From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Jul 01 00:03:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62585 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 07:03:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 07:03:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 07:03:59 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.8a.ea8e16f (3964) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:03:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8a.ea8e16f.2e151156@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:03:50 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.5 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Other Evidence to Refute Leon's contention X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Daniel, I think we are mixing apples and oranges when we compare the manifestation of simple substances like base metals, non living carbonaceous substances like paper along with the writing on it, or simple plaster -- with more complex structures like glazed and painted porcelain of particular design, or manufactured items like computers (that began this commentary in the first place). The concept of a light manipulated hologram was just proposed as one possibility of a manifestation of a physical form, and did not preclude other methods of so called "materialization's" -- such as actual disassembly and reassembly of material particles that make up a simple form, precipitation of writing on existing or manifested paper of temporary or permanent form -- depending on the method of precipitation or assembly, etc. Such phenomena can be done by many different methods of correlation and manipulation of coenergetic forces on or through multiple levels of hyperspace. My interest, primarily, is not in whether of not such phenomena is real or possible, but what are the methods and correlation of forces that are necessary to make them occur -- regardless of the techniques used or the path taken to form the objects. In any event, I have no arguments against the ability of an Adept to carry out such phenomena under certain conditions and limitations -- which I'm not prepared to argue about in the face of your quoting of observers statements that cannot be verified as to their veracity or accuracy, or generalized statements by respected teachers such as HPB and the Masters that are misleading since they do not thoroughly explain that there are certain qualifications and conditions that make it impossible to carry out such phenomena with particular forms or complexities of matter. Thus, it is certainly reasonable to have doubts that the highest trained Adept could disassemble an automobile or a computer and reassemble them, in their functional entirety, in another location in physical space (or even the same location). It is also reasonable to doubt that such objects, or even their disassembled parts could pass through certain types of walls. (Although, passing through a wall of water or a wall of flowing air would not be much trouble.:-) As for the statements of HPB regarding such phenomena as "passing matter through matter," or dematerializing and rematerializing certain physical forms -- I still contend that the qualifications and conditions under which such acts can occur are quite limited and do not cover every form of inorganic matter of a more complex chemical or structural nature, and certainly not organic or living matter. (However it certainly would be easy to pass astral matter through physical matter -- which is one way of looking at what HPB said. :-) The blanket assertion, based on by qualified comments, that I am not a true believer in theosophy (referring to one of your previous letters) is a gross misinterpretation of my negative comments or doubts -- which referred to particular cases of witnessed and reported phenomena -- that to me has little credibility. What you believe about it is strictly your own choice, and has nothing to do with the phenomena itself which could be any kind of staged trick or actual manipulation of matter by one process or another -- including light in the case of a hologram, or if a strictly superficial form of precipitated particles that, like a movie set wall, or an empty egg shell, has nothing within or behind it. So, in the case of the cup and saucer, I'm willing to accept that a real cup and saucer was found buried in the ground, but, until proven otherwise (by a direct demonstration of a similar manifestation) doubt that it was projected there by HPB using occult methods of disassociation, teleportation and reallocation of material particles, etc... Nothing that you or HPB might say to the contrary notwithstanding. As I intimated in a previous post, I don't have to apologize to anyone for not believing anything I read or hear about from other people -- whether they have direct witnessed knowledge or not -- unless I've also experienced the same phenomena myself. Again, this is not to say that I disbelieve in the actual occult ability to produce such phenomena under the proper conditions and circumstances. In any event, methinks you take HPB and your personal interpretations of her pontifications far too seriously. I think, if she saw how you harangue people who disagree with your view of theosophy as well as worship her absolute sainthood and hang on her every word as being literal truth, she would get just as much a kick out of pulling your chain as I do. :-) Does that now make me not such a theosophical "fundamentalist" as some might have thought, previously, that I was? Although I'm still a staunch ULT booster, and think that both HPB and WQJ, fun loving mavericks that they were (or at least she was), are birds of my own feathers. As for their occult metaphysical teaching, I believe entirely in its validity -- but only as I read about it directly between their lines and around their words with my third eye, and test it with my intuition tempered by my reason. (More notes below in your letter.) In a message dated 06/27/04 2:40:13 PM, danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com writes: >Leon's original contention is as follows: > > > >================================================== > >It may be possible to > >bend light by the powers of mind and will, and > >project a visualized image of an object to appear > >as a hologram -- which could be taken for the > >real thing. I seriously doubt that anyone, > >including those on the level of a Master > >occultist, could actually manifest a physical > >cup that someone can drink out of, or > >dematerialize such a cup and re-materialize > >it at a remote location.... > > > >If you carefully read "all" the writings of > >HPB (as I have) you will find that she has consistently > >denied such possibilities.... Maybe I should substitute "studied intuitively between the lines and around the words" for "carefully read" And add after "possibilities...." -- "in certain cases" >================================================= > > > >Instead of a cup, what about a note or a piece of > >plaster??????? Maybe. All depends on what kind of note, what it's made of, and what kind of plaster and who found it, how it was delivered, etc. And, it would also depend on if I believed the story if I was told all about it in scientifically verifiable detail that I could personally reproduce and witness for myself. As I said before, I do not believe everything that anyone tells me about what they have witnessed -- just because they say it and set themselves forth as some sort of authority. >Below is another case that refutes > >Leon's contention unless he wants to > >side with Bart and say all of this was > >a fraud. I wish you would talk to me directly and stop referring to me in the third person as if you were making a speech or posting a manifesto. :-) There's no question about my siding with anyone -- since I always think for myself and base my conclusions upon what I know to be reality in the light of fundamental principles coupled with intuitive knowledge that is consistent with reason. >In this case we have a note from Master Morya > >to Sinnett. According to the occult theory, > >this was materialized. The note is now in > >the British Museum, so it must be a pretty > >permanent "hologram"! See facsimile of this > >note in the first URL below. What occult theory? Prove it wasn't forged or delivered by hand, or reproduce it in front of my eyes, and maybe I'll believe it might have been manifested by occult means. Although I also can't say that it wasn't, I don't have to believe it just because you or anyone else says it was so. >Furthemore, we have a piece of plaster which > >apparently was dematerialized in Bombay and > >rematerialized in Allahabad. Blavatsky was > >in Bombay and Sinett was at his home in > >Allahabad. We have nothing but what you have heard second hand. That's no reason to believe it actually happened that way, or was just another cooked up or misconstrued story. >No doubt, Bart sees a fraud here but I am > >presently dealing ONLY with Leon's contention. My contention doesn't affirm or deny the occurrence happened as the alleged witnesses said it did -- but simply to keep an open mind with respect to all possibilities and probabilities, based on my own direct knowledge and experience of occult metaphysical, psychical, and physical processes. >See the Master's note at: > >"A Note from Mahatma Morya to A.P. Sinnett" > >http://blavatskyarchives.com/Mahmorya5.htm > >http://theosophy.info/Mahmorya5.htm What kind of proof of anything is that? >And the narrative of the phenomenon is found at: > > > >"The Piece of Plaster Plaque Phenomenon" > >http://blavatskyarchives.com/sinnettdeposition.htm#plaster > >http://theosophy.info/sinnettdeposition.htm#plaster Interesting... But, so what? If I didn't already know from a metaphysical and scientific point of view, as well as personal experience, that such phenomena is possible, this alone wouldn't convince me of the reality of this occurrence as a true occult phenomena. >Concerning the note from Mahatma M. found in a telegram, > >CONSIDER also Master K.H.'s words when he writes about the > >"process used by us when we write inside your closed letters and > >uncut pages of books and pamphlets in transit." p. 263 in first > >three editions of THE MAHATMA LETTERS. Even though I have had a number of out of body experiences myself, including an after death experience, as well as studied the metaphysical science from a spiritual and physical standpoint that make such things possible and even probable. I still cannot unequivocably accept any of the above as sufficient evidence to prove the occurance of the specific phenomena discussed, or the method used if such phenomena did occur. But, that doesn't stop you or anyone else from believing what you will about it. Leon >Daniel Caldwell > >http://hpb.cc > >http://theosophy.info > > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Jul 01 00:17:58 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53401 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 07:17:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 07:17:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 07:17:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.140] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2004 07:17:44 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 07:17:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1689 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.82 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: What does the Amazing James Randi think of Blavatsky & Theosophy? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell What does the Amazing James Randi think of Blavatsky & Theosophy? See: http://tinyurl.com/2nkjf Notice some of his statements: ==================================================== she contacted the "mahatmas,'' adepts who lived in caves and taught her the mysteries she was to subsequently teach. All these tales are highly doubtful. ======================================================= LIVED IN CAVES???? ===================================================== ...she eventually was employed by the spirit medium Daniel Dunglas Home as an assistant, where she doubtless learned some of the "tricks of the trade.'' ========================================================= In India, HPB flourished as a cult figure for several years, until a housekeeper who had formerly worked as a magician's assistant exposed the tricks by which Blavatsky had been fooling her followers. =========================================================== the housekeeper "had formerly worked as a magician's assistant"????? NEVER HEARD OF THIS CLAIM BEFORE!!! =========================================================== ....it was revealed that she had deceived a disciple by hiring an actor wearing a dummy bearded head and flowing costume, to impersonate the mahatma Koot Hoomi. ======================================================== So does Bart also believe this about impersonating KH???? ======================================================== Madame Blavatsky wrote several mystical books, among them Isis Unveiled (1877), which was shown to have been copied from previous works of other authors.... ============================================================ From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Jul 01 00:25:19 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 43526 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 07:25:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 07:25:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m25.