From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Fri Oct 01 06:26:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21084 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 13:26:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 13:26:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.101) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 13:26:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.147] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2004 13:26:01 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:26:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040930161818.02327fe0@theosophy.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 508 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.101 From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.232 Subject: Re: about participation on theos-talk X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Dear Eldon, Fine, but I have one further suggestion: no "calling out" listmembers by posting challenges to them with their names in the header. A much larger discussion forum I belong to has this rule and enforces it consistently, and it seems to help the atmosphere. It's an aggressive tactic that promotes a contentious atmosphere, and recently it has descended to a new and dehumanizing level. (Of course it's OK to add a note "reply to John" to make it clear who's being addressed.) Cheers, Paul From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Oct 01 06:54:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98599 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 13:54:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 13:54:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (195.41.46.235) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 13:54:54 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44f4c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.79.76]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 57FBB47FE4E for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 15:54:52 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002901c4a7bf$05c51250$4c4fa450@khidr> To: References: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:00:34 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.41.46.235 From: "Morten N. Olesen" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: about participation on theos-talk X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Paul and all, Paul wrote: ---no "calling out" listmembers by posting challenges to them with their names in the header." --- Can you help me out by writing an example, because I am not sure I exactly understood that one? What are challenges? Or is it just not using the name in the header you are referring to? from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "kpauljohnson" To: Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 3:26 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: about participation on theos-talk > Dear Eldon, > > Fine, but I have one further suggestion: no "calling out" listmembers > by posting challenges to them with their names in the header. A much > larger discussion forum I belong to has this rule and enforces it > consistently, and it seems to help the atmosphere. It's an aggressive > tactic that promotes a contentious atmosphere, and recently it has > descended to a new and dehumanizing level. (Of course it's OK to add > a note "reply to John" to make it clear who's being addressed.) > > Cheers, > > Paul > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Fri Oct 01 07:56:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66066 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 14:56:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 14:56:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.100) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 14:56:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2004 14:55:47 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 14:55:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002901c4a7bf$05c51250$4c4fa450@khidr> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1591 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.100 From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.232 Subject: MORTEN, DON'T YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!?!?! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Hey, That's the kind of thing I mean. One person does it all the time and Pedro was on the receiving end of a large number of these. But the other day it was done by someone else to Gregory Tillett in the nastiest manner I've ever seen the "calling out" phenomenon here. Cheers, Paul --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten N. Olesen" wrote: > Hallo Paul and all, > > Paul wrote: > ---no "calling out" listmembers > by posting challenges to them with their names in the header." --- > > Can you help me out by writing an example, because I am not sure > I exactly understood that one? > What are challenges? Or is it just not using the name in the header you are > referring to? > > > from > M. Sufilight > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kpauljohnson" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 3:26 PM > Subject: Theos-World Re: about participation on theos-talk > > > > Dear Eldon, > > > > Fine, but I have one further suggestion: no "calling out" listmembers > > by posting challenges to them with their names in the header. A much > > larger discussion forum I belong to has this rule and enforces it > > consistently, and it seems to help the atmosphere. It's an aggressive > > tactic that promotes a contentious atmosphere, and recently it has > > descended to a new and dehumanizing level. (Of course it's OK to add > > a note "reply to John" to make it clear who's being addressed.) > > > > Cheers, > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Oct 01 08:03:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98628 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 15:02:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 15:02:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (195.41.46.235) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 15:02:53 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44f4c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.79.76]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B96047FE29 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 17:02:52 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002101c4a7c8$86250f50$4c4fa450@khidr> To: References: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 17:08:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.41.46.235 From: "Morten N. Olesen" Subject: Re: Theos-World MORTEN, DON'T YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!?!?! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 I think I got it now. ...hmm... Perhaps it could be used as a theosophical "chock-effect", which thereby creates a forum, which doesn't harass anyone by any unfriendly insinuating remarks. >:-) I suggest: Try to email Eldon your remarks as he suggested - in private. from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "kpauljohnson" To: Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 4:55 PM Subject: Theos-World MORTEN, DON'T YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!?!?! > Hey, > > That's the kind of thing I mean. One person does it all the time and > Pedro was on the receiving end of a large number of these. But the > other day it was done by someone else to Gregory Tillett in the > nastiest manner I've ever seen the "calling out" phenomenon here. > > Cheers, > > Paul > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten N. Olesen" > wrote: > > Hallo Paul and all, > > > > Paul wrote: > > ---no "calling out" listmembers > > by posting challenges to them with their names in the header." --- > > > > Can you help me out by writing an example, because I am not sure > > I exactly understood that one? > > What are challenges? Or is it just not using the name in the header > you are > > referring to? > > > > > > from > > M. Sufilight > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "kpauljohnson" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 3:26 PM > > Subject: Theos-World Re: about participation on theos-talk > > > > > > > Dear Eldon, > > > > > > Fine, but I have one further suggestion: no "calling out" listmembers > > > by posting challenges to them with their names in the header. A much > > > larger discussion forum I belong to has this rule and enforces it > > > consistently, and it seems to help the atmosphere. It's an aggressive > > > tactic that promotes a contentious atmosphere, and recently it has > > > descended to a new and dehumanizing level. (Of course it's OK to add > > > a note "reply to John" to make it clear who's being addressed.) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Oct 01 08:11:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33521 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 15:11:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 15:11:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (195.41.46.237) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 15:11:15 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44f4c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.79.76]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CF62A26284F for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 17:10:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003601c4a7c9$9fafcc20$4c4fa450@khidr> To: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 17:16:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.41.46.237 From: "Morten N. Olesen" Subject: The role of the Teacher or moderator ??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo all, My views are: The following might bew helpful to some of you: The role of a theosophical teacher is to provoke capacity in the student, to provide what there is when it will be useful, to guide him towards progress. It is not to impress, to give an impression of virtue, power, importance, general information, knowledge or anything else." Such provokations are not always welcomed by certain lower level fragments in our auras. That is why some forums from time to time "elects" new teachers or moderators or changes their communication-rules - or even changes their behaviour. As someone wispered to me the other day: There are various forums or groups - and not all of them are using superficial moderation, - THEY have a real teacher of wisdom ! from M. Sufilight with a huge smile... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Oct 01 09:54:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44017 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 16:54:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 16:54:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO asmtp-a063f31.pas.sa.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.133) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 16:54:32 -0000 Received: from pool-141-150-44-233.mad.east.verizon.net ([141.150.44.233] helo=sprynet.com) by asmtp-a063f31.pas.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CDQfw-0003bm-Nd for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 09:54:32 -0700 Message-ID: <415D8BCE.8000201@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 12:54:38 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbafe1dc484c4195304fa2522707358369f379a5ba0fa6c7c04350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.133 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.150.44.233 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: about participation on theos-talk X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 kpauljohnson wrote: > Fine, but I have one further suggestion: no "calling out" listmembers > by posting challenges to them with their names in the header. A much > larger discussion forum I belong to has this rule and enforces it > consistently, and it seems to help the atmosphere. It's an aggressive > tactic that promotes a contentious atmosphere, and recently it has > descended to a new and dehumanizing level. (Of course it's OK to add > a note "reply to John" to make it clear who's being addressed.) Not to mention that, when the topic drifts, people's names get associated with things they had nothing to do with. Good point, Paul. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Oct 01 09:59:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26203 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 16:59:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 16:59:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO asmtp-a063f31.pas.sa.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.133) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 16:59:54 -0000 Received: from pool-141-150-44-233.mad.east.verizon.net ([141.150.44.233] helo=sprynet.com) by asmtp-a063f31.pas.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CDQko-0006l9-2t for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 09:59:34 -0700 Message-ID: <415D8CFB.5000902@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 12:59:39 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cbafe1dc484c4195304635265128f3d277519c9e15d1c7c699c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.133 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.150.44.233 Subject: Use of names in subject lines X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 kpauljohnson wrote: > That's the kind of thing I mean. One person does it all the time and > Pedro was on the receiving end of a large number of these. But the > other day it was done by someone else to Gregory Tillett in the > nastiest manner I've ever seen the "calling out" phenomenon here. And the subject should have some relation to the message; often, the messages just say who it's too. To those who do it, if you want to send a message to just a single person, send it to just them. If you want everybody to read it, use a meaningful subject. And if you change the subject, change the subject header. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Oct 01 10:07:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50664 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 17:07:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 17:07:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO asmtp-a063f31.pas.sa.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.133) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 17:07:47 -0000 Received: from pool-141-150-44-233.mad.east.verizon.net ([141.150.44.233] helo=sprynet.com) by asmtp-a063f31.pas.