From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 01:40:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24263 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 09:40:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 09:40:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 09:40:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2004 09:38:53 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 09:38:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <53.83d34ce.2d9c93fc@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 756 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.90 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 62.234.183.216 Subject: Re: Theos-World Salvation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker Dr Psionic, We need to save from our own karma. Trough the higher consiousness and intuition to harmonize in our lifes we overflow karma. Also we have the UNITY and in Unity there will not be any karma. So we need to recovery the original Unity. Christina --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > In a message dated 3/31/04 3:18:56 PM Central Standard Time, > christinaleestemaker@y... writes: > > << People expect an salvator for its own actions. > What is it that he or she still not can see, have the insight, that > he or she needs to be his own salvator.Therefore he needs to perfect > his consciousness. >> > > What they really need is to realize that there is nothing to be saved from. > > Chuck the Heretic From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Apr 01 02:10:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25702 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 10:06:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 10:06:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 10:06:41 -0000 Received: from versus (200-101-233-202.fnsce7004.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.101.233.202]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D6E60340C for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:05:38 -0300 (BRT) Message-ID: <003501c417d0$e4b637c0$0301010a@versus> To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:05:42 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.163 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Salvation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christina Thanks for the reply. Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: christinaleestemaker To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 6:17 PM Subject: Theos-World Salvation Yes Krishtar, and I see the same. People expect an salvator for its own actions. What is it that he or she still not can see, have the insight, that he or she needs to be his own salvator.Therefore he needs to perfect his consciousness. Christina --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krishtar" wrote: > Perhaps, save from ourselves. > I mean, from our lower ego, which insistently leads us, for example, to think of a redemption, a salvation, external to us. > > Krishtar > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: arielaretziel > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 8:58 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on himself > > > > > Whether Krishnamurti was overshadowed or not has little bearing in my mind, as > it is his teachings and, when he was alive, his very presence that have and > will always matter. Was he leaving Theosophy or was he leaving concepts such as > the erronius and dangerous concept of a world teacher who will save humanity? > > He wanted to help people be entirely free, but we must ask ourselves, "Free > from what?" > > A^A^ > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, samblo@c... wrote: > > Pedro, > > In all honesty, no, I am not familiar with the Krishnamurti quote you > > give to me and others. I candidly state that I have not read the works > > and publications of Krishnamurti. I have scant exposure to them. Even > > though I lived in LA for twenty years. I was aware that he lived at Ojai > > the Theosophical Retreat and even have several friends that had been to > > see him and have read his works which they valued highly. My post was > > limited to the Madison Square Garden. I do not think of Krishnamurti as > > responsible for the actions of Besant and leadbeater and I am grateful > > to him for his action then. I appreciate the spiritual altitude he has in > > his discourses that I have had exposure to and it is to his credit that he > > proceeded and became the unique figure in Theosophy that he did in > > the decades following the Madison Square Garden disaster. In one post > > it was said he left Theosophy but this contrasts his living at Ojai and the > > large following that he developed that thronged to him there. It is a very > > unusual context. The fact that Leadbeater and Besant groomed him from > > childhood for the role they planned has no mark on him in my view, it > > and remains their creation in the timeline. > > > > As to what he says in the quote, having not read his works I am without > > a defined understanding to just what he is stating in the reference and > > so I make no jump in speculation about it. you are welcome to expand > > on it if you desire. But from what he says it reminds me of Madame > > Blavatsky and many of the statements she made and I do find agreement > > with most of all he said with the sole exception of the ability to will the > > ordered controlled exit from the physical in the limit of the very > > advanced Adepts. Perhaps what is a monitor to the expression of Will > > concerns the Karmic residuals, my speculation here. > > > > John > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Apr 01 04:41:26 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 56854 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 12:41:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 12:41:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 12:41:25 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.2.) id r.12b.3e33b9bb (4568) for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:37:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <12b.3e33b9bb.2d9d6700@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 07:37:20 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.35 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Salvation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 4/1/04 3:41:52 AM Central Standard Time, christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com writes: << We need to save from our own karma. >> But you can't be. All you can do is ultimately reach a stage where it doesn't matter any more and that ain't gonna happen in this lifetime. Chuck the Heretic From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Apr 01 05:15:23 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76584 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 13:15:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 13:15:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 13:15:21 -0000 Received: from versus (200-180-076-209.bnut37001.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.180.76.209]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F8353525 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:14:13 -0300 (BRT) Message-ID: <00e701c417eb$3d95d700$0301010a@versus> To: References: <12b.3e33b9bb.2d9d6700@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 10:14:15 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 200.199.201.158 From: "krishtar" Subject: Re: Theos-World Salvation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chuck But you have to do your best, apply the most you can from the philosophy yo= u read and hear. Either you change your habits, points of view, whatever, or you become a h= ipocrite. When we are aware of how much we know intellectually and even so we continu= e to do the same mistakes, to act like blinded, is hipocrisy. Is like wasting knowledge, is like throwing our best books=B4 essense in th= e trash-can. This lifetime is all we=B4ve got to change and improve, Chuck, no matter ho= w skeptical you are about it. We cannot alter the past nor even foresee the future properly, but we have = the present.It=B4s our clue and key Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Drpsionic@aol.com=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 9:37 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Salvation In a message dated 4/1/04 3:41:52 AM Central Standard Time,=20 christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com writes: << We need to save from our own karma. >> But you can't be. All you can do is ultimately reach a stage where it=20 doesn't matter any more and that ain't gonna happen in this lifetime. Chuck the Heretic =20=20=20 Yahoo! Groups Links =20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 05:18:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 4624 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 13:18:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 13:18:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.99) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 13:18:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.115] by n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2004 13:13:52 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:13:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <12b.3e33b9bb.2d9d6700@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 411 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.99 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.226.12.93 Subject: Re: Theos-World Salvation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > But you can't be. All you can do is ultimately reach a stage where it > doesn't matter any more and that ain't gonna happen in this lifetime. You don't want that. I have reached a stage where nothing matters anymore and I would like to be back in a state of anguish. I want Angst. I want Sturm und Drang. That is why I belong to this list. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Apr 01 05:30:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 356 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 13:30:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 13:30:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (195.41.46.237) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 13:30:24 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x5358588e.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [83.88.88.142]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 13245262876 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:30:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <005701c417ed$a3e5c950$8e585853@khidr> To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:31:18 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.41.46.237 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Subject: Re: Theos-World The Perennial Wisdom: A Video on H. P. Blavatsky's Core Ideas of Theosophy X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo all, My views are: I wonder if Jerry would allow it to be put online the Internet for free viewing or limited viewing, so that we all may watch it - now that it is recommended and all ? from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 5:38 AM Subject: Theos-World The Perennial Wisdom: A Video on H. P. Blavatsky's Core Ideas of Theosophy > A highly recommended video on H.P. Blavatsky's > core teachings of Theosophy is: > > "The Perennial Wisdom: Fundamental Teachings of > H.P. Blavatsky" > 72 minute video with study guide > by April Hejka-Ekins > > For more details, see: > > http://www.theosophy.com/pw/index.html > > Daniel > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Apr 01 05:31:05 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86430 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 13:31:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 13:31:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (195.41.46.235) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 13:31:05 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x5358588e.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [83.88.88.142]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E276947FE48 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:30:50 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <005d01c417ed$be13c070$8e585853@khidr> To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:32:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.41.46.235 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Subject: Re: Theos-World (unknown) X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 I certainly agree ! M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: "walkinsnotwelcome" To: Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 5:50 AM Subject: Theos-World (unknown) > Somewhere in M. Sufilight's last post was an idea that I'll take and > alter somewhat. Is there any evidence that the leaders of the > Theosophical Society are in any working relationship with the > original Brotherhood of Adepts? Do they even claim to be? And how > much does it matter? If I knew these things I'd just tell you, > instead of using this irritating questioning mode. Though I do think > it matters. > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Apr 01 05:51:28 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 72315 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 13:51:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 13:51:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (195.41.46.236) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 13:51:22 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x5358588e.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [83.88.88.142]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id F358F5EE04E for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:50:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <00a101c417f0$51fe59b0$8e585853@khidr> To: References: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 15:50:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.41.46.236 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Subject: Re: Theos-World Daniel's Comments on Blavatsky's Quote X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Daniel and all, My views are: Why do you NOT want to express your stance on this quote ? I just don't understand you. Let us have the quote again (changed a bit) while we refer to Blavatsky's writings and her written material: "So very important: The use of ideas, FOR INSTANCE BOOKS and WRITTEN MATERIAL of ALL sorts is to shape a man or woman, not to support a system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in which the Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of ideas and movements - LIKE FOR INSTANCE THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY. This seems important to understand and know about." http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200210/tt00046.html (On what happened to The Theosophical Society when Blavatsky died.) What are your views on this quote Daniel ? A simple YES or NO would be allright. But that would maybe be too time consuming for you ? A have given a few comments in the below using *******. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 5:13 AM Subject: Theos-World Morten's 3 Comments on Blavatsky's Quote > Morten, > > In your latest email, you respond [in different extracts > below] to the Blavatsky quote found at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/15668 > > Your various comments I now give: > > COMMENT 1 > > "I do not say that the quote by Blavatsky and K.H. are > wrong. I just say, that one aught to relate such a > quote to our present situation --- with about 300 sects of > theosophists all claiming that they know it all...." > > COMMENT 2 > > "I say, it is not relevant today - just like that - > in a dead-letter sense." > > COMMENT 3 > > "I said somthing like that it was not valid in the > manner you presented it in in your email in question. > I said also, that we aught to relate OLD written > theosophical material to the time we live in." > > Morten, you have NOT actually > told us HOW we should relate such a quote to our > present situation. No details are given. ******* Yes I have. Read the previous email. It is not always possible to describe abstract issues in full detail. But it is often possible to tell people of their existence. And I have done that. ******* > > You have NOT described HOW it would > be relevant today in some NON dead-letter sense. > No details given. ******* I have talked about DESIGNs, the human reaction to written material and compared it to dead-letter reading with the head under the arm. Dead-letter reading to not relate the reading to the timespan between the time the material was written and the present day of reading it. I talked about the impact the written has upon the reader at a given time in history. And why the impact problably would be different today. The human reaction to a given DESIGN is often giving it a long-term or short-term impact. It also has a certain itensity and importance to the person. It is also a fact, that Sometimes this intensity or importance level has to do with when the material was written. Sometimes the authors original intentions with the written were not relating to a much later time period, where a new audience would read it. The fact that someone later twist the intentions with the written material so to make these intentions appear different, doesn't make such a view more true, does it ? And didn't you, Daniel, do that with both Blavatsky's and K.H.'s intentions in your presentation of the quotes in your email ? This was what originally started my answering emails. ******* > > You have NOT given the manner > in which the quote would be valid. No details given. ******* You must understand, that It is not always possible to describe abstract issues in full detail. ******* > > I give the quote again from Blavatsky's pen: > > ". . . A new and rapidly growing danger. . . is > threatening . . . the spread of the pure Esoteric > Philosophy and knowledge. . . . I allude to > those charlatanesque imitations of Occultism and > Theosophy. . . . By pandering to the prejudices > of people, and especially by adopting the false > ideas of a personal God and a personal, carnalized > Saviour, as the groundwork of their teaching, the > leaders of this 'swindle' (for such it is) are > endeavoring to draw men to them and in particular > to turn Theosophists from the true path." ******* She talked about issues belonging to her time of living. And yet she teaches, that dead-letter reading and writing is not really what we support. When she wrote the above she was NOT talking about those more than 300 theosophical sects, one less distorted than the other, which we today have floating around us, and which she feared would come into existence. She talked about issues belonging to her time. She was problably also referring to some of those Occult groups, which in fact existed just about at her time of writing. Certain Freemasons was floating around at that time, problably with ties to some politicians. This seems to one of the more obvious groups to refer to. She do not, in this quote, relate to my above quote on what have happened since Blavatsky died. And yet, she admit in her writings, that new teachings has araisen - suited theosophically to the public - during the past centuries. And that this will happen in the future as well I see no reason not to accept this view as a fact. I think think Blavatsky would agree upon this. I think that some of her statements (also the quote in mention) was done to secure the Theosophical Society and nurture it, so that the plan intentioned with it could sprout as much as possible. Because, at her time of writing TS was still very small - and new. She also said, that many theosophists were not members of the Theosophical Society. Today - with more than 300 sects, - the question will always be, which teaching is theosophical ? ******* > > ". . . A close examination will assuredly reveal. . . > materials largely stolen . . . from Theosophical > writings. . . [and] distorted and falsified so as > to be palmed off on the unwary as revelations of > new and undreamed of truths. But many will neither > have the time nor the opportunity for such a thorough > investigation; and before they become aware of the > imposture they may be led far from the Truth. . . . > Nothing is more dangerous to Esoteric Truth than the > garbled and distorted versions disfigured to suit > the prejudices and tastes of men in general." > > H. P. Blavatsky in "E.S. Instruction No. I.", 1889. > Quoted from: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/ests1p2.htm > > I will now tell you my understanding of what Blavatsky wrote. > > I take it that Blavatsky when she refers to "a personal, > carnalized Saviour" is referring to certain teachings > concerning the Christ. > > And I believe that one can see what Blavatsky is actually getting out > by comparing the above quote with the following two extracts > from Blavatsky: > > ". . . 'the coming of Christ,' means the presence of CHRISTOS in a > regenerated world, and not at all the actual coming in body > of 'Christ' Jesus; . . . for Christ--the true esoteric SAVIOUR-- > is no man, but the DIVINE PRINCIPLE in every human being." > > "Whether it be Krishna, Buddha, Sosiosh, Horus or Christos, it is a > universal PRINCIPLE....the Christians, by localizing and isolating > this great Principle, and denying it to any other man except Jesus of > Nazareth (or the Nazar), CARNALIZE the Christos of the Gnostics; that > alone prevents them having any point in common with the disciples of > the Archaic Wisdom. . . true Theosophists will never accept ...a > Christ made Flesh. . . ." > > Therefore I suggest that Theosophical writers who write as Bailey did > the following extracts are giving out (as HPB phrased it) "false > ideas". ******* The is a false suggestion. You will have to make a better argumentation. Try reading the following page and the next few pages carefully: "The Reappearance of Christ" by Alice A. Bailey (Chapter 1). http://beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/reappearance/reap1001.html And also "The Reappearance of Christ" by Alice A. Bailey, page 144-145: "The Eastern faiths have ever emphasized God Immanent, deep within the human heart, "nearer than hands and feet," the Self, the One, the Atma, smaller than the small, yet all-comprehensive. The Western faiths have presented God Transcendent, outside His universe, an Onlooker. God transcendent, first of all, conditioned men's concept of Deity, for the action of this transcendent God appeared in the processes of nature; later, in the Jewish [145] dispensation, God appeared as the tribal Jehovah, as the soul (the rather unpleasant soul) of a nation. Next, God was seen as a perfected man, and the divine God-man walked the Earth in the Person of Christ. Today we have a rapidly growing emphasis upon God immanent in every human being and in every created form. Today, we should have the churches presenting a synthesis of these two ideas which have been summed up for us in the statement of Shri Krishna in The Bhagavad Gita: "Having pervaded this whole Universe with a fragment of Myself, I remain." God, greater than the created whole, yet God present also in the part; God Transcendent guarantees the plan for our world and is the Purpose, conditioning all lives from the minutest atom, up through all the kingdoms of nature, to man." http://beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/reappearance/reap1042.html (Many readers could with great advantage substitute the word Christ with the words Avatar while reading the above book. Dead-letter reading is not so good. And true, this is better: Do not just read Bailey's books and then forget about the Secret Doctrine and the estern doctrine on Atma=Brahman or the not-I-not teachings.) --- The use of words in theosophical books are also related to the time of writing, the circumstances, the audience and the purpose with the book. --- Bhagavad Gita chapter IV, 7-9: "When Righteousness Declines, O Bharata! when Wickedness Is strong, I rise, from age to age, and take Visible shape, and move a man with men, Succouring the good, thrusting the evil back, And setting Virtue on her seat again. Who knows the truth touching my births on earth And my divine work, when he quits the flesh Puts on its load no more, falls no more down To earthly birth: to Me he comes, dear Prince!" http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/gita/bg04.htm (The Sir Edwin Arnold - edition) The Secret Doctrine vol. 2, page 44: --- "With the Jews Adam Kadmon was the same as Athamaz, Tamaz, or the Adonis of the Greeks -- "the One with, and of his father" -- the "Father" becoming during the later Races Helios, the Sun, as Apollo Karneios,*"... * Apollo Karneios is certainly a Greek transformation from the Hindu Krishna Karna. "Karna" means radiant from "carne," "a ray," and Karneios, which was a title of Apollo with the Celts as with the Greeks, meant "Sun born." --- Bailey's problem is mainly today, apart from her phallic use of words about Christ and God, that her books attracts only a certain audience with a certain cultural background. Even Blavatsky's writings did that. But their purpose and audience was different then and also today, because it was a different time they were written in and with a different purpose in mind. Try this one on "Characteristics of Theosophical Litterature": http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/char_lit.htm Do you find that link to be allright or do you disagree with it as well ? Something new is needed from time to time. (Also to open up the possibility, that more people would be interested in HPB's activities.) ******* > > "They will prepare and work for conditions in the world in which > Christ can move freely among men, in bodily Presence; He need not > then remain in His present retreat in Central Asia." ******* The word "Christ" used by Bailey should not be used in a dead-letter sense. It has more than one meaning. Try reading the Bailey books more carefully. She uses the word in a sense, so to make the newcomers learn, that their more ordinary view of Christ is in fact not acceptable. The reappaerance will be a reappearance of an Avatar - a true Krishna. The sad fact, that some Bailey groups misuse her writings cannot be said to be Bailey's fault. (An inserted comment: We may wonder why Christ - the Avatar had to incarnate in the area of Jerusalem and if this had anything to do with the evils done by Hitler and his hand in the creation of the state of Israel ? The problem is, as I see it, that almost anything Good has the sideeffect, that someone misunderstands it and some evils happen because of it.) ******* > > "His reappearance and His consequent work cannot be confined to one > small locality or domain, unheard of by the great majority, as was > the case when He was here before. The radio, the press, and the > dissemination of news, will make His coming different to that of any > previous Messenger; the swift modes of transportation will make Him > available to countless millions, and by boat, rail and plane they can > reach Him: through television, His face can be made familiar to all, > and verily 'every eye shall see Him." > > Let each student decide for himself. > > And Morten, feel free to characterize my understanding as > "dead letter" or whatever. But you should give in turn > your detailed explanation of how we should REALLY understand > what HPB wrote. ******* Perhaps I should not. This was not quite what I emailed you about. I emailed about how - you - related OLD written material to our time in a manner, which was taken out of context. You have your view or your theosophical 'sect'. And I have my view or 'sect' if you like. And there we are again. Can the blind lead the blind ? Was Blavatsky not quite right when she in her article "PSEUDO-THEOSOPHY" feared that more than 300 theosophical sects would be created ? And again you tell me yours is the right one, without answering my questions in the previous email ? I think, I know where you are now. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ******* group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/ > > > > From ananda_hotai@hotmail.com Thu Apr 01 06:24:41 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: ananda_hotai@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24934 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 14:24:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 14:24:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.47.4) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 14:24:33 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 06:24:22 -0800 Received: from 66.141.67.27 by by9fd.bay9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:24:22 GMT X-Originating-Email: [ananda_hotai@hotmail.com] X-Sender: ananda_hotai@hotmail.com To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:24:22 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2004 14:24:22.0929 (UTC) FILETIME=[07403010:01C417F5] X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.4.47.4 From: "Ali Hassan" X-Originating-IP: [66.141.67.27] Subject: Re: Theos-World Salvation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=664600 X-Yahoo-Profile: ali_haq_hassan >From: Drpsionic@aol.com >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: Theos-World Salvation >Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 01:02:06 EST > >In a message dated 3/31/04 6:01:41 PM Central Standard Time, >global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: > ><< Arrrh I think you would agree, that a Heretic might be handy ? >> > >I hope so, otherwise I'm wasting a good incarnation. > >Chuck the Heretic famous last words- regards- Ali _________________________________________________________________ Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar – FREE! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 07:38:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53595 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 15:38:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 15:38:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.104) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 15:38:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.138] by n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2004 15:37:52 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:37:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7357 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.104 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: MODERN APOSTLES AND PSEUDO-MESSIAHS by H.P. Blavatsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell MODERN APOSTLES AND PSEUDO-MESSIAHS by H.P. Blavatsky [Selected extracts from the article first published in Lucifer, July, 1890.] There has probably never been a period within our recollection more given to the production of "great missions" and missionaries than the present. . . . With the spread of the spiritualistic cult, the Messiah craze has vastly increased, and men and women alike have been involved in its whirlpools. Given, a strong desire to reform somehow the religious or social aspect of the world, a personal hatred of certain of its aspects, and a belief in visions and messages, and the result was sure; the "Messiah" arose with a universal panacea for the ills of mankind. If he (very often she) did not make the claim, it was made for him. Carried away by the magnetic force, the eloquence, the courage, the single idea of the apostle pro tem, numbers, for very varied reasons, accepted him or her as the revelator of the hour and of all time. . . . No one denies that there are aspects of Spiritualism which have been useful in some ways. With this, however, we have nothing to do. We are pointing now to the way in which it has accentuated a common illusion. . . . To distinguish the white rays of truth from influx from the astral sphere, requires a training which ordinary sensitives, whether avowed spiritualists or not, do not possess. Ignorance emboldens, and the weak will always worship the bold. Some of these apostles denounce alike Spiritualism and Theosophy; some accept the latter, but weave it anew into a version of their own; and some have apparently arisen, independently of any other cult, through the force of their own or somebody else's conviction. No one can doubt the poetical nature of the inspiration of Thomas Lake Harris. He had an intellectual head and a heart for poetry. Had he kept clear of great claims, he would have ranked at least as a man of literary ability, and a reformer with whom other reformers would wish to shake hands.. . . But the assumption of personal privilege and authority over others, and "affinity" theories, have stranded him on a barren shore. There is an avowed re-incarnation of Buddha in the United States, and an avowed re-incarnation of Christ. Both have followers; both have been interviewed and said their best. They and others like unto them have had signs, illuminations, knowledge not common to men, and events pointing in a marked way to this their final destiny. There has even been a whisper here and there of supernatural births. But they lacked the clear-seeing eye which could reduce these facts to their right order, and interpret them aright. . . .And the result is sorry to behold, for each seems to be putting the crown upon his own head. If Theosophy had done nothing else, it would have made a demand on human gratitude in placing the truth and falsehood of these psychic experiences, unfoldments, or delusions as the case might be, plainly before the people, and explaining their rationale. It showed a plane of manhood, and proved it unassailably to a number of persons, which transcends any powers or capacities of the inspirational psychic who may imagine himself or herself to be a messenger to the world at large. It placed personal purity on a level which barred out nine-tenths of these claimants from all thought of their presumed inheritance, and showed that such a condition of purity, far transcending any popular ideal of such virtue, was the absolute and all-essential basis of spiritual insight and attainment. It swept the ground from under the feet of those poor men and women who had been listening to the so-called messages from the angels, that they were the chosen of heaven, and were to accomplish world-wide missions. The Joan of Arcs, the Christs, the Buddhas, the Michaels, were fain to see truths they had not dreamed of, and gifts they had never possessed, exercised in silence and with potent force by men whose names were unknown even to history, and recognised only by hidden disciples, or their peers. Something higher was placed before the sight of these eager reformers than fame: it was truth. Something higher than the most purified union between even one man and one woman in the most spiritual of sympathies, was shown; it was the immortal union of the soul of man with God. Wherever Theosophy spreads, there it is impossible for the deluded to mislead, or the deluded to follow. It opens a new path, a forgotten philosophy which has lived through the ages, a knowledge of the psychic nature of man, which reveals alike the true status of the Catholic saint, and the spiritualistic medium the Church condemns. It gathers reformers together, throws light on their way, and teaches them how to work towards a desirable end with most effect, but forbids any to assume a crown or sceptre, and no less delivers from a futile crown of thorns. Mesmerisms and astral influences fall back, and the sky grows clear enough for higher light. It hushes the "Lo here! and lo there!" and declares the Christ, like the kingdom of heaven, to be within. It guards and applies every aspiration and capacity to serve humanity in any man, and shows him how. It overthrows the giddy pedestal, and safely cares for the human being on solid ground. Hence, in this way, and in all other ways, it is the truest deliverer and saviour of our time. To enumerate the various "Messiahs" and their beliefs and works would fill volumes. It is needless. When claims conflict, all, on the face of it, cannot be true. Some have taught less error than others. It is almost the only distinction. And some have had fine powers imperilled and paralyzed by leadings they did not understand. Of one thing, rationally-minded people, apart from Theosophists, may be sure. And that is, service for humanity is its all-sufficient reward; and that empty jars are the most resonant of sound. To know a very little of the philosophy of life, of man's power to redeem wrongs and to teach others, to perceive how to thread the tangled maze of existence on this globe, and to accomplish aught of lasting and spiritual benefit, is to annihilate all desire or thought of posing as a heaven-sent saviour of the people. For a very little self-knowledge is a leveller indeed, and more democratic than the most ultra-radical can desire. The best practical reformers of the outside abuses we have known, such as slavery, deprivation of the rights of woman, legal tyrannies, oppressions of the poor, have never dreamed of posing as Messiahs. Honor, worthless as it is, followed them unsought, for a tree is known by its fruits, and to this day "their works do follow them." . . . With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, and sees its doom. For if it teaches, or has taught, one thing more plainly than another, it is that the "first shall be last, and the last first." And in the face of genuine spiritual growth, and true illumination, the Theosophist grows in power to most truly befriend and help his fellows, while he becomes the most humble, the most silent, the most guarded of men. Saviours to their race, in a sense, have lived and will live. Rarely has one been known. Rare has been the occasion when thus to be known has been either expedient or possible. Therefore, fools alone will rush in "where angels fear to tread." From Drpsionic@aol.com Thu Apr 01 09:31:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64663 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 17:30:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 17:30:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 17:30:01 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.2.) id r.142.25ddc96c (4568) for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:21:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <142.25ddc96c.2d9da9ac@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:21:48 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.36 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Salvation X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 4/1/04 7:22:13 AM Central Standard Time, stevestubbs@yahoo.com writes: << You don't want that. I have reached a stage where nothing matters anymore and I would like to be back in a state of anguish. I want Angst. I want Sturm und Drang. That is why I belong to this list. >> You too!?!?!? Here I thought I was the only one. Chuck the Heretic From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 10:05:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35098 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 18:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 18:05:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 18:05:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.179] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Apr 2004 18:04:14 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:04:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1808 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.83 From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.238 Subject: Re: T.S. and the "Masters" these days X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "walkinsnotwelcome" wrote: > There was an idea in M. Sufilight's last posting that I'm altering > here. Is there any evidence that the leadership of the Theosophical > Society is in a working relationship with the original Brotherhood of > Adepts? Do they even claim to be ? And does it matter? If I knew I'd > just tell you, instead of using this irritating questioning mode, > which isn't intended to be rhetorical. Though I do think it matters. Hi, My faulty memory may not be much help here, but if I recall correctly Gregory Tillett asked Radha this question outright and she answered in the negative. Even if my memory is correct on this, I'm not sure that the same answer would be given within the sanctum sanctorum of the ES. Similarly, I think I recall Grace Knoche saying no to this question in print, but this public reply might not be taken as final by her most ardent admirers. That answers your second question. As to #1-- what would constitute evidence? And #3-- "matters" is not an objective judgment; things don't "matter" in a vacuum but *to* someone or some group of people. Who is or isn't in communication with the Brotherhood matters immensely to many Theosophists and has the source of endless debate for more than a century. By contrast, more basic questions about said Brotherhood (e.g. does it exist and what is it exactly) hardly receive any consideration and remain in the realm of unquestioned (unquestionable) assumptions. Kinda like "salvation" with Christians, who have argued for centuries about who has it, with little serious examination of what it is exactly and what evidence they have for believing in it. Paul PS-- Greg posts here from time to time and might comment if asked. From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Apr 01 10:10:42 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 403 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 18:10:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 18:10:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 18:10:40 -0000 Received: from [199.243.59.151] (helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B96eE-0003ua-E6 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:10:38 +0000 Message-ID: <406C5C20.2020304@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:14:56 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: <000b01c41687$4bac8510$9b0df4d8@DALLAS> <003001c416ae$a29aefc0$8e585853@khidr> <000201c41785$24a68ac0$6d99b2d1@u7k5a4> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on phi.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=7.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.125 From: Mauri Subject: Re: Theos-World Morten: "Baileys books...can be said to be WELL-INTENTIONED." X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Dennis wrote partly: <>>>> Seems there's no end to interpretations ... Speculatively, Mauri From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Apr 01 11:09:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64639 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 19:09:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 19:09:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 19:09:42 -0000 Received: from [199.243.58.48] (helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1B97ZL-0007D8-SB for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 19:09:40 +0000 Message-ID: <406C6A01.1050504@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:14:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on omega.