From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Sat Jan 01 03:32:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52697 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 11:32:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 11:32:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 11:32:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 11:32:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 11:32:10 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 11:32:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3072 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 From: "prmoliveira" X-Originating-IP: 150.101.201.135 Subject: Re: "It is possible...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell" wrote: > You write: > > "It is possible that Theosophy, as a teaching, > adapts itself to the socio-cultural reality of > the age to which it is presented." > > Well, Pedro, this may be true, so can you give > us an example of this in present day "socio- > cultural reality"? > > I keep wondering what your basic point is: > what exactly are you trying to say..... Daniel: I am trying to explore a question: can Theosophy evolve? You may remember that in his book "Modern Theosophy", Hugh Shearman suggested two dimensions in Theosophy: primary and secondary. Primary Theosophy is Divine Wisdom, Theosophia, Brahmavidya, in other words, a transcendental Wisdom, "epopteia", the knowledge of things as they are. Theosophy, at this level, is beyond formulations. The secondary level is a teaching that throws light on the deeper aspects of life, such as Karma, Post-mortem States, Evolution, the Constitution of the Human Being, the Spiritual Path, etc. Now a teaching is basically a presentation about something; it is an attempt to show something, as this is one of the meanings of the verb 'to teach'. I am trying to find out, through questioning, if Theosophy, as a teaching, can evolve. And in this process I think I am beginning to understand Mahatma KH's much quoted statement: "Science is our best ally". Two examples: 1. The maping of the human genoma has led one of the scientists involved in it to declare that as more than 80% of the genes of humans are common, the word "race" has hardly any meaning anymore, as there is only one humanity. This suggests that humanity is indeed one even at the physical level! This relates to what Theosophists at the end of the 19th century called "Universal Brotherhood without distinctions". 2. Paul Davies, a well-known Australian scientist, has declared that while he doesn't accept the idea of a personal Creator nor the randomness hypothesis put forward by some scientists to explain the ultimate nature of the universe, he is prepared to accept the existence of an overarching teleological principle as the source of order and development of the universe. Does this resemble the notion of Mahat in the SD? Perhaps Theosophy is finding expression in the contemporary world through that which is its dominant mode of knowing - science, since religion has, on the whole, walked backwards and is now the ideology behind present day wars, and philosophy, with very few exceptions, has become a very select club for those who like to indulge in sophisticated discourse among cognac connoisseurs. If we think that Theosophy can be confined within the walls of a theosophical organisation, or the covers of a well-known book or books, or the electronic boundaries of an informative website, we may have to think twice. Theosophy may be finding expressions in the contemporary world of which we may not be even aware. Let me end with another question: can the world teach us Theosophy? Pedro From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Jan 01 04:10:44 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76818 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 12:10:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 12:10:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 12:10:43 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.93] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cki5X-0003G6-UH; Sat, 01 Jan 2005 07:10:33 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=BV9rSAX0A366vWX6nCwgbmqTtvHR7cn9q+U+7WSWImDcDAJckERTlRWo3REffe8V; To: Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 04:10:17 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c4effa$e4573740$5d8cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79262d6fee80052863d0142bf33c94ffa5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.93 Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: UNCERTAINTY X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Jan 1 2005 Friends: My great problem is in distinguishing these and making a progressive as wel= l as a retrospective analysis of information versus facts that are immutable. {Are there any such?] The certainty of immutability is important, or else we are indeed in a sea of continually wavering indecision -- thinking all is "maya" and therefore useless because unintelligible. Since we, the Universe and our relations exist, the intangibility vanishes. Now the one question remains: plausibility.=20=20 Why this mess we all call life and living? Why are we here -- and having to deal with it. How should any confusions be resolved? Are there any who have advanced or transcended -- and can offer us sure and reasoned ways of unpuzzling things? Help is needed from all on this.=20=20 What are the steps every one could use and also be reasonably certain of? Best wishes, Dal =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: sensaru Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 7:12 AM To:=20 Subject: Re: UNCERTAINTY isn't possible that all is and could be, exists now and it is our unfolding awareness, that reveals process.=20 >=20 > From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" > Date: 2004/12/28 Tue AM 09:09:08 EST > To: study@blavatsky.net > Subject: [bn-study] Re: UNCERTAINTY >=20 >=20 > Dec 29 2004 >=20 > Dear Friends: >=20 > CERTAINTY AND UNCERTAINTY >=20 >=20 > Of three things everyone can be quite certain: >=20 >=20 > 1 We know we exist. >=20 > 2 We know that a host of beings are all around us, and we can say with > certainty: We know the Universe (ALL--INCLUSIVE) exists. >=20 > 3 The 3rd item of certainty is that there is an on-going relationship > between us and the rest of the Universe (or call it Nature). It supports > and gives us life, and in turn we either help it in its creative work, or we > try to impair or destroy it. It is forever a give and take situation. = =20 >=20 > The Universe has been here a far longer time than we have. It nurtures more > than anything else. It arranges the laws of co-existence, from the sub-atom, > to the grandest and furtherest aspects we can probe of its illimitable > boundaries. Science declares we owe our life to its regularity, > impersonality and exactitude. Nothing is left out of its purview.=20=20 >=20 > Our so-called scientific discoveries merely uncover successive preexistin= g > layers of living interaction everywhere. If that is not evidence of > intelligence and consciousness, then I don't know what those words mean.= =20 >=20 > Best wishes, >=20 >=20 > Dallas >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D >=20=20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Jan 01 04:10:45 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30171 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 12:10:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 12:10:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.65) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 12:10:45 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.93] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth05.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cki5g-0003G6-LH; Sat, 01 Jan 2005 07:10:44 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=NJyjX1oycNrhdsA4ohBUjHIDPi/u+lVnS8jK2qPW4oMHt7/ehaYsqbkbTSxDAwuH; To: Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 04:10:17 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01c4effa$e9873030$5d8cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79262d6fee80052863c1604323657875c3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.65 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.93 Subject: RE: Theos-World Newbie here X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 31 2004 Dear Friend Dee: Let me offer you a kind of an introduction, and then let me ask you to visi= t PHOENIX=A0 ULT=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0at=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 www.phx-ult-lodge.org= / Books "on line" are accessible there. Please open and start reading "The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY" and see if it does not make matters of understanding THEOSOPHY more simple.=20=20 Each of us approaches THEOSOPHY with our own desires, interest and education. The "Ocean" gives in about 180 pages an excellent over-view of what THEOSOPHY states and how it is reasoned out. OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY (Judge) And KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) & GLOSSARY (H P B) [Theosophy: Doctrines and the T S objects ] This is a synopsis of THEOSOPHY and of the subjects covered in detail in th= e SECRET DOCTRINE and ISIS UNVEILED. Also, see: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AT AN INFORMAL "OCEAN " CLASS (R C) I found this helpful as it covers many of the questions I had, and was also up to date and interesting on its own. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D They, at: -- PHOENIX ULT at www.phx-ult-lodge.org/ also offer "On line" texts for reading or downloading: -- KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) & GLOSSARY (H P B) [Theosophy and the T S ] ISIS UNVEILED [Science & Theology reviewed] SECRET DOCTRINE [From Ancient Records] [Doctrines and Ancient History of Evolution] TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE ( H P B ) [Studies in the 1st Vol. S D with HPB.] THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY (HPB) [Specialized & Technical words used] VOICE OF THE SILENCE=20=20 [Practical Occultism & THEOSOPHY] =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 A MODERN PANARION=A0 ( H P B ) [Early articles on Spiritualism, etc...] FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY [Articles discussing Isis Unveiled topics.] =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The FRIENDLY PHILOSOPHER (Robert Crosbie) [Letters and Lectures on THEOSOPHY and its use.] =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ETERNAL VERITIES=A0 (Robert Crosbie) [THEOSOPHY for children in Lesson form] OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY (Judge) [A Synopsis of the SECRET DOCTRINE ] ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS AT AN INFORMAL "OCEAN " CLASS ( by R C) =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 POINT OUT THE WAY [Answers to Questions at an=20 "Ocean" Class ( by J G) ] =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ECHOES FROM THE ORIENT (Judge) [Survey of THEOSOPHY, 60 pages] =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 EPITOME OF THEOSOPHY (Judge) [Brief survey of THEOSOPHY 30 pages] =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS (Judge) [Study of Mind, thinking and emotions.] =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME=A0 ( W Q Judge ) [Practical THEOSOPHY discussed.] =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THEOSOPHICAL FORUM=A0 --=A0=20 [Answers By=A0 W Q Judge ] BHAGAVAD GITA and=20=20 BHAGAVAD GITA NOTES (Judge) LIGHT ON THE PATH=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THE DHAMMAPADA=A0 ( Footfalls of the Law )=A0=20 [Teachings of Gautama Buddha.] THE LIGHT OF ASIA=A0=20 [Life and teachings of Gautama Buddha.] =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT ( 1875 - 1950)=A0=20 [Documentary History of modern THEOSOPHY] ------------------------------------------------------- In the meanwhile let me say : Welcome to Theosophy In each one of us lies the same potentials. At root base we are "rays" of the same ONE SPIRIT. We are all brothers. We are brothers to the Atoms, t= o the grains of sand, to the grass, to the elephant and the ant. In each of these resides a Monad (an organizing intelligence), and that contains as on= e of its components a "Ray" of the UNIVERSAL SPIRIT. This does away with all distinctions, and all concepts of difference, isolation, superiority of religion or politics, anger, pleasure, retaliation, difference, selfishness, etc... It unites us all into a livin= g universal BROTHERHOOD.=20=20 It requires of us (as humans) the using of our ability to think about fundamentals and to secure the ability to penetrate below effects to their causes. For example. We all use electricity, but we do not know what it is= . It can be generated and channeled, but we still do not know WHAT IT IS. = =20 We all use FIRE, but, what is fire? We note the effect of fire (or its lack) and we know how to burn things, or insulate them. We deal with our own minds, but we do not know what the MIND is. Nor are we very good at distinguishing a "DESIRE" from a thought. What, for instance is MOTIVE ? Ho= w should we discuss "virtue?" And that (Universal Brotherhood) is the first "Object" of the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT -- an ideal and an objective -- to live our lives and direct our thoughts and deeds as if we were trying to form a nucleus of Universal Brotherhood. This sounds vague, perhaps, because we have been educated to think the territorial imperative, and an adversarial selfish and self-protective approach was the way of life. If so, at the end of life what gain can we show?=20=20 Look back into history. Whose memories do we esteem? The butchers of men, the oppressors and the conquerors, or those who try to make us see we belon= g to a single family and are all brothers and sisters with something far more powerful than a physical blood-brotherhood and kinship. Are religions and philosophies built on the sayings of tyrants or of those who explained and enjoined the practice of benevolence and the search for truth? An understanding of the existence of the immortal MONAD in us, as in all things demonstrates to our mind this concept and reinforces the sense of tolerance. Welcome to our talkative company -- many fine minds and many opinions. We seek those ideas that are useful and common-sense, and which balance our daily realities with what humor we can muster in view of the fact that we are, in fact, all, brother (and sister) immortals in essence. We cannot "get rid of each-other,=94 now, or in the future.