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CDQsk-0003aO-U8 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:07:47 -0700 Message-ID: <415D8EE8.3080208@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:07:52 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: 5be619ec394aa49c25eb773df4b61cba4e2e693983f7eedb73f5b4e3cbdada893b5efdd33357ec02350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.133 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 141.150.44.233 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The role of controler or moderator ??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 john_hopkinsphd_2000 wrote: > In fact the owner `owns' your words. He can delete them , ban you > forever (he's done it all the time) plus much more. Not true. The writer still owns the copyright to their own message. As far as banning, if someone was sending a hundred messages a day saying that we are all sinners and should convert to Jesus (and I HAVE seen this happen in unmoderated newsgroups), do you think that it would be wrong to delete the posts and ban the user? If someone was continually violating copyright or libel laws in this list, do you think that the list owner should expose himself to legal jeopardy by continuing to allow it? Bart From meredith_bill@earthlink.net Fri Oct 01 10:12:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: meredith_bill@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10544 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 17:12:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 17:12:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO audiogram.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.253) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 17:12:34 -0000 Received: from user-38ld2oh.dsl.mindspring.com ([209.86.139.17] helo=yourat5qgaac3z) by audiogram.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CDQxN-0006Xv-RS for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 10:12:35 -0700 Message-ID: <004801c4a7d9$d4387c70$118b56d1@yourat5qgaac3z> To: References: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 13:12:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: d46af0b26f581e21b1f01cdd6d36d69e74bf435c0eb9d478fe9e4570e4ae1a909a5e5c3c265fd6ed83b9d5fd2b869d75350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.253 From: "Bill Meredith" X-Originating-IP: 209.86.139.17 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The role of controler or moderator ??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=191212763 X-Yahoo-Profile: meredith_bille Hi. Do you know Brigette Muehlegger? I think you would like her. I can arrange an e-mail introduction if you are interested. I have included some comments below which represent my thinking on the role of controller or modertor in relation to the rights of the group. ----- Original Message ----- From: "john_hopkinsphd_2000" To: Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 11:46 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: The role of controler or moderator ??? > In fact the owner `owns' your words. He can delete them , ban you > forever (he's done it all the time) plus much more. There are numerous completely unmoderated forums where one can go to express a particular point of view as often and as aggressively as desired. A person who comes to an existing forum and begins to take over that forum through the use of bullying techniques, huge quantities of largely irrelevant quoted material, and false accusations and inuendo may be in for a bit of a surprise. First, the forum may already have a bully of sorts. While it may be entertaining to watch two hard heads butt, it does not further the goals of the group in general. Second, if the forum does not already have a resident bully, one may develop in response to the newcomer. This can be a learning experience of sorts, however, it does not further the aims of the group in general. Finally, after several episodes of watching the group suffer at the hands of a self-centered agitator, the "owner" of the group in the sense that he or she "owns" the slice of cyberspace in which the group meets, may finally feel compelled to exercise his or her right to moderate the group by laying down certain rules and guidelines and ultimately reserving for the "owner" final arbitration. I believe that this is the case here at Theos-talk. It is simply not enough to always recommend that group members just offensive and inflammatory posts. An aggressive poster does not have some God granted right to be offensive and inflammatory such that those posts cannot be curtailed, restricted, or even eliminated for the greater good of a particular group. > > You agreed to that by the rules and regulations of yahoo. > > You, have NO rights, even nobody is home, this is yahoo land plain and > simple. > A person has the right not to participate in any group for any reason. A person may also establish a group that satisfies his or her particular needs more effectively. Once a group has been established and begins working to meet the needs of the members of that group, a newcomer does not have the right to force him or her self onto the group with apparent disregard for the norms and accepted practices of the group. To do so disrupts the group and puts the many at the mercy of the few. regards, bill > ?? - THEY have a real teacher of wisdom ! >> >> >> >> from >> M. Sufilight with a huge smile... >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free by AVG Anti-Virus System Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/2004 From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Fri Oct 01 10:23:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15131 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 17:23:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 17:23:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.99) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 17:23:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.123] by n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2004 17:22:46 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 17:22:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3960 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.99 From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.232 Subject: Sophistry X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Dear Koshek, When you wrote: > > > > > I think that you both have proved without a doubt that Sophistry > > > rules political thinking. > > I called it "personal disparagement of listmembers" to which you replied > Well Paul, I'm at a loss as to how my statement was a personal > disparagment of you, but if you felt that way, I apologise. > Accusing Pedro and me of Sophistry was disparaging and personal, but I wasn't hurt by it in the least and doubt he was. My protest is due to the fact that such remarks are harmful to the list atmosphere IMO. In the USA there is a term "broken windows" which refers to the fact that in a rundown neighborhood, once vandals have broken a few windows in abandoned buildings, then others come along and soon there are broken windows everywhere. Whereas if broken windows are immediately repaired people don't get the idea that it's acceptable to throw bricks. > Anyway, I'm just as much a victom of Sophistry as you are so don't > feel so hurt by what I said. > Recently I called one listmember's remarks to another (condemning as spiritually wrong his interest in criticizing CWL's teachings) as "typical." I did not mean either typical of her (whom I don't know) or of the Adyar TS (in which many people are quite open to this conversation) but rather typical of online discussions about CWL. Which is absolutely true since I've seen it many, many times. But my statement which appeared to be personally aggressive, but which was not intended so, evoked some pointed remarks critical of me. At which point I dropped the matter because there were broken windows all around. > What it comes down to is not whether other people like the republican > party or the evangelists are doing, but what YOU are doing. Do you > (and I) stand for principle. Do you (and I ) stand for what's right. > > Is everything is permissable with regards to politics? Why? What does this do to our thinking processes and our ability to percieve truth? No one suggested praying for Bush to fail, only for Kerry to do well. Wishing others well does not strike me as black magic and believing it to be permissible does not mean "everything is permissible." > > The more one spins the truth, the more one get's spinned on an > unconcious level. Our perceptions get layer and layer of spin and we > lose all objectivity. You can no longer look at the world with an > open mind but have a head full of preconceptions that filter and spin the information as it comes in. > The information has already been filtered and spun before it gets to us, if you refer to the news media. By juxtaposing multiple information sources and learning how they decontruct one another's spin, one can begin to approximate the truth. There is no such thing as raw information in terms of political news. snip > > So let's see if we can just watch the debates in an impartial way and may the best man win. > but doesn't the very notion of a "best man winning" imply partiality? I guess I fail to grasp your use of "sophistry" here. Back to the model of the triune brain, the limbic system can never be turned off, and it defines salience and valence for us towards any phenomenon. ("Is it important? Do I feel good or bad about it?") The higher brain or neocortex can attempt to neutralize valence, but it can never transcend salience-- if we don't find something interesting or relevant we have no motive to analyze it. Pedro and I both appear to share the same orientation toward Bush and Kerry in terms of valence and salience. Perhaps you do as well. But sophistry only comes into the picture when our thought processes are so dominated by feeling that we can't face unwelcome truths. Many and perhaps most people are that way about political figures. But I don't see how wishing one well in a debate is proof that one's thought processes are distorted and subservient to emotion. Perhaps you could elaborate? Paul From ringding777@t-online.de Fri Oct 01 11:30:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 94643 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 18:30:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 18:30:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout08.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.20) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 18:30:38 -0000 Received: from fwd00.aul.t-online.de by mailout08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CDSAv-0004If-00; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 20:30:37 +0200 Received: from captainfb78633 (VOsIE8ZVreAf3-tDuSmjkRUKD1Gwq-d6E66LfV3xpS7mSi7MccYM49@[217.224.210.187]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CDSAq-1K4Gyu0; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 20:30:32 +0200 Message-ID: <009d01c4a7e4$c27dc160$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: <000401c4a74b$8c818220$1187b2d1@u7k5a4> Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 20:30:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: VOsIE8ZVreAf3-tDuSmjkRUKD1Gwq-d6E66LfV3xpS7mSi7MccYM49 X-TOI-MSGID: a6f97245-a002-4322-b032-8820234bf7e2 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.20 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Mrs Besant's "leading men" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer This is a good example to learn how the black magic was intruding into the Theosophical Movement in history. Annie Besant was "elected" "democratically" by the majority of the rest of the exoteric branch of the ex TS. But she only elected by them because the delegates was presented the the lie that it was the wish of the Masters, standing at the death bed of Olcott. Without these lie the dull mass had not supported her because Olcott always told that he did not want Besant as his successor. That is the history of the black magic part within the Theosophical Movement. Compare this with the white magic part, where Katherine Tingley, with full authority (visible and invisible) of HPB and Judge, with HPB's original occult ring coming down from Cagliostro, was made by over 5,000 delegates present in convention in 1897 was, recognizing her extraordinary intellectual and spiritual powers, leader of the Theosophical Movement in the whole world. The majority of HPB's personal London students recognized her as Outer Head at followed her to New York and Point Loma where she build the School of Wisdom HPB had in mind but was due to her sick physical body not able to see it in that worn-out body. HPB declared the true headquarters would be there where the majority of her pupils will be. Katherine Tingley with her strong body, her rich and quick intellect which surprised at meetings the highest minds, her outstanding spiritual insight and her rare ability to make Theosophy practical and bring the bumbed ship to the save side, was able hold her office for 30 years and fight against the lies and the false prophets of Pseudo-Theosophy of which HPB was warning us. "So long as I am the Leader, so long will no Jesuitic agent be able to join our ranks and destroy us from within" - she declared. Her enemies from within the Theosophical Movement, but outside the original impulse and organization of HPB's Masters of Wisdom - De La Rue, Besant & Leadbeater, Hartmann, Crosbie, where not able to stop her work for humanity. Perhaps it needs centuries before the public will see how magnificant the benefit for both the Theosophical Movement and humanity was. The work was done as pledged and her evil enemies are ashamed, being left to gossip and slander, having no intellectual or spiritual counter argument, not even HPB's ring as an outer sign. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Kier" To: Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:03 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Mrs Besant's "leading men" ----- Original Message ----- From: "prmoliveira" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:47 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Mrs Besant's "leading men" > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, gregory > wrote: > > > As George Bernard Shaw said of Mrs Besant that she > > always need > a "leading > > man" to play to. [snip] > > In 1907, when also accused of being deluded by Leadbeater, > she was > elected President of the TS with overwhelming support from > members > world wide. During the 26 years of her presidency the > growth of TS > Lodges and members was exponential, reaching 45,000 in > 1928. I suppose the operative word in the above is "elected", as opposed to most of her detractors, like Mrs. Tingley, who just seized power. How many of Mrs. Tingley's successors were "elected" by the general membership? I haven't studied the general history of that line enough to know when they held the elections, or how many of the members voted in each case, - up to the present time. Dennis Yahoo! Groups Links From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Fri Oct 01 12:46:29 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1097 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 19:46:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 19:46:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.103) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 19:46:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2004 19:45:05 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 19:45:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <004801c4a7d9$d4387c70$118b56d1@yourat5qgaac3z> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2087 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.103 From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.232 Subject: Cyberbullying (reply to Bill) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Meredith" wrote: First, the forum may already have a bully of sorts. or several. Here's a good website about online bullies, of which there have occasionally been several operating simultaneously here: http://www.urban75.org/info/bullying.html One thing I've recently come to recognize is how denial operates with bullies. They will try to dominate and demean you, but if you protest they indignantly deny any such intention. Well, maybe some of them are cynical liars and consciously set out to torment people. But often, I think, we can take them at their word: "I didn't *intend* to attack you." They think that lack of destructive *intention* proves that you've imagined being attacked, and that you're an oversensitive crybaby. But what it really proves (if they're not cynical liars) is that aggressive behavior is so deeply ingrained in them that they attack people automatically without any *conscious* intention to harm them. The conscious intention may well be some high-minded goal like defending HPB or serving the Masters, which justifies treating people in bullying ways. One aspect of bullying I've recently encountered is forced dichotomous choice. A topic might be nuanced and complex, and the phenomenon under discussion might be measurable on a continuum. But a bully will demand that you say it's either x or y, and won't accept the reply that it's both or neither. Here are the most relevant lines from the website in terms of describing my own experience with online bullies: "It doesn't matter how you react, the fact they've successful provoked a reaction is, to the bully, a sign that their attempt at control have been successful. After that, it's a question of wearing you down. The more your try to explain, negotiate, conciliate, etc the more gratification they obtain from your increasingly desperate attempts to communicate with them. Understand that it is not possible to communicate in a mature adult manner with a disordered individual who's emotionally retarded." Paul From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Oct 01 13:03:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8784 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 20:02:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 20:02:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (195.41.46.235) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 20:02:54 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44f4c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.79.76]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 59FE447FE59 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 22:02:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <002001c4a7f2$6c613290$4c4fa450@khidr> To: References: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 22:08:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.41.46.235 From: "Morten N. Olesen" Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The role of controler or moderator ??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo john_hopkinsphd_2000 and all, My views are: I didn't understand that reply. To me it is a question about wisdom and not a question about "rights". The Wise provokation by the teacher of wisdom is what it all is about - is it not? Well allright, sometimes you loose, but hey then you have learnt something havn't you? M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "john_hopkinsphd_2000" To: Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 5:45 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: The role of controler or moderator ??? > In fact the owner `owns' your words. He can delete them , ban you > forever (he's done it all the time) plus much more. > > You agreed to that by the rules and regulations of yahoo. > > You, have NO rights, even nobody is home, this is yahoo land plain and > simple. > > ?? - THEY have a real teacher of wisdom ! > > > > > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with a huge smile... > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Oct 01 13:12:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18652 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 20:12:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 20:12:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO asmtp-a063f29.pas.sa.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.131) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 20:12:49 -0000 Received: from pool0126.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.126] helo=DALLAS) by asmtp-a063f29.pas.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CDTll-0006Zg-Tb; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:12:46 -0700 To: "'Theosophy Study List'" Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 13:11:03 -0700 Message-ID: <004701c4a7f3$03ffe510$b692b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79fed98c88ea7c0480dc89821d8eb018ff350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.131 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.30.126 Subject: RE: planes/globes X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Oct 1 2004 Dear M: Where does this quotation or statement originate? Who said that? In some text book or article ? What would a "shadow" be? Why would the student of occultism have to "meet or see" it? I don't recall H P B saying this, but I could be wrong. I find this very curious=20 See if you can help me. Thanks, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: mika [mailto:mika.perala@pp1.inet.fi]=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 4:34 AM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Re: planes/globes > When a Chela is on a Path, one of his/her first tasks is to enter the > astral plane and encounter their own archetypal shadow. The shadow will b= e > there, waiting. The Chela will spontaneously project their shadow outwar= d > in some form, usually quite frightful and terrifying. The task is to face > this projection (often seen as a monster or demon of some sort) and subdu= e > it. I met my shadow in a dream. Bright light radiated through my head and projected a monsters shadow into a wall behind me. I remember being terribl= y scared when I looked over my shoulder. Though I'm not sure if I'm on any kind of Path since I usually have feeling of going nowhere... :) mika --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@earthlink.net List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=3Dtheos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-56348C@list.vnet.net From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Oct 01 13:12:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53878 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 20:12:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 20:12:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO asmtp-a063f29.pas.sa.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.131) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 20:12:53 -0000 Received: from pool0126.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.126] helo=DALLAS) by asmtp-a063f29.pas.sa.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CDTlf-0006Zg-CF; Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:12:44 -0700 To: Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 13:11:03 -0700 Message-ID: <004601c4a7f3$001b57e0$b692b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 1 (Highest) X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: High In-Reply-To: <003601c4a7c9$9fafcc20$4c4fa450@khidr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79adf26f7187ad8c48c1d43bb0d9a3f67f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.131 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 216.244.30.126 Subject: RE: The role of the Teacher or moderator ??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Oct 1 2004 Re: Moderating a chat-list Dear M, It is well to think on the idea that HPB and the Masters are alive and well and working with all true students. I think it is important to become familiar with what HPB wrote in every case. Remember that she was the "Messenger" of the real Mahatmas -- the TEACHERS OF WISDOM -- who never "die."=20=20 There is enough material in her books and articles to keep us busy for a good long time. I would say that in those pages lies our assignment for th= e present incarnation -- to learn and to understand. I see many who desire "something new." Why? When they have yet to master t= o "original teachings?" Without a secure foundation what is to be achieved? A "moderator" in not necessarily a "teacher."=20=20 A moderator tries to keep the flow of discussion within certain boundaries -- chiefly of moderation in language and expression. It is not easy. The more so, since "brotherhood" forbids excluding anyone, unless there is some gross expression of animosity or of untheosophical statements.=20 As I understand THEOSOPHY states early in S D Vol. 1 that every human being is a deathless immortal MONAD (Atma-Buddhi). It reincarnates and grows wiser if it lives a life of strict morality and brotherhood. In the SECRET DOCTRINE, [ S D I 178, 326, 570, II 57]=20=20 HPB defines the Monad as a conjoint entity made up of two poles: SPIRIT and MATER. Between these two is the intelligent MIND. [ S D I 75; II 58-9] Its function is to look both ways and serve continually as a link between these two.=20=20 Thus the Monad in evolution (you and me) are three-fold. [S D I 570; II 57]=20 It is the mind which is trying to make of itself a universally self-conscious entity.[ S D I 334fn, 192-3; II 79-80, 93, 103, 113, 167 At present we are self-conscious -- of the 2 selves: The "Self of Spirit," [ S D I 106; II 640] and the "self of matter." [S D II 110, 163, 422,= =20 =20 Best wishes, Dallas -------------------------------------- PS=20=20=20 It is of importance that we ask ourselves: WHO WAS / IS H P B ? Here are some statements to be thought over: On HPB's "position" as an ADEPT." "[H. P. B.] Those who cannot understand her had best not try to explain her...she knew...that high and wise servants of the Lodge have remained with the West since many centuries for the purpose of helping it on its mission and destiny. That work it would be well for members of the T. Mvt. to continue without deviating, without excitement, without running to extremes...the truth of the soul's life is in no special quarter of the compass..." W Q J LETTERS 76 "...They say that the Ego of that body she uses was and is a great and brave servant of the Lodge, sent to the West with a mission with full knowledge of the insult and obloquy to be surely heaped upon that devoted head; and they add: 'Those who cannot understand her had best not try to explain her; those who do not find themselves strong enough for the task she outlined from the very first had best not attempt it.'" WQJ ART II 18 "H.P.B. was the Messenger from the Great Lodge to the western world. W.Q.J. was a co-founder and co-worker with H.P.B. from the beginning. It will be well to remember that HPB and WQJ were not accorded the positions They held through any authority, but through recognition of Their knowledge and power. They were sui generis; all others are but students. Those who belittle Judge will also be found belittling HPB." F P 5 "HPB was the Direct Agent of the Lodge--and this is explicitly stated to be the fact by the Master K.H. ...then we must go to the records left by Her and Her Colleague, W.Q.J., for direction in all matters pertaining to the Theosophical Movement." F P 34 "In the introduction to the SECRET DOCTRINE, H.P.Blavatsky boldly affirms the existence of a great Fraternity of Men, Adepts, who preserve the true philosophy through all changes, now revealing it, and again, at certain eras, withdrawing it from a degraded age; and emphatically she says that the doctrine is never a new one, but only a handing on again of what was always the system... [Further she adds] in the twentieth century of our era scholars will begin to recognize that the S.D. has neither been invented nor exaggerated, but, on the contrary, simply outlined; and finally, that its teachings antedate the Vedas." "...the Messenger from the great Fraternity--she herself being the one for this Century--she observes significantly: that "In Century the 20th some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proof that there exists a science called Gupta-Vidya; and that, [it] the source of all religions and philosophies now known to the world...is at last found." WQJ ART II 81-2 =09 "[ According to HPB ]...there are certain persons on this earth, living and working as ordinary human beings and members of society, whose informing divine part is so immeasurably high in development that they as such high beings have a definite status and function in the "supersensuous regions."...she herself was such a case, and that "H P B" whether hourly in the day or at night when all around was still, had a "status and function" in other spheres where she consciously carried on the work of that high station, whatever it was...