From eletzerich@yahoo.com Wed Jun 01 00:16:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17359 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 07:16:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 07:16:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.28) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 07:16:28 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n14.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 07:16:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.88] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 07:16:09 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:16:08 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 661 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.28 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.171.216.254 From: "Erica Letzerich" Subject: Re: News T.S. in Greece X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419; y=1RPnfk34D8yZzQisCx3YR3axufd1oinQTMI1r0xvdM1qY7rR7Q X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Dear friends, In one month Mrs Radha Burnier will be here in Greece. It is the first time she will give lectures in this county. She had visited Greece many years ago with her father Sri Ram when he was President of the T.S. She will be giving four lectures, the last one will be held Sunday morning, open air on the stairs of Acropolis. `The Art of Living' `From Human to Superhuman Life' `The Real Work of the Theosophical Society' `Living Fully and Dying Peacefully' Visit the site of the T.S. in Greece to read some more news related to activities developed online. Best wishes, Erica http://www.theosophicalsociety.gr/firstpage/index.htm From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Wed Jun 01 01:57:09 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57703 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 08:57:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 08:57:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.45) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 08:57:08 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n16.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 08:56:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.79] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 08:56:35 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:56:34 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20050530003026.75658.qmail@web30106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 15224 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.45 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.187.209.126 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky's extremely wrong statement X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566; y=jq9DJENlvO_2oCyroglGyu14kY1tquStjbKOQEhjiuZlAFKR6hc3Klg X-Yahoo-Profile: anandgholap_net Cass, Masters called Blavatsky's writing Isis Unveiled as "shadow of skeleton (of Truth) " and not soul. Besant and Leadbeater teaching is relatively much more complete, it is bones, flesh and the soul of Theosophy. Anand Gholap --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva wrote: > Anand > Perhaps you are right, Besant and Leadbeater could be seen as stepping stones and are certainly easier to read than Helena, they are the bones of theosophy but when the soul needs more nourishing it needs the marrow within the bone. > Cass > > Anand Gholap wrote: > Jerry, > People who depend on Blavatsky's writing, takes it seriously keep on > speculating endlessly, keep on discussing and arguing what she means > and never reach conclusion. It is such a messy way of writing that > has driven many people crazy. Lucky is a person who does not read > Blavatsky's writing and does not damage his mind by trying to find > meaning in that mess. > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins > wrote: > > Dear Anand, friends, > > > > While I see little value in simply quoting from essays and > declaring the > > statements to be right or wrong, a close analysis on an essay is > > important in order to correctly understand it. Therefore, I do > believe > > that there is much value in analyzing, and criticizing Theosophical > > articles and books. In our study groups, we teach and encourage > such a > > critical analysis. Such exercises are basic to accurately > interpreting > > and evaluating what the writer is actually trying to communicate. > > > > I have posted below a model (but not the last word) of how this > kind of > > analysis can be done. This is sometimes called "a close reading" > of the > > text, and is a necessary precursor to an intelligently done > criticism of > > it. I chose "A Reply to our Critics," in order to contrast the > previous > > criticism which was not done with a close reading in order to show > how > > such a close reading reveals a tightly reasoned complex of inter- > related > > ideas, the understanding of which brings a much more comprehensive > > presentation of ideas than could a mere selected quote, taken out > of > > it's own context. > > > > I recommend that you read the article for yourself before reading > my > > rendering of it. That way, you will get more out of it. I welcome > > responses and invite you to compose close readings for yourself. > It is > > a valuable exercise. Enjoy. > > > > > > The article in question: "A Reply to Our Critics (Our final answer > to > > several objections)" (BCW III:221-26) is one of HPB's many > > editorial-like articles where she is trying to defend Theosophy and > the > > Theosophical Society from the criticism of the popular press, which > > writes mostly from misconceptions anyway. Such articles are > different > > from those where she is trying to impart some deeper occult idea. > > Rather, in these editorial-like articles, she typically is busy > > simultaneously correcting mis-information and pointing to the > faulty > > thinking which led to the errors in the first place. > > > > The article thus begins by posing HPB's "final answer" to several > > repeated criticisms she and Olcott had received concerning The > Theosophist: > > 1) That the use of the word "spiritualism" in the sub-heading of > The > > Theosophist is intended to attract subscribers from the > Spiritualists. > > 2) That The Theosophist neglects the use of scientific induction > (222); > > 3) That the editors do not sufficiently exercise their "editorial > right > > of selection." (225). > > > > The first criticism (regarding spiritualism), HPB uses to > distinguish > > the difference between spiritual perception and communicating with > the > > "dearly departed." > > > > The second criticism (scientific induction) leads into a > discussion on > > discerning truth. This is the section upon where Anand posted his > > objection. > > > > The third criticism (editorial right of selection) leads into a > > discussion on the editorial policy of The Theosophist. > > > > > > 1) The use of the word "spiritualism" in the sub-heading. > > > > The phrase HPB is alluding to in this article but not quoting was > on the > > title page of every issue of The Theosophist: > > > > "THE THEOSOPHIST A MONTHLY JOURNAL DEVOTED TO ORIENTAL PHILOSOPHY, > ART, > > LITERATURE AND OCCULTISM: EMBRACING MESMERISM, SPIRITUALISM AND > OTHER > > SECRET SCIENCES." > > > > Now, in this article, HPB refers to the practitioners and/or > believers > > in the popular notion of spiritualism, i.e. communication with the > dead, > > as "Spiritualists" (BCW III: 222) and those who follow her > definition > > as "orthodox Spiritualists." Students of Theosophy are aware that > HPB > > held a special definition of the word "spiritualism" (as she did of > the > > word "occultism") i.e. "the state or condition of mind opposed to > > materialism or a material conception of things (Theos. Glossary > 285). > > > > Therefore, what HPB means by spiritualism and what her critics mean > by > > spiritualism are two very different things. Note that in the > heading of > > The Theosophist, spiritualism (i.e. her definition of it) is one of > the > > "secret sciences." Spiritualism (HPB's definition) is a secret > science > > because the true spiritualist perceives from a spiritual level of > > consciousness, as opposed to the material. I believe that HPB's > > definition is (or nearly is) what Anand means when he used below, > the > > word "intuition." However, in the nineteenth century, "intuition" > did > > not have the spiritual overtones which Anand is putting upon it. > > > > HPB further quotes a critic for writing that The Theosophist is > devoted > > to spiritualism (the critic's definition) "in the hopes that it > should > > do us good service among the Spiritualists" (BCW III:221). HPB > quickly > > dismisses the criticism by point out that "present day subscribers > from > > 'Spiritual' quarters have not amounted to four percent of our > > subscription list (BCW III:221). She then distinguishes her > definition > > from their's, and points out that her definition "is an insult to > their > > [Spiritualist's] belief, and in turn [the Spiritualists] ridicule > and > > oppose us" (BCW III:222). > > > > Therefore, HPB's argument is that from her oft repeated use of the > term > > "spiritualism" as spiritual perception, The Theosophist is a > magazine > > concerning higher knowledge, not "Spiritualism" in the popular > sense. > > > > > > 2) The Theosophists neglects the use of Scientific induction. > > > > HPB counters that "in the face of the many crucial and strictly > > scientific experiments made by our most eminent savants, it would > take a > > wiser sage than King Solomon himself, to decide now between fact > and > > fiction." As we are all familiar, science is not a oracle > of "truth," > > but is a methodology (which HPB calls here "scientific induction") > for > > the seeking after truth. In her day, as in ours, scientific > theories > > are constantly in a state of evolution and constantly challenged by > > competing theories. > > > > HPB, therefore, raises the question: "What is truth?" Then > examines > > different, so called, sources of "truth": > > 1. Seership (i.e. spiritual perception) (222) > > 2. prejudicial society (i.e. popular opinion) (223) > > 3. "exact Science" (223) > > 4. Religion and theology (223) > > > > 1. Seership. HPB alludes for her example Brutus' vision of > his 'evil > > genius" promising to "meet him [and defeat his army] in the planes > of > > Philippi" (BCW III:222-23). > > she points out that while a true vision to Brutus, it was "but a > dream > > to his slaves." She further points out that the insights of > Columbus > > (an antipodal continent) and Galileo (the heliocentric system) were > > denied until proven. Actually HPB's example of Columbus is > technically > > a poor choice, since Columbus was apparently ignorant of an > antipodal > > continent (e.g. America) and thought he had landed in India. > However, > > she does make her point. > > > > 2. Prejudicial society. She asks: "Are we to abandon it [i.e. > truth] > > to the mercy and judgment of a prejudiced society constantly caught > > trying to subvert that which it does not understand; ever seeking > to > > transform sham and hypocrisy into synonyms of 'propriety' and > > 'respectability'?" I think her argument speaks for itself for > those who > > will hear. > > > > 3. Exact science: She here raises the argument about changing > > hypothesis. However, she also warns that scientists, being human, > also > > have their "...prejudice and preconception" as any other mortals > (223). > > > > 4. Religion and theology: She dismisses with "...her 'seventy- > times > > seven' sects, each claiming and none proving its right to the claim > of > > truth..." and concludes: "...we decline accepting anything on > faith" > > (224). > > > > > > This discussion of truth open into the consequent policy of the > editors > > of The Theosophist. That the Editors are not responsible for > opinions > > of the contributors. HPB concludes that "no mortal man is > infallible, > > nor claiming that privilege for ourselves, we open our columns to > the > > discussion of every view and opinion, provided is is not proved > > absolutely supernatural." > > > > HPB, at this point distinguishes opinion (society), hypothesis > > (science), and faith (religion) from fact. She states: "Fact is > the > > only tribunal we submit to and recognize it without appeal. And > before > > that tribunal a Tyndall and an ignoramus stand on a perfect par." > In > > other words, no one has a monopoly on truth because of their > education > > or scientific training. > > > > Therefore, HPB is paving the way to make the point that we can > discern > > facts by contrasting ideas. She writes: "Contrast alone can enable > us > > to appreciate things in their own right value and unless a judge > > compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct > > decision." Notice that HPB is not guaranteeing a correct > decision. She > > has previously discussed human shortcomings such a prejudice, which > > bring her quote from Horace: "Dum vitant stuli vitia, in contraria > > current (while striving to shun one vice, fool run to its > opposite)" > > (225). Basically she is asking her critics to keep an open mind > and > > hear all sides of the story. > > > > From here, she enters into discussing the consequences of being > closed > > minded, i.e. "dogmatic" and argues: > > > > "For one man to demand from another that he shall believe like > himself, > > whether in a question of religion or science is supremely unjust > and > > despotic. Besides, it is absurd. For it amounts to exacting that > the > > brains of the convert, his organs of perception, his whole > organization, > > in short, be reconstructed precisely on the model of that of his > > teacher, and that he shall have the same temperament and mental > > faculties as the other has....Mental slavery is the worst of all > > slaveries." > > > > A solid warning against cult-like behavior where everyone conforms > to > > the thinking of the leader. > > > > Her final argument, answering the criticism that the editors do not > > sufficiently exercise their "editorial right of selection." This > she > > denies. Rather, she says that the editors do not control and > censor The > > Theosophist in such a way as to force their opinions "for > recognition > > upon others" (226). She argues: > > > > "To follow every article from a contributor with a Editor's Note > > correcting "his erroneous ideas" would amount to turning our > strictly > > impartial journal into a sectarian organ. We decline such an > office of > > 'Sir Oracle'" (226). > > > > Further, the defines the Theosophical Society, which The > Theosophist > > represents: "an absolute and uncompromising Republic of Conscience, > > preoccupation and narrow-mindedness is science and philosophy have > no > > room in it." She denounces this as much much "as dogmatism and > bigotry > > in theology" (226). > > > > > > Her theme here is one which she often repeats to her critics-- that > she > > hold truth itself over the various beliefs systems of the world, > whether > > they be scientific, philosophical or religious. She aptly closes > by > > quoting Hugo: "In the name of RELIGION we protest against all and > every > > religion!" > > > > Conclusion. While HPB, in the article, was interested in answering > her > > critics, it is also evident that she was also using her answers as > an > > opportunity to address her larger reading audience concerning the > more > > important and underlying questions of truth, fact, dogmatism, > freedom of > > thought, and open mindedness in light of the pitfalls and errors we > can > > fall into in our quest for truth. It is also interesting to note > how > > carefully HPB avoided putting the spotlight upon herself as an > authority > > to be followed, and skillfully made it known that her position as > Editor > > did not include the forcing of her opinions upon others. This is > a > > position she took through her life, variously as Editor, author and > > teacher, and is evident in her writing and teaching style when she > > appeals to reason (as opposed to authority) by arguing her points > based > > upon what is known. She was careful to write from a reference > within our > > verifiable experiencs. Even when she wrote about other planes, > globes, > > etc. she argued from the world's sacred texts, which were, to a > greater > > or lessor extent, available for verification. > > > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anand Gholap wrote: > > > > >Here is Blavatsky's wrong statement. > > >". . . Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their > > >right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides > > >he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky, The > > >Theosophist, Volume II, July, 1881, p. 218; reprinted in H.P.B.'s > > >Collected Writings, Volume III, p. 225. > > > > > >Intuition knows truth directly. Intuition does not require > comparison > > >with other notes and it does not require hearing of both sides. > Above > > >quotation of Blavatsky is just one example of how wrong statements > > >Blavatsky made. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kay_ziatz@yahoo.com Wed Jun 01 02:03:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kay_ziatz@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1586 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 09:03:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 09:03:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.24) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 09:03:34 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 09:03:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.80] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 09:03:25 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:03:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 425 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.24 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.149.244.163 From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" Subject: Re: : : Question for Occultists -- What is sorcery ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=211651205; y=6B93Rc7cyd7s6lyFOQ_gnJDCEafG7jlwGj2hwxTrNPEFcsIf X-Yahoo-Profile: kay_ziatz > How is it that occult powers differ from "sorcery" only > through motive? I think no. It's white & black magic differ by motive. Occultism differs from sorcery by knowledge. Occultist knows the forces and principles which he sets to work while a sorcerer doesn't. He only knows some methods which give known results and works mechanically in large extent, or through association with spirits, animals and elementals. From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jun 01 02:24:58 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25721 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 09:24:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 09:24:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 09:24:57 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.91] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DdPRz-0005Ky-IN; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 05:23:52 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 02:23:39 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c5668b$9d47e8b0$5bd8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79a6065076a10be310330e5acca2a4b502350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: ADEPTS AND MODERN SCIENCE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=LvS9gt_3a9Z4cgdPWFhKa2Yih4Zvn-xhRYjP0NHbjxnYoQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 June 1 2005 Dear Friends: This is presented as a result of recent discussions. Did They know the INTERNET was coming ? Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D THE ADEPTS AND MODERN SCIENCE Modern science is a bugbear for many a good Theosophist, causing him to hid= e his real opinions for fear they should conflict with science. But the latte= r is an unstable quantity, always shifting its ground, although never devoid of an overbearing assurance, even when it takes back what it had previously asserted.=20 The views of scientific men have frequently been brought forward as a stron= g objection to the possibility of the existence of Adepts, Masters, Mahatmas, perfected men who have a complete knowledge of all that modern science is endeavoring to discover. Many trembling members of the Society, who do not doubt the Masters and their powers, would fain have those beings make their peace with science, so that the views of nature and man put forward by the Mahatmas might coincide with the ideas of modern investigators. It will be profitable to try to discover what is the attitude of the Adepts towards modern science. The question was raised quite early in the history of the Society in the correspondence which Mr. Sinnett had with the Adept K. H. in India, and there is in the answers published by Mr. Sinnett in the Occult World enough to indicate clearly what is the attitude of such beings to modern science. That book will often have to be referred to in future years, because the letters given in its pages are valuable in more senses than has been thought; they ought to be studied by every member of the Society, and the ideas contained therein made a part of our mental furniture. It is evident from the remarks made in the Occult World that the persons to whom the letters were written had a high respect for modern science; that they would have liked to see science convinced of the machinery of the occult Cosmos, with all that that implies; that they thought if modern scientific men could be convinced by extraordinary phenomena or otherwise about the Masters and Theosophy, very beneficial results to the Society would follow.=20 There can be no doubt that if such a convincing were possible the results would have followed, but the hope of convincing our scientists seemed vain, because no way exists to alter the attitude of materialistic modern science except by a complete reform in its methods and theories. This would be a bringing back of ancient thought, and not agreeable to modern men.=20 To pander in any way to science would be impossible to the Masters. They hold the position that if the rules and conclusions of nineteenth century science differ from those of the Lodge of the Brothers, then so much the worse for modern conclusions, as they must all be revised in the future. Th= e radical difference between occult and modern materialistic science is that the former has philanthropy as its basis, whereas the latter has no such basis. Let us now see what can be discovered from the letters written by K.H. to Mr. Sinnett and another. BRING THE "LONDON TIMES" TO India TODAY ! Mr. Sinnett writes, "The idea I had especially in my mind when I wrote the letter above referred to was that, of all tests of phenomena one could wish for, the bes= t would be the production in our presence in India of a copy of the London Times of that day's date.=20 With such a piece of evidence in my hand, I argued, I would undertake to convert everybody in Simla who was capable of linking two idea= s together, to a belief in the possibility of obtaining by occult agency physical results which were beyond the control of modern science." To this he received a reply from K.H., who said: "Precisely because the test of the London newspaper would close the mouths of the sceptics it is inadmissible. See it in what light you will, the world is yet in its first stage of disenthralment, hence unprepared. . = . . But as on the one hand science would find itself unable in its present state to account for the wonders given in its name, and on the other the ignorant masses would still be left to view the phenomenon in the light of = a miracle, every one who would be thus made a witness to the occurrence would be thrown off his balance and the result would be deplorable. In this is the first indication of the philanthropic basis, although later it is definitely stated. For here we see that the Adepts would not do that which might result in the mental confusion of so many persons as are included in "ignorant masses." He then goes on to say: Were we to accede to your desires, know you really what consequence would follow in the trail of success? The inexorable shadow which follows all human innovations moves on, yet few are they who are ever conscious of its approach and dangers. What are they then to expect who would offer to the world an innovation which, owing to human ignorance, if believed in wil= l surely be attributed to those dark agencies that two-thirds of humanity believe in and dread as yet?" Here again we see that Adepts will not do that which, however agreeable to science, extraordinary and interesting in itself, might result in causing the masses once more to consider that they had proof of the agency of devil= s or other dreaded unseen beings.=20 The object of the Adepts being to increase the knowledge of the greater number and to destroy dogmatism with superstition, they will not do that which would in any way tend to defeat what they have in view. In the letter quoted from, the Adept then goes on to show that the number of persons free from ignorant prejudice and religious bigotry is still very small.=20 It is very true that such an extraordinary thing as the production of the Times in India across several thousand miles of ocean might convince even hundreds of scientific men of the possibility of this being done by a knowledge of law, but their belief would have but little effect on the immense masses of uneducated persons in the West who are still bound up in religious bigotry and prejudice.=20 The Adept hints that "the inexorable shadow that follows all human innovations" would be a sudden blazing forth again of ignorant superstition among the masses, which, gaining force, and sweeping all other men along in the immense current thus generated, the very purpose of the phenomenon woul= d then be negatived.=20 On this the Adept writes a little further on, "As for human nature in general, it is the same now as it was a million years ago, prejudice based upon selfishness, a general unwillingnes= s to give up an established order of things for new modes of life and thought - and occult study requires all that and much more - proud and stubborn resistance to truth if it but upsets the previous notion of things: such ar= e the characteristics of the age. However successful, the danger would be growing proportionately with success, that is, the danger would grow in proportion to the success of the phenomenon produced. "No choice would soon remain but to go on, ever crescendo, or to fall, in this endless struggle with prejudice and ignorance, killed by your own weapons. Test after test would be required and would have to be furnished; every subsequent phenomenon expected to be more marvelous than the preceding one. Your daily remark is that one cannot be expected to believe unless he becomes an eye-witness. Would the lifetime of a man suffice to satisfy the whole world of skeptics? . . . In common with many you blame us for our great secrecy.=20 "Yet we know something of human nature, for the experience of long centuries, aye of ages, has taught us. And we know that so long as science has anything to learn, and a shadow of religious dogmatism lingers in the hearts of the multitudes, the world's prejudices have to be conquered step by step, not at a rush." These simple remarks are philosophical, historically accurate, and perfectl= y true. All spiritualistic mediums know that their visitors require test afte= r test. Even the dabbler in psychic matters is aware that his audience or his friends require a constant increase of phenomena and results, and every earnest student of occultism is aware of the fact that in his own circle there are fifty unbelievers to one believer, and that the believers require that they shall see the same thing over again that others report. Proceeding with this matter to another letter, the Adept says: "We will be at cross purposes in our correspondence until it has been made entirely plain that occult science has its own methods of researc= h as fixed and arbitrary as the methods of its antithesis, physical science, are in their way. If the latter has its dicta, so also has the former." He then goes on to show that the person desiring to know their science must abide by their rules, and taking his correspondent as an illustration, he says: "You seek all this, and yet, as you say yourself, hitherto you have not found sufficient reasons to even give up your modes of life, directly hostile to such communication." This means of course that scientific men as well as other inquirers must conform to the rules of occult science if they wish to know it, and must themselves change their modes of thought and action.