=20 The "theosophical world" is a wide one. Tolerance of each other's beliefs i= s basic to all, or we could not talk to each other. We can be at the same time sympathetic and trenchant when an idea seems inaccurate. So we have all to be resilient. What we do have in common is a basic desire to find and use that which is true and useful. If we find that someone seems to have developed a tangent= , or a bias, one or other of us is very likely to challenge it (not the person, but the idea) in tones "loud and clear." This can often be quite abrasive to one's pet ideas or beliefs. At that time we ought to sit and examine them, and then return with questions that bring out the meaning (as we may have misunderstood) of what the other says. Our greatest barrier has been, and is, largely: language and thought-images, as we have all developed personal uses for words, and our ideas seem to be, different in value. This can always be adjusted but, it takes time and patience. In some cases the "history," or the "traditions" of the theosophical group in which we have developed seems to separate those groups, but, a study of the developing history of the Theosophical Movement (documents and events) reconciles such differences. But, that is reviewing the past, and, is only valuable to explain some trends we each carry and show.=20=20 The more we know, the broader the base of study and consideration, the more stable is Theosophy found to be as a philosophy that considers all aspects of nature, of life, and of development. In its consideration of human psychology alone it outstrips and adjusts many aspects of Modern clinical Psychology, -- I offer this as one instance. In another realm it is found to delve into the sources of all faiths, sects and religions with a view to seeking their common origins and thus reconciling them all--adding to the understanding that leads to true tolerance.=20=20 In the original Theosophical literature written by Mme. Blavatsky you will find wide ranging concepts of knowledge reviewed. Some statements conflict with Science, as she claims that ancient science shows a broader base than that which is yet developed as our Science investigates Nature in many departments. After all: Science seeks for those facts and laws that are already existent in the complexities and relationships existing already in Nature as a whole. There is much more, as for instance, the concept of universal evolution --a progress which involves every single living thing, and binds all together into a vast "brotherhood," from the "atom" to the "World," to the Universe as a Whole. It looks into the origins of intelligence in life and being, and it considers their middle course in which we now find ourselves, and finally it considers the eventual reincarnation of all this marvelous complexity as a continuity which never ceases to be.=20=20 Hence immortality for the spirit/soul of each human, as of all "life-atoms (Monads)" is a given. The Universe is run by Laws which are complex but simple in their operations: each action, be it a thought or an impulse leaves an indelible impression of its surroundings, beginning with our selves, and thus we predispose ourselves to the personal nature which we have.=20=20 The power of the will, based on individual intelligence and consciousness allows each of us to choose his own future by decisions which are his, or her, own. Thus universal evolution. This independence is said to be a proof of the immortal Individuality, of the Spirit/Soul of each person. = =20 It is an idea at least worth considering, as included in its purview is the concept that each is individually responsible for such choices and acts as they do, and this responsibility is inescapable (Karma) because of the universal equity and justice that rules every aspect of Nature. There are no "miracles," nor will "prayer" cause our making of the essential and necessary restitution (or benefit) to vanish.=20=20 You observe that much seems theoretical and there is less in the nature of "practical" matters discussed. This may be so, but the "theoretical," if correct can lead to the practical, which is in the hands and subject to th= e will/decisions of each person in the place where he/she lives and works. = =20 For all of us, one primary duty exists: to learn what Theosophy teaches. The applications then are obvious. A knowledge of such theoretical/practical information can best be acquired by a careful reading of Mme. Blavatsky's THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (300 pages). This book offers a good basis to secure information on all aspects of basic theosophical theor= y and its practical application, as she devotes over 100 pages to both subjects. I am sure that you know most of this and I am only writing because you say you are a new-comer to this our smorgasbord of thoughts and ideas. =93IDEAS RULE THE WORLD=94 Let then discover true ones together. Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: dee1387=20 Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 6:37 AM To:=20 Subject: Newbie here Hello Theos-Talk, My friends call me Dee, living in Fayetteville, NC. I'm 31 years=20 old and I had lost myself somewhere and I have been on a mission to=20 discover me for the past year. A few months ago I discovered - or=20 finally come to terms - that one of the reasons that I'm having=20 trouble with discovering myself is that I have a form of=20 depression. But for the past year or so I've been conducting my=20 search from a spiritual perspective - and a lot of therapy sessions. In the past year I purchased several books such as, different=20 versions of the Bible, the Septuagint, the Gnostic Bible, books on=20 paganism, I Ching, The Idiot's Guide to World Religions, meditation,=20 etc. Every time I went into the book store, there was this one=20 particular 2 book volume set that, for some reason, I was drawn to=20 it. I had no idea what it was or what it was about. Finally, one=20 day after several trips to the book store, and having some sort a=20 compelling feeling towards the books every time I walked down that=20 isle, I purchased the set , The Secret Doctrine. I read the=20 introduction and part of the first chapter. That's how I discovered=20 that there is such a thing as Theosophy. I had a difficult time=20 understanding what H.P.B. was saying, a lot of terms were foreign to=20 me so I went back to the store and bought Isis Unveiled, hoping that=20 will clue me in to what every thing is about.=20 So here I am, joined a group in hopes of learning more about=20 Theosophy and maybe find some folks in my area that might be=20 interested in meeting up some time. Have a Happy New Year, Dee From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sat Jan 01 05:08:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6216 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 13:08:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 13:08:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.11) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 13:08:41 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.115]) by mta1.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 73662868 for ; Sat, 01 Jan 2005 07:07:03 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20050101070820.02f48c10@mail.stic.net> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 07:09:20 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-43B817A9 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.11 From: MKR Subject: Tsunami - Contributions X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Here is a msg that I received from the local lodge in the US, which may be of some interest to some. mkr -------------------------------- From: Secretary's Office [mailto:theossoc@satyam.net.in] Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 11:00 PM To: ...... Subject: Message from Adyar Dear ..... Thank you for your kind offer of aid to the tsunami victims. The International Secretary of the Theosophical Order Of Service (TOS) Diana Dunningham Chapotin is here in Adyar at this time and began the collecting of funds and clothing for the victims. The TOS at Adyar is organizing a programme of assistance to the refugees. A collection is being made, through the International Treasury at Adyar, supervised by Miss Keshwar Dastur. At present the money collected by the TOS is being spent on medical supplies and emergency needs. Other service groups in the area are assisting with food, accommodation and household needs. If you would like to contribute the following procedure would be best. You may use either Bank draft or deposit in the account of the T S at Adyar. The Bank Address is Standard Chartered Bank Sorrento Adyar Branch Chennai 600 020 India. The Bank Account number is 42810001582 Swift Code SCBLINBBXXX Title of account - The Theosophical Society Please mark your donation for TOS Madras Region Tsunami relief, to distinguish it from other deposits. The payments need to be marked for the treasury department to assign them to the correct area. It is also necessary to advise the Treasurer, by post or through this e-mail address or the Treasurer's e-mail ts_treasury@sify.com that the deposit has been made and the amount. This will ensure that the Treasury is able to check with the bank that all donations have been credited to the TS account.. We would also like a postal address from you, as you will receive a receipt from the Treasury, and at a later time all donors will receive details of the manner in which the funds have been distributed. Warmest wishes from Adyar Mary Anderson International Secretary -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/04 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/04 From dlriver@nc.rr.com Sat Jan 01 07:15:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dlriver@nc.rr.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42611 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 15:15:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 15:15:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 15:15:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 15:15:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.120] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 15:15:07 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 15:15:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 265 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.44 From: "dee1387" X-Originating-IP: 66.57.34.83 Subject: Thanks everyone X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=154973574 X-Yahoo-Profile: dee1387 I just want to give everyone a huge thanks. Many of you have provided me links to wonderful resources to get me started. Looks like I have a lot of reading ahead of me... I should think about taking a speed reading course. :) Thanks for the warm welcome, Dee From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Sat Jan 01 07:32:14 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86288 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 15:32:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 15:32:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.50) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 15:32:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n21.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 15:32:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.169] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 15:32:09 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 15:32:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 636 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.50 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 83.85.214.69 Subject: Re: Thanks everyone X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "dee1387" wrote: > > I just want to give everyone a huge thanks. Many of you have > provided me links to wonderful resources to get me started. Looks > like I have a lot of reading ahead of me... I should think about > taking a speed reading course. :) > > Thanks for the warm welcome, > Dee Hallo Dee; Here from the Netherlands I wish you and all others a wonderfull year 2005, with much inspiration. If there is time left: don't forget to read the little book of Radha Burnier - REGENERATION. There you will find helpfull stuff for the future. With Greetings of Christina. From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Jan 01 13:26:31 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94786 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 21:26:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 21:26:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.51) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 21:26:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n22.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 21:26:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.152] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 21:26:26 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:26:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000b01c4ef2e$5f529c00$40deb3d1@DALLAS> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 32125 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.51 From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 4.226.99.188 Subject: Re: Part 1 Remember the end of Atlantis? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "W.Dallas TenBroeck"=20 wrote: > Dec 31 2004 > =A0 > =A0 > =A0 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 WHERE THE RISHIS WERE > =A0 > =A0 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The= Rishis were the sacred Bards, the=20 Saints, the > great Adepts > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Kno= wn to the Hindus, who gave great=20 spiritual > impulses in the > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Pas= t and are said to sometimes=20 reincarnate, and who > at one time > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 liv= ed on the earth among men. > =A0 > =A0 > "The world is made of seas and islands.=A0 For continents are only=20 great lands > water-encircled.=A0 Men must ever live upon sea or land, then,=20 unless they > abide in air, and if=A0 they live in the air, they are not men as we=20 know > them." > =A0 > Thus I thought as the great ship steamed slowly into the port of a=20 small > island, and before the anchor fell the whole scene seemed to=20 change and the > dazzling light of the past blotted out the dark pictures of modern > civilization.=A0 Instead of an English ship I was standing on an=20 ancient > vehicle propelled by force unknown today, until the loud noises of > disembarkation roused me once again. > =A0 > But landed now, I was standing on the hill overlooking the town=20 and bay.=A0 > The strange light and the curious vehicle again obtained mastery=20 over sense > and eye, while the whole majesty of forgotten years rolled in from=20 the > Ocean.=A0 Vainly did modern education struggle and soar:=A0 I let the=20 curtain > drop upon the miserable present=85. > =A0 > =A0 > =A0 > Now softly sings the water as it rolls against the shore, with the=20 sun but > one hour old shining upon its surface.=A0 But, far off, what is that=20 spot > coming nearer from the West, followed by another and another until=20 over the > horizon rise hundreds, and now some are so near that they are=20 plainly seen?