And woe to those=20 whose Trishna will attract them to mediums, and woe to the latter,=20 who tempt them with such an easy Upadana. For in grasping them, and=20 satisfying their thirst for life, the medium helps to develop in=20 them -- is in fact the cause of -- a new set of Skandhas, a new=20 body, with far worse tendencies and passions than was the one they=20 lost. All the future of this new body will be determined thus, not=20 only by the Karma of demerit of the previous set or group but also=20 by that of the new set of the future being.... --------------------------------------------------------- Quoted from THE MAHATMA LETTERS: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-16.htm Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 03 08:58:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7844 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 15:58:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 15:58:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.52) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 15:58:37 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n23.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 15:58:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 15:58:23 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 15:58:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 679 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.52 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Dr. Ian Stevenson with an Important Point Concerning Children Who Remember..... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=j6t99BvsWA00EcKOIFX0H50lC9FsT5Kt3asgaGhkItOmv9mobip7DSGj X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Below is an important point made by Dr. Ian Stevenson concerning children who claim to remember previous lives: "One of the most interesting, and potentially most important, of the recurrent features [of reincarnation cases] is the high incidence of violent death among the previous personalities of the cases. We found that among 725 cases from six different cultures, 61 percent of the subjects remembered previous lives that ended in violent death." Ian Stevenson, CHILDREN WHO REMEMEBER PREVIOUS LIVES, 1st ed., p. 160. Compare this with the quote from Master K.H. at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/27601 Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Jul 03 09:15:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88181 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 16:15:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 16:15:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 16:15:42 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dp785-0003iF-NO for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:15:37 -0400 Message-ID: <42C80F30.9050709@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:15:44 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <000c01c57fc1$892c1370$152ca8c0@thebeast> In-Reply-To: <000c01c57fc1$892c1370$152ca8c0@thebeast> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba4ff381f0575bd4787f8b5733da8cad825d5f9c5c39d41a28350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:7:0 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Comes now the Dark Age? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370; y=j18XqDnRdgTF9GCzxVaqT6ZLJeJaLoea3q1nM3pVfgbAUyI X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.: What I'm going to lay before you, For most of us, that's all we need to know. Bart From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 03 09:46:37 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21040 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 16:46:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 16:46:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.47) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 16:46:36 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n18.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 16:46:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.68] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 16:46:11 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 16:46:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2354 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.47 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Hypotheses OTHER THAN Reincarnation: The psychic "husk" theory, for example X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=9ijEH5B_hOxwJimjZTbPv5GzDW3rgaduzsHTiJ8-RK67FtO8-lE9ypxt X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The philosopher John Hick writes the following concerning one hypothesis other than "reincarnation"=20 to explain the cases of children who claim to remember=20 "their" previous lives: ------------------------------------------------------------- ....Stevenson himself discusses several different=20 hypotheses, other than reincarnation, each of which=20 may apply to one or more of his own twenty cases,=20 though he does not think that they can between them=20 convincingly cover all of them. I should like to=20 add one more to the list of possible non-reincarnationist=20 explanations, making use of the psychic factor=20 theory mentioned in chapter 7. This is the theory=20 that after bodily death a mental 'husk' or 'mask' of=20 the deceased person is left behind and is=20 telepathically accessible under certain conditions=20 to living persons. Such a 'husk' may consist of=20 mere fragments of memory, emotion, habit =96=20 analogous to isolated pieces of a tape-recording =96=20 or of a relatively coherent and cohensive body of=20 such elements and may . . . become linked to the mind of a medium=20 when in trance and be presented under the dramatic guise of a=20 visitor from the spirit world. This hypothesis can be extended to=20 cover the comparatively rare cases of an individual 'remembering' a=20 supposed previous identity and life. It may be that he (or she) is=20 telepathically sensitive in the same sort of way as a medium, and is=20 being influenced by the psychic 'husk' of some deceased person and=20 identifying himself with this. It is perhaps worth noting, as consistent with this possibility,=20 that in most, or perhaps all, of the more impressive cases of=20 reported memories of former lives =96 including all of Ian Stevenson's twenty selected cases =96 the remembered life was the most recent one, with a gap of no more than a few years between=20 its end and the beginning of the reported memories. Likewise=20 the 'spirits' who communicate through mediums have usually only=20 fairly recently died. The recency of the material in each case=20 might be expected if the phenomena have a common origin in=20 persisting psychic traces or 'husks' which presumably gradually fade=20 or decay with the passage of time. ----------------------------------------------------- Quoted from: John Hick, DEATH AND ETERNAL LIFE, p. 376 Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From samblo@cs.com Sun Jul 03 10:36:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54517 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 17:36:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 17:36:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m17.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.207) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 17:36:24 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r1.7.) id r.e5.1683c929 (3948) for ; Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:35:02 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-Originating-IP: 64.12.138.207 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Translations X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, Well from an American English perspective in my opinion "mundane" when used in reference to Buddhist Orders means "of the world" or "worldly" and seems to characterize one who has not "Left Home" ie; a "Lay" person. I am casually acquainted with Chinese Buddhism (Ch'an) and my "Lay" name given to me by Tripitaka Master Hsuan Hua (passed over) is Kuo Chuang, as a Lay Person I am not "Left Home" even though I took Lay Vows, a Left Home has formally entranced the Order and taken the Vows and observations not taken by Lay Persons and has "Left Home" by leaving his family and former life and become a Monk living at the monastery. Some Buddhist Orders also allow marriage and production of children (tibetan) and sexual abstaintion is not observed. A Lay person can also be a practictioner of Buddhism anywhere in any sect of Buddhism Frank, even if one restricts one's reading to only Blavatsky original written works how many different usages for Dharma does one find? There are many. And in terms of both the Hindu and Buddhist Literature there are even more, Dharma has the breadth of the universe for it's play ground. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 03 11:13:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59803 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 18:13:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 18:13:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.60) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 18:13:26 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n31.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 18:13:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.74] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 18:13:24 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:13:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 127 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.60 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: The Reincarnation FAQ X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=SK8NAdl09SA3jdDnklGkSuOAoS_498UuxsQ9BN95mp8xcpzj8ojgs1ag X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The Reincarnation FAQ http://geocities.com/richard_holmes/reincarnation/faq.htm Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http:hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 03 11:19:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83647 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 18:19:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 18:19:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 18:19:24 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 18:19:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.74] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 18:19:22 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:19:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 116 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.38 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Children's Past Lives Research Center X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=tetXwAUPGANSzFfBw4Jxa11I6ODQzBF5jEbRS_6W7SAxTsFE6-XER69F X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Children's Past Lives Research Center http://www.childpastlives.org/ Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 03 11:26:48 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28673 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 18:26:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 18:26:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.54) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 18:26:48 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 18:26:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.72] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2005 18:26:48 -0000 Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:26:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1894 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.54 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: OLD SOULS : Compelling Evidence from Children Who Remember Past Lives X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=wZA3Y4R0xyLBQM8g-eKIDgzjnljTrAtQFcx9MGz5A_NjdPAqf1Ct-t_8 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell OLD SOULS : Compelling Evidence from Children Who Remember Past Lives by Thomas Shroder See: http://tinyurl.com/7egw7 >From Publishers Weekly: --------------------------------------------------------------- While it is easy for Western science to dismiss as fantasy or wish fulfillment the recollections of individuals who "remember" being Cleopatra or Napoleon, how is one to explain a young boy's insistence that he is really a nondescript auto mechanic who died in a car crash a few years before? American psychiatrist Ian Stevenson has spent more than 30 years studying the cases of some 2000 children who spontaneously remember concrete details about dead strangers whose experiences can be documented. On his two final field trips, to Lebanon and India, he was accompanied by journalist Shroder, Sunday Style editor of the Washington Post. Shroder's account of these expeditions emphasizes physical detail over in- depth analysis but nevertheless makes for engrossing reading. In many cases, the subjects exhibit birthmarks or extreme phobias corresponding to injuries or traumatic events in their "past lives." They recognize the deceased's relatives and friends; in one case, a Lebanese boy asked the deceased's mother if she had finished knitting the sweater she was making for him when he died. That the compelling questions raised by such cases are ignored by the scientific establishment causes Stevenson great disappointment. "For me," he claims, "everything now believed by scientists is open to question, and I am always dismayed to find that many scientists accept current knowledge as forever fixed." The journalistic objectivity Shroder brings to his material makes this an exceptionally valuable treatment of an often disparaged subject. ----------------------------------------------------------- http://tinyurl.com/7egw7 Daniel http://hpb.cc From ringding@online.de Sun Jul 03 12:50:09 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22154 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 19:50:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 19:50:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.171) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 19:50:07 -0000 Received: from p54BF98F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.152.241] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKwh2-1DpATa0J1k-0002hE; Sun, 03 Jul 2005 21:50:02 +0200 Message-ID: <002b01c58008$80801ae0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: <000c01c57fc1$892c1370$152ca8c0@thebeast> <42C80F30.9050709@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:50:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.171 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World Comes now the Dark Age? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=PCs_h2CxxU4ygBdGsysFaJsH3wp3hd--QRW8pc2gdWpYgIpo9oTgvTS-Zg X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer If you want me to say that he is in many, if not most, cases not a trustworthy source, I would agree with you. Nevertheless you must not be a follower of Trotzkist renegates LaRouche do see what is going around us. Also from a theosophical point of view it looks a little bit dangerous. It it said that GdeP privately admitted that the war between dark and white is still in the balance. What do me is interesting in texts like that from LaRouche is how he uses the term Nazis. When he labels the people in the US who bankrupted Argentinia as Nazis it turns to be grotesque and a clear misinformation. Only people who never read big H and studied his deeds can fall into such a trap as he did just the opposite. But what term is not misused for the profit of the liers? The term Herrenvolk (master race) and the policy under that name is nothing else than theosophical doctrines in practise and equivalent to to Svabhava. Ironically, even theosophists - yeah, they did not their homework and do not understand theosophy - are driving wild as they believe blindly in the world wide propaganda of the oligarchy and the prostitutes and parasites of the press... Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Comes now the Dark Age? Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr.: What I'm going to lay before you, For most of us, that's all we need to know. Bart From opt-mas@slingshot.co.nz Sun Jul 03 15:50:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: opt-mas@slingshot.co.nz X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10812 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2005 22:50:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2005 22:50:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.woosh.co.nz) (202.74.207.2) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2005 22:50:33 -0000 Received: from murray.slingshot.co.nz (202-74-221-190.ue.woosh.co.nz [202.74.221.190]) by woosh.co.nz (Rockliffe SMTPRA 6.1.20) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 4 Jul 2005 10:23:00 +1200 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050704100917.030bdae0@pop3.slingshot.co.nz> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:23:30 +1200 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <1120398909.1224.36061.m19@yahoogroups.com> References: <1120398909.1224.36061.m19@yahoogroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Originating-IP: 202.74.207.2 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: reincarnation Re: Digest Number 2105 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=182846670; y=K490tJ4KLOqRzQ7ZDtCquv6wWC4ERMtECY26P6hytgPkpA What's notable, is that those who genuinely appear to recall a former life, as in this case and the many Ian Stevenson reincarnation research cases, died in relatively recent times, no more than a few decades ago. And they generally died young or in the prime of life. That indicates that personality traits can be carried forward when a person dies young and reincarnates soon. As if the full cycle of release of personality traits and ascent to devachan did not happen in these cases, but the return to earth was made with some of the energy or substance of those traits still there. Murray On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 09:26:18 +0200, Frank Reitemeyer wrote: >is that strange in anyway? >The new personality does not come out of the blue, it consists of the life >atoms of the last personality. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" >To: >Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 8:03 AM >Subject: Theos-World reincarnation Re: Digest Number 2105 > > > >> In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > > Hopefully, more in the west, will reincarnate so that it becomes >undeniable. > >Noteworthy that this is yet another example of reincarnation of >PERSONALITY. The boy retained all his personal likes and dislikes, >including those to meatloaf and icecream! In spite of theories, Sams >and Browns reincarnate again! > > > Nisk98114@a... wrote: > > Did anyone happen to see this? > > > > http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/dailycourier/news/s_189477.html > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 03 18:07:17 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45717 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 01:07:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 01:07:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.36) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 01:07:16 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 01:07:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.76] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 01:07:05 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 01:07:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 899 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.36 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: An "earth-walker"...would have to pass in the Kama Loka....60 or 70 years.... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=bi-DBg5txClkW0W2JenP7KH-InxiQ6MR03LUTVjsdcgqPV4w5KN6hWUP X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Master K.H. writes: ----------------------------------------------- The rule is, that a person who dies a natural death, will remain from "a few hours to several short years," within the earth's attraction, i.e., in the Kama-Loka. But exceptions are, in the case of suicides and those who die a violent death in general. Hence, one of such Egos, for instance, who was destined to live -- say 80 or 90 years, but who either killed himself or was killed by some accident, let us suppose at the age of 20 -- would have to pass in the Kama Loka not "a few years," but in his case 60 or 70 years, as an Elementary, or rather an "earth-walker"; since he is not, unfortunately for him, even a "shell." Happy, thrice happy, in comparison, are those disembodied entities, who sleep their long slumber and live in dream in the bosom of Space! --------------------------------------------------- From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 03 18:18:20 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 3993 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 01:18:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 01:18:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.54) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 01:18:20 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 01:17:33 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.92] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 01:17:33 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 01:17:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 511 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.54 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Could the young James Leininger be telepatheically sensitive to .....? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=Jtr4PDBoAAXNAG2T-aeyz9ha2l0SPx9E6od4Bn-72yAfTRsCnb50Y_Ny X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell So did the personality James Huston Jr. actually reincarnate into the personality James Leininger or is something else going on? Parphrasing John Hick's words, it may be that the young James Leininger is telepathically sensitive in the same sort of way as a medium, and is being influenced by the deceased James Huston Jr. who might still be in the Kama Lokic state mentioned by K.H. in the posting at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/27611 Food for thought. Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 03 18:30:33 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5287 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 01:30:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 01:30:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.52) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 01:30:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n23.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 01:29:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.80] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 01:29:45 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 01:29:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1081 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.52 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: The Case of Ma Tin Aung Myo X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=PqBIiSs00xsKFbSsOsZ_NI7hz8aRWhqekalapTGY-MjGydH4ZOqp_-if X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Ma Tin Aung Myo, a Burmese girl, was born on Dec. 26, 1953. During her pregnancy, the mother had dreamed on three occasions that a Japanese soldier was following her and telling her that he would come to stay with her. When Ma Tin was between three and four years old, she started remembering a previous life in which she had been a Japanese soldier stationed in Nathul during World War II, when the Japanese army occupied Burma. The Japanese soldier had been a cook and had been killed when an Allied plane strafed the village where he was staying. The soldier had been killed during the Japanese retreat from Burma. This would make 1945 the probable year of the soldier's death. Ma Tin could not remember the names either of the Japanese soldier or of the place in Japan where he had lived. Consequently, Dr. Stevenson could not trace a Japanese person corresponding to Ma Tin's statements. Was Ma Tin a "reincarnation" of this Japanese soldier or was Ma Tin and her mother "sensitive" to the "earthwalker" whose body had been killed in 1945? Daniel http://hpb.cc From perrycoles@yahoo.com Sun Jul 03 20:27:50 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84857 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 03:27:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 03:27:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 03:27:50 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 03:27:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.77] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 03:27:41 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 03:27:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1127 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.54 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 139.230.245.20 From: "Perry Coles" Subject: Re: Could the young James Leininger be telepatheically sensitive to .....? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069; y=d6JCXz6opYUxid1aqAkTDnn2feP1Vxz4JEJ6j2R52I5KgO-GmA X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Hi Daniel Thanks for these interesting cases. I think as with everything phenomena can have more than just one rationale we need to consider. It maybe that the child is "tapping into" an astral shell and the personality then interprets this as being a "past life". It may indeed be a "past life" of that child however other occult rationale could be equally compelling. Unless we are adepts it would be virtually impossible to say for sure,at least thats as far as my understanding goes. Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > So did the personality James Huston Jr. actually > reincarnate into the personality James Leininger > or is something else going on? > > Parphrasing John Hick's words, it may be that > the young James Leininger is telepathically sensitive > in the same sort of way as a medium, and is > being influenced by the deceased James Huston Jr. who might > still be in the Kama Lokic state mentioned by > K.H. in the posting at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/27611 > > Food for thought. > > Daniel > http://hpb.cc From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Mon Jul 04 00:51:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88427 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 07:50:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 07:50:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.48) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 07:50:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n19.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 07:49:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.70] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 07:49:41 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:49:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2216 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.48 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Hypotheses OTHER THAN Reincarnation: The psychic "husk" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=s2xVmXdhcfWoWF2J3L8f-h7KRhUlX1fNoCLU-YDM17Potry8 X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz >>-- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > The philosopher John Hick writes the following > concerning one hypothesis other than "reincarnation" > that after bodily death a mental 'husk' or 'mask' of > the deceased person is left behind and is > telepathically accessible under certain conditions > to living persons. This is very old theory, first laid out probably by the christians to refute reincarnation in general. The problem is that almost all undeniable cases (i.e. edvdences of unprejudiced children, got without hypnotic influence from outside or some yogic or other psychic practices from the side of subject himself) are exactly of that kind. If this theory was true, it would probably refute most evidences of reincarnation, because we simply scarcely have any others. The "telepathic" theory no way justifies the reincarnation based on the higher self and lower personality, it just dismisses reincarnation, if we approach scientifically take reliable evidences only. But fortunately the telepatic theory is very unscientific, and it is quite obvious that those "philosophers" who hold it, are quite inexperienced in psychical research, or ignoring the facts by religious considerations. It is well-known that those who are in telepathic contact never identify themselves with the persons contacted. On the contrary, sometimes the information form one's subconscious mind is attributed to external sources. Sometimes happens that a sprirt or a husk obscesses a medium's body, but in this case all his thinking and sometimes even voice is changed, and two different personalities never get intermingled, they are just switching. The children described as a rule have no telepatic or mediumistic faculties and have no other connections, while psychics and mediums generally can have many. Also it is not likely that the empty shell could survive in a good condition for more than 50 years, as in the case under consideration. It is strange that not only lower but also noble qualities survive, what doesn't conform the theosophical view about such shells. Some of these arguments were already used by Stevenson himself or by some of his followers. From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Mon Jul 04 00:59:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40914 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 07:59:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 07:59:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.58) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 07:59:35 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n29.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 07:59:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.77] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 07:59:31 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 07:59:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 102 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.58 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:7:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.187.209.208 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Leadbeater's Master (K.H.) wrote 'I am pleased with you' X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566; y=1MbCzUFjq2EiThNieLeTpuXouKXHE7ZjGpylFw-_Hgw_tx8X9c5DERY X-Yahoo-Profile: anandgholap_net Leadbeater's Master (K.H.) wrote in June 1886 to him " I am pleased with you" Cheers. Anand Gholap From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Mon Jul 04 01:03:28 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57981 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 08:03:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 08:03:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 08:03:28 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 08:03:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.88] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 08:03:17 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 08:03:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 991 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.37 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.187.209.208 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Liberal Catholic Church can be a powerful force for good X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566; y=CYBgsw9edKCtux2C60Fs95M9dycx75O3LJREw3zxRO7GQL5i6iNDPlM X-Yahoo-Profile: anandgholap_net Principle of unity of life, constitution of man taking into account his higher bodies, man as fragment of divinity who can know his unity with God directly, these principles which Theosophy gives were written long back in Hindu religion, Vedas and Upanishats. In other religions like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism these principles may be existing in esoteric part of them. However these three religions as understood by ordinary followers of those religions and as understood by scholars don't give the principles written above which Hindu religion gives. Liberal Catholic Church is the only other religion which visibly appreciates those principles. Leadbeater and Besant have given principles in Vedas through Theosophy. And LCC is the only other organized religion which openly shows appreciation of these principles as given by Theosophy. As Liberal Catholic Church is based on very sound philosophy called Theosophy it can be a very powerful force for good in the world. Anand Gholap From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Mon Jul 04 01:13:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74450 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 08:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 08:13:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 08:13:05 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 08:12:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.85] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 08:12:28 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 08:12:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003501c57fa0$83530c40$152ca8c0@thebeast> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1881 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.44 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Theos-World reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=JMJABlurWKDBygxaYH2-ycywdmNlXkoTTwasMoM47URzedeZ X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz > - In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > is that strange in anyway? > The new personality does not come out of the blue, it consists of the life atoms of the last personality. >> The boy retained all his personal likes and dislikes, >> including those to meatloaf and icecream! I emphasized the following point: "as the bee collects its honey from every flower, leaving the rest as food for the earthly worms, so does our spiritual individuality, whether we call it Sutratman or Ego. Collecting from every terrestrial personality, into which Karma forces it to incarnate, the nectar alone of the spiritual qualities and self-consciousness, it unites all these into one whole and emerges from its chrysalis as the glorified Dhyani-Chohan. So much the worse for those terrestrial personalities from which it could collect nothing. Such personalities cannot assuredly outlive consciously their terrestrial existence." I don't think that a like for meatloaf is a quality of that kind which can be called a "nectar of spiritual qualities". It would be better to keep "the bloom on Colonel's cheek" than such a spititual quality. Here I fully agree with Murray. I have read somewhere (probably in G. Hodson's lectures) that if a man dies "prematurely", by violent death or in childhood) he retains an old set of subtle bodies and after a short time reincarnates which them again. It should be regarded from an occult point of view as one incarnation. I have read even a story about German robber who killed a rich Australian tourist, and later was himself killed in a gangster clash. He was immediately reborn in Australia as a son of that very tourist. Obviously, there was a karmic link, not mere telepathic connection. When he realized that he killed is own father, he was put to psychiatric clinic, nevertheless he committed suicide. From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Mon Jul 04 01:23:28 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96661 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 08:23:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 08:23:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 08:23:28 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 08:22:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.87] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 08:22:36 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 08:22:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000c01c57fc1$892c1370$152ca8c0@thebeast> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 950 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.38 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Comes now the Dark Age? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=-Z7YqROM4GYM4nSzeYAvZ4_t9WbgreULq9c48p8aLnHzALtk X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz >>- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > Was the founding of the TS in 1875 a failure? > Do we enter kali yug now? We cannot enter it for we are in it for more than 5000 years. HPB said that we haven't passed the lowest point yet, but I hope that she meant communist and nazis regimes of 20th century. TS cannot be classed as a "failure", for it was really a desperate attempt, so ANY result is a good result. > Exactly when the official collapse occurs, is uncertain, but it will be soon. > Now, this became clear, this process, or this part of the process, became clear on the morning following Nov. 7, 2000, when a Democratic Presidential candidate, Al Gore, earned a loss They Americans think that if they collapse, all the world will collapse. But most probably the rest of the world will meet it by a sigh of relief. When Atlantis collapsed atlanteans probably also thought that it is the end of the history. From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Mon Jul 04 01:48:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2921 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 08:48:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 08:48:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.54) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 08:48:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 08:48:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.73] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 08:48:23 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 08:48:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <007f01c57fb2$a40c8f80$152ca8c0@thebeast> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1915 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.54 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Theos-World Politics in TS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=x0WPOPN2d6AsG95LIUgMry88HggppRTq2ur3-mWApNEdBgZi X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz >>-- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > Mmmh. A new insight. Self-destruction not from insanity but > upon higher orders. Can't you ask your source whether this is > the policy also for theosophists in Germany? I think that he doesn't know for sure, for he was merely theoretizing. But his point was about non-democratic countries and about countries where democracy isn't still well established now, like Russia, while it is not so in your case. As for Germany, as far I know, you have enough members to have a section, so you are able to stand on your own feet and need no special support. But eastern German lands may need it, at least from the side of western lands. Nevertheless you may compare it with situation in Germany after 1945. Then Germany definitely needed such help, and you can judge for yourself, was there such help and was that help enough. But during WW2 many national sections suffered much, so Headquarters probably couldn't pay enough attention to each country which needed help. I have read in abovementioned magazine "Alba" that the School of Wisdom was an invention of Jinarajadasa and was intended just to refill the lack of learned workers after the war. There is also another consideration. Anthroposophical tradition is prominent in Germany and in some other European countries; probably they occupy one niche with the theosophists. By the way, after the failure with Steiner, Adyar may be not very enthusiasting about the work in Germany; it may be the question of sparing energy, not of politics. > This suppresion will probably increase since China gets more and more important for Germany. > Our leading politicians say that the unemployed German must be competitive to the Chinese I wonder what hell is China getting more important for Germany. >From the first glance, the less contacts with China the better for German economy. From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Jul 04 08:57:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40588 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 15:57:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 15:57:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 15:57:37 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 15:54:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.87] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 15:54:59 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 15:54:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7016 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.50 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Konstantin on: Hypotheses OTHER THAN Reincarnation: The psychic "husk" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=8EOt5RgG3JAdPN0Ohnlto7XjrBtvwZwYTtuFEGQwASVW8bUW28Q291AY X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Konstantin, Thanks for your recent comments at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/27615 There is much I would like to say but will just jot down a few thoughts since my time is limited this morning. First of all, I would like to know your "take" on what the Master K.H. said in the following postings: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/27611 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/27601 It seems that many Theosophists have ignored what the Master says in this excerpt or downplayed what is said or simply disbelieved the Master..... Moving on. You write: "This is very old theory, first laid out probably by the christians to refute reincarnation in general." Well the theory may be old but still true. And whether the Christians used it or not to refute reincarnation does NOT mean that it may not be relevant to the cases we are discussing. You go on to say: "If this theory was true, it would probably refute most evidences of reincarnation, because we simply scarcely have any others." Well if it refutes most evidences of reincarnation, and it is also true, then so be it..... You also comment: "But fortunately the telepatic theory is very unscientific, and it is quite obvious that those 'philosophers' who hold it, are quite inexperienced in psychical research, or ignoring the facts by religious considerations." It is hard to understand exactly in what sense you mean the telpathic theory is "very unscientific". And it may be "quite obvious" to you that these philosophers are inexperienced in psychical research, but since you have not detailed why it should be so obvious, it is hard to know what you are exactly referring to. You also state: "Also it is not likely that the empty shell could survive in a good condition for more than 50 years, as in the case under consideration." Well the "empty shell" theory may not apply to the case under consideration, but notice that in the following extract from the Master KH, he is referring not to a shell but to something else: ----------------------------------------------------- The rule is, that a person who dies a natural death, will remain from "a few hours to several short years," within the earth's attraction, i.e., in the Kama-Loka. But exceptions are, in the case of suicides and those who die a violent death in general. Hence, one of such Egos, for instance, who was destined to live -- say 80 or 90 years, but who either killed himself or was killed by some accident, let us suppose at the age of 20 -- would have to pass in the Kama Loka not "a few years," but in his case 60 or 70 years, as an Elementary, or rather an "earth-walker"; since he is not, unfortunately for him, even a "shell." ---------------------------------------------------------- So here we are referring to an "earth-walker" not to a "shell". Then you add: "It is strange that not only lower but also noble qualities survive, what doesn't conform the theosophical view about such shells." But again in the case under consideration, it may not be a shell but an earthwalker..... and the noble qualities would survive in this particular "state". Again remember what KH writes: "...those killed by accident ... have to remain within the earth's attraction, and in its atmosphere -- the Kama-Loka -- till the very last moment of what would have been the natural duration of their lives. In other words, that particular wave of life-evolution must run on to its shore." And KH writes that many of the victims of accident, if "good and pure", would "fall into a state of quiet slumber, a sleep full of rosy dreams, during which, they have no recollection of the accident, but move and live among their familiar friends and scenes, until their natural life-term is finished, when they find themselves born in the Deva-Chan...." In other cases, the victim might be quite aware of the accident and still be in a state of slumber sometimes...waiting in this state until his/her natural lifeterm is finished and the "death struggle/gestation/and devachan" stages begin.... The child in the case under consideration may develop a telepathic rapport with this "entity" and even share the dreams of the "entity". I myself have had vivid dreams in which I felt I was someone else, not Daniel Caldwell. If this could happen in my dream state, then it is not such a stretch to assume that the child might also identify with this "other someone". And consider this suggestive passage from another letter from K.H.: ============================================= Quotation from Tennyson? Really cannot say. Some stray lines picked up in the astral light or in somebody's brain and remembered, I never forget what I once see or read. A bad habit. So much so, that often and unconsciously to myself I string together sentences of stray words and phrases, before my eyes and which may have been used hundred years ago or will be hundred years hence, in relation to quite a different subject. Laziness and real lack of time. The "Old Lady" called me a "brain pirate" and a plagiarist, the other day for using a whole sentence of five lines, which, she is firmly convinced, I must have pilfered from Dr. Wilder's brain as three months later, he reproduced it in an essay of his on prophetic intuition. Never had a look into the old philosopher's brain cells. Got it somewhere in a northern current -- don't know. Write this for your information as something new for you, I suppose. Thus a child may be born bearing the greatest resemblance and features to another person, thousands of miles off, no connexion to the mother, never seen by her, but whose floating image was impressed upon her soul-memory, during sleep or even waking hours, and reproduced upon the sensitized plate of living flesh she carries in her. ======================================================= Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-49.htm So one might ask: What OTHER floating "images" FROM ANOTHER PERSON might be impressed upon the child's own "soul-memory"???? Could memories float into the child's own soul-memory? Plus keep in mind that Dr. Stevenson has also found other cases of children "with anomalous dates of death and birth." He writes: "In a small number of cases, the subject was born BEFORE the person whose life he remembered died...In a case of this kind, taken at face value, it would seem that the subject's body was fully made and presumably occupied by one personality before another one took it over...." So if child A starts remembering a life he/she "lived" as person B but later it is found out that the previous life of person B did not end until child A was let us say 3 years old, what is child A ACTUALLY "remembering"? HIS OWN previous life??? or the life of ANOTHER human being who is now "dead"??? Or....? These last two points need to be expanded on a great deal but I must do that later. Daniel http://hpb.cc From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Jul 04 10:07:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81148 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 17:07:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 17:07:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 17:07:51 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DpUPq-0002Lv-LA for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:07:30 -0400 Message-ID: <42C96CDB.2040100@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:07:39 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba24f30f99eb77e0e43460d11359a437f22601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.65 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:7:0 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Leadbeater's Master (K.H.) wrote 'I am pleased with you' X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370; y=wWNZllnBtjjhpg1Hx7k0EyAeic7LtBEESGqyDbtxz_K4ng4 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Anand Gholap wrote: > Leadbeater's Master (K.H.) wrote in June 1886 to him " I am pleased > with you" Unfortunately, he was writing about Olcott. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Jul 04 10:08:20 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5843 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 17:08:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 17:08:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 17:08:19 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DpUQd-0002aY-4P for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:08:19 -0400 Message-ID: <42C96D0B.8000608@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:08:27 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba24f30f99eb77e0e46a58e3543731fe51548b785378294e88350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.65 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Liberal Catholic Church can be a powerful force for good X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370; y=rZdC-BULeU37K_zoykLF4JOPr7BTNcUdKw_nc0K2N0UoX6M X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Anand Gholap wrote: > As Liberal Catholic Church is based on very sound philosophy called > Theosophy it can be a very powerful force for good in the world. Except that it is complete violation of the 1st Object of the Theosophical Society. Bart From ringding@online.de Mon Jul 04 10:57:19 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57115 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 17:57:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 17:57:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.177) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 17:57:16 -0000 Received: from p54BF99BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.153.191] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML29c-1DpVBQ0cIO-0008Gg; Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:56:40 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c580c1$cd71adf0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: <42C96D0B.8000608@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:57:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.177 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World Liberal Catholic Church can be a powerful force for good X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=nxYPY_aBJ-IYITTv3zTDLVHC6G-OgjGO2MU5znW2qJ1lmISC4TvJCZNwww X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Even more serious, the LCC nightmare monster is a complete violation of the 3rd object of the TS. They want to develop rather outer powers than inner, latent in man. The LCC pseudo-theosophy is intolerant to pukka theosophy and unbrotherly to HPB and her teachers. It weakens the human mind and will, offers stones instead of bread and is therefore a violation of nature and natural evolutionary development. They oppose the work of the helpers of mankind and try to descend us down into mental slavery. A kind of clever brainwashing with some pieces of stolen theosophical teachings, intermixed with poppycock. Because of this clever camouflage more dangerous as open enemies. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Liberal Catholic Church can be a powerful force for good Anand Gholap wrote: > As Liberal Catholic Church is based on very sound philosophy called > Theosophy it can be a very powerful force for good in the world. Except that it is complete violation of the 1st Object of the Theosophical Society. Bart From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Jul 04 11:09:07 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80443 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 18:09:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 18:09:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 18:09:02 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 18:06:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.75] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 18:06:37 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:06:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42C96CDB.2040100@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 363 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.44 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Bart on: Leadbeater's Master (K.H.) wrote 'I am pleased with you' X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=gEIpye1nOQdSq1TtkM86Qd-lT62Ok2YFulLwu3I1qic3Jde7VJRe4vBu X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Anand Gholap wrote: > > Leadbeater's Master (K.H.) wrote in June 1886 to him " I am pleased > > with you" > > Unfortunately, he was writing about Olcott. > > Bart Bart, as far as I can tell, you are wrong on this and Anand is correct. See: http://www.tphta.ws/CWL_KHLE.HTM Daniel From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Mon Jul 04 12:49:52 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93941 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 19:49:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 19:49:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 19:49:52 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 19:48:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.75] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2005 19:48:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 19:48:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7803 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.37 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 212.16.3.64 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Konstantin on: Hypotheses OTHER THAN Reincarnation: The psychic "husk" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=WV4myR7YjZ3B3F_Bb6-tyYut5UvW5_AIGV8e6zSo239GcupS X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz > In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: Dear Daniel, > It seems that many Theosophists have ignored what > the Master says in this excerpt or downplayed what is > said or simply disbelieved the Master..... It's just because reincarnation has much more evidences than existence of the Masters. Reincarnation, according to many known evidences seems to be more reasonable theory, it can stand easily without support of the theory about Masters which itself needs some support. You know that there are many alternative explanations about Masters, really much more than alternative explanations of reincarnation like telepathic theory, etc. One simple question. It is widely believed that Mahatma Letters are created by so called precipitation. The Master has the image in his mind and produces the letter by means of materialization. But WHY all the letters are in the handwriting, while it is much easier to imagine the PRINTED letters, like those we see in the books and on the screen? To imagine handwriting with much minor details is much harder task, and needs much efforts with are quite obsolete for they make the letters more hard to read. >> it would probably refute most evidences of reincarnation, >> because we simply scarcely have any others. > Well if it refutes most evidences of reincarnation, and it is also true, then so be it..... It is important because you are using for its support some information based on the authority of the Masters. They also taught reincarnation. In this case we are left with two theories which are quite speculative because there are almost no any evidences for them. > It is hard to understand exactly in what sense you mean the > telpathic theory is "very unscientific". I mean that it needs many assumptions for its support, while it ignores the experience of many psychic researchers, parapsychologists and other people who experimented with telepathy. Some people think that the theory of the formation of the universe from the casual combination of atoms is a scientific one, but to me (and probably to other theosophists too) it seems to be a large assumption. Similarly with a husk-theory. We should assume that the husk survives, that it lives many years, that it is not a soul but a husk, that it attaches to some child (why to this particular child, there's no any explanation), that the personality of the child undergoes some change when he cannot separate two personalities and they are perfectly blended into one, endowing the child by the likes, dislikes and qualities to the alleged husk. > you have not detailed why it should be so obvious, it is hard to > know what you are exactly referring to. Because they ignore information which is well known to anyone who studied results of the psychic experiments. They have right for their own opinion, but it seems that don't take any trouble to refute the deductions made by experimenters from their data. For example, how telepathic theory explains the marks on the body of the new-born child which correspond to the injuries made in previous life by swords, bullets and traces of surgical operations? How it explains that a child has no other telepathic contacts and no any ESP? How does it explain why the child feels quite happy and there's no fight and fear as in the case of obscession? (Behaviour in a case of obscession is well known and is described not only in parapsychological but in the religious literature also). Why authors of the theory ignore all that and don't take any trouble to refute previous evidences of parapsychologists? > Well the "empty shell" theory may not apply to the case under > consideration, but notice that in the following extract from the > Master KH, he is referring not to a shell but to something else: He just describes the survival of the soul, if we to use the ordinary words. He never proposed the obscession theory. Obscession is quite other thing and it is well-known. If you don't believe to other authors, HPB herself also describes a typical case of obscession in her Nightmare Tales. > And KH writes that many of the victims of accident, if "good and > pure", would "fall into a state of quiet slumber, a sleep full > of rosy dreams, during which, they have no recollection of the > accident, but move and live among their familiar friends and > scenes, until their natural life-term is finished, when they find > themselves born in the Deva-Chan...." I very glad for them, but it is not the case with the pilot boy who had a good recollection. Moreover, no Master wrote that instead going to devachan such entity obscesses poor children. He'd rather eat his own turban than to write such a nonsense! > I myself have had vivid dreams in which I felt I was > someone else, not Daniel Caldwell. If this could happen in my It is a phenomenon known very well to psychical researchers, but it is a switching of personalities, they don't got intermingled. There was a case of a woman who have seen the dreams from her past life, and that person of XIX century was really identified, and your theory could work for these cases, but these are not numerous; really I know only one fully described. But in your case it can be just an additional personality, for some contemporary psychologists hold the theory that a man can have several personalities. >> Some stray lines picked up in the astral light or in somebody's >> brain and remembered, I never forget what I once see or read. >> "Old Lady" called me a "brain pirate" and a plagiarist > Thus a child may be born bearing the greatest resemblance and > features to another person, thousands of miles off, The Master describes the well known phenomenon of tepepathy or the brain piracy, but it NEVER involves personal attitudes and attachments. I know this phenomenon very well, for I was an inductor and another guy was a recipient. It was in a newsgroup like this; there was a delay between the time of composition and the time of publication. My pen-friend often wrote replies which conformed to mine in essence; the inquirer often received two similar answers, from me and from my friend, the mine was earlier, the his was later but he couldn't see mine when he wrote. Nevertheless the messages retained the different pecularities of my and his styles and attitudes, only the meaning matched. > no connexion to the mother, never seen by her, but whose > floating image was impressed upon her soul-memory, The influence of the child to be born is also the phenomenon which sometimes happens but it has other nature, somewhat similar to telepathy or maybe psychic suggestion. For example, my mother is a materialist, or rather an agnostic. Some time before I was born she visited a library on other town and by unknown reason she felt an impulse to take a book by Blavatsky and read. Those books were quite rare then; they wasn't strictly prohibited but it was rather a miracle that she came upon such book in a public library of some provincial town. She confessed that she didn't understand anything, and she had no wich to study such books later. Noteworthy that it was like a suggestion but she retained her own attitude to such kind of books. She didn't know why she read it. > Plus keep in mind that Dr. Stevenson has also found other cases > of children "with anomalous dates of death and birth." It is the only serious fact worth consideration. > it would seem that the subject's body was fully made and > presumably occupied by one personality before another one > took it over...." Yet I have met the examples of that in occult literature. It explains by the actual death of previous tenant. Those can be the cases of yogis who can inhabit the free body by will, or on the contrary, of unevolved souls for which any body is fit. From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Jul 04 15:36:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27065 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2005 22:36:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2005 22:36:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2005 22:36:45 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DpZYS-000671-NF for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:36:44 -0400 Message-ID: <42C9BA45.5040208@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:37:57 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba9e80b1155fc8ecd9589b288a59eb333f3899c79c7caf56c9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Bart on: Leadbeater's Master (K.H.) wrote 'I am pleased with you' X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370; y=sxMXIe--gXqTNBGoKARsQW-wOOVCHn5WrKf39ZfiU2Fquss X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: >> Unfortunately, he was writing about Olcott. >> > Bart, as far as I can tell, you are wrong on this and > Anand is correct. See: > > http://www.tphta.ws/CWL_KHLE.HTM Oh! You're talking about THOSE letters. Do the originals still exist? Bart From silva_cass@yahoo.com Mon Jul 04 20:45:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53013 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2005 03:45:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2005 03:45:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web30114.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.201.222) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2005 03:45:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 70645 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Jul 2005 03:44:37 -0000 Message-ID: <20050705034437.70632.qmail@web30114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.113] by web30114.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Jul 2005 20:44:37 PDT Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:44:37 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050704100917.030bdae0@pop3.slingshot.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.201.222 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: reincarnation Re: Digest Number 2105 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=IItJlHR2XfhPBhutwPttF1TqB8un1Am14nasfmAuenCFTbzf0w X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Murray, Just thought I would post this, there is something rotten in the State of Denmark, me thinks. The evolutionary/scientific debate has diminished into a one sided mud slinging event with no scientific answers coming forward. Anand will be shrilling with joy over this. Cass "10- No animal food of whatever kind, nothing has life in it, should be taken by the disciple. No wine, no spirits or opium should be used; for these are like the Lhamaym (evil spirits), who fasten upon the unwary, they devour the understanding." - PRACTICAL OCCULTISM by H.P.BLAVATSKY [1] > My take on Copenhagen is that space is both > full and empty at the same time. > - Ed My take on the Copenhagen theory is that hypocrite Madame Blavatsky would skip that Nordic chew city to instead head for Amsterdam to do her spacey empty vision thing with a little legal hashish smoking mixed with opium (compare above and below). [1] [2] J.Scott "HPB was penniless but said that she had wrote home to her relatives for money and expected to receive it from the Russian Council at anytime. This is how she survived in the home. She managed to divide the home into two groups, those not liking her and those that did. She entertained the latter group with stories of her life and by holding seances on Sunday nights. This seemed to work until a newspaper took a dislike to her and accused her of using hashish and opium." [1] PRACTICAL OCCULTISM by H.P.BLAVATSKY http://www.anandgholap.net/Practical_Occultism-HPB.htm [2] Blavatsky, Helena Petrovna (1831-1891) http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/b/blavatsky_helena_petrovna.html --------------------------------- Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Jul 05 04:24:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78226 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2005 11:24:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2005 11:24:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.61) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2005 11:24:34 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.4] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DplX5-0003Jv-NS; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 07:24:19 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 04:23:32 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c58154$0e9d1a20$04deb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79f755e694a7da9c0c44d01ffaf62fee65350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: MIND SOME QUESTIONS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=cLfa_US2sPu-WvXnG9ozyE10qP85RouGZ8neID2gTMOU3A X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 July 5 2005 Dear Friends: Some questions on the mind I had: And suggestions? ---------------------------------------- MIND =E2=80=93 MANAS -- INTELLECT -- THOUGHT.DOC =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thought, ideas and questions: --------------- IS THE MIND FREE or BOUND -- to LEARN -- to PRACTISE -- to TEAC= H ? ARE THERE LIMITS TO THE RANGE OR DEPTH OF THOUGHT ? WHAT IS THE NATURE OF PARADOX ? [Ex: Moebus strip, Klein jar. ] NATURE & QUALITIES OF MIND-BEING ? IS =E2=80=9CSOUL=E2=80=9D A SYNONYM FOR MIND ? =E2=80=9CSoul=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9CTheosophists have got into the habit of usi= ng the words "Self" and "Ego" as synonymous, of associating the term "Self"= with only man's higher individual or even personal "Self" or Ego, whereas = this term ought never to be applied except to the One universal Self.=E2=80= =9D Key 174-5 WHAT IS =E2=80=9CSPIRIT ?=E2=80=9D [ Universal perfection -- omniprese= nt ] [ in every man and every life-atom ] WHAT ARE : LIFE ? PURPOSE ?=20=20 [ Spiritualizing Matter through practical virtue ]=20 WHAT IS THE RELATION OF SOUL TO SPIRIT ? [ =E2=80=9CSon=E2=80=9D to =E2=80= =9CFather.=E2=80=9D ] =E2=80=9CPatanjali in his YOGA SUTRAS, indicates that "the Universe exists for the Soul's experience and emancipation." (Pat, pp. 25, 26.) He also indicates that the Soul, when in a body, is conjoined with "the organ of thought" (the brain-mind). Pat, pp. 25, 26. =20=20=20 Atma the inseparable ray of the Universal THE HIGHER and ONE SELF. It is the God above, more SELF is { than within, us. Happy the man who=20 succeeds in saturating his inner Ego with it!=09=20 Key p. 175 =E2=80=9CParabrahm (the One Reality, the Absolute) is the field of Absolute= Consciousness, i.e., that Essence which is out of all relation to conditio= ned existence, and of which conscious existence is a conditioned symbol. Bu= t once that we pass in thought from this (to us) Absolute Negation, duality= supervenes in the contrast of Spirit (or consciousness) and Mater, Subject= and Object.=E2=80=9D Secret Doctrine Vol I, Proem page 15.. =E2=80=9CSpirit (or Consciousness) and Matter are, however, to be regarded,= not as independent realities, but as the two facets or aspects of the Abso= lute (Parabrahm), which constitute the basis of conditioned Being whether s= ubjective or objective.... just as pre-Cosmic Ideation is the root of all i= ndividual consciousness, so pre-Cosmic Substance is the substratum of matte= r in the various grades of its differentiation.=E2=80=9D -- -Secret Doctri= ne Vol I, Proem page 15. "There is not one finger's breadth (ANGULA) of void Space in the whole Boun= dless (Universe)..." S D I 289 "Consciousness is ONE throughout the Universe - in man and matter, element = and forces." Theosophy, Vol. 17, p. 287 WHY IS HUMANITY SO VARIED AS INDIVIDUALS, YET SO UNIFORM AS TO FACULTIES ? [ Union of Mind and Desire / personal natures ] CAN EMOTIONS BE SEPARATED FROM MIND and THOUGHT PROCESSES ?=20 [ Yes -- they are irrational and ultimately self-destructive]=20 DOES THE FACULTY OF ATTENTION BEAR ON LEARNING ? DOES =E2=80=9CWILL=E2=80=99 BEAR ON LEARNING? WHAT IS =E2=80=9CWILL ?=E2= =80=9D ARE OUR MEMORIES ALTERED OR MODIFIED BY OUR =E2=80=9CINTERESTS ?=E2=80=9D=20 ARE INTERESTS EMOTIONS, DESIRES, PASSIONS ?=20=20 WHAT ARE =E2=80=9CPASSIONS AND DESIRES=E2=80=9D TO BE CLASSIFIED AS ? DO THEY OBEY THE SAME RULES AS EITHER =E2=80=9CSPIRIT=E2=80=9D OR =E2=80=9C= MIND=E2=80=9D ? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D FACT -- or DELUSION -- VEIL ? VERIFICATION OF INFORMATION ? ACCURACY -- HONESTY=20=20 TRANSFER OF MEANING -- what is =E2=80=9CMEANING ?=E2=80=9D MEANING [like DATA] has VALUE if TRUE and ACCURATE in reporting. WORDS CAN BE INACCURATE -- but, CAN LEAD TO TRUTH THROUGH UNDERSTANDING. What adjustments have to be made? By whom ? KNOWLEDGE OF LAW can give an approximate verification leading to TRUTH if a= pplied.=20 ALL TRANSFER OF KNOWLEDGE IS SYMBOLICAL. Direct mind to mind transfer is r= are.=20 SYMBOLS TO BE USEFUL MUST HAVE UNIVERSAL ACCEPTANCE -- LAW ? HOW TO VERIFY LAW ? UNIVERSAL -- IMPERSONAL -- TIMELESS --=20=20 IS UNIVERSE LIMITED ?=20 Has UNIVERSE A PURPOSE ? "At the commencement of a great Manvantara [ great cycle of evolution ], Pa= rabrahm [ the ABSOLUTE ] manifests as Mulaprakriti [ root-matter ] and then= as the Logos ["Word"=E2=80=94thought--plan ]. This Logos is equivalent to = the "Unconscious Universal Mind," etc., of Western Pantheists. It constitu= tes the Basis of the Subject-side of manifested Being, and is the source of= all manifestations of individual consciousness. Mulaprakriti or Primordial Cosmic Substance, is the foundation of the OBJEC= T-side of things--the basis of all objective evolution and Cosmogenesis. Force, then, does not emerge with Primordial Substance from Parabrahmic Lat= ency. It is the transformation into energy of the supra-conscious thought = of the Logos, infused, so to speak, into the objectivization of the latter = out of potential latency in the One Reality.=20=20 Hence spring the wondrous laws of matter...Force succeeds Mulaprakriti; bu= t, minus Force, Mulaprakriti is for all practical intents and purposes non-= existent." SD II 24-5=09 Do Man=E2=80=99s COGNITIVE FACULTIES INDICATE PURPOSE for himself and Unive= rse ?=20 =E2=80=9CKNOWLEDGE IS POWER. IGNORANCE IS FEAR.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9CI THINK, THEREFORE I AM.=E2=80=9D --- Descartes "Self-consciousness belongs alone to man and proceeds from the Self, the hi= gher Manas."=20=20=20 HPB ART, Vol. II, p. 9 NO MAN THINKS EXACTLY AS ANOTHER.=20=20 FACULTY OF COGNITION AND RATIOCINATION HAS DEGREES BUT IS PRESENT IN ALL.=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ENTITY: WITNESS -- OBSERVER -- PERCEIVER --=20=20 "MANAS...THE INNER OR HIGHER "EGO" ... The "Fifth Principle, so-called, ind= ependently of Buddhi. The Mind-Principle is only the Spiritual Ego when me= rged into and one with Buddhi,--no materialist being supposed to have in hi= m such an Ego, however great his intellectual capacities. It is the perman= ent Individuality or the "Reincarnating Ego." ("The human Ego is neither At= man nor Buddhi, but the higher Manas...Karana Sarira (the "causal body") on= the plane of the Sutratma (thread soul), which is the golden thread on whi= ch, like beads, the various personalities of the Ego are strung." (SD II 7= 9) "HIGHER EGO"...it is the higher Manas illuminated by Buddhi, [Taijasi] the = principle of self-consciousness, the "I-am-I"...the Karana Sarira, the immo= rtal man which passes from one incarnation to another." ( see Trans. p. 63)= Key p. 176 =E2=80=9CThe Soul (Higher Manas) "is the PERCEIVER; is vision itself pure = and simple; and looks directly upon ideas." Pat. p. 26, DISCRIMINATOR [ faculties ] CHOOSER [ memory -- analogy -- comparison -- correspondence -- [ forgetting -- recollection -- reminiscence The "Perceiver" within, takes notice of. It then makes choices. In ancient Hindu philosophy the ten "senses" are called "Indriyas." There are five senses whereby knowledge is attained (Jnana-Indriyas), and a second five, through which action is performed (Karma-Indriyas). These are the "five roots producing Life Eternal." In Buddhism they are looked on as positive agents producing the "qualities." [T. Glossary, p. 155.] WILL A power we self-apply to memory, logic, attention, meaning. ACTION, IMAGINATION [ MENTAL & PSYCHIC IMAGES & ADJUSTMENTS ] ACTION [ PHYSICAL] "...the direction to perform actions and yet renounce their performance...t= he real actor is the mind, that acts...are the thoughts themselves...Duty, = and the final imperative--the "what ought I to do"--comes in here and becom= es a part of the process. (discrimination to be applied)...true meditation = is (thus) begun and will soon become permanent...[will acquire] a concentra= tion in time which will increase the real power of meditation. It is not m= editation to stare at a spot on the wall for a fixed period, or to remain f= or another space of time in a perfectly vacuous mental state which soon run= s into sleep...many students have run after these follies, ignoring the tru= e way.=20=20 The truth is, that the right method is not easy; it requires thought and m= ental effort, with persistence and faith...It will all depend on self-maste= ry. The self below will continually drag down the man who is not self-conq= uered...on the other side, the self is near to divinity, and when conquered= it becomes the friend and helper of the conqueror...Every effort we make i= n (intentness upon the Supreme Spirit)...will be preserved in the inner nat= ure and cannot be lost at death. It is a spiritual gain..." Gita Notes, pp= 127-130 "A perfect man is not made to order but is a product of evolution. Wisdom = is not a matter of book-learning but of growth. General rules for conduct = can be given, but to apply them properly, the power of discrimination is ne= cessary...A virtue, practiced without moderation, becomes a crime. To know= how to find the point of equilibrium is the great secret of the Adept, tha= t cannot be told but must be learned by experience, when sagacity and goodn= ess will be united in wisdom." HPB =E2=80=93 THEOSOPHY 47-441-2 -- THEOSOPHIST 1885 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D MANAS [ ENTITY OR FACULTY ? ] [ internal workings ] "The action of the entire universe is but a detailed manifestation and exam= ple of the action of mind on matter, governed at the highest point by the a= ction of the universal Mind. Between the finite human mind of the ordinary= uninitiated individual and this universal mind lie an infinite number of g= radually ascending degrees, and the higher the plane of consciousness the n= earer is the approach to the universal mind which is, as it were, the main-= spring of the whole. Although there are no hard and fast lines in nature y= et these various grades may be marked off into great main divisions; and i= t is the successive attainment of these, one after the other that is repres= ented by the degrees of initiation. When one plane of existence has been e= xhausted, there is needed, as it were, a fresh impulse to enable us to go o= n higher and this it is that is supplied at the time of initiation." "Alpha" Theosophist, June 1886 - [ ULT- T A & N p. 61 ] Here, then, we have Manas (or the Soul in general) in its two aspects: wh= en attaching itself to Anoia (our Kama rupa, or the "Animal Soul" in "Esote= ric Buddhism"), it runs towards entire annihilation, as far as the personal= Ego is concerned; when allying itself to the Nous (Atma-Buddhi) it merges= into the immortal, imperishable Ego, and then its spiritual consciousness = of the personal that was, becomes immortal." Key 93 "...the Manasa Devas who endowed man with the consciousness of his immortal= soul: that consciousness which hinders man "from foreseeing death," and m= akes him know he is immortal. ( Fn.: -- The monad of the animal is as immortal as that of man, yet the = brute knows nothing of this; it lives an animal life of sensation just as = the first human would have lived, when attaining physical development in th= e Third Race, had it not been for the Agnishwatta, and the Manasa Pitris.")= [Myth of Prometheus, further explained.] SD II 525 THINKING / FORGETTING / RECOLLECTING LOGIC MATHEMATICS RULES & LAWS THOUGHTS DETAILED / VAGUE=20 IMAGINATION CREATOR or CREATED ?=20 FANCY WILL=09=09 EXPRESSION [ externalizing ] [ communication ] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D PERCEPTION [ in-coming impressions ]=20 AWARENESS COGNITION ANALYSIS SYNTHESIS =09 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D LOWER MANAS [KAMA MANAS] [Desire-mind. Usually false and untruthful.] [ Exists only for this life. Limited by personal desires. ] [ Link between HIGHER MANAS and the Personality and Physical Body ] "The whole individuality is centred in the three middle Principles or third= (MANAS), and fifth (ASTRAL BODY) principles. During earthly life it is al= l in the fourth (KAMA-MANAS), the center of energy, volition--will...the in= dividuality survives...to run its seven-fold and upward course [ it ] has t= o assimilate to itself the eternal-life power residing but in the seventh (= ATMA), and then blend the three (4th, 5th & 7th) into one--the 6th (BUDDHI)= . Those who succeed in doing so become Buddhas, Dhyan Chohans, etc... The= chief object of our struggle and initiations is to achieve this union whil= e yet on this earth." M L 77-8 "One has to die in chrestos, i.e., kill one's personality and its passions,= to blot out every idea of separateness from one's "Father," the Divine Spi= rit in man' to become one with the eternal and absolute Life and Light (SAT= ) before one can reach the glorious state of Christos, the regenerated man,= the man in spiritual freedom." HPB ARTICLES III 190 fn "...Christ--the true esoteric Saviour--is no man, but the Divine Principle = in every human being. He who (169) strives to resurrect the Spirit crucifi= ed in him by his own terrestrial passions, and buried deep in the "sepulche= r" of his sinful flesh; he who has the strength to roll back the stone of = matter from the door of his own inner sanctuary, he has the risen Christ in= him. The "Son of Man" is no child of the bond-woman--flesh, but verily of= the free-woman--Spirit, the child of man's own deeds, and the fruit of his= own spiritual labour." HPB ARTICLES III 168-9 "Most of us believe in the survival of the Spiritual Ego, in Planetary Spir= its and Nirmanakayas, those great Adepts of the past ages, who, renouncing = their right to Nirvana, remain in our spheres of being, not as "spirits" bu= t as complete spiritual human Beings. Save their corporeal, visible envelo= pe, which they leave behind, they remain as they were, in order to help poo= r humanity, as far as can be done without sinning against Karmic law.=20=20 This is the "Great Renunciation," indeed; an incessant, conscious self-sac= rifice throughout aeons and ages till that day when the eyes of blind manki= nd will open and, instead of the few, all will see the universal truth. = =20 These Beings may well be regarded as God and Gods--if they would but allow = the fire in our hearts, at the thought of that purest of all sacrifices, to= be fanned into the flame of adoration, or the smallest altar in their hono= r. But they will not. Verily, "the secret heart is fair Devotion's (only)= temple," and any other in this case, would be no better than profane osten= tation." HPB ARTICLES III 204 "...unless the higher Self or Ego gravitates towards its Sun--the Monad--th= e lower Ego, or personal Self, will have the upper hand in every case. For= it is this Ego, with its fierce selfishness and animal desire to live a Se= nseless life (Tanha), which is the "maker of the tabernacle," as Buddha cal= ls it in Dhammapada..." SD II 110 INTERPRETATION PREJUDICE DEFENSIVE [of personal desires, likes & dislikes] FANCY HALLUCINATION TRANCE (?) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D HIGHER MANAS [BUDDHI MANAS] [ Virtuous truthful MIND ] [ reincarnating entity =E2=80=93 immortal ] [ Link between Personality and INDIVIDUAL SPIRIT ] "...[the Agnishwatta Pitris] were destined to incarnate as the Egos of the = forthcoming crop of Mankind. The human Ego is neither Atman nor Buddhi, bu= t the higher Manas: the intellectual fruition and the efflorescence of the= intellectual self-conscious Egotism--in the higher spiritual sense. The a= ncient works refer to it as Karana Sarira on the plane of the Sutratma, whi= ch is the golden thread on which, like beads, the various personalities of = this higher Ego are strung...these beings were returning Nirvanees, from pr= eceding Maha-Manvantaras--ages of incalculable duration..." S D II 79 "...the "Ego" in man is a monad that has gathered to itself innumerable exp= eriences through aeons of time, slowly unfolding its latent potencies throu= gh plane after plane of matter. It is hence called the "eternal pilgrim." The Manasic, or mind principle, is cosmic and universal. It is the creato= r of all forms, and the basis of all law in nature. Not so with consciousn= ess. Consciousness is a condition of the monad as a result of embodiment i= n matter and the dwelling in a physical form. Self-consciousness, which fr= om the animal plane looking upward is the beginning of perfection, from the= divine plane looking downwards is the perfection of selfishness and the cu= rse of separateness. it is the "world of illusion" that man has created fo= r himself. "Maya is the perceptive faculty of every Ego which considers it= self a Unit, separate from and independent of the One Infinite and Eternal = Sat or 'be-ness'," (SD I 329) The "eternal pilgrim" must therefore mount h= igher, and flee from the plane of self-consciousness it has struggled so ha= rd to reach." WQJ Art I 29 =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves = its distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it = of the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from th= e highest faculties of the Manas. The most spiritual--i.e., the highest an= d divinest aspirations of every personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh P= rinciple into Devachan (Swarga) after the death of the Monad...the individu= ality of the spirit-soul...is preserved to the end of the great cycle (Maha= -Manwantara) when each Ego enters Paranirvana, or is merged in Parabrahm...= however long the "night of Brahma" or even the Universal Pralaya...yet, whe= n it ends, the same individual Divine Monad resumes its majestic path of ev= olution, though on a higher, hundredfold perfected and more pure chain of e= arths (266) than before, and brings with it all the essence of compound spi= ritualities from its previous countless rebirths." HPB ARTICLES III 265-6 INTUITION [sense of virtue, law and truth ] DISCRIMINATION [ true / false, personal vs. equality of brotherhood ]=20 COGNITION AND APPLICATION OF LAW -- IMPERSONAL -- UNIVERSAL "... SPIRITUAL SOUL OR BUDDHI, in close union with Manas, the mind-principl= e, without which it is no Ego at all, but only the Atmic Vehicle. (passive = agent)..."Buddhi becomes conscious by the accretions it gets from Manas aft= er every new incarnation an death of man." (SD I 244) [see HPB Art. III, = 265 ] Key p. 176 "BUDDHI...The faculty of cognizing the channel through which divine knowled= ge reaches the Ego, the discernment of good and evil, "divine consciousness= ," "Spiritual Soul," the vehicle of Atma." SD I xix [see also SD I 17 119, 244, 570, 453; Key 175-6]=20=09 "AVALOKITESVARA..."When Buddhi absorbs our Egotism (destroys it) with all i= ts Vikharas [qualities, or attractions-TM 11-p. 23], Avalokitesvara [SD I-1= 08, II-178, Glos. 44, ML 90] becomes manifested to us, and Nirvana, or Muk= ti is reached...freedom from the trammels of Maya or illusion." SD I xix [see SD I xxi, 7, 132 II 615 Glos 211, 218, 232; ] STUDIOUS and ANXIOUS TO LEARN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D IGNORANCE [PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS II open def. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D INSANITY {Usual condition of the desire nature and passionate faculty} PSYCHOSIS [ Mind-desire self-deception ] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D EXPRESSION -- TEACHING =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D SOME QUOTES =E2=80=93 THEOSOPHY TEACHES: "The whole individuality is centred in the three middle Principles or third= (MANAS), and fifth (ASTRAL BODY) principles. During earthly life it is al= l in the fourth (KAMA-MANAS), the center of energy, volition--will...the in= dividuality survives...to run its seven-fold and upward course [ it ] has t= o assimilate to itself the eternal-life power residing but in the seventh (= ATMA), and then blend the three (4th, 5th & 7th) into one--the 6th (BUDDHI)= . Those who succeed in doing so become Buddhas, Dhyan Chohans, etc... The= chief object of our struggle and initiations is to achieve this union whil= e yet on this earth." M L 77-8 "Every form on earth and every speck (atom) in Space strives in its efforts= towards self-formation to follow the model placed for it in the "Heavenly = Man"...Its [atom's] involution and evolution, its external and internal gro= wth and development, have all one and the same object--man; man is the hig= hest physical and ultimate form on this earth; the MONAD in the absolute t= otality and awakened condition--as the culmination of the divine incarnatio= ns on Earth." S D I 183 PERFECTION THROUGH VIRTUE BUDDHIST TEACHINGS : - HPB =E2=80=9CNotwithstanding widespread misconceptions and errors =E2=80= =A6 Orientalists agree that the Buddha=E2=80=99s foremost aim was to lead h= uman beings to salvation by teaching them to practice the greatest purity a= nd virtue, and by detaching them from the service of this illusionary world= , and the love of one=E2=80=99s still more illusionary =E2=80=94 because so= evanescent and unreal =E2=80=94 body and physical self. And what is the good of a virtuous life, full of privations and suffer= ing, if the only result of it is to be annihilation at the end? If even th= e attainment of that supreme perfection which leads the Initiate to remembe= r the whole series of his past lives, and to foresee that of the future one= s, by the full development of that inner, divine eye in him, and to acquire= the knowledge that unfolds the causes1 of the ever-recurring cycles of exi= stence, brings him finally to non-being, and nothing more =E2=80=94 then t= he whole system is idiotic, and Epicureanism is far more philosophical than= such Buddhism. He who is unable to comprehend the subtle, and yet so potent, differen= ce between existence in a material or physical state and a purely spiritual= existence =E2=80=94 Spirit or =E2=80=9CSoul-life=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 will n= ever appreciate at their full value the grand teachings of the Buddha, even= in their exoteric form. Individual or personal existence is the cause of = pains and sorrows; collective and impersonal life-eternal is full of divine= bliss and joy for ever, with neither causes nor effects to darken its ligh= t. And the hope for such a life-eternal is the keynote of the whole of Bud= dhism.=20=20 If we are told that impersonal existence is no existence at all, but a= mounts to annihilation, as was maintained by some French reincarnationists,= then we would ask: What difference can it make in the spiritual perceptio= ns of an Ego whether he enter Nirv=C4=81na loaded with the recollections on= ly of his own personal lives =E2=80=94 tens of thousands according to the m= odern reincarnationists =E2=80=94 or whether merged entirely in the Parabra= hmic state, it becomes one with the All, with the absolute knowledge and th= e absolute feeling of representing collective humanities?=20=20 Once that an Ego lives only ten distinct individual lives he must nece= ssarily lose his one self, and become mixed up =E2=80=94 merged, so to say = =E2=80=94 with these ten selves. It really seems that so long as this grea= t mystery remains a dead letter to the world of Western thinkers, and espec= ially to the Orientalists, the less the latter undertake to explain it, the= better for Truth. Of all the existing religious Philosophies, Buddhism is the least unde= rstood. The Lassens, Webers, Wassilyev, the Burnoufs and Juliens, and even= such =E2=80=9Ceye-witnesses=E2=80=9D of Tibetan Buddhism as Csoma de K=C3= =B6r=C3=B6s and the Schlagintweits, have hitherto only added perplexity to = confusion. None of these has ever received his information from a genuine = Gelugpa source: all have judged Buddhism from the bits of knowledge picked = up at Tibetan frontier lamaseries, in countries thickly populated by Bhutan= ese and Lepchas, B=C3=B6ns, and red-capped Dugpas, along the line of the Hi= m=C4=81layas. Hundreds of volumes purchased from Buriats, Shamans, and Chi= nese Buddhists, have been read and translated, glossed and misinterpreted a= ccording to invariable custom.=20=20 Esoteric Schools would cease to be worthy of their name were their lit= erature and doctrines to become the property of even their profane co-relig= ionists =E2=80=94 still less of the Western public. =E2=80=A6. It is quite true that the primitive Sr=C4=81vakas (listeners or hearer= s) and the Sramanas (the =E2=80=9Cthought-restrainers=E2=80=9D and the =E2= =80=9Cpure=E2=80=9D) have degenerated, and that many Buddhist sects have fa= llen into mere dogmatism and ritualism.=20=20 Like every other Esoteric, half-suppressed teaching, the words of the = Buddha convey a double meaning, and every sect has gradually come to claim = to be the only one knowing the correct meaning, and thus to assume supremac= y over the rest. Schism has crept in, and has fastened, like a hideous can= cer, on the fair body of early Buddhism.=20=20 N=C4=81g=C4=81rjuna=E2=80=99s Mah=C4=81y=C4=81na (=E2=80=9CGreat Vehic= le=E2=80=9D) School was opposed by the H=C4=ABnay=C4=81na (or =E2=80=9CLitt= le Vehicle=E2=80=9D) System, and even the Yogachary=C4=81 of Ary=C4=81sanga= became disfigured by the yearly pilgrimage from India to the shores of Man= sarovara, of hosts of vagabonds with matted locks who play at being Yogins = and Fakirs, preferring this to work. An affected detestation of the world,= and the tedious and useless practice of the counting of inhalations and ex= halations as a means to produce absolute tranquillity of mind or meditation= , have brought this school within the region of Hatha-Yoga, and have made i= t heir to the Br=C4=81hmanical T=C4=ABrthikas. And though its Srot=C4=81pa= tti, its Sakrid=C4=81g=C4=81min, An=C4=81g=C4=81min, and Arhats,2 bear the = same names in almost every school, yet the doctrines of each differ greatly= , and none of these is likely to gain real Abhij=C3=B1as (the supernatural = abnormal five powers). One of the chief mistakes of the Orientalists when judging on =E2=80= =9Cinternal(?) evidence,=E2=80=9D as they express it, was that they assumed= that the Pratyeka-Buddhas, the Bodhisattvas, and the =E2=80=9CPerfect=E2= =80=9D Buddhas were a later development of Buddhism. For on these three chief degrees are based the seven and twelve degree= s of the Hierarchy of Adeptship. The first are those who have attained the= Bodhi (wisdom) of the Buddhas, but do not become Teachers.=20=20 The human Bodhisattvas are candidates, so to say, for perfect Buddhash= ip (in Kalpas to come), and with the option of using their powers now if ne= ed be.=20=20 =E2=80=9CPerfect=E2=80=9D Buddhas are simply =E2=80=9Cperfect=E2=80=9D= Initiates. All these are men, and not disembodied Beings, as is given out= in the H=C4=ABnay=C4=81na exoteric books. Their correct character may be = found only in the secret volumes of Lugrub or N=C4=81g=C4=81rjuna, the foun= der of the Mah=C4=81y=C4=81na system, who is said to have been initiated by= the N=C4=81gas (fabulous =E2=80=9CSerpents,=E2=80=9D the veiled name for a= n Initiate or Mahatma).=20=20 The fabled report found in Chinese records that N=C4=81g=C4=81rjuna co= nsidered his doctrine to be in opposition to that of Gautama Buddha, until = he discovered from the N=C4=81gas that it was precisely the doctrine that h= ad been secretly taught by S=C4=81kyamuni Himself, is an allegory, and is b= ased upon the reconciliation between the old Br=C4=81hmanical secret School= s in the Him=C4=81layas and Gautama=E2=80=99s Esoteric teachings, both part= ies having at first objected to the rival schools of the other.=20=20 The former, the parent of all others, had been established beyond the = Him=C4=81layas for ages before the appearance of S=C4=81kyamuni. Gautama w= as a pupil of this; and it was with them, those Indian Sages, that He had l= earned the truths of the Sunyata, the emptiness and impermanence of every t= errestrial, evanescent thing, and the mysteries of Praj=C3=B1a-P=C4=81ramit= =C4=81, or =E2=80=9Cknowledge across the River,=E2=80=9D which finally land= s the =E2=80=9CPerfect One=E2=80=9D in the regions of the One Reality.=20=20 But His Arhats were not Himself. Some of them were ambitious, and the= y modified certain teachings after the great councils, and it is on account= of these =E2=80=9Cheretics=E2=80=9D that the Mother-School at first refuse= d to allow them to blend their schools, when persecution began driving away= the Esoteric Brotherhood from India.=20=20 But when finally most of them submitted to the guidance and control of= the chief =C4=80shramas, then the Yogachary=C4=81 of =C4=80ry=C4=81sanga w= as merged into the oldest Lodge. For it is there from time immemorial that= has lain concealed the final hope and light of the world, the salvation of= mankind. Many are the names of that School and land, the name of the latt= er being now regarded by the Orientalists as the mythic name of a fabulous = country. It is from this mysterious land nevertheless, that the Hindu expe= cts his Kalki-Avat=C4=81ra, the Buddhist his Maitreya, the P=C4=81rs=C4=AB = his Saoshyant and the Jew his Messiah, and so would the Christian expect th= ence his Christ =E2=80=94 if he only knew of it. There, and there alone, reigns Parinishpanna (Yong-Gr=C3=BCb), the abs= olutely perfect comprehension of Being and Non-Being, the changeless true E= xistence in Spirit, even while the latter is seemingly still in the body, e= very inhabitant thereof being a Non-Ego because he has become the Perfect E= go. Their voidness is =E2=80=9Cself-existent and perfect=E2=80=9D =E2=80= =94 if there were profane eyes to sense and perceive it =E2=80=94 because i= t has become absolute; the unreal being transformed into conditionless Real= ity, and the realities of this, our world, having vanished in their own nat= ure into thin (non-existing) air.=20=20 The =E2=80=9CAbsolute Truth=E2=80=9D (Don-dampa=E2=80=99i-den pa; Sans= krit: Param=C4=81rthasatya), having conquered =E2=80=9Crelative truth=E2=80= =9D (Kun zab chi-den pa; Sanskrit: Samvritisatya), the inhabitants of the m= ysterious region are thus supposed to have reached the state called in myst= ic phraseology Svasamvedan=C4=81 (the =E2=80=9Cself-analyzing reflection=E2= =80=9D) and Param=C4=81rtha, or that absolute consciousness of the personal= merged into the impersonal Ego, which is above all, hence above illusion i= n every sense.=20=20 Its =E2=80=9CPerfect=E2=80=9D Buddhas and Bodhisattvas may be on every= nimble Buddhist tongue as celestial =E2=80=94 therefore unreachable Beings= , while these names may suggest and say nothing to the dull perceptions of = the European profane. What matters it to Those who, being in this world, y= et live outside and far beyond our illusive earth! Above Them there is but = one class of Nirv=C4=81n=C4=ABs, namely, the Cho-ku (Dharmak=C4=81ya), or t= he Nirv=C4=81n=C4=ABs =E2=80=9Cwithout remains=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 the pure = Arupa, the formless Breaths.3 Thence emerge occasionally the Bodhisattvas in their Tulpa=E2=80=99i-K= u (or Nirm=C4=81nak=C4=81ya) body and, assuming an ordinary appearance, the= y teach men. There are conscious, as well as unconscious, incarnations. = =E2=80=9C=20 [Extracted from Blavatsky: Collected Works, XIV, p. 432-37] H P B=20=20 --------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Dallas =20 From opt-mas@slingshot.co.nz Tue Jul 05 05:50:28 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: opt-mas@slingshot.co.nz X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53397 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2005 12:50:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2005 12:50:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.woosh.co.nz) (202.74.207.2) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2005 12:50:27 -0000 Received: from murray.slingshot.co.nz (202-74-201-118.ue.woosh.co.nz [202.74.201.118]) by woosh.co.nz (Rockliffe SMTPRA 6.1.20) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:49:04 +1200 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050706002546.02d29e30@pop3.slingshot.co.nz> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:48:40 +1200 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <1120564717.191.72662.m19@yahoogroups.com> References: <1120564717.191.72662.m19@yahoogroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Originating-IP: 202.74.207.2 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Murray Stentiford Subject: Re: reincarnation Re: Digest Number 2105 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=182846670; y=fu9kPHKGjE4ipS57W0JSdQpF35uw0cGn0j8W9OkTp8svMQ Cass, In my understanding, there are many occult schools and they differ considerably. They advise different physical and energetic conditions to advance the kind of work they do, and we can learn from their commonalities and their differences. Occult pupils and servers can and do do work in the world, in all its varied conditions, even to the most dense, dirty and dangerous. A refined and powerful soul can inhabit the roughest looking body, speak the rudest way, for the work that can be done in that body and those circumstances. For example, it often takes an ex drug addict to be able to convince kids at school that drugs are not the way to go; somebody is doing this service, and they had to be an addict to do it. I'm not talking specifically about HPB in saying this. So, it's easy to judge, and I don't see much point in holding one description up against another. There was a discussion on this list a while ago about why HPB would have taken drugs and smoked. I don't have a problem with that, as there is little point in comparing her case with what is advisable for most people. It is easy to get rigid and jingoistic about what constitutes the path of discipleship and what leads up to it. Nature is much broader than we know. And how was that sentence about the evolutionary/scientific debate related to the rest of this? Another example of a debate getting dirty and useless? Murray At 23:58 5/07/2005, Cass Silva wrote: >Hi Murray, >Just thought I would post this, there is something rotten in the State of >Denmark, me thinks. > >The evolutionary/scientific debate has diminished into a one sided mud >slinging event with no scientific answers coming forward. > Anand will be shrilling with joy over this. > >Cass > >"10- No animal food of whatever kind, nothing has life in it, should be >taken by the disciple. No wine, no spirits or opium should be used; for >these are like the Lhamaym (evil spirits), who fasten upon the unwary, they >devour the understanding." > - PRACTICAL OCCULTISM by H.P.BLAVATSKY [1] > > > My take on Copenhagen is that space is both > > full and empty at the same time. > > - Ed > >My take on the Copenhagen theory is that hypocrite Madame Blavatsky would >skip that Nordic chew city to instead head for Amsterdam to do her spacey >empty vision thing with a little legal hashish smoking mixed with opium >(compare above and below). [1] [2] > >J.Scott > >"HPB was penniless but said that she had wrote home to her relatives for >money and expected to receive it from the Russian Council at anytime. This >is how she survived in the home. She managed to divide the home into two >groups, those not liking her and those that did. She entertained the latter >group with stories of her life and by holding seances on Sunday nights. This >seemed to work until a newspaper took a dislike to her and accused her of >using hashish and opium." > >[1] PRACTICAL OCCULTISM by H.P.BLAVATSKY >http://www.anandgholap.net/Practical_Occultism-HPB.htm > >[2] Blavatsky, Helena Petrovna (1831-1891) >http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/b/blavatsky_helena_petrovna.html From compiler@wisdomworld.org Tue Jul 05 07:01:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85424 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2005 14:01:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2005 14:01:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ams013.ftl.affinity.com) (216.219.253.195) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2005 14:01:12 -0000 Received: from [69.251.45.208] ([69.251.45.208]:24583 "EHLO wisdomworld.org") by ams013.