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.6) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 07:25:19 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.1d8.255b1dc6 (3964) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1d8.255b1dc6.2e151650@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:25:04 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.6 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World My Latest Reply to some of Leon's Comments on occult phenomena X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Daniel, It's really quite pointless (for me) to discuss theosophical concepts with anyone who blindly accepts everything written about it by its promulgators as being absolutely true -- since it comes from the mouth of supposed authorities, or people one accepts as such... A method of learning that HPB said was an improper way to approach theosophy -- which should be taken with a grain of salt, or as a theory only, and questioned thoroughly, until one has subjectively proven it to one's own satisfaction through serious and protracted self devised and self determined study and practice. It's a fact that HPB never claimed to be an authority and said that students should never accept anything she said or assertions she made, as more than a theory to be studied and, through one's own intuition and reasoning, proven for oneself. Many of the statements of HPB in the Secret Doctrine and in much of her articles on theosophy, have subtleties of meanings, including qualifications and conditions, that go far deeper for the "intuitive student" than is apparent to the ordinary reader on their surface. In some cases a method of psychological suggestion is used, obvious to the intuitive or initiated reader, that is designed to convince the unintuitive or uninitiated of the validity of the occult teaching without actually exposing its underlying mechanisms -- which may be dangerous for them to know. Incidentally, I was initiated into the mysteries of occultism at a very early age by my alchemist-freemason father, and came to the Secret Doctrine at a distinct advantage over the ordinary student with no such background. My first teaching in occult study (which was later contradicted by my science teachers :-) was to never accept anything I read as being valid or true, no matter what the credentials or qualifications of the writer, until I can test it for myself using a number of techniques (not important to describe here). The second and third lessons were, "Never tell your left hand what your right hand is doing," and "Always tell the truth to imply a lie." (I'll leave it to HPB's "intuitive student" to figure out what those instructions mean, and how she followed them in constructing her blinds for the casual or non-initiated reader. :-) Therefore, to argue about the belief in (or not), or discuss the probability or actuality of psychic phenomena based on hearsay evidence and misinterpreted or qualified and conditional statements made by HPB and/or her Masters, is a total waste of time and effort -- which, on my part, is devoted to understanding the actual working of the occult processes from a scientific and metaphysical point of view -- without relying on the statements or opinions of anyone... Especially, those who base their convictions entirely on the written word, along with hearsay evidence of observed psychic phenomena by possibly gullible or prejudiced witnesses -- which as I said before, are notoriously unreliable. Such self satisfied or preconditioned people are too fixed in their ways to talk to rationally about the real basis of theosophical metaphysics, or about the actual processes that make possible psychic phenomena -- that requires, first, the examination and elimination of all opposing alternatives, and then, the construction of a feasible basis (with reference to the fundamental principles) upon which both the creation of the phenomena as well as the genesis of the Cosmos rests. As Einstein said, "To find the conditions that make something possible, one must first consider, examine and eliminate all conditions that make it impossible." He was a true occultist, BTW... And, probably, the messenger whose message HPB predicted would appear in 1975 -- the twentieth anniversary of his death... Which it did (if you read all the newspapers and news magazines of that time). "A word to the wise is sufficient" -- so said the Master Thoth-Hermes. So, please desist this continuing cross examination of my comments (some speculative, hypothetic or questioning) that are, in many cases, taken out of the context of my overall discussion -- which is generally based on principles of metaphysics and their scientific interpretations that you apparently do not comprehend the nuances of -- except indirectly through the mouths of your accepted authorities and your own personal interpretation of their words. Sometimes, these words have nuances and underlying subtleties of meanings, conditions and qualifications (as pointed out above and in my previous posts) that go far deeper than their dead letter forms indicate to the casual reader or researcher. For the record, let me repeat what I said before... Having started my study of theosophy as an agnostic, rather than a believer or disbeliever, I accept no statement of theosophical principles or teachings without first testing and proving to myself their validity through my own intuition tempered by my reason, and confirmed by my personal experience, hands on experiments, or direct observation -- unclouded by any biases that I didn't first thoroughly examine and subsequently clear from my mind. Therefore, I take it as my right and duty to question everything that any theosophical teacher might say -- including HPB as well as her alleged Masters -- without harassment from historical researchers who bombard me with their quotes... Which, for me, incidentally, have far different meanings than is apparent on their dead letter surface. That is not to say that my tentative conclusions cannot be wrong in some respects -- since, it's quite possible that I have missed some important facts along the way. I also, will be the first to admit my mistake if such facts are brought to my attention and proven to be so to my satisfaction. Therefore, it's wise to take any statement I may make or conclusion I reach with the same grain of salt you should take HPB's statements. So, if you think I am wrong, ask me upon what I base my conclusions, and after hearing them, if you know better, point out my error using logic and reason rather than the authority of others (whom I know or suspect are downgrading or obfuscating certain critical facts that only a true occultist might understand -- by implication or intuition coupled with direct experience). No personal implications or innuendoes intended, of course. ;-) Leon Maurer In a message dated 06/27/04 4:31:42 AM, danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com writes: >Leon, > > > >Thanks for your recent posting at: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/17089 > > > >I am still somewhat puzzled by some of your > >statements about materializations. > > > >In your original statement which I excerpted at: > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/17062 > > > >you make some categorical statements such as: > > > >================================================ > > > >I seriously doubt that anyone, > >including those on the level of a Master > >occultist, could actually manifest a physical > >cup that someone can drink out of, or > >dematerialize such a cup and re-materialize > >it at a remote location. > > > >================================================ > > > >You go on to assert: > > > >============================================ > > > >It therefore becomes quite evident that all > >this talk of actual teleportation of real objects > >and their dematerialization and materialization is > >just a lot of speculative whistling in the wind, > >and a waste of time... > > > >===================================================== > > > >And you tell your readers: > > > >====================================================== > > > >If you carefully read "all" the writings of > >HPB (as I have) you will find that she has consistently > >denied such possibilities.... > > > >===================================================== > > > >I made several observations and even quoted HPB > >on the subject. You have now replied to these > >in your posting at: > > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/17089 > > > >Before I reply to your specific comments, I want to > >give more primary source material that shows that > >both HPB and Master KH asserted that they were > >able to perform (to quote your words) "actual > >teleportation of real objects and their dematerialization and > >materialization." > > > >In THE OCCULT WORLD, A.P. Sinnett > >writes about the "Pillow Incident" that occured on > >Oct. 20, 1880. Note this specific comment by Sinnett: > > > >============================================================== > > > >...before starting for the hill, I had penned a few lines of thanks > >for the promise contained in the note then received as described. > >This note I gave to Madame Blavatsky, to despatch by occult > >methods if she had an opportunity. And she carried it in her > >hand as she and my wife went on in advance, in jampans, along the > >Simla Mall, not finding an opportunity until about halfway to our > >destination. Then she got rid of the note, occultism only knows how. > > > >================================================================ > > > >Regarding this note given by Sinnett to Blavatsky, Master KH > >wrote in a note later that same day: > > > >=============================================================== > > > >". . . your last note. . . was received in my room about half a > >minute after the [akasic] currents for the production of the pillow > >dak had been set ready and in full play." > > > >=============================================================== > > > >According to KH's own words, he was NOT in Simla at that time > >but in a Kashmir Valley. > > > >Thus the Master KH himself contradicts your statement which > >reads: > > > >============================================================== > > > >I seriously doubt that anyone, > >including those on the level of a Master > >occultist, could actually manifest a physical > >cup that someone can drink out of, or > >dematerialize such a cup and re-materialize > >it at a remote location. > > > >========================================================= > > > >Now in the incident I am quoting the physical note written by > >Sinnett (was according to KH) transported from Simla to KH's room. > > > >You may still choose to ignore or disbelieve his statement. That of > >course is your choice. > > > >Many more examples could be given including material from THE MAHATMA > >LETTERS TO A.P. SINNETT. > > > >One outstanding example is the Vega Incident. For some of the > >primary source documents on this teleportation, see: > > > >http://blavatskyarchives.com/eglinton1.htm > > > >http://blavatskyarchives.com/gordon3.htm > > > >http://blavatskyarchives.com/gordon4.htm > > > >Numerous other examples can be found in Geoffrey A. Barborka's > >book H.P. BLAVATSKY, TIBET AND TULKU. See, for example, Chapter > >XIII --- Writing by Precipitation, pp. 222-299. > > > >Also many examples in my own book THE ESOTERIC WORLD OF MADAME > >BLAVATSKY. Online edition at: > >http://theosophical.org/theosophy/books/esotericworld/index.html > > > >Moving on. > > > >Regarding your assertion about what HPB denies, below I give > >some quotes from one of HPB's letters to the Countess Wachtmeister: > > > >================================================================ > > > >I have to burn the letter with a stone I have (matches and common > >fire would never do), and the ashes caught by the current become more > >minute than atoms would be, and are re-materialized at any distance > >where Master was..... > > > >Think only (a case with Solovioff at Elberfeld) I sick > >in my bed; a letter of his, an old letter of his received in > >London and torn by me, rematerialised in my own sight, > >I looking at the thing; five or six times in the Russian language, > >in Mahatma K.H.'s handwriting in blue , the words taken from my head, > >the letter old and crumpled travelling slowly alone (even I could not > >see the astral hand of the chela performing the operation) across the > >bedroom, then slipping into and among Solovioff's papers who was > >writing in the little drawing-room, correcting my manuscripts; > >Olcott standing closely by him and having just handled the papers > >looking over them with Solovioff. The latter finding it, > >and like I flash I see in his head in Russian the thought: > >"The old impostor (meaning Olcott) must have put it there!".... > > > >Suppose a chela receives an order from his Master to precipitate a > >letter....Paper and envelope are materialized before him, and he has > >only to form and shape theideas into his English and precipitate them. > > > >================================================================== > > > >Elsewhere HP Blavatksy writes: > > > >================================================================= > > > >Here we approach a comprehension of what may have been the course of > >events as regards the production of the mysterious cup and saucer > >described in Mr. Sinnett's book. It is in no way inconceivable that > >if the production of manifestation in matter is the act accomplished > >by what is ordinarily called creation that the power of the human > >will in some of its transcendent developments may be enabled > >to impose on unmanifested matter or chaos, the change which brings it > >within the cognisance of the ordinary human senses. > >============================================================== > > > >Yet, Leon, apparently it is inconceivable to you..... > > > >And in light of what I just quoted from HPB, it should be pointed > >out that you have conceded that the cup and saucer was really > >physical. Therefore, what is the implication of HPB's words just > >quoted? > > > >Much more could be quoted from H.P. Blavatsky. > > > >Moving on. > > > >Let me now briefly look at your most recent replies and make a few > >additional comments. > > > >In light of your initial statement excerpted at > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/17062 > > > >I wrote: > > > >========================================================= > > > >So Leon, what are you telling us about the cup and saucer > >at the picnic? Are you saying that no real physical cup and > >saucer was ever dug up by Mr. Henderson? Are you telling > >us that what they thought was a real physical cup and saucer > >was ONLY a mental "hologram", a thought-form you might say? > > > >A clarification of this would be appreciated. > > > >============================================================ > > > >Now your clarification reads: > > > >============================================================ > > > >No, I said it could have been. But I doubt it in the present case, > >where a real cup was supposedly found, added to the set, and > >presumedly used to serve tea to the new guest who came on the scene. > > > >However, saying this reminds me that the real cup and saucer could > >have been lost