From PhilotesII@aol.com Sat Nov 01 15:48:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: PhilotesII@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2608 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2003 23:48:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2003 23:48:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2003 23:48:26 -0000 Received: from PhilotesII@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.b2.2459b09b (3988) for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:48:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 18:48:19 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 From: PhilotesII@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=150072488 X-Yahoo-Profile: philotesii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 30/10/2003 12:12:49 GMT Standard Time, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/at-az.htm Thank you for the link. I have been searching for this document a long time. I knew it must exist somewhere and until your link I just could not find it. This is extremely helpful to me. Philotes II [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Nov 01 16:44:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34440 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 00:44:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 00:44:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 00:44:38 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E911347FEEF for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 01:44:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000d01c3a0da$7b448a70$524ea450@khidr> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 01:44:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo all of you, My views are: 1. The nearest exponent of the Esoteric philosophy "is the Vedanta as expounded by the Advaita Vedantists," (Secret Doctrine, I, p. 55). (Bhagavad-Gita, W. Q. Judge, p. 108) http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/ve-vz.htm Vedanta is not for everyone to learn. 2.Quoting The Secret Doctrine: Sri Sankaracharya, the greatest Initiate living in the historical ages, wrote many a Bhashya on the Upanishads. But his original treatises, as there are reasons to suppose, have not yet fallen into the hands of the Philistines, for they are too jealously preserved in his maths (monasteries, mathams). And there are still weightier reasons to believe that the priceless Bhashyas (Commentaries) on the esoteric doctrine of the Brahmins, by their greatest expounder, will remain for ages yet a dead letter to most of the Hindus, except the Smartava Brahmins. This sect, founded by Sankaracharya, (which is still very powerful in Southern India) is now almost the only one to produce students who have preserved sufficient knowledge to comprehend the [[Footnote(s) -------------------------------------------------]] * Also called "the Sons of Wisdom," and of the "Fire-Mist" and the "Brothers of the Sun" in the Chinese records. Si-dzang (Tibet) is mentioned in the MSS. of the sacred library of the province of Fo-Kien, as the great seat of Occult learning from time immemorial, ages before Buddha. The Emperor Yu, the "great" (2,207 years B.C.), a pious mystic and great adept, is said to have obtained his knowledge from the "great teachers of the Snowy Range" in Si-dzang. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [[Vol. 1, Page]] 272 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. dead letter of the Bhashyas. The reason of this is that they alone, I am informed, have occasionally real Initiates at their head in their mathams, as for instance, in the "Sringa-giri," in the Western Ghats of Mysore. On the other hand, there is no sect in that desperately exclusive caste of the Brahmins, more exclusive than is the Smartava; and the reticence of its followers to say what they may know of the Occult sciences and the esoteric doctrine, is only equalled by their pride and learning. The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky -- Vol. 1, page 271-2 OCCULTISM IN THE UPANISHADS. 3. Quoting The Secret Doctrine: "The Logos, or both the unmanifested and the manifested WORD, is called by the Hindus, Iswara, "the Lord," though the Occultists give it another name. Iswara, say the Vedantins, is the highest consciousness in nature. "This highest consciousness," answer the Occultists, "is only a synthetic unit in the world of the manifested Logos -- or on the plane of illusion; for it is the sum total of Dhyan-Chohanic consciousnesses." "Oh, wise man, remove the conception that not-Spirit is Spirit," says Sankaracharya. Atma is not-Spirit in its final Parabrahmic state, Iswara or Logos is Spirit; or, as Occultism explains, it is a compound unity of manifested living Spirits, the parent-source and nursery of all the mundane and terrestrial monads, plus their divine reflection, which emanate from, and return into, the Logos, each in the culmination of its time. There are seven chief groups of such Dhyan Chohans, which groups will be found and recognised in every religion, for they are the primeval SEVEN Rays. Humanity, occultism teaches us, is divided into seven distinct groups and their sub-divisions, mental, spiritual, and physical.* The monad, then, viewed as ONE, is above the seventh principle (in Kosmos and man), and as a triad, it is the direct radiant progeny of the said compound UNIT, not the breath (and special creation out of nihil) of "God," as that unit is called; for such an idea is quite unphilosophical, and degrades Deity, dragging it down to a finite, attributive condition. As well expressed by the translator of the "Crest-Jewel of Wisdom" -- though Iswara is "God" "unchanged in the profoundest depths of pralayas and in the intensest activity of the manvantaras" . . ., still "beyond (him) is [[Footnote(s)]] ------------------------------------------------- * Hence the seven chief planets, the spheres of the indwelling seven spirits, under each of which is born one of the human groups which is guided and influenced thereby. There are only seven planets (specially connected with earth), and twelve houses, but the possible combinations of their aspects are countless. As each planet can stand to each of the others in twelve different aspects, their combinations must, therefore, be almost infinite; as infinite, in fact, as the spiritual, psychic, mental, and physical capacities in the numberless varieties of the genus homo, each of which varieties is born under one of the seven planets and one of the said countless planetary combinations. See Theosophist, for August, 1886." The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky -- Vol. 1, page 573 THE CREST-JEWEL OF WISDOM. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-3-11.htm Just try and compare this with later theosophy - and smell the - emotional-oriented - difference ! Did this help ? from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 12:48 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" > In a message dated 30/10/2003 12:12:49 GMT Standard Time, > global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: > > > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/at-az.htm > > Thank you for the link. I have been searching for this document a long time. > I knew it must exist somewhere and until your link I just could not find it. > > This is extremely helpful to me. > > Philotes II > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From samblo@cs.com Sat Nov 01 17:50:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16650 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 01:50:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 01:50:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 01:50:50 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.28.3f93a9ca (17228) for ; Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:50:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <28.3f93a9ca.2cd5bcf1@cs.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 20:50:41 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 8000 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Philotes, Thanks, happiness is assisting others, John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 02 06:41:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21733 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 14:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 14:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 14:41:22 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-15.look.ca ([216.154.45.110] helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGJPt-0000Hs-FH for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 14:41:21 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA516C1.4010205@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:37:53 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re "happiness is helping others" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter3.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn John wrote: <> I seem to recall at some point coming across words to the effect that one ought to love one's neighbour and hate one's enemy. I'm trying to figure out if that was attributed to Jesus by somebody. I have an excellent memory, but all too often it seems to be kind of short on particulars, for some reason, so for all I know, maybe Jesus never said anything like that. Aside from whatever contextual, broader meaning that comment from John might be seen to have, or "does have" or "might have" from John's point of view ... Anyway, that comment brought to mind that "love/hate" topic. Maybe somebody can correct me about it. At any rate, if one tends to go with "happiness is assisting others," (in general?), then one might wonder (as in my case) whether one ought to assist one's "friends" (however defined?) as well as one's "enemies" (however defined?)---ie, "assist" (possibly?) without (apparently?) all that much defining of "others" or "happiness" (apparently?) or ... So, for example, if one considers the case of RC Churchman Eugenio Pacelli and his associations with the Nazis during WW2, one might wonder about the nature of the "help" and "happiness" with respect to "others," that might be "seen to apply in his case" ... (not that I'm suggesting that John's "help," "happiness" and "others" to me seem somehow comparable to Pacelli's case in some way). I'm not suggesting anything much, just wonder about a few things. ^:-/ ... Mauri From bill_meredith@earthlink.net Sun Nov 02 09:36:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bill_meredith@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27948 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 17:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 17:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.188) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 17:36:49 -0000 Received: from 0-2pool111-142.nas1.albany1.ga.us.da.qwest.net ([65.142.111.142] helo=skate0w5w4rmsg) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGM9f-00062j-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 09:36:48 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c3a167$b4b637d0$8e6f8e41@skate0w5w4rmsg> To: References: <3FA516C1.4010205@idirect.ca> Subject: Re: Theos-World re "happiness is helping others" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 12:35:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-ELNK-Trace: aeda9581e82e22886a67a78112ff260e74bf435c0eb9d478446ad644c595755d71db1fffdb6899cab88f7b77eb1b818f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c From: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=131669976 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith Mauri, often I enjoy your meanderings. Sometimes I don't read them all the way through, but I still enjoy them none the less. While it is certainly possible to observe that having an attitude that "happiness is helping others" is nothing but a disguise for a self-centered conviction that one's personal happiness is somehow important in the great scheme of things, such an observation would not necessarily be true just because one uttered it aloud (or in print). In my experience, I have come to the conclusion that "wondering" in silence often brings me more "happiness" than public speculation. It seems to be different for you. That is good. Our differences may ultimately unite us. regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mauri" To: Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 9:37 AM Subject: Theos-World re "happiness is helping others" > John wrote: < assisting others, John>> > > I seem to recall at some point coming across > words to the effect that one ought to love > one's neighbour and hate one's enemy. I'm > trying to figure out if that was attributed > to Jesus by somebody. I have an excellent > memory, but all too often it seems to be kind > of short on particulars, for some reason, so > for all I know, maybe Jesus never said > anything like that. Aside from whatever > contextual, broader meaning that comment from > John might be seen to have, or "does have" or > "might have" from John's point of view ... > Anyway, that comment brought to mind that > "love/hate" topic. Maybe somebody can > correct me about it. At any rate, if one > tends to go with "happiness is assisting > others," (in general?), then one might wonder > (as in my case) whether one ought to assist > one's "friends" (however defined?) as well as > one's "enemies" (however defined?)---ie, > "assist" (possibly?) without (apparently?) > all that much defining of "others" or > "happiness" (apparently?) or ... So, for > example, if one considers the case of RC > Churchman Eugenio Pacelli and his > associations with the Nazis during WW2, one > might wonder about the nature of the "help" > and "happiness" with respect to "others," > that might be "seen to apply in his case" ... > (not that I'm suggesting that John's "help," > "happiness" and "others" to me seem somehow > comparable to Pacelli's case in some way). > I'm not suggesting anything much, just wonder > about a few things. > > ^:-/ ... > Mauri > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Nov 02 13:54:07 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18076 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 21:54:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 21:54:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 21:54:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2003 21:54:05 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 21:54:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000d01c3a0da$7b448a70$524ea450@khidr> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 685 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.81.202 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hallo all of you, > > > > My views are: > > 1. > The nearest exponent of the Esoteric philosophy "is the Vedanta as expounded > by the Advaita Vedantists," (Secret Doctrine, I, p. 55). (Bhagavad- Gita, W. > Q. Judge, p. 108) > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/ve-vz.htm That is an interesting comment in view of the fact that Blavartsky's system was objective dealism whereas Sankara's system wa ssubjective idealism. We have in other words a radical difference of opinion at the very core of the two systems. Blavatsky's theories are much closer to Kapila than to Sankara. From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Nov 02 13:55:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 3744 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 21:55:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 21:55:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 21:55:40 -0000 Received: from pool1168.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.34.148] helo=DALLAS) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGQBs-0000QM-00; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 13:55:20 -0800 To: Subject: Mediation Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:55:01 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c3a18b$fac75780$9422f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nov 2 2003 Re: Meditation - some thoughts about it Dear Friends: Re: Meditation -- Seeking for Truth -- Fantasy, Imagination -- Dear Friends: In several recent exchanges the question of mediation, attention, concentration, mind-control, argument, discussion, testimony, inference, etc.. have been used. The ancient sage Patanjali seems to offer us one of the best systems to consider and deal with these. One ought to procure Mr. Judge's rendition, or consult the "on line" version, and really try to figure out the meaning of the verses and recommendations made therein. [ www.Blavatsky.net ] Allow me to outline this as simply as I can: THEOSOPHY gives the ancient psychological divisions of man's consciousness as viewed in the ancient systems of Yoga (Union with the Divine) found as a record in the annals of Hindu psychology that extends back to Vedic times, and beyond that in "pre-Vedic bodhism" - lost in the night of time. This knowledge has always existed but is difficult for the average man to find, because he is attached to his personality and its many desires and fancies. He has to become passionless at least some times, in order to discover it. It is NOT outside him but within. "The Teacher can but point the way. The means to reach the Goal will vary with the pilgrims." {Voice of the Silence) The pupil or aspirant has to do the work, it cannot be bought, nor can a "Guru" do it for him. In The KEY TO THEOSOPHY these divisions of our "Mind" are explained in detail by HPB, and we ought to study those. That is perhaps the opening lesson. It is a work to discover ourselves. The next is to grasp the difference between the "passion wrapped Mind" ( Kama-Manas, and the WISE-MIND or Buddhi-Manas). To do this, one has to adopt the view that each human being (every one of us) is an Eternal Pilgrim. We cannot be "killed," although our bodies die or perish. Undying, we all reincarnate from cycle to cycle, and we remain in touch with our "near and dear." It is the one eternal process that all religions are based on, but which all systems of priestcraft have connived in hiding the meaning. We all, using body after body through reincarnation, are on our way to the SUPREME GOAL - UNIVERSAL WISDOM. This effort can be made quicker and the time shortened. The basis for our Individual consciousness is the spiritual MONAD ( Atma-Buddhi). This (the REAL "I") NEVER DIES. Patanjali calls "Yoga" CONCENTRATION; or, hindering the modifications of the mind which he calls the "thinking principle." He deals here with our usual "Lower Mind." Which is awake and serving us as a tool for thinking when we are "awake." The "modifications" are caused by desires, emotions, and passions. These enslave the mind if we let them. Lower-Mind is defined by THEOSOPHY as "Kama-Manas," or the mind (power to think) wrapped up in desires, passions and emotions. These make our views selfish, and we tend to isolate ourselves. We cease practicing universal brotherhood. We are all aware of this linkage (between the personal selfish mind, and the impersonal just and cooperative mind) , when we think about it detached from passions and desires we begin to see and sense the difference in orientation. Patanjali says that this "hindering" is to be done by the REAL MAN by using "exercise" and "dispassion." [The REAL MAN is superior to the "mind" and uses and directs it. The passions are detached from the "power to think." ] He speaks of the mind as dual: Lower (or embodied and selfish), and Higher (or spiritual, wise and ethical). [ H P B in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY explains this in detail.] He uses a five-fold division of these "modifications:" Correct Cognition Misconception Fancy Sleep Memory Proceeding he says: "EXERCISE" is the unrelaxed effort to keep the mind fixed on a single subject. To be able to do this takes time, effort and training. [The natural tendency of the mind is to wander. In the BHAGAVAD GITA, Krishna, the Guru who is teaching Arjuna, the pupil, says that the man who desires to meditate, should control the wandering mind: "collect it, bring it back, and place it upon the Spirit." ] "DISPASSION" is overcoming all of one's desires.-- It extends to an indifference exercised because one knows the nature of one's SOUL (Manas-mind) as distinguished from other things. "DISTINCT COGNITION" is a type of meditation in which 4 elements are known and used appropriately: 1. "Argument" -- the comparing of a thing with others, similarities and disparities. 2. "Deliberation" -- considers the origin of things and one's self, what is the field of action, what is the nature of the more subtle senses, what is Manas, and what is the cause of the dual Mind. These have to be understood before proceeding further. 3. "Beatitude" -- is the deliberate use of the Discriminative WISE mind ( Buddhi). Because Buddhi is immortal, it reviews the results of past experience over an immense period, and its wisdom consists in its past observation of the action of Karma as regards, not only itself, but of all other beings. It may therefore be referred to as the ETHICAL MIND -- which pre-views the effect of free-willed choices. It has the power to consider abstractions and metaphysics. In mankind it answers to the concepts we all have of the "Intuition," and to the "Voice of Conscience." 4. "Egoism" -- Is said to be the height of meditation, whereby no other subject is considered but the ONE INNER SELF -- which is to be seen as EQUALLY present in the "heart" of all creatures, without any exceptions. This attained, the power to revert to this consideration and to banish other thoughts from the field of the mind is possible. [Patanjali adds: that Faith (in ones' immortality), Power (to see and do all things), Intentness (or concentration upon a single subject), and discernment (or a discriminative knowledge of that which is to be learned and known) are precedent requirements.] This does not however include the CONSCIOUSNESS of the ABSOLUTE. "ABSTRACT MEDITATION" is promoted by devotion to the SUPREME SPIRIT -- which can be considered in its manifested form as "ISHWARA" -- the HIGHER SELF -- the "spiritual person." This is the "Krishna," or the "Christos," within each human being, as well as latent in every form in nature and the universe. The term "Ishwara" is used to denote that omniscience which is universally present as a "germ" in all beings and in each human. It is the omnipresence of Spirit. In Man it is his HIGHER SELF, and this Higher Self is the Divine tutor, the PRECEPTOR within. The unity of all HIGHER SELVES is symbolized by the "Central Spiritual SUN." We will find that Sri Krishna in The BHAGAVAD GITA teaches this to Arjuna under all circumstances. He says: "Do that which is DUTY, which is always just and fair, without considering (or anticipating) the results." On the negative side, Patanjali enumerates the obstacles that are encountered by the devotee who seeks to make meditation his friend and assistant. These are: Sickness Languor (inertia) Doubt Carelessness Laziness Addiction of objects of sense Erroneous Perception Failure to attain any stage of Abstraction Instability (wavering uncertainty) To prevent these, a single TRUTH needs to be continually dwelt on: the ONE SPIRIT is present universally and is at the heart of all beings. This is Universal Brotherhood. It is extended to all beings, as also, to all humans. We are in this UNIVERSE a totally living Whole. Each part is important and fulfills a necessary function. We all progress together. TO PURIFY ONE'S MIND, HE RECOMMENDS ADOPTING BENEVOLENCE, COMPASSION, GENTLENESS, A GIVING UP OF ANY TENDENCY OR DESIRE FOR PERSONAL HAPPINESS OR PERSONAL BLISS, DISPASSION, TO AVOID PERSONAL GRIEF, TO ADOPT ALL VIRTUES, AND TO SHUN EVERY VICE AS THOUGH IT WERE A DEADLY POISON. When the disciples' mind becomes steady and controlled it may extend from the "Atomic" to the "Infinite." (from the minute to the infinite.) Any subject (or object) considered, then reveals itself in full. The subtle nature of any selected object is seen to merge into "primordial matter" (or Mulaprakriti -- root-matter, also denominated MAHA-BUDDHI -- universal wisdom, REALITY and FACT). This union with the divine does not obliterate the consciousness that is ours. A drop of ocean water has all the qualities of the OCEAN. It is made up of billions of atoms. When dropped back into the sea, it reunites with all other drops and atoms and rebecomes balanced with those; but IT NEVER LOOSES ITS OWN IDENTITY. All Mahatmas, Arhats, Rishis, Yogis, Adepts, etc. are like the "drops" that have become WISE through their own efforts. But they never loose their own IDENTITY; and, like Sri Krishna, they continue to work in the world, and with Humanity. When WISDOM is reached there is spiritual clarity, and the "Third Eye" of SPIRITUAL discernment activates. In such a case "Knowledge" is freed of any error due to material limitations, or the general karmic debts of humanity. This kind of knowledge differs from that which is either "argumentative" of "non-argumentative," it is not due to either testimony or to inference. It is "direct perception." The mind is enabled "to look directly upon ideas." Once the Real Man attains this condition the train of "self-reproductive thought" may be stopped. In such a case it is said that meditation becomes "without a seed." -- because the material base disappears, and the TRUTH is apparent. One of the propositions made here is to assume that at THE BASE OF MEDITATION THE MOTIVE IS PURE -- that the search is for TRUTH alone. Should however, any bias, desire, or preconceived result, be allowed to color the meditative process, the results, though partial, will be distorted and colored by that basic bias. This touchstone is to be applied universality in space, impersonality in motive, and punctuality in time. I hope this may prove to be of use. Best wishes, Dallas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 02 14:06:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40582 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 22:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 22:06:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 22:06:02 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-05-26.look.ca ([216.154.45.217] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGQMA-0008Rl-8V for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:05:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3FA57F02.9070709@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:02:42 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re to Bill Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter1.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Bill wrote: <> Me too about yours likewise, Bill. In keeping with my attempts to turn over some kind of new leaf, or "new enough" leaf, I think I'll resist the tempation to meander on some more (for a switch!) about those two sentences from you. (Pretty soon, if I keep this up ... Well, at least I'm optimistic, eh, sort of ... ^:-). << While it is certainly possible to observe that having an attitude that "happiness is helping others" is nothing but a disguise for a self-centered conviction that one's personal happiness is somehow important in the great scheme of things, such an observation would not necessarily be true just because one uttered it aloud (or in print).>> Seems like a relevant enough point, there, Bill (!), which I think I might've had in mind (if rather speculatively/meanderingly, possibly) while meanderizing my speculations for my last post. Maybe I should've added another qualifier last time around about those kinds of concerns. On the other hand, as you might know, seeing as it has been kindly suggested that I have a tendency to use "excessive" qualifiers, as is (among other things) ... That is, I'll try not to meanderize and qualify about that kind of thing "too much." (Sorry, I seem to have trouble not using those qualifying quotes every so often. Maybe you know of a good shrink, Bill ...) ^:-/ <> Privately (and even "pulically," sort of, I guess, seeing as I might be seen as trying to participate in a somewhat public discussion here ...) I wonder, meanderize, speculate (even "think," apparently, strangely enough ...) about the topic of (among other things) where one might tend to draw some kind of defining line between one's "private" and "public" wonderings, meanderings, scientizings, speculations, thought processes and whatever else during the "more formative stages" of one's offerings for these lists (ie, not that I'm saying to you, Bill, that you were necessarily referring to "public/private" in some kind of "more specific" list-related context, apparently, possibly; although ... ^:-/ ... )... I guess we all tend to have our own sense of what should and shouldn't be discussed on these lists and elsewhere, whether we call that sense "private" or "public" "more specifically" in whatever sense. ^:-/ ... Mauri From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 02 14:19:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49316 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 22:19:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 22:19:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 22:19:30 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-18.look.ca ([216.154.45.113] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGQZF-0003ne-4Y for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 22:19:29 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA5822D.9020607@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 17:16:13 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re "objective and subjective idealism" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter2.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Thu Jun 5 09:58:17 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Steve wrote: <> Steve, I wonder if by "ojective idealism" and "subjective idealism" you might've been referring to (what might be seen as?) somewhat basic differences between Zen and Theosophy ... From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 02 15:07:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60434 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 23:07:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 23:07:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 23:07:13 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E5B4B26292B for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:07:07 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005801c3a196$0a9b92c0$524ea450@khidr> To: References: Subject: Re: The Non-dual- Master "garment" of synthesis Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:07:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Steve and all of you, My views are: An Interesting view you offer Steve. But according to me - Blavatskys view was a true theosophical one. And if one reads her writings carefully one will realise, that she is just as interested in Shankara as she is in Kapila - but she is in a theosophical manner (not using dead-letter reading - or exoteric interpretations - of any "objectivé" labelling kind) - having a heart on all the 6 Indian Schools of philosophy - and calling Theosophy the synthesis of them. (To the Sai Baba interested readers: Sai Baba has the same view. They all teach spiritual wisdom - although the texts are now old - he says. --- So is Sai Baba really a Theosophist - with a reputation similar to a certain "liberal-christian-church now dead theosophist", just because he has said that he is the Avatar of the Age ??? --- Well, only YOU can make the answer - for yóurself. We shall now all persons on their spiritual fruits - also readers of these sentences.) And as I said before in my previous email - Vedanta is not for everyone to learn - where they are right now in their lifes. 1. First a quote confirming that claim of mine. But remember, that the methaphysical key is the 4th of the seven keys. And that the geometrical key is the 5th. of the seven - according to Blavatsky. The 5th, 6th and 7th berlongs to the inititates. The 4th have to be known before the others are revealed. (The reader could meditate a while on that.) I quote The Secret Doctrine --- [[Vol. 1, Page]] 269 THE FIRST CHAPTER OF CREATION. --- SUMMING UP. "As a whole, neither the foregoing nor what follows can be found in full anywhere. It is not taught in any of the six Indian schools of philosophy, for it pertains to their synthesis -- the seventh, which is the Occult doctrine. It is not traced on any crumbling papyrus of Egypt, nor is it any longer graven on Assyrian tile or granite wall. The Books of the Vedanta (the last word of human knowledge) give out but the metaphysical aspect of this world-Cosmogony; and their priceless thesaurus, the Upanishads -- Upa-ni-shad being a compound word meaning "the conquest of ignorance by the revelation of secret, spiritual knowledge" -- require now the additional possession of a Master-key to enable the student to get at their full meaning. The reason for this I venture to state here as I learned it from a Master. The name, "Upanishads," is usually translated "esoteric doctrine." These treatises form part of the Sruti or "revealed knowledge," Revelation, in short, and are generally attached to the Brahmana ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- [[Vol. 1, Page]] 270 THE SECRET DOCTRINE. portion of the Vedas,* as their third division. There are over 150 Upanishads enumerated by, and known to, Orientalists, who credit the oldest with being written probably about 600 years B.C.; but of genuine texts there does not exist a fifth of the number. The Upanishads are to the Vedas what the Kabala is to the Jewish Bible. They treat of and expound the secret and mystic meaning of the Vedic texts. They speak of the origin of the Universe, the nature of Deity, and of Spirit and Soul, as also of the metaphysical connection of mind and matter. In a few words: They CONTAIN the beginning and the end of all human knowledge, but they have now ceased to REVEAL it, since the day of Buddha. If it were otherwise, the Upanishads could not be called esoteric, since they are now openly attached to the Sacred Brahmanical books, which have, in our present age, become accessible even to the Mlechchhas (out-castes) and the European Orientalists. One thing in them -- and this in all the Upanishads -- invariably and constantly points to their ancient origin, and proves (a) that they were written, in some of their portions, before the caste system became the tyrannical institution which it still is; and (b) that half of their contents have been eliminated, while some of them were rewritten and abridged. "The great Teachers of the higher Knowledge and the Brahmans are continually represented as going to Kshatriya (military caste) kings to become their pupils." As Cowell pertinently remarks, the Upanishads "breathe an entirely different spirit" (from other Brahmanical writings), "a freedom of thought unknown in any earlier work except in the Rig Veda hymns themselves." The second fact is explained by a tradition recorded in one of the MSS. on Buddha's life. It says that the Upanishads were originally attached to their Brahmanas after the beginning of a reform, which led to the exclusiveness of the present caste system among the Brahmins, a few centuries after the invasion of India by the "twice-born." They were complete in those days, and were used for the instruction of the chelas who were preparing for their initiation. " So I will safely say that the Upanishads --- which Blavatsky calls the "esoteric doctrine" is the methaphysicall version of the so ever sacret book the esoteric Kiu-ti on the World-Cosmonogy. But a master-key is needed to arrive at full understanding. - Agreed ? And as stated in my previous email. Blavatsky said, that some of the monasteries problably had some of the secret texts by Shankara in their possesion. It is also a fact, that Trevor Leggett has in around 1981 translated to english a released text (as late as app. 1952) - where Shankara comments on the Patanjali Yoga-Sutras. And Shankara finds no problems with this teaching in his commentary. 2. In one of her correspondances/articles named WHAT SHALL WE DO FOR OUR FELLOW-MEN? - 1889 Article by H. P. Blavatsky - she states the following : "Yet in the esotericism of the Upanishads, when correctly understood, and our esotericism, there will not be found much difference. Nor have I ever disputed any of the facts about Buddha as now brought forward; although these are facts from only his exoteric biography. Nor has he invented or drawn from his inner consciousness the philosophy he taught, but only the method of his rendering it. Buddhism being simply esoteric Bodhism taught before him secretly in the arcana of the Brahminical temples, contains, of course, more than one doctrine of which the Lord Buddha never spoke of in public. But this shows in no way that he did not teach them to his Arhats. Again, between "attachment to worldly views or interests" and the study of Cosmology, which is not "a worldly science" however, there is an abyss. One pertains to religious and philosophical asceticism, the other is necessary for the study of Occultism--which is not Buddhistic, but universal. Without the study of cosmogony and theogony which teach the hidden value of every force in Nature and their direct correspondence to, and relation with, the forces in man (or the principles) no occult psychophysics or knowledge of man as he truly is, is possible. No one is forced to study esoteric philosophy unless he likes it, nor has anyone ever confused Occultism with Buddhism or Vedantism.--H.P.B." http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/WhatShallWeDoForOurFellowMen.htm And my view is here in agreement with Blavatsky. Theosophy proper is not Buddhism alone - and nor the vedanta teachings of the Upanishads. 3. OCCULTISM VERSUS THE OCCULT ARTS - Article by H. P. Blavatsky - 1888. "There are four (out of the many other) names of the various kinds of Esoteric Knowledge or Sciences given, even in the esoteric Purânas. There is (1) Yajna-Vidya,1 knowledge of the occult powers awakened in Nature by the performance of certain religious ceremonies and rites. (2) Maha-vidya, the "great knowledge," the magic of the Kabalists and of the Tantrika worship, often Sorcery of the worst description. (3) Guhya-Vidya, knowledge of the mystic powers residing in Sound (Ether), hence in the Mantras (chanted prayers or incantations) and depending on the rhythm and melody used; in other words a magical performance based on Knowledge of the Forces of Nature and their correlation; and (4) ATMA-VIDYA, a term which is translated simply "knowledge of the Soul," true Wisdom by the Orientalists, but which means far more. This last is the only kind of Occultism that any theosophist who admires Light on the Path, and who would be wise and unselfish, ought to strive after. All the rest is some branch of the "Occult Sciences," i.e., arts based on the knowledge of the ultimate essence of all things in the Kingdoms of Nature--such as minerals, plants and animals--hence of things pertaining to the realm of material nature, however invisible that essence may be, and howsoever much it has hitherto eluded the grasp of Science. Alchemy, Astrology, Occult Physiology, Chiromancy, exist in Nature and the exact Sciences--perhaps so called, because they are found in this age of paradoxical philosophies the reverse--have already discovered not a few of the secrets of the above arts. But clairvoyance, symbolised in India as the "Eye of Siva," called in Japan, "Infinite Vision," is not Hypnotism, the illegitimate son of Mesmerism, and is not to be acquired by such arts. All the others may be mastered and results obtained, whether good, bad or indifferent; but Atma-Vidya sets small value on them. It includes them all and may even use them occasionally, but it does so after purifying them of their dross, for beneficent purposes, and taking care to deprive them of every element of selfish motive." http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/OccultismVersusTheOccultArts.htm 4. Actually If you try the index of The Secret Doctrine you will get a different view on who is most popular of Kapila and Shankara. Try these links: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd-index/dx-sa.htm ( index on Shankararchya) http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd-index/dx-ka-kd.htm ( index on Kapila) 5. True theosophy is in fact not described using labels. --- Theosophy is truth without form. --- Let us remmeber this. A few philosophical words: "Philosophy that cannot be understood, scriptures that are not practiced - the present world has plenty of these - it is a waste to talk of them." "The Teacher and the taught together produce the teachings." So Blavatskys teachings are rather complex. Life has learned me, that Atma-Vidya as taught by Shankara is allright, - and there are other paths as well. But it is true: Atma=Brahman Bhagavad Gita is another good example on the force there is behind the Upanishads ! from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "stevestubbs" To: Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: re Jesus, Pistis Sophia, "garment" > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" theosophy@a...