[She wrote in one place] " I am conscious day and night, and have much to do and to endure in both these existences from which you, being half-conscious, are happily saved." WQJ ART I 616 --------------------------- AUTHORSHIP OF SECRET DOCTRINE A good deal has been said about the writing of Isis Unveiled, and later of the Secret Doctrine, both by H. P. Blavatsky.=20 A writer in the spiritualistic journals took great pains to show how many books the first work seems to quote from, and the conclusion to be arrived at after reading his diatribes is that H.P.B. had an enormous library at her disposal, and of course in her house, for she never went out, or that she had agents at great expense copying books, or, lastly, that by some process or power not known to the world was able to read books at a distance, as, for instance, in the Vatican at Rome and the British Museum. The last is the fact.=20 She lived in a small flat when writing the first book and had very few works on hand, all she had being of the ordinary common sort. She herself very often told how she gained her information as to modern books.=20 No secret was made of it, for those who were with her saw day after day that she could gaze with ease into the astral light and glean whatever she wanted. But in the early days she did not say precisely to the public that she was in fact helped in that work by the Masters, who gave from time to time certain facts she could not get otherwise.=20 The Secret Doctrine, however, makes no disguise of the real help, and she asserts, as also many of us believe, that the Masters had a hand in that great production.=20 The letters sent to Mr. Sinnett formed the ground for Esoteric Buddhism, as was intended, but as time went on it was seen that some more of the veil had to be lifted and certain misconceptions cleared up; hence the Secret Doctrine was written, and mostly by the Masters themselves, except that she did the arranging of it. For some time it was too much the custom of those who had received at the hands of H.P.B. words and letters from her Masters to please themselves with the imagination that she was no more in touch with the original fount, and that, forsooth, these people could decide for themselves what was from her brain and what from the Masters. But it is now time to give out a certificate given when the Secret Doctrine was being written, a certificate signed by the Masters who have given out all that is new in our theosophical books. It was sent to one who had then a few doubts, and at the same time copies were given from the same source to others for use in the future, which is now.=20 The first certificate runs thus: "I wonder if this note of mine is worthy of occupying a select spot with the documents reproduced, and which of the peculiarities of the "Blavatskian" style of writing it will be found to most resemble? The present is simply to satisfy the Doctor that "the more proof given the less believed." Let him take my advice and not make these two documents public. It is for his own satisfaction the undersigned is happy to assure him that the Secret Doctrine, when ready, will be the triple production of [here are the names of one of the Masters and of H.P.B.] and _______ most humble servant, [signed by the other.]" On the back of this was the following, signed by the Master who is mentioned in the above: "If this can be of any use or help to _____, though I doubt it, I, the humble undersigned Faquir, certify that the Secret Doctrine is dictated to [name of H.P.B.], partly by myself and partly by my brother ______." A year after this, certain doubts having arisen in the minds of individuals, another letter from one of the signers of the foregoing was sent and reads as follows. As the prophecy in it has come true, it is now the time to publish it for the benefit of those who know something of how to take and understand such letters. For the outside it will all be so much nonsense. The certificate given last year saying the Secret Doctrine would be when finished the triple production of [H.P.B.'s name], " ________, and myself was and is correct, although some have doubted not only the facts given in it but also the authenticity of the message in which it was contained. Copy this and also keep the copy of the aforesaid certificate. You will find them both of use on the day when you shall, as will happen without your asking, receive from the hands of the very person to whom the certificate was given, the original for the purpose of allowing you to copy it; and then you can verify the correctness of this presently forwarded copy. And it may then be well to indicate to those wishing to know what portions in the Secret Doctrine have been copied by the pen of [H.P.B.'s name] into its pages, though without quotation marks, from my own manuscript and perhaps from ______, though the last is more difficult from the rarity of his known writing and greater ignorance of his style. All this and more will be found necessary as time goes on, but for which you are well qualified to wait." ONE OF THE STAFF [WQJ] Path, April, 1893 =20 ------------------------------------------ On the principles of editing a THEOSOPHICAL journal, HPB wrote: WHY THE "VAHAN"? "BECAUSE, the word means a Vehicle. In Theosophical metaphysics this term denotes a basis, something, as a bearer, more substantial than that which i= t bears; e.g., Buddhi, the spiritual Soul, is the Vahan of Atm=E2 --the purel= y immaterial "principle." Or again, as in physiology, our brain is the supposed physical vehicle or Vahan of superphysical thought. =20 Thus, this...is destined to serve as the bearer of Theosophical thought, an= d the recorder of all Theosophical activities.=20 The journal is to go free of charge... It is also meant for those who are unable to subscribe to our regular magazines...The Karma of those who could= , but will not subscribe... whether from indifference or any other cause, is their own; but the duty of keeping all the Fellows in touch with us, and au courant with Theosophical events--is ours... ...a true Theosophist must have no personal ends to serve, no favourite hobby to propagate, no special doctrine to enforce or to defend. For, to merit the honourable title of Theosophist one must be an altruist, above all; one ever ready to help equally foe or friend; to act, rather than to speak; and urge others to action, while never losing an opportunity to work himself.=20 But, if no true Theosophist will ever dictate to his fellow, brother or neighbor, what this one should believe or disbelieve in, nor force him to act on lines which may be distasteful to him, however proper they may appea= r to himself, there are other duties which he has to attend to:=20 (a) to warn his brother of any danger the latter may fail to see; and=20 (b) to share his knowledge--if he has acquired such with those who have bee= n less fortunate than himself in opportunities for acquiring it. ... Many are the Fellows who, having failed at first to help on the cause, have now become earnest "working members," as they are called. Therefore, we say to-day to all: "If you would really help the noble cause--you must do so now; for, a few years more and your, as well as our efforts, will be in vain."=20 The world moves in cycles, which proceed under the impetus of two mutually antagonistic and destroying Forces, the one striving to move Humanity onward, toward Spirit, the other forcing Mankind to gravitate downward, int= o the very abysses of matter. It remains with men to help either the one or the other.=20 Thus, also, it is our present task, as Theosophists, to help in one or the other direction. We are in the very midst of the Egyptian darkness of Kali-yuga, the "Black Age," the first 5,000 years of which, its dreary firs= t cycle, is preparing to close on the world between 1897 and 1898.=20 Unless we succeed in placing the T.S. before this date on the safe side of the spiritual current, it will be swept away irretrievably into the Deep called "Failure," and the cold waves of oblivion will close over its doomed head.=20 Thus will have ingloriously perished the only association whose aims, rules and original purposes answer in every particular and detail--if strictly carried out--to the innermost, fundamental thought of every great Adept Reformer, the beautiful dream of a UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD OF MAN. =20 Verily, of philanthropical, political, and religious bodies we have many...= . But which of them is strictly universal, good for all and prejudicial to none? Which of them answers fully to the noble injunction of the Buddhist Arhats and also of King Asoka? "When thou plantest trees along the roads, allow their shade to protect the wicked as the good. When thou buildest a Rest-House, let its doors be thrown open to men of all religions, to the opponents of thine own creed, and to thy personal enemies as well as to thy friends."=20 None, we say, none save our own Society, a purely unsectarian, unselfish body; the only one which has no party object in view, which is open to an men, the good and the bad, the lowly and the high, the foolish and the wise--and which calls them all "Brothers," regardless of their religion, race, colour, or station in life.=20 To all these we now say: As "there is no religion higher than Truth," no deity greater than the latter, no duty nobler than self-sacrifice, and that the time for action is so short-shall not each of you put his shoulder to the wheel of the heavy car of our Society and help us to land it safely across the abyss of matter, on to the safe side?=20 --H.P.B. Vahan, December, 1890=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: M Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 8:16 AM To:=20 Subject: The role of the Teacher or moderator ??? Hallo all, My views are: The following might bew helpful to some of you: The role of a theosophical teacher is to provoke capacity in the student, t= o provide what there is when it will be useful, to guide him towards progress. It is not to impress, to give an impression of virtue, power, importance, general information, knowledge or anything=20 else." Such provokations are not always welcomed by certain lower level fragments in our auras. That is why some forums from time to time "elects" new teachers or moderators or changes their communication-rules - or even changes their behaviour.=20 As someone wispered to me the other day: There are various forums or groups - and not all of them are using superficial moderation, - THEY have a real teacher of wisdom ! from M. Sufilight with a huge smile... From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Oct 01 13:21:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42965 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 20:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 20:21:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.99) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 20:21:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2004 20:21:03 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 20:21:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 269 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.99 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 166.89.16.77 Subject: Concerning H.S. Olcott's Testimony about the Masters X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Readers may be interested in some of the fallacious arguments concerning Colonel Olcott's testimony about the Masters. For example, see: Concerning H.S. Olcott's Testimony about the Masters http://blavatskyarchives.com/johnsonparanormal3.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From fdavis@texas.net Fri Oct 01 14:31:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: fdavis@texas.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77906 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 21:31:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 21:31:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.aus.texas.net) (209.99.125.15) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 21:31:39 -0000 Received: from 70.240.65.23 (rweb1.aus.texas.net [209.99.124.8]) by mail2.aus.texas.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 3997927CF37E for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:31:39 -0500 (CDT) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 16:32:05 CDT X-Mailer: Texas.Net Webmail (Endymion MailMan Standard Edition v3.0.12) X-User: fdavis Message-Id: <20041001213139.3997927CF37E@mail2.aus.texas.net> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.99.125.15 From: fdavis@texas.net Subject: ML 74 Quote X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=68635532 X-Yahoo-Profile: davisfa Very grim quote: >Dugpas can be quite useful for someone searching for truth: > > >"They are trained to deceive; we — to undeceive; they do the scavenger's work >themselves — barring a few poor sincere tools of theirs — con amore, and for >selfish ends; we — leave it to our menials — the dugpas at our service, by >giving them carte blanche for the time being, and with the sole object of >drawing out the whole inner nature of the chela, most of the nooks and >corners of which would remain dark and concealed for ever, were not an >opportunity afforded to test each of these corners in turn. Whether the chela >wins or loses the prize — depends solely on himself." > >(Mahatma Letters, letter 74, chronological) > This is a sobering quote if one thinks about it ... I understand that chelas are tested by their master but to open them up to testing by dugpas ... kind of reminds me of the story of JOB in the Jewish-Christian Bible and God allowing the devil to test JOB "to test each of these corners". It does for sure point out the rocky road an initiate must take as said "solely on himself". No room for the faint of heart here. - Fred From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Fri Oct 01 15:06:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27977 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 22:06:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 22:06:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 22:06:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.170] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2004 22:06:07 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 22:06:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <009d01c4a7e4$c27dc160$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2358 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.88 From: "prmoliveira" X-Originating-IP: 150.101.201.135 Subject: Re: Mrs Besant's "leading men" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, ringding777@t... wrote: > This is a good example to learn how the black magic was > intruding into the Theosophical Movement in history. > Annie Besant was "elected" "democratically" by the majority > of the rest of the exoteric branch of the ex TS. > But she only elected by them because the delegates was > presented the the lie that it was the wish of the Masters, > standing at the death bed of Olcott. > Without these lie the dull mass had not supported her > because Olcott always told that he did not want Besant as > his successor. > That is the history of the black magic part within the > Theosophical Movement. Besant's election, like the election of every international President of the Adyar TS, was by universal secret ballot. Olcott initially had "appointed" her as his successor and later corrected this by nominating her, which was his prerogative as President-Founder. As Josephine Ransom writes, "even though she was the only candidate, the nomination had to be ratified by a two-thirds majority vote of the whole international Society." > The work was done as pledged and her [Tingley's] evil enemies are > ashamed, being left to gossip and slander, having no > intellectual or spiritual counter argument, not even HPB's > ring as an outer sign. Was HPB under "dark" influences when she issued the following orders ("H.P. Blavatsky Collected Works", vol. XII, pp.135-137)? "Strictly Private, Theosophical Society, E.S. 19, Avenue Road, Regent's Park, London, N.W., March 31, 1891. I hereby appoint Mrs. Annie Besant (Councillor of the E.S.) to be my agent and representative during her visit to the U.S. She is directed to call together Lodges and Groups of the E.S. whenever practicable and to explain such matters as are necessary. Bro. W. Q. Judge is requested to give Mrs. Besant all the aid necessary for this undertaking. H. P. BLAVATSKY .'