From samblo@c... Wed Sep 01 02:38:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@c... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88339 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 09:38:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 09:38:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d23.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.137) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 09:38:52 -0000 Received: from Samblo@c... by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.4.) id r.29.60965c01 (3980) for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:38:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <29.60965c01.2e66f2a8@c...> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:38:48 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.137 From: samblo@c... Subject: Re: Theos-World Great Adepts and Trained Seers: Knowledge of Spiritual Facts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, I wonder if you or Dallas might have in your archive an article in the Theosophist-July 1882 in which Madame Blavatsky makes reference to a Tamil Saint Ramalingam. I am reading a work that makes mention of Madame Blavatsky and Theosophy correlating with Ramalingam. I would really appreciate it if you have this article that you might post it. Thanks, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@a... Wed Sep 01 02:43:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@a... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70077 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 09:43:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 09:43:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 09:43:13 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@a... by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.4.) id r.15d.3e238542 (3964) for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <15d.3e238542.2e66f374@a...> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:42:12 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.207 From: leonmaurer@a... Subject: Re: Theos-World Working with controversy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 08/31/04 7:09:19 AM, global-theosophy@a... writes: > >So Leon having Sex is mostly not a totally selfish activity. >I thought you knew that? When did I ever say that I didn't? But, Morten, what does "having Sex" to do with gaining spiritual wisdom or achieving enlightenment? (Which is what this discussion is all about, isn't it?) Case in point (which you might appreciate. :-) My late Sufi Darvish friend, M. G., a mountain climber (did Everest) and famous Persian author (14 books in Parsi and two in Swedish) -- who was also a consummate rake and a sexual athlete -- always said that whatever he did outwardly had justification in the Koran, and in the poetry of Rumi and Omar Khayam, but had nothing to do with the attainment of spiritual knowledge or enlightenment. (He was very versed in theosophical metaphysics which we discussed in great length.) Besides having sex with any woman he met whom he could charm, he "whirled" for the experience of ecstasy (and also smoked pot and opium ;) -- but made no claims that any of it was a spiritual experience. BTW, since his inflammatory books in Iran put him on the CIA hit list, he sneaked into the US by "jumping ship" of a tour group from Sweden (he was married to the daughter of the Swedish ambassador to Iran, had a Swedish passport, and two very European cultured teen aged children whom I met when they visited their father in America)... And spent two years here writing a book called the "All American Girl" about his sexual escapades while exploring the whole country, and mountain climbing in the Grand Tetons, living in a small van that was decorated inside like a Nomad Sheik's tent. Unfortunately, when he went back to Tehran (after a third year underground in NYC) they caught him making a pass at (talking to) a married Moslem woman, dug up an older conviction on the same charge (from which he originally escaped stoning by bribing a guard, and running to Sweden) and they executed him (BTW, they still "stone" people who commit sexual crimes in Iran)... Even though he was instrumental in the overthrow of the Shah, coined the words "American Satan" in one of his books, and was a friend of the first Mullah Khomeini as well as the current President of Iran. Incidentally, I still have the original edited manuscript of his book in English (written, more or less in the style of Hemingway, whom he admired) which he willed to me... But, no one would publish it, since it was too insightful about the emasculation of American males, and too explicit about American women's sexual relationships with their dogs.:-) So much for being a Sufi monk -- er-- Darvish. (I understand the word actually means "outlaw." ;-) As for me being a theosophical monk, considering that my interest in theosophy is to attain self realization in the most direct manner possible without falling into any sort of ritual monkish traps, I would rather look at it from the standpoint of the Buddha who said, in essence -- there is a time for being a householder, falling in love, and enjoying the pleasures of the body along with the satisfaction of raising a family -- but there is also a time when all that becomes meaningless and the soul must set out to become one with the universal Soul, which makes no distinctions between individuals, and certainly separates one's consciousness from the mind and the body. One doesn't have to be a sequestered monk to accomplish all that -- since one can always follow the path of the Master who is "in the world but not of the world." I'm sure Jesus enjoyed being "anointed" (today we say "massaged" ;-) with oil by Mary (among other worldly things ;-). And Buddha made no admonitions against having sex whenever it fell in front of one's path. Therefore, intimate emotional and sensory love between two people, and directed toward pleasing each other, whether expressed heterosexually or otherwise, has nothing to do with the impersonal "Love" that encompasses all of nature. Experiencing the so called "ecstasy" of sexual union, still includes an element of self satisfaction and thus contains a degree of selfishness. Even the thought that such an act of giving pleasure to another is unselfish, and considering it as a personal virtue, or as a necessary stage on the path toward spiritual awakening -- is nothing more than a hypocritical rationalization by those who phallically interpret (by identifying it with the lingham -yoni) the yin-yang (creative-receptive) nature of fundamental reality. None of such experiences have any relationship to the ecstasy, which I'd rather call "bliss" of an "impersonal" mystical experience -- that has nothing to do with the sensations of the flesh, the emotional feelings, the rationalizations of the mind about the personal love that accompanies them, or about the unselfishness of such an experience considered as a virtue. Being in love with another individual (personal love) is, essentially, always selfish -- since, if thinking about, seeing, touching, feeling one's supposed loved one didn't make one feel good, that so called "love" would soon evaporate. So, no matter how you shake it, all sexual ecstasy is essentially based on lust rather than "love" (in its true spiritual meaning). And, most long abiding love affairs between two people are usually nothing more than psychological codependency's. HPB made all that perfectly clear when she denigrated the phallic interpretations of those who practice sexual Tantra while they justified that it reflects the true nature of the androgynous reality of the ALL PRESENCE. In my view (as well as HPB's, I'm sure) such practices are a hindrance along the way to true spiritual enlightenment rather than leading toward it... For, once on the true path of self realization, all those experiences have to be put behind and completely forgotten -- since the being who experienced it in the past no longer exists, and all its karma must eventually be totally transcended by the Higher Self... That, once enlightened, can still choose to rest eternally (or at least for one Manvantara) in Nirvana -- or not. And, if not -- why not enjoy the world's pleasures as well as its pains, while helping others attain that same enlightenment... But, don't pretend any of those pleasures (or pains) helps any lesser awakened beings to reach such a state any faster than their own self devised and self determined efforts will allow. Maybe the only thing such ecstatic sexual experiences can teach such a one -- with sufficient repetition (although three should be enough :-) -- is that whatever goes up with fast and furious expression will always come down with just as fast and furious depression. Such proof that the laws of karma never fail could, at least, be one step on the way toward enlightenment. So, sex may have some usefulness in spiritual work after all. (That is, for some less bright people who can't learn that truth in any other less debilitating and less strenuous way. :-) In addition, I don't remember HPB saying anything about one's private sexual practices, other than that it had nothing to do with one's spiritual path. Although, it could be considered a detriment to it, since it's disrupting effect on the brain and mind is not much different than the drugs and alcohol that she said were inimical to spiritual development. I thought you knew all that? ;-) (Although, I'm sure Jerry S. will disagree, since he doesn't believe there is such a thing as an eternal Higher Self. ;-) Leonardo ------------Original Message------ Hallo Leon and all, My views are: To some people climbing the Path or ladder do not absolutly have to happen using the "nun" or "monk" technique. To some people this "massage" of the lower bodies are quite important - to their possibility of adavancing towards more permanent chalaship. Chelaship of the same kind you mention Blavatsky talked about. You Leon are obviously not one of them who needs this path. So the "monk" path is your path? I agree, that the physical intercourse it self is not what we aim for - in the end of our devleopment. Then we use it like Dallas mentioned - when there is a spiritual need for an individual to be born and else not. The problem is, as I see it, - that these issues was not described very well by the main theosophists - Blavatsky included. I am not the only one having a different view than you on this. I will allow myself to quote Jerry S.: "The sex act, and yes I can still remember it, need not be selfish at all. If done as an exression of love, it is part of human intimacy and a wonderful way to express love between two people. The sensation of a loving orgasm is the closest experience that we human beings have to the ecstasy of a mystical experience. The object should be to bring enjoyment to one's partner, not to oneself." So Leon having Sex is mostly not a totally selfish activity. I thought you knew that? from M. Sufilight From anton_rozman@y... Wed Sep 01 02:53:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: anton_rozman@y... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48866 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 09:53:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 09:53:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 09:53:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.131] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2004 09:53:06 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:53:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 14827 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.83 From: "Anton Rozman" X-Originating-IP: 82.192.56.78 Subject: Re: Working with controversy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=192242904 X-Yahoo-Profile: anton_rozman Hi Perry and all, figuratively speaking I imagine theosophy as a table well loaded=20 with spiritual food and that our role in front of it is double:=20 first, to invite other people to this table saying: "serve=20 yourselves", and second, to explore by ourselves what can we find on=20 that table according to our preference. Fact is that on that table we can find all possible food,=20 contribution of various authors of theosophical provenience:=20 teachings, stories, documents, opinions, etc. Now, the trouble is that we often mix these two roles. Instead of=20 exploring by ourselves what should be the right food for us=20 personally to actually transform ourselves we spent all our time=20 inviting people saying: "this should be the right food for you." If we were really interested in inviting people to the table and in=20 what should be the right food for specific individual or group of=20 people we would ground our proposition on their specific needs, on=20 our first-hand experience and not on our convictions what should be=20 the right food for them, made possibly only by observing it. When we have a relationship between theosophist and an aspirant=20 there usually are no problems involved, for if the aspirant finds=20 his advice reasonable, if he finds him a person of integrity, he=20 will accept his advice. If not, he will abandon him and find another=20 theosophist. Real problem arise when a group of people, an organization, decides=20 that they should help people to choose the right food. Then this=20 becomes a serious problem. People begin to argue according to their=20 convictions or possible experience what should be the right food and=20 forget the very person or people to whom they wanted to offer it. So, to solve the problem people need some agreement how to achieve=20 their goal, they need some method (in the real sense of the world -=20 treading the path) to find common solution of the problem, a new=20 insight, for life is changing perpetually and the food it was=20 possibly adequate yesterday today probably isn't any more. And the preliminary condition for that path and a possible new=20 insight is freedom. What is freedom? Rohit Mehta explains it in this=20 way (I do not have the source text any more, so I am translating=20 back to English, therefore the text will be deficient): "This is obviously a state in which mind is not on a rein of any=20 thing. If the mind has established its own interest then it is=20 doomed to the sphere of this interest. Interest, either financial or=20 psychological, is always established because of safety. When mind=20 establishes the psychological interest it is with the purpose to=20 protect its own sphere of pleasure and continuity. Mind which=20 searches safety remains alien to freedom; it has to accept=20 compulsions of its own interest. Such a mind can not comprehend the=20 joy of creative life." (The Search for Freedom, TPH 1957) Kind regards, Anton --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles" =20 wrote: > Hello Anton and all, > Thanks for your comments and review. > I concur with you that the TS or any other group can gain greatly=20 in > embracing some of these 'technologies' that help facilitate group > cohesion and growth and can work with difficult situations seeing=20 them > as opportunities rather than things to avoid.