years before (and the tree roots grown over and around > >it) by the owners who may have visited that spot earlier -- since it > >was near a Temple where many picnickers who lived nearby may have > >gone in the past. HPB, being clairvoyant, supposedly, could have > >then "found" the lost items in one of her "brown studies" or trance > >states. Of course I understand this is only a "possibility" > >like many of those arguments used by skeptics. > > > >=============================================================== > > > >I realize that you say "this is only a 'possibility' like many of > >those arguments used by skeptics." > > > >Nevertheless, I believe this argument of yours is as implausible as > >those skeptical arguments advanced by Bart. > > > >First of all, your "possibility" only confirms Hyman's statement that > >"it is always possible to 'imagine' some scenario....." > > > >Secondly, your "possibility" is not plausible in light of the > >testimonial evidence of both Sinnett and Olcott. > > > >Remember what Olcott wrote: > > > >=========================================================== > > > >================================================ > > > >He found the ground hard and full of small roots of a young cedar > >tree near by. These he cut through and pulled up to a depth of say 6 > >inches, when something white was seen in the black soil; it was dug > >out, and lo! a cup decorated in green and gold, exactly matching the > >others Mrs. Sinnett's servants had brought. > > > >=============================================== > > > >And Sinnett reported: > > > >============================================================== > > > >The cup and saucer both corresponded exactly, as > >regards their pattern, with those that had been > >brought to the picnic, and constituted a seventh > >cup and saucer when brought back to where we were > >to have breakfast. Afterwards, when we got home, my > >wife questioned our principal khitmutgar as to how > >many cups and saucers of that particular kind we > >possessed. In the progress of years, as the set was > >an old set, some had been broken, but the man at once > >said that nine teacups were left. When collected and > >counted that number was found to be right, without > >reckoning the excavated cup. That made ten, and as > >regards the pattern, it was one of a somewhat peculiar > >kind, bought a good many years previously in London, > >and which assuredly could never have been matched > >in Simla. > > > >============================================================== > > > >Therefore, in light of the testimonial evidence that the "cup and > >saucer both corresponded exactly, as regards their pattern, with > >those that had been brought to the picnic," how likely is it that > >your possibility is at all plausible? > > > >Remember you wrote: > > > >=================================================================== > > > >...the real cup and saucer could have been lost years before (and the > >tree roots grown over and around it) by the owners who may have > >visited that spot earlier -- since it was near a Temple where many > >picnickers who lived nearby may have gone in the past. HPB, being > >clairvoyant, supposedly, could have then "found" the lost items in > >one of her "brown studies" or trance states. > > > >================================================================== > > > >As far as I can tell, this possibility is as "silly" as one dreamed > >up by Steve Stubbs a year or so ago and just as "silly" as what Bart > >has suggested. > > > >Of course, nothing is firm and evidential when one wants to ignore > >the actual facts of the case and talk vaguely about possibly this or > >possibly that. > > > >Apparently not only extreme skeptics of the paranormal like Randi and > >Kurtz indulge in such speculation but even students of Theosophy and > >Blavatsky. Amazing!! > > > >Finally let me quote what HPB wrote several years later about the > >occult phenomena of this time period: > > > >============================================================== > > > >Never were the phenomena presented in any other character than that > >of instances of a power over perfectly natural though unrecognized > >forces, and incidentally over matter, possessed by certain > >individuals who have attained to a larger and higher knowledge of the > >Universe than has been reached by scientists and theologians, or can > >ever be reached by them, by the roads they are now respectively > >pursuing. Yet this power is latent in all men, and could, in time, be > >wielded by anyone who would cultivate the knowledge and conform to > >the conditions necessary for its development. > > > >================================================================= > > > >Notice her emphasis on "a power over perfectly natural though > >unrecognized forces, and incidentally over matter...." > > > >This confirms HPB's words quoted earlier which read: > > > >============================================================== > > > >... the power of the human will in some of its transcendent > >developments may be enabled to impose on unmanifested matter or > >chaos, the change which brings it within the cognisance of the > >ordinary human senses. > > > >============================================================== > > > >...the power of the human will ... may be enabled to impose on > >unmanifested matter.... > > > >This is 180 degrees different from Leon's contention which reads: > > > >=============================================================== > > > >That is, manipulating the mind of the viewer rather than the actual > >forces that make up the objects themselves..... > > > >================================================================= > > > >I advise students to go directly to Blavatsky's and the Masters' > >writings instead of depending on statements by students who claim to > >have read all of their writings. > > > >Daniel > >http://hpb.cc > >http://theosophy.info From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Jul 01 00:35:15 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22106 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 07:35:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 07:35:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m22.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.3) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 07:35:14 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.79.2d595661 (3964) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:35:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <79.2d595661.2e1518a9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:35:05 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.3 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20Theos-World=20another=20spiritist=B4s=20"pa?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ssage=20of=20matter=20through=20matte=20r"?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 06/29/04 6:50:08 AM, krishtar_a@brturbo.com writes: >What about those early experiences made with highly talented mediums that >could carry a little device ( that could emit a beep sound and a little >transistor radio was also used ) through a solid wall and "rematerialize" >itself at the other side? What about those "early experiences"? How early? When and where? By whom? As a disbeliever in all "testimony" from unknown sources or unqualified=20 people, and a questioner of all statements of so called "occult" truths (in= cluding=20 those from the mouths of alleged or self professed Masters or Adepts) -- I'= d=20 certainly be interested in knowing who had those "experiences," under what= =20 circumstances, who performed them, who observed them, and where or in what= =20 scientific journal (or other jounal of experimental or psychic science) all= that was=20 reported? Without verifiable information that such an occurrence actually took place,= =20 and, if so, was thoroughly examined by qualified witnesses to eliminate all= =20 trickery -- all the following comments about the nature of such teleportati= on=20 processes utilizing "dematerialization" and "rematerialization" should be=20 considered as unfounded simplistic speculations or false reasoning about a= =20 "possibility" that might have no basis in scientifically sound metaphysical= reality --=20 as taught by HPB in the Secret Doctrine. (That is not to say that such pas= sing=20 of matter through matter "under certain circumstances and conditions" by=20 psychic means, cannot be done by one thoroughly trained in, and a master of= the=20 occult arts and sciences.) But like "Beam me up Scotty" of Star Trek, this= is a=20 special case that may or may not be feasible, and could be a total fantasy,= =20 if not a stage (or movie special effects) magician's illusion.=20 >.......using quotation marks to inform that there must be a better verb >for this ----- > >The beep of the object just faded to zero at the moment that it "passes >through" the wall and started beeping again when appears at the other room= . > >By the power of the sensitive=B4s incounscious will, all the matter from >the device was " desintegrated " and " reintegrated" at the the end and >also the electromagnetic waves stop being processed by the radio/device >and being " remounted again, with all its inherent atomic complexities >show that matter is etheric energy concentrated and keeps in integration >by a stronger and superior will ( call it God=B4s Will or whatever) that >can be temporally interrupted by the psychic/adept with a strong contrary >will in action. > >I gess that this superior will that keep things shaped they are before >the desintegration is of the same quality and origin than the Adept=B4s=20 >manipulation of that same will. > >What do you think? I can only guess that you could be right. :-).=20 >Unfortunately I can see so many things that Man creates using this same >will-power during these periods of war in which nations are compelled to >kill each other by politics and, challenging, egoistic purposes. Obviously. Will is a universal force that can be used for good or evil=20 purposes -- depending on one's motive for action. Leon. >Krishtar > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Jul 01 00:54:21 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 80597 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 07:54:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 07:54:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 07:54:20 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2004 07:53:58 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 07:53:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1d8.255b1dc6.2e151650@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2368 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.91 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Some Comments on Leon's Reply X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Leon, you wrote among many other things: ========================================================= It's really quite pointless (for me) to discuss theosophical concepts with anyone who blindly accepts everything written about it by its promulgators as being absolutely true -- since it comes from the mouth of supposed authorities, or people one accepts as such... A method of learning that HPB said was an improper way to approach theosophy -- which should be taken with a grain of salt, or as a theory only, and questioned thoroughly, until one has subjectively.... ========================================================== So are you suggesting that I BLINDLY accept EVERYTHING written about it [THEOSOPHY] by its promulgators as being ABSOLUTELY true??? If that is your argument, then you simply don't understand where I am coming from. Since you have made what many readers might take as quite ASSERTIVE statements about what is and is not possible including what is in Blavatsky's writings, I thought it would be quite helpful for others readers (if not for you) to see your statements set side by side with various statements by HPB, KH, Judge and other early Theosophists. Also I was hoping that some readers might try to think thru some of the issues raised. Whether an individual reader accepts what HPB and KH write or what you assert or rejects all of it or does something else, is up to each reader...... Certainly we should ask hard questions about these incidents involving the occult but one should also see how these types of events fit into the Theosophical teachings given by HPB and her Teachers. I was attempting in some rough manner to give readers some indications in this direction. Certainly sometimes one should read between the lines and look for a deeper meaning but this is no excuse for ignoring what is repeated over and over in the original theosophical literature. Some of your arguments remind me of arguments made by followers of Bailey, Leadbeater, Prophet, etc. who say you shouldn't take what HPB and the Mahatmas say literally but should look between the lines... At least in some of these cases these followers are simply trying to wiggle out of a clear contradiction between what HPB and the Masters originally wrote and what some later claimant asserts..... Daniel http://hpb.cc http://theosophy.info From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Jul 01 00:54:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29544 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 07:54:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 07:54:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m24.