=A0 > The same strange vehicles as that I saw at first.=A0 Like birds they=20 fly > through the air.=A0 They come slowly now, and some have been brought=20 still on > the land.=A0 They light on the earth with a softness that seems=20 nearly human, > with a skill that is marvelous, without any shock or rebound.=A0=20 > =A0 > From them alight men of noble mien who address me as friends, and=20 one more > noble than the others seems to say, "Wouldst thou know of all=20 this?=A0 Then > come," as he turns again to his vehicle that stands there like a=20 bird in > wait to be off. > =A0 > "Yes, I will go;" and I felt that the past and the present were=20 but one, and > knew what I should see, yet could not remember it but with a=20 vagueness that > blotted out all the details. > =A0 > We entered the swift intelligently-moving vehicle, and then it=20 rose up on > the air's wide-spreading arms and flew again fast to the West,=20 where the > water was still softly singing to the beams of the sun.=A0 The=20 horizon slowly > rose and the Island behind us was hidden by the sea from our=20 sight.=A0 And > still as onward we flew to the Occident, many more birds made by=20 manlike > that we were in flew by us as if in haste for the soft-singing=20 waters > lapping the shore of that peak of the sea mountain we had left in=20 the > Orient.=A0 Flying=A0 too high at first we heard no sound from the sea,=20 but soon > a damp vapor that blew in my face from the salt deep showed that=20 we were > descending, and then spoke my friend. > =A0 > "Look below and around and before you!" > =A0 > =A0 > Down there were the roar and rush of mad billows that reached=20 toward the > sky, vast hollows that sucked in a world.=A0 Black clouds shut out=20 the great > sun, and I saw that the crust of the earth was drawn in to her own > subterranean depths.=A0 Turning now to the master, I saw that he=20 heard my > unuttered question.=A0 He said, > =A0 > "A cycle has ended.=A0 The great bars that kept back the sea have=20 been broken > down by their weight.=A0 From these we have come and are coming." > =A0 > Then faster sailed our bird, and I saw that a great Island was=20 perishing.=A0 > What was left of the shore still crumbled, still entered the mouth=20 of the > sea.=A0 And there were cars of the air just the same as that I was=20 in, only > dark and unshining, vainly trying to rise with their captains;=A0=20 rising > slowly, then falling, and then swallowed up.=20 > =A0 > But here we have rushed further in where the water has not=20 overflowed, and > now we see that few are the bright cars of air that are waiting=20 about while > their captains are entering and spoiling the mighty cars of the=20 men whose > clothing is red and whose bodies, so huge and amazing, are=20 sleeping as if > from the fumes of a drug. > =A0 > As these great red men are slumbering, the light-stepping captains=20 with > sun-colored cloaks are finishing the work of destruction.=A0 And=20 now, swiftly > though we came, the waters have rushed on behind us, the salt=20 breath of the > all-devouring deep sweeps over us.=A0 The sun-colored captains enter=20 their > light air-cars and rise with a sweep that soon leaves the=20 sleepers, now > waking, behind them.=A0 The huge red-coated giants hear the roar of=20 the waters > and feel the cold waves roll about them.=A0 They enter their cars,=20 but only to > find all their efforts are wasted.=A0 Soon the crumbling earth no=20 longer > supports them, and all by an inrushing wave are engulfed, drawn=20 into the > mouth of the sea, and the treacherous ocean with roars as of=20 pleasure in > conquest has claimed the last race of that Island. > =A0 > But one has escaped of all the red giants, and slowly but surely=20 his car > sailed up, up, as if to elude the sun-colored men who were=20 spoilers. > =A0 > Then, loud, clear, and thrilling swelled out a note of marvelous=20 power from > my captain, and back came a hundred of those brilliant fast cars=20 that were > speeding off eastward.=A0 Now they pursue the heavy, vast, slow- moving car of > the giant, surround it, and seem to avoid its attacks.=A0 Then again=20 swells > that note from my master as our car hung still on its wings. It=20 was a > signal, obeyed in an instant. > =A0 > One brilliant, small sharp-pointed car is directed full at the red=20 giant's > vehicle.=A0 Propelled by a force that exceeds the swift bullet, it=20 pierces the > other, itself, too, is broken and falls on the waves with its=20 victim.=A0 > Trembling I gazed down below, but my captain said kindly, > =A0 > "He is safe, for he entered another bright car at the signal.=A0 All=20 those > red-coated men are now gone, and that last was the worse and the=20 greatest." > =A0 > Back eastward once more through the salt spray and the mist until=20 soon the > bright light shone again and the Island rose over the sea with the > soft-singing water murmuring back to the sun.=A0 We alighted, and=20 then, as I > turned, the whole fleet of swift sailing cars disappeared, and out=20 in the > sky flashed a bright streak of sun-colored light that formed into=20 letters > which read: > =A0 > "This is where the Rishis were before the chalk cliffs of Albion=20 rose out of > the wave.=A0 They were but are not." > =A0 > And loud, clear and thrilling rose that note I had heard in the=20 car of swift > pinions.=A0 It thrilled me with sadness, for past was the glory and=20 naught for > the future was left but a destiny. > =A0 > Bryan Kinnavan (Wm. Q. Judge) > THE PATH,=A0 January 1891. > =A0 > ----------------------------------------------- > =A0 > THEOSOPHY teaches: >=20 > =A0 > 998,100 B C Atlantean continent began sinking=20 > [SD II 10, 141, 144, ISIS I 557, 593].=20 > =A0 > 9,664 BC The last Island related to Atlantis, ["Posedonis"]=20 is said > to have sunk=20 > [ML 155, =A0=A0=A0SD II 5, 8, 406, 444fn, =A0=A0=A0ISIS I > 589-94]. >=20 > 1,628 c Thera (Santorini) Volcano Erupts (Tree Ring Dating) > [ L A Times, Aug 29 1996 ] > [ End of Minoan Civilization, and=20 tidal > waves > overwhelm coasts of Eastern Mediterranean.] > =A0 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > The vast tsunami in the Indian Ocean that has just been=20 experienced, [Dec. > 26 2004] seems to relate in some particulars of geological=20 catastrophe to > the story above. The suffering of individuals is of course=20 enormous and > deserves all our efforts to help and succor. >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > =A0 > It should be noted that the records of the SECRET DOCTRINE are not=20 limited > by (or to) the present geographical outlines of the configuration=20 of our > present continents.=A0=20 > =A0 > It may be noted that the present "plate-tectonics" hypothesis is=20 not > endorsed by the S D.=A0 This plausible hypothesis has recently=20 engaged the > attention of geologists and geographers.=A0 It advances=A0 the concept=20 that our > present known continental patterns are fixed to their "plates."=20 These in > turn "float" and gradually move on a softer subterranean core of a=20 more > fluidic mass of hot rock; and the result is that they have=20 participated > (without altering shape) over millions of years in "continental=20 drift."=A0=A0 > But, this is not a theory that is confirmed by the esoteric=20 history of our > Earth, as given in the SECRET DOCTRINE. > =A0 > In tracing the past history and movements of the RACES, the land=20 masses > follow the order of evolution of the RACES from 1st to the 5th.=A0=20 The book > The SECRET DOCTRINE, does not take into account the location and=20 fate of > many islands and peninsulas since the face of the Earth has=20 changed many > times, and the Poles have been inverted several times [SD II 350=20 353 360 368 > 432-3 785-6 436]. > =A0 > The last serious geographical and geological change occurred=20 around 12,000=A0 > BC [SD II 8-9] and was followed by the submergence of Posedonis=20 (9,566 BC).=A0 > Change in the elevation of the continents and islands is not=20 always violent > states the S D [SD II 787fn]. > =A0 > =A0 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =A0 > =A0 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ATLANTIS, LEMURIA, GIANTS, ETC=85. > =A0 > =A0 > PART=A0 1=A0 -- > =A0 > =A0=A0 > ATLANTIS,=A0=A0 LEMURIA,=A0=A0 GIANTS,=A0=A0=20 >=20 >=20 > [Part II contains Geological chronology,=A0=A0=20 > Theosophical Chronology, etc. ] >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > ---------------- > =A0 > PART=A0 1=A0 =3D > =A0 > =A0 > Mme. Blavatsky in the SECRET DOCTRINE,=A0 Vol. I pp. 153 - 205=20 outlines > the early ROUNDS whereby the circling and evolving hosts of Mankind > pass through the experiences of many degrees of matter until they > reach in the middle, the 4th Round, the most gross.=A0 If one refers=20 to > the diagram on p. 200=A0 (SD I) it will be seen that this is the=20 balance > point were the "matter" being evolved is at its densest. > =A0 > We as a host of "Human" Monads have just past this mid-point.=A0 At=20 the > Mid point which occurred about 18,618,886 tears ago (SD I 150fn)=20 the > significant event called the LIGHTING UP OF MANAS (mind)=20 occurred.=A0 In > the 2nd volume of the SD, HPB reviews all these in far greater=20 detail. > =A0 > =A0 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 OUR POSITION NOW > =A0 > Our Round is the 4th Round and our Globe is the 4th ("D").=A0 On=20 Globe D > so far 4 "Races" have been evolved.=A0 The 3rd was named "Lemurian, " > the 4th, "Atlantean," and the 5th (ours) is named "Aryan" (noble). > The LIGHTING UP OF MANAS occurred during the mid-point of the 3rd > Root-race (Lemurian) [SD II 154-5, 167, 79] > =A0 > =A0 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS AND RACES > =A0 > Questions concerning the past of Mankind and the old races that had > been given names such as Atlanteans, Lemurians, etc. =A0relate to=20 time > periods, and the nature of geological time=A0 measuring, also, the > chronology of the SECRET DOCTRINE was asked about. > =A0 > In considering the past and the attempts to measure and evaluate=20 such > misty legends as appear to envelop Lemuria and Atlantis -- those > periods when we used Lemurian and Atlantean bodies -- for Occultism > holds that all of us -- we -- as immortal EGOS, were the same > EGO-Minds that were then evolving in those periods and used those > bodies.=A0 What does Volume. II of the SECRET DOCTRINE, when compared > with modern Geological periods offer us > =A0 > It is largely > =A0 > 1.=A0 the establishing of the facts that Esoteric and Oriental > Literature and philosophy have recorded in regard to the > evolution of our Earth.=A0 This covers each of the first 3 ROUNDS > (3 times around the 7 GLOBES) and, specifically, it deals with > the history of evolution in this, the 4th ROUND. > =A0 > In this 4th ROUND it deals with the most recent time period named > by HPB in the SD the 4th GLOBE [see Diagram SD I 200].=A0 One must > remember that these (ROUNDS, GLOBES, RACES, SUB-RACES) are > measures of time. > =A0 > Another fact that esotericism speaks of is that there have been > great changes in material (PHYSICAL), psychological (MIND, > FEELINGS, EMOTIONS) and spiritual (MONADIC) development.=A0=20 > =A0 > These are traced by occultism and a summary is offered to us,=20 together with > explanations in Vol. 2 of the S D.=A0 We can, by reading what is=20 offered > there, learn in greater detail about our own past history.=A0 About=20 that which > occurred during those vast periods when we incarnated again and=20 again in > that "past." > =A0 > In S D =A0I, =A0p. 181,=A0 HPB gives facts about the three lines of=20 Evolution.=A0 > She describes them and names them: > =A0 > 1.=A0 Spiritual (or MONADIC). > 2.=A0 Intellectual (or Manasic), and > 3.=A0 Physical. (or material, physical bodily forms). > =A0 > It will be found that the 2nd Vol. of the S D focuses in still=20 greater > detail on the 4 RACES that have preceded ours in this Round. It=20 provides > information concerning our evolution there and upon the=20 development of mind, > psyche and Soul.=A0=20 > =A0 > The physical side of evolution and its remains as fossils and=20 monuments =96 > contrasting with the Scientific views of geology and archaeology=20 are also > discussed as of the time when HPB wrote which was over 120 years=20 ago. >=20 >=20 > REINCARNATION OF THE IMMORTAL MONAD > =A0 > It is very important to realize ( and carry this in mind during the > following consideration) that the Reincarnating EGO (Atma-Buddhi- Manas) of > each human being is an IMMORTAL > (as a MONAD). > =A0 > It (WE) have been named the ETERNAL PILGRIMS.=A0=20 > =A0 > It [the Monad] moves from body to body, as the eras and races pass=20 in time, > and all the development of faculties are embodied in the character=20 and the > talents of each of us.=A0 In all cases there is an increment, and an=20 improving > of our range of experience.=20 > =A0 > We can trace a continual widening of our comprehension of the=20 Universe, and > an intuitional inquiry into the causes of both our diversity and=20 coupled > with that the paradox of, our close unity.=A0=20 > =A0 > Ultimately, we find that the UNITY of ALL dawns on us as a=20 potential and > then as an actuality.=A0 It is a most wonderful prospect and gives=20 to each of > us a sense of purpose, of > dignity, and of an importance, which, once grasped cannot be=20 relinquished.=A0 > We find that the brotherhood of the immortal Monads is the basis=20 for all > relationships -- there is a commonality, a sharing, of spirit,=20 mind and > matter, even though we may try to guard that which we think is=20 solely "our > own." > =A0 > Therefore, we, who now use 5th RACE, "Aryan Race" bodies, were the=20 same EGOS > that used the old "Atlantean" bodies (through each of its 7-fold=20 Races), > and, the still older "Lemurian" bodies (and their 7-fold RACE > developments).=A0=A0=20 > =A0 > When we speak of those old RACES we are speaking of ourselves when=20 we lived > in them and used them.=A0 We are trying to look into our own past=20 history.=A0 > When we visit Cyclopean monuments, we are revisiting buildings in=20 which we > may have had a hand in their original construction or subsequent=20 renovation > and restoration down the eras of time. > =A0 > Our present human bodies--that we are using today--each has in its=20 past as > heredity, one or a mixture of the Sub-Races of the 5th RACE.=A0 It,=20 the 5th > Race, named "Aryan" (or Noble), is said to be about 1,050,000=20 years old [ SD > II 141, 144-5, 395].=A0 The Aryan race arose among the later sub- races of the > Atlanteans, and gradually separated from that older root stock.=A0=20 There are > still human groups and tribes whose heredity can be traced to the > Atlanteans; and even to the last sub-races of the Lemuro- Atlanteans.=A0 It > takes vast ages for all the traits and characteristics of a great=20 Race to > die out completely.