=20 MOTIVE He then goes on to analyze the motives of his correspondent, and these motives would be the same as those impelling science to investigate. They are described to be the desire to have positive proofs of forces in nature unknown to science, the hope to appropriate them, the wish to demonstrate their existence to some others in the West, the ability to contemplate future life as an objective reality built upon knowledge and not faith, and to learn the truth about the Lodge and the Brothers. These motives, he says= , are selfish from the standpoint of the Adepts, and this again emphasizes th= e philanthropy behind occult science. The motives are selfish because, as he says: "The highest aspiration for the welfare of humanity become tainted with selfishness if in the mind of the philanthropist there lurks a shadow of a desire for self-benefit, or a tendency to do injustice, even where these exist unconsciously to himself. Yet you have ever discussed but to pu= t down the idea of a universal brotherhood, questioned its usefulness, and advised to remodel the Theosophical Society on the principle of a college for the special study of occultism." The Adept makes it very clear that such a proposition could not be entertained, showing once more that the Brotherhood, and not the study of secret laws of nature, is the real object the inner Lodge has in view. Brotherhood as an object is the highest philanthropy, and especially so whe= n connected with science. In another letter, written after consultation with much higher Adepts, who have never been mentioned and who are utterly unknown even to Theosophists, being too high to be encountered, he takes up the same subject, saying, "In conformity with exact science you define but one cosmic energy, and see no difference between the energy expended by the traveller who pushes aside the bush that obstructs his path and the scientific experimenter who expends an equal amount of energy in setting the pendulum in motion. We do; for we know there is a world of difference between the two.=20 "The one uselessly dissipates and scatters force; the other concentrates and stores it; and here please understand that I do not refer to the relative utility of the two, as one might imagine, but only to the fact that in the one case there is brute force flung out without any transmutation of that brute energy into the higher potential form of spiritual dynamics, and in the other there is just that. . . .=20 "Now for us poor unknown philanthropists no fact of either of these sciences is interesting except in the degree of its potentiality for moral results, and in the ratio of its usefulness to mankind. And what, in its proud isolation, can be more utterly indifferent to every one and everything, or more bound to nothing but the selfish requisites for its advancement, than this materialistic science of fact?=20 "May I ask, then, what have the laws of Faraday, Tyndall, or others to do with philanthropy in their abstract relations with humanity, viewed a= s an intelligent whole? What care they for man as an isolated atom of this great and harmonious whole, even though they may be sometimes of practical use to him?=20 COSMIC ENERGY "Cosmic energy is something eternal and incessant; matter is indestructible: and there stand the scientific facts. Doubt them and you ar= e an ignoramus; deny them, a dangerous lunatic, a bigot: pretend to improve upon the theories, an impertinent charlatan. And yet even these scientific facts never suggested any proof to the world of experimenters that nature consciously prefers that matter should be indestructible under organic rather than inorganic forms, and that she works slowly but incessantly towards the realization of this object - the evolution of conscious life ou= t of unconscious material. . . .=20 Still less does exact science perceive that while the building ant, the busy bee, the nidifacient bird, accumulates each in its own humble way as much cosmic energy in its potential form as a Hayden, a Plato, or a ploughman turning his furrow. . . . The hunter who kills game for his pleasure or profit, the positivist who applies his intellect to proving tha= t plus multiplied by plus equals minus, are wasting and scattering energy no less than the tiger which springs upon its prey. They all rob nature instea= d of enriching her, and will all in the degree of their intelligence find themselves accountable. . . .=20 "Exact experimental science has nothing to do with morality, virtue, philanthropy - therefore can make no claim upon our help until it blends itself with metaphysics. Being a cold classification of facts outside of man, and existing before and after him, her domain of usefulness ceases for us at the outer boundary of these facts; and whatever the inferences and results for humanity from the materials acquired by her method, she little cares.=20 "Therefore as our sphere lies entirely outside of hers, - as far as the path of Uranus is outside the earth's, - we distinctly refuse to be broken on any wheel of her construction. . . . The truths and mysteries of Occultism constitute, indeed, a body of the highest spiritual importance, a= t once profound and practical for the world at-large, yet it is not as an addition to the tangled mass of theory or speculation that they are being given to you, but for their practical bearing on the interests of mankind." We have in these extracts a clear outline of the exact position of the Adepts towards modern science, together with the statement of the reasons why they do not come forth by astounding phenomena to convince the world of their existence.=20 The reason for the refusal is that the world is not ready, but is in such a condition that the end would be obstructed and damage be the result. Their attitude to modern science is that they accept the facts of science whereve= r they prove the truths of Occultism, but they consider modern science to be materialistic and also devoid of philanthropy.=20 This we must admit to be the case, and as the student who has had experienc= e in these matters knows for himself that the Adepts have the truth and possess a knowledge of nature's laws, he approves of their refusing to come down to science and of their demand that science must rise to them. He also knows that in the course of the cycles the mass of men will have been educated and developed to such a position that a new school, at once religious and scientific, will have possession of the earth and rule among all men who possess civilization. WILLIAM Q. JUDGE Path, August, 1893 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D COPIED BY Dallas =20 From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Wed Jun 01 02:28:48 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13056 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 09:28:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 09:28:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.41) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 09:28:48 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 09:28:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.91] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 09:28:47 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:28:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <429A5A92.4080805@charter.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1745 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.41 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 203.187.209.126 From: "Anand Gholap" Subject: Re:Those who study Blavatsky's writing become fundamentalists X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566; y=ieCBqimy1i8Ut0tCF_3pI6d5vtp33td1wqu3pNEIwbo7j48wmm9IOZY X-Yahoo-Profile: anandgholap_net Jerry, What you are suggesting is whole world should change and all people in it should make themselves suitable for reading Blavatsky's writing. This expectation is not right. Writer must write in a way that people would understand what he writes and lifts them from their level. Blavatsky failed to write in such manner and she admitted it. Another thing is Master also said that " people want lucid explanation which appears to her (HPB) superfluous" Ordinary people don't understand her writing. Scholars consider it bad way of presentation. So definitely fault is in Blavatsky's writing. You said you could appreciate Leadbeater's writing because you had already seen many things about what he wrote. What things did you see? I have seen many people who studied Blavatsky's writing lost common sense, became dogmatic and fundamentalist, intolerant towards others and even were filled with intense hatred. This is greatest failure of any writer on spiritual subject. I saw many students of Besant and Leadbeater who had very fine, sensitive emotional nature and many were working unselfishly for helping others. This is the change in heart that writing on occultism must produce and AB, CWL succeeded in that very well. It is true that Blavatsky mostly commented writings on other philosophers, religions etc. But most people are not interested in studying old religions and writings of old philosophers, even less on commentaries on those. So for most people value of her writing is neg legible. Leadbeater explains about things which large number of people want to know in language they understand. Marvellous thing is he explains most metaphysical concepts in language ordinary reader understands. Anand Gholap From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jun 01 02:30:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16014 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 09:30:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 09:30:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 09:30:08 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.91] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DdPY2-0006Iy-15; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 05:30:04 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 02:29:56 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c5668c$7ce90df0$5bd8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7938155755c1524ef0bbb91d8447ac8641350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES IN LIFE X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=meKJVF9cMdTSNMcJ8XmCITAzL9KBL0rccWWesfhyWmz8nQ X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 =09=09 June 1 2005 How does Karma work, if it works at all ? Here are some thought-provoking ideas. Best wishes, Dallas ------------------------------------------------------------------ ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES IN LIFE That view of one's Karma which leads to a bewailing of the unkind fate whic= h has kept advantages in life away from us, is a mistaken estimate of what is good and what is not good for the soul. It is quite true that we may often find persons surrounded with great advantages but who make no corresponding use of them or pay but little regard to them. But this very fact in itself goes to show that the so-called advantageous position in life is really not good nor fortunate in the true and inner meaning of those words.=20 The fortunate one has money and teachers, ability, and means to travel and fill the surroundings with works of art, with music and with ease. But thes= e are like the tropical airs that enervate the body; these enervate the character instead of building it up. They do not in themselves tend to the acquirement of any virtue whatever but rather to the opposite by reason of the constant steeping of the senses in the subtle essences of the sensuous world. They are like sweet things which, being swallowed in quantities, tur= n to acids in the inside of the body. Thus they can be seen to be the opposit= e of good Karma. What then is good Karma and what bad? The all embracing and sufficient answer is this: Good Karma is that kind which the Ego desires and requires; bad, that which the Ego neither desires nor requires. And in this the Ego, being guided and controlled by law, by justice, by the necessities of upward evolution, and not by fancy or selfishness or revenge or ambition, is sure to choose the earthly habitation that is most likely, out of all possible of selection, to give a Karma for the real advantage in the end. In this light then, even the lazy, indifferent life of one born rich as well as that of one born low and wicked is right. When we, from this plane, inquire into the matter, we see that the "advantages" which one would seek were he looking for the strengthening of character, the unloosing of soul force and energy, would be called by the selfish and personal world "disadvantages." Struggle is needed for the gaining of strength; buffeting adverse eras is for the gaining of depth; meagre opportunities may be used for acquiring fortitude; poverty should breed generosity. The middle ground in all this, and not the extreme, is what we speak of. To be born with the disadvantage of drunken, diseased parents, in the criminal portion of the community, is a punishment which constitutes a wait on the road of evolution.=20 It is a necessity generally because the Ego has drawn about itself in a former life some tendencies which cannot be eliminated in any other way. Bu= t we should not forget that sometimes, often in the grand total, a pure, powerful Ego incarnates in just such awful surroundings, remaining good and pure all the time, and staying there for the purpose of uplifting and helping others. But to be born in extreme poverty is not a disadvantage. Jesus said well when, repeating what many a sage had said before, he described the difficulty experienced by the rich man in entering heaven. If we look at life from the narrow point of view of those who say there is but one earth and after it either eternal heaven or hell, then poverty will be regarded a= s a great disadvantage and something to be avoided.=20 But seeing that we have many lives to live, and that they will give us all needed opportunity for building up character, we must admit that poverty is not, in itself, necessarily bad Karma. Poverty has no natural tendency to engender selfishness, but wealth requires it. A sojourn for everyone in a body born to all the pains, deprivations and miseries of modern poverty, is good and just. Inasmuch as the present state of civilization with all its horrors of poverty, of crime, of disease, of wrong relations almost everywhere, has grown out of the past, in which we were workers, it is just that we should experience it all at some point in our career.=20 If some person who now pays no heed to the misery of men and women should next life be plunged into one of the slums of our cities for rebirth, it would imprint on the soul the misery of such a situation.=20 This would lead later on to compassion and care for others. For, unless we experience the effects of a state of life we cannot understand or appreciat= e it from a mere description. The personal part involved in this may not like it as a future prospect, but if the Ego decides that the next personality shall be there then all will be an advantage and not a disadvantage. If we look at the field of operation in us of the so-called advantages of opportunity, money, travel and teachers we see at once that it all has to d= o with the brain and nothing else.=20 Languages, arch=E6ology, music, satiating sight with beauty, eating the fin= est food, wearing the best clothes, traveling to many places and thus infinitel= y varying impressions on ear and eye; all these begin and end in the brain an= d not in the soul or character.