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.5) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 07:54:32 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.90.483f4a3f (3964) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <90.483f4a3f.2e151d2f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 03:54:23 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.5 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Leon, I love your "take" on the cup and saucer but I do have a question X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 06/29/04 12:28:36 PM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: >> Not to say that HPB would have had to stoop to such mundane levels. But, I >> like to think of Madame Blavatsky, in addition to her brilliant mind and great >> oratory, writing, artistic and musical skills, as being a real hearty, down to >> Earth type of character who liked a good joke and playing harmless tricks >>on gullible people. Since she easily exposed all the phony phenomena of >> the spiritualist tricksters -- as the old saying goes -- it takes a good >> one to know one. ;-) > > That is pretty close to my own thoughts on the matter, although, in >addition, I think that she used phenomena, real or faked, as an >attention getter, kind of like a speaker may open a speech with a joke >to get the audience in a receptive mood for the real message. > > Bart Nevertheless, all that has nothing to do with the inherent quality or purpose of the message itself. As I see it, we have to take theosophy as it has been presented, and through careful study and intuition, cull out the real meanings underlying the dead letter teachings for ourselves. To consider the messenger, the method of presentation, or the history of the movement, the personages, or the societies connected with the teachings -- is no help at all in arriving at a true understanding of the underlying reasonableness of the message with respect to the fundamental principles along with the inherent logic of its metaphysical genesis along with its involutional and evolutional processes -- including the storage and transfer of information, correlation of forces, application of will, as well as its methods of transformation of substance and form throughout the various levels of multidimensional spatial reality. The depth of this occult understanding, which is dependent on one's own intuition tempered by reason, is far deeper than can be discussed in words alone. Leon From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Jul 01 01:40:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44951 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 08:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 08:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 08:40:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.163] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2004 08:40:52 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 08:40:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8a.ea8e16f.2e151156@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2747 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.74 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Mixing apples and oranges???? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Leon, you wrote: ===================================================== I think we are mixing apples and oranges when we compare the manifestation of simple substances like base metals, non living carbonaceous substances like paper along with the writing on it, or simple plaster -- with more complex structures like glazed and painted porcelain of particular design, or manufactured items like computers (that began this commentary in the first place). The concept of a light manipulated hologram was just proposed as one possibility of a manifestation of a physical form, and did not preclude other methods of so called "materialization's" -- such as actual disassembly and reassembly of material particles that make up a simple form, precipitation of writing on existing or manifested paper of temporary or permanent form -- depending on the method of precipitation or assembly, etc. Such phenomena can be done by many different methods of correlation and manipulation of coenergetic forces on or through multiple levels of hyperspace. =================================================== But Leon, my question to you and other interested readers is: are we really mixing apples with oranges?? As far as I can tell, you have not made a case for that other than to assert it. If an adept can manipulate the "atoms" in a letter or in a piece of plaster; if an occultist such as HPB or KH could materialize a letter from the Akasa or teleport one from one location to another; if HPB or M could precipitate ink on a sheet of paper, then is it such a LEAP that they could do the same with a cup or a brooch or the dozens of other larger objects that apparently HPB "created" or "manipulated"? You write as though it is a matter of fact that: "Such phenomena [that you accept ]can be done by many different methods of correlation and manipulation of coenergetic forces on or through multiple levels of hyperspace." If that is true, then why not that of a cup or brooch? You say that the cup would be a "more complex structure" than paper or plaster, but you have not shown why an adept who can manipulate the "atoms" of paper or plaster cannot also manipulate the "atoms" of a cup or a brooch. The Randis of the world would no doubt say we are simply talking about apples. There are NO oranges. The human "mind" or "will" cannot directly manipulate matter either thru levitation or materialization. And that all such claimed occurrences concerning paranormal manipulation of paper or cups involve some ERROR of observation or FRAUD, conjuring tricks, etc. etc. I may be missing your point but as far as I can see it, you have only made an assertion. Daniel http://hpb.cc http://theosophy.info From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Jul 01 03:01:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4553 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 10:01:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 10:01:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 10:01:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2004 10:00:33 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 10:00:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 509 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.85 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.225.183.77 Subject: The Trial X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Saddam Hussein may not be the only jerkoff in the courtroom when he us put on trial. His defense attorneys want to call George Bush I, Bush 2, and "Rummy" Rumnsfeld, without whom Saddam's atrocities would not have been possible, as well. The problem is, nobody can tell them apart. What if Saddam takes advantage of the confusuion to leave the courtroom and move into the white house snd Bush 2 finally faces justice? Will any of Bush's brain damaged admirers be able to tell their boy is missing? From raghu_k@alfinance.com Thu Jul 01 03:12:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64979 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 10:12:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 10:12:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alfinance.com) (202.91.64.210) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 10:12:34 -0000 Received: from itrwte01 ([172.16.8.21]) by alfinance.com (alfinance.com [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v7.0.1.R) with ESMTP id md50000174276.msg for ; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:42:23 +0530 To: Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:41:29 +0530 Message-ID: <004101c45f53$c723c130$150810ac@ALFITR01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Processed: alfinance.com, Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:42:23 +0530 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 172.16.8.21 X-Return-Path: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.91.64.210 From: "Raghu K" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World The Trial X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=155869969 Steve I don't think there was any atrocity committed by Saddam, as projected by the US & Britain. Tony Blair says hundreds of thousands of Kurds were killed by Saddam ( Look @ the number). The magnitude of the adjective only asserts the sort of desperation that Tony Blair is under. No.2, Don Rumsfeld & co are confident of wmd being in Iraq, simply because they were supplied by his Highness Rumsfeld himself in the 1980s to fuel the Iran - Iraq crisis. Anyway, what is the motive behind all these ? I feel oil is one and number two is religion (Christianity ) propagation. Any comments ?? Raghu -----Original Message----- From: stevestubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 3:31 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World The Trial Saddam Hussein may not be the only jerkoff in the courtroom when he us put on trial. His defense attorneys want to call George Bush I, Bush 2, and "Rummy" Rumnsfeld, without whom Saddam's atrocities would not have been possible, as well. The problem is, nobody can tell them apart. What if Saddam takes advantage of the confusuion to leave the courtroom and move into the white house snd Bush 2 finally faces justice? Will any of Bush's brain damaged admirers be able to tell their boy is missing? Yahoo! Groups Links From adviser77@msn.com Thu Jul 01 04:20:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: adviser77@msn.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33128 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 11:20:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 11:20:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (65.54.173.6) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 11:20:48 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 04:20:47 -0700 Received: from 62.178.163.116 by by5fd.bay5.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:20:46 GMT X-Originating-Email: [adviser77@msn.com] X-Sender: adviser77@msn.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 11:20:46 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jul 2004 11:20:47.0201 (UTC) FILETIME=[74F4BD10:01C45F5D] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.54.173.6 From: "cesar joanino" X-Originating-IP: [62.178.163.116] Subject: RE: Theos-World The Trial X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99044932 X-Yahoo-Profile: enlightedat Well, as far as i know Saddam Hussein did commit atrocities of different magnitudes..agains the kurds,those who are against his party and the Iraqi people as well...no doubt about that..the motive is so many ranging from Disposing Saddam as a dictator,,,Bussiness as well it includes Oil..for a stable world...and Religion is another..however at least The United states had acted upon and remove some canker in this world..the rest is for the Iraqi people Rev Cesar Joanino DD >From: "Raghu K" >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: RE: Theos-World The Trial >Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:41:29 +0530 > >Steve > >I don't think there was any atrocity committed by Saddam, as projected by >the US & Britain. Tony Blair says hundreds of thousands of Kurds were >killed >by Saddam ( Look @ the number). The magnitude of the adjective only >asserts >the sort of desperation that Tony Blair is under. > >No.2, Don Rumsfeld & co are confident of wmd being in Iraq, simply because >they were supplied by his Highness Rumsfeld himself in the 1980s to fuel >the >Iran - Iraq crisis. > >Anyway, what is the motive behind all these ? I feel oil is one and number >two is religion (Christianity ) propagation. > >Any comments ?? > >Raghu > >-----Original Message----- >From: stevestubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 3:31 PM >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Theos-World The Trial > > >Saddam Hussein may not be the only jerkoff in the courtroom when he >us put on trial. His defense attorneys want to call George Bush I, >Bush 2, and "Rummy" Rumnsfeld, without whom Saddam's atrocities would >not have been possible, as well. The problem is, nobody can tell >them apart. What if Saddam takes advantage of the confusuion to >leave the courtroom and move into the white house snd Bush 2 finally >faces justice? Will any of Bush's brain damaged admirers be able to >tell their boy is missing? > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From raghu_k@alfinance.com Thu Jul 01 04:25:03 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4074 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 11:25:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 11:25:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alfinance.com) (202.91.64.210) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 11:25:01 -0000 Received: from itrwte01 ([172.16.8.21]) by alfinance.com (alfinance.com [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v7.0.1.R) with ESMTP id md50000175119.msg; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:53:05 +0530 To: Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 16:52:13 +0530 Message-ID: <005a01c45f5d$a90cc480$150810ac@ALFITR01> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Processed: alfinance.com, Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:53:05 +0530 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 172.16.8.21 X-Return-Path: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.91.64.210 From: "Raghu K" Reply-To: Subject: Ego - the drive to be self righteous ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=155869969 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cream StationeryHi Penance and suicide : I have to kill my ego to become a saint - then, can I involve in self depreciation and suicide (only theoritically, buddy, don't bother) ? Because, when u say there is no self and everything is the almighty, well, I am nothing and non existent. The yogis do this to attain the state of bliss, I guess. Correct me, if I am wrong. ok - when u kill your ego, u become eternal and enlightened ! Is the state of eternal bliss / salvation, being inert / indifferent to external stimuli and thick skinned ? I feel that sometimes, it is ego, that makes a man be self righteous. There are instances, when i have come across guys, who said they didn't have ego and behaved shabily - Well, whatever u say is not gonna affect them, anyway, ain't it ?? Does it mean that yogis are shabby guys or the other way, they have an ego, that maketh them the high esteemed people that they are ? I am confused because of this phenomenon that I found in non egotists - they were indifferent to anything and were shabby (in dress / language / behaviour), a couple of days back. Can anyone clarify ?? Raghu [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From raghu_k@alfinance.com Thu Jul 01 04:54:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70695 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 11:54:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 11:54:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alfinance.com) (202.91.64.210) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 11:54:10 -0000 Received: from itrwte01 ([172.16.8.21]) by