=A0 All this complexity is explained in detail in=20 SD Vol. > II. > =A0 > The 3rd Race (Round 4 - ours) was named Lemurian. >=20 > The 4th Race (Round 4 - ours) was named Atlantean. >=20 >=20 > =A0 > LEMURIA >=20 >=20 > LEMURIA, as a continent, is said to have begun slipping below the > ocean 4,242,352 years back (as of 1888)=A0 [ SD I 439fn]. >=20 >=20 > ATLANTIS > =A0 > 998,100 years ago the Atlantean continent began sinking [SD II > 10, 141, 144, ISIS I 557, 593]=A0=20 >=20 > The last Island related to Atlantis, ["Posedonis"] is said to have=20 sunk > 9,664=A0 BC=A0 [ML 155,=A0 SD II 5, 8, 406, 444fn, ISIS I 589-94]. > =A0 > In the SD we can find that a special date is drawn attention to=20 (SD I 150 > Fn).=A0 It is over 18 million years ago, when the Mind of humanity=20 is said to > have been "lighted up."=A0 [ see SD II 167, 254-5, 70-80,=A0 SD I=20 150fn. ]. > =A0 > Since the description of the facts found narrated in ancient > oriental literature and the secret books of the Occult > Fraternity, runs in many ways contrary to the hypothesis and > theories of our modern=A0Archaeology, one finds that much of the > 2nd Volume of the SD is a great polemic, and many arguments are > advanced in contrasting and opposing views:=A0 the theories of > Archaeology and the FACTS of Occult Science and History. >=20 >=20 > ARCHAEOLOGY, GEOLOGY, PALEONTOLOGY > =A0 > Our Sciences of Archaeology, Geology, Paleontology, etc... > are hardly 250 years old.=A0 Looking at physical evidence only, > theories were devised (based on that material evidence alone) to > account for the evolution of living beings on Earth.=A0 There was, > and is, an on-going conflict between "evolutionists" and > "creationists." > =A0 > Geology provides details concerning the effect of climate on > minerals, plants and the fossils of animals and humans, and > archaeology employs these as clues to the timing of evolutionary > events.=A0 It is all based on physical evidence.=A0 The evolution of > consciousness, mind, intelligence, instinct and intuition are > invisible, hence the Scientific speculations based on solely the > physical evidence of change cannot possibly give an accurate view > of their separate evolution. >=20 >=20 > ASTRAL CONCRETIZATIONS > =A0 > When we look at the evidence of geological change, the S D states > that in some cases we may also be looking at the concretized > remains and evidence of evolutionary change in the ASTRAL > periods. Thus some fossils and strata reflect traces of those > ancient=A0 Astral conditions and its changes during those past eras > in terms of our present highly condensed material -- which now > clothes the original Astral forms.=A0 [One might consider (using > an analogy) that the space between the Atomic nuclei and their > peripheral electrons was even wider in those early days than they > are to day, thus making the appearance of "matter" far more > tenuous--"misty" to us as a perspective.=A0 As matter "condensed" > so did the Astral fossils and strata.] > =A0 > The great difference between Occult and material Science in this, > it lies in a grasp of the nature of the early periods of Astral > development and its changes prior to our present material > physical condition.=A0 The early Rounds of our Earth (One, Two, > Three to the middle of the 4th ROUND) are evolutionary > periods involving only the Astral material and its progress. > =A0 > Minerals, plants animals and mankind were all astral in form, and > just as "solid" to each other then, in those periods, as we are > today solid to one another in this present condensed "matter" > that we use all the time.=A0 Physical Matter, such as we now are > familiar with, and live in, became gradually more concretely > manifest and visible in the 4th GLOBE of this, our=A0 ROUND (which > is the 4th in the World series of Rounds).=A0 The 4th GLOBE, of > this 4th ROUND, being the densest -- which is where we are, as > "forms," now.). > =A0 > In this our 4th GLOBE, the 7 RACES which form it, also, the > sub-divisions of time, recapitulate the entire process of > development (as the fetus does in the womb) of the 3 earlier > ROUNDS. > =A0 > RACES One, Two and Three (Lemurian) up to the middle of the 3rd > were largely Astral forms -- of Astral matter, and these have > gradually consolidated as the material conditions changed and > densified around them. [ SD I 142, ] > =A0 > The Astral form is electro-magnetic in character and for each > individual intelligence (be this mineral, plant, animal or human) > there is a specific and individual "force-field" to which > cooperative materials are attracted.=A0 These assist in making a > coherent bodily form.=A0 The "materials" are also Monads. > =A0 > Thus, the Astral is held in esotericism to always precede the=20 physical. > =A0 > If one considers what Science teaches us today about the > constitution of the atom, we can see that if we analyze our > physical body to its ultimate nature we are left with > "force-fields" that are "atomic" in nature and quality.=A0 But that > Power which draws specific atoms to form molecules, cells, and > physical structures into a living body, is yet to be located, and > subject to analysis.=A0 Yet, it exists since we are here, using our > bodies and very conscious in them of both feelings and thoughts. > =A0 > At our present evolutionary stage, the astral form/entity is > entirely interior to the physical.=A0 It forms the mold or > framework on which the physical molecules, cells, and other > physical structures form a coherent cooperative, in which an > Intelligence (called the Human Personality) can reside.=A0 It is > far more resistant to change than physical matter and serves as > the continuing basis for our appearance, from childhood to old > age. >=20 >=20 > BRAIN > =A0 > There is an astral BRAIN=A0 which is the true center of > Intelligence, and where memory is recorded.=A0 The physical Brain > changes and alters from second to second, (as does the living > matter of the whole body) and so, the Brain, is constantly > renewed as it deteriorates and that which needs removal is > replaced.=A0 It is the physical tool of the Astral, the True Brain. >=20 >=20 > MIND > =A0 > In Man's form, a MIND (in addition to the feeling, sensitive > Personality) also resides [SD II 167, 79-80, 254-5].=A0 Man's form > has associated with it, all the impulse of a well-developed > instinctual and desire nature.=A0 The Mind in man is of the > Spiritual essence that inheres in Him; it is THIS (the MONAD -- > the HIGHER SELF) that broods over each of our personalities as we > live our daily life.=A0 We can thus see that no matter how many > fossils are discovered, the astral, the mental and the spiritual > heredity and evolution cannot be deduced from them. > =A0 > Because of this HPB, had to draw comparisons with the facts known > to Occultism and those tentative theories and hypotheses that > were being advanced by archaeology, and the scientific theories > on evolution and heredity that were current in her day -- and > which, as is usually the case, became accepted as "true" and as a > "basis" on which to further pursue study and deposit fresh and > additional facts as they were unearthed.=A0 [One ought to become > familiar with the 3 books written by Michael Cremo and Richard > Thompson regarding FORBIDDEN ARCHAEOLOGY -- which=20 > uncover some of the data that archaeology has been concealed =96=20 > if it did not fit those theories. This has retarded real progress.] > =A0 > Since HPB's time, there have been some changes brought on by > fresh discoveries and technical improvements, in the views and > dating of modern Science, but the basic distinction between the > physical and the astral, the physical and the intellectual, and > the physical and the Spiritual consciousness has never yet been > derived from fossils.=A0 Nor have their evolution been traced > except hypothetically. > =A0 > The general theories current when the S D was written over 120=20 years ago, > are still in place, but thanks to dating techniques the antiquity=20 of early > times and geological ages have been extended and broadened.=A0 In=20 the 2nd part > of this essay we offer some data (in terms of times) for=20 comparison on this. > =A0 > =A0 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 GRADUALISM > =A0 > During HPB's time another theory (besides Lyell's 'Gradualism')=20 concerning > evolution was also under consideration in France, based on the=20 observations > and hypothesis of the eminent scientist Georges Cuvier (1769-1832). > =A0 > =A0 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 CATASTROPHISM IN EARLIER ERAS > =A0 > Cuvier as a Zoologist and Chancellor of the University of Paris=20 developed > from his observations of fossils found in old geological strata=20 the concept > of "Catastrophism."=A0 Great global cataclysms were seen to=20 substantially > alter the progress of evolution from time to time. A perspective=20 is needed > to view these. > =A0 > Geologists have revealed many great catastrophic changes that have=20 left > their mark=A0 on global geology.=A0 For example:=A0 (These catastrophic=20 time-frame > estimates are made by modern Geology.) > =A0 > Early CAMBRIAN Age (estimated at 570 million years ago).=20 Unicellular forms > seem suddenly to give way to multicellular ones showing mineralized > skeletons=A0 -- trilobites, etc... The cause for this change is not=20 known. > =A0 > End of the ORDOVICIAN Period (estimated at 425 million years ago).=20 The cause > of a vast mass extinction that occurred then is yet to be=20 determined.=A0 This > was apparently accompanied by a long ice age. > =A0 > Close of the DEVONIAN Age (estimated at 365 million years ago).=20 Another mass > extinction of species occurred -- cause yet to be determined. > =A0 > The PALEOZOIC Era closed (estimated at 225 million years ago). A=20 most > violent mass extinction (including the ancient trilobites)=20 occurred leaving > only about 5% of all species alive.=A0=A0 It is theorized that the > supercontinent "Pangea" -- "mother" of the present continents was=20 then in > place.=A0 Water levels diminished, and sea levels lowered=20 dramatically=A0 > Massive volcanic action seems to have taken place following that. > =A0 > TRIASSIC Period ended=A0 (estimated at 190 million years ago).=20 Another mass > extinction of living species was observed. This may have been=20 triggered it > has been theorized, by the impact of=A0 large meteorite or a small=20 comet in > the area of Quebec's Lake Manicougan (60 mile wide crater).=A0 The=20 subsequent > ice age caused a massive die-off of living forms.=A0 It is theorized=20 that the > hypothetical link (Cotylosaurus) between the dinosaurs and the=20 mammals and > reptiles was destroyed at that time. > =A0 > 65 million years ago another comet/meteorite was also estimated to=20 have > collided with the Earth and the resulting devastation caused the=20 death of > most of the Earth's species.=A0 This included the remaining=A0=20 dinosaurs and > reptiles.=A0 A world wide layer of Iridium between 2 layers of=20 limestone may > have been deposited, as Iridium, rare on Earth, is largely present=20 in > meteorites [1980, Alvarez].=A0 Mammals survived and a new=20 distribution of > fauna bloomed after this. > =A0 > 35 million years ago saw possibly two impacts (one under the=20 Chesapeake Bay, > and another in Siberia) -- that triggered the death of most of the=20 animal > species of the Earth, as a great ice age ensued.=A0 . > =A0 > This catalog causes one to observe that long periods of relative=20 stability > can be traced by geologists to be interrupted by violent events:=20 floods or > volcanism.=A0 These upheavals alter the course of Life as a whole. > =A0 > Archaeologists and Geologists wonder if a new era and change in=20 quality of > life is marked by the rapid development of new species.=A0 For=20 example it is > noticed that fossils indicate a rapid rise in the mammalian=20 population of > the Earth following the general demise of the dinosaurs some 65=20 million > years ago. Later still, human fossils begin to be found in strata=20 that seems > to be around 4 million years old. > =A0 > In HPB's time a very grudging 40 to 100,000 years was allowed for=20 the > emergence of the human skeletal frame, presumably from that of the=20 apes, > which so closely resembled them. > =A0 > But the S D teaches that the Apes are the descendents of man and=20 not its > predecessors or progenitors.=A0 [ see SD, Vol. I 186, 190-1;=A0 II=20 87fn, 189, > 193, 678, 689 ] > =A0 >=20 > MAN IS PRIMITIVE -- APE-FORMS ARE SPECIALIZED DESCENDENTS >=20 > Scientists of HPB's time like Mr. De Quatrefages and others,=20 challenged this > "descent from the Apes theory" because anatomically man's skeleton=20 can be > shown to precede that of the Apes. [ S D =A0=A0II =A087fn, 287, 315fn,=20 665fn, > 666-8, 677-8, 680-5] > =A0 > To explain this:=A0 Man's skeletal form is far more primitive, and=20 the > skeletons of the Apes show specializations that could only be=20 derived by > environmental requirements placed on them.=A0 Whereas the human=20 skeleton can > be shown to remain unchanged in structure no matter how old the=20 strata may > be from which his fossils may be found.=A0 The antiquity of the=20 strata shows > no variation in man's skeleton.=A0 Further the special=20 characteristics of > various human skeletal features can be found today among us.=A0 We=20 are also > aware that today with our current highly technological=20 civilization, there > are savage tribes and races that still co-exist with us in > South America, Australia, Africa, Polynesia, (not to mention the > "inner-city" jungles that we have created in our large cities). >=20 >=20 > BRAIN SIZE > =A0 > An additional factor is the size of the brain.=A0 It has to be noted=20 that > Man's cranial capacity, the average -- including those we=20 term 'savages' -- > is 100 cubic inches or more.=A0 This is about 3 times as large as=20 the brain > volume of the largest Ape, the Gorilla, which measures on the=20 average, 31 > cubic inches or less. [SD II 193fn, 661, 676, 682]. > =A0 > Giant human skeletons are mentioned in SD II 9 151 194-5 278-9=20 293fn > 330 337 347-8 409 SD II 752-6 774-5=A0 Mahatma Letters, bottom of p.=20 2] > =A0 > [ Close of Part 1 of this study and report.] >=20 > =A0 > Part II TO FOLLOW >=20 > =A0 > =A0Best wishes, > =A0 > Dallas Hi Dallas, This is interesting in light of the wave of Christmas that struck=20 Indonesia not only because Atlantis is invoked, much of the history=20 of this world is tied intimately to that life as little as others=20 are aware of it matters not. Also, even if HPB does not mention it=20 the great Tsumani of 1883 struck just 5 years before the publication=20 of the SD but also while she was working on it as an indication of=20 the great energy she/he released in writing and being a part of=20 human progress.