> wrote: > > Hallo all of you, > > > > > > > > My views are: > > > > 1. > > The nearest exponent of the Esoteric philosophy "is the Vedanta as > expounded > > by the Advaita Vedantists," (Secret Doctrine, I, p. 55). (Bhagavad- > Gita, W. > > Q. Judge, p. 108) > > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/ve-vz.htm > > That is an interesting comment in view of the fact that Blavartsky's > system was objective dealism whereas Sankara's system wa ssubjective > idealism. We have in other words a radical difference of opinion at > the very core of the two systems. Blavatsky's theories are much > closer to Kapila than to Sankara. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 02 15:30:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54544 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2003 23:30:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2003 23:30:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2003 23:30:04 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DE2E547FFC4 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:30:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> To: Subject: The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 00:29:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo all of you, Maybe some of you can help me out. Even the speculating ones who scratches their heads of could have a view. A huge smile morphs the Sufilight face... What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? Does anyone know that ? Sai Baba resembles Khidr alarmingly much. And maybe it is so that Sai Baba really is Khidr ! Have you ever considered that ? Rethink that one - and live with your ignorance ---- if you have one, that is. There is always a lot of rumours both good and bad surrounding figures like Khidr and High Intitates. They have often be said to be intoxicated by either crazyness or by high spirituality. Views has often been divided on who they really are. The same can be said about Sai Baba. And so it also was when Jesus Christ walked the planet. (And he did !) Khidr is doing, what the ordinary Seeker doesn't understand. So does Sai Baba it is said. Khidr are also very often displaying - an extraordinary behaviour and spiritual forces. So does Sai Baba it is said. Khidr is said to be able to be at more than one location at the same time. So does Sai Baba it is said. Khidr is said to be able to materialize or dematerialize himself at will. Sai Baba is said to have done that. Khidr is also capeable of shifting his body's form. So it is said Sai Baba has done. He turned blue once looking like Krishna it is said. Khidr is also said to be a great Healer. So it is said Sai Baba is. Khidr is the Master of the Masters. I have heard clairvoyant teachers here in Denmark confess, that Sai Babas aura reaches - at least several kilometres in size. Khidr has an extraordinary level of knowledge. So it is said Sai Baba has. Khidr talks any language. So it is said Sai Baba can - at least several languages. (Dutch, Hindi, Telegu, English and others) Khidr is said to be master of time and space. So it is said Sai Baba is. So according to me Sai Baba is doing a - shall we say - good job in copying Khidr - the so ever mysterious Green Guide. Other though says he is only a fourth inititate - who has failed in carrying out his mission. Others calls him a trickster. And others don't know about him at all - and won't hear any talk about him. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... from M. Sufilight with peace and love... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Sun Nov 02 18:03:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 589 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 02:03:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 02:03:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 02:03:57 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.a3.4b5e6092 (3874) for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2003 21:03:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 21:03:45 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re "happiness is helping others" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10503 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mauri, Well, I think I stated a lower harmonic of the ultimate choice which is presented the Bodhisatva's, Mahatma's and aspiring Budha's, namely "Service to mankind" and foregoing the Nirvana to stay in the river of life on the Earth. I only meant to communicate my personal satisfaction when some action I took benefited another in a way that was realized as a positive action by them. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Nov 02 18:11:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 28178 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 02:11:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 02:11:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.226) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 02:11:17 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by cardinal.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGUBW-000479-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:11:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 21:12:35 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> In-Reply-To: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? > Does anyone know that ? Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, fraud, and probably a murderer. Bart From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 02 20:34:08 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 417 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 04:34:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 04:34:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 04:34:06 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-20.look.ca ([216.154.45.115] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGWPk-0004Ei-FT for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 04:34:04 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA5D9F8.7050300@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 23:30:48 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re John and qualifiers and whatever ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter4.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Thu Jun 5 09:58:17 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn John wrote: <> Okay I confess that I admire the way you and so many people don't seem to get hooked into so many qualifiers that ... For a change, and in keeping with my attempt to turn over some kind of newish leaf, I think I'll resist the temptation to offer you more qualifiers today, except that: one of these days, when I grow up ... ^:-/ ... Mauri From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Nov 02 20:46:36 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20954 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 04:46:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 04:46:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gozer.look.ca) (207.136.80.10) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 04:46:35 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-36.look.ca ([216.154.45.131] helo=idirect.ca) by gozer.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGWbp-0000p8-HZ for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 04:46:33 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA5DCE5.60407@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 23:43:17 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re "speculating ones who scratches" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter3.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Morten wrote: <> Now you tell me in the middle of my attmpts to turn over some kind of less meandering, less confusing, less circular new leaf. Gee. Thanks for that, but ... ^:-/ ... Besides, it's too late in the day. I'm all tuckered out and scratched out for the day. ZZZZZZ Mauri From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Nov 02 23:54:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91144 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 07:54:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 07:54:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 07:54:32 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id BBFCC5EE1AF for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:54:31 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 08:54:23 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Bart and all of you, My views are: So you KNOW that Bart ? And what does that make you ? (Now the readers will understand, that Bart problably will gave great difficulties in giving an honest answer to this last question.) from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 3:12 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? > > Does anyone know that ? > > Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, > fraud, and probably a murderer. > > Bart > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 03 00:32:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26097 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 08:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 08:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 08:32:03 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0247E5EE284 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:32:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005401c3a1e4$efa96f60$524ea450@khidr> To: Subject: Nasrudin tales...part 1 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:31:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo everyone, Here are a few stories about the notorius Mulla Nasrudin. Nasrudin being a special character from the Middle Eastern parts of this physical Planet. Mulla (i.e. Master) Nasrudin - sometimes seen together with Khidr - is the classical figure devised by the initiates partly for the purpose of halting for a moment situations in which certain states of mind are made clear. The Nasrudin stories, known throughout the Middle East, constitute (in the manuscript The Subtleties of the Incomparable Nasrudin) on of the strangest achievements in the history of metaphysics. Superficially, most of the Nasrudin stories may be used as jokes. They are told and retold endlessly in the teahouses and the caravansarais, in the homes and on the radio waves, of Asia. But it is in herent in the Nasrudin story that it may be understood at any one of many depths. There is the joke, the moral - and the little extra which brings the consciousness of the potential mystic a little further on the way to realization. Nobody really knows who Nasrudin was, where he lived, or when. This is truely in character, for the whole intention is to provide a figure who cannot really be characterized, and who is timeless. It is the MESSAGE, and NOT the man, which is important to the Theosophists or the Sufis, because they KNOW. This has not prevented people from providing him with spurious history, and even at tomb! Scholars, against whose pedantry in his stories Nasrudin frequently emerges triumphant, have even tried to take his - Subtleties - to pieces in the hope of finding appropiate biographical material. If we look at some of the classical Nasrudin stories in as detached a way as possible, we soon find that the wholly scholastic approach is the last one that the Theosophist or Sufi will allow (think about Blavatsky): Nasrudin ferying a pedant across a piece of rough water, said something ungrammatical to him. "Have you never studied grammar?" asked the scholar. "No." "Then half of your life has been wasted." A few minutes later Nasrudin turned tot he passenger. "Have you ever learned how to SWIM?" "No. Why?" "Then ALL your life is wasted - we are sinking!" This is the emphasis upon Theosophy or Sufism as a practical activity, denying that the formal intellect can arrive at TRUTH, and that pattern-thinking derived from the familiar world can be applied to TRUE reality, which moves in another dimension. This is brought out even more forcefully in a - wry - tale set in a teahouse; a Theosophical term for a meeting place of Theosophists. A monk enters and states: "My master taught me to spread the word that mankind will never be fullfilled until the man who has NOT been wronged is as indignant about a wrong as the man who actually HAS been wronged." The assembly is momentarily impressed. Then Nasrudin speaks: "My Master taught ME that nobody at all should become indignant about anything until he is sure that what he thinks is a wrong is in fact a wrong - and not a blessing in disguise!" (Now, where is my friend Bart ? ---- Smile.) from M. Sufilight with some swimming Nasrudin tombs...and a smile... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 03 06:21:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 3803 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 14:21:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 14:21:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gatekeeper.look.ca) (207.136.80.8) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 14:21:14 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-04-44.look.ca ([216.154.45.187] helo=idirect.ca) by gatekeeper.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGfZr-0007TI-8M for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:21:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA66382.7020902@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 09:17:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re to Morten Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter4.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.4 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Morten wrote: <> No idea. Don't know anything about Khidr and don't really-enough know much about SB either and I don't seem to really-enough know much about anything much, so ... ^:-/ ... From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 03 06:51:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61678 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 14:51:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 14:51:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 14:51:12 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id C18AF5EE226 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:51:08 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <003101c3a219$e6ef7240$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <3FA66382.7020902@idirect.ca> Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Morten Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 15:51:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Mauri, My views are: The manner in which certain theosophical systems operate requires, that the interested Seekers after Truth and Wisdom study a system, which enables them to learn how to learn. Or how to remove ignorance (as promoted by Shankara and others). When one reaches a certain level of understanding of such a system, one quite often NOT need to speculate any more. Isn't that great ? If course there is a downside. One will be at risk of losing ones - speculating image. But, that can't be that much worth, at least not when compared to non-speculating wisdom. Properly absorbed Theosophy is such a system as it was promoted by Blavatsky. Patience is required if one is ignorant. And study is important at first. Using, Books are not the only means by which such a study might take place. Try eventually also my next email. These are just my views... from M. Sufilight with peace and love...and some notorious scratches... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mauri" To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 3:17 PM Subject: Theos-World re to Morten > Morten wrote: < me out. Even the speculating ones who > scratches their heads of could have a view. > What is the difference between Sathya Sai > Baba and Khidr ? Does anyone know that ?>> > > No idea. Don't know anything about Khidr > and don't really-enough know much about SB > either and I don't seem to really-enough know > much about anything much, so ... ^:-/ ... > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 03 07:07:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99564 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 15:07:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 15:07:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 15:07:53 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 63EE1262A9C for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:07:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000d01c3a21c$3b04cc20$524ea450@khidr> To: Subject: Meetings and coming togehter...and a key Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:07:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo everyone, The following could be reflected and contemplated on. It in fact among other issues deals with the coming together here at our forum. Meetings or Coming together A question was posed: What is the harmonisation of a community or a group through what is called the 'Coming-Together' method ? The may very well be different answer to scuh a question. The following is a short version of what the answer could be. The Kernel of the visible aspect called 'Theosophy' is the basic human unit: the members meet together and carry on the studies prescribed for them by a contemporary Teacher. This is necessary to the realisation which comes from being a Theosophist. It may be called community, communion, meeting. It is unimportant what it is called, what is important is to see how every form of human search which later becomes a system, a 'religion', or an enterprise of any kind, originally depends upon this coming-together. It is often called JAM - coming together: pronounced as if to rhyme with 'hum'. Meeting for worship, teamwork of all kinds, learning in groups, all are derivations and usally diluted ones, of this basic factor. It is the Theosophists, the real Theosophists, who preserve the original means of operating in this JAM. As time passes, in ordinary communities without special safeguards, the working of this coming-together becomes less and less effective, more and more formalised or generalised, until the JAM no longer exists. What takes its place is social 'togetherness', or emotional enthusiasm, intellectual stimulations or conditioned response to being in a collection of people. No higher attainment is possible to man unless the circumstances of the coming-together are correct; unless it is a communion including the right people, at the right time, in the right place. Impatience, ignorance, sentimentality, intellectualism tend to cause people to convert the true 'JAM' situation until it becomes something else. This essential knowledge has always existed amongst humanity, and continous to exist. But superficial and in general popularised thinking have obscured the real working of this coming-together, until people can only see innumerable forms of deteriorated 'JAM' - which they accept or reject according to whether they seem attractive, plausible or 'true'. It may often be impossible to re-form a degenerated coming-togehter community. It will then be possible to regenerate it only by breaking old habit-patterns and regrouping poeple who can really be harmonised. This may cause a very different - and perhaps unacceptable - appearance of the whole effort to those who have become accustomed to a false situation. The selection of participants on the basis of their capacity and not their assumed importance always causes discontent in those who have lost the power to adapt. This kind of lack of flexibility is, in turn, an inevitable characteristic of people and groups which have been running on automatistic patterns and which need revivifying. It is an evident fact that true communities and organisations 'run down' and develop peculiarites other than were present in their origins. They may do this because of the ascendancy of undesirable characteristics in the participants, or because there is a widespread tendency for people and groups to attempt to stabilise themselves by using the nearest availbale organisation, irrespective of whether this kind of stabilisation loses more than it gains. This is the major perennial reason for the cyclic emergence of living teachers. It is the alone who can restore harmony and balance in circles and individuals which have sacrificed these things in the search for continuity and reassurance in the hope of stabilisation. Were it possible to attain the object in a systematised way, the means to do so would have been enunciated and recorded many thousand years ago: just as the laws of ordinary material stability and performance are recorded and employed in physics or in applied arts. The reactions of an audience to the efforts of a real teacher to redress the balance of an organisation are always predictable. They will include despair, confusion, desire for stimulus, fear that something might be taken away, rejection, and a desire to accept in order to profit by the ' new pahse'. There are today two main kinds of communities: one, the community produced and maintained by what is today called indoctrination; the other, the one accumulated and harmonised by starting with the right materials and the right knowledge. The situation with regard to the understanding of the subtler potential of the group and its finer tuning has its anlogy in the following: Some are but children on the Path, they drink of the milk of what they call their Holy Book, in its literal sense. And those who have reached maturity have a seperate perception and another understanding, that of the inward significance of the so-called Holy Book. We aught as Seekers after Truth and wisdom always be concerned with the issue of time, place and people. Being at the right place, at the right time together with the right people is of importance. Yet, this is the problem of the beginner Seekers after Wisdom and Truth. They often do not know where to look when they are seeking enlightenment. As a result, it is hardly surprising that they may attach themselves to any cult, immerse themselves in all manner of theories, really believeing that they have the capacity to distinguish the true from the false. And often they also refuse to face the fact, that this is what they are doing. As if this could elevate their situation Nasrudin the notorious trickster - taught - this in several ways. On one ocassion a neighbor found him down on his knees looking for something. "What er you looking for, Nasrudin?" "My key," said Nasrudin. After a few minutes of searching, the other man said, "Where did you drop it?". "At home." "Then why, for heaven's sake, are you looking here?" "There is more light here." This is one of the most famous of all Nasrudin tales, used by many Theosophists, commenting upon people who seek exotic sources for enlightenment. The mechanism of rationalization is one which effectively bars the deepening of perception. The Theosophical impact may often be wasted because the individual will not properly absorb it. In the development of the human mind, there is a constant change and linit to the usefulness of any particular technique. This characteristic of Theosophical practise is ignored in prepetitious systems, which condition the mind and create an atmosphere of attainment or nearness to attainment, without actually producing it. Feel free to agree or disagree...we can only do our best. from M: Sufilight with peace and love... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 03 11:35:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49297 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 19:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 19:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 19:35:29 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGkU5-0001V8-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 11:35:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 14:36:47 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> In-Reply-To: <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > My views are: > So you KNOW that Bart ? > And what does that make you ? Yes, I know that. And that makes me someone who is trying to save others from being led down a path fed by the selfishness of an individual, thinking that they are moving down a path towards evolution. Of course, evolution is possible by being conned, once one realizes it, but how many people here would rather learn things the hard way than the easy way. > (Now the readers will understand, that Bart problably will gave great > difficulties in giving an honest answer to this last question.) That comes dangerously close to a personal attack. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bart Lidofsky" >>Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: >> >>>What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? >>>Does anyone know that ? >> >>Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, >>fraud, and probably a murderer. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 03 11:50:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54553 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 19:50:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 19:50:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 19:50:50 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 101335EE0F9 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:50:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 20:50:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Bart and all of you, My views are: Bart there is no - personal attack here except yours on Sai Baba. An attack which is baseless for the time being ! It is just like Germany invading Polen during WWII - and then asking who started it all ? But Bart if you truely KNOWS, what you say - and you just don't ASSUME it instead, you must in fact be on a HIGHER level of consciousness than Sathya Sai Baba (which teachings are quite differerntly - if one compares them with your views on him as being a fraud etc...). Agreed ? If so, I think, that this is a false claim comming from you Bart. I think we shall know each human being on their spiritual emanation of FRUITS and not on their level of prejudice alone - or the rumours surrounding them. Fact is not the same as assumptions. If I for certain quite inthinkable reason - should be mistaken - it is a great moment we are arriving at here at Theos-Talk. So what is your spiritual emanation of FRUITS - Bart ?¨ Verbal or mental melon-monsters ? If we should follow our assumptions all the time, - the mass-medias would have a ball of tremendous proportions. And they already have that, - maybe thanks to short comments similar to yours. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > My views are: > > So you KNOW that Bart ? > > And what does that make you ? > > Yes, I know that. And that makes me someone who is trying to save > others from being led down a path fed by the selfishness of an > individual, thinking that they are moving down a path towards evolution. > Of course, evolution is possible by being conned, once one realizes it, > but how many people here would rather learn things the hard way than the > easy way. > > > (Now the readers will understand, that Bart problably will gave great > > difficulties in giving an honest answer to this last question.) > > That comes dangerously close to a personal attack. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > >>Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > >> > >>>What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? > >>>Does anyone know that ? > >> > >>Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, > >>fraud, and probably a murderer. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Nov 03 12:13:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95558 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 20:13:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 20:13:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 20:13:22 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AGl4k-0004o9-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Nov 2003 12:13:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA6B733.5010807@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 15:14:43 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> In-Reply-To: <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > Bart there is no - personal attack here except yours on Sai Baba. An attack > which is baseless for the time being ! Blackmailer: I have seen the testimony of many members who, as his followers, were required to confess their past misdeeds to him, and, when they wanted to leave, were told that he would make the recordings of those confessions public (and did). Fraud: I've seen the videotapes, including one where his assistant handed him the gold to be materialized with the wrong hand, the one facing the camera. Probably a murderer: When the videotape specifically mentioned above was made public, the assistant who fouled up the hand-off was found murdered. No other motive for this murder has been found. Bart From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Nov 03 12:42:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52207 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2003 20:42:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2003 20:42:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2003 20:42:44 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 7471848004D for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:42:27 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000901c3a24a$ff198cd0$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6B733.5010807@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 21:42:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Bart and all of you, My views are given in the below using ***. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > Bart there is no - personal attack here except yours on Sai Baba. An attack > > which is baseless for the time being ! > > Blackmailer: I have seen the testimony of many members who, as his > followers, were required to confess their past misdeeds to him, and, > when they wanted to leave, were told that he would make the recordings > of those confessions public (and did). *** I have also seen and read many of their accusations. - But fair aught to be fair. Is their accusations just as good as valid truth ? Another view is, that it is easy to throw dirt upon a single person in a world of massmedias - if Karma permits you to do it. Just give me - one clue to how Sai Baba's behaviour in the matter we exchange on - can be said to be suspicious --- anyone ? For God's and ParaBrahman's sake - the little fellow Baba teaches spiritual theosophy - with the Heart at Bhagavad Gita ! And he is acting quite extraordinary - isn't he ? If he has been fumbling - well then he has, but is it really that likely and can it be prooven - and not only assumed about, that is what I ask ? I think it is a wrong to use their assumptions or claims as a valid proof Bart - and it is certainly not a theosophical proof. If we go back in time and point out the different great spiritual personalities in the past, you will experience - rumours of different kinds surrounding them as well. This case Sai Baba is another - but special one, because he claims to be the Avatar of the Age. *** > > Fraud: I've seen the videotapes, including one where his assistant > handed him the gold to be materialized with the wrong hand, the one > facing the camera. *** Videotapes can be tapered with. And Khidr sometimes - deliberately makes what is unexpected to help those who needs a scapegoat - to get one. Maybe Sai Baba did that as well ? I just ask. Because my own view is that he did - but it is only a view, which I am basing on a not so solid rock. Maybe it is the disbelievers or better the ignorants who are most need of help ? - You could consider that. *** > > Probably a murderer: When the videotape specifically mentioned above was > made public, the assistant who fouled up the hand-off was found > murdered. No other motive for this murder has been found. *** Give up Bart. >:-) A man who uses as his message the word: LOVE, --- is he the most likely suspect ? Maybe NSA or Mossad wasted the poor fellow, because Sai Baba was a treath to their ideologies ? As they say in the movies: Pick up the most likely suspects. (I.e. The known agressors !) But allright - you use the word: "Problably". Come on Bart - if you can honesly tell me that your evaluation of Sai Baba is fair, - then we can reach an agreement. So far I conclude, that you havn't. This exchange of words i not helping the forum very much. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... *** > > Bart > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Nov 03 19:16:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31289 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 03:16:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 03:16:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 03:16:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2003 03:16:22 -0000 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 03:16:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Chain Letter Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 408 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.89.60 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs This is one of those obnoxious chain letters but I thought I would pass it on anyway. Enjoy. >If God brings you to it, >He will bring you through it. >Happy moments, praise God. >Difficult moments, seek God. >Quiet moments, worship God. >Painful moments, trust God. >Every moment, thank God. > >Pass this message to seven people except you and me. You will receive >a miracle tomorrow ( just do it ). From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Nov 03 20:06:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81679 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 04:06:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 04:06:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 04:06:53 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-01-36.look.ca ([216.154.45.36] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AGsSx-0004TO-Ga; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 04:06:51 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA72519.6030609@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:03:37 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Theosophy Study List X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re Jesus and Mary Magdalen as "his wife" ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter1.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=6.5 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Thu Jun 5 09:58:17 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn A while back I quoted:<<"Behold, I have put on my garment and all authority is given to me through the First Mystery.>> Seems Jesus might've said something like that after his passing, and might've said, in effect: <> to, possibly, Mary Magdalen in particular, as well as to others ... Just tonight I found out from a TV documentary about "THE DA VINCI CODE" that "don't touch me" is a translation from the Greek "do not cling to me." That was interpreted as throwing light on the notion that (maybe?) Jesus might've been married to Mary Magdalen, contrary to church dictates. That is, apparently it just wasn't kosher those days for unmarried people to "cling" to each other. Not that ... And the documentary discussed another theory about the "Da Vinci Code" re "THE LAST SUPPER" (by Da Vinci) and the controversy over whether the person on Jesus's right is a woman or not. Seems like a woman to me, for the most part, apparently ... Any opinions out there? As we all here know, I suspect, the early church people were all kind of male oriented dictators, among other things, who might not have taken kindly to allowing much in the way of a church-related role for Mary Magdalen (so Da Vinci was thought to have made her seem as if she might've been male, so as not to get in trouble). And then there were all the documents/books that were destroyed on instructions from the early church, apparently, so, according to that documentary, there's no proof that Jesus might've fathered children who went on to establish communities in France or elsewhere. So a question might be: was the "holy grail" really Mary Magdalen and/or a child ... Speculatively, Mauri From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Nov 04 00:32:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55024 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 08:32:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 08:32:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 08:32:45 -0000 Received: from adsl (200-215-125-162.fnsce7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.125.162]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2129447B0F for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:32:42 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <003301c3a2ad$27d94c20$0301010a@adsl> To: References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> Subject: a view on Master Sai Baba Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:24:47 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "krishtar_a" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bart. I can=B4t help agreeing with Morten somehow. I am not a SS Baba devotee.I have made much reseach about him in spite of a= ll the criticism. Researches ranging from Books, Articles, Isites about the book of Mr. Baile= y ( " the findings" )and all the accusations of ex-devoteesand so on. I discovered that he=B4s not a god incarnated, but a man with defects such = as all of us. Even so , along all these years of intense activitity, there=B4s never been= any man, holy or not holyman, polititian in India during these last 50 yea= rs who has helped his people as much as he did concerning to education, wat= er, public health and hospital and schools building. My question is, in this discussion list where all members have an important= chance to prove they=B4ve learned something from Theosophy, what have we a= ll done for your neighboors besides criticizing Baba? Do we criticizers do as much ad this "faker man" does for each others? For = his people? Vrindavan village and Andhra Pradesh were just tiny places in India=B4s map= before Baba started helping them. My view is that sometimes we are acting like those who criticized and preju= diced HPB. It is useless in a discussion list, principally when we are discussing the = teachings of those who preached about brotherhood of men. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Morten Nymann Olesen=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? Hallo Bart and all of you, My views are: Bart there is no - personal attack here except yours on Sai Baba. An atta= ck which is baseless for the time being ! It is just like Germany invading Polen during WWII - and then asking who started it all ? But Bart if you truely KNOWS, what you say - and you just don't ASSUME it instead, you must in fact be on a HIGHER level of consciousness than Sathya Sai Ba= ba (which teachings are quite differerntly - if one compares them with your views on him as being a fraud etc...). Agreed ? If so, I think, that this is a false claim comming from you Bart. I think we shall know each human being on their spiritual emanation of FRUITS and not on their level of prejudice alone - or the rumours surrounding them. Fact is not the same as assumptions. If I for certain quite inthinkable reason - should be mistaken - it is a great moment we are arriving at here at Theos-Talk. So what is your spiritual emanation of FRUITS - Bart ?=A8 Verbal or mental melon-monsters ? If we should follow our assumptions all the time, - the mass-medias would have a ball of tremendous proportions. And they already have that, - maybe thanks to short comments similar to yours. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:36 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > My views are: > > So you KNOW that Bart ? > > And what does that make you ? > > Yes, I know that. And that makes me someone who is trying to save > others from being led down a path fed by the selfishness of an > individual, thinking that they are moving down a path towards evolution= . > Of course, evolution is possible by being conned, once one realizes it, > but how many people here would rather learn things the hard way than th= e > easy way. > > > (Now the readers will understand, that Bart problably will gave great > > difficulties in giving an honest answer to this last question.) > > That comes dangerously close to a personal attack. > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > >>Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > >> > >>>What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? > >>>Does anyone know that ? > >> > >>Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, > >>fraud, and probably a murderer. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/term= s/ > > =20=20=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Nov 04 07:35:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26059 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 15:35:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 15:35:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 15:35:11 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AH3Ct-0006Hb-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 07:34:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA7C772.5040400@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 10:36:18 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba References: <007d01c3a199$3bdf1610$524ea450@khidr> <3FA5B993.2090600@sprynet.com> <002401c3a1df$b2554ee0$524ea450@khidr> <3FA6AE4F.6080604@sprynet.com> <001901c3a243$c24eab70$524ea450@khidr> <003301c3a2ad$27d94c20$0301010a@adsl> In-Reply-To: <003301c3a2ad$27d94c20$0301010a@adsl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar_a wrote: > Even so , along all these years of intense activitity, there´s never > been any man, holy or not holyman, polititian in India during these > last 50 years who has helped his people as much as he did concerning > to education, water, public health and hospital and schools building. > My question is, in this discussion list where all members have an > important chance to prove they´ve learned something from Theosophy, > what have we all done for your neighboors besides criticizing Baba? > Do we criticizers do as much ad this "faker man" does for each > others? For his people? Vrindavan village and Andhra Pradesh were > just tiny places in India´s map before Baba started helping them. I never got the trains to run on time. Pardon me if I continue to criticize Mussolini. From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Nov 04 08:07:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31123 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 16:07:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 16:07:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 16:07:01 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_dev1.2.) id r.18c.21e4f4e7 (4394) for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:06:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <18c.21e4f4e7.2cd9288e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 11:06:38 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 From: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 11/4/03 9:39:03 AM Central Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << I never got the trains to run on time. Pardon me if I continue to criticize Mussolini. >> And Uncle Al Capone ran soup kitchens. Sai Baba Booey is a fraud and a goon. There is no polite way to put it and there is no reason to be polite about it. Chuck From rwuertz@hotmail.com Tue Nov 04 09:39:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: rwuertz@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69387 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 17:39:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 17:39:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.23.76) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 17:39:49 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 09:39:49 -0800 Received: from 65.29.238.4 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:39:49 GMT X-Originating-Email: [rwuertz@hotmail.com] To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 11:39:49 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Nov 2003 17:39:49.0811 (UTC) FILETIME=[A577A030:01C3A2FA] From: "Ryan Wuertz" X-Originating-IP: [65.29.238.4] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=157978555 Extremely Valid, well informed Point! Thank you for speaking (writing) it Krishtar. Ryan >From: "krishtar_a" >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba >Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 06:24:47 -0200 > >Hi Bart. >I can´t help agreeing with Morten somehow. >I am not a SS Baba devotee.I have made much reseach about him in spite of >all the criticism. >Researches ranging from Books, Articles, Isites about the book of Mr. >Bailey ( " the findings" )and all the accusations of ex-devoteesand so on. >I discovered that he´s not a god incarnated, but a man with defects such as >all of us. >Even so , along all these years of intense activitity, there´s never been >any man, holy or not holyman, polititian in India during these last 50 >years who has helped his people as much as he did concerning to education, >water, public health and hospital and schools building. >My question is, in this discussion list where all members have an important >chance to prove they´ve learned something from Theosophy, what have we all >done for your neighboors besides criticizing Baba? >Do we criticizers do as much ad this "faker man" does for each others? For >his people? >Vrindavan village and Andhra Pradesh were just tiny places in India´s map >before Baba started helping them. >My view is that sometimes we are acting like those who criticized and >prejudiced HPB. >It is useless in a discussion list, principally when we are discussing the >teachings of those who preached about brotherhood of men. > >Krishtar > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Morten Nymann Olesen > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 5:50 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > > > Hallo Bart and all of you, > > My views are: > > Bart there is no - personal attack here except yours on Sai Baba. An >attack > which is baseless for the time being ! > It is just like Germany invading Polen during WWII - and then asking who > started it all ? > > > But Bart if you truely KNOWS, what you say - > and you just don't ASSUME it instead, > you must in fact be on a HIGHER level of consciousness than Sathya Sai >Baba > (which teachings are quite differerntly - if one compares them with your > views on him as being a fraud etc...). > Agreed ? > > If so, I think, that this is a false claim comming from you Bart. > I think we shall know each human being on their spiritual emanation of > FRUITS and not on their level of prejudice alone - or the rumours > surrounding them. Fact is not the same as assumptions. > If I for certain quite inthinkable reason - should be mistaken - it is a > great moment we are arriving at here at Theos-Talk. > > So what is your spiritual emanation of FRUITS - Bart ?¨ > Verbal or mental melon-monsters ? > > If we should follow our assumptions all the time, - the mass-medias >would > have a ball of tremendous proportions. > And they already have that, - maybe thanks to short comments similar to > yours. > > from > M. Sufilight with peace and love... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:36 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World The news: Master Khidr and Sai Baba the same ? > > > > Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > > My views are: > > > So you KNOW that Bart ? > > > And what does that make you ? > > > > Yes, I know that. And that makes me someone who is trying to save > > others from being led down a path fed by the selfishness of an > > individual, thinking that they are moving down a path towards >evolution. > > Of course, evolution is possible by being conned, once one realizes >it, > > but how many people here would rather learn things the hard way than >the > > easy way. > > > > > (Now the readers will understand, that Bart problably will gave >great > > > difficulties in giving an honest answer to this last question.) > > > > That comes dangerously close to a personal attack. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bart Lidofsky" > > >>Morten Nymann Olesen wrote: > > >> > > >>>What is the difference between Sathya Sai Baba and Khidr ? > > >>>Does anyone know that ? > > >> > > >>Sure. Khidr is a holy man, while Sathya Sai Baba is a blackmailer, > > >>fraud, and probably a er. > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > _________________________________________________________________ Great deals on high-speed Internet access as low as $26.95. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Nov 04 09:40:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12826 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 17:40:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 17:40:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 17:40:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.148] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2003 17:38:39 -0000 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:38:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: a view on Master Sai Baba Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <003301c3a2ad$27d94c20$0301010a@adsl> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 1376 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.87.161 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "krishtar_a" =20 wrote: > I discovered that he=B4s not a god incarnated, but a man with defects=20 such as all of us. > Even so , along all these years of intense activitity, there=B4s=20 never been any man, holy or not holyman, polititian in India during=20 these last 50 years who has helped his people as much as he did=20 concerning to education, water, public health and hospital and=20 schools building. I think the problemiis that you are not keeping the issues separate.=20=20 You have determined to your satisfaction that Sai Baba is not a god,=20 which I sarcastically say "No Jive!" You and Bart seem to be in=20 total agreement on this. You have also satisfied yourself that he is=20 a philanthropist. That he is a philanthropist does not negate your=20 contention that he is not deity and vice versa. So it muddles the=20 issue to say that he may be a philanthroopist therefore we cannot say=20 how ridiculous it is that he also claims to be a god. A certain well=20 known American billionaire may be a philanthropist but if he infected=20 someone with HIV and then promised to cure him by means of a miracle=20 (a promise which subsequently was not redeemed) we would all wonder=20 if the stress of being a tycoon had affected his reason. Fortunately=20 the fellow I am thinking of has never done anything of this sort, but=20 Sai Baba has. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Nov 04 09:41:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 75853 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 17:41:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 17:41:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 17:41:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.251] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2003 17:41:37 -0000 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:41:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <18c.21e4f4e7.2cd9288e@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 220 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.234.87.161 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > There is no polite way to put it and there is no reason to be polite about it. Thank goodness for that. Anyone who wants to be polite is on the wrong list. From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Nov 04 11:15:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63617 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 19:15:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 19:15:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.158) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 19:15:14 -0000 Received: from adsl (200-215-125-162.fnsce7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.125.162]) by smtp2.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B2881000D6 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:15:13 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> To: Subject: politeness or goodness on SS Baba Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:07:36 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "krishtar_a" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dears, Personally I think this type of criticism doesn=B4t change anything, doesn= =B4t help anything. Baba cannot hear you. If he=B4do, It wouldn=B4t change him. Much less a criticism build up of words behind a computer keyboard. About politeness: I think I am in a theosophy list, attempting honestly to be a theosophist a= nd if we act like ordinary people with guns in the top of our tongues, what= good is to study theosophy =B4s wisdom? What good has all this study produced? I once read that every thought we produce, creates a thought-form. Accordi= ng to its nature it may be constructive or not We are studying the work of the Arhats. It means - at least to me it does - that it is indeed the essence of esoter= ic buddhism and its principles of kindness and benevolence.=20 Are you aware of what you were in the past life? It is not necessary to be a genius to find out that if Master Morya, Koot H= oo Mi or Djwal Kool had got this way of thinking, they=B4d never leave us a= ll this theosophy Wisdom.Not even would HPB sacrify her life for its cause. ...........................................................................= ........................ I=B4d rather use the term " goodness" than " politeness."=20 Polite is according to a code, goodness is according to heart. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: stevestubbs=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > There is no polite way to put it and there is no reason to be=20 polite about it. Thank goodness for that. Anyone who wants to be polite is on the=20 wrong list. =20=20=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Tue Nov 04 12:22:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98564 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 20:22:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 20:22:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 20:22:37 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id F38945EE309 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:22:31 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002201c3a311$599dc830$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <18c.21e4f4e7.2cd9288e@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:22:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo everyone, Life is an opportunity afforded to each not to eat and drink, but to achieve something nobler and higher to merge in the Reality. - Sri Sathya Sai Baba Sai Baba has so often said, "Love is God. God is love." and "All your acts must be saturated with love... then righteousness will naturally manifest itself in all your undertakings...Love is the very foundation of righteousness and nonviolence." from M. sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 5:06 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba > In a message dated 11/4/03 9:39:03 AM Central Standard Time, > bartl@sprynet.com writes: > > << I never got the trains to run on time. Pardon me if I continue to > criticize Mussolini. > > >> > > And Uncle Al Capone ran soup kitchens. Sai Baba Booey is a fraud and a goon. > > There is no polite way to put it and there is no reason to be polite about it. > > Chuck > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Tue Nov 04 12:51:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 41419 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 20:51:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 20:51:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 20:51:47 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 34E9A5EE333 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:51:46 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <004e01c3a315$6f4c2dd0$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> Subject: Re: Theos-World politeness or goodness on SS Baba Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 21:51:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo everyone, My views are views: Allright - you can choose your own God, and that will be enough. I suggest, that we - See good, do good, be good and also think good. If Sai Baba is bad, one should help him (or her) - and not just shout at him. Who will that help? Is your motivation to help people get scared ? Being helpful to Sai Baba and make him understand what you call the truth in your views would be better. None escapes change except the true Avatar of the Age. If it is Sai Baba, only the Avatar the Age knows. What have you in mind as being helpful to Sai Baba, so he stops being what you say he is ? Helping him must be the same as helping all his devotee's who are on the wrong path. What is wrong. You dare put someone down, whom you claim not to be an Avatar, but you won't help him/her or ...what ...? Teach only love... Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline... Keep your Heart ready to absorb the Love of God... Only love can take you to God... Search for Him (God) with the heart, not with the eye of externals. The Super-power has to be sought in the super-state it self, not in the lower states. Then if you have eyes that are fit to see and the wisdom to understand, you will find Him (God). (Sathya Sai Speak, vol. 1, page 177). "Hridaya" refers to the spiritual heart, which is common to all. It is present everywhere. It has no form. You must try to understand the "I". That "I" is the heart. It is the Atma. It is Brahman. You are Atma, which is entangled in the body, a wave of...God. Attention fixed on one's Atma -- that is the means of liberation. - Sai Baba Always help, never hurt ! Agree ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar_a" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:07 PM Subject: Theos-World politeness or goodness on SS Baba Dears, Personally I think this type of criticism doesn´t change anything, doesn´t help anything. Baba cannot hear you. If he´do, It wouldn´t change him. Much less a criticism build up of words behind a computer keyboard. About politeness: I think I am in a theosophy list, attempting honestly to be a theosophist and if we act like ordinary people with guns in the top of our tongues, what good is to study theosophy ´s wisdom? What good has all this study produced? I once read that every thought we produce, creates a thought-form. According to its nature it may be constructive or not We are studying the work of the Arhats. It means - at least to me it does - that it is indeed the essence of esoteric buddhism and its principles of kindness and benevolence. Are you aware of what you were in the past life? It is not necessary to be a genius to find out that if Master Morya, Koot Hoo Mi or Djwal Kool had got this way of thinking, they´d never leave us all this theosophy Wisdom.Not even would HPB sacrify her life for its cause. ............................................................................ ....................... I´d rather use the term " goodness" than " politeness." Polite is according to a code, goodness is according to heart. Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: stevestubbs To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > There is no polite way to put it and there is no reason to be polite about it. Thank goodness for that. Anyone who wants to be polite is on the wrong list. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Nov 04 13:09:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15700 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 21:09:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 21:09:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 21:09:20 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AH8QS-0004n2-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:09:20 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA815CF.4010001@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 16:10:39 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World politeness or goodness on SS Baba References: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> In-Reply-To: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar_a wrote: > Personally I think this type of criticism doesn´t change anything, > doesn´t help anything. Baba cannot hear you. If he´do, It wouldn´t > change him. No, but it might dissuade a potential victim. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Tue Nov 04 13:11:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 6268 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 21:11:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 21:11:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 21:11:47 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a44e52.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.164.78.82]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 2243F5EE199 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:11:46 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <005a01c3a318$3a8d0990$524ea450@khidr> To: References: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> Subject: Correction: politeness or goodness on SS Baba Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 22:11:35 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo everyone, Sorry - my fingers got entangled in a shorcut....(Smile...). My views are views: Allright - you can choose your own God, and that will be enough. I suggest, that we - See good, do good, be good and also think good. If Sai Baba is bad, one should help him (or her) - and not just shout at him. Who will that help? Is your motivation to help people get scared ? Being helpful to Sai Baba and make him understand what you call the truth in your views would be better. None escapes - change - except the true Avatar of the Age. If it is Sai Baba, only the Avatar the Age knows. What have you in mind as being helpful to Sai Baba, so he stops being what you say he is ? Helping him must be the same as helping all his devotee's who are on the wrong path. What is wrong. You dare put someone down, whom you claim not to be an Avatar, but you won't help him/her or ...what ...? Teach only love... Love is the fundamental spiritual discipline... Keep your Heart ready to absorb the Love of God... Only love can take you to God... Search for God with the heart, not with the eye of externals. The Super-power has to be sought in the super-state it self, not in the lower states. Then if you have eyes that are fit to see and the wisdom to understand, you will find God. The heart is the film and the mind is the lens; turn the lens towards the world and worldy pictures fall on the heart. Turn it towards God, and it will transmit pictures of the Divine. Therefore always do good, see good, remember good and be good. Do not seek to discover or discuss the evil in others, for the attempt will tarnish your own mind. The difference between humans and anmials is that human can discriminate. "Hridaya" refers to the spiritual heart, which is common to all. It is present everywhere. It has no form. You must try to understand the "I". That "I" is the heart. It is the Atma. It is Brahman. You are Atma, which is entangled in the body, a wave of...God. Attention fixed on one's Atma -- that is the means of liberation. Always help, never hurt ! Agree ? from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "krishtar_a" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:07 PM Subject: Theos-World politeness or goodness on SS Baba Dears, Personally I think this type of criticism doesn´t change anything, doesn´t help anything. Baba cannot hear you. If he´do, It wouldn´t change him. Much less a criticism build up of words behind a computer keyboard. About politeness: I think I am in a theosophy list, attempting honestly to be a theosophist and if we act like ordinary people with guns in the top of our tongues, what good is to study theosophy ´s wisdom? What good has all this study produced? I once read that every thought we produce, creates a thought-form. According to its nature it may be constructive or not We are studying the work of the Arhats. It means - at least to me it does - that it is indeed the essence of esoteric buddhism and its principles of kindness and benevolence. Are you aware of what you were in the past life? It is not necessary to be a genius to find out that if Master Morya, Koot Hoo Mi or Djwal Kool had got this way of thinking, they´d never leave us all this theosophy Wisdom.Not even would HPB sacrify her life for its cause. ............................................................................ ....................... I´d rather use the term " goodness" than " politeness." Polite is according to a code, goodness is according to heart. Krishtar ----- Original Message ----- From: stevestubbs To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 3:41 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World a view on Master Sai Baba --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@a... wrote: > There is no polite way to put it and there is no reason to be polite about it. Thank goodness for that. Anyone who wants to be polite is on the wrong list. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Nov 04 14:00:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81141 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 22:00:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 22:00:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.98) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 22:00:49 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.1a0.1c809406 (16484) for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:00:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1a0.1c809406.2cd97b6e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:00:14 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Correction: politeness or goodness on SS Baba To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 From: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 11/4/03 3:17:11 PM Central Standard Time, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: << You dare put someone down, whom you claim not to be an Avatar, but you won't help him/her or ...what ...? >> Ah, but I'm more than willing to help him--off of the nearest cliff. Chuck From Drpsionic@aol.com Tue Nov 04 14:02:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 1787 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 21:59:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 21:59:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 21:59:18 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.84.1bad5a24 (16484) for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:59:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <84.1bad5a24.2cd97b29@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 16:59:05 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World politeness or goodness on SS Baba To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 From: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 11/4/03 3:16:01 PM Central Standard Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << No, but it might dissuade a potential victim. >> And how do you know he doesn't hear it? I think I have a witness sample of him laying around somewhere. It might make an interesting experiment. Chuck From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Tue Nov 04 14:07:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85298 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2003 22:07:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Nov 2003 22:07:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Nov 2003 22:07:10 -0000 Received: from adsl (200-215-125-162.fnsce7002.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.125.162]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 376A741FC for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2003 20:07:08 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <002a01c3a31e$eb4638a0$0301010a@adsl> To: References: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> <3FA815CF.4010001@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World politeness or goodness on SS Baba Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:59:28 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "krishtar_a" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right but first do show a potential victim the right way! My opiniom is that an own example speaks for itself and does better good. K. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bart Lidofsky=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:10 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World politeness or goodness on SS Baba krishtar_a wrote: > Personally I think this type of criticism doesn=B4t change anything, > doesn=B4t help anything. Baba cannot hear you. If he=B4do, It wouldn=B4= t > change him. No, but it might dissuade a potential victim. =20=20=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Nov 04 17:25:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9580 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2003 01:25:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2003 01:25:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2003 01:25:39 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AHCQU-00023Q-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 04 Nov 2003 17:25:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA851DB.6060908@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:26:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World politeness or goodness on SS Baba References: <001301c3a306$e9581120$0301010a@adsl> <3FA815CF.4010001@sprynet.com> <002a01c3a31e$eb4638a0$0301010a@adsl> In-Reply-To: <002a01c3a31e$eb4638a0$0301010a@adsl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.74 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar_a wrote: > Right but first do show a potential victim the right way! > My opiniom is that an own example speaks for itself and does better good. I do what is within my ability to do. I do not refrain from useful action because I am not capable of more useful action. From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Nov 05 01:56:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65378 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2003 09:56:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2003 09:56:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r06.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.102) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2003 09:56:18 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.2d.362f9df2 (3972) for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:56:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2d.362f9df2.2cda233b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:56:11 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re Leon's ABC's, String Theory, Theosophy To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 152.163.225.102 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Mauri, On behalf of everyone on this forum whose mailboxes are already cluttered with much nonsense, I wish to thank you for your pointless comments and further ramblings. However, since you still insist on spilling out a lot of unrelated words reflecting disconnected and vague thoughts that apparently refer to my theory of ABC, confusedly and unexplainably conflated with string, relativity, quantum, theosophy and other "more or less mayavic" (whatever that means) theories -- I won't take the trouble to answer your profound lack of understanding, questions, or conclusions. (At least, not at this time.:-) Wondering why? <\^:-[> In a message dated 10/29/03 2:56:34 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >Leon's ABC's and some of his posts tend to >remind me about the "proofs" in String Theory >re the unification of Quantum Mechanics and >Einstein's Relativity. Apparently there's >been, so far, as far as I know, at least 5 >such equational "proofs." More to come, >maybe? That is, apparently the "quantum >world" ("small/micro world") is not >describable/compatible in terms of laws we're >"used to" to some extent (which laws >reference the "large/macro world" or >Einstein's Theory of Relativity), so, unless >I'm wrong, String Theory was introduced as a >theoretical perspective by which one might >unify the apparent incompatibility between, >in effect, "small" and "large," Quantum >Mechanics and Relativity, respectively. >But/"but" ... > >Anyway, those strings bring to mind Leon's >ABC's. But why not basically admit, per >whatever "apparent/applicable sense making >terms," to a "unifying theory/view" that (as >per Theosophy and the Esoteric Tradition, >incidentally) ... that that might kind of >boil things down to essentials (or >"Essentials"?) out of which might be seen to >arise the depencent arisings (or karmic >reality) of apparent or "ordinary reality" >which, in turn, might be seen as having at >least two aspects: "mayavic" and "less >mayavic" in keeping with at least two >aspects: "mayavic" and "less mayavic" in >keeping with at least two aspects: "mayavic" >and "less mayavic" in keeping with at least >two aspects: "mayavic" and "less mayavic" in >keeping with ... etc, etc, etc ... Well, >maybe that kind of thinking might not go over >too well with some people, so I guess some of >those "unifying" equations (no matter how >many there might be a few years from now, for >whatever reason ...) might seem more proof >related, somehow, in general (ie, apparently >sort of regardless of whatever the "proof," >in turn, might lead to, in general, I tend to >suspect). > >Speculatively, >Mauri From samblo@cs.com Wed Nov 05 02:19:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90314 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2003 10:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2003 10:19:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2003 10:19:56 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.147.1bde1c57 (2612) for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 05:19:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <147.1bde1c57.2cda28be@cs.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 05:19:42 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re Leon's ABC's, String Theory, Theosophy To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10512 From: samblo@cs.com X-Originating-IP: 64.12.136.162 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leon, Last night on PBS Nova I watched a very well done Program on "String Theory." As i watched it i ondered if you had caught ity where you are and thought how must have enjoyed it. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Nov 05 02:21:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 31944 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2003 10:21:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2003 10:21:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2003 10:21:23 -0000 Received: from adsl (200-102-027-090.fnsce7005.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.102.27.90]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E5C0D47B02 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:21:21 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <002301c3a385$62425cc0$0301010a@adsl> To: Subject: En: vegetarianism Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 08:12:56 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "krishtar_a" X-Originating-IP: 200.199.201.163 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:12 AM Subject: vegetarianism - Krishtar Hi everybody May anybody help with some vegetarianism references on theosophical teachings? Leadbeater and Annie wrote some articles and books on it. For faster references, where is it at? Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Nov 05 04:04:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 88294 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2003 12:04:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2003 12:04:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2003 12:04:38 -0000 Received: from pool0199.