=20 > Aversion and desire are just 2 sides of the same coin.. >=20 > We generally seek comfort and try to avoid pain at all costs,=20 however > the things we find difficult to face are generally the things we=20 most > need to examine and understand . > Otherwise we become like the Ostrich with its head in the sand. >=20 > The TS leadership by seemingly avoiding and ignoring these issues=20 and > through apparently not supporting the critics of neo-theosophy in > presenting their challenges in the official publications of the TS=20 (as > HPB recommended) are in this case not only going against the=20 principal > of freedom of inquiry but also missing a great opportunity to allow > the society to evolve as a group. > Excluding genuinely researched critisim is dangerous. >=20 > I have seen no evidence of inclusive pro-active encouragement of > critical analysis of these teachings of CWL and AB. > WHY? >=20 > For some unspoken reason these writers seem to be off limits, and=20 the > silence on this is deafening. >=20 > How can the society expect to be taken seriously by free thinkers=20 and > students interested in Socratic methods of debate when this is > glaringly apparent. >=20 > The processes of group dynamics require open and free challenging=20 and > exchange of ideas. >=20 > Without that the process will not work, instead it will stagnate=20 in a > glamor of denial. > So here in lies the problem as I see it. >=20 > A problem has to be acknowledged before any process can start to be > worked with. > I really hope the leadership of the society considers these=20 challenges > in the spirit they are given which is out of a genuine wish to=20 promote > the cause of freedom. > An Occult society should be acutely sensitive to this and aware of=20 its > effect in Universal Mind.=20 >=20 > Regards >=20 > Perry >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Rozman"=20 > wrote: > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Hi Perry, > >=20 > >=20 > > I found your initiative very interesting and tried to somehow=20 > > elaborate it further for theosophical purposes using abridged=20 quotes=20 > > from your and some other sources. > >=20 > >=20 > > Though we can't deny the presence of conflicts (in and between > > the=20 > > theosophical organizations) which your source defines as > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > Quote from: http://www.co-operation.org/pages/conflict. > >=20 > > Conflict exists whenever incompatible activities occur. An=20 activity=20 > > that is incompatible with another is one that prevents, blocks,=20 or=20 > > interferes with the occurrence or effectiveness of the second=20 > > activity. > >=20 > > A controversy occurs when one person's ideas, information,=20 > > conclusions, theories, and opinions are incompatible with those=20 of=20 > > another and the two seek to reach an agreement. > >=20 > > A person experiences conceptual conflict when incompatible ideas=20 > > exist simultaneously in his or her mind or when information=20 being=20 > > received does not seem to fit with what one already knows. An=20 > > individual experiences conceptual conflict when engaged in=20 > > controversy as ideas and arguments are presented that are=20 > > incongruent with one's original position.=20 > >=20 > > Interpersonal conflict occurs when the actions of one person=20 > > attempting to maximize his or her goals prevent, block, or=20 interfere=20 > > with another person attempting to maximize personal goals. > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > and that the results of constructively managed conflicts include, > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > Ibid. > >=20 > > - greater quantity and quality of achievement, complex=20 reasoning,=20 > > and creative problem solving;=20 > > - higher quality decision making;=20 > > - healthier cognitive, social, and psychological development by=20 > > being better able to deal with stress and cope with unforeseen=20 > > adversities;=20 > > - increased motivation and energy to take action; higher quality=20 > > relationships with friends, co-workers, and family members;=20 > > - a greater sense of caring, commitment, joint identity, and=20 > > cohesiveness with an emphasis on increased liking, respect, and=20 > > trust;=20 > > - heightened awareness that a problem exists that needs to be=20 > > solved; and=20 > > - increased incentive to change. > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > I believe that we need different approach, for I suppose that=20 the=20 > > following necessary recognition > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > Ibid. > >=20 > > The constructive resolution of conflict in an ongoing=20 relationship=20 > > requires disputants to recognize that their long-term=20 relationship=20 > > is more important than the result of any short-term conflict. In=20 > > order for long-term mutual interest to be recognized and valued,=20 > > individuals have to perceive their interdependence and be=20 invested=20 > > in each other's well-being. > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > among theosophists already exists and because > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > Ibid. > >=20 > > When mediation fails, the teacher or administrator arbitrates=20 the=20 > > conflict. > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > we have not such authority. Therefore I am more inclined to=20 propose=20 > > the approach of co-operative learning which is > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > Quote from:=20 http://www.ed.gov/pubs/OR/ConsumerGuides/cooplear.html > >=20 > > =85 a successful teaching strategy in which small teams, each with=20 > > students of different levels of ability, use a variety of=20 learning=20 > > activities to improve their understanding of a subject. Each=20 member=20 > > of a team is responsible not only for learning what is taught=20 but=20 > > also for helping teammates learn, thus creating an atmosphere of=20 > > achievement. > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > with following methods > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > Ibid. > >=20 > > Group Investigations are structured to emphasize higher-order=20 > > thinking skills such as analysis and evaluation. Students work=20 to=20 > > produce a group project, which they may have a hand in=20 selecting.=20 > >=20 > > Student Teams-Achievement Divisions is used =85 to study what has > > been=20 > > initially taught =85 to help each reach his or her highest level=20 of=20 > > achievement. > >=20 > > In Jigsaw II =85 each team member is responsible for learning a=20 > > specific part of a topic. After meeting with members of other=20 > > groups, who are "expert" in the same part, the "experts" return=20 to=20 > > their own groups and present their findings. Team members then=20 are=20 > > quizzed on all topics. > >=20 > > With more detailed overview on pages: > >=20 > > http://www.co-operation.org/pages/overviewpaper.html > >=20 > > Cooperative Learning, Values, and Culturally Plural Classrooms > > http://www.co-operation.org/pages/CLandD.html > >=20 > > Co-operative learning > > http://edtech.kennesaw.edu/intech/cooperativelearning.htm > >=20 > > ACTIVE AND COOPERATIVE LEARNING > > http://www.ncsu.edu/felder-public/Cooperative_Learning.html > >=20 > > The Co-operative Learning Network > > http://www.sheridanc.on.ca/coop_learn/cooplrn.htm > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > and the collaborative learning which in the following source is=20 > > defined as > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > Quote from:=20 > >=20 http://www.city.londonmet.ac.uk/deliberations/collab.learning/panitz2 > > .html > >=20 > > =85 a personal philosophy, not just a classroom technique. In all=20 > > situations where people come together in groups, it suggests a=20 way=20 > > of dealing with people which respects and highlights individual=20 > > group members' abilities and contributions. There is a sharing=20 of=20 > > authority and acceptance of responsibility among group members=20 for=20 > > the group actions. The underlying premise of collaborative=20 learning=20 > > is based upon consensus building through cooperation by group=20 > > members, in contrast to competition in which individuals best=20 other=20 > > group members. CL practitioners apply this philosophy in the=20 > > classroom, at committee meetings, with community groups, within=20 > > their families and generally as a way of living with and dealing=20 > > with other people. > >=20 > > With some more sources on pages: > >=20 > > THE CONDITIONS FOR EFFECTIVE COLLABORATIVE LEARNING > > http://tecfa.unige.ch/tecfa/research/CMC/colla/iccai95_14.html > >=20 > > Dimensions of Collaborative Learning > >=20 http://www.cs.usask.ca/grads/vsk719/academic/890/project2/node4.html > >=20 > > Computer-Supported Collaborative Learning: Issues for Research > >=20 http://www.cs.usask.ca/grads/vsk719/academic/890/project2/project2.ht > > ml > >=20 > > ONLINE COLLABORATIVE LEARNING > > http://clp.cqu.edu.au/ > >=20 > > And with an example: > > COLLABORATIVE LEARNING FOR ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT > > http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz/research/social/ > >=20 > > ----- > >=20 > > Some ten years ago I had an opportunity to participate in a=20 working=20 > > group moderated by Tran Thi Kim Dieu (TS Adyar). Her way of work=20 in=20 > > certain degree used methods included in these two mentioned=20 > > techniques. It was a wonderful experience for all participants,=20 and=20 > > for me it represented the answer to the question how to realize=20 path=20 > > to new recognitions in a theosophical group work. I think that=20 > > classical theosophical literature doesn't give us appropriate > > answer=20 > > how to successfully organize group work, how to resolve=20 conflicts=20 > > rising between theosophical workers. It says how the things=20 should=20 > > look like but not how to achieve that. On individual level yes,=20 on=20 > > collective level not. If the things would be different there=20 > > wouldn't be so much disagreements and conflicts in the history=20 of=20 > > the theosophical movement. So, I believe that we must adopt in=20 our=20 > > work that knowledge and that technology which science is=20 perpetually=20 > > producing. Then maybe we will also learn why the knowledge that=20 > > theosophical workers possess can't express itself more > > efficiently=20 > > in daily life. > >=20 > > Regards, > > Anton > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles"=20 =20 > > wrote: > > > Perhaps a way the TS can develop as an organisation is by the > > > implementation of some of the techniques used in `group=20 dynamics'=20 > > and > > > conflict resolution. > > > This would be a very powerful and pro-active way of=20 negotiating=20 > > these > > > areas. > > > However group co-operation is required and autocratic systems=20 > > challenged. > > > Some very good information and techniques on the following=20 link,=20 > > it's > > > aimed at schools but still the principles apply to any group > > > interested in inclusion rather than exclusion. > > >=20 > > > http://www.co-operation.org/pages/conflict. > > >=20 > > > Perry > > >=20 > > > "Using Academic Controversy In The Classroom (see Creative > > > Controversy: Intellectual Challenge In The Classroom, Johnson & > > > Johnson, 1995c): In order to maximize student achievement and=20 > > complex > > > reasoning, students need to engage in intellectual conflicts.=20 The > > > procedure for doing so is for members of a cooperative group=20 to (a) > > > research and prepare different positions, (b) make a persuasive > > > presentation of their researched position, (c) refute the=20 opposing > > > position while rebutting attacks on their own position, (d)=20 view=20 > > the > > > issue from a variety of perspectives (i.e., reverse=20 perspectives),=20 > > and > > > (e) synthesize/integrate the opposing positions into one=20 mutually > > > agreed upon position. Frequently structuring academic=20 > > controversies in > > > the classroom allows students to practice their conflict=20 skills=20 > > daily." > > >=20 > > > Quote taken from above website : > > > http://www.co-operation.org/pages/conflict.html#teaching From global-theosophy@a... Wed Sep 01 03:28:52 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@a... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34119 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 10:28:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 10:28:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (195.41.46.237) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 10:28:50 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44f4c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.79.76]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 15813262842 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:28:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <000901c4900f$050b43b0$4c4fa450@khidr> To: References: <15d.3e238542.2e66f374@a...> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:32:43 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.41.46.237 From: "Morten N. Olesen" Subject: Re: Theos-World Working with controversy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Leon and all, My views are: Leon ask: "But, Morten, what does "having Sex" to do with gaining spiritual wisdom or achieving enlightenment? (Which is what this discussion is all about, isn't it?) " Answer: To sink wisdom in ecstacy or to sink ecstacy in wisdom - that is the question when we talk about spiritual development. But we also say, that If there is No ecstacy then there is No wisdom. But wisdom is important and that is why we aught to sink ecstacy in Wisdom. I do not know who that teacher of yours is, but Is Love not important to spiritual development? Are you saying, that having sex has nothing at all to do with love? (A short note: When I mentioned Idries Shah I was talking about a real theosophical Sufi and not a dictator.) I have seen a lot of theosophists running around with big brains when visiting the always present local theosophical group. They all think they have wisdom, but in fact because they lack an understanding of love there is only intellectual fumbling going on in their pretty heads. I see so many theosophists who consider having sex as a being a "sin" similar to a "christian sin". When has loving anyone by having sex with them ever been a sin? I think we can agree, that SOMETHING will happen to the American and European views on sex and sexual relationships in the nearest future to come. The Sex industries are growing very powerful due to the amount of money they earn. And this industry and its more hardcore fractions allowances of all kinds of sexual activities will for sure have to find another level of existence. In The Middle East we will see and are already seeing a growing pressure to release the Sexual tabu's from their long time prison sentences. Somthing will definitely happen. There are today way too many websites in the US and to a lesser degree other countries with excessive and even evil sexual content. This is something the politicians could do something about. But, maybe the Sex industri has bought them? And we all wonder happens in the various orthodox or non-orthodox churches when they close at night? Well the truth is dirty, and someone has to talk about it. And with all the clone and genetic engineering talk, - I wonder where TS Adyar and other theosophical groups are "flying" these days with its strange manner of relating it self to sexuality and sexual relationships. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 11:42 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Working with controversy > > In a message dated 08/31/04 7:09:19 AM, global-theosophy@a... writes: > > > >So Leon having Sex is mostly not a totally selfish activity. > >I thought you knew that? > > When did I ever say that I didn't? > > But, Morten, what does "having Sex" to do with gaining spiritual wisdom or > achieving enlightenment? (Which is what this discussion is all about, isn't > it?) > > Case in point (which you might appreciate. :-) My late Sufi Darvish friend, > M. G., a mountain climber (did Everest) and famous Persian author (14 books in > Parsi and two in Swedish) -- who was also a consummate rake and a sexual > athlete -- always said that whatever he did outwardly had justification in the > Koran, and in the poetry of Rumi and Omar Khayam, but had nothing to do with the > attainment of spiritual knowledge or enlightenment. (He was very versed in > theosophical metaphysics which we discussed in great length.) Besides having > sex with any woman he met whom he could charm, he "whirled" for the experience > of ecstasy (and also smoked pot and opium ;) -- but made no claims that any of > it was a spiritual experience. BTW, since his inflammatory books in Iran put > him on the CIA hit list, he sneaked into the US by "jumping ship" of a tour > group from Sweden (he was married to the daughter of the Swedish ambassador to > Iran, had a Swedish passport, and two very European cultured teen aged > children whom I met when they visited their father in America)... And spent two years > here writing a book called the "All American Girl" about his sexual escapades > while exploring the whole country, and mountain climbing in the Grand Tetons, > living in a small van that was decorated inside like a Nomad Sheik's tent. > > Unfortunately, when he went back to Tehran (after a third year underground in > NYC) they caught him making a pass at (talking to) a married Moslem woman, > dug up an older conviction on the same charge (from which he originally escaped > stoning by bribing a guard, and running to Sweden) and they executed him (BTW, > they still "stone" people who commit sexual crimes in Iran)... Even though he > was instrumental in the overthrow of the Shah, coined the words "American > Satan" in one of his books, and was a friend of the first Mullah Khomeini as well > as the current President of Iran. > > Incidentally, I still have the original edited manuscript of his book in > English (written, more or less in the style of Hemingway, whom he admired) which > he willed to me... But, no one would publish it, since it was too insightful > about the emasculation of American males, and too explicit about American > women's sexual relationships with their dogs.:-) So much for being a Sufi monk -- > er-- Darvish. (I understand the word actually means "outlaw." ;-) > > As for me being a theosophical monk, considering that my interest in > theosophy is to attain self realization in the most direct manner possible without > falling into any sort of ritual monkish traps, I would rather look at it from the > standpoint of the Buddha who said, in essence -- there is a time for being a > householder, falling in love, and enjoying the pleasures of the body along > with the satisfaction of raising a family -- but there is also a time when all > that becomes meaningless and the soul must set out to become one with the > universal Soul, which makes no distinctions between individuals, and certainly > separates one's consciousness from the mind and the body. One doesn't have to be a > sequestered monk to accomplish all that -- since one can always follow the > path of the Master who is "in the world but not of the world." I'm sure Jesus > enjoyed being "anointed" (today we say "massaged" ;-) with oil by Mary (among > other worldly things ;-). And Buddha made no admonitions against having sex > whenever it fell in front of one's path. > > Therefore, intimate emotional and sensory love between two people, and > directed toward pleasing each other, whether expressed heterosexually or otherwise, > has nothing to do with the impersonal "Love" that encompasses all of nature. > Experiencing the so called "ecstasy" of sexual union, still includes an > element of self satisfaction and thus contains a degree of selfishness. Even the > thought that such an act of giving pleasure to another is unselfish, and > considering it as a personal virtue, or as a necessary stage on the path toward > spiritual awakening -- is nothing more than a hypocritical rationalization by those > who phallically interpret (by identifying it with the lingham -yoni) the > yin-yang (creative-receptive) nature of fundamental reality. > > None of such experiences have any relationship to the ecstasy, which I'd > rather call "bliss" of an "impersonal" mystical experience -- that has nothing to > do with the sensations of the flesh, the emotional feelings, the > rationalizations of the mind about the personal love that accompanies them, or about the > unselfishness of such an experience considered as a virtue. Being in love with > another individual (personal love) is, essentially, always selfish -- since, > if thinking about, seeing, touching, feeling one's supposed loved one didn't > make one feel good, that so called "love" would soon evaporate. So, no matter > how you shake it, all sexual ecstasy is essentially based on lust rather than > "love" (in its true spiritual meaning). And, most long abiding love affairs > between two people are usually nothing more than psychological codependency's. > > HPB made all that perfectly clear when she denigrated the phallic > interpretations of those who practice sexual Tantra while they justified that it reflects > the true nature of the androgynous reality of the ALL PRESENCE. In my view > (as well as HPB's, I'm sure) such practices are a hindrance along the way to > true spiritual enlightenment rather than leading toward it... For, once on the > true path of self realization, all those experiences have to be put behind and > completely forgotten -- since the being who experienced it in the past no > longer exists, and all its karma must eventually be totally transcended by the > Higher Self... That, once enlightened, can still choose to rest eternally (or at > least for one Manvantara) in Nirvana -- or not. > > And, if not -- why not enjoy the world's pleasures as well as its pains, > while helping others attain that same enlightenment... But, don't pretend any of > those pleasures (or pains) helps any lesser awakened beings to reach such a > state any faster than their own self devised and self determined efforts will > allow. Maybe the only thing such ecstatic sexual experiences can teach such a > one -- with sufficient repetition (although three should be enough :-) -- is > that whatever goes up with fast and furious expression will always come down > with just as fast and furious depression. Such proof that the laws of karma > never fail could, at least, be one step on the way toward enlightenment. So, sex > may have some usefulness in spiritual work after all. (That is, for some less > bright people who can't learn that truth in any other less debilitating and > less strenuous way. :-) In addition, I don't remember HPB saying anything about > one's private sexual practices, other than that it had nothing to do with > one's spiritual path. Although, it could be considered a detriment to it, since > it's disrupting effect on the brain and mind is not much different than the > drugs and alcohol that she said were inimical to spiritual development. > > I thought you knew all that? ;-) > > (Although, I'm sure Jerry S. will disagree, since he doesn't believe there is > such a thing as an eternal Higher Self. ;-) > > Leonardo > > > ------------Original Message------ > > Hallo Leon and all, > > > My views are: > > > To some people climbing the Path or ladder > > do not absolutly have to happen using the "nun" or "monk" > > technique. > > > To some people this "massage" of the lower bodies are quite important - to > > their possibility of adavancing towards more permanent chalaship. Chelaship > > of the same kind you mention Blavatsky talked about. > > You Leon are obviously not one of them who needs this path. So the "monk" > > path is your path? > > > I agree, that the physical intercourse it self is not what we aim for - in > > the end of our devleopment. Then we use it like Dallas mentioned - when > > there is a spiritual need for an individual to be born and else not. > > > The problem is, as I see it, - that these issues was not described very > > well by the main theosophists - Blavatsky included. > > > I am not the only one having a different view than you on this. > > I will allow myself to quote Jerry S.: > > "The sex act, and yes I can still remember it, need not be selfish at all. > > If done as an exression of love, it is part of human intimacy and a > > wonderful way to express love between two people. The sensation of a loving > > orgasm is the closest experience that we human beings have to the ecstasy > > of a mystical experience. The object should be to bring enjoyment to one's > > partner, not to oneself." > > > So Leon having Sex is mostly not a totally selfish activity. > > I thought you knew that? > > from > > M. Sufilight > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > From eletzerich@y... Wed Sep 01 04:33:27 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@y... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10515 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 11:33:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 11:33:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 11:33:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.143] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2004 11:32:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:32:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000901c4900f$050b43b0$4c4fa450@khidr> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4888 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.70 From: "Erica Letzerich" X-Originating-IP: 80.76.58.14 Subject: Re: Theos-World Favor or Disfavor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Hi, It is a favor or disfavor for theosophical cause, when the name of some theosophists is constantly connected to heavy accusations? How precious time is lost in discussions about the personality and life of some known T.S. fellows? Is this a service for the cause? Or a critical way of thinking based on prejudices and a kind of personal satisfaction to discuss about the weakness of others? Below I am sending some quotes of Blavatsky for reflection. Erica Letzerich ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Neither unpopular characters nor their work are judged in our day on their intrinsic value, but merely on their author's personality and the prejudiced opinion thereon of the masses. In many journals no literary work of a Theosophist can ever hope to be reviewed on its own merits, apart from the gossip about its author. Such papers, oblivious of the rule first laid down by Aristotle, who says that criticism is "a standard of judging well," refuse point blank to accept any Theosophical book apart from its writer. As a first result, the former is judged by the distorted reflection of the latter created by slander repeated in the daily papers. The personality of the writer hangs like a dark shadow between the opinion of the modern journalist and unvarnished truth; and as a final result there are few editors in all Europe and America who know anything of our Society's tenets." H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES Lucifer, Vol. V, No. 26, October, 1889, pp. 85-91 -------------------------------------------------------------------- "but whenever the word "Theosophy" is printed and catches the reader's eye, there it will be generally found preceded and followed by abusive epithets and invective against the personalities of certain Theosophists." H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES Lucifer, Vol. V, No. 26, October, 1889, pp. 85-91 --------------------------------------------------------------------- "How long, O radiant gods of truth, how long shall this terrible mental cecity of the nineteenth century Philosophists last? How much longer are they to be told that Theosophy is no national property, no religion, but only the universal code of science and the most transcendental ethics that was ever known; that it lies at the root of every moral philosophy and religion; and that neither Theosophy per se, nor yet its humble unworthy vehicle, the Theosophical Society, has anything whatever to do with any personality or personalities!" H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES Lucifer, Vol. V, No. 26, October, 1889, pp. 85-91 --------------------------------------------------------------------- "To identify it with these is to show oneself sadly defective in logic and even common sense. To reject the teaching and its philosophy under the pretext that its leaders, or rather one of its Founders, lies under various accusations (so far unproven) is silly, illogical and absurd. It is, in truth, as ridiculous as it would have been in the days of the Alexandrian school of Neo-Platonism, which was in its essence Theosophy, to reject its teachings, because it came to Plato from Socrates, and because the sage of Athens, besides his pug-nose and bald head, was accused of "blasphemy and of corrupting the youth." H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES Lucifer, Vol. V, No. 26, October, 1889, pp. 85-91 --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Aye, kind and generous critics, who call yourselves Christians, and boast of the civilization and progress of your age; you have only to be scratched skin deep to find in you the same cruel and prejudiced "barbarian" as of old." H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES Lucifer, Vol. V, No. 26, October, 1889, pp. 85-91 --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Were an opportunity offered you to sit in public and legal judgment on a Theosophist, who of you would rise in your nineteenth century of Christianity higher than one of the Athenian dikastery with its 50 jurors who condemned Socrates to death? Which of you would scorn to become a Meletus or an Anytus, and have Theosophy and all its adherents condemned on the evidence of false witnesses to a like ignominious death? The hatred manifested in your daily attacks upon the Theosophists is a warrant to us for this. Did Haywood have you in her mind's eye when she wrote of Society's censure: But man, as if a foe to his own species, Takes pleasure to report his neighbour's faults, Judging with rigour every small offence, And prides himself in scandal . . ." * * [This passage is from a tragedy by Eliza Haywood (1693?-1756)" H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES Lucifer, Vol. V, No. 26, October, 1889, pp. 85-91 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From dalval14@e... Wed Sep 01 05:05:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@e... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 474 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 12:04:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by 66.218.66.98 with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 12:04:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 12:04:53 -0000 Received: from pool0031.cvx37-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.24.31] helo=DALLAS) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1C2Tqs-0004CQ-00; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 05:04:34 -0700 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:04:16 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01c4901b$d72269d0$1f18f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.48 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: Re: Pedro again on "ORIGINAL TEACHINGS" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Sept 1 2004 Dear Friends: Some possible misunderstandings have arisen over the fat that many writers in these lists seem to have chosen certain writers as their "authorities."