=20 The SD was a blow to materialism and this last wave of 2004 makes=20 1883 look like a picnic--we can only watch for an even greater blow=20 to current materialism in the next 10 years. Netemara > =A0 From eugenewilliams_9@hotmail.com Sat Jan 01 13:56:15 2005 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 29296 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 21:56:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 21:56:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.48) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 21:56:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n19.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 21:56:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.172] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 21:56:15 -0000 X-Sender: eugenewilliams_9@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8224 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2005 21:46:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2005 21:46:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.44) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2005 21:46:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n10.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 21:46:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2005 21:46:11 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 21:46:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1156 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-system X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.44 From: "chavisboy25" X-Originating-IP: 65.8.250.166 Subject: New member. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=209875290 X-Yahoo-Profile: chavisboy25 X-eGroups-Approved-By: eldon_tucker via web; 01 Jan 2005 21:56:10 -0000 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.48 Hello Theos-Talk, My name is Eugene James Williams. I was born and raised in Fort Pierce, FL., in which I'm still a resident. My divine name is Osiris. I'm 25 years old. I discovered Theosophy (God-wisdom) during my 6 year incarceration in state prison. The knowledge, wisdom, and understanding of Theosophy were my guide and comforter during my incarceration. I was released from prison on Sept. 16, 2003, and since then, I have earned a vocational trade in carpentry; and I'm currently a student at Indian River Community College. My major is legal assistant. I'm a member of the Theosophical Society. I've been studying the arcane teachings or ancient mysteries since I was 18 years old. I love the teachings and I love the concept of Universal Brotherhood, which is a fact in nature. I'm looking forward to building this continual pyramid we call Theosophy. All blessings- OSIRIS. From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sat Jan 01 16:47:51 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8525 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2005 00:47:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2005 00:47:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.12) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2005 00:47:48 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [69.9.96.37]) by mta2.GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 26411252 for ; Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:46:11 -0600 CST Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20050101184526.0569ed30@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:48:25 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5424330E X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.12 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World New member. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Welcome to the mail list. Feel free to post any questions or responses and all of us benefit from the messages we read here. This is one of few places where it is universal in that it has participants who belong to one or the other theosophical organizations or none and all of us a just simply students of theosophy. mkr At 09:46 PM 01/01/05 +0000, chavisboy25 wrote: >Hello Theos-Talk, > My name is Eugene James Williams. I was born and raised in Fort >Pierce, FL., in which I'm still a resident. My divine name is >Osiris. I'm 25 years old. I discovered Theosophy (God-wisdom) during >my 6 year incarceration in state prison. The knowledge, wisdom, and >understanding of Theosophy were my guide and comforter during my >incarceration. > I was released from prison on Sept. 16, 2003, and since then, I >have earned a vocational trade in carpentry; and I'm currently a >student at Indian River Community College. My major is legal >assistant. > I'm a member of the Theosophical Society. I've been studying the >arcane teachings or ancient mysteries since I was 18 years old. I >love the teachings and I love the concept of Universal Brotherhood, >which is a fact in nature. I'm looking forward to building this >continual pyramid we call Theosophy. > >All blessings- OSIRIS. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 12/30/04 From silva_cass@yahoo.com Sat Jan 01 18:35:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: silva_cass@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78186 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2005 02:35:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2005 02:35:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.94.79) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2005 02:35:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 7089 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jan 2005 02:35:10 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=i80gykhV7kb08qYl+ksyNQGGoFfIA7NB/GljGC+XAUHwS7id2pBbT/InwriSM88ubdzKEiaowoEsSzTc8bAPQ0Fpsl43PuuqN5xLIup0t/cMUWL43tvubCw9nm9YIGpMGWZHvEXkXI0nIDF4fwcXxsPetFuomwx21Vga+bAedxA= ; Message-ID: <20050102023510.7087.qmail@web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.28.163.14] by web90108.mail.scd.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 01 Jan 2005 18:35:10 PST Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:35:10 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <41D4CA6B.3070900@idirect.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.94.79 From: Cass Silva Subject: Re: Theos-World re forms of expression X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=203519531 X-Yahoo-Profile: silva_cass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heu Mauri Just had a thought, perhaps we could clone HPB for you? Cass Mauri wrote: Cass wrote, in part: > Thanks, Cass, for the info about Devachan. Seems as if my "I wish" in that post might've failed in its intended limited function as a hypothetical/speculative tone-setter of sorts for what followed (forms of expression in Theosophical discussions), and no more. Sorry if I gave the impression that I was necromantically potificating in terms of that "I wish." Apologetically, Mauri Yahoo! Groups Links __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From compiler@wisdomworld.org Sat Jan 01 23:00:30 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12128 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2005 07:00:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2005 07:00:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ams013.ftl.affinity.com) (216.219.253.195) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2005 07:00:28 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([68.55.92.204]) by ams013.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id <376171-29539>; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 01:59:40 -0500 Message-ID: <41D79B2F.229D754F@wisdomworld.org> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 01:56:48 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 216.219.253.195 From: Compiler Subject: "ANCIENT AND MODERN SCIENCE" & "SCIENCE AND THE SECRET DOCTRINE" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld These two very informative series of articles from THEOSOPHY magazine are for everyone who is interested in the important overall subject of "SCIENCE IN THE 'LIGHT OF THEOSOPHY'", but who haven't yet read them. This first series, entitled "Ancient and Modern Science", is found in the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book of 166 articles that I've compiled (which also contains other articles about science). It should be very useful and helpful to both newcomers and fairly new students of Theosophy. The link that gets you to it follows the below listing. After you click on it just scroll down the list of numbered articles in the book, until you run into this 7-part series. This is what you are looking for (of course, each one will be a link when you get there): =============================================== Note: The next seven (7) articles are a series: (25) Ancient and Modern Science--Chemistry: Part I (26) Ancient and Modern Science--Physics: Part II (27) Ancient and Modern Science--Biology: Part III (28) Ancient and Modern Science--Astronomy: Part IV (29) Ancient and Modern Science--Geology: Part V (30) Ancient and Modern Science--Anthropology: Part VI (31) Ancient and Modern Science--Psychology: Part VII ---------------------------------------- The Index page for the 166-article book: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html ======================================== This next very important series is found in the "Science in the 'Light of Theosophy'" section of the "Additional Articles" index page (which also contains other science-related articles): ======================================== "SCIENCE AND THE SECRET DOCTRINE" (103-part series): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/ScienceAndTheSecretDoctrine/index.html Technical note: If for some reason the above long link is broken, here's the link to the "Science in the 'Light of Theosophy'" section (which is the 4th one on the "Additional" articles index page) where the link to the series is the first one that is listed: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#4 ======================================== Dear newcomers to Theosophy: I sincerely do hope that my web site offers a well-rounded overall view of Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement. The 3 main links to everything on it are found below. Please know that I'm only the compiler of all the articles found on my web site; I'm not a scholar; and also that I personally do not like to take part in conversations, even though I do hope that what I present from time to time will help a little in the discussions being carried on by others. So please do not be insulted when I do not respond if someone addresses me, or addresses anything that is found in any of the articles on my web site; I leave that for others to deal with if they want to -- whether pro, con, neutral, friendly or unfriendly. John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added (which contains 18 sections that can each be clicked on at the top of the page in order to go directly down to them, as well as to get the link to any particular section that you may want to use in a posting on a discussion board, or in an e-mail to someone): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html "PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT FORUM": This next link is to the most updated version of my economic proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering world that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org ------- From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Jan 02 01:17:41 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55263 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2005 09:17:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2005 09:17:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m14.mx.aol.com) (64.12.138.204) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2005 09:17:40 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id r.147.3c572a90 (3972) for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2005 04:17:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <147.3c572a90.2f09162b@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 04:17:31 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.138.204 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Newbie here X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 You can also read the Key to Theosophy online at: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-hp.htm In a message dated 12/31/04 6:51:53 PM, ramadoss@gbronline.com writes: >Hi, Welcome to the group. Glad to hear how you found about theosophy. >One of the best FAQ's on theosophy is a book by HP Blavatsky - "Key to >Theosophy". You can get a copy on-line or buy it from a bookstore or ebay. >I am sure it would answer a lot of questions. >This forum has participants from all over the world and all are student of >theosophy. So feel free to post any messages and surely you will get many >responses and hopefully they will help you. > >mkr > >At 02:37 PM 12/31/04 +0000, you wrote: >>Hello Theos-Talk, >>My friends call me Dee, living in Fayetteville, NC. I'm 31 years >>old and I had lost myself somewhere and I have been on a mission to >>discover me for the past year. A few months ago I discovered - or >>finally come to terms - that one of the reasons that I'm having >>trouble with discovering myself is that I have a form of >>depression. But for the past year or so I've been conducting my >>search from a spiritual perspective - and a lot of therapy sessions. >>In the past year I purchased several books such as, different >>versions of the Bible, the Septuagint, the Gnostic Bible, books on >>paganism, I Ching, The Idiot's Guide to World Religions, meditation, >>etc. Every time I went into the book store, there was this one >>particular 2 book volume set that, for some reason, I was drawn to >>it. I had no idea what it was or what it was about. Finally, one >>day after several trips to the book store, and having some sort a >>compelling feeling towards the books every time I walked down that >>isle, I purchased the set , The Secret Doctrine. I read the >>introduction and part of the first chapter. That's how I discovered >>that there is such a thing as Theosophy. I had a difficult time >>understanding what H.P.B. was saying, a lot of terms were foriegn to >>me so I went back to the store and bought Isis Unveiled, hoping that >>will clue me in to what every thing is about. >> So here I am, joined a group in hopes of learning more about >>Theosophy and maybe find some folks in my area that might be >>interested in meeting up some time. >> >> >> >> Have a Happy New Year, >> Dee From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jan 02 03:17:42 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65829 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2005 11:17:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2005 11:17:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2005 11:17:41 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.66] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cl3js-0003Vy-75; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 06:17:40 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=Wky0tiZOvQ8HBTumqAc/6phh7m+p1UCIvysQwp/OH7H05EGK+3y0myF4APdzZ8z2; To: "'Theosophy Study List'" Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 03:17:30 -0800 Message-ID: <000201c4f0bc$a9bcd820$428cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec798486f659f8ca89d7f69dc9e015ab7343350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.66 Subject: RE: A Blavatsky Quote X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Jan 2 2005 Dear Friends: Possibly, are there further answers to these? In the Mahayana Buddhist text, The VOICE OF THE SILENCE (p. 29) we find =93SAT=94 defined in a footnote:=20=20 "Seek not those points in Maya's realm; but soar beyond illusions, search the eternal and the changeless SAT, (2) mistrusting fancy's false suggestions. ---------FOOTNOTE--------------- (2) SAT, the one eternal and Absolute Reality and Truth, all the rest being illusion.