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id S377730AbVGEOBA (ORCPT ); Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:01:00 -0400 Message-ID: <42CAA093.D08F4991@wisdomworld.org> Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:00:35 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 216.219.253.195 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Compiler Subject: "KARMA & REINCARNATION" (many key Theosophical articles) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585; y=gfbA66PatZMxHZrjUGjW03CNeRgyFi3u8r1nrmrUwZbUli5vbGYX X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld Based on some of the discussions currently going on here, I present a lot of articles and series of articles from THEOSOPHY magazine that should prove to be very informative and useful to many readers, especially newcomers to theosophy. All of the headings and links to them are listed in this 7th of 18 sections that is found on the "Additional" articles index page of my WisdomWorld.org web site that is entitled "KARMA & REINCARNATION": http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#7 ========================================= Dear newcomers to Theosophy: I sincerely do hope that my web site offers a well-rounded overall view of Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement. The 3 main links to everything on it are found below. Please know that I'm only the compiler of all the articles found on my web site; I'm not a scholar; and also that I personally do not like to take part in conversations, even though I do hope that what I present from time to time will help a little in the discussions being carried on by others. So please do not be insulted when I do not respond if someone addresses me, or addresses anything that is found in any of the articles on my web site; I leave that for others to deal with if they want to -- whether pro, con, neutral, friendly or unfriendly. John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added (which contains 18 sections that can each be clicked on at the top of the page in order to go directly down to them, as well as to get the link to any particular section that you may want to use in a posting on a discussion board, or in an e-mail to someone): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html "PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT FORUM": This next link is to the most updated version of my economic proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering world that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org ------- From bta101@hotmail.com Tue Jul 05 14:32:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: bta101@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53052 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2005 21:32:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2005 21:32:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.48) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jul 2005 21:32:48 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n19.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jul 2005 21:32:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.89] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Jul 2005 21:32:45 -0000 Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:32:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 296 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.48 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 64.174.145.158 From: "bta1012003" Subject: Numbers X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=118449510; y=U-T_65srBgy_EJTcjCw5_2Qjis7lvNR65rHcSVsoRqXeuq5nZw X-Yahoo-Profile: bta1012003 Dear Friends: I would like to do a little research on the symbolic meaning and significance of different numbers, like one represents unity, two represents duality, three the triangle, etc. Can someone suggest where I would find this subject in the HPB writings? Thank you in advance, bta From waking.adept@gmail.com Tue Jul 05 18:30:37 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: waking.adept@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18245 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2005 01:30:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jul 2005 01:30:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO wproxy.gmail.com) (64.233.184.202) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 2005 01:30:36 -0000 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i1so1124111wra for ; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.47.69 with SMTP id u69mr38707wru; Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.118.9 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:30:33 -0400 To: Theosophy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Originating-IP: 64.233.184.202 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Mark Hamilton Jr." Reply-To: "Mark Hamilton Jr." Subject: To Occultists (Re: Radionics Devices) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=219719026 I got my egely wheel today, and I've been fiddling with it for the past 5 or 6 hours. I have to say, the device is beyond baffling. I thought the wheel was actually going to be a large metal sprocket, but it is actually paper-thin and is not connected to the device (it balances on a pin of sorts). I tried for the first 3 hours to discredit it somehow. I figured the spinning must be somehow related to convection, through air currents from your breath or the air. Air currents do effect the device, but this is mentioned in the pamphlet (it is recommended you stay in a draft-free room). When I put a plastic box over the top the device stops. Is the box blocking the qi as well? I notice the device works effectively at a distance. Is it just coincidence? I honestly have no clue how the device works. My results are completely inconclusive. I have 29 days to figure it out before the return policy expires. -Mark H. --=20 Mark Hamilton Jr. waking.adept@gmail.com From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jul 06 04:59:48 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76044 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2005 11:59:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jul 2005 11:59:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 2005 11:59:38 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.61] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dq8Yp-0004rD-SM; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:59:36 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 04:59:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c58222$28304c40$3d92b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79285b78f28824f204bbbee7895ab5e138350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: INTELLIGENT DESIGN KOSMIC MIND PART II X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=fNRc9ow3jGS9HpruulZ0fj4UlnFqx6__kFIw5qOFqCdyBQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 KOSMIC MIND PART II Among hundreds of accusations against Asiatic nations of degrading superstitions, based on "crass ignorance," there exists no more serious denunciation than that which accuses and convicts them of personifying and even deifying the chief organs of, and in, the human body. Indeed, do not w= e hear these "benighted fools" of Hindus speaking of the small-pox as a goddess--thus personifying the microbes of the variolic virus? Do we not read about Tantrikas, a sect of mystics, giving proper names to nerves, cells and arteries, connecting and identifying various parts of the body with deities, endowing functions and physiological processes with intelligence, and what not? The vertebr=E6, fibers, ganglia, the cord, etc.= , of the spinal column; the heart, its four chambers, auricle and ventricle, valves and the rest; stomach, liver, lungs and spleen, everything has its special deific name, is believed to act consciously and to act under the potent will of the Yogi, whose head and heart are the seats of Brahm=E2 and the various parts of whose body are all the pleasure grounds of this or another deity!=20 This is indeed ignorance. Especially when we think that the said organs, an= d the whole body of man are composed of cells, and these cells are now being recognised as individual organisms and-- quien sabe --will come perhaps to be recognized some day as an independent race of thinkers inhabiting the globe, called man! It really looks like it. For was it not hitherto believe= d that all the phenomena of assimilation and sucking in of food by the intestinal canal, could be explained by the laws of diffusion and endosmosis? And now, alas, physiologists have come to learn that the action of the intestinal canal during the act of absorbing, is not identical with the action of the non-living membrane in the dialyser. It is now well demonstrated that-- this wall is covered with epithelium cells, each of which is an organism per se, a living being, and with very complex functions. We know further, that such a cell assimilates food--by means of active contractions of its protoplasmic body--in a manner as mysterious as that which we notice in the independent Am=9Cba and animalcules. We can observe on the intestinal epithelium of the cold-blooded animals how these cells project shoots--pseudopodi=E6--out of their contractive, bare, protoplasmic bodies--which pseudopodi=E6, or false feet, fish out of the fo= od drops of fat, suck them into their protoplasm and send it further, toward the lymph-duct. . . . The lymphatic cells issuing from the nests of the adipose tissue, and squeezing themselves through the epithelium cells up to the surface of the intestines, absorb therein the drops of fat and loaded with their prey, travel homeward to the lymphatic canals. So long as this active work of the cells remained unknown to us, the fact that while the globules of fat penetrated through the walls of the intestines into lymphatic channels, the smallest of pigmental grains introduced into the intestines did not do so,--remained unexplained. But to-day we know, that this faculty of selecting their special food--of assimilating the useful an= d rejecting the useless and the harmful -- is common to all the unicellular organisms. 5=20 And the lecturer queries, why, if this discrimination in the selection of food exists in the simplest and most elementary of the cells, in the formless and structureless protoplasmic drops--why it should not exist also in the epithelium cells of our intestinal canal. Indeed, if the Vampyrella recognises its much beloved Spirogyra, among hundreds of other plants as shown above, why should not the epithelium cell, sense, choose and select its favorite drop of fat from a pigmental grain? But we will be told that "sensing, choosing, and selecting" pertain only to reasoning beings, at least to the instinct of more structural animals than is the protoplasmic cell outside or inside man. Agreed; but as we translate from the lecture of a learned physiologist and the works of other learned naturalists, we can only say, that these learned gentlemen must know what they are talking about; though they are probably ignorant of the fact that their scientific prose is but one degree removed from the ignorant, superstitious, but rathe= r poetical "twaddle" of the Hindu Yogis and Tantrikas.=20 Anyhow, our professor of physiology falls foul of the materialistic theorie= s of diffusion and endosmosis. Armed with the facts of the evident discrimination and a mind in the cells, he demonstrates by numerous instances the fallacy of trying to explain certain physiological processes by mechanical theories; such for instance as the passing of sugar from the liver (where it is transformed into glucose) into the blood. Physiologists find great difficulty in explaining this process, and regard it as an impossibility to bring it under the endosmosic laws. In all probability the lymphatic cells play just as active a part during the absorption of alimentary substances dissolved in water, as the peptics do, a process well demonstrated by F. Hofmeister.6 Generally speaking, poor convenient endosmose is dethroned and exiled from among the active functionaries of th= e human body as a useless sinecurist. It has lost its voice in the matter of glands and other agents of secretion, in the action of which the same epithelium cells have replaced it. The mysterious faculties of selection, o= f extracting from the blood one kind of substance and rejecting another, of transforming the former by means of decomposition and synthesis, of directing some of the products into passages which will throw them out of the body and redirecting others into lymphatic and blood vessels--such is the work of the cells. "It is evident that in all this there is not the slightest hint at diffusion or endosmose," says the Basle physiologist. "It becomes entirely useless to try and explain these phenomena by chemical laws."=20 But perhaps physiology is luckier in some other department? Failing in the laws of alimentation, it may have found some consolation for its mechanical theories in the question of the activity of muscles and nerves, which it sought to explain by electric laws? Alas, save in a few fishes--in no other living organisms, least of all in the human body, could it find any possibility of pointing out electric currents as the chief ruling agency. Electrobiology on the lines of pure dynamic electricity has egregiously failed. Ignorant of "Fohat" no electrical currents suffice to explain to it either muscular or nervous activity!=20 But there is such a thing as the physiology of external sensations. Here we are no longer on terra incognita, and all such phenomena have already found purely physical explanations. No doubt, there is the phenomenon of sight, the eye with its optical apparatus, its camera obscura. But the fact of the sameness of the reproduction of things in the eye, according to the same laws of refraction as on the plate of a photographic machine, is no vital phenomenon. The same may be reproduced on a dead eye. The phenomenon of lif= e consists in the evolution and development of the eye itself. How is this marvellous and complicated work produced? To this physiology replies, "We d= o not know"; for, toward the solution of this great problem--=20 Physiology has not yet made one single step. True, we can follow the sequence of the stages of the development and formation of the eye, but why it is so and what is the causal connection, we have absolutely no idea. The second vital phenomenon of the eye is its accommodating activity. And here we are again face to face with the functions of nerves and muscles--our old insoluble riddles. The same may be said of all the organs of sense. The sam= e also relates to other departments of physiology. We had hoped to explain th= e phenomena of the circulation of the blood by the laws of hydrostatics or hydrodynamics. Of course the blood moves in accordance with the hydrodynamical laws: but its relation to them remains utterly passive. As t= o the active functions of the heart and the muscles of its vessels, no one, s= o far, has ever been able to explain them by physical laws.=20 The underlined words in the concluding portion of the able Professor's lecture are worthy of an Occultist. Indeed, he seems to be repeating an aphorism from the "Elementary Instructions" of the esoteric physiology of practical Occultism:--=20 The riddle of life is found in the active functions of a living organism,7 the real perception of which activity we can get only through self-observation, and not owing to our external senses; by observations on our will, so far as it penetrates our consciousness, thus revealing itself to our inner sense. Therefore, when the same phenomenon acts only on our external senses, we recognize it no longer. We see everything that takes place around and near the phenomenon of motion, but the essence of that phenomenon we do not see at all, because we lack for it a special organ of receptivity. We can accept that esse in a mere hypothetical way, and do so, in fact, when we speak of "active functions." Thus does every physiologist, for he cannot go on without such hypothesis; and this is a first experiment of a psychological explanation of all vital phenomena. . . . And if it is demonstrated to us that we are unable with the help only of physics and chemistry to explain the phenomena of life, what may we expect from other adjuncts of physiology, from the sciences of morphology, anatomy, and histology? I maintain that these can never help us to unriddle the problem of any of the mysterious phenomena of life. For, after we have succeeded with the help of scalpel and microscope in dividing the organisms into thei= r most elementary compounds, and reached the simplest of cells, it is just here that we find ourselves face to face with the greatest problem of all. The simplest monad, a microscopical point of protoplasm, form less and structureless, exhibits yet all the essential vital functions, alimentation= , growth, breeding, motion, feeling and sensuous perception, and even such functions which replace "consciousness"--the soul of the higher animals!=20 The problem--for Materialism--is a terrible one, indeed! Shall our cells, and infinitesimal monads in nature, do for us that which the arguments of the greatest Pantheistic philosophers have hitherto failed to do? Let us hope so. And if they do, then the "superstitious and ignorant" Eastern Yogis, and even their exoteric followers, will find themselves vindicated. For we hear from the same physiologist that--=20 A large number of poisons are prevented by the epithelium cells from penetrating into lymphatic spaces, though we know that they are easily decomposed in the abdominal and intestinal juices. More than this. Physiology is aware that by injecting these poisons directly into the blood= , they will separate from, and reappear through the intestinal walls, and tha= t in this process the lymphatic cells take a most active part.=20 If the reader turns to Webster's Dictionary he will find therein a curious explanation at the words "lymphatic" and "Lymph." Etymologists think that the Latin word lympha is derived from the Greek nymphe, "a nymph or inferio= r Goddess," they say. "The Muses were sometimes called nymphs by the poets. Hence (according to Webster) all persons in a state of rapture, as seers, poets, madmen, etc., were said to be caught by the nymphs."=20 The Goddess of Moisture (the Greek and Latin nymph or lymph, then) is fable= d in India as being born from the pores of one of the Gods, whether the Ocean God, Varuna, or a minor "River God" is left to the particular sect and fanc= y of the believers. But the main question is, that the ancient Greeks and Latins are thus admittedly known to have shared in the same "superstitions" as the Hindus. This superstition is shown in their maintaining to this day that every atom of matter in the four (or five) Elements is an emanation from an inferior God or Goddess, himself or herself an earlier emanation from a superior deity; and, moreover, that each of these atoms--being Brahm=E2, one of whose names is Anu, or atom--no sooner is it emanated than= it becomes endowed with consciousness, each of its kind, and free-will, acting within the limits of law. Now, he who knows that the kosmic trimurti (trinity) composed of Brahm=E2, the Creator; Vishnu, the Preserver; and Siv= a, the Destroyer, is a most magnificent and scientific symbol of the material Universe and its gradual evolution; and who finds a proof of this, in the etymology of the names of these deities,8 plus the doctrines of Gupta Vidya= , or esoteric knowledge--knows also how to correctly understand this "superstition." The five fundamental titles of Vishnu--added to that of Anu (atom) common to all the trimurtic personages--which are, Bhut=E2tman, one with the created or emanated materials of the world; Pradhan=E2tman, "one w= ith the senses;" Param=E2tman, "Supreme Soul"; and Atman, Kosmic Soul, or the Universal Mind--show sufficiently what the ancient Hindus meant by endowing with mind and consciousness every atom and giving it a distinct name of a God or a Goddess. Place their Pantheon, composed of 30 crores (or 300 millions) of deities within the macrocosm (the Universe), or inside the microcosm (man), and the number will not be found overrated, since they relate to the atoms, cells, and molecules of everything that is.=20 This, no doubt, is too poetical and abstruse for our generation, but it seems decidedly as scientific, if not more so, than the teachings derived from the latest discoveries of Physiology and Natural History.=20 Lucifer, April, 1890=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 1 Vide "Secret Doctrine," vol. i, pp. 2 and 3. 2 From a paper read by him some time ago at a public lecture. 3 L. Cienkowsky. See his work Beitraege zur Kentniss der Monaden, Archiv f. mikroskop, Anatomie.=20 4 Loc. Cit, Pfluger's Archiv. Bd. II, S. 387. 5 From the paper read by the Professor of physiology at the University of Basle, previously quoted. 6 Untersuchungen ueber Resorption u. Assimilation der Naehrstoffe (Archiv. f. Experimentalle Pathologie und Pharmakologie, Bd. XIX, 1885).=20 7 Life and activity are but two different names for the same idea, or, what is still more correct, they are two words with which the men of science connect no definite idea whatever. Nevertheless, and perhaps just for that, they are obliged to use them, for they contain the point of contact between the most difficult problems over which, in fact, the greatest thinkers of the materialistic school have ever tripped.=20 8 Brahm=E2 comes from the root brih, "to expand," to "scatter"; Vishnu from the root vis or vish (phonetically) "to enter into," "to pervade" the universe, of matter. As to Siva--the patron of the Yogis, the etymology of his name would remain incomprehensible to the casual reader.=20 ---------------------------------------- Dallas Dallas =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jul 06 05:00:18 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80796 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2005 12:00:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jul 2005 12:00:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 2005 12:00:17 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.61] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dq8ZG-0004rD-Ba; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:59:55 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 04:59:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000a01c58222$37f4b490$3d92b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7991219ab276eb80b69ff40b7ee02f9384350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: NUMBERS, GEOMETRY, SYMBOLOGY AND SYMBOLISM X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=Y1XAcF7casU5Lfx6zsarwl-prHMgLENN7USfsd-sZa1zeg X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 July 6 2005 Dear Friend: Re: NUMBERS, GEOMETRY, SYMBOLOGY AND SYMBOLISM May I suggest going to THEOSOPHICAL UNIVERSITY PRESS www.theosociety.org/tupress/ [Offers full range of Theosophical Texts] They have an excellent INDEX to the SECRET DOCTRINE The references on numbers, geometrical figures, symbolism and symbology are well displayed. If you open the SECRET DOCTRINE at p. 4, Vol. 1 you will start finding explanations. Additionally: see the LIST OF CONTENTS of both Vol. 1 and II of the SECRET DOCTRINE as there are many hundred of pages listed giving a survey of the use of numbers and symbols. Best wishes, Dallas ================================== -----Original Message----- From: bta1012003 Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:33 PM To: Subject: Numbers and SYMBOLS Dear Friends: I would like to do a little research on the symbolic meaning and significance of different numbers, like one represents unity, two represents duality, three the triangle, etc. Can someone suggest where I would find this subject in the HPB writings? Thank you in advance, bta Yahoo! Groups Links From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jul 06 10:20:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66659 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2005 11:59:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Jul 2005 11:59:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jul 2005 11:59:52 -0000 Received: from [209.179.146.61] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dq8Yi-0004rD-9j; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:59:26 -0400 To: , "AA-BNStudy" Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 04:59:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c58222$23abfca0$3d92b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <200507032211.j63MB5101921@1004113.vservers.com> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79c15123f28cd8dbdc0e0196775f80ef6b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: KOSMIC MIND PART I INTELLIGENT DESIGN X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=J_eGCjzkEawZZWfmq8UQd7I4dkOdRRMJW86mESWNGlnm9g X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 July 6 2005 Reed rote: Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 3:11 PM Subject: Blavatsky Net Newsletter July 1, 2005 "My real intent in writing this newsletter was to prepare a sound foundation of Blavatsky's views as a basis for discussing in the light of Theosophy the current debate on "intelligent design" (ID)." ---------------------------------------- I found HPB had offered a survey of this in her article: KOSMIC MIND H. P. Blavatsky Whatsoever quits the Laya (homogeneous) state, becomes active conscious life. Individual consciousness emanates from, and returns into Absolute consciousness, which is eternal MOTION. (Esoteric Axioms.) Whatever that be which thinks, which understands, which wills, which acts, it is something celestial and divine, and upon that account must necessarily be eternal. --CICERO EDISON'S conception of matter was quoted in our March editorial article. Th= e great American electrician is reported by Mr. G. Parsons Lathrop in Harper'= s Magazine as giving out his personal belief about the atoms being "possessed by a certain amount of intelligence," and shown indulging in other reveries of this kind. For this flight of fancy the February Review of Reviews takes the inventor of the phonograph to task and critically remarks that "Edison is much given to dreaming," his "scientific imagination" being constantly a= t work.=20 Would to goodness the men of science exercised their "scientific imagination" a little more and their dogmatic and cold negations a little less. Dreams differ. In that strange state of being which, as Byron has it, puts us in a position "with seal'd eyes to see," one often perceives more real facts than when awake. Imagination is, again, one of the strongest elements in human nature, or in the words of Dugald Stewart it "is the grea= t spring of human activity, and the principal source of human improvement. . = . . Destroy the faculty, and the condition of men will become as stationary a= s that of brutes." It is the best guide of our blind senses, without which th= e latter could never lead us beyond matter and its illusions. The greatest discoveries of modern science are due to the imaginative faculty of the discoverers. But when has anything new been postulated, when a theory clashing with and contradicting a comfortably settled predecessor put forth= , without orthodox science first sitting on it, and trying to crush it out of existence? Harvey was also regarded at first as a "dreamer and a madman to boot. Finally, the whole of modem science is formed of "working hypotheses,= " the fruits of "scientific imagination" as Mr. Tyndall felicitously called it.=20 Is it then, because consciousness in every universal atom and the possibility of a complete control over the cells and atoms of his body by man, have not been honored so far with the imprimatur of the Popes of exact science, that the idea is to be dismissed as a dream? Occultism gives the same teaching. Occultism tells us that every atom, like the monad of Leibnitz, is a little universe in itself; and that every organ and cell in the human body is endowed with a brain of its own, with memory, therefore, experience and discriminative powers. The idea of Universal Life composed o= f individual atomic lives is one of the oldest teachings of esoteric philosophy, and the very modern hypothesis of modern science, that of crystalline life, is the first ray from the ancient luminary of knowledge that has reached our scholars. If plants can be shown to have nerves and sensations and instinct (but another word for consciousness), why not allow the same in the cells of the human body? Science divides matter into organi= c and inorganic bodies, only because it rejects the idea of absolute life and a life-principle as an entity: otherwise it would be the first to see that absolute life cannot produce even a geometrical point, or an atom inorganic in its essence. But Occultism, you see, "teaches mysteries" they say; and mystery is the negation of common sense, just as again metaphysics is but a kind of poetry, according to Mr. Tyndall. There is no such thing for scienc= e as mystery; and therefore, as a Life Principle is, and must remain for the intellects of our civilized races for ever a mystery on physical lines--the= y who deal in this question have to be of necessity either fools or knaves.=20 Dixit. Nevertheless, we may repeat with a French preacher: "mystery is the fatality of science." Official science is surrounded on every side and hedged in by unapproachable, for ever impenetrable mysteries. And why? Simply because physical science is self-doomed to a squirrel-like progress around a wheel of matter limited by our five senses. And though it is as confessedly ignorant of the formation of matter, as of the generation of a simple cell; though it is as powerless to explain what is this, that, or th= e other, it will yet dogmatize and insist on what life, matter and the rest are not. It comes to this: the words of Father Felix addressed fifty years ago to the French academicians have nearly become immortal as a truism. "Gentlemen," he said, "you throw into our teeth the reproach that we teach mysteries. But imagine whatever science you will; follow the magnificent sweep of its deductions. . . . and when you arrive at its parent source you come face to face with the unknown!"=20 Now to lay at rest once for all in the minds of Theosophists this vexed question, we intend to prove that modern science, owing to physiology, is itself on the eve of discovering that consciousness is universal--thus justifying Edison's "dreams." But before we do this, we mean also to show that though many a man of science is soaked through and through with such belief, very few are brave enough to openly admit it, as the late Dr. Pirogoff of St. Petersburg has done in his posthumous Memoirs. Indeed that great surgeon and pathologist raised by their publication quite a howl of indignation among his colleagues. How then? the public asked: He, Dr. Pirogoff, whom we regarded as almost the embodiment of European learning, believing in the superstitions of crazy alchemists? He, who in the words of a contemporary:--=20 was the very incarnation of exact science and methods of thought; who had dissected hundreds and thousands of human organs, making himself as acquainted with all the mysteries of surgery and anatomy as we are with our familiar furniture; the savant for whom physiology had no secrets and who, above all men was one to whom Voltaire might have ironically asked whether he had not found immortal soul between the bladder and the blind gut,--that same Pirogoff is found after his death devoting whole chapters in his literary Will to the scientific demonstration. . . . Novoye Vremya of 1887.= =20 --Of what? Why, of the existence in every organism of a distinct "VITAL FORCE" independent of any physical or chemical process. Like Liebig he accepted the derided and tabooed homogeneity of nature--a Life Principle--that persecuted and hapless teleology, or the science of the final causes of things, which is as philosophical as it is unscientific, if we have to believe imperial and royal academies. His unpardonable sin in th= e eyes of dogmatic modern science, however, was this: The great anatomist and surgeon, had the "hardihood" to declare in his Memoirs, that:--=20 We have no cause to reject the possibility of the existence of organisms endowed with such properties that would make of them--the direct embodiment of the universal mind--a perfection inaccessible to our own (human) mind. . . . Because, we have no right to maintain that man is the last expression o= f the divine creative thought.=20 Such are the chief features of the heresy of one, who ranked high among the men of exact science of this age. His Memoirs show plainly that not only he believed in Universal Deity, divine Ideation, or the Hermetic "Thought divine," and a Vital Principle, but taught all this, and tried to demonstrate it scientifically. Thus he argues that Universal Mind needs no physico-chemical, or mechanical brain as an organ of transmission. He even goes so far as to admit it in these suggestive words:--=20 Our reason must accept in all necessity an infinite and eternal Mind which rules and governs the ocean of life. . . . Thought and creative ideation, i= n full agreement with the laws of unity and causation, manifest themselves plainly enough in universal life without the participation of brain-slush. = . . . Directing the forces and elements toward the formation of organisms, this organizing life-principle becomes self-sentient, self-conscious, racia= l or individual. Substance, ruled and directed by the life-principle, is organised according to a general defined plan into certain types. . . .=20 He explains this belief by confessing that never, during his long life so full of study, observation, and experiments, could he-- acquire the conviction, that our brain could be the only organ of thought in the whole universe, that everything in this world, save that organ, should be unconditioned and senseless, and that human thought alone should impart to the universe a meaning and a reasonable harmony in its integrity.=20 And he adds =E0 propos of Moleschott's materialism:--=20 Howsoever much fish and peas I may eat, never shall I consent to give away my Ego into durance vile of a product casually extracted by modern alchemy from the urine. If, in our conceptions of the Universe it be our fate to fall into illusions, then my "illusion" has, at least, the advantage of being very consoling. For, it shows to me an intelligent Universe and the activity of Forces working in it harmoniously and intelligently; and that m= y "I" is not the product of chemical and histological elements but an embodiment of a common universal Mind. The latter, I sense and represent to myself as acting in free will and consciousness in accordance with the same laws which are traced for the guidance of my own mind, but only exempt from that restraint which trammels our human conscious individuality.=20 For, as remarks elsewhere this great and philosophic man of Science:--=20 The limitless and the eternal, is not only a postulate of our mind and reason, but also a gigantic fact, in itself. What would become of our ethical or moral principle were not the everlasting and integral truth to serve it as a foundation!=20 The above selections translated verbatim from the confessions of one who wa= s during his long life a star of the first magnitude in the fields of pathology and surgery, show him imbued and soaked through with the philosophy of a reasoned and scientific mysticism. In reading the Memoirs o= f that man of scientific fame, we feel proud of finding him accepting, almost wholesale, the fundamental doctrines and beliefs of Theosophy. With such an exceptionally scientific mind in the ranks of mystics, the idiotic grins, the cheap satires and flings at our great Philosophy by some European and American "Freethinkers," become almost a compliment. More than ever do they appear to us like the frightened discordant cry of the night-owl hurrying t= o hide in its dark ruins before the light of the morning Sun.=20 The progress of physiology itself, as we have just said, is a sure warrant that the dawn of that day when a full recognition of a universally diffused mind will be an accomplished fact, is not far off. It is only a question of time.=20 For, notwithstanding the boast of physiology, that the aim of its researche= s is only the summing up of every vital function in order to bring them into = a definite order by showing their mutual relations to, and connection with, the laws of physics and chemistry, hence, in their final form with mechanical laws--we fear there is a good deal of contradiction between the confessed object and the speculations of some of the best of our modern physiologists. While few of them would dare to return as openly as did Dr. Pirogoff to the "exploded superstition" of vitalism and the severely exiled life principle, the principium vit=E6 of Paracelsus--yet physiology stands sorely perplexed in the face of its ablest representatives before certain facts. Unfortunately for us, this age of ours is not conducive to the development of moral courage. The time for most to act on the noble idea of " principia non homines," has not yet come. And yet there are exceptions to the general rule, and physiology--whose destiny it is to become the hand-maiden of Occult truths--has not let the latter remain without their witnesses. There are those who are already stoutly protesting against certain hitherto favorite propositions. For instance, some physiologists ar= e already denying that it is the forces and substances of so-called "inanimate" nature, which are acting exclusively in living beings. For, as they well argue:--=20 The fact that we reject the interference of other forces in living things, depends entirely on the limitations of our senses. We use, indeed, the same organs for our observations of both animate and inanimate nature; and these organs can receive manifestations of only a limited realm of motion. Vibrations passed along the fibres of our optic nerves to the brain reach our perceptions through our consciousness as sensations of light and color; vibrations affecting our consciousness through our auditory organs strike u= s as sounds; all our feelings, through whichever of our senses, are due to nothing but motions.=20 Such are the teachings of physical Science, and such were in their roughest outlines those of Occultism, =E6ons and millenniums back. The difference, however, and most vital distinction between the two teachings, is this: official science sees in motion simply a blind, unreasoning force or law; Occultism, tracing motion to its origin, identifies it with the Universal Deity, and calls this eternal ceaseless motion--the "Great Breath." 1=20 Nevertheless, however limited the conception of Modern Science about the said Force, still it is suggestive enough to have forced the following remark from a great Scientist, the present professor of physiology at the University of Basle, 2 who speaks like an Occultist.=20 It would be folly in us to expect to be ever able to discover, with the assistance only of our external senses, in animate nature that something which we are unable to find in the inanimate.=20 And forthwith the lecturer adds that man being endowed "in addition to his physical senses with an inner sense," a perception which gives him the possibility of observing the states and phenomena of his own consciousness, "he has to use that in dealing with animate nature"--a profession of faith verging suspiciously on the borders of Occultism. He denies, moreover, the assumption, that the states and phenomena of consciousness represent in substance the same manifestations of motion as in the external world, and bases his denial by the reminder that not all of such states and manifestations have necessarily a spatial extension. According to him that only is connected with our conception of space which has reached our consciousness through sight, touch, and the muscular sense, while all the other senses, all the effects, tendencies, as all the interminable series o= f representations, have no extension in space but only in time.=20 Thus he asks:--=20 Where then is there room in this for a mechanical theory? Objectors might argue that this is so only in appearance, while in reality all these have a spatial extension. But such an argument would be entirely erroneous. Our sole reason for believing that objects perceived by the senses have such extension in the external world, rests on the idea that they seem to do so, as far as they can be watched and observed through the senses of sight and touch. With regard, however, to the realm of our inner senses even that supposed foundation loses its force and there is no ground for admitting it= . The winding up argument of the lecturer is most interesting to Theosophists= . Says this physiologist of the modern school of Materialism--=20 Thus, a deeper and more direct acquaintance with our inner nature unveils t= o us a world entirely unlike the world represented to us by our external senses, and reveals the most heterogeneous faculties, shows objects having nought to do with spatial extension, and phenomena absolutely disconnected with those that fall under mechanical laws.=20 Hitherto the opponents of vitalism and "life-principle," as well as the followers of the mechanical theory of life, based their views on the supposed fact, that, as physiology was progressing forward, its students succeeded more and more in connecting its functions with the laws of blind matter. All those manifestations that used to be attributed to a "mystical life-force," they said, may be brought now under physical and chemical laws= . And they were, and still are loudly clamoring for the recognition of the fact that it is only a question of time when it will be triumphantly demonstrated that the whole vital process, in its grand totality, represent= s nothing more mysterious than a very complicated phenomenon of motion, exclusively governed by the forces of inanimate nature.=20 But here we have a professor of physiology who asserts that the history of physiology proves, unfortunately for them, quite the contrary; and he pronounces these ominous words:--=20 I maintain that the more our experiments and observations are exact and many-sided, the deeper we penetrate into facts, the more we try to fathom and speculate on the phenomena of life, the more we acquire the conviction, that even those phenomena that we had hoped to be already able to explain b= y physical and chemical laws, are in reality unfathomable. They are vastly more complicated, in fact; and as we stand at present, they will not yield to any mechanical explanation.=20 This is a terrible blow at the puffed-up bladder known as Materialism, whic= h is as empty as it is dilated. A Judas in the camp of the apostles of negation--the "animalists"! But the Basle professor is no solitary exception, as we have just shown; and there are several physiologists who are of his way of thinking; indeed some of them going so far as to almost accept free-will and consciousness, in the simplest monadic protoplasms!=20 One discovery after the other tends in this direction. The works of some German physiologists are especially interesting with regard to cases of consciousness and positive discrimination--one is almost inclined to say thought--in the Am=9Cbas. Now the Am=9Cbas or animalcul=E6 are, as all know= , microscopical protoplasms--as the Vampyrella Sirogyra for instance, a most simple elementary cell, a protoplasmic drop, formless and almost structureless. And yet it shows in its behavior something for which zoologists, if they do not call it mind and power of reasoning, will have t= o find some other qualification, and coin a new term. For see what Cienkowsky 3 says of it. Speaking of this microscopical, bare, reddish cell he describes the way in which it hunts for and finds among a number of other aquatic plants one called Spirogyra, rejecting every other food. Examining its peregrinations under a powerful microscope, he found it when moved by hunger, first projecting its pseudopodi=E6 (false feet) by the help of whic= h it crawls. Then it commences moving about until among a great variety of plants it comes across a Spirogyra, after which it proceeds toward the cellulated portion of one of the cells of the latter, and placing itself on it, it bursts the tissue, sucks the contents of one cell and then passes on to another, repeating the same process. This naturalist never saw it take any other food, and it never touched any of the numerous plants placed by Cienkowsky in its way. Mentioning another Am=9Cba--the Colpadella Pugnax--h= e says that he found it showing the same predilection for the Chlamydomonas o= n which it feeds exclusively; "having made a puncture in the body of the Chlamydomonas it sucks its chlorophyl and then goes away," he writes, addin= g these significant words: "The way of acting of these monads during their search for and reception of food, is so amazing that one is almost inclined to see in them consciously acting beings!"=20 Not less suggestive are the observations of Th. W. Engelman (Beitraege zur Physiologie des Protoplasm), on the Arcella, another unicellular organism only a trifle more complex than the Vampyrella. He shows them in a drop of water under a microscope on a piece of glass, lying so to speak, on their backs, i.e., on their convex side, so that the pseudopodi=E6, projected fro= m the edge of the shell, find no hold in space and leave the Am=9Cba helpless= . Under these circumstances the following curious fact is observed. Under the very edge of one of the sides of the protoplasm gas-bubbles begin immediately to form, which, making that side lighter, allow it to be raised= , bringing at the same time the opposite side of the creature into contact with the glass, thus furnishing its pseudo or false feet means to get hold of the surface and thereby turning over its body to raise itself on all its pseudopodi=E6. After this, the Am=9Cba proceeds to suck back into itself th= e gas-bubbles and begins to move. If a like drop of water is placed on the lower extremity of the glass, then, following the law of gravity the Am=9Cb= =E6 will find themselves at first at the lower end of the drop of water. Failin= g to find there a point of support, they proceed to generate large bubbles of gas, when, becoming lighter than the water, they are raised up to the surface of the drop.=20 In the words of Engelman:--=20 If having reached the surface of the glass they find no more support for their feet than before, forthwith one sees the gas-globules diminishing on one side and increasing in size and number on the other, or both, until the creatures touch with the edge of their shell the surface of the glass, and are enabled to turn over. No sooner is this done than the gas-globules disappear and the Arcellae begin crawling. Detach them carefully by means o= f a fine needle from the surface of the glass and thus bring them down once more to the lower surface of the drop of water; and forthwith they will repeat the same process, varying its details according to necessity and devising new means to reach their desired aim. Try as much as you will to place them in uncomfortable positions, and they find means to extricate themselves from them, each time, by one device or the other; and no sooner have they succeeded than the gas-bubbles disappear! It is impossible not to admit that such facts as these point to the presence of some PSYCHIC proces= s in the protoplasm. 4=20 ----------------- end Part I ------------------------------- Dallas From perrycoles@yahoo.com Wed Jul 06 17:05:07 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61316 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2005 00:01:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2005 00:01:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2005 00:01:10 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 2005 00:00:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.92] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 2005 00:00:46 -0000 Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 00:00:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 531 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.37 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.59.52.39 From: "Perry Coles" Subject: Re: Numbers X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069; y=MNAUwxKzq5dYR_zoPmcKghxVj0ydiHHXRW0t6k3E7FTOLH7l4Q X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Many P Hall's book 'the Secret teachings of all ages' has a chapter called 'Pythagorean mathematics' which is very good as well. Cheers Perry --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "bta1012003" wrote: > Dear Friends: > > I would like to do a little research on the symbolic meaning and > significance of different numbers, like one represents unity, two > represents duality, three the triangle, etc. Can someone suggest where > I would find this subject in the HPB writings? > > Thank you in advance, > > bta From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Wed Jul 06 19:08:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16471 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2005 02:08:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2005 02:08:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40910.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.207) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2005 02:08:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 22400 invoked by uid 60001); 7 Jul 2005 02:08:13 -0000 Message-ID: <20050707020813.22398.qmail@web40910.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.21.100] by web40910.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:08:13 PDT Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:08:13 -0700 (PDT) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: 66.218.78.207 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "D. Caldwell" Subject: Religions of the World: Recommended Reading X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=i6gM1E5H5oDLTBh1FvF3bzmvj0MN6XtQlmgBF-6NmexBWOW2ZkrcJzzL X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Religions of the World: Recommended Reading Students of Theosophy and Madame Blavatsky's writings may find some of the titles listed below of some interest and help. Introductions http://blavatskyarchives.com/religionsintroductions.htm General Anthologies of Sacred Texts http://blavatskyarchives.com/religionanthologies.htm Reference Works http://blavatskyarchives.com/religionsreference.htm More categories will be added in the near future. Daniel Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc lt/nb-la From perrycoles@yahoo.com Wed Jul 06 19:39:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 11721 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2005 02:39:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2005 02:39:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2005 02:39:21 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 2005 02:38:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.69] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 2005 02:38:46 -0000 Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 02:38:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 123 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.46 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:7:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 139.230.245.20 From: "Perry Coles" Subject: Re.Numbers-Website X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069; y=X1imKjtyuk_R3Jsb5WUpL6Wddaabl8nnagxxBsd33Uw4uyb7JQ X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Here's a website that has imo good resources on it that maybe of interest. http://www.halexandria.org/dward010.htm Perry From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Jul 07 04:19:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79325 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2005 11:19:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2005 11:19:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.67) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2005 11:19:47 -0000 Received: from [209.179.222.93] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth07.