=20 As the brain is a portion of the unstable, fleeting body the whole phantasmagoria disappears from view and use when the note of death sends it= s awful vibration through the physical form and drives out the inhabitant.=20 The wonderful central master-ganglion disintegrates, and nothing at all is left but some faint aromas here and there depending on the actual love within for any one pursuit or image or sensation. Nothing left of it all bu= t a few tendencies-- skandhas , not of the very best. The advantages then tur= n out in the end to be disadvantages altogether.=20 But imagine the same brain and body not in places of ease, struggling for a good part of life, doing their duty and not in a position to please the senses: this experience will burn in, stamp upon, carve into the character, more energy, more power and more fortitude. It is thus through the ages tha= t great characters are made. The other mode is the mode of the humdrum averag= e which is nothing after all, as yet, but an animal. WILLIAM Q. JUDGE Path , July, 1895 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D COPIED BY Dallas =20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jun 01 02:42:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79587 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 09:42:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 09:42:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.68) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 09:42:38 -0000 Received: from [209.179.216.91] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth08.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DdPkB-00089l-H0; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 05:42:37 -0400 To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 02:42:29 -0700 Message-ID: <001101c5668e$3d9a51c0$5bd8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec798c6816bc4666e519fda1b61705c8d19f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: THEOSOPHICAL PROPHECY X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=XdyBTReuYd_wdc8SPcVSixhgs2RKdXgsFUcfQuGvE5HW7w X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 May 31 2005 Do prophecies work? ANOTHER THEOSOPHICAL PROPHECY IN the first number of THE PATH was inserted a prophecy made from certain books in India called Nadigrandhams, respecting the Society. This called forth from the N.Y. Sun, that model of journalism, a long tirad= e about the superficial knowledge which it claims pervades the Society on the subject of oriental philosophy. Unfortunately for the learned editorial writer in that paper, he never before heard of Nadigrandhams, which are almost as common in India as the Sun is here, nor does he appear to know what a Nadi may be, nor a Grandham, either. But without trying to drag the daily press of this country into the path of oriental knowledge, we will proceed to record another prophecy or two. The first will seem rather bold, but is placed far enough in the future to give it some value as a test. It is this:--The Sanscrit language will one day be again the language used by man upon this earth, first in science and in metaphysics, and later on in common life. Even in the lifetime of the Sun's witty writer, he will see the terms now preserved in that noblest of languages creeping into the literature and the press of the day, cropping u= p in reviews, appearing in various books and treatises, until even such men a= s he will begin perhaps to feel that they all along had been ignorantly talking of "thought" when they meant "cerebration," and of "philosophy" whe= n they meant "philology," and that they had been airing a superficial knowledge gained from cyclop=E6dias of the mere lower powers of intellect, when in fact they were totally ignorant of what is really elementary knowledge.=20 So this new language cannot be English, not even the English acquired by th= e reporter of daily papers who ascends fortuitously to the editorial rooms--but will be one which is scientific in all that makes a language, an= d has been enriched by ages of study of metaphysics and the true science. The secondary prophecy is nearer our day, and may be interesting.--It is based upon cyclic changes. This is a period of such a change, and we refer to the columns of the N. Y. Sun of the time when the famous brilliant sunsets were chronicled and discussed not long ago for the same prognostication. No matter about dates; they are not to be given; but facts may be. This glorious country, free as it is, will not long be calm: Unrest is the word for this cycle. The people will rise. For what, who can tell? The statesman who can see for what the uprising will be might take measures to counteract. But all your measures can not turn back the iron will of fate. And even the City of New York will not be able to point its finger at Cincinnati and St. Louis.=20 Let those whose ears can hear the whispers, and the noise of the gathering clouds, of the future, take notice; let them read, if they know how, the physiognomy of the United States, whereon the mighty hand of nature has traced the furrows to indicate the character of the moral storms that will pursue their course no matter what the legislation may be. But enough. Theosophists can go on unmoved, for they know that as Krishna said to Arjuna, these bodies are not the real man, and that "no one has ever been non-existent nor shall any of us ever cease to exist." Path, May, 1886 ------------------------------------------------------- ARCHAEOLOGY: Any more along these lines? AN ANCIENT TELEPHONE It has been the custom of many people to belittle the ancients by assuming that they knew but little of mechanics, certainly not so much as we do. The builders of the pyramids have been described by modern guessers as making their calculations and carrying on the most wonderful engineering operation= s with the aid of pools of water for obtaining levels and star angles: they could not, it was assumed, have instruments except the most crude.=20 So also the old Chinese were mere rude workmen, although it is well known that they discovered the precession of the equinoxes over 2,000 years ago. Of late, evidence has been slowly coming out that tends to show the ancient= s as perhaps having as much, if not more, than we have. So the following from the New York Evening Sun, an influential daily paper, will be of interest. It says, on May 31, 1894: An English officer by the name of Harrington has discovered in India a working telephone between two native temples which stand over a mile apart. The testimony of the Hindus, which, it is said, is backed up by documentary proof, shows that the system has been in operation for over 2,000 years. Scientists engaged in excavating the ruins of ancient Egyptian temples have repeatedly found unmistakable evidence of wire communication between some o= f the temples of the earlier Egyptian dynasties. It will probably be found, in the course of time, that the oft-repeated statements of H. P. Blavatsky that the ancients had all of our arts and mechanical devices were true. She asserted that they had flying machines.=20 In Buddhist books is a story of Buddha which refers to a flying machine or mechanical bird used in a former life of the Lord, and Indian tradition speaks also of air walking machines. Reading this item in the newspaper reminds me too of a conversation I had with H. P. Blavatsky in New York before the phonograph came out, in which she said that some Indian friends of hers had a machine by which they spoke with each other over distances of miles with great ease.=20 Perhaps when the great West is convinced that the old Aryans had mechanical contrivances equaling our own, it will be ready to lead a readier ear than now to the philosophies the East has so long held in keeping. Path, July, 1894 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I wonder? Dallas =20 From krishtar_a@brturbo.com.br Wed Jun 01 05:30:56 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90728 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 12:30:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 12:30:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4.brturbo.com.br) (200.199.201.180) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 12:30:55 -0000 Received: from versus (unknown [201.14.175.201]) by smtp4.brturbo.com.br (Postfix) with SMTP id D76CE33EA2 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:29:50 -0300 (BRT) Message-ID: <003a01c566a5$9ad03320$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:29:49 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: 200.199.201.180 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:Those who study Blavatsky's writing become fundamentalists X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=213301758; y=eS0uy0z82aC8lrO9NVYG670zVtyJlr_myE6wYFINI3WdeiDvew X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "...But most people are not interested in studying old religions and writings of old philosophers, even less on commentaries on those. So for most people value of her writing is neg legible. .." Is Anand included in this kind of people? Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: Anand Gholap To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:28 AM Subject: Theos-World Re:Those who study Blavatsky's writing become fundamentalists Jerry, What you are suggesting is whole world should change and all people in it should make themselves suitable for reading Blavatsky's writing. This expectation is not right. Writer must write in a way that people would understand what he writes and lifts them from their level. Blavatsky failed to write in such manner and she admitted it. Another thing is Master also said that " people want lucid explanation which appears to her (HPB) superfluous" Ordinary people don't understand her writing. Scholars consider it bad way of presentation. So definitely fault is in Blavatsky's writing. You said you could appreciate Leadbeater's writing because you had already seen many things about what he wrote. What things did you see? I have seen many people who studied Blavatsky's writing lost common sense, became dogmatic and fundamentalist, intolerant towards others and even were filled with intense hatred. This is greatest failure of any writer on spiritual subject. I saw many students of Besant and Leadbeater who had very fine, sensitive emotional nature and many were working unselfishly for helping others. This is the change in heart that writing on occultism must produce and AB, CWL succeeded in that very well. It is true that Blavatsky mostly commented writings on other philosophers, religions etc. But most people are not interested in studying old religions and writings of old philosophers, even less on commentaries on those. So for most people value of her writing is neg legible. Leadbeater explains about things which large number of people want to know in language they understand. Marvellous thing is he explains most metaphysical concepts in language ordinary reader understands. Anand Gholap Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com.br Wed Jun 01 05:32:09 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2745 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 12:32:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 12:32:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com.br) (200.199.201.158) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 12:32:07 -0000 Received: from versus (unknown [201.14.175.201]) by smtp2.brturbo.com.br (Postfix) with SMTP id A9F853412 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:31:43 -0300 (BRT) Message-ID: <004101c566a5$de0f2a60$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:31:42 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: 200.199.201.158 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:Those who study Blavatsky's writing become fundamentalists X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=213301758; y=juK7XNCeWmqxw9Vvhs3lxSrwQCIg6mrxYl9eSbJ2z6w-VEw1Og X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "...I have seen many people who studied Blavatsky's writing lost common sense, became dogmatic and fundamentalist, intolerant towards others and even were filled with intense hatred. This is greatest failure of any writer on spiritual subject." And like what is doing Anand here in the list ? Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: Anand Gholap To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:28 AM Subject: Theos-World Re:Those who study Blavatsky's writing become fundamentalists Jerry, What you are suggesting is whole world should change and all people in it should make themselves suitable for reading Blavatsky's writing. This expectation is not right. Writer must write in a way that people would understand what he writes and lifts them from their level. Blavatsky failed to write in such manner and she admitted it. Another thing is Master also said that " people want lucid explanation which appears to her (HPB) superfluous" Ordinary people don't understand her writing. Scholars consider it bad way of presentation. So definitely fault is in Blavatsky's writing. You said you could appreciate Leadbeater's writing because you had already seen many things about what he wrote. What things did you see? I have seen many people who studied Blavatsky's writing lost common sense, became dogmatic and fundamentalist, intolerant towards others and even were filled with intense hatred. This is greatest failure of any writer on spiritual subject. I saw many students of Besant and Leadbeater who had very fine, sensitive emotional nature and many were working unselfishly for helping others. This is the change in heart that writing on occultism must produce and AB, CWL succeeded in that very well. It is true that Blavatsky mostly commented writings on other philosophers, religions etc. But most people are not interested in studying old religions and writings of old philosophers, even less on commentaries on those. So for most people value of her writing is neg legible. Leadbeater explains about things which large number of people want to know in language they understand. Marvellous thing is he explains most metaphysical concepts in language ordinary reader understands. Anand Gholap Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com.br Wed Jun 01 05:35:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17684 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 12:35:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 12:35:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com.br) (200.199.201.163) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 12:35:01 -0000 Received: from versus (unknown [201.14.175.201]) by smtp1.brturbo.com.br (Postfix) with SMTP id 1FFD6340B for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:34:58 -0300 (BRT) Message-ID: <004f01c566a6$51f2d440$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:34:56 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: 200.199.201.163 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:Those who study Blavatsky's writing become fundamentalists X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=213301758; y=5oABl3yR_4nceJFXE87mMx5ExQ1KSk4pFonfbCteqvPnRZjYcw X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "...Leadbeater explains about things which large number of people want to know in language they understand. Marvellous thing is he explains most metaphysical concepts in language ordinary reader understands..." Does it include writing with no attachment to ancient doctrines other than his own clairvoyance? Does it also include garbled and romantized versions of the kingdoms of nature? Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: Anand Gholap To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:28 AM Subject: Theos-World Re:Those who study Blavatsky's writing become fundamentalists Jerry, What you are suggesting is whole world should change and all people in it should make themselves suitable for reading Blavatsky's writing. This expectation is not right. Writer must write in a way that people would understand what he writes and lifts them from their level. Blavatsky failed to write in such manner and she admitted it. Another thing is Master also said that " people want lucid explanation which appears to her (HPB) superfluous" Ordinary people don't understand her writing. Scholars consider it bad way of presentation. So definitely fault is in Blavatsky's writing. You said you could appreciate Leadbeater's writing because you had already seen many things about what he wrote. What things did you see? I have seen many people who studied Blavatsky's writing lost common sense, became dogmatic and fundamentalist, intolerant towards others and even were filled with intense hatred. This is greatest failure of any writer on spiritual subject. I saw many students of Besant and Leadbeater who had very fine, sensitive emotional nature and many were working unselfishly for helping others. This is the change in heart that writing on occultism must produce and AB, CWL succeeded in that very well. It is true that Blavatsky mostly commented writings on other philosophers, religions etc. But most people are not interested in studying old religions and writings of old philosophers, even less on commentaries on those. So for most people value of her writing is neg legible. Leadbeater explains about things which large number of people want to know in language they understand. Marvellous thing is he explains most metaphysical concepts in language ordinary reader understands. Anand Gholap Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Wed Jun 01 05:42:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 23902 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 12:42:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 12:42:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com) (216.155.201.68) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 12:42:29 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.64] by n3.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 12:41:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by mailer1.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 12:41:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.70] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 12:41:07 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:41:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 419 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.68 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 59.167.27.190 From: "prmoliveira" Subject: Theosophy and Islam X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617; y=i_J5Qo7kDsaooHNQBUyiBASQiRow1ep0UmB0SFSlCMKwZ-VxRn4 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira Recently the view was aired here, I think by Erica and Morten, that more effort should be done to disseminate theosophical teachings in the Middle-East. Below is a small contribution. While the text was composed in Australia, it was checked by two Quranic scholars in Karachi. It was based on a number of articles from old issues of "The Theosophist". (PO) http://www.austheos.org.au/topics/theosophy-islam.htm From krishtar_a@brturbo.com.br Wed Jun 01 05:47:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com.br X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84092 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 12:47:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 12:47:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com.br) (200.199.201.158) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 12:47:46 -0000 Received: from versus (unknown [201.11.109.176]) by smtp2.brturbo.com.br (Postfix) with SMTP id 8AD473410 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:46:42 -0300 (BRT) Message-ID: <005f01c566a7$f5d0ca80$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:46:41 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Originating-IP: 200.199.201.158 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "krishtar" Subject: anand as example - Those who study Blavatsky's writing become fundamentalists X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=213301758; y=8S3ALPnSk6xMtytVNLLttR1W8fRVy7vgA9It95ktuhWtKFbj_Q X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "...I saw many students of Besant and Leadbeater who had very fine, sensitive emotional nature and many were working unselfishly for helping others. This is the change in heart that writing on occultism must produce and AB, CWL succeeded in that very well. .." "...But most people are not interested in studying old religions and writings of old philosophers, even less on commentaries on those..." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mostly if not any good people are not product of good books, but people can become better beings by reading good books and applying the knowledge from the books turning it into wisdom as consequence. I am still finding good reasons to start reading CWL or AB again but can I find any good examples of the adjectives you mentioned above in your writings below? Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: Anand Gholap To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:28 AM Subject: Theos-World Re:Those who study Blavatsky's writing become fundamentalists Jerry, What you are suggesting is whole world should change and all people in it should make themselves suitable for reading Blavatsky's writing. This expectation is not right. Writer must write in a way that people would understand what he writes and lifts them from their level. Blavatsky failed to write in such manner and she admitted it. Another thing is Master also said that " people want lucid explanation which appears to her (HPB) superfluous" Ordinary people don't understand her writing. Scholars consider it bad way of presentation. So definitely fault is in Blavatsky's writing. You said you could appreciate Leadbeater's writing because you had already seen many things about what he wrote. What things did you see? I have seen many people who studied Blavatsky's writing lost common sense, became dogmatic and fundamentalist, intolerant towards others and even were filled with intense hatred. This is greatest failure of any writer on spiritual subject. I saw many students of Besant and Leadbeater who had very fine, sensitive emotional nature and many were working unselfishly for helping others. This is the change in heart that writing on occultism must produce and AB, CWL succeeded in that very well. It is true that Blavatsky mostly commented writings on other philosophers, religions etc. But most people are not interested in studying old religions and writings of old philosophers, even less on commentaries on those. So for most people value of her writing is neg legible. Leadbeater explains about things which large number of people want to know in language they understand. Marvellous thing is he explains most metaphysical concepts in language ordinary reader understands. Anand Gholap Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Wed Jun 01 06:20:20 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13633 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 13:20:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 13:20:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.55) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 13:20:12 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n26.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 13:17:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.83] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 13:17:42 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 13:17:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5131 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.55 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 166.67.150.240 From: "kpauljohnson" Subject: Bullying in service to powerful institutions (reply to Nigel) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729; y=EC0d-7ZiRx2mHqTQtkXKf4eNv0VJWqb-ia0Ia2tUN-RJlxKFS3DY X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Dear Nigel, Thanks for following up on my remarks. Nothing you say strikes me as incorrect, exactly, but it presents only one side of the equation, and the weaker side at that (at least with reference to the situations in US political discourse and Theosophical historical discourse.) You wrote: > This age of postmodern relativity has brought more of a sense > of "freedom" to think and speak for ourselves. > Actually, I think not. Certainly the mainstream press in the USA has muzzled itself in service to the powers that be. Impeachment would have been mentioned thousands of times by now had a Democrat done the things done by the current administration. Much of the press has been bullied into subservience and silence. Bombast and abuse is the stock in trade of such administration supporters as Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity (you're lucky if you don't know who these guys are) and any liberal guest on their shows is subjected to relentless hostility. Meanwhile, they feature honored guests like Ann Coulter, famous for wishing that Timothy McVeigh had destroyed the New York Times building as well as the Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Every word out of her mouth is hatemongering drivel, and because she is a fervent Bush supporter she is treated as a serious pundit. The TV networks are not much better; nor are the newsmagazines. The true scandal of "Rathergate" and the Newsweek Guantanamo stories are that undeniable facts (Bush's evasion of military service and repeated abuse of the Koran as a method of torture in US prisons) were completely submerged by story lines about mistakes in details made by the news sources. Moreover, the administration might well have planted these dubious documents/sources in order to discredit the news media so that the population is totally "postmodern" in its perception of facts. At least, the administration was given an opportunity to correct these stories in advance (itself an abuse of press freedom) and failed to do so, yet mounted a ferocious campaign of denunciation once the stories came out. We are living in an age of propaganda and disinformation. That is also true in Theosophical cyberspace. > Subsequently perhaps, this has brought with it its commensurate > bedfellows, fear and insecurity, through loss of previously "safe" > boundaries from accepted "truths." > I would suggest that the 9/11 attack has had a major share in changing the tone of discourse in this country, so questioning the administration becomes "supporting the terrorists." This does seem to be fading, but another such attack would bring the effect back in greater strength. > On the one hand, this has lead the mind to modalities of resistance, defensiveness, protectionism and feelings of persecution. > "Why do they hate us?" was a mantra after 9/11. > Alternately, this has awakened the mind to untruths, deceptions and > manipulations, and a recognition of the dominance and control of > those less well informed. Yes, and there is an edge of exasperation and desperation in what alternative press we have, mostly in the blogosphere. But the real hatemongering is overwhelmingly from advocates and supporters of the administration, e.g. Michael Savage whose relentless attacks on "liberals" include wishing death on gays and lesbians. (Telling a caller to his TV show to "get AIDS and die" got him fired, but he continues to reign on talk radio.) > This has generated a sense of outrage and intolerance at this breach of "trust." > This has lead to a greater demand for truth in reporting ie; more > rigorous and accurate investigation and inferences. > > And maybe the general populace, who finally has a voice which can be > heard, uses it a little indiscriminately at times. The general population has less voice in this country than it ever has had. Even with opinion polling showing Bush's approval ratings sinking below his disapproval, the media continue their drumbeat of calling him a "popular president." > > Perhaps this combative style is the interim price we must pay for > clearing and cleansing? > No, the combative style is the method the powerful use to bully the powerless. That is true in the Theosophical world as well as the American political scene. In your admiration for Daniel's relentless attacks on powerless individuals like me, please stop to ask yourself whom he *never* attacks and *always* defends and supports. The answer: the most powerful organizational interests in the Theosophical world. Is that just happenstance? > If so, so be it. Rather this than returning to the days of blind > acceptance, blind faith and blind following. > Focusing now on the Theosophical milieu, what I experienced in the 80s and 90s was never blind acceptance, faith or following. It was an atmosphere of openminded investigation of a complicated and mixed legacy. An atmosphere of respect for alternative approaches to Theosophy. That came to an end because it ultimately was perceived as a threat to powerful individuals and institutions. Cheers, Paul From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Jun 01 07:26:59 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76534 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 14:26:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 14:26:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 14:26:57 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.113]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 55439509 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:23:11 -0500 CDT Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20050601091546.062988e0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:26:54 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000701c5668b$9d47e8b0$5bd8b3d1@DALLAS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-51DD4ECB X-DNS-Paranoid: DNS lookup didn't match (69.9.96.113)->(gbrdialin)->() X-SpamDetect: *: 1.950000 Contains 'Dear friend'=1.6,From: does not include a real name=0.3 X-NotAscii: charset=us-ascii; X-Avast: Message is clean X-Originating-IP: 69.9.90.12 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: MKR Subject: Internet X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674; y=w63AUUEQD2UM_fph6akXpj2xRPVUIvnl1HCx-hNEp4VmQR7Ja7xb0g X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 The way Internet developed was analogous to the growth of a new Race. There is a statement in one of HPB's writings that as the new emerging race grows stealthly, one day suddenly world finds the new race has overtaken the old. When Internet developed, its growth was not well known and perhaps few suspected that it would emerge in the current form in such a short period of time. One of the major benefits that the world received by this sudden growth of Internet is that the vested interests did not recognize the power of Internet and thus they did not have the time to clobber the growth by introduction of proprietary technology as well as influence the politicians to stifle the development by governmental controls and regulation. By the time Internet became widely used, it was too late; the horse was out of the barn and nothing could be done. In looking at the development of Internet, I feel that there are unmistakable signs that higher powers were behind its development. mkr At 02:23 AM 06/01/05 -0700, W.Dallas TenBroeck wrote: >June 1 2005 >Dear Friends: > This is presented as a result of recent discussions. > >Did They know the INTERNET was coming ? >Dallas -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.2 - Release Date: 05/31/05 From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Wed Jun 01 08:38:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21216 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 15:38:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 15:38:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.43) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 15:38:21 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.69.6] by n9.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 15:38:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.86] by mailer6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 15:38:14 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:38:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2803 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.43 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 166.67.150.227 From: "kpauljohnson" Subject: Stepping out of the stream of self-interest & self-centredness X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729; y=z7Ug1qbp4XyLOTGvJbiV71kQihiSmF2LjyHy7-ZI7OJ4hsnCT6RR X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "prmoliveira" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson" > wrote: > Dear Pedro, You asked: > A question for you: why is it that, at the end of the day, it is so hard to step out of the stream of self-interest and self-centredness? > and my reply, as usual influenced by a recently read book, is that this is not an inherent part of the human condition, but it is inherent in the circumstances of modern life. We are so atomized now, with so little in the way of social support networks, that people think of themselves in isolation from family, community, or nation. The book Undoing Perpetual Stress by Richard O'Connor helped me realize how unprepared we are as a species for the kinds of stresses we face daily. Here's part of the Publisher's Weekly review: According to psychotherapist O'Connor (Undoing Depression), the human brain and nervous system cannot process the constant stress that is accepted as inevitable today, resulting in an alarming rise in chronic illness, depression and anxiety. Using current mind/body research, he shows how the brain and nervous system respond to stress; how the body manifests these changes; and how negative patterns become vicious cycles of mental, emotional and physical illness. O'Connor says there are many studies implicating stress as a major factor in heart disease, diabetes, cancer and such difficult to treat conditions as chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia, but the health-care establishment hasn't been able to adequately help patients make the lifestyle modifications needed for lasting change. To that end, he suggests mindfulness techniques to help readers identify mental and emotional programming and defense mechanisms, make healthy choices and form life-affirming habits. END QUOTE Among the items I found most interesting is that several generations back, most people on the planet encountered only the same few hundred individuals in their immediate vicinity, and meeting a stranger was unusual. Today most people are constantly bombarded with a stream of new strangers, and this creates stress that manifests in a variety of diseases. Perhaps back in the "good old days" people were as constantly fretting about their own individual lives as they are now, but I think they felt much more securely embedded in a social support network and therefore were more altruistic in their thoughts and feelings. Cheers, Paul PS-- If the question was specifically directed at me, the better answer would be "because theosophical cyberspace is the only place I know of where `K. Paul Johnson' has been regularly attacked, which makes it hard to step out of that stream of self-consciousness here." From Drpsionic@aol.com Wed Jun 01 10:19:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20804 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 17:19:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 17:19:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d23.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.137) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 17:19:06 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r1.7.) id r.193.40f94fd9 (25508) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <193.40f94fd9.2fcf47fc@aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:18:52 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-Originating-IP: 205.188.139.137 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Stepping out of the stream of self-interest & self-centredness X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162; y=qNEd1rA_uTeGQMAXjQ9pvzn1S-s_TCXWhuYtgODdrku3f3FKrg X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 6/1/05 10:41:50 AM Central Daylight Time, kpauljohnson@yahoo.com writes: << Perhaps back in the "good old days" people were as constantly fretting about their own individual lives as they are now, but I think they felt much more securely embedded in a social support network and therefore were more altruistic in their thoughts and feelings. >> Actually they had relatively few thoughts and feelings except for how much gin to drink and when was the next public hanging. There was nothing romantic about the long past. Chuck the Heretic From eletzerich@yahoo.com Wed Jun 01 10:28:23 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25134 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 17:28:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 17:28:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web54110.mail.yahoo.com) (206.190.37.245) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 17:28:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 31809 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2005 17:28:19 -0000 Message-ID: <20050601172819.31807.qmail@web54110.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [83.171.216.254] by web54110.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:28:19 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:28:19 -0700 (PDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 206.190.37.245 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Erica Letzerich Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy and Islam X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419; y=ZUaiAGu7LkEV8EFDwupmIsMnIWofZizoDS0q-rQyTUzEpMRZBA X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you for the link. I read this article one year ago, one of the few articles about theosophy and Islam online. Best wishes, Erica prmoliveira wrote: Recently the view was aired here, I think by Erica and Morten, that more effort should be done to disseminate theosophical teachings in the Middle-East. Below is a small contribution. While the text was composed in Australia, it was checked by two Quranic scholars in Karachi. It was based on a number of articles from old issues of "The Theosophist". (PO) http://www.austheos.org.au/topics/theosophy-islam.htm Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fordshead@yahoo.com Wed Jun 01 10:46:21 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: fordshead@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20845 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 17:46:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 17:46:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.39) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 17:46:19 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 17:46:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.70] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 17:46:15 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:46:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5298 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.39 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 68.228.225.47 From: "Rob Ford" Subject: Re: : : Question for Occultists -- What is sorcery ? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=170351102; y=YpU0ujSP5_LjZZUMlFesaTyjTBNvgtf36mAEvmhjS1XuiPoo X-Yahoo-Profile: fordshead --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Konstantin Zaitzev" wrote: > > > How is it that occult powers differ from "sorcery" only > > through motive? > > I think no. It's white & black magic differ by motive. > Occultism differs from sorcery by knowledge. > Occultist knows the forces and principles which he sets to work while > a sorcerer doesn't. He only knows some methods which give known > results and works mechanically in large extent, or through association > with spirits, animals and elementals. Here are some interesting comments one from W. Q. Judge and one from HPB that seem to indicate that real Occultists of the Heart doctrine are not interested in developing or using the powers and forces that the sorceror abuses. The Christs of all the ages have preached this one doctrine: Charity and Brotherhood of Man. To deny the law of charity is to deny the Christ. The Theosophical Society is not responsible for unveiling to the present generation the occult nature of man. Modern Spiritualism had already done this; nor is the responsibility to be charged to the Spiritualists, for these unseen forces had revealed themselves in the fullness of time, and many millions had become convinced, many against their wills, of the reality of the unseen universe. These things are here, and neither crimination, or recrimination is of any use. The responsibility therefore, rests entirely with the individual, as to what use he makes of his opportunities, as to his purposes and aims, and as he advances in his course, involved in the circle of necessity, he influences whether he will or no, those whose spheres of life touch at any point his own. As ye sow, so shall ye also reap. By and by the cycle will close and both the evil and the good will return like bread cast upon the waters. This is a law of all life. Imagine not that they are weak and vacillating souls who enter the left- hand road: Lucifer was once a prince of light, admitted to the councils of the Most High. He fell through pride, and dragged downward in his fall all who worshipped the demon pride. This is no foolish fable, but a terrible tragedy, enacted at the gates of paradise, in the face of the assembled universe, and reenacted in the heart of man, the epitome of all. Only Infinite pity can measure the downfall of such an one, only Infinite love disarm by annihilation, and so put an end to unendurable woe, and that only when the cycle is complete, the measure of iniquity balanced by its measure of pain. Occultism and magic are not child's-play, as many may learn to their sorrow, as many visitants of dark circles have already and long ago discovered. Better give dynamite to our children as a plaything, than Magic to the unprincipled, the thoughtless, the selfish and ignorant. Let all who have joined the Theosophical Society remember this, and search their hearts before taking the first step in any magical formulary. The motive determines all. Occult power brings with it unknown and unmeasured responsibility. If in the secret councils of the soul, where no eye can see, and no thought deceive that divine spark conscience, we are ready to forget self, to forego pride, and labor for the well-being of man, then may the upright man face his destiny, follow this guide and fear no evil. Otherwise it were far better that a millstone were hung about his neck, and he were cast into the depths of the sea. PYTHAGORAS Path, March, 1887 CONVERSATIONS ON OCCULTISM WITH HPB IF WHITE MAGICIANS ACT, WHAT THEN? "Look here; here's a man who wants to know why the Masters don't interpose at once and save his business. They don't seem to remember what it means for a Master to use occult force. If you explode gunpowder to split a rock you may knock down a house. There is a law that if a White Magician uses his occult power and equal amount of power may be used by the Black one. Chemists invent powders for explosives and wicked men may use them. You force yourself into Mater's presence and you take the consequences of the immense forces around him playing on yourself. If you are weak in character anywhere, the Black ones will use the disturbance by directing the forces engendered to that spot and may compass your ruin. It is so always. Pass the boundary that hedges in the occult realm, and quick forces, new ones, dreadful ones, must be met. Then if you are not strong you may become a wreck for that life. This is the danger. This is one reason why Masters do not appear and do not act directly very often, but nearly always by intermediate degrees. What do you say,-'the dual forces in nature'? Precisely, that's just it; and Theosophists should remember it." DO MASTERS PUNISH? "Now I'm not going to tell you about this. They are just; They embody the Law and Compassion. Do not for an instant imagine that Masters are going to come down on you for your failures and wrongs, if any. Karma looks out for this. Masters' ethics are the highest. From the standpoint of your question, They do not punish. Have I not told you that, much as detractors have cast mud at Them, never will the Masters impose punishment. I cannot see why such a question comes up. Karma will do all the punishing that is necessary." From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Wed Jun 01 10:54:47 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12172 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 17:54:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 17:54:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx03.