From raghu_k@alfinance.com Sun Aug 01 02:34:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60885 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 09:34:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 09:34:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alfinance.com) (202.91.64.210) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 09:34:22 -0000 Received: from itrwte01 ([172.16.8.21]) by alfinance.com (alfinance.com [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v7.0.1.R) with ESMTP id md50000392821.msg; Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:03:03 +0530 To: Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:02:04 +0530 Message-ID: <000001c477aa$69827700$150810ac@ALFITR01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Processed: alfinance.com, Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:03:03 +0530 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 172.16.8.21 X-Return-Path: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.91.64.210 From: "Raghu K" Reply-To: Subject: Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=155869969 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cream StationeryHi As a brahmin, I am not supposed to harm anyone - so preaches my religion / Bhagvad Gita. Whenever I feel someone is hurt, I feel guilty. The Buddhists and Jains go a step further - They tie a cloth around their mouth and sweep the floor before they walk so that any insect may be wiped out lest they trample them. But, take the case of a butcher. His business is killing & selling meat. He does not feel guilty of the act. Well, they even say that Jesus had fish with his disciples in his 'last supper'. Prophet Mohamed opined that goats and chickens were produced by God for humans to consume happily and killing them after praying God is not wrong. Some opine that even plants have a life and plucking vegetables will harm / hurt the plants, as much as killing a goat / hen / fish !!! Is it not wrong to harm other souls, humans or otherwise ? If yes, why are religions (Christianity / Islam) not disallowing the same ? In Hinduism, vegetarianism is advocated not only to keep your system healthy (Vegetarian foods are easily digestable & you acquire good traits by being vegetarian, wheras non vegetarian foods kindly rakshas traits in you, so they say), but also to refrain you from harming other souls. Is there any justification in killing these creatures for filling up our stomach and feed the taste buds of our tongue and gullet ? We talk of hundreds of thousands of jews, killed by Hitler and millions of kurds, killed by Saddam Hussain. Who has the nerve to talk about these voiceless creatures ? I feel every atma has a right to live - not just humans ! If someone can kill some atma, in the name of God, he is as much a saddam / Hitler. I feel Religions are conveniently biased towards Humans alone. A sad news is that brahmins in orissa and West Bengal states of India take eggs and fish, saying that they are vegetarian !!! If this norm of vegetarianism cannot be implemented strongly by religions, well, then, all norms of living can be abolished so that people can live a casual life, free of guilt / shame and inferiority complex. As you know, inferiority complex is an epidemic (psychological) that spreads to other persons easily. Atleast people can live with a good self esteem - may be, v will track back to stone age. But then, that's how it is !!! Welcome comments / criticisms. Regards Raghu [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Aug 01 03:24:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64613 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 10:24:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 10:24:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 10:24:27 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.46.54a5fc8f (25508) for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 06:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <46.54a5fc8f.2e3e1ebc@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 06:23:56 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.5 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/1/04 5:07:50 AM Central Daylight Time, raghu_k@alfinance.com writes: << f this norm of vegetarianism cannot be implemented strongly by religions, well, then, all norms of living can be abolished so that people can live a casual life, free of guilt / shame and inferiority complex. >> Sounds like a truly worthwhile goal to me. Meat is tasty but souls taste like wallboard and I rarely eat them. Chuck the Heretic From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Aug 01 08:35:16 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9832 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 15:35:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 15:35:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 15:35:16 -0000 Received: from pool-138-89-148-145.mad.east.verizon.net ([138.89.148.145] helo=sprynet.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BrIMg-00037s-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 01 Aug 2004 08:35:10 -0700 Message-ID: <410D0DB1.4060401@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 11:35:13 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <46.54a5fc8f.2e3e1ebc@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <46.54a5fc8f.2e3e1ebc@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.12 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > Meat is tasty but souls taste like wallboard and I rarely eat them. Wow! I didn't know you ate meat! Bart From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Aug 01 09:17:19 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20823 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 16:17:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 16:17:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d21.mx.aol.com) (205.188.144.207) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 16:17:13 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.ac.5e3fea9f (4560) for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 12:17:01 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.144.207 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/1/04 10:35:40 AM Central Daylight Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << Wow! I didn't know you ate meat! >> You are kidding, of course. Chuck the Heretic From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Aug 01 09:34:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92300 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 16:34:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 16:34:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 16:34:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2004 16:34:53 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 16:34:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <410D0DB1.4060401@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 142 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.90 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.225.190.255 Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Wow! I didn't know you ate meat! Only if it is road kill. Yum! Yum! From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Aug 01 10:00:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99242 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 17:00:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 17:00:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 17:00:36 -0000 Received: from pool-138-89-148-145.mad.east.verizon.net ([138.89.148.145] helo=sprynet.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BrJhJ-0007Lt-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 01 Aug 2004 10:00:33 -0700 Message-ID: <410D21B4.9090202@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 13:00:36 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.12 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/1/04 10:35:40 AM Central Daylight Time, > bartl@sprynet.com writes: > > << Wow! I didn't know you ate meat! >> > > You are kidding, of course. Sorry; I was referring to COOKED meat. Bart From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Aug 01 10:21:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35834 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 17:21:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 17:21:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m28.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.9) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 17:21:12 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.144.2f9d3c83 (24895) for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 13:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <144.2f9d3c83.2e3e8078@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 13:20:56 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.9 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/1/04 12:08:34 PM Central Daylight Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << Sorry; I was referring to COOKED meat. >> Well, people have to be cooked because they are like pork in more ways than one. Raw human flesh carries too many diseases. Chuck the Cannibal Heretic From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Sun Aug 01 10:59:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38448 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 17:59:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 17:59:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 17:59:34 -0000 Received: from versus (200-138-249-199.fnsce702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.138.249.199]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D3FF133E91; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 14:59:27 -0300 (BRT) Message-ID: <004301c477f1$1b7e4420$0301010a@versus> To: , References: <000001c477aa$69827700$150810ac@ALFITR01> Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 14:58:09 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.164 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable topics for meditation: 1.Atma cannot be killed, just physical bodies.It is not even death but a tr= ansformation. 2.Man can live on vegetables but he is conditioned from birth to eat meet b= ecause he needs many other substances that vegetables cannot supply accordi= ng to nutrition specialists.But depending on the organism, only Vegetables = will not suppy it.Every human is an individual in his nutritional needs. 3.Balance is the right answer. 3.Ramana Maharshi, also a Brahmin, for example, one of the greatest sages o= f contemporary India ( and perhaps the World) used to eat yogurt, milk deri= vates, and vegetables and it didn=B4t ever dimm his holiness.. 4.Evil is not what comes from man=B4s mouth but what comes out of it.( acco= rding to Gospel ) 5.This subject creates discussions that never ends. 7.HPB was not vegetarian. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Raghu K=20 To: theosophy_talks_truth@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 6:32 AM Subject: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! Cream StationeryHi As a brahmin, I am not supposed to harm anyone - so preaches my religion = / Bhagvad Gita. Whenever I feel someone is hurt, I feel guilty. The Buddhi= sts and Jains go a step further - They tie a cloth around their mouth and swe= ep the floor before they walk so that any insect may be wiped out lest they trample them. But, take the case of a butcher. His business is killing & selling meat.= He does not feel guilty of the act. Well, they even say that Jesus had fish with his disciples in his 'last supper'. Prophet Mohamed opined that goats and chickens were produced by = God for humans to consume happily and killing them after praying God is not wrong. Some opine that even plants have a life and plucking vegetables w= ill harm / hurt the plants, as much as killing a goat / hen / fish !!! Is it not wrong to harm other souls, humans or otherwise ? If yes, why ar= e religions (Christianity / Islam) not disallowing the same ? In Hinduism, vegetarianism is advocated not only to keep your system healthy (Vegetari= an foods are easily digestable & you acquire good traits by being vegetarian= , wheras non vegetarian foods kindly rakshas traits in you, so they say), b= ut also to refrain you from harming other souls. Is there any justification= in killing these creatures for filling up our stomach and feed the taste bud= s of our tongue and gullet ? We talk of hundreds of thousands of jews, kil= led by Hitler and millions of kurds, killed by Saddam Hussain. Who has the nerve to talk about these voiceless creatures ? I feel every atma has a right to live - not just humans ! If someone can kill some atma, in the name of God, he is as much a saddam / Hitler. I feel Religions are conveniently biased towards Humans alone. A sad news is that brahmins in orissa and West Bengal states of India tak= e eggs and fish, saying that they are vegetarian !!! If this norm of vegetarianism cannot be implemented strongly by religions= , well, then, all norms of living can be abolished so that people can live = a casual life, free of guilt / shame and inferiority complex. As you know, inferiority complex is an epidemic (psychological) that spreads to other persons easily. Atleast people can live with a good self esteem - may be,= v will track back to stone age. But then, that's how it is !!! Welcome comments / criticisms. Regards Raghu [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Aug 01 12:22:44 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75100 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 19:22:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 19:22:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 19:22:42 -0000 Received: from pool-138-89-148-145.mad.east.verizon.net ([138.89.148.145] helo=sprynet.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BrLuo-0005SF-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 01 Aug 2004 12:22:39 -0700 Message-ID: <410D4302.4080607@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:22:42 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <000001c477aa$69827700$150810ac@ALFITR01> <004301c477f1$1b7e4420$0301010a@versus> In-Reply-To: <004301c477f1$1b7e4420$0301010a@versus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.12 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar wrote: > 4.Evil is not what comes from manīs mouth but what comes out of it.