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.232.199] helo=DALLAS) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AHMOa-0000wj-00; Wed, 05 Nov 2003 04:04:20 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:04:02 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01c3a394$ecf56ba0$c7e8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <002301c3a385$62425cc0$0301010a@adsl> X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.49 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 5 2003 Nov 5 2003 Some Theosophical quotations on food and diet: Available on line from blavatsky.net=20 VEGETARIANISM H P B -- The KEY TO THEOSOPHY p. 260-2, Results of diet Crosbie -- FRIENDLY PHILOSOPHER p. 145-6, 196,=20 Judge - THEOSOPHIC DIET -- W Q J Articles, II p. 447, 452,=20 Judge - ABOUT KILLING ANIMALS -- W Q J Articles II p. 545-6, Judge -- FORUM ANSWERS -- Pp. 115, 129-30,=20 Crosbie -- ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS -- Ocean Class -- Pp 199, 208,, 215, H P B Articles -- Vol. III 167, 175fn, 176; 195, Vol. II 38, 95, MAHATMA LETTERS Pp. 65, 276, 400, 406, H P B -- "THE DEMON OF DRINK" (story) THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT IX 93, 136, "THE FIRST DISTILLER" ISIS UNVEILED I xx, 277fn [alcohol & animal magnetism, change of polarity] Judge -- GITA NOTES, p. 90, 223 "Right food" defined=20=20 "Neo-Platonist recommended vegetarianism to facilitate the purification of the personality" THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY Pp. 149, 257-8 Beginnings of vegetation on earth S D II 713fn The Bean of Pythagoras PATH II 278, 340 "There never yet was a conquering nation of vegetarians" FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY 10 Drunken sleep/stupor described TRANSACTIONS 78 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D DTB =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: krishtar Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:13 AM To=20 Subject:: vegetarianism Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:12 AM Subject: vegetarianism - Krishtar Hi everybody May anybody help with some vegetarianism references on theosophical teachings? Leadbeater and Annie wrote some articles and books on it. For faster references, where is it at? =20 Krishtar From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Nov 05 05:03:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85371 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2003 13:03:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2003 13:03:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2003 13:03:22 -0000 Received: from pool0199.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.232.199] helo=DALLAS) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AHNJc-00023G-00; Wed, 05 Nov 2003 05:03:17 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World re Leon's ABC's, String Theory, Theosophy Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 05:02:59 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01c3a39d$28ba5940$c7e8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <147.1bde1c57.2cda28be@cs.com> X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.49 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 5 2003 Re: STRING THEORY Dear Friends: Very interesting program and followed up by another (last night) on the series=20=20 =09 THE ELEGANT UNIVERSE [PBS NOVA] As I see it, using Theosophy as a basis for viewing the information given, the problem is it attempts to define still dimly perceived metaphysical facts and theories in terms of physical knowledge and mathematical speculation.=20=20 Our "Science" measures all things, and reports on the effect of forces impinging on what it views as "stable" objects [Yet we all know this stability is only apparent, just as the blades of a moving fan offer resistance to a finger, but allow some light and air molecules to pass through, etc...] These observations and theories made, seem to be based on the area of purely (our tangible reality -- is a rather gross approximation to the truth of things). To me, physical related thoughts and known (remembered) sensations are all approximations. We (in our usable, practical science/technology) measure the "means," and "curves," and "plot the graphs," of the results of experimental encounters. Of course only those are tangible to us, and to most thinkers. We are limited by the range of our common lower mind experiences, and we have adopted from those our strictures of materialism.=20 If we are able to perceive the range potential of the "Higher Mind," then these "theories" get resolved by the purposive thrust of all in the Universe, -- a diversified, yet also, a unified host of MONADS all working together under very rigid and exact laws of physics, electrics, and MORALITY -- in cooperative endeavors (yet each in its own way). And this structure and movement has been in existence, and "alive," for uncounted years.=20 Ours is a living and not a dead or static universe. Perhaps one of the faults of the "string theory" is that it tends to reduce motion and purpose to rigid stillness. Which is impossible, as all phenomena are transient.=20=20 We measure the effect of forces on "constructed forms."=20 We need to ask: How did the form arise? What was its past? What is its purpose? What will become of it? What will we do with the knowledge we are acquiring about the imponderables?=20 Finally: What will "string theory" decide? Remember, we are studying a universe full of phenomena that are already orderly, coherent and life-supporting. A "snap-shot" of any particular condition is already "history." What of the future? How does it pass through the "present," and become lour "past?"=20 But the mathematicians would probably call this "philosophy." And, in their compartmented view, this has to be excluded from pure mathematical consideration.=20 I would hazard a guess that only the introduction of philosophical reasoning and causality will help to ultimately resolve this. A pure mathematical expression would then probably have to include symbols for infinity, purpose, immortality, and an "ideal but common goal." Also there can be no "dust heap" (or cemeteries) for discarded living, immortal monads ! I would also observe that at this level on the surface of our earth, "gravity" appears a "weak force." But if we take it down to (to us) the atomic and sub-atomic level, where distances are indeed "short," this force would be enormous, And, it then would be commensurate with other forces that keep the physical appearance of reality stable (It does move and change all the time -- so we are forced to posit an "astral electro-magnetic" lattice work, or basis on which "physical" units and phenomena manifest.=20 To our physical perceptions, the marvel of inter-related actions and diversity, the effects that follow cause that are know, are then also confronted with what seem to be accidents or chance (and "luck") effects -- due to our inability yet, to perceive the forces of the individual INDESTRUCTIBLE MONADS as they pursue their regulated courses in a conjoint evolutionary purpose (defined by some as Spiritual Perfection.) The utter and compete sensitivity of the UNIVERSE where each individual MONAD (vibrating string ?) is allowed leeway to live and evolve (both individually and in the company of others of like structure and intent) is a fact that Theosophical philosophy recognizes and places as a basic thesis for explaining the HISTORY of the Universe and its present phases.=20 Theosophy opens the mind to considerations that include the beginning of universes (and ours as a reincarnation of an earlier one) and their probable goal. It also includes the question of growth in INTELLIGENCE as consciousness wends its way through the almost infinite fields of experience. If one goes through the SECRET DOCTRINE the structure of the universe is shown to depend on two basic things. 1 the indestructibility of the MONAD (ATMA-BUDDHI) where spirit and matter are united and PERCEIVED BY MIND. 2. KARMA which the interactions of a moral quality produced and produce now. This causes re-creation and re-incarnation. Perhaps this may prove of some help, Best wishes, Dallas PS I notice in this presentation that Dr. Penrose was not present, nor were his views expressed. I wonder what they are. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: samblo@cs.com [mailto:samblo@cs.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:20 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World re Leon's ABC's, String Theory, Theosophy Leon, Last night on PBS Nova I watched a very well done Program on "String=20 Theory." As i watched it i ondered if you had caught ity where you are and=20 thought how must have enjoyed it. John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 05 07:56:22 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17611 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2003 15:56:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2003 15:56:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2003 15:56:21 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AHQ16-0003OD-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 05 Nov 2003 07:56:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA91DF2.6030904@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:57:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism References: <002301c3a385$62425cc0$0301010a@adsl> In-Reply-To: <002301c3a385$62425cc0$0301010a@adsl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.123 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar_a wrote: > May anybody help with some vegetarianism references on theosophical teachings? > Leadbeater and Annie wrote some articles and books on it. Well, in the instructions for the Esoteric Section (the last volume of the Collected Writings, before the index), Judge (who wrote the instructions) requires lacto-ovo-ictho vegetarianism (one step away from OLIVE PIT (an acronym for Ovo Lacto Ictho Vegetarian Even Poultry Is Tolerable). Bart From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 05 10:16:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91422 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2003 18:16:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2003 18:16:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2003 18:16:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2003 18:13:59 -0000 Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 18:13:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3FA91DF2.6030904@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1801 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.65 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs The spiritual basis for vegetarianism in Buddhism is that it observes one of the Five Grave Precepts, which forbids us to kill. The same precept was made part of Judaism, but they interpreted it rather loosely as applying only to human beings of their own tribe. The original precept does not say "thou shalt not kill Jews, but everyone and everything else is fair game" but if it were interpreted strictly it would be impossible to reconcile with the practices of earlier centuries in which Abraham (and, scholars believe, plenty of others) was wont to sacrifice his own children. Since Judaism is thousands of years older than Buddhism, and has evolved from a much more primitive time in history. they are compelled to interpret "thou shalt not kill" loosely or face some embarrassing problems. One of the so-called Nochaide Laws states that it is fine to eat animals, but that dismembering them while they are still alive is a no no. That anyone would have to put such a thing in writing tells us something about where our ancestors were and how far we have come, despite the surface appearance of not having come far at all. Raja Yogis practice vegetarianism in observance of the principle of harmlessness (ahimsa). --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > krishtar_a wrote: > > May anybody help with some vegetarianism references on theosophical teachings? > > Leadbeater and Annie wrote some articles and books on it. > > Well, in the instructions for the Esoteric Section (the last volume of > the Collected Writings, before the index), Judge (who wrote the > instructions) requires lacto-ovo-ictho vegetarianism (one step away from > OLIVE PIT (an acronym for Ovo Lacto Ictho Vegetarian Even Poultry Is > Tolerable). > > Bart From mhart@idirect.ca Wed Nov 05 11:17:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55742 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2003 19:17:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2003 19:17:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gozer.look.ca) (207.136.80.10) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2003 19:17:45 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-45.look.ca ([216.154.45.140] helo=idirect.ca) by gozer.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AHT9K-0008BX-05 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 05 Nov 2003 19:17:02 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA94BEB.6040005@idirect.ca> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:13:47 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re Lenny, Leon, Theosophy, science ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter3.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-14.6 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.10 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn The following post wasn't signed, but I'm guessing it might be from Leon. Of course I might be wrong about that, among other things! < >>> Thanks, Leon, that's more like it! But that post from that Lenny guy that appeared on bn-study had me concerned (as per my explanation meant for bn-study, but which explanation/post seems not to have gotten past the list owner, apparently ...). In case you missed it, Leon (I sent it to Lenny privately, as well), here's my response to that post of Lenny's that appeared on bn-study (I hope Lenny doesn't mind my quoting him on this list): Lenny wrote: <> I tend to agree ... <> I tend to agree in a sense ... <> I tend to agree IN A SENSE ... <>> I tend to agree, but only "in a sense ..." << And, then, once we find such esoteric truth within ourselves, how can we tell it to others, other than "exoterically" in descriptive models and formulas they might be able to understand?>> I tend to agree "in a sense ..." << Or, do you think that HPB, WQJ, and others who have tried to explain the fundamental nature of reality in whatever manner they could (considering their level of understanding, and that of those whom they were talking to) and related to the science and philosophy of their age -- were wasting their time and energies? Isn't it obvious that even the Buddha could only explain the true nature of reality in exoteric terms equal to the understanding of those he spoke to? And, does that mean we have to ignore all the millions of words and symbols that were spewed out since by others trying to explain the meaning behind all the words and symbols he used? Is there anything being done wrong, then, by those today who are continuing to try to explain esoteric truths using the language, symbols and formulas related to the modern science of this age? Does not the synthesis of quantum and relativity theories through the "proofs" of Superstring/M-brane theories (much beyond the "5 proofs" of simple string theory) -- coupled with the ABC theory, which bridges all that to mind, consciousness and perception and relates it to the theosophical ideas of the seven fold nature of Man (resulting in a true exoteric "Theory of Everything") -- lead many more of us even closer to those esoteric truths than ever before possible in any previous age? Questioningly, Lenny>> Lenny, while I tend to agree (if "in a sense ...") with everything you said in that post, I can't help thinking about some of the posts I read from Leon ... ^:-/ ... I guess I just miss those challenging exchanges I occasionally had with that Leon guy that got me speculating about a few things. Anyway, you two guys seem to have a lot in common, to an extent, apparently, but ... Lenny, I wonder if I might kindly ask you for a small favor (maybe not so small?)? Could you, by any chance, read some of Leon's posts (unless, of course, you already happen to be familiar enough with them) and then maybe sort of try to follow his general approach when, if, you ever think of responding to a post of mine again? I hope I'm not asking for anything too unreasonable. It's just that I hate it when I find myself repeating that "I tend to agree" over and over again. Doesn't that bother you? Repeating that "in a sense" qualifier over and over just seems about more than I can handle. ^:-/ ... Mauri PS Or maybe this letter got too personal or something to get past Reed, so I figure I might as well send it to you sort of privately, as well ... ============ PS (Theos Talk) Looks like Dallas and John also saw that Elegant Universe documentary on TV. Did you miss it, Leon? Lenny? PPS If you're reading this, Lenny, have a nice day. Leon ... ^:-/ ... Speculatively, Mauri From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Nov 05 11:21:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 45828 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2003 19:21:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2003 19:21:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.163) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2003 19:21:46 -0000 Received: from adsl (200-102-027-090.fnsce7005.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.102.27.90]) by smtp1.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4CDE547B01 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:21:22 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <002f01c3a3d0$cdce99e0$0301010a@adsl> To: References: Subject: thanks to Steve, Bart and Dallas on Vegetarianism Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:12:28 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "krishtar_a" X-Originating-IP: 200.199.201.163 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dears, All these articles were very interesting, pertinent as well as the comments= . Gonna read it all at night and any doubt I=B4ll write again. Thank you all folks. Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From PhilotesII@aol.com Wed Nov 05 13:29:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: PhilotesII@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22133 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2003 21:29:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2003 21:29:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r01.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.97) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2003 21:29:26 -0000 Received: from PhilotesII@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.1f1.1298e85c (2519) for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:28:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1f1.1298e85c.2cdac590@aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:28:48 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re "happiness is helping others" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 8.0 for Windows sub 670 From: PhilotesII@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 152.163.225.97 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=150072488 X-Yahoo-Profile: philotesii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry Mauri, If that contains a message for me I do not understand it. I'm forced to confess my lack of understanding and to possessing a poor slow dull brain. Furthermore as I emerged from a culture where open and frank speech were considered a virtue. I have never been receptive to hints, nods, nuances, etc. If you wish please feel free to e-mail me privately and if this seems blunt to you I would point out that it is just being open and frank to me in the hope that we doe not suffer from a culture clash. In the meantime I wish to stand on record as having made a sincere expression of thanks for a most valuable source of information to assist me in my Theosophical reading without comment on any other aspect of the subject matter. Respectfully yours Philottes II [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 05 17:42:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46655 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 01:42:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 01:42:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 01:42:43 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AHZAY-0001Hg-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 05 Nov 2003 17:42:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA9A762.1090104@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 20:44:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.46 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 stevestubbs wrote: > The spiritual basis for vegetarianism in Buddhism is that it observes > one of the Five Grave Precepts, which forbids us to kill. The same > precept was made part of Judaism, but they interpreted it rather > loosely as applying only to human beings of their own tribe. Bullshit. The precept, translated from Hebrew, states, "don't murder." There's a difference between murder and killing. Bart From listmail@theosophist.org Wed Nov 05 19:08:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: listmail@theosophist.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67364 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 03:07:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 03:07:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO host.theosophist.org) (64.91.254.125) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 03:08:00 -0000 Received: from cpe-66-27-191-40.socal.rr.com ([66.27.191.40] helo=scribe) by host.theosophist.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AHaXz-0008St-Qy for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:10:59 -0500 To: Subject: true inner growth versus formalized religious rules Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 19:07:45 -0800 Message-ID: <010c01c3a413$2bb7b720$7b00a8c0@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <002301c3a385$62425cc0$0301010a@adsl> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.theosophist.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - theosophist.org From: "Eldon B tucker" X-Originating-IP: 64.91.254.125 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=141100620 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker Leadbeater said that in order to be clairvoyant like him, becoming vegetarian was necessary to purify the physical body. He also mentioned giving up sex, alcohol, and other steps towards asceticism. Someone reading his books might become vegetarian, thinking it was required in following a spiritual path, or thinking it would help them in their desire to develop paranormal powers. In climates that don't readily support a vegetarian diet, like in Tibet, th= e Buddhist monks may eat meat. In better climates, they may be vegetarian. I think the idea is based on harmlessness. Don't kill a higher sentient life for food than necessary. Soybeans make fine food if you have the climate bu= t if that rabbit in front of you is your only option between eating and starving to death, it's time for rabbit stew. There is a tendency to formalize religious rules, getting precise and legalistic, attempting to control every aspect of living one's life. It comes from priestcraft and religious leaders with too much time on their hands and far too little spiritual enthusiasm and inspiration. They want to tell you how many times to bow on your prayer mats each day or how to cook your food and wash your pots and pans. This becomes their preoccupation whe= n the inner fires have gone out in their hearts and they are left with nothin= g else to do. There are many arguments for becoming a vegetarian. None of them work on someone who does not want to do so. They're mostly useful to reaffirm the shaky self-confidence in a newly-minted vegetarian still dreaming of and drooling at the thought of a juicy hamburger. A confirmed vegetarian is not tempted and needs no justification. The question, "Why are you a vegetarian= " to such a person is silly, like asking someone why they read a book, drink juice, or yawn when sleepy. It's just something that they do, a part of their life, not due to some driving motivation. A veggie novice may hang on with some grand motive for being good or doing good in the world. Such self-reassurance is unneeded when one has changed. The simplest reason I've heard for becoming vegetarian is that the thought of killing animals for food and eating them is repellant. One is naturally turned away from eating animal flesh. Many other reasons have been given by different people. The reasons, though, are not powerful tools to convert carnivores into veggie eaters. They are personal and as different as people are. I see them more in line with those things we may tell ourselves when trying to change ourselves, those little affirmations, slogans, or thought phrases that keep us focused on our goal when effecting some aspect of self change. I would say that all external aspects of self-change are secondary to the spiritual path. They aren't the main focus, but are side effects of inner progress. The real change comes from an inner lighting of a certain fire of mind, a sense of excitement about life, a growing creativity to do and change things in the world. The big step is finding an outlet for doing something unique to brighten the world, something others are not as well suited to do, something that feels increasing right to do as one continues the process of inner discovery. As one becomes a light in the world, one progresses. The spark within is lit, but is not fanned into a flame unless it comes in contact with external tinder, the raw materials and opportunities of life that we have at hand before us! -- Eldon -----Original Message----- From: krishtar_a [mailto:krishtar_a@brturbo.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:13 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:12 AM Subject: vegetarianism - Krishtar Hi everybody May anybody help with some vegetarianism references on theosophical teachings? Leadbeater and Annie wrote some articles and books on it. For faster references, where is it at? =20 Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 05 21:15:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95740 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 05:15:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 05:15:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 05:15:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.147] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2003 05:15:47 -0000 Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 05:15:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3FA9A762.1090104@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1896 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.65 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Bullshit. The precept, translated from Hebrew, states, "don't murder." > There's a difference between murder and killing. Bullshit. There are numerous references in ancient writings which make it clear there was an animal rights movement in ancient times. The fact that the precept was worded as tersely as it was suggests, but does not prove, that whoever wrote it might have been a member of a reform movement trying to turn people away from the idea that wanton slaughter was a good thing. Whether he was combating the sort of slaughter Elijah supposedly engaged in (people who did not agree with him on matters theological) or the type Samson engaged in (slaughtering people who did not belong to his tribe) or whether he intended to widen it to include slaughter of non-human creatures is impossible to prove at this late date. That there were people then as now concerned with the welfare of animals is a documented fact. It is impossible that this could have been true without these same folks also being concerned about killing of humans who did not belong to one's religious or national gfoup. Consider this: on the one hand you have Abraham, seriously considering the ritual slaughter of his own child, and on the other Alan Dershowitz, who once said publicly he would have indicted Abraham. Both belonged nominally to the same religion, but they exemplify the result of four thousand years of social evolution. A problem arises if one believes that social evolution is either impossible or impious, and that Abraham had the truth that we today should follow. That view seems untenable to me, but if one were to espouse it one would be compelled to water down the commandment against killing to the point that the intent of the original author would certainly not be respected. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Nov 05 21:23:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 44880 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 05:23:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 05:23:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 05:23:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2003 05:23:55 -0000 Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 05:23:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: true inner growth versus formalized religious rules Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <010c01c3a413$2bb7b720$7b00a8c0@scribe> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 771 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.74 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Eldon B tucker" wrote: > Leadbeater said that in order to be clairvoyant like him, becoming > vegetarian was necessary to purify the physical body. Probably true, but Leadbeater strikes me as a poor authority to use. There is plenty of evidence that he was a liar, a homosecual child molester, and a bullshitter, and no evidence that he was clairvoyant or that his body was pure. If he was as pure as he said he was, Jinarajadasa probably put an end to that during the time they lived together. HPB did not call him "WC" Leadbeater for nothing. For those unfamiliar with the abbreviation, "WC" in England means "water closet," known in other parts of the world as a restroom, toilet, privy, loo, or head. From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Nov 05 21:35:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34714 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 05:35:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 05:35:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 05:35:49 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AHco9-0007fv-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:35:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3FA9DE05.7040207@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 00:37:09 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.46 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 stevestubbs wrote: > Bullshit. There are numerous references in ancient writings which > make it clear there was an animal rights movement in ancient times. There were rules against cruelty to animals before you kill them, and killing them in the most humane way possible. > wanton slaughter was a good thing. Whether he was combating the sort > of slaughter Elijah supposedly engaged in (people who did not agree > with him on matters theological) or the type Samson engaged in > (slaughtering people who did not belong to his tribe) Ah, taking the Noam Chomsky track of conveniently leaving out that the people he was killing were trying very hard to kill or enslave him and his people... > It is impossible that this could have been true without these same > folks also being concerned about killing of humans who did not belong > to one's religious or national gfoup. Can you say SELF DEFENSE? Or do you believe that people do not have that basic right? Or is it just people you don't like who don't have that basic right? Bart From mhart@idirect.ca Wed Nov 05 22:28:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71359 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 06:28:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 06:28:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 06:28:20 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-01-16.look.ca ([216.154.45.16] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AHdcu-0002SH-3g for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 06:28:16 +0000 Message-ID: <3FA9E947.7040005@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 01:25:11 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re to Philotes II Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter3.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-14.6 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Thu Jun 5 09:58:17 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.125 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Philotes II wrote: <> Sorry, seems I might've been kind of abstractedly, confusedly mumbling, speculating out loud about John's comment (about "happiness is ... ") in a general sense aside from whatever that might've been specifically in reference to between the two of you. And thanks again John for your kind and more straightforward response. Speculatively, Mauri realize that "curiosity killed the cat," but then, as the Catwoman said, "I'm not a cat" (well, she said that shortly before she turned into the Catwoman, anyway)... so I seem to keep on thinking that one might be somewhat freely allowed to speculate around here ... uh, about things that might be seen, by some, as "related to Theosophy," so ... ^:-/ ... Sorry. From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Nov 05 23:18:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 52635 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 07:18:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 07:18:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r06.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.102) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 07:18:32 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.11.1bbad521 (3842) for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 02:18:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <11.1bbad521.2cdb4fc2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 02:18:26 EST Subject: Re: Leon's ABC's, String Theory, Theosophy To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 152.163.225.102 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 11/05/03 6:23:40 AM, samblo@cs.com writes: >Leon, > Last night on PBS Nova I watched a very well done Program on "String >Theory." > As i watched it i wondered if you had caught it where you are and >thought how (you) must have enjoyed it. > John Thanks John, for the information. No, I didn't see the program, but I've been to the PBS site where it is all explained and enjoyed it immensely. I particularly liked the way they tried to picture simply and through animation how to imagine dimensions that are beyond those 3 metric dimensions we can easily picture. I also see this as the beginning of what HPB predicted; That science in this century would finally come to realize that theosophy was telling the whole truth about the true nature of both unconditioned and conditioned reality. Unfortunately, while this is a start in the right direction, they aren't all the way there yet.:-) But, just give it another few years -- and theosophy a nd its practical idealist view of the universe will finally be fully vindicated by those same scientists who until then had given credence to its skeptics and detractors. Before this happens, the only problem I see (and why I could laugh a bit when I studied their theory) is that, while they have successfully correlated quantum and relativity theories, they are trying to explain it all from the wrong direction of view. That is, by using the reductionist method to understand the general principles (or the origin of everything) -- i.e., looking at it from the outside in, rather than from the inside out... As I do in my ABC theory, where we start from the dimensionless zero-point and its abstract motion or "spinergy," and trace its essentially spherical expansion in a completely logical progression, through the transcendental hyperspace dimensions, as they fractally involve down and, after breaking their symmetry, finally evolve to the 4-D space (3 metric dimensions plus time) we experience... And, eventually, end up with something similar to Superstring/ M-brane theory -- but coming to it from the opposite direction. (See my web sites below) While Superstring theory's 10 (or more) dimensional mathematics accurately describes this multidimensionality of primal space, such math doesn't depend on which direction you view such space from. So, the Superstring theorist's choice of looking from the outside in, is simply because they are forced to take the reductionist view that tries to add up the observable particulars to understand the unobservable general case, or the whole. (Thus, they can still keep separate the religious, idealistic, or theosophical view, and maintain their scientific materialistic view that matter precedes consciousness -- which, to them, must be due solely to the brain's neurological complexity.) Of course, until they include the cause and explain the "binding" of mind and brain, and the experience of consciousness in their theory, it can never be the true "Theory of Everything" they are looking for. Unfortunately (for them), however, the whole is not the sum of its parts -- since the Cosmos must begin at a truly zero (or non dimensional) point (which can be nothing less than pure consciousness itself, as well as infinitely energetic). And, therefore, it can expand fractally to an infinite series of such points to fill any dimension (or rather, frequency/energy phase order) of hyperspace -- which, in essence, must therefore be infinitely divisible... Both outside that non-dimensional (to us) zero-point as well as inside it. [Consider that the zero-point in any hyperspace field is the only non dimensional [immeasurable] aspect of that particular field (that has its own particular frequency/energy-phase of vibratory motion). Also, since all fields are, in essence, substantial to varying degrees and can be considered material as well as subject to change and, thus, time -- the only (nonlinear) thing "outside" of such time and space, is the zero-point itself... As, consciousness or subjectivity is always separate from matter or objectivity. Yet, they are always interdependently arising. One the observer, the other the observed.] Although, this zero-point origin expanding fractally into infinite coenergetic and multidimensional fields may be impossible to fully imagine in our mind's eye, it is, nevertheless, a logically consistent conclusion based on fundamental principles. That's why the full mysteries of the infinite Universe can never be completely known to the finite minds that inhabit it. (No matter what hyperspace field their consciousness happens to be focussed in.) Therefore, it's easy to consider that there may be individual "lives" limited to the astral, and even the mental and akashic realms, that cannot examine or observe anything outside of their own hyperspace dimension -- which is as real to them as this one is to us. Thus, as physical beings, we cannot be sensorily aware of the hyperspace dimensions we live in. Although, in deep meditation, such as described in the Voice of the Silence and Patanjali's Yoga Aphorisms, our zero-point of individual Self consciousness, can be isolated from the senses and thus can experience these dimensions directly. In fact, every time we think abstractly, concentrate our attention one pointedly, imagine, or dream -- our consciousness is focussed within one of these hyperspace dimensions... Where, information is carried as holographic interference patterns on the circumferences or M-branes of their respective fields -- detectable only by a coherent ray of equivalent frequency energy phase that is projected outward (by the energy of willful intent) from its zero-point center, and reflected back to its source. The only reason the Superstring theorists see only 10 dimensions (6 of hyperspace + 3 of our material space + time) -- is that their equations are dependent on the fundamental laws of cycles which break the cyclic patterns of field expansion and involution into octaves (6 hyperspace + 1 metric [our visual or sidereal light] space). All they can see with their mathematics, however, is perhaps, the third octave from the beginning of our Cosmos. However, there are an infinite number of such iterations possible starting from our cosmic zero-point and its abstract motion or "spinergy." This makes credible the theosophical view (based on fundamental laws of cycles, periodicity, harmony, electricity, etc., that imply supersymmetry and conservation of energy throughout all dimensions of cosmic and pre-cosmic space); that there are at least 49 stages within each evolution of fields within fields within fields, etc... Starting from the origin of the Cosmos, and extending down to the sub microscopic particle/waves such as, photons, quarks, and finally, the physical "strings" that the scientific theory of Superstrings postulate -- but can't directly observe or measure. This, of course, doesn't rule out the theosophical view that there are non dimensional (from our point of view) "strings" (or rays of energy) that make up the composition of each hyperspace field extending as far out to the first triune spiritual fields that formed the present Cosmos as it exploded out of its primal singularity (which still remains infinitely divisible). Thus, Brahma stems from Parabrahm, which stems from Paraparabrahm, which stems from Paraparaparabrahm, etc., ad infinitum, as the eastern philosophers have been telling us for ages. Since, all these fields must originate at a common zero-point, this is the basis of assuming that each individual human consciousness is simply a zero-point of awareness (at the source and center of its triune Monad) reflecting directly from, and entangled with the initial zero-point of initial Cosmic awareness. Since, physically, we are all essentially, made up out of light, and each hyperspace field has its own limiting light velocity, it's perfectly natural that when we approach that limit, both sidereal time and 3-D space come to an end for us. But, since our center of consciousness is separate from this physicality, that doesn't preclude out continued conscious existence on any one or more of the higher levels of our being or, at least (as long as this universe exists) in our individual monad. Truly, the universe is like an infinitely complex hall of essentially simple mirrors whose smallest and largest dimensions would have to be in the shape of a triangle. Another example of this is the fractal division or multiplication of an octahedron or diamond shape (which can be perfectly inscribed in a sphere) into an infinite number of octahedrons that extend from zero to infinity. Therefore, to deny the existence of the zero-point outside of all time and space, and the infinite fractal iterations of its expanding and contracting spinergy is to deny the existence of this whole physical universe, as well as our own existence. Does this make a bit clearer everything HPB explained about these unimaginable (although possible) infinities (and their finite iterations) in the Secret Doctrine? I hope so. Then maybe, someday, when Superstring theory and its offshoot into M-brane theory (which explains the bubble-like surfaces of the coenergetic fields postulated in the ABC theory) is fully accepted by science as a true "Theory of Everything" (including consciousness and mind) -- the world will also accept the conclusions of rounds and races, along with karma and reincarnation -- also postulated by the corresponding theosophical as well as ABC precepts. Then, maybe, everyone will begin to understand the meaning of the Hermetic and Kabbalistic statements, "As above, so below," "The measure of Man is three score and ten," "As you sow, so shall you reap," etc., and give credence to the idea of the sevenfold division of primary fields within the human body that stems from the initial triune monadic fields centered in the Heart Chakra). Incidentally, such living "monads" are the first triple field iteration of any progression of strings or rays of energy emanating out of any zero-point throughout all the infinite universes that are possible (down to the universe of "lives" within each human being). Thus, in the Book of Dzyan (referring to the genesis of our Cosmos) it is implied that number starts from no number, that the first number is three, and follows the series, "The three, the one, the four, the one, the five, the twice seven, the sum total." (See this pictured in the "chakrafield" diagram on one of the web sites below.) That's about all for now. More later, if I hear the right questions or leads. :-) Best wishes, LHM http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/evolution2.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Nov 06 00:16:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59055 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 08:16:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 08:16:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m06.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.161) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 08:16:41 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.3a.408d9fc6 (3842) for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 03:16:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3a.408d9fc6.2cdb5d63@aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 03:16:35 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re Lenny, Leon, Theosophy, science ... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 64.12.136.161 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Hey Mauri, Maybe you should have some patience, before you start worrying about whether I'm going to answer your letters of not. I hate to confuse you further, but since you insist on crossing over to both Bn-study and theos-talk, let me set the record straight. Leon is actually an abbreviation of Leonardo (my given name) -- which was hung on me by the doctor who made out my birth certificate, and which followed me through school and business. (Wm., Chas., Jms., Les., they could handle, but Leon. threw them for a loop). However, everyone knows me personally as Lenny or Len. I've also been called Leo and Lee by some of my acquaintances, especially those that come from Europe or the Far East. (Since I have no personal ego left anymore, I couldn't care less what anyone calls me. :-) As for Lenny on Bn-study, that's because most of the founders and charter members of that forum came from the New York ULT Lodge where they all know me personally. In personal letters to friends and family, I use Len. In the science and other forums that link to my web sites, I use Leon or LHM. (This was because the moderator of the Journal of Consciousness Study online forum is named Len Maurer, and I didn't want to confuse them.) So, there you have it, and now you can stop speculating on names (and hopefully, on everything else -- since I'm getting bored with all this nonsense.) Best wishes, LHM, a.k.a. Lenny, Leon, Len, Lee, Leo, "fast Lenny" or "the flash" (in my gang and army days -- because I was never in any rush to volunteer for anything. ;-) In a message dated 11/05/03 3:28:11 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >The following post wasn't signed, but I'm >guessing it might be from Leon. Of course I >might be wrong about that, among other things! > ><whose mailboxes are already cluttered with >much nonsense, I wish to thank you for your >pointless comments and further ramblings. >However, since you still insist on spilling >out a lot of unrelated words reflecting >disconnected and vague thoughts that >apparently refer to my theory of ABC, >confusedly and unexplainably conflated with >string, relativity, quantum, theosophy and >other "more or less mayavic" (whatever that >means) theories -- I won't take the trouble >to answer your profound lack of >understanding, questions, or conclusions. (At >least, not at this time.:-) >Wondering why? <\^:-[> >>> > >Thanks, Leon, that's more like it! But that >post from that Lenny guy that appeared on >bn-study had me concerned (as per my >explanation meant for bn-study, but which >explanation/post seems not to have gotten >past the list owner, apparently ...). In case >you missed it, Leon (I sent it to Lenny >privately, as well), here's my response to >that post of Lenny's that appeared on >bn-study (I hope Lenny doesn't mind my >quoting him on this list): > >Lenny wrote: <concept into words, pictures, or symbols >automatically makes it "exoteric.">> > >I tend to agree ... > ><versions of fundamental truth, or Gupta >Vidya, how else are we to get even an inkling >of what the underlying inner >esoteric truth actually is? Didn't HPB say >that we each have to arrive at those >esoteric ideas in our own higher mind, all by >ourselves -- through "self >determined and self devised study and effort"?>> > >I tend to agree in a sense ... > > <occult literature and equally deep >contemplation of the "models" presented >exoterically? Isn't that what Jnana Yoga is >all about? And, isn't that why she wrote the >Secret Doctrine in exoteric >terms? (Are there any other?)>> > >I tend to agree IN A SENSE ... > ><(once one understands exactly what it refers >to and represents, and can picture it in >one's higher mind) "lead >to some kind of more transcendental >understanding about reality"?>>> > >I tend to agree, but only "in a sense ..." > ><< And, then, once we find such esoteric >truth within ourselves, how can we tell it to >others, other than "exoterically" in >descriptive models and formulas they might be >able to understand?>> > >I tend to agree "in a sense ..." > ><< Or, do you think that HPB, WQJ, and others >who have tried to explain the fundamental >nature of reality in whatever manner they >could (considering their level of >understanding, and that of those whom they >were talking to) and related to the science >and philosophy of their age -- were wasting >their time and energies? Isn't it obvious >that even the Buddha could only explain the >true nature of reality in exoteric terms >equal to the understanding of those he spoke >to? And, does that mean we have to ignore >all the millions of words and symbols that >were spewed out since by others trying to >explain the meaning behind all the words and >symbols he used? Is there anything being done >wrong, then, by those today who are >continuing to try to explain esoteric truths >using the language, symbols and formulas >related to the modern science of this age? >Does not the synthesis of quantum and >relativity theories through the "proofs" of >Superstring/M-brane theories (much beyond the >"5 proofs" of simple string theory) -- >coupled with the ABC theory, which bridges >all that to mind, consciousness and >perception and relates it to the theosophical >ideas of the seven fold nature of Man >(resulting in a true exoteric "Theory of >Everything") -- lead many more of us even >closer to those >esoteric truths than ever before possible in >any previous age? Questioningly, Lenny>> > >Lenny, while I tend to agree (if "in a sense >...") with everything you said in that post, >I can't help thinking about some of the posts >I read from Leon ... ^:-/ ... I guess I just >miss those challenging exchanges I >occasionally had with that Leon guy that got >me speculating about a few things. Anyway, >you two guys seem to have a lot in common, to >an extent, apparently, but ... Lenny, I >wonder if I might kindly ask you for a small >favor (maybe not so small?)? Could you, by >any chance, read some of Leon's posts >(unless, of course, you already happen to be >familiar enough with them) and then maybe >sort of try to follow his general approach >when, if, you ever think of responding to a >post of mine again? I hope I'm not asking >for anything too unreasonable. It's just >that I hate it when I find myself repeating >that "I tend to agree" over and over again. >Doesn't that bother you? Repeating that "in >a sense" qualifier over and over just seems >about more than I can handle. > >^:-/ ... >Mauri > >PS Or maybe this letter got too personal or >something to get past Reed, so I figure I >might as well send it to you sort of >privately, as well ... >============ > >PS (Theos Talk) Looks like Dallas and John >also saw that Elegant Universe documentary on >TV. Did you miss it, Leon? Lenny? > >PPS If you're reading this, Lenny, have a >nice day. Leon ... ^:-/ ... > >Speculatively, >Mauri > From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Thu Nov 06 01:40:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 79023 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 09:40:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 09:40:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.180) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 09:40:50 -0000 Received: from adsl (200-138-245-102.fnsce7004.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.138.245.102]) by smtp4.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E3B433EB7 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:40:20 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <001901c3a448$b3e166c0$0301010a@adsl> To: Subject: Was HPB a veggie? Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:31:01 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "krishtar_a" X-Originating-IP: 200.199.201.180 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the Peter Washington=B4s " Blavatsy =B4s Babbon" he mentioned that HPB= used to eat fried eggs floating in oil ( he silly claimed it was HPB=B4s = one cause for her over-weight). I know that this particular book is full of inconsistences, errors and fals= e considerations, I am using it just for illustrating. Any comments on Blavatsky diet? Was she veggetarian? Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 06 04:04:34 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 3121 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 12:04:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 12:04:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 12:04:32 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AHisK-0007jM-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 04:04:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3FAA3924.60707@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 07:05:56 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Was HPB a veggie? References: <001901c3a448$b3e166c0$0301010a@adsl> In-Reply-To: <001901c3a448$b3e166c0$0301010a@adsl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.74 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 krishtar_a wrote: > Any comments on Blavatsky diet? Was she veggetarian? >From what I've been told, no (although it was apparently on doctor's instructions). In addition, she smoked, heavily. From listmail@theosophist.org Thu Nov 06 06:50:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: listmail@theosophist.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 96506 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 14:50:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 14:50:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO host.theosophist.org) (64.91.254.125) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 14:50:22 -0000 Received: from [167.167.187.206] (helo=scribe) by host.theosophist.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AHlVj-0001sc-2w for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 09:53:23 -0500 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: true inner growth versus formalized religious rules Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 06:50:05 -0800 Message-ID: <009901c3a475$48a7ef00$cebba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.theosophist.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - theosophist.org From: "Eldon B tucker" X-Originating-IP: 64.91.254.125 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=141100620 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker I'm aware of some of the history, but thought that since the ideas are typical of New Age thought, it might be more inclusive to mention his expression of them. Some Theosophists I know prefer his ideas as a major part of their belief system, although my personal preference is HPB and G. de Purucker. I don't feel a constant need to remind people of actual or alleged wrongdoings of those they look up to. I might, for instance, point out something positive about Mormonism when speaking to someone of that faith, and not mention any of the dark things about the past history of tha= t religion that might alienate the person from me were I to bring them up. (I= n a different situation, of course, it might be right to discuss the shortcomings of the church and its beliefs.) My main point was that I see the external changes that one can engineer in one's life as the external trappings of inner change. Becoming vegetarian, for instance, in order to make oneself more spiritual, one is taking things backwards and likely to fail at the objective. Becoming awakened, then finding that being vegetarian suits one's new activities in life, one succeeds. (The approach I consider successful is "top down" from within, no= t "bottom up" from cleverly crafted external changes in life according to someone else's formula.) -- Eldon -----Original Message----- From: stevestubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:24 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: true inner growth versus formalized religious rule= s --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Eldon B tucker" =20 wrote: > Leadbeater said that in order to be clairvoyant like him, becoming > vegetarian was necessary to purify the physical body. Probably true, but Leadbeater strikes me as a poor authority to use.=20=20 There is plenty of evidence that he was a liar, a homosecual child=20 molester, and a bullshitter, and no evidence that he was clairvoyant=20 or that his body was pure. If he was as pure as he said he was,=20 Jinarajadasa probably put an end to that during the time they lived=20 together. HPB did not call him "WC" Leadbeater for nothing. For=20 those unfamiliar with the abbreviation, "WC" in England means "water=20 closet," known in other parts of the world as a restroom, toilet,=20 privy, loo, or head. =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Nov 06 07:07:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89566 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 15:07:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 15:07:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO twiddle.look.ca) (207.136.80.125) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 15:07:49 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-04-10.look.ca ([216.154.45.153] helo=idirect.ca) by twiddle.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AHlje-0000xx-E1 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 15:07:46 +0000 Message-ID: <3FAA6306.6030606@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:04:38 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re to Lenny, Leon, etc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter4.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-14.6 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Thu Jun 5 09:58:17 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.125 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Leon, etc, wrote: <> L, If you had an idea that I probably knew (or "surely knew") that all those names you have used that start with L were all the same guy, then, (one might wonder ...), why not address the issues I brought up in my posts (which I pasted at the bottom of this post, again), rather than go on as if I were just confused about which name is which (not that you haven't told me often enough about how confuing my posts are, but ...) ... At any rate, regardless of how any one particular L-named guy from your direction comes through to me, or got through to me, from my speculative perspective, that post from Lenny did seem "more agreeable" to me, in a sense, than some/many of Leon's posts. So, in a sense, I was kind of kidding and serious at the same time, regardless of how it all seemed to you, L. As ususal, though, seems I might've used "excessive" qualifiers or whatever in those posts that I'm pasting here again: The following post wasn't signed, but I'm guessing it might be from Leon. Of course I might be wrong about that, among other things! < >>> Thanks, Leon, that's more like it! But that post from that Lenny guy that appeared on bn-study had me concerned (as per my explanation meant for bn-study, but which explanation/post seems not to have gotten past the list owner, apparently ...). In case you missed it, Leon (I sent it to Lenny privately, as well), here's my response to that post of Lenny's that appeared on bn-study (I hope Lenny doesn't mind my quoting him on this list): Lenny wrote: <> I tend to agree ... <> I tend to agree in a sense ... <> I tend to agree IN A SENSE ... <>> I tend to agree, but only "in a sense ..." << And, then, once we find such esoteric truth within ourselves, how can we tell it to others, other than "exoterically" in descriptive models and formulas they might be able to understand?>> I tend to agree "in a sense ..." << Or, do you think that HPB, WQJ, and others who have tried to explain the fundamental nature of reality in whatever manner they could (considering their level of understanding, and that of those whom they were talking to) and related to the science and philosophy of their age -- were wasting their time and energies? Isn't it obvious that even the Buddha could only explain the true nature of reality in exoteric terms equal to the understanding of those he spoke to? And, does that mean we have to ignore all the millions of words and symbols that were spewed out since by others trying to explain the meaning behind all the words and symbols he used? Is there anything being done wrong, then, by those today who are continuing to try to explain esoteric truths using the language, symbols and formulas related to the modern science of this age? Does not the synthesis of quantum and relativity theories through the "proofs" of Superstring/M-brane theories (much beyond the "5 proofs" of simple string theory) -- coupled with the ABC theory, which bridges all that to mind, consciousness and perception and relates it to the theosophical ideas of the seven fold nature of Man (resulting in a true exoteric "Theory of Everything") -- lead many more of us even closer to those esoteric truths than ever before possible in any previous age? Questioningly, Lenny>> Lenny, while I tend to agree (if "in a sense ...") with everything you said in that post, I can't help thinking about some of the posts I read from Leon ... ^:-/ ... I guess I just miss those challenging exchanges I occasionally had with that Leon guy that got me speculating about a few things. Anyway, you two guys seem to have a lot in common, to an extent, apparently, but ... Lenny, I wonder if I might kindly ask you for a small favor (maybe not so small?)? Could you, by any chance, read some of Leon's posts (unless, of course, you already happen to be familiar enough with them) and then maybe sort of try to follow his general approach when, if, you ever think of responding to a post of mine again? I hope I'm not asking for anything too unreasonable. It's just that I hate it when I find myself repeating that "I tend to agree" over and over again. Doesn't that bother you? Repeating that "in a sense" qualifier over and over just seems about more than I can handle. ^:-/ ... Mauri PS Or maybe this letter got too personal or something to get past Reed, so I figure I might as well send it to you sort of privately, as well ... ============ PS (Theos Talk) Looks like Dallas and John also saw that Elegant Universe documentary on TV. Did you miss it, Leon? Lenny? PPS If you're reading this, Lenny, have a nice day. Leon ... ^:-/ ... Speculatively, Mauri =========== From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Nov 06 07:21:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61451 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 15:21:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 15:21:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40910.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.207) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 15:21:35 -0000 Message-ID: <20031106152134.24077.qmail@web40910.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40910.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 07:21:34 PST Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 07:21:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-1879 Available November 2003! To: ".DanielHCaldwell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.78.207 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-1879 Available November 2003! For more details about this new volume and ordering information, see: http://theosophical.org/resources/newreleases/ All students of Blavatsky's life and writings will want to add this volume to their personal library. Daniel ===== Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm -------------------------------------------------------------- "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2 -------------------------------------------------------------- You can always access our main site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc Blavatsy Study Center now has a mirror site at: http://www.theosophy.info/ -------------------------------------------------------------- From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Nov 06 08:09:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34215 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 16:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 16:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 16:08:58 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-22.look.ca ([216.154.45.69] helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AHmgr-0002AW-6A for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 16:08:57 +0000 Message-ID: <3FAA7162.5020709@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:05:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: correction re my post to Philotes II Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter4.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-14.6 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_IN_DEF_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.9 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Sorry again Philotes II, I thought I'd erased that addition at the bottom of the post. ^:-/ ... Mauri From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Nov 06 10:54:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99552 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 18:54:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 18:54:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40909.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.206) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 18:54:38 -0000 Message-ID: <20031106185438.52952.qmail@web40909.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40909.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 10:54:38 PST Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 10:54:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Some Audio and Video Presentations about H.P. Blavatsky and Theosophy To: ".DanielHCaldwell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.78.206 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Some Audio and Video Presentations about H.P. Blavatsky and Theosophy See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/onlinepresentations.htm These are 3 presentations produced by The Theosophical Society in America (Wheaton, Illinois, USA). We plan to also highlight some other audio/video material from other Theosophical publishers/sites. Daniel Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Nov 06 11:00:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 756 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 19:00:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 19:00:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r03.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.99) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 19:00:10 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.f8.32c990ce (3964) for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:59:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 13:59:56 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re to Lenny, Leon, etc To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 152.163.225.99 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 M, Haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. And, getting tired of rereading old mail over and over again. So, would appreciate getting a direct question about any of the "issues" you might have brought up in any of your posts -- so I can give them a direct answer. The only reason that "Lenny post" was more agreeable to you is that you posed a direct question on bn--study that I could answer in a way that might be useful to some of my friends over there. (I write letters in these forums, fully aware that others might be reading them.) L. In a message dated 11/06/03 11:16:14 AM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: (snip) >L, If you had an idea that I probably knew >(or "surely knew") that all those names you >have used that start with L were all the same >guy, then, (one might wonder ...), why not >address the issues I brought up in my posts >(which I pasted at the bottom of this post, >again), rather than go on as if I were just >confused about which name is which (not that >you haven't told me often enough about how >confuing my posts are, but ...) ... At any >rate, regardless of how any one particular >L-named guy from your direction comes through >to me, or got through to me, from my >speculative perspective, that post from Lenny >did seem "more agreeable" to me, in a sense, >than some/many of Leon's posts. So, in a >sense, I was kind of kidding and serious at >the same time, regardless of how it all >seemed to you, L. As ususal, though, seems I >might've used "excessive" qualifiers or >whatever in those posts that I'm pasting here >again: (snip) From dhyana@web.de Thu Nov 06 12:18:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61117 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 20:18:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 20:18:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 20:18:38 -0000 Received: from computer (cppp-200.blinx.de [62.96.222.200]) by mail.blinx.de (8.12.6/8.12.6/SuSE Linux 0.6) with SMTP id hA6KIYkQ006594 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2003 21:18:35 +0100 Message-ID: <00fa01c3a4a3$34d5b0b0$152ca8c0@computer> To: References: <20031106152134.24077.qmail@web40910.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-1879 Available November 2003! Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 21:16:34 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS - amavis-milter (http://www.amavis.org/) X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Originating-IP: 194.115.26.35 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de The announcement text at the link below is alarming. For serious students of HPB some questions arise: 1. Are the published HPB letters censored or not censored? 2. Was John Algeo alone discovering HPB's letter? 3. Is Mr Algeo's collection identical with the letters Boris de Zirkoff was collecting for fifty years? 4. If so, why is Boris de Zirkoff not mentioned? 5. The announcements states that comments are inserted by Mr Algeo. Do they replace the comments John Cooper as de Zirkoff's heir made? 6. Why is the research of Prof. Cooper not mentioned? 7. Since when is Annie Besant known as a trustworthy archivist? What did Annie Besant with the three letters of W. Q. Judge, warning her not to follow the lower astral way? What did Annie Besant with HPB's missing manuscripts, such as "The Esoteric Character of the Gospels?" 8. Annie Besant is known as a faker of HPB's manuscripts. Does that mean that the mention of Annie Besant in the Wheaton announcement is a guarantee that the letter edition contains also fakes? 9. Is HPB's unique and clever criticism of priestcrafts left untouched or are the passages are silently cut out for the sake of political/theosophcial correctness? 10. What about the rest of the collection of HPB's letters which seem to be now in the possession of Gregory Tillett, Cooper's heir? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: ".DanielHCaldwell" Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 4:21 PM Subject: Theos-World The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-1879 Available November 2003! The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-1879 Available November 2003! For more details about this new volume and ordering information, see: http://theosophical.org/resources/newreleases/ All students of Blavatsky's life and writings will want to add this volume to their personal library. Daniel ===== Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm -------------------------------------------------------------- "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2 -------------------------------------------------------------- You can always access our main site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc Blavatsy Study Center now has a mirror site at: http://www.theosophy.info/ -------------------------------------------------------------- Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Nov 06 12:58:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66613 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 20:58:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 20:58:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 20:58:00 -0000 Received: from [216.154.45.103] (helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AHrCX-0006ID-Pg for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 15:57:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3FAAB51F.2050401@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 15:54:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re Leon and "direct enough" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter2.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.6 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.122 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn L wrote: <> Seems we might define "direct" somewhat differently in that where I seem to ... On second thought, no point in offering more confusing qualifiers, at least not until ... ^:-/ ... I seem to recall having offered some comments already about "strings" in relation to Theosophy, among other things, all of which, to me, seemed "direct enough," in a sense (mostly "in agreement in a sense" with many of your wordings). But, in case you're in the mood for some more confusing qualifiers that might not have enough "directness" in them to your liking: I wonder if the nature of "atma-buddhi" might be kind of dependent, like everything else in this "ordinary reality," on the "exoteric reality" of "karma/maya," by which I'm saying (or "my karma might be saying," I'm speculating) that all karmic notions (and some "less karmic" notions, as well, maybe ...) about the nature of "atma-buddhi" might be inherently mayavic and basically impermanent in as much as they are karmic in their exoteric ("essentially dualistic") aspects ... And so if "karma" (where the quotes refer to a basically interpretive, or "karmic/mayavic" nature of that word) ... and so if "karma" per whatever "individualistic/collective" interpretive/intermediary variation has outlined or realized or made real whatever model or world view ("in one's life"), then, (obviously?), such appearances and worlds and worldviews are really engaging one's present attention in terms of reality in as much as if one has no other recourse to anything "higher"---which "higher" one might, (eg...), Theosophically model in terms of such as "atma-buddhi" and "Monad," not that such modeling isn't relevant enough and real enough in terms of one's reality or "only available reality." In other words, "as I currently tend to see it," the Esoteric Tradition is all about cultivating a meaningful or "meaningful enough" "middle way" (or Theosophy, eg) between what is "more" and "less" real/"real" in the most apparently p/Profoundest/r/Realest/t/Truest sense. Speculatively, Mauri From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Nov 06 13:28:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 37162 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 21:27:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 21:27:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.99) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 21:27:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.173] by n31.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2003 21:27:19 -0000 Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 21:27:18 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-1879 Available November 2003! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00fa01c3a4a3$34d5b0b0$152ca8c0@computer> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4206 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.99 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Frank, You ask: "Are the published HPB letters censored or not censored?" No, they are definitely not censored. You also ask: "Is HPB's unique and clever criticism of priestcrafts left untouched or are the passages are silently cut out for the sake of political/theosophcial correctness?" Everything is left untouched and nothing silently cut out. You also ask: "Annie Besant is known as a faker of HPB's manuscripts. Does that mean that the mention of Annie Besant in the Wheaton announcement is a guarantee that the letter edition contains also fakes?" I am not exactly sure what you actually mean by "fakes". Frank, once you actually get the volume, you tell me if there are any such "fakes" in this volume. I am not aware of any such fakes in this new volume of HPB's letters. Furthermore, I have either in photocopy or microfilm almost all of these letters. I was collecting copies of all this material long before I ever knew or even heard about John Cooper or John Algeo. I believe many of your other questions will be answered in the introductory and prefatory material to this new volume of HPB's letters. I repeat: All students of Blavatsky's life and writings will want to add this volume to their personal library. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER http://hpb.cc --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > The announcement text at the link below is alarming. > For serious students of HPB some questions arise: > > 1. Are the published HPB letters censored or not censored? > > 2. Was John Algeo alone discovering HPB's letter? > > 3. Is Mr Algeo's collection identical with the letters Boris de Zirkoff > was collecting for fifty years? > > 4. If so, why is Boris de Zirkoff not mentioned? > > 5. The announcements states that comments are inserted by Mr Algeo. > Do they replace the comments John Cooper as de Zirkoff's heir made? > > 6. Why is the research of Prof. Cooper not mentioned? > > 7. Since when is Annie Besant known as a trustworthy archivist? > What did Annie Besant with the three letters of W. Q. Judge, warning her > not to follow the lower astral way? > What did Annie Besant with HPB's missing manuscripts, such as > "The Esoteric Character of the Gospels?" > > 8. Annie Besant is known as a faker of HPB's manuscripts. > Does that mean that the mention of Annie Besant in the Wheaton announcement > is a guarantee that the letter edition contains also fakes? > > 9. Is HPB's unique and clever criticism of priestcrafts left untouched or > are the > passages are silently cut out for the sake of political/theosophcial > correctness? > > 10. What about the rest of the collection of HPB's letters which seem to be > now > in the possession of Gregory Tillett, Cooper's heir? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" > To: ".DanielHCaldwell" > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 4:21 PM > Subject: Theos-World The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861- 1879 > Available November 2003! > > > The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky > Volume I, 1861-1879 > > Available November 2003! > > For more details about this new volume > and ordering information, see: > > http://theosophical.org/resources/newreleases/ > > All students of Blavatsky's life and writings > will want to add this volume to their personal > library. > > Daniel > > > > ===== > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at > their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and > hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." > H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2 > -------------------------------------------------------------- > You can always access our main site by > simply typing into the URL address > bar the following 6 characters: > > hpb.cc > > Blavatsy Study Center now has a mirror > site at: > > http://www.theosophy.info/ > > -------------------------------------------------------------- From bill_meredith@earthlink.net Thu Nov 06 15:00:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bill_meredith@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 37336 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2003 23:00:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2003 23:00:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.247) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2003 23:00:05 -0000 Received: from 0-1pool39-24.nas1.albany1.ga.us.da.qwest.net ([65.137.39.24] helo=skate0w5w4rmsg) by firecrest.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AHt6h-00004Y-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 15:00:04 -0800 Message-ID: <001101c3a4b9$b9134a20$18278941@skate0w5w4rmsg> To: References: <3FAAB51F.2050401@idirect.ca> Subject: Re: Theos-World re Leon and "direct enough" Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 18:00:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-ELNK-Trace: aeda9581e82e22886a67a78112ff260e74bf435c0eb9d4786fe4c9b5aad131e2656ad3e00727c99719c9e15d1c7c699c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c From: "Bill Meredith" X-Originating-IP: 207.217.121.247 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=131669976 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith Very nice Mauri. Your last few letters to Lenny, Leon, Leonardo, Hermes, Len, L, etc, were clear enough invitations for us to examine "what IS in a name?" Even a name like "theosophy." Your feigned confusion as to who/what was the "essence" (read: esoteric) behind those various labels for what might essentially be one entity was very well done. Unfortunately, I doubt that Leon gave it a second thought, because I don't think Leon takes your writings seriously anymore (if he ever did). Probably Leon will sometimes admit that he doesn't know everything and could be wrong about the intrinsic value of your views. Either way, keep up the good effort, Mauri. (same root as Maurer isn't it?) :) Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mauri" To: Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:54 PM Subject: Theos-World re Leon and "direct enough" //cut// From netemara888@yahoo.com Thu Nov 06 17:23:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65106 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 01:23:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 01:23:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 01:23:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Nov 2003 01:13:31 -0000 Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 01:13:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-1879 Available November 2003! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5350 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.84 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, " Daniel I have two small volumes "HPB Speaks" and it is full of letters written before she went to India. Are the letters in the new book as in formerly unpublished letters? And went to look at some particulars about book but saw none. How many pages, cost etc. I know the picture on the cover is new to me I've not seen it before. And why would HPB want to be vegetarian? She lived in Russia as a young person and it is cold there, and it is not as popular in Europe or France as it became here in the States. Even now in France vegetarianism is just really catching on. The Satsangis there have a hard time finding stuff without eggs in it. When I lived in Paris Olcott and I never ate at the restaurants, he cooked and sang for me every day! Thanks Net H. Caldwell" wrote: > Frank, > > You ask: > > "Are the published HPB letters censored or not censored?" > > No, they are definitely not censored. > > You also ask: > > "Is HPB's unique and clever criticism of priestcrafts left untouched > or are the passages are silently cut out for the sake of > political/theosophcial correctness?" > > Everything is left untouched and nothing silently cut out. > > You also ask: > > "Annie Besant is known as a faker of HPB's manuscripts. Does that > mean that the mention of Annie Besant in the Wheaton announcement is > a guarantee that the letter edition contains also fakes?" > > I am not exactly sure what you actually mean by "fakes". > > Frank, once you actually get the volume, you tell me if there are any > such "fakes" in this volume. I am not aware of any such fakes in > this new volume of HPB's letters. > > Furthermore, I have either in photocopy or microfilm almost all of > these letters. I was collecting copies of all this material long > before I ever knew or even heard about John Cooper or John Algeo. > > I believe many of your other questions will be answered in the > introductory and prefatory material to this new volume of HPB's > letters. > > I repeat: All students of Blavatsky's life and writings will want to > add this volume to their personal library. > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER > http://hpb.cc > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" > wrote: > > The announcement text at the link below is alarming. > > For serious students of HPB some questions arise: > > > > 1. Are the published HPB letters censored or not censored? > > > > 2. Was John Algeo alone discovering HPB's letter? > > > > 3. Is Mr Algeo's collection identical with the letters Boris de > Zirkoff > > was collecting for fifty years? > > > > 4. If so, why is Boris de Zirkoff not mentioned? > > > > 5. The announcements states that comments are inserted by Mr Algeo. > > Do they replace the comments John Cooper as de Zirkoff's heir made? > > > > 6. Why is the research of Prof. Cooper not mentioned? > > > > 7. Since when is Annie Besant known as a trustworthy archivist? > > What did Annie Besant with the three letters of W. Q. Judge, > warning her > > not to follow the lower astral way? > > What did Annie Besant with HPB's missing manuscripts, such as > > "The Esoteric Character of the Gospels?" > > > > 8. Annie Besant is known as a faker of HPB's manuscripts. > > Does that mean that the mention of Annie Besant in the Wheaton > announcement > > is a guarantee that the letter edition contains also fakes? > > > > 9. Is HPB's unique and clever criticism of priestcrafts left > untouched or > > are the > > passages are silently cut out for the sake of political/theosophcial > > correctness? > > > > 10. What about the rest of the collection of HPB's letters which > seem to be > > now > > in the possession of Gregory Tillett, Cooper's heir? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > To: ".DanielHCaldwell" > > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 4:21 PM > > Subject: Theos-World The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861- > 1879 > > Available November 2003! > > > > > > The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky > > Volume I, 1861-1879 > > > > Available November 2003! > > > > For more details about this new volume > > and ordering information, see: > > > > http://theosophical.org/resources/newreleases/ > > > > All students of Blavatsky's life and writings > > will want to add this volume to their personal > > library. > > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > ===== > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at > > their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and > > hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." > > H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2 > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > You can always access our main site by > > simply typing into the URL address > > bar the following 6 characters: > > > > hpb.cc > > > > Blavatsy Study Center now has a mirror > > site at: > > > > http://www.theosophy.info/ > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- From netemara888@yahoo.com Thu Nov 06 17:30:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 21821 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 01:30:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 01:30:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 01:30:10 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Nov 2003 01:21:32 -0000 Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 01:21:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-1879 Available November 2003! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5338 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.86 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Daniel thanks for the info about the book. I want to know how many pages and if it is all unpublished materials. The photo on the cover is new to me, I've not seen it before. Is it really new unpublished letters? I have two small volumes "HPB Speaks" and it is all letters to and from HPB. There was a also a question here HPB being vegetarian. I have addressed that before. She was not. And why should she be? She was born and raised in Russia and it is cold there. She also lived in Europe and even when I was in France in this life being a vegetarian is not that popular. And as Satsangis Olcott and I could not find anything in restaurants that did not have eggs in it. So he cooked for me and sang to me at his apartment everyday! Netemara H. Caldwell" wrote: > Frank, > > You ask: > > "Are the published HPB letters censored or not censored?" > > No, they are definitely not censored. > > You also ask: > > "Is HPB's unique and clever criticism of priestcrafts left untouched > or are the passages are silently cut out for the sake of > political/theosophcial correctness?" > > Everything is left untouched and nothing silently cut out. > > You also ask: > > "Annie Besant is known as a faker of HPB's manuscripts. Does that > mean that the mention of Annie Besant in the Wheaton announcement is > a guarantee that the letter edition contains also fakes?" > > I am not exactly sure what you actually mean by "fakes". > > Frank, once you actually get the volume, you tell me if there are any > such "fakes" in this volume. I am not aware of any such fakes in > this new volume of HPB's letters. > > Furthermore, I have either in photocopy or microfilm almost all of > these letters. I was collecting copies of all this material long > before I ever knew or even heard about John Cooper or John Algeo. > > I believe many of your other questions will be answered in the > introductory and prefatory material to this new volume of HPB's > letters. > > I repeat: All students of Blavatsky's life and writings will want to > add this volume to their personal library. > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER > http://hpb.cc > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" > wrote: > > The announcement text at the link below is alarming. > > For serious students of HPB some questions arise: > > > > 1. Are the published HPB letters censored or not censored? > > > > 2. Was John Algeo alone discovering HPB's letter? > > > > 3. Is Mr Algeo's collection identical with the letters Boris de > Zirkoff > > was collecting for fifty years? > > > > 4. If so, why is Boris de Zirkoff not mentioned? > > > > 5. The announcements states that comments are inserted by Mr Algeo. > > Do they replace the comments John Cooper as de Zirkoff's heir made? > > > > 6. Why is the research of Prof. Cooper not mentioned? > > > > 7. Since when is Annie Besant known as a trustworthy archivist? > > What did Annie Besant with the three letters of W. Q. Judge, > warning her > > not to follow the lower astral way? > > What did Annie Besant with HPB's missing manuscripts, such as > > "The Esoteric Character of the Gospels?" > > > > 8. Annie Besant is known as a faker of HPB's manuscripts. > > Does that mean that the mention of Annie Besant in the Wheaton > announcement > > is a guarantee that the letter edition contains also fakes? > > > > 9. Is HPB's unique and clever criticism of priestcrafts left > untouched or > > are the > > passages are silently cut out for the sake of political/theosophcial > > correctness? > > > > 10. What about the rest of the collection of HPB's letters which > seem to be > > now > > in the possession of Gregory Tillett, Cooper's heir? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > To: ".DanielHCaldwell" > > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 4:21 PM > > Subject: Theos-World The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861- > 1879 > > Available November 2003! > > > > > > The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky > > Volume I, 1861-1879 > > > > Available November 2003! > > > > For more details about this new volume > > and ordering information, see: > > > > http://theosophical.org/resources/newreleases/ > > > > All students of Blavatsky's life and writings > > will want to add this volume to their personal > > library. > > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > ===== > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at > > their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and > > hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." > > H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2 > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > You can always access our main site by > > simply typing into the URL address > > bar the following 6 characters: > > > > hpb.cc > > > > Blavatsy Study Center now has a mirror > > site at: > > > > http://www.theosophy.info/ > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Thu Nov 06 17:53:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17734 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 01:52:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 01:52:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 01:52:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.123] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Nov 2003 01:40:31 -0000 Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 01:40:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-1879 Available November 2003! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6500 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.72 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dear Net, You wrote in part: "Daniel "I have two small volumes 'HPB Speaks' and it is full of letters written before she went to India. Are the letters in the new book as in formerly unpublished letters? And went to look at some particulars about book but saw none. How many pages, cost etc." The "new book" tries to place all of HPB's letters in chronological order as HPB wrote them. The letters cover the years 1861-1879. The book includes both previously published as well as never before published letters. The web page at: http://theosophical.org/resources/newreleases/ does not list pages or cost of book and at this point I do not have that information to give to you. Daniel http://hpb.cc --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "netemara888" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, " > Daniel > > I have two small volumes "HPB Speaks" and it is full of letters > written before she went to India. Are the letters in the new book as > in formerly unpublished letters? And went to look at some > particulars about book but saw none. How many pages, cost etc. > > I know the picture on the cover is new to me I've not seen it > before. And why would HPB want to be vegetarian? She lived in Russia > as a young person and it is cold there, and it is not as popular in > Europe or France as it became here in the States. Even now in France > vegetarianism is just really catching on. The Satsangis there have a > hard time finding stuff without eggs in it. When I lived in Paris > Olcott and I never ate at the restaurants, he cooked and sang for me > every day! > > Thanks > > Net > > > > H. Caldwell" wrote: > > Frank, > > > > You ask: > > > > "Are the published HPB letters censored or not censored?" > > > > No, they are definitely not censored. > > > > You also ask: > > > > "Is HPB's unique and clever criticism of priestcrafts left > untouched > > or are the passages are silently cut out for the sake of > > political/theosophcial correctness?" > > > > Everything is left untouched and nothing silently cut out. > > > > You also ask: > > > > "Annie Besant is known as a faker of HPB's manuscripts. Does that > > mean that the mention of Annie Besant in the Wheaton announcement > is > > a guarantee that the letter edition contains also fakes?" > > > > I am not exactly sure what you actually mean by "fakes". > > > > Frank, once you actually get the volume, you tell me if there are > any > > such "fakes" in this volume. I am not aware of any such fakes in > > this new volume of HPB's letters. > > > > Furthermore, I have either in photocopy or microfilm almost all of > > these letters. I was collecting copies of all this material long > > before I ever knew or even heard about John Cooper or John Algeo. > > > > I believe many of your other questions will be answered in the > > introductory and prefatory material to this new volume of HPB's > > letters. > > > > I repeat: All students of Blavatsky's life and writings will want > to > > add this volume to their personal library. > > > > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER > > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" > > > wrote: > > > The announcement text at the link below is alarming. > > > For serious students of HPB some questions arise: > > > > > > 1. Are the published HPB letters censored or not censored? > > > > > > 2. Was John Algeo alone discovering HPB's letter? > > > > > > 3. Is Mr Algeo's collection identical with the letters Boris de > > Zirkoff > > > was collecting for fifty years? > > > > > > 4. If so, why is Boris de Zirkoff not mentioned? > > > > > > 5. The announcements states that comments are inserted by Mr > Algeo. > > > Do they replace the comments John Cooper as de Zirkoff's heir > made? > > > > > > 6. Why is the research of Prof. Cooper not mentioned? > > > > > > 7. Since when is Annie Besant known as a trustworthy archivist? > > > What did Annie Besant with the three letters of W. Q. Judge, > > warning her > > > not to follow the lower astral way? > > > What did Annie Besant with HPB's missing manuscripts, such as > > > "The Esoteric Character of the Gospels?" > > > > > > 8. Annie Besant is known as a faker of HPB's manuscripts. > > > Does that mean that the mention of Annie Besant in the Wheaton > > announcement > > > is a guarantee that the letter edition contains also fakes? > > > > > > 9. Is HPB's unique and clever criticism of priestcrafts left > > untouched or > > > are the > > > passages are silently cut out for the sake of > political/theosophcial > > > correctness? > > > > > > 10. What about the rest of the collection of HPB's letters which > > seem to be > > > now > > > in the possession of Gregory Tillett, Cooper's heir? > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" > > > To: ".DanielHCaldwell" > > > Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 4:21 PM > > > Subject: Theos-World The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, > 1861- > > 1879 > > > Available November 2003! > > > > > > > > > The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky > > > Volume I, 1861-1879 > > > > > > Available November 2003! > > > > > > For more details about this new volume > > > and ordering information, see: > > > > > > http://theosophical.org/resources/newreleases/ > > > > > > All students of Blavatsky's life and writings > > > will want to add this volume to their personal > > > library. > > > > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at > > > their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and > > > hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." > > > H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > You can always access our main site by > > > simply typing into the URL address > > > bar the following 6 characters: > > > > > > hpb.cc > > > > > > Blavatsy Study Center now has a mirror > > > site at: > > > > > > http://www.theosophy.info/ > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Nov 06 17:59:31 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26153 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 01:59:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 01:59:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 01:58:59 -0000 Received: from [216.154.46.5] (helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AHvqa-0002Bv-4y for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 01:55:36 +0000 Message-ID: <3FAAFAE2.1010007@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:52:34 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re "seriously" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter3.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.6 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.9 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Bill wrote: <> In general, one might wonder what "seriously" might be seen to mean more specifically, by whoever, in whatever context ... ^:-/ ... Mauri From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Thu Nov 06 18:14:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98535 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 02:11:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 02:11:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 02:11:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.147] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Nov 2003 02:09:09 -0000 Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 02:09:08 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3FA9DE05.7040207@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 937 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.72 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > There were rules against cruelty to animals before you kill them, and > killing them in the most humane way possible. There was also an argument about whether or not one had to be vegetarian to be spiritual. That argument is not new as you assume. > Ah, taking the Noam Chomsky track of conveniently leaving out that the > people he was killing were trying very hard to kill or enslave him and > his people... Mope. Just wondering aloud if the fellow who came up with the admonition against killing was a reformer. I believe he was. > Can you say SELF DEFENSE? Or do you believe that people do not have > that basic right? Or is it just people you don't like who don't have > that basic right? You are making the erroneous assumption that people in an ancient and barbarous age had the same values as you have in this modern and barbarous age. From bill_meredith@earthlink.net Thu Nov 06 18:47:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bill_meredith@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 9407 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 02:47:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 02:47:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.248) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 02:47:29 -0000 Received: from 0-1pool38-212.nas1.albany1.ga.us.da.qwest.net ([65.137.38.212] helo=skate0w5w4rmsg) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AHwej-0001Nk-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:47:26 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01c3a4d9$5495d570$d4268941@skate0w5w4rmsg> To: References: <3FAAFAE2.1010007@idirect.ca> Subject: Re: Theos-World re "seriously" Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 21:46:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-ELNK-Trace: aeda9581e82e22886a67a78112ff260e74bf435c0eb9d4786fe4c9b5aad131e26934288f7b3e04e590cffa65b504a3bf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c From: "Bill Meredith" X-Originating-IP: 207.217.121.248 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=131669976 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith Indeed one might have that very wonder. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mauri" To: Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:52 PM Subject: Theos-World re "seriously" > Bill wrote: < Leon gave it a second thought, because I > don't think Leon takes your writings > seriously anymore (if he ever did). >> > > In general, one might wonder what "seriously" > might be seen to mean more specifically, by > whoever, in whatever context ... > > ^:-/ ... > Mauri > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bill_meredith@earthlink.net Thu Nov 06 18:54:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bill_meredith@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 40306 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 02:54:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 02:54:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.248) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 02:54:30 -0000 Received: from 0-1pool38-212.nas1.albany1.ga.us.da.qwest.net ([65.137.38.212] helo=skate0w5w4rmsg) by razorbill.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AHwlY-00036U-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 06 Nov 2003 18:54:29 -0800 Message-ID: <001501c3a4da$50b1a0f0$d4268941@skate0w5w4rmsg> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 21:53:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2727.1300 X-ELNK-Trace: aeda9581e82e22886a67a78112ff260e74bf435c0eb9d4786fe4c9b5aad131e216195daf8ba18a30311f6a257ed42016350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c From: "Bill Meredith" X-Originating-IP: 207.217.121.248 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=131669976 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith Some people actually eat cow. A Word on Cows DEMOCRAT You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. You feel guilty for being successful. Barbara Streisand sings for you. REPUBLICAN You have two cows. Your neighbor has none. So? SOCIALIST You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor. You form a cooperative to tell him how to manage his cow. COMMUNIST You have two cows. The government seizes both and provides you with milk. You wait in line for hours to get it. It is expensive and sour. CAPITALISM, AMERICAN STYLE You have two cows. You sell one, buy a bull, and build a herd of cows. DEMOCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE You have two cows. The government taxes you to the point you have to sell both to support a man in a foreign country who has only one cow, which was a gift from your government. BUREAUCRACY, AMERICAN STYLE You have two cows. The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, and then pours the milk down the drain. AMERICAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You sell one, lease it back to yourself and do an IPO on the 2nd one. You force the two cows to produce the milk of four cows. You are surprised when one cow drops dead. You spin an announcement to the analysts stating you have downsized and are reducing expenses. Your stock goes up. FRENCH CORPORATION You have two cows. You go on strike because you want three cows. You go to lunch and drink wine. Life is good. JAPANESE CORPORATION You have two cows. You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk. They learn to travel on unbelievably crowded trains. Most are at the top of their class at cow school. GERMAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You engineer them so they are all blond, drink lots of beer, give excellent quality milk, and run a hundred miles an hour. Unfortunately they also demand 13 weeks of vacation per year. ITALIAN CORPORATION You have two cows but you don't know where they are. While ambling around, you see a beautiful woman. You break for lunch. Life is good. RUSSIAN CORPORATION You have two cows. You have some vodka. You count them and learn you have five cows. You have some more vodka. You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. The Mafia shows up and takes over however many cows you really have. TALIBAN CORPORATION You have all the cows in Afghanistan, which are two. You don't milk them because you cannot touch any creature's private parts. Then you kill them and claim a US bomb blew them up while they were in the hospital. IRAQIAN CORPORATION You have two cows. They go into hiding. They send radio tapes of their mooing. POLISH CORPORATION You have two bulls. Employees are regularly maimed and killed attempting to milk them. FLORIDA CORPORATION You have a black cow and a brown cow. Everyone votes for the best looking one. Some of the people who like the brown one best, vote for the black one. Some people vote for both. Some people vote for neither. Some people can't figure out how to vote at all. Finally, a bunch of guys from out-of-state tell you which is the best-looking cow. NEW YORK CORPORATION You have fifteen million cows. You have to choose which one will be the leader of the herd, so you pick some fat cow from Arkansas From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Nov 06 20:15:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99720 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 04:15:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 04:15:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gatekeeper.look.ca) (207.136.80.8) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 04:15:57 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-33.look.ca ([216.154.45.80] helo=idirect.ca) by gatekeeper.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AHy2O-00037H-4e for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 04:15:56 +0000 Message-ID: <3FAB1BC5.6010406@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 23:12:53 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re cows and Theosophy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter1.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.4 required=6.5 tests=HTML_MESSAGE, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.8 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Bill wrote: <> What, no cows in relation to Theosophy? If all TS's and Theosophical discussion lists all had two cows, for a start ... then I suppose Dallas might right away point out that they should not be kept as pets, offering three hundred pages of quotes and references to back up that contention, and Leon might want to call them Coadunate and Consubstantial, and Mauri (that's me, I think ... ^:-/ ...) would of course speculate until they come home, and Bart and Steve would of course look after all the bullshit, I guess, etc, etc ... From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Nov 06 23:15:27 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 78496 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 07:15:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 07:15:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m06.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.161) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 07:15:26 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.12a.3460f9d0 (4238) for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 02:15:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <12a.3460f9d0.2cdca08b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 02:15:23 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re Leon and "direct enough" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 64.12.136.161 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Uh huh. Maybe, you hit the nail on the head. At least as deep as you seem to be able to go when discussing theosophy. But, I still don't know exactly what you are driving at. Whatever it is, I assume you are right. But then, you may be wrong. What more can I say? Wonderingly, Leo In a message dated 11/06/03 7:52:20 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >L wrote: <you are talking about. And, getting tired of >rereading old mail over and over again. So, >would appreciate getting a direct question >about any of the "issues" you might have >brought up in any of your posts -- so I can >give them a direct answer.>> > >Seems we might define "direct" somewhat >differently in that where I seem to ... On >second thought, no point in offering more >confusing qualifiers, at least not until ... >^:-/ ... I seem to recall having offered some >comments already about "strings" in relation >to Theosophy, among other things, all of >which, to me, seemed "direct enough," in a >sense (mostly "in agreement in a sense" with >many of your wordings). > >But, in case you're in the mood for some more >confusing qualifiers that might not have >enough "directness" in them to your liking: > >I wonder if the nature of "atma-buddhi" might >be kind of dependent, like everything else in >this "ordinary reality," on the "exoteric >reality" of "karma/maya," by which I'm saying >(or "my karma might be saying," I'm >speculating) that all karmic notions (and >some "less karmic" notions, as well, maybe >...) about the nature of "atma-buddhi" might >be inherently mayavic and basically >impermanent in as much as they are karmic in >their exoteric ("essentially dualistic") >aspects ... And so if "karma" (where the >quotes refer to a basically interpretive, or >"karmic/mayavic" nature of that word) ... and >so if "karma" per whatever >"individualistic/collective" >interpretive/intermediary variation has >outlined or realized or made real whatever >model or world view ("in one's life"), then, >(obviously?), such appearances and worlds and >worldviews are really engaging one's present >attention in terms of reality in as much as >if one has no other recourse to anything >"higher"---which "higher" one might, (eg...), >Theosophically model in terms of such as >"atma-buddhi" and "Monad," not that such >modeling isn't relevant enough and real >enough in terms of one's reality or "only >available reality." > >In other words, "as I currently tend to see >it," the Esoteric Tradition is all about >cultivating a meaningful or "meaningful >enough" "middle way" (or Theosophy, eg) >between what is "more" and "less" real/"real" >in the most apparently >p/Profoundest/r/Realest/t/Truest sense. > >Speculatively, >Mauri From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Fri Nov 07 01:07:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12254 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 09:07:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 09:07:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.180) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 09:07:53 -0000 Received: from adsl (200-101-233-002.fnsce7004.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.101.233.2]) by smtp4.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C5BE433EAB for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 07:07:21 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <002101c3a50e$9046f380$0301010a@adsl> To: Subject: indwelling God - by SSB Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 07:07:25 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "krishtar_a" X-Originating-IP: 200.199.201.180 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Krishtar wrote: ..................................................................... Sai Baba - Gita Reading for Today November 6, 2003 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Indwelling God >From time immemorial, the inquiry has been going on whether or not God exists. Once you have convinced yourself that he exists, the next step is to find the way to reach him. Just as was true in ancient times, this problem of how and where to find God has become a perplexing question for mankind today. To solve this problem, numerous sages made a determined effort to use all their skills and their penance to find the solution. These sages revealed where they searched and how they came to know about the existence of the effulgent Lord. They declared to the world at large: "O citizens, we have been able to perceive the transcendental principle which exists beyond this visible and created world. It will not be found in the external world or in outer space, but only within your own inner self. It is there in your inner vision within your soul, in the sacred heart inside your deepest self. It is there that the blissful Lord resides." This was their great discovery, that God dwells within the body itself. God is the imperishable one who lives within the perishable body. The body is inert; it does not know itself. In the Gita, God has been called the knower of the body and the one who gives consciousness to the body. To penetrate through the veils of ignorance that hide your truth, you must make a determined effort to discover the immortal Lord residing resplendently in your mortal body. Not only must you find the Lord installed in your own body and the bodies of other creatures, but you must also find him installed in every object, in every thing. He is the indweller of all the five elements, space, air, fire, water and earth. He is the very basis of the creation. To find a diamond you must dig deep within the earth. You will not find it hanging outside on a tree. In the same way, you will not find this most valuable diamond which is the Lord, lying around somewhere outside, easily visible to all. With the help of the teachings of great souls you will have to make the effort to find God within. The body is not an ordinary thing. It is the temple of God, it is a chariot which carries the Lord. In the world, which can be thought of as a grand village, the Lord is being taken in procession everywhere in this chariot called the body. Sri Sathya Sai Baba [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Fri Nov 07 01:20:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 23741 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 09:20:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 09:20:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 09:20:14 -0000 Received: from adsl (200-101-233-002.fnsce7004.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.101.233.2]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4D78441D3 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 07:20:06 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <005401c3a510$49e1cb20$0301010a@adsl> To: Subject: the 2 cows Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 07:19:46 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "krishtar_a" X-Originating-IP: 200.199.201.164 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi I just bursted out laughing at this " 2 cows stories " and so to Mauri=B4= s comment. Krishtar [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 07 02:10:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7306 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 10:10:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 10:10:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 10:10:08 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a12fbd.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.161.47.189]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 18C41480133 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:10:07 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001301c3a517$4f4b6d80$bd2fa150@khidr> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:10:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Originating-IP: 193.162.153.2 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo everyone, A view: It could be that a hardcore vegetarian Theosophist quite often resembles a refined barbarian with either no or only a small amount of understanding of social behaviour. True ? The readers will have to decide that. from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "stevestubbs" To: Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 3:09 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > There were rules against cruelty to animals before you kill them, > and > > killing them in the most humane way possible. > > There was also an argument about whether or not one had to be > vegetarian to be spiritual. That argument is not new as you assume. > > > Ah, taking the Noam Chomsky track of conveniently leaving out that > the > > people he was killing were trying very hard to kill or enslave him > and > > his people... > > Mope. Just wondering aloud if the fellow who came up with the > admonition against killing was a reformer. I believe he was. > > > Can you say SELF DEFENSE? Or do you believe that people do not have > > that basic right? Or is it just people you don't like who don't > have > > that basic right? > > You are making the erroneous assumption that people in an ancient and > barbarous age had the same values as you have in this modern and > barbarous age. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 07 02:52:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 22470 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 10:52:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 10:52:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 10:52:01 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.1f0.12cdb360 (4238) for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 05:51:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1f0.12cdb360.2cdcd345@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 05:51:49 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re Leon and "direct enough" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 152.163.225.103 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 This is even better, Bill. You've pinned down the idea I have been trying to get across since I first came across Mauri's fixations on labels like esoteric, exoteric, karmic, mayavic, etc., etc., (and their self contradictory combinations) -- that never says anything directly to the theosophical ideas or concepts (so labeled in endless and meaningless redundancies) as they are being presented or being discussed. As you imply, Theosophy (or a rose) by any other name would still smell (and speak) the same. Maybe, that was the point I tried to make to Mauri in a kind of roundabout way -- by showing that whatever we call ourselves, or who we are, has nothing to do with the things or ideas we are talking about. And, labeling a theosophical theory, or concept as esoteric or exoteric, karmic or mayavic, or as said by someone in particular, has nothing to do with the meaning or usefulness (or lack of both) of what has been presented or is in discussion. Being obsessed with considering labels as being important, does nothing more than foul up the atmosphere of serious inquiry, and divert peoples minds from the really important ideas that need to be explored in much greater depth. What else is the value of these open forums that are based on particular theme's? If we want to increase our knowledge through any dialogue, isn't it better to present a direct opinion backed up by some sort of logic, whether right or wrong, so we can hear what the other guy has to say from his point of view? While it's nice to hear someone say they agree with you, I don't think that -- without critical confirmation -- warrants anything more than a grunt. And, if they say they disagree, what more can one answer except to ask, why? All the rest of the rambling in circular redundancies and speculative confusion does nothing to add to our understanding of the true nature of reality, or get us any closer to self realization... Which is the point of all this, isn't it? In that sense, however, I do take Mauri seriously, by trying to get him to come to some definite conclusions... And, at the same time I recognize that he doesn't take himself so seriously, and it tickles me to play with (and even provoke) him sometimes... As I also think he does with me -- since I have a feeling that he really, under all that speculative beating around the bush, wants to know (or at least, how to find) the truth. As for the intrinsic value of Mauri's views, I don't think I have any thoughts about that, since, judging from Mauri's speculations and qualifiers, I don't see that he has any definite or particular views... Which, in a way, is good -- since it leaves him open to accept or reject any view he chooses... Which is also bad -- since it leaves him (and anyone who tries to follow his ramblings) spinning in circles? So, while I think, with respect to my interpretations of theosophical metaphysics, that I am right in almost everything I say and idea I present (since behind it all lies a great deal of careful study and thought) -- the greatest gi ft I could ever get is for someone to "prove" or show me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, where I may be wrong. To constantly change my views, each time someone proved me wrong -- is what I have been doing for the past 50 years -- mainly with skeptics, agnostics, or speculators like Mauri, who kept poking, chipping, and polishing around the edges of what I thought I knew. I guess that's why I keep getting sucked into these long and sometimes pointless commentaries with or about Mauri. (Although it can become a drag after a while, there's always hope that we all might learn something new. :-) Actually, Mauri is a derivative of Maurice which is also a derivative of Maurer which is the Germanic word for mason or builder. Actually, HPB was a Friemaurer or Freemason* (and her real guru was a Chohan or builder who stood behind the Master Morya). Also, I am a direct descendant of Moses who was the first Mason (Kohane in Hebrew), and my father Murray (nee Mosher or Moses) was a 33rd degree Freemason. So, maybe we all have a karmic connection. (I'm sure Mauri would be happy to hear that.:-) Best wishes, LHM *http://members.aol.com/dilloo/Blavapatent.html In a message dated 11/07/03 1:12:55 AM, bill_meredith@earthlink.net writes: >Very nice Mauri. >. >Your last few letters to Lenny, Leon, Leonardo, Hermes, Len, L, etc, were >clear enough invitations for us to examine "what IS in a name?" Even a name >like "theosophy." Your feigned confusion as to who/what was the "essence" >(read: esoteric) behind those various labels for what might essentially be >one entity was very well done. Unfortunately, I doubt that Leon gave it a >second thought, because I don't think Leon takes your writings seriously >anymore (if he ever did). Probably Leon will sometimes admit that he >doesn't know everything and could be wrong about the intrinsic value of >your views. > >Either way, keep up the good effort, Mauri. (same root as Maurer isn't >it?) > >:) > > > > > >Bill > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Mauri" > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 3:54 PM > >Subject: Theos-World re Leon and "direct enough" > > > >//cut// From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 07 03:51:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25543 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 11:51:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 11:51:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 11:51:31 -0000 Received: from pool0033.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.33] helo=DALLAS) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AI59E-0007T0-00; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 03:51:29 -0800 To: "AA-BN--Study" Subject: RE: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 03:51:17 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c3a525$765830d0$210cf4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <001301c3a517$4f4b6d80$bd2fa150@khidr> X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.232 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Friday, November 07, 2003 Dear Friends: Re: Diet and vegetarianism. Could we not conclude there is a difference between motives?=20=20 To be a non-meat eater may imply pity and compassion for the brutes, or it can mean a selfish desire to purify one's bodily and physical make up -- for some personal purpose, whether supposedly occult, or esoteric or whatever. The main point is that we use and support our bodies through food based on our knowledge of dietary results. How accurate are such results? Who has tested them? What and why does THEOSOPHY recommend vegetarianism?=20 Might it have something to do with Monadic evolution and the part we play as "Manasic" beings in this?=20=20 The theosophical premise is that we, as an eternal Monad, living at this period in a specific body, which we have "built" out of our past karmic relations with other "monads of lesser experience," act now, today, as a basis for their progress. We depend on them for providing us with a physical and astral basis for reincarnation, and they depend on us for spiritual or psychic guidance and leadership. This is all internal to us, of course. But it worth considering as theosophy presents these considerations. Is being a VEGAN recommended? Are dairy products "forbidden?" etc... Consider carefully how the process of milk and eggs, etc are now mechanized much to the unnatural distress of the animal involved -- a slavery that approaches the greatest indifference to the actual well being of those animals that are forced to assist in producing those foods -- and when judged to be uneconomical, they are executed ,and their meat offered as food on the markets of the world. Quite a generous repayment for that slavery, don't you think? Can one imagine the imprint of such living and forced death psychically, on the atoms and monadic elementals involved in the forms of those foods? And they go into us, and there in our bodies, they find a refuge for similar psychic influences.=20 Mr. Judge succinctly offered a common sense solution. He said in one place:: What comes out of a man's mouth is more important than what goes into it. Occultly THEOSOPHY says that meats feed the Kamic (desire and passion) nature. Are we in "control" of our psychic desires and passions (Kama)? What is the nature of our "mind?" How do we use and direct it? Who is the director of our minds? Is our psychic and moral nature involved? And on that basis what would be an ideal diet?=20 As to our bodies. We all know that very few of us are medical men or women, and, we know more or less of the science that works in and through the body. Yet with all that detail, our bodies (even those of the most ignorant of us) carry on the intricate process of digestion, redesigning, and distribution of nutrients through our blood system, the elimination of spent or undesirable substances, and all this that passes through the alimentary canal is subject to the knowledge and wisdom of the bodily operations of which we are largely ignorant. THEOSOPHY points to the more subtle electro-magnetic "astral body," on which the physical body is based molecularly, and cellularly speaking. It also speaks of the influence that our feelings and thoughts (motives) have on those energic bodies. So we have the glimmerings of a basis for controlling that which we place in our mouths as food. It also recognizes the innate intelligence operating in a body, when healthy or diseased, and respects it.=20 THEOSOPHY is not dogmatic about anything, leaving to each individual the responsibility for assisting or impeding their own bodily states. It does indicate that there is much more to the selection of one's diet than mere physiological, scientific reasons. These ideas merely open some doors for our consideration in how we treat ourselves.=20 The inner attitude of a person is of prime consideration and that is largely based on the aspirations and motives one employs in living one's personal life. The responsibility we have for our bodies is to supply them with the best available nourishment, taking all we learn into consideration. Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Morten=20 Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:10 AM To:=20 Subject: En: vegetarianism Hallo everyone, A view: It could be that a hardcore vegetarian Theosophist quite often resembles a refined barbarian with either no or only a small amount of understanding of social behaviour. True ? The readers will have to decide that. from M.=20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 07 04:31:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98137 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 12:31:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 12:31:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 12:31:57 -0000 Received: from pool0033.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.33] helo=DALLAS) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AI5mG-0004uQ-00; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 04:31:48 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Food for thought Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 04:31:22 -0800 Message-ID: <000701c3a52b$159ea0c0$210cf4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.232 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 7 2003 Dear Fali: Re: INTUITION Here are a few quotations from THEOSOPHY literature on this subject. It requires close study and testing. Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: fali=20 Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:29 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] Food for thought Two questions and their possible answers: - 1. When do you know when your intuition is speaking and when your "ego" is talking? 2. As a human being, involved necessarily in form, how can I "get away from" those things that the world has to offer? Briefly, if we leave a situation, event, relationship better than before, then it is immaterial if our intuition or ego or both were at work. If the reverse occurs, then we do need to discuss what you have raised. The formula given to us is: "Seated in Being perform action", which nullifies the residual attachment (cause of pain/suffering) to the particular form involved in the action. Being is like an invisible sword that intervenes and chops up the action into tiny units that cannot aggregate to form residual attachment. A child easily digests minced meat, but would choke on the same meat if fed in a lump. Being is really chopped up time in action ( in Nature) and is activated more and more in us as we acquire a more balanced consciousness that does not allow the imbalancing attachment ( physical/emotional/mental) beyond a certain danger point before it is terminated by the awakened Being that is Balance personified. Fali From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 07 05:25:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86917 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 13:25:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 13:25:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 13:25:52 -0000 Received: from khidr (0x50a12fbd.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [80.161.47.189]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 347362629C0 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:25:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <006301c3a532$a7bbdac0$bd2fa150@khidr> To: References: <000601c3a525$765830d0$210cf4d8@DALLAS> Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:25:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Originating-IP: 193.162.153.4 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo Dallas and all of you, My views: Generally I agree a lot with your below words. But what about the Theosophist, who do not have to eat anything ? Such a Theosophist will have to consider who to mingle with and who not. The questions are: Should I mingle with the Theosophist to be sweet towars the Theosophists and his or her good deeds, (i.e. not eating meat and all.) Should I mingle with the barbarians - the meat-eaters to help them - or shouldn't I ? Or should I mingle with both groups - and is it possible under all circumstances ? And maybe I shouldn't mingle with such disbelievers at all ? Eating vegetables is better than eating meat - I agree. Milk are allowed - we are in Kali-Yuga, the time of the Master Avatar Krishna. (By the way the notorious Sai Baba allows milk within vegatarianism. Baba also allows - Sattwic - food, saying there is no rule of thumb on eating meat or not, but not eating is best.) Anyway - eating too much is unhealthy. Sometimes even eating is unhealthy. Bad thoughts are much worse than wrong eating-patterns ! Happy smiles are offered... from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message ----- From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" To: "AA-BN--Study" Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 12:51 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World En: vegetarianism > Friday, November 07, 2003 > > Dear Friends: > > Re: Diet and vegetarianism. > > Could we not conclude there is a difference between motives? > > To be a non-meat eater may imply pity and compassion for the brutes, or > it can mean a selfish desire to purify one's bodily and physical make up > -- for some personal purpose, whether supposedly occult, or esoteric or > whatever. > > The main point is that we use and support our bodies through food based > on our knowledge of dietary results. How accurate are such results? > Who has tested them? > > What and why does THEOSOPHY recommend vegetarianism? > > Might it have something to do with Monadic evolution and the part we > play as "Manasic" beings in this? > > The theosophical premise is that we, as an eternal Monad, living at this > period in a specific body, which we have "built" out of our past karmic > relations with other "monads of lesser experience," act now, today, as > a basis for their progress. We depend on them for providing us with a > physical and astral basis for reincarnation, and they depend on us for > spiritual or psychic guidance and leadership. This is all internal to > us, of course. But it worth considering as theosophy presents these > considerations. > > Is being a VEGAN recommended? Are dairy products "forbidden?" etc... > Consider carefully how the process of milk and eggs, etc are now > mechanized much to the unnatural distress of the animal involved -- a > slavery that approaches the greatest indifference to the actual well > being of those animals that are forced to assist in producing those > foods -- and when judged to be uneconomical, they are executed ,and > their meat offered as food on the markets of the world. Quite a > generous repayment for that slavery, don't you think? Can one imagine > the imprint of such living and forced death psychically, on the atoms > and monadic elementals involved in the forms of those foods? And they > go into us, and there in our bodies, they find a refuge for similar > psychic influences. > > Mr. Judge succinctly offered a common sense solution. He said in one > place:: What comes out of a man's mouth is more important than what > goes into it. > > Occultly THEOSOPHY says that meats feed the Kamic (desire and passion) > nature. Are we in "control" of our psychic desires and passions (Kama)? > > What is the nature of our "mind?" How do we use and direct it? Who is > the director of our minds? Is our psychic and moral nature involved? And > on that basis what would be an ideal diet? > > As to our bodies. We all know that very few of us are medical men or > women, and, we know more or less of the science that works in and > through the body. Yet with all that detail, our bodies (even those of > the most ignorant of us) carry on the intricate process of digestion, > redesigning, and distribution of nutrients through our blood system, the > elimination of spent or undesirable substances, and all this that passes > through the alimentary canal is subject to the knowledge and wisdom of > the bodily operations of which we are largely ignorant. > > THEOSOPHY points to the more subtle electro-magnetic "astral body," on > which the physical body is based molecularly, and cellularly speaking. > It also speaks of the influence that our feelings and thoughts (motives) > have on those energic bodies. So we have the glimmerings of a basis for > controlling that which we place in our mouths as food. It also > recognizes the innate intelligence operating in a body, when healthy or > diseased, and respects it. > > THEOSOPHY is not dogmatic about anything, leaving to each individual the > responsibility for assisting or impeding their own bodily states. It > does indicate that there is much more to the selection of one's diet > than mere physiological, scientific reasons. These ideas merely open > some doors for our consideration in how we treat ourselves. > > The inner attitude of a person is of prime consideration and that is > largely based on the aspirations and motives one employs in living one's > personal life. > > The responsibility we have for our bodies is to supply them with the > best available nourishment, taking all we learn into consideration. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > ============================ > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Morten > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:10 AM > To: > Subject: En: vegetarianism > > Hallo everyone, > > A view: > > It could be that a hardcore vegetarian Theosophist quite often resembles > a > refined barbarian with either no or only a small amount of understanding > of > social behaviour. True ? > > The readers will have to decide that. > > from > M. > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 07 07:11:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 69076 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 15:11:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 15:11:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.101) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 15:11:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.144] by n33.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Nov 2003 15:11:33 -0000 Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:11:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001301c3a517$4f4b6d80$bd2fa150@khidr> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 518 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.101 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > It could be that a hardcore vegetarian Theosophist quite often resembles a > refined barbarian with either no or only a small amount of understanding of > social behaviour. True ? Only if the hardcore theosophist in question eats with his fingers and wipes his mouth on his sleeve. Having never met any list members in person, I cannot say whether anyone here fits that description. Does anyone want to step forward? From listmail@theosophist.org Fri Nov 07 08:59:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: listmail@theosophist.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64404 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 16:59:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 16:59:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO host.theosophist.org) (64.91.254.125) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 16:59:33 -0000 Received: from [167.167.187.206] (helo=scribe) by host.theosophist.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AIA0L-0004xN-Hh for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:02:37 -0500 To: Subject: making demands and relationships with others Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 08:59:14 -0800 Message-ID: <004001c3a550$7da073e0$cebba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <006301c3a532$a7bbdac0$bd2fa150@khidr> Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.theosophist.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - theosophist.org From: "Eldon B tucker" X-Originating-IP: 64.91.254.125 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=141100620 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker I'd say that life is imperfect and that in order to exist we have to consum= e resources and make demands on the world. That includes taking food, drink, and air. We can be modest in our demands and exist in a mostly kind and cooperative relationship with life or we can fill our minds with a dog-eat-dog mentality and be a predator to everyone and everything around us. It's not necessary to draw a distinction between people based upon whether they incorporate a particular virtue into their outer lives -- like a vegetarian diet -- or not. These external trappings will fix themselves ove= r time. What's important is to recognize the spiritual fire in the other's eyes. We cannot cause the initial spark, though; that's up to the other's inner nature, wholly self-initiated. Looking at another, it's the inner light that's important. We can respond t= o that, even if it's but a spark. We don't need to tell someone to tie their shoelaces, brush their teeth, cut down on the hamburger diet, or read good books. We're not their Mother. The important communication is in terms of a sympathetic vibration, a resonance between their creative fire and ours.=20 Sometimes it may be useful to talk about the personal and social benefits o= f a vegetarian diet. Other times, it's not important. The same is true of any area of self-improvement or the cultivation of any particular virtue. Preaching does little good. Living the life without trying to win converts does much better, teaching by example rather than by sermon. If the subject of vegetarianism comes up, for instance, it's a suitable topic; if it is simply thrown into someone's face to put him or her down, then it becomes a form of bragging and name-calling. Another question regards what friends we keep. The people we associate have an effect upon us. They can drag us down or uplift us. Some can act as mentors and hasten our learning of difficult things. Others can act as bad influences, leading us into wasting our intelligence, energy, and the scarcest resource of all: time. We can hang out with troubled people with the idea that our influence will help them. This is a form of self-sacrifice. If we are intentionally helpin= g them and they are trying to improve, it is good; if they are victimizing themselves and us and have no intention of changing, it's not good. We can also hang out with people that aren't troubled but are learning from us as a role model for something they'd like to know or be able to do. Not every helping relationship is a sick person dragging us down, unwilling to improve. Some are healthy, growing people that are taking initiative to improve themselves and giving us something positive in return for our assistance. Little is learned by hanging around with people exactly like ourselves, avoiding the outside world, and putting blinders on. It's possible that theosophical students do this in their groups at times. But such is not always the case. We don't need a student/teacher relationship all the time. A student/student relationship is helpful too. A group of theosophical students, peers, sharing what they know, can progress, come to new understandings, and make progress in both their learning and lives. I agree that thoughts (and feelings) are more important that the specifics of what we may have eaten for lunch. Giving a vegetarian some french-fries with a trace of animal shortening (from the grease it was fried in) may be bad. Far worse is deliberately provoking someone into a burning, angry outburst for the simple (and malicious) joy of watching them get mad. The excuse that one is playing the role of a spiritual teacher and training the other person is ridiculous, only convincing the person making it. On a mailing list, we should always remember we're talking to real people and treat them the same as we would if we were standing face-to-face. -- Eldon From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 07 10:40:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 70919 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 18:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 18:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.126) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 18:40:53 -0000 Received: from pool1215.cvx16-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.54.195] helo=DALLAS) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AIBXP-00076C-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 10:40:51 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:40:33 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01c3a55e$a518a330$b1d8b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <006301c3a532$a7bbdac0$bd2fa150@khidr> X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.126 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 7 2003 Dear Friends: Re: Meeting others: Examine your own motives. Are they selfish or unselfish?=20=20 Is your contribution asked for, is it useful, is it of service to others? Or are you forcing it on others? Of course they have to choose to read or not to read also.=20 No one is asked to pretend to be something other than what they are. That is dissimulation and worthless in my esteem. The question is always of moderation in all things.=20 Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Morten Nymann Olesen [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk]=20 Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 5:26 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World En: vegetarianism Hallo Dallas and all of you, My views: Generally I agree a lot with your below words. But what about the Theosophist, who do not have to eat anything ? Such a Theosophist will have to consider who to mingle with and who not. The questions are: Should I mingle with the Theosophist to be sweet towars the Theosophists and his or her good deeds, (i.e. not eating meat and all.) Should I mingle with the barbarians - the meat-eaters to help them - or shouldn't I ? Or should I mingle with both groups - and is it possible under all circumstances ? And maybe I shouldn't mingle with such disbelievers at all ? Eating vegetables is better than eating meat - I agree. Milk are allowed - we are in Kali-Yuga, the time of the Master Avatar Krishna. (By the way the notorious Sai Baba allows milk within vegatarianism. Baba also allows - Sattwic - food, saying there is no rule of thumb on eating meat or not, but not eating is best.) Anyway - eating too much is unhealthy. Sometimes even eating is unhealthy. Bad thoughts are much worse than wrong eating-patterns ! Happy smiles are offered... from M. Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" To: "AA-BN--Study" Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 12:51 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World En: vegetarianism > Friday, November 07, 2003 > > Dear Friends: > > Re: Diet and vegetarianism. > > Could we not conclude there is a difference between motives? > > To be a non-meat eater may imply pity and compassion for the brutes, or > it can mean a selfish desire to purify one's bodily and physical make up > -- for some personal purpose, whether supposedly occult, or esoteric or > whatever. > > The main point is that we use and support our bodies through food based > on our knowledge of dietary results. How accurate are such results? > Who has tested them? > > What and why does THEOSOPHY recommend vegetarianism? > > Might it have something to do with Monadic evolution and the part we > play as "Manasic" beings in this? > > The theosophical premise is that we, as an eternal Monad, living at this > period in a specific body, which we have "built" out of our past karmic > relations with other "monads of lesser experience," act now, today, as > a basis for their progress. We depend on them for providing us with a > physical and astral basis for reincarnation, and they depend on us for > spiritual or psychic guidance and leadership. This is all internal to > us, of course. But it worth considering as theosophy presents these > considerations. > > Is being a VEGAN recommended? Are dairy products "forbidden?" etc... > Consider carefully how the process of milk and eggs, etc are now > mechanized much to the unnatural distress of the animal involved -- a > slavery that approaches the greatest indifference to the actual well > being of those animals that are forced to assist in producing those > foods -- and when judged to be uneconomical, they are executed ,and > their meat offered as food on the markets of the world. Quite a > generous repayment for that slavery, don't you think? Can one imagine > the imprint of such living and forced death psychically, on the atoms > and monadic elementals involved in the forms of those foods? And they > go into us, and there in our bodies, they find a refuge for similar > psychic influences. > > Mr. Judge succinctly offered a common sense solution. He said in one > place:: What comes out of a man's mouth is more important than what > goes into it. > > Occultly THEOSOPHY says that meats feed the Kamic (desire and passion) > nature. Are we in "control" of our psychic desires and passions (Kama)? > > What is the nature of our "mind?" How do we use and direct it? Who is > the director of our minds? Is our psychic and moral nature involved? And > on that basis what would be an ideal diet? > > As to our bodies. We all know that very few of us are medical men or > women, and, we know more or less of the science that works in and > through the body. Yet with all that detail, our bodies (even those of > the most ignorant of us) carry on the intricate process of digestion, > redesigning, and distribution of nutrients through our blood system, the > elimination of spent or undesirable substances, and all this that passes > through the alimentary canal is subject to the knowledge and wisdom of > the bodily operations of which we are largely ignorant. > > THEOSOPHY points to the more subtle electro-magnetic "astral body," on > which the physical body is based molecularly, and cellularly speaking. > It also speaks of the influence that our feelings and thoughts (motives) > have on those energic bodies. So we have the glimmerings of a basis for > controlling that which we place in our mouths as food. It also > recognizes the innate intelligence operating in a body, when healthy or > diseased, and respects it. > > THEOSOPHY is not dogmatic about anything, leaving to each individual the > responsibility for assisting or impeding their own bodily states. It > does indicate that there is much more to the selection of one's diet > than mere physiological, scientific reasons. These ideas merely open > some doors for our consideration in how we treat ourselves. > > The inner attitude of a person is of prime consideration and that is > largely based on the aspirations and motives one employs in living one's > personal life. > > The responsibility we have for our bodies is to supply them with the > best available nourishment, taking all we learn into consideration. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Morten > Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:10 AM > To: > Subject: En: vegetarianism > > Hallo everyone, > > A view: > > It could be that a hardcore vegetarian Theosophist quite often resembles > a > refined barbarian with either no or only a small amount of understanding > of > social behaviour. True ? > > The readers will have to decide that. > > from > M. > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 From gregory@zeta.org.au Fri Nov 07 14:42:15 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: gregory@zeta.org.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85327 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2003 22:42:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2003 22:42:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailman.zeta.org.au) (203.26.10.16) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2003 22:42:11 -0000 Received: from [61.8.1.5] (ppp5.dyn1.pacific.net.au [61.8.1.5]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3p2/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25142 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 2003 09:42:08 +1100 Message-Id: <200311072242.JAA25142@mailman.zeta.org.au> Subject: The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-18 Date: Sat, 8 Nov 03 09:45:35 +1100 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" From: X-Originating-IP: 203.26.10.16 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=796991 As the Literary Executor of the Estate of the late Dr John Cooper I was naturally interested to read of the forthcoming publication of a volume which, at least on the basis of the brief information published on theos-talk, sounds identical to the volume compiled by Dr Cooper prior to his untimely death. I would welcome to the following questions: 1. Can I assume that no use has been made of any material which derives from Dr Cooper's manuscript or research, for which he held, and his family now holds, all intellectual property rights? 2. Can I assume that no use has been made of any letters which were not known prior to Dr Cooper's research, which were discovered by him, which had never previously been published, and which are available only in his manuscript or in his doctoral thesis? 3. Can I assume that nothing of Dr Cooper's research (except in the strictly limited amounts allowable by international and national copyright law, and appropriately acknowledged) is used in the new work? I note that Dr Cooper's family was fully prepared to make all material relating to the HPB correspondence available for publication by the Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton, and to cooperate in such publication on the conditions only that (i) no editing, amending or alteration would be made to such work except with the permission of the family, and (ii) that the intellectual property rights of the beneficiaries of Dr Cooper's estate were recognized and acknowledged. These conditions reflect the concerns Dr Cooper had expressed to a number of people that there would be some editing or altering of HPB's writings. The Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton, appeared entirely unwilling to accept these conditions. I look forward to seeing the new publication and to comparing it carefully with Dr Cooper's work. I am sure it is entirely unnecessary, in this case, to state that the rights of Dr Cooper's family will be asserted and defended at law in any breach of their intellectual property rights. Dr Gregory Tillett From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 07 20:49:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 76586 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2003 04:49:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2003 04:49:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2003 04:49:18 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.19e.1c7030ad (16781) for ; Fri, 7 Nov 2003 23:49:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19e.1c7030ad.2cddcfc3@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 23:49:07 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re cows and Theosophy To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 45 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 64.12.136.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Hey Mauri, Moo, ha, ha... I guess we finally got it. (And, maybe, you had it all the time.) But, it really doesn't matter what we say on these forums... Since, except for the one we are talking to, it all goes in one cows ear or the other, swishes around, and comes out from both the front and rear end (Butt/but...) upside down, inside out, and backwards. I hope everyone who reads this gets the deep profundity and wisdom behind these coadunate but not consubstantial words -- which may be esoteric/exoteric, if not karmic/mayavic. Uh... Yeah... Maybe. (Or, did I say that already?) Why not? <\":-}> In a message dated 11/07/03 3:45:09 AM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >Bill wrote: <> > >What, no cows in relation to Theosophy? >If all TS's and Theosophical discussion lists >all had two cows, for a start ... >then I suppose Dallas might right away point >out that they should not be kept as pets, >offering three hundred pages of quotes and >references to back up that contention, and >Leon might want to call them Coadunate and >Consubstantial, and Mauri (that's me, I think >... ^:-/ ...) would of course speculate until >they come home, and Bart and Steve would of >course look after all the bullshit, I guess, >etc, etc ... > From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Nov 07 20:49:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65394 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2003 04:49:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2003 04:49:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gozer.look.ca) (207.136.80.10) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2003 04:49:56 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-04-24.look.ca ([216.154.45.167] helo=idirect.ca) by gozer.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AIL2m-0003tq-NS for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 08 Nov 2003 04:49:53 +0000 Message-ID: <3FAC753C.2010104@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 23:46:52 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re various, LHM and .. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter2.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-99.6 required=6.5 tests=TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.10 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn LHM wrote: <> In a sense, I tend to agree, I think I know what you mean, but I tend to disagree in the sense that, over a period of time, reincarnations, manvantaras, etc, the nature of "who we are" might tend to vary, generally speaking, I suspect, and that, along with those variations "the things or ideas we are talking about" might also change. If you, LHM, sign off a particular post as "Lenny," and if I happen to find that post somewhat more agreeable to my speculative tendencies (as compared to some other posts from a "Leon,"---though I might suspect they're the "same person") then why shouldn't I respond to "THAT particular Lenny," maybe even pointing out some differences I might tend to see between "that Lenny's" and "some other Leon's" posts? If we wanted to, we could all send in different kinds of wordings under different pseudonyms, motivations, perspectives, etc, so ... <> I tend to agree in a sense, but I also tend to think, speculate that all words, equations, models, worldviews, ABC's, Theosophies, etc, are, in a sense, labels that people in general use in various kinds of efforts to communicate; and I tend to see such labels of all kinds as being essentially karmic, mayavic dependent arisings that one might want to transcend at some point, rather than wanting to go on "proving" them or "proving about" them in relation to whatever other labels, motives, worldviews, etc, for which one might have some kind of mayavic, karmically influenced "preference for" (ie, as if one were a dog chasing its tail in endless circles). I wonder if that kind of chasing after "proofs" within "ordinary reality" has an essentially circular, never ending aspect to it, in that, as far as I know, there's already 5 equational proofs by way of "string theory" about the compatibility (in whatever apparent/interpretive terms) between relativity and quantum mechanics (ie, one might wonder if such proof making might be found to be never ending, circular, comparable to a dog chasing its tail ...). <> I think I just responded to that. <> I think I already responded to that. <> I tend to agree, in a sense ... <> I have lots of "definite conclusions (in quotes!)," L, but seem to have trouble with certain kinds of unqualified definite conclusions in general, in that the latter never seem to be "definite enough, in a sense." I figure that might be partly why I have an interest in the Esoteric Tradition. Which interest, incidentally, seems to have a couple of aspects that come to mind, for a start: "definite" and definite, so I might add: "qualified" and qualified, "speculative" and speculative; ie, since I tend to see myself as being in an "essentially dualistic" world, seems to me that I tend to have two basic choice-poles by way of: reserved, or not- or less-reserved 'opinions/"opinions,"' which process, in practice, seems to often amount to a kind of speculative rambling in circles on these list because, thinking that "students of Theosophy ought to know better," I tend to wind up, apparently, offering various interpretive samples (by way of my "reserved/speculative self") to the extent that no matter how many or whatever kinds of qualifiers and explanations I come up with, as long as I refuse to follow enough of generally accepted standards/definitions/values (about whatever) past a certain point, or "past a certain point," in a sense, then of course I don't make sense in "essentially dualistic terms," not that I "make sense" in "some other kinds of terms" because my reason for not making sense (in a sense) is, in a sense, not related to "essential dualistics," so, sorry, but the various theoretical, idealistic "sensible" explanations aren't possible, apparently (as far as I can see), other than "sort of indirectly," so that one might be often seen to generally wind up babbling nonsense, in effect, in a sense. No wonder I'm trying to turn over some kind of newer leaf. No promises, though. In other words, I tend to suspect that people who cultivate "conclusions" and "proofs" without, in effect, "enough basic reserve," without "enough qualifiers," (which qualifiers might, "in a sense," "alternatively," be represented by quotes, caps, italics, etc), then such people, I tend to suspect, might be somewhat prone to a form of circular reasoning in as much as they might, in effect, "really believe" (ie, per whatever karmic influence), that they might, at some point, arrive at some kind of "theory of everything" (ie, as I currently tend to see it, such people, scientists, etc, are, in effect, chasing their own tail). Not that I'm trying to denigrate certain kinds of "scientific advances towards a theory of everything." I'm just wondering if there are scientists or people out there who might "understand" something about the basics of dependent arisings, because I suspect that once a certain kind of "understanding" (note quotes) sets in, sort of intuitively, then, I suspect, the circular, never ending (mayavic) logic out of dependent arisings might be seen in it's essential simplicity/mayavicity and might then be given a rest, for a change, in favor of "Realer things" that might be experienced once mayavic things are transcended. So what's wrong with regarding "Theosophy," eg, as an introductory medium or crutch or flashlight that might be partly used, in some cases, until one has transcended remnants of karma ... <> Apparently, as I see it, if I didn't have any definite and particular views in the kind of karmic terms that, apparently, got me here in the first place, then I might be on some "higher plane," I guess. So seems I'm thinking that the next best thing is to at least speculate with lots of reservations, and, at the same time, try to negotiate some kind of "middle way," or plank (no matter how "narrow" it may be, or seem), so as avoid getting in too much more trouble and karma. <> Yes, spinning in cicles is spinning in circles ... but I thought students of Theosophy and the Esoteric Tradition might have some interest in transcending such spinning, so I thought if I offered some qualifiers, caps and quotes here and there, then, maybe ... ^:-/ ... <> I suspect that what we "ordinarily" think of as "karma" doesn't "work that way, exactly," in the sense that, as I see it, "proving" is "karmic," and "karma" is "essentially circular," so ... ^:-/ ... so I tend to suspect that you, L, might be barking up the wrong tree, in a sense, to an extent, maybe, whenever you look for proof "beyond a shadow of a doubt," unless you're "knowingly" restricting such proof making to the realm of dependent arisings---where all such shadows and proofs have their mayavic reality. <> No end of "new" around here, eh, apparently? So? Well, not that ... <> L, I'm tending to assume that you might be referring to "karmic connection" in ... I wonder how I ought to try expressing myself here ... ^:-/ ... How about: I'm tending to assume that you might be referring to "karmic connection" in exoteric terms, not that ... Sorry, I think I tried that already often enough. Didn't seem to work too well ... ^:-/ ... Not that ... Speculatively, Mauri From mayaworld1234@yahoo.com Fri Nov 07 22:11:12 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mayaworld1234@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30792 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2003 06:11:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2003 06:11:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web60207.mail.yahoo.com) (216.109.118.102) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2003 06:11:11 -0000 Message-ID: <20031108061111.24080.qmail@web60207.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.39.226.196] by web60207.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 07 Nov 2003 22:11:11 PST Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 22:11:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non vegetarianism - Non sense To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 From: maya world X-Originating-IP: 216.109.118.102 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=161727191 X-Yahoo-Profile: mayaworld1234 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: The following may sound as non sense but that is my understanding. Non vegetarianism is society's as well as individual's sin. Maya, the divine power that runs the world punishes the non vegetarian society since it punishes everything bad. As usual, it uses reverse logic when punishing by doing linking. I give a classic example of reverse logic maya uses. If a person goes in deviated path(in countries like India where there are lot of snakes) i.e. not in just path then maya takes a thing( ex: snake, snake is supposedly have a deviated mind) which goes in deviated path and makes it give a bite to that person not going in just path. This is the reason for many snake bites in India for thousands of years. Maya punishes non vegetarian society; maya rewards vegetarian society. If people become vegetarian, maya gives intuition or knowledge about what is a sin; also if over 80% of the people are vegetarian maya gives knowledge of coming diseases. Killing animals for food is sin. Because of killing so many animals and chicken by taking out their heads, maya takes out the heads of some human beings by giving them Schizophrenia disease. Maya looks at giving Schizophrenia disease as taking out the head. Since animals were together(like pigs, cows etc.) before they are put to death for food, one way maya uses to punish humans for killing them is by looking at the problem as 'they were together broken apart' and it breaks the relationships between people in non vegetarian society. It looks at them as 'together broken apart'. These human relationships broken are marriages, parent child relationships, friendships etc. To break these human relationships, maya uses it's most powerful weapon, i.e. controlling the brain or changing the thinking of people. Some crimes and lot of social problems in a society are due to non vegetarianism. We don't have vision to see all of maya's punishments for non vegetarianism. Maya and devil and non vegetarianism: Devil is one of the bhutha prethamulu or staff member of Hindu god Shiva. Shiva is the jeeveshwara or lord of all living beings. Shiva is also the destroyer. Going in orthodox way devil gives it's characteristics to humans in mode 3 if too many animals are killed. Devil's side animals are wolf, tiger and lion etc. can be identified by their eyes. Similarly cow and elephant are God's side animals. These kind of symbols are there; only thing is to recognize them atleast by high souls in human beings on earth so that they can make/take proper decisions about the world. If the sin increases, Devil grows bigger if the sin decreases, devil and it's acts become less; one of the characteristics of the Devil's animals is non vegetarianism; so if non vegetarianism grows everywhere Devil or it's acts become more. The solution for this is not praying to Jesus to seek help from Devil but to not doing acts like eating meat(i.e. indirectly killing animals). Lion or wolf kills animals for food; if humans kill animals for food they get Devil's characteristics which are in lion or wolf. The fundamental is you get results based on your actions or karma. Crime, social problems and family problems go away if people become vegetarian. Killing animals especially cows is a lot of sin. Devil gives it's characteristics like distortion of vision, distortion of teeth, distortion of nose(i.e. knows) and distortion of horoscope or fate to human beings if they commit too much sin i.e. by killing animals etc. i.e becoming like Devil side living beings like tigers. Since getting the Devil's characteristics people commit crimes. Devil's face is ever changing. Devil's face is like face with distortion of teeth(because of showing teeth when a thing is done), distortion of eyes(i.e. distortion of vision), distortion of nose(i.e distortion of knows), distortion of fore head (i.e. distortion of horoscope or fate) i.e. all these are not normal; in Hindus' belief fore head has horoscope or fate. Example for devil giving it's characteristics to humans:- serial killers. Devil side animals like tiger and lion have distorted eyes or Devil's eyes; distorted teeth(teeth are for eating meat, but classic maya is true for many reasons, so it can be looked as distorted teeth), distorted fore head on face, probably have distorted nose(i.e. distorted knows). A person showing his/her teeth means using his/her power to do a thing. Since human beings kill animals for food, devil gives it's distorted characteristics to human beings, so some of these human beings commit crimes. i.e. why if people become vegetarian those crimes go away. This may not take affect rightaway since killing cows is too much sin and carries over to I think 7 generations, so have to wait for 700 years or praying God helps. Doing bad things to other living beings is doing bad things unto yourself i.e. why killing animals for food is becoming killing human beings through crime through Devil. Also my understanding is the world is supposed to run under mode 2(Hinduism mode 1 is creation, mode 2 is maintenance and mode 3 is destruction) Gods or maintenance Gods. Jesus comes under mode 2 God. Since the world has mode 3 symptoms, the world is put under mode 3 or destruction Gods, mainly Shiva. One of the main things He looks before destruction is sin and killing animals for food is lot of sin. So, Americans as well as people around the world should become vegetarian. If you want to read more of this maya nonsense stuff, please let me know, I will put more of it on web. -- JP --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? 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Mail AddressGuard [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Nov 08 03:24:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85809 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2003 11:24:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2003 11:24:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m06.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.161) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2003 11:24:36 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.163.28059098 (4560) for ; Sat, 8 Nov 2003 06:24:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <163.28059098.2cde2c6b@aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 06:24:27 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Non vegetarianism - Non sense To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 From: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 64.12.136.161 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 11/8/03 3:21:28 AM Central Standard Time, mayaworld1234@yahoo.com writes: << Non vegetarianism is society's as well as individual's sin. >> bull manure! Chuck From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 08 05:37:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 16247 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2003 13:37:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2003 13:37:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2003 13:37:39 -0000 Received: from pool0057.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.18.57] helo=DALLAS) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AITHT-0007fm-00; Sat, 08 Nov 2003 05:37:35 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Non vegetarianism - Non sense Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 05:37:09 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01c3a5fd$7198bcd0$3912f4d8@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <20031108061111.24080.qmail@web60207.mail.yahoo.com> X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.49 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 8 2003 Dear Friend: As I understand from THEOSOPHY one might say: Let us agree that killing the higher forms of life represented by the animals is not part of the evolutionary scheme of nature. They have a right to live their lives. They represent a portion of the natural evolution of intelligence.=20=20 Our forms in the past have been many and various, Those that were used by our Monadic (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANASIC) Intelligence, were once "animal forms," we are told. THEOSOPHY speaks of this in the early pages of the SECRET DOCTRINE as that which developed into a high form of instinct in such forms on the "Moon Chain."=20 If we know (to "know" indicates that Mind / Manas is active) that any act we perform is against the smooth development of Nature (and Karma, or, natural law, such as compassion, cooperation, pity, protection given to the poor and the weak, benevolence, etc... ) and we still do it, we are creating a motive adverse to evolution as a whole. This could be called a sin -- a voluntary selfish action. Karma is of course attracted to every such act, including the killing of anything. Why have we got this mind power? Is it not lour present duty to know more about it and its relation to "instinct" in our own personal physical self?=20 In what way is mind superior to instinct? If we are able to answer these questions, at least in general theoretical way, we can solve the question of specific responses from Nature to our "wrong doing."=20=20 Not every physical action results in ills to specific parts of our bodies. But I would say that trying to tie specific ills to specific acts is not very easy, nor can the examples offered be judged complete, unless the action of Karma be grasped and made far more clearer. If we look on animal intelligence as the development in an immortal Monad (a "brother" monad to ours), then we may view "killing for food" from a far more compassionate level.=20=20 Further each morsel of foot we eat is made up of living Monad (each, at some stage of their individual progress). We cannot escape any of these connections.=20=20 If we "eat to live," the Karma generated is far more harmonious than if we "live to eat," and selfishly enjoy taste alone -- that is an aspect of gluttony. That leads to killing animals for food.=20=20 Let us look at necessity.=20=20 To support life in our bodies we do not need animal foods. In our vast world there are many places and societies that have indicated this, and made it part of their life-creeds: non-violence to the animal kingdoms. THEOSOPHY emphasizes this as we can see from the quotations already offered for consideration. In India the Jain community, the higher castes of Hindus, and the Buddhists around the world are usually found to be vegetarians and non-violent. THEOSOPHY views the entire Universe as filled with Monads all at their own stages of development They are the "immortal Pilgrims." Animals have as much right to life and progress as humans have. Is this worth considering?=20 Here is a statement and reasoning used by the Buddha at a sacrifice of animals: ---------------------------------------------------------------------=20 But Buddha softly said, "Let him not strike, great King!" and therewith loosed The victim's bonds, none staying him, so great His presence was.=20 Then, craving leave, he spake Of life, which all can take but none can give, Life, which all creatures love and strive to keep, Wonderful, dear and pleasant unto each, Even to the meanest; yea, a boon to all Where pity is, for pity makes the world Soft to the weak and noble for the strong. Unto the dumb lips of his flock he lent Sad pleading words, showing how man, who prays For mercy to the gods, is merciless, Being as god to those; albeit all life Is linked and kin, and what we slay have given Meek tribute of the milk and wool, and set Fast trust upon the hands which murder them. Also he spake of what the holy books Do surely teach, how that at death some sink To bird and beast, and these rise up to man In wanderings of the spark which grows purged flame. So were the sacrifice new sin, if so The fated passage of a soul be stayed. Nor, spake he, shall one wash his spirit clean By blood; nor gladden gods, being good, with blood; Nor bribe them, being evil; nay, nor lay Upon the brow of innocent bound beasts One hair's weight of that answer all must give For all things done amiss or wrongfully, Alone, each for himself, reckoning with that The fixed arithmic of the universe, Which meteth good for good and ill for ill, Measure for measure, unto deeds, words, thoughts; Watchful, aware, implacable, unmoved; Making all futures fruits of all the pasts. Thus spake he, breathing words so piteous With such high lordliness of ruth and right, The priests drew back their garments o'er the hands Crimsoned with slaughter, and the King came near, Standing with clasped palms reverencing Buddh; While still our Lord went on,=20 teaching how fair=20 This earth were if all living things be linked=20 In friendliness and common use of foods,=20 Bloodless and pure; the golden grain, bright fruits,=20 Sweet herbs which grow for all, the waters wan,=20 Sufficient drinks and meats.=20 Which when these heard,=20 The might of gentleness so conquered them, The priests themselves scattered their altar-flames=20 And flung away the steel of sacrifice; And through the land next day passed a decree=20 Proclaimed by criers, and in this wise graved=20 On rock and column:=20 "Thus the King's will is: -- There hath been slaughter for the sacrifice=20 And slaying for the meat, but henceforth none=20 Shall spill the blood of life nor taste of flesh,=20 Seeing that knowledge grows, and life is one,=20 And mercy cometh to the merciful." So ran the edict, and from those days forth Sweet peace hath spread between all living kind, Man and the beasts which serve him, and the birds, On all those banks of Gunga where our Lord=20 Taught with his saintly pity and soft speech. For aye so piteous was the Master's heart=20 To all that breathe this breath of fleeting life,=20 Yoked in one fellowship of joys and pains, [from Sir Edwin Arnold: THE LIGHT OF ASIA, Book 5, p 85 - 87] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Perhaps this is valuable for us all now, Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: maya Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:11 PM To:=20 Subject: Non vegetarianism - Non sense Hi:=20 The following may sound as non sense but that is my understanding. Non vegetarianism is society's as well as individual's sin.=20 Maya, the divine power that runs the world punishes the non vegetarian society since it punishes everything bad. As usual, it uses reverse logic when punishing by doing linking. I give a classic example of reverse logic maya uses.=20=20 If a person goes in deviated path(in countries like India where there are lot of snakes) i.e. not in just path then maya takes a thing( ex: snake, snake is supposedly have a deviated mind) which goes in deviated path and makes it give a bite to that person not going in just path. This is the reason for many snake bites in India for thousands of years. Maya punishes non vegetarian society; maya rewards vegetarian society. If people become vegetarian, maya gives intuition or knowledge about what is a sin; also if over 80% of the people are vegetarian maya gives knowledge of coming diseases. Killing animals for food is sin. ..... CUT From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Nov 08 06:25:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38879 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2003 14:25:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2003 14:25:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2003 14:25:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Nov 2003 14:25:50 -0000 Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:25:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: making demands and relationships with others Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <004001c3a550$7da073e0$cebba7a7@scribe> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1217 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "stevestubbs" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.90 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Eldon B tucker" wrote: > It's not necessary to draw a distinction between people based upon whether > they incorporate a particular virtue into their outer lives -- like a > vegetarian diet -- or not. According to Olcott (BUDDHIST CATECHISM) the point of the matter is that 99% if all the bad karma people generate comes from violating one or mnre of the Five Grave Precepts. Observing the precepts does not make you a saint, in other words, but has the practical effect of avoiding a considerable anount of trouble which others are enthusiastically bringing on themselves. Since the precepts are simple, few in number, and do not require that one become an ascetic monk, complete with hairshirt and whip, this is a major benefit easily acquired. I have been told by some Theosophists that even the most elementary matters of practice are verboten and that we must restrict outselves to sitting around reading magazines. But becoming a mahatma by reading magazines is about like becoming a body builder by watching Arnold Schwarzenegger. Not only are the movies terrible, but you won't win any competitions by sitting around eating popcorn. From yamta13@yahoo.fr Sat Nov 08 10:11:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: yamta13@yahoo.fr X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 195 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2003 18:11:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2003 18:11:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web20603.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.226.161) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2003 18:11:23 -0000 Message-ID: <20031108181122.37150.qmail@web20603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.11.230.176] by web20603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Nov 2003 19:11:22 CET Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 19:11:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Theos-World making demands and relationships with others To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <004001c3a550$7da073e0$cebba7a7@scribe> MIME-Version: 1.0 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?YAMTA=20Augustin?= X-Originating-IP: 216.136.226.161 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117989268 X-Yahoo-Profile: yamta13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 Concerning vegetarianism, wfhat about eating egg and fishe ? =20 Thanks Eldon B tucker wrote: I'd say that life is imperfect and that in order to exist we have to consum= e resources and make demands on the world. That includes taking food, drink, and air. We can be modest in our demands and exist in a mostly kind and cooperative relationship with life or we can fill our minds with a dog-eat-dog mentality and be a predator to everyone and everything around us. It's not necessary to draw a distinction between people based upon whether they incorporate a particular virtue into their outer lives -- like a vegetarian diet -- or not. These external trappings will fix themselves ove= r time. What's important is to recognize the spiritual fire in the other's eyes. We cannot cause the initial spark, though; that's up to the other's inner nature, wholly self-initiated. Looking at another, it's the inner light that's important. We can respond t= o that, even if it's but a spark. We don't need to tell someone to tie their shoelaces, brush their teeth, cut down on the hamburger diet, or read good books. We're not their Mother. The important communication is in terms of a sympathetic vibration, a resonance between their creative fire and ours.=20 Sometimes it may be useful to talk about the personal and social benefits o= f a vegetarian diet. Other times, it's not important. The same is true of any area of self-improvement or the cultivation of any particular virtue. Preaching does little good. Living the life without trying to win converts does much better, teaching by example rather than by sermon. If the subject of vegetarianism comes up, for instance, it's a suitable topic; if it is simply thrown into someone's face to put him or her down, then it becomes a form of bragging and name-calling. Another question regards what friends we keep. The people we associate have an effect upon us. They can drag us down or uplift us. Some can act as mentors and hasten our learning of difficult things. Others can act as bad influences, leading us into wasting our intelligence, energy, and the scarcest resource of all: time. We can hang out with troubled people with the idea that our influence will help them. This is a form of self-sacrifice. If we are intentionally helpin= g them and they are trying to improve, it is good; if they are victimizing themselves and us and have no intention of changing, it's not good. We can also hang out with people that aren't troubled but are learning from us as a role model for something they'd like to know or be able to do. Not every helping relationship is a sick person dragging us down, unwilling to improve. Some are healthy, growing people that are taking initiative to improve themselves and giving us something positive in return for our assistance. Little is learned by hanging around with people exactly like ourselves, avoiding the outside world, and putting blinders on. It's possible that theosophical students do this in their groups at times. But such is not always the case. We don't need a student/teacher relationship all the time. A student/student relationship is helpful too. A group of theosophical students, peers, sharing what they know, can progress, come to new understandings, and make progress in both their learning and lives. I agree that thoughts (and feelings) are more important that the specifics of what we may have eaten for lunch. Giving a vegetarian some french-fries with a trace of animal shortening (from the grease it was fried in) may be bad. Far worse is deliberately provoking someone into a burning, angry outburst for the simple (and malicious) joy of watching them get mad. The excuse that one is playing the role of a spiritual teacher and training the other person is ridiculous, only convincing the person making it. On a mailing list, we should always remember we're talking to real people and treat them the same as we would if we were standing face-to-face. -- Eldon Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran=E7ais ! Testez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yamta13@yahoo.fr Sat Nov 08 10:20:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: yamta13@yahoo.fr X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30639 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2003 18:20:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2003 18:20:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web20605.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.226.163) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2003 18:20:18 -0000 Message-ID: <20031108181337.14980.qmail@web20605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.11.230.176] by web20605.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 08 Nov 2003 19:13:37 CET Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 19:13:37 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: Theos-World making demands and relationships with others To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20031108181122.37150.qmail@web20603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?YAMTA=20Augustin?= X-Originating-IP: 216.136.226.163 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117989268 X-Yahoo-Profile: yamta13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable YAMTA Augustin wrote:Hi, Concerning vegetarianism, what about eating egg and fish ? Thanks Eldon B tucker=20 wrote: I'd say that life is imperfect and that in order to exist we have to consum= e resources and make demands on the world. That includes taking food, drink, and air. We can be modest in our demands and exist in a mostly kind and cooperative relationship with life or we can fill our minds with a dog-eat-dog mentality and be a predator to everyone and everything around us. It's not necessary to draw a distinction between people based upon whether they incorporate a particular virtue into their outer lives -- like a vegetarian diet -- or not. These external trappings will fix themselves ove= r time. What's important is to recognize the spiritual fire in the other's eyes. We cannot cause the initial spark, though; that's up to the other's inner nature, wholly self-initiated. Looking at another, it's the inner light that's important. We can respond t= o that, even if it's but a spark. We don't need to tell someone to tie their shoelaces, brush their teeth, cut down on the hamburger diet, or read good books. We're not their Mother. The important communication is in terms of a sympathetic vibration, a resonance between their creative fire and ours.=20 Sometimes it may be useful to talk about the personal and social benefits o= f a vegetarian diet. Other times, it's not important. The same is true of any area of self-improvement or the cultivation of any particular virtue. Preaching does little good. Living the life without trying to win converts does much better, teaching by example rather than by sermon. If the subject of vegetarianism comes up, for instance, it's a suitable topic; if it is simply thrown into someone's face to put him or her down, then it becomes a form of bragging and name-calling. Another question regards what friends we keep. The people we associate have an effect upon us. They can drag us down or uplift us. Some can act as mentors and hasten our learning of difficult things. Others can act as bad influences, leading us into wasting our intelligence, energy, and the scarcest resource of all: time. We can hang out with troubled people with the idea that our influence will help them. This is a form of self-sacrifice. If we are intentionally helpin= g them and they are trying to improve, it is good; if they are victimizing themselves and us and have no intention of changing, it's not good. We can also hang out with people that aren't troubled but are learning from us as a role model for something they'd like to know or be able to do. Not every helping relationship is a sick person dragging us down, unwilling to improve. Some are healthy, growing people that are taking initiative to improve themselves and giving us something positive in return for our assistance. Little is learned by hanging around with people exactly like ourselves, avoiding the outside world, and putting blinders on. It's possible that theosophical students do this in their groups at times. But such is not always the case. We don't need a student/teacher relationship all the time. A student/student relationship is helpful too. A group of theosophical students, peers, sharing what they know, can progress, come to new understandings, and make progress in both their learning and lives. I agree that thoughts (and feelings) are more important that the specifics of what we may have eaten for lunch. Giving a vegetarian some french-fries with a trace of animal shortening (from the grease it was fried in) may be bad. Far worse is deliberately provoking someone into a burning, angry outburst for the simple (and malicious) joy of watching them get mad. The excuse that one is playing the role of a spiritual teacher and training the other person is ridiculous, only convincing the person making it. On a mailing list, we should always remember we're talking to real people and treat them the same as we would if we were standing face-to-face. -- Eldon Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran=E7ais ! Testez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran=E7ais ! Testez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 08 12:34:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 74034 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2003 20:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Nov 2003 20:34:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2003 20:34:19 -0000 Received: from pool0473.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.227.218] helo=DALLAS) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AIZmg-0002z4-00; Sat, 08 Nov 2003 12:34:14 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World making demands and relationships with others Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 12:33:59 -0800 Message-ID: <000801c3a637$a86354c0$dae3b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: <20031108181337.14980.qmail@web20605.mail.yahoo.com> X-ELNK-Originating-IP: 209.179.227.218 X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.18 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 9 2003 Re: Eggs & fish Dear friends: THEOSOPHY makes no rules. Each individual makes his own choices and he advances on the great Path in accordance with those. But he may consider advice and see if it suits his own reasoning. As such this could be considered; Vegetarians adopt whatever diets they choose or know will suit their personal bodily needs. Eggs