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=7.0 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.63 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.1 (built Tue Feb 24 05:09:27 GMT 2004) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.136.80.9 From: Mauri Subject: re "TS and the 'Masters' these days" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Paul wrote partly: <>> Seems to me that in the context of "serious examinations" re who, how, when re such as "Masters" and esotericy topics in general there might tend to be (as you might know, Paul ...) various opinions going around out there about how such "serious examinations" should be defined, (or "more-specifically defnined," say ...) to begin with. How would I defnine "serious examinations"? The short answer is: speculatively (which might not say much, but I seem to have found out that, on these lists, interpretations tend to be all over the map regardless of what is said, or how it's said, by whoever, apparently, often times). But if all those interpretations make one "think," at least ... Then again if I knew how "think" "should be defnined" in various contexts maybe I wouldn't be speculating in the first place. ^:-/ ... Mauri From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Apr 01 12:05:02 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70152 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2004 20:04:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2004 20:04:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2004 20:04:57 -0000 Received: from wbar2.nyc1-4.14.24.178.nyc1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.14.24.178] helo=sprynet.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1B98Qq-0002ky-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:04:56 -0800 Message-ID: <406C7605.8090108@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:05:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.62 From: Bart Lidofsky Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: T.S. and the "Masters" these days X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 kpauljohnson wrote: > My faulty memory may not be much help here, but if I recall > correctly Gregory Tillett asked Radha this question outright and she > answered in the negative. Even if my memory is correct on this, I'm > not sure that the same answer would be given within the sanctum > sanctorum of the ES. I have a friend in the ES, with whom I have discussed a number of ES matters in detail (including my contention that being a member of the clergy in the LCC should disqualify one from membership in the ES, as women are excluded from the management of temporal affairs of the LCC). There are certain things he says he is not allowed to talk about, and I am certain that he would say that rather than lie. He says that there is NO current communication with any of the Mahatmas as far as he knows, and as far as he believes. Bart Bart From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 16:46:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78430 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 00:46:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 00:46:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 00:46:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.146] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2004 00:46:01 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:46:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2621 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.65 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.227.123.29 Subject: Re: T.S. and the "Masters" these days X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson" wrote: > My faulty memory may not be much help here, but if I recall > correctly Gregory Tillett asked Radha this question outright and she > answered in the negative. Even if my memory is correct on this, I'm > not sure that the same answer would be given within the sanctum > sanctorum of the ES. Similarly, I think I recall Grace Knoche > saying no to this question in print, but this public reply might not > be taken as final by her most ardent admirers. I doubt this is true anymore, but years ago when the Rosicrucians were run by Ralph M. Lewis, and especially before that when it was run by his father H. Spencer Lewis, the claim was made that the leaders were in contact with the Masters and that advanced students could in some cases be taken under their tutelage as well. In fact, being accepted as a chela was the end result aimed at by their course of instruction. Membership did not guarantee chelaship, but a few advanced members did claim to have been initiated. These claims were ridiculed by Manly P. Hall, but I think without sufficient justification. > Kinda like "salvation" > with Christians, who have argued for centuries about who has it, > with little serious examination of what it is exactly and what > evidence they have for believing in it. Excellent point. "Salvation" is a totally meaningless concept today, but in sncient times it seems to have meant an ongoing connection with the Higher Self. Readers of Plato (esp. THE SYMPOSIUM and THE APOLOGY) will remember that Socrates was advised by an inner voice he referred to as his daimonium (usually referred to as daemon.) In an effort to discredit Socrates the word "dasemon" was redefined to mean "evil spirit" and the original meaning of "salvation" fell away, It is notable that the "daemon" of Socrates is what was referred to in the OT as a "familiar spirit", the possession of which ws punishable by death under Mosaic law. Being cut off from communication with the Higher Self was therefore thought to be an excellent thing by the most ancient of Jews, although one could wonder whether they were against mystical experience or charlatanry. According to the views of later mystics, some of the crimes they committed, such as pillaging Egypt and destroying the Canaanites, would have caused them to have the spiritual isolation they so much desired. Yet Elijah, with his "still small voice" seems to have broken with that tradition. Anyway, that should answer all the questions implied in your statement. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 16:46:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8606 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 00:23:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 00:23:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 00:23:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.115] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2004 00:23:34 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:23:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <406C7605.8090108@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 597 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.66 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.227.123.29 Subject: Theos-World Re: T.S. and the "Masters" these days X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > I have a friend in the ES, with whom I have discussed a number of ES > matters in detail ... > He says that there is > NO current communication with any of the Mahatmas as far as he knows, > and as far as he believes. Two questions: (1) if that is true (and I do not doubt that it is) then why does the ES exist? and (2) how is it that some theosophists are in the ES and others are not? How do they decide who gets in? I think your answers to both of those will be of general interest to others as well as to me. From dennw3k@earthlink.net Thu Apr 01 16:56:17 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54133 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 00:44:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 00:44:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 00:44:43 -0000 Received: from pool0338.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.227.83] helo=u7k5a4) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1B9CnV-0004IX-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:44:38 -0800 Message-ID: <000301c4184d$6e378fe0$53e3b3d1@u7k5a4> To: References: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 17:52:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.22 From: "Dennis Kier" Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on himself X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 In my opinion, he had a message to give, and something to accomplish. If he had stayed within the Theosophical Organization, he would have continually been asked about the Masters, HPB, and all that. It would have made his message much more difficult to give out, and obscured what he was doing. The best way for him to get on with his own task was to break with the Theosophical Organizations, not talk about them, and do what he felt that he had to do. The various biographies tell of the task he had to accomplish, and the processes that were going on with the body to make it suitable for the communication process by whatever entities were using it. So, he had his own personal life to live, and he had another octave of existence where he was a creature of other concourses, and had to provide a vehicle for their purposes. It is an interesting study of reality. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "arielaretziel" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 3:58 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on himself > > > Whether Krishnamurti was overshadowed or not has little bearing in my mind, as > it is his teachings and, when he was alive, his very presence that have and > will always matter. Was he leaving Theosophy or was he leaving concepts such as > the erronius and dangerous concept of a world teacher who will save humanity? > > He wanted to help people be entirely free, but we must ask ourselves, "Free > from what?" > > A^A^ From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 17:50:40 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20563 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 01:50:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 01:50:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40903.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.200) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 01:50:39 -0000 Message-ID: <20040402015038.25375.qmail@web40903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:50:38 PST Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 17:50:38 -0800 (PST) To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.78.200 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" Subject: Our Inner Constitution • Psychism • Life After Death • Reincarnation: Online and Printed Sources X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable H.P. Blavatsky's Writings & Teachings:Online and Printed Sources =20 See our new web page titled: =20 Our Inner Constitution =95 Psychism =95 Life After Death =95 Reincarnati= on=20 =20 at: =20 http://www.theosophy.info/blavatskypsychicetc.htm =20 or =20 http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/blavatskypsychicetc.htm =20 Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm -------------------------------------------------------------- "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2 -------------------------------------------------------------- You can always access our main site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc See also THEOSOPHY: FROM LONG-SEALED ANCIENT FOUNTAINS http://www.theosophy.info/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 17:54:14 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30204 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 01:54:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 01:54:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web41510.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.93.93) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 01:54:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20040402015412.59163.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.28.48.79] by web41510.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Apr 2004 17:54:12 PST Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 17:54:12 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.93.93 From: Pedro Oliveira Subject: where are the "Masters"? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira If HPB was not a hypocrite, if it is true that almost two dozens of individuals around that time (1880s), and independently of her, either saw or corresponded with her Teachers, then what she wrote on the subject of their existence could be considered, objectively, as a testimony of someone who knew. Affiliation to outer organisations, whatever they are, imo, does not necessarily entitles one to know the truth about this subject. "A MAHATMA is a personage, who, by special training and education, has evolved those higher faculties and has attained that spiritual knowledge, which ordinary humanity will acquire after passing through numberless series of re-incarnations during the process of cosmic evolution, provided, of course, that they do not go, in the meanwhile, against the purposes of Nature and thus bring on their own annihilation... The real MAHATMA is then not his physical body but that higher Manas which is inseparably linked to the Atma and its vehicle (the 6th principle) — a union effected by him in a comparatively very short period by passing through the process of self-evolution laid down by the Occult Philosophy. When, therefore, people express a desire to “see a MAHATMA,” they really do not seem to understand what it is they ask for. How can they, by their physical eyes, hope to see that which transcends that sight? Is it the body—a mere shell or mask—they crave or hunt after? And supposing they see the body of a MAHATMA, how can they know that behind that mask is concealed an exalted entity? By what standard are they to judge whether the Maya before them reflects the image of a true MAHATMA or not? And who will say that the physical is not a Maya? Higher things can be perceived only by a sense pertaining to those higher things. And whoever therefore wants to see the real MAHATMA, must use his intellectual sight. He must so elevate his Manas that its perception will be clear and all mists created by Maya must be dispelled. His vision will then be bright and he will see the MAHATMA wherever he may be, for, being merged into the sixth and the seventh principles, which are ubiquitous and omnipresent, the MAHATMAS may be said to be everywhere." ("Mahatmas and Chelas", BCW, vol. 6) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 18:03:19 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53767 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 02:03:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 02:03:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 02:03:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.124] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2004 02:03:13 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:03:11 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20040402015412.59163.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3050 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.84 From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.238 Subject: Re: where are the "Masters"? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Pedro Oliveira =20 wrote: > If HPB was not a hypocrite, if it is true that almost > two dozens of individuals around that time (1880s), > and independently of her, either saw or corresponded > with her Teachers, then what she wrote on the subject > of their existence could be considered, objectively, > as a testimony of someone who knew. Dear Pedro, So far, I have appreciated your contributions here, and don't wish=20 to be antagonistic. But I feel obliged to point out that you are=20 conflating two issues here: 1. Evidence that others saw or corresponded with individuals who=20 were teachers of H. P. Blavatsky. 2. Evidence that anyone ever saw or corresponded with individuals=20 who bore all the stigmata attributed to "Mahatmas" in Theosophical=20 literature. BIG DIFFERENCE IGNORED BY THEOSOPHISTS, GENERALLY. Cheers, KPJ Affiliation to > outer organisations, whatever they are, imo, does not > necessarily entitles one to know the truth about this > subject.=20 >=20 > "A MAHATMA is a personage, who, by special training > and education, has evolved those higher faculties and > has attained that spiritual knowledge, which ordinary > humanity will acquire after passing through numberless > series of re-incarnations during the process of cosmic > evolution, provided, of course, that they do not go, > in the meanwhile, against the purposes of Nature and > thus bring on their own annihilation... The real > MAHATMA is then not his physical body but that higher > Manas which is inseparably linked to the Atma and its > vehicle (the 6th principle) =97 a union effected by him > in a comparatively very short period by passing > through the process of self-evolution laid down by the > Occult Philosophy. When, therefore, people express a > desire to "see a MAHATMA," they really do not seem to > understand what it is they ask for. How can they, by > their physical eyes, hope to see that which transcends > that sight? Is it the body=97a mere shell or mask=97they > crave or hunt after? And supposing they see the body > of a MAHATMA, how can they know that behind that mask > is concealed an exalted entity? By what standard are > they to judge whether the Maya before them reflects > the image of a true MAHATMA or not? And who will say > that the physical is not a Maya? Higher things can be > perceived only by a sense pertaining to those higher > things. And whoever therefore wants to see the real > MAHATMA, must use his intellectual sight. He must so > elevate his Manas that its perception will be clear > and all mists created by Maya must be dispelled. His > vision will then be bright and he will see the MAHATMA > wherever he may be, for, being merged into the sixth > and the seventh principles, which are ubiquitous and > omnipresent, the MAHATMAS may be said to be > everywhere." ("Mahatmas and Chelas", BCW, vol. 6) >=20 > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway=20 > http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/ From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 18:28:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60729 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 02:28:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 02:28:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 02:28:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2004 02:27:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:27:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1271 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.76 From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 Subject: A Casebook of Encounters with the Theosophical Mahatmas X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Pedro, You write: "If HPB was not a hypocrite, if it is true that almost two dozens of individuals around that time (1880s), and independently of her, either saw or corresponded with her Teachers, then what she wrote on the subject of their existence could be considered, objectively, as a testimony of someone who knew." If some readers are not aware of the testimonies given by these individuals that you mention, see: A Casebook of Encounters with the Theosophical Mahatmas at: http://www.theosophy.info/mastersencounterswith.htm or http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/mastersencounterswith.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm -------------------------------------------------------------- "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2 -------------------------------------------------------------- You can always access our main site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc See also THEOSOPHY: FROM LONG-SEALED ANCIENT FOUNTAINS http://www.theosophy.info/ From prmoliveira@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 19:34:48 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: prmoliveira@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38259 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 03:34:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 03:34:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.104) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 03:34:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.177] by n36.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2004 03:34:38 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:34:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2700 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.104 From: "prmoliveira" X-Originating-IP: 203.28.48.76 Subject: Re: where are the "Masters"? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39079617 X-Yahoo-Profile: prmoliveira --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson" wrote: >you are > conflating two issues here: > 1. Evidence that others saw or corresponded with individuals who > were teachers of H. P. Blavatsky. > 2. Evidence that anyone ever saw or corresponded with individuals > who bore all the stigmata attributed to "Mahatmas" in Theosophical > literature. > > BIG DIFFERENCE IGNORED BY THEOSOPHISTS, GENERALLY. Thank you for the reply, Paul. In a way, most of us (myself included) who write about this subject ("Masters") are outsiders. I don't use the word in any derogatory sense. It just means that we don't have first hand experience of the subject-matter. In your book ("The Masters Revealed") you developed an interesting hypothesis about the identity of the "Masters", but in order to do that you had either to ignore or treat in a cursory manner important pieces of evidence that frontally contradict your hypothesis. For example, your treatment of the question 'Who wrote the Mahatma Letters' falls exactly in this category. It quotes a late book by Sinnett but fails to examine what he said in "The Occult World" which based in his correspondence with K.H., for example. In short, you did not take into account the clear, historical evidences from that time (1880s), coming from a number of members of the TS, both from India as well as from the US and Europe. Another important source of testimonial evidence are HPB's letters to Sinnett. The deep sense of sacredness which is present in her attitude and devotion to her Teacher impressed not only Sinnett and his wife, Patience, but many a member of the TS. She made clear that her entire life was dedicated to his work. To think of HPB as a "maha" master manipulator, psychologising influential members of the TS in order for them to believe in "Mahatmas" when no Mahatmas existed, is at least to belittle the enormity of her dedicated service to humanity. (I am fully aware that the expression "dedicated service" is not a technical category, but it is an important theosophical principle notheless.) There is also a larger, historical source of evidence, which HPB also pointed to, in the fact that Adepts, Seers, Sages, Initiates, Mystics and Yogis did exist in every age. She did not invent them. And perhaps this is of the difficulties in dealing with this subject: the existence of the Mahatmas or Adepts is an integral part of the tradition of Occultism (gupta-vidya) that HPB made widely available through her writings. And as they themselves said, they are the product of a "generation of enquirers". Perhaps we who talk about it and speculate are just outsiders. Pedro From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Apr 01 19:53:00 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39647 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 03:52:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 03:52:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n40.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.108) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 03:52:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.120] by n40.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2004 03:52:41 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:52:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20040402015412.59163.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1038 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.108 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.225.162.243 Subject: Re: where are the "Masters"? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Pedro Oliveira wrote: > If HPB was not a hypocrite, if it is true that almost > two dozens of individuals around that time (1880s), > and independently of her, either saw or corresponded > with her Teachers, then what she wrote on the subject > of their existence could be considered, objectively, > as a testimony of someone who knew. Affiliation to > outer organisations, whatever they are, imo, does not > necessarily entitles one to know the truth about this > subject. Well, you have me confused there. I am not a chela, and therefore do not claim to "know the truth about this subject." Those who are certainly know more about it than I do, and possibly even more than you do. That seems to be implied in your first statements. I do believe Paul is right when he says the TS is completely out of touch with the GWB. Regrettably I do not know who they are currently using as a channel, but it does appear they have selected channels since the death of Blavatsky. From zolarczakl@netzero.com Thu Apr 01 20:47:27 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: zolarczakl@netzero.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97957 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 04:47:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 04:47:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 04:47:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.132] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2004 04:47:11 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 04:47:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 550 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.81 From: "walkinsnotwelcome" X-Originating-IP: 205.188.116.80 Subject: Re: T.S. and the "Masters" these days X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=157267155 X-Yahoo-Profile: walkinsnotwelcome Paul, Bart, thanks for responding. I know there are issues such as, "Was that a really universal Brotherhood they were involved with, or just one particular occult lodge?", but I wanted to find out about something simpler and shallower. If they're no longer in any vital relationship with that organization, I wonder how long this has been true? It would be a surprise to a lot of their members, I'd guess; they should let everybody know, stick a note in The Messenger or something. "By the way, Kuthumi hasn't returned our calls since 1934". From raghu_k@alfinance.com Thu Apr 01 22:49:50 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32875 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 06:49:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 06:49:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO alfinance.com) (202.91.64.210) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 06:49:46 -0000 Received: from itrwte01 [172.16.8.21] by alfinance.com [127.0.0.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.PRO.v5.0.0.R) for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2004 12:17:09 +0530 To: Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 12:17:07 +0530 Message-ID: <001401c4187e$518568a0$150810ac@ALFITR01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <00a101c417f0$51fe59b0$8e585853@khidr> Importance: Normal X-MDRemoteIP: 172.16.8.21 X-Return-Path: raghu_k@alfinance.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 202.91.64.210 From: "Raghu K" Reply-To: Subject: expecting others to be perfect / right ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=155869969 is it ego to expect people to be perfect ? Anybody please clarify. Raghu Seshadri. -----Original Message----- From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 7:20 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Daniel's Comments on Blavatsky's Quote Hallo Daniel and all, My views are: Why do you NOT want to express your stance on this quote ? I just don't understand you. Let us have the quote again (changed a bit) while we refer to Blavatsky's writings and her written material: "So very important: The use of ideas, FOR INSTANCE BOOKS and WRITTEN MATERIAL of ALL sorts is to shape a man or woman, not to support a system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in which the Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of ideas and movements - LIKE FOR INSTANCE THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY. This seems important to understand and know about." http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200210/tt00046.html (On what happened to The Theosophical Society when Blavatsky died.) What are your views on this quote Daniel ? A simple YES or NO would be allright. But that would maybe be too time consuming for you ? A have given a few comments in the below using *******. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 5:13 AM Subject: Theos-World Morten's 3 Comments on Blavatsky's Quote > Morten, > > In your latest email, you respond [in different extracts > below] to the Blavatsky quote found at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/15668 > > Your various comments I now give: > > COMMENT 1 > > "I do not say that the quote by Blavatsky and K.H. are > wrong. I just say, that one aught to relate such a > quote to our present situation --- with about 300 sects of > theosophists all claiming that they know it all...." > > COMMENT 2 > > "I say, it is not relevant today - just like that - > in a dead-letter sense." > > COMMENT 3 > > "I said somthing like that it was not valid in the > manner you presented it in in your email in question. > I said also, that we aught to relate OLD written > theosophical material to the time we live in." > > Morten, you have NOT actually > told us HOW we should relate such a quote to our > present situation. No details are given. ******* Yes I have. Read the previous email. It is not always possible to describe abstract issues in full detail. But it is often possible to tell people of their existence. And I have done that. ******* > > You have NOT described HOW it would > be relevant today in some NON dead-letter sense. > No details given. ******* I have talked about DESIGNs, the human reaction to written material and compared it to dead-letter reading with the head under the arm. Dead-letter reading to not relate the reading to the timespan between the time the material was written and the present day of reading it. I talked about the impact the written has upon the reader at a given time in history. And why the impact problably would be different today. The human reaction to a given DESIGN is often giving it a long-term or short-term impact. It also has a certain itensity and importance to the person. It is also a fact, that Sometimes this intensity or importance level has to do with when the material was written. Sometimes the authors original intentions with the written were not relating to a much later time period, where a new audience would read it. The fact that someone later twist the intentions with the written material so to make these intentions appear different, doesn't make such a view more true, does it ? And didn't you, Daniel, do that with both Blavatsky's and K.H.'s intentions in your presentation of the quotes in your email ? This was what originally started my answering emails. ******* > > You have NOT given the manner > in which the quote would be valid. No details given. ******* You must understand, that It is not always possible to describe abstract issues in full detail. ******* > > I give the quote again from Blavatsky's pen: > > ". . . A new and rapidly growing danger. . . is > threatening . . . the spread of the pure Esoteric > Philosophy and knowledge. . . . I allude to > those charlatanesque imitations of Occultism and > Theosophy. . . . By pandering to the prejudices > of people, and especially by adopting the false > ideas of a personal God and a personal, carnalized > Saviour, as the groundwork of their teaching, the > leaders of this 'swindle' (for such it is) are > endeavoring to draw men to them and in particular > to turn Theosophists from the true path." ******* She talked about issues belonging to her time of living. And yet she teaches, that dead-letter reading and writing is not really what we support. When she wrote the above she was NOT talking about those more than 300 theosophical sects, one less distorted than the other, which we today have floating around us, and which she feared would come into existence. She talked about issues belonging to her time. She was problably also referring to some of those Occult groups, which in fact existed just about at her time of writing. Certain Freemasons was floating around at that time, problably with ties to some politicians. This seems to one of the more obvious groups to refer to. She do not, in this quote, relate to my above quote on what have happened since Blavatsky died. And yet, she admit in her writings, that new teachings has araisen - suited theosophically to the public - during the past centuries. And that this will happen in the future as well I see no reason not to accept this view as a fact. I think think Blavatsky would agree upon this. I think that some of her statements (also the quote in mention) was done to secure the Theosophical Society and nurture it, so that the plan intentioned with it could sprout as much as possible. Because, at her time of writing TS was still very small - and new. She also said, that many theosophists were not members of the Theosophical Society. Today - with more than 300 sects, - the question will always be, which teaching is theosophical ? ******* > > ". . . A close examination will assuredly reveal. . . > materials largely stolen . . . from Theosophical > writings. . . [and] distorted and falsified so as > to be palmed off on the unwary as revelations of > new and undreamed of truths. But many will neither > have the time nor the opportunity for such a thorough > investigation; and before they become aware of the > imposture they may be led far from the Truth. . . . > Nothing is more dangerous to Esoteric Truth than the > garbled and distorted versions disfigured to suit > the prejudices and tastes of men in general." > > H. P. Blavatsky in "E.S. Instruction No. I.", 1889. > Quoted from: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/ests1p2.htm > > I will now tell you my understanding of what Blavatsky wrote. > > I take it that Blavatsky when she refers to "a personal, > carnalized Saviour" is referring to certain teachings > concerning the Christ. > > And I believe that one can see what Blavatsky is actually getting out > by comparing the above quote with the following two extracts > from Blavatsky: > > ". . . 'the coming of Christ,' means the presence of CHRISTOS in a > regenerated world, and not at all the actual coming in body > of 'Christ' Jesus; . . . for Christ--the true esoteric SAVIOUR-- > is no man, but the DIVINE PRINCIPLE in every human being." > > "Whether it be Krishna, Buddha, Sosiosh, Horus or Christos, it is a > universal PRINCIPLE....the Christians, by localizing and isolating > this great Principle, and denying it to any other man except Jesus of > Nazareth (or the Nazar), CARNALIZE the Christos of the Gnostics; that > alone prevents them having any point in common with the disciples of > the Archaic Wisdom. . . true Theosophists will never accept ...a > Christ made Flesh. . . ." > > Therefore I suggest that Theosophical writers who write as Bailey did > the following extracts are giving out (as HPB phrased it) "false > ideas". ******* The is a false suggestion. You will have to make a better argumentation. Try reading the following page and the next few pages carefully: "The Reappearance of Christ" by Alice A. Bailey (Chapter 1). http://beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/reappearance/reap1001.html And also "The Reappearance of Christ" by Alice A. Bailey, page 144-145: "The Eastern faiths have ever emphasized God Immanent, deep within the human heart, "nearer than hands and feet," the Self, the One, the Atma, smaller than the small, yet all-comprehensive. The Western faiths have presented God Transcendent, outside His universe, an Onlooker. God transcendent, first of all, conditioned men's concept of Deity, for the action of this transcendent God appeared in the processes of nature; later, in the Jewish [145] dispensation, God appeared as the tribal Jehovah, as the soul (the rather unpleasant soul) of a nation. Next, God was seen as a perfected man, and the divine God-man walked the Earth in the Person of Christ. Today we have a rapidly growing emphasis upon God immanent in every human being and in every created form. Today, we should have the churches presenting a synthesis of these two ideas which have been summed up for us in the statement of Shri Krishna in The Bhagavad Gita: "Having pervaded this whole Universe with a fragment of Myself, I remain." God, greater than the created whole, yet God present also in the part; God Transcendent guarantees the plan for our world and is the Purpose, conditioning all lives from the minutest atom, up through all the kingdoms of nature, to man." http://beaskund.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/reappearance/reap1042.html (Many readers could with great advantage substitute the word Christ with the words Avatar while reading the above book. Dead-letter reading is not so good. And true, this is better: Do not just read Bailey's books and then forget about the Secret Doctrine and the estern doctrine on Atma=Brahman or the not-I-not teachings.) --- The use of words in theosophical books are also related to the time of writing, the circumstances, the audience and the purpose with the book. --- Bhagavad Gita chapter IV, 7-9: "When Righteousness Declines, O Bharata! when Wickedness Is strong, I rise, from age to age, and take Visible shape, and move a man with men, Succouring the good, thrusting the evil back, And setting Virtue on her seat again. Who knows the truth touching my births on earth And my divine work, when he quits the flesh Puts on its load no more, falls no more down To earthly birth: to Me he comes, dear Prince!" http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/gita/bg04.htm (The Sir Edwin Arnold - edition) The Secret Doctrine vol. 2, page 44: --- "With the Jews Adam Kadmon was the same as Athamaz, Tamaz, or the Adonis of the Greeks -- "the One with, and of his father" -- the "Father" becoming during the later Races Helios, the Sun, as Apollo Karneios,*"... * Apollo Karneios is certainly a Greek transformation from the Hindu Krishna Karna. "Karna" means radiant from "carne," "a ray," and Karneios, which was a title of Apollo with the Celts as with the Greeks, meant "Sun born." --- Bailey's problem is mainly today, apart from her phallic use of words about Christ and God, that her books attracts only a certain audience with a certain cultural background. Even Blavatsky's writings did that. But their purpose and audience was different then and also today, because it was a different time they were written in and with a different purpose in mind. Try this one on "Characteristics of Theosophical Litterature": http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/char_lit.htm Do you find that link to be allright or do you disagree with it as well ? Something new is needed from time to time. (Also to open up the possibility, that more people would be interested in HPB's activities.) ******* > > "They will prepare and work for conditions in the world in which > Christ can move freely among men, in bodily Presence; He need not > then remain in His present retreat in Central Asia." ******* The word "Christ" used by Bailey should not be used in a dead-letter sense. It has more than one meaning. Try reading the Bailey books more carefully. She uses the word in a sense, so to make the newcomers learn, that their more ordinary view of Christ is in fact not acceptable. The reappaerance will be a reappearance of an Avatar - a true Krishna. The sad fact, that some Bailey groups misuse her writings cannot be said to be Bailey's fault. (An inserted comment: We may wonder why Christ - the Avatar had to incarnate in the area of Jerusalem and if this had anything to do with the evils done by Hitler and his hand in the creation of the state of Israel ? The problem is, as I see it, that almost anything Good has the sideeffect, that someone misunderstands it and some evils happen because of it.) ******* > > "His reappearance and His consequent work cannot be confined to one > small locality or domain, unheard of by the great majority, as was > the case when He was here before. The radio, the press, and the > dissemination of news, will make His coming different to that of any > previous Messenger; the swift modes of transportation will make Him > available to countless millions, and by boat, rail and plane they can > reach Him: through television, His face can be made familiar to all, > and verily 'every eye shall see Him." > > Let each student decide for himself. > > And Morten, feel free to characterize my understanding as > "dead letter" or whatever. But you should give in turn > your detailed explanation of how we should REALLY understand > what HPB wrote. ******* Perhaps I should not. This was not quite what I emailed you about. I emailed about how - you - related OLD written material to our time in a manner, which was taken out of context. You have your view or your theosophical 'sect'. And I have my view or 'sect' if you like. And there we are again. Can the blind lead the blind ? Was Blavatsky not quite right when she in her article "PSEUDO-THEOSOPHY" feared that more than 300 theosophical sects would be created ? And again you tell me yours is the right one, without answering my questions in the previous email ? I think, I know where you are now. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ******* group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links From samblo@cs.com Fri Apr 02 01:22:32 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66465 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 09:22:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 09:22:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m27.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.8) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 09:22:31 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m27.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.2.) id r.e4.4a7c2189 (4206) for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 04:22:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 04:22:28 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.8 From: samblo@cs.com Subject: Re: Theos-World A Casebook of Encounters with the Theosophical Mahatmas X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, Thanks for the links, scanning them I saw one that aligns to recent activity I have been looking at specifically. I have been looking into the trip Madame Blavatsy made to "Pauri Dzong" when she was very ill. Interestingly I found a few nice present day websites about Paro Dzong and a place that seems to have a correlate to the "3 month stasis" that K.H. performed. Here are the websites and an excerpt from the testimony letter on the Link you gave us: > > > > Case 27 R. Casava Pillai May-October 1882, Nellore, Bombay and Darjeeling, India. > I there left Madame Blavatsky and her servant near the Railway Station, > and crossed the Hughly by a boat to the other side, and walked about 5 miles to > the Nalhati Station, and then took the mail train for Siliguri, which I > reached on the 20th early in the morning, and took the rail for Darjiling which > place I reached about evening and met Babaji Dharbagirinath that very night > just when I was in the greatest fix to find my way to the North. We were both > together until the 28th. We travelled together, both on horse-back and on foot > in Bhutan, Sikkim, &c. We visited several "Gumpas" (temples). In the course > of these travels, just about Pari or Parchong on the northern frontier of > Sikkim, I had the good fortune and happiness to see the blessed feet of the most > venerated Masters Kut Humi and M[orya] in their physical bodies. The very > identical personages whose astral bodies I had seen in my dreams, &c., since > 1869, and in 1876 in Madras, and on the 14th September 1882 in the > head-quarters at Bombay. Besides, I have also seen a few advanced chelas, and among them, > the blessed Jwalkool who is now a Mahatma. http://www.cs.unm.edu/~shapiro/BHUTAN/MIDSIZE/tigersnest.html Bhutan and Paro Dzong: http://www.h-of-r.com/c&i/bhutan/bh_att_paro.html Paro Dzong: http://www.h_of_r.com/images/images_bhutan/bh_paro_03.jpg Bhutan Map: http://www.lonelyplanet.com/mapshells/indian_subcontinent/bhutan/bhutan.htm Bhutan means "the End of Tibet" indicating it was once considered an interior part of Tibet and the border limit. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Apr 02 02:23:19 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91596 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 10:23:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 10:23:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m28.mx.aol.com) (64.12.137.9) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 10:23:17 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.2.) id x.1ce.1d8fb935 (4254); Fri, 2 Apr 2004 05:19:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1ce.1d8fb935.2d9e9832@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 05:19:30 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.137.9 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Subject: Re: [bn-study] Re: levitation and clear light X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 For those who might want to examine the nature of light further, the following is what I have understood was taught by HPB as well as all the Masters of occultism -- with a few additional comments related to modern and post modern science. This is only skimming the surface, however, and much more can be said about the field nature of light and its relationship to the subsequent "coadunate but not consubstantial" fields of phenomenal consciousness -- of which it (light) is the first expression or radiation of their overall substance or mass/energy/frequency spectrum on each plane or level -- as the fields of consciousness involve and descend fractally from the infinite to the infinitesimal... And, spread their zero point centers from one to many, Since this manifest light is objective, it exists separately from, but completely dependent upon the subjective awareness and will of pure consciousness or spirit -- which resides eternally in and is the fundamental nature of each zero-laya point itself; i.e., Light is simply the first expression of the "spinergy" or abstract motion surrounding this point on any level, field or plane of consciousness. We might call this abstract motion (spinergy) the root of "life force" surrounding the rootless root of pure consciousness -- having the potential of infinite awareness and infinite will -- which are the fundamental aspects of every zero-point of Absolute Space when expanded to phenomenal space -- whose "center is everywhere and its circumference nowhere." Each of us is one of those centers... As above, so below. 1. Light is the first expression of force-substance or energetic matter emanating from the zero or laya point on any plane of consciousness. 2. When light radiates from any point source in any of the seven fold fields of consciousness, it travels as expanding spherical waves of force (at the frequency phase order or energy spectrum of each particular field). Along each radial line of such light propagation, these "wave fronts," appear to be separate elements or individual particles (photons), one following the other... But actually, they are the expanding and contracting "monads" of that vibrating ray of light energy apparently going in and out of phenomenal existence at the frequency of its fundamental spectral energy/frequency level or color. (This also accounts for the wave nature of the "quantum particle" spoken of by reductive science.) The speed of this light depends on the medium it is traveling through or on (like waves on water) -- and its maximal velocity (C in our physical space-time continuum) in the "vacuum," is limited by the underlying "carrying " frequency phase order of the ether or astral field it travels on. This is analogous to the expanding circles of waves in water radiating from a point impact. If the speed of that expansion along with the size of the waves were to reach the speed and size of the molecular vibrations of the water, they would become absorbed by the water and apparently move no faster. Therefore, presumedly, this astral "carrier" field would have its own "light" speed -- Possibly C^2 -- which might account for Einstein's equation, E=MC^2 - that describes the equivalency of mass and energy as they appear in our physical spacetime continuum. Such astral light would be the light we actually experience in the mind's eye... Since, the sidereal or physical electromagnetic light that reaches our retinas goes through electrochemical processes in the brain before it is transformed (on the astro-mental plane) to the "inner" light we are aware of and experience in our inner eye. Sometimes, this is called the "third eye" -- which is the zero-point of convergence of all the light rays we see inside our head as if they were projected outward on the objects of the surrounding world. Incidentally, science cannot accept this explanation of vision -- calling it "naive realism" since it depends on a duality between the subjective seer (homunculus) and the physical brain and sensory system. This is based on their assumption that there is no such duality, and that consciousness is caused solely by the brain's neurological complexity. Thus, they are forced to consider consciousness as an epiphenomena of the brain and equivalent to its neurological correlates. Such a view is completely opposite the theosophical view of consciousness (or spirit) -- as the fundamental subjective nature of the universe in partnership with objective matter (symbolized by the point within the circle). 3. "White" light is a combination of all possible colors. There is no such thing as "black" light (other than the ultraviolet light that's invisible to our senses) since the darkness of space is simply the absence of light -- yet at any point of such darkness there must still be invisible and directly immeasurable matter-energy of an equal and opposite polarity as well as negative force (which cosmologists may infer and speak of as "dark matter" based on their indirect observations and measurements on the material plane). This dark matter could be simply the "anti matter" postulated by the physicists -- whose radiant light energy of is of an opposite polarity, phase or chirality (mirror image or opposite spin) and thus invisible to us. Such an opposite force would be necessary to maintain the balance of the overall forces in the universe. This complies with HPB's statement that gravity (the mother of all manifest forces) is a dual force of both attraction and repulsion, centrifugal and centripetal. Their periodic reversal and dominance, one over the other, would also conform to the theosophical principle of fundament cyclic laws of periodicity, and account for the alternating expansions and contractions of the universe and its manvantaras and pralayas (cyclic periods of awakenings and sleepings). 3. Not only does this primal or Akashic "light" initially emanate in its most subtle and highest frequency/energy directly from the Absolute (the mother of all subsequent fields of consciousness as they descend through matter on each plane, like bubbles within bubbles within bubbles -- See**) -- but its individual rays (post modern science now sees them as "strings") can also carry information as a result of modulated interference patterns of holographic images overlaid or impressed on their much higher frequency/energy sinuous vibrational (or cyclic) waves. This "informational" encoding is carried by light in the "belly" (so to speak -- see***) of its triune monadic field structure -- thus carrying the "signature" of its source coupled with all the "wisdom" contained in it. A physical analogy is the modulation of radio waves (a lower frequency range of the electromagnetic spectrum than light) that carries even lower frequency modulated information that can be transformed into analogous light images on television or computer screens. 4: Therefore, this Astral or Akashic light, as the carrier of information consisting of fundamental ideas held in akashic memory that we sometimes experience as the "light of inspiration" or the "light of intuition." Such intuition is the result of directly grasping the fundamental or unadulterated ideation's of the primal source on the highest Buddhi-Atma plane of consciousness -- before such information is distorted by the thought interference's induced by us on the lower mental planes (where our conditioned [and often wrong] memories are stored). Thus, such truths can be grasped most easily when we are in a state of quiet meditation along with focussed concentration though an act of will -- whether consciously or unconsciously (as a sudden flash of inspiration out of the blue, so to speak). For more help, see: ** http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html *** Secret Doctrine: Smaragdine Tablet (of Hermes) as above, so below . . . II 113 disfigured by Christian hands II 113 Isarim, an initiate, said to have found II 556 seven keys to meaning of II 109 swastica in II 99 www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd-hp.htm Hope this is enough to help us delve a bit deeper -- both logically and intuitively. All questions, comments, bugs, etc., welcome. :-) LHM ' From Drpsionic@aol.com Fri Apr 02 04:41:46 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77573 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 12:41:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 12:41:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 12:41:44 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r1.2.) id r.19b.22a40366 (4214) for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 07:41:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19b.22a40366.2d9eb97c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 07:41:32 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 205.188.157.36 From: Drpsionic@aol.com Subject: Re: Theos-World expecting others to be perfect / right ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 4/2/04 12:51:50 AM Central Standard Time, raghu_k@alfinance.com writes: << is it ego to expect people to be perfect ? >> It may not be ego but it is stupid. Chuck the Heretic From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Apr 02 05:34:40 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62596 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 13:34:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 13:34:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.101) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 13:34:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.128] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2004 13:33:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 13:33:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 584 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.101 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.225.166.36 Subject: Re: T.S. and the "Masters" these days X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "walkinsnotwelcome" wrote: > Paul, Bart, thanks for responding. I know there are issues such > as, "Was that a really universal Brotherhood they were involved with, > or just one particular occult lodge?" Methinks the latter. > If they're no longer in any vital > relationship with that organization, I wonder how long this has been > true? According to HOB since 1897. > "By the way, Kuthumi hasn't returned our calls since 1934". Unless he was phoning from beyond the grave, he would have stopped long before then. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Apr 02 05:37:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17666 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 13:37:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 13:37:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 13:37:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.159] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2004 13:37:11 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 13:37:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001401c4187e$518568a0$150810ac@ALFITR01> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 238 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.83 From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 4.225.166.36 Subject: Re: expecting others to be perfect / right ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Raghu K" wrote: > is it ego to expect people to be perfect ? >From a Buddhist perspective, rather than agonizing over ego, the trick is to come to a full realization of its unreality. From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Fri Apr 02 06:15:36 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24912 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 14:15:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 14:15:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 14:15:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.254] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2004 14:13:19 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 14:13:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5914 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.71 From: "kpauljohnson" X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.238 Subject: Reply to Pedro X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Dear Pedro, This will be my last word here on this subject, not because I don't want to discuss it but because Theosophists routinely misconstrue everything I ever wrote about it and after all these years it's just not worthwhile to keep hacking away at the weeds of misunderstanding. My books on Theosophical history are certainly deserving of criticism on several fronts as is my book on Cayce. I'd be totally disheartened about my ability to make myself understood, in light of the wild misreadings of my books and furious attacks that resulted, were it not for two things: 1) no one to my knowledge has ever misconstrued anything whatsoever about my Cayce book and made that misunderstanding a basis for criticism and 2) no non-Theosophist has ever to my knowledge made any criticisms that completely misread my writings on Blavatsky. Since you seem to be a nice guy and not deliberately attacking on the basis of misrepresentation, I'll take exception to a few of your points and leave it at that: > > In your book ("The Masters Revealed") you developed an interesting > hypothesis about the identity of the "Masters", There is no single hypothesis but quite a few; 32 individuals examined as HPB's mentors and sponsors. Even if by "the Masters" you mean only Morya and Koot Hoomi (which my Theosophical critics generally do) I don't propose one or two hypotheses but rather more than that, different aspects of their descriptions suggesting multiple prototypes. but in order to do > that you had either to ignore or treat in a cursory manner important pieces of evidence that frontally contradict your hypothesis. Misreading the hypotheses, one is hardly in a position to evaluate what evidence supports or contradicts them. For example, your treatment of the question 'Who wrote the Mahatma > Letters' falls exactly in this category. That is quite a noncommittal treatment which could hardly be accused of ignoring any evidence because it contradicts some single hypothesis. The conclusion is after all "Don't know, but the truth is probably somewhere in between the extremes"-- hardly the kind of position for which one would ignore/distort evidence! It quotes a late book by > Sinnett but fails to examine what he said in "The Occult World" which based in his correspondence with K.H., for example. In short, you did not take into account the clear, historical evidences from that time(1880s), coming from a number of members of the TS, both from India as well as from the US and Europe. That is not the case at all. While the treatment of such testimony is sketchy in TMR, the sequel devotes a very large amount of attention to it. You might not like *how* I took it into account, but I did so at great length. BTW one man's "clear, historical evidence" that is taken to prove his beliefs is another man's confusing welter of claims and counterclaims that proves nothing. "Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it." Andre Gide (1869 - 1951) Another important source of > testimonial evidence are HPB's letters to Sinnett. The deep sense of sacredness which is present in her attitude and devotion to her > Teacher impressed not only Sinnett and his wife, Patience, but many a member of the TS. And letters to other people reveal a scornful attitude toward her credulous English disciples. If you are working on the basis of proof texts to support your religious beliefs, you will ignore those and concentrate on the letters to Sinnett. Looking at the whole picture is much more challenging, because there are multiple layers of evidence revealing multiple aspects of a person's character. She made clear that her entire life was dedicated to his work. To think of HPB as a "maha" master manipulator, > psychologising influential members of the TS in order for them to > believe in "Mahatmas" when no Mahatmas existed, That is a misreading so extreme, and so contradicted by every page of my books, that I'm flabbergasted by it. A dozen or more authors before me took that position; I oppose it vehemently for hundreds of pages. Non-theosophists had no trouble at all understanding my position (real Masters, mythologized portrayals) and the first half- dozen or so Theosophical reviewers understood it. At some point, the real Theosophist-of-many-years Paul Johnson got completely displaced by a straw man thanks to a handful of antagonistic Theosophists and there was not a damn thing I could do about it. Except move on to write about a subject not cursed by decades of antagonism. is at least to > belittle the enormity of her dedicated service to humanity. I have been subjected to some ridicule for the extent to which I depicted the "enormity of her dedicated service to humanity" in a true-believerish kind of way. That criticism was more well-deserved than any coming from Theosophists, IMO. snip > existence of the Mahatmas or Adepts is an integral part of the > tradition of Occultism (gupta-vidya) that HPB made widely available through her writings. And as they themselves said, they are the product of a "generation of enquirers". Perhaps we who talk about it and speculate are just outsiders. > The spiritual status and psychic powers of historical individuals is inaccessible to scholarly investigation. Whether it's the resurrection of Jesus or telepathy between HPB and her teachers, the historical investigator is an "outsider" to such questions and rightly so. But that does not devalue asking (and trying to answer) questions that are more accessible to historical investigation. Here's a link to an article I wrote that puts my Theosophical antagonists in context of the general dilemma of researchers delving into spiritual movements from a historical perspective: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/his/pj_heretic.html Cheers, Paul From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Apr 02 06:17:30 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54447 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2004 14:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2004 14:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (195.41.46.235) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2004 14:17:20 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x5358588e.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [83.88.88.142]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B80D447FE46 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:17:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <00a601c418bd$401eea70$8e585853@khidr> To: References: <001401c4187e$518568a0$150810ac@ALFITR01> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 16:17:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 195.41.46.235 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Subject: Re: Theos-World expecting others to be perfect / right ! X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Raghu and all, My views are: ??? Who expects what ? from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raghu K" To: Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 8:47 AM Subject: Theos-World expecting others to be perfect / right ! > is it ego to expect people to be perfect ? > > Anybody please clarify. > > Raghu Seshadri. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 7:20 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World Daniel's Comments on Blavatsky's Quote > > > Hallo Daniel and all, > > My views are: > > Why do you NOT want to express your stance on this quote ? > I just don't understand you. > > Let us have the quote again (changed a bit) while we refer to Blavatsky's > writings and her > written material: > > "So very important: The use of ideas, FOR INSTANCE BOOKS and WRITTEN > MATERIAL of ALL sorts is to shape a man or woman, not to support a system - > which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in which the Wisdom > Tradition is > 'living', and not just the perpetuations of ideas and movements - LIKE FOR > INSTANCE > THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY. This seems important to understand and know > about." > http://www.theos-talk.com/archives/200210/tt00046.html (On what happened to > The Theosophical Society when Blavatsky died.) > > > What are your views on this quote Daniel ? > A simple YES or NO would be allright. > But that would maybe be too time consuming for you ? > > > A have given a few comments in the below using *******. > > > > from > M. Sufilight with peace and love... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 5:13 AM > Subject: Theos-World Morten's 3 Comments on Blavatsky's Quote > > > > Morten, > > > > In your latest email, you respond [in different extracts > > below] to the Blavatsky quote found at: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/15668 > > > > Your various comments I now give: > > > > COMMENT 1 > > > > "I do not say that the quote by Blavatsky and K.H. are > > wrong. I just say, that one aught to relate such a > > quote to our present situation --- with about 300 sects of > > theosophists all claiming that they know it all...." > > > > COMMENT 2 > > > > "I say, it is not relevant today - just like that - > > in a dead-letter sense." > > > > COMMENT 3 > > > > "I said somthing like that it was not valid in the > > manner you presented it in in your email in question. > > I said also, that we aught to relate OLD written > > theosophical material to the time we live in." > > > > Morten, you have NOT actually > > told us HOW we should relate such a quote to our > > present situation. No details are given. > ******* > Yes I have. Read the previous email. > > It is not always possible to describe abstract issues in full detail. > But it is often possible to tell people of their existence. > And I have done that. > > ******* > > > > You have NOT described HOW it would > > be relevant today in some NON dead-letter sense. > > No details given. > ******* > I have talked about DESIGNs, the human reaction to written material and > compared it to dead-letter reading with the head under the arm. > Dead-letter reading to not relate the reading to the timespan between the > time the material was written and the present day of reading it. > I talked about the impact the written has upon the reader at a given time in > history. And why the impact problably would be different today. > The human reaction to a given DESIGN is often giving it a long-term or > short-term impact. > It also has a certain itensity and importance to the person. It is also a > fact, that Sometimes this intensity or importance level has to do with when > the material was written. Sometimes the authors original intentions with the > written were not relating to a much later time period, where a new audience > would read it. > > The fact that someone later twist the intentions with the written material > so to make these intentions appear different, doesn't make such a view more > true, does it ? > And didn't you, Daniel, do that with both Blavatsky's and K.H.'s intentions > in your presentation of the quotes in your email ? > This was what originally started my answering emails. > > ******* > > > > You have NOT given the manner > > in which the quote would be valid. No details given. > ******* > You must understand, that It is not always possible to describe abstract > issues in full detail. > ******* > > > > I give the quote again from Blavatsky's pen: > > > > ". . . A new and rapidly growing danger. . . is > > threatening . . . the spread of the pure Esoteric > > Philosophy and knowledge. . . . I allude to > > those charlatanesque imitations of Occultism and > > Theosophy. . . . By pandering to the prejudices > > of people, and especially by adopting the false > > ideas of a personal God and a personal, carnalized > > Saviour, as the groundwork of their teaching, the > > leaders of this 'swindle' (for such it is) are > > endeavoring to draw men to them and in particular > > to turn Theosophists from the true path." > > ******* > She talked about issues belonging to her time of living. > And yet she teaches, that dead-letter reading and writing is not really what > we support. > When she wrote the above she was NOT talking about those more than 300 > theosophical sects, one less distorted than the other, which we today have > floating around us, and which she feared would come into existence. > She talked about issues belonging to her time. She was problably also > referring to some of those Occult groups, which in fact existed just about > at her time of writing. Certain Freemasons was floating around at that > time, problably with ties to some politicians. This seems to one of the more > obvious groups to refer to. > > She do not, in this quote, relate to my above quote on what have happened > since Blavatsky died. > And yet, she admit in her writings, that new teachings has araisen - suited > theosophically to the public - during the past centuries. > And that this will happen in the future as well I see no reason not to > accept this view as a fact. I think think Blavatsky would agree upon this. > I think that some of her statements (also the quote in mention) was done to > secure the Theosophical Society and nurture it, so that the plan intentioned > with it could sprout as much as possible. > Because, at her time of writing TS was still very small - and new. > She also said, that many theosophists were not members of the Theosophical > Society. > Today - with more than 300 sects, - the question will always be, which > teaching is theosophical ? > > > ******* > > > > ". . . A close examination will assuredly reveal. . . > > materials largely stolen . . . from Theosophical > > writings. . . [and] distorted and falsified so as > > to be palmed off on the unwary as revelations of > > new and undreamed of truths. But many will neither > > have the time nor the opportunity for such a thorough > > investigation; and before they become aware of the > > imposture they may be led far from the Truth. . . . > > Nothing is more dangerous to Esoteric Truth than the > > garbled and distorted versions disfigured to suit > > the prejudices and tastes of men in general." > > > > H. P. Blavatsky in "E.S. Instruction No. I.", 1889. > > Quoted from: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/ests1p2.htm > > > > I will now tell you my understanding of what Blavatsky wrote. > > > > I take it that Blavatsky when she refers to "a personal, > > carnalized Saviour" is referring to certain