( > according to Gospel ) I assume you mean not what "evil is not what goes into a man's mouth". However, I WOULD like to point out that Jesus was referring to a fouler substance than meat; he was talking about people who did not wash their hands before eating. Bart From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Aug 01 13:16:39 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71061 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 20:16:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 20:16:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 20:16:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2004 20:16:32 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 20:16:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <004301c477f1$1b7e4420$0301010a@versus> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1042 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.77 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.225.160.106 Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krishtar" wrote: > 2.Man can live on vegetables but he is conditioned from birth to eat meet because he needs many other substances that vegetables cannot supply according to nutrition specialists.But depending on the organism, only Vegetables will not suppy it.Every human is an individual in his nutritional needs. I know numerous people who have been strict veggoes for years and not a single one of them is suffering from nutritional deficiencies. Associations representing cattlemen will of course argue that LD animal cholestoerol, antibiotics, and parasites are all nutritional need without mwhom one cannot subsist, especially parasites. And then there are all those great prions that come from cows with "mad cow disease." Unfortunately, meat is so costly to grow for food consumption that if the human race continues on its path of procreating its way to extinxtion carnivorism will die out or the carnivores themselves will die of starvation, oen of the two. From bta101@hotmail.com Sun Aug 01 14:32:26 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bta101@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15215 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 21:32:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 21:32:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 21:32:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2004 21:32:22 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 21:32:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 174 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.74 From: "bta1012003" X-Originating-IP: 63.205.187.99 Subject: References X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=118449510 X-Yahoo-Profile: bta1012003 Hello, I want to do some research. Can someone point to me references where HPB mentioned the source of evil for this planet and/or solar system? Much appreciated, bta From Drpsionic@aol.com Sun Aug 01 15:02:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9905 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 22:02:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 22:02:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m19.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.11) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 22:02:12 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.c0.12a6449e (4568) for ; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:02:05 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.11 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/1/04 3:17:16 PM Central Daylight Time, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: << Unfortunately, meat is so costly to grow for food consumption that if the human race continues on its path of procreating its way to extinxtion carnivorism will die out or the carnivores themselves will die of starvation, oen of the two. >> No we won't. Chuck the Heretic From aupanishad@msn.com Sun Aug 01 15:55:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: aupanishad@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54233 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2004 22:55:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2004 22:55:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2004 22:55:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Aug 2004 22:55:26 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 22:55:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 27 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.84 From: "Andrew Smith" X-Originating-IP: 12.218.105.149 Subject: Again I Say . . . X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=153237085 X-Yahoo-Profile: aupanishad2003 "Soylent Green is People!" From alexspnk@yahoo.com Sun Aug 01 18:00:07 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: alexspnk@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96333 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2004 01:00:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2004 01:00:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40611.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.148) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2004 01:00:06 -0000 Message-ID: <20040802010003.94904.qmail@web40611.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.202.131.91] by web40611.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 01 Aug 2004 18:00:03 PDT Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:00:03 -0700 (PDT) To: bta1012003 , theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.148 From: Alexander Sprinkle Subject: Re: Theos-World References X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106174208 X-Yahoo-Profile: alexspnk Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This, as I understand it, is the only REAL definition of evil. What the wor= ld usually calls evil pertains to that which is non-lasting, and which, fro= m our small point of view is "real", nevertheless is non-lasting. The only = REAL part of us is not affected in any way by the world's evil. To quote th= e source: =20 Collected Writings VOLUME VIII October, 1887 =20 110 BLAVATSKY: COLLECTED WRITINGS =20 THE ORIGIN OF EVIL [Lucifer, Vol. I, No. 2, October, 1887, pp. 109-119] The problem of the origin of evil can be philosophically approached only if= the archaic Indian formula is taken as the basis of the argument. Ancient = wisdom alone solves the presence of the universal fiend in a satisfactory w= ay It attributes the birth of Kosmos and the evolution of life to the break= ing asunder of primordial, manifested UNITY, into plurality, or the great i= llusion of form. HOMOGENEITY having transformed itself into Heterogeneity, = contrasts have naturally been created: hence sprang what we call EVIL, whic= h thenceforward reigned supreme in this =93Vale of Tears.=94 Alex Sprinkle =20 bta1012003 wrote: Hello, I want to do some research. Can someone point to me references=20 where HPB mentioned the source of evil for this planet and/or solar=20 system? Much appreciated, bta Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From compiler@wisdomworld.org Sun Aug 01 20:32:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59370 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2004 03:32:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2004 03:32:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ams003.ftl.affinity.com) (216.219.253.136) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2004 03:32:47 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([68.55.92.204]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id <322116-20076>; Sun, 1 Aug 2004 23:32:11 -0400 Message-ID: <410DC38B.7413CFEF@wisdomworld.org> Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 23:31:07 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 216.219.253.136 From: Compiler Subject: "PLAIN THEOSOPHICAL TRACES IN POETRY" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld I hope that many readers, especially newcomers to theosophy, will find this wonderful and very unique article about "Poetry" presented in the "Light of Theosophy", which is the last article in the 166-article "Setting the Stage" Introductory book on my WisdomWorld.org web site, taken from THEOSOPHY magazine, to be very informative and useful. This is an article that no one should miss, and is an interesting subject that might open up a new thread of conversation. ==================================== Plain Theosophical Traces in Poetry: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/poetry.html This is the link to the index page where you can see the titles of all the articles in the book (as said, the "Plain Theosophical Traces in Poetry" article is number 166): http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html ======================================= Dear newcomers to Theosophy: I sincerely do hope that my web site offers a well-rounded overall view of Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement. The 3 main links to everything on it are found below. Please know that I'm only the compiler of all the articles found on my web site; I'm not a scholar; and also that I personally do not like to take part in conversations, even though I do hope that what I present from time to time will help a little in the discussions being carried on by others. So please do not be insulted when I do not respond if someone addresses me, or addresses anything that is found in any of the articles on my web site; I leave that for others to deal with if they want to -- whether pro, con, neutral, friendly or unfriendly. John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added (which contains 18 sections that can each be clicked on at the top of the page in order to go directly down to them, as well as to get the link to any particular section that you may want to use in a posting on a discussion board, or in an e-mail to someone): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html "PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT FORUM": This next link is to the most updated version of my economic proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering world that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org ------- From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Aug 02 04:13:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15517 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2004 11:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2004 11:13:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.101) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2004 11:13:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.142] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2004 11:12:39 -0000 Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 11:12:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 88 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.101 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.225.185.212 Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > No we won't. Yeah we will. From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Aug 02 04:13:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66922 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2004 11:13:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2004 11:13:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.227) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2004 11:13:34 -0000 Received: from pool0017.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.17] helo=DALLAS) by starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Brafb-0003aY-Lk; Mon, 02 Aug 2004 04:08:01 -0700 To: "AAA-Dal" Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 04:06:37 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c47880$f5460410$111ef4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec798607424ae88b1943c236e879f719bf6e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.227 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Originating-IP: 216.244.30.17 Subject: Theosophical promulgation and work X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable August 2 2004 =20 Dear Friends: =20 HPB wrote this, when late in 1890, and hardly 6 months before her body died= . imagine =96 she launched an effort to make THEOSOPHY more accessible to tho= se around her and within the THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT=20 =20 =20 WHY THE "VAHAN"? =20 by H. P. Blavatsky =20 BECAUSE, the word means a Vehicle.=20 =20 In Theosophical metaphysics this term denotes a basis, something, as a bearer, more substantial than that which it bears; e.g., Buddhi, the spiritual Soul, is the Vahan of Atm=E2 --the purely immaterial "principle."= =20 =20 Or again, as in physiology, our brain is the supposed physical vehicle or Vahan of superphysical thought.=20 =20 Thus, this little fortnightly paper is destined to serve as the bearer of Theosophical thought, and the recorder of all Theosophical activities.=20 =20 The enterprise is no financial speculation, but most decidedly an additiona= l expense which our meagre funds can ill afford, but which our duty urges us to undertake.=20 =20 The journal is to go free of charge to our British Branches and "unattached= " Fellows. It is also meant for those who are unable to subscribe to our regular magazines, but the wealthier will profit along with the poorer, for the following reasons.=20 =20 The Karma of those who could, but will not subscribe for the organs of thei= r Society, whether from indifference or any other cause, is their own; but th= e duty of keeping all the Fellows in touch with us, and au courant with Theosophical events--is ours.=20 =20 For, many of those who being virtually cut off from almost everything that goes on in the Theosophical centres, lose very soon their interest in the movement and continue henceforward "Fellows" but in name.=20 =20 It has been always held that a true Theosophist must have no personal ends to serve, no favourite hobby to propagate, no special doctrine to enforce o= r to defend.=20 =20 For, to merit the honourable title of Theosophist one must be an altruist, above all; one ever ready to help equally foe or friend; to act, rather than to speak; and urge others to action, while never losing an opportunity to work himself.=20 =20 But, if no true Theosophist will ever dictate to his fellow, brother or neighbor, what this one should believe or disbelieve in, nor force him to act on lines which may be distasteful to him, however proper they may appea= r to himself, there are other duties which he has to attend to:=20 =20 (a) to warn his brother of any danger the latter may fail to see; and=20 =20 (b) to share his knowledge--if he has acquired such with those who have bee= n less fortunate than himself in opportunities for acquiring it.