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.13) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 17:54:46 -0000 Received: from 3e6b13fb.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.19.251] helo=khidr) by mx03.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1DdXNI-0006Ww-1D for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:51:31 +0200 Message-ID: <002801c566d3$54fbae00$fb136b3e@khidr> To: References: <20050601172819.31807.qmail@web54110.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:57:09 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Originating-IP: 212.10.10.13 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy and Islam X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933; y=1Ah0Wtp9VvueAlSaXpPzywf95q4HTKQSrrs4EIUqGQOp X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo all, My views are: A few more issues on the Quran - so to use in the quiet evenings at the "pseudo-LCC group". :-) Sura 24:35 35 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things. (Version: Pickthall version - for easy copy pasting.) http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/index.htm - - - Even Jesus Christ taught his disciples in ALLEGORIES. - - - Sura 2:28-29 28 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return. 29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things. (Version: Pickthall version - for easy copy pasting.) http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/index.htm Sura 50:6 6 But we created man, and we know what his soul whispers; for we are nigher to him than his jugular vein! (Version: Palmer) http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/index.htm Sura 56:77-80 77 That (this) is indeed a noble "Qur'an" 78 In a Book kept hidden 79 Which none toucheth save the purified, 80 A revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. ( I did add the citation-, marks to the word Quran - because some authors - among them - Dara Shikoh (eller Shukuh) ca. 1615-59 - considered this word at this particular place to be the same as the Upanishads or Vedas. The word Quran had a different meaning back in the oled days. It is wellknown that Mohammad was part of a Sufi Circle, although the ignorants who can't read the Akasha think different.) (Version: Pickthall version - for easy copy pasting.) http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/index.htm from M. Sufilight with peace and love...and his friend El-Khidr... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erica Letzerich" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy and Islam > Thank you for the link. I read this article one year ago, one of the few > articles about theosophy and Islam online. > > Best wishes, > > Erica > > prmoliveira wrote: > Recently the view was aired here, I think by Erica and Morten, that > more effort should be done to disseminate theosophical teachings in the > Middle-East. Below is a small contribution. While the text was composed > in Australia, it was checked by two Quranic scholars in Karachi. It was > based on a number of articles from old issues of "The Theosophist". (PO) > > http://www.austheos.org.au/topics/theosophy-islam.htm > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jun 01 11:17:50 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38281 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 18:17:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 18:17:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 18:17:49 -0000 Received: from [209.179.141.139] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DdXmM-00039j-0H; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:17:25 -0400 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:17:16 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c566d6$27a6e250$8b8db3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20050601091546.062988e0@mail.gbronline.com> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec796e96a9df1370b75f290d1b253990beab350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.89.65 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: AMERICA AND THE ATLANTEANS -- Atlanteans: Races beginning and ending X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573; y=QvlXzTGGvZjw8mEPzt3OI17hiw-GXJG2d_E6CQ8fVB0DDA X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 June 1 2005 Dear Friends: The SECRET DOCTRINE is a mine of valuable information for those who read an= d wonder about its statements: Re: Races beginning and ending "The human Races are born one from the other, grow, develop, become old, an= d die. Their sub-races and nations follow the same rule. If your all-denying modern science and so-called philosophy do not contest that the human famil= y is composed of a variety of well-defined types and races, it is only becaus= e the fact is undeniable, no one would say that there was no external difference between an Englishman, an African negro, and a Japanese or Chinaman.=20 On the other hand it is formally denied by most naturalists that mixed huma= n races, i.e., the seeds for entirely new races, are any longer formed in our days. But this last is maintained on good grounds by de Quatrefages and som= e others.=20 Nevertheless our general proposition will not be accepted. It will be said that whatever forms man has passed through in the long pre-historic Past there are no more changes for him (save certain variations, as at present) in the future. Hence that our Sixth and Seventh Root Races are fictions.=20 To this it is again answered: How do you know?=20 Your experience is limited to a few thousand years, to less than a day in the whole age of Humanity and to the present types of the actual continents and isles of our Fifth Race. How can you tell what will or will not be? Meanwhile, such is the prophecy of the Secret Books and their no uncertain statements.=20 Since the beginning of the Atlantean Race many million years have passed, yet we find the last of the Atlanteans, still mixed up with the Aryan element, 11,000 years ago. This shows the enormous overlapping of one race over the race which succeeds it, though in character and external type the elder loses its characteristics, and assumes the new features of the younge= r race. This is proved in all the formations of mixed human races.=20 Now, Occult philosophy teaches that even now, under our very eyes, the new Race and Races are preparing to be formed, and that it is in America that the transformation will take place, and has already silently commenced.=20 Pure Anglo-Saxons hardly three hundred years ago, the Americans of the United States have already become a nation apart, and, owing to a strong admixture of various nationalities and inter-marriage, almost a race sui generis, not only mentally, but also physically. "Every mixed race, when uniform and settled, has been able to play the part of a primary race in fresh crossings," says de Quatrefages. "Mankind, in its present state, has thus been formed, certainly, for the greatest part, by the successive crossing of a number of races at present undetermined" ("The Human Species,= " p. 274.)=20 Thus the Americans have become in only three centuries a "primary race," pr= o tem., before becoming a race apart, and strongly separated from all other now existing races. They are, in short, the germs of the Sixth sub-race, an= d in some few hundred years more, will become most decidedly the pioneers of that race which must succeed to the present European or fifth sub-race, in all its new characteristics.=20 After this, in about 25,000 years, they will launch into preparations for the seventh sub-race; until, in consequence of cataclysms - the first serie= s of those which must one day destroy Europe, and still later the whole Aryan race (and thus affect both Americas), as also most of the lands directly connected with the confines of our continent and isles - the Sixth Root-Rac= e will have appeared on the stage of our Round.=20 When shall this be? Who knows save the great Masters of Wisdom, perchance, and they are as silent upon the subject as the snow-capped peaks that tower above them. All we know is, that it will silently come into existence; so silently, indeed, that for long millenniums shall its pioneers - the peculiar children who will grow into peculiar men and women - be regarded a= s anomalous lusus naturae, abnormal oddities physically and mentally.=20 Then, as they increase, and their numbers become with every age greater, on= e day they will awake to find themselves in a majority. It is the present men who will then begin to be regarded as exceptional mongrels, until these die out in their turn in civilised lands; surviving only in small groups on islands - the mountain peaks of to-day - where they will vegetate, degenerate, and finally die out, perhaps millions of years hence, as the Aztecs have, as the Nyam-Nyam and the dwarfish Moola Koorumba of the Nilghiri Hills are dying.=20 All these are the remnants of once mighty races, the recollection of whose existence has entirely died out of the remembrance of the modern generations, just as we shall vanish from the memory of the Sixth Race Humanity. The Fifth will overlap the Sixth Race for many hundreds of millenniums, changing with it slower than its new successor, still changing in stature, general physique, and mentality, just as the Fourth overlapped our Aryan race, and the Third had overlapped the Atlanteans.=20 This process of preparation for the Sixth great Race must last throughout the whole sixth and seventh sub-races (vide supra, the diagram of the Genealogical Tree of the Fifth Race). But the last remnants of the Fifth Continent will not disappear until some time after the birth of the new Race; when another and new dwelling, the sixth continent, will have appeare= d above the new waters on the face of the globe, so as to receive the new stranger.=20 To it also will emigrate and settle all those who shall be fortunate enough to escape the general disaster. When this shall be - as just said - it is not for the writer to know. Only, as nature no more proceeds by sudden jump= s and starts, than man changes suddenly from a child into a mature man, the final cataclysm will be preceded by many smaller submersions and destructions both by wave and volcanic fires.=20 The exultant pulse will beat high in the heart of the race now in the American zone, but there will be no more Americans when the Sixth Race commences; no more, in fact, than Europeans; for they will have now become = a new race, and many new nations. Yet the Fifth will not die, but survive for a while: overlapping the new Race for many hundred thousands of years to come, it will become transformed with it - slower than its new successor - still getting entirely altered in mentality, general physique, and stature. Mankind will not grow again into giant bodies as in the case of the Lemurians and the Atlanteans; because while the evolution of the Fourth rac= e led the latter down to the very bottom of materiality in its physical development, the present Race is on its ascending arc; and the Sixth will b= e rapidly growing out of its bonds of matter, and even of flesh.=20 Thus it is the mankind of the New world - one by far the senior of our Old one, a fact men had also forgotten - of Patala (the Antipodes, or the Nethe= r World, as America is called in India), whose mission and Karma it is, to so= w the seeds for a forthcoming, grander, and far more glorious Race than any o= f those we know of at present.=20 The Cycles of Matter will be succeeded by Cycles of Spirituality and a full= y developed mind. On the law of parallel history and races, the majority of the future mankind will be composed of glorious Adepts.=20 Humanity is the child of cyclic Destiny, and not one of its Units can escap= e its unconscious mission, or get rid of the burden of its co-operative work with nature. Thus will mankind, race after race, perform its appointed cycle-pilgrimage.=20 Climates will, and have already begun, to change, each tropical year after the other dropping one sub-race, but only to beget another higher race on the ascending cycle; while a series of other less favoured groups - the failures of nature - will, like some individual men, vanish from the human family without even leaving a trace behind. =20 Such is the course of Nature under the sway of KARMIC LAW: of the ever present and the ever-becoming Nature. For, in the words of a Sage, known only to a few Occultists:-=20 "the present is the child of the past; the future, the begotten of the present. and yet, o present moment! knowest thou not that thou hast no parent, nor canst thou have a child; that thou art ever begetting but thyself? before thou hast even begun to say 'i am the progeny of the departed moment, the child of the past,' thou hast become that past itself. before thou utterest the last syllable,=20 BEHOLD! THOU ART NO MORE THE PRESENT BUT VERILY THAT FUTURE. THUS, ARE THE PAST, THE PRESENT, AND THE FUTURE, THE EVER-LIVING TRINITY IN ONE - THE MAHAMAYA OF THE ABSOLUTE IS."=20 S D II 443 -7 --- =20 Interesting prophecies here to consider, This may be the quotation our contributor was remembering. Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: MKR Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:27 AM To:=20 Subject: way Internet developed=20 The way Internet developed was analogous to the growth of a new Race. There is a statement in one of HPB's writings that as the new emerging race= =20 grows stealthly, one day suddenly world finds the new race has overtaken=20 the old. When Internet developed, its growth was not well known and perhaps= =20 few suspected that it would emerge in the current form in such a short=20 period of time. One of the major benefits that the world received by this=20 sudden growth of Internet is that the vested interests did not recognize=20 the power of Internet and thus they did not have the time to clobber the=20 growth by introduction of proprietary technology as well as influence the=20 politicians to stifle the development by governmental controls and=20 regulation. By the time Internet became widely used, it was too late; the=20 horse was out of the barn and nothing could be done. In looking at the=20 development of Internet, I feel that there are unmistakable signs that=20 higher powers were behind its development. mkr =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D At 02:23 AM 06/01/05 -0700, W.Dallas TenBroeck wrote: >June 1 2005 >Dear Friends: > This is presented as a result of recent discussions. > >Did They know the INTERNET was coming ? >Dallas From jjhe@charter.net Wed Jun 01 12:10:15 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 3822 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 19:10:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 19:10:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf07.