=20 ------------------------------------------------------ Can we say, consulting BHAGAVAD GITA NOTES (p. 147-151) : =93As has been before stated, Krishna stands for the Higher Self [ or SAT] = of all beings; ? =93=85therefore all the discourses under his name are to be taken as addres= sed to all men and not merely as from one personage to another. It will then be understood that when He speaks of =93my being manifesting as the Individual Self,=94 or =93Purusha, the Spiritual Person,=94 or =93myself in this body= ,=94 He refers to the constituents of each human being. 2=09 =93Karma is the emanation which causes the existence and reproduction of creatures=94. Perhaps this sentence may be made more clear if the student takes into consideration the ancient aphorism that =93There is no Karma unl= ess there is a being to make it or feel its effects;=94 Karma means action, an= d as each being or creature acts according to his own degree of perception an= d feels the re-action or effect in the same relation, Karma as a whole, in so far as any world or system of worlds is concerned, is the interaction of al= l the beings of every grade who constitute, or are connected with, any such world or system.=20 Karma therefore is inherent in all beings and is not self-existent as such, or imposed by any imagined originator of worlds. Can we then say : KARMA is the CHANGELESS LAW ? -------------------------------------=09 =93Krishna shows that the realization of immortality must be had during lif= e in the body if the highest state is to be attained. This state reached, the necessity for reincarnation ceases. Those however whose beliefs are strongl= y fixed on some particular form of after death existence, have a realization of what they aspire to and then in the fulness of time are reborn upon earth. ... As it is from the spirit in man that all law and power proceeds, each human being creates his own limitations on every plane of being; he can transcend those limitations only by reverting to and maintaining his immortality, as the observer and experiencer of all the passing changes, himself unchanged and unchanging.=20 Throughout the dialogue Krishna speaks of the various paths of devotion taken by men. Most of these paths are taken in order to obtain some coveted reward, such as freedom from rebirth, enjoyment of the individual=92s ideal= of happiness after release from the body; individual salvation. He shows that all these rewards may be obtained by constant effort, but that all are temporary in duration, necessitating a return to earthly existence at some later period, however remote.=20 ----------------------------------- Is the devotee who seeks for Nirvana selfish?=20=20 =93The Brahmacharya laboring for salvation,=94 labors for himself alone; he =93goeth to the supreme goal,=94 but in that state is beyond the power of helping his fellow men. Although he may remain in that blissful state for a= n immense period of time, the duties to his fellow men which set aside in order to obtain salvation for himself, will inevitably place him where thos= e duties have to be faced and fulfilled.=20 [ see S D II pp. 79-80 : "The human Ego is neither Atman nor Buddhi, but the higher Manas: the intellectual fruition and the efflorescence of the intellectual self-conscious Egotism =97 in the higher spiritual sense.=20 The ancient works refer to it as Karana Sarira on the plane of Sutratma, which is the golden thread on which, like beads, the various personalities of this higher Ego are strung.=20 If the reader were told, as in the semi-esoteric allegories, that these Beings were returning Nirvanees, from preceding Maha-Manvantaras =97 ages o= f incalculable duration which have rolled away in the Eternity, a still more incalculable time ago =97 he would hardly understand the text correctly; wh= ile some Vedantins might say: "This is not so; the Nirvanee can never return"; which is true during the Manvantara he belongs to, and erroneous where Eternity is concerned. For it is said in the Sacred Slokas:=20 "The thread of radiance which is imperishable and dissolves only in Nirvana= , re-emerges from it in its integrity on the day when the Great Law calls all things back into action. . . ." S D II 79-80 ] =93The case of such an one is quite different from =93those great-souled on= es who have attained to supreme perfection=94 in knowledge and universal duty. All worlds up to that of Brahm=E2 are subject to rebirth again and again=94= In the section beginning with these words Krishna is pointing out the Law of Periodicity which prevails in every department of Nature.=20 -------------------------------------- Is "IMMUTABILITY" more fully explained in the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky, Vol. I, in that part referring to the Three Fundamental Principles. [S D I pp. 14-19]=20 =93Briefly stated, our present earthly existence is the result of previous ones; the present earth is the result of previous earths; the present solar system is the result of previous ones. All of these present progress of som= e sort, for the essence of progress is change. All beings have evolved to their present status, be that high or low, and all are still evolving; an infinite universe presents infinite possibilities.=20 =93But,=94 says Krishna, =93there is that which upon the dissolution of all= things else is not destroyed; it is indivisible, indestructible, and of another nature from the visible,=94 This is the Divine Spark of Spirit, Life, and Consciousness in every form and being. In Man it is called the =93Perceiver= ,=94 That which sees, learns and knows, apart from all objects, circumstances or conditions through which It passes. =93This Supreme, 0 son of Pritha, withi= n whom all creatures are included, and by whom all this is pervaded, may be attained by a devotion which is intent on him alone=94. To =93act for and a= s the Self=94 in every state, under all conditions and in every circumstance is t= he highest path and leads to the highest goal; it is the path of duty in its highest aspect." G N 147-51 Best wishes, Dallas =20 -------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Gerald=20 Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 8:52 PM To:=20 Subject: A Blavatsky Quote The following 2-sentence quote was thoughtfully provided by Dallas, and I think it is important enough to talk about. "Whatever plane our consciousness may be acting in, both we and the things belonging to that plane are, for the time being, our only realities. As we rise in the scale of development we perceive that during the stages through which we have passed we mistook shadows for realities, and the upward progress of the Ego is a series of progressive awakenings, each advance bringing with it the idea that now, at last, we have reached "reality;" but only when we shall have reached to the absolute Consciousness, and blended our own with it, shall we be free from the delusions produced by Maya." S D I 40=20 The first sentence addresses a thought that Zakk and I were discussing not long ago about being conscious on the planes. In general, we chelas and initiates and lower Adepts are all limited to one plane at a time. We can only be fully conscious on one single plane at a time and this is true all the way up to the highest plane. But higher Adepts and Bodhisattvas can be aware of either the four lowwr planes (samsara) simultaneously or of the three higher planes (nirvana) simultaneously but not both. Only Buddhas can be consciously aware on all 7 planes at a time. Only buddhas are consciously aware of samsara and nirvana simultaneously. Note that in the next long sentence she says that our consciousness is "blended with it." Although technically our consciousness is one of the skandhas, we usually impute an I onto it and we say "I think therefore I am" and the like. What happens when our consciousness or I is "blended with it?" The only way we can possible lose our I or selfhood is if such a thing never existed in the first place, because if a thing truly exists one moment, it cannot un-exist the next. This sentence is a clear hint at the doctrine of anatman for those who can see it. Jerry S. From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jan 02 03:17:59 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48052 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2005 11:17:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2005 11:17:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2005 11:17:58 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.66] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cl3kA-0003Vy-4Y; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 06:17:57 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=QSqZV3dDoDZU/ygX4KHIHj6acBurGeTZcsofgKctXfK7wqcOCyozEp6wGiZZjcUb; To: Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 03:17:30 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01c4f0bc$b4693c50$428cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79d07fbf1b26d685a933261f8303f477d8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.66 Subject: RE: [bn-study] Help: SD X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Jan 2 2005 Dear Etzion: You ask =94=85concerning the chapter Beginnings of Sentient Life, Stanza I, page 16= 0 of the Abridgement. { SECRET DOCTRINE } =A0 Passage no# 4. "After the changeless immutable Nature..." =A0 I don't quite see the difference, or the nuance between *changeless and immutable* I do not have the =93Abridgment=94 Do you know in the original SECRET DOCT= RINE the page referred to? What is the subject or stanza relevant ? In any case to me =93*changeless and immutable*=94 are synonyms. If anything, =93immutable=94 is stronger than =93changeless.=94=20 It implies that the Law of KARMA always applies and sets the limits of all forms and conditions.=20=20 It is the "forms and conditions" that are temporary, changing and therefore called illusions or "maya." Let me illustrate this: In Mahayana Buddhism, The VOICE OF THE SILENCE (p. 29) we find =93SAT=94 defined =93The seeds of Wisdom cannot sprout and grow in airless space. To live and reap experience the mind needs breadth and depth and points to draw it towards the Diamond Soul. (1) Seek not those points in Maya's realm; but soar beyond illusions, search the eternal and the changeless SAT, (2) mistrusting fancy's false suggestions. ---------FOOTNOTE--------------- (2) SAT, the one eternal and Absolute Reality and Truth, all the rest being illusion.=20 ------------------------------------------------------ In BHAGAVAD GITA NOTES (p. 147-151) we find: =93As has been before stated, Krishna stands for the Higher Self [SAT] of a= ll beings; therefore all the discourses under his name are to be taken as addressed to all men and not merely as from one personage to another. It will then be understood that when He speaks of =93my being manifesting as t= he Individual Self =94, =93Purusha, the Spiritual Person=94 or =93myself in th= is body=94, He refers to the constituents of each human being. =93Karma is the emanation which causes the existence and reproduction of creatures=94. Perhaps this sentence may be made more clear if the student takes into consideration the ancient aphorism that =93There is no Karma unl= ess there is a being to make it or feel its effects;=94 Karma means action, an= d as each being or creature acts according to his own degree of perception an= d feels the re-action or effect in the same relation, Karma as a whole, in so far as any world or system of worlds is concerned, is the interaction of al= l the beings of every grade who constitute, or are connected with, any such world or system. Karma therefore is inherent in all beings and is not self-existent as such, or imposed by any imagined originator of worlds. [or CHANGELESS LAW ] Krishna shows that the realization of immortality must be had during life i= n the body if the highest state is to be attained. This state reached, the necessity for reincarnation ceases. Those however whose beliefs are strongl= y fixed on some particular form of after death existence, have a realization of what they aspire to and then in the fulness of time are reborn upon earth. The meditation spoken of as necessary to the highest attainment is sometime= s called =93A LIFETIME=92S MEDITATION it means that the immortality of man ha= s first to be assumed, and then rigidly adhered to as the basis for every thought and action, for it is only in this way that a realization of immortality can be obtained by embodied beings.=20 AS IT IS FROM THE SPIRIT IN MAN THAT ALL LAW AND POWER PROCEEDS, EACH HUMAN BEING CREATES HIS OWN LIMITATIONS ON EVERY PLANE OF BEING; HE CAN TRANSCEND THOSE LIMITATIONS ONLY BY REVERTING TO AND MAINTAINING HIS IMMORTALITY, AS THE OBSERVER AND EXPERIENCER OF ALL THE PASSING CHANGES, HIMSELF UNCHANGED AND UNCHANGING.=20 Throughout the dialogue Krishna speaks of the various paths of devotion taken by men. Most of these paths are taken in order to obtain some coveted reward, such as freedom from rebirth, enjoyment of the individual=92s ideal= of happiness after release from the body; individual salvation. He shows that all these rewards may be obtained by constant effort, but that all are temporary in duration, necessitating a return to earthly existence at some later period, however remote. =93The Brahmacharya laboring for salvation,= =94 labors for himself alone; he =93goeth to the supreme goal,=94 but in that s= tate is beyond the power of helping his fellow men. Although he may remain in that blissful state for an immense period of time, the duties to his fellow men which set aside in order to obtain salvation for himself, will inevitably place him where those duties have to be faced and fulfilled. [ see S D II 79-80 : "The human Ego is neither Atman nor Buddhi, but the higher Manas: the intellectual fruition and the efflorescence of the intellectual self-conscious Egotism =97 in the higher spiritual sense.