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DqUPg-0004lY-0x; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 07:19:35 -0400 To: "'Theosophy Study List'" Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 04:18:51 -0700 Message-ID: <000501c582e5$bc446dd0$5ddeb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d1ff45c433095a0b6b162c73fbfb17b4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.67 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: " I find only skandhas and their functioning processes" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=PcrVtRD-lw6XCcey7MzfkYSFWQuqUdXHrwMgCK2d8MckLg X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 ABOUT THE SKANDHAS SKANDHA or Skhanda (Sk.). Lit., =E2=80=9Cbundles=E2=80=9D, or groups of att= ributes; everything finite, inapplicable to the eternal and the absolute. T= here are five=E2=80=94esoterically, seven=E2=80=94attributes in every human= living being, which are known as the Pancha Shandhas. These are=20 (1) form, r=C3=BBpa;=20 2) perception, vid=C3=A2na;=20 (3) consciousness, sanjn=C3=A2;=20 (4) action, sansk=C3=A2ra;=20 (5) knowledge, vidy=C3=A2na.=20 These unite at the birth of man and constitute his personality. After the m= aturity of these Skandhas, they begin to separate and weaken, and this is followed by jar=C3=A2marana, or decrepitude and death. Glos 301-2 SAMSK=C3=82RA (Sk.). Lit., from Sam and Kr=C3=AE, to improve, refine, impre= ss. In Hindu philosophy the term is used to denote the impressions left upo= n the mind by individual actions or external circumstances, and capable of = being developed on any future favourable occasion=E2=80=94even in a future = birth. The Samsk=C3=A2ra denotes, therefore, the germs of propensities and = impulses from previous births to be developed in this, or the coming janm= =C3=A2s or reincarnations. In Tibet, Samsk=C3=A2ra is called Doodyed, and i= n China is defined as, or at least connected with, action or Karma. It is, = strictly speaking, a metaphysical term, which in exoteric philosophies is v= ariously defined; e.g., in Nepaul as illusion, in Tibet as notion, and in C= eylon as discrimination. The true meaning is as given above, and as such is= connected with Karma and its working.=E2=80=9D Glos 287-8 PERSONALITY. In Occultism=E2=80=94which divides man into seven principles,= considering him under the three aspects of the divine, the thinking or the= rational, and the animal man=E2=80=94the lower quaternary or the purely as= trophysical being; while by Individuality is meant the Higher Triad, consid= ered as a Unity. Thus the Personality embraces all the characteristics and = memories of one physical life, while the Individuality is the imperishable = Ego which re-incarnates and clothes itself in one personality after another= .=E2=80=9D Glos 252 PRINCIPLES. The Elements or original essences, the basic differentiations= upon and of which all things are built up. We use the term to denote the s= even individual and fundamental aspects of the One Universal Reality in Kos= mos and in man. Hence also the seven aspects in the manifestation in the hu= man being=E2=80=94divine, spiritual, psychic, astral, physiological and sim= ply physical.=E2=80=9D Glos 262-3 INDIVIDUALITY. One of the names given in Theosophy and Occultism to the Hu= man Higher EGO. We make a distinction between the immortal and divine Ego, = and the mortal human Ego which perishes.=20 The latter, or =E2=80=9Cpersonality=E2=80=9D (personal Ego) survives the de= ad body only for a time in the Kama Loka; the Individuality prevails foreve= r.=E2=80=9D Glos 154-5 From: The KEY TO THEOSOPHY :=09 THEOSOPHIST.=20 "l. That there is a life coincident with, and independent of the physical l= ife of the body."=20 "2. That, as a necessary corollary, this life extends beyond the life of th= e body" (we say it extends throughout Devachan).=20 "3. That there is communication between the denizens of that state of exist= ence and those of the world in which we now live."=20 All depend, you see, on the minor and secondary aspects of these fundamenta= l propositions.=20 Everything depends on the views we take of Spirit and Soul, or Individualit= y and Personality. Spiritualists confuse the two "into one"; we separate th= em, and say that, with the exceptions above enumerated, no Spirit will revi= sit the earth, though the animal Soul may. But let us return once more to o= ur direct subject, the SKANDHAS.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. I begin to understand better now. It is the Spirit, so to say, of= those Skandhas which are the most ennobling, which, attaching themselves t= o the incarnating Ego, survive, and are added to the stock of its angelic e= xperiences. And it is the attributes connected with the material Skandhas, = with selfish and personal motives, which, disappearing from the field of ac= tion between two incarnations, reappear at the subsequent incarnation as Ka= rmic results to be atoned for; and therefore the Spirit will not leave Deva= chan. Is it so?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Very nearly so. If you add to this that the law of retributio= n, or Karma, rewarding the highest and most spiritual in Devachan, never fa= ils to reward them again on earth by giving them a further development, and= furnishing the Ego with a body fitted for it, then you will be quite corre= ct.=20 =20 A FEW WORDS ABOUT THE SKANDHAS. ENQUIRER. What becomes of the other, THE LOWER SKANDHAS OF THE PERSONALITY,= after the death of the body? Are they quite destroyed?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. They are and yet they are not -- a fresh metaphysical and occ= ult mystery for you. They are destroyed as the working stock in hand of the= personality; they remain as Karmic effects, as germs, hanging in the atmos= phere of the terrestrial plane, ready to come to life, as so many avenging = fiends, to attach themselves to the new personality of the Ego when it rein= carnates.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. This really passes my comprehension, and is very difficult to und= erstand.=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not once that you have assimilated all the details. For then = you will see that for logic, consistency, profound philosophy, divine mercy= and equity, this doctrine of Reincarnation has not its equal on earth. It = is a belief in a perpetual progress for each incarnating Ego, or divine sou= l, in an evolution from the outward into the inward, from the material to t= he Spiritual, arriving at the end of each stage at absolute unity with the = divine Principle. From strength to strength, from the beauty and perfection= of one plane to the greater beauty and perfection of another, with accessi= ons of new glory, of fresh knowledge and power in each cycle, such is the d= estiny of every Ego, which thus becomes its own Saviour in each world and i= ncarnation.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But Christianity teaches the same. It also preaches progression.= =20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Yes, only with the addition of something else. It tells us of= the impossibility of attaining Salvation without the aid of a miraculous S= aviour, and therefore dooms to perdition all those who will not accept the = dogma. This is just the difference between Christian theology and Theosophy= . The former enforces belief in the Descent of the Spiritual Ego into the L= ower Self; the latter inculcates the necessity of endeavouring to elevate o= neself to the Christos, or Buddhi state.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. By teaching the annihilation of consciousness in case of failure,= however, don't you think that it amounts to the annihilation of Self, in t= he opinion of the non-metaphysical?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. From the standpoint of those who believe in the resurrection = of the body literally, and insist that every bone, every artery and atom of= flesh will be raised bodily on the Judgment Day =E2=80=95of course it does= . If you still insist that it is the perishable form and finite qualities t= hat make up immortal man, then we shall hardly understand each other. And i= f you do not understand that, by limiting the existence of every Ego to one= life on earth, you make of Deity an ever-drunken Indra of the Puranic dead= letter, a cruel Moloch, a god who makes an inextricable mess on Earth, and= yet claims thanks for it, then the sooner we drop the conversation the bet= ter.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But let us return, now that the subject of the Skandhas is dispos= ed of, to the question of the consciousness which survives death. This is t= he point which interests most people. Do we possess more knowledge in Devac= han than we do in Earth life?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. In one sense, we can acquire more knowledge; that is, we can = develop further any faculty which we loved and strove after during life, pr= ovided it is concerned with abstract and ideal things, such as music, paint= ing, poetry, etc., since Devachan is merely an idealized and subjective con= tinuation of earth-life.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But if in Devachan the Spirit is free from matter, why should it = not possess all knowledge?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Because, as I told you, the Ego is, so to say, wedded to the = memory of its last incarnation. Thus, if you think over what I have said, a= nd string all the facts together, you will realize that the Devachanic stat= e is not one of omniscience, but a transcendental continuation of the perso= nal life just terminated. It is the rest of the soul from the toils of life= .=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But the scientific materialists assert that after the death of ma= n nothing remains; that the human body simply disintegrates into its compon= ent elements; and that what we call soul is merely a temporary self-conscio= usness produced as a bye-product of organic action, which will evaporate li= ke steam. Is not theirs a strange state of mind? =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not strange at all, that I see. If they say that self-conscio= usness ceases with the body, then in their case they simply utter an uncons= cious prophecy, for once they are firmly convinced of what they assert, no = conscious after-life is possible for them. For there are exceptions to ever= y rule.=20 =20 ON POST-MORTEM AND POST-NATAL CONSCIOUSNESS.*=20 ENQUIRER. But if human self-consciousness survives death as a rule, why sho= uld there be exceptions?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. In the fundamental principles of the spiritual world no excep= tion is possible. But there are rules for those who see, and rules for thos= e who prefer to remain blind.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Quite so, I understand. This is but an aberration of the blind ma= n, who denies the existence of the sun because he does not see it. But afte= r death his spiritual eyes will certainly compel him to see. Is this what y= ou mean?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. He will not be compelled, nor will he see anything. Having pe= rsistently denied during life the continuance of existence after death, he = will be unable to see it, because his spiritual capacity having been stunte= d in life, it cannot develop after death, and he will remain blind. By insi= sting that he must see it, you evidently mean one thing and I another. You = speak of the spirit from the spirit, or the flame from the flame -- of Atma= , in short =E2=80=95and you confuse it with the human soul =E2=80=95Manas. = . . . You do not understand me; let me try to make it clear. The whole gist= of your question is to know whether, in the case of a downright materialis= t, the complete loss of self-consciousness and self-perception after death = is possible? Isn't it so? I answer, It is possible. Because, believing firm= ly in our Esoteric Doctrine, which refers to the post-mortem period, or the= interval between two lives or births, as merely a transitory state, I say,= whether that interval between two acts of the illusionary drama of life la= sts one year or a million, that post-mortem state may, without any breach o= f the fundamental law, prove to be just the same state as that of a man who= is in a dead faint.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But since you have just said that the fundamental laws of the aft= er death state admit of no exceptions, how can this be?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Nor do I say that it does admit of an exception. But the spir= itual law of continuity applies only to things which are truly real. To one= who has read and understood Mundakya Upanishad and Vedanta-Sara all this b= ecomes very clear. I will say more: it is sufficient to understand what we = mean by Buddhi and the duality of Manas to gain a clear perception why the = materialist may fail to have a self-conscious survival after death. Since M= anas, in its lower aspect, is the seat of the terrestrial mind, it can, the= refore, give only that perception of the Universe which is based on the evi= dence of that mind; it cannot give spiritual vision. It is said in the East= ern school, that between Buddhi and Manas (the Ego), or Iswara and Pragna* = there is in reality no more difference than between a forest and its trees,= a lake and its waters, as the Mundakya teaches. One or hundreds of trees d= ead from loss of vitality, or uprooted, are yet incapable of preventing the= forest from being still a forest.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But, as I understand it, Buddhi represents in this simile the for= est, and Manas-taijasi =E2=95=AB the trees. And if Buddha is immortal, how = can that which is similar to it, i. e., Manas-taijasi, entirely lose its co= nsciousness till the day of its new incarnation? I cannot understand it.=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. You cannot, because you will mix up an abstract representatio= n of the whole with its casual changes of form. Remember that if it can be = said of Buddhi-Manas that it is unconditionally immortal, the same cannot b= e said of the lower Manas, still less of Taijasi, which is merely an attrib= ute. Neither of these, neither Manas nor Taijasi, can exist apart from Budd= hi, the divine soul, because the first (Manas) is, in its lower aspect, a q= ualificative attribute of the terrestrial personality, and the second (Taij= asi) is identical with the first, because it is the same Manas only with th= e light of Buddhi reflected on it. In its turn, Buddhi would remain only an= impersonal spirit without this element which it borrows from the human sou= l, which conditions and makes of it, in this illusive Universe, as it were = something separate from the universal soul for the whole period of the cycl= e of incarnation. Say rather that Buddhi-Manas can neither die nor lose its= compound self-consciousness in Eternity, nor the recollection of its previ= ous incarnations in which the two=E2=80=95 i.e., the spiritual and the huma= n soul -- had been closely linked together. But it is not so in the case of= a materialist, whose human soul not only receives nothing from the divine = soul, but even refuses to recognise its existence. You can hardly apply thi= s axiom to the attributes and qualifications of the human soul, for it woul= d be like saying that because your divine soul is immortal, therefore the b= loom on your cheek must also be immortal; whereas this bloom, like Taijasi,= is simply a transitory phenomenon.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Do I understand you to say that we must not mix in our minds the = noumenon with the phenomenon, the cause with its effect?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. I do say so, and repeat that, limited to Manas or the human s= oul alone, the radiance of Taijasi itself becomes a mere question of time; = because both immortality and consciousness after death become, for the terr= estrial personality of man, simply conditioned attributes, as they depend e= ntirely on conditions and beliefs created by the human soul itself during t= he life of its body. Karma acts incessantly: we reap in our after-life only= the fruit of that which we have ourselves sown in this.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. But if my Ego can, after the destruction of my body, become plung= ed in a state of entire unconsciousness, then where can be the punishment f= or the sins of my past life?=20 THEOSOPHIST. Our philosophy teaches that Karmic punishment reaches the Ego= only in its next incarnation. After death it receives only the reward for = the unmerited sufferings endured during its past incarnation.*The whole pun= ishment after death, even for the materialist, consists, therefore, in the = absence of any reward, and the utter loss of the consciousness of one's bli= ss and rest. Karma is the child of the terrestrial Ego, the fruit of the ac= tions of the tree which is the objective personality visible to all, as muc= h as the fruit of all the thoughts and even motives of the spiritual "I"; b= ut Karma is also the tender mother, who heals the wounds inflicted by her d= uring the preceding life, before she will begin to torture this Ego by infl= icting upon him new ones. If it may be said that there is not a mental or p= hysical suffering in the life of a mortal which is not the direct fruit and= consequence of some sin in a preceding existence; on the other hand, since= he does not preserve the slightest recollection of it in his actual life, = and feels himself not deserving of such punishment, and therefore thinks he= suffers for no guilt of his own, this alone is sufficient to entitle the h= uman soul to the fullest consolation, rest, and bliss in his post-mortem ex= istence. Death comes to our spiritual selves ever as a deliverer and friend= . For the materialist, who, not withstanding his materialism, was not a bad= man, the interval between the two lives will be like the unbroken and plac= id sleep of a child, either entirely dreamless, or filled with pictures of = which he will have no definite perception; while for the average mortal it = will be a dream as vivid as life, and full of realistic bliss and visions.= =20 =20 ENQUIRER. Then the personal man must always go on suffering blindly the Kar= mic penalties which the Ego has incurred?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Not quite so. At the solemn moment of death every man, even wh= en death is sudden, sees the whole of his past life marshalled before him, = in its minutest details. For one short instant the personal becomes one wit= h the individual and all-knowing Ego. But this instant is enough to show to= him the whole chain of causes which have been at work during his life. He = sees and now understands himself as he is, unadorned by flattery or self-de= ception. He reads his life, remaining as a spectator looking down into the = arena he is quitting; he feels and knows the justice of all the suffering t= hat has overtaken him.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Does this happen to everyone?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. Without any exception. Very good and holy men see, we are tau= ght, not only the life they are leaving, but even several preceding lives i= n which were produced the causes that made them what they were in the life = just closing. They recognise the law of Karma in all its majesty and justic= e.=20 =20 ENQUIRER. Is there anything corresponding to this before re-birth?=20 =20 THEOSOPHIST. There is. As the man at the moment of death has a retrospecti= ve insight into the life he has led, so, at the moment he is reborn on to e= arth, the Ego, awaking from the state of Devachan, has a prospective vision= of the life which awaits him, and realizes all the causes that have led to= it. He realizes them and sees futurity, because it is between Devachan and= re-birth that the Ego regains his full manasic consciousness, and rebecome= s for a short time the god he was, before, in compliance with Karmic law, h= e first descended into matter and incarnated in the first man of flesh. The= "golden thread" sees all its "pearls" and misses not one of them. =E2=80= =9C Key 153-163 -------------------------------------------- THE MORAL LAW OF COMPENSATION=20 =09=09=09 For thou shalt be in league with the stones of the field; and the beasts of= the field shall be at peace with thee. - Job, Chap. V, v. 23, Christian Bi= ble.=20 [Some selections from this article It seems undeniable that this law is the most powerful, and the one having = the most numerous and complicated ramifications of all the laws with which = we have to deal. This it is that makes so difficult for a human spirit, the= upward progress after which we all are striving, and it is often forced up= on me that it is this law which perpetuates the world, with its delusions, = its sadness, its illusions, and that if we could but understand it so as to= avoid its operation, the nirvana for the whole human family would be an ac= complished fact. .... To say that the reviling of a righteous man will condemn one to a life of a= beggar in the next existence is definite enough in statement, but it is pu= t forward without a reason ....no Theosophist will believe that any punishm= ent, save that which man himself inflicts, is ordered. As this world is a w= orld produced by law, moved by law, and governed by the natural operation o= f laws which need no one to operate them, but which invariably and unerring= ly operate themselves, it must follow that any punishment suffered in this = way is not suffered through any order, but is suffered because the natural = law operates itself. ... So then we should know in what manner the law operates, which condemns the = reviler of a righteous man to beggary in his next existence. That knowledge= once gained, we may be able to find for ourselves the manner and power of = placating, as it were, this terrible monster of compensation by performing = some particular acts which shall in some way be a restoration of the harmon= y which we have broken, if perchance we have unconsciously or inadvertently= committed the sin.=20 Let us now imagine a boy born of wealthy parents, but not given proper inte= lligence. He is, in fact, called an idiot. But instead of being a mild idio= t, he possesses great malice which manifests itself in his tormenting insec= ts and animals at every opportunity. He lives to be, say, nineteen and has = spent his years in the malicious, although idiotic, torment of unintelligen= t, defenseless animal life. He has thus hindered many a spirit in its upwar= d march and has beyond doubt inflicted pain and caused a moral discord. Thi= s fact of his idiocy is not a restoration of the discord. Every animal that= he tortured had its own particular elemental spirit, and so had every flow= er that he broke in pieces. What did they know of his idiocy, and what did = they feel after the torture but revenge? And had they a knowledge of his id= iocy, being unreasoning beings, they could not see in it any excuse for his= acts.=20 He dies at nineteen, and after the lapse of years is reborn in another nati= on - perchance another age - into a body possessing more than average intel= ligence. He is no longer an idiot, but a sensible active man who now has a = chance to regenerate the spirit given to every man, without the chains of i= diocy about it. What is to be the result of the evil deeds of his previous = existence? Are they to go unpunished? I think not. But how are they to be p= unished; and if the compensation comes, in what manner does the law operate= upon him? To me there seems to be but one way, that is through the discord= produced in the spirits of those unthinking beings which he had tortured d= uring those nineteen years. But how? In this way. In the agony of their tor= ture these beings turned their eyes upon their torturer, and dying, his spi= ritual picture through the excess of their pain, together with that pain an= d the desire for revenge, were photographed, so to speak, upon their spirit= s - for in no other way could they have a memory of him - and when he becam= e a disembodied spirit they clung to him until he was reincarnated when the= y were still with him like barnacles on a ship. They can now only see throu= gh his eyes, and their revenge consists in precipitating themselves down hi= s glance on any matter he may engage in, thus attaching themselves to it fo= r the purpose of dragging it down to disaster. [WQJ ART I P. 129] This leads to the query of what is meant by these elementals precipitating = themselves down his glance. The ancients taught that the astral light - Aka= sa - is projected from the eyes, the thumbs and the palms of the hands. Now= as the elementals exist in the astral light, they will be able to see only= through those avenues of human organism which are used by the astral light= in traveling from the person. The eyes are the most convenient. So when th= is person directs his glance on any thing or person, the astral light goes = out in that glance and through it those elementals see that which he looks = upon. And so also, if he should magnetize a person, the elementals will pro= ject themselves from his hands and eyes upon the subject magnetized and do = it injury.=20 Well then, our reincarnated idiot engages in a business which requires his = constant surveillance. The elementals go with him and throwing themselves u= pon everything he directs, cause him continued disaster.=20 But one by one they are caught up again out of the orbit of necessity into = the orbit of probation in this world, and at last all are gone, whereupon h= e finds success in all he does and has his chance again to reap eternal lif= e. ...There is no other reasonable explanation of the passage quoted than t= he theory faintly outlined in the foregoing poor illustration. And I only o= ffer it as a possible solution or answer to the question as to what is the = rationale of the operation of the Moral Law of Compensation ... W. Q. Judge Theosophist, October, 1881=20 ------------------------------------------ Concerning "Skandhas" (Samskaras ?). I have a problem and wonder if there is an answer for it.=20=20 The SECRET DOCTRINE (Vol. 1, p. 289) indicates that:--=20 "...there is not one finger's breadth of void Space in the whole Boundless= (Universe)..."=20=20 Do the "life-atoms," the "skandhas," and the "Monads" represent co-existent= or interdependent aspects of that which "fills" the otherwise seeming "voi= d" of SPACE ?=20=20 Or, are all three designations merely qualitative differences ? ( By this,= I mean that the eternal and imperishable Monad (as a center of force) rece= ives different "names" according to the functions which it performs at one = time or another ? ) Then, on p. 631, Vol. 1 of the same book (SD) I read (in summary) that esot= eric philosophy teaches an objective Idealism -- which apparently consists = of a tremendous multitude of Monads in the various stages that are describe= d on the next page (632) as:=20=20 1. conscious spiritual Egos,=20=20 2. Elementals, and, 3. Atoms.=20=20 A fourth category is also mentioned there:=20=20 4 "countless spiritual Forces--Monadless, for they are pure incorporealitie= s, except under certain laws when they assume a form--not necessarily human." [ This latter designation and category is = a puzzle to me -- or could this be another description of the nature of the= "Monadic-Essence ? ] On p. 671-2 of Vol. 2, SD one may read: "...Occultism teaches that =E2=80= =93=20 1) the life-atoms of our (Prana) life-principle are never entirely lost wh= en a man dies...the atoms best impregnated with the life-principle (an inde= pendent, eternal, conscious factor) are partially...drawn once more togethe= r and become the animating principle of the new body in every new incarnati= on of the Monads. ... 2) as the indivisible Soul is ever the same, so are the atoms of the lower= principles (body, its astral, or life double, etc.) drawn as they are by a= ffinity and Karmic law always to the same individuality in a series of vari= ous bodies, etc...." I wonder if the "skandhas" are not "elementals" to which our thoughts and f= eelings attach themselves ?=20=20 Are they then part of one or another (perhaps the 2nd category ?) of the "m= onadic hosts ?" or, of the "countless spiritual forces-- Monadless..." T= here is a statement made that every thought and feeling that we generate is= attached to an "elemental." [ WQJ Articles I 410 ] As I understand Theosophical doctrines we carry (as the imperishable Ego-So= ul, or technically: Atma-Buddhi-Manas) a complete record of all that we tho= ught, felt or did during the last life into what is called "Kama-loka." Now the Monad with its army of attendant "noble and spiritual" skandhas (th= ose which carry the memory of its better moments in the last life) 'ascends= ' into the state called Devachan (Land of the Gods) or Sukhavati, and there= it is said to engage in an active meditation on those impressions for a pe= riod that is determined by their quantity and quality.=20 When these are finally assimilated into its permanent memory, so as to beco= me a part of its "character," Karma asserts its attractive nature, and the = Monad (our INDIVIDUALITY) is drawn back to earth-life and incarnation again Simultaneously, as this physical and personal focus is made available in a = new family, the more material "skandhas" -- those that were dispersed after= the "Second Death" -- are also re-attracted to the mother, and help to for= m the necessary "personal" sheaths such as the astral, physical bodies, and= the personal Prana and "seed" for the Kama-manas intelligence (a combinati= on of Kama and Manas, or desire/passion and Mind) of the incarnating Ego. = Thus, constituting an environment that leads to the birth of a new baby for= m, for the continued development of the imperishable and eternal "Pilgrim" = -- the MONAD that we are at core, and which we call our "spiritual" HIGHER= -SELF. So it seems to me that even the "Skandhas" are made up of Monads that are a= t some lower stage of development and experience than the "human" Monad is,= and, so to say, constitute its "attendants." Does this sound reasonable ? Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Meredith=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:00 PM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Re: " I find only skandhas and their functioning processes" Yes I understand what an aggregate is. I also have read quite a bit=20 about skandhas over the past decades. My question was more along the lines= =20 of what are the parts or pieces or components actually made of. Pieces of= =20 what? It would appear that a skandha is actually a mental construct (a=20 model, if you prefer) that has no existence without the mind that=20 constructed it and chooses to believe in it. As one philosopher put it,=20 "The skandhas are analyzed into existence." It also would appear that from another perspective a set of skandhas would= =20 maintain the view that it was the skandhas themselves that analyzed=20 themselves into being. Of course from another perspective this would be viewed as a very adept for= m=20 of creative skandha gamesmanship.=20 From bta101@hotmail.com Thu Jul 07 18:11:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: bta101@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20952 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2005 22:57:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jul 2005 22:57:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2005 22:57:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 2005 22:57:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.76] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Jul 2005 22:57:54 -0000 Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:57:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 286 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.46 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 64.174.145.158 From: "bta1012003" Subject: Re: Re.Numbers-Website X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=118449510; y=juoslRh6b3d80Vmo7tOdLObfOYJwg5ChborfDddLHNZCHYnV0A X-Yahoo-Profile: bta1012003 Thanks, Perry & Dallas. I will read through the suggested materials. BTA --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles" wrote: > Here's a website that has imo good resources on it that maybe of > interest. > http://www.halexandria.org/dward010.htm > > Perry From silva_cass@yahoo.com Thu Jul 07 18:45:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75509 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2005 01:45:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2005 01:45:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.201.219) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2005 01:45:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 71052 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Jul 2005 01:45:52 -0000 Message-ID: <20050708014552.71050.qmail@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.113] by web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 07 Jul 2005 18:45:52 PDT Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:45:52 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.201.219 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Re.Numbers-Website X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=Y2y00m1GAHmOUViND3lrxTn8fMQtsDv_G2VnGy1M3GDnsuZ51g X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have scanned all the website, it is brilliant and is now one of my favourites. Cass bta1012003 wrote: Thanks, Perry & Dallas. I will read through the suggested materials. BTA --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles" wrote: > Here's a website that has imo good resources on it that maybe of > interest. > http://www.halexandria.org/dward010.htm > > Perry Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From compiler@wisdomworld.org Thu Jul 07 19:55:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50638 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2005 02:55:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2005 02:55:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ams006.ftl.affinity.com) (216.219.253.152) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2005 02:55:02 -0000 Received: from [69.251.45.208] ([69.251.45.208]:14343 "EHLO wisdomworld.org") by ams006.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id S379299AbVGHCyw (ORCPT ); Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:54:52 -0400 Message-ID: <42CDF8F4.32EEED05@wisdomworld.org> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:54:28 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 216.219.253.152 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Compiler Subject: NUMBER, THE RULING DEITY" & "THE SYMBOLISM OF NUMBERS" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585; y=YdcTp-zqkft5VWdVKVuLNVVLkoeOlTMRQLKGnTZZngMUJa63ZaMG X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld Based on some of the discussions currently going on here, these five articles from THEOSOPHY magazine should prove to be very informative and useful to many readers, especially newcomers to theosophy. You can reach them via the below link that goes to the 12th of 18 sections that are found on the "Additional" articles index page of my WisdomWorld.org web site that is entitled "A LISTING OF 329 COLLATED ARTICLES". Just click on the only link that is found in the section and scroll down the page to get to them, as they are alphabetically listed in this way: ================================ * Number, the Ruling Deity * Symbolism of Numbers, The (4-part series): Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Part 4 ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#12 ========================================== Dear newcomers to Theosophy: I sincerely do hope that my web site offers a well-rounded overall view of Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement. The 3 main links to everything on it are found below. Please know that I'm only the compiler of all the articles found on my web site; I'm not a scholar; and also that I personally do not like to take part in conversations, even though I do hope that what I present from time to time will help a little in the discussions being carried on by others. So please do not be insulted when I do not respond if someone addresses me, or addresses anything that is found in any of the articles on my web site; I leave that for others to deal with if they want to -- whether pro, con, neutral, friendly or unfriendly. John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added (which contains 18 sections that can each be clicked on at the top of the page in order to go directly down to them, as well as to get the link to any particular section that you may want to use in a posting on a discussion board, or in an e-mail to someone): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html "PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT FORUM": This next link is to the most updated version of my economic proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering world that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org ------- From auspirograph@yahoo.com Fri Jul 08 09:55:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 7291 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2005 16:55:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2005 16:55:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2005 16:55:57 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jul 2005 16:55:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.77] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jul 2005 16:55:46 -0000 X-Sender: auspirograph@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88816 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2005 06:45:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2005 06:45:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2005 06:45:42 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jul 2005 06:44:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.69] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jul 2005 06:44:09 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 06:44:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 250 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.44 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 144.138.3.43 From: "Spiro" Subject: Blavatsky & Giuseppe Garibaldi X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=123058641; y=V2-j0K0SOiQT6bN3fhqHLlNtKEUgazViafCyginCVFZoERQcyi3u X-Yahoo-Profile: auspirograph X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 08 Jul 2005 16:55:45 -0000 Hi all, Does anyone have a link or comment to details on Blavatsky's involvement in Giuseppe Garibaldi's Sicilian revolt of 1860. I understand that she was engaged in the battle of Italian liberation and subsequent unification. Any thoughts? Spiro From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Jul 08 10:50:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53574 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2005 17:50:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Jul 2005 17:50:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jul 2005 17:50:55 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jul 2005 17:49:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.84] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Jul 2005 17:49:54 -0000 Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:49:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4030 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.50 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: My Reply to Aveline's Comments about my book THE ESOTERIC WORLD OF HPB X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=jSfFJSb9MDze9Dke3b1PQq720YTsIk7k4KNbjmiDs7odoTxQhTLm0y29 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Concerning what Carlos Cardoso Aveline writes about my book THE ESOTERIC WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY (see his comments at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/27558 ) I would like to say the following: In regards to Aveline's comments about the adding of negative accounts by Coulomb and Hodgson, etc. to the Wheaton edition of my book, it was MY decision and only MY decision to add them so that readers could see what the charges against HPB were, especially since many of the other accounts by "friendly" witnesses refer to these charges, and even make comments about the charges, etc. I saw no good reason to hide the "negative" accounts from readers....And by giving the accounts, the reader can start to understand the relevance of what the other witnesses say. Furthermore, I was motivated to include them in light of what HPB once wrote: "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. I wanted the reader to be able to compare notes and hear both sides. What is wrong with that? Notice ALSO that in some of my editorial notes attention is called to the conflicting testimony and even to the falsity of the charges against HPB: p. 185: "Her phenomena and the reality of her teachers were both controversial matters, eliciting both believing acceptance (sometimes with independent confirmation) and skeptical rejection, as the following selections will illustrate." p. 205: "Emma Coulomb later claimed that she collaborated with HPB at Adyar, as she had earlier in Bombay, in producing false phenomena; however, her descriptions of what she did are not consistent with the observatations of others, who witnessed the phenomena, both Indian and Westerners, as some of the following selections demonstrate." p. 263: "Meanwhile, a vicious attack on Blavatsky by two of her staff members at Adyar, Alexis and Emma Coulomb, was rapidly building up....She wished to sue the couple, already dismissed from Adyar for their gross libel concerning her supposedly fraudulent production of psychic phenomena...." p. 264: "The Coulomb attack, as was later evident, had no solid foundation whatsoever. It was based on forged and partially forged letters, purporting to have been written by H.P. Blavatsky, with instructions to arrange fraudulent psychic phenomena of various kinds." p. 264: In 1963, Adlai Waterman....refuted Hodgson's contentions against Madame Blavatsky....Another refutation of some of Hodgson's charges against HPB is Vernon Harison's article...." p. 406: "In May 1884, the Coulomb couple were expelled from the Theosophial Society for theft, attempted extortion and slander...." p. 415: "At first, relations between the two were friendly but Solovyov turned against HPB and wrote a book....in which he attempted to protray HPB as a fraud."....Hasting, SOLOVYOFF'S FRAUD.... [OBTW, the one selection by Solovyoff in the book is not negative towards HPB as the recent FOHAT article states!] Surely the perceptive reader will be able to see that one should take what these writers say with a grain of salt. Furthermore, I specifically selected the material by Coulomb and Hodgson to put in JUXTAPOSITION with other accounts which show that what they (Coulomb and Hodgson) say about, for example, the appearances of the Masters, must surely be off the mark, to say the least or as I believe.....wrong...false. If anything, the accounts by the above "enemies" of HPB found next to other accounts will make the reader .... THINK about the charges. And if they are perceptive at all, they should at least conclude that the Coulomb/Hodgson charges should not be taken at face value without carefully considering other material which is also found in the book. And hopefully some thoughtful readers will dig deeper and determine for themselves what happened.... Daniel H. Caldwell http://hpb.cc From ringding@online.de Sat Jul 09 10:42:59 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 73560 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2005 17:42:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jul 2005 17:42:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.177) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jul 2005 17:42:58 -0000 Received: from p54BF96CB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.150.203] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKwpI-1DrJLs3dyQ-0006nc; Sat, 09 Jul 2005 19:42:56 +0200 Message-ID: <006a01c584ad$bc0797b0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 19:43:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.177 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Konstantin on: Hypotheses OTHER THAN Reincarnation: The psychic "husk" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=9IEkGGndTIGRSEty1MfsUwnNecLrCDQhFmLFGnPNHPJgsE8w6QquV_6W8w X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Konstantin: One simple question. It is widely believed that Mahatma Letters are created by so called precipitation. The Master has the image in his mind and produces the letter by means of materialization. But WHY all the letters are in the handwriting, while it is much easier to imagine the PRINTED letters, like those we see in the books and on the screen? To imagine handwriting with much minor details is much harder task, and needs much efforts with are quite obsolete for they make the letters more hard to read. No one ever said that in precipitation letters you have to imagine a handwriting style. You materialize the Master's explanation when He writes that he imagines the letter before. What He wrote about was the spiritual and manasic content, not the outer form. The outer form is part of the execution of the imagine and this is left over to Their chelas. This is the reason, why these precipitated letters sometimes bear parts of the handwriting style of the executor of Master's will. It is quite clear that procuding an alternative physical form (typewriting) would as less a problem for the chela as the language of the writing. Konstantin: It is important because you are using for its support some information based on the authority of the Masters. They also taught reincarnation. In this case we are left with two theories which are quite speculative because there are almost no any evidences for them. The more, there are almost no evidences against reincarnation, don't? Besides the Christian assumption that God created only one life. Elsewehre in the NT there is the term "one life" and upon this the Catholic Catechism creates its rationale against reincarnation. But that is rather rhetoric than philosophy, because one life and reincanation are no real contradictions. From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Jul 09 17:24:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8017 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 00:24:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 00:24:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 00:24:36 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.109] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DrPcR-0001mE-05; Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:24:33 -0400 To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 17:24:20 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c584e5$b9ddb860$6dd8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec790c8fe6a380230e55cb9beeec1721cb42350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.65 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: MAHATMA'S WRITINGS -- What They have Said. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=2ggkj8ME6kwHf8MLBa_akfEBp9paB0_vUvTvG5Oehu_bdA X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 July 9 2005 Friends: On the subject of the Mahatma's writings here are some facts offered to consider: MAHATMA'S WRITINGS -- What They have Said. The question arose concerning The method used by the Adepts in drawing together the material They and HPB used to answer questions; or in writing books like ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE as well as many articles. The Mahatma ... wrote:=20=20 "You have seen by the Kiddle incident...that even an "adept" when acting in his body is not beyond mistakes due to human carelessness...all thro' lack of simple caution. There is always that danger if one has neglected to ascertain whether the words or sentences rushing into the mind have come al= l from 'within' or whether some may have been impressed from 'without.'...I had no time to verify their contents--nor do I now.=20=20 I have a habit of often quoting, 'minus' quotation marks--from the maze of what I get in the countless folios of our Akasic libraries, so to say--with eyes shut. Sometimes I may give out thoughts that will see light years later; at other times what an orator, a Cicero may have pronounced ages earlier, and at others, what was only pronounced by modern lips but already either written or printed--as in the Kiddle case.=20=20 All this I do (not being a trained writer for the Press) without the smallest concern as to where the sentences and strings of words may have come from, so long as the serve to express, and fit in with my own thoughts." [ML 324] The "Kiddle" incident concerned a man of that name who, after reading Sinnett's THE OCCULT WORLD, claimed that some of the passages that Mr. Sinnett quoted from the Mahatma's letters were originally his. Reverting to this subject of plagiarism, we find the Mahatma saying in some detail:=20=20 "I am accused of "plagiarism.". We of Tibet and China know not what you mean by the word, I do, but this is no reason, perhaps, why I should accep= t your literary laws. Any writer has the privilege of taking out whole sentences from the dictionary of "PAI-WOUEN-YEN-FU" the greatest in the world, full of quotations from every known writer, and containing all the phrases ever used--and to frame them to express his thought. This does not apply to the Kiddle case which happened just as I told you. But you may find, perchance throughout my letters twenty detached sentences which may have been already used in books or MSS.=20=20 When you write upon some subject you surround yourself with books of references etc.: when we write upon something the Western opinion about which is unknown to us, we surround ourselves with hundred of paras: upon this particular topic from dozens of different works--impressed upon the Akasa.