=20 =20 Now, though we are painfully aware that a good number of members have joine= d the T.S. out of simple curiosity, while others, remaining for some time out of touch with the movement, have lost their interest in it, we must never lose the hope of reviving that interest.=20 =20 Many are the Fellows who, having failed at first to help on the cause, have now become earnest "working members," as they are called. Therefore, we say to-day to all: "If you would really help the noble cause--you must do so now; for, a few years more and your, as well as our efforts, will be in vain."=20 =20 The world moves in cycles, which proceed under the impetus of two mutually antagonistic and destroying Forces, the one striving to move Humanity onward, toward Spirit, the other forcing Mankind to gravitate downward, int= o the very abysses of matter. It remains with men to help either the one or the other. Thus, also, it is our present task, as Theosophists, to help in one or the other direction.=20 =20 We are in the very midst of the Egyptian darkness of Kali-yuga, the "Black Age," the first 5,000 years of which, its dreary first cycle, is preparing to close on the world between 1897 and 1898.=20 =20 Unless we succeed in placing the T.S. before this date on the safe side of the spiritual current, it will be swept away irretrievably into the Deep called "Failure," and the cold waves of oblivion will close over its doomed head.=20 =20 Thus will have ingloriously perished the only association whose aims, rules and original purposes answer in every particular and detail--if strictly carried out--to the innermost, fundamental thought of every great Adept Reformer, the beautiful dream of a UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD OF MAN.=20 =20 Verily, of philanthropical, political, and religious bodies we have many. Clubs, congresses, associations, unions, refuges, societies, each of them a social protector of special men and nations, special arts and sciences, or = a bulwark against this or that evil, spring up daily, each of these moved by its own party or sectarian spirit. But which of them is strictly universal, good for all and prejudicial to none?=20 =20 Which of them answers fully to the noble injunction of the Buddhist Arhats and also of King Asoka? "When thou plantest trees along the roads, allow their shade to protect the wicked as the good.=20 =20 When thou buildest a Rest-House, let its doors be thrown open to men of all religions, to theopponents of thine own creed, and to thy personal enemies as well as to thy friends." None, we say, none save our own Society, a purely unsectarian, unselfish body; the only one which has no party object in view, which is open to an men, the good and the bad, the lowly and the high, the foolish and the wise--and which calls them all "Brothers," regardless of their religion, race, colour, or station in life.=20 =20 To all these we now say:=20 =20 As "there is no religion higher than Truth,"=20 =20 No deity greater than the latter,=20 =20 no duty nobler than self-sacrifice, and that =20 the time for action is so short-- =20 Shall not each of you put his shoulder to the wheel of the heavy car of our Society and help us to land it safely across the abyss of matter, on to the safe side?=20 =20 =20 --H.P.B.=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Vahan, December, 1890=20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D May we all benefit from these words and inspiration. =20 Best wishes, =20 Dallas =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Aug 02 08:00:40 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57256 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2004 15:00:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2004 15:00:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m28.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.9) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2004 15:00:38 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.1cc.275fb7e1 (25508) for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1cc.275fb7e1.2e3fb0fa@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 11:00:10 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.9 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/2/04 6:48:45 AM Central Daylight Time, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: << Yeah we will. >> Only in our sausages. Chuck the Morlock Heretic From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Aug 02 13:22:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98405 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2004 20:22:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2004 20:22:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.105) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2004 20:22:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.170] by n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2004 20:21:42 -0000 Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:21:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1cc.275fb7e1.2e3fb0fa@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 478 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.105 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.226.69.110 Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > Only in our sausages. I would avoid ground meat if I were you (which I am not, fortunately for you.) I saw a butcher one time say you can't tell WHAT they grind up to put in there. Then he started laughing maniacally. I was laughing too, but only becauise I have not eaten meat in the past three years. You xarnivores don't know WHAT they grind up in those sausages, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, hA, HA. From jjhe@charter.net Mon Aug 02 13:24:49 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6464 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2004 20:24:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2004 20:24:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxsf11.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.28.211) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2004 20:24:23 -0000 Received: from mxip09.cluster1.charter.net (mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.139]) by mxsf11.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i72KOHm1023028 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:24:22 -0400 Received: from ts46-01-qdr89.trlck.ca.charter.com (HELO charter.net) (68.116.80.89) by mxip09.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2004 16:24:21 -0400 X-Ironport-AV: i="3.83,100,1089000000"; d="scan'217,208"; a="160110006:sNHT18823968" Message-ID: <410EA2F3.8060200@charter.net> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 13:24:19 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 209.225.28.211 From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Theosophy after HPB X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit By whom? Where are they published? --jhe > >Are you sure that this is the case? Leadbeater seems to be getting a >lot of critical challenges from Adyar Theosophists these days. > >Ariel > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Aug 02 13:36:56 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18956 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2004 20:36:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2004 20:36:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2004 20:36:55 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.d7.10c5fd38 (4394) for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:36:20 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.5 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/2/04 3:22:53 PM Central Daylight Time, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: << You xarnivores don't know WHAT they grind up in those sausages, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, hA, HA. >> Actually we do know. Our BRATwurst is made with real brats. Chuck the Cannibal Heretic From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Aug 02 19:21:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18517 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2004 02:21:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2004 02:21:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2004 02:21:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2004 02:21:42 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 02:21:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200407262136.i6QLaQgH011592@mailproxy2.pacific.net.au> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2255 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.77 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Gregory Tillett on "Leadbeater's birthdate and Pedro" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In the posting below from Gregory Tillett, he ends his message with the following: "....plain-speaking answers would be appreciated." Unfortunately, the plain-speaking answers are NOT forthcoming; in fact, there is only a deafening silence.... Daniel http://hpb.cc --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, gregory wrote: > Poor Pedro has to carefully avoid a basic - and to most historians and > indeed most human beings a really simple - issue by (Adyar's preferred > methods rides again!) attacking critics rather than dealing with > substance. Poor Leadbeater is being persecuted, etc., etc. This was, of > course, Leadbeater's preferred response to any criticism. But the > question of when someone was born is hardly a great occult mystery! > > So - let's cut out the spin and challenge Pedro to answer some simple > questions: > > 1. Did Leadbeater consistently lie about his background (including his > birthdate) up until the time when he began to prepare for the Anglican > ministry, and cause others to lie about it too? > > 2. If "no" - then what is the explanation for the conflict between the > official public record (e.g. the UK Registrar-General's records, the > British census returns, the Anglican diocesan records) and Leadbeater's > public claims? > > 3. If "yes" - then on what basis can claims about the "invisible" be > believed when made by a man whose claims about the mundane are > demonstratbly false? > > Given that Pedro is a priest of the Liberal Catholic Church, I might also > ask: > > 4. On what basis did the Liberal Catholic Church accept the corrected > Leadbeater birth date (as, e.g., in the Shearman book and the Shearman > biographical preface to "A Christian Gnosis") and then revert to the old > birthdate (as, e.g. in the General Episcopal Synod resolution that, since > Leadbdater could not lie, he must have been born in1847)? > > Assuming "there is no religion higher than truth" (and accepting at face > value Leadbeater's teachings on the necessaity of truthfulness, honesty, > the avoidance of any untruth, etc. as found in, e.g. "Talks on 'At the > Feet of the Master'"), plain-speaking answers would be appreciated. > > > Dr Gregory Tillett From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Aug 02 19:30:04 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 57868 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2004 02:30:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2004 02:30:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.101) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2004 02:30:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2004 02:29:50 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 02:29:48 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2103 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.101 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Who Will Answer? : Does Theosophy Give Us the Answers? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Who Will Answer? A song made popular in 1967 in the USA by Ed Ames Hallelujah! Hallelujah!, Hallelujah! >From the canyons of the mind, We wander on and stumble blindly Through the often-tangled maze Of starless nights and sunless days, While asking for some kind of clue Or road to lead us to the truth, But who will answer? Side by side two people stand, Together vowing, hand-in-hand That love's imbedded in their hearts, But soon an empty feeling starts To overwhelm their hollow lives, And when they seek the hows and whys, Who will answer? On a strange and distant hill, A young man's lying very still. His arms will never hold his child, Because a bullet running wild Has struck him down. And now we cry, "Dear God, Oh, why, oh, why?" But who will answer? High upon a lonely ledge, a figure teeters near the edge, And jeering crowds collect below To egg him on with, "Go, man, go!" But who will ask what led him To his private day of doom, And who will answer? If the soul is darkened By a fear it cannot name, If the mind is baffled When the rules don't fit the game, Who will answer? Who will answer? Who will answer? Hallelujah! Hallelujah!, Hallelujah! In the rooms of dark and shades, The scent of sandalwood pervades. The colored thoughts in muddled heads Reclining in the rumpled beds Of unmade dreams that can't come true, And when we ask what we should do, Who... Who will answer? 