= =20 I find the statements quoted below, if taken as a whole, reconcile any differences. There is no "campaign" against anyone. There is a strong campaign FOR the study, an acquiring individually a deeper, more ready knowledge of what H P B and Mahatmas have taught. So far as we are concerned in the present era those writings represent the latest version of the ancient "Sanatana Dharma" - the perennial WISDOM-RELIGION.=20=20 The Mahatmas have stated HPB was their "messenger" for this age and era.=20 THEOSOPHY, (I mean the "original teachings") if carefully studied and assimilated, will be seen to fit accurately into the vista of religious and occult truths that come to us from the past.=20 But we have to study and verify this for ourselves. No authority shields u= s from errors. No "religion" or "society" provides us a safety-net, unless w= e also study and KNOW for ourselves what is reasonable, logical and probably TRUE.=20 If we insist on reading and studying other writers, how can we be sure that they accurately represent the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS - if we have not also studied those?=20 Thanks for the quote from FIVE MESSAGES by HPB: ORTHODOXY in THEOSOPHY =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D In one of her letters to the American Conventions (April 1888),=20 Madame Blavatsky wrote: "Orthodoxy in Theosophy is a thing neither possible nor desirable. It=20 is diversity of opinion, within certain limits, that keeps the=20 Theosophical Society a living and a healthy body, its many other ugly=20 features notwithstanding.=20 Were it not, also, for the existence of a large amount of uncertainty in th= e minds of students of Theosophy, such healthy divergencies would be impossible, and the Society would degenerate into a sect, in which a narrow and stereotyped creed would take the place of the living and breathing spirit of Truth and an ever growing Knowledge." 5 Mess p. 5 ----------------------------- Here are some additional statements made by HPB in her MESSAGES : ---------------------------- "But you in America. Your Karma as a nation has brought Theosophy home to you. The life of the Soul, the psychic side of nature, is open to many of you.=20 The life of altruism is not so much a high ideal as a matter of practice. Naturally, then, Theosophy finds a home in many hearts and minds, and strikes a resounding harmony as soon as it reaches the ears of those who ar= e ready to listen. There, then, is part of your work: to lift high the torch of Liberty of the Soul of Truth that all may see it and benefit by its light. Therefore it is that the Ethics of Theosophy are even more necessary to mankind than the scientific aspects of the psychic facts of nature and man. With such favorable conditions as are present in America for Theosophy, it is only natural that its Society should increase rapidly and that Branch after Branch should arise. But while the organization for the spread of Theosophy waxes large, we must remember the necessity for consolidation. Th= e Society must grow proportionately and not too rapidly, for fear lest like some children, it should overgrow its strength and there should come a period of difficulty and danger when natural growth is arrested to prevent the sacrifice of the organism.=20 This is a very real fact in the growth of human beings, and we must carefully watch lest the "Greater Child"-the Theosophical Society- should suffer for the same cause.=20 Once before was growth checked in connection with the psychic phenomena, an= d there may yet come a time when the moral and ethical foundations of the Society may be wrecked in a similar way.=20 What can be done to prevent such a thing is for each Fellow of the Society to make Theosophy a vital factor in their lives-to make it real, to weld it= s principles firmly into their lives-in short, to make it their own and treat the Theosophical Society as if it were themselves.=20 Following closely on this is the necessity for Solidarity among the Fellows of the Society; the acquisition of such a feeling of identity with each and all of our Brothers that an attack upon one is an attack upon all. Then consolidated and welded in such a spirit of Brotherhood and Love, we shall, unlike Archimedes, need neither fulcrum nor lever, but we shall move the world. We need all our strength to meet the difficulties and dangers which surround us. We have external enemies to fight in the shape of materialism, prejudice, and obstinacy; the enemies in the shape of custom and religious forms; enemies too numerous to mention, but nearly as thick as the sand-clouds which are raised by the blasting Sirocco of the desert.=20 Do we not need our strength against these foes?=20 Yet, again, there are more insidious foes, who "take our name in vain," and who make Theosophy a by-word in the mouths of men and the Theosophical Society a mark at which to throw mud. They slander Theosophists and Theosophy, and convert the moral Ethics into a cloak to conceal their own selfish objects.=20 And as if this were not sufficient, there are the worst foes of all-those o= f a man's own household,-Theosophists who are unfaithful both to the Society and to themselves.=20 Thus indeed we are in the midst of foes. Before and around us is the "Valle= y of Death," and we have to charge upon our enemies-right upon his guns-if we would win the day. Cavalry-men and horses-can be trained to ride almost as one man in an attack upon the terrestrial plane; shall we not fight and win the battle of the Soul struggling in the spirit of the Higher Self to win our divine heritage? Let us, for a moment, glance backwards at the ground we have passed over.=20 We have had, as said before, to hold our own against the Spiritists, in the name of Truth and Spiritual Science. Not against the students of the true psychic knowledge, nor against the enlightened Spiritualists; but against the lower order of phenomenalists-the blind worshippers of illusionary phantoms of the Dead. These we have fought for the sake of Truth, and also for that of the world which they were misleading.=20 I repeat it again: no "fight" was ever waged against the real students of the psychic sciences. .The experiments made in Hypnotism and Mesmerism at the present time are experiments of unconscious, when not of conscious Blac= k Magic. The road is wide and broad which leads to such destruction; and it i= s but too easy to find; and only too many go ignorantly along it to their own destruction.=20 But the practical cure for it lies in one thing. That is the course of stud= y which I mentioned before. It sounds very simple, but is eminently difficult= ; for that cure is "ALTRUISM."=20 And this is the keynote of Theosophy and the cure for all ills; this it is which the real Founders of the Theosophical Society promote as its first object-UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD. Thus even if only in name a body of Altruists, the Theosophical Society has to fight all who under its cover seek to obtain magical powers to use for their own selfish ends and to the hurt of others.=20 Many are those who joined our Society for no other purpose than curiosity. Psychological phenomena were what they sought, and they were unwilling to yield one iota of their own pleasures and habits to obtain them. These very quickly went away empty-handed.=20 The Theosophical Society has never been and never will be a school of promiscuous Theurgic rites.=20 But there are dozens of small occult Societies which talk very glibly of Magic, Occultism, Rosicrucians, Adepts, etc. These profess much, even to giving the key to the Universe. but end by leading men to a blank wall instead of the "Door of the Mysteries." These are some of our most insidiou= s foes. Under cover of the philosophy of the Wisdom-Religion they manage to get up a mystical jargon which for the time is effective and enables them, by the aid of a very small amount of clairvoyance, to fleece the mystically inclined but ignorant aspirants to the occult, and lead them like sheep in almost any direction. .=20 But woe to those who try to convert a noble philosophy into a den for disgusting immorality, greediness for selfish power, and money making under the cloak of Theosophy. Karma reaches them when least expected. But is it possible for our Society to stand by and remain respected, unless its members are prepared, at least in future, to stand like one man, and deal with such slanders upon themselves as Theosophists, and such vile caricatures of their highest ideals, as these two pretenders have made them= ? But in order that we may be able to effect this working on behalf of ou= r common cause, we have to sink all private differences.=20 Many are the energetic members of the Theosophical Society who wish to work and work hard. But the price of their assistance is that all the work must be done in their way and not in any one else's way. And if this is not carried out they sink back into apathy or leave the Society entirely, loudl= y declaring that they are the only true Theosophists.=20 Or, if they remain, they endeavor to exalt their own method of working at the expense of all other earnest workers. This is fact, but it is not Theosophy. There can be no other end to it than that the growth of the Society will soon be split up into various sects, as many as there are leaders, and as hopelessly fatuous as the 350 odd Christian sects which exist in England alone at the present time.=20 Is this prospect one to look forward to for the Theosophical Society?=20 Is this "Separateness" consonant with the united Altruism of Universal Brotherhood? Is this the teaching of our noble MASTERS?=20 Brothers and Sisters in America, it is in your hands to decide whether it shall be realized or not. You work and work hard.=20 But to work properly in our Great Cause it is necessary to forget all personal differences of opinion as to how the work is to be carried on. Let each of us work in his own way and not endeavor to force our ideas of work upon our neighbors.=20 Remember how the Initiate Paul warned his correspondents against the attitude of sectarianism they took up in the early Christian Church :-"I am of Paul, I of Apollos," and let us profit by the warning.=20 Theosophy is essentially unsectarian, and work for it forms the entrance to the Inner life. But none can enter there save the man himself in the highes= t and truest spirit of Brotherhood, and any other attempt at entrance will either be futile or he will lie blasted at the threshold. But Karma will reconcile all our differences of opinion.=20 A strict account of our actual work will be taken, and the "wages" earned will be recorded to our credit.=20 But as strict an account will be taken of the work which any one, by indulging in personal grievances, may have hindered his neighbors from doing.=20 Think you it is a light thing to hinder the force of the Theosophical Society, as represented in the person of any of its leaders, from doing its appointed work? So surely as there is a Karmic power behind the Society wil= l that power exact the account for its hindrance, and he is a rash and ignorant man who opposes his puny self to it in the execution of its appointed task. Thus, then, "UNION IS STRENGTH ;" and for every reason private differences must be sunk in united work for our Great Cause." 5 Mess pp 12-15 (1889) -------------------------- " What I said last year remains true today, that is, that the Ethics of Theosophy are more important than any divulgement of psychic laws and facts= . [ See Key, pp. 15-6] The latter relate wholly to the material and evanescent part of the septenary man, but the Ethics sink into and take hold of the real man-the reincarnating Ego.=20 We are outwardly creatures of but a day; within we are eternal. =20 Learn, then, well the doctrines of Karma and Reincarnation, and teach, practice, promulgate that system of life and thought which alone can save the coming races. Do not work merely for the Theosophical Society, but through it for Humanity."=20=20=20 5 Mess. p 26 (1890) ------------------------- "The period which we have now reached in the cycle that will close between 1897-98 is, and will continue to be, one of great conflict and continued strain.=20 If the T. S. can hold through it, good; if not, while Theosophy will remain unscathed, the Society will perish-perchance most ingloriously-and the Worl= d will suffer. I fervently hope that I may not see such a disaster in my present body. The critical nature of the stage on which we have entered is as well known to the forces that fight against us as to those that fight on our side.=20 No opportunity will be lost of sowing dissension, of taking advantage of mistaken and false moves, of instilling doubt, of augmenting difficulties, of breathing suspicions, so that by any and every means the unity of the Society may be broken and the ranks of our Fellows thinned and thrown into disarray.=20 Never has it been more necessary for the members of the T. S. to lay to heart the old parable of the bundle of sticks than it is at the present time; divided, they will inevitably be broken, one by one; united, there is no force on earth able to destroy our Brotherhood.=20 Now I have marked with pain a tendency among you, as among the Theosophists in Europe and India, to quarrel over trifles, and to allow your very devotion to the cause of Theosophy to lead you into disunion.=20 Believe me, that apart from such natural tendency, owing to the inherent imperfections of Human Nature, advantage is often taken by our ever-watchfu= l enemies of your noblest qualities to betray and to mislead you. Sceptics will laugh at this statement, and even some of you may put small faith in the actual existence of the terrible forces of these mental, hence subjective and invisible, yet withal living and potent influences around al= l of us. But there they are, and I know of more than one among you who have felt them, and have actually been forced to acknowledge these extraneous mental pressures.=20 On those of you who are unselfishly and sincerely devoted to the Cause, the= y will produce little, if any, impression.=20 On some others, those who place their personal pride higher than their duty to the T. S., higher even than their pledge to their divine SELF, the effec= t is generally disastrous.=20 Self-watchfulness is never more necessary than when a personal wish to lead= . and wounded vanity, dress themselves in the peacock's feathers of devotion and altruistic work; but at the present crisis of the Society a lack of self-control and watchfulness may become fatal in every case. But these diabolical attempts of our powerful enemies- the irreconcilable foes of the truths now being given out and practically asserted-may be frustrated.=20 If every Fellow in the Society were content to be an impersonal force for good, careless of praise or blame so long as he subserved the purposes of the Brother hood, the progress made would astonish the World and place the Ark of the T. S. out of danger. Take for your motto in conduct during the coming year, "Peace with all who love Truth in sincerity," and the Convention of 1892 will bear eloquent witness to the strength that is born of unity. Your position as the fore-runners of the sixth sub-race of the fifth root-race has its own special perils as well as its special advantages. Psychism, with all its allurements and all its dangers, is necessarily developing among you, and you must beware lest the Psychic outruns the Manasic and Spiritual development.=20 Psychic capacities held perfectly under control, checked and directed by th= e Manasic principle, are valuable aids in development. But these capacities running riot, controlling instead of controlled, using instead of being used, lead the Student into the most dangerous delusions and the certainty of moral destruction.