alfinance.com (alfinance.com [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v7.0.1.R) with ESMTP id md50000175573.msg for ; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:23:53 +0530 To: Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 17:22:57 +0530 Message-ID: <006501c45f61$f4e792a0$150810ac@ALFITR01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Processed: alfinance.com, Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:23:53 +0530 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 172.16.8.21 X-Return-Path: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.91.64.210 From: "Raghu K" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World The Trial X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=155869969 Mr.Cesar Has the world become stable, now that Saddam is disposed ? Or did he contribute significantly to the 'instability' of the world ? Raghu -----Original Message----- From: cesar joanino [mailto:adviser77@msn.com] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 4:51 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Theos-World The Trial Well, as far as i know Saddam Hussein did commit atrocities of different magnitudes..agains the kurds,those who are against his party and the Iraqi people as well...no doubt about that..the motive is so many ranging from Disposing Saddam as a dictator,,,Bussiness as well it includes Oil..for a stable world...and Religion is another..however at least The United states had acted upon and remove some canker in this world..the rest is for the Iraqi people Rev Cesar Joanino DD >From: "Raghu K" >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: RE: Theos-World The Trial >Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:41:29 +0530 > >Steve > >I don't think there was any atrocity committed by Saddam, as projected by >the US & Britain. Tony Blair says hundreds of thousands of Kurds were >killed >by Saddam ( Look @ the number). The magnitude of the adjective only >asserts >the sort of desperation that Tony Blair is under. > >No.2, Don Rumsfeld & co are confident of wmd being in Iraq, simply because >they were supplied by his Highness Rumsfeld himself in the 1980s to fuel >the >Iran - Iraq crisis. > >Anyway, what is the motive behind all these ? I feel oil is one and number >two is religion (Christianity ) propagation. > >Any comments ?? > >Raghu > >-----Original Message----- >From: stevestubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 3:31 PM >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Theos-World The Trial > > >Saddam Hussein may not be the only jerkoff in the courtroom when he >us put on trial. His defense attorneys want to call George Bush I, >Bush 2, and "Rummy" Rumnsfeld, without whom Saddam's atrocities would >not have been possible, as well. The problem is, nobody can tell >them apart. What if Saddam takes advantage of the confusuion to >leave the courtroom and move into the white house snd Bush 2 finally >faces justice? Will any of Bush's brain damaged admirers be able to >tell their boy is missing? > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Yahoo! Groups Links From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Jul 01 06:19:25 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17648 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 13:19:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 13:19:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.254) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 13:19:24 -0000 Received: from pool0017.cvx34-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.6.17] helo=DALLAS) by invasion.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Bg1Sp-0004f5-7b; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 06:18:56 -0700 To: Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:18:41 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c45f6d$f41f9140$1106f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <005a01c45f5d$a90cc480$150810ac@ALFITR01> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79255a50f5ad19d44fd921121e4728d846350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.254 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Originating-IP: 216.244.6.17 Subject: RE: Theos-World Ego - the drive to be self righteous ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 June 1 2004 Re TWO EGOS IN MAN ( Higher and Lower Manas)=20 Dear R K. Try and read what is available in SD II 167 on this point=20=20 It may appear puzzling, but if we consider the immortality of Man as a MONA= D (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) and, that this is imperishable and immortal, then we ma= y see that our present "mind" (the "Personality") is only a continually changing and passing phase -- as we, the truly IMMORTAL BEING -- the "HIGHER SELF or Atma" pass through life after life aiming always at making of each successive life an embodiment of increasing perfection and amity -= - towards the final GOAL. of TOTAL PERFECTION.=20=20 There, We become "one with the Universe" and yet, we do not loose our identity. This is WISDOM COMPLETE.=20=20 But we need to continually bear in mind the one true fact. As GOD is everywhere, IT is inside us as well. We need to allow IT to express itself as all the great Rishis and Prophets of the past and present do. In them we sense that the HIGHER SELF is, present and active.=20 And why not ourselves also? We can TRY, Isn't GOD omnipresent -- that is IN EVERYTHING ? -- then why not in us also= ? If we are "gods in the making," then we have bright prospects ahead of us. = =20 If we fear "Satan," or the "devil" is it not our own ignorance, and or limited vision of things (after all -- everything we acquire during this life we abandon at death !) ,selfishness and desire for isolation, to own and to hold, and pleasure through "excitement," that tempts and defeats ou= r higher more virtuous, brotherly aspirations? Shall we allow this to continu= e and waste our opportunities?=20 There are other references to be consulted: In the SECRET DOCTRINE (TWO EGOS IN MAN: II 167)=20=20 in addition look at: -- Vol. I 106, 150fn, 180, 184, 188fn, 210, 225, 247, 275, 380, 288fn, 421, 539fn, 609, 638-9,=20 Vol. II 42, 79-80, 93-4, 103 top, 109, 132-5, 163, 171, 176fn, 184-5, 228 230, 234, 241, 246, 254-5, 272, 275, 282-7, 507, 615,=20 What are true, lasting, and valuable possessions?=20=20 Are they only ours, or are they shared with all truly wise men?=20=20 Does one have to be "shabby" to be "wise?"=20=20 Are so-called "Yogis" helpful? How do we know who is a true Yogi? Is it no= t through the inspiration that they offer, and the logic they teach?=20 Does true wisdom ever advertise?=20 What are the use of wealth and possessions if we "can't take them with us?" On the other hand, are not character, wisdom and knowledge, and the ability to be of help to others, virtues that are immortal, and which demark a trul= y benevolent personage? Who says we can't become that? Without the concepts of eternal and just, strict LAW that rules everything, and the immortality of the human Soul/Spirit [ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS] that make= s every human an ETERNAL PILGRIM, what have we that is basic and solid to rel= y on?=20=20 DO OUR RELIGIONS TEACH US TO THINK and to be self-reliant, or do they choos= e to ask us to adopt unproved faith and blind belief ? -- and trust in nothin= g that is logical?=20 Happy hunting, This is a good exercise. Dallas =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Raghu K=20 Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 4:22 AM To:=20 Subject: Ego - the drive to be self righteous ! Penance and suicide : I have to kill my ego to become a saint - then, can I involve in self depreciation and suicide (only theoritically, buddy, don't bother) ? Because, when u say there is no self and everything is the almighty, well, = I am nothing and non existent. The yogis do this to attain the state of bliss, I guess. Correct me, if I am wrong. ok - when u kill your ego, u become eternal and enlightened ! Is the stat= e of eternal bliss / salvation, being inert / indifferent to external stimuli and thick skinned ? I feel that sometimes, it is ego, that makes a man be self righteous. There are instances, when i have come across guys, who sai= d they didn't have ego and behaved shabily - Well, whatever u say is not gonn= a affect them, anyway, ain't it ?? Does it mean that yogis are shabby guys or the other way, they have an ego, that maketh them the high esteemed people that they are ? I am confused because of this phenomenon that I found in non egotists - the= y were indifferent to anything and were shabby (in dress / language / behaviour), a couple of days back. Can anyone clarify ?? Raghu From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Jul 01 07:59:31 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92971 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 14:59:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 14:59:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 14:59:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.170] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2004 14:57:56 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:57:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1305 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.76 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Master Koot Hoomi on a Theosophical teaching X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Master K.H. wrote the following to A.O. Hume about a month after Madame Blavatsky performed the cup and saucer phenomenon. Certainly this passage shows the philosophical rationale behind the cup and saucer phenomenon. ==================================================== The human brain is an exhaustless generator of the most refined quality of cosmic force, out of the low, brute energy of nature; and the complete adept has made himself a centre from which irradiate potentialities that beget correlations upon correlations through Aeons to come. This is the key to the mystery of his being able to project into and materialise in the visible world the forms that his imagination has constructed out of inert cosmic matter in the invisible world. The adept does not create anything new, but only utilises and manipulates materials which nature has in store around him; a material which throughout eternities has passed through all the forms; he has but to choose the one he wants and recall it into objective existence. Would not this sound to one of your "learned" biologists like a madman's dream? Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-khaoh.htm ====================================================== Daniel Caldwell http://hpb.cc http://theosophy.info From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Jul 01 08:24:08 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25931 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 15:24:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 15:24:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.104) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 15:24:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.169] by n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2004 15:23:58 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:23:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3895 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.104 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: HPB on the cup & saucer phenomenon & its relationship to Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In the following extract, H.P. Blavatsky writes about=20 the cup & saucer phenomenon, her other experiments in=20 occult phenomena & their relationship to Theosophy: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D . . . when I have once allowed my name to appear in=20 the light of a benevolent genius, for the production=20 of "cups," "saucers" and "brooches," I must bear the=20 penalty; especially when the people are so foolish=20 as to take the word "Magic" either in its popular=20 superstitious sense =97 that of the work of the devil=20 =97 or in that of jugglery. . . .=20 Being neither a professional medium nor a professional=20 anything, and MAKING MY EXPERIMENTS in "Occult=20 phenomena" only in the presence of a few friends =97=20 rarely before anyone who is not a member of our=20 Society =97 I have a right to claim from the public=20 a little more fairness and politeness than are=20 usually accorded to paid jugglers and even alleged=20 Thaumaturgists. . . .=20 ...Theosophy believes in no miracle, whether divine=20 or devilish; recognizes nothing as supernatural;=20 believes only in facts and Science; studies the=20 laws of Nature, both Occult and patent; and gives=20 attention particularly to the former, just because=20 exact Science will have nothing to do with them. Such laws are those of Magnetism in all its branches, Mesmerism,=20 Psychology, etc. More than once in the history of its past has=20 Science been made the victim of its own delusions as to its professed=20 infallibility; and the time must come when the perfection of Asiatic=20 Psychology and its knowledge of the forces of the invisible world=20 will be recognized, as were the circulation of the blood,=20 electricity, and so forth, after the first sneers and lampoons died=20 away. The "silly attempts to hoodwink individuals" will then be=20 viewed as honest attempts at proving to this generation of=20 Spiritualists and believers in past " miracle-mongers," that there is=20 naught miraculous in this world of Matter and Spirit, of visible=20 results and invisible causes. . . .=20 I beg leave to further remark that personally I never bragged of=20 anything I might have done, nor do I offer any explanation of the=20 phenomena, except to utterly disclaim the possession of any=20 miraculous or supernatural powers, or the performing of anything by=20 jugglery =97 i.e., with the usual help of confederates and machinery. That's all. And surely, if there is anything like a sense of justice left in society, I am amenable to neither statutory=20 nor social laws for gratifying the interest of members of our=20 Society, and the wishes of my personal friends, by exhibiting to them=20 in privacy various phenomena, in which I believe far more firmly than=20 any of them, SINCE I KNOW THE LAWS BY WHICH THEY ARE PRODUCED. . . .