'Neath the spreading mushroom tree, The world revolves in apathy As overhead, a row of specks Roars on, drowned out by discotheques, And if a secret button's pressed Because one man has been outguessed, Who will answer? Is our hope in walnut shells Worn 'round the neck with temple bells, Or deep within some cloistered walls Where hooded figures pray in halls? Or crumbled books on dusty shelves, Or in our stars, or in ourselves, Who will answer? If the soul is darkened By a fear it cannot name, If the mind is baffled When the rules don't fit the game, Who will answer? Who will answer? Who will answer? Hallelujah! Hallelujah!, Hallelujah! From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Aug 02 19:50:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83912 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2004 02:50:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2004 02:50:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.103) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2004 02:50:23 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2004 02:50:17 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 02:50:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 185 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.103 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.226.69.199 Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > Actually we do know. Our BRATwurst is made with real brats. Whew! When I first read that I thought you wrote BART-wurst. From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Aug 02 20:39:18 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87617 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2004 03:39:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2004 03:39:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d20.mx.aol.com) (205.188.139.136) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2004 03:39:17 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.76.3ef482f9 (25508) for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2004 23:38:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <76.3ef482f9.2e4062c2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 23:38:42 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.139.136 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/2/04 10:22:33 PM Central Daylight Time, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: << Whew! When I first read that I thought you wrote BART-wurst. >> Gods no! He'd have to be marinated forever! Chuck the Gourmet Cannibal Heretic From perrycoles@yahoo.com Tue Aug 03 00:42:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: perrycoles@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65218 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2004 07:42:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2004 07:42:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2004 07:42:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2004 07:42:12 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 07:42:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 985 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.73 From: "Perry Coles" X-Originating-IP: 139.230.245.20 Subject: Classic quote from B.P Wadia X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=93736069 X-Yahoo-Profile: perrycoles "Believers and sceptics become blind believers and unreasonable sceptics when they fall prey to fanaticism. Our task here is to study, to examine, to judge; to investigate relentlessly but honestly; to believe nothing unless the proof is found, but also not to reject anything when that proof is obtained. Not by the way of phenomena but by that of philosophy; not swayed by the personality but by adhering to principles; not by blind faith but by illumined reasoning; not by argumentation but by meditation; not by foolish credulity but by intelligent cooperation; not proceeding from the teacher to the teachings but examining the consistency, the logic, the inherent truth, the reasonableness and the completeness of the teachings themselves. Throw the light of all available knowledge on the teachings; throw the light of these teachings on all available knowledge; by mutual comparison and keen criticism judge the teachings of H. P. Blavatsky." B.P Wadia Perry From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 03 05:43:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31615 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2004 12:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2004 12:43:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO audiogram.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.253) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2004 12:43:42 -0000 Received: from pool0014.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.14] helo=DALLAS) by audiogram.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Bryde-0003Fj-Tk; Tue, 03 Aug 2004 05:43:36 -0700 To: Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 05:43:19 -0700 Message-ID: <002a01c47957$795c6330$0e0cf4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000001c477aa$69827700$150810ac@ALFITR01> X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec7960dd6087166a3a827716884b3487f225350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.253 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Originating-IP: 216.244.12.14 Subject: RE: Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Aug 3 2004 Dear Friend: QUESTION; Why vegetarianism? BRIEF ANSWER 1. As I understand it because it is a benevolence due to the animal kingdom and the level of intelligence those forms represent. 2. The whole of Nature (the Universe in toto) exhibits a continual improvement in the quality of material and other forms used by Intelligence= . 3. It is posited in THEOSOPHY that every Unit of Consciousness -- (The atom-life, or "monad") -- each is an immortal Pilgrim -- struggling through an enormous period of time to eventually become a "human THINKER," (this is the freedom to think and act of itself as a unit) and then (a deva) or "God" -- a "super-human" (in mind, and in spiritual perception and action) -- as acquiring (through self-effort) the wisdom of universal-self-consciousness. 4. Human diet does not need animals as food to maintain itself.=20 REFERENCES 1 ABOUT KILLING ANIMALS A correspondent asks: Will you kindly explain why, if you think it wrong to kill a water bug, tha= t you should consider it right to slay larger animals for food? I do not remember having said it was wrong to kill a water bug: hence there is no conclusion to be made from that to the question of feeding on animals= , so far as I am concerned. The questions of right and wrong are somewhat mixed on this subject. If one says it is morally wrong to kill a water bug, then it follows that it is wrong to live at all, inasmuch as in the air we breathe and the water imbibed there are many millions of animals in structure more complicated than bugs.=20 Though these are called infusoria and animalculae, yet they are living, moving beings as much as are bugs. We draw them in and at once they are destroyed, slain to the last one.=20 Shall we therefore stop living? The whole of life is a battle, a destructio= n and a compromise as long as we are on the material plane. As human beings w= e have to keep on living, while in our destructive path millions of beings ar= e hourly put to death. Even by living and earning a living each one of us is preventing some one else from doing the same, who, if we were dead, might step into our shoes. But if we abandoned the fight - were we, indeed, able to so do - then the ends of evolution could not be attained. Hence we have to stay and endure what Karma falls from the necessary deaths we occasion. So the true position seems to me to be this, that in certain environments, at certain stages of evolution, we have to do an amount of injury to others that we cannot avoid.=20 So while we thus live we must eat, some of flesh and others of the vegetable. Neither class is wholly right or wrong.=20 It becomes a wrong when we deliberately without actual need destroy the lives of animals or insects. So the man who was born in a family and generation of meat-eaters and eats the meat of slaughtered animals does les= s wrong than the woman who, though a vegetarian, wears the feathers of slaughtered birds in her hats, since it was not necessary to her life that such decoration should be indulged in. So the epicure who tickles his palat= e with many dishes of meats not necessary for sustentation is in the same cas= e as the woman who wears bird's feathers.=20 Again as to shoes, saddles, bridles, pocketbooks, and what not, of leather. These are all procured from the skins of slain animals. Shall they be abolished? Are the users of them in the wrong? Any one can answer. Or did w= e live near the north pole we would be compelled to live on bears' and wolves= ' meat and fat. Man, like all material beings, lives at the expense of some others. Even our death is brought about by the defeat of one party of microbes who are devoured by the others, who then themselves turn round and devour each other. But the real man is a spirit-mind, not destructible nor destroying; and the kingdom of heaven is not of meat nor of drink: it cometh not from eating no= r refraining- it cometh of itself. - ED Path, March, 1892 =20 ----------------------------------------------------------- 2 SPIRIT - SOUL - BODY-FORM =20 =20 "...the "Spirit," or the divine portion of the soul is pre-existent as a distinct being from all eternity."...Both the human Spirit (or the Individuality), the re-incarnating Spiritual Ego, and Buddhi, the Spiritual Soul, are pre-existent. But, while the former exists as a distinct entity, an individualization, the soul exists as pre-existing breath, an unscient portion of an intelligent whole. Both were originally formed from the Eternal Ocean of light, but as the Fire-Philosophers... expressed it, there is a visible as well as invisible spirit in fire." Key 105-6 =20 NEPHESH - Animal "Soul" =20 "...(animals)...These are no less than man, informed with the same principl= e of sentient life, the nephesh of the 2nd chapter of Genesis. The Soul is b= y no means the Mind, nor can an idiot, bereft of the latter, be called a "soul-less" being..." HPB Articles II 18 =20 =20 "...(the) animal soul (Nephesh of the Hebrew Kabalist)...the ray which emanates from the Higher Manas or permanent EGO, and is that "principle" which forms the human mind--in animals instinct." Transactions. 59 =20 =20 "...man has one "principle" more than the tiniest insect, but because man i= s a perfected animal, the vehicle of a fully developed monad, self-conscious and deliberately following its own line of progress, whereas in the insect, and even the higher animal, the higher triad of principles is absolutely dormant." Trans. 14-15 =20 "A dog that has to exercise its own sagacity to find food, will sooner develop psychical powers in that direction, than one that does nothing but eat and sleep, and the individual or differentiated monad of the former wil= l sooner reach the condition necessary to enter the human kingdom. The rudiments of hope, patience, faith, fidelity, confidence, etc., are found i= n the animal kingdom." -- HPB Theosophist 5- p. 223=20 =20 =20=20 "The difference between animals and men is this: the former are ensouled b= y the "principles" potentially, the latter actually." Key 104 MAN'S FORM IS AN ANIMAL "Man...in his outward form, simply an animal, hardly more perfect than his pithecoid-like ancestor of the 3rd Round. He is a living body, not a livin= g being, since the realization of existence, the "Ego-Sum," necessitates self-consciousness, and an animal can only have direct consciousness, or instinct. The soul, whose body vehicle is the Astral, ethereo-substantial envelope, could die, and man be still living on earth--i.e., the soul could free itself from and quit the tabernacle for various reasons--such as insanity, spiritual and physical depravity, etc. Therefore that which living men (Initiates) can do, the Dhyanis, who have no physical body to hamper them, can do still better."=09 SD I 134-5 MAN'S FORM -- VEHICLE OF A MONAD "...man is a perfected animal, the vehicle of a fully developed monad, self-conscious and deliberately following its own line of progress, whereas in the insect, and even the higher animal, the higher triad of principles i= s absolutely dormant." Trans. 14-15 =20 =20 LIGHTING UP OF THE MANAS (MIND) =20 "Having passed through all the kingdoms of nature in the previous three Rounds, his physical frame--one adapted to the thermal conditions of those early periods--was ready to receive the divine Pilgrim at the first dawn of human life, i.e., 18,000,000 years ago. It is only at the mid-point of the 3rd Root-Race that man was endowed with Manas. Once united the two and the= n the three made one; for though the lower animals, from the amoeba to man, received their monads, in which all the higher qualities are potential, all have to remain dormant till each reaches its human form, before which stage manas (mind) has no development in them. In the animals every principle is paralyzed, and in a fetus-like state, save the 2nd (vital) and the 3rd (the astral), and the rudiments of the 4th (Kama, which is desire, instinct) whose intensity and development varies and changes with the species." S D II 254-5 =20 =20 "Atma-Buddhi [ Monad ] is dual and Manas is triple; inasmuch as the former has two aspects, and the latter three, i.e., as a principle per se, which gravitates, in its higher aspect, to Atma-Buddhi, and follows, in its lower nature, Kama, the seat of terrestrial divisions awakening to intelligence; and the third and last decidedly animal: i.e., Manas succumbs to the temptations of Kama." Men are made complete only during their third, towar= d the fourth cycle (race). They are made "gods" for good or evil, and responsible only when the two arcs meet (after 3 1/2 Rounds towards the fifth Race). They are made so by the Nirmanakaya (spiritual or astral remains) of the Rudra-Kumaras, "cursed to be reborn on earth again; meanin= g doomed in their natural turn to reincarnation in the higher ascending arc o= f the terrestrial cycle." SD II 254-5fn =20 KAMA - CENTER OF THE ANIMAL MAN =20 =20 "...