=20 Watch therefore carefully this development, inevitable in your race and evolution-period so that it may finally work for good and not for evil; and receive, in advance, the sincere and potent blessings of those whose good-will will never fail you, if you do not fail yourselves." 5 Mess pp 27-29 (1891) ----------------------------------------- "After all, every wish and thought I can utter are summed up in this one sentence, the never-dormant wish of my heart,=20 "Be Theosophists, work for Theosophy !"=20 Theosophy first, and Theosophy last; for its practical realization alone ca= n save the Western world from that selfish and Unbrotherly feeling that now divides race from race, one nation from the other; and from that hatred of class and social considerations that are the curse and dis grace of so-called Christian peoples.=20 Theosophy alone can save it from sinking entirely into that mere luxurious materialism in which it will decay and putrefy as civilizations have done. In your hands, brothers, is placed in trust the welfare of the coming century; and great as is the trust, so great is also the responsibility.=20 My own span of life may not be long, and if any of you have learned aught from my teachings, or have gained by my help a glimpse of the True Light, I ask you, in return, to strengthen the Cause by the triumph of which that True Light, made still brighter and more glorious through your individual and collective efforts, will lighten the World, and thus to let me see, before I part with this worn-out body, the stability of the Society secured." 5 Mess p. 31 (1891) ------------------------------- DTB: I find these statements, taken as a whole reconcile any differences. There is no "campaign against anyone. There is a strong campaign FOR the study and deeper more ready knowledge of what H P B and Mahatmas have taught. If we insist on reading and studying other writers, how can we be sure that they accurately represent the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS - if we have to also studied those?=20 Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20 -----Original Message----- From: prmoliv Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 2:22 PM To:=20 Subject: Re: Pedro again on "ORIGINAL TEACHINGS" > But as far as I can tell, you have chosen to > ignore the serious issues to be found in what both > Madame Blavatsky and the Mahatma Koot Hoomi > wrote about: >=20 > "wild and fanciful speculation" about Theosophy >=20 > "erroneous notions" about Theosophy >=20 > "garbled and distorted versions" of Theosophy >=20 > "false ideas" grafted onto Theosophy >=20 > "disfigured" expositions of Theosophy >=20 > "imitations of Occultism and Theosophy" >=20 An independent observer might see that your attitude to Theosophy and=20 its 'original teachings' is becoming increasingly theological,=20 sectarian and crystallized. It seems to replicate, for example, the=20 Church's attitude to the different Gnostics groups in the early=20 Christian era by establishing a definitive and granite-like Theology=20 that must be accepted as the only true and real benchmark of the=20 Christian tradition. In one of her letters to the American Conventions (April 1888),=20 Madame Blavatsky wrote: "Orthodoxy in Theosophy is a thing neither possible nor desirable. It=20 is diversity of opinion, within certain limits, that keeps the=20 Theosophical Society a living and a healthy body, its many other ugly=20 features notwithstanding. Were it not, also, for the existence of a=20 large amount of uncertainty in the minds of students of Theosophy,=20 such healthy divergencies would be impossible, and the Society would=20 degenerate into a sect, in which a narrow and stereotyped creed would=20 take the place of the living and breathing spirit of Truth and an=20 ever growing Knowledge." CUT =20 From dalval14@e... Wed Sep 01 05:05:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@e... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59777 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 12:05:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 12:05:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 12:04:57 -0000 Received: from pool0031.cvx37-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.24.31] helo=DALLAS) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1C2Tqf-0004CQ-00; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 05:04:22 -0700 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:04:16 -0700 Message-ID: <000b01c4901b$cfce0a40$1f18f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <000901c48f62$4c612b60$4c4fa450@khidr> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.48 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World ORIGINAL TEACHINGS X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Aug 31 2004 Dear Friend: Mind is indeed a problem.=20=20 We are a mind.=20=20 We also as a spiritual being can guide our "mind."=20=20 To the Spiritual Man the Mind is only a tool.=20 THEOSOPHY splits Mind into two distinct portions: 1 The Lower Mind (usually allied and involved in fancy, passions, desires, emotions (called Kama) and very selfish) It is said to be that aspect of "mind" that is involved in the daily affairs of the Personality. It is very much attached to our emotions and desires. It lures us away to selfish and isolationist considerations. It is considered, when unchecked, to be dangerous to man's well being, as the end-result of its conclusions are often self-destructive and not completely thought out as to potential results. 2 The Higher Mind (this is said to be firmly allied t the Spirit of Man -- Atma-Buddhi - or embodied WISDOM -- this is also viewed as the "God" resident in each human being). The qualities of this mind are philosophy, wisdom and altruism. It always has universal and impersonal views, concept= s and ideas, and is forever idealistic. These it keeps in view. It looks on our personality and our Lower Mind as a child that is struggling to mature. It knows Karma works everywhere, and tries to advise the Lower Mind to make choices that will benefit it in the long run. This Higher Mind is the bein= g that meditates. Buddhi means" Universal Wisdom." It is also the basis for consistent morality and ethical practices. Man is viewed as an immortal pilgrim and everyone else is also the same.=20 Let me offer some quotations that might help. Dallas ----------------------------------- =20 =20 Our main problem is knowing which "self" is thinking and talking. Let me see if I can le the original text do the explaining: =20=20 The VOICE OF THE SILENCE says "The Self of Matter and the SELF of SPIRIT can never meet. One of the twain must disappear. There is no place for both." Voice, p. 13 =20=20 "Feel thyself abiding in all things, all things in SELF." P. 54 =20=20 Apparently there is the ALL SELF (ATMAN). =20 Then, there is =20 1 The Lower (brain-)mind (Kama-Manas), and =20 2 The Higher (Wise) Mind (Buddhi-Manas). =20 The thread of "antaskarana" unites these two and the communications see to be frequent depending on the desire of the Lower Mind to become pure in motive and follow docilely the behests of the Buddhi-Manas. =20 Look again at the "Voice" p. 27. =20 "Saith the pupil: =20 O Teacher, what shall I do to reach to Wisdom? =20 O Wise one, what, to gain perfection? =20 Search for the Paths. But, O Lanoo, be of clean heart before thou startest on thy journey. Before thou takest thy first step learn to discern the real from the false, the ever-fleeting from the everlasting. Learn above all to separate Head-learning from Soul-Wisdom, the "Eye" from the "Heart" doctrine.. =20 The seeds of Wisdom cannot sprout and grow in airless space. To live and reap experience the mind needs breadth and depth and points to draw it towards the Diamond Soul.=20 =20 (1) Seek not those points in Maya's realm; but soar beyond illusions, searc= h the eternal and the changeless SAT,=20 =20 (2) mistrusting fancy's false suggestions. =20 For mind is like a mirror; it gathers dust while it reflects.=20 =20 (3) It needs the gentle breezes of Soul-Wisdom to brush away the dust of our illusions. Seek, O Beginner, to blend thy Mind and Soul. =20 Shun ignorance, and likewise shun illusion. Avert thy face from world deceptions; mistrust thy senses, they are false. But within thy body - the shrine of thy sensations-seek in the Impersonal for the "eternal man" (1); and having sought him out, look inward: thou art Buddha. (2) =20 Shun praise, O Devotee. Praise leads to self-delusion. Thy body is not self= , thy SELF is in itself without a body, and either praise or blame affects it not.. =20 False learning is rejected by the Wise, and scattered to the Winds by the good Law. Its wheel revolves for all, the humble and the proud. The "Doctrine of the Eye" (3) is for the crowd, the "Doctrine of the Heart," fo= r the elect. The first repeat in pride: "Behold, I know," the last, they who in humbleness have garnered, low confess, "thus have I heard". (1) =20 "Great Sifter" is the name of the "Heart Doctrine," O disciple.=20 =20 The wheel of the good Law moves swiftly on. It grinds by night and day. The worthless husks it drives from out the golden grain, the refuse from the flour. The hand of Karma guides the wheel; the revolutions mark the beating= s of the Karmic heart.=20 =20 True knowledge is the flour, false learning is the husk. If thou would'st eat the bread of Wisdom, thy flour thou hast to knead with Amrita's (2) clear waters. But if thou kneadest husks with Maya's dew, thou canst create but food for the black doves of death, the birds of birth, decay and sorrow..=20 =20 If thou art taught that sin is born of action and bliss of absolute inaction, then tell them that they err. Non-permanence of human action; deliverance of mind from thraldom by the cessation of sin and faults, are not for "Deva Egos." (3) Thus saith the "Doctrine of the Heart."=20 =20 The Dharma of the "Eye" is the embodiment of the external, and the non-existing.=20 =20 The Dharma of the "Heart" is the embodiment of Bodhi, (4) the Permanent and Everlasting." Voice 27-31. =20 An important point that is made here is (to me): the MORAL EVOLUTION of man's mind is crucial. The fact that Karma always attaches itself to choice, and we, as immortals, implies we always receive exactly what we generate in terms of "good" and "evil."=20=20 =20 The old song: "there's no hiding place down there," mirrors this concept. So we might as well be brotherly and do good always - or we eventually pay for error and selfishness in pain and sorrow. No "escape." No "pardon." No "forgiveness." No "secret" place where "God [Just Karma] will not discover our hidden vices, and demand payment and restitution to our victims. =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Morten=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 6:56 AM To:=20 Subject: Re: ORIGINAL TEACHINGS Hallo Dallas and all, My views are: I think if one reads Blavatsky texts carefully, one will find, that she use= s the word "mind" as covering all levels of knowledge, but also the word "mind" as if it is belonging only to the lower Manas or even to Manas a such. To try to make this more clear I write the following - thoughts: What I have learnt is, that the ability to mentally visualize something which is not perceived by the senses at the same time, that this is the check point charlie so to speak between higher and lower manas. The Soul contact sort of takes place. But it is only a wague contact. Others are saying it is formless thinking, which is the check point. When one has learned the ability to think and even ponder on more than one object and issue at the same time, which are not perceived by the senses at the time of doing it. Then we are talking about the higher manas are at work. (For instance one can ponder or meditate on the sexless compassionate God within ones partner, while calculating the taxes which are due. God is ofte= n perceived as a bright "Light" by the beginners.) These levels of thinking are - when going upwards - slowly becoming a kind of thinking, which are - formless in nature. One could call it abstract formless thinking, almost like an advanced biocomputer with build-in compassion. Well only almost. And as far as I understand it, the level of Buddhi in each Seeker has many different sublevels and even areas. Some Seekers uses the higher Manas a lot with almost no Buddhi and others has a lot of Buddhi and very little Manas capability. And there are a lot of variations in between. Buddhi is difficult to describe since we are talking about a level of consciousness, which normally enables the Seeker to perceive the world usin= g extra sensory perception. The one who tastes know goes the saying. This level also contains knowledge or rather wisdom about reincarnation cycles, precognitive vision and other issues, which the beginner aught not yet to try use his or her precious time with. So far my knowledge. I might be in error, but then let me know. All suffering is due to justice and all in accordance with God's cosmological law. CUT From amt@m... Wed Sep 01 05:05:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: amt@m... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65676 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 12:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 12:05:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO megavia) (80.35.145.231) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 12:05:26 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by megavia (ArGoSoft Mail Server, Version 1.8 (1.8.1.2)); Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:10:43 +0200 Message-ID: <00fe01c4901c$b4833c00$04001aac@megavia> To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:10:42 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 80.35.145.231 From: "ana maria torra" Reply-To: "ana maria torra" Subject: To Fred Davis X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=87794653 X-Yahoo-Profile: anamariatorra Sorry to the list, but I have no other way to contact Fred Davis than here. All my mails to him have bounced back and I don't know what the problem is. Thanks for your intererst, anyway, ana maria From dalval14@e... Wed Sep 01 05:06:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@e... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 50342 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 12:06:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 12:06:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 12:06:29 -0000 Received: from pool0031.cvx37-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.24.31] helo=DALLAS) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1C2Tqn-0004CQ-00; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 05:04:30 -0700 To: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:04:16 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c4901b$d454cae0$1f18f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <002101c48fb2$35644190$4c4fa450@khidr> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.48 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: Re: Pedro again on "ORIGINAL TEACHINGS" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Sept 1 2004 Dear M and Friends: As far as I can see: No reading or study is forbidden in THEOSOPHY -- but if in the experience o= f a student something ought to receive a caution, then it is given on that basis -- as a friendly warning. No prohibitions are needed. Karma takes care of all decisions anyone makes.=20 As to teachers. At present there are only student/teachers. We all study, and as inquiries arise, they pass along the information they have obtained by study from the "original Teachings of THEOSOPHY," or other sources. Everything has to be independently considered by the readers and questioners. It is the basic principles that need to be known and applied. (see below)=20 I find that the knowledge of those "original Teachings" is slowly increasing. That is a good sign for the continuity of THEOSOPHY=20 There are no "leaders or teachers" who can give definitive answers to problems. There are fellow students that can respond with leads for the enquirer to use for his further study.=20 But having studied the writings of the Teachers (HPB and the Masters) of this time and era, some writers can provide references, quotations and basi= c concepts which enable enquirers to work out their own solutions.=20 The questions asked below, have to be answered by each student independently -- their own common sense and sense of logic assist. There is no "dead letter" or "literalism," and no "authorities" other than ourselves, as we compare what we study with what we know.=20 The "Original teachings of THEOSOPHY" have to be treated as "guides." Best wishes, Dallas ---------------------------------- Some basics: =20 3 FUNDAMENTALS 1 SPACE is everywhere, and cannot be measured. It is the UNIVERSE. 2. LAW is everywhere. It is always honest, true, fair, universal and impersonal. It has many aspects and all are framed so as to support lif= e everywhere.=20 3. The EVOLUTION of all creatures and beings (including Mankind) starts from the same single Spiritual Basis. It makes them all "brothers" i= n fact, though their forms and beliefs may differ. Each follows his or her ow= n self-made path. In the end there is a Goal: it has been called SUPREME PERFECTION -- also, ALL KNOWINGNESS (or WISDOM).=20 Even the material of all forms ( atoms, molecules, cells, etc. ) are immortals and come from the same one SOURCE: SPIRIT. =20 4 MAJOR BASIC IDEAS: =20 HERMES taught: "A stone becomes a plant. A plant becomes an animal, An animal becomes a Man ( a THINKER), and, a Thinker becomes a GOD. Never is anything made less or lowered again." [The word "God" used here means a Thinker who can understand everything in the Universe - a Prophet or a Wise Man - is a "Son of 'God.'" Basically we ae all sons and daughters of God -- the ONE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT -- ATMAN. All progress is forward and upward and eventually we learn and know everything. =20 1. REINCARNATION is the process by which all beings advance. The forms constantly change. The Spirit that is within and behind the forms we wear, and creates them, it NEVER DIES. We do NOT "die." 2. Sleep is death. Death is sleep. The CONSCIOUSNESS of each individual always survives. The fear of "death" is abolished. 3. The Law Of Spiritual Development is through BROTHERHOOD. It is mutual help and is always cooperative. It views Humanity and all beings as a single family. Wisdom is the ability to understand law operating everywhere in a moral and altruistic fashion 4. MAN'S (a Thinker) DUTY is to help all others. =20 Added all together, these are 7 of the principal points of Theosophical and universal science, and in all true philosophies. Think about them. Try to see if they are true. Ask all the questions you want. If you wish to study Theosophical propositions in greater detail, I suggest you start with a simple text book like The KEY TO THEOSOPHY (by H P B) (an Introduction to Theosophical doctrines and the ethics of Theosophy to be applied - 300 pages), or Mr. Judge's The OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY, ( a summary of The SECRET DOCTRINE -- which is a book that covers the history of Cosmic evolution an= d that of our Earth and humanity - as a host of spiritual beings all working and living together for millions of years - 180 pages). These are available for downloading from http://www.blavatsky.net and http://www.ult-la.org . =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Morten=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 4:28 PM To:=20 Subject: Re: Pedro on "ORIGINAL TEACHINGS" Hallo all, My views are: May I drop a few words...? The following always comes to my mind, when someone almost says, that one shouldn't read certain books. The Key to theosophy, section 2: "We cull the good we find in each". I.e. each teaching system or thought system. A vital issue is the present day teachers within the various theosophical groups. The only thing I will say is: You shall know them on their fruits. Do they support theosophical teaching or do they just say, that they do so? Do they enhance the teaching or is it just old business as usual teaching? Do they promote a main teaching which is misleading - theosophically speaking? Is their teaching something you just as well could have read in a book yourselves? Do they teach each person in a group individually? If not what are the concequences of this? ------- Let us remember, that the theosophical teachings always adapts themselves t= o time, place, people and circumstances. It is not the dead-letter of the teacher which are important, but the fruit= s the teacher creates by the teaching. The seekers suffers often from problems related to egotism. This the teachers has to relate to. CUT From Normandebrus@a... Wed Sep 01 05:41:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Normandebrus@a... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16574 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 12:41:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 12:41:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m27.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.8) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 12:41:53 -0000 Received: from Normandebrus@a... by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.4.) id r.c.323c1ded (4238) for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 08:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 08:41:02 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5113 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.8 From: Normandebrus@a... Subject: A Commentary on Socio-Cultural Programming and Todays Planetary Situation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=194877267 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this too far off topic? >From my blog: A Commentary on Socio-Cultural Programming and Todays Planetary Situation http://imagicke.blogspot.com/2004/08/commentary-on-socio-cultural.html#comment s * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@e... Wed Sep 01 06:00:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@e... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35263 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 13:00:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 13:00:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 13:00:49 -0000 Received: from pool0031.cvx37-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.24.31] helo=DALLAS) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1C2Uj7-00060Y-00; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 06:00:39 -0700 To: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:00:32 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c49023$ac7a0730$1f18f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: <000b01c48fa8$893a8d10$935e45cf@yourat5qgaac3z> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.48 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: [theosophia] Re: posts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sep 1 2004 Dear Bill: You are not misunderstood. Some are convinced (by their own study that THEOSOPHY is what HPB and the Masters have published (as per ORIGINAL) -- NO "editing" please. [Of course in antiquity THEOSOPHY had other names. But the thread is there and can be grasped - BHAGAVAD GITA, Dhammapada, Patanjali, Sermon on the Mount, etc..] Everyone is free to entertain, study, probe, question. Discover if true or false, etc. that makes for vital study between interested students - the life of the T M is there. However don't waive "authorities" say-so's around. They are opinions and stand only on their own logic and merit. As my study has extended over 60 or more years, I would say that THEOSOPHY is monolithic. But why take my word for it? Invulnerable is also a good word. [Some writings that claim to be theosophical don't stand comparison, probing or verification.] Each has to study and verify. In the meantime, how many of the basics and fundamentals are reasonable? Are they well identified? How do they interlink? Do the provide food for thought? Do they offer ideas that can be used in daily practical life? In other words do the Ideals of THEOSOPHY have value? Can that be proved or identified or targeted ? Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 3:19 PM To: theosophia@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [theosophia] Re: posts Hi Richard. Yes I agree with the spirit of your comments below. I also fear that an ultimate veneration for HPB may cause us to develop tunnel vision regarding theosophy i.e. if HPB didn't say it then it's not really theosophy. Some folks like to split the theosophical hair, so to speak, by referring to "original" theosophy as that of HPB and "neo" or "pseudo" theosophy as almost all else. Others like to capitalize the "T" in theosophy to mean the "true" HPB version and to leave the "t" small when generalizing about theosophy. Now, before Dallas and others get the wrong impression, let me say that I have no quarrel with HPB or the masters. Each of us is challenged by HPB to write our own secret doctrine. It is our very own wondering, seeking, asking, testing, verifying, sharing and questioning that is at the heart of theosophy. It is a way of life much more so than it is a set of books. As such theosophy was around for "thousands of generations" before HPB wrote down her understanding of it. If we demand that our theosophy use a narrow set of terms and a particular language then through such divisiveness we may be missing the living theosophy that permeates the each and all. Personally, I look forward to the discussions on this list. "The intuition of the moral sentiment is an insight of the perfection of the laws of the soul. These laws execute themselves. They are out of time, out of space, and not subject to circumstance. Thus, in the soul of man there is a justice whose retributions are instant and entire. ... A man in the view of absolute goodness, adores, with total humility. Every step so downward, is a step upward. The man who renounces himself, comes to himself by so doing." Ralph Waldo Emerson - The Divinity School Address regards, Bill CUT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@e... Wed Sep 01 06:01:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@e... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 36025 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 13:01:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 13:01:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 13:01:07 -0000 Received: from pool0031.cvx37-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.24.31] helo=DALLAS) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1C2UjL-00060Y-00; Wed, 01 Sep 2004 06:00:52 -0700 To: "AA-BNStudy" Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 06:00:32 -0700 Message-ID: <001501c49023$b47a1010$1f18f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 In-Reply-To: X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.48 From: "W.Dallas TenBroeck" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Favor or Disfavor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Sept 1 2004 Re Theosophical Texts Agreed: Let there be peace. [See important quotes below from HPB] Students will study as the please in any case. The history of the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT is available through documents for those who desire to learn of it. [The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875-1950) [$ 7.50] Cunningham Press, Los Angeles . Emphasis is that the "Original Teachings" of HPB and the Masters are NOT TH= E SAME as what later writers have provided -- in some cases the contradiction= s are very large.=20=20 [see Margaret Thomas: THEOSOPHY or NEO-THEOSOPHY.]=20 If one wants to know THEOSOPHY then better go to the ORIGINALS.=20 [I mean the Original Editions, as reprints have in some cases been "edited."] Study HPB. [NO ABRIDGMENTS, Originals only.] This will clear away confusion. OK ? Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Erica=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 4:33 AM To:=20 Subject: Re: Favor or Disfavor Hi, It is a favor or disfavor for theosophical cause, when the name of=20 some theosophists is constantly connected to heavy accusations? How=20 precious time is lost in discussions about the personality and life=20 of some known T.S. fellows?=20 Is this a service for the cause?=20 Or a critical way of thinking based on prejudices and a kind of personal=20 satisfaction to discuss about the weakness of others?=20 Below I am sending some quotes of Blavatsky for reflection. Erica=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------- "Neither unpopular characters nor their work are judged in our day=20 on their intrinsic value, but merely on their author's personality=20 and the prejudiced opinion thereon of the masses. In many journals=20 no literary work of a Theosophist can ever hope to be reviewed on=20 its own merits, apart from the gossip about its author. Such papers,=20 oblivious of the rule first laid down by Aristotle, who says that=20 criticism is "a standard of judging well," refuse point blank to=20 accept any Theosophical book apart from its writer. As a first=20 result, the former is judged by the distorted reflection of the=20 latter created by slander repeated in the daily papers. The=20 personality of the writer hangs like a dark shadow between the=20 opinion of the modern journalist and unvarnished truth; and as a=20 final result there are few editors in all Europe and America who=20 know anything of our Society's tenets."=20 H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES=20 Lucifer, Vol. V, No. 26,=20 October, 1889, pp. 85-91 -------------------------------------------------------------------- "but whenever the word "Theosophy" is printed and catches the=20 reader's eye, there it will be generally found preceded and followed=20 by abusive epithets and invective against the personalities of=20 certain Theosophists." H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES Lucifer,=20 Vol. V, No. 26,=20 October, 1889, pp. 85-91 --------------------------------------------------------------------- "How long, O radiant gods of truth, how long shall this terrible=20 mental cecity of the nineteenth century Philosophists last? How much=20 longer are they to be told that Theosophy is no national property,=20 no religion, but only the universal code of science and the most=20 transcendental ethics that was ever known; that it lies at the root=20 of every moral philosophy and religion; and that neither Theosophy=20 per se, nor yet its humble unworthy vehicle, the Theosophical=20 Society, has anything whatever to do with any personality or=20 personalities!"=20 H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES=20 Lucifer, Vol. V, No. 26,=20 October, 1889, pp. 85-91 --------------------------------------------------------------------- "To identify it with these is to show oneself sadly defective in=20 logic and even common sense. To reject the teaching and its=20 philosophy under the pretext that its leaders, or rather one of its=20 Founders, lies under various accusations (so far unproven) is silly,=20 illogical and absurd. It is, in truth, as ridiculous as it would=20 have been in the days of the Alexandrian school of Neo-Platonism,=20 which was in its essence Theosophy, to reject its teachings, because=20 it came to Plato from Socrates, and because the sage of Athens,=20 besides his pug-nose and bald head, was accused of "blasphemy and of=20 corrupting the youth." H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES Lucifer, Vol. V, No. 26,=20 October, 1889, pp. 85-91 --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Aye, kind and generous critics, who call yourselves Christians, and=20 boast of the civilization and progress of your age; you have only to=20 be scratched skin deep to find in you the same cruel and=20 prejudiced "barbarian" as of old." H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES=20 Lucifer, Vol. V, No. 26,=20 October, 1889, pp. 85-91 --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Were an opportunity offered you to sit in public and legal judgment=20 on a Theosophist, who of you would rise in your nineteenth century=20 of Christianity higher than one of the Athenian dikastery with its=20 50 jurors who condemned Socrates to death? Which of you would scorn=20 to become a Meletus or an Anytus, and have Theosophy and all its=20 adherents condemned on the evidence of false witnesses to a like=20 ignominious death? The hatred manifested in your daily attacks upon=20 the Theosophists is a warrant to us for this. Did Haywood have you=20 in her mind's eye when she wrote of Society's censure: But man, as if a foe to his own species, Takes pleasure to report his neighbour's faults, Judging with rigour every small offence, And prides himself in scandal . . ." *=20=20 * [This passage is from a tragedy by Eliza Haywood (1693?-1756)" H.P.B. PHILOSOPHERS AND PHILOSOPHICULES=20 Lucifer, Vol. V, No. 26,=20 October, 1889, pp. 85-91 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From perrycoles@y... Wed Sep 01 06:41:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@y... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22462 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 13:41:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 13:41:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 13:41:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2004 13:41:03 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:41:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 20013 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.88 From: "Perry Coles" X-Originating-IP: 203.59.214.107 Subject: Re: Working with controversy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069 X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Hello Anton, and all I agree with you and I do think that most people in this group would agree that diversity is the key to a truer understanding of theosophical teachings. The Ancient wisdom can be seen in the Upanishads, the Vedas, Kabbalah, Taoism, mystics of all traditions, and none, and all of these are worthy of study and comparison with those of the Mahatmas Esoteric Cis and Trans Himalayian Budhist tradition that HPB presented to the modern world for the first time. However when some people say that everything is theosophy I think this is easily proven incorrect. The well known quote is "while Theosophy is everything not everything is theosophy." For example the Hindu's and exoteric Buddhists believe and teach that a human can return in an animal form. The Mahatma's tradition refutes this idea. Can we then say that this teaching of humans returning in an animal form is theosophical? Likewise the Christians believe in the vicarious atonement of Jesus on the cross. This is also not a theosophical teaching. On what authority can this statement be made? Theosophy teaches something completely different. This does not mean the theosophical teachings are right however. They may not be, therefore these teachings should NEVER be presented as a truth that must be believed, infact we should never blindly `believe' these teachings but rather by the use of an ongoing process of investigation and experience the truth of it may or may not be revealed. It might be wrong, it might be right. Many people find this difficult to discern for some reason. Perhaps we are to used to guru's and teachers who demand belief. The opposite is true of the Mahatma's. They do not seek follows but encourage independent thought. The teachings the Mahatmas themselves could only verify for themselves through their own processes and hard work. CWL and his advocates clearly and demonstrably changed many of the teachings thus blurring what was originally presented by the Mahatma's tradition, that the TS is supposed to be the responsible custodian of. So if a student feels it is their responsibility to present these differences to the membership (not in order to make dogmatic statements) but simply to clarify the differences to the membership at large through the societies publications they should be given opportunities to do this. This is simple reason and logic and expression of facts, nothing to difficult, unless the societies leadership does not want this information presented and is suppressing from being printed in their publications. What possible excuse can the society give for not allowing the critics of CWL to present there case, of course there is NONE from a truly theosophical perspective. However politics rule the roost or so it seems and genuine freedom must take the back seat and drum its fingers patiently waiting to get a word in. To me Pedro's reasoning reflects a certain mindset in the Adyar TS that has a serious blind spot and I can see absolutely no rational justification for it. To on the one hand be calling for freedom and wanting to call anything theosophy it then seems to want's to stifle any voice of desention to the standard CWL et.al. pronouncements. Strange double standard. Would the TS allow born again Christians in the door and present that as being theosophy? How can the TS actually say it has no core teachings?! and keep a straight face. And of course THEOSOPHY with the capital "T" is `beyond the range and reach of thought'. Does that mean we dont comparatively study the Bible the Koran, the Upanishads and the Zohar? Of course not, but we need to make a distinction between the teachings the Mahatmas and HPB presented and those of the latter day presenters made and those of the different exoteric traditions and let people make their own mind up and go through there own process of discovery. If that makes me a dogmatist then so be it. Perry PS Pedro, sorry to mention you in the 3rd person but I thought you may read this and it is related to your postings. Just as a throught perhaps we could say the Leadbeaterian tradition to make it distinct from theosophy to save confussion to members. I say suggest this sincerly --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Rozman" wrote: >=20 >=20 > Hi Perry and all, >=20 > figuratively speaking I imagine theosophy as a table well loaded=20 > with spiritual food and that our role in front of it is double:=20 > first, to invite other people to this table saying: "serve=20 > yourselves", and second, to explore by ourselves what can we find > on=20 > that table according to our preference. >=20 > Fact is that on that table we can find all possible food,=20 > contribution of various authors of theosophical provenience:=20 > teachings, stories, documents, opinions, etc. >=20 > Now, the trouble is that we often mix these two roles. Instead of=20 > exploring by ourselves what should be the right food for us=20 > personally to actually transform ourselves we spent all our time=20 > inviting people saying: "this should be the right food for > you." >=20 > If we were really interested in inviting people to the table and in=20 > what should be the right food for specific individual or group of=20 > people we would ground our proposition on their specific needs, on=20 > our first-hand experience and not on our convictions what should be=20 > the right food for them, made possibly only by observing it. >=20 > When we have a relationship between theosophist and an aspirant=20 > there usually are no problems involved, for if the aspirant finds=20 > his advice reasonable, if he finds him a person of integrity, he=20 > will accept his advice. If not, he will abandon him and find another=20 > theosophist. >=20 > Real problem arise when a group of people, an organization, decides=20 > that they should help people to choose the right food. Then this=20 > becomes a serious problem. People begin to argue according to their=20 > convictions or possible experience what should be the right food and=20 > forget the very person or people to whom they wanted to offer it. >=20 > So, to solve the problem people need some agreement how to achieve=20 > their goal, they need some method (in the real sense of the world -=20 > treading the path) to find common solution of the problem, a new=20 > insight, for life is changing perpetually and the food it was=20 > possibly adequate yesterday today probably isn't any more. >=20 > And the preliminary condition for that path and a possible new=20 > insight is freedom. What is freedom? Rohit Mehta explains it in this=20 > way (I do not have the source text any more, so I am translating=20 > back to English, therefore the text will be deficient): >=20 > "This is obviously a state in which mind is not on a rein of any=20 > thing. If the mind has established its own interest then it is=20 > doomed to the sphere of this interest. Interest, either financial or=20 > psychological, is always established because of safety. When mind=20 > establishes the psychological interest it is with the purpose to=20 > protect its own sphere of pleasure and continuity. Mind which=20 > searches safety remains alien to freedom; it has to accept=20 > compulsions of its own interest. Such a mind can not comprehend the=20 > joy of creative life." (The Search for Freedom, TPH 1957) >=20 > Kind regards, > Anton >=20 >=20 >=20 > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles" =20 > wrote: > > Hello Anton and all, > > Thanks for your comments and review. > > I concur with you that the TS or any other group can gain greatly=20 > in > > embracing some of these 'technologies' that help facilitate group > > cohesion and growth and can work with difficult situations seeing=20 > them > > as opportunities rather than things to avoid.=20 > > Aversion and desire are just 2 sides of the same coin.. > >=20 > > We generally seek comfort and try to avoid pain at all costs,=20 > however > > the things we find difficult to face are generally the things we=20 > most > > need to examine and understand . > > Otherwise we become like the Ostrich with its head in the sand. > >=20 > > The TS leadership by seemingly avoiding and ignoring these issues=20 > and > > through apparently not supporting the critics of neo-theosophy in > > presenting their challenges in the official publications of the TS=20 > (as > > HPB recommended) are in this case not only going against the=20 > principal > > of freedom of inquiry but also missing a great opportunity to allow > > the society to evolve as a group. > > Excluding genuinely researched critisim is dangerous. > >=20 > > I have seen no evidence of inclusive pro-active encouragement of > > critical analysis of these teachings of CWL and AB. > > WHY? > >=20 > > For some unspoken reason these writers seem to be off limits, and=20 > the > > silence on this is deafening. > >=20 > > How can the society expect to be taken seriously by free thinkers=20 > and > > students interested in Socratic methods of debate when this is > > glaringly apparent. > >=20 > > The processes of group dynamics require open and free challenging=20 > and > > exchange of ideas. > >=20 > > Without that the process will not work, instead it will stagnate=20 > in a > > glamor of denial. > > So here in lies the problem as I see it. > >=20 > > A problem has to be acknowledged before any process can start to be > > worked with. > > I really hope the leadership of the society considers these=20 > challenges > > in the spirit they are given which is out of a genuine wish to=20 > promote > > the cause of freedom. > > An Occult society should be acutely sensitive to this and aware of=20 > its > > effect in Universal Mind.=20 > >=20 > > Regards > >=20 > > Perry > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Rozman"=20 > > > wrote: > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Hi Perry, > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > I found your initiative very interesting and tried to somehow=20 > > > elaborate it further for theosophical purposes using abridged=20 > quotes=20 > > > from your and some other sources. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Though we can't deny the presence of conflicts (in and between > > > the=20 > > > theosophical organizations) which your source defines as > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > Quote from: http://www.co-operation.org/pages/conflict. > > >=20 > > > Conflict exists whenever incompatible activities occur. An=20 > activity=20 > > > that is incompatible with another is one that prevents, blocks,=20 > or=20 > > > interferes with the occurrence or effectiveness of the second=20 > > > activity. > > >=20 > > > A controversy occurs when one person's ideas, information,=20 > > > conclusions, theories, and opinions are incompatible with those=20 > of=20 > > > another and the two seek to reach an agreement. > > >=20 > > > A person experiences conceptual conflict when incompatible ideas=20 > > > exist simultaneously in his or her mind or when information=20 > being=20 > > > received does not seem to fit with what one already knows. An=20 > > > individual experiences conceptual conflict when engaged in=20 > > > controversy as ideas and arguments are presented that are=20 > > > incongruent with one's original position.=20 > > >=20 > > > Interpersonal conflict occurs when the actions of one person=20 > > > attempting to maximize his or her goals prevent, block, or=20 > interfere=20 > > > with another person attempting to maximize personal goals. > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > and that the results of constructively managed conflicts include, > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > Ibid. > > >=20 > > > - greater quantity and quality of achievement, complex=20 > reasoning,=20 > > > and creative problem solving;=20 > > > - higher quality decision making;=20 > > > - healthier cognitive, social, and psychological development by=20 > > > being better able to deal with stress and cope with unforeseen=20 > > > adversities;=20 > > > - increased motivation and energy to take action; higher quality=20 > > > relationships with friends, co-workers, and family members;=20 > > > - a greater sense of caring, commitment, joint identity, and=20 > > > cohesiveness with an emphasis on increased liking, respect, and=20 > > > trust;=20 > > > - heightened awareness that a problem exists that needs to be=20 > > > solved; and=20 > > > - increased incentive to change. > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > I believe that we need different approach, for I suppose that=20 > the=20 > > > following necessary recognition > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > Ibid. > > >=20 > > > The constructive resolution of conflict in an ongoing=20 > relationship=20 > > > requires disputants to recognize that their long-term=20 > relationship=20 > > > is more important than the result of any short-term conflict. In=20 > > > order for long-term mutual interest to be recognized and valued,=20 > > > individuals have to perceive their interdependence and be=20 > invested=20 > > > in each other's well-being. > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > among theosophists already exists and because > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > Ibid. > > >=20 > > > When mediation fails, the teacher or administrator arbitrates=20 > the=20 > > > conflict. > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > we have not such authority. Therefore I am more inclined to=20 > propose=20 > > > the approach of co-operative learning which is > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > Quote from:=20 > http://www.ed.gov/pubs/OR/ConsumerGuides/cooplear.html > > >=20 > > > =85 a successful teaching strategy in which small teams, each > with=20 > > > students of different levels of ability, use a variety of=20 > learning=20 > > > activities to improve their understanding of a subject. Each=20 > member=20 > > > of a team is responsible not only for learning what is taught=20 > but=20 > > > also for helping teammates learn, thus creating an atmosphere of=20 > > > achievement. > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > with following methods > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > Ibid. > > >=20 > > > Group Investigations are structured to emphasize higher-order=20 > > > thinking skills such as analysis and evaluation. Students work=20 > to=20 > > > produce a group project, which they may have a hand in=20 > selecting.=20 > > >=20 > > > Student Teams-Achievement Divisions is used =85 to study what > has > > > been=20 > > > initially taught =85 to help each reach his or her highest > level=20 > of=20 > > > achievement. > > >=20 > > > In Jigsaw II =85 each team member is responsible for learning a=20 > > > specific part of a topic. After meeting with members of other=20 > > > groups, who are "expert" in the same part, the "experts" return=20 > to=20 > > > their own groups and present their findings. Team members then=20 > are=20 > > > quizzed on all topics. > > >=20 > > > With more detailed overview on pages: > > >=20 > > > http://www.co-operation.org/pages/overviewpaper.html > > >=20 > > > Cooperative Learning, Values, and Culturally Plural Classrooms > > > http://www.co-operation.org/pages/CLandD.html > > >=20 > > > Co-operative learning > > > http://edtech.kennesaw.edu/intech/cooperativelearning.htm > > >=20 > > > ACTIVE AND COOPERATIVE LEARNING > > > http://www.ncsu.edu/felder-public/Cooperative_Learning.html > > >=20 > > > The Co-operative Learning Network > > > http://www.sheridanc.on.ca/coop_learn/cooplrn.htm > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > and the collaborative learning which in the following source is=20 > > > defined as > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > Quote from:=20 > > >=20 > http://www.city.londonmet.ac.uk/deliberations/collab.learning/panitz2 > > > .html > > >=20 > > > =85 a personal philosophy, not just a classroom technique. In > all=20 > > > situations where people come together in groups, it suggests a=20 > way=20 > > > of dealing with people which respects and highlights individual=20 > > > group members' abilities and contributions. There is a sharing=20 > of=20 > > > authority and acceptance of responsibility among group members=20 > for=20 > > > the group actions. The underlying premise of collaborative=20 > learning=20 > > > is based upon consensus building through cooperation by group=20 > > > members, in contrast to competition in which individuals best=20 > other=20 > > > group members. CL practitioners apply this philosophy in the=20 > > > classroom, at committee meetings, with community groups, within=20 > > > their families and generally as a way of living with and dealing=20 > > > with other people. > > >=20 > > > With some more sources on pages: > > >=20 > > > THE CONDITIONS FOR EFFECTIVE COLLABORATIVE LEARNING > > > http://tecfa.unige.ch/tecfa/research/CMC/colla/iccai95_14.html > > >=20 > > > Dimensions of Collaborative Learning > > >=20 > http://www.cs.usask.ca/grads/vsk719/academic/890/project2/node4.html > > >=20 > > > Computer-Supported Collaborative Learning: Issues for Research > > >=20 > http://www.cs.usask.ca/grads/vsk719/academic/890/project2/project2.ht > > > ml > > >=20 > > > ONLINE COLLABORATIVE LEARNING > > > http://clp.cqu.edu.au/ > > >=20 > > > And with an example: > > > COLLABORATIVE LEARNING FOR ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT > > > http://www.landcareresearch.co.nz/research/social/ > > >=20 > > > ----- > > >=20 > > > Some ten years ago I had an opportunity to participate in a=20 > working=20 > > > group moderated by Tran Thi Kim Dieu (TS Adyar). Her way of work=20 > in=20 > > > certain degree used methods included in these two mentioned=20 > > > techniques. It was a wonderful experience for all participants,=20 > and=20 > > > for me it represented the answer to the question how to realize=20 > path=20 > > > to new recognitions in a theosophical group work. I think that=20 > > > classical theosophical literature doesn't give us appropriate > > > answer=20 > > > how to successfully organize group work, how to resolve=20 > conflicts=20 > > > rising between theosophical workers. It says how the things=20 > should=20 > > > look like but not how to achieve that. On individual level yes,=20 > on=20 > > > collective level not. If the things would be different there=20 > > > wouldn't be so much disagreements and conflicts in the history=20 > of=20 > > > the theosophical movement. So, I believe that we must adopt in=20 > our=20 > > > work that knowledge and that technology which science is=20 > perpetually=20 > > > producing. Then maybe we will also learn why the knowledge that=20 > > > theosophical workers possess can't express itself more > > > efficiently=20 > > > in daily life. > > >=20 > > > Regards, > > > Anton > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Perry Coles"=20 > =20 > > > wrote: > > > > Perhaps a way the TS can develop as an organisation is by the > > > > implementation of some of the techniques used in `group=20 > dynamics'=20 > > > and > > > > conflict resolution. > > > > This would be a very powerful and pro-active way of=20 > negotiating=20 > > > these > > > > areas. > > > > However group co-operation is required and autocratic systems=20 > > > challenged. > > > > Some very good information and techniques on the following=20 > link,=20 > > > it's > > > > aimed at schools but still the principles apply to any group > > > > interested in inclusion rather than exclusion. > > > >=20 > > > > http://www.co-operation.org/pages/conflict. > > > >=20 > > > > Perry > > > >=20 > > > > "Using Academic Controversy In The Classroom (see Creative > > > > Controversy: Intellectual Challenge In The Classroom, Johnson & > > > > Johnson, 1995c): In order to maximize student achievement and=20 > > > complex > > > > reasoning, students need to engage in intellectual conflicts.=20 > The > > > > procedure for doing so is for members of a cooperative group=20 > to (a) > > > > research and prepare different positions, (b) make a persuasive > > > > presentation of their researched position, (c) refute the=20 > opposing > > > > position while rebutting attacks on their own position, (d)=20 > view=20 > > > the > > > > issue from a variety of perspectives (i.e., reverse=20 > perspectives),=20 > > > and > > > > (e) synthesize/integrate the opposing positions into one=20 > mutually > > > > agreed upon position. Frequently structuring academic=20 > > > controversies in > > > > the classroom allows students to practice their conflict=20 > skills=20 > > > daily." > > > >=20 > > > > Quote taken from above website : > > > > http://www.co-operation.org/pages/conflict.html#teaching From global-theosophy@a... Wed Sep 01 07:00:16 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@a... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33914 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 14:00:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 14:00:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (195.41.46.235) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 14:00:14 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44f4c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.79.76]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B9C6147FE46 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:59:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003701c4902c$8725d1e0$4c4fa450@khidr> To: Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:03:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.41.46.235 From: "Morten N. Olesen" Subject: Nasrudin and the Professor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo all, My views are: "My Beautiful Seed" Mullah Nasrudin gave spiritual instruction to his students in his apartment on Thursday evenings. Among those who came was a professor of comparative religions. The professor was very learned and in every way treated Mullah Nasrudin with great respect. However, every time that the Mullah began to give some history about his teaching, the professor would correct the Mullah filling in minute details and historical facts. Whenever Mullah Nasrudin would begin to tell a Sufi story, after the first line, the professor would begin to laugh and say, 'This is a good one!' After one such class Mullah Nasrudin thought to himself, "Why has this man come to me? He obviously is more knowledgeable about what I am going to say than I am and yet he comes here every week. He is more polite than all of the rest of my students put together and yet his input, interesting as it is, disrupts my teaching. Why has he come and what am I to do with him?" While Mullah Nasrudin was contemplating this situation he was looking out of his window at a flower stand across the street and the thought to himself, "That's it!" Mullah Nasrudin invited the professor to come a little early for the next meeting. When the professor knocked at the door and when Mullah answered it he asked, "Professor, would you mind to do me a favor?" "Not at all." Said the professor. "Then please go across the street for me and buy me some flower seeds and whatever I might need to grow them." Said the Mullah "Certainly!" said the professor and off he went. Soon the professor returned with the flower seeds, a pot and everything needed to grow the flowers as Mullah Nasrudin had requested. Mullah opened the bag of seeds and spread them out on the table, "Ah!" he said, "This is the most beautiful of all my seeds. I would say that this one has the most potential so I am going to treat it in a very special way." He showed the seed to the professor and said, "Isn't it a lovely seed?" "Yes." Agreed the professor. "It is a very nice one." " I have something very special that I want to do with it. Please plant the others in that pot." Said Mullah Nasrudin as he went off to another room. When he came back, the professor had just finished planting the other seeds. And Mullah Nasrudin asked the professor, "Professor, I grew up in a very arid area. There we do not waste our precious water just to grow things for their beauty and their interesting form so I am most inexperienced at growing things such as flowers. Do you suppose that you could stop by for a moment everyday to check on these flower seeds for me and take good care of them?" "Yes, I would be happy to stop by for a moment on my way home from work. But what do you intend to do with that other seed?" asked the professor. Mullah Nasrudin had a book of scriptures in his hand which he placed on the table. When he opened the book there was the seed that he had kept apart from the others. He lovingly stroked the little seed with his fingers saying, "What a beautiful seed." then Mullah Nasrudin walked over to his kitchenette and got a funnel and a flashlight and then returned to the book on the table. He asked the professor to turn on the flashlight and shine its light onto the seed. Then Mullah Nasrudin held the wide end of the funnel to his mouth and the narrow end of the funnel over the seed and began reciting from the scriptures. The professor stood there holding the flashlight with a look of amusement on his face but said nothing. When Mullah Nasrudin had finished he took the flashlight from the professor, thanked him and lead him to the door saying, "I'll see you tomorrow." and the professor left. Day after day, the professor came to water the seeds and to hold the flashlight for the Mullah as he read scriptures into the funnel over the seed. Soon the other seeds in the flower pot were sprouting and growing and before too many weeks some were beginning to flower and all along Mullah Nasrudin put all of his attention on that one seed to which he had been reading and kept in a book of scriptures. Then one day when the professor stopped by, the last of the seeds in the pot had bloomed. Mullah Nasrudin looked at the flowers and then went over to the book where the seed was kept and inspected the seed very closely. He picked up the seed and placed it in the professor's hand. "Look at this seed professor. Nothing seems to have happened. It is still as it was when we began. Surely, this seed is a thousand times more knowledgeable than all of the other seeds put together. I have read all of the words of Life to it, we have shined on it the light of intelligence and still it does not grow. What can have gone wrong?" The professor looked at the seed and then at Mullah Nasrudin and tears started to stream down his face and fell onto the seed. "I am this seed." Said the professor, "All of this has been to open my heart and now, finally, I understand." The professor closed his hand around the seed and wept. Mullah Nasrudin took the professor in his arms, held him and whispered into his ear, "You have just sprouted my beautiful seed." ------- Now we can not say, that Theos-talk or any theosophical group harbours a similar professor, can we? >:-) from M. Sufilight with peace and love... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From perrycoles@y... Wed Sep 01 08:00:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@y... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51803 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2004 14:59:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2004 14:59:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2004 14:59:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.169] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2004 14:59:57 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 14:59:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7385 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.78 From: "Perry Coles" X-Originating-IP: 203.59.85.242 Subject: Re: Favor or Disfavor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069 X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles Hello Erica, I sympathise with your sentiment and agree that we should not drag peoples names though the mud just for the sake of it. We are all mere mortals and I don't think anyone here would claim any sainthood. However the case of CWL raises many issues within the society that have not been properly addressed and I think need to be examined by every serious student. CWL claimed to be a high initiate in contact with HPB's adept teachers. He made many extravagant claims regarding himself and his spiritual status. CWL's influence is still very large in the Adyar society. If he lied on many important facts, isn't it important for us as students who either now or at some time have read his books to know if this information is based in fact. CWL claimed high spiritual status and to be an authority. If CWL molested young boys while claiming to be a high initiate are we not duty bounded to investigate the veracity of these claims rather than simply ignore them? If you haven't already I strongly encourage you to read "The Elder Brother by Dr Gregory Tillett (available though