=20 ...Of the five eye-witnesses to the "cup" production, three (two=20 of these of the "official circle") utterly disbelieve the genuineness=20 of the phenomenon, though I would be pleased to know how, with all=20 their scepticism, they would be able to account for it. ... The only=20 benefit I have ever derived from my experiments, when made public, is=20 newspaper abuse and more or less unfavourable comments upon my=20 unfortunate self all over the country. This, unless my convictions=20 were strong indeed, would amount to obtaining Billingsgate and=20 martyrdom under false pretences, and begging a reputation for=20 insanity. The game would hardly be worth the candle, I think. H. P. BLAVATSKY. Amritzur, Oct. 25th, 1880.=20 Excerpted from: http://blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/OccultPhenomena.htm BOLD ADDED =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Daniel http://hpb.cc http://theosophy.info From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Jul 01 09:14:35 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17563 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 16:14:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 16:14:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 16:14:29 -0000 Received: from pool-138-89-148-145.mad.east.verizon.net ([138.89.148.145] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bg4Cj-0000DD-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 09:14:29 -0700 Message-ID: <40E4386B.8060800@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:14:35 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.22 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Some Implications of Bart's Contention that the occult phenomena were faked X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: > Now let us take a look at the implications of Bart's > assertion that the occult phenomena were faked. I would like you to show me where I ever made such an assertion. Bart From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Jul 01 09:39:22 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42730 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 16:39:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 16:39:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.105) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 16:39:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.173] by n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2004 16:38:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:38:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <004101c45f53$c723c130$150810ac@ALFITR01> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2276 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.105 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.226.69.15 Subject: Re: Theos-World The Trial X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Raghu K" wrote: > Steve > > I don't think there was any atrocity committed by Saddam, as projected by > the US & Britain. Tony Blair says hundreds of thousands of Kurds were killed > by Saddam ( Look @ the number). The magnitude of the adjective only asserts > the sort of desperation that Tony Blair is under. Well, Blair's lies may put an end to his government. There is a graveyard in Kurdistan for the victims of the gassing, and there are people alive there today who claim to have witnessed it. > No.2, Don Rumsfeld & co are confident of wmd being in Iraq, simply because > they were supplied by his Highness Rumsfeld himself in the 1980s to fuel the > Iran - Iraq crisis. The Reagan ad not only supplied Saddam with WMDs but sattelite photos of where to drop them. At the same time Reagan and his cronies were taking action against their own constituents at home for their private benefit and everyone else's detriment. He will not be missed at this house and he was not mourned here when he finally died at last, thank God. > Anyway, what is the motive behind all these ? Dick Cgeney's company Halliburton was given control of all the oil in Ueaq in a secret sweetheart deal brokered by Dick Cheney, who claims he sees no conflict of interest there, heh, heh. Since then they have played every game they can play to cheat the Iraqis and their own government. Cheney has the dubious distinction of being the only witnesse ever called before a senate committed who used obscenities and stomped out of the room when asked about rhe blatant corruoption at which he is the centeal character. He takes a supreme court justice duck hunting, and the judge has thus far shielded Cheney from legal action. There has always been corruption but what distingushes the bush Administration is, they make no attemot to be discreet about it. There are also the fantasies of evangelical christianity that this war is going to somehow bring Jesus Christ to earth. If Bush ever gets away from that liquor cabinet of his long enoug to sober up he will figure out Jesus Christ is not going anywhere, Iraq or anywhere else. That is, if he does nothave wet brain from all the drinking he does. From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Jul 01 10:43:51 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 247 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 17:43:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 17:43:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 17:43:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.122] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2004 17:43:29 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:43:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <40E4386B.8060800@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3428 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.85 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: Bart: "....show me where I ever made such an assertion...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell I wrote: =========================================================== Now let us take a look at the implications of Bart's assertion that the occult phenomena were faked. =========================================================== Bart now replies: ========================================================== I would like you to show me where I ever made such an assertion. ========================================================== Bart, I will quote below some of your own words about the cup & saucer phenomenon. I guess you will now quibble over what you were actually trying to tell readers on Theos-Talk. ------------------------------------------------------------------- QUOTE 1 from Bart And the very fact that it WAS buried that way is, in fact, an indicator that it was faked. Why materialize the teacup in that manner? To make it look more impossible; that is the only possible motivation. There are many magic tricks which involve getting an object into an "impossible" position.... ------------------------------------------------------------------- QUOTE 2 from Bart ....it could have been buried just a few days before. And it also could have been palmed, although I suspect that it was planted before, especially considering that it was Blavatsky who suggested (insisted on) the spot for the picnic. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bart, I asked you WHO planted the cup and saucer? and you replied: -------------------------------------------------------------------- QUOTE 3 Probably Blavatsky with help; most probably one of the servants; Khitmutgar comes to mind immediately. ------------------------------------------------------------------- QUOTE 4 from Bart OK, I don't know what the exact terrain was. But, if one digs in at an angle to the roots, one can push them aside, put in the teacup, then refill the hole with dirt, making it appear that the roots grew around the teacup. Since the entry hole may be a couple of feet from where the teacup was found, it is likely that it wasn't noticed, especially if it were covered by a rock and moss. ------------------------------------------------------------------- QUOTE 5 from Bart We have phenomena which have never been duplicated, and we have natural explanations. You take your pick, and everybody else can take theirs --------------------------------------------------------------------- QUOTE 6 from Bart If Blavatsky could materialize a teacup, why didn't she just do it in full view of everybody? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bart, I look forward to your "quibbling" explanation of the above quotes, but I would think that most readers would get the message from these six quotes that you believe that the cup and saucer phenomenon was faked. You make quite a categorical statement when you remark: "And the very fact that it WAS buried that way is, in fact, an indicator that it was faked." You are advocating here a NEGATIVE HYPOTHESIS as Dr. Truzzi would phrase it. A "true skeptic" (as defined by Truzzi) would not do that. Your arguments as given above is the same kind used by James Randi in many of his so-called exposes of various paranormal claims. I do not think James Randi can be called a "true skeptic" as defined by Dr. Truzzi. Shall we quibble more? Daniel http://hpb.cc http://theosophy.info From compiler@wisdomworld.org Thu Jul 01 11:56:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62758 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 18:56:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 18:56:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ams002.ftl.affinity.com) (216.219.253.98) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 18:56:24 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([68.55.92.204]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id <311888-20500>; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 14:52:53 -0400 Message-ID: <40E46B29.A51B500C@wisdomworld.org> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 14:51:05 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 216.219.253.98 From: Compiler Subject: "ARGUMENTS ON REINCARNATION" (14-part series) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld I hope that many readers, especially newcomers to theosophy, will find this very profound 14-part series of articles about "Reincarnation", all presented in the "Light of Theosophy", to be very informative and helpful. All of the articles are from THEOSOPHY magazine, and are on my WisdomWorld.org web site. The series is found in the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book of 166 articles that I've compiled, and is entitled "Arguments on Reincarnation". The link that gets you to it follows the below listing of all the titles. After you click on it just scroll down the list of numbered articles in the book until you run into the series, which runs from article number (34) to number (47). This is what you are looking for (of course, each one will be a link when you get there): ====================================== Note: The next fourteen (14) articles are a series: "ARGUMENTS ON REINCARNATION": (34) I: The Single Source (35) II: Mind and Matter (36) III: Is There A "Soul"? (37) IV: Nature of Memory (38) V: The Independence Of Mind (39) VI: Reincarnation or Revelation? (40) VII: The Underlying Law (41) VIII: Law and Justice (42) IX: Memory and Justice (43) X: Actual Memories (44) XI: The Animal Question (45) XII: Reincarnation and Heredity (46) XIII: Reincarnation and Environment (47) XIV: The Social Cycle ------- The Index page for the 166-article book: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html ======================================== Dear newcomers to Theosophy: I sincerely do hope that my web site offers a well-rounded overall view of Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement. The 3 main links to everything on it are found below. Please know that I'm only the compiler of all the articles found on my web site; I'm not a scholar; and also that I personally do not like to take part in conversations, even though I do hope that what I present from time to time will help a little in the discussions being carried on by others. So please do not be insulted when I do not respond if someone addresses me, or addresses anything that is found in any of the articles on my web site; I leave that for others to deal with if they want to -- whether pro, con, neutral, friendly or unfriendly. John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added (which contains 18 sections that can each be clicked on at the top of the page in order to go directly down to them, as well as to get the link to any particular section that you may want to use in a posting on a discussion board, or in an e-mail to someone): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html "PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT FORUM": This next link is to the most updated version of my economic proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering world that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org ------- From samblo@cs.com Thu Jul 01 12:08:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 33279 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 19:07:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 19:07:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 19:07:44 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r2.6.) id r.1c7.1b39bc86 (3699) for ; Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1c7.1b39bc86.2e15baec@cs.com> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 15:07:24 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.37 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Master Koot Hoomi on a Theosophical teaching X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, Well, my current view has been somewhat modified by current Scientific Research which I believe represents a "convergence" Blavatsky spoke of when disclosing her view of the future after her time. It may well be the Science, Philosophy, Religion, and Theosophy are slowly, gradiantly moving to a new understanding of their individual "precepts" of Nature. A while back I mentioned the Alaya Vijnana, the Earth Store House, which in concept contains all that is, was, and will be (as it itself is outside Temporality) this I think can be viewed in terms of the Mahatma post as the "resource" to which an Adept has access, and finding there the true form in the most Archetypial developed state can transfer to subjective reality. Recent Science has determined that the human DNA is in perpetual communication and transfers information from the Non-local Quantum Matrix which is a direct correlate of the Alaya Vijnana or the Akash of Cayce. Do a Google search of Alaya Vijnana and then search "Gariaev" and read both, see if they do not agree and correlate with Blavatsky and the Mahatma's. Differentiation is a constant process, change is a constant process. What resource provides the form that constitutes change? Maintaining a stasis is not in my opinion benefiting us, growth is also a necessity. Robert Neil Boyd is another originator of science that grooves neatly with what we discuss so often here. Some time ago I posted about a "coin" that was materialized that I held and inspected under a stereo-zoom lab microscope. The person who materialized it is still alive today, so are most of the witnesses. Are the only Phenomena acceptable those which were produced by Theosophical identities? Also, some time back I posted about a Theosophist who wrote a book about Satya Sai Baba and who in his book relates how Sai Baba "Materializes" a gem which was given to this Theosophist, and which many years later in his book he adamantly states he still has in his possession and that it has not changed or faded away. Why, if this is of such high import hasn't this grabbed the minds and been investigated if the holder is yet alive (Howard Murphet) and the Gem can be produced and can be scientifically examined in present time wouldn't that at least produced a testimony that is correlate to the thread? I believe that "Visionaries" and that Eureka Moment may be the result of having had acquired access to the Alaya Vijnana, alias the Quantum Matrix which in people having a capacity to hold the memory long enough to view and then have Cognition about that content results in bringing new things into the reality of our every day life. But as this Storehouse has all of what we call past-present-future in it's Non-local, Non-temporal fullness, mans ego believes he did it all by his self. Like those Vaudeville Stage Con-icians. John John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mail@k... Thu Jul 01 12:22:01 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mail@k... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 409 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 19:22:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 19:22:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 19:22:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2004 19:20:47 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:20:46 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1953 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.74 From: "Katinka Hesselink" X-Originating-IP: 81.59.105.108 Subject: materialisation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=92802723 X-Yahoo-Profile: katinka_hesselink Hi Steve, I'm going to do something in this post that I almost never do: get modern science to corroborate theosophy. First of all - I wasn't aware that HPB claimed the whole universe was a materialisation, but now that you mention it - I guess she does. :) Second: modern science teaches - and it is taught in high school these days - that matter can be converted into light-energy, which is surely not as 'physical'. So 'once upon a time' it is reasonable to suppose that the process went the other way: light turned into matter... Blavatsky went one step further of course - light itself would be seen as a materialisation of some 'higher' level... and so on and so forth. Anyhow, wait for proof and you will be waiting till the end of time (and that will never come). Katinka --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "stevestubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "prmoliveira" > wrote: > > Another > > assumption is that the phenomena produced by Blavatsky can either > > prove or disprove the validity of Theosophy as a systemic teaching. > > Is it so? > > If materialization could be shown to be a fact that would offer > considerable support to the SD, which assumes the solar system is a > materialization. > > If the materializations were a squalid hoax the way Bart Lidofsky > insists that they were, that would regrettably undermine the > credibility of everything Blavatsky said and did. > > If her clairvoyance was real, and it is probably slightly more > reasonable to assume that it was than to assume that it was not (I > would plaece those two at about equal probabilities, in the abence of > further evidence) then the immensely difficult problem arises how to > validate a clairvoyant perception of reality that by its nature > cannot be checked any other way. I have studied that problem for > many years and still have found no way to get around relying on faith. From mhart@i... Thu Jul 01 13:22:43 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@i... X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20133 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 20:22:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 20:22:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 20:22:26 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.44] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Bg84c-0001u2-ED for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:22:22 +0000 Message-ID: <40E474A9.1000302@i...> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 16:31:37 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@i... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on psi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.125 From: Mauri Subject: re Prez and liguor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Steve wrote: <> According to a recent TV documentary, Buzh gave up drinking with help from religion. How would you know if he's back at it? From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Jul 01 15:15:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32079 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 22:15:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 22:15:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.119) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 22:15:20 -0000 Received: from pool-138-89-148-145.mad.east.verizon.net ([138.89.148.145] helo=sprynet.com) by bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1Bg9pv-0003aT-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:15:20 -0700 Message-ID: <40E48CF7.2080405@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:15:19 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <004101c45f53$c723c130$150810ac@ALFITR01> In-Reply-To: <004101c45f53$c723c130$150810ac@ALFITR01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.119 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World The Trial X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Raghu K wrote: > I don't think there was any atrocity committed by Saddam, as projected by > the US & Britain. Tony Blair says hundreds of thousands of Kurds were killed > by Saddam ( Look @ the number). The magnitude of the adjective only asserts > the sort of desperation that Tony Blair is under. I guess you think the Holocaust was faked, too? Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Jul 01 15:43:55 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29089 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 22:43:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 22:43:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.119) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 22:43:54 -0000 Received: from pool-138-89-148-145.mad.east.verizon.net ([138.89.148.145] helo=sprynet.com) by bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgAHa-0001h5-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 15:43:54 -0700 Message-ID: <40E493AA.7040409@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:43:54 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <006501c45f61$f4e792a0$150810ac@ALFITR01> In-Reply-To: <006501c45f61$f4e792a0$150810ac@ALFITR01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.119 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World The Trial X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Raghu K wrote: > Has the world become stable, now that Saddam is disposed ? Or did he > contribute significantly to the 'instability' of the world ? No, and yes. I doubt that the world will become stable for a long, long time. However, now that he has been deposed, I believe that the world is MORE stable than it was. Bart From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Jul 01 16:19:06 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25770 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 23:19:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 23:19:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 23:19:06 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.251] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2004 23:18:59 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 23:18:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2875 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.92 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.226.3.79 Subject: Re: materialisation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Katinka Hesselink" wrote: > I'm going to do something in this post that I almost never do: get > modern science to corroborate theosophy. Yes, the thesis in the SD is similar to, but not identical with, the nebular hypothesis. The main difference is, the nebular hypothesis is purely mechanical. No Mahat, no Parabrahm, etc. SD students can benefit from reading about the nebular hypothesis and then rereading the SD. > First of all ? I wasn't aware that HPB claimed the whole universe was > a materialisation, but now that you mention it ? I guess she does. :) The solar system. She says the origin of the Kosmos (which is what she calls the rest of the universe) remains a mystery. > Second: modern science teaches ? and it is taught in high school these > days ? that matter can be converted into light?energy That's news to me. When I was in college we had to take a course in quantum mechanics and were told the valence electrons of atoms could have their energy level raised. Then when they returned to the lower energy state they would give up an integer number of "quanta" of energy, which would be turned into photons (packets of light energy.) This phenomenon is used in all sorts of electronic devices. The visible effect of lightning is ionization of the air. The electricity itself is not visible. > So 'once upon a time' it is reasonable to suppose > that the process went the other way: light turned into matter... Yes, that is possible. The nebular hypothesis asserts the solar system was once a vast cloud which slowly condensed into a sun and an as yet indeterminate number of planets. Add intelligent direction to this and it is the same thing as atoms condensing into a "materialization." > Blavatsky went one step further of course ? light itself would be seen > as a materialisation of some 'higher' level... and so on and so forth. My understanding of her thesis was that there is one "force" which manifests to our consciousness in seven different ways. Also that matter and spirit are co eternal, meaning neither was ever created. Spirit according to her therefore affects, but does not create, matter. The two come together in consciousness to produce a phenomenon (i.e., a conscious experience using the word the way it is used in philosophy), though, which phenomenon is in a ssnse "created." > Anyhow, wait for proof and you will be waiting till the end of time > (and that will never come). I have come to suspect Daniel is right. There is no way to set up a "materialization" which cannot be challenged by some ingenious person like Bart Lidofsky. Incidentally, the end of time is scheduled for Friday of next week (not tomorrow but the next Friday.) So get busy and tie up any loose ends in case there is no last minute postponement. From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Jul 01 16:25:16 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69566 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 23:25:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 23:25:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 23:25:01 -0000 Received: from [199.243.59.61] (helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1BgAsI-0007RA-J9 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 23:21:50 +0000 Message-ID: <40E49EB7.9090906@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:31:03 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on phi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=9.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.9 From: Mauri Subject: re Leon's "occult understanding" and "reason" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Leon wrote: <> But if the "tempering by reason" is "karmic/mayavic"... then while one might see some kind of "tempering" going on, seems to me that one's "occult understanding" might be, to some extent, in some sense, in some cases, more in charge re that "understanding" than might be one's "tempered reason," alone ... though of course one might opt to define "reason" to include "occult understanding," I suppose, so ... ^:-/ ... Mauri From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Jul 01 16:32:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31075 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2004 23:31:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2004 23:31:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.103) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2004 23:31:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jul 2004 23:31:37 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 23:31:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <40E474A9.1000302@idirect.ca> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1095 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.103 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.226.3.79 Subject: Re: re Prez and liguor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Mauri wrote: > According to a recent TV documentary, > Buzh gave up drinking with help from > religion. How would you know if he's > back at it? THE DAVE LETTERMAN SHOW, which is one of the few objective sources of information about W., played a segment of ibe f his speeches last night which made it appear he had been hitting the sauce based on his body language. It was so hilarious I am glad I got it on tape. Thank God for Dave Letterman, else I would not have a source for the real insice skinny on George Bush and his henchmen. More worrisome than Bush's tippling, though, is the apparent fact that he has staffed his administration with evangelical religious lonies who think they can bring about the end of the world by stoking the fires in the Mideast. It is one thing to roll on the floor and babble privately. Trying to engulf the planet I share with them in a new holocaust is not a matter of private conscience. As soon as it ceases to be a private matter I acquire the right to comment on how idiotic it is. From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Jul 01 17:21:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75843 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2004 00:21:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2004 00:21:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.119) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2004 00:21:22 -0000 Received: from pool-138-89-148-145.mad.east.verizon.net ([138.89.148.145] helo=sprynet.com) by bittern.