(d) Kama rupa -- The seat of animal desires and passions. -- This i= s the center of the animal man, where lies the line of demarcation which separates the mortal man from the immortal entity." Key 91 =20 =20 HIGHER AND LOWER MIND DEFINED =20 =20 " [ Plato teaches ] ... "when the Soul, psuche, "allies herself to the Nous (divine spirit or substance), she does everything aright and felicitously;" but the case is otherwise when she attaches herself to Anoia, (folly, or th= e irrational animal Soul). Here, then, we have Manas (or the Soul in general= ) in its two aspects: when attaching itself to Anoia (our Kama rupa, or the "Animal Soul" in "Esoteric Buddhism," runs towards entire annihilation, as far as the personal Ego is concerned; when allying itself to the Nous (Atma-Buddhi) it merges into the immortal, imperishable Ego, and then its spiritual consciousness of the personal that was, becomes immortal." Key 93 =20 ANIMALS REINCARNATE =20 =20 [ Animals ] "...they do reincarnate, but that which from them goes forth to reincarnation is not similar to the reincarnating principle of the human being. Were we to suppose that the monads now going through the present animal life were reincarnating in a haphazard way, then surely law disappears our philosophy tumbles to the ground, and a reign of terror in the scheme of evolution ensues." WQJ Art II 486 =20 =20 "In calling the animal "Soulless," it is not depriving the beast, from the humblest to the highest species, of a "soul." but only of a conscious surviving Ego-soul, i.e., that principle which survives after a man, and reincarnates like a man. The animal has an astral body, that survives the physical body for a short period; but its (animal) Monad does not reincarnate in the same, but in a higher species, and has no "Devachan" of course. It has the seeds of all the human principles in itself, but they are latent." S D II 196fn =20 =20 KARMA OF ANIMALS =20 =20 "Animals have Karma, or consequence of act, but they have not man's responsibility. While they seem to suffer and enjoy, it is all without any self-consciousness, and hence is less in itself and less lasting in effect. Their karma is bound up with man; and he is the responsible one and will have to bear the responsibility, although they feel the burden directly." WQJ Art II 566=20=20 =20 =20 "...the effect of Karma upon the animals... the whole of creation waits upo= n man and groans that he keeps back the enlightenment of all. What happens when...you crush out the life of a common croton bug ? Well, it is destroyed and you forget it. But you brought it to an untimely end, short though its life would have been. Imagine this being done at hundreds and thousands of places...Each of these little creatures had life, and energy; each some degree of intelligence, The sum total of effects of all these deaths of small things must be appreciable. If not, then our doctrines are wrong and there is no wrong in putting our the life of a human being ... [animals] killed for sport..." WQJ Art I 14-5 =09 =20 "The brutes unconsciously are aware of the general human opposition, which in each human being they see focalized." WQJ Letters 87 =20 =20=20 ANIMAL MONADS -- EVOLUTION AND PROGRESS =20 =20 "While it is stated that no more animal monads can enter on the man-stage, it is not said nor inferred that the incoming supply of monads for the animal kingdom has stopped. They may still be coming in from other "worlds= " for evolution among the animals of this globe...It is quite possible also that the animal monads may be carried on to other members of the earth-chai= n in advance of man for the purpose of necessary development, and this would lessen the number of their appearances here...the animals, however, being devoid of developed Manas, have no Devachan and must be forced onwards to the next planet in the chain...as it gives them a chance for development in readiness for the time when the monads of that kingdom shall begin to rise to a new human kingdom. They have lost nothing, but, on the contrary, will be the gainers." WQJ Art I 103 =20 =20 WHAT IS A "MONAD" ? =20 =20 "...a Monad [ Atma-Buddhi ] cannot either progress or develop, or even be affected by the change of states it passes through. It is not on this worl= d or plane, and may be compared only to an indestructible star of divine ligh= t and fire, thrown down on to our (175fn) Earth as a plank of salvation for the personalities in which it indwells. It is for the latter to cling to it; and thus partaking of its divine nature, obtain immortality. Left to itself the Monad will cling to no one; but, like the "plank," be drifted away to another incarnation by the unresisting current of evolution...the evolution of the external form or body round the astral is produced by the terrestrial forces, just as in the case of the lower kingdoms; but the evolution of the internal or real MAN is purely spiritual. It is now no more a passage of the impersonal Monad through many and various forms of matter--endowed at best with instinct and consciousness on quite a differen= t plane--as in the case of external evolution, but a journey of the "pilgrim-soul" through various states of not only matter but self consciousness and self-perception, or perception from apperception." S D I 174-5fn =20 =20 MONAD -- A CONCRETE MANIFESTATION OF THE UNIVERSAL ENERGY AT A PARTICULAR LEVEL OF EVOLUTION =20 =20 "...the Monadic, or rather Cosmic, Essence...in the mineral, vegetable and animal, though the same throughout the series of cycles from the lowest elemental up to the Deva Kingdom, yet differs in the scale of progression ...the more correct phraseology...would have been to call it "the Monad manifesting in that form of Prakriti called the Mineral Kingdom." The atom as represented in the ordinary scientific hypothesis, is not a particle of something, animated by a psychic something, destined after aeons to blossom as a man. But it is a concrete manifestation of the Universal Energy which itself has not yet become individualized; a sequential manifestation of th= e one Universal Monas. The ocean (of matter) the life-impulse reaches the evolutionary stage of man-birth. The tendency towards segregation into individual Monads is gradual, and is the higher animals comes almost to the point." S D I 178 =20 =20 "...it is our Dhyan-Chohanic essence--the causality of the primal cause which creates physical man--which is the living, active and potential matter, pregnant per se with that animal consciousness of a superior kind, such as is found in the ant or the beaver, which produces the long series o= f physiological differentiations...every type in the visible has its prototyp= e in the invisible Universe..." S D II 120 =20 =20 SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS AND THE ABYSS=20 BETWEEN PSYCHIC AND NOETIC =20 =20 "...Self-consciousness belongs alone to man and proceeds from the SELF, the higher Manas. Only, whereas the psychic element (or Kama-manas) is common to both the animal and the human being--the far higher degree of its development in the latter resting merely on the greater perfection and sensitiveness of his cerebral cells--no physiologist...will ever be able to solve the mystery of the human mind, in its highest spiritual manifestation= , or in its dual aspect of the psychic and the noetic (or the manasic)...he would have to admit a lower (animal), and a higher (or divine) mind in man, or what is known in Occultism as the "personal" and the "impersonal" (10) Egos. For, between the psychic and the noetic, between the personality and the individuality, there exists the same abyss as between a "Jack the Ripper," and a holy Buddha." HPB Art II 9-10 =20 =20 "Between man and animal--whose Monads (or Jivas) are fundamentally identical--there is the impassable abyss of Mentality and Self-consciousness. What is human mind in it higher aspect, whence comes it, if it is not a portion of the essence--and, in some rare cases of incarnation, the very essence--of a higher Being: one from a higher and divine plane? Can man--a god in the animal form--be the product of Materia= l Nature by evolution alone. even as is the animal, which differs from man in external shape, but by no means in the materials of its physical fabric, an= d is informed by the same, though undeveloped, Monad--seeing that the intellectual potentialities of the two differ as the Sun does from the Glow-worm ? And what is it that creates such a difference, unless man is a= n animal plus a living god within his physical shell ?" S D II 81 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I hope this explains that which is asked about, Best wishes, Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Raghu K=20 Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 2:32 AM To:=20 Subject: Vegetarianism & Religions ! Cream StationeryHi As a brahmin, I am not supposed to harm anyone - so preaches my religion / Bhagvad Gita. Whenever I feel someone is hurt, I feel guilty. The Buddhist= s and Jains go a step further - They tie a cloth around their mouth and sweep the floor before they walk so that any insect may be wiped out lest they trample them. But, take the case of a butcher. His business is killing & selling meat. H= e does not feel guilty of the act. Well, they even say that Jesus had fish with his disciples in his 'last supper'. Prophet Mohamed opined that goats and chickens were produced by Go= d for humans to consume happily and killing them after praying God is not wrong. Some opine that even plants have a life and plucking vegetables wil= l harm / hurt the plants, as much as killing a goat / hen / fish !!! Is it not wrong to harm other souls, humans or otherwise ? If yes, why are religions (Christianity / Islam) not disallowing the same ? In Hinduism, vegetarianism is advocated not only to keep your system healthy (Vegetarian foods are easily digestable & you acquire good traits by being vegetarian, wheras non vegetarian foods kindly rakshas traits in you, so they say), but also to refrain you from harming other souls. Is there any justification i= n killing these creatures for filling up our stomach and feed the taste buds of our tongue and gullet ? We talk of hundreds of thousands of jews, kille= d by Hitler and millions of kurds, killed by Saddam Hussain. Who has the nerve to talk about these voiceless creatures ? I feel every atma has a right to live - not just humans ! If someone can kill some atma, in the name of God, he is as much a saddam / Hitler. I feel Religions are conveniently biased towards Humans alone. A sad news is that brahmins in orissa and West Bengal states of India take eggs and fish, saying that they are vegetarian !!! If this norm of vegetarianism cannot be implemented strongly by religions, well, then, all norms of living can be abolished so that people can live a casual life, free of guilt / shame and inferiority complex. As you know, inferiority complex is an epidemic (psychological) that spreads to other persons easily. Atleast people can live with a good self esteem - may be, v will track back to stone age. But then, that's how it is !!! Welcome comments / criticisms. Regards Raghu From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Aug 03 05:44:53 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46473 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2004 12:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2004 12:44:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO audiogram.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.253) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2004 12:44:53 -0000 Received: from pool0014.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.14] helo=DALLAS) by audiogram.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Brye6-0003Fj-H5; Tue, 03 Aug 2004 05:44:09 -0700 To: Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 05:43:19 -0700 Message-ID: <003a01c47957$8a7d0020$0e0cf4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79a4292ffed6b432729fac1437cd2f4dbc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.253 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Originating-IP: 216.244.12.14 Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Atlantis - the Culprit X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Aug 2 2004 Dear Reed: May I break in and offer the following for consideration?=20 Re: Atlantis engulfment -- purely mechanical ? BRIEF REPLY Can you show me any physical plane effect that does not have some cause tha= t is other than "physical?"=20=20 That which directs our fingers when we type is muscular control. What is that control? Direction, emotion, thought -- all non physical - yet, most powerful. For this reason we create our own Karma. And as a group or race we create the cycles. The astronomical signs and events only serve as an impersonal "clock," on which the return of Karmic cycles, for either an Ego= , or a Race-group of Egos, is marked by themselves.=20 Are "we" not, for our own physical bodies and their actions, like the Karmi= c and supervising "planetary Spirits?"=20=20 The physical body has its own karmic cycles and cohesiveness is the result of aeons of continued trial and effort -- producing in it an innate intelligence (some may call this its 'heredity') whereby it maintains (by dealing with the assistance provided in its environment by food, air, water= , shelter, health, etc..) its unity and usefulness.=20=20 We, (as Monadic and immortal Units showing capacity in individualism, self-determination, motion, mind, etc...) as ruling "tenants," help or hinder (by our creative or destructive decisions) the purely material side of bodily life. It is (to me) as though a superior force modified those lesser powers, as I review, in my self our conjoined life memories. [ Let's set aside any possible correlation with an astral, or a pranic, or = a Karmic CAUSE ? If these mean nothing to you, then the question is moot. However the literature of Theosophy provides adequate argument showing mate= r and its forms are incomplete unless the non-physical "directors" decide on all or any action. So too with geological processes and the progress of "races."=20 No "Planetary Spirit" can do more than supervise the processes of Karma in the realms of physical substance and matter, and the 7 areas of study are a= t least valid hypotheses to consider.=20=20 To me, after 50 years of study, of our modern Science, I find it is full of holes that remain unexplained. Theosophy on the contrary explains everything as a coherent whole -- so why not test and trust it? Does Science know of these? Is Theosophy out in 'left field?' Or does our modern Science lack the perceptive links that can be obtained -- as shown i= n ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE from the past observation and vision of the Great Lodge (S D I 272-3) as couched in the SECRET DOCTRINE ?=20=20 Need we always try to equate Theosophy with the superficial gropings of Science? There is too much evidence of its fallacies and dead-ends. But those are well covered up, and most people don't think deeply enough to uncover those things for themselves -- or they decide to be skeptics.=20 Is our 'scientific' investigation and discovery of ancient relics and artifacts totally honest? [ see the books of Charles Fort, E. Velikovsky, Von Danigen, Cremo & Johnson, J A West, etc...]=20 The Karma of the so-called (Theosophical "races") of mankind in general is = a type made up of many physical "colors" and heredities. It is made of a general and temporarily common set of emotional impulses (selfishness and vice limited to the present "personality") and higher aspirations (brotherhood and virtue -- products of its innate immortality).=20=20 The Human mind sees both these, individually and more vaguely: collectively= . Of course, The SECRET DOCTRINE teaches these "generalities" will alter from place to place on the Earth's surface, and from racial and tribal groups to others, as the ever emigrating immortal Egoic Monads come and go from the scene according to their individual and joint Karma.