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.207) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 19:10:14 -0000 Received: from mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.149]) by mxsf07.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j51JA2RQ007016 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:10:02 -0400 Received: from 68-116-80-89.dhcp.trlk.ca.charter.com (HELO [127.0.0.1]) (68.116.80.89) by mxip19a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2005 15:09:54 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.93,157,1115006400"; d="scan'208"; a="1102038496:sNHT642194248" Message-ID: <429E0800.9060306@charter.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:09:52 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 209.225.28.207 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:Those who study Blavatsky's writing become fundamentalists X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Anand, friends, Anand, you write: >What you are suggesting is whole world should change and all people >in it should make themselves suitable for reading Blavatsky's >writing. > What I wrote was that most Americans lack the skills needed to read with much understanding anything written above a fifteen year old level. They are unable to read with much understanding anything but the simplest writing. What I would suggest is that people would be generally better off if they were to work on improving their reading and thinking skills. >This expectation is not right. > I have no such expectation that people should learn to read and think at a higher level. My experience has been that most young people who go to the universities resist learning to read, write or think. They tell me that they are there to get their diploma and get a job that pays a lot of money. More often, I find people who learn for the love of learning among Theosophists. But there are relatively few theosophists. >Writer must write in a way >that people would understand what he writes and lifts them from their >level. > I don't agree, and have to side with Blavatsky on this one when she writes: "To the mentally lazy or obtuse, Theosophy must remain a riddle; for in the world mental as in the world spiritual each man must progress by his own efforts. The writer cannot do the reader's thinking for him, nor would the latter be any the better off if such vicarious thought were possible." (Key to Theosophy, preface). People have to raise themselves from their own levels. A writer cannot do that for them. Blavatsky's writings have a way of challenging people to do this--if they are motivated to do so. >Blavatsky failed to write in such manner and she admitted it. > I agree, she did not write in such a manner. But how is this a failure? Please quote where she made such a statement. >Another thing is Master also said that " people want lucid >explanation which appears to her (HPB) superfluous" > That sounds like something KH would have written. HPB, in her earlier writings indeed left much unexplained. That was remidied with the Secret Doctrine. Source of this quote please. >Ordinary people >don't understand her writing. > True. "Ordinary people" no longer have the reading skills, and are too lazy, or are not otherwise motivated to try to read at that level. >Scholars consider it bad way of >presentation. So definitely fault is in Blavatsky's writing. > Where did you get this idea? I read scholarly works all the time--contemporary and older works. Most of them are more difficult to read than Blavatsky. "Ordinary people," as you put it, don't understand scholarly writing either. >You said you could appreciate Leadbeater's writing because you had >already seen many things about what he wrote. What things did you see? > I did not write "appreciate." I wrote that he was particularly "easy" for me to read because I had already seen many of the things he wrote about. >I have seen many people who studied Blavatsky's writing lost common >sense, became dogmatic and fundamentalist, intolerant towards others >and even were filled with intense hatred. This is greatest failure of >any writer on spiritual subject. > I have seen many people who studied Besant and Leadbeater's writings who lost common sense and became dogmatic and fundamentalist, intolerant towards others and even were filled with intense hatred. I suggest that the fault is with those people, not the writers. >I saw many students of Besant and Leadbeater who had very fine, >sensitive emotional nature and many were working unselfishly for >helping others. This is the change in heart that writing on occultism >must produce and AB, CWL succeeded in that very well. > I have seen Blavatsky students who had a very fine, sensitive emotuional nature, and many were working unselfishly for helping others. I suggest that the change in heart is the accomplishment of the people, not the writer's. >It is true that Blavatsky mostly commented writings on other >philosophers, religions etc. But most people are not interested in >studying old religions and writings of old philosophers, even less on >commentaries on those. So for most people value of her writing is neg >legible. > How very sad for them. >Leadbeater explains about things which large number of people want to >know in language they understand. Marvellous thing is he explains >most metaphysical concepts in language ordinary reader understands. > Indeed he does. However, without any knowledge of "old Religions" and "old philosophers" they are in no position to evaluate what CWL writes. Even the "intuition" you have written of in previous posts cannot properly function in a vacuum of ignorance. True spiritual intuition, like everything else, must be developed, and also checked by knowledge. We must climb the ladder of spiritual unfoldment one rung at a time and skip none. Best wishes, Jerry Anand Gholap wrote: >Jerry, >What you are suggesting is whole world should change and all people >in it should make themselves suitable for reading Blavatsky's >writing. This expectation is not right. Writer must write in a way >that people would understand what he writes and lifts them from their >level. Blavatsky failed to write in such manner and she admitted it. >Another thing is Master also said that " people want lucid >explanation which appears to her (HPB) superfluous" Ordinary people >don't understand her writing. Scholars consider it bad way of >presentation. So definitely fault is in Blavatsky's writing. > >You said you could appreciate Leadbeater's writing because you had >already seen many things about what he wrote. What things did you see? > >I have seen many people who studied Blavatsky's writing lost common >sense, became dogmatic and fundamentalist, intolerant towards others >and even were filled with intense hatred. This is greatest failure of >any writer on spiritual subject. >I saw many students of Besant and Leadbeater who had very fine, >sensitive emotional nature and many were working unselfishly for >helping others. This is the change in heart that writing on occultism >must produce and AB, CWL succeeded in that very well. > >It is true that Blavatsky mostly commented writings on other >philosophers, religions etc. But most people are not interested in >studying old religions and writings of old philosophers, even less on >commentaries on those. So for most people value of her writing is neg >legible. >Leadbeater explains about things which large number of people want to >know in language they understand. Marvellous thing is he explains >most metaphysical concepts in language ordinary reader understands. > >Anand Gholap > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > From samblo@cs.com Wed Jun 01 12:50:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 82558 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 19:50:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 19:50:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m23.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.4) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 19:50:02 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r1.7.) id r.1de.3cb871fd (26116) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1de.3cb871fd.2fcf6b64@cs.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:49:56 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-Originating-IP: 64.12.137.4 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World THEOSOPHICAL PROPHECY X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dallas, >>It will probably be found, in the course of time, that the oft-repeated statements of H. P. Blavatsky that the ancients had all of our arts and mechanical devices were true. She asserted that they had flying machines. In Buddhist books is a story of Buddha which refers to a flying machine or mechanical bird used in a former life of the Lord, and Indian tradition speaks also of air walking machines<< You and others on the list might enjoy the below links on "Ancient Flying Craft." The Vymaanika Shastra - Index http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/vs/index.htm The Vymaanika Shastra:Plates (Graphical Representations of the Flying Craft interpreted according to the Shastra) http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/vs/vso2.htm John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eletzerich@yahoo.com Wed Jun 01 14:43:33 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75768 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2005 21:43:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2005 21:43:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.28) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2005 21:43:32 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n14.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 21:43:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.79] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2005 21:43:24 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:43:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002801c566d3$54fbae00$fb136b3e@khidr> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3780 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.28 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 83.171.216.254 From: "Erica Letzerich" Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy and Islam X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419; y=rupxHZ8bcn5gI4PZi0BWivvja5aBeDtcgPowMCX5kBbKU9adpQ X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich There is a wise Greek saying which is: Oi Kaloi einai panta epirrepeis se dakrya... The good are always prone to tears... Erica --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight" wrote: > Hallo all, > > My views are: > > > A few more issues on the Quran - so to use in the quiet evenings at the > "pseudo-LCC group". > :-) > > > > Sura 24:35 > > 35 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His > light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is > as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an > olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth > (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto > His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for > Allah is Knower of all things. > (Version: Pickthall version - for easy copy pasting.) > http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/index.htm > - - - Even Jesus Christ taught his disciples in ALLEGORIES. - - - > > > > Sura 2:28-29 > > 28 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! > Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will > return. > > 29 He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to > the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all > things. > (Version: Pickthall version - for easy copy pasting.) > http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/index.htm > > > > Sura 50:6 > > 6 But we created man, and we know what his soul whispers; for we are nigher > to him than his jugular vein! > (Version: Palmer) > http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/index.htm > > > > Sura 56:77-80 > 77 That (this) is indeed a noble "Qur'an" > > 78 In a Book kept hidden > > 79 Which none toucheth save the purified, > > 80 A revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. > > ( I did add the citation-, marks to the word Quran - because some authors - > among them - Dara Shikoh (eller Shukuh) ca. 1615-59 - considered this word > at this particular place to be the same as the Upanishads or Vedas. The word > Quran had a different meaning back in the oled days. It is wellknown that > Mohammad was part of a Sufi Circle, although the ignorants who can't read > the Akasha think different.) > (Version: Pickthall version - for easy copy pasting.) > http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/htq/index.htm > > > > > > from > M. Sufilight with peace and love...and his friend El-Khidr... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Erica Letzerich" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 7:28 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy and Islam > > > > Thank you for the link. I read this article one year ago, one of the few > > articles about theosophy and Islam online. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Erica > > > > prmoliveira wrote: > > Recently the view was aired here, I think by Erica and Morten, that > > more effort should be done to disseminate theosophical teachings in the > > Middle-East. Below is a small contribution. While the text was composed > > in Australia, it was checked by two Quranic scholars in Karachi. It was > > based on a number of articles from old issues of "The Theosophist". (PO) > > > > http://www.austheos.org.au/topics/theosophy-islam.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From david-blankenship@comcast.net Wed Jun 01 14:59:49 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: david-blankenship@comcast.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (