From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 01 04:09:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 97327 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2003 12:09:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2003 12:09:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2003 12:09:16 -0000 Received: from pool0069.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.18.69] helo=DALLAS) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AQmr7-0002eq-00; Mon, 01 Dec 2003 04:08:46 -0800 To: "AA-BN--Study" Subject: RE:: Physical Phenomena at a Seance (3 of 3) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 04:08:33 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c3b803$dbeed160$4512f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <000401c3b7cb$828b09a0$958eb3d1@u7k5a4> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 207.217.120.54 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Monday, December 01, 2003 Dear Denis: Consider what THEOSOPHY has to offer on this subject. Is has a wide and deep coverage. Best washes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =09=20 PSYCHIC LAWS, FORCES, AND PHENOMENA WHAT IS THE "PSYCHIC ?" The field of psychic forces, phenomena, and dynamics is a vast one. Such phenomena are seen and the forces exhibited every day in all lands, but until a few years ago very little attention was given to them by scientific persons, while a great deal of ridicule was heaped upon those who related the occurrences or averred belief in the psychic nature. A cult sprang up in the United States some years ago calling itself quite wrongly "spiritualism," but having a great opportunity it neglected it and fell into mere wonder-seeking without the slightest shadow of a philosophy. It has accomplished but little in the way of progress except a record of many undigested. But other Western investigators of the accepted schools have not done much better, and the result is that there is no Western Psychology worthy of the name.=20 This lack of an adequate system of Psychology is a natural consequence of the materialistic bias of science and the paralyzing influence of dogmatic religion; the one ridiculing effort and blocking the way, the other forbidding investigation. The Roman Catholic branch of the Christian Church is in some respects an exception, however. It has always admitted the existence of the psychic world -- for it the realm of devils and angels, but as angels manifest when they choose and devils are to be shunned, no one is permitted by that Church to meddle in such matters except an authorized priest...Real psychology is an Oriental product today. Very true the system was known in the West when a very ancient civilization flourished in America, and in certain parts of Europe anterior to the Christian era, but for the present day psychology in its true phase belongs to the ancient Orient.=20 For centuries, what is now called "spiritualism," has been well known in India where it is properly designated "bhuta worship," meaning the attempt to communicate with the Astral remnants of deceased persons. This should be its name here also, for by it the gross and devilish, or earthly, parts of man are excited, appealed to, and communicated with. [The real Man, the divine Ego, has retired to Devachan, and the astral corpse is disintegrating.] But the facts of the long record in America demand a brief examination. These facts all studious Theosophists must admit. The theosophical explanation and deductions, however, are totally different from those of the average spiritualist. A philosophy has not been evolved in the ranks or literature of spiritualism; nothing but theosophy will give the true explanation, point out defects, reveal dangers, and suggest remedies PSYCHIC LAWS AND FORCES Are there psychic forces, laws, and powers? If there are, then there must be the phenomena. And if the philosophy of Theosophy is true, then in man are the same powers and forces which are to be found anywhere in Nature. He is held by the Masters of Wisdom to be the highest product of the whole system of evolution, and mirrors in himself every power, however wonderful or terrible, of Nature; by the very fact of being such a mirror he is man.=20 This has long been recognized in the East, where travellers have seen exhibitions of such powers which would upset the theories of many a Western man of science. And in the West the same phenomena have been repeated. The genuine psychic -- or, as they are often called, magical -- phenomena done by the Eastern faquir or yogee are all performed by the use of natural forces and processes not even dreamed of as yet by the West.=20 LEVITATION AND GRAVITY Levitation of the body in apparent defiance of gravitation is a thing to be done with ease when the process is completely mastered. It contravenes no law. Gravitation is only half of a law. The Oriental sage admits gravity, if one wishes to adopt the term; but the real term is attraction, the other half of the law being expressed by the word repulsion, and both being governed by the great laws of electrical force. Weight and stability depend on polarity, and when the polarity of an object is altered in respect to the earth immediately underneath it, then the object may rise. But as mere objects are devoid of the consciousness found in man, they cannot rise without certain other aids. The human body, however, will rise in the air unsupported, like a bird, when its polarity is thus changed. This change is brought about consciously by a certain system of breathing known to the Oriental; it may be induced also by aid from certain natural forces spoken of later, in the cases of those who without knowing the law perform the phenomena, as with the saints of the Roman Catholic Church.=20 COHESION AND DISPERSION A third great law which enters into many of the phenomena of the East and West is that of Cohesion. The power of Cohesion is a distinct power of itself, and not a result as is supposed. This law and its action must be known if certain phenomena are to be brought about, as, for instance, what the writer has seen, the passing of one solid iron ring through another, or a stone through a solid wall. Hence another force is used which can only be called dispersion. Cohesion is the determinating force, for, the moment the dispersing force is withdrawn, the cohesive force restores the particles to their original position.=20 Following this out the Adept in such great dynamics is able to disperse the atoms of an object -- excluding always the human body -- to such a distance from each other as to render the object invisible, and then can send them along a current formed in the ether to any distance on the earth. At the desired point the dispersing force is withdrawn, when immediately cohesion reasserts itself and the object reappears intact. This may sound like fiction, but being known to the Lodge and its disciples as an actual fact, it is equally certain that Science will sooner or later admit the proposition.=20 INSTRUMENTS OF THE MAN OF WILL But the lay mind infested by the materialism of the day wonders how all these manipulations are possible, seeing that no instruments are spoken of. The instruments are in the body and brain of man. In the view of the Lodge "the human brain is an exhaustless generator of force," and a complete knowledge of the inner chemical and dynamic laws of Nature, together with a trained mind, give the possessor the power to operate the laws to which I have referred. This will be man's possession in the future, and would be his today were it not for blind dogmatism, selfishness, and materialistic unbelief. Not even the Christian lives up to his Master's very true statement that if one had faith he could remove a mountain. A knowledge of the law when added to faith gives power over matter, mind, space, and time.=20 PRECIPITATION OF OBJECTS Using the same powers, the trained Adept can produce before the eye, objective to the touch, material which was not visible before, and in any desired shape. This would be called creation by the vulgar, but it is simply evolution in your very presence. Matter is held suspended in the air about us.=20 Every particle of matter, visible or still unprecipitated, has been through all possible forms, and what the Adept does is to select any desired form, existing, as they all do, in the Astral Light and then by effort of the Will and Imagination to clothe the form with the matter by precipitation. The object so made will fade away unless certain other processes are resorted to which need not be here described, but if these processes are used the object will remain permanently.=20 And if it is desired to make visible a message on paper or other surface, the same laws and powers are used. The distinct -- photographically and sharply definite -- image of every line of every letter or picture is formed in the mind, and then out of the air is drawn the pigment to fall within the limits laid down by the brain, "the exhaustless generator of force and form." All these things the writer has seen done in the way described, and not by any hired or irresponsible medium, and he knows whereof he speaks.=20 WILL AND IMAGINATION This, then, naturally leads to the proposition that the human Will is all powerful and the Imagination is a most useful faculty with a dynamic force. The Imagination is the picture-making power of the human mind. In the ordinary average human person it has not enough training or force to be more than a sort of dream, but it may be trained. When trained it is the Constructor in the Human Workshop. Arrived at that stage it makes a matrix in the Astral substance through which effects objectively will flow. It is the greatest power, after Will, in the human assemblage of complicated instruments.=20 The modern Western definition of Imagination is incomplete and wide of the mark. It is chiefly used to designate fancy or misconception and at all times stands for unreality. It is impossible to get another term as good because one of the powers of the trained Imagination is that of making an image. The word is derived from those signifying the formation or reflection of an image. This faculty used, or rather suffered to act, in an unregulated mode has given the West no other idea than that covered by "fancy." So far as that goes it is right but it may be pushed to a greater limit, which, when reached causes the Imagination to evolve in the Astral substance an actual image or form which may be then used in the same way as an iron molder uses a mold of sand for the molten iron.=20 It is therefore the King faculty, inasmuch as the Will cannot do its work if the Imagination be at all weak or untrained. For instance, if the person desiring to precipitate from the air wavers in the least with the image made in the Astral substance, the pigment will fall upon the paper in a correspondingly wavering and diffused manner.=20 TELEPATHY To communicate with another mind at any distance the Adept attunes all the molecules of the brain and all the thoughts of the mind so as to vibrate in unison with the mind to be affected, and that other mind and brain have also to be either voluntarily thrown into the same unison or fall into it voluntarily. So though the Adept be at Bombay and his friend in New York, the distance is no obstacle, as the inner senses are not dependent on an ear, but may feel and see the thoughts and images in the mind of the other person.=20 And when it is desired to look into the mind and catch the thoughts of another and the pictures all around him of all he has thought and looked at, the Adept's inner sight and hearing are directed to the mind to be seen, when at once all is visible. But, as said before, only a rogue would do this, and the Adepts do not do it except in strictly authorized cases. The modern man sees no misdemeanor in looking into the secrets of another by means of this power, but the Adepts say it is an invasion of the rights of the other person. No man has the right, even when he has the power in his hand, to enter into the mind of another and pick out its secrets. This is the law of the Lodge to all who seek, and if one sees that he is about to discover the secrets of another he must at once withdraw and proceed no further. If he proceeds his power is taken from him in the case of a disciple; in the case of any other person he must take the consequence of this sort of burglary. For Nature has her laws and her policemen, and if we commit felonies in the Astral world the great Law and the guardians of it, for which no bribery is possible, will execute the penalty, no matter how long we wait, even if it be for ten thousand years. Here is another safeguard for ethics and morals. But until men admit the system of philosophy put forward in this book, they will not deem it wrong to commit felonies in fields where their weak human law has no effect, but at the same time by thus refusing the philosophy they will put off the day when all may have these great powers for the use of all. . THE REALM OF THE ASTRAL ENERGIES AND FORCES The Astral substance being the register of all thoughts, sounds, pictures, and other vibrations, and the inner man being a complete person able to act with or without co-ordination with the physical, all the phenomena of hypnotism, clairvoyance, clairaudience, mediumship, and the rest of those which are not consciously performed may be explained.=20 In the Astral substance are all sounds and pictures, and in the Astral man remain impressions of every event, however remote or insignificant; these acting together produce the phenomena which seem so strange to those who deny or are unaware of the postulates of occultism. In the Astral Light are pictures of all things whatsoever that happened to any person, and as well also pictures of those events to come the causes for which are sufficiently well marked and made. If the causes are yet indefinite, so will be the images of the future. But for the mass of events for several years to come all the producing and efficient causes are always laid down with enough definiteness to permit the seer to see them in advance as if present. By means of these pictures, seen with the inner senses, all clairvoyants exercise their strange faculty. Yet it is a faculty common to all men, though in the majority but slightly developed; but occultism asserts that were it not for the germ of this power slightly active in every one no man could convey to another any idea whatsoever.=20 In clairvoyance the pictures in the Astral Light pass before the inner vision and are reflected into the physical eye from within. They then appear objectively to the seer. If they are of past events or those to come, the picture only is seen; if of events actually then occurring, the scene is perceived through the Astral Light by the inner sense.=20 The distinguishing difference between ordinary and clairvoyant vision is, then, that in clairvoyance with waking sight the vibration is communicated to the brain first, from which it is transmitted to the physical eye, where it sets up an image upon the retina, just as the revolving cylinder [disc, tape, etc.] of the phonograph causes the mouthpiece [speaker] to vibrate exactly as the voice had vibrated when thrown into the receiver.=20 In ordinary eye vision the vibrations are given to the eye first and then transmitted to the brain. Images and sounds are both caused by vibrations, and hence any sound once made is preserved in the Astral Light from whence the inner sense can take it and from within transmit it to the brain, from which it reaches the physical ear. So in clairaudience at a distance the hearer does not hear with the ear, but with the center of hearing in the Astral body. Second-sight is a combination of clairaudience and clairvoyance or not, just as the particular case is, and the frequency with which future events are seen by the second-sight seer adds an element of prophecy.=20 SPIRITUAL VISION -- RARE The highest order of clairvoyance -- that of spiritual vision -- is very rare. The usual clairvoyant deals only with the ordinary aspects and strata of the Astral matter. Spiritual sight comes only to those who are pure, devoted, and firm. It may be attained by special development of the particular organ in the body through which alone such sight is possible, and only after discipline, long training, and the highest altruism. The pure-minded and the brave can deal with the future and the present far better than any clairvoyant. But as the existence of these two powers proves the presence in us of the inner senses and of the necessary medium -- the Astral Light, they have, as such human faculties, an important bearing upon the claims made by the so-called "spirits" of the seance room.=20 DREAMS Dreams are sometimes the result of brain action automatically proceeding, and are also produced by the transmission into the brain by the real inner person of those scenes or ideas high or low which that real person has seen while the body slept. They are then strained into the brain as if floating on the soul as it sinks into the body. These dreams may be of use, but generally the resumption of bodily activity destroys the meaning, perverts the image, and reduces all to confusion. But the great fact of all dreaming is that some one perceives and feels therein, and this is one of the arguments for the inner person's existence.=20 In sleep the Inner Man communes with higher intelligences, and sometimes succeeds in impressing the brain with what is gained, either a high idea or a prophetic vision, or else fails in consequence of the resistance of brain fiber. The karma of the person also determines the meaning of a dream, for a king may dream that which relates to his kingdom, while the same thing dreamed by a citizen relates to nothing of temporal consequence. But, as said by Job: "In dreams and visions of the night man is instructed."=20 GHOSTS AND APPARITIONS Apparitions and doubles are of two general classes. The one, astral shells or images from the astral world, either actually visible to the eye or the result of vibration within thrown out to the eye and thus making the person think he sees an objective form without.=20 The other, the astral body of living persons and carrying full consciousness or only partially so endowed. Laborious attempts by Psychical Research Societies to prove apparitions without knowing these laws really prove nothing, for out of twenty admitted cases nineteen may be the objectivization of the image impressed on the brain. But that apparitions have been seen there is no doubt. The Adept may send out his apparition, which, however, is called by another name [Mayavi rupa], as it consists of his conscious and trained astral body endowed with all his intelligence and not wholly detached from his physical frame.=20 SCIENCE AND THEOSOPHY Theosophy does not deny nor ignore the physical laws discovered by science. It admits all such as are proven, but it asserts the existence of others which modify the action of those we ordinarily know. Behind all the visible phenomena is the occult cosmos with its ideal machinery; that occult cosmos can only be fully understood by means of the inner senses which pertain to it; those senses will not be easily developed if their existence is denied. Brain and mind acting together have the power to evolve forms, first as astral ones in astral substance, and later as visible ones by accretions of the matter on this plane.=20 Objectivity depends largely on perception, and perception may be affected by inner stimuli. Hence a witness may either see an object which actually exists as such without, or may be made to see one by internal stimulus.=20 This gives us three modes of sight: (a) with the eye by means of light from an object, (b) with the inner senses by means of the Astral Light, and (c) by stimulus from within which causes the eye to report to the brain, thus throwing the inner image without. The phenomena of the other senses may be tabulated in the same manner.=20 SEANCES AND MEDIUMS =3D CHANNELING The question of materialization of forms at seances deserves some attention. Communication includes trance-speaking, slate and other writing, independent voices in the air, speaking through the physical vocal organs of the medium, and precipitation of written messages out of the air. Do the mediums communicate with the spirits of the dead? Do our departed friends perceive the state of life they have left, and do they sometimes return to speak to and with us?=20 Our departed do not see us here. They are relieved from the terrible pang such a sight would inflict. Once in a while a pure-minded, unpaid medium may ascend in trance to the state in which a deceased soul is, and may remember some bits of what was there heard; but this is rare.=20 Now and then in the course of decades some high human spirit may for a moment return and by unmistakable means communicate with mortals. At the moment of death the soul may speak to some friend on earth before the door is finally shut. But the mass of communications alleged as made day after day through mediums are from the astral unintelligent remains of men, or in many cases entirely the production of, invention, compilation, discovery, and collocation by the loosely attached Astral body of the living medium. . Materialization of a form out of the air, independent of the medium's physical body, is a fact. But it is not a spirit.=20 As was very well said by one of the "spirits" not favored by spiritualism, one way to produce this phenomenon is by the accretion of electrical and magnetic particles into one mass upon which matter is aggregated and an image reflected out of the Astral sphere. This is the whole of it; as much a fraud as a collection of muslin and masks. How this is accomplished is another matter. The spirits are not able to tell, but an attempt has been made to indicate the methods and instruments in former chapters.=20 The second method is by the use of the Astral body of the living medium. In this case the Astral form exudes from the side of the medium, gradually collects upon itself particles extracted from the air and the bodies of the sitters present, until at last it becomes visible. Sometimes it will resemble the medium; at others it bears a different appearance.=20 In almost every instance dimness of light is requisite because a high light would disturb the Astral substance in a violent manner and render the projection difficult. Some so-called materializations are hollow mockeries, as they are but flat plates of electrical and magnetic substance on which pictures from the Astral Light are reflected. These seem to be the faces of the dead, but they are simply pictured illusions.=20 PSYCHIC PHENOMENA - AN UNDERSTANDING OF CAUSES If one is to understand the psychic phenomena found in the history of "spiritualism" it is necessary to know and admit the following:=20 I. The complete heredity of man astrally, spiritually, and psychically, as a being who knows, reasons, feels, and acts through the body, the Astral body, and the soul.=20 II. The nature of the mind, its operation, its powers; the nature and power of imagination; the duration and effect of impressions. Most important in this is the persistence of the slightest impression as well as the deepest; that every impression produces a picture in the individual aura; and that by means of this a connection is established between the auras of friends and relatives old, new, near, distant, and remote in degree: this would give a wide range of possible sight to a clairvoyant.=20 III. The nature, extent, function, and power of man's inner Astral organs and faculties included in the terms Astral body and Kama. That these are not hindered from action by trance or sleep, but are increased in the medium when entranced; at the same time their action is not free, but governed by the mass chord of thought among the sitters, or by a predominating will, or by the presiding devil behind the scenes; if a sceptical scientific investigator be present, his mental attitude may totally inhibit the action of the medium's powers by what we might call a freezing process which no English terms will adequately describe.=20 IV. The fate of the Real Man after death, his state, power, activity there, and his relation, if any, to those left behind him here.=20 V. That the intermediary between mind and body -- the Astral body -- is thrown off at death and left in the Astral light to fade away; and that the real man goes to Devachan.=20 VI. The existence, nature, power, and function of the Astral light and its place as a register in Nature. That it contains, retains, and reflects pictures of each and every thing that happened to anyone, and also every thought; that it permeates the globe and the atmosphere around it; that the transmission of vibration through it is practically instantaneous, since the rate is much quicker than that of electricity as now known.=20 VII. The existence in the Astral light of beings not using bodies like ours, but not human in their nature, having powers, faculties, and a sort of consciousness of their own; these include the elemental forces or nature sprites divided into many degrees, and which have to do with every operation of Nature and every motion of the mind of man.=20 That these elementals act at seances automatically in their various departments, one class presenting pictures, another producing sounds, and others depolarizing objects for the purposes of apportation. Acting with them in this Astral sphere are the soulless men who live in it. To these are to be ascribed the phenomenon, among others, of the "independent voice," always sounding like a voice in a barrel just because it is made in a vacuum which is absolutely necessary for an entity so far removed from spirit. The peculiar timbre of this sort of voice has not been noticed by the spiritualists as important, but it is extremely significant in the view of occultism.=20 VIII. The existence and operation of occult laws and forces in nature which may be used to produce phenomenal results on this plane; that these laws and forces may be put into operation by the subconscious man and by the elementals either consciously or unconsciously, and that many of these occult operations are automatic in the same way as is the freezing of water under intense cold or the melting of ice under heat.=20 IX. That the Astral body of the medium, partaking of the nature of the Astral substance, may be extended from the physical body, may act outside of the latter, and may also extrude at times any portion of itself such as hand, arm, or leg and thereby move objects, indite letters, produce touches on the body, and so on ad infinitum. And that the Astral body of any person may be made to feel sensation, which, being transmitted to the brain, causes the person to think he is touched on the outside or has heard a sound.=20 Mediumship is full of dangers because the Astral part of the man is now only normal in action when joined to the body; in distant years it will normally act without a body as it has in the far past. To become a medium means that you have to become disorganized physiologically and in the nervous system, because through the latter is the connection between the two worlds. The moment the door is opened all the unknown forces rush in, and as the grosser part of nature is nearest to us it is that part which affects us most; the lower nature is also first affected and inflamed because the forces used are from that part of us.=20 We are then at the mercy of the vile thoughts of all men, and subject to the influence of the shells in Kama Loka. If to this be added the taking of money for the practice of mediumship, an additional danger is at hand, for the things of the spirit and those relating to the Astral world must not be sold. This is the great disease of American spiritualism which has debased and degraded its whole history; until it is eliminated no good will come from the practice; those who wish to hear truth from the other world must devote themselves to truth and leave all considerations of money out of sight.=20 To attempt to acquire the use of the psychic powers for mere curiosity or for selfish ends is also dangerous for the same reasons as in the case of mediumship. As the civilization of the present day is selfish to the last degree and built on the personal element, the rules for the development of these powers in the right way have not been given out, but the Masters of Wisdom have said that philosophy and ethics must first be learned and practiced before any development of the other department is to be indulged in; and their condemnation of the wholesale development of mediums is supported by the history of spiritualism, which is one long story of the ruin of mediums in every direction.=20 HYPNOTISM =3D=3D ITS DANGERS Equally improper is the manner of the scientific schools which without a thought for the true nature of man indulge in experiments in hypnotism in which the subjects are injured for life, put into disgraceful attitudes, and made to do things for the satisfaction of the investigators which would never be done by men and women in their normal state.=20 The Lodge of the Masters does not care for Science unless it aims to better man's state morally as well as physically, and no aid will be given to Science until she looks at man and life from the moral and spiritual side. For this reason those who know all about the psychical world, its denizens and laws, are proceeding with a reform in morals and philosophy before any great attention will be accorded to the strange and seductive phenomena possible for the inner powers of man. . Extracts from the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY -- W Q JUDGE=20 DTB =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Kier=20=20 Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 9:24 PM To: BN-STUDY Subject: Re :Physical Phenomena at a Seance=20 It is interesting that such physical phenomena is still being taking place. I have attended many, but they were all on the mental and spiritual level. I thought that perhaps mediumship had evolved past the physical. This account seems to indicate that this type of experiment from the 1890s is still possible, with some mediums. Perhaps the spiral of evolution is up an octave above 100 years ago. Some of the equipment that we have today in the digital area should be able to photograph in almost dark conditions, something that the slow films with heavy filters were unable to do in the past. It would be interesting to see what is actually taking place with the substance that the physical body is generating. It was always my observation that it is the physical body that is doing this, and capable of doing this, so what do we need "spirits" for, in the explanation of what is actually taking place. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Dec 01 07:12:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78380 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2003 15:12:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2003 15:12:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2003 15:12:43 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44fcf.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.79.207]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 26426262B6D for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2003 16:12:42 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002901c3b81d$8b2843a0$cf4fa450@khidr> To: References: Subject: Re: What about the VISIT made to the Golden Temple Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 16:12:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 193.162.153.4 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Netemara and all of you, My views are just views: You have a different view than I have on the subject we email about. To disagree is what happens. We are learning. I know that you mean well and I think you know that I do so too. I have read the Alice A. Bailey books more than one time and have been a former member of a very pro-Bailey organisation. Because of that - I offer the following method, which were used in the olden days - although not via email. Let us then exchange some emails (10-20 if needed) on the issue - and see if any of us can convince the other about what is the truth of the matter. I could be very fruitfull to all at this place. Agreed ? Do you accept the offer ? I think the subject is important and deserves attention. Especially because of the degree of involvement Lucis Trust and other so-called branched Bailey groups has with the United Nations. Let me now answer your email. Netemara wrote: "It is the Bailey trust which holds a great deal of influence over the U.N. whether you realize this or not I don't know." My answer: Well, let us just suppose that this is true. Then it is no wonder why they (U.N.) are so silent as they are about the killing of a lot of muslims these days. Without anyone saying anything or making any real protest I find it all very problematic. As an answer to the quoted Bailey view on the stated fact that Mohammedanism was a hybrid offshoot and no real religion when compared with Christianity - Netemara wrote : - "Yes, that's true based on my research about its foundation." My answer: I disagree. it is based on YOUR own research. But others certainly have a quite different opintion than you and with good reason. If they have, have you then ever wondered why ? Do you truely and honestly expect a muslim audience to fall for that opinion of yours ? Do you at all have a clue to why such a view is or could be false and why Bailey wrote the words she did ? Just because Blavatsky did'nt touch much upon that religion and culture for obvious reasons - Bailey saw it fitting to transform it into a "hybrid offshoot". I find this distastefull. And Baileys writings are one of the reasons why Blavatsky-related Theosophy is where it is today. Bailey has had success in damaging the TRUE theosophical cause (the wisdom tradition) by for instance remarks like the one we talk about here. But true, NO spiritual evolution happens without resistence and opposition on this level of the seven scheme-a-s. As it is written in the below Blavatsky didn't write much on the Middle Eastern teachings because not many scriptures were transleated at her time of writing. Even Mrs. Kingsford's attempt on "Asclepios" has faults, which Blavatsky also points out. It is a wellknown and accepted fact, that even Blavatsky's version of The Secret Doctrine was written with an western audience in mind. (I am not alone in that view. Many later theosophists are agreeing to that.) And still - you Netemara appearntly holds the view, that the Alice A. Bailey writings are suited to a Middle Eastern audience ! Is that really honestly your view ? I find such a view totally wrong. I only stated my views in my previous email. What I know about the future is a view - not a claim. But if you think that about one billion Muslims will follow the teachings of the "hybrid offshoot" - then I think you are way too far out. Of course if you killed them, and then invaded the countries you might reach success, but that is a very bad idea. If you - really - want to learn, and are not too filled with emotion, then read the below. We have from the Secret Doctrine the following - which tells their tales on the use of the English language and esoteric teachings: 1. The following has to do with Hermes - Pymander - Taken from Vol. 1, Page 288 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: "This is quite consistent with the Vedantic teaching. The leading thought is Occult; and many are the passages in the Hermetic Fragments that belong bodily to the Secret Doctrine. The latter teaches that the whole universe is ruled by intelligent and semi-intelligent Forces and Powers, as stated from the very beginning. Christian Theology admits and even enforces belief in such, but makes an arbitrary division and refers to them as "Angels" and "Devils." Science denies the existence of such, and ridicules the very idea. Spiritualists believe in the Spirits of the Dead, and, outside these, deny entirely any other kind or class of invisible beings. The Occultists and Kabalists are thus the only rational expounders of the ancient traditions, which have now culminated in dogmatic faith on the one hand, and dogmatic denials on the other. For, both belief and unbelief embrace but one small corner each of the infinite horizons of spiritual and physical manifestations; and thus both are right from ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [[Vol. 1, Page]] 288 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. their respective standpoints, and both are wrong in believing that they can circumscribe the whole within their own special and narrow barriers; for -- they can never do so. In this respect Science, Theology, and even Spiritualism show little more wisdom than the ostrich does, when it hides its head in the sand at its feet, feeling sure that there can be thus nothing beyond its own point of observation and the limited area occupied by its foolish head. As the only works now extant upon the subject under consideration within reach of the profane of the Western "civilized" races are the above-mentioned Hermetic Books, or rather Hermetic Fragments, we may contrast them in the present case with the teachings of Esoteric philosophy. To quote for this purpose from any other would be useless, since the public knows nothing of the Chaldean works which are translated into Arabic and preserved by some Sufi initiates. Therefore the "Definitions of Asclepios," as lately compiled and glossed by Mrs. A. Kingsford, F.T.S., some of which sayings are in remarkable agreement with the Esoteric Eastern doctrine, have to be resorted to for comparison. Though not a few passages show a strong impression of some later Christian hand, yet on the whole the characteristics of the genii* and gods are those of eastern teachings, while concerning other things there are passages which differ widely in our doctrines." ( http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-13.htm ) 2. - Taken from Vol. 1, Page 269 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: "SUMMING UP. "The History of Creation and of this world from its beginning up to the present time is composed of seven chapters. The seventh chapter is not yet written." (T. Subba Row, Theosophist, 1881.) THE first of these Seven chapters has been attempted and is now finished. However incomplete and feeble as an exposition, it is, at any rate, an approximation -- using the word in a mathematical sense -- to that which is the oldest basis for all the subsequent Cosmogonies. The attempt to render in a European tongue the grand panorama of the ever periodically recurring Law -- impressed upon the plastic minds of the first races endowed with Consciousness by those who reflected the same from the Universal Mind -- is daring, for no human language, save the Sanskrit -- which is that of the Gods -- can do so with any degree of adequacy. But the failures in this work must be forgiven for the sake of the motive." ( [[Vol. 1, Page]] 269 THE FIRST CHAPTER OF CREATION.) http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-13.htm (The ULT version is similar on this issue.) 3. - Taken from Vol. 1, Page 299 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: "So much from the astronomical and cosmic standpoints viewed and expressed in symbolical language -- which became in our last races theological and dogmatic." --- All that said, I think I agree with you, that the Alice A. Bailey books today and through the last few decades have had a great pull on the Newcomers minds - the newcomers, which have begun their quest for knowledge and wisdom. Today many can read intellectual books and do so. At Blavatskys time of writing it was different. The intellectuals then was of a different background and was not as many as today. The - "pull" is what is important. Because TS has not experienced the same "pull". But the more wise among the Bailey's sometimes later become members at one of the TS groups. Even so the Brainwashing methodology wasn't related to then and neither at Baileys time, when she was writing her books. The theories of brainwashing and New Age - really first saw the light from 1950'ies and 1960'ies with Flower Power (-- "peace and love" --- smile...) and the acceptance of the science of psychology. The difference of "believing" what you read and really "knowing by wisdom" what you read are - huge. And many newcomers falls prey to this obstacle. Because they are used to believeing and not knowing. Because of that the Alice A. Bailey writings has had many followers of the - superficial kind. Followers, which are not really interested in wisdom "Atma-Vidya", but who are interested in - New Age, astral energies, social tribalism, or social tea, talk and gossip. They truely act like the Fox Mulder poster says "I want to believe". It is so fitting a sentence, and can very well be related to the many newcomers at the Bailey organisations. They get attracted to various organisations and groups. One day it is the local Bailey group. another day it is the local Hare Krishna, Gurdjieff or Scientology etc. They don't really know - how to learn, and at what group they really are able to learn if at any of the mentioned. The massmedias influence - today - on the newcomers minds are imense and shouldn't be underestimated by any - theosophist or Bailey-ist. The massmedias influence has to be related to when promoting - the wisdom teachings - no matter what book one prefers to throw at the newcomer as a sort of new pet-Bible. That is why I find, that the Bailey books are not suited to the present activities, which are going on in The Middle East. Others says - great ! Bailey is cool - and that it is just the Shamballa force which are doing its job destroying the Middle Eastern culture - i.e. the Hybrid offshoot ! It is just justice - karma and what ever - which are happening, and that a any muslim is a terrorist. And if not, he or she will problably be so tomorrow - or else the children will. This is what is really going on in some Bailey circles. Some readers might disagree. But facts are facts ! Because of these facts - I have a strong tendency to be carefull about promoting the Bailey books as a pet-Bible to anyone. I know, that Netemara has a quite different view than I am painting in the above. And I respect that as far as non-violence are followed. But there are limits to what I want to promote - year 2003. The "astral body" scheme appearnly invented by Blavatsky - has its origins from the Perisa-India area of the Khwajagan Sufis (also called the Master Sufis. Kwhajagan = Master). The sufis Naqshbandi Order are their ancestors. These sufis are the followers of the Avatar doctrine of the master Khidr or Kizr - also known as The Green Guide. (This figure are mentioned in the Quran) !!! What do you the reader think about all of this ??? I have done my best. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Mon Dec 01 07:26:07 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 10337 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2003 15:26:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2003 15:26:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2003 15:26:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2003 15:25:38 -0000 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 15:25:38 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: a la Confucius; Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 318 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.66 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 62.234.183.216 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker Through the righteousness in the heart the character is made more beautiful; with the beauty of character harmony is established in the home; when harmony is established in each home; order is established in the nation; when there is order in the nation, peace is established in the world. Let's do that! Christina. From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Dec 01 15:10:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 8010 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2003 23:10:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2003 23:10:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2003 23:10:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.123] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2003 23:10:06 -0000 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:10:05 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: re "TS as an evolutionary vehicle" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3FCA4FE5.8010603@idirect.ca> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2125 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.73 From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 163.179.134.195 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Mauri wrote: > netemara888@y... wrote: > > < Theosophical Society as an evolutionary > vehicle is dead, but it is. That does not > make it worthless, just that it needs > adjunctive links to make it viable for a > spiritual-minded person. >> > > Seems to me that people, in general, might > optionally define of themselves partly in > terms of "adjunctive links," in a sense, > among other things, towards a number of > things, including Theosophy. That's a nice connection that you make here. And it is truth as well. But what I am talking about I guess would be something which is not so much along the lines of intellectual satisfaction. One thing that the RS masters would say, and that I like, is that one must satisfy the intellect before chosing the path to meditation and going beyond the three worlds. I've been under > the impression that Theosophy is, > essentially, whatever an individual makes it. This is where I place Theosophy as satisfying the intellect. > Seems to me that the esoteric nature of > Theosophy I don't think the esoteric nature is the problem. It's light has been put in another place is all I am saying. might tend to make it somewhat > generally confusing and unappealing, for a > number of people, so that, in that sense, it > might seem kind of deadish, I guess, to some > people, maybe ... The life is the light, and vice versa. And that is what is missing from Theosophy. I don't mean the people themselves who study it. I guess I mean the direction. Yes, that sums it up. It's like some countries who were once great and had a golden age, are now not thriving. Look at America now. It has all these advanced souls and great destiny and look at some of the countries in Africa or in S. America. They are dead or dying in some ways spiritually. and I for one am not attracted to those places now. Even though we are the great materialists the East has said WE the US has the dharma, that's good enough for me. Namaste Netemara > > Speculatively, > Mauri From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Dec 01 15:17:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2879 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2003 23:17:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2003 23:17:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2003 23:17:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.115] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2003 23:17:11 -0000 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:17:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: What about the VISIT made to the Golden Temple Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002901c3b81d$8b2843a0$cf4fa450@khidr> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 12934 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.81 From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 163.179.134.195 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hallo Netemara and all of you, > Hi Morten, You can challenge me or my views all you want. But my views and research are really a cover for what I have uncovered through spiritual and meditation revelations. These will be and have been given out in bits and pieces on my website. Now, the truth about this is buried in there somewhere. It is hidden in part because I hid it. But I have the okay to begin giving out this in detail and in no uncertain terms. My work is cyclical and contains the truth based on lifetimes and thousands of years of destiny and not just the so-called now. We will never agree until and unless you come up to where I am and I will show you on the inside what the truth is about much of this--or as much of it as you can stand. The bottom line is the connection that we all have is more than we can bear. Namaste Netemara > > My views are just views: > > You have a different view than I have on the subject we email about. > To disagree is what happens. We are learning. > I know that you mean well and I think you know that I do so too. > I have read the Alice A. Bailey books more than one time and have been a > former member of a very pro-Bailey organisation. > > Because of that - I offer the following method, which were used in the olden > days - although not via email. > Let us then exchange some emails (10-20 if needed) on the issue - and see if > any of us can convince the other > about what is the truth of the matter. I could be very fruitfull to all at > this place. > Agreed ? Do you accept the offer ? > > I think the subject is important and deserves attention. Especially because > of the degree of involvement Lucis Trust > and other so-called branched Bailey groups has with the United Nations. > > > Let me now answer your email. > > Netemara wrote: > "It is the Bailey trust which holds a great deal of influence over > the U.N. whether you realize this or not I don't know." > > My answer: > Well, let us just suppose that this is true. > Then it is no wonder why they (U.N.) are so silent as they are about the > killing of a lot of muslims > these days. Without anyone saying anything or making any real protest I find > it all very problematic. > > As an answer to the quoted Bailey view on the stated fact that Mohammedanism > was a hybrid offshoot > and no real religion when compared with Christianity - > Netemara wrote : > - "Yes, that's true based on my research about its foundation." > > My answer: > I disagree. it is based on YOUR own research. > But others certainly have a quite different opintion than you and with good > reason. > If they have, have you then ever wondered why ? > Do you truely and honestly expect a muslim audience to fall for that opinion > of yours ? > Do you at all have a clue to why such a view is or could be false and why > Bailey wrote the words she did ? > > Just because Blavatsky did'nt touch much upon that religion and culture for > obvious reasons - Bailey > saw it fitting to transform it into a "hybrid offshoot". I find this > distastefull. > And Baileys writings are one of the reasons why Blavatsky-related Theosophy > is where it is today. > Bailey has had success in damaging the TRUE theosophical cause (the wisdom > tradition) by for instance remarks like the one > we talk about here. But true, NO spiritual evolution happens without > resistence and opposition on this level of the seven scheme-a-s. > As it is written in the below Blavatsky didn't write much on the Middle > Eastern teachings because not many > scriptures were transleated at her time of writing. Even Mrs. Kingsford's > attempt on "Asclepios" has faults, > which Blavatsky also points out. > > It is a wellknown and accepted fact, that even Blavatsky's version of The > Secret Doctrine was written with an western audience in mind. > (I am not alone in that view. Many later theosophists are agreeing to that.) > And still - you Netemara appearntly holds the view, that the Alice A. Bailey > writings are suited to a Middle Eastern audience ! > Is that really honestly your view ? > I find such a view totally wrong. > > I only stated my views in my previous email. What I know about the future is > a view - not a claim. > But if you think that about one billion Muslims will follow the teachings of > the "hybrid offshoot" - then I think you are way too far out. > Of course if you killed them, and then invaded the countries you might reach > success, but that is a very bad idea. > > > If you - really - want to learn, and are not too filled with emotion, then > read the below. > > We have from the Secret Doctrine the following - which tells their tales on > the use of the English language and esoteric teachings: > > 1. The following has to do with Hermes - Pymander - Taken from Vol. 1, Page > 288 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > > "This is quite consistent with the Vedantic teaching. The leading thought is > Occult; and many are the passages in the Hermetic Fragments that belong > bodily to the Secret Doctrine. > The latter teaches that the whole universe is ruled by intelligent and > semi-intelligent Forces and Powers, as stated from the very beginning. > Christian Theology admits and even enforces belief in such, but makes an > arbitrary division and refers to them as "Angels" and "Devils." Science > denies the existence of such, and ridicules the very idea. Spiritualists > believe in the Spirits of the Dead, and, outside these, deny entirely any > other kind or class of invisible beings. The Occultists and Kabalists are > thus the only rational expounders of the ancient traditions, which have now > culminated in dogmatic faith on the one hand, and dogmatic denials on the > other. For, both belief and unbelief embrace but one small corner each of > the infinite horizons of spiritual and physical manifestations; and thus > both are right from > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > ---- > > [[Vol. 1, Page]] 288 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. > their respective standpoints, and both are wrong in believing that they can > circumscribe the whole within their own special and narrow barriers; for -- > they can never do so. In this respect Science, Theology, and even > Spiritualism show little more wisdom than the ostrich does, when it hides > its head in the sand at its feet, feeling sure that there can be thus > nothing beyond its own point of observation and the limited area occupied by > its foolish head. > > As the only works now extant upon the subject under consideration within > reach of the profane of the Western "civilized" races are the > above-mentioned Hermetic Books, or rather Hermetic Fragments, we may > contrast them in the present case with the teachings of Esoteric philosophy. > To quote for this purpose from any other would be useless, since the public > knows nothing of the Chaldean works which are translated into Arabic and > preserved by some Sufi initiates. Therefore the "Definitions of Asclepios," > as lately compiled and glossed by Mrs. A. Kingsford, F.T.S., some of which > sayings are in remarkable agreement with the Esoteric Eastern doctrine, have > to be resorted to for comparison. Though not a few passages show a strong > impression of some later Christian hand, yet on the whole the > characteristics of the genii* and gods are those of eastern teachings, while > concerning other things there are passages which differ widely in our > doctrines." ( http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-13.htm ) > > > > 2. - Taken from Vol. 1, Page 269 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > "SUMMING UP. > "The History of Creation and of this world from its beginning up to the > present time is composed of seven chapters. The seventh chapter is not yet > written." > (T. Subba Row, Theosophist, 1881.) > THE first of these Seven chapters has been attempted and is now finished. > However incomplete and feeble as an exposition, it is, at any rate, an > approximation -- using the word in a mathematical sense -- to that which is > the oldest basis for all the subsequent Cosmogonies. The attempt to render > in a European tongue the grand panorama of the ever periodically recurring > Law -- impressed upon the plastic minds of the first races endowed with > Consciousness by those who reflected the same from the Universal Mind -- is > daring, for no human language, save the Sanskrit -- which is that of the > Gods -- can do so with any degree of adequacy. But the failures in this work > must be forgiven for the sake of the motive." ( [[Vol. 1, Page]] 269 THE > FIRST CHAPTER OF CREATION.) > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-13.htm (The ULT version is > similar on this issue.) > > 3. - Taken from Vol. 1, Page 299 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > "So much from the astronomical and cosmic standpoints viewed and expressed > in symbolical language -- which became in our last races theological and > dogmatic." > > --- > > All that said, I think I agree with you, that the Alice A. Bailey books > today and through the last few decades have had a great pull on the > Newcomers minds - > the newcomers, which have begun their quest for knowledge and wisdom. Today > many can read intellectual books and do so. At Blavatskys time of writing it > was different. The intellectuals then was of a different background and was > not as many as today. The - "pull" is what is important. Because TS has not > experienced the same "pull". But the more wise among the Bailey's sometimes > later become members at one of the TS groups. > > Even so the Brainwashing methodology wasn't related to then and neither at > Baileys time, when she was writing her books. The theories of brainwashing > and New Age - really first saw the light from 1950'ies and 1960'ies with > Flower Power (-- "peace and love" --- smile...) and the acceptance of the > science of psychology. > > The difference of "believing" what you read and really "knowing by wisdom" > what you read are - huge. And many newcomers falls prey to this obstacle. > Because they are used to believeing and not knowing. Because of that the > Alice A. Bailey writings has had many followers of the - superficial kind. > Followers, which are not really interested in wisdom "Atma-Vidya", but who > are interested in - New Age, astral energies, social tribalism, or social > tea, talk and gossip. > They truely act like the Fox Mulder poster says "I want to believe". It is > so fitting a sentence, and can very well be related to the many newcomers at > the Bailey organisations. > > They get attracted to various organisations and groups. One day it is the > local Bailey group. another day it is the local Hare Krishna, Gurdjieff or > Scientology etc. > They don't really know - how to learn, and at what group they really are > able to learn if at any of the mentioned. > The massmedias influence - today - on the newcomers minds are imense and > shouldn't be underestimated by any - theosophist or Bailey-ist. > The massmedias influence has to be related to when promoting - the wisdom > teachings - no matter what book one prefers to throw at the newcomer as a > sort of new pet-Bible. > > That is why I find, that the Bailey books are not suited to the present > activities, which are going on in The Middle East. > Others says - great ! Bailey is cool - and that it is just the Shamballa > force which are doing its job destroying the Middle Eastern culture - i.e. > the Hybrid offshoot ! > It is just justice - karma and what ever - which are happening, and that a > any muslim is a terrorist. And if not, he or she will problably be so > tomorrow - or else the children will. This is what is really going on in > some Bailey circles. Some readers might disagree. But facts are facts ! > > Because of these facts - I have a strong tendency to be carefull about > promoting the Bailey books as a pet-Bible to anyone. > > I know, that Netemara has a quite different view than I am painting in the > above. > And I respect that as far as non-violence are followed. But there are limits > to what I want to promote - year 2003. > > The "astral body" scheme appearnly invented by Blavatsky - has its origins > from the Perisa-India area of the Khwajagan Sufis (also called the Master > Sufis. Kwhajagan = Master). The sufis Naqshbandi Order are their ancestors. > These sufis are the followers of the Avatar doctrine of the master Khidr or > Kizr - also known as The Green Guide. (This figure are mentioned in the > Quran) !!! > > > > What do you the reader think about all of this ??? > I have done my best. > > from > M. Sufilight with peace and love... > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Dec 01 15:30:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28000 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2003 23:30:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2003 23:30:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2003 23:30:11 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2003 23:30:06 -0000 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:30:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: What about the VISIT made to the Golden Temple--Morten Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 15554 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.92 From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 163.179.134.195 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "netemara888" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" theosophy@a...> wrote: > > Hallo Netemara and all of you, > > > > Hi Morten, > > You can challenge me or my views all you want. But my views and > research are really a cover for what I have uncovered through > spiritual and meditation revelations. These will be and have been > given out in bits and pieces on my website. Now, the truth about > this is buried in there somewhere. It is hidden in part because I > hid it. But I have the okay to begin giving out this in detail and > in no uncertain terms. > > My work is cyclical and contains the truth based on lifetimes and > thousands of years of destiny and not just the so-called now. We > will never agree until and unless you come up to where I am and I > will show you on the inside what the truth is about much of this-- or > as much of it as you can stand. The bottom line is the connection > that we all have is more than we can bear. > > Namaste > > Netemara > > > > > > My views are just views: > > > > You have a different view than I have on the subject we email > about. > > To disagree is what happens. We are learning. > > I know that you mean well and I think you know that I do so too. > > I have read the Alice A. Bailey books more than one time and have > been a > > former member of a very pro-Bailey organisation. > > > > Because of that - I offer the following method, which were used in > the olden > > days - although not via email. > > Let us then exchange some emails (10-20 if needed) on the issue - > and see if > > any of us can convince the other > > about what is the truth of the matter. I could be very fruitfull > to all at > > this place. > > Agreed ? Do you accept the offer ? > > > > I think the subject is important and deserves attention. > Especially because > > of the degree of involvement Lucis Trust > > and other so-called branched Bailey groups has with the United > Nations. > > > > > > Let me now answer your email. > > > > Netemara wrote: > > "It is the Bailey trust which holds a great deal of influence over > > the U.N. whether you realize this or not I don't know." > > > > My answer: > > Well, let us just suppose that this is true. > > Then it is no wonder why they (U.N.) are so silent as they are > about the > > killing of a lot of muslims > > these days. Without anyone saying anything or making any real > protest I find > > it all very problematic. > > > > As an answer to the quoted Bailey view on the stated fact that > Mohammedanism > > was a hybrid offshoot > > and no real religion when compared with Christianity - > > Netemara wrote : > > - "Yes, that's true based on my research about its foundation." > > > > My answer: > > I disagree. it is based on YOUR own research. > > But others certainly have a quite different opintion than you and > with good > > reason. > > If they have, have you then ever wondered why ? > > Do you truely and honestly expect a muslim audience to fall for > that opinion > > of yours ? > > Do you at all have a clue to why such a view is or could be false > and why > > Bailey wrote the words she did ? > > > > Just because Blavatsky did'nt touch much upon that religion and > culture for > > obvious reasons - Bailey > > saw it fitting to transform it into a "hybrid offshoot". I find > this > > distastefull. > > And Baileys writings are one of the reasons why Blavatsky- related > Theosophy > > is where it is today. > > Bailey has had success in damaging the TRUE theosophical cause > (the wisdom > > tradition) by for instance remarks like the one > > we talk about here. But true, NO spiritual evolution happens > without > > resistence and opposition on this level of the seven scheme-a-s. > > As it is written in the below Blavatsky didn't write much on the > Middle > > Eastern teachings because not many > > scriptures were transleated at her time of writing. Even Mrs. > Kingsford's > > attempt on "Asclepios" has faults, > > which Blavatsky also points out. > > > > It is a wellknown and accepted fact, that even Blavatsky's version > of The > > Secret Doctrine was written with an western audience in mind. > > (I am not alone in that view. Many later theosophists are agreeing > to that.) > > And still - you Netemara appearntly holds the view, that the Alice > A. Bailey > > writings are suited to a Middle Eastern audience ! > > Is that really honestly your view ? > > I find such a view totally wrong. That sounds a bit racist to me. Are you saying that they are not equal to following these teachings? > > > > I only stated my views in my previous email. What I know about the > future is > > a view - not a claim. > > But if you think that about one billion Muslims will follow the > teachings of > > the "hybrid offshoot" - then I think you are way too far out. No religion including Islam is created in a cultural vacuum. Don't forget this. These things are created because of, in spite of, in agreement with, in conjunction with and in assistance of the culture that is its home. There Islam has been elevated by virtue of the fact that it was born in a desert culture which needed refinement and laws just like any other culture. Islam and Mohammed were galvanizers. I see the rise of Islam, don't kid yourself. I saw it rise like a huge sword out of the sea some 20 years ago. Does that mean it will conquer the free world? I am saying that it could, that's what you don't see. We in the West are more fractious than the Middle Eastern fundamentalist, even though they are quite happy with the different sects founded. And if we continue to humiliate them (in their eyes) we may be in for the greatest killing and bloodshed ever seen. Poverty and humiliation do not make good bedfellows. That is where the Islamic world is at this time (even the rich Saudis could fall behind this.) But what caused these sects? Mostly ignorance of each other's dialects and particular religious observations and conventions. These things are NOT mystical at all but rather practical. Just like Judaism it is a bunch of laws and ceremonies, no love there from what I see. And I don't see much love in Islam either, just laws and ceremonies. The difference is that Christianity is the culmination of Love and Wisdom. This is the force behind the greatness of Western culture. It is the religions which have made cultures great and not the other way around, in my opinion. Netemara > > Of course if you killed them, and then invaded the countries you > might reach > > success, but that is a very bad idea. > > > > > > If you - really - want to learn, and are not too filled with > emotion, then > > read the below. > > > > We have from the Secret Doctrine the following - which tells their > tales on > > the use of the English language and esoteric teachings: > > > > 1. The following has to do with Hermes - Pymander - Taken from > Vol. 1, Page > > 288 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > > > > "This is quite consistent with the Vedantic teaching. The leading > thought is > > Occult; and many are the passages in the Hermetic Fragments that > belong > > bodily to the Secret Doctrine. > > The latter teaches that the whole universe is ruled by intelligent > and > > semi-intelligent Forces and Powers, as stated from the very > beginning. > > Christian Theology admits and even enforces belief in such, but > makes an > > arbitrary division and refers to them as "Angels" and "Devils." > Science > > denies the existence of such, and ridicules the very idea. > Spiritualists > > believe in the Spirits of the Dead, and, outside these, deny > entirely any > > other kind or class of invisible beings. The Occultists and > Kabalists are > > thus the only rational expounders of the ancient traditions, which > have now > > culminated in dogmatic faith on the one hand, and dogmatic denials > on the > > other. For, both belief and unbelief embrace but one small corner > each of > > the infinite horizons of spiritual and physical manifestations; > and thus > > both are right from > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > --------- > > ---- > > > > [[Vol. 1, Page]] 288 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. > > their respective standpoints, and both are wrong in believing that > they can > > circumscribe the whole within their own special and narrow > barriers; for -- > > they can never do so. In this respect Science, Theology, and even > > Spiritualism show little more wisdom than the ostrich does, when > it hides > > its head in the sand at its feet, feeling sure that there can be > thus > > nothing beyond its own point of observation and the limited area > occupied by > > its foolish head. > > > > As the only works now extant upon the subject under consideration > within > > reach of the profane of the Western "civilized" races are the > > above-mentioned Hermetic Books, or rather Hermetic Fragments, we > may > > contrast them in the present case with the teachings of Esoteric > philosophy. > > To quote for this purpose from any other would be useless, since > the public > > knows nothing of the Chaldean works which are translated into > Arabic and > > preserved by some Sufi initiates. Therefore the "Definitions of > Asclepios," > > as lately compiled and glossed by Mrs. A. Kingsford, F.T.S., some > of which > > sayings are in remarkable agreement with the Esoteric Eastern > doctrine, have > > to be resorted to for comparison. Though not a few passages show a > strong > > impression of some later Christian hand, yet on the whole the > > characteristics of the genii* and gods are those of eastern > teachings, while > > concerning other things there are passages which differ widely in > our > > doctrines." ( http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1- 13.htm ) > > > > > > > > 2. - Taken from Vol. 1, Page 269 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > > "SUMMING UP. > > "The History of Creation and of this world from its beginning up > to the > > present time is composed of seven chapters. The seventh chapter is > not yet > > written." > > (T. Subba Row, Theosophist, 1881.) > > THE first of these Seven chapters has been attempted and is now > finished. > > However incomplete and feeble as an exposition, it is, at any > rate, an > > approximation -- using the word in a mathematical sense -- to that > which is > > the oldest basis for all the subsequent Cosmogonies. The attempt > to render > > in a European tongue the grand panorama of the ever periodically > recurring > > Law -- impressed upon the plastic minds of the first races endowed > with > > Consciousness by those who reflected the same from the Universal > Mind -- is > > daring, for no human language, save the Sanskrit -- which is that > of the > > Gods -- can do so with any degree of adequacy. But the failures in > this work > > must be forgiven for the sake of the motive." ( [[Vol. 1, Page]] > 269 THE > > FIRST CHAPTER OF CREATION.) > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-13.htm (The ULT > version is > > similar on this issue.) > > > > 3. - Taken from Vol. 1, Page 299 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > > "So much from the astronomical and cosmic standpoints viewed and > expressed > > in symbolical language -- which became in our last races > theological and > > dogmatic." > > > > --- > > > > All that said, I think I agree with you, that the Alice A. Bailey > books > > today and through the last few decades have had a great pull on the > > Newcomers minds - > > the newcomers, which have begun their quest for knowledge and > wisdom. Today > > many can read intellectual books and do so. At Blavatskys time of > writing it > > was different. The intellectuals then was of a different > background and was > > not as many as today. The - "pull" is what is important. Because > TS has not > > experienced the same "pull". But the more wise among the Bailey's > sometimes > > later become members at one of the TS groups. > > > > Even so the Brainwashing methodology wasn't related to then and > neither at > > Baileys time, when she was writing her books. The theories of > brainwashing > > and New Age - really first saw the light from 1950'ies and > 1960'ies with > > Flower Power (-- "peace and love" --- smile...) and the acceptance > of the > > science of psychology. > > > > The difference of "believing" what you read and really "knowing by > wisdom" > > what you read are - huge. And many newcomers falls prey to this > obstacle. > > Because they are used to believeing and not knowing. Because of > that the > > Alice A. Bailey writings has had many followers of the - > superficial kind. > > Followers, which are not really interested in wisdom "Atma- Vidya", > but who > > are interested in - New Age, astral energies, social tribalism, or > social > > tea, talk and gossip. > > They truely act like the Fox Mulder poster says "I want to > believe". It is > > so fitting a sentence, and can very well be related to the many > newcomers at > > the Bailey organisations. > > > > They get attracted to various organisations and groups. One day it > is the > > local Bailey group. another day it is the local Hare Krishna, > Gurdjieff or > > Scientology etc. > > They don't really know - how to learn, and at what group they > really are > > able to learn if at any of the mentioned. > > The massmedias influence - today - on the newcomers minds are > imense and > > shouldn't be underestimated by any - theosophist or Bailey-ist. > > The massmedias influence has to be related to when promoting - the > wisdom > > teachings - no matter what book one prefers to throw at the > newcomer as a > > sort of new pet-Bible. > > > > That is why I find, that the Bailey books are not suited to the > present > > activities, which are going on in The Middle East. > > Others says - great ! Bailey is cool - and that it is just the > Shamballa > > force which are doing its job destroying the Middle Eastern > culture - i.e. > > the Hybrid offshoot ! > > It is just justice - karma and what ever - which are happening, > and that a > > any muslim is a terrorist. And if not, he or she will problably be > so > > tomorrow - or else the children will. This is what is really going > on in > > some Bailey circles. Some readers might disagree. But facts are > facts ! > > > > Because of these facts - I have a strong tendency to be carefull > about > > promoting the Bailey books as a pet-Bible to anyone. > > > > I know, that Netemara has a quite different view than I am > painting in the > > above. > > And I respect that as far as non-violence are followed. But there > are limits > > to what I want to promote - year 2003. > > > > The "astral body" scheme appearnly invented by Blavatsky - has its > origins > > from the Perisa-India area of the Khwajagan Sufis (also called the > Master > > Sufis. Kwhajagan = Master). The sufis Naqshbandi Order are their > ancestors. > > These sufis are the followers of the Avatar doctrine of the master > Khidr or > > Kizr - also known as The Green Guide. (This figure are mentioned > in the > > Quran) !!! > > > > > > > > What do you the reader think about all of this ??? > > I have done my best. > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with peace and love... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Dec 01 15:51:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6974 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2003 23:35:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2003 23:35:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2003 23:35:35 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2003 23:34:10 -0000 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:34:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: What about the VISIT made to the Golden Temple Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2860 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.70 From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 163.179.134.195 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "christinaleestemaker" wrote: > To Netamara, used the 888 in the wrong way! > > You are realy missing the way. > If the theosofist becomes to the buddhish areas then they are > completely on the intuitive level. > > The Sikhs are not they the murderers of Ghandi, the very old Indian > wise man and if such a noble man must die by murdering the group have > had done that is the black side of life, also that is the way you > choose then. > > Be attended, Christina > You lost me Christina, I am not understanding your point here. Namaste Netemara > > > > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "netemara888" > wrote: > > by both Blavatsky and Olcott? I find "Old Diary Leaves" ODL to be a > > golden source of history and one which is accessible to everyone. I > > find it interesting in their love of comparative religions (which > > they lived and not just talked about) to be one which should have > > all of us scratching our heads. I mean they both took pansil--or > > were initiated as Buddhists and then fell in love with the Sikhs > and > > the ceremonies of the Golden Temple! I am not sure off the top of > my > > head if they were initiated into Sikhism, since they were not > > Indian, not sure if that was possible back then, but isn't it > > strange, not to me as I attended the Congress on World Religions, > > held in Chicago which only comes around every 100 years, that they > > went around in and out of religions like it was no big deal? > > > > This is one of my favorite stories about the chums, and it saddens > > me that no one really talks about Olcott and his role in the TS. > > However, Judge is no less an important character. > > > > On Radhasoami studies they are having a big discussion about the > > role of Salig Ram in shaping Radhasoami. Well, it seems that the > > later masters left out one little detail that SR had made clear: > > That everyone could initiate, not just the select line of chosen > > masters. That would be the same as saying that anyone could be a > > priest or perform the same rites as a priest as long as they were > > catholic and had observed the religion for a set period of time. > > > > What does that have to do with the TS today? Well, according to > > Alice Bailey, the TS as a spiritual organ is now defunct, dead, > > over. And if you go to TS meetings around the country, you will > find > > that it has an aura much like the moon, something is missing, and > > it's not just Netemara who finds this. Sure there are some meetings > > which may have a good number of people and meetings, but as an > > evolutionary role and spiritual organ the bataan (sp) or Dharma has > > been passed on to its successor. > > > > Netemara From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Dec 01 15:57:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90354 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2003 23:38:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2003 23:38:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.106) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2003 23:38:44 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.166] by n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2003 23:37:37 -0000 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:37:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: What about the VISIT made to the Golden Temple Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3FC934B1.9030905@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1190 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.106 From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 163.179.134.195 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > By the way, Netemara's post is an excellent example of why there is so > much paranoia in the TS about Alice Bailey devotees. That's funny. I am joined equally to both groups. Netemara > > Katinka Hesselink wrote: > > > Hi Nemeta, > > > > I am curious, what does Bailey say the spiritual function of the TS is > > supposed to be? > > > > Katinka > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "netemara888" wrote: > > > >>What does that have to do with the TS today? Well, according to > >>Alice Bailey, the TS as a spiritual organ is now defunct, dead, > >>over. And if you go to TS meetings around the country, you will find > >>that it has an aura much like the moon, something is missing, and > >>it's not just Netemara who finds this. Sure there are some meetings > >>which may have a good number of people and meetings, but as an > >>evolutionary role and spiritual organ the bataan (sp) or Dharma has > >>been passed on to its successor. > >> > >>Netemara > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > From netemara888@yahoo.com Mon Dec 01 16:00:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 58715 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2003 23:37:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2003 23:37:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.102) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2003 23:37:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2003 23:36:24 -0000 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:36:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: What about the VISIT made to the Golden Temple Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1122 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.102 From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 163.179.134.195 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Katinka Hesselink" wrote: > Hi Nemeta, > > I am curious, what does Bailey say the spiritual function of the TS is > supposed to be? That's the whole point Katinka, it has no spiritual function. I will have to find the exact quote but I am paraphrasing when he said something about ANY group begun after a certain date was no longer functioning as a spiritual vehicle. NOT just the TS. Understand? Netemara > > Katinka > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "netemara888" wrote: > > > > What does that have to do with the TS today? Well, according to > > Alice Bailey, the TS as a spiritual organ is now defunct, dead, > > over. And if you go to TS meetings around the country, you will find > > that it has an aura much like the moon, something is missing, and > > it's not just Netemara who finds this. Sure there are some meetings > > which may have a good number of people and meetings, but as an > > evolutionary role and spiritual organ the bataan (sp) or Dharma has > > been passed on to its successor. > > > > Netemara From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Dec 01 16:26:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18375 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2003 00:26:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2003 00:26:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2003 00:26:38 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44fcf.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.79.207]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A93D47FF4D for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:26:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001301c3b86a$ec81a770$cf4fa450@khidr> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: What about the VISIT made to the Golden Temple Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 01:26:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 193.162.153.2 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Netemara and all of you, My views are: Allright then Netemara, let us suppose that you are that wise as your below email wants the readers to believe. Then please answer me: How do you learn how to learn ? If you can't answer this throughly - you will never learn ¨ me and others anything. To Netemara: Do you give out a teaching, which is not adapted towards time, place and people ? Or do you give out a teaching, which further - culturally - conditions the minds of the Seekers after Wisdom and Truth ? Do your versions of the Wisdom teachings give the aspirant a world view ? --- A world view was what Blavatsky recommended nothing less ! --- As long as the Middle East with its rich symbolical and esoterical teachings are being trampled on in the name of western prejudice about this culture - by some pet-Bible books of a nature which is swarmed by Christian vocabulary, (books written by Alice A. Bailey and a supposed 5th initiate), how can anyone justify such teachings as being valid theosophy and giving the Seekers after Wisdom and Truth a WORLD VIEW ??? Please answer Netemara. What are your view on this ??? To the readers: Try digesting the book "The People of the Secret" by Ernest Scott. This is Middle Eastern theosophy - and certainly not the same as what Netemara is offering you as far as I am concerned. To answer a request from another email: The spiritual function of the TS is according to Bailey - that further revelation will happen. The secret doctrine is no Bible. Bailey also said that The Secret Doctrine came from a higher source than the books she wrote togehter with the one she calls D.K. At Baileys time of writing she saw her (and D.K.'s books) as the tip of the iceberg to the new coming generations in the west (and most certainly not in the Middle East). She wanted her books mixed with Blavatskys writings to be THE teaching of theosophy - and that the teachings of CWL and Annie Beasnt should be thrown somwhere in the trashcan. SHE recognized however, that they may crystalllize - and that they then should be adtaped or changed. (The Unfinished Autobiography). --- And Netemara this were you fail as far as your emailing goes. You do not regocnize that Bailey's teachings already are crystallizing. --- Please tell me if you disagree Netemara - and where the disagreement are. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "netemara888" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 12:17 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: What about the VISIT made to the Golden Temple > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" theosophy@a...> wrote: > > Hallo Netemara and all of you, > > > > Hi Morten, > > You can challenge me or my views all you want. But my views and > research are really a cover for what I have uncovered through > spiritual and meditation revelations. These will be and have been > given out in bits and pieces on my website. Now, the truth about > this is buried in there somewhere. It is hidden in part because I > hid it. But I have the okay to begin giving out this in detail and > in no uncertain terms. > > My work is cyclical and contains the truth based on lifetimes and > thousands of years of destiny and not just the so-called now. We > will never agree until and unless you come up to where I am and I > will show you on the inside what the truth is about much of this--or > as much of it as you can stand. The bottom line is the connection > that we all have is more than we can bear. > > Namaste > > Netemara > > > > > > My views are just views: > > > > You have a different view than I have on the subject we email > about. > > To disagree is what happens. We are learning. > > I know that you mean well and I think you know that I do so too. > > I have read the Alice A. Bailey books more than one time and have > been a > > former member of a very pro-Bailey organisation. > > > > Because of that - I offer the following method, which were used in > the olden > > days - although not via email. > > Let us then exchange some emails (10-20 if needed) on the issue - > and see if > > any of us can convince the other > > about what is the truth of the matter. I could be very fruitfull > to all at > > this place. > > Agreed ? Do you accept the offer ? > > > > I think the subject is important and deserves attention. > Especially because > > of the degree of involvement Lucis Trust > > and other so-called branched Bailey groups has with the United > Nations. > > > > > > Let me now answer your email. > > > > Netemara wrote: > > "It is the Bailey trust which holds a great deal of influence over > > the U.N. whether you realize this or not I don't know." > > > > My answer: > > Well, let us just suppose that this is true. > > Then it is no wonder why they (U.N.) are so silent as they are > about the > > killing of a lot of muslims > > these days. Without anyone saying anything or making any real > protest I find > > it all very problematic. > > > > As an answer to the quoted Bailey view on the stated fact that > Mohammedanism > > was a hybrid offshoot > > and no real religion when compared with Christianity - > > Netemara wrote : > > - "Yes, that's true based on my research about its foundation." > > > > My answer: > > I disagree. it is based on YOUR own research. > > But others certainly have a quite different opintion than you and > with good > > reason. > > If they have, have you then ever wondered why ? > > Do you truely and honestly expect a muslim audience to fall for > that opinion > > of yours ? > > Do you at all have a clue to why such a view is or could be false > and why > > Bailey wrote the words she did ? > > > > Just because Blavatsky did'nt touch much upon that religion and > culture for > > obvious reasons - Bailey > > saw it fitting to transform it into a "hybrid offshoot". I find > this > > distastefull. > > And Baileys writings are one of the reasons why Blavatsky-related > Theosophy > > is where it is today. > > Bailey has had success in damaging the TRUE theosophical cause > (the wisdom > > tradition) by for instance remarks like the one > > we talk about here. But true, NO spiritual evolution happens > without > > resistence and opposition on this level of the seven scheme-a-s. > > As it is written in the below Blavatsky didn't write much on the > Middle > > Eastern teachings because not many > > scriptures were transleated at her time of writing. Even Mrs. > Kingsford's > > attempt on "Asclepios" has faults, > > which Blavatsky also points out. > > > > It is a wellknown and accepted fact, that even Blavatsky's version > of The > > Secret Doctrine was written with an western audience in mind. > > (I am not alone in that view. Many later theosophists are agreeing > to that.) > > And still - you Netemara appearntly holds the view, that the Alice > A. Bailey > > writings are suited to a Middle Eastern audience ! > > Is that really honestly your view ? > > I find such a view totally wrong. > > > > I only stated my views in my previous email. What I know about the > future is > > a view - not a claim. > > But if you think that about one billion Muslims will follow the > teachings of > > the "hybrid offshoot" - then I think you are way too far out. > > Of course if you killed them, and then invaded the countries you > might reach > > success, but that is a very bad idea. > > > > > > If you - really - want to learn, and are not too filled with > emotion, then > > read the below. > > > > We have from the Secret Doctrine the following - which tells their > tales on > > the use of the English language and esoteric teachings: > > > > 1. The following has to do with Hermes - Pymander - Taken from > Vol. 1, Page > > 288 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > > > > "This is quite consistent with the Vedantic teaching. The leading > thought is > > Occult; and many are the passages in the Hermetic Fragments that > belong > > bodily to the Secret Doctrine. > > The latter teaches that the whole universe is ruled by intelligent > and > > semi-intelligent Forces and Powers, as stated from the very > beginning. > > Christian Theology admits and even enforces belief in such, but > makes an > > arbitrary division and refers to them as "Angels" and "Devils." > Science > > denies the existence of such, and ridicules the very idea. > Spiritualists > > believe in the Spirits of the Dead, and, outside these, deny > entirely any > > other kind or class of invisible beings. The Occultists and > Kabalists are > > thus the only rational expounders of the ancient traditions, which > have now > > culminated in dogmatic faith on the one hand, and dogmatic denials > on the > > other. For, both belief and unbelief embrace but one small corner > each of > > the infinite horizons of spiritual and physical manifestations; > and thus > > both are right from > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > ---- > > > > [[Vol. 1, Page]] 288 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. > > their respective standpoints, and both are wrong in believing that > they can > > circumscribe the whole within their own special and narrow > barriers; for -- > > they can never do so. In this respect Science, Theology, and even > > Spiritualism show little more wisdom than the ostrich does, when > it hides > > its head in the sand at its feet, feeling sure that there can be > thus > > nothing beyond its own point of observation and the limited area > occupied by > > its foolish head. > > > > As the only works now extant upon the subject under consideration > within > > reach of the profane of the Western "civilized" races are the > > above-mentioned Hermetic Books, or rather Hermetic Fragments, we > may > > contrast them in the present case with the teachings of Esoteric > philosophy. > > To quote for this purpose from any other would be useless, since > the public > > knows nothing of the Chaldean works which are translated into > Arabic and > > preserved by some Sufi initiates. Therefore the "Definitions of > Asclepios," > > as lately compiled and glossed by Mrs. A. Kingsford, F.T.S., some > of which > > sayings are in remarkable agreement with the Esoteric Eastern > doctrine, have > > to be resorted to for comparison. Though not a few passages show a > strong > > impression of some later Christian hand, yet on the whole the > > characteristics of the genii* and gods are those of eastern > teachings, while > > concerning other things there are passages which differ widely in > our > > doctrines." ( http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-13.htm ) > > > > > > > > 2. - Taken from Vol. 1, Page 269 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > > "SUMMING UP. > > "The History of Creation and of this world from its beginning up > to the > > present time is composed of seven chapters. The seventh chapter is > not yet > > written." > > (T. Subba Row, Theosophist, 1881.) > > THE first of these Seven chapters has been attempted and is now > finished. > > However incomplete and feeble as an exposition, it is, at any > rate, an > > approximation -- using the word in a mathematical sense -- to that > which is > > the oldest basis for all the subsequent Cosmogonies. The attempt > to render > > in a European tongue the grand panorama of the ever periodically > recurring > > Law -- impressed upon the plastic minds of the first races endowed > with > > Consciousness by those who reflected the same from the Universal > Mind -- is > > daring, for no human language, save the Sanskrit -- which is that > of the > > Gods -- can do so with any degree of adequacy. But the failures in > this work > > must be forgiven for the sake of the motive." ( [[Vol. 1, Page]] > 269 THE > > FIRST CHAPTER OF CREATION.) > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-13.htm (The ULT > version is > > similar on this issue.) > > > > 3. - Taken from Vol. 1, Page 299 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > > "So much from the astronomical and cosmic standpoints viewed and > expressed > > in symbolical language -- which became in our last races > theological and > > dogmatic." > > > > --- > > > > All that said, I think I agree with you, that the Alice A. Bailey > books > > today and through the last few decades have had a great pull on the > > Newcomers minds - > > the newcomers, which have begun their quest for knowledge and > wisdom. Today > > many can read intellectual books and do so. At Blavatskys time of > writing it > > was different. The intellectuals then was of a different > background and was > > not as many as today. The - "pull" is what is important. Because > TS has not > > experienced the same "pull". But the more wise among the Bailey's > sometimes > > later become members at one of the TS groups. > > > > Even so the Brainwashing methodology wasn't related to then and > neither at > > Baileys time, when she was writing her books. The theories of > brainwashing > > and New Age - really first saw the light from 1950'ies and > 1960'ies with > > Flower Power (-- "peace and love" --- smile...) and the acceptance > of the > > science of psychology. > > > > The difference of "believing" what you read and really "knowing by > wisdom" > > what you read are - huge. And many newcomers falls prey to this > obstacle. > > Because they are used to believeing and not knowing. Because of > that the > > Alice A. Bailey writings has had many followers of the - > superficial kind. > > Followers, which are not really interested in wisdom "Atma-Vidya", > but who > > are interested in - New Age, astral energies, social tribalism, or > social > > tea, talk and gossip. > > They truely act like the Fox Mulder poster says "I want to > believe". It is > > so fitting a sentence, and can very well be related to the many > newcomers at > > the Bailey organisations. > > > > They get attracted to various organisations and groups. One day it > is the > > local Bailey group. another day it is the local Hare Krishna, > Gurdjieff or > > Scientology etc. > > They don't really know - how to learn, and at what group they > really are > > able to learn if at any of the mentioned. > > The massmedias influence - today - on the newcomers minds are > imense and > > shouldn't be underestimated by any - theosophist or Bailey-ist. > > The massmedias influence has to be related to when promoting - the > wisdom > > teachings - no matter what book one prefers to throw at the > newcomer as a > > sort of new pet-Bible. > > > > That is why I find, that the Bailey books are not suited to the > present > > activities, which are going on in The Middle East. > > Others says - great ! Bailey is cool - and that it is just the > Shamballa > > force which are doing its job destroying the Middle Eastern > culture - i.e. > > the Hybrid offshoot ! > > It is just justice - karma and what ever - which are happening, > and that a > > any muslim is a terrorist. And if not, he or she will problably be > so > > tomorrow - or else the children will. This is what is really going > on in > > some Bailey circles. Some readers might disagree. But facts are > facts ! > > > > Because of these facts - I have a strong tendency to be carefull > about > > promoting the Bailey books as a pet-Bible to anyone. > > > > I know, that Netemara has a quite different view than I am > painting in the > > above. > > And I respect that as far as non-violence are followed. But there > are limits > > to what I want to promote - year 2003. > > > > The "astral body" scheme appearnly invented by Blavatsky - has its > origins > > from the Perisa-India area of the Khwajagan Sufis (also called the > Master > > Sufis. Kwhajagan = Master). The sufis Naqshbandi Order are their > ancestors. > > These sufis are the followers of the Avatar doctrine of the master > Khidr or > > Kizr - also known as The Green Guide. (This figure are mentioned > in the > > Quran) !!! > > > > > > > > What do you the reader think about all of this ??? > > I have done my best. > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with peace and love... > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From MarieMAJ41@aol.com Mon Dec 01 23:50:38 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 14258 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2003 07:50:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2003 07:50:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2003 07:50:36 -0000 Received: from MarieMAJ41@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.14f.27589ab9 (4222) for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2003 02:50:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <14f.27589ab9.2cfd9e3b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 02:50:19 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Physical Phenomena at a Seance (3 of 3) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5002 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.12.136.162 From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90655958 X-Yahoo-Profile: olgamarie41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/29/2003 1:48:45 PM Central Standard Time, k.hesselink@home.nl writes: Hi Marie, I'm not sure what the object is with which you send us these stories. I'm sure most people here believe in the possibility of such occurunces as described. For those interested in this issue, I've found a few links online. The first two are Blavatsky talking about these things. The last is W.Q. Judge talking about it. http://theosophy.org/tlodocs/hpb/EchoesFromIndia.htm http://theosophy.org/tlobooks/key/KeySection10.htm http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/occult/ot-wqj1.htm Katinka --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MarieMAJ41@a... wrote: Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Katinka, Thank you for taking the time to add to this subject matter. Usually, since I am not a scholar or a writer, I simply send articles I find useful, interesting, or topical. I found these 3 to be all of the above. I decided to send this to the list because of the mention of Crookes, though this was not the only reason. I hope that you have not been offended by my posts. I seek only to participate in this list that I have enjoyed so thoroughly since finding it recently. Anyway, to recap, I send articles but usually do not comment on them. I prefer to let the reader decide what to think or what to read. Even Blavatsky would have approved of a person researching a topic, and not just accepting everything just because it was given by herself [Blavatsky] or even the Masters. Marie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Tue Dec 02 02:41:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9386 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2003 10:41:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2003 10:41:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.102) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2003 10:41:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.254] by n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2003 10:41:10 -0000 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:41:09 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: What about the VISIT made to the Golden Temple Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1383 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.102 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 62.234.183.216 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker Netemara, What point do you mean.? I think we must not look to what Blavatsky did in their time, but what we can learn in the time now and therefore we need some lessons of it and after that deeply understanding we can touch the Alice Bailey teachings. DoYou know that her work is from a disciple (DjwahlKuhl)who is working in Tibet and well for the same masters from theosofy.So her work was leading by the them.I know their names, but that is not important for the moment, it is better to know their work for all human beiings to lead them to the pure, honest human. greetings Christina. -- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "netemara888" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "christinaleestemaker" > wrote: > > To Netamara, used the 888 in the wrong way! > > > > You are realy missing the way. > > If the theosofist becomes to the buddhish areas then they are > > completely on the intuitive level. > > > > The Sikhs are not they the murderers of Ghandi, the very old > Indian > > wise man and if such a noble man must die by murdering the group > have > > had done that is the black side of life, also that is the way you > > choose then. > > > > Be attended, Christina > > > > You lost me Christina, I am not understanding your point here. > > Namaste > > Netemara > > > > > > > > > Netemara From christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com Tue Dec 02 02:50:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: christinaleestemaker@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75682 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2003 10:50:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2003 10:50:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2003 10:50:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.147] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2003 10:49:52 -0000 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:49:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: What about the VISIT made to the Golden Temple Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001301c3b86a$ec81a770$cf4fa450@khidr> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 17380 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.86 From: "christinaleestemaker" X-Originating-IP: 62.234.183.216 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162317756 X-Yahoo-Profile: christinaleestemaker It is nice you wrote Annie Beasnt, as you should know it is BESANT.=20 Bye Christina -- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hallo Netemara and all of you, >=20 > My views are: >=20 > Allright then Netemara, let us suppose that you are that wise as=20 your below > email wants the readers to believe. >=20 > Then please answer me: > How do you learn how to learn ? >=20 > If you can't answer this throughly - you will never learn =A8 > me and others anything. >=20 > To Netemara: > Do you give out a teaching, which is not adapted towards > time, place and people ? > Or do you give out a teaching, which further - culturally -=20 conditions the > minds of the Seekers after Wisdom and Truth ? > Do your versions of the Wisdom teachings give > the aspirant a world view ? > --- A world view was what Blavatsky recommended nothing less ! --- >=20 > As long as the Middle East with its rich symbolical and esoterical=20 teachings > are being trampled on in the name of western prejudice about this=20 culture - > by some pet-Bible books of a nature which is swarmed by Christian > vocabulary, (books written by Alice A. Bailey and a supposed 5th=20 initiate), > how can anyone justify such teachings as being valid theosophy and=20 giving > the Seekers > after Wisdom and Truth a WORLD VIEW ??? > Please answer Netemara. What are your view on this ??? >=20 > To the readers: > Try digesting the book "The People of the Secret" by Ernest Scott. > This is Middle Eastern theosophy - and certainly not the same as=20 what > Netemara is > offering you as far as I am concerned. >=20 > To answer a request from another email: > The spiritual function of the TS is according to Bailey - that > further revelation will happen. The secret doctrine is no Bible. > Bailey also said that The Secret Doctrine came from a higher source=20 than the > books she wrote togehter with the one she calls D.K. > At Baileys time of writing she saw her (and D.K.'s books) as the tip > of the iceberg to the new coming generations in the west (and most=20 certainly > not > in the Middle East). She wanted her books mixed with Blavatskys=20 writings to > be > THE teaching of theosophy - and that the teachings of CWL and Annie=20 Beasnt > should be thrown somwhere in the trashcan. > SHE recognized however, that they may crystalllize - and that they=20 then > should be > adtaped or changed. >=20 > (The Unfinished Autobiography). >=20 > --- And Netemara this were you fail as far as your emailing goes.=20 You > do not regocnize that Bailey's teachings already are=20 crystallizing. --- >=20 > Please tell me if you disagree Netemara - and where the=20 disagreement are. >=20 >=20 > from > M. Sufilight with peace and love... >=20 >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: "netemara888" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 12:17 AM > Subject: Theos-World Re: What about the VISIT made to the Golden=20 Temple >=20 >=20 > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" > theosophy@a...> wrote: > > > Hallo Netemara and all of you, > > > > > > > Hi Morten, > > > > You can challenge me or my views all you want. But my views and > > research are really a cover for what I have uncovered through > > spiritual and meditation revelations. These will be and have been > > given out in bits and pieces on my website. Now, the truth about > > this is buried in there somewhere. It is hidden in part because I > > hid it. But I have the okay to begin giving out this in detail and > > in no uncertain terms. > > > > My work is cyclical and contains the truth based on lifetimes and > > thousands of years of destiny and not just the so-called now. We > > will never agree until and unless you come up to where I am and I > > will show you on the inside what the truth is about much of this-- or > > as much of it as you can stand. The bottom line is the connection > > that we all have is more than we can bear. > > > > Namaste > > > > Netemara > > > > > > > > > > My views are just views: > > > > > > You have a different view than I have on the subject we email > > about. > > > To disagree is what happens. We are learning. > > > I know that you mean well and I think you know that I do so too. > > > I have read the Alice A. Bailey books more than one time and=20 have > > been a > > > former member of a very pro-Bailey organisation. > > > > > > Because of that - I offer the following method, which were used=20 in > > the olden > > > days - although not via email. > > > Let us then exchange some emails (10-20 if needed) on the=20 issue - > > and see if > > > any of us can convince the other > > > about what is the truth of the matter. I could be very fruitfull > > to all at > > > this place. > > > Agreed ? Do you accept the offer ? > > > > > > I think the subject is important and deserves attention. > > Especially because > > > of the degree of involvement Lucis Trust > > > and other so-called branched Bailey groups has with the United > > Nations. > > > > > > > > > Let me now answer your email. > > > > > > Netemara wrote: > > > "It is the Bailey trust which holds a great deal of influence=20 over > > > the U.N. whether you realize this or not I don't know." > > > > > > My answer: > > > Well, let us just suppose that this is true. > > > Then it is no wonder why they (U.N.) are so silent as they are > > about the > > > killing of a lot of muslims > > > these days. Without anyone saying anything or making any real > > protest I find > > > it all very problematic. > > > > > > As an answer to the quoted Bailey view on the stated fact that > > Mohammedanism > > > was a hybrid offshoot > > > and no real religion when compared with Christianity - > > > Netemara wrote : > > > - "Yes, that's true based on my research about its foundation." > > > > > > My answer: > > > I disagree. it is based on YOUR own research. > > > But others certainly have a quite different opintion than you=20 and > > with good > > > reason. > > > If they have, have you then ever wondered why ? > > > Do you truely and honestly expect a muslim audience to fall for > > that opinion > > > of yours ? > > > Do you at all have a clue to why such a view is or could be=20 false > > and why > > > Bailey wrote the words she did ? > > > > > > Just because Blavatsky did'nt touch much upon that religion and > > culture for > > > obvious reasons - Bailey > > > saw it fitting to transform it into a "hybrid offshoot". I find > > this > > > distastefull. > > > And Baileys writings are one of the reasons why Blavatsky- related > > Theosophy > > > is where it is today. > > > Bailey has had success in damaging the TRUE theosophical cause > > (the wisdom > > > tradition) by for instance remarks like the one > > > we talk about here. But true, NO spiritual evolution happens > > without > > > resistence and opposition on this level of the seven scheme-a-s. > > > As it is written in the below Blavatsky didn't write much on the > > Middle > > > Eastern teachings because not many > > > scriptures were transleated at her time of writing. Even Mrs. > > Kingsford's > > > attempt on "Asclepios" has faults, > > > which Blavatsky also points out. > > > > > > It is a wellknown and accepted fact, that even Blavatsky's=20 version > > of The > > > Secret Doctrine was written with an western audience in mind. > > > (I am not alone in that view. Many later theosophists are=20 agreeing > > to that.) > > > And still - you Netemara appearntly holds the view, that the=20 Alice > > A. Bailey > > > writings are suited to a Middle Eastern audience ! > > > Is that really honestly your view ? > > > I find such a view totally wrong. > > > > > > I only stated my views in my previous email. What I know about=20 the > > future is > > > a view - not a claim. > > > But if you think that about one billion Muslims will follow the > > teachings of > > > the "hybrid offshoot" - then I think you are way too far out. > > > Of course if you killed them, and then invaded the countries you > > might reach > > > success, but that is a very bad idea. > > > > > > > > > If you - really - want to learn, and are not too filled with > > emotion, then > > > read the below. > > > > > > We have from the Secret Doctrine the following - which tells=20 their > > tales on > > > the use of the English language and esoteric teachings: > > > > > > 1. The following has to do with Hermes - Pymander - Taken from > > Vol. 1, Page > > > 288 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > > > > > > "This is quite consistent with the Vedantic teaching. The=20 leading > > thought is > > > Occult; and many are the passages in the Hermetic Fragments that > > belong > > > bodily to the Secret Doctrine. > > > The latter teaches that the whole universe is ruled by=20 intelligent > > and > > > semi-intelligent Forces and Powers, as stated from the very > > beginning. > > > Christian Theology admits and even enforces belief in such, but > > makes an > > > arbitrary division and refers to them as "Angels" and "Devils." > > Science > > > denies the existence of such, and ridicules the very idea. > > Spiritualists > > > believe in the Spirits of the Dead, and, outside these, deny > > entirely any > > > other kind or class of invisible beings. The Occultists and > > Kabalists are > > > thus the only rational expounders of the ancient traditions,=20 which > > have now > > > culminated in dogmatic faith on the one hand, and dogmatic=20 denials > > on the > > > other. For, both belief and unbelief embrace but one small=20 corner > > each of > > > the infinite horizons of spiritual and physical manifestations; > > and thus > > > both are right from > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > --------- > > > ---- > > > > > > [[Vol. 1, Page]] 288 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. > > > their respective standpoints, and both are wrong in believing=20 that > > they can > > > circumscribe the whole within their own special and narrow > > barriers; for --=20 > > > they can never do so. In this respect Science, Theology, and=20 even > > > Spiritualism show little more wisdom than the ostrich does, when > > it hides > > > its head in the sand at its feet, feeling sure that there can be > > thus > > > nothing beyond its own point of observation and the limited area > > occupied by > > > its foolish head. > > > > > > As the only works now extant upon the subject under=20 consideration > > within > > > reach of the profane of the Western "civilized" races are the > > > above-mentioned Hermetic Books, or rather Hermetic Fragments, we > > may > > > contrast them in the present case with the teachings of Esoteric > > philosophy. > > > To quote for this purpose from any other would be useless, since > > the public > > > knows nothing of the Chaldean works which are translated into > > Arabic and > > > preserved by some Sufi initiates. Therefore the "Definitions of > > Asclepios," > > > as lately compiled and glossed by Mrs. A. Kingsford, F.T.S.,=20 some > > of which > > > sayings are in remarkable agreement with the Esoteric Eastern > > doctrine, have > > > to be resorted to for comparison. Though not a few passages=20 show a > > strong > > > impression of some later Christian hand, yet on the whole the > > > characteristics of the genii* and gods are those of eastern > > teachings, while > > > concerning other things there are passages which differ widely=20 in > > our > > > doctrines." ( http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1- 13.htm ) > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. - Taken from Vol. 1, Page 269 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > > > "SUMMING UP. > > > "The History of Creation and of this world from its beginning=20 up > > to the > > > present time is composed of seven chapters. The seventh chapter=20 is > > not yet > > > written." > > > (T. Subba Row, Theosophist, 1881.) > > > THE first of these Seven chapters has been attempted and is now > > finished. > > > However incomplete and feeble as an exposition, it is, at any > > rate, an > > > approximation -- using the word in a mathematical sense -- to=20 that > > which is > > > the oldest basis for all the subsequent Cosmogonies. The attempt > > to render > > > in a European tongue the grand panorama of the ever periodically > > recurring > > > Law -- impressed upon the plastic minds of the first races=20 endowed > > with > > > Consciousness by those who reflected the same from the Universal > > Mind -- is > > > daring, for no human language, save the Sanskrit -- which is=20 that > > of the > > > Gods -- can do so with any degree of adequacy. But the failures=20 in > > this work > > > must be forgiven for the sake of the motive." ( [[Vol. 1, Page]] > > 269 THE > > > FIRST CHAPTER OF CREATION.) > > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-13.htm (The ULT > > version is > > > similar on this issue.) > > > > > > 3. - Taken from Vol. 1, Page 299 THE SECRET DOCTRINE.: > > > "So much from the astronomical and cosmic standpoints viewed and > > expressed > > > in symbolical language -- which became in our last races > > theological and > > > dogmatic." > > > > > > --- > > > > > > All that said, I think I agree with you, that the Alice A.=20 Bailey > > books > > > today and through the last few decades have had a great pull on=20 the > > > Newcomers minds - > > > the newcomers, which have begun their quest for knowledge and > > wisdom. Today > > > many can read intellectual books and do so. At Blavatskys time=20 of > > writing it > > > was different. The intellectuals then was of a different > > background and was > > > not as many as today. The - "pull" is what is important. Because > > TS has not > > > experienced the same "pull". But the more wise among the=20 Bailey's > > sometimes > > > later become members at one of the TS groups. > > > > > > Even so the Brainwashing methodology wasn't related to then and > > neither at > > > Baileys time, when she was writing her books. The theories of > > brainwashing > > > and New Age - really first saw the light from 1950'ies and > > 1960'ies with > > > Flower Power (-- "peace and love" --- smile...) and the=20 acceptance > > of the > > > science of psychology. > > > > > > The difference of "believing" what you read and really "knowing=20 by > > wisdom" > > > what you read are - huge. And many newcomers falls prey to this > > obstacle. > > > Because they are used to believeing and not knowing. Because of > > that the > > > Alice A. Bailey writings has had many followers of the - > > superficial kind. > > > Followers, which are not really interested in wisdom "Atma- Vidya", > > but who > > > are interested in - New Age, astral energies, social tribalism,=20 or > > social > > > tea, talk and gossip. > > > They truely act like the Fox Mulder poster says "I want to > > believe". It is > > > so fitting a sentence, and can very well be related to the many > > newcomers at > > > the Bailey organisations. > > > > > > They get attracted to various organisations and groups. One day=20 it > > is the > > > local Bailey group. another day it is the local Hare Krishna, > > Gurdjieff or > > > Scientology etc. > > > They don't really know - how to learn, and at what group they > > really are > > > able to learn if at any of the mentioned. > > > The massmedias influence - today - on the newcomers minds are > > imense and > > > shouldn't be underestimated by any - theosophist or Bailey-ist. > > > The massmedias influence has to be related to when promoting -=20 the > > wisdom > > > teachings - no matter what book one prefers to throw at the > > newcomer as a > > > sort of new pet-Bible. > > > > > > That is why I find, that the Bailey books are not suited to the > > present > > > activities, which are going on in The Middle East. > > > Others says - great ! Bailey is cool - and that it is just the > > Shamballa > > > force which are doing its job destroying the Middle Eastern > > culture - i.e. > > > the Hybrid offshoot ! > > > It is just justice - karma and what ever - which are happening, > > and that a > > > any muslim is a terrorist. And if not, he or she will problably=20 be > > so > > > tomorrow - or else the children will. This is what is really=20 going > > on in > > > some Bailey circles. Some readers might disagree. But facts are > > facts ! > > > > > > Because of these facts - I have a strong tendency to be carefull > > about > > > promoting the Bailey books as a pet-Bible to anyone. > > > > > > I know, that Netemara has a quite different view than I am > > painting in the > > > above. > > > And I respect that as far as non-violence are followed. But=20 there > > are limits > > > to what I want to promote - year 2003. > > > > > > The "astral body" scheme appearnly invented by Blavatsky - has=20 its > > origins > > > from the Perisa-India area of the Khwajagan Sufis (also called=20 the > > Master > > > Sufis. Kwhajagan =3D Master). The sufis Naqshbandi Order are their > > ancestors. > > > These sufis are the followers of the Avatar doctrine of the=20 master > > Khidr or > > > Kizr - also known as The Green Guide. (This figure are mentioned > > in the > > > Quran) !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you the reader think about all of this ??? > > > I have done my best. > > > > > > from > > > M. Sufilight with peace and love... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Dec 02 09:06:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31183 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2003 17:06:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2003 17:06:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40910.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.207) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2003 17:06:46 -0000 Message-ID: <20031202170644.76188.qmail@web40910.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40910.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Dec 2003 09:06:44 PST Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:06:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Our Teacher, H.P.B." To: ".DanielHCaldwell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.7