=20 REFERENCE: PLANETARY SPIRITS - Observers=20 - Karma - Periodical Builders "the "four Maharajahs" or great Kings of the Dhyan-Chohans, the Devas who preside, each over one of the four cardinal points. They are the Regents or Angels who rule over the Cosmical Forces of North, South, East and West, Forces having each a distinct occult property. These BEINGS are also connected with Karma, as the latter needs physical and material agents to carry out her decrees,.." S D I 122-3=20 "It is not the "Rector" or "Maharajah" who punishes or rewards...but man himself - his deeds or Karma, attracting individually and collectively (as in the case of whole nations sometimes), every kind of evil and calamity. W= e produce CAUSES, and these awaken the corresponding powers in the sidereal world; which powers are magnetically and irresistibly attracted to - and react upon - those who produced these causes; whether such persons are practically the evil-doers, or simply Thinkers who brood mischief. Thought is matter, we are taught by modern Science; and "every particle of the existing matter must be a register of all that has happened..." [Babbage] S D I 124 "Each leads an army of spiritual beings to protect... the four celestial beings are precisely this. They are the protectors of mankind and also the Agents of Karma on Earth, whereas the Lipika are concerned with Humanity's hereafter." S D I 126 "There are three chief groups of Builders and as many of the Planetary Spirits and the Lipika, each group being again divided into Seven sub-groups... The "Builders" are the representatives of the first "Mind-Born" Entities, therefore of the primeval Rishi-Prajapati..." S D I 127 "They build or rather rebuild every "System" after the "Night." The Second group of the Builders is the Architect of our planetary chain exclusively; and the third, the progenitor of our Humanity - the Macrocosmic prototype o= f the microcosm.=20 The Planetary Spirits are the informing spirits of the Stars in general, an= d of the Planets especially. They rule the destinies of men who are all born under one or other of their constellations; the second and third groups pertaining to other systems have the same functions, and all rule various departments in Nature... they are the guardian deities who preside over the eight points of the compass - the four cardinal and the four intermediate points - and are called Loka-Palas, "Supporters or guardians of the World" (in our visible Kosmos)... The Lipika... are the Spirits of the Universe, whereas the Builders are onl= y our own planetary deities.=20 The former belong to the most occult portion of Cosmogenesis, which cannot be given here. Whether the Adepts (even the highest) know this angelic orde= r in the completeness of its triple degrees, or only the lower one connected with the records of our world, is something which the writer is unprepared to say, and she would incline rather to the latter supposition. Of its highest grade one thing only is taught: the Lipika are connected with Karma - being its direct Recorders."=20 S D I 128 EVER-EVOLVING MAN - The Immortal MONAD -=20=20 A Universal Phenomena & Necessity "In sober truth...every "Spirit" so-called is either a disembodied or a future man. As from the highest Archangel (Dhyan Chohan) down to the last conscious "Builder" (the inferior class of Spiritual Entities), all such ar= e men, having lived aeons ago, in other Manvantaras, on this or other Spheres= ; so the inferior, semi-intelligent and non-intelligent Elementals-are all future men.=20 That fact alone-that a Spirit is endowed with intelligence-is a proof to th= e Occultist that that Being must have been a man, and acquired his knowledge and intelligence throughout the human cycle.=20 There is but one indivisible and absolute Omniscience and Intelligence in the Universe, and this thrills throughout every atom and infinitesimal poin= t of the whole finite Kosmos which hath no bounds, and which people call SPACE, considered independently of anything contained in it.=20 But the first differentiation of its reflection in the manifested World is purely Spiritual, and the Beings generated in it are not endowed with a consciousness that has any relation to the one we conceive of. They can hav= e no human consciousness or Intelligence before they have acquired such, personally and individually. This may be a mystery, yet it is a fact, in Esoteric philosophy, and a very apparent one too.=20 The whole order of nature evinces a progressive march towards a higher life= . There is design in the action of the seemingly blindest forces. The whole process of evolution with its endless adaptations is a proof of this.=20 The immutable laws that weed out the weak and feeble species, to make room for the strong, and which ensure the "survival of the fittest," though so cruel in their immediate action-all are working toward the grand end. The very fact that adaptations do occur, that the fittest do survive in the struggle for existence, shows that what is called "unconscious Nature"* is in reality an aggregate of forces manipulated by semi-intelligent beings (Elementals) guided by High Planetary Spirits, (Dhyan Chohans), whose collective aggregate forms the manifested verbum of the unmanifested LOGOS, and constitutes at one and the same time the MIND of the Universe and its immutable LAW.=20 [Nature taken in its abstract sense, cannot be "unconscious," as it is the emanation from, and thus an aspect (on the manifested plane) of the ABSOLUT= E consciousness. Where is that daring man who would presume to deny to vegetation and even to minerals a consciousness of their own. All he can sa= y is, that this consciousness is beyond his comprehension.] Three distinct representations of the Universe in its three distinct aspect= s are impressed upon our thought by the esoteric philosophy:=20 [1] the PRE-EXISTING (evolved from)=20 [2] the EVER-EXISTING; and=20 [3] the PHENOMENAL-the world of illusion, the reflection, and shadow thereof. During the great mystery and drama of life known as the Manvantara= , real Kosmos is like the object placed behind the white screen upon which ar= e thrown the Chinese shadows...=20 The actual figures and things remain invisible, while the wires of evolutio= n are pulled by the unseen hands; and men and things are thus but the reflections, on the white field, of the realities behind the snares of Mahamaya, or the great Illusion. This was taught in every philosophy, in every religion, ante as well as post diluvian, in India and Chaldea, by the Chinese as by the Grecian Sages. In the former countries these three Universes were allegorized, in exoteric teachings, by the three trinities emanating from the Central eternal germ and forming with it a Supreme Unity= : the initial, the manifested, and the Creative Triad, or the three in One. The last is but the symbol, in its concrete expression, of the first ideal two.=20 Hence Esoteric philosophy passes over the necessarianism of this purely metaphysical conception, and calls the first one, only, the Ever Existing. This is the view of every one of the six great schools of Indian philosophy-the six principles of that unit body of WISDOM of which the "gnosis," the hidden knowledge, is the seventh." S D I 277-8 RULING AND CONTROLLING "Alone the adepts, i.e. the embodied spirits -- are forbidden by our wise and intransgressible laws to completely subject to themselves another and a weaker will, -- that of free born man. The latter mode of proceeding is the favourite one resorted to by the "Brothers of the Shadow," the Sorcerers, the Elementary Spooks, and, as an isolated exception -- by the highest Planetary Spirits, those, who can no longer err.=20 But these [the highest Planetary Spirits] appear on Earth but at the origin of every new human kind; at the junction of, and close of the two ends of the great cycle. And, they remain with man no longer than the time required for the eternal truths they teach to impress themselves so forcibly upon th= e plastic minds of the new races as to warrant them from being lost or entirely forgotten in ages hereafter, by the forthcoming generations.=20 The mission of the planetary Spirit is but to strike the KEY NOTE OF TRUTH. Once he has directed the vibration of the latter to run its course uninterruptedly along the catenation of that race and to the end of the cycle -- the denizen of the highest inhabited sphere disappears from the surface of our planet -- till the following "resurrection of flesh." The vibrations of the Primitive Truth are what your philosophers name "innate ideas." M L pp. 40-1 ..."the primeval one Truth, taught humanity in the infancy of its races by every First Messenger -- the Planetary Spirit mentioned on the reverse of page the third -- and whose remembrance lingere= d in the memory of man as Elu of the Chaldees, Osiris the Egyptian, Vishnu, the first Buddhas and so on." M L p. 48-9 GEOLOGICAL TRACES and ancient continents "Let us leave modern Science aside for a moment and turn to ancient knowledge. As we are assured by Archaic Scientists that all such geological cataclysms - from the upheaval of oceans, deluges, and shifting of continents, down to the present year's cyclones, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tidal waves, and even the extraordinary weather and seeming shifting of seasons which perplexes all European and American meteorologists - are due to, and depend on the moon and planets; aye, that even modest and neglected constellations have the greatest influence on the meteorological and cosmical changes, over, and within our earth, let us giv= e one moment's attention to our sidereal despots and rulers of our globe and men. Modern Science denies any such influence; archaic Science affirms it. We may see what both say with regard to this question." S D II 699=20=20 FLOODS, DELUGES, ENGULFMENTS [see reference to the cyclic (Karmic ?) 'floods' that prepared the new lands for the "fifth Race" and engulfed the 'old lands' -- S D II 145-6, 329, 338-9, 785 ] "No more striking confirmation of our position could be given, than the fac= t that the ELEVATED RIDGE in the Atlantic basin, 9,000 feet in height, which runs for some two or three thousand miles southwards from a point near the British Islands, first slopes towards South America, then shifts almost at right angles to proceed in a SOUTH-EASTERLY line toward the African coast, whence it runs on southward to Tristan d'Acunha. This ridge is a remnant of an Atlantic continent, and, could it be traced further, would establish the reality of a submarine horse-shoe junction with a former continent in the Indian Ocean. (Cf. chart adapted from the "Challenger" and "Dolphin" soundings in Mr. Donnelly's, "Atlantis, the Antediluvian World," p. 47.)=20 The Atlantic portion of Lemuria was the geological basis of what is generally known as Atlantis. The latter, indeed, must be regarded rather as a development of the Atlantic prolongation of Lemuria, than as an entirely new mass of land upheaved to meet the special requirements of the Fourth Root-Race. Just as in the case of Race-evolution, so in that of the shiftin= g and re-shifting of continental masses, no hard and fast line can be drawn where a new order ends and another begins. Continuity in natural processes is never broken. Thus the Fourth Race Atlanteans were developed from a nucleus of Northern Lemurian Third Race Men, centred, roughly speaking, toward a point of land in what is now the mid-Atlantic Ocean. Their continent was formed by the coalescence of many islands and peninsulas which were upheaved in the ordinary course of time and became ultimately the true home of the great Race known as the Atlanteans. After this consummation was once attained it follows, as stated on the highest "occult" authority, that "Lemuria should no more be confounded with the Atlantis Continent, than Europe with America." ... =20 The above, coming from quarters so discredited by orthodox Science, will, o= f course, be regarded by it as a more or less happy fiction. Even the clever work of Donnelly, already mentioned, is put aside, notwithstanding that its statements are all confined within a frame of strictly scientific proofs. But we write for the future. Discoveries in this direction will vindicate the claims of the Asiatic philosophers, who maintain that Sciences - Geology, Ethnology, and History included -were pursued by the Antediluvian nations who lived an untold number of ages ago. Future finds will justify the correctness of the present observations of such acute minds as H. A. Taine and Renan." S D II 333-4 RACIAL CHANGES, SUB-RACE CYCLES OF 25,000 YEARS "Since the beginning of the Atlantean Race many million years have passed, yet we find the last of the Atlanteans, still mixed up with the Aryan element, 11,000 years ago. This shows the enormous overlapping of one race over the race which succeeds it, though in character and external type the elder loses its characteristics, and assumes the new features of the younge= r race. This is proved in all the formations of mixed human races. Now, Occul= t philosophy teaches that even now, under our very eyes, the new Race and Races are preparing to be formed, and that it is in America that the transformation will take place, and has already silently commenced.=20 Pure Anglo-Saxons hardly three hundred years ago, the Americans of the United States have already become a nation apart, and, owing to a strong admixture of various nationalities and inter-marriage, almost a race sui generis, not only mentally, but also physically...=20 Thus the Americans have become in only three centuries a "primary race," pr= o tem., before becoming a race apart, and strongly separated from all other now existing races. They are, in short, the germs of the Sixth sub-race, an= d in some few hundred years more, will become most decidedly the pioneers of that race which must succeed to the present European or fifth sub-race, in all its new characteristics.=20 After this, in about 25,000 years, they will launch into preparations for the seventh sub-race; until, in consequence of cataclysms - the first serie= s of those which must one day destroy Europe, and still later the whole Aryan race (and thus affect both Americas), as also most of the lands directly connected with the confines of our continent and isles - the Sixth Root-Rac= e will have appeared on the stage of our Round...Then, as they increase, and their numbers become with every age greater, one day they will awake to fin= d themselves in a majority. It is the present men who will then begin to be regarded as exceptional mongrels, until these die out in their turn in civilised lands; surviving only in small groups on islands - the mountain peaks of to-day - where they will vegetate, degenerate, and finally die out= , perhaps millions of years hence... The Fifth will overlap the Sixth Race for many hundreds of millenniums, changing with it slower than its new successor, still changing in stature, general physique, and mentality, just as the Fourth overlapped our Aryan race, and the Third had overlapped the Atlanteans...But the last remnants o= f the Fifth Continent will not disappear until some time after the birth of the new Race; when another and new dwelling, the sixth continent, will have appeared above the new waters on the face of the globe, so as to receive th= e new stranger."=20=09 To it also will emigrate and settle all those who shall be fortunate enough to escape the general disaster. When this shall be - as just said - it is not for the writer to know." S D II 444=20=09 OUR FUTURE AS NEW RACE BODIES DEVELOP. "Only, as nature no more proceeds by sudden jumps and starts, than man changes suddenly from a child into a mature man, the final cataclysm will b= e preceded by many smaller submersions and destructions both by wave and volcanic fires... Yet the Fifth will not die, but survive for a while: overlapping the new Race for many hundred thousands of years to come, it will become transformed with it - slower than its new successor - still getting entirely altered in mentality, general physique, and stature.=20 Mankind will not grow again into giant bodies as in the case of the Lemurians and the Atlanteans; because while the evolution of the Fourth rac= e led the latter down to the very bottom of materiality in its physical development, the present Race is on its ascending arc; and the Sixth will b= e rapidly growing out of its bonds of matter, and even of flesh.=20 Thus it is the mankind of the New world... whose mission and Karma it is, t= o sow the seeds for a forthcoming, grander, and far more glorious Race than any of those we know of at present.=20 The Cycles of Matter will be succeeded by Cycles of Spirituality and a full= y developed mind. On the law of parallel history and races, the majority of the future mankind will be composed of glorious Adepts.=20 Humanity is the child of cyclic Destiny, and not one of its Units can escap= e its unconscious mission, or get rid of the burden of its co-operative work with nature. Thus will mankind, race after race, perform its appointed cycle-pilgrimage. Climates will, and have already begun, to change, each tropical year after the other dropping one sub-race, but only to beget another higher race on the ascending cycle; while a series of other less favoured groups - the failures of nature - will, like some individual men, vanish from the human family without even leaving a trace behind.=20 Such is the course of Nature under the sway of KARMIC LAW: of the ever present and the ever-becoming Nature. For, in the words of a Sage, known only to a few Occultists:- "The present is the child of the past; the future, the begotten of the present. and yet, O present moment! Knowest thou not that thou hast no parent, nor canst thou have a child; that thou art ever begetting but thyself? Before thou hast even begun to say 'I am th= e progeny of the departed moment, the child of the past,' thou hast become that past itself. Before thou utterest the last syllable, behold! thou art no more the present but verily that future. thus, are the past, the present= , and the future, the ever-living trinity in one - the mahamaya of the absolute is." S D II 444-6 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I hope this may help. Best wishes, Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Reed Carson [mailto:reed3@blavatsky.net]=20 Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 9:30 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] RE: Atlantis - the Culprit Peter, I would say that the point you are getting at is of considerable importance= =20 to Theosophists. But I would not draw the line where you appear to be=20 considering for its drawing. HPB will constantly refer to karma as the cause of the Atlantean=20 disaster. Effectively Plato does the same. Yet I have portrayed a very=20 physical explanation. Interestingly Cataclysm has pointedly made a very brief statement once=20 maybe twice to indicate there was no metaphysical causation, just purely=20 mechanical laws at work. (Jerome has pointed this out in AT years=20 ago. Don't know if he remembers.) Obviously the authors included this=20 statement just to contradict the many sources from the spiritual field that= =20 pointed to karma. Obviously this is a point where Theosophy and the purely= =20 mechanical view diverge. But how to carefully delineate the exact point of divergence is a subtle=20 matter. For example, I don't think one would like to say that planetary spirits=20 moved the erratics. I would say we should not put aside the laws of=20 physics in this manner. Similarly, I don't think one should, as you appear to me to be suggesting,= =20 say that planetary spirits moved the poles. Same reason as above. CUT From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Aug 03 06:48:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52650 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2004 13:48:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2004 13:48:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2004 13:48:39 -0000 Received: from pool-141-150-10-232.mad.east.verizon.net ([141.150.10.232] helo=sprynet.com) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BrzeV-0002JZ-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 03 Aug 2004 06:48:27 -0700 Message-ID: <410F97B1.4010206@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:48:33 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <76.3ef482f9.2e4062c2@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <76.3ef482f9.2e4062c2@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.48 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Drpsionic@aol.com wrote: > << > Whew! When I first read that I thought you wrote BART-wurst. > >> > > Gods no! He'd have to be marinated forever! Which means that, unless I get started yesterday, you'll never get to eat me. Bart From raghu_k@alfinance.com Tue Aug 03 08:02:12 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79789 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2004 15:02:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2004 15:02:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alfinance.com) (202.91.64.210) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2004 15:02:02 -0000 Received: from itrwte01 ([172.16.8.21]) by alfinance.com (alfinance.com [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v7.0.1.R) with ESMTP id md50000411042.msg for ; Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:29:52 +0530 To: Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 19:28:55 +0530 Message-ID: <000001c47962$06486460$150810ac@ALFITR01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002a01c47957$795c6330$0e0cf4d8@DALLAS> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Processed: alfinance.com, Tue, 03 Aug 2004 19:29:52 +0530 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 172.16.8.21 X-Return-Path: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.91.64.210 From: "Raghu K" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: Vegetarianism & Religions ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=155869969 Dallas This is not for advocating vegetarianism - but a campaign for preventing cruelty to animals - other atmas, which are very much, created by God, and are meant to be. Regards Raghu -----Original Message----- From: Dallas TenBroeck [mailto:dalval14@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 6:13 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World RE: Vegetarianism & Religions ! Aug 3 2004 Dear Friend: QUESTION; Why vegetarianism? BRIEF ANSWER 1. As I understand it because it is a benevolence due to the animal kingdom and the level of intelligence those forms represent. 2. The whole of Nature (the Universe in toto) exhibits a continual improvement in the quality of material and other forms used by Intelligence. 3. It is posited in THEOSOPHY that every Unit of Consciousness -- (The atom-life, or "monad") -- each is an immortal Pilgrim -- struggling through an enormous period of time to eventually become a "human THINKER," (this is the freedom to think and act of itself as a unit) and then (a deva) or "God" -- a "super-human" (in mind, and in spiritual perception and action) -- as acquiring (through self-effort) the wisdom of universal-self-consciousness. 4. Human diet does not need animals as food to maintain itself. REFERENCES 1 ABOUT KILLING ANIMALS A correspondent asks: Will you kindly explain why, if you think it wrong to kill a water bug, that you should consider it right to slay larger animals for food? I do not remember having said it was wrong to kill a water bug: hence there is no conclusion to be made from that to the question of feeding on animals, so far as I am concerned. The questions of right and wrong are somewhat mixed on this subject. If one says it is morally wrong to kill a water bug, then it follows that it is wrong to live at all, inasmuch as in the air we breathe and the water imbibed there are many millions of animals in structure more complicated than bugs. Though these are called infusoria and animalculae, yet they are living, moving beings as much as are bugs. We draw them in and at once they are destroyed, slain to the last one. Shall we therefore stop living? The whole of life is a battle, a destruction and a compromise as long as we are on the material plane. As human beings we have to keep on living, while in our destructive path millions of beings are hourly put to death. Even by living and earning a living each one of us is preventing some one else from doing the same, who, if we were dead, might step into our shoes. But if we abandoned the fight - were we, indeed, able to so do - then the ends of evolution could not be attained. Hence we have to stay and endure what Karma falls from the necessary deaths we occasion. So the true position seems to me to be this, that in certain environments, at certain stages of evolution, we have to do an amount of injury to others that we cannot avoid. So while we thus live we must eat, some of flesh and others of the vegetable. Neither class is wholly right or wrong. It becomes a wrong when we deliberately without actual need destroy the lives of animals or insects. So the man who was born in a family and generation of meat-eaters and eats the meat of slaughtered animals does less wrong than the woman who, though a vegetarian, wears the feathers of slaughtered birds in her hats, since it was not necessary to her life that such decoration should be indulged in. So the epicure who tickles his palate with many dishes of meats not necessary for sustentation is in the same case as the woman who wears bird's feathers. Again as to shoes, saddles, bridles, pocketbooks, and what not, of leather. These are all procured from the skins of slain animals. Shall they be abolished? Are the users of them in the wrong? Any one can answer. Or did we live near the north pole we would be compelled to live on bears' and wolves' meat and fat. Man, like all material beings, lives at the expense of some others. Even our death is brought about by the defeat of one party of microbes who are devoured by the others, who then themselves turn round and devour each other. But the real man is a spirit-mind, not destructible nor destroying; and the kingdom of heaven is not of meat nor of drink: it cometh not from eating nor refraining- it cometh of itself. - ED Path, March, 1892 ----------------------------------------------------------- 2 SPIRIT - SOUL - BODY-FORM "...the "Spirit," or the divine portion of the soul is pre-existent as a distinct being from all eternity."...Both the human Spirit (or the Individuality), the re-incarnating Spiritual Ego, and Buddhi, the Spiritual Soul, are pre-existent. But, while the former exists as a distinct entity, an individualization, the soul exists as pre-existing breath, an unscient portion of an intelligent whole. Both were originally formed from the Eternal Ocean of light, but as the Fire-Philosophers... expressed it, there is a visible as well as invisible spirit in fire." Key 105-6 NEPHESH - Animal "Soul" "...(animals)...These are no less than man, informed with the same principle of sentient life, the nephesh of the 2nd chapter of Genesis. The Soul is by no means the Mind, nor can an idiot, bereft of the latter, be called a "soul-less" being..." HPB Articles II 18 "...(the) animal soul (Nephesh of the Hebrew Kabalist)...the ray which emanates from the Higher Manas or permanent EGO, and is that "principle" which forms the human mind--in animals instinct." Transactions. 59 "...man has one "principle" more than the tiniest insect, but because man is a perfected animal, the vehicle of a fully developed monad, self-conscious and deliberately following its own line of progress, whereas in the insect, and even the higher animal, the higher triad of principles is absolutely dormant." Trans. 14-15 "A dog that has to exercise its own sagacity to find food, will sooner develop psychical powers in that direction, than one that does nothing but eat and sleep, and the individual or differentiated monad of the former will sooner reach the condition necessary to enter the human kingdom. The rudiments of hope, patience, faith, fidelity, confidence, etc., are found in the animal kingdom." -- HPB Theosophist 5- p. 223 "The difference between animals and men is this: the former are ensouled by the "principles" potentially, the latter actually." Key 104 MAN'S FORM IS AN ANIMAL "Man...in his outward form, simply an animal, hardly more perfect than his pithecoid-like ancestor of the 3rd Round. He is a living body, not a living being, since the realization of existence, the "Ego-Sum," necessitates self-consciousness, and an animal can only have direct consciousness, or instinct. The soul, whose body vehicle is the Astral, ethereo-substantial envelope, could die, and man be still living on earth--i.e., the soul could free itself from and quit the tabernacle for various reasons--such as insanity, spiritual and physical depravity, etc. Therefore that which living men (Initiates) can do, the Dhyanis, who have no physical body to hamper them, can do still better." SD I 134-5 MAN'S FORM -- VEHICLE OF A MONAD "...man is a perfected animal, the vehicle of a fully developed monad, self-conscious and deliberately following its own line of progress, whereas in the insect, and even the higher animal, the higher triad of principles is absolutely dormant." Trans. 