=20 The ancient works refer to it as Karana Sarira on the plane of Sutratma, which is the golden thread on which, like beads, the various personalities of this higher Ego are strung.=20 If the reader were told, as in the semi-esoteric allegories, that these Beings were returning Nirvanees, from preceding Maha-Manvantaras =97 ages o= f incalculable duration which have rolled away in the Eternity, a still more incalculable time ago =97 he would hardly understand the text correctly; wh= ile some Vedantins might say: "This is not so; the Nirvanee can never return"; which is true during the Manvantara he belongs to, and erroneous where Eternity is concerned. For it is said in the Sacred Slokas:=20 "The thread of radiance which is imperishable and dissolves only in Nirvana= , re-emerges from it in its integrity on the day when the Great Law calls all things back into action. . . ." S D II 79-80 ] The case of such an one is quite different from =93those great-souled ones = who have attained to supreme perfection=94 in knowledge and universal duty. All worlds up to that of Brahm=E2 are subject to rebirth again and again=94= In the section beginning with these words Krishna is pointing out the Law of Periodicity which prevails in every department of Nature. [This "IMMUTABILITY"]=20 This more fully explained in the Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky, Vol. I= , in that part referring to the Three Fundamental Principles. [S D I 14-19= ] Briefly stated, our present earthly existence is the result of previous ones; the present earth is the result of previous earths; the present solar system is the result of previous ones. All of these present progress of som= e sort, for the essence of progress is change. All beings have evolved to their present status, be that high or low, and all are still evolving; an infinite universe presents infinite possibilities.=20 =93But,=94 says Krishna, =93there is that which upon the dissolution of all= things else is not destroyed; it is indivisible, indestructible, and of another nature from the visible,=94 This is the Divine Spark of Spirit, Life, and Consciousness in every form and being. In Man it is called the =93Perceiver= ,=94 That which sees, learns and knows, apart from all objects, circumstances or conditions through which It passes. =93This Supreme, 0 son of Pritha, withi= n whom all creatures are included, and by whom all this is pervaded, may be attained by a devotion which is intent on him alone=94. To =93act for and a= s the Self=94 in every state, under all conditions and in every circumstance is t= he highest path and leads to the highest goal; it is the path of duty in its highest aspect." G N 147-51 This is long but I think it illustrates the difference asked. Best wishes,=20 Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Etzion Becker Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 12:34 AM To:=20 Subject: [bn-study] Help: SD Dear friends, I have an English question, concerning the chapter Beginnings of Sentient Life, Stanza I, page 160 of the Abridgement. =A0 Passage no# 4. "After the changeless immutable Nature..." =A0 I don't quite see the difference, or the nuance between *changeless and immutable* =A0 I'll appreciate your comments. Etzion From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jan 02 03:18:06 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66755 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2005 11:18:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2005 11:18:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2005 11:18:05 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.66] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cl3kE-0003Vy-QY; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 06:18:04 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=YXrg/TxDTsXu7MI29x3q3BmmzEX3vDStWVFUO2RjAMRg5h3ywH0h0/XLPUwcjjp6; To: "'CosmicBrat'" Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 03:17:30 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01c4f0bc$b75845f0$428cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <20050101021549.82001.qmail@web41806.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79aec8f97992e63426a6628d29cbcfe1a1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.66 Subject: RE: Part 2 -- Ancient Cataclysms X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Jan 1 2005 Dear Friend: You ask: "How is it a vast co-operative, and how it is not a cooperative... Is it something I and it would benefit by my joining... Descriptive extremes works for me...=20 Take it as high and deep as you are capable, Please...=20=20 Let me offer for consideration the following: We all look at Nature, at our Universe (either through telescopes or microscopes) and wonder how it originated and how it got to be so difficult to be fully understood.=20=20 To be told that 30 (or more) billions of years of antiquity lie between us here on little Earth and the furtherest regions of the Kosmos that the Hubble telescope reveals, has little bearing on how we behave to each other in daily life.=20 How can such information be made practical? But if we are told that LAWS o= f Nature are uniform here and there, and in the vast past we were far closer than now, the importance of community and family relationships are seen to acquire a new dimension of importance.=20 I have over the years tested THEOSOPHY and its expressions, doctrines and their logic; and have been satisfied that they did no more than transmit a very ancient and continuous system of science, research, study, testing, philosophizing, and compiling evidence of that which Nature employs continually and with great sensitivity to support life everywhere.=20=20 We could ask ourselves why this complexity is there, and how is this care for uncountable myriads of beings of so many diverse natures and degrees of intelligence actually done. We may see in imagination, hierarchies of dependent and semi-dependent (and semi-independent) agents that serve as links passing on laws, ideas and actions from one to another, so that apparent disharmony is eventually resolved into a grand symphony. Is this not the basis for a universal, cooperative brotherhood? We are for ever confronted with such ideas as cooperation, free and fair exchanges, consideration and care for one-another, interactions on a most generous basis, etc... There is no isolation or selfishness in this approach, but only a vast and quite reasonable coexistence and mutual help in action.=20 So, considering this complexity, I asked myself if there were any laws, short-cuts, correspondences, and analogies that could be traced. I looked carefully into the many departments of Science, and the fine arts, and discovered that emphasis had been placed on the repetition of phenomena, as the faithful demonstration of universal, inviolable and continuous laws. [And yet certain phenomena that were considered disruptive and "out-of-line," were being either neglected or suppressed. I ask: Why ?] Mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, engineering, logic and psychology= , the history, not only of events of government, invasions, religious fanaticism, as we have all been taught -- are expressed in brief compressed manner -- but also those of most myths and religions. We have a very wide spread of "history" and of "opinions" about it. How to get stability and truth from that?=20=20 Perhaps we ought to look for regularities and repetitions while not loosing sight of the conflicting diversities and curious incidents of apparent dissent. The only way I could devise for myself was making extensive notes as I read and studied and thought. In THEOSOPHY I discovered a well balanced review of the chief religions of the world. They showed a sequence. Also, it is apparent that there has always been duality in every religion: (1) the superficial religion of rite= s and rituals for the average masses, and (2) the deeper gnosis of the priesthood. See if this is of help. 2 You also ask: "Is it something I and it would benefit by my joining..." I would say we are already fully involved in this situation. We are actively trying to understand it implications. Have a look at this: ------------------------------------------ 2 "THE IDEAL PLAN OF THE UNIVERSE"=20 The ancient esoteric philosophy (Love of Wisdom) seeks to take inquirers out of the limiting realm of "forms," "customs, and "traditions" -- and it points to their SOURCE. I continually asks the questions: Why, Where, How, Who, When -- as leading past any declaration of authority (as to research and discovery) -- to the fact that NATURE (which we all live in) already contains all. Occultism (the invisible life, laws and courtesies of Nature) surrounds us, and we are unaware of them. But we can always ask questions that probe for basic facts. Is it not the prime duty of Science to probe for answers, and record their observations. It is noticed, through a study of science, that there is a constant shifting of theories and hypotheses as new facts (contradictory or modifying) are discovered. As already said, every discovery made has no value as novelty or uniqueness. Nature (our Universe and Earth) already had the order and procedures IN PLACE and in use. We had only to ask the right questions and seek for the pathways of Laws that govern our environment (visible and invisible) for us to use them. Does this not show us that some of our common and present views are laced with errors, such as 1. incorrect comprehension of old philosophies and religious, scientific, and psychological texts; 2. on the materialistic and anthropomorphic tendencies of this present age? In fact one might say that the intellectual mines of the ancients are being constantly drawn on, and the wealth of ideas there are being exposed again. ANCIENT MYSTERIES -- PAST THEOGONIES If one surveys the traces remaining to us of ancient sacerdotal literature, we may think of India, China, Egypt, Persia, Greece, Scandinavia, Tibet, and the "Popol Vuh" of the Mayas of Guatemala. One might surmise that these point to a common source, a foundation stone, a source of secret wisdom, which has been vaguely named the "Ancient Mysteries." Almost without exception we find ISIS UNVEILED, and the SECRET DOCTRINE speaking of the once "universal belief in a universal, divine Principle, absolute in its nature, and unknowable to the "brain" intellect or the conditioned and limited cognition of man." [ H.P.B.: THE MIND IN NATURE -- ULT, H.P.B. Articles, Vol. II, pp. 220-1 ] She continues: "To imagine any witness to it, in the manifested universe, other than as Universal Mind, the Soul of the universe--is impossible. That which alone stands as an undying and ceaseless evidence and proof of the existence of that One Principle, is the presence of an undeniable design in kosmic mechanism, the birth, growth, death and transformation of everything in the universe, from the silent and unreachable stars down to the humble lichen, from man to the invisible lives now called microbes. Hence the universal acceptation of "Thought Divine," the Anima Mundi of all antiquity. This idea of Mahat (the great) Akasha or Brahma's aura of transformation with the Hindus, of Alaya, "the divine Soul of thought and compassion" of the trans-Himalayan mystics; of Plato's "perpetually reasoning Divinity," is the oldest of all the doctrines now known to, and believed in, by man. Therefore they cannot be said to have originated with Plato, nor with Pythagoras, nor with any of the philosophers within the historical period. Say the Chaldean Oracles: "The works of nature co-exist with the intellectual, spiritual Light of the Father. For it is the soul which adorned the great heaven, and which adorns it after the Father." "The incorporeal world then was already completed, having its seat in the Divine Reason, says Philo, who is erroneously accused of deriving his philosophy from Plato. In the theogony of Mochus, we find Aether first, and then the air; the two principles from which Ulom, the intelligible God (the visible universe) is born. In the Orphic Hymns, the Eros-Phanes evolves from the Spiritual Egg, which the aethereal winds impregnate, wind being "the Spirit of god," who is said to move in aether, "brooding over the Chaos"--the Divine "Idea." In the Hindu Kathopanishad, Purusha, the Divine Spirit, stands before the original Matter; from their union springs the great Soul of the World, "Maha-Atma, Brahma, the Spirit of Life;" these later appellations are identical with the Universal Soul, or Anima Mundi, and the Astral Light of the |Theurgists and Kabalists." -- H.P.B. [CWB Vol. 13, p. 262 -- Sept. 1896] An ABSOLUTE SOURCE >From all accounts the Universe we know manifests from an unknown Source -- a background that is indefinable in our relative dimensions and terms. Space does not apply, nor Motion, nor Time to this ALL.=20=20 The terms "ABSOLUTE" or "ABSOLUTENESS" are used to convey a vague idea of an eternal, immutable, FULLY CONSCIOUS EVER-LIVING SOURCE, which, being timeless, prevails whether there is manifestation (whole or partial) or not; whether there is limited "Time," or endless and impartite "DURATION;" whether there is Space as we seek to measure it from the infinitely 'small,' to the infinitely 'large.' And whether there is Chaos or Cosmos, disorder and confusion or order and growth. It would be reasonable to assume that there are LAWS which pertain to the succession of the unfinished "business" of all beings (and of the WHOLE COMPOSITE KOSMOS) in their (ITS)=20 endless progression towards a "goal" which we vaguely define as "PERFECTION." It may also be assumed that the Universe (like man, when sleep follows daily activities) requires occasional periods of "rest," where planes of consciousness and activity other than the mere physical operate. We come across a reference to the three Logoi (Verbum, Word).=20 The first is the "idea" of manifestation - The Unmanifested Logos. The second is the Manifesting Logos - the transition between the Non-Manifested and the Manifested Logos, which is the third. There is a correspondence here to Paramita Viraga, the balance one of the seven stages to Adeptship: (Voice p. 52) "VIRAGA - (1) indifference to pleasure as to pain, (2) illusion conquered, (3) truth alone perceived."=20=20 CYCLES and KARMA The teaching concerning alternating Pralayas and Manvantaras (Obscurations, and Active periods) makes us consider the great law of Cycles, which prevails everywhere. The Hindus named this great coordinating Power: KARMA (or the exact effect that any chosen action produces in terms of a consequent reaction upon the chooser). Some believe that by their cessation from action their share of "Karma" will be reduced to nothing; and they, consequently (and hopefully) may be able to enter upon an infinitely extended period of non-involvement with the Nidana (concatenation of painful and joyous personal events - Samsara) -- called Earth-life. But on deep consideration, even that period of moksha {oblivion, or bliss (?)