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgBnu-0006VY-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:21:22 -0700 Message-ID: <40E4AA81.2050206@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:21:21 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.119 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re Prez and liguor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 stevestubbs wrote: > More worrisome than Bush's tippling, though, is the apparent fact > that he has staffed his administration with evangelical religious > lonies who think they can bring about the end of the world by stoking > the fires in the Mideast. Name two. Bart From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Jul 01 18:55:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 93504 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2004 01:55:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2004 01:55:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2004 01:55:33 -0000 Received: from pool-138-89-148-145.mad.east.verizon.net ([138.89.148.145] helo=sprynet.com) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgDH3-00062F-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 18:55:33 -0700 Message-ID: <40E49A84.5020502@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:13:08 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.123 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Bart: "....show me where I ever made such an assertion...." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: > Bart, I will quote below some of your own words about the cup & > saucer phenomenon. I guess you will now quibble over what you were > actually trying to tell readers on Theos-Talk. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > QUOTE 1 from Bart > > And the very fact that it WAS buried that way is, in fact, > an indicator that it was faked. Why materialize the teacup in that > manner? To make it look more impossible; that is the only possible > motivation. There are many magic tricks which involve getting an > object into an "impossible" position.... I said "an indicator". > QUOTE 2 from Bart > > ....it could have been buried just a few days before. And it also > could have been palmed, although I suspect that it was planted > before, especially considering that it was Blavatsky who > suggested (insisted on) the spot for the picnic. I said, "It could have been", in response to a question of how it could have been done. > Bart, I asked you WHO planted the cup and saucer? and you replied: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > QUOTE 3 > > Probably Blavatsky with help; most probably one of the servants; > Khitmutgar comes to mind immediately. The context was, "if it was faked". I was answering in the theoretical sense. And I DID say, "probably". > QUOTE 4 from Bart > > OK, I don't know what the exact terrain was. But, if one digs in at an > angle to the roots, one can push them aside, put in the teacup, then > refill the hole with dirt, making it appear that the roots grew around > the teacup. Since the entry hole may be a couple of feet from where > the teacup was found, it is likely that it wasn't noticed, especially > if it were covered by a rock and moss. Once again, an explanation of how it COULD have been done. > QUOTE 5 from Bart > > We have phenomena which have never been duplicated, and we have > natural explanations. You take your pick, and everybody else can take > theirs So? > QUOTE 6 from Bart > > If Blavatsky could materialize a teacup, why didn't she just do it in > full view of everybody? That is a question, NOT an assertion. > Bart, I look forward to your "quibbling" explanation of the above > quotes, but I would think that most readers would get the message > from these six quotes that you believe that the cup and saucer > phenomenon was faked. Oh, yes, I BELIEVE that it was faked. That is far different from stating it as a fact. Bart From raghu_k@alfinance.com Thu Jul 01 21:06:09 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 29387 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2004 04:06:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2004 04:06:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alfinance.com) (202.91.64.210) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2004 04:06:05 -0000 Received: from itrwte01 ([172.16.8.21]) by alfinance.com (alfinance.com [127.0.0.1]) (MDaemon.PRO.v7.0.1.R) with ESMTP id md50000178681.msg for ; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:34:25 +0530 To: Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 09:33:30 +0530 Message-ID: <001201c45fe9$89df54b0$150810ac@ALFITR01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <40E48CF7.2080405@sprynet.com> X-Spam-Processed: alfinance.com, Fri, 02 Jul 2004 09:34:25 +0530 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 172.16.8.21 X-Return-Path: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.91.64.210 From: "Raghu K" Reply-To: Subject: RE: Theos-World The Trial X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=155869969 I feel the 'axis of evil' is George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld plus Tony Blair and Jack Straw. Another thing is that the President of Pakistan, Musharaf is supportive of the US - He has not realised that the same fate, as that of Saddam, who was close to the US, a decade ago, can happen to him also. Luckily, there is no oil in Pakistan. -----Original Message----- From: Bart Lidofsky [mailto:bartl@sprynet.com] Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 3:45 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Trial Raghu K wrote: > I don't think there was any atrocity committed by Saddam, as projected by > the US & Britain. Tony Blair says hundreds of thousands of Kurds were killed > by Saddam ( Look @ the number). The magnitude of the adjective only asserts > the sort of desperation that Tony Blair is under. I guess you think the Holocaust was faked, too? Bart Yahoo! Groups Links From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Jul 01 21:30:24 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67122 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2004 04:30:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2004 04:30:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2004 04:30:24 -0000 Received: from pool-138-89-148-145.mad.east.verizon.net ([138.89.148.145] helo=sprynet.com) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1BgFgt-0000xd-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Jul 2004 21:30:23 -0700 Message-ID: <40E4E4DF.7030400@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 00:30:23 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <001201c45fe9$89df54b0$150810ac@ALFITR01> In-Reply-To: <001201c45fe9$89df54b0$150810ac@ALFITR01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.123 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World The Trial X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Raghu K wrote: > I feel the 'axis of evil' is George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld > plus Tony Blair and Jack Straw. Well, at least you live in a country where you are free to believe that. Bart From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Jul 02 06:05:34 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95170 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2004 13:05:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2004 13:05:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.227) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2004 13:05:33 -0000 Received: from pool0073.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.128.73] helo=DALLAS) by starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BgNjN-0006ZD-AV; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 06:05:30 -0700 To: Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 06:05:10 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c46035$3f399cd0$4980b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec794203b9e9aafdeae2e26940e3ba06ceab350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.227 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.73 Subject: Re: me-centric versus all-of-us-centric X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 June 2 Dear Friend: THEOSOPHY began in antiquity.=20=20 H P B was a Messenger bringing THEOSOPHY back to us for study.=20=20 She traces its roots in ISIS UNVEILED and in the SECRET DOCTRINE she deploy= s (its history and doctrines. (see S D I 272-3 for the "source" of THEOSOPH= Y ). Phenomena prove no more than they can be made to occur by Adepts. Also tha= t there are areas of wisdom we are still ignorant of. I don't think anyone looks on THEOSOPHY as a joke -- if they have the perseverance to even read it carefully. Thanks for your good views, Best wishes, Dallas =20 -----Original Message----- From: prmoli Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:45 PM To:=20 Subject: Re: me-centric versus all-of-us-centric One underlying assumption in Steve's discourse is that Theosophy=20 begun with Blavatsky. Did it? Did she ever claim that?=20 Another assumption is that the phenomena produced by Blavatsky can either=20 prove or disprove the validity of Theosophy as a systemic teaching. =20 Is it so? Are the teachings about the fundamental oneness of all=20 existence, of material, intellectual and spiritual evolution, of the=20 intrinsic lawfulness of the universe and of the fundamental identity=20 between human consciousness and the universal consciousness to be=20 pronounced invalid and wrong because a particular phenomenon or=20 phenomena cannot be replicated? Perhaps when we say that Theosophy is a joke that tells more about=20 our own world view than what Theosophy really is. Pedro =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > --- , "Eldon B Tucker" wrote: > > We could also say, for example, "Read again carefully. It=20 > > is a fact that most of the people in the world who are aware of=20 Zen think Zen is a joke and Zen Masters are clowns." =20 > It is serious business but there is an aspect to it that verges on=20 > humor and I would wager no Zen master would attempt to disabuse you=20 > if that is what you thought. >=20 > I had never seen Blavatsky described as a clown until I read what=20 > Bart and Leon had to say. If the whole thing was a joke, that does=20 > raise a serious doubt in my mind as to whether or not anyone should=20 > take it seriously. Having been consistently unable to fnd any=20 first hand evidence that anyone can materialize anything, the=20 > materialization phenomena seem less credible to me than the other=20 > theosophical phenomena and in need of more corroborating evidence=20 > than the others. I thought the teacup incident was pretty solid,=20 but Bart has offered an ingenious explanation which proves I was wrong. >=20 > A more importan issue is whether Blavatsky or anyone else (forget=20 > about Leadbeater) was clairvoyant. If that was a mere uut on, then=20 > the whole system, or most of it anyway, falls at least halfway to=20 the ground.=20=20 -------------------------- From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Jul 02 06:05:59 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87485 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2004 13:05:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2004 13:05:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.227) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2004 13:05:57 -0000 Received: from pool0073.cvx28-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.128.73] helo=DALLAS) by starling.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BgNjZ-0006ZD-IC; Fri, 02 Jul 2004 06:05:50 -0700 To: "'Theosophy Study List'" Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 06:05:10 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c46035$46f94150$4980b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-ELNK-Trace: c552449649a8b16d1aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79a421169a4939e1c52ca0dc010af2fe42350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.227 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Originating-IP: 209.179.128.73 Subject: RE: re "exoteric/esoteric" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 June 1 2904 Re EXOTERIC AND ESOTERIC -- Do they meet ? Dear Mauri: Your analogy is good I think.=20 Sound and color are two good areas linked to each other if we consider the whole electro-magnetic spectrum of vibratory action in the known world of physics.=20=20 In this age, we devise ever more subtle apparatus and ways of registering and analysing the vibratory methods of recording and transmission that influence physical matter, near and far. I notice that in the electro-magnetic fields that penetrate everywhere, there is increasing attention paid to this phenomena and as time passes some of the early Theosophical predictions are now proving true, and accurate. Did you notic= e the SOHO presentations of vibratory waves emanated from our Sun -- in 7 different colors -- perhaps, for emphasis those are arbitrary enhancements, but they indicate at least 7 chief sources of energy that emanate from it? The "esoteric" and hitherto unknown, is made patent and exoteric -- as an example. Now with that knowledge what is to be done with it? I am waiting for that -- the use. We have OBE (Out of Body