. Head of the E.S. Read and Recorded April 11/91, WILLIAM QUAN JUDGE Sec. U.S. E. S. O R D E R I hereby appoint in the name of the MASTER, Annie Besant Chief Secretary of the Inner Group of the Esoteric Section & Recorder of the Teachings. H. P. B. .'. To Annie Besant, C.S. of the I.G. of the E.S. & R. of the T. April 1, 1891. Read and Recorded April 11/91. William Q. Judge, Sec. U.S." Pedro From AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org Fri Oct 01 15:27:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: AnandGholap@AnandGholap.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22391 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 22:27:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 22:27:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 22:27:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.114] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2004 22:27:36 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 22:27:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2789 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.64 From: "Anand Gholap" X-Originating-IP: 202.54.51.5 Subject: Re: Mrs Besant's "leading men" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=187713566 X-Yahoo-Profile: anand_gholap_1 Pedro, What I heard is Annie Besant was appointed as sole head of the Esoteric School. Somebody said she and W.Q.Judge were joint heads. What is your information. Regards. Anand Gholap --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "prmoliveira" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, ringding777@t... wrote: > > > > This is a good example to learn how the black magic was > > intruding into the Theosophical Movement in history. > > Annie Besant was "elected" "democratically" by the majority > > of the rest of the exoteric branch of the ex TS. > > But she only elected by them because the delegates was > > presented the the lie that it was the wish of the Masters, > > standing at the death bed of Olcott. > > Without these lie the dull mass had not supported her > > because Olcott always told that he did not want Besant as > > his successor. > > That is the history of the black magic part within the > > Theosophical Movement. > > > Besant's election, like the election of every international President > of the Adyar TS, was by universal secret ballot. Olcott initially > had "appointed" her as his successor and later corrected this by > nominating her, which was his prerogative as President-Founder. As > Josephine Ransom writes, "even though she was the only candidate, the > nomination had to be ratified by a two-thirds majority vote of the > whole international Society." > > > > The work was done as pledged and her [Tingley's] evil enemies are > > ashamed, being left to gossip and slander, having no > > intellectual or spiritual counter argument, not even HPB's > > ring as an outer sign. > > > Was HPB under "dark" influences when she issued the following orders > ("H.P. Blavatsky Collected Works", vol. XII, pp.135-137)? > > > "Strictly Private, > Theosophical Society, > E.S. > 19, Avenue Road, > Regent's Park, > London, N.W., March 31, 1891. > > I hereby appoint Mrs. Annie Besant (Councillor of the E.S.) to be my > agent and representative during her visit to the U.S. > > She is directed to call together Lodges and Groups of the E.S. > whenever practicable and to explain such matters as are necessary. > Bro. W. Q. Judge is requested to give Mrs. Besant all the aid > necessary for this undertaking. > > H. P. BLAVATSKY .'. > Head of the E.S. > > > Read and Recorded April 11/91, > > WILLIAM QUAN JUDGE > Sec. U.S. > > > E. S. > O R D E R > > I hereby appoint in the name of the MASTER, Annie Besant Chief > Secretary of the Inner Group of the Esoteric Section & Recorder of > the Teachings. > > H. P. B. .'. > > > To Annie Besant, C.S. of the I.G. of the E.S. & R. of the T. > April 1, 1891. > > Read and Recorded April 11/91. > William Q. Judge, > Sec. U.S." > > > > Pedro From eletzerich@yahoo.com Fri Oct 01 16:39:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63854 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2004 23:39:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2004 23:39:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2004 23:39:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2004 23:39:46 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:39:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040929163849.045ce940@theosophy.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1193 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.84 From: "Erica Letzerich" X-Originating-IP: 80.76.58.14 Subject: Re: special issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD coming out X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Congratulations Eldon, it is really a great issue. Erica --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Eldon B Tucker wrote: > The next issue of THEOSOPHY WORLD will be its 100th. It will be a special > issue devoted to the questions "What is Theosophy?" and "Where is it > going?" It will be sent out on the 1st of October. Be sure to look for this > issue when it comes. > > If you are subscribed to the monthly and do not receive your copy, perhaps > because your mailbox was too full, you will be able to access a copy on the > 2nd of October by going to > > http://www.theos-world.com/archives/current.html > > You can also send me an email requesting a replacement copy. > > Also note that there is no longer a requirement that you subscribe to > THEOSOPHY WORLD if you want to be on theos-talk. All subscribers on that > list have been changed to "Individual Email". If you were only subscribed > there in order to be on theos-talk, and had your email option set to "No > Email" or "Special Notices", you should unsubscribe, since there is on > purpose being on that list unless you actually want to get copies of the > magazine. > > Eldon Tucker From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Oct 01 17:02:38 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86870 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 00:02:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 00:02:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.107) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 00:02:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.113] by n39.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2004 00:02:36 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 00:02:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 418 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.107 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Anand's Question about Besant & Judge as joint outer heads of the ES X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Anand, You wrote to Pedro: > What I heard is Annie Besant was appointed as sole head of the > Esoteric School. Somebody said she and W.Q.Judge were joint heads. > What is your information. I previously quoted from the relevant E.S. documents. Please see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/19102 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/19104 Daniel http://blavatskystudycenter.org From ringding777@t-online.de Fri Oct 01 17:49:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4664 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 00:49:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 00:49:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout10.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.21) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 00:49:28 -0000 Received: from fwd00.aul.t-online.de by mailout10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CDY5X-0002Sg-00; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 02:49:27 +0200 Received: from captainfb78633 (STeMIOZFZezsyeFoAzGECkwvUkqrOA-Ce+mV6NREY1LOefjIM3LI0O@[217.224.210.187]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CDY5H-1DmtjE0; Sat, 2 Oct 2004 02:49:11 +0200 Message-ID: <013d01c4a819$ab3cbdf0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 02:49:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: STeMIOZFZezsyeFoAzGECkwvUkqrOA-Ce+mV6NREY1LOefjIM3LI0O X-TOI-MSGID: d7c6f26e-5753-4a95-8f55-14c28e39edbc X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.21 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Mrs Besant's "leading men" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Judge, who designed the ES of 1888, was appointed by HPB as her successor as head and teacher, without going through the regular initiations and probations of the lays (because he was an adept like HPB and part of herself since aeons) and without temporal limitation. That it was stated that both AB and WQJ held the highest posts did not include that they had the same occult standing. Annie Besant was appointed by HPB as joint ES head in a letter to Judge. These letter appeared out of a sudden within a bulk of papers before Annie Besant in a meeting (Judge precipitated it). As AB as a lay chela was going through the regular initiations she was offered the post by HPB:. for a special time period of probation. Part of this probation was a precipitated duplicate of HPB's occult ring (but one without locket). She was never appointed as teacher in the ES and she was not aware that Judge was - to be a little tolkienike - the master of the ring. In 1894 after some trials the period of probation and connected with it the post of co-head (not the post as teacher), after she felt into the hands of the dugpas, the Eastern Jesuits, and after three compassionate and unmistaken warnings of Judge, her teacher to whom she was pledged to obey under all circumstances, was stopped "by Masters Order" as He headed the ES circular. Before AB was breaking her pledge three times and after three warnings she recognized Judge in his capacity as a tulku (in a joint ES meeting in her presence he transformed his body to his true Indian body before the ES delegates). AB did not accept the decision of the Master, published the ES documents she found in London as the so-called vol. 3 of The Secret Doctrine with many, many "improvements", "corrections", shortings, new, unmarked insertions and destroyed an unknown number of unpublished material of HPB's inheritance (obviously executing the will of her new teacher), and closed "her" London ES in 1897 as she was able to teach (one is reminded on the repetition only 50 years later in Covina with Conger and James Long). In the meantime lay chela Leadbeater was praising his strange fiction as clairvoyant reading of the Akasha records (or was it rather the dark astral world?) and they had found new food for the sheep and "their" self-styled pseudo-ES was reopened in 1899. Obviously all the new pupils (the old pupils of HPB like Charles Ryan went to New York to Katherine Tingley or remained single fighters like Miss Cleather and her son) have learned not very much from their "teachers" AB & CWL as Steiner reports. When Steiner went to London in 1904 (obviously he was - even as a clairvoyant and Akasha reader for himself!- unaware of the true occult status of AB & CWL), he discovered AB and her followers on the ground with closed eyes, mumbling exoteric mantras and vehemently breathing, became very angry, went back to Berlin and told the German Theosophists was he has discovered in the so-called London ES HQ. Perhaps you intermix the information that AB was appointed head of the Blavatsky Lodge and President of the European Section. But that is quite another story then esoteric matters. To understand Occultism one needs to understand occult language. We have the same exoterix misunderstands when HPB was refering to her successors as messenger of the Masters. Many theosophist even today (after 100 years!) misinterpret her words that after 1897 will no new messenger or Master appear that she had a "unique" status and that really nobody came! What they not understand is that both statements are true: That no messenger came after 1897 and that after 1897 messengers were there! They were there because they were there before 1897 (Tingley and Purucker were there before 1897) and after 1897 they need not to come to the West because they were already in the West! There are many many more examples of stupid exoteric misunderstandings as AB & CWL liked with their prejidiced western minds. Whole organizations are built up on the errors and raping of HPB! The neutral observer sees that the more of these organizations, claiming to be the best followers of HPB, if not the only ones, became exoteric, dead-letter interpreters of HPB words, the more aggressive they become when confronted with esoteric facts. Today the pukka HPB students are lonely wolves as the gnostics in ealry Christendom. To avoid the errors and misinterpretations of HPB's oral and written words in not virtue to them but fundamentalism. They like lies and the maya world. They call it freedom for their lower selves. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anand Gholap" To: Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 12:27 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Mrs Besant's "leading men" Pedro, What I heard is Annie Besant was appointed as sole head of the Esoteric School. Somebody said she and W.Q.Judge were joint heads. What is your information. Regards. Anand Gholap --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "prmoliveira" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, ringding777@t... wrote: > > > > This is a good example to learn how the black magic was > > intruding into the Theosophical Movement in history. > > Annie Besant was "elected" "democratically" by the > > majority > > of the rest of the exoteric branch of the ex TS. > > But she only elected by them because the delegates was > > presented the the lie that it was the wish of the > > Masters, > > standing at the death bed of Olcott. > > Without these lie the dull mass had not supported her > > because Olcott always told that he did not want Besant > > as > > his successor. > > That is the history of the black magic part within the > > Theosophical Movement. > > > Besant's election, like the election of every > international President > of the Adyar TS, was by universal secret ballot. Olcott > initially > had "appointed" her as his successor and later corrected > this by > nominating her, which was his prerogative as > President-Founder. As > Josephine Ransom writes, "even though she was the only > candidate, the > nomination had to be ratified by a two-thirds majority > vote of the > whole international Society." > > > > The work was done as pledged and her [Tingley's] evil > > enemies are > > ashamed, being left to gossip and slander, having no > > intellectual or spiritual counter argument, not even > > HPB's > > ring as an outer sign. > > > Was HPB under "dark" influences when she issued the > following orders > ("H.P. Blavatsky Collected Works", vol. XII, pp.135-137)? > > > "Strictly Private, > Theosophical Society, > E.S. > 19, Avenue Road, > Regent's Park, > London, N.W., March 31, 1891. > > I hereby appoint Mrs. Annie Besant (Councillor of the > E.S.) to be my > agent and representative during her visit to the U.S. > > She is directed to call together Lodges and Groups of the > E.S. > whenever practicable and to explain such matters as are > necessary. > Bro. W. Q. Judge is requested to give Mrs. Besant all the > aid > necessary for this undertaking. > > H. P. BLAVATSKY .'. > Head of the E.S. > > > Read and Recorded April 11/91, > > WILLIAM QUAN JUDGE > Sec. U.S. > > > E. S. > O R D E R > > I hereby appoint in the name of the MASTER, Annie Besant > Chief > Secretary of the Inner Group of the Esoteric Section & > Recorder of > the Teachings. > > H. P. B. .'. > > > To Annie Besant, C.S. of the I.G. of the E.S. & R. of the > T. > April 1, 1891. > > Read and Recorded April 11/91. > William Q. Judge, > Sec. U.S." > > > > Pedro Yahoo! Groups Links From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Oct 01 18:20:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80160 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 01:20:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 01:20:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 01:20:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2004 01:20:57 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 01:20:57 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <013d01c4a819$ab3cbdf0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6573 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.75 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Frank on the Esoteric School X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Frank, I find your account below quite interesting but I am also quite puzzled by many of your statements. For example, you write: "Judge, who designed the ES of 1888, was appointed by HPB as her successor as head and teacher...." What do you base this statement on? Where is the document that shows that "Judge... was appointed by HPB as her successor as head and teacher...."? You also write: "Annie Besant was appointed by HPB as joint ES head in a letter to Judge. These letter appeared out of a sudden within a bulk of papers before Annie Besant in a meeting (Judge precipitated it)." "As AB as a lay chela was going through the regular initiations she was offered the post by HPB:. for a special time period of probation." What letter to Judge? Are you saying that THIS letter to Judge from HPB appeared all of a sudden in a bulk of papers? You also say Besant was offered the post by HPB for a special time period... Again where are you obtaining this information? Can you tell us what documents you are basing your opinion on? Again, you write: "... after three compassionate and unmistaken warnings of Judge, her teacher to whom she was pledged to obey under all circumstances, was stopped 'by Masters Order' as He headed the ES circular." Are you saying that Judge was Besant's teacher???? Who was Besant's teacher?? Again where are you getting this information from? You also make many other assertions and I wonder what are your sources? I would suggest that readers should be as cautious in accepting many of your statements as they should be of various statements made on this forum in favor of Besant and Leadbeater. Daniel http://hpb.cc --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, ringding777@t... wrote: > Judge, who designed the ES of 1888, was appointed by HPB as > her successor as head and teacher, without going through the > regular initiations and probations of the lays (because he > was an adept like HPB and part of herself since aeons) and > without temporal limitation. That it was stated that both AB > and WQJ held the highest posts did not include that they had > the same occult standing. > > Annie Besant was appointed by HPB as joint ES head in a > letter to Judge. These letter appeared out of a sudden > within a bulk of papers before Annie Besant in a meeting > (Judge precipitated it). > As AB as a lay chela was going through the regular > initiations she was offered the post by HPB:. for a special > time period of probation. Part of this probation was a > precipitated duplicate of HPB's occult ring (but one without > locket). She was never appointed as teacher in the ES and > she was not aware that Judge was - to be a little > tolkienike - the master of the ring. > In 1894 after some trials the period of probation and > connected with it the post of co-head (not the post as > teacher), after she felt into the hands of the dugpas, the > Eastern Jesuits, and after three compassionate and > unmistaken warnings of Judge, her teacher to whom she was > pledged to obey under all circumstances, was stopped "by > Masters Order" as He headed the ES circular. > Before AB was breaking her pledge three times and after > three warnings she recognized Judge in his capacity as a > tulku (in a joint ES meeting in her presence he transformed > his body to his true Indian body before the ES delegates). > > AB did not accept the decision of the Master, published the > ES documents she found in London as the so-called vol. 3 of > The Secret Doctrine with many, many "improvements", > "corrections", shortings, > new, unmarked insertions and destroyed an unknown number of > unpublished material of HPB's inheritance (obviously > executing the will of her new teacher), and closed "her" > London ES in 1897 as she was able to teach (one is reminded > on the repetition only 50 years later in Covina with Conger > and James Long). In the meantime lay chela Leadbeater was > praising his strange fiction as clairvoyant reading of the > Akasha records (or was it rather the dark astral world?) and > they had found new food for the sheep and "their" > self-styled pseudo-ES was reopened in 1899. Obviously all > the new pupils (the old pupils of HPB like Charles Ryan went > to New York to Katherine Tingley or remained single fighters > like Miss Cleather and her son) have learned not very much > from their "teachers" AB & CWL as Steiner reports. > When Steiner went to London in 1904 (obviously he was - even > as a clairvoyant and Akasha reader for himself!- unaware of > the true occult status of AB & CWL), he discovered AB and > her followers on the ground with closed eyes, mumbling > exoteric mantras and vehemently breathing, became very > angry, went back to Berlin and told the German Theosophists > was he has discovered in the so-called London ES HQ. > > Perhaps you intermix the information that AB was appointed > head of the Blavatsky Lodge and President of the European > Section. But that is quite another story then esoteric > matters. > > To understand Occultism one needs to understand occult > language. We have the same exoterix misunderstands when HPB > was refering to her successors as messenger of the Masters. > Many theosophist even today (after 100 years!) misinterpret > her words that after 1897 will no new messenger or Master > appear that she had a "unique" status and that really nobody > came! What they not understand is that both statements are > true: That no messenger came after 1897 and that after 1897 > messengers were there! They were there because they were > there before 1897 (Tingley and Purucker were there before > 1897) and after 1897 they need not to come to the West > because they were already in the West! There are many many > more examples of stupid exoteric misunderstandings as AB & > CWL liked with their prejidiced western minds. Whole > organizations are built up on the errors and raping of HPB! > The neutral observer sees that the more of these > organizations, claiming to be the best followers of HPB, if > not the only ones, became exoteric, dead-letter interpreters > of HPB words, the more aggressive they become when > confronted with esoteric facts. Today the pukka HPB students > are lonely wolves as the gnostics in ealry Christendom. To > avoid the errors and misinterpretations of HPB's oral and > written words in not virtue to them but fundamentalism. They > like lies and the maya world. They call it freedom for their > lower selves. > > Frank > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Oct 01 18:24:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1538 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 01:24:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 01:24:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 01:24:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.140] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2004 01:24:19 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 01:24:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 154 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.90 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Alice L. Cleather Writes about Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell "Alice L. Cleather Writes about Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley" See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokescleather.htm Daniel H. Caldwell http://hpb.cc From jjhe@charter.net Fri Oct 01 18:33:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56054 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 01:33:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 01:33:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf10.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.210) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 01:33:31 -0000 Received: from mxip16.cluster1.charter.net (mxip16a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.146]) by mxsf10.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i921XU0Y019527 for ; Fri, 1 Oct 2004 21:33:30 -0400 Received: from 68-116-80-89.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip16.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 01 Oct 2004 21:33:30 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.85,119,1094443200"; d="scan'217,208"; a="374313296:sNHT17028434" Message-ID: <415E056D.3080508@charter.net> Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 18:33:33 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-GB; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <000401c4a74b$8c818220$1187b2d1@u7k5a4> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.210 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Mrs Besant's "leading men" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit She also ran unopposed. jhe >>In 1907, when also accused of being deluded by Leadbeater, she was >>elected President of the TS with overwhelming support from members >>world wide. During the 26 years of her presidency the growth of TS >>Lodges and members was exponential, reaching 45,000 in 1928. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 01 19:56:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42530 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 02:56:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 02:56:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 02:56:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.160] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2004 02:56:49 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 02:56:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 365 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.88 From: "nhcareyta" X-Originating-IP: 203.59.208.104 Subject: Re recent posting X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=193856796 X-Yahoo-Profile: nhcareyta Paul You recently wrote "The Nyingmapa and Kargyutpa sects of Tibetan Buddhism are not the evil monsters portrayed by HPB's ill-informed comments on them." Would you have any specific references where HPB mentions these two sects by name rather than her and the Mahatmas'general comments on Red Caps and the apparent implications therefrom? Kind regards Nigel From samblo@cs.com Sat Oct 02 01:07:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12206 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 08:07:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 08:07:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 08:07:37 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.7.) id r.1ea.2b73e4d9 (3988) for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2004 04:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1ea.2b73e4d9.2e8fbbc5@cs.com> Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 04:07:33 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.207 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Alice L. Cleather Writes about Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, Thanks for the link. I read the Cleather excepts. But I also saw the see "Two Photos of Some of the Main Characters in the Judge-Tingley Controversy." Clicking on that and looking at the second of the two Photos which is the "Point Loma Theosophical Society, Temple of Peace" caption, I noticed all the male members were wearing some sort of "uniform" as standard apparel, 27 of the men sitting there wore the same outfit. Why is this if any one can detail the reason? John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ringding777@t-online.de Sat Oct 02 03:30:08 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13486 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 10:30:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 10:30:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout09.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.84) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 10:30:07 -0000 Received: from fwd00.aul.t-online.de by mailout09.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CDh9S-0000ZH-03; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:30:06 +0200 Received: from captainfb78633 (XpNY8eZXYeIp-vyogoItswuw3V7M7YBr3KQnABu2f6vREiAw6FY6sH@[217.224.210.187]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CDh9P-1aVuKW0; Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:30:03 +0200 Message-ID: <016901c4a86a$d1078ff0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:20:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: XpNY8eZXYeIp-vyogoItswuw3V7M7YBr3KQnABu2f6vREiAw6FY6sH X-TOI-MSGID: d586b961-a0cc-447f-be8a-66e9241229db X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.84 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Frank on the Esoteric School X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Daniel: Where is the document that shows that "Judge... was appointed by HPB as her successor as head and teacher...."? Daniel, the statement is from ES documents. Ask someone who has them. Joseph Fussell in one of his pamphlets makes all the statements. Thank is all I can say for the moment. Frank From ringding777@t-online.de Sat Oct 02 03:59:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46933 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 10:59:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 10:59:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout10.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.21) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 10:59:32 -0000 Received: from fwd00.aul.t-online.de by mailout10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CDhbv-0005pV-04; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:59:31 +0200 Received: from captainfb78633 (bLkuX2ZeoeZTbJT87FHXUDH+bJtO4CswTdLaumaPK8lUJokp+-G6gT@[217.224.210.187]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CDhbp-1IkbSL0; Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:59:25 +0200 Message-ID: <017501c4a86e$ea16fae0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:59:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: bLkuX2ZeoeZTbJT87FHXUDH+bJtO4CswTdLaumaPK8lUJokp+-G6gT X-TOI-MSGID: 29f0e580-0bc2-42eb-a84d-04df8b799ecb X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.21 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Mrs Besant's "leading men" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Pedro: Besant's election, like the election of every international President of the Adyar TS, was by universal secret ballot. Olcott initially had "appointed" her as his successor and later corrected this by nominating her, which was his prerogative as President-Founder. Pedro, Olcott opposed Besant since she tried to remove him as PTS in 1893. That was part of her trial. But it was Judge's karma as he was her teacher, therefore it was his karmic duty to try all to heal the situation. For this reason he called in 1894 a convention of the American section and it was on motion of Judge resolved unanimously that Olcott was recognized furthermore President for life. Olcott, who has stepped back, against the serious advise of Judge in his letters to him, changed his view and canceled his step back. Since this experience, reinforced in 1906 at the Leadbeater scandal, he did not want her as PTS. First AB claimed that she was appointed by the Masters, who allegedly stood as HSO's death bed in Adyar. But sceptical members found out that she was at this time (Febr. 1907) on a large oversea voyage and not in Adyar. Then the story was changed a little bit and a friend of her alleged to have been the "eyewitness" of the Masters "astral bodies" at Olcott's death bed. For this reason she was elected by the delegates. They were stupid enough to believe this nonsense. From an esoteric point of view the incident could be regarded as a trial (both for Besant and the membership) and a selection. Besides this questionable testinomy of hysteric and lying women there is no evidence that HSO and/or Masters want her as PTS. Pedro: Josephine Ransom writes, "even though she was the only candidate, the nomination had to be ratified by a two-thirds majority vote of the whole international Society." That is a good sign from one side: One third of the members did not went into that trap. When I attended the 100th German Section Anniversary with the Adyar HQ people I felt they have learned NOTHING in the last hundred years. The "Masters" (including HPB and Krishnamurti!) were allegedly still flying around their heads. Can a sect more harmful to the spirutal health of humanity as this black magic danger. coming from Besant and Leadbeater? Pedro: Was HPB under "dark" influences when she issued the following orders ("H.P. Blavatsky Collected Works", vol. XII, pp.135-137)? "Strictly Private, Theosophical Society, E.S. [snip] Pedro, I do not understand your logic. Why should HPB have bed under dark influences. She was under white influence when she gave AB such a big opportunity. In eastern occultism it is a big favor of a chela to get a duty from his teacher. Western people seem to think otherwise. What the dark thing in this case is that she had the opportunity and missed it. That is tragic from the esoteric and understandable from the exoteric point of view. It was part of her training as councillor to call ES meetings. But she never had the post of a teacher in the ES. If you start a job by McDonald's, selling meatballs, the call you in the usual cant "counter manager". But if a friend asks you about your profession and you answer: I am manager by McDonald's your friend may be lead to wrong conclusions as obviously there are many managers at McDonald's, one manager selling the meatballs, one manager with a Rolls Royce counting the banknotes. What a luck for the freemason that they are all equal! From ringding777@t-online.de Sat Oct 02 04:00:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding777@t-online.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78607 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 11:00:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 11:00:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailout10.sul.t-online.com) (194.25.134.21) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 11:00:33 -0000 Received: from fwd00.aul.t-online.de by mailout10.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CDhbv-0005pV-01; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 12:59:31 +0200 Received: from captainfb78633 (EXLawZZZZevau6VnFPYGTpOmvGoi5NP1AXka3ZGzMQcggdjaYaLawo@[217.224.210.187]) by fwd00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1CDhbn-1IkbSK0; Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:59:23 +0200 Message-ID: <017401c4a86e$e993e830$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> To: References: Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 12:32:00 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ID: EXLawZZZZevau6VnFPYGTpOmvGoi5NP1AXka3ZGzMQcggdjaYaLawo X-TOI-MSGID: df679093-4747-4e0a-a25b-b842bd5b4d76 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 194.25.134.21 X-eGroups-From: ringding777@t-online.de (Frank Reitemeyer) From: ringding777@t-online.de Subject: Re: Theos-World Alice L. Cleather Writes about Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=190924709 X-Yahoo-Profile: frank_reitemeyer Daniel, one should consider that Miss Cleather a lay chela at probation level - and the Inner Group of the ES was of course such one, don't? - obviously was not informed by HPB about higher occult matters as to the question of successorship, what a messenger is and how a chela is trained to recognize him (in the quarrel about Alan Donant's Conger pamphlet about successorship after de Purucker this information that some of the ES student were set aside for this reason turned out. We have the same procedere in the eastern schools of the gelukpas. I do not say that Cleather did not honestly say what seemed to her to be the truth, but she was unable to accept that there was higher knowledge to which she had no access. All what the text you have linked gives is the opinion of Miss Cleather, a proof of her non-knowledge, nothing more. The statements of Miss Cleather could likewise be drawn to any other topic wiht the same result. At HPB's London time the doctrine of the inner and outer rounds was too high to make it public and to the general audience - including the lower three lay degrees IG, ES, LOL - only generalized information was given. Ininstructed persons took these generalized information - blinds - as a literally truth and Sinnett, Leadbeater and Farthing made a blind beleif dogma out of it without understanding of the inner meaning. Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 3:24 AM Subject: Theos-World Alice L. Cleather Writes about Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley "Alice L. Cleather Writes about Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley" See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokescleather.htm Daniel H. Caldwell http://hpb.cc Yahoo! Groups Links From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Sat Oct 02 06:00:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4439 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 13:00:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 13:00:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.103) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 13:00:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.128] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2004 13:00:29 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:00:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3631 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.103 From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.232 Subject: Genealogy Physical and Spiritual X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson This week I made my first visit to the Bertie County Courthouse in Windsor, North Carolina, and after a couple of hours emerged with copies of 33 19th-century deeds recording the land transactions of my Johnson ancestors. Handling these original documents conveyed quite a stronger "charge" than reading on microfilm at the State Archives in Raleigh. The thrill of anticipation as I drove to Windsor, and the awe of handling century-and-a-half old documents recording my great-great-grandparents' connection to the earth, were remarkably similar to the feelings I had when doing the research that led to my books. Heading to Virginia Beach to use the ARE Library or interview people who had known Edgar Cayce evoked the same thrill and awe. I had known it before while tracing the steps of the TS Founders across India, and later using the library at Duke University, rich in Indian history studies, to get background information on the individuals they were involved with in India. Gurdjieff calls it "magnetic center," that mysterious thing inside us that vibrates in resonance to objects of spiritual longing. It led me to pursue the spiritual genealogies of Blavatsky and Cayce=97that is, to try to identify the ancestries of the doctrines synthesized in their writings (and Readings) and the stories of how those teachings evolved. But there are huge and significant differences between pursuing one's literal physical genealogy and pursuing intellectual or spiritual genealogies of individuals with religious followings. I've come to know dozens of new people in the last three years, distant kin intrigued by the same ancestors. And whatever information I uncover about our ancestors, or whatever hypotheses it inspires, have been eagerly welcomed and appreciated. If great-great-granddaddy was a deserter, an adulterer, a murderer (and one of them appears to have been all these things), none of my fellow family historians is aghast, furious, or disappointed. They're fascinated and intrigued. It never occurs to them to say that because I'm "claiming" he was those things, that it proves what an unspiritual mind I have, or that I'm inspired by evil forces, or trying to tear down his reputation in order to make money. None of the unflattering information I've uncovered about ancestors has ever inspired anyone to declare me subhuman as was recently done here to another historical researcher! What accounts for this difference? Physical kinship is undeniable and cannot be taken away. If great-great-granddaddy was an adulterous murderous deserter, that in no way detracts from his great-greatness. It's a fact, not subject to threat by any information unearthed.=20 Whereas the great greatness of any spiritual leader is perceived as something vulnerable to attack. And if they aren't so great great as we imagined them to be, our relationship to them begins to seem less worthwhile. No one can declare me not to be cousin Paul any more because of what I tell them about some black sheep uncle. But they sure as hell can tell me I'm not a Theosophist, or even a decent human being, if the black sheep "uncle" is some revered figure in Theosophical history.=20 This family history research looks to be a project that will take up the rest of my life, so I don't foresee any return to "spiritual" topics. And yet what topic is any more spiritual than tracing and understanding one's connections to the source of all life? Ultimately that is the quest of the genealogist, and explains the rapid rise of popularity of this pursuit thanks to the advances made possible by the Internet. Paul Johnson=20=20 From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Oct 02 06:40:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61206 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 13:40:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 13:40:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (195.41.46.237) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 13:40:04 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44f4c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.79.76]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 94C87262834 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 2004 15:40:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <01cf01c4a886$1f33d0b0$4c4fa450@khidr> To: References: <004601c4a7f3$001b57e0$b692b3d1@DALLAS> Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 15:45:46 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.41.46.237 From: "Morten N. Olesen" Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: The role of the Teacher or moderator ??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Dallas and all, My views are: 1. Original teachings vs. moderation Dallas wrote: "I see many who desire "something new." Why? When they have yet to master to "original teachings?" Without a secure foundation what is to be achieved?" I have answered on this view of yours a few weeks back. In the email was a short story: "THE KNOTS STANDING IN THE WAY OF THE TEXTILES" Try read the whole of my short email: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/18473 What the email said was basically, that you can NOT easily break fossilized thought-patterns within theosophical groups without introducing "something new". But this new stuff, has to effectively break the fossilized thought-patterns and of course not create mere emotional tribalism and social ritualism within any group or organization. (The younger Seekers problem is however quite often not to confuse emotionalism as being true spirituality.) We agree that Theosophy as Blavatsky taught it was what is called AtmaVidya. (Here I would like to refer to the notes of Bowen http://www.theosophical.ca/SecDoctrineStudy.htm) But without understanding the above, you will not be able to progress very far. That was also why Blavatsky quite often referred to the Mystery Language and the Seven Keys in the book The Secret Doctrine and elsewhere in her writings. But I agree, that those of us who really understand the content of The Secret Doctrine, understands that ALL texts are within that book. - We - do not need to go and read a whole lot of other texts, because ALL texts are within that book in a condensed form. The same goes for the complete set of The Upanishads and a number of other ancient and almost forgotten books. One will know this when reading them in the Akasha. But to say so requires, that you are on a very high level of consciuosness, and since not all of us are that - it would not be adviceable to follow your view, that we only need the original teachings. But we can with great advantage within theosophical groups use them as a solid rock to build on. On this I agree. 2. Eldon's moderation guidelines Dallas wrote: "A moderator tries to keep the flow of discussion within certain boundaries -- chiefly of moderation in language and expression. It is not easy. The more so, since "brotherhood" forbids excluding anyone, unless there is some gross expression of animosity or of untheosophical statements." Exactly. I think that it is the debate of Theosophy within certain limits of compassion while we remember this view of yours Dallas, (a view Blavatsky presented as being the idea with The Theosophical Society when it had debates.), which is the path forward to such a forum like Theos-Talk. Too many ties on the debate will not be helpful. Oversensitivity is not to be praised as the hallmark of being a member. But wise moderation will do very well. I personally think that what Eldon have offered as new guidelines for Theos-Talk will work. And that the later additional ideas are covered by Eldon's ideas. So Let Eldon pratice what he has offered the group. And let the group practise it using the theosophical words of Universal Brotherhood (or Sisterhood) as the cornerstone. Sometimes I wonder about creating either 3 interconnected Yahoo forums. 1. Beginner forum (ask questions forum - and a daily read from a TS book) 2. Advanced forum 3. A forum to those who are cursed with oversensitivity and other similar problems. -or - just one single PHPbb forum containing all three and if needed several others. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" To: Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 10:11 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: The role of the Teacher or moderator ??? Oct 1 2004 Re: Moderating a chat-list Dear M, It is well to think on the idea that HPB and the Masters are alive and well and working with all true students. I think it is important to become familiar with what HPB wrote in every case. Remember that she was the "Messenger" of the real Mahatmas -- the TEACHERS OF WISDOM -- who never "die." There is enough material in her books and articles to keep us busy for a good long time. I would say that in those pages lies our assignment for the present incarnation -- to learn and to understand. Hallo A "moderator" in not necessarily a "teacher." A moderator tries to keep the flow of discussion within certain boundaries -- chiefly of moderation in language and expression. It is not easy. The more so, since "brotherhood" forbids excluding anyone, unless there is some gross expression of animosity or of untheosophical statements. As I understand THEOSOPHY states early in S D Vol. 1 that every human being is a deathless immortal MONAD (Atma-Buddhi). It reincarnates and grows wiser if it lives a life of strict morality and brotherhood. In the SECRET DOCTRINE, [ S D I 178, 326, 570, II 57] HPB defines the Monad as a conjoint entity made up of two poles: SPIRIT and MATER. Between these two is the intelligent MIND. [ S D I 75; II 58-9] Its function is to look both ways and serve continually as a link between these two. Thus the Monad in evolution (you and me) are three-fold. [S D I 570; II 57] It is the mind which is trying to make of itself a universally self-conscious entity.[ S D I 334fn, 192-3; II 79-80, 93, 103, 113, 167 At present we are self-conscious -- of the 2 selves: The "Self of Spirit," [ S D I 106; II 640] and the "self of matter." [S D II 110, 163, 422, Best wishes, Dallas -------------------------------------- "In the introduction to the SECRET DOCTRINE, H.P.Blavatsky boldly affirms the existence of a great Fraternity of Men, Adepts, who preserve the true philosophy through all changes, now revealing it, and again, at certain eras, withdrawing it from a degraded age; and emphatically she says that the doctrine is never a new one, but only a handing on again of what was always the system... [Further she adds] in the twentieth century of our era scholars will begin to recognize that the S.D. has neither been invented nor exaggerated, but, on the contrary, simply outlined; and finally, that its teachings antedate the Vedas." "...the Messenger from the great Fraternity--she herself being the one for this Century--she observes significantly: that "In Century the 20th some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proof that there exists a science called Gupta-Vidya; and that, [it] the source of all religions and philosophies now known to the world...is at last found." WQJ ART II 81-2 "[ According to HPB ]...there are certain persons on this earth, living and working as ordinary human beings and members of society, whose informing divine part is so immeasurably high in development that they as such high beings have a definite status and function in the "supersensuous regions."...she herself was such a case, and that "H P B" whether hourly in the day or at night when all around was still, had a "status and function" in other spheres where she consciously carried on the work of that high station, whatever it was...[She wrote in one place] " I am conscious day and night, and have much to do and to endure in both these existences from which you, being half-conscious, are happily saved." WQJ ART I 616 [ a compassionate cut by M. Sufilight] From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sat Oct 02 06:53:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42394 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 13:53:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 13:53:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO GBRonline.com) (69.9.90.15) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 13:53:23 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com (unverified [209.12.90.126]) by GBRonline.com (GBRonline.com Mail System) with ESMTP id 7902818 for multiple; Sat, 02 Oct 2004 08:53:21 -0500 CDT Return-Path: Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20041002085022.04b83440@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 08:54:02 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com,theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 69.9.90.15 From: MKR Subject: Re: Theos-World Genealogy Physical and Spiritual X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the greatest and highly revered religious Hindu giant in India was considered by tradition born out of wedlock. So no one should expect any thing to be shocking. mkr At 01:00 PM 10/02/04 +0000, kpauljohnson wrote: >If great-great-granddaddy was a >deserter, an adulterer, a murderer (and one of them appears to have >been all these things), none of my fellow family historians is aghast, >furious, or disappointed. ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 09/28/04 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Sat Oct 02 07:22:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28381 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 14:22:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 14:22:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 14:22:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.183] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2004 14:21:54 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 14:21:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 915 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.82 From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.232 Subject: Red hat= Nyingmapa X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Dear Nigel, I thought I recalled seeing both these sects ID'd as red hats but this site has three rather than two hat colors: http://www.karmapa.org.nz/articles/2001/kranti-3.html calling the Kargyutpa black hats. No, neither the HPB writings nor the MLs say who the red hats are, but that is a matter of historical record, no? I have heard it speculated at a Theosophical History conference that she/they really meant the Bonpa and not the red hats. Paul --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "nhcareyta" wrote: > Paul > You recently wrote "The Nyingmapa and Kargyutpa sects of Tibetan > Buddhism are not the evil monsters portrayed by HPB's ill-informed > comments on them." > Would you have any specific references where HPB mentions these two > sects by name rather than her and the Mahatmas'general comments on > Red Caps and the apparent implications therefrom? > Kind regards > Nigel From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Oct 02 08:10:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54313 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 15:10:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 15:10:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.42) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 15:10:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.5] by n8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2004 15:10:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by mailer5.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2004 15:10:05 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 15:10:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <016901c4a86a$d1078ff0$152ca8c0@captainfb78633> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 347 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.42 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Re: Frank on the Esoteric School X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Frank, you write: > Daniel, the statement is from ES documents. > Ask someone who has them. > Joseph Fussell in one of his pamphlets makes all the > statements. > Thank is all I can say for the moment. Frank, I have the ES documents. Which specific documents are you referring to? And what Fussell pamphlet are you referring to? Daniel From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sat Oct 02 08:24:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89500 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2004 15:24:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2004 15:24:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.49) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2004 15:24:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2004 15:23:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.115] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2004 15:23:18 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 15:23:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1812 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.94.237.49 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Dugpas --- Red in their Auras. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Quoted from: http://blavatskyarchives.com/koothoomicommentaries.htm "On the astral and psychic planes the Masters are always stronger than the Dugpas, because there, good is stronger than evil. But on our material plane, evil is stronger than good, and the Adepts having to exercise cunning if acting on this plane, (which is contrary to their natures) encounter great difficulty and can only palliate evil effects. In powers not good there is an absence of good, but not presence of evil, and the higher you go, the more does evil become the absence of good. The first exercise of Dugpaship is to psychologize people. Every man has a potential Dugpa in him. When the 6th Race reaches its close, there will be no more Dugpas. A Dugpa may become converted during life, at the expense of terrible suffering and trials. Dugpas are usually destroyed by Kundalini, the astral fire. They consume themselves. The Dugpa is forced to his own destruction. He becomes fascinated, runs into the evil current and so destroys himself.