14-15 LIGHTING UP OF THE MANAS (MIND) "Having passed through all the kingdoms of nature in the previous three Rounds, his physical frame--one adapted to the thermal conditions of those early periods--was ready to receive the divine Pilgrim at the first dawn of human life, i.e., 18,000,000 years ago. It is only at the mid-point of the 3rd Root-Race that man was endowed with Manas. Once united the two and then the three made one; for though the lower animals, from the amoeba to man, received their monads, in which all the higher qualities are potential, all have to remain dormant till each reaches its human form, before which stage manas (mind) has no development in them. In the animals every principle is paralyzed, and in a fetus-like state, save the 2nd (vital) and the 3rd (the astral), and the rudiments of the 4th (Kama, which is desire, instinct) whose intensity and development varies and changes with the species." S D II 254-5 "Atma-Buddhi [ Monad ] is dual and Manas is triple; inasmuch as the former has two aspects, and the latter three, i.e., as a principle per se, which gravitates, in its higher aspect, to Atma-Buddhi, and follows, in its lower nature, Kama, the seat of terrestrial divisions awakening to intelligence; and the third and last decidedly animal: i.e., Manas succumbs to the temptations of Kama." Men are made complete only during their third, toward the fourth cycle (race). They are made "gods" for good or evil, and responsible only when the two arcs meet (after 3 1/2 Rounds towards the fifth Race). They are made so by the Nirmanakaya (spiritual or astral remains) of the Rudra-Kumaras, "cursed to be reborn on earth again; meaning doomed in their natural turn to reincarnation in the higher ascending arc of the terrestrial cycle." SD II 254-5fn KAMA - CENTER OF THE ANIMAL MAN "...(d) Kama rupa -- The seat of animal desires and passions. -- This is the center of the animal man, where lies the line of demarcation which separates the mortal man from the immortal entity." Key 91 HIGHER AND LOWER MIND DEFINED " [ Plato teaches ] ... "when the Soul, psuche, "allies herself to the Nous (divine spirit or substance), she does everything aright and felicitously;" but the case is otherwise when she attaches herself to Anoia, (folly, or the irrational animal Soul). Here, then, we have Manas (or the Soul in general) in its two aspects: when attaching itself to Anoia (our Kama rupa, or the "Animal Soul" in "Esoteric Buddhism," runs towards entire annihilation, as far as the personal Ego is concerned; when allying itself to the Nous (Atma-Buddhi) it merges into the immortal, imperishable Ego, and then its spiritual consciousness of the personal that was, becomes immortal." Key 93 ANIMALS REINCARNATE [ Animals ] "...they do reincarnate, but that which from them goes forth to reincarnation is not similar to the reincarnating principle of the human being. Were we to suppose that the monads now going through the present animal life were reincarnating in a haphazard way, then surely law disappears our philosophy tumbles to the ground, and a reign of terror in the scheme of evolution ensues." WQJ Art II 486 "In calling the animal "Soulless," it is not depriving the beast, from the humblest to the highest species, of a "soul." but only of a conscious surviving Ego-soul, i.e., that principle which survives after a man, and reincarnates like a man. The animal has an astral body, that survives the physical body for a short period; but its (animal) Monad does not reincarnate in the same, but in a higher species, and has no "Devachan" of course. It has the seeds of all the human principles in itself, but they are latent." S D II 196fn KARMA OF ANIMALS "Animals have Karma, or consequence of act, but they have not man's responsibility. While they seem to suffer and enjoy, it is all without any self-consciousness, and hence is less in itself and less lasting in effect. Their karma is bound up with man; and he is the responsible one and will have to bear the responsibility, although they feel the burden directly." WQJ Art II 566 "...the effect of Karma upon the animals... the whole of creation waits upon man and groans that he keeps back the enlightenment of all. What happens when...you crush out the life of a common croton bug ? Well, it is destroyed and you forget it. But you brought it to an untimely end, short though its life would have been. Imagine this being done at hundreds and thousands of places...Each of these little creatures had life, and energy; each some degree of intelligence, The sum total of effects of all these deaths of small things must be appreciable. If not, then our doctrines are wrong and there is no wrong in putting our the life of a human being ... [animals] killed for sport..." WQJ Art I 14-5 "The brutes unconsciously are aware of the general human opposition, which in each human being they see focalized." WQJ Letters 87 ANIMAL MONADS -- EVOLUTION AND PROGRESS "While it is stated that no more animal monads can enter on the man-stage, it is not said nor inferred that the incoming supply of monads for the animal kingdom has stopped. They may still be coming in from other "worlds" for evolution among the animals of this globe...It is quite possible also that the animal monads may be carried on to other members of the earth-chain in advance of man for the purpose of necessary development, and this would lessen the number of their appearances here...the animals, however, being devoid of developed Manas, have no Devachan and must be forced onwards to the next planet in the chain...as it gives them a chance for development in readiness for the time when the monads of that kingdom shall begin to rise to a new human kingdom. They have lost nothing, but, on the contrary, will be the gainers." WQJ Art I 103 WHAT IS A "MONAD" ? "...a Monad [ Atma-Buddhi ] cannot either progress or develop, or even be affected by the change of states it passes through. It is not on this world or plane, and may be compared only to an indestructible star of divine light and fire, thrown down on to our (175fn) Earth as a plank of salvation for the personalities in which it indwells. It is for the latter to cling to it; and thus partaking of its divine nature, obtain immortality. Left to itself the Monad will cling to no one; but, like the "plank," be drifted away to another incarnation by the unresisting current of evolution...the evolution of the external form or body round the astral is produced by the terrestrial forces, just as in the case of the lower kingdoms; but the evolution of the internal or real MAN is purely spiritual. It is now no more a passage of the impersonal Monad through many and various forms of matter--endowed at best with instinct and consciousness on quite a different plane--as in the case of external evolution, but a journey of the "pilgrim-soul" through various states of not only matter but self consciousness and self-perception, or perception from apperception." S D I 174-5fn MONAD -- A CONCRETE MANIFESTATION OF THE UNIVERSAL ENERGY AT A PARTICULAR LEVEL OF EVOLUTION "...the Monadic, or rather Cosmic, Essence...in the mineral, vegetable and animal, though the same throughout the series of cycles from the lowest elemental up to the Deva Kingdom, yet differs in the scale of progression ...the more correct phraseology...would have been to call it "the Monad manifesting in that form of Prakriti called the Mineral Kingdom." The atom as represented in the ordinary scientific hypothesis, is not a particle of something, animated by a psychic something, destined after aeons to blossom as a man. But it is a concrete manifestation of the Universal Energy which itself has not yet become individualized; a sequential manifestation of the one Universal Monas. The ocean (of matter) the life-impulse reaches the evolutionary stage of man-birth. The tendency towards segregation into individual Monads is gradual, and is the higher animals comes almost to the point." S D I 178 "...it is our Dhyan-Chohanic essence--the causality of the primal cause which creates physical man--which is the living, active and potential matter, pregnant per se with that animal consciousness of a superior kind, such as is found in the ant or the beaver, which produces the long series of physiological differentiations...every type in the visible has its prototype in the invisible Universe..." S D II 120 SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS AND THE ABYSS BETWEEN PSYCHIC AND NOETIC "...Self-consciousness belongs alone to man and proceeds from the SELF, the higher Manas. Only, whereas the psychic element (or Kama-manas) is common to both the animal and the human being--the far higher degree of its development in the latter resting merely on the greater perfection and sensitiveness of his cerebral cells--no physiologist...will ever be able to solve the mystery of the human mind, in its highest spiritual manifestation, or in its dual aspect of the psychic and the noetic (or the manasic)...he would have to admit a lower (animal), and a higher (or divine) mind in man, or what is known in Occultism as the "personal" and the "impersonal" (10) Egos. For, between the psychic and the noetic, between the personality and the individuality, there exists the same abyss as between a "Jack the Ripper," and a holy Buddha." HPB Art II 9-10 "Between man and animal--whose Monads (or Jivas) are fundamentally identical--there is the impassable abyss of Mentality and Self-consciousness. What is human mind in it higher aspect, whence comes it, if it is not a portion of the essence--and, in some rare cases of incarnation, the very essence--of a higher Being: one from a higher and divine plane? Can man--a god in the animal form--be the product of Material Nature by evolution alone. even as is the animal, which differs from man in external shape, but by no means in the materials of its physical fabric, and is informed by the same, though undeveloped, Monad--seeing that the intellectual potentialities of the two differ as the Sun does from the Glow-worm ? And what is it that creates such a difference, unless man is an animal plus a living god within his physical shell ?" S D II 81 ============================== I hope this explains that which is asked about, Best wishes, Dallas ===================================== -----Original Message----- From: Raghu K Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 2:32 AM To: Subject: Vegetarianism & Religions ! Cream StationeryHi As a brahmin, I am not supposed to harm anyone - so preaches my religion / Bhagvad Gita. Whenever I feel someone is hurt, I feel guilty. The Buddhists and Jains go a step further - They tie a cloth around their mouth and sweep the floor before they walk so that any insect may be wiped out lest they trample them. But, take the case of a butcher. His business is killing & selling meat. He does not feel guilty of the act. Well, they even say that Jesus had fish with his disciples in his 'last supper'. Prophet Mohamed opined that goats and chickens were produced by God for humans to consume happily and killing them after praying God is not wrong. Some opine that even plants have a life and plucking vegetables will harm / hurt the plants, as much as killing a goat / hen / fish !!! Is it not wrong to harm other souls, humans or otherwise ? If yes, why are religions (Christianity / Islam) not disallowing the same ? In Hinduism, vegetarianism is advocated not only to keep your system healthy (Vegetarian foods are easily digestable & you acquire good traits by being vegetarian, wheras non vegetarian foods kindly rakshas traits in you, so they say), but also to refrain you from harming other souls. Is there any justification in killing these creatures for filling up our stomach and feed the taste buds of our tongue and gullet ? We talk of hundreds of thousands of jews, killed by Hitler and millions of kurds, killed by Saddam Hussain. Who has the nerve to talk about these voiceless creatures ? I feel every atma has a right to live - not just humans ! If someone can kill some atma, in the name of God, he is as much a saddam / Hitler. I feel Religions are conveniently biased towards Humans alone. A sad news is that brahmins in orissa and West Bengal states of India take eggs and fish, saying that they are vegetarian !!! If this norm of vegetarianism cannot be implemented strongly by religions, well, then, all norms of living can be abolished so that people can live a casual life, free of guilt / shame and inferiority complex. As you know, inferiority complex is an epidemic (psychological) that spreads to other persons easily. Atleast people can live with a good self esteem - may be, v will track back to stone age. But then, that's how it is !!! Welcome comments / criticisms. Regards Raghu Yahoo! Groups Links From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Aug 03 09:33:20 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46523 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2004 16:33:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2004 16:33:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2004 16:33:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.168] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2004 16:32:09 -0000 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 16:32:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000c01c471cf$b63c7180$a66a013d@k> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2635 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.64 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Anand Gholap has put online various books by C.W. Leadbeater and Annie Besant X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Anand Gholap has put online various books=20 by C.W. Leadbeater and Annie Besant. I list the 18 books BELOW and give the URLs. The links are long and may not work in this posting to Theos-Talk. It is good to have online especially=20 How Theosophy Came To Me by C. W. Leadbeater You can access this book also at: http://tinylink.com/?l5DL4sTyOu=20 K.H.Letters to C.W.Leadbeater You can access this book also at: http://tinylink.com/?WgnXZ8jz3G=20 Daniel http: