From PhilotesII@aol.com Sat Nov 01 15:48:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: PhilotesII@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2608 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2003 23:48:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2003 23:48:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2003 23:48:26 -0000 Received: from PhilotesII@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.b2.2459b09b (3988) for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:48:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:48:19 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 From: PhilotesII@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=150072488 X-Yahoo-Profile: philotesii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/10/2003 12:12:49 GMT Standard Time, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/at-az.htm Thank you for the link. I have been searching for this document a long time. I knew it must exist somewhere and until your link I just could not find it. This is extremely helpful to me. Philotes II [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 01 16:44:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34440 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 00:44:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 00:44:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 00:44:38 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E911347FEEF for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 01:44:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000d01c3a0da$7b448a70$524ea450@khidr> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 01:44:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo all of you, My views are: 1. The nearest exponent of the Esoteric philosophy "is the Vedanta as expounded by the Advaita Vedantists," (Secret Doctrine, I, p. 55). (Bhagavad-Gita, W. Q. Judge, p. 108) http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/ve-vz.htm Vedanta is not for everyone to learn. 2.Quoting The Secret Doctrine: Sri Sankaracharya, the greatest Initiate living in the historical ages, wrote many a Bhashya on the Upanishads. But his original treatises, as there are reasons to suppose, have not yet fallen into the hands of the Philistines, for they are too jealously preserved in his maths (monasteries, mathams). And there are still weightier reasons to believe that the priceless Bhashyas (Commentaries) on the esoteric doctrine of the Brahmins, by their greatest expounder, will remain for ages yet a dead letter to most of the Hindus, except the Smartava Brahmins. This sect, founded by Sankaracharya, (which is still very powerful in Southern India) is now almost the only one to produce students who have preserved sufficient knowledge to comprehend the [[Footnote(s) -------------------------------------------------]] * Also called "the Sons of Wisdom," and of the "Fire-Mist" and the "Brothers of the Sun" in the Chinese records. Si-dzang (Tibet) is mentioned in the MSS. of the sacred library of the province of Fo-Kien, as the great seat of Occult learning from time immemorial, ages before Buddha. The Emperor Yu, the "great" (2,207 years B.C.), a pious mystic and great adept, is said to have obtained his knowledge from the "great teachers of the Snowy Range" in Si-dzang. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [[Vol. 1, Page]] 272 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. dead letter of the Bhashyas. The reason of this is that they alone, I am informed, have occasionally real Initiates at their head in their mathams, as for instance, in the "Sringa-giri," in the Western Ghats of Mysore. On the other hand, there is no sect in that desperately exclusive caste of the Brahmins, more exclusive than is the Smartava; and the reticence of its followers to say what they may know of the Occult sciences and the esoteric doctrine, is only equalled by their pride and learning. The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky -- Vol. 1, page 271-2 OCCULTISM IN THE UPANISHADS. 3. Quoting The Secret Doctrine: "The Logos, or both the unmanifested and the manifested WORD, is called by the Hindus, Iswara, "the Lord," though the Occultists give it another name. Iswara, say the Vedantins, is the highest consciousness in nature. "This highest consciousness," answer the Occultists, "is only a synthetic unit in the world of the manifested Logos -- or on the plane of illusion; for it is the sum total of Dhyan-Chohanic consciousnesses." "Oh, wise man, remove the conception that not-Spirit is Spirit," says Sankaracharya. Atma is not-Spirit in its final Parabrahmic state, Iswara or Logos is Spirit; or, as Occultism explains, it is a compound unity of manifested living Spirits, the parent-source and nursery of all the mundane and terrestrial monads, plus their divine reflection, which emanate from, and return into, the Logos, each in the culmination of its time. There are seven chief groups of such Dhyan Chohans, which groups will be found and recognised in every religion, for they are the primeval SEVEN Rays. Humanity, occultism teaches us, is divided into seven distinct groups and their sub-divisions, mental, spiritual, and physical.* The monad, then, viewed as ONE, is above the seventh principle (in Kosmos and man), and as a triad, it is the direct radiant progeny of the said compound UNIT, not the breath (and special creation out of nihil) of "God," as that unit is called; for such an idea is quite unphilosophical, and degrades Deity, dragging it down to a finite, attributive condition. As well expressed by the translator of the "Crest-Jewel of Wisdom" -- though Iswara is "God" "unchanged in the profoundest depths of pralayas and in the intensest activity of the manvantaras" . . ., still "beyond (him) is [[Footnote(s)]] ------------------------------------------------- * Hence the seven chief planets, the spheres of the indwelling seven spirits, under each of which is born one of the human groups which is guided and influenced thereby. There are only seven planets (specially connected with earth), and twelve houses, but the possible combinations of their aspects are countless. As each planet can stand to each of the others in twelve different aspects, their combinations must, therefore, be almost infinite; as infinite, in fact, as the spiritual, psychic, mental, and physical capacities in the numberless varieties of the genus homo, each of which varieties is born under one of the seven planets and one of the said countless planetary combinations. See Theosophist, for August, 1886." The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky -- Vol. 1, page 573 THE CREST-JEWEL OF WISDOM. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-3-11.htm Just try and compare this with later theosophy - and smell the - emotional-oriented - difference ! Did this help ? from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 12:48 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" > In a message dated 30/10/2003 12:12:49 GMT Standard Time, > global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: > > > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/at-az.htm > > Thank you for the link. I have been searching for this document a long time. > I knew it must exist somewhere and until your link I just could not find it. > > This is extremely helpful to me. > > Philotes II > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From samblo@cs.com Sat Nov 01 17:50:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16650 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 01:50:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 01:50:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 01:50:50 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.28.3f93a9ca (17228) for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:50:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <28.3f93a9ca.2cd5bcf1@cs.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:50:41 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 8000 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Philotes, Thanks, happiness is assisting others, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 02 06:41:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21733 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 14:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 14:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 14:41:22 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-15.look.ca ([216.154.45.110] helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGJPt-0000Hs-FH for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 14:41:21 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA516C1.4010205@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:37:53 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re "happiness is helping others" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter3.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn John wrote: <> I seem to recall at some point coming across words to the effect that one ought to love one's neighbour and hate one's enemy. I'm trying to figure out if that was attributed to Jesus by somebody. I have an excellent memory, but all too often it seems to be kind of short on particulars, for some reason, so for all I know, maybe Jesus never said anything like that. Aside from whatever contextual, broader meaning that comment from John might be seen to have, or "does have" or "might have" from John's point of view ... Anyway, that comment brought to mind that "love/hate" topic. Maybe somebody can correct me about it. At any rate, if one tends to go with "happiness is assisting others," (in general?), then one might wonder (as in my case) whether one ought to assist one's "friends" (however defined?) as well as one's "enemies" (however defined?)---ie, "assist" (possibly?) without (apparently?) all that much defining of "others" or "happiness" (apparently?) or ... So, for example, if one considers the case of RC Churchman Eugenio Pacelli and his associations with the Nazis during WW2, one might wonder about the nature of the "help" and "happiness" with respect to "others," that might be "seen to apply in his case" ... (not that I'm suggesting that John's "help," "happiness" and "others" to me seem somehow comparable to Pacelli's case in some way). I'm not suggesting anything much, just wonder about a few things. ^:-/ ... Mauri From bill_meredith@earthlink.net Sun Nov 02 09:36:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bill_meredith@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27948 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 17:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 17:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.188) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 17:36:49 -0000 Received: from 0-2pool111-142.nas1.albany1.ga.us.da.qwest.net ([65.142.111.142] helo=skate0w5w4rmsg) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGM9f-00062j-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:36:48 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c3a167$b4b637d0$8e6f8e41@skate0w5w4rmsg> To: References: <3FA516C1.4010205@idirect.ca> Subject: Re: Theos-World re "happiness is helping others" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:35:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-ELNK-Trace: aeda9581e82e22886a67a78112ff260e74bf435c0eb9d478446ad644c595755d71db1fffdb6899cab88f7b77eb1b818f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c From: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=131669976 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith Mauri, often I enjoy your meanderings. Sometimes I don't read them all the way through, but I still enjoy them none the less. While it is certainly possible to observe that having an attitude that "happiness is helping others" is nothing but a disguise for a self-centered conviction that one's personal happiness is somehow important in the great scheme of things, such an observation would not necessarily be true just because one uttered it aloud (or in print). In my experience, I have come to the conclusion that "wondering" in silence often brings me more "happiness" than public speculation. It seems to be different for you. That is good. Our differences may ultimately unite us. regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mauri" To: Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 9:37 AM Subject: Theos-World re "happiness is helping others" > John wrote: < assisting others, John>> > > I seem to recall at some point coming across > words to the effect that one ought to love > one's neighbour and hate one's enemy. I'm > trying to figure out if that was attributed > to Jesus by somebody. I have an excellent > memory, but all too often it seems to be kind > of short on particulars, for some reason, so > for all I know, maybe Jesus never said > anything like that. Aside from whatever > contextual, broader meaning that comment from > John might be seen to have, or "does have" or > "might have" from John's point of view ... > Anyway, that comment brought to mind that > "love/hate" topic. Maybe somebody can > correct me about it. At any rate, if one > tends to go with "happiness is assisting > others," (in general?), then one might wonder > (as in my case) whether one ought to assist > one's "friends" (however defined?) as well as > one's "enemies" (however defined?)---ie, > "assist" (possibly?) without (apparently?) > all that much defining of "others" or > "happiness" (apparently?) or ... So, for > example, if one considers the case of RC > Churchman Eugenio Pacelli and his > associations with the Nazis during WW2, one > might wonder about the nature of the "help" > and "happiness" with respect to "others," > that might be "seen to apply in his case" ... > (not that I'm suggesting that John's "help," > "happiness" and "others" to me seem somehow > comparable to Pacelli's case in some way). > I'm not suggesting anything much, just wonder > about a few things. > > ^:-/ ... > Mauri > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 02 13:54:07 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18076 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 21:54:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 21:54:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 21:54:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2003 21:54:05 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 21:54:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000d01c3a0da$7b448a70$524ea450@khidr> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 685 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.81.202 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hallo all of you, > > > > My views are: > > 1. > The nearest exponent of the Esoteric philosophy "is the Vedanta as expounded > by the Advaita Vedantists," (Secret Doctrine, I, p. 55). (Bhagavad- Gita, W. > Q. Judge, p. 108) > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/ve-vz.htm That is an interesting comment in view of the fact that Blavartsky's system was objective dealism whereas Sankara's system wa ssubjective idealism. We have in other words a radical difference of opinion at the very core of the two systems. Blavatsky's theories are much closer to Kapila than to Sankara. From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Nov 02 13:55:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 3744 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 21:55:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 21:55:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 21:55:40 -0000 Received: from pool1168.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.34.148] helo=DALLAS) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGQBs-0000QM-00; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:55:20 -0800 To: Subject: Mediation Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:55:01 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c3a18b$fac75780$9422f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nov 2 2003 Re: Meditation - some thoughts about it Dear Friends: Re: Meditation -- Seeking for Truth -- Fantasy, Imagination -- Dear Friends: In several recent exchanges the question of mediation, attention, concentration, mind-control, argument, discussion, testimony, inference, etc.. have been used. The ancient sage Patanjali seems to offer us one of the best systems to consider and deal with these. One ought to procure Mr. Judge's rendition, or consult the "on line" version, and really try to figure out the meaning of the verses and recommendations made therein. [ www.Blavatsky.net ] Allow me to outline this as simply as I can: THEOSOPHY gives the ancient psychological divisions of man's consciousness as viewed in the ancient systems of Yoga (Union with the Divine) found as a record in the annals of Hindu psychology that extends back to Vedic times, and beyond that in "pre-Vedic bodhism" - lost in the night of time. This knowledge has always existed but is difficult for the average man to find, because he is attached to his personality and its many desires and fancies. He has to become passionless at least some times, in order to discover it. It is NOT outside him but within. "The Teacher can but point the way. The means to reach the Goal will vary with the pilgrims." {Voice of the Silence) The pupil or aspirant has to do the work, it cannot be bought, nor can a "Guru" do it for him. In The KEY TO THEOSOPHY these divisions of our "Mind" are explained in detail by HPB, and we ought to study those. That is perhaps the opening lesson. It is a work to discover ourselves. The next is to grasp the difference between the "passion wrapped Mind" ( Kama-Manas, and the WISE-MIND or Buddhi-Manas). To do this, one has to adopt the view that each human being (every one of us) is an Eternal Pilgrim. We cannot be "killed," although our bodies die or perish. Undying, we all reincarnate from cycle to cycle, and we remain in touch with our "near and dear." It is the one eternal process that all religions are based on, but which all systems of priestcraft have connived in hiding the meaning. We all, using body after body through reincarnation, are on our way to the SUPREME GOAL - UNIVERSAL WISDOM. This effort can be made quicker and the time shortened. The basis for our Individual consciousness is the spiritual MONAD ( Atma-Buddhi). This (the REAL "I") NEVER DIES. Patanjali calls "Yoga" CONCENTRATION; or, hindering the modifications of the mind which he calls the "thinking principle." He deals here with our usual "Lower Mind." Which is awake and serving us as a tool for thinking when we are "awake." The "modifications" are caused by desires, emotions, and passions. These enslave the mind if we let them. Lower-Mind is defined by THEOSOPHY as "Kama-Manas," or the mind (power to think) wrapped up in desires, passions and emotions. These make our views selfish, and we tend to isolate ourselves. We cease practicing universal brotherhood. We are all aware of this linkage (between the personal selfish mind, and the impersonal just and cooperative mind) , when we think about it detached from passions and desires we begin to see and sense the difference in orientation. Patanjali says that this "hindering" is to be done by the REAL MAN by using "exercise" and "dispassion." [The REAL MAN is superior to the "mind" and uses and directs it. The passions are detached from the "power to think." ] He speaks of the mind as dual: Lower (or embodied and selfish), and Higher (or spiritual, wise and ethical). [ H P B in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY explains this in detail.] He uses a five-fold division of these "modifications:" Correct Cognition Misconception Fancy Sleep Memory Proceeding he says: "EXERCISE" is the unrelaxed effort to keep the mind fixed on a single subject. To be able to do this takes time, effort and training. [The natural tendency of the mind is to wander. In the BHAGAVAD GITA, Krishna, the Guru who is teaching Arjuna, the pupil, says that the man who desires to meditate, should control the wandering mind: "collect it, bring it back, and place it upon the Spirit." ] "DISPASSION" is overcoming all of one's desires.-- It extends to an indifference exercised because one knows the nature of one's SOUL (Manas-mind) as distinguished from other things. "DISTINCT COGNITION" is a type of meditation in which 4 elements are known and used appropriately: 1. "Argument" -- the comparing of a thing with others, similarities and disparities. 2. "Deliberation" -- considers the origin of things and one's self, what is the field of action, what is the nature of the more subtle senses, what is Manas, and what is the cause of the dual Mind. These have to be understood before proceeding further. 3. "Beatitude" -- is the deliberate use of the Discriminative WISE mind ( Buddhi). Because Buddhi is immortal, it reviews the results of past experience over an immense period, and its wisdom consists in its past observation of the action of Karma as regards, not only itself, but of all other beings. It may therefore be referred to as the ETHICAL MIND -- which pre-views the effect of free-willed choices. It has the power to consider abstractions and metaphysics. In mankind it answers to the concepts we all have of the "Intuition," and to the "Voice of Conscience." 4. "Egoism" -- Is said to be the height of meditation, whereby no other subject is considered but the ONE INNER SELF -- which is to be seen as EQUALLY present in the "heart" of all creatures, without any exceptions. This attained, the power to revert to this consideration and to banish other thoughts from the field of the mind is possible. [Patanjali adds: that Faith (in ones' immortality), Power (to see and do all things), Intentness (or concentration upon a single subject), and discernment (or a discriminative knowledge of that which is to be learned and known) are precedent requirements.] This does not however include the CONSCIOUSNESS of the ABSOLUTE. "ABSTRACT MEDITATION" is promoted by devotion to the SUPREME SPIRIT -- which can be considered in its manifested form as "ISHWARA" -- the HIGHER SELF -- the "spiritual person." This is the "Krishna," or the "Christos," within each human being, as well as latent in every form in nature and the universe. The term "Ishwara" is used to denote that omniscience which is universally present as a "germ" in all beings and in each human. It is the omnipresence of Spirit. In Man it is his HIGHER SELF, and this Higher Self is the Divine tutor, the PRECEPTOR within. The unity of all HIGHER SELVES is symbolized by the "Central Spiritual SUN." We will find that Sri Krishna in The BHAGAVAD GITA teaches this to Arjuna under all circumstances. He says: "Do that which is DUTY, which is always just and fair, without considering (or anticipating) the results." On the negative side, Patanjali enumerates the obstacles that are encountered by the devotee who seeks to make meditation his friend and assistant. These are: Sickness Languor (inertia) Doubt Carelessness Laziness Addiction of objects of sense Erroneous Perception Failure to attain any stage of Abstraction Instability (wavering uncertainty) To prevent these, a single TRUTH needs to be continually dwelt on: the ONE SPIRIT is present universally and is at the heart of all beings. This is Universal Brotherhood. It is extended to all beings, as also, to all humans. We are in this UNIVERSE a totally living Whole. Each part is important and fulfills a necessary function. We all progress together. TO PURIFY ONE'S MIND, HE RECOMMENDS ADOPTING BENEVOLENCE, COMPASSION, GENTLENESS, A GIVING UP OF ANY TENDENCY OR DESIRE FOR PERSONAL HAPPINESS OR PERSONAL BLISS, DISPASSION, TO AVOID PERSONAL GRIEF, TO ADOPT ALL VIRTUES, AND TO SHUN EVERY VICE AS THOUGH IT WERE A DEADLY POISON. When the disciples' mind becomes steady and controlled it may extend from the "Atomic" to the "Infinite." (from the minute to the infinite.) Any subject (or object) considered, then reveals itself in full. The subtle nature of any selected object is seen to merge into "primordial matter" (or Mulaprakriti -- root-matter, also denominated MAHA-BUDDHI -- universal wisdom, REALITY and FACT). This union with the divine does not obliterate the consciousness that is ours. A drop of ocean water has all the qualities of the OCEAN. It is made up of billions of atoms. When dropped back into the sea, it reunites with all other drops and atoms and rebecomes balanced with those; but IT NEVER LOOSES ITS OWN IDENTITY. All Mahatmas, Arhats, Rishis, Yogis, Adepts, etc. are like the "drops" that have become WISE through their own efforts. But they never loose their own IDENTITY; and, like Sri Krishna, they continue to work in the world, and with Humanity. When WISDOM is reached there is spiritual clarity, and the "Third Eye" of SPIRITUAL discernment activates. In such a case "Knowledge" is freed of any error due to material limitations, or the general karmic debts of humanity. This kind of knowledge differs from that which is either "argumentative" of "non-argumentative," it is not due to either testimony or to inference. It is "direct perception." The mind is enabled "to look directly upon ideas." Once the Real Man attains this condition the train of "self-reproductive thought" may be stopped. In such a case it is said that meditation becomes "without a seed." -- because the material base disappears, and the TRUTH is apparent. One of the propositions made here is to assume that at THE BASE OF MEDITATION THE MOTIVE IS PURE -- that the search is for TRUTH alone. Should however, any bias, desire, or preconceived result, be allowed to color the meditative process, the results, though partial, will be distorted and colored by that basic bias. This touchstone is to be applied universality in space, impersonality in motive, and punctuality in time. I hope this may prove to be of use. Best wishes, Dallas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 02 14:06:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40582 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 22:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 22:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 22:06:02 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-05-26.look.ca ([216.154.45.217] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGQMA-0008Rl-8V for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:05:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA57F02.9070709@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:02:42 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re to Bill Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter1.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Bill wrote: <> Me too about yours likewise, Bill. In keeping with my attempts to turn over some kind of new leaf, or "new enough" leaf, I think I'll resist the tempation to meander on some more (for a switch!) about those two sentences from you. (Pretty soon, if I keep this up ... Well, at least I'm optimistic, eh, sort of ... ^:-). << While it is certainly possible to observe that having an attitude that "happiness is helping others" is nothing but a disguise for a self-centered conviction that one's personal happiness is somehow important in the great scheme of things, such an observation would not necessarily be true just because one uttered it aloud (or in print).>> Seems like a relevant enough point, there, Bill (!), which I think I might've had in mind (if rather speculatively/meanderingly, possibly) while meanderizing my speculations for my last post. Maybe I should've added another qualifier last time around about those kinds of concerns. On the other hand, as you might know, seeing as it has been kindly suggested that I have a tendency to use "excessive" qualifiers, as is (among other things) ... That is, I'll try not to meanderize and qualify about that kind of thing "too much." (Sorry, I seem to have trouble not using those qualifying quotes every so often. Maybe you know of a good shrink, Bill ...) ^:-/ <> Privately (and even "pulically," sort of, I guess, seeing as I might be seen as trying to participate in a somewhat public discussion here ...) I wonder, meanderize, speculate (even "think," apparently, strangely enough ...) about the topic of (among other things) where one might tend to draw some kind of defining line between one's "private" and "public" wonderings, meanderings, scientizings, speculations, thought processes and whatever else during the "more formative stages" of one's offerings for these lists (ie, not that I'm saying to you, Bill, that you were necessarily referring to "public/private" in some kind of "more specific" list-related context, apparently, possibly; although ... ^:-/ ... )... I guess we all tend to have our own sense of what should and shouldn't be discussed on these lists and elsewhere, whether we call that sense "private" or "public" "more specifically" in whatever sense. ^:-/ ... Mauri From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 02 14:19:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49316 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 22:19:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 22:19:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 22:19:30 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-18.look.ca ([216.154.45.113] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGQZF-0003ne-4Y for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:19:29 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA5822D.9020607@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:16:13 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re "objective and subjective idealism" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter2.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Thu Jun 5 09:58:17 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Steve wrote: <> Steve, I wonder if by "ojective idealism" and "subjective idealism" you might've been referring to (what might be seen as?) somewhat basic differences between Zen and Theosophy ... From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 02 15:07:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60434 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 23:07:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 23:07:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 23:07:13 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E5B4B26292B for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:07:07 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005801c3a196$0a9b92c0$524ea450@khidr> To: References: Subject: Re: The Non-dual- Master "garment" of synthesis Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:07:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Steve and all of you, My views are: An Interesting view you offer Steve. But according to me - Blavatskys view was a true theosophical one. And if one reads her writings carefully one will realise, that she is just as interested in Shankara as she is in Kapila - but she is in a theosophical manner (not using dead-letter reading - or exoteric interpretations - of any "objectivé" labelling kind) - having a heart on all the 6 Indian Schools of philosophy - and calling Theosophy the synthesis of them. (To the Sai Baba interested readers: Sai Baba has the same view. They all teach spiritual wisdom - although the texts are now old - he says. --- So is Sai Baba really a Theosophist - with a reputation similar to a certain "liberal-christian-church now dead theosophist", just because he has said that he is the Avatar of the Age ??? --- Well, only YOU can make the answer - for yóurself. We shall now all persons on their spiritual fruits - also readers of these sentences.) And as I said before in my previous email - Vedanta is not for everyone to learn - where they are right now in their lifes. 1. First a quote confirming that claim of mine. But remember, that the methaphysical key is the 4th of the seven keys. And that the geometrical key is the 5th. of the seven - according to Blavatsky. The 5th, 6th and 7th berlongs to the inititates. The 4th have to be known before the others are revealed. (The reader could meditate a while on that.) I quote The Secret Doctrine --- [[Vol. 1, Page]] 269 THE FIRST CHAPTER OF CREATION. --- SUMMING UP. "As a whole, neither the foregoing nor what follows can be found in full anywhere. It is not taught in any of the six Indian schools of philosophy, for it pertains to their synthesis -- the seventh, which is the Occult doctrine. It is not traced on any crumbling papyrus of Egypt, nor is it any longer graven on Assyrian tile or granite wall. The Books of the Vedanta (the last word of human knowledge) give out but the metaphysical aspect of this world-Cosmogony; and their priceless thesaurus, the Upanishads -- Upa-ni-shad being a compound word meaning "the conquest of ignorance by the revelation of secret, spiritual knowledge" -- require now the additional possession of a Master-key to enable the student to get at their full meaning. The reason for this I venture to state here as I learned it from a Master. The name, "Upanishads," is usually translated "esoteric doctrine." These treatises form part of the Sruti or "revealed knowledge," Revelation, in short, and are generally attached to the Brahmana ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [[Vol. 1, Page]] 270 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. portion of the Vedas,* as their third division. There are over 150 Upanishads enumerated by, and known to, Orientalists, who credit the oldest with being written probably about 600 years B.C.; but of genuine texts there does not exist a fifth of the number. The Upanishads are to the Vedas what the Kabala is to the Jewish Bible. They treat of and expound the secret and mystic meaning of the Vedic texts. They speak of the origin of the Universe, the nature of Deity, and of Spirit and Soul, as also of the metaphysical connection of mind and matter. In a few words: They CONTAIN the beginning and the end of all human knowledge, but they have now ceased to REVEAL it, since the day of Buddha. If it were otherwise, the Upanishads could not be called esoteric, since they are now openly attached to the Sacred Brahmanical books, which have, in our present age, become accessible even to the Mlechchhas (out-castes) and the European Orientalists. One thing in them -- and this in all the Upanishads -- invariably and constantly points to their ancient origin, and proves (a) that they were written, in some of their portions, before the caste system became the tyrannical institution which it still is; and (b) that half of their contents have been eliminated, while some of them were rewritten and abridged. "The great Teachers of the higher Knowledge and the Brahmans are continually represented as going to Kshatriya (military caste) kings to become their pupils." As Cowell pertinently remarks, the Upanishads "breathe an entirely different spirit" (from other Brahmanical writings), "a freedom of thought unknown in any earlier work except in the Rig Veda hymns themselves." The second fact is explained by a tradition recorded in one of the MSS. on Buddha's life. It says that the Upanishads were originally attached to their Brahmanas after the beginning of a reform, which led to the exclusiveness of the present caste system among the Brahmins, a few centuries after the invasion of India by the "twice-born." They were complete in those days, and were used for the instruction of the chelas who were preparing for their initiation. " So I will safely say that the Upanishads --- which Blavatsky calls the "esoteric doctrine" is the methaphysicall version of the so ever sacret book the esoteric Kiu-ti on the World-Cosmonogy. But a master-key is needed to arrive at full understanding. - Agreed ? And as stated in my previous email. Blavatsky said, that some of the monasteries problably had some of the secret texts by Shankara in their possesion. It is also a fact, that Trevor Leggett has in around 1981 translated to english a released text (as late as app. 1952) - where Shankara comments on the Patanjali Yoga-Sutras. And Shankara finds no problems with this teaching in his commentary. 2. In one of her correspondances/articles named WHAT SHALL WE DO FOR OUR FELLOW-MEN? - 1889 Article by H. P. Blavatsky - she states the following : "Yet in the esotericism of the Upanishads, when correctly understood, and our esotericism, there will not be found much difference. Nor have I ever disputed any of the facts about Buddha as now brought forward; although these are facts from only his exoteric biography. Nor has he invented or drawn from his inner consciousness the philosophy he taught, but only the method of his rendering it. Buddhism being simply esoteric Bodhism taught before him secretly in the arcana of the Brahminical temples, contains, of course, more than one doctrine of which the Lord Buddha never spoke of in public. But this shows in no way that he did not teach them to his Arhats. Again, between "attachment to worldly views or interests" and the study of Cosmology, which is not "a worldly science" however, there is an abyss. One pertains to religious and philosophical asceticism, the other is necessary for the study of Occultism--which is not Buddhistic, but universal. Without the study of cosmogony and theogony which teach the hidden value of every force in Nature and their direct correspondence to, and relation with, the forces in man (or the principles) no occult psychophysics or knowledge of man as he truly is, is possible. No one is forced to study esoteric philosophy unless he likes it, nor has anyone ever confused Occultism with Buddhism or Vedantism.--H.P.B." http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/WhatShallWeDoForOurFellowMen.htm And my view is here in agreement with Blavatsky. Theosophy proper is not Buddhism alone - and nor the vedanta teachings of the Upanishads. 3. OCCULTISM VERSUS THE OCCULT ARTS - Article by H. P. Blavatsky - 1888. "There are four (out of the many other) names of the various kinds of Esoteric Knowledge or Sciences given, even in the esoteric Purânas. There is (1) Yajna-Vidya,1 knowledge of the occult powers awakened in Nature by the performance of certain religious ceremonies and rites. (2) Maha-vidya, the "great knowledge," the magic of the Kabalists and of the Tantrika worship, often Sorcery of the worst description. (3) Guhya-Vidya, knowledge of the mystic powers residing in Sound (Ether), hence in the Mantras (chanted prayers or incantations) and depending on the rhythm and melody used; in other words a magical performance based on Knowledge of the Forces of Nature and their correlation; and (4) ATMA-VIDYA, a term which is translated simply "knowledge of the Soul," true Wisdom by the Orientalists, but which means far more. This last is the only kind of Occultism that any theosophist who admires Light on the Path, and who would be wise and unselfish, ought to strive after. All the rest is some branch of the "Occult Sciences," i.e., arts based on the knowledge of the ultimate essence of all things in the Kingdoms of Nature--such as minerals, plants and animals--hence of things pertaining to the realm of material nature, however invisible that essence may be, and howsoever much it has hitherto eluded the grasp of Science. Alchemy, Astrology, Occult Physiology, Chiromancy, exist in Nature and the exact Sciences--perhaps so called, because they are found in this age of paradoxical philosophies the reverse--have already discovered not a few of the secrets of the above arts. But clairvoyance, symbolised in India as the "Eye of Siva," called in Japan, "Infinite Vision," is not Hypnotism, the illegitimate son of Mesmerism, and is not to be acquired by such arts. All the others may be mastered and results obtained, whether good, bad or indifferent; but Atma-Vidya sets small value on them. It includes them all and may even use them occasionally, but it does so after purifying them of their dross, for beneficent purposes, and taking care to deprive them of every element of selfish motive." http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/OccultismVersusTheOccultArts.htm 4. Actually If you try the index of The Secret Doctrine you will get a different view on who is most popular of Kapila and Shankara. Try these links: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd-index/dx-sa.htm ( index on Shankararchya) http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd-index/dx-ka-kd.htm ( index on Kapila) 5. True theosophy is in fact not described using labels. --- Theosophy is truth without form. --- Let us remmeber this. A few philosophical words: "Philosophy that cannot be understood, scriptures that are not practiced - the present world has plenty of these - it is a waste to talk of them." "The Teacher and the taught together produce the teachings." So Blavatskys teachings are rather complex. Life has learned me, that Atma-Vidya as taught by Shankara is allright, - and there are other paths as well. But it is true: Atma=Brahman Bhagavad Gita is another good example on the force there is behind the Upanishads ! from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "stevestubbs" To: Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" theosophy@a...> wrote: > > Hallo all of you, > > > > > > > > My views are: > > > > 1. > > The nearest exponent of the Esoteric philosophy "is the Vedanta as > expounded > > by the Advaita Vedantists," (Secret Doctrine, I, p. 55). (Bhagavad- > Gita, W. > > Q. Judge, p. 108) > > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/ve-vz.htm > > That is an interesting comment in view of the fact that Blavartsky's > system was objective dealism whereas Sankara's system wa ssubjective > idealism. We have in other words a radical difference of opinion at > the very core of the two systems. Blavatsky's theories are much > closer to Kapila than to Sankara. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 02 15:30:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54544 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 23:30:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 23:30:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 23:30:04 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DE2E547FFC4 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:30:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> To: Subject: The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:29:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo all of you, Maybe some of you can help me out. Even the speculating ones who scratches their heads of could have a view. A huge smile morphs the Sufilight face... What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? Does anyone know that ? Sai Baba resembles Khidr alarmingly much. And maybe it is so that Sai Baba really is Khidr ! Have you ever considered that ? Rethink that one - and live with your ignorance ---- if you have one, that is. There is always a lot of rumours both good and bad surrounding figures like Khidr and High Intitates. They have often be said to be intoxicated by either crazyness or by high spirituality. Views has often been divided on who they really are. The same can be said about Sai Baba. And so it also was when Jesus Christ walked the planet. (And he did !) Khidr is doing, what the ordinary Seeker doesn't understand. So does Sai Baba it is said. Khidr are also very often displaying - an extraordinary behaviour and spiritual forces. So does Sai Baba it is said. Khidr is said to be able to be at more than one location at the same time. So does Sai Baba it is said. Khidr is said to be able to materialize or dematerialize himself at will. Sai Baba is said to have done that. Khidr is also capeable of shifting his body's form. So it is said Sai Baba has done. He turned blue once looking like Krishna it is said. Khidr is also said to be a great Healer. So it is said Sai Baba is. Khidr is the Master of the Masters. I have heard clairvoyant teachers here in Denmark confess, that Sai Babas aura reaches - at least several kilometres in size. Khidr has an extraordinary level of knowledge. So it is said Sai Baba has. Khidr talks any language. So it is said Sai Baba can - at least several languages. (Dutch, Hindi, Telegu, English and others) Khidr is said to be master of time and space. So it is said Sai Baba is. So according to me Sai Baba is doing a - shall we say - good job in copying Khidr - the so ever mysterious Green Guide. Other though says he is only a fourth inititate - who has failed in carrying out his mission. Others calls him a trickster. And others don't know about him at all - and won't hear any talk about him. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... from M. Sufilight with peace and love... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 02 18:03:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 589 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 02:03:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 02:03:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 02:03:57 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.a3.4b5e6092 (3874) for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 21:03:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 21:03:45 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re "happiness is helping others" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10503 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mauri, Well, I think I stated a lower harmonic of the ultimate choice which is presented the Bodhisatva's, Mahatma's and aspiring Budha's, namely "Service to mankind" and foregoing the Nirvana to stay in the river of life on the Earth. I only meant to communicate my personal satisfaction when some action I took benefited another in a way that was realized as a positive action by them. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Nov 02 18:11:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28178 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 02:11:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 02:11:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.226) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 02:11:17 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGUBW-000479-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:11:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 21:12:35 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> In-Reply-To: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? > Does anyone know that ? Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, fraud, and probably a murderer. Bart From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 02 20:34:08 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 417 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 04:34:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 04:34:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 04:34:06 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-20.look.ca ([216.154.45.115] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGWPk-0004Ei-FT for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 04:34:04 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA5D9F8.7050300@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 23:30:48 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re John and qualifiers and whatever ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter4.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Thu Jun 5 09:58:17 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn John wrote: <> Okay I confess that I admire the way you and so many people don't seem to get hooked into so many qualifiers that ... For a change, and in keeping with my attempt to turn over some kind of newish leaf, I think I'll resist the temptation to offer you more qualifiers today, except that: one of these days, when I grow up ... ^:-/ ... Mauri From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 02 20:46:36 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20954 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 04:46:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 04:46:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gozer.look.ca) (207.136.80.10) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 04:46:35 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-36.look.ca ([216.154.45.131] helo=idirect.ca) by gozer.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGWbp-0000p8-HZ for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 04:46:33 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA5DCE5.60407@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 23:43:17 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re "speculating ones who scratches" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter3.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Morten wrote: <> Now you tell me in the middle of my attmpts to turn over some kind of less meandering, less confusing, less circular new leaf. Gee. Thanks for that, but ... ^:-/ ... Besides, it's too late in the day. I'm all tuckered out and scratched out for the day. ZZZZZZ Mauri From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 02 23:54:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91144 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 07:54:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 07:54:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 07:54:32 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id BBFCC5EE1AF for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:54:31 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:54:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Bart and all of you, My views are: So you KNOW that Bart ? And what does that make you ? (Now the readers will understand, that Bart problably will gave great difficulties in giving an honest answer to this last question.) from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? > > Does anyone know that ? > > Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, > fraud, and probably a murderer. > > Bart > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 03 00:32:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26097 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 08:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 08:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 08:32:03 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0247E5EE284 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:32:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005401c3a1e4$efa96f60$524ea450@khidr> To: Subject: Nasrudin tales...part 1 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:31:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo everyone, Here are a few stories about the notorius Mulla Nasrudin. Nasrudin being a special character from the Middle Eastern parts of this physical Planet. Mulla (i.e. Master) Nasrudin - sometimes seen together with Khidr - is the classical figure devised by the initiates partly for the purpose of halting for a moment situations in which certain states of mind are made clear. The Nasrudin stories, known throughout the Middle East, constitute (in the manuscript The Subtleties of the Incomparable Nasrudin) on of the strangest achievements in the history of metaphysics. Superficially, most of the Nasrudin stories may be used as jokes. They are told and retold endlessly in the teahouses and the caravansarais, in the homes and on the radio waves, of Asia. But it is in herent in the Nasrudin story that it may be understood at any one of many depths. There is the joke, the moral - and the little extra which brings the consciousness of the potential mystic a little further on the way to realization. Nobody really knows who Nasrudin was, where he lived, or when. This is truely in character, for the whole intention is to provide a figure who cannot really be characterized, and who is timeless. It is the MESSAGE, and NOT the man, which is important to the Theosophists or the Sufis, because they KNOW. This has not prevented people from providing him with spurious history, and even at tomb! Scholars, against whose pedantry in his stories Nasrudin frequently emerges triumphant, have even tried to take his - Subtleties - to pieces in the hope of finding appropiate biographical material. If we look at some of the classical Nasrudin stories in as detached a way as possible, we soon find that the wholly scholastic approach is the last one that the Theosophist or Sufi will allow (think about Blavatsky): Nasrudin ferying a pedant across a piece of rough water, said something ungrammatical to him. "Have you never studied grammar?" asked the scholar. "No." "Then half of your life has been wasted." A few minutes later Nasrudin turned tot he passenger. "Have you ever learned how to SWIM?" "No. Why?" "Then ALL your life is wasted - we are sinking!" This is the emphasis upon Theosophy or Sufism as a practical activity, denying that the formal intellect can arrive at TRUTH, and that pattern-thinking derived from the familiar world can be applied to TRUE reality, which moves in another dimension. This is brought out even more forcefully in a - wry - tale set in a teahouse; a Theosophical term for a meeting place of Theosophists. A monk enters and states: "My master taught me to spread the word that mankind will never be fullfilled until the man who has NOT been wronged is as indignant about a wrong as the man who actually HAS been wronged." The assembly is momentarily impressed. Then Nasrudin speaks: "My Master taught ME that nobody at all should become indignant about anything until he is sure that what he thinks is a wrong is in fact a wrong - and not a blessing in disguise!" (Now, where is my friend Bart ? ---- Smile.) from M. Sufilight with some swimming Nasrudin tombs...and a smile... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 03 06:21:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 3803 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 14:21:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 14:21:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gatekeeper.look.ca) (207.136.80.8) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 14:21:14 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-04-44.look.ca ([216.154.45.187] helo=idirect.ca) by gatekeeper.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGfZr-0007TI-8M for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:21:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA66382.7020902@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 09:17:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re to Morten Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter4.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Morten wrote: <> No idea. Don't know anything about Khidr and don't really-enough know much about SB either and I don't seem to really-enough know much about anything much, so ... ^:-/ ... From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 03 06:51:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61678 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 14:51:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 14:51:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 14:51:12 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id C18AF5EE226 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:51:08 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <003101c3a219$e6ef7240$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <3FA66382.7020902@idirect.ca> Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Morten Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:51:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Mauri, My views are: The manner in which certain theosophical systems operate requires, that the interested Seekers after Truth and Wisdom study a system, which enables them to learn how to learn. Or how to remove ignorance (as promoted by Shankara and others). When one reaches a certain level of understanding of such a system, one quite often NOT need to speculate any more. Isn't that great ? If course there is a downside. One will be at risk of losing ones - speculating image. But, that can't be that much worth, at least not when compared to non-speculating wisdom. Properly absorbed Theosophy is such a system as it was promoted by Blavatsky. Patience is required if one is ignorant. And study is important at first. Using, Books are not the only means by which such a study might take place. Try eventually also my next email. These are just my views... from M. Sufilight with peace and love...and some notorious scratches... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mauri" To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 3:17 PM Subject: Theos-World re to Morten > Morten wrote: < me out. Even the speculating ones who > scratches their heads of could have a view. > What is the difference between Sathya Sai > Baba and Khidr ? Does anyone know that ?>> > > No idea. Don't know anything about Khidr > and don't really-enough know much about SB > either and I don't seem to really-enough know > much about anything much, so ... ^:-/ ... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 03 07:07:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99564 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 15:07:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 15:07:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 15:07:53 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 63EE1262A9C for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:07:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000d01c3a21c$3b04cc20$524ea450@khidr> To: Subject: Meetings and coming togehter...and a key Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:07:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo everyone, The following could be reflected and contemplated on. It in fact among other issues deals with the coming together here at our forum. Meetings or Coming together A question was posed: What is the harmonisation of a community or a group through what is called the 'Coming-Together' method ? The may very well be different answer to scuh a question. The following is a short version of what the answer could be. The Kernel of the visible aspect called 'Theosophy' is the basic human unit: the members meet together and carry on the studies prescribed for them by a contemporary Teacher. This is necessary to the realisation which comes from being a Theosophist. It may be called community, communion, meeting. It is unimportant what it is called, what is important is to see how every form of human search which later becomes a system, a 'religion', or an enterprise of any kind, originally depends upon this coming-together. It is often called JAM - coming together: pronounced as if to rhyme with 'hum'. Meeting for worship, teamwork of all kinds, learning in groups, all are derivations and usally diluted ones, of this basic factor. It is the Theosophists, the real Theosophists, who preserve the original means of operating in this JAM. As time passes, in ordinary communities without special safeguards, the working of this coming-together becomes less and less effective, more and more formalised or generalised, until the JAM no longer exists. What takes its place is social 'togetherness', or emotional enthusiasm, intellectual stimulations or conditioned response to being in a collection of people. No higher attainment is possible to man unless the circumstances of the coming-together are correct; unless it is a communion including the right people, at the right time, in the right place. Impatience, ignorance, sentimentality, intellectualism tend to cause people to convert the true 'JAM' situation until it becomes something else. This essential knowledge has always existed amongst humanity, and continous to exist. But superficial and in general popularised thinking have obscured the real working of this coming-together, until people can only see innumerable forms of deteriorated 'JAM' - which they accept or reject according to whether they seem attractive, plausible or 'true'. It may often be impossible to re-form a degenerated coming-togehter community. It will then be possible to regenerate it only by breaking old habit-patterns and regrouping poeple who can really be harmonised. This may cause a very different - and perhaps unacceptable - appearance of the whole effort to those who have become accustomed to a false situation. The selection of participants on the basis of their capacity and not their assumed importance always causes discontent in those who have lost the power to adapt. This kind of lack of flexibility is, in turn, an inevitable characteristic of people and groups which have been running on automatistic patterns and which need revivifying. It is an evident fact that true communities and organisations 'run down' and develop peculiarites other than were present in their origins. They may do this because of the ascendancy of undesirable characteristics in the participants, or because there is a widespread tendency for people and groups to attempt to stabilise themselves by using the nearest availbale organisation, irrespective of whether this kind of stabilisation loses more than it gains. This is the major perennial reason for the cyclic emergence of living teachers. It is the alone who can restore harmony and balance in circles and individuals which have sacrificed these things in the search for continuity and reassurance in the hope of stabilisation. Were it possible to attain the object in a systematised way, the means to do so would have been enunciated and recorded many thousand years ago: just as the laws of ordinary material stability and performance are recorded and employed in physics or in applied arts. The reactions of an audience to the efforts of a real teacher to redress the balance of an organisation are always predictable. They will include despair, confusion, desire for stimulus, fear that something might be taken away, rejection, and a desire to accept in order to profit by the ' new pahse'. There are today two main kinds of communities: one, the community produced and maintained by what is today called indoctrination; the other, the one accumulated and harmonised by starting with the right materials and the right knowledge. The situation with regard to the understanding of the subtler potential of the group and its finer tuning has its anlogy in the following: Some are but children on the Path, they drink of the milk of what they call their Holy Book, in its literal sense. And those who have reached maturity have a seperate perception and another understanding, that of the inward significance of the so-called Holy Book. We aught as Seekers after Truth and wisdom always be concerned with the issue of time, place and people. Being at the right place, at the right time together with the right people is of importance. Yet, this is the problem of the beginner Seekers after Wisdom and Truth. They often do not know where to look when they are seeking enlightenment. As a result, it is hardly surprising that they may attach themselves to any cult, immerse themselves in all manner of theories, really believeing that they have the capacity to distinguish the true from the false. And often they also refuse to face the fact, that this is what they are doing. As if this could elevate their situation Nasrudin the notorious trickster - taught - this in several ways. On one ocassion a neighbor found him down on his knees looking for something. "What er you looking for, Nasrudin?" "My key," said Nasrudin. After a few minutes of searching, the other man said, "Where did you drop it?". "At home." "Then why, for heaven's sake, are you looking here?" "There is more light here." This is one of the most famous of all Nasrudin tales, used by many Theosophists, commenting upon people who seek exotic sources for enlightenment. The mechanism of rationalization is one which effectively bars the deepening of perception. The Theosophical impact may often be wasted because the individual will not properly absorb it. In the development of the human mind, there is a constant change and linit to the usefulness of any particular technique. This characteristic of Theosophical practise is ignored in prepetitious systems, which condition the mind and create an atmosphere of attainment or nearness to attainment, without actually producing it. Feel free to agree or disagree...we can only do our best. from M: Sufilight with peace and love... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 03 11:35:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49297 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 19:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 19:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 19:35:29 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGkU5-0001V8-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 11:35:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:36:47 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> In-Reply-To: <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > My views are: > So you KNOW that Bart ? > And what does that make you ? Yes, I know that. And that makes me someone who is trying to save others from being led down a path fed by the selfishness of an individual, thinking that they are moving down a path towards evolution. Of course, evolution is possible by being conned, once one realizes it, but how many people here would rather learn things the hard way than the easy way. > (Now the readers will understand, that Bart problably will gave great > difficulties in giving an honest answer to this last question.) That comes dangerously close to a personal attack. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bart Lidofsky" >>Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: >> >>>What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? >>>Does anyone know that ? >> >>Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, >>fraud, and probably a murderer. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 03 11:50:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54553 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 19:50:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 19:50:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 19:50:50 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 101335EE0F9 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:50:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:50:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Bart and all of you, My views are: Bart there is no - personal attack here except yours on Sai Baba. An attack which is baseless for the time being ! It is just like Germany invading Polen during WWII - and then asking who started it all ? But Bart if you truely KNOWS, what you say - and you just don't ASSUME it instead, you must in fact be on a HIGHER level of consciousness than Sathya Sai Baba (which teachings are quite differerntly - if one compares them with your views on him as being a fraud etc...). Agreed ? If so, I think, that this is a false claim comming from you Bart. I think we shall know each human being on their spiritual emanation of FRUITS and not on their level of prejudice alone - or the rumours surrounding them. Fact is not the same as assumptions. If I for certain quite inthinkable reason - should be mistaken - it is a great moment we are arriving at here at Theos-Talk. So what is your spiritual emanation of FRUITS - Bart ?¨ Verbal or mental melon-monsters ? If we should follow our assumptions all the time, - the mass-medias would have a ball of tremendous proportions. And they already have that, - maybe thanks to short comments similar to yours. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > My views are: > > So you KNOW that Bart ? > > And what does that make you ? > > Yes, I know that. And that makes me someone who is trying to save > others from being led down a path fed by the selfishness of an > individual, thinking that they are moving down a path towards evolution. > Of course, evolution is possible by being conned, once one realizes it, > but how many people here would rather learn things the hard way than the > easy way. > > > (Now the readers will understand, that Bart problably will gave great > > difficulties in giving an honest answer to this last question.) > > That comes dangerously close to a personal attack. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > >>Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > >> > >>>What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? > >>>Does anyone know that ? > >> > >>Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, > >>fraud, and probably a murderer. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 03 12:13:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95558 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 20:13:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 20:13:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 20:13:22 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGl4k-0004o9-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 12:13:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA6B733.5010807@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 15:14:43 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> In-Reply-To: <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > Bart there is no - personal attack here except yours on Sai Baba. An attack > which is baseless for the time being ! Blackmailer: I have seen the testimony of many members who, as his followers, were required to confess their past misdeeds to him, and, when they wanted to leave, were told that he would make the recordings of those confessions public (and did). Fraud: I've seen the videotapes, including one where his assistant handed him the gold to be materialized with the wrong hand, the one facing the camera. Probably a murderer: When the videotape specifically mentioned above was made public, the assistant who fouled up the hand-off was found murdered. No other motive for this murder has been found. Bart From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 03 12:42:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52207 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 20:42:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 20:42:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 20:42:44 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 7471848004D for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:42:27 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000901c3a24a$ff198cd0$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6B733.5010807@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:42:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Bart and all of you, My views are given in the below using ***. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > Bart there is no - personal attack here except yours on Sai Baba. An attack > > which is baseless for the time being ! > > Blackmailer: I have seen the testimony of many members who, as his > followers, were required to confess their past misdeeds to him, and, > when they wanted to leave, were told that he would make the recordings > of those confessions public (and did). *** I have also seen and read many of their accusations. - But fair aught to be fair. Is their accusations just as good as valid truth ? Another view is, that it is easy to throw dirt upon a single person in a world of massmedias - if Karma permits you to do it. Just give me - one clue to how Sai Baba's behaviour in the matter we exchange on - can be said to be suspicious --- anyone ? For God's and ParaBrahman's sake - the little fellow Baba teaches spiritual theosophy - with the Heart at Bhagavad Gita ! And he is acting quite extraordinary - isn't he ? If he has been fumbling - well then he has, but is it really that likely and can it be prooven - and not only assumed about, that is what I ask ? I think it is a wrong to use their assumptions or claims as a valid proof Bart - and it is certainly not a theosophical proof. If we go back in time and point out the different great spiritual personalities in the past, you will experience - rumours of different kinds surrounding them as well. This case Sai Baba is another - but special one, because he claims to be the Avatar of the Age. *** > > Fraud: I've seen the videotapes, including one where his assistant > handed him the gold to be materialized with the wrong hand, the one > facing the camera. *** Videotapes can be tapered with. And Khidr sometimes - deliberately makes what is unexpected to help those who needs a scapegoat - to get one. Maybe Sai Baba did that as well ? I just ask. Because my own view is that he did - but it is only a view, which I am basing on a not so solid rock. Maybe it is the disbelievers or better the ignorants who are most need of help ? - You could consider that. *** > > Probably a murderer: When the videotape specifically mentioned above was > made public, the assistant who fouled up the hand-off was found > murdered. No other motive for this murder has been found. *** Give up Bart. >:-) A man who uses as his message the word: LOVE, --- is he the most likely suspect ? Maybe NSA or Mossad wasted the poor fellow, because Sai Baba was a treath to their ideologies ? As they say in the movies: Pick up the most likely suspects. (I.e. The known agressors !) But allright - you use the word: "Problably". Come on Bart - if you can honesly tell me that your evaluation of Sai Baba is fair, - then we can reach an agreement. So far I conclude, that you havn't. This exchange of words i not helping the forum very much. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... *** > > Bart > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 03 19:16:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31289 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 03:16:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 03:16:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 03:16:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2003 03:16:22 -0000 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 03:16:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Chain Letter Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 408 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.89.60 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs This is one of those obnoxious chain letters but I thought I would pass it on anyway. Enjoy. >If God brings you to it, >He will bring you through it. >Happy moments, praise God. >Difficult moments, seek God. >Quiet moments, worship God. >Painful moments, trust God. >Every moment, thank God. > >Pass this message to seven people except you and me. You will receive >a miracle tomorrow ( just do it ). From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 03 20:06:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81679 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 04:06:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 04:06:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 04:06:53 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-01-36.look.ca ([216.154.45.36] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGsSx-0004TO-Ga; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 04:06:51 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA72519.6030609@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:03:37 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Theosophy Study List X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re Jesus and Mary Magdalen as "his wife" ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter1.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=6.5 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Thu Jun 5 09:58:17 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn A while back I quoted:<<"Behold, I have put on my garment and all authority is given to me through the First Mystery.>> Seems Jesus might've said something like that after his passing, and might've said, in effect: <> to, possibly, Mary Magdalen in particular, as well as to others ... Just tonight I found out from a TV documentary about "THE DA VINCI CODE" that "don't touch me" is a translation from the Greek "do not cling to me." That was interpreted as throwing light on the notion that (maybe?) Jesus might've been married to Mary Magdalen, contrary to church dictates. That is, apparently it just wasn't kosher those days for unmarried people to "cling" to each other. Not that ... And the documentary discussed another theory about the "Da Vinci Code" re "THE LAST SUPPER" (by Da Vinci) and the controversy over whether the person on Jesus's right is a woman or not. Seems like a woman to me, for the most part, apparently ... Any opinions out there? As we all here know, I suspect, the early church people were all kind of male oriented dictators, among other things, who might not have taken kindly to allowing much in the way of a church-related role for Mary Magdalen (so Da Vinci was thought to have made her seem as if she might've been male, so as not to get in trouble). And then there were all the documents/books that were destroyed on instructions from the early church, apparently, so, according to that documentary, there's no proof that Jesus might've fathered children who went on to establish communities in France or elsewhere. So a question might be: was the "holy grail" really Mary Magdalen and/or a child ... Speculatively, Mauri From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Nov 04 00:32:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55024 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 08:32:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 08:32:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 08:32:45 -0000 Received: from adsl (200-215-125-162.fnsce7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.125.162]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2129447B0F for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:32:42 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <003301c3a2ad$27d94c20$0301010a@adsl> To: References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> Subject: a view on Master Sai Baba Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:24:47 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "krishtar_a" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bart. I can=B4t help agreeing with Morten somehow. I am not a SS Baba devotee.I have made much reseach about him in spite of a= ll the criticism. Researches ranging from Books, Articles, Isites about the book of Mr. Baile= y ( " the findings" )and all the accusations of ex-devoteesand so on. I discovered that he=B4s not a god incarnated, but a man with defects such = as all of us. Even so , along all these years of intense activitity, there=B4s never been= any man, holy or not holyman, polititian in India during these last 50 yea= rs who has helped his people as much as he did concerning to education, wat= er, public health and hospital and schools building. My question is, in this discussion list where all members have an important= chance to prove they=B4ve learned something from Theosophy, what have we a= ll done for your neighboors besides criticizing Baba? Do we criticizers do as much ad this "faker man" does for each others? For = his people? Vrindavan village and Andhra Pradesh were just tiny places in India=B4s map= before Baba started helping them. My view is that sometimes we are acting like those who criticized and preju= diced HPB. It is useless in a discussion list, principally when we are discussing the = teachings of those who preached about brotherhood of men. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Morten Nymann Olesen=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? Hallo Bart and all of you, My views are: Bart there is no - personal attack here except yours on Sai Baba. An atta= ck which is baseless for the time being ! It is just like Germany invading Polen during WWII - and then asking who started it all ? But Bart if you truely KNOWS, what you say - and you just don't ASSUME it instead, you must in fact be on a HIGHER level of consciousness than Sathya Sai Ba= ba (which teachings are quite differerntly - if one compares them with your views on him as being a fraud etc...). Agreed ? If so, I think, that this is a false claim comming from you Bart. I think we shall know each human being on their spiritual emanation of FRUITS and not on their level of prejudice alone - or the rumours surrounding them. Fact is not the same as assumptions. If I for certain quite inthinkable reason - should be mistaken - it is a great moment we are arriving at here at Theos-Talk. So what is your spiritual emanation of FRUITS - Bart ?=A8 Verbal or mental melon-monsters ? If we should follow our assumptions all the time, - the mass-medias would have a ball of tremendous proportions. And they already have that, - maybe thanks to short comments similar to yours. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > My views are: > > So you KNOW that Bart ? > > And what does that make you ? > > Yes, I know that. And that makes me someone who is trying to save > others from being led down a path fed by the selfishness of an > individual, thinking that they are moving down a path towards evolution= . > Of course, evolution is possible by being conned, once one realizes it, > but how many people here would rather learn things the hard way than th= e > easy way. > > > (Now the readers will understand, that Bart problably will gave great > > difficulties in giving an honest answer to this last question.) > > That comes dangerously close to a personal attack. > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > >>Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > >> > >>>What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? > >>>Does anyone know that ? > >> > >>Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, > >>fraud, and probably a murderer. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/term= s/ > > =20=20=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Nov 04 07:35:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26059 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 15:35:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 15:35:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 15:35:11 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AH3Ct-0006Hb-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 07:34:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA7C772.5040400@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:36:18 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> <003301c3a2ad$27d94c20$0301010a@adsl> In-Reply-To: <003301c3a2ad$27d94c20$0301010a@adsl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar_a wrote: > Even so , along all these years of intense activitity, there´s never > been any man, holy or not holyman, polititian in India during these > last 50 years who has helped his people as much as he did concerning > to education, water, public health and hospital and schools building. > My question is, in this discussion list where all members have an > important chance to prove they´ve learned something from Theosophy, > what have we all done for your neighboors besides criticizing Baba? > Do we criticizers do as much ad this "faker man" does for each > others? For his people? Vrindavan village and Andhra Pradesh were > just tiny places in India´s map before Baba started helping them. I never got the trains to run on time. Pardon me if I continue to criticize Mussolini. From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Nov 04 08:07:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31123 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 16:07:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 16:07:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 16:07:01 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_dev1.2.) id r.18c.21e4f4e7 (4394) for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:06:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <18c.21e4f4e7.2cd9288e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:06:38 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 From: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 11/4/03 9:39:03 AM Central Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << I never got the trains to run on time. Pardon me if I continue to criticize Mussolini. >> And Uncle Al Capone ran soup kitchens. Sai Baba Booey is a fraud and a goon. There is no polite way to put it and there is no reason to be polite about it. Chuck From rwuertz@hotmail.com Tue Nov 04 09:39:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: rwuertz@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69387 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 17:39:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 17:39:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.23.76) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 17:39:49 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:39:49 -0800 Received: from 65.29.238.4 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:39:49 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rwuertz@hotmail.com] To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 11:39:49 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2003 17:39:49.0811 (UTC) FILETIME=[A577A030:01C3A2FA] From: "Ryan Wuertz" X-Originating-IP: [65.29.238.4] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=157978555 Extremely Valid, well informed Point! Thank you for speaking (writing) it Krishtar. Ryan >From: "krishtar_a" >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba >Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:24:47 -0200 > >Hi Bart. >I can´t help agreeing with Morten somehow. >I am not a SS Baba devotee.I have made much reseach about him in spite of >all the criticism. >Researches ranging from Books, Articles, Isites about the book of Mr. >Bailey ( " the findings" )and all the accusations of ex-devoteesand so on. >I discovered that he´s not a god incarnated, but a man with defects such as >all of us. >Even so , along all these years of intense activitity, there´s never been >any man, holy or not holyman, polititian in India during these last 50 >years who has helped his people as much as he did concerning to education, >water, public health and hospital and schools building. >My question is, in this discussion list where all members have an important >chance to prove they´ve learned something from Theosophy, what have we all >done for your neighboors besides criticizing Baba? >Do we criticizers do as much ad this "faker man" does for each others? For >his people? >Vrindavan village and Andhra Pradesh were just tiny places in India´s map >before Baba started helping them. >My view is that sometimes we are acting like those who criticized and >prejudiced HPB. >It is useless in a discussion list, principally when we are discussing the >teachings of those who preached about brotherhood of men. > >Krishtar > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Morten Nymann Olesen > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 5:50 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > > > Hallo Bart and all of you, > > My views are: > > Bart there is no - personal attack here except yours on Sai Baba. An >attack > which is baseless for the time being ! > It is just like Germany invading Polen during WWII - and then asking who > started it all ? > > > But Bart if you truely KNOWS, what you say - > and you just don't ASSUME it instead, > you must in fact be on a HIGHER level of consciousness than Sathya Sai >Baba > (which teachings are quite differerntly - if one compares them with your > views on him as being a fraud etc...). > Agreed ? > > If so, I think, that this is a false claim comming from you Bart. > I think we shall know each human being on their spiritual emanation of > FRUITS and not on their level of prejudice alone - or the rumours > surrounding them. Fact is not the same as assumptions. > If I for certain quite inthinkable reason - should be mistaken - it is a > great moment we are arriving at here at Theos-Talk. > > So what is your spiritual emanation of FRUITS - Bart ?¨ > Verbal or mental melon-monsters ? > > If we should follow our assumptions all the time, - the mass-medias >would > have a ball of tremendous proportions. > And they already have that, - maybe thanks to short comments similar to > yours. > > from > M. Sufilight with peace and love... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:36 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > > > > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > > My views are: > > > So you KNOW that Bart ? > > > And what does that make you ? > > > > Yes, I know that. And that makes me someone who is trying to save > > others from being led down a path fed by the selfishness of an > > individual, thinking that they are moving down a path towards >evolution. > > Of course, evolution is possible by being conned, once one realizes >it, > > but how many people here would rather learn things the hard way than >the > > easy way. > > > > > (Now the readers will understand, that Bart problably will gave >great > > > difficulties in giving an honest answer to this last question.) > > > > That comes dangerously close to a personal attack. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > > >>Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > >> > > >>>What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? > > >>>Does anyone know that ? > > >> > > >>Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, > > >>fraud, and probably a er. > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > _________________________________________________________________ Great deals on high-speed Internet access as low as $26.95. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Nov 04 09:40:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12826 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 17:40:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 17:40:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 17:40:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2003 17:38:39 -0000 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:38:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: a view on Master Sai Baba Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003301c3a2ad$27d94c20$0301010a@adsl> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 1376 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.87.161 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krishtar_a" =20 wrote: > I discovered that he=B4s not a god incarnated, but a man with defects=20 such as all of us. > Even so , along all these years of intense activitity, there=B4s=20 never been any man, holy or not holyman, polititian in India during=20 these last 50 years who has helped his people as much as he did=20 concerning to education, water, public health and hospital and=20 schools building. I think the problemiis that you are not keeping the issues separate.=20=20 You have determined to your satisfaction that Sai Baba is not a god,=20 which I sarcastically say "No Jive!" You and Bart seem to be in=20 total agreement on this. You have also satisfied yourself that he is=20 a philanthropist. That he is a philanthropist does not negate your=20 contention that he is not deity and vice versa. So it muddles the=20 issue to say that he may be a philanthroopist therefore we cannot say=20 how ridiculous it is that he also claims to be a god. A certain well=20 known American billionaire may be a philanthropist but if he infected=20 someone with HIV and then promised to cure him by means of a miracle=20 (a promise which subsequently was not redeemed) we would all wonder=20 if the stress of being a tycoon had affected his reason. Fortunately=20 the fellow I am thinking of has never done anything of this sort, but=20 Sai Baba has. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Nov 04 09:41:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75853 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 17:41:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 17:41:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 17:41:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.251] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2003 17:41:37 -0000 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:41:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <18c.21e4f4e7.2cd9288e@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 220 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.87.161 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > There is no polite way to put it and there is no reason to be polite about it. Thank goodness for that. Anyone who wants to be polite is on the wrong list. From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Nov 04 11:15:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63617 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 19:15:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 19:15:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 19:15:14 -0000 Received: from adsl (200-215-125-162.fnsce7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.125.162]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B2881000D6 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:15:13 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> To: Subject: politeness or goodness on SS Baba Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:07:36 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "krishtar_a" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dears, Personally I think this type of criticism doesn=B4t change anything, doesn= =B4t help anything. Baba cannot hear you. If he=B4do, It wouldn=B4t change him. Much less a criticism build up of words behind a computer keyboard. About politeness: I think I am in a theosophy list, attempting honestly to be a theosophist a= nd if we act like ordinary people with guns in the top of our tongues, what= good is to study theosophy =B4s wisdom? What good has all this study produced? I once read that every thought we produce, creates a thought-form. Accordi= ng to its nature it may be constructive or not We are studying the work of the Arhats. It means - at least to me it does - that it is indeed the essence of esoter= ic buddhism and its principles of kindness and benevolence.=20 Are you aware of what you were in the past life? It is not necessary to be a genius to find out that if Master Morya, Koot H= oo Mi or Djwal Kool had got this way of thinking, they=B4d never leave us a= ll this theosophy Wisdom.Not even would HPB sacrify her life for its cause. ...........................................................................= ........................ I=B4d rather use the term " goodness" than " politeness."=20 Polite is according to a code, goodness is according to heart. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: stevestubbs=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > There is no polite way to put it and there is no reason to be=20 polite about it. Thank goodness for that. Anyone who wants to be polite is on the=20 wrong list. =20=20=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Tue Nov 04 12:22:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98564 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 20:22:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 20:22:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 20:22:37 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id F38945EE309 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:22:31 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002201c3a311$599dc830$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <18c.21e4f4e7.2cd9288e@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:22:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo everyone, Life is an opportunity afforded to each not to eat and drink, but to achieve something nobler and higher to merge in the Reality. - Sri Sathya Sai Baba Sai Baba has so often said, "Love is God. God is love." and "All your acts must be saturated with love... then righteousness will naturally manifest itself in all your undertakings...Love is the very foundation of righteousness and nonviolence." from M. sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 5:06 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba > In a message dated 11/4/03 9:39:03 AM Central Standard Time, > bartl@sprynet.com writes: > > << I never got the trains to run on time. Pardon me if I continue to > criticize Mussolini. > > >> > > And Uncle Al Capone ran soup kitchens. Sai Baba Booey is a fraud and a goon. > > There is no polite way to put it and there is no reason to be polite about it. > > Chuck > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Tue Nov 04 12:51:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41419 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 20:51:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 20:51:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 20:51:47 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 34E9A5EE333 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:51:46 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <004e01c3a315$6f4c2dd0$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> Subject: Re: Theos-World politeness or goodness on SS Baba Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:51:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo everyone, My views are views: Allright - you can choose your own God, and that will be enough. I suggest, that we - See good, do good, be good and also think good. If Sai Baba is bad, one should help him (or her) - and not just shout at him. Who will that help? Is your motivation to help people get scared ? Being helpful to Sai Baba and make him understand what you call the truth in your views would be better. None escapes change except the true Avatar of the Age. If it is Sai Baba, only the Avatar the Age knows. What have you in mind as being helpful to Sai Baba, so he stops being what you say he is ? Helping him must be the same as helping all his devotee's who are on the wrong path. What is wrong. You dare put someone down, whom you claim not to be an Avatar, but you won't help him/her or ...what ...? Teach only love... Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline... Keep your Heart ready to absorb the Love of God... Only love can take you to God... Search for Him (God) with the heart, not with the eye of externals. The Super-power has to be sought in the super-state it self, not in the lower states. Then if you have eyes that are fit to see and the wisdom to understand, you will find Him (God). (Sathya Sai Speak, vol. 1, page 177). "Hridaya" refers to the spiritual heart, which is common to all. It is present everywhere. It has no form. You must try to understand the "I". That "I" is the heart. It is the Atma. It is Brahman. You are Atma, which is entangled in the body, a wave of...God. Attention fixed on one's Atma -- that is the means of liberation. - Sai Baba Always help, never hurt ! Agree ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar_a" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:07 PM Subject: Theos-World politeness or goodness on SS Baba Dears, Personally I think this type of criticism doesn´t change anything, doesn´t help anything. Baba cannot hear you. If he´do, It wouldn´t change him. Much less a criticism build up of words behind a computer keyboard. About politeness: I think I am in a theosophy list, attempting honestly to be a theosophist and if we act like ordinary people with guns in the top of our tongues, what good is to study theosophy ´s wisdom? What good has all this study produced? I once read that every thought we produce, creates a thought-form. According to its nature it may be constructive or not We are studying the work of the Arhats. It means - at least to me it does - that it is indeed the essence of esoteric buddhism and its principles of kindness and benevolence. Are you aware of what you were in the past life? It is not necessary to be a genius to find out that if Master Morya, Koot Hoo Mi or Djwal Kool had got this way of thinking, they´d never leave us all this theosophy Wisdom.Not even would HPB sacrify her life for its cause. ............................................................................ ....................... I´d rather use the term " goodness" than " politeness." Polite is according to a code, goodness is according to heart. Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: stevestubbs To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > There is no polite way to put it and there is no reason to be polite about it. Thank goodness for that. Anyone who wants to be polite is on the wrong list. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Nov 04 13:09:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15700 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 21:09:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 21:09:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 21:09:20 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AH8QS-0004n2-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:09:20 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA815CF.4010001@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:10:39 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World politeness or goodness on SS Baba References: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> In-Reply-To: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar_a wrote: > Personally I think this type of criticism doesn´t change anything, > doesn´t help anything. Baba cannot hear you. If he´do, It wouldn´t > change him. No, but it might dissuade a potential victim. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Tue Nov 04 13:11:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6268 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 21:11:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 21:11:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 21:11:47 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2243F5EE199 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:11:46 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005a01c3a318$3a8d0990$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> Subject: Correction: politeness or goodness on SS Baba Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:11:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo everyone, Sorry - my fingers got entangled in a shorcut....(Smile...). My views are views: Allright - you can choose your own God, and that will be enough. I suggest, that we - See good, do good, be good and also think good. If Sai Baba is bad, one should help him (or her) - and not just shout at him. Who will that help? Is your motivation to help people get scared ? Being helpful to Sai Baba and make him understand what you call the truth in your views would be better. None escapes - change - except the true Avatar of the Age. If it is Sai Baba, only the Avatar the Age knows. What have you in mind as being helpful to Sai Baba, so he stops being what you say he is ? Helping him must be the same as helping all his devotee's who are on the wrong path. What is wrong. You dare put someone down, whom you claim not to be an Avatar, but you won't help him/her or ...what ...? Teach only love... Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline... Keep your Heart ready to absorb the Love of Go