=20=20 What wonder then, that...even myself--should use occasionally a whole sentence already existent, applying it to another--our own idea? I have told you of this before and it is no fault of mine if your friends and enemies will not remain satisfied with the explanation...For the 'Kiddle' business it is your own fault. Why have you printed the OCCULT WORLD befor= e sending it to me for revision? I would have never allowed the passage to pass...'We are not infallible, all-foreseeing "Mahatmas" at every hour of the day,' good friend...." [ML 364] Writing in another letter to his correspondent on some of the pearls of wisdom that might occasionally be discovered by readers despite the unshape= d and unpolished style and appearance of the early issues of the THEOSOPHIST, He comments (in part):=20 "But let your attention be rather drawn to the few pearls of wisdom and 'occult truths' to be occasionally discovered...And who knows, how many of those, who, undismayed by its unprepossessing appearance...may find themselves rewarded some day for their perseverance ! Illuminated sentence= s may gleam out upon them, at some time or other, shedding a bright light upo= n some old puzzling problems ...yourself you may, perchance, perceive in them the unexpected solution of an old, blurred "dream" of yours, which once 'recalled' will impress itself in an indelible image upon your 'outer' from your inner memory, to never fade out from it again. all this is possible, and may happen..." [ ML 278 ]=20=20 Is this not a broad hint as to the value of the "Heart" doctrine? And, its relation to the literal dry word-transmission -- then, it is left for the disciple to uncover from such texts these keys to his own innate soul memor= y ? The matter of picking up words and ideas was asked about by Mr. Sinnett, an= d evoked this response:=20=20 "Quotation from Tennyson? Really cannot say. Some stray lines picked up in the astral light or in somebody's brain and remembered, I never forget what I once see or read. A bad habit. So much so, that often and unconsciously to myself I string together sentences of stray words and phrases, before my eyes and which may have been used hundred years ago, or will be hundred years hence, in relation to quite a different subject. Laziness and real lack of time."=20 [ML 286] Reviewing, and criticizing some of the writing in ISIS UNVEILED, He wrote:= =20 "If M. told you to beware trusting ISIS too implicitly, it was because he was 'teaching you truth and fact'--and that at the time the passage was written we had not yet decided upon teaching the public indiscriminately...Many are the subjects treated upon in ISIS that even HPB was not allowed to become thoroughly acquainted with; yet they are not contradictory if -- "misleading." To make her say -- that the passage criticized was "incomplete, chaotic, vague. . .clumsy as many more passages in that work" was a sufficiently "frank admission" I should think, to satisfy the most crotchety critic. To admit "that the passage was wrong," on the other hand, would have amounted to a useless falsehood, for I 'maintain' that it is 'not' wrong; since it conceals the 'whole' truth, it does not distort it in the fragments of that truth as given in ISIS." [ML 182] We are thus given an idea and an explanation concerning the possibility of copying stray phrases and words from various authors. Obviously the intention has never been to steal those or use them for any other purpose than accuracy of expression. In an earlier letter : "She (HPB) states in many places that she was writing on behalf of (or even under the dictation of) the Masters of Wisdom= , whether one "believes" in them or not -- Olcott and Wachmeister (among others) make corroborating reports of this, and she says so repeatedly. [ They (the Masters), have authenticated this fact to Dr. Hubbe-Schleiden--se= e PATH magazine, April 1892, Vol. 8, pp. 1-3 ]. She also says that much if not all she wrote, was supervised or reviewed by them. She does say in regard to ISIS that the proof-readers made errors...Her writing might be criticized, as she did herself, and her own critique ought to be offered fo= r the consideration of the reader.=20 I bring this forward as otherwise it might leave the impression that the Mahatmas connived or were also guilty of "plagiarism" or of "stealing" another's words, or of condoning such a practice habitually. They speak fo= r themselves. In regard to herself, HPB wrote: [The following is the greater part of a letter written by H. P. Blavatsky some years ago at a time when, subsequent to the Psychical Research Society's Report on Theosophical phenomena, not only the public bu= t fellow members of the Society were doubting her, doubting themselves, doubting the Adepts. Its publication now will throw upon her character a light not otherwise obtainable. Written to an intimate and old friend for his information and benefit, it bears all the indicia of being out of the heart from one old friend to another. Those who have faith in her and in th= e Masters behind her will gain benefit and knowledge from its perusal.] Now what you advise me to do, I have for the last three or four years attempted most seriously. Dozens of times I have declared that I shall not put the Masters any worldly questions or submit before Them family and othe= r private matters, personal for the most part. I must have sent back to the writers dozens and dozens of letters addressed to the Masters, and many a time have I declared I will not ask Them so and so. Well, what was the consequence? People still worried me. "Please, do please, ask the Masters, only ask and tell Them and draw Their attention to" so-and-so. When I refused doing it _____ would come up and bother, or _____, or someone else. Now it so happens that you do not seem to be aware of the occult law - to which even the Masters are subject Themselves - whenever an intense desire is concentrated on Their personalities: whenever the appeal comes from a ma= n of even an average good morality, and all the desire is intense and sincere even in matters of trifles (and to Them what is not a trifle?): They are disturbed by it, and the desire takes a material form and would haunt Them (the word is ridiculous, but I know of no other) if They did not create an impassable barrier, an Akasic wall between that desire (or thought, or prayer) and so isolate Themselves. The result of this extreme measure is that They find Themselves isolated at the same time from all those who willingly or unwillingly, consciously or otherwise, are made to come within the circle of that thought or desire. I do not know whether you will understand me; I hope you will. And finding Themselves cut off from me, for instance, many were the mistakes made and damages realized that could have been averted had. They not often found Themselves outside the circle of theosophical events. Such is the case ever since . . . , throwing Their names right and left, poured in torrents on the public, so to say, Their personalities, powers, and so on, until the world (the outsiders, not only Theosophists) desecrated Their names indeed from the North to the South Pole. Has not the Maha Chohan put His foot on that from the first? Has He not forbidden Mahatma K. H. to write to anyone? (Mr. _____ knows well all this.) And have not since then waves of supplications, torrents of desires and prayers poured unto Them? This is one of the chief reasons why Their names and personalities ought to have been kept secret and inviolable. They were desecrated in every possible way by believer and unbeliever, by the former when he would critically and from his worldly standpoint examine The= m (the Beings beyond and outside every worldly if not human law!), and when the latter positively slandered, dirtied, dragged Their names in the mud! O powers of heaven! what I have suffered - there are no words to express it. This is my chief, my greatest crime, for having brought Their personalities to public notice unwillingly, reluctantly, and forced into it by ____ and ____ . Well, now to other things. You and the Theosophists have come to the conclusion that in every case where a message was found couched in words or sentiments unworthy of Mahatmas it was produced either by elementals or my own falsification. Believing the latter, no honest man or woman ought for one moment to permit me, such a FRAUD, to remain any longer in the Society. It is not a piece of repentance and a promise that I shall do so no longer that you need, but to kick me out - if you really think so. You believe, yo= u say, in the Masters, and at the same time you can credit the idea that They should permit or even know of it and still use me! Why, if They are the exalted Beings you rightly suppose Them to be, how could They permit or tolerate for one moment such a deception and fraud? Ah, poor Theosophists - little you do know the occult laws I see. And here and others are right. Before you volunteer to serve the Masters you should learn Their philosophy= , for otherwise you shall always sin grievously, though unconsciously and involuntarily, against Them and those who serve Them, soul and body and spirit. Do you suppose for one moment that what you write to me now I did not know for years? Do you think that any person even endowed with simple sagacity, let alone occult powers, could ever fail to perceive each time suspicion when there was one, especially when it generated in the minds of honest, sincere people, unaccustomed to and incapable of hypocrisy? It is just that which killed me, which tortured and broke my heart inch by inch for years, for I had to bear it in silence and had no right to explain things unless permitted by Masters, and They commanded me to remain silent. To find myself day after day facing those I loved and respected best betwee= n the two horns of the dilemma - either to appear cruel, selfish, unfeeling b= y refusing to satisfy their hearts' desire, or, by consenting to it, to run the chance (9 out of 10) that they shall immediately feel suspicions lurkin= g in their minds, for the Master's answers and notes ("the red and blue spook-like messages," as ____ truly calls them) were sure in their eyes - again 9 times out of 10 - to be of that spook character. Why? Was it fraud? Certainly not. Was it written by and produced by elementals? NEVER. It was delivered and the physical phenomena are produced by elementals used for th= e purpose, but what have they, those senseless beings, to do with the intelligent portions of the smallest and most foolish message? Simply this, as this morning before the receipt of your letter, at 6 o'clock, I was permitted and told by Master to make you understand at last - you - and all the sincere, truly devoted Theosophists: as you sow, so you will reap. . . = . It is ALL YOU, Theosophists, who have dragged down in your minds the ideals of our MASTERS, you who have unconsciously and with the best of intentions and full sincerity of good purpose DESECRATED Them by thinking for one moment and believing that THEY would trouble Themselves with your business matters, sons to be born, daughters to be married, houses to be built, etc., etc. And yet, all those who have received such communications being nearly all sincere (those who were not have been dealt with according to other special laws), you had a right, knowing of the existence of Beings who you thought could easily help you, to seek help from Them, to address Them, once that a monotheist addresses his personal God, desecrating the GREAT UNKNOWN a million of times above the Masters - by asking Him (or IT) to help him with a good crop, to slay his enemy, and send him a son or daughter; and having such a right in the absolute sense, They could not spurn you off and refuse answering you, if not Themselves, then by ordering a Chela to satisfy the addressers to the best of his or hers [the chela's] ability. How many a time was I - no Mahatma - shocked and startled, burning with shame when shown notes from Chelas exhibiting mistakes in science, grammar, and thoughts expressed in such language that it perverted entirely the meaning originally intended, and having sometimes expressions that in Thibetan, Sanscrit, or any other Asiatic language had quite a different sense. As in one instance I will give. In answer to Mr._____ 's letter referring to some apparent contradictio= n in His. The Chela who was made to precipitate Mahatma K. H.'s reply put, "I had to exercise all my ingenuity to reconcile the two things." Now the term "ingenuity" used for and meaning candor, fairness, an obsolete word in this sense and never used now, but one meaning this perfectly, as even I find in Webster, was misconstrued by Massey, Hume, and I believe even _____ to mean "cunning," "cleverness," "acuteness" to form a new combination so as to prove there was no contradiction. Hence: the Mahatma was made apparently to confess most unblushingly to ingenuity, to using craft to reconcile things like an acute "tricky lawyer," etc., etc. Now had I been commissioned to write or precipitate the letter I would have translated the Master's though= t by using the word "ingenuousness," "openness of heart, frankness, fairness, freedom from reserve and dissimulation," as Webster gives it, and opprobriu= m thrown on Mahatma K. H.'s character would have been avoided. It is not I wh= o would have used "carbolic acid" instead of "carbonic acid," etc. It is very rarely that Mahatma K. H. dictated verbatim, and when He did there remained the few sublime passages found in Mr. Sinnett's letters from Him. The rest = - he would say - write so-and-so, and the Chela wrote often without knowing a word of English, as I am now made to write Hebrew and Greek and Latin, etc. Therefore the only thing I can be reproached with - a reproach I am ever ready to bear tho' I have not deserved it, having been simply the obedient and blind tool of our occult laws and regulations - is of having concealed that which the laws and regulations of my pledges did not permit me so far to reveal. I owned myself several times mistaken in policy, and now am punished for it with daily and hourly crucifixion. Pick up stones, Theosophists; pick them up, brothers and kind sisters, and stone me to death with them for such mistakes. Two or three times, perhaps more, letters were precipitated in my presence by a Chela who could not speak English and who took ideas and expressions out of my head. The phenomena in truth and solemn reality were greater at those times than ever. Yet they often appeared the most suspicious, and I had to hold my tongue, to see suspicion creeping into the minds of those I loved best and respected, unable to justify myself or say one word! What I suffered Master alone knew. Think only (a case with Solovioff's at _____) I sick in my bed: a letter of his, an old letter received in London and torn up by me, rematerialized in my own sight, I looking at the thing. Five or six lines in the Russian language in Mahatma K. H.'s handwriting in blue, the words taken from my head, the letter old and crumpled travelling slowly alone (even I could not see the astral hand of the Chela performing the operation) across the bedroom, then slipping into and among Solovioff's papers who was writing in the little drawing-roo= m correcting my manuscript, Olcott standing closely by him and having just handled the papers, looking over them with Solovioff, the latter finding it= , and like a flash I see in his head in Russian the thought "The old impostor (meaning Olcott) must have put it there"! - and such things by hundreds. Well - this will do. I have told you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so far as I am allowed to give it. Many are the things I have no right to explain if I had to be hung for it. Now think for one moment. Suppose _____ receives an order from his Master to precipitate = a letter to the _____ family, only a general idea being given to him about what he has to write. Paper and envelope are materialized before him, and h= e has only to form and shape the ideas into his English and precipitate them. What shall the result be? Why his English, his ethics and philosophy - his style all round. "A fraud, a transparent FRAUD!" people would cry out, and if any one happened to see such a paper before him or in his possession after it was formed, what should be the consequences? Another instance - I cannot help it, it is so suggestive. A man, now dead, implored me for three days to ask Master's advice on some business matter, for he was going to become a bankrupt and dishonor his family. A serious thing. He gave me a letter for Master "to send on." I went into the back parlor and he went down stairs to wait for the answer. Now to send on a letter two or three processes are used: (1) To put the envelope sealed on my forehead, and then, warning the Master to be ready fo= r a communication, have the contents reflected by my brain carried off to His perception by the current formed by Him. This, if the letter is in a language I know; otherwise, if in an unknown tongue, (2) to unseal it, read it physically with my eyes, without understanding even the words, and that which my eyes see is carried off to Master's perception and reflected in it in His own language, after which, to be sure, no mistake is made. I have to burn the letter with a stone I have (matches and common fire would never do), and the ashes caught by the current become more minute than atoms woul= d be, and are rematerialized at any distance where Master was. Well, I put the letter on the forehead opened, for it was in a language of which I know not one word, and when Master had seized its contents I was ordered to burn and send it on. It so happened that I had to go in my bedroom and get the stone there from a drawer it was locked in. That minute I was away, the addresser, impatient and anxious, had silently approached the door, entered the drawing-room, not seeing me there, and seen his own letter opened on the table. He was horror-struck, he told me later, disgusted, ready to commit suicide, for he was a bankrupt not only in fortune, but all his hopes, his faith, his heart's creed were crushed and gone. I returned, burnt the letter, and an hour after gave him the answer, also in his language. He read it with dull staring eyes, but thinking, as h= e told me, that if there were no Masters I was a Mahatma, did what he was told, and his fortune and honor were saved. Three days later he came to me and frankly told me all - did not conceal his doubts for the sake of gratitude, as others did - and was rewarded. By order of the Master I showe= d him how it was done and he understood it. Now had he not told me, and had his business gone wrong, advice notwithstanding, would not he have died believing me the greatest imposter on earth? So it goes. It is my heart's desire to be rid forever of any phenomena but my own mental and personal communication with Masters. I shall no more have anything to do whatever with letters or phenomenal occurrences. This I swea= r on Masters' Holy Names, and may write a circular letter to that effect. Please read the present to all, even to _____. FINIS all, and now Theosophists who will come and ask me to tell them so and so from Masters, may the Karma fall on their heads. I AM FREE. Master has just promised me this blessing !! Path, March, 1893 H. P. Blavatsky=20 =20 Dallas =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Jul 09 17:24:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4451 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 00:24:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 00:24:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 00:24:41 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.109] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DrPca-0001mE-LH; Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:24:39 -0400 To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 17:24:20 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c584e5$bf9cd1f0$6dd8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: High X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d0dfdf34f26fdead9d478c63e60b0e8e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.65 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: REINCARNATION AND THE BIBLE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=-4jE6cFyjGS-wKseUPrHAaj7ylY7_IBCU1dBQ3LQZJgxCQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 July 9 2005 Dear Friends: Again this subject returns, and perhaps this brief article may answer the point that there is evidence for reincarnation in the BIBLE itself: REINCARNATION AND THE BIBLE Reincarnation or re-embodiment is the lost chord of Christianity. It is a doctrine of the Jews and widely known at the time of Jesus' ministry. Jesu= s did not deny or contradict it. Jesus said he intended to uphold and buttress the law. We find Herod listening attentively to discussions that John or Jesus was this or that returning prophet or great man of olden times--speculating on the doctrine of reincarnation, of "coming back."=20=20 It was then a matter of court gossip, which, to an Eastern potentate, would be a warning that a returning great personage would of necessity have, not only knowledge but also power; and that people, if attracted to such a new leader, would have their minds inflamed beyond control with the idea that a wise one of old had returned to live and work with them. Reincarnation when brought to Jesus' attention is not found to be condemned= , refuted or denied by him, but tacitly accepted and even declared to be true= . This illustrated below. Old Jewish traditions held that the soul of Adam reincarnated in David and will have to come again in the expected Messiah. Hebrew interpreters said that since Adam had sinned it was necessary for him to reincarnate on earth to make good the evil committed by him. David sinned against Uriah... Thi= s doctrine was also applied by the Jewish Rabbis to Moses, Seth, and Abel (Habel). Cain died and was reincarnated as Yethrokorah. Similarly it was held by them that Bileam, Laban and Nabal were reincarnations of the same soul or individuality. Job is said to have been once Thara, the father of Abraham. We find Jeremiah speaking of Esau and Jacob "returning." And, th= e people spoke of Elias "who was yet to first come;" and also that some of the old prophets were there in Jesus and in John the Baptist. "Proverbs" gives the doctrine where Solomon says he was with the Creator "from the beginning" and that then his (Solomon's) delights were with the sons of men and in habitable parts of the earth. Matthew in Ch. 11, v. 14 relates what Jesus said concerning Elias "which wa= s for to come." Here he took the doctrine for granted. And, in the 17th Chapter he says among other things: "But I say unto you that Elias is come already, and they knew him not...and the disciples understood that he spake to them of John the Baptist." This is repeated in Mark Ch. 9, v. 13 but there the name of John is omitted. There is the case of the man born blind--Jesus neither denied nor condemned the doctrine when this was discussed. They asked Jesus if he had been punished by the Almighty or for some sin he had committed, or one done by his parents, thus voicing the accepted views of the doctrine of reincarnation. Jesus replied, saying that the cause was not because of pas= t sin, but for an extraordinary purpose.=20=20 In another case when he revived one whose death had not proceeded beyond recovery, this gave him an opportunity to demonstrate the powers he had. Had the doctrine been untrue and pernicious he would have denounced it. H= e did not, but brought up to his followers the case of John, on the coast of Caesarea Philippi. Jesus asked the disciples: "Who do men think that I am ?" using the prevailing idea of the time. (Matthew xvi, v. 13)=20=20 There he seems to have deliberately brought up the old doctrine to distinguish himself from the common lot of sages and prophets by showing himself to be an incarnation of God and not a reincarnation of any saint or sage. Had the doctrine been wrong, then was the time for Jesus to denounce it, putting his condemnation on it for all time. (see St. John, ix). St. John could have meant nothing but that doctrine when in Revelations, Ch= . iii, v, 12 he said: "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the templ= e of my God and he shall no more go out." Evidently he had "gone out" before= , or this could have no place or meaning. If the Church now does not agree with the views of Jesus, and chooses to explain them away, then we ought to consider giving up such Church views since they are guilty of doubting the wisdom of Jesus and his ability to conduct a great movement. The Church is well known to have promulgated dogmas and condemned doctrines wholly without any authority, and some that Jesus himself held it has placed anathema upon. The Church has cursed the doctrine he taught. Which is right? The true believer in Jesus must reply that Jesus is. Why should the Church have done this? Perhaps because such = a doctrine places all men on an equal basis, and hence, weakens the chosen position of the Church, as the human rulers of heaven and access thereto. = =20 Such an important doctrine, Jesus could not afford to pass over, and if it was wrong, it would be his duty to condemn it--we may then suppose that he would have done so were it not entirely right. He went further, affirming it and approving of it. We should also remember that Jesus said that his mission was primarily to the Jews and not the Gentiles: "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." John the Revealer (Revelations, 3, 12) says that the Almighty declared that the man who would overcome should "go out no more" from heaven. This is mere rhetoric if reincarnation is denied. St. Paul in his epistles refers to the cases of Jacob and Esau, saying that the Lord loved one and hated the other before they were born. They could not have been non-existent in that case, and the Lord (or Karma, the Law) held these views because of their past actions, which would shape their future. Origen, who died about A.D. 254, held to and taught "the original and indestructible unity of God and all spiritual essences." Origen, taught pre-existence, and the wanderings of the soul (a'leen b'gilgoola--cycle of rebirths with the Kabalists and the Talmudists, described in the Zohar)--an exile from Paradise. He gave pre-existence and transmigration as a necessary doctrine for the explaining of the vicissitudes of life and the inequalities of birth.=20=20 He was highly regarded by all in the early Church, and by his contemporarie= s outside of it. His teachings, and because of his influence continued, and, it was only some 500 years after Jesus, that the Church, at the Council of Constantinople saw fit to anathematize as pernicious the doctrine Jesus had taught and Origen and others had maintained, for the reasons given earlier. So, "pre-existence of the soul" fell out of the Church teachings in the Wes= t and became "lost." But it will and should be revived as one of the Founder's teachings; and, as it gives a forceful basis for ethics, it is i= n all truth, one of the most basic and powerful of teachings. Origen also taught the doctrine of unity with God, of the final restoration of all soul= s to pristine purity, and, of their necessary pre-existence. If we would consider that the soul, when united to the Spirit and not the animal, passional soul, is pure, of the essence of God, and desirous of immortality through a person, we may understand that the personality may fail, and not be fit for unity with the spiritual soul. So, ongoing in its quest, other personalities are ensouled. Each one, if a failure in respect to union with the Spirit passes into the sum of experience. But, finally, = a personal birth is found wherein all former experiences are united, affirmed and union is gained with the Spirit. From then onward there can be no falling back. Immortality through a personality has been attained. Prior to this great event the soul existed and hence the doctrine of pre-existence.=20=20 This is a process which is within the grasp of all men--each being considered as embodying a "ray" from God-Spirit. The Higher Self, the Augoeides has existed from all time. It may cause rebirths, but not be itself reborn as it merely overshadows each birth without being, itself, wholly in the flesh. Mystical this may appear, but it provides for each human his personal God, within, and That is united to all such Spirits, to be seen in the infinite radiations of the One GOD-SPIRIT. When at last the modern Churches will admit that its Founder and his disciples believed in pre-existence, and that Jesus did not condemn it, a long step will be taken towards eliminating may intolerant and illogical doctrines now held. A great step towards sympathy and universal brotherhoo= d will be taken. The Sermon on the Mount is of high importance--if taken literally it appear= s to be a string of meaningless promises. These commandments are broken daily. But the ideas of Karma (justice and retribution) and Reincarnation (the return of the Soul to earth to balance its accounts of a moral nature) are seen to be important and fundamental ethical doctrines. Every ancient reformer, prophet or sage prior to Jesus' time promulgated and emphasized these ideas to his people and times.=20=20 Wisdom and Truth are synonymous terms, and that which is false or perniciou= s cannot be wise. If it is true, as we are told by a well-known representative of the Church of England, that the Sermon on the Mount would= , in its practical application, mean utter ruin for his country in less than three weeks, we are left to choose between two courses.=20=20 We have either to take Science and Theology on blind trust and faith, or proclaim them both untrue and untrustworthy. There is however a third course, as many do and take, and that is pretend to believe in both at the same time, and say nothing as many do, pandering to the prejudices of Society.=20=20 The ethics of Christ alone purge the mind of hypocrisy for the true believer. Science to be honest and true must embrace and investigate every event brought to its attention without prejudice or preconception. This is the only hope for truth to prevail in this age, and all of us are participants in this process. The choice is ours. Best wishes, Dallas =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 04:52:20 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75249 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 11:52:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 11:52:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 11:52:17 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.40] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DraLr-0003fu-1x; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:52:11 -0400 To: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 04:51:51 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01c58545$c91f3370$288cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79543ba5f2898b3945cbbb858373715f80350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: psychology/psychiatry and Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=Axezu04HdFI7XFLuh2Nb4OlhOC4kn1AwQ9bLP52qgTNUpQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 July 10 2005 Dear Reed and Henry: These definitions seem helpful to me =09 PSYCHOLOGY -- Study of Soul Powers Statements and Warnings by HPB "Psychism, with all its allurements and all its dangers, is necessarily developing among you, and you might beware lest the Psychic outruns the Manasic and Spiritual development. Psychic capacities held perfectly under control, checked and directed by the manasic principle, are valuable aids i= n development. But these capacities running riot controlling instead of controlled, using instead of being used, lead the Student into the most dangerous delusions and the certainty of moral destruction. Watch therefor= e carefully this development, inevitable in your race and evolution-period so that it may finally work for good and not for evil..." HPB -- 5 Messages, p. 29 "[Bhagavad Gita] embodies "the psychological system of the Hindus--which really underlies every word of this poem..." Gita Notes, p. 2 Moral States Classified "The following classification and discussion of the three qualities ( B. Gita, Ch. 14) illustrates the vital difference between the ancient, true psychology of the East, and what is termed Western psychology. Both abound in classifications; those of the East are much more numerous...and cover a wider field; Western psychology in its classifications refers solely to mental states. The psychology of the Gita and the ancient sages classify the moral states, treating the mental states as mere effects produced by moral conditions. Herein lies the secret of the hold the Gita has had all down the ages, and continues to have increasingly. It lays bare the unsuspected bases of error; it discloses the most subtle forms of self-delusion; it marks out the true course so painstakingly that the dullest mind cannot fail to grasp a clear perception of the path to true knowledge." G. N. p. 197 "...the word Kama...means "desire,"...the 4th principle was the "body or mass of desires and passions." [GITA NOTES 197: -- "Western psychology in classifications refers solely to mental states...[Eastern} and the ancient sages classifies the moral states, treating the mental states as mere effects produced by moral conditions...It lays bare unsuspected bases of error; it discloses the most subtle forms of self-delusion; it marks out the true course so painstakingly that the dullest mind cannot fail to grasp a clear perception of the path to true knowledge."]...The West divides man into intellect, will and feeling, but it is not understood whether the passions and desires constitute a principle in themselves or are due entirely to the body..."desires of the flesh,"... "fleshly appetites."=09=20 OCEAN 45 Western Scientific Psychology Stymied "The lack of an adequate system of Psychology is a natural consequence of the materialistic bias of Science and the paralyzing influence of dogmatic religion; the one ridiculing effort and blocking the way, the other forbidding investigation...Real psychology is an Oriental product today...the system was known in the West when a very ancient civilization flourished in America, and in certain parts of Europe anterior to the Christian era, but for the present day, psychology in its true sense belong= s to the Orient... "In man are the same powers and forces which are to be found anywhere in Nature. He is held by the Masters of Wisdom to be the highest product of the whole system of evolution, and mirrors in himself every power, however wonderful or terrible, of Nature; by the very fact of being such a mirror he is man." OCEAN 135-6 "Some day proofs as conclusive [as that of the theory of Evolution in the Rig Veda or the Books of Hermes] will be discovered of the reliability of the ancient writers as their evidence on psychological matters...There can be no real enfranchisement of human thought nor expansion of scientific discovery until the existence of spirit is recognized." HPB Mod. Pan. p. 9= 3 Passions and Desires "The passions and desires are not produced by the body...on the contrary, the body is caused by the former. it is desire and passion which caused us to be born, and will bring us to birth again and again in some body on this earth...[it] is the balance principle of the whole 7. It stands in the middle, and from it the ways go up or down. It is the basis of action, and the mover of the will..."Behind will stands desire." OCEAN 46 "[Low desires] the constant placing of the consciousness entirely below in the body or astral body... [High desires] the influence of and aspiration to the trinity above, of Mind, Buddhi and Spirit... [During life] the emplacement of the desires and passions is...throughout the entire lower man...it may be added to or diminished, made weak or increased in strength, debased or purified. [After death] it (Kama) informs the astral body, which then becomes a mere shell; for when a man dies his astral body and principle of passion and desire leave the physical in company and coalesce, It is then that the ter= m Kamarupa may be applied, as Kamarupa is really made of astral body and Kama in conjunction, and this joining of the two makes a shape or form which though ordinarily invisible is material and may be brought into visibility. Although it is empty of mind and conscience, it has powers of its own that can be exercised whenever the conditions permit. These conditions are furnished by the medium of the spiritualists, and in every seance room the astral shells of deceased persons are always present to delude the sitters... For the astral spook--or Kamarupa--is but the mass of the desire= s and passions abandoned by the real person who has fled to "heaven and has n= o concern with the people left behind, least of all with seances and mediums. Hence, being devoid of the nobler soul, these desires and passions work onl= y on the very lowest part of the medium's nature and stir up no good elements= , but always the lower leanings of the being... The Kamarupa spook is the enemy of our civilization, which permits us to execute men for crimes committed and thus throws out into the ether the mas= s of passion and desire free from the weight of the body and liable at any moment to be attracted to any sensitive person. Being thus attracted, the deplorable images of crimes committed and also the picture of the execution and all the accompanying curses and wishes for revenge are implanted in living persons, who, not seeing the evil, are unable to throw it off. Thus crimes and new ideas of crimes are willfully propagated every day by those countries where capital punishment prevails." OCEAN 47-48 Danger of Exercising Psychic Powers "To attempt to acquire the use of the psychic powers for mere curiosity or for selfish ends is also dangerous for the same reasons as in the case of mediumship. As the...present day is selfish to the last degree and built o= n the personal element, the rules for these powers in the right way have not been given out, but the Masters of Wisdom have said that philosophy and ethics must first be learned and practiced before any development of the other department [psychism] is indulged in... Equally improper is the manner of the scientific schools which...indulge in experiments in hypnotism in which the subjects are injured for life...=20 "The Lodge of the Masters does not care for Science unless it aims to bette= r man's state morally as well as physically, and no aid will be given to Science until she looks at man and life from the moral and spiritual side. For this reason, those who know all about the psychical world, its denizens and laws, are proceeding with a reform in morals and philosophy before any great attention will be accorded to the strange and seductive phenomena possible for the inner powers of man." OCEAN 152 S O U L -- M I N D=20 MAN - THE SOLE FREE AGENT "...man is a free agent during his stay on earth. He cannot escape his ruling Destiny, but he has the choice of two paths that lead him in that direction, and he can reach the goal of misery--if such is decreed to him, either in the snowy white robes of the Martyr, or in the soiled garments of a volunteer in the iniquitous course; for, there are external and internal conditions which affect the determination of our will upon our actions, and it is in our power to follow either of the two...this destiny is guided either by the heavenly voice of the invisible prototype outside of us, or b= y our more intimate astral, or inner man, who is but too often the evil geniu= s of the embodied entity called man. Both these lead on the outward man, but one of them must prevail; and from the very beginning of the invisible affray the stern and implacable law of compensation steps in and takes its course, faithfully following the fluctuations...this self-made destiny..." SD I 639 "...Consciousness is not developed; Consciousness always is. It is intelligence which is developed in different ways, in different degrees of substance, on different planes of being. The intelligence gained is an understanding of externalities in their relation to Consciousness itself...This acquired intelligence is the basis of the Archetypal World, i= n which types are formulated...it is Consciousness first, last and all the time at the root of all manifestation. Always the Perceiver is behind ever= y form. What is learned in regard to externalities or any instrument is the amount of intelligence gained...as that intelligence increases it becomes the basis on which better instruments are formed." Q & A 203-4 PURPOSE - THE GOAL "...the Universe, which manifests periodically, for the purposes of the collective progress of the countless lives." SD I 268 "The soul emerges from the unknown, begins to work in and with matter, is reborn again and again, makes karma, develops the six vehicles for itself, meets retribution for sin and punishment for mistake, grows stronger by suffering, succeeds in bursting through the gloom, is enlightened by the true illumination, grasps power, retains charity, expands with love for humanity, and thenceforth helps all others who remain in darkness until all may be raised up to the place with the "Father in Heaven" who is the Higher Self."=09 "The Mahatmas as Ideals & Facts" WQJ ART II 39 "The course of Being is an ever-becoming. Ever-becoming is endless, therefore beginningless. This solar system and its planets of course had a beginning and will have an ending, but every manifestation is but a further becoming of that which had been. Periods of Manifestation and Non-Manifestation succeed each other in Infinite Space, to which neither beginning nor ending can be applied...The ancient way of stating any beginning is, "the Desire first arose in It;" It referring to Spirit, whic= h is the cause and sustainer of all that was, is, or shall be. There is a beginning to the first glimmerings of external consciousness, which ever tends to widen its range of perception and manifestation until it encompasses and becomes at one with All; Potential Spirit having become Potent Intelligence. The ending of the process results in a new beginning based upon the totality of intelligence attained. Whatever begins in time ends in time. Time is due to perceptions in Consciousness; as the Secret Doctrine says...beginnings and endings pertain to that "illusion," and not to the beginningless and endless Spirit which is the Perceiver. As the Git= a says: "The Spirit in the body, is called Maheshwara, the great Lord, the Spectator, the admonisher, the sustainer, the enjoyer, and also the Paramatma the highest soul;" itself without beginning or ending, it makes beginnings and endings in manifestations, which as manifestations are beginningless and endless in their turn." Q & A 102-3 SPIRITUAL SOUL - HIGHER MIND - EGO - BUDDHI-MANAS "...the higher Mind in Man, or his Ego (Manas) is, when linked indivisibly with Buddhi, a spirit..."=20 GLOS 306-7 "...Occultism calls this the seventh principle [Atma], the synthesis of the six, and gives it for vehicle the Spiritual Soul, Buddhi...in conjunction these two are One, impersonal and without any attributes (on this plane)...= " KEY, 120 "The Spiritual divine EGO is the Spiritual Soul, or Buddhi in close union with Manas, the mind-principle, without which it is no EGO at all, but only the Atmic Vehicle." KEY 176 "Buddhi becomes conscious by the accretions it gets from Manas after every new incarnation..." SD I 244 "Plato defines Soul (Buddhi) as "the motion that is able to move itself." "Soul"..."is the most ancient of all things, and the commencement of motion," thus calling Atma-Buddhi "Soul,"... which we do not." KEY 114 "It is by development that the soul becomes spirit, both being at the lower and the higher rungs of one and the same ladder whose basis is the Universa= l Soul or spirit." HPB II 306 "...there is no impossibility in supposing [ that the Ego is a "god on a higher plane"] so surrounded by the clouds of matter as to become latent or hidden until the time when the form suitable for this plane is evolved...that Ego, who is the Spectator of all things...[the Self] ..." FORUM ANSWERS 108 "...Pythagoras...described the Soul as a self-moving Unit Monad) composed o= f 3 elements, the Nous (Spirit), the phren (mind), and the thumos (life, breath or the Nephesh of the Kabalists), which 3 correspond to our "Atma-Buddhi," (higher Spiritual-Soul), to Manas (the EGO), and to Kama Rup= a in conjunction with the lower reflection of Manas." KEY 94 "...[the Agnishwatta Pitris] were destined to incarnate as the Egos of the forthcoming crop of Mankind. The human Ego is neither Atman nor Buddhi, bu= t the higher Manas: the intellectual fruition and the efflorescence of the intellectual self-conscious Egotism--in the higher spiritual sense. The ancient works refer to it as Karana Sarira on the plane of the Sutratma, which is the golden thread on which, like beads, the various personalities of this higher Ego are strung...these beings were returning Nirvanees, from preceding Maha-Manvantaras--ages of incalculable duration..." S D II 79 "The Ego does not enter the body at any time...the connection of the Ego with the body--by means of the principle Manas--is made in general, at seve= n years of age, and from then on the Ego is involved or entangled in body. But before such material entanglement it was first caught and involved in the passions and desires...kama--which is always the efficient or producing cause for the embodiment of the Ego. This kama is known to form a part of the skandhas or aggregates, of which the material body is one." Forum Answers 47 "...man...Spiritual Fire is its instructor (Guru)...This fire is the higher Self, the Spiritual Ego, or that which is eternally reincarnating under the influence of its lower personal Selves, changing with every re-birth, full or Tanha or desire to live. It is a strange law of Nature, that on this plane, the higher (Spiritual) Nature should be, so to say, in bondage to th= e lower. Unless the Ego takes refuge in the Atman, the ALL-SPIRIT, and merge= s entirely into the essence thereof, the personal Ego may goad it to the bitter end...That which propels towards, and forces evolution, i.e., compel= s the growth and development of Man towards perfection, is (a) the MONAD, or that which acts in it unconsciously through a force inherent in itself; an= d (b) the lower astral body or the personal SELF...unless the higher Self or EGO gravitates towards its Sun--the Monad--the lower Ego, or personal Self, will have the upper hand in every case. For it is this Ego, with its fierc= e Selfishness and animal desire to live a Senseless life (Tanha), which is "the maker of the tabernacle" as Buddha calls it...the Atman alone warms th= e inner man; i.e., it enlightens it with the ray of divine life and alone is able to impart to the inner man, or the reincarnating Ego, its immortality.= " SD II 109-110 MANAS - THE HUMAN SOUL - MIND - INTELLECTUALITY "...the thinking Soul or mind..." KEY 74 "...the Soul, Psyche..." KEY 91 "...man and Soul have to conquer their immortality by ascending towards the unity." KEY 102 "...the Soul of man (or his higher "principles, and attributes")...(as defined by Pythagoras, Plato, and Timmaeus of Locris)...[ are derived ] from the Universal World Soul...AEther (Pater Zeus)..." KEY 104 "...the reasoning soul comes from within the Universal Soul..." KEY 105 =20 "From the fact that the soul (Higher Manas) is conjoined in the body with the organ of thought (Lower Manas), and thus with the whole of Nature, lack of discrimination follows, produces misconceptions of duties and responsibilities." PAT 24-5 "...the work of the soul is to seek Wisdom, and the substance of earthly wisdom is to know Universal Wisdom." MODERN PANARION, 379 "Since Manas, in its lower aspect, is the seat of the terrestrial mind, it can, therefore, give only that perception of the Universe which is based on the evidence of that mind; it cannot give spiritual vision." KEY 158 "...Manas-Taijasi, the Buddhi-lit human soul...if it can be said of Buddhi that it is unconditionally immortal, the same cannot be said of Manas...no post-mortem consciousness or Manas-Taijasi, can exist apart from Buddhi, th= e divine soul, because the first (Manas) is, in its lower aspect, a qualificative attribute of the terrestrial personality...In its turn, Buddh= i would remain only an impersonal spirit without this element which it borrow= s from the human soul, which conditions and makes of it. in this illusive Universe, as it were something separate from the universal soul for the whole period of the cycle of incarnation. Say rather that Buddhi-Manas can neither die nor lose its compound self-consciousness in Eternity, nor the recollections of its previous incarnations..." HPB ART II 198-9 LOWER MANAS - PERSONALITY - ANIMAL SOUL "Astral Soul," another name for the lower Manas, or Kama-Manas so-called, the reflection of the Higher Ego." GLOS 37 "...Anoia, (folly, or the irrational animal Soul)..." KEY 91 "...the instinctual soul...derived from and through and ever influenced by the moon [astral light]..."=09 KEY 96 "The Soul of man (i.e., the personality) per se, is neither immortal, eternal, nor divine." KEY 106 "From the fact that the soul (Higher Manas) is conjoined in the body with the organ of thought (Lower Manas), and thus with the whole of Nature, lack of discrimination follows, produces misconceptions of duties and responsibilities." PAT 24-5 "...the animal soul, that which becomes a ghost after death, when lust or liking or the memory of ill-deeds holds it to the neighbourhood of human beings..." L on P p. 49 WHY THE UNIVERSE ? - WHY THE SOUL ? "The Universe (visible and invisible--compounded of purity, action and rest)...exists for the sake of the soul's experience and emancipation...For the sake of the soul alone, the Universe exists..." PAT 25-6 "the soul is the Perceiver; is assuredly vision itself pure and simple; unmodified; and looks directly upon ideas." PAT 26 "Spirit is universal...It cannot know itself except as Soul. Spirit is the "power to become;" Soul is "the becoming." Spirit is the power to see and know; Soul is the seeing and knowing. Soul is the accumulation of perceptions and experiences by means of which Spiritual Identity is realized." Q & A 21 (see GLOS 306) "...a soul which thirsts after a reunion with its spirit, which alone confers upon it immortality, must purify itself through cyclic transmigration..." KEY 111 "What then is the universe for, and for what purpose is man the immortal thinker here in evolution? It is all for the experience and emancipation o= f the soul, for the purpose of raising the entire mass of manifested matter u= p to the stature, nature, and dignity of conscious god-hood. The great aim i= s the reach self-consciousness; not through a race or a tribe of some favore= d nation, but by and through the perfecting, after transformation, of the whole mass of matter as well as what we now call soul. Nothing is or is to be left out. The aim for present man is his initiation into complete knowledge, and for the other kingdoms below him that they may be raised up gradually from stage to stage to be in time initiated also. This is evolution carried to its highest power; it is a magnificent prospect; it makes of man a god, and gives to every part of nature the possibility of being some day the same; there is strength and nobility in it, for by this no man is dwarfed and belittled, for no one is so originally sinful that he cannot rise above all sin." OCEAN, 60-1 "Starting upon the long journey immaculate; descending more and more into sinful matter, and having connected himself with every atom in manifested Space--the Pilgrim, having struggled through and suffered in every form of life and being, is only at the bottom of the valley of matter, and half through his cycle, when he has identified himself with collective Humanity. This, he has made in his own image. In order to progress upwards and homewards, the "God" has to now ascend the weary uphill path of the Golgoth= a of Life. It is the martyrdom of self-conscious existence. Like Visvakarma= n he has to sacrifice himself to himself in order to redeem all creatures, to resurrect from the many into the One Life. Then he ascends into heaven indeed; where, plunged into the incomprehensible absolute Being and Bliss of Paranirvana, he reigns unconditionally, and whence he will re-descend again at the next "coming," which one portion of humanity expects in its dead-letter sense as the second advent, and the other as the last "Kalki Avatar." SD I 268 "Theosophy considers humanity as an emanation from divinity on its return path hereto. At an advanced point upon the path, Adeptship is reached by those who have devoted several incarnations to its achievement...many incarnations are necessary for it after the formation of a conscious purpos= e and the beginning of the needful training..." KEY 214-5 =09 Some Notes derived from studying HPB ( A Student's Notes and Guesses ) =09=09 Metaphysics is the "mother-plant" of psychology. It is a science of first principles. The Esoteric Philosophy recognizes in the ultimate analysis that there is only One Reality. This lies behind the illusions (Maya) of our Universe of forms. It is called variously Sat or Para-Brahm, the "Great Unknown." There is a continual circuit of manifestation followed by rest (pralaya, or non-manifestation - a supra-physical, "spiritual" state). This compares with our cycle of sleeping and waking. The duality, in manifestation of Spirit and Matter is a fact. These emerge from the One Reality, and are found in ancient philosophy designated as the Word (Logos)--Spirit; and, Matter (Mula-prakriti) --Root Matter. They equilibrate each other constantly. The great Law of cause and effect, measured, regular, constant and consistent, ever merciful and totally just runs continuously through all periods. It has been called variously: the One Life, Karma, the "Great Breath." It works in and on everyone impartially. One of the chief differences between antique psychological philosophical systems and the modern is that in antiquity, the moral states were classified. States of Consciousness and Perception were held to be the result of those moral conditions. Morality is defined as those acts, thoughts and feeling which harmonize wit= h the Great Law of the Evolutionary progress of the Universe. Of necessity this is universal in scope, considers the value and necessity of every creature, every particle of substance. Nothing is excluded or held to be unrelated to its all-encompassing purview. Immorality is held to be anything adverse, by definition it is limited, selfish, acquisitive defensive of territory and possessions. Eastern Psychology recognizes in Man's conscious constitution several distinct and active principles: 1. The Emotions: feelings, desires, needs and wants, all centered around the personality the "I"-self in waking consciousness. It i= s very "territorial." These are seen to come and go and change constantly. It rarely considers consequences, is rash and wayward. 2. The Mind: thoughts, imagination, fancy, ability to study and analyze, memory, extrapolation, etc... This is called the True Self an= d the Individual. This sense of Individuality persists throughout the life i= n spite of many changes. It is "superior" to the "emotional, the selfish self, as it can control and direct it. It tends to be deliberate and considers results that may accrue to actions. 3. In waking consciousness these two are combined to form two operative points of dialog: There is an alliance between one aspect of the mind and the emotions. This makes up the "Lower Mind" - selfish, territorial, vicious, amatory, etc... The second unit is that aspect of th= e mind which coalesces with experience, with the memory of results and considers those which are beneficial to itself or dangerous in potential. It has been called "The Higher Mind." One of its faculties is to access to the common and universal plane of Mentality in the Universe where results o= f all past events and actions are recorded. ["Actions" include: desires, thoughts, and physical acts.] 4. Mind (Soul) is that which persists. In Eastern psychology it is held that it constitutes an unbreakable thread of consciousness between the life experiences of this personality and that of previous personalities ensouled by it through the process of reincarnation. 5. Mind is allied, in it higher, nobler aspect, to a principle of Universal Wisdom--the source of Law, Karma, Justice and Progress. It ha= s been named Wisdom, Buddhi. This the Higher Mind is called Buddhi-Manas to use terms that philosophers employ in Sanskrit. The "Lower Mind" is denote= d Kama-Manas, or the desire-mind. This last informs the personality and give= s it its awareness. It transfers constantly its impressions to the Higher Mind, and at the death of the body it makes a final transfer to the Higher Mind. This becomes the conveyor of the life of the Entity through a review and resting period to its eventual return on Earth in a new body. 6. Intuition and the "Voice of Conscience" are evidence of the communications between the Higher and the Lower Minds during life. The Higher, having access to past experience in full, warns the lower, when necessary at the time when it makes decisions or choices. These may or may not be heeded by the embodied Lower Mind. Consequences ensue and this is called "Karma," the ledger balance of all our activities, visible and invisible, physical or immaterial. 7. We are part of a vast host of intelligences. Men-minds like ourselves, and levels of consciousness represented by the animals, plants, minerals and other elements of the Universe. It is also reasonable to consider that there are our predecessors on the Ladder of Evolution. Those once men like ourselves who have progressed to a wiser and wider view of things. Like our teachers, instructors and professors they remain as assistants, whose advise is available to those of us who care to seek for and ask for it. 8. The subject of the "will." or the executive power which transfers an "idea" into an action is also to be considered. It is volitional, directive, serves as a bridge between the mind and the hands that work in the world of physical matter. It is "colorless." It can be employed by either the Lower or the Higher Mind. 9. The Buddha was the greatest of psychologists. He showed the inquirer how to understand Suffering as part of a pair. Happiness was the alternative. There is something in Man which sees both sides. This sensitivity evokes compassion. To refrain from hurting others while gently but firmly insisting on equity is the study of the ages. The personal application leads to Adeptship through true non-violence. 10. The Higher Self is common to all it being Atma, and universal. As a drop resides in the Ocean, so the Higher Self of each individual resides in the Universal Spirit. It is at once a part of THAT, and yet is individualized. We therefore share in all the sufferings and th= e pleasures of others. We are their brothers and sisters in Spirit. 11. Each individual has to come to the realization that he alone will save or damn himself.=20=20 12. Each one is morally obliged to assist all others when able to do so. The motive for such assistance has to be disinterested, to be true. Reincarnation -- A Basic Fact "A student of occultism...gets into...a vortex of occultism...he passes int= o the whirl caused by the mighty effort of his Higher Self to make him remember his past lives. Then those lives affect him..." LETTERS 15. "Getting back the memory of past lives is the whole of the process." LETTERS p. 78=20=20 [ see also WQJ ART I 571 bottom, II 462 middle ] ---------------------------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Reed Carson [mailto:reed3@blavatsky.net]=20 Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 11:35 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] Re: psychology/psychiatry and Theosophy Henry, You have raised some points at the end of your letter that it happens have= =20 interested me also for a long time. cut From ringding@online.de Sun Jul 10 08:56:54 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49757 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 15:56:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 15:56:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.177) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 15:56:53 -0000 Received: from p54BF8D10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.141.16] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML21M-1DreAi2c1D-0004vd; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:56:48 +0200 Message-ID: <004101c58568$14a99c00$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:57:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.177 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: The missing six millions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=x_e8oFKfwFxlim9EbXbi8O5i4QgIS72rNAG7mrDNgEbgmSralTnXLgE8pA X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was just reading the pdf-book "The first Holocaust" by Don Heddesheimer at http://vho.org/dl/ENG/tfh.pdf. The author quotes American newspaper of the mid-1920'ies claiming that 6 millions Jews were killed in Europe. Obviously the first Holocaust, performed to silence resistance against the zionists plan to steal the Palestinean their home land as Mahatma Gandhi decribes it so well. I want like to know whether a theosophist in USA has additional information about this first holocaust or access to the original newspaper articles. There appeared in 1919 in "The American Hebrew" obviously the first time the 6 million story. >From the theosophical point of view the story is interesting in several ways. The story has become the world leading religion, all other religious leaders have to pay their respects and proclaim publicly the Holocaustism dogmas: The pope, the Dalai Lama up to theosophical magazines (even in one of the latest issues of Theosophy World appeared a strange story about it). Although they all are forced to repeat and repeat the dogmas, any doubt and scientific research is forbidden and dangerous for life. One is forced to stick down on a mere emotional level, disabling manas and believe blindly what the new priests of the West pray. As the TM was launched to help the truth come to the front theosophists and theosophical institutions should take measures to investigate this most powerful religion, or rather pseudo-religion, and its most fanatic dogmas. Frank [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 09:45:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74018 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 16:45:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 16:45:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 16:45:05 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 16:45:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.92] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 16:45:05 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:45:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 392 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.42 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 128.241.111.85 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial: Overviews X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=tygLHjnMVuncC1vygBbq5d4DmiQ08a3lqs2VP_N1WdcdHYaiiS25iyul X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The Holocaust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust Holocaust Resources for Main Article above http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_%28resources%29 Extermination Camps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp Holocaust Denial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial Holocaust Denial Examined http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial_examined Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 09:53:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5682 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 16:53:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 16:53:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.39) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 16:53:34 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 16:53:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.89] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 16:53:34 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:53:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 180 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.39 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 128.241.111.85 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Leon Maurer's Testimony about the Holocaust Ignored by Frank Reitemeyer X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=3TX-Oev-nlvH2zjBG5l-_-jLf89vIIguZZxQ4BvxUG_5Dek54RGfUxpS X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Leon Maurer's Testimony about the Holocaust Ignored by Frank Reitemeyer See Leon's testimony at: http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200311/tt00131.html Daniel http://hpb.cc From ringding@online.de Sun Jul 10 10:09:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64954 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 17:09:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 17:09:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.186) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 17:09:05 -0000 Received: from p54BF8D10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.141.16] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKxQS-1DrfIb39hZ-0007bW; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:09:01 +0200 Message-ID: <004f01c58572$2b2ecae0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:09:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.186 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:4:8 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial: Overviews X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=QzSI8ScaMZ9Nu5slbfRaUXaOolU4i_AKyaH_2_rIIssgbHYw9gndKVaHXQ X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Thanks Daniel, for the links of the pro holo party. Obviously, on Wikipedia one can find all their dogmas collected. But what is the theosophical point of view? What is your point of view, Daniel? In one of your links "extermination camps" the concentration camp Auschwitz is labeled as extermination camp, following 60 years of communistic propaganda. It may be of interest that - despite of pressure and persecution - there are some of the few true researchers (the most authors write form hearsay) which do not agree with this dogma. Friedjof Meyer for example. Or read what Jewish reseacher Gitta Sereny says: "Following Finkelstein's "Holocaust Industry", Great Britain's foremost Jewish journalist, author and holocaust researcher, Gitta Sereny, smacked the entire official holocaust literature and holocaust court rulings in the face: "Why on earth have all these people who made Auschwitz into a sacred cow ... A terrible place -- but it was not an extermination camp." --The Times, London, Aug. 29, 2001. Auschwitz was, according to the official holocaust dogma, known as the universe of extermination." http://globalfire.tv/nj/03en/persecution/zundel1.htm How do you explain such extraordinary contradictions and constrasting opinions? Daniel, do you believe that during WW I 6 million Jews were killed by Germans? Do you also believe that during WW II another 6 million Jews were killed by Germans? Do you believe that 12 million Jews were killed and that the materialization of the heavenly Israel down to Earth was a compensation for the Zionists? And how do you judge it in light of what religious Jews say in contrast to it: "The State of "Israel" does not represent the voice of Judaism and/or the Jewish people. The Torah clearly forbids the formation of a State, for the Jewish people, in their time of exile." http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/062504Vienna.cfm What is the theosophical position to the physical state of Israel? Does Theosophy support a state of Israel is therefore to be regarded as anti-Jewish? Or does Theosophy oppose a state of Israel and is therefore to be regarded as anti-Zionistic? Or does Theosophy hold a third position? Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 6:45 PM Subject: Theos-World The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial: Overviews The Holocaust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust Holocaust Resources for Main Article above http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_%28resources%29 Extermination Camps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp Holocaust Denial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial Holocaust Denial Examined http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial_examined Daniel http://hpb.cc From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Sun Jul 10 10:33:16 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: anandgholap@anandgholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43025 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 17:33:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 17:33:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smx3.net4india.com) (202.71.129.73) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 17:33:15 -0000 Received: from [203.187.209.13] (helo=k) by smx3.net4india.com with esmtp (Exim 4.51) id 1Drf07-0000Z0-8x for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:19:55 +0530 Message-ID: <3817-220057010164714609@k> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:17:14 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: 202.71.129.73 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Life After Death (AnandGholap.Net-Online Theosophy) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566; y=pVlZm362Mnx3lJjcJWr-PzhHa-vWGpiXuoIiR4ilvEBWPlA_42K5sBE X-Yahoo-Profile: anandgholap_net [ www.AnandGholap.net - Online Books on Theosophy ] "Death is the laying aside of the physical body; but it makes no more diffe= rence to the ego than does the laying aside of an overcoat to the physical = man. Having put off his physical body, the ego continues to live in his ast= ral body until the force has become exhausted which has been generated by s= uch emotions and passions as he has allowed himself to feel during earth li= fe. When that has happened, the second death takes place; the astral body a= lso falls away from him, and he finds himself living in the mental body and= in the lower mental world. In that condition he remains until the thought = forces generated during his physical and astral lives have worn themselves = out; then he drops the third vehicle in its turn and remains once more an e= go in his own world, inhabiting his causal body. 173. There is, the= n, no such thing as death as it is ordinarily understood. There is only a s= uccession of stages in a continuous life =96 stages lived in the three worl= ds one after another. The apportionment of time between these three worlds = varies much as man advances. The primitive man lives almost exclusively in = the physical world, spending only a few years in the astral at the end of e= ach of his physical lives. As he develops, the astral life becomes longer, = and as intellect (Page 64) unfolds in him, and he becomes able to think, he= begins to spend a little time in the mental world as well. The ordinary ma= n of civilized races remains longer in the mental world than in the physica= l and astral; indeed, the more a man evolves the longer becomes his mental = life and the shorter his life in the astral world." Complete book can be read at=20 http://www.anandgholap.net/Textbook_Of_Theosophy-CWL.htm From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 10:39:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16422 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 17:39:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 17:39:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.39) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 17:39:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:38:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.91] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:38:32 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:38:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 227 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.39 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 128.241.111.85 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: At the Solemn Moment of Death: Dying & Soon After X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=KrA45kDMzkwEIwEXzYs5DVisYFGZaC06vPS-WC1L7AB2d3FTtO_OtQka X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell At the Solemn Moment of Death: Dying & Soon After A Collation from the Writings of H.P. Blavatsky & the Mahatmas See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/deathml.htm Daniel H. Caldwell Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 10:40:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74179 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 17:40:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 17:40:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.45) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 17:40:03 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n16.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:40:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.82] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:40:02 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:40:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 204 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.45 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 128.241.111.85 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Life After Death in Kamaloka (the Astral World): Blavatsky versus Leadbeater X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=8bD7BTYL8XC58d32_3Yyr2wBGTbO96uBK0G1n9RLtD2aBmMX-mwLRgVK X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Life After Death in Kamaloka (the Astral World): H.P. Blavatsky versus C.W. Leadbeater See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/morganafterdeath.htm Daniel H. Caldwell Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 10:43:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86561 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 17:43:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 17:43:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.51) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 17:43:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n22.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:43:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.79] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:43:09 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:43:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 401 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.51 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 128.241.111.85 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: As a Butterfly in Its Chrysalis X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=Puk1ceKVoy0yV8_AeeE_TTFy8UDDe6_dJR8_Y8CtI0Fxf7HX3yTl0ty5 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell As a Butterfly in Its Chrysalis "In that world. . . .we find but unconscious, self-acting, ex-human machines, souls in their transition state, whose dormant faculties and individuality lie as a butterfly in its chrysalis; and Spiritualists would yet have them talk sense! . . . . " See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/mon/monwwdie.htm Daniel H. Caldwell Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 10:47:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96063 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 17:47:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 17:47:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 17:47:38 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:46:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:46:34 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:46:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 229 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.41 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 128.241.111.85 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: C.W. Leadbeater's and Annie Besant's Theosophical Teachings X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=GSP2G4SPorZH_ekAhc1zwIPWCCLyfHYF_35moo6utMcOkhqidh9gvitE X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell C.W. Leadbeater's and Annie Besant's Theosophical Teachings: Comments by James A. Santucci, Jerry Hejka-Ekins and Alvin Boyd Kuhn See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/thomas/index.htm#online Daniel H. Caldwell http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 10:49:01 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72418 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 17:49:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 17:49:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.36) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 17:49:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:48:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.76] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:48:59 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:48:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 147 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.36 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 128.241.111.85 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: When We Die by Geoffrey A. Farthing X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=AvLXg3zNj69bfExBGzD6X8iCjSZh_3KmoNBV219iZgd8rInU4t6xmCcz X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell When We Die by Geoffrey A. Farthing See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/farthingwwd.htm Daniel H. Caldwell Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 10:50:17 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54964 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 17:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 17:50:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.39) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 17:50:17 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:50:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.82] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:50:16 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:50:15 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 165 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.39 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 128.241.111.85 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Once Awakened from Their Post-mortem Torpor . . . . X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=XlossncKwnMqqi3m_vMBihwCMgSLqpvchAAhAelgJ8iC7Z1KN6iZ4BeN X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Once Awakened from Their Post-mortem Torpor . . . . See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/mon/revivingf.htm Daniel H. Caldwell Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 10:55:50 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34028 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 17:55:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 17:55:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.55) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 17:55:49 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n26.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:54:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.84] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 17:54:40 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:54:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 207 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.55 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 128.241.111.85 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Table Showing After Death States & Processes as given by Master Koot Hoomi X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=JxZUrNeCyqj1meKaqbLW_D911UifeKR619gQISYrHbZNK81iB5Z3WdGM X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Table Showing After Death States & Processes as given by Master Koot Hoomi in THE MAHATMA LETTERS See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/diagram2.htm Daniel H. Caldwell Blavatsky Study Center http://hpb.cc From ringding@online.de Sun Jul 10 11:00:19 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1096 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 18:00:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 18:00:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.177) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 18:00:17 -0000 Received: from p54BF8D10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.141.16] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKwh2-1Drg6C2x5x-0002AO; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:00:16 +0200 Message-ID: <006301c58579$54044470$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:00:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.177 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World Leon Maurer's Testimony about the Holocaust Ignored by Frank Reitemeyer X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=RFBVDP29si0Og-3xzXD8VUQ2vhSy_NwpzhKz_HBAvm1BAwgJq0RtKPn9qQ X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Daniel, you are sometimes very quick in your judgement to others. Why do you know what I ignore on this list and what not? Have you talked with me about that? Are you a clairvoyant? The simple truth is that I am some 25,000 theos-talk emails back. I cannot read all because of lack of time. To Leon's "testimony" in Theosophy World I would like to write a reply as time permits. For that reason I have asked the editor about that, but have not got an answer as yet. It is interesting that Leon had many photos from gas chambers etc. The Russians closed Auschwitz for one year and build that chambers in 1946-47. In 1945 when the International Red Cross made an investigation about the gas chamber rumours they were not yet there. But when the gas chambers of the Russians were "ready" in 1947 (they never worked in the technical sense, with wood doors, leaky windows etc.) American and Russian officials were no Allies anymore and cold war was beginning, so Leon would have had no opportunity to drive to Auschwitz and make the photos. >From where did he get the photos? One answer could be the Nuremburg show trial were bulks of faked documents and photos were produced by Russian and American intelligence. Photos and films with bulks of dead corpes allegedly from concentration camps turned out as photos and films from Dresden etc., showing German victims. When one of the innocent German defendants made such an objection he was shouted down by the show judges, why he can speak out such a terrible lie. He answered: Because the doctor on the film evaluating the corpses is me - and I was evaluating in Dresden. I am no historian and forgot the name of this person, but this incident is known to every historian and searchable. Another case are the photos with thousands of wedding rings, which were showed as proof of systematic mass murder of the Germans. In truth it were the rings of the roasted Dresden women and children. Dresden officials were collecting these rings to figure out the numbers of burned victims of which the most were burnt so much that no other identification was possible. These collected rings were driven to the Deutsche Bank safe in Frankfurt for safe keeping. From the they were stolen by the US Army, which presented them in the Nuremberg show trial against the Germans. The "gas chamber" machinations in Dachau were built by the US Army, but never finished, because of the rising cold war. They installed new shower head, claiming that the prisoners were gassed with this showers. There are enough eyewitness reports of these machinations, which were taken down and the gas chamber accusations in Dachau were silenced when US policy changed. The same happened in 1990 when the iron curtain felt and researchers were able to drive to Auschwitz and make chemical investigations. Even if Leon's lost photos have showed real corpes from concentration camps (which of course happened as in every camp; also in the American camps Germans and Japenese died), these lost photos would be no proof that there existed a German plan, a logistic and an administration and orders to systematic kill the Jewish people. If Leon is convinced that the photos he once had were true he and every other lover of the truth should demand research for the corpses. Where are the 6 million corpses? Chemical analysis is far progressed today and experts say that even when the ashes of thousands, hundred thousands or millions were strewed into the nearby river it would be possibly even after 60 years to find physical evidence of it. It is a pity that Leon has this photos not anymore. It would be a real sensation today, because sixty years of pro research have brought not a single gas chamber photo to light. The day he or any other Holocaustists presents me a true gas chamber photo, I'll join their ranks and will be a serious follower of that religion. But so long such an evidence is lacking I'll remain a sceptical theosophist, believing only that what logic, knowledge and wisdom convince me of. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 6:53 PM Subject: Theos-World Leon Maurer's Testimony about the Holocaust Ignored by Frank Reitemeyer Leon Maurer's Testimony about the Holocaust Ignored by Frank Reitemeyer See Leon's testimony at: http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200311/tt00131.html Daniel http://hpb.cc From samblo@cs.com Sun Jul 10 11:19:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4315 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 18:19:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 18:19:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m23.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.4) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 18:19:46 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r1.7.) id r.146.48291bf8 (48576) for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <146.48291bf8.3002bfd8@cs.com> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:15:52 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.4 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World At the Solemn Moment of Death: Dying & Soon After X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, Thanks for your continued posts and work, I am sure all appreciate your efforts and valuable website archives. The topic of death and dying is ancient of days is it not? Wll, this morning I was checking a printout of a work of Padmasambhava whom H.P.B. thought so highly of in her commentary and musing on what I think of as a synchronicity betwwen her and Mandarava, Padmasambhava's second consort and thought I should look for an opportunity to post to Daniel and others where they can read Padmasambhava's "Self Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness" as it seems to me to align to H.P.B.s comments in her S.D. and also has applicable teaching in terms of death, Bardo states,etc. Self Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness By Padmasambhava http://www.buddhistinformation.com/tibetan/self_liberation_through_seeing_w.ht m (if list members wish to print this from the website it is a 14 page printout) John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From forums@sova.us Sun Jul 10 11:21:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: forums@sova.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43253 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 18:21:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 18:21:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO relay02.infobox.ru) (195.208.235.29) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 18:21:22 -0000 Received: from ppp85-140-125-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru (ppp85-140-125-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru [85.140.125.9]) by relay02.infobox.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id C584DF00DEC8 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:21:11 +0400 (MSD) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:20:47 +0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <01040856.20050710222047@sova.us> To: Frank Reitemeyer In-Reply-To: <006301c58579$54044470$152ca8c0@thebeast> References: <006301c58579$54044470$152ca8c0@thebeast> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 195.208.235.29 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Vladimir Reply-To: Vladimir Subject: Re[2]: Theos-World Leon Maurer's Testimony about the Holocaust Ignored by Frank Reitemeyer X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=209526132; y=cwoHvkVPSY23oY_k-IEs3QolrYZNj3HHXXRgLOY5hU3idac X-Yahoo-Profile: sova7777 Sunday, July 10, 2005, 10:00:55 PM, Frank wrote: > Even if Leon's lost photos have showed real corpes from concentration camps > (which of course happened as in every camp; also in the American camps > Germans and Japenese died), these lost photos would be no proof that there > existed a German plan, a logistic and an administration and orders to > systematic kill the Jewish people. Well, some argue that logistics and administration was backed up by technology made in the USA. See http://gnn.tv/videos/10/IBM_and_the_Holocaust Actually, it's not specifically about Jews, it's about IBM's machines used for running the Nazi camp industry in general. From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 11:30:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91550 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 18:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 18:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.16) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 18:30:21 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n11.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 18:30:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.78] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 18:30:21 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:30:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 552 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.16 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Frank R: ". . .HPB is regarded by some people as a forerunner of Hitler...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=8zHQGjmAy0ZokInDrMjlENugXr0-9EvMyIVvs7Lj-ZaHDtuZ81CimjUy X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Frank, You wrote once on Theos-Talk: ". . . HPB is regarded by some people as a forerunner of Hitler. . . . " Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/15019 By some??? It would be interesting to know who you are referring to. Do you belong to that group, too? In other words, do you think HPB was a forerunner of Hitler? I would love to know what similarities exist between HPB and Hitler to conclude that she was such a forerunner. What, pray tell, is this based on?? So was Hitler also trained by the Masters? Daniel From ringding@online.de Sun Jul 10 12:11:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6362 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 19:11:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 19:11:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.177) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 19:11:39 -0000 Received: from p54BF8D10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.141.16] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML21M-1DrhDF45kE-0001sH; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:11:37 +0200 Message-ID: <008a01c58583$48ac7980$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:12:10 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.177 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World Frank R: ". . .HPB is regarded by some people as a forerunner of Hitler...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=CKXu89NThgcSkU3S7znDLMwSYtMMSBdTBTSiNLsyC5JxfR4bbVZQ35RPgQ X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Daniel, me thought I already had answered your questions. Despite the fact that you obviously constantly ask me questions but you in turn do not answer any of my questions I am glad to answer you that there are several authors who claim that HPB was Hitler's forerunner. F.e. Miss Jutta Ditfurth in her several books, "Blavatskys Kinder" (Blavatsky's Children) being one of them. I have probably 40 or 50 books on my shelf with this connection and this are by no means all. In one of the last issues of national wide P.M. magazine Catholic and UFO-author Michael Hesemann links Hitler's alleged "gas chamber's" with "Madame Blavatsky", the gnostics and Lanz von Liebenfels, giving the reader the impression that without HPB and her "pseudo-esoteric" the gas chamber would never have appeared. The aarticle is to be found under: http://194.12.216.68/de/wissensnews/wn_id969.htm I hop that you kind enough to answer my questions in turn, too. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 8:30 PM Subject: Theos-World Frank R: ". . .HPB is regarded by some people as a forerunner of Hitler...." Frank, You wrote once on Theos-Talk: ". . . HPB is regarded by some people as a forerunner of Hitler. . . . " Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/15019 By some??? It would be interesting to know who you are referring to. Do you belong to that group, too? In other words, do you think HPB was a forerunner of Hitler? I would love to know what similarities exist between HPB and Hitler to conclude that she was such a forerunner. What, pray tell, is this based on?? So was Hitler also trained by the Masters? Daniel Yahoo! Groups Links From ringding@online.de Sun Jul 10 12:55:25 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29499 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 19:55:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 19:55:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.187) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 19:55:24 -0000 Received: from p54BF8D10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.141.16] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKwpI-1DrhtW0NTc-0003EF; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:55:18 +0200 Message-ID: <009401c58589$65c54cd0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: <006301c58579$54044470$152ca8c0@thebeast> <01040856.20050710222047@sova.us> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:55:56 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.187 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:12:4 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: IBM X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=tWgVzyKaHILi8OWYb-eYcDc_6OIMXZbBwip3gWTgST_cPSupaM9DzBavtw X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer >Well, some argue that logistics and administration was backed up by technology made in the USA. Vladimir, why made in USA? You would like to consider what Jack Shulman says about the invention of the transistor: http://www.swa-home.de/schulman.htm For some people it is quite clear that this advanced technology did not come from outer space, but rather from the Earth, from Germany. The whole exoteric UFO poppycock is a cover up. The Roswell UFO came not from space, but from Germany. In the 1930'ies US intelligence classified the advanced German technology (computers, video tape, visual telephone, antigravitation, jet propulsion, new materials etc. etc.) as "alien technology". The term alien has more than one meaning. One meaning is: Extraterrestials from outer space. That is how it is regarded since years - or rather how they force us to regard it. The other meaning of the term is "foreign". "Alien technology" meant nothing else that enemy, "German technology". It is interesting to note that although the USA have stolen around 500,000 unique advanced technology patents of all fields, they were (until today) not able to replicate it. When it turned out in the mid-1960'ies that they are not able to regain that level it was decided to bluff the ignorant masses with the Apollo moon theater. >From a theosophical point of view it would make much sense as HPB writes in her SD that advanced technology like Keely's motor will only come when used altruistic (as the Germans did). The US policy was, as ex chancellor Helmut Schmidt explained not long ago in German TV, imperialistic, aggressive and intolerant from the beginning. So long as if the US policy has as its motto: every nation which lives not the way we live, will be destroyed, this advanced technology will be withheld. There is reason to believe that the White Lodge is interesting in it as we know from the Count of St. Germain that he several times visited King Frederick of Prussia at his tea house in the garden of his castle in Potdam to help him to create the German railway system etc. Frank From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Jul 10 13:09:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92613 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 20:09:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 20:09:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.64) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 20:09:29 -0000 Received: from [141.153.238.175] (helo=sprynet.com) by smtpauth04.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Dri7F-0004Pk-6n for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:09:29 -0400 Message-ID: <42D18081.3070506@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:09:37 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <004f01c58572$2b2ecae0$152ca8c0@thebeast> In-Reply-To: <004f01c58572$2b2ecae0$152ca8c0@thebeast> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba05e6e537bcd0d3a0bd7b28fedfb5156880a966c17e7b0748350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.64 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:7:0 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial: Overviews X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370; y=fv4Jo81d6XZlr0hfUgdKGt4d542xbrkaTpPbNWx4kUNQciE X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > But what is the theosophical point of view? Well, to start out with, "To form a nucleus of the universal brotherhood of humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste, or color." Bart Lidofsky From ringding@online.de Sun Jul 10 13:21:07 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54620 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 20:21:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 20:21:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.188) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 20:21:06 -0000 Received: from p54BF8D10.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.141.16] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKxQS-1DriIT1Ycc-0003JG; Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:21:05 +0200 Message-ID: <00be01c5858d$007cf7c0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: References: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:20:19 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.188 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Re: Theos-World Frank R: ". . .HPB is regarded by some people as a forerunner of Hitler...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=sEP2dA4Md0N173yHQbfMOZkqXLd3J8QIGtXz8RwBnRknmq189iJMwo6vEA X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Daniel, you will also note that many Jews during the 1920'ies and 1930'ies regarded big H as a saint and divine messenger. I have seen such books and articles from Jewish authorities and rabbis. One source (of many more which exists) is this: "IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER'S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH, SENT TO CHASTEN THE JEWS BECAUSE OF THE BITTER APOSTASY OF ZIONISM AGAINST THE BELIEF IN THE EVENTUAL MESSIANIC REDEMPTION. " http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/gedalyaliebermann.cfm Does that help you? Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 8:30 PM Subject: Theos-World Frank R: ". . .HPB is regarded by some people as a forerunner of Hitler...." Frank, You wrote once on Theos-Talk: ". . . HPB is regarded by some people as a forerunner of Hitler. . . . " Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/15019 By some??? It would be interesting to know who you are referring to. Do you belong to that group, too? In other words, do you think HPB was a forerunner of Hitler? I would love to know what similarities exist between HPB and Hitler to conclude that she was such a forerunner. What, pray tell, is this based on?? So was Hitler also trained by the Masters? Daniel Yahoo! Groups Links From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 14:47:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14027 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 21:47:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 21:47:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.24) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 21:47:39 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 21:47:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.87] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 21:47:30 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:47:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00be01c5858d$007cf7c0$152ca8c0@thebeast> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1518 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.24 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Re: Frank R: ". . .HPB is regarded by some people as a forerunner of Hitler...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=xXyEiHHHQ4qRHpse1Fa8O_88ohkES7fBovzTqyN0LcNC4pbxYpZnz3wq X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Frank, You wrote: "Daniel, you will also note that many Jews during the 1920'ies and 1930'ies regarded big H as a saint and divine messenger. I have seen such books and articles from Jewish authorities and rabbis." "One source (of many more which exists) is this: 'IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER'S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH, SENT TO CHASTEN THE JEWS BECAUSE OF THE BITTER APOSTASY OF ZIONISM AGAINST THE BELIEF IN THE EVENTUAL MESSIANIC REDEMPTION.' " Thanks for the quote above but readers should also notice that in the same quote Hitler is called not only "A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH" but also the "Angel of Death" and "the mad-dog." Saint = mad-dog???? And notice also what is written in the same source: "We lost more than six million of our brothers, sisters, sons and daughters in a very horrible manner. This, more than six million holy people had to experience as punishment for the Zionist stupidity. The Holocaust, he wept, was a direct result of Zionism, a punishment from G-d." Now we can understand why Hitler was called the "Angel of Death" by this writer!! :) So was HPB a "mad-dog" too? But the important question in my posting was: Frank, do YOU consider HPB a "forerunner" of Hitler and if so, what is your reasoning behind this statement? Also: Was Hitler trained by the Masters? I will tell you in advance that I certainly do NOT consider HPB a forerunner of Hitler...... Daniel From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 15:04:05 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44021 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 22:04:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 22:04:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n32.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.61) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 22:04:05 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n32.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 22:03:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.92] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 22:03:37 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:03:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 781 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.61 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Leon Maurer on HItler in Theosophy World #108, June 1, 2005 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=KxYHRibZIVGZimsQptIE7KxUJBHydlR1vQoVlRqBKsUUeBvTY7EN_5uE X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Leon wrote: "It is obvious from the writing, speech, and actions of Hitler that he was a willing student of one or more black-magician Masters of such practices. Therefore, either he had to be an initiated member of some Secret Society or a disciple of a member who gave him direct training." "Because such occult practices are based on secret teachings known to few, there would be no written record of such study or membership. Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will know all this without recourse to second hand evidence." "In another sense, Hitler could have been, if not an initiated occultist himself, a mind controlled puppet of a behind the scenes black magician who operated him." Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-world/message/84 Daniel From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 15:10:41 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4890 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 22:10:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 22:10:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.36) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 22:10:40 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 22:09:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 22:09:55 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:09:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 434 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.36 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Frank Reitemeyer Writes to Eldon Tucker about Leon Maurer's Article X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=WqCOPc4wI2cbITqZHgVZ6ntQTPW8VzjX59fwnOxNKlqHyCqSBfltOS7j X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Frank, you wrote: "To Leon's 'testimony' in Theosophy World I would like to write a reply as time permits. For that reason I have asked the editor about that, but have not got an answer as yet." Well, you can certainly post your reply on this Theos-Talk forum to begin with and I'm sure Eldon will allow you in Theosophy World to give the other side of the story which you believe Leon has not given to his readers. Daniel From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Jul 10 15:23:25 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99320 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 22:23:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 22:23:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 22:23:25 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 22:22:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.87] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jul 2005 22:22:48 -0000 Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:22:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 808 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.42 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Re: The Holocaust and Holocaust Denial: Overviews X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=EjR7Z3SnbQCZK6aGuN9arC6AArgKtTKTfPfNbVF33XuCYuGGVw9LSGqK X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Frank, You comment: "Thanks Daniel, for the links of the pro holo party. Obviously, on Wikipedia one can find all their dogmas collected. But what is the theosophical point of view?" "What is your point of view, Daniel?" Well, I would love to believe that the Holocaust did NOT happen but unfortunately the evidence I have seen proves that this HORROR actually occurred. I have read and studied a great deal of the material on Holocaust Denial and I am not impressed with the quality of the research or thinking of these "deniers." Their "thinking" and method of "research" on these matters appears to me very similar to some of those writers who hold "negative" views about HPB and the Masters conjuring up "behind the scenes conspiracies" between Madame Blavatsky and her "accomplices." Daniel From th.paijmans@wxs.nl Sun Jul 10 15:27:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: th.paijmans@wxs.nl X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12832 invoked from network); 10 Jul 2005 22:27:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jul 2005 22:27:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp19.wxs.nl) (195.121.6.15) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2005 22:27:49 -0000 Received: from wxs.nl (ip54553af8.speed.planet.nl [84.85.58.248]) by smtp19.wxs.nl (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IJF00835NPZDI@smtp19.wxs.nl> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:27:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:33:03 +0200 In-reply-to: To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <42D1A21F.7080205@wxs.nl> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) References: X-Originating-IP: 195.121.6.15 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Theo Paijmans Subject: HItler and the occult - not a new discussion X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52269294; y=VaGiCSA9xKVFecicj_XdgY9INTdntkwmcmfvRCJTeJeOuUq8as8D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Enough has been written about any perceived occult affiliations of Hitler and occultism, going back in fact, to the 1930's. In order to demonstrate that this is not a new discussion, let me post a part of an article that appeared in 1944 in many American newspapers: The source is: Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune, 1944-10-05 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From forums@sova.us Sun Jul 10 21:25:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: forums@sova.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97709 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2005 04:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Jul 2005 04:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO relay02.infobox.ru) (195.208.235.29) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2005 04:25:09 -0000 Received: from ppp85-140-125-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru (ppp85-140-125-9.pppoe.mtu-net.ru [85.140.125.9]) by relay02.infobox.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82414F01323F for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:25:01 +0400 (MSD) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:25:00 +0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <315136393.20050711082500@sova.us> To: Frank Reitemeyer In-Reply-To: <009401c58589$65c54cd0$152ca8c0@thebeast> References: <006301c58579$54044470$152ca8c0@thebeast> <01040856.20050710222047@sova.us> <009401c58589$65c54cd0$152ca8c0@thebeast> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 195.208.235.29 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Vladimir Reply-To: Vladimir Subject: Re: Theos-World IBM X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=209526132; y=FcoECmT-J--T1EuxqL3SlOdc2V_yMAnXasURWMYjel0hXVE X-Yahoo-Profile: sova7777 Sunday, July 10, 2005, 11:55:56 PM, Frank wrote: > Vladimir, why made in USA? You just watch the clip and see for yourself. It may have been stolen previously (I don't know) but then it was implemented by IBM and sold to Nazis. From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 01:05:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14497 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2005 08:05:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Jul 2005 08:05:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.57) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2005 08:05:12 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n28.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Jul 2005 08:05:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Jul 2005 08:05:12 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:05:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <004f01c58572$2b2ecae0$152ca8c0@thebeast> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2467 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.57 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Theos-World The Holocaust X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=0QQbgLEg-Ajm3_b4F0RqrUqVneMnRUbrPgIRh2KYAtOxyNjr X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz >> - In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > In one of your links "extermination camps" the concentration camp > Auschwitz is labeled as extermination camp, following 60 years of > communistic propaganda. It is not likely that it's all was invented by communists. Really, when living in USSR i've never heard the word "holocaust". The tragedy of the jews was never emphasized, for there was some antisemitism subtly encouraged by the government. Yet the numbers were recognized. It is true that not all the camps were extermination camps; there were other working camps not for jews. Here in Russia there are many war vets and camp prisoners and as a rule they confirm what official sources say. There's is another consideration. The regime in USSR wasn't very good, as you know, and it was expected that German army would be welcomed by a population, for any other rule seemed be better. In some cases in the first time it was so, but people very soon realized that there is a type of rule even worse than our own. The Germans should be extremely cruel to drive our population to such decision. > Daniel, do you believe that during WW I 6 million Jews were killed by Germans? I hear this the first time. Yet I was surprized to know recently that the Germans in WW I were almost so cruel as in WW II. > Do you also believe that during WW II another 6 million Jews were killed by Germans? Most probably. There were other nations killed for their nationality, the Gipsies, for example. There is no Gipsy lobby and their story is less known. It's true that the jews make good business on holocaust, but it doesn't cancel the fact itself. > of the heavenly Israel down to Earth was a compensation for the > Zionists? Maybe it was just a part of political plan. USSR was one of the first countries which officially admitted Israel as a state. There were strong socialist tendencies among the jews, so Stalin hoped that Israel shall be new important outpost of communism, but his plans failed. > "The State of "Israel" does not represent the voice of Judaism Yes, it's true, it's a secular and probably even a fascist project. > What is the theosophical position to the physical state of Israel? > Does Theosophy support a state of Israel is therefore to be regarded I think that theosophy regards all that as materialistic activity having no common with true spirituality, the zionists and stisemites alike. From kay_ziatz@... Mon Jul 11 01:14:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51674 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2005 08:14:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Jul 2005 08:14:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2005 08:14:41 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Jul 2005 08:14:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.77] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Jul 2005 08:14:34 -0000 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:14:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <006a01c584ad$bc0797b0$152ca8c0@thebeast> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1043 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.50 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Hypotheses OTHER THAN Reincarnation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=gxOU29xT29AW_joqXEJgGhQyh5FlvlXt7etUGlSe0nOhveAx X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz >> - In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > What He wrote about was the spiritual and manasic content, not the > The outer form is part of the execution of the imagine and this > is left over to Their chelas. Then how it differs from a mediumship? >> In this case we are left with two theories >> which are quite speculative because there are almost no any >> evidences for them. > The more, there are almost no evidences against reincarnation, don't? Then, without positive facts, reincarnation remains to be a speculative hypothesis, though plausible. It has to compete with many other speculative theories. So I prefer the theories which not only have no evidences against but have some strong evidences for. > Besides the Christian assumption that God created only one life. > Elsewehre in the NT there is the term "one life" and upon this the The sayings from the Bible cannot be regarded as the evidences for or agaisnt. But if the Bible says something I personally would rather believe the contrary. From ringding@online.de Mon Jul 11 04:08:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26816 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2005 11:08:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Jul 2005 11:08:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO moutng.kundenserver.de) (212.227.126.177) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2005 11:08:05 -0000 Received: from p54BF9AA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.191.154.169] (helo=thebeast) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML25U-1Drw8q08hO-0008KJ; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:08:04 +0200 Message-ID: <002b01c58608$ea0f9fc0$152ca8c0@thebeast> To: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:08:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de login:d066391b47e67c594ae06bf3d758d7eb X-Originating-IP: 212.227.126.177 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Subject: Explosions in London X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=224426186; y=6tJr0BThbld9qATXX0rtW1_sMsWVAYSZRT5WGFWxwS-t81EpF8bjND4aKA X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Published newspaper article re-edited in the aftermath, read here: http://www.prisonplanet.com/Pages/Jul05/070705explosions_London.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk Mon Jul 11 15:03:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94141 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2005 22:03:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Jul 2005 22:03:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.213.8) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2005 22:03:11 -0000 Received: from your904q9zk0ar ([82.41.81.10]) by smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:03:44 +0100 Message-ID: <004001c58664$49d20780$0a512952@your904q9zk0ar> To: References: <002b01c58608$ea0f9fc0$152ca8c0@thebeast> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:02:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Return-Path: ibse03888@blueyonder.co.uk X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jul 2005 22:03:44.0213 (UTC) FILETIME=[678DE050:01C58664] X-Originating-IP: 195.188.213.8 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Iain" Subject: Re: Theos-World Explosions in London X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=182405197 DEar Frank,Thank you for your entry , however I see severe flaws in the article. London has been on alert for at least five years . HM Government even issued a booklet to every household in the UK on how to deal with an emergency/terror attack/ natural disaster. It is not helpful for wild and exagerated speculation. Conspiricy theories are like statistics they can be manipulated to whatever outcome that is desired. In the past five years there have been 8 attempted terrorist attacks aimed at London. It was only a matter of time when one was going to get lucky.It was a "SOFT TARGET"when civilians going about their normal buisness, The amount of explosive used was small in comparison to some of the others that have completely destroyed large buildings with flying glass and debris the casualty list would have been massive. The Police will be painstaking in their enquiries, it is better to proceed slowly and get the right information required rather than dogmatically denouncing "A" or "B" lets wait for the results and not jump on any bandwagons. It does not help anyone.hose responsible will be found, their actions will now act on them. cheers Iain ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 12:08 PM Subject: Theos-World Explosions in London > Published newspaper article re-edited in the aftermath, read here: > > http://www.prisonplanet.com/Pages/Jul05/070705explosions_London.html > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 18:15:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40564 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 01:15:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2005 01:15:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.24) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 01:15:37 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2005 01:15:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.72] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2005 01:15:36 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:15:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 678 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.24 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: "Everything is a conspiracy!": Conspiracy Theory X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=vr5n2j__2zZCWVq7wYjXFlDrDTsH7FwnIwqs8J8Axvgzl4YV1YWH68E9 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell See the following articles for insight into the type of "reasoning" and "thinking" employed by those who embrace various conspiracy theories: Conspiracy theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory List of alleged conspiracy theories http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories Conspiracy theories (a collection) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories_%28a_collection%29 Apollo moon landing hoax accusations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_moon_landing_hoax_accusations 9/11 conspiracy theories http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories Holocaust denial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 18:25:43 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50210 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 01:25:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2005 01:25:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 01:25:42 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2005 01:25:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.72] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2005 01:25:42 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:25:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1138 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.37 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: A "conspiracy theory" sort of thinking about Leadbeater's birthdate X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=xDQxjwZylJjsn4Ll-M6L19PKUAaoHMN2wUcIsGvkCXIXpfsH7uHS_txl X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell A number of Leadbeater students, in effect, adopt a "conspiracy theory" sort of thinking, to cast doubt on the following historical records/evidence showing that Leadbeater was born in 1854 instead of 1847 as he contended. (1) British marriage records indicate that Leadbeater's parents were married on May 26, 1853. (2) Leadbeater's own birth record indicates that he was born on February 16, 1854. [NOTE: Connecting the facts presented in (1) and (2), one can see that Leadbeater was born about 9 months after his parents were married. Not surprising in light of known facts about human reproduction.] (3) Leadbeater's mother gave his age [confirming the 1854 birthdate] when registering her husband's death. (4) In the Anglican diocesan records, Leadbeater gave his birth date [1854] on his application for ordination in the Church of England (5) In the census return submitted by Leadbeater in 1881, he stated as Head of the Household that his age was 27 (i.e. born in 1854). These followers contend that one cannot take the records at face value, that there is something wrong with these records..... Daniel http://hpb.cc From thaw_win2000@yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 20:00:59 2005 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 79737 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 03:00:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2005 03:00:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 03:00:59 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2005 02:59:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.91] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2005 02:59:51 -0000 X-Sender: thaw_win2000@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96701 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 02:42:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2005 02:42:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web80501.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.79.71) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 02:42:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 2201 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Jul 2005 02:42:35 -0000 Message-ID: <20050712024235.2199.qmail@web80501.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.215.24.126] by web80501.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:42:35 PDT Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:42:35 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 66.218.79.71 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: thaw win Subject: Re: Theos-World A "conspiracy theory" sort of thinking about Leadbeater's birthdate X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=230208829; y=5V4Fkh93_jStc8BDauWX_1mzdxWKVgErTHHoK84iDH-GHg1fJLMC X-Yahoo-Profile: thaw_win2000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 12 Jul 2005 02:59:50 -0000 hi execuse me sir i am the new one in theosophy so,i have to know a lot of things and i need to learn verythin. can u do me afvour i don't understand what's is that mean " leadbeater " can u explan to me.please. "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: A number of Leadbeater students, in effect, adopt a "conspiracy theory" sort of thinking, to cast doubt on the following historical records/evidence showing that Leadbeater was born in 1854 instead of 1847 as he contended. (1) British marriage records indicate that Leadbeater's parents were married on May 26, 1853. (2) Leadbeater's own birth record indicates that he was born on February 16, 1854. [NOTE: Connecting the facts presented in (1) and (2), one can see that Leadbeater was born about 9 months after his parents were married. Not surprising in light of known facts about human reproduction.] (3) Leadbeater's mother gave his age [confirming the 1854 birthdate] when registering her husband's death. (4) In the Anglican diocesan records, Leadbeater gave his birth date [1854] on his application for ordination in the Church of England (5) In the census return submitted by Leadbeater in 1881, he stated as Head of the Household that his age was 27 (i.e. born in 1854). These followers contend that one cannot take the records at face value, that there is something wrong with these records..... Daniel http://hpb.cc Yahoo! Groups Links --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 20:06:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61134 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 03:06:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2005 03:06:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.53) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 03:06:13 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n24.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2005 03:06:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.75] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2005 03:06:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:06:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2306 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.53 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Paul Johnson's Conspiracy Theory on H.P. Blavatsky & the Mahatmas X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=OtBMfxATSGqjzILnYpzsSoccNTirIFnwFyyrl2e-FdkKZWbkgC1hyxFO X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Paul Johnson's Conspiracy Theory on H.P. Blavatsky & the Mahatmas I quote three extracts from Dr. Joscelyn Godwin's Foreword=20 to Paul Johnson's "The Masters Revealed." These extracts outline=20 succinctly Johnson's main argument in his "conspiracy theory": "The principal Masters in question were Koot Hoomi and Morya,=20 supposedly residents of Shigatse in Tibet...." (p. xv)=20 "The theme of this book is that HPB's Masters were not the Himalayan=20 sages whom she invented to distract her co-workers...." (p. xviii)=20 "Mr. Johnson's suggestion---and he makes it clear that it is no more=20 than that---is that the Mahatmas Morya and Koot Hoomi are fictitious=20 Tibetan personae that conceal well-documented historical figures:=20 Ranbir Singh and Thakar Singh." (p. xviii)=20 Johnson in his own Introduction to "The Masters Revealed" summarizes=20 this hypothesis as follows: "Thakar Singh Sandhanwalia, founding president of the Amritsar Singh=20 Sabha, corresponds in intriguing ways to clues about Koot Hoomi's=20 identity in the writings of Olcott and HPB....=20 "Maharaja Ranbir Singh of Kashmir has many correspondences to Morya=20 as described by HPB....=20 "Although much of HPB's portrayal of Morya and Koot Hoomi was=20 designed to mislead in order to protect their privacy, enough=20 accurate information was included to make a persuasive case for=20 their identities as these historical figures...." (pp. 5-6.) Johnson in his "conspiracy theory" alleges that HPB and others put=20 out all sorts of DISINFORMATION to mislead the public so that they=20 would not suspect what was REALLY going on behind the scenes. For critiques of Johnson's arguments, see: =95 The Theosophical Mahatmas: A Critique of Paul Johnson's New Myth http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/johnson.htm =95 K. Paul Johnson's House of Cards?: A Critical Examination of=20 Johnson's Thesis on the Theosophical Masters Morya and Koot Hoomi http://blavatskyarchives.com/johnson.htm =95 A Closer Look at Some of K. Paul Johnson's Arguments Concerning=20 H.S. Olcott's Testimony about the Masters http://blavatskyarchives.com/johnsonparanormal3.htm It would be interesting to know why Frank Reitmeyer hasn't adopted=20 Johnson's "conspiracy theory" since Frank apparently accepts so many=20 other conspiracy theories. Daniel http://hpb.cc From gregory@zeta.org.au Mon Jul 11 20:52:55 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: gregory@zeta.org.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33663 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 03:52:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2005 03:52:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout2.pacific.net.au) (61.8.0.115) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 03:52:54 -0000 Received: from mailproxy2.pacific.net.au (mailproxy2.pacific.net.au [61.8.0.87]) by mailout2.pacific.net.au (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3) with ESMTP id j6C3qrZw016661 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:52:53 +1000 Received: from mailproxy2.pacific.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailproxy2.pacific.net.au (8.13.4/8.13.4/Debian-3) with ESMTP id j6C3qrIQ031560 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:52:53 +1000 Received: (from www-data@localhost) by mailproxy2.pacific.net.au (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id j6C3qrQ8031559 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:52:53 +1000 X-Authentication-Warning: mailproxy2.pacific.net.au: www-data set sender to gregory@zeta.org.au using -f Received: from ppp31BC.dsl.pacific.net.au (ppp31BC.dsl.pacific.net.au [202.7.67.188]) by wm2.pacific.net.au (Horde MIME library) with HTTP for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:52:53 +1000 Message-ID: <20050712135253.0un243h71uw4c80k@wm2.pacific.net.au> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:52:53 +1000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0.3) X-Originating-IP: 61.8.0.115 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 2:12:4 From: gregory@zeta.org.au Subject: Conspiracy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=796991 I received a considerable number of wonderful letters "explaining" conspiracies relating to Leadbeater when my biography of him was first published. The disciples offered "explanations" - there was a conspiracy by "The Blacks" to undermine Leadbeater's reputation and they had tampered with the records; Leadbeater wanted to prevent (why?) a biography being written and had occultly changed the records (yes, I know....but the conspiracy mindset doesn't necessarily include rationality); that I was a Jesuit paid by the Vatican to tell lies about Leadbeater (I still waiting for the cheque)...and, of course, the "multiple Leadbeaters" theory. Those hostile to Leadbeater also offered some bizarre conspiracy theories. My favourite (from the USA) was that Leadbeater was a Jesuit and the "missing seven years" (1847-1854) represented the seven years training Jesuits undertake! The more I tried to explain that the seven years were not "missing" the more it was insisted that they were! Others assured me that Leadbeater was an agent of (if not one of) "The Blacks" sent by the "Dugpas" to destroy pure Theosophy. No doubt some members of the forum will be aware of the range of books arguing that Theosophy is part of the Jewish-Masonic-Illuminati, etc, etc, conspiracy. Three of the most entertaining are Lady Queensborough's "Occult Theocracy", 'Inquire Within's' "Trail of the Serpent" and Nesta Webster's "Secret Societies and Subversive Movement". From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Jul 11 21:31:19 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13566 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 04:31:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2005 04:31:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.54) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 04:31:18 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2005 04:31:14 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.71] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2005 04:31:14 -0000 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:31:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 185 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.54 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Occult Theocracy by Lady Queenborough X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=19Nr8ZK5z5GvNbAqcfEovhyS8Lcm3hePPLVPGxSU2_3CYkHV5OmzE7w_ X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell See the link below for some interesting excerpts from "Occult Theocracy" by Lady Queenborough: http://maybelogic.org/maybequarterly/01/0114OccultTheocracy.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From samblo@cs.com Tue Jul 12 00:51:09 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30616 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 07:51:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2005 07:51:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 07:51:05 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r3.4.) id r.f5.55290842 (26116) for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:50:58 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Originating-IP: 205.188.144.207 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Conspiracy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gregory, Well I have not read the books you cite but I sure agree with your viewpoint! Conspiracy abounds at every turn it seems these days for some, and they are all more than willing to lap up the crud and slime that others serve up to them so freely, all the while pontificating that they only wish to help the world out a bit and presenting themselves as towers of character and virtue personified while at the same time declaring utter blindness of their capacities to have any awareness whatever of how utterly false and base the things they give mouth and mind too are. They have no concept that they by this entirely malicsous action they cause their utter loss of credibility at once for the disgusting, revolting, venal and warped contents they choose to be party to in probagating as widely as possible. the only recognition they will receive is others with take their originations with a grain of salt and give zero credence to them even when they turn the worm to a more rational communication. BTW, just yesterday I ran into this malicious content about Theosophy and Madame Blavatsky, it was posted just a few days ago, and manages to place the burden on Blavatsky for what Leadbeater and Besant actually did. The Plagiarisms of Madame Blavatsky http://www.rense.com/general66/blav.htm Maybe you or one of the respected members could contact the website and straighten them out on the facts. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From forums@sova.us Tue Jul 12 09:19:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: forums@sova.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 3771 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 16:19:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2005 16:19:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO relay02.infobox.ru) (195.208.235.29) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 16:19:25 -0000 Received: from ppp85-140-125-155.pppoe.mtu-net.ru (ppp85-140-125-155.pppoe.mtu-net.ru [85.140.125.155]) by relay02.infobox.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABD1F025B7C for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:19:18 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:19:08 +0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1695952499.20050712201908@sova.us> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 195.208.235.29 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:7:0 From: Vladimir Reply-To: Vladimir Subject: The Ultimate Logic X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=209526132; y=b05vl2UuyA7YbmJKeLcz57aVa1W7ljneM_n-jkJw2_autus X-Yahoo-Profile: sova7777 Just download, watch and THINK. http://question911.com/linkout.php?filename=Painful%20Deceptions%20-%20Demolition%20Evidence.wmv or http://www.question911.com.nyud.net:8090/per82fw8987023f08dwf033e08f/Painful%20Deceptions%20-%20Demolition%20Evidence.wmv From samblo@cs.com Tue Jul 12 11:03:32 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87137 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 18:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2005 18:03:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m28.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.9) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 18:03:30 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r1.7.) id r.1c2.2c63fb14 (3940) for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1c2.2c63fb14.30055faa@cs.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:02:18 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.9 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Ultimate Logic X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It may not be real to people in many countries, especially if they never really have been free. We don't need to download and see here in America or Canada or any other "free" Nation. the WTC 911 was broadcast live on every Television Network and station uncensored in real time as it occurred. I taped it all and I mean "ALL". I keep the first 60 hours at easy access. This is the real thing, not altered by clever computer graphic artists who have a socialist propensity and a willingness to lie and deceive others as a matter of very day practice ans SOP. Sorry, not interested. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From forums@sova.us Tue Jul 12 11:29:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: forums@sova.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4093 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2005 18:29:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2005 18:29:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO relay02.infobox.ru) (195.208.235.29) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jul 2005 18:29:45 -0000 Received: from ppp85-140-125-155.pppoe.mtu-net.ru (ppp85-140-125-155.pppoe.mtu-net.ru [85.140.125.155]) by relay02.infobox.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11BBF00DEC6 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:29:42 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:27:47 +0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <6572625.20050712222747@sova.us> To: "samblo@cs.com" In-Reply-To: <1c2.2c63fb14.30055faa@cs.com> References: <1c2.2c63fb14.30055faa@cs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 195.208.235.29 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Vladimir Reply-To: Vladimir Subject: Re[2]: Theos-World The Ultimate Logic X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=209526132; y=njERZZnEaggmNExeLLnF0CRdTRNcBz45Tb-CMBODlfT_A7E X-Yahoo-Profile: sova7777 Great, that means you've already watched and probably watched thoroughly. One thing left is to think. Measure, calculate and conclude. Tuesday, July 12, 2005, 10:02:18 PM, samblo wrote: > It may not be real to people in many countries, especially if they never > really have been free. We don't need to download and see here in America or Canada > or any other "free" Nation. the WTC 911 was broadcast live on every > Television Network and station uncensored in real time as it occurred. I taped it all > and I mean "ALL". I keep the first 60 hours at easy access. This is the real > thing, not altered by clever computer graphic artists who have a socialist > propensity and a willingness to lie and deceive others as a matter of very day > practice ans SOP. Sorry, not interested. > John From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 00:20:18 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47696 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2005 07:20:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jul 2005 07:20:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.38) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 07:20:16 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 07:19:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.76] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 07:19:29 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:19:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20050712024235.2199.qmail@web80501.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1456 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.38 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Theos-World A "conspiracy theory" sort of thinking about Leadbeater's birthdate X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=6b_RdF4847ZYF6QIYG-9N7LjuEU_JEKu4uDWwlTuRTOkbG5o X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, thaw win wrote: Dear Thaw, tw> i don't understand what's is that mean " leadbeater " tw> can u explan to me.please. It's a proper name. He was an author of many books about theosophy. You may see some of them at http://www.theosophy.ca & http://www.anandgholap.net/ dc> A number of Leadbeater students, in effect, adopt dc> a "conspiracy theory" sort of thinking, to cast doubt dc> on the following historical records/evidence showing dc> that Leadbeater was born in 1854 instead of 1847 as he dc> contended. There can be one more explanation. It seems unlikely that Leadbeater intentially forged his birthdate for dubious advantage to look several years younger, for he could be easily exposed, so it was very risky. Moreover, everyone knows that HPB's life was short and she didn't look much young even when she was 40 and earned the title of "old lady" when she was 50, so those considerations couldn't play great part in theosophical circles of that time. Assuming the date of marriage of his parents to be true, we may suspect that Leadbeater was born out of marriage, and to provide him a better career (or legacy rights) the parents (or adopters, it they really weren't parents at all) bribed some officers to register him on the later date. After joining the Theosophical Society he had no reason to hide his earlier birthdate, for he presumed that theosophists are above such superstitions. From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 00:44:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44044 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2005 07:44:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jul 2005 07:44:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.32) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 07:44:21 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n15.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 07:43:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.72] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 07:43:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:43:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 730 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.32 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Conspiracy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=KmUCxPwnr5C8vw7usHS989ENlSWCyD_A19U8CMz66ixZQ70D X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, samblo@c... wrote: > BTW, just yesterday I ran into this malicious content about > Theosophy and Madame Blavatsky, it was posted just a few days ago, > and manages to place the burden on Blavatsky for what Leadbeater > and Besant actually did. It's obviously untrue. Except of one erroneous statment about Krishnamurti, the most of material is dedicated to Blavatsky; really the most of it was written even before the activity of Besant. > The Plagiarisms of Madame Blavatsky > http://www.rense.com/general66/blav.htm Moreover, the later authors, among them CWL and AB, weren't convicted in plagiarism, but had to manage with many of those charges against HPB laid out in the article. From eletzerich@yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 01:28:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24873 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2005 08:28:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jul 2005 08:28:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 08:28:08 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 08:28:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.85] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 08:28:06 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:28:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1315 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.44 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.171.216.254 From: "Erica Letzerich" Subject: Re: Visit of Radha Burnier to the Greek Section X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419; y=sfUCXSRjxvbRB6uIE3Eh71-PjhS6ZDFr9ukOLagNbSJd8hJrhQ X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Dear friends, The visit of Mrs Radha Burnier to Greece was a Great inspiration for all the members of the Theosophical Society. The only incident was the distribution of a DVD made by fanatics Christians after her public lecture. It was a DVD made with the intention to be used in the public event of the T.S. in Greece. See it has passed 54 years since the T.S. in Greece made a public event. Well in the end of the lecture without me noticing they distribute for the public leaving the hall of the T.S. (around 200 hundred persons) a DVD. On the cover of the DVD it was written "Shamballa and the White Brotherhood". The DVD was accusing the Theosophical Society of black magic, human sacrifices etc. They used the symbol of the T.S. and also photos of Blavatsky. It was a 40 minutes production made in Greek language. They did not gave it into my hands otherwise I would have not allow them to go on with the distribution. Everybody who got it thought to be the advertisement of a New Age group. But unfortunatly was a ugly attack to the T.S. here. Well I felt like I was in the middle age. After this incident all the other lectures were all right and there were not major problems. Her public lecture in Acropolis was a great experience for all of us. Best wishes, Erica Letzerich From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 07:56:41 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 3435 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2005 14:56:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jul 2005 14:56:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.24) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 14:56:41 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 14:55:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 14:55:32 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:55:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2716 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.24 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Konstantin on "conspiracy theory" sort of thinking about Leadbeater's birthdate X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=7gGnYCPheEnuv-yMlvHebqz6Ym0WQDi6elfaHo4YBRpVc6inl5JC-yoU X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Konstantin, You write: "Assuming the date of marriage of his parents to be true, we MAY SUSPECT that Leadbeater was born out of marriage, and to provide him a better career (or legacy rights) the parents (or adopters, it they really weren't parents at all) bribed some officers to register him on the later date." caps added But we could also say that we MAY SUSPECT that Leadbeater was NOT "born out of marriage".... And we have two documents to support that.... What historical documents do you have to support your suspicion? I would suggest you read my essay titled: "Possibility versus Probability" at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/possibleversusprobable.htm It seems to me that you are simply indulging in mere speculation...isn't it possible that Leadbeater was born out of wedlock and isn't it possible that his parents bribed an official.....and isn't it possible... In my article pay especially close attention to the section that begins with the following paragraph: "If you receive a letter from a relative that [1] bears what looks like her signature, that [2] refers to family matters you and she commonly discuss, and that [3] was postmarked in the city where she lives, the probability is very great that she wrote it." Barzun and Graff in their work THE MODERN RESEARCHER state: "The rule of 'Give Evidence' is not be be violated. . . .No matter how possible or plausible the author's conjecture [at step 2 in the 4 step process] it cannot be accepted as truth [at step 4] if he has only his hunch [which is not evidence] to support it. Truth rests not on possibility or plausibility but on probability. Probability means the balance of chances that, GIVEN SUCH AND SUCH EVIDENCE [at step 3], the event it records happened in a certain way; or, in other cases, that a supposed event did not in fact take place." Caps added. ...GIVEN SUCH AND SUCH EVIDENCE.... You have no evidence.............only possibilities. Throughout all three of his books on HPB and the Masters, K. Paul Johnson also indulges in the same kind of speculation and constantly violates the historical rule of "Give evidence." In his Theosophical History review of Johnson's THE MASTERS REVEALED, Dr. John Algeo mentions Johnson's penchant for speculation spinning and cites an excellent example. In a single paragraph, Johnson attempts to make a connection between Ranbir Singh and Morya using the following "possibility-plausibility" qualifiers: "it is not unlikely . . . may have . . . it seems possible that . . . perhaps . . . would have made . . . could have found . . . may have made . . . might have been . . ." (The Masters Revealed, p. 136) Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 08:12:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69555 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2005 15:12:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jul 2005 15:12:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.46) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 15:12:11 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n17.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 15:11:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.84] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 15:11:53 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:11:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3911 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.46 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Why would Leadbeater change his birthdate? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=VgAxGL7R1_zutOyzMGIiTEzH0DRyErti4lczpIAD1h_bJdu38xcukBCw X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell =============================================== Here is what C.W. Leadbeater wrote in his book THE MASTERS AND THE PATH: =============================================== Madame Blavatsky has often told us how she met the Master Morya in Hyde Park, London, in the year 1851, when He came over with a number of other Indian Princes to attend the first great International Exhibition. Strangely enough, I myself, then a little child of four, saw Him also, all unknowing. I can remember being taken to see a gorgeous procession, in which among many other wonders came a party of richly-dressed Indian horsemen. Magnificent horsemen they were, riding steeds as fine, I suppose, as any in the world, and it was only natural that my childish eyes were fixed upon them in great delight, and that they were perhaps to me the finest exhibit of that marvellous and fairy-like show. And even as I watched them pass, as I stood holding my father' s hand, one of the tallest of those heroes fixed me with gleaming black eyes, which half-frightened me, and yet at the same time filled me somehow with indescribable happiness and exaltation. He passed with the others and I saw Him no more, yet often the vision of that flashing eye returned to my childish memory. Of course, l knew nothing then of who He was, and I should never have identified Him had it not been for a gracious remark which He made to me many years afterwards. Speaking one day in His presence of the earlier days of the Society I happened to say that the first time I had had the privilege of seeing Him in materialized form was on a certain occasion when He came into Madame Blavatsky' s room at Adyar, for the purpose of giving her strength and issuing certain directions. He Himself, who was engaged in conversation with some other Adepts, turned sharply upon me and said: "No, that was not the first time. You had seen me before then in my physical body. Do you not remember, as a tiny child, watching the Indian horsemen ride past in Hyde Park, and did you not see how even then I singled you out?" I remembered instantly, of course, and said "Oh, Master, was that you? But I ought to have known it." I do not mention this incident among the occasions when I have met and spoken with a Master, both parties to the interview being in the physical body, because I did not at the time know that great horseman to be the Master, and because the evidence of so small a child might well be doubted or discounted. ===================================================== Notice that Leadbeater said the year he saw the Master Morya in London was 1851. He even relates that he was "a little child of four." Do the math. 1851 - 4 = 1847 Notice also that Leadbeater said he later had a personal talk with Master Morya in which the Master himself confirmed the incident of 1851. I quote again the conversation between Morya and Leadbeater: =================================================== [Morya said to Leadbeater:] "No, that was not the first time. You had seen me before then in my physical body. Do you not remember, as a tiny child, watching the Indian horsemen ride past in Hyde Park, and did you not see how even then I singled you out?" I remembered instantly, of course, and said "Oh, Master, was that you? But I ought to have known it." =================================================== But if Leadbeater was actually born in 1854 as his birth record and other records indicate, he could NOT have been a "little child of four" in 1851. The Master said: "Do you not remember...?" But how could Leadbeater remember this 1851 event if he was not born until 1854? Did Leadbeater change his birthdate from 1854 to 1847 so he could claim that he ALSO met the Master Morya in London in 1851? Leadbeater even says that Master Morya said to him: "....did you not see how even then I SINGLED YOU OUT?" caps added. Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 10:29:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98974 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2005 17:29:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jul 2005 17:29:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.45) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 17:29:49 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n16.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 17:29:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.85] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 17:29:16 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:29:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4064 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.45 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Donald J. DeGracia Accepts the 1854 Birthdate for C.W. Leadbeater X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=SdXr6--eFbbDyKuBTH0Gtuzf3NrWkUy0Vb1oae2KWhK_2EzWt5LiriEc X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Donald J. DeGracia apparently accepts the 1854 birthdate for C.W. Leadbeater. See his online book titled "BEYOND THE PHYSICAL: A Synthesis of Science and Occultism In Light of Fractals, Chaos and Quantum Theory" He writes: "Charles Webster Leadbeater (1854-1934), though not in his day sharing the same degree of public notoriety as Annie Besant, is no less controversial a figure. Leadbeater's life is shrouded in intrigue and mystery. A recent biographer has attempted to piece together details 1, but many mysteries still remain. The whole origins of the Theosophical Society, the accounts of Blavatsky, and the roles played by Besant and Leadbeater, as well as the life exploits of these figures and others (most notably J. Krishnamurti) make up a most incredible set of stories. These have been amply documented and I have no intention of going into them here 2. However, the unfamiliar reader is strongly recommended to look into these biographies, if simply for the sheer drama. 1 Tillet, (1982). 2 Leadbeater's biography is presented in the previous footnote. For biographies of other relevant individuals see: For H.P. Blavatsky; Neff, (1971) and Meade, (1980). For Annie Besant; Besant, (1893) and Dinnage, (1986). For J. Krishnamurti see; Lutyens, (1975)." Quoted from: http://pturing.firehead.org/occult/misc-pdf/beyond_the_physical.pdf It would be interesting to know DeGracia's thinking about Leadbeater's claim to have been in London in 1851 in light of the 1854 birthdate he gives above. I give below Leadbeater's account of the London experience extracted from his book THE MASTERS AND THE PATH: =============================================== Madame Blavatsky has often told us how she met the Master Morya in Hyde Park, London, in the year 1851, when He came over with a number of other Indian Princes to attend the first great International Exhibition. Strangely enough, I myself, then a little child of four, saw Him also, all unknowing. I can remember being taken to see a gorgeous procession, in which among many other wonders came a party of richly-dressed Indian horsemen. Magnificent horsemen they were, riding steeds as fine, I suppose, as any in the world, and it was only natural that my childish eyes were fixed upon them in great delight, and that they were perhaps to me the finest exhibit of that marvellous and fairy-like show. And even as I watched them pass, as I stood holding my father' s hand, one of the tallest of those heroes fixed me with gleaming black eyes, which half-frightened me, and yet at the same time filled me somehow with indescribable happiness and exaltation. He passed with the others and I saw Him no more, yet often the vision of that flashing eye returned to my childish memory. Of course, l knew nothing then of who He was, and I should never have identified Him had it not been for a gracious remark which He made to me many years afterwards. Speaking one day in His presence of the earlier days of the Society I happened to say that the first time I had had the privilege of seeing Him in materialized form was on a certain occasion when He came into Madame Blavatsky' s room at Adyar, for the purpose of giving her strength and issuing certain directions. He Himself, who was engaged in conversation with some other Adepts, turned sharply upon me and said: "No, that was not the first time. You had seen me before then in my physical body. Do you not remember, as a tiny child, watching the Indian horsemen ride past in Hyde Park, and did you not see how even then I singled you out?" I remembered instantly, of course, and said "Oh, Master, was that you? But I ought to have known it." I do not mention this incident among the occasions when I have met and spoken with a Master, both parties to the interview being in the physical body, because I did not at the time know that great horseman to be the Master, and because the evidence of so small a child might well be doubted or discounted. ===================================================== Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 10:45:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18012 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2005 17:45:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jul 2005 17:45:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.32) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 17:45:05 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n15.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 17:45:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.75] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 17:45:01 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:44:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2728 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.32 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: The "possibility/plausibility" method of argument: An example X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=BqDN9n7SNUUDUBxAt19NVmBh6rHcfq5SPI0guqHvm7eyIbh5AClGwGMm X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The "possibility/plausibility" method of argument: An example "Truth rests not on possibility or plausibility but on probability." --- Barzun and Graffe, THE MODERN RESEARCHER The "possibility/plausibility" method of argument is a very useful tool in unpacking and throwing doubt on ANY normal or paranormal event/experience/experiment. I give below an excellent example of this method of argument from THE TRANSCENDENTAL TEMPTATION by Paul Kurtz, a founding member of CSICOP. Notice how Kurtz focuses on POSSIBILITIES/PLAUSIBILITIES. I put certain words in CAPS to show his technique. "Many psychic investigators were apparently impressed by the Fielding report on Eusapia Palladino [the famous Italian medium]. . . .Were some of the medium's manifestations genuine? . . . Or MAY WE SURMISE that Eusapia was more clever than Feilding and his associates? DID EUSAPIA HAVE accomplices --- PERHAPS Italians, scientists, and friends who had attended several seances, or even Carrington? DID SHE USE every trick in the book, changing them to suit her purposes? Since she was a voluptuous woman, WERE HER MALE SITTERS taken in by her erotic charms and DID THEY FAIL to take the proper precautions? Eusapia was OBVIOUSLY a master illusionist, well-versed in her craft; and those who sat with her, through skilled in their specialties, MAY PERHAPS have been outsmarted by her. The Feilding report denies the POSSIBILITY of accomplices or prearrangments in the hotel. But should we accept the denial?" MAY WE SURMISE....PERHAPS...MAY PERHAPS. "Where's the beef?" Kurtz offers only POSSIBILITIES & PLAUSIBILITES. But Kurtz does NOT offer any evidence to his readers to help them answer his questions. Some readers might falsely assume that "something" has been proven or disproven by Kurtz's use of this method of argument. It should be pointed out that in contrast to Kurtz's "perhaps", the Feilding Report offers various kinds of EVIDENCE in support of the authors' conclusions. That is not to say that the questions entertained by Kurtz are not worthy of consideration. But such questions should lead to further research on the subject and to the accumulation of evidence. In fact, the Feilding Report contains EVIDENCE that would actually answer many of Kurtz's questions. The above example illustrates Ray Hyman's statement that "it is ALWAYS possible to 'imagine' SOME scenario in which cheating no matter how implausible, COULD HAVE occurred." By using this "possibility/plausibility" method of argument, "one can 'HYPOTHETICALLY' explain away ANY result [even] in science [or history or the paranormal]." My notebooks are full of hundreds of such examples . Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 10:57:31 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 11025 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2005 17:57:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jul 2005 17:57:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.56) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jul 2005 17:57:30 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n27.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 17:56:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.78] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2005 17:56:25 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:56:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3103 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.56 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Marion Meade "explains" the famous cup and saucer incident?? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=OzM4tqNnkQcZnbMzPmd3s8i8-IWdoPEsIDOpXawuP1O25mS4kVXoyKkx X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Marion Meade "explains" the famous cup and saucer incident in her biography MADAME BLAVATSKY, p.223-224 as follows: "At the time and even later Alfred could find no loopholes in what came to be known as 'the cup and saucer incident.' He based his conviction mainly on the fact that Madame Blavatsky could not have known in advance that there would be seven guests in the party, as the judge had arrived only at the last minute. OBVIOUSLY she did know, and so did Patience Sinnett because Olcott overheard her telling the butler: 'It was very stupid of you not to put in another cup and saucer when you knew that the other gentleman would have to have tea.' It seems reasonable TO ASSUME that H.P.B. had instructed Babula to bury the cup and saucer, then led the picnickers to the spot herself. In fact, this notion had already occurred to the judge and police chief who later in the afternoon examined the site. Their final conclusion was that it was theoretically POSSIBLE for someone to have tunneled in from below and thrust the cup and saucer up into the place where they were discovered. Apparently Babula later confided to Emma Coulomb that this was exactly what he had done. In the experts' opinion, the phenomenon could not be accepted as scientifically perfect and, somewhat indelicately, they challenged her to repeat it under test conditions. Helena, who had worked hard to stage the tableau, could not keep herself from exploding. Henry vividly remembered that 'she seemed to take leave of her senses and poured out upon the two unfortunate skeptics the thunder of her wrath. And so our pleasant party ended in an angry tempest.' " Caps added Is Meade's explanation just one of many "possible" explanations or is Meade's explanation the most "probable" explanation in light of all the known evidence? In other words, are we at step 2 or at step 4 with Meade's "explanation"? Is Meade actually explaining the incident [at step 4] or is Meade simply speculating [at step 2]? See 4 Step Process at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/history3.htm Is Meade simply using the "unpacking" method I've described before? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4421 As Ray Hyman wrote: "it is ALWAYS possible to 'imagine' SOME scenario in which cheating no matter how implausible, COULD HAVE occurred." Caps added. This is a step 2 technique. Is Meade simply using the "possibility/plausibility" method of argument? See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4423 for an example. Has Meade followed the Barzun and Graffe dictum? "The rule of 'Give Evidence' is not be be violated. . . .No matter how possible or plausible the author's conjecture it cannot be accepted as truth if he has only his hunch [which is not evidence] to support it. Truth rests not on possibility or plausibility but on probability. Probability means the balance of chances that, GIVEN SUCH AND SUCH EVIDENCE, the event it records happened in a certain way; or, in other cases, that a supposed event did not in fact take place." Caps added. Daniel H. Caldwell http://blavatskyarchives.com From lalaya7@yahoo.com.br Wed Jul 13 19:38:41 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lalaya7@yahoo.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83794 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 02:38:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 02:38:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.45) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 02:38:40 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n16.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 02:38:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.88] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 02:38:40 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 02:38:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <42C9BA45.5040208@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 782 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.45 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 200.96.249.55 From: "Alaya" Subject: Re: Theos-World Bart on: Leadbeater's Master (K.H.) wrote 'I am pleased with you X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=160996087; y=1j8fkoM8r9GonS58PVH1UXVX7Hhn45_r0esmotr4-e8kUg X-Yahoo-Profile: lalaya7 well, the letter is from 1886, and as we are all well acquainted, most chelas failed, only one truly suceeded, and this was Damodar... and since leadbeater wasn't invited in the late years of HPB for her last truly occult project, and wasn't even in touch with her any longer... we may suppose he is one of the many who also failed... as HPB attests very clearly... having recieved a letter is no sing of authority --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: > >> Unfortunately, he was writing about Olcott. > >> > > Bart, as far as I can tell, you are wrong on this and > > Anand is correct. See: > > > > http://www.tphta.ws/CWL_KHLE.HTM > > Oh! You're talking about THOSE letters. Do the originals still exist? > > Bart From lalaya7@yahoo.com.br Wed Jul 13 20:20:01 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lalaya7@yahoo.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72235 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 03:20:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 03:20:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.62) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 03:20:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n9.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 03:19:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 03:19:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.86] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 03:19:29 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 03:19:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 373 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.62 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 200.96.249.55 From: "Alaya" Subject: Anand and Leadbeaterianism X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=160996087; y=x38XKYk_fCvGRJsmFKXGvFAEdDFkBF_Dq1lF-oM8X029Hw X-Yahoo-Profile: lalaya7 Since Anand finds HPB is not good enough her followers ar sick people that the secret doctrine is far from being good that isis unvieled (my english is dying hehe) is just a bunch of confusion and he doesn't take on consideration that the masters chose HPB and not leadbeater to found a society maybe anand should found his own society or some kind of LEadbeaterianism ;) From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Jul 13 21:39:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63830 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 04:39:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 04:39:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.11) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 04:39:35 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.240]) by mta1.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 116040227 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:39:11 -0500 CDT Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20050713085317.009ef300@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:56:06 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6B6C4ACF X-DNS-Paranoid: DNS lookup didn't match (69.9.96.240)->(gbrdialin)->() X-SpamDetect: *: 1.950000 Contains 'Dear friend'=1.6,From: does not include a real name=0.3 X-NotAscii: charset=us-ascii; X-Avast: Message is clean X-Originating-IP: 69.9.90.11 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Visit of Radha Burnier to the Greek Section X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674; y=dJToXs2IDIfUMKuMvrLNZn6pwtT9m93gCmyXlD--KRlvlLPsQQqWpA X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Glad to see your msg. It looks like someone inside the TS may be responsible for the fanatic Christians to go to the trouble and expense of making DVD and distributing it. I hope this does not have any effect on the spread of theosophy in Greece. MKR At 08:28 AM 07/13/05 +0000, Erica Letzerich wrote: >Dear friends, > >The visit of Mrs Radha Burnier to Greece was a Great inspiration for >all the members of the Theosophical Society. > >The only incident was the distribution of a DVD made by fanatics >Christians after her public lecture. It was a DVD made with the >intention to be used in the public event of the T.S. in Greece. See it >has passed 54 years since the T.S. in Greece made a public event. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.13/47 - Release Date: 07/12/05 From silva_cass@yahoo.com Wed Jul 13 22:05:10 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21265 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 05:05:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 05:05:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web30115.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.201.223) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 05:05:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 83194 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Jul 2005 05:05:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20050714050507.83192.qmail@web30115.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.113] by web30115.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:05:07 PDT Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 22:05:07 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 68.142.201.223 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:7:0 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World Konstantin on "conspiracy theory" sort of thinking about Leadbeater's birthdate X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531; y=m1V1Lg5XSWHLClidSQrReWQpyGRMoghXRxWv6UKKKkJYXQ9piA X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel Any chance Leadbeater was adopted? Cass __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 00:38:31 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92619 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 07:38:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 07:38:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.51) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 07:38:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n22.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 07:38:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.89] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 07:38:26 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:38:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1895 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.51 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Why would Leadbeater change his birthdate? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=XVwhsfFQMi63tX9xCnh_fm2rvdsxCAiwvjAiuQCUNN-0RPTL X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > It seems to me that you are simply indulging in > mere speculation... First, it was in context of conspiracy theory; it is just one more. Secondly, it was in line with the policy to ascribe the best motive, not the worst. Take an example with HPB. Sometimes she said one thing, sometimes another, and those who ascribe to her some vicious motives conclude that she was simply lying. Yet we say that different people could use her body, so is some inconsistance. It's just a probability and maybe even a speculation, but we readily accept it. There are many instances from her life which could be explained by deliberate forgery and deceit, while we hold other opinion. > Here is what C.W. Leadbeater wrote in > his book THE MASTERS AND THE PATH: > one of the tallest of those heroes fixed me > with gleaming black eyes, which half-frightened me, He wrote that book at very end of his life, when he had nothing to lose. Do you mean that he has forged his birthdate in order only to mention this incident 40 years later? If it is a fancy, it would be much easier to invent some another incident which doesn't require tampering with a date. BTW, Alice Bailey wrote that Master K.H. came right to her home in England when she was 15. Yet another hypothesis. Leadbeater was born in 1847 and died in the age of 6 or so; then he at once reincarnated in 1854. It was one incarnation from occult point of view, for it was the same personality, so he didn't take a trouble to explain all that and regarded 1847 his true birthdate for that incarnation. Third hypothesis is that both HPB and CWL were humbugs. It explains wery well why HPB welcomed CWL - she just recognized a man who was very akin to her. Here we ascribe the worst motive to both, so this theory should be welcomed by most matter-of-fact people ;) From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 00:48:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66347 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 07:48:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 07:48:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.60) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 07:48:34 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n7.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 07:48:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 07:48:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.75] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 07:48:31 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:48:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 773 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.60 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Theos-World Bart on: Leadbeater's Master (K.H.) wrote 'I am pleased with you X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=Y9LqZU6IOMqME-dtlThRL4tbLuaIikhOeMNJe6rRc2ycsgXd X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Alaya" wrote: > well, the letter is from 1886, and as we are all well acquainted, most > chelas failed, only one truly suceeded, and this was Damodar... and > since leadbeater wasn't invited in the late years of HPB for her > last truly occult project, and wasn't even in touch with her any longer... If we are to believe that the letters is genuine, it follows from them that Leadbeater was needed to Master particulary for work in India and Sri Lanka, so he wasn't with HPB in London during her last years. Besant was, and does it mean a thing? A standard probation is 7 years, and there are evidences of friendly attitude of HPB to CWL in later years too. We also know that she broke relations with those who really failed. From forums@sova.us Thu Jul 14 00:54:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: forums@sova.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4333 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 07:54:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 07:54:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 07:54:05 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 07:53:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.72] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 07:53:59 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 07:53:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 372 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.41 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 213.208.171.147 From: "sova7777" Subject: Re: Why would Leadbeater change his birthdate? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=209526132; y=v6clgW-JKcRcvp7cZwIkoCQLnhzswPZfjhcF9ugl5AoaPAk X-Yahoo-Profile: sova7777 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Konstantin Zaitzev" wrote: > Yet another hypothesis. Daniel asked for evidence. Can you provide any _evidence_ supporting any of your speculations on this subject? Daniel pointed at the _evidence_ backing up his statement about CWL's giving a wrong date of his birth. Can you do a similar thing for your theories? From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 03:17:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59582 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 10:17:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 10:17:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.47) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 10:17:45 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n18.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 10:17:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.83] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 10:17:41 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 10:17:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 655 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.47 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Why would Leadbeater change his birthdate? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=jp8X81HevNHRuMjLXIUG4uJpr7lK2aXz3JaazRVrDOUsHbMT X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "sova7777" wrote: > Daniel asked for evidence. Can you provide any _evidence_ supporting > any of your speculations on this subject? Daniel pointed at the > _evidence_ backing up his statement about CWL's giving a wrong date of his birth. Can you do a similar thing for your theories? There is an evidence (though it is a second hand evidence for no one of us has seen the documents) and there can be many theories explaining why the documents say so. The point that CWL gave a wrond date is a CONCLUSION, not the fact itself. The fact, if it is a fact at all, gives space for several theories. From forums@sova.us Thu Jul 14 04:51:31 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: forums@sova.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49721 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 11:51:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 11:51:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.52) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 11:51:30 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n23.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 11:51:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 11:51:28 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:51:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 372 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.52 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 213.208.171.147 From: "sova7777" Subject: Re: Why would Leadbeater change his birthdate? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=209526132; y=AZdXFUTl4ZJflGJk9hSB4zbk9ndndE2TKbkejSfEq8tVaUY X-Yahoo-Profile: sova7777 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Konstantin Zaitzev" wrote: > The point that CWL gave a wrond date is a CONCLUSION, not the fact > itself. Correct. But this conclusion is based on pretty hard evidence that has been shown. > The fact, if it is a fact at all, gives space for several theories. Now, what is the evidence supporting those theories? From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 05:25:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90016 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 12:25:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 12:25:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.48) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 12:25:39 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n19.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 12:25:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.73] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 12:25:21 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:25:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1043 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.48 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Why would Leadbeater change his birthdate? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=beV3Wz2H6OdvxORQeM2QaOev_SpRaBshjo3Wz6t4fkdwmy6_ X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "sova7777" wrote: > Correct. But this conclusion is based on pretty hard evidence that has been shown. Not hard, but SOFT, for we have only an eletronic text, not a paper document. >> The fact, if it is a fact at all, gives space for several theories. > Now, what is the evidence supporting those theories? I admit that there are no evidences, exactly as there are no such evidences for other theories; for all they are purely speculative, not this one only. Yet some theories seem to me not very probable, for they imply that there was almost no logic in Leadbeater actions. If he was really so naive to lie when there are documents exposing him, it crushes other theories which ascribe to him some sophisticated and vicious plots. If he really was a designing man, he should take trouble to destroy the documents, and he could easily do that, for he was a clergyman and could invent some plausible means to penetrate into the archives of the church where he was registered. From lalaya7@yahoo.com.br Thu Jul 14 07:23:17 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lalaya7@yahoo.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72170 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 14:23:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 14:23:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 14:23:16 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 14:21:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.79] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 14:21:28 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:21:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1463 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.35 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 201.24.55.77 From: "Alaya" Subject: Re: Why would Leadbeater change his birthdate? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=160996087; y=vQEHvf_IL0LQaYbkmsGAqq2aM-2H3TG_dE8jzQlLQoHEAQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lalaya7 "Yet some theories seem to me not very probable, for they imply that there was almost no logic in Leadbeater actions. If he was really so naive to lie when there are documents exposing him, it crushes other theories which ascribe to him some sophisticated and vicious plots" very well said =) --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Konstantin Zaitzev" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "sova7777" wrote: > > > Correct. But this conclusion is based on pretty hard evidence that > has been shown. > > Not hard, but SOFT, for we have only an eletronic text, not a paper > document. > > >> The fact, if it is a fact at all, gives space for several > theories. > > > Now, what is the evidence supporting those theories? > > I admit that there are no evidences, exactly as there are no such > evidences for other theories; for all they are purely speculative, not > this one only. Yet some theories seem to me not very probable, for > they imply that there was almost no logic in Leadbeater actions. If he > was really so naive to lie when there are documents exposing him, it > crushes other theories which ascribe to him some sophisticated and > vicious plots. If he really was a designing man, he should take > trouble to destroy the documents, and he could easily do that, for he > was a clergyman and could invent some plausible means to penetrate > into the archives of the church where he was registered. From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 07:47:15 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 82012 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 14:47:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 14:47:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.55) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 14:47:15 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n26.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 14:46:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.73] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 14:46:31 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:46:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1294 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.55 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: But Konstantin it was not only the problem with the birthdate.... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=cECq0gJF6si0DIKSb3zCm_IUGbusFjUrIWTk2ocppZaA6ad_UsDxkZeh X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Konstantin, I think you are forgetting that the birthdate is not the only problem. I will simply quote what Gregory Tillett wrote not long ago on this forum in response to comments by Anand: "Anand also misses the point that it was not only the birthdate about which Leadbeater lied. For example, Leadbeater said he was a student at Oxford (or in some accounts, Cambridge): neither University has any record of him being a student or even applying to be a student. Mistake? Leadbeater said his father was the chairman of a railway company: but Leadbeater himself described his father as a book-keeper when reporting his death. Leadbeater described a rebellion in Brazil (ignoring the fact that he was not there) which did not happen, involving a General unknown to Brazilian history. Here, of course, brother Gerald (of whose birth and death no records exists)supposedly died, prior to being reincarnated as Jinarajadasa." "Being the son of a railway company chairman, born in the impressive sounding(but non-existent) Lea Green Hall, who had adventures in Brazil, who went to Oxford but had to leave when the family fortune was lost.....much more exciting than being the poorly educated son of an impoverished and fairly itinerant book-keeper." Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 08:05:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89378 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 15:05:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 15:05:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.37) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 15:05:37 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 15:04:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.76] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 15:04:34 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:04:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 826 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.37 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Konstantin: "....Yet another hypothesis...." !!! :) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=ExBfURItYqHT5OVe0hA_axsueWdWNLzfU7rSq9jVVmDLtWu1aFV6DnKa X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Konstantin, You write: "Yet another hypothesis. Leadbeater was born in 1847 and died in the age of 6 or so; then he at once reincarnated in 1854. It was one incarnation from occult point of view, for it was the same personality, so he didn't take a trouble to explain all that and regarded 1847 his true birthdate for that incarnation." This speculation of yours only proves what was stated in my essay at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/possibleversusprobable.htm "it is ALWAYS POSSIBLE to IMAGINE some scenario....." You have only one supposition piled on top of another supposition which in turn is piled on top of another supposition.... This may be an interesting exercise but it leads us nowhere. The bottom line is: Is there any evidence to support any of this "speculation"? Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 08:20:43 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31074 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 15:20:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 15:20:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.59) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 15:20:42 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n6.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 15:19:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 15:19:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.87] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 15:19:12 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:19:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1472 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.59 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Konstantin: "...Not hard, but SOFT...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=aKfZZIqXjHWT0gAdDG0D65LfdiaY7xbR8NDsrd4m9PM1vs_WWDs7xl9W X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Sova7777 wrote: "...But this conclusion is based on pretty hard evidence that has been shown." Konstantin replied: "Not hard, but SOFT, for we have only an eletronic text, not a paper document...." Konstantin, I'm not exactly sure what your point is here. Maybe I misunderstand you. I would say yes we have HARD evidence. If you take the time and effort you could obtain or have access to the following "paper documents": ================================================== (1) British marriage records indicate that Leadbeater's parents were married on May 26, 1853. (2) Leadbeater's own birth record indicates that he was born on February 16, 1854. [NOTE: Connecting the facts presented in (1) and (2), one can see that Leadbeater was born about 9 months after his parents were married. Not surprising in light of known facts about human reproduction.] (3) Leadbeater's mother gave his age [confirming the 1854 birthdate] when registering her husband's death. (4) In the Anglican diocesan records, Leadbeater gave his birth date [1854] on his application for ordination in the Church of England (5) In the census return submitted by Leadbeater in 1881, he stated as Head of the Household that his age was 27 (i.e. born in 1854). ======================================================= Gregory Tillett has taken the time and effort to locate these HARD documents and even presents a photographic facsimile of the birth record. Daniel http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 08:51:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79152 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 15:51:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 15:51:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 15:51:27 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 15:50:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.84] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 15:50:21 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 15:50:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2959 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.50 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 69.9.21.100 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: The rule of 'Give Evidence' is not be be violated.... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895; y=jXBFJ_X8ziFTp3GElD--8Zh1svLGRNC8TATtIJM67RJ3A95Cogivi0dk X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In their book "The Modern Researcher," the historians Jacques Barzun and Henry F. Graff comment: "If you receive a letter from a relative that [1] bears what looks like her signature, that [2] refers to family matters you and she commonly discuss, and that [3] was postmarked in the city where she lives, the probability is very great that she wrote it." "The CONTRARY hypothesis would need at least as many opposing signs [of evidence] in order to take root in your mind---though the possibility of forgery. . .is always there." caps added. Please note that in this example the hypothesis that the letter is really written by your relative is supported by three positive signs of evidence. Now a "skeptic" [maybe like Konstantin :) ] might argue: "Isn't it possible that [1] the relative's signature was forged, and, isn't it possible that [2] some 'forger' was somehow privy to family matters, and, furthermore, isn't it possible that [3] the forger could have mailed the letter in the city where your relative lives to throw you off the track?" And if you objected to such speculation, the critic might respond: "Prove to me that the three statements, I just listed, aren't possible. Didn't Barzun and Graff admit that the possibility of forgery. . . is always there?" But one should point out that possibilities and plausibilities [at step 2 in the Four Step Process of Discovery] are not to be confused with probabilities [at step 4]. Barzun and Graffe clearly enunciate an important dictum for the researcher: "The rule of 'Give Evidence' is not be be violated. . . .No matter how possible or plausible the author's conjecture [at step 2 in the 4 step process] it cannot be accepted as truth [at step 4] if he has only his hunch [which is not evidence] to support it. Truth rests not on possibility or plausibility but on probability. Probability means the balance of chances that, given such and such evidence [at step 3], the event it records happened in a certain way; or, in other cases, that a supposed event did not in fact take place." If the skeptic has no evidence, then his hypothesis is, in effect, null and void. Remember what Barzun and Graff said above: "The CONTRARY hypothesis would need at least as many opposing signs [of evidence] in order to take root in your mind...." Unfortunately, far too many persons become fixated on possibilities (IMAGINING various scenarios) and NEVER PROGRESS beyond to considering probabilities in the light of SUCH AND SUCH EVIDENCE. Many of these persons FIXATE and speculate on various possibilities at step 2---hoping that others will assume that something has been proven or disproven by such rhetoric and/or believing that they have actually proven or disproven something. See the chart on the Four Step Process: http://blavatskyarchives.com/history2.htm see also: http://blavatskyarchives.com/history5.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Thu Jul 14 09:40:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18560 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 16:39:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 16:39:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.40) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 16:39:56 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 16:38:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.82] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 16:38:16 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 16:38:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 649 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.40 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 212.16.3.64 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: Konstantin: "...Not hard, but SOFT...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=bIgC7nW8yA09U2BdUUIxjUm7jOIEmFfE_eHXU8fsJHPEfj9t X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > Gregory Tillett has taken the time and effort to locate these > HARD documents and even presents a photographic facsimile of the It seems that most of your evidences are based on the words of one man, G. Tillet, exactly as a report against HPB was based on the words of one man, Hodgeson. And now most of the world takes it for a face value. Modern technology enables to prepare any "facsimile". Browsing through the internet I've found that mr Tillet made a good business exposing Leadbeater. Note that when this source shall be exhausted, he probably may proceed to HPB ;) From forums@sova.us Thu Jul 14 12:12:01 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: forums@sova.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67807 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 19:11:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 19:11:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO relay02.infobox.ru) (195.208.235.29) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 19:11:57 -0000 Received: from ppp85-140-125-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru (ppp85-140-125-193.pppoe.mtu-net.ru [85.140.125.193]) by relay02.infobox.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74A5F00DDB3 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:09:55 +0400 (MSD) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:09:38 +0400 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1975281294.20050714230938@sova.us> To: Konstantin Zaitzev In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 195.208.235.29 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Vladimir Reply-To: Vladimir Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Konstantin: "...Not hard, but SOFT...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=209526132; y=H42mxhPMvAooNZOkyJ-Ltmps5Fhs9tyyyQVF1cWfX2Ui-HA X-Yahoo-Profile: sova7777 Thursday, July 14, 2005, 8:38:14 PM, Konstantin wrote: > It seems that most of your evidences are based on the words of one > man, G. Tillet Even if it were so, wouldn't it be a more sound basis for a theory than a mere speculation (which you even present as a speculation from the very beginning) supported by no man at all? > Yet some theories seem to me not very probable, for > they imply that there was almost no logic in Leadbeater actions. If he > was really so naive to lie when there are documents exposing him, it > crushes other theories which ascribe to him some sophisticated and > vicious plots. If he really was a designing man, he should take > trouble to destroy the documents, and he could easily do that, for he > was a clergyman and could invent some plausible means to penetrate > into the archives of the church where he was registered. Why should there be any logic in his actions? Is it really indispensable or unavoidable? And who talks about any sophisticated vicious plots? Maybe he was just a tender man with easy speech and wild imagination caring very little of utterances not immediately refutable... From lalaya7@yahoo.com.br Thu Jul 14 13:20:56 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lalaya7@yahoo.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90823 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 12:23:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Jul 2005 12:23:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 12:23:08 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n25.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 12:22:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.81] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2005 12:22:38 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:22:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4013 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.54 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 201.24.55.77 From: "Alaya" Subject: Re: Theos-World Bart on: Leadbeater's Master (K.H.) wrote 'I am pleased with you X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=160996087; y=AivrJ0ydPY-HhcJpmI4YIbBv7ijJ6glY_C7VmvTveNC__A X-Yahoo-Profile: lalaya7 well konstantin we know from the mahatma letters to sinnet that india was passing through a 'probation' and the mahatmas have said that it was india's last chance... and it seem that india failed also... reaching and absurd of the expulsion of HPB from her own society... HPB returned to europe to write the secret doctrine and to form a inner group yeas, besant was in this inner group besant and other 11 members! and Alas! ALL the members eventually left the society and started to say that they didn't agrree with what besant was doing so i ask you, why are the pupils of HPB, members of the INNER GROUP any worse that besant alone? the were co-workers... besant wasn't their leader. they hade the same occult training and should deserve the same respect that you all give to besant... so why besant should stay as someone better then the 11 togheter? stating their sadness about the direction the society was going... there was nothing left in India.... the society in india rupted... so i don't know what leadbeater was doing there... since the masters were trying to creat a last occult effort in the inner group of blavatsky.. and there we have Mr G.R.S.Mead, private secretary of HPB, who usually ansewered her letters, and led the esoteric section, acusing leadbeater in the 1906 inquiry... you have Constanse of Watchmeister, who left the society and died regreting the way the society turned under besant's guidance... you have Mrs Alice Cleather who wrote a book on the corruption of the society and the leadbeater problem... you have Isabel Cooper-Oakley who also left the society. Keithley also left the society, Emily Kilingbury left the society. well i could go on with the list, but i think you got my point so why the statements of besant should be taken as superior than the opinion of all her coleagues who were chosen to be occult trained and who all disagread on the terms besant was leading the society? is she any better than all the other members of the inner group? plus, we have judge's problem, who, as HPB states was a accepted chela for more than 30 years standing, while besant was only in probation... besant was never chosed by the council to be the president, she 'stole the chair'. well, and since the masters were mainly with hpb, and we know that the chelas on probation failed, and leadbeater was away in india doing we don't know what (maybe molesting some pupils) i really don't understand why we must put besant and leadbeater in an altar and adore them. Many people recieved letters, and no one is adoring those people, having recieved a letter doesn't make leadbeater better in any way, and specilly doesn't make him superior than HPB (as some people here are trying to say) while there is an 'adoration' of this to, people