} or Nirvana, is seen, in the progress of time, to be limited; and vast Karma draws such Egos back (as "returning Nirvanees") into the stream of Life and progress, in common with those companions of theirs who have achieved a similar level of excellence. [S.D. II 79-80, 94, 109-110] IMMORTALITY and ETERNITY Broadly speaking, the whole of the 1st Volume of the SECRET DOCTRINE is devoted to giving a detailed view of the available evidence relating to the re-manifestation of the Universe, and taking our earth into particular account, as we are associated closely (and jointly) with that continued progress. In a small article titled ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISHISTADVAITA,=20=20 [ BCW, Vol. 7, pp. 51-2; ULT, H.P.B. Articles, Vol. .III,=20 pp. 265-6 ] we find HPB writing: "Like the Adwaitis, I make no difference between my Seventh Principle [ATMA] and the Universal Spirit, or Parabrahm...nor do I believe in an individual, segregated spirit in me, as a something apart from the whole... I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into Parabrahm, man's spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Parabrahm, owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. The most spiritual --i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh Principle into Devachan (Swarga) after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and become part and parcel of the Monad.... That such Parabrahmic and Paranirvanic "spirits," or units have and must preserve their divine (not human) individualities, is shown in the fact that, however long the "night of Brahma" or even the Universal Pralaya...yet, when it ends, the same individual Divine Monad resumes its majestic path of evolution, thought on a higher, hundredfold perfected and more pure chain of earths than before, and brings with it all the essence of compound spiritualities from its previous countless rebirths. Spiritual evolution...is dual and the path of spirituality turns, corkscrew-like within and around physical, semi-physical, and supra-physical evolution." -- H.P.B. DEVELOPING MIND IN NATURE In the S.D., Vol. I pp. 570-575 we are given a survey of the way in which the re-manifestation of our Universe and our Earth, and ourselves is accomplished -- Nature being assisted by a corps of Divine volunteers (the Dhyani Buddhas and "Cosmocratores," once men like we are, but, since then, having progressed further in self-training, they offered Nature their services to assist in the enormous work of assisting all creatures (Monads of whatever level of evolution) to advance. The IMMORTAL MONAD a FOUNDATION The concept of the basic unit of life, the MONAD is an important one to continually bear in mind. It is a unit of SPIRIT/MATTER. It has in it the entire potential of all Nature, but is restrained from=20 any individual misuse by its companions and the great law of karma / compassion. The MONAD is a component of every aspect of life and of development in the Universe. Emanating from the undifferentiated "Monadic essence," (S.D. I 619), the monads pass through successively the elemental stages (3) and then through the "kingdoms" (3 -- mineral, vegetable, animal) to the Human stage. Man is a Mind-Monad, and his self-awareness is the current field of decision. It is probably because of this crisis that theosophy has been offered again in a most coherent and logical way to our thoughtful world. Volume 2 of the S.D. is devoted to a study of the process of human evolution, physically, psychically, intellectually and spiritually. (S.D. I 157, 181-2) There we learn that the physical is the least important of the processes. But its importance lies in the fact that every immortal Monad has to pass through that stage in its progressive development. We in our bodies afford them, here and now, the field for such progress. Our responsibility is high. As we choose so do they advance or are detained, if our choices are selfish and ungenerous. To them, at their incipient level of individualizing intelligence, we are their "Universe." We to them are like the "Dhyan Chohans" are to us -- Powers, Forces of inspiration or of desperation. Mankind serves as a kind of filter, or as transfer point in the evolution of the countless MONADS that make up all SPACE (whether we designate it as "visible" or ":invisible," whether we call it "Light Matter" or "Dark Matter").. The active human mind provides this point of change and alteration. We who are mind-men will have to study and become aware of the full range of our potentials. PUPIL -- TEACHERS Theosophy offers the concept of the Pupil-Teacher link which at all levels and in all planes of being represents her marvelous adaptive processes. It underlines the fact that at all levels we are in constant contact with each-other -- even when we are unaware of that. What we may learn of evolution in S.D. Vol. I, can, by analogy, be applied to our dealings in our life-time with the "Monads" entrusted to us by Nature. As such, every immortal Monad passes through all the conditions and stages that the Universe can offer. The reincarnation of the Universe, the reincarnation of a world, and the reincarnation of a Man are all evidence of the economy of Nature which unites all its many disparate parts into a harmony of diversity. Her infinite sensitivity to the needs of the least, as of the greatest of her "children" will be found represented in one or another of the many pages of the SECRET DOCTRINE. See also: S.D. I 282-3 PERPETUAL MOTION ? All the Christian Kabalists understood well the Eastern root idea: The active Power, the "Perpetual motion of the great Breath" only awakens Kosmos at the dawn of every new Period, setting it into motion by means of the two contrary Forces,* and thus causing it to become objective on the plane of Illusion. In other words, that dual motion transfers Kosmos from the plane of the Eternal Ideal into that of finite manifestation, or from the Noumenal to the Phenomenal plane. Everything that is, was, and wil= l be, eternally IS, even the countless forms, which are finite and perishable only in their objective, not in their ideal Form. They existed as Ideas, in the Eternity, and, when they pass away, will exist as reflections Neither the form of man, nor that of any animal, plant or stone has ever been created, and it is only on this plane of ours that it commenced "becoming," i.e., objectivisng into its present materiality, or expanding from within outwards, from the most sublimated and supersensuous essence into its grossest appearance. Therefore our human forms have existed in the Eternity as astral or ethereal prototypes; according to which models, the Spiritual Beings (or Gods) whose duty it was to bring them into objective being and terrestrial Life, evolved the protoplasmic forms of the future Egos from their own essence. After which, when this human Upadhi, or basic mould was ready, the natural terrestrial Forces began to work on those supersensuous moulds which contained, besides their own, the elements of all the past vegetable and future animal forms of this globe in them.=20 Therefore, man's outward shell passed through every vegetable and animal body before it assumed the human shape. As this will be fully described in Book II., with the Commentaries thereupon, there is no need to say more of it here. [Footnote(s) -------------------------------------------------------- * The centripetal and the centrifugal forces, which are male and female, positive and negative, physical and spiritual, the two being the one Primordial Force. ** Occultism teaches that no form can be given to anything, either by natur= e or by man, whose ideal type does not already exist on the subjective plane. More than this; that no such form or shape can possibly enter man's consciousness, or evolve in his imagination, which does not exist in prototype, at least as an approximation. S.D. I 282 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Ask further if you will, Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: Cosmic Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 6:16 PM To:=20 Subject: Re:=20 Part 2 -- Ancient Cataclysms How is it a vast co-opertive, and how it is not a cooperative... Is it something I and it would benefit by my joining... Descriptive extremes works for me...=20 Take it as high and deep as you are capable, Please...=20=20 From global-theosophy@stofanet.dk Sun Jan 02 05:33:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@stofanet.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99870 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2005 13:33:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2005 13:33:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mx01.stofanet.dk) (212.10.10.11) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2005 13:33:33 -0000 Received: from 3e6b0ebc.rev.stofanet.dk ([62.107.14.188] helo=khidr) by mx01.stofanet.dk (envelope-from ) with smtp id 1Cl5rK-00019o-0s for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 14:33:26 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01c4f0d0$1e35c280$bc0e6b3e@khidr> To: Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:36:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.10.10.11 From: "M. Sufilight" Subject: A modern version of Ancient Cataclysms X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=206055933 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo all, My views are: The following emails posted by me a few weeks ago might be helpful to some of the readers: 1. ROLES of TEACHER and STUDENT http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/19293 A short excerpt: "Because the student is likely to be imprisoned by attitudes which have trained him, he will tend to approach the teacher, and the teaching, in all kinds of ineffective and minor ways. He will ask for 'peace of mind', progress in his worldly life, money, knowledge, illumination, assurances - all things which may be important in one way or another, but which are not necessarily relevant to his situation. In other words, he asks to be taught, or to be given, knowledge and things which HE HAPPENS TO BE WANTING FOR THE SOLE REASON THAT HE HAS DECIDED THAT THESE ARE NECESSARY OR URGENT." 2. A Curriculum of a School http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/12810 A short excerpt: "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, or the competence of another man or institution, he must first learn something which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his perception itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. This is 'Learning How To Learn." from M. Sufilight with peace and love... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jan 02 05:41:46 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13493 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2005 13:41:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2005 13:41:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net) (209.86.89.63) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2005 13:41:44 -0000 Received: from [209.179.140.162] (helo=DALLAS) by smtpauth03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cl5yy-0004xE-5f for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 08:41:23 -0500 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=simple; s=test1; d=earthlink.net; h=Reply-To:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:Importance:In-Reply-To:X-MimeOLE; b=Lz+IEauLLcZ9ZWcX85NjNcaQZWeI2Dw1Thh+ghjzvY64o7VPFu2G0bFjRsK1d1Hc; To: Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 05:41:06 -0800 Message-ID: <001801c4f0d0$be73cb20$428cb3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7990cab7a7dac6b793c4aaa284c5b85f26350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.86.89.63 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 209.179.140.162 Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Part 1 Remember the end of Atlantis? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Jan 2 2005 Re: Tsunami Excellent observation See current postings on this please Thanks Dallas ========================== -----Original Message----- From: netemara888 [ From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Jan 02 07:31:40 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54083 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2005 15:31:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2005 15:31:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gozer.look.ca) (207.136.80.10) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2005 15:31:38 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.182] (helo=idirect.ca) by gozer.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cl7hf-0003MX-Dh for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Jan 2005 15:31:35 +0000 Message-ID: <41D8147B.4040606@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 10:34:19 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <000601c4effa$e4573740$5d8cb3d1@DALLAS> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.10 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-study] Re: UNCERTAINTY X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn W.Dallas TenBroeck wrote: > Jan 1 2005 > The certainty of immutability is >important, or else we are indeed in a >sea of continually wavering indecision But if karma (in whatever sense) is seen as having a hand in such things, to begin with ... I wonder if various forms of uncertainty, certainty, immutability, wavering, etc, might be seen as having a pair of somewhat contrasting points of reference, perspective, or poles, in a sense, among other things, where such perspectives might be seen as: 1. "'essentially intepretive' points of reference" in contrast to anything "Realer" such as atma-buddhi, in terms of their (points of reference) relation to what might be defined as "karma/maya"---ie, "points of reference" in terms of where various realities and phenomena in objective and subjective terms is defined as "essentially interpretive," and 2. where various realities, phenomena, experiences are "experienced" (note quotes) as if they had no "essentially interpretive" aspect in their causal, intermediating or immediate reality. I suspect that the latter is where/how most people live their lives, and so might not have much interest in topics like Theosophy and "just being" as they (or "their karma," if you prefer) don't have much interest in "reading between the lines," in general, beyond certain "established/traditional" points, and generally prefer various forms of "established facts" (note quotes) as a means of coping with their lack of innate insight towards the Reality or Beness that trancends one's dualistic (or "essentially dualistic") notions and reality. Speculatively, Mauri PS Yes I know that my "note quotes" was redundant. But occasionally (if not often ...) I tend to get kind of desperate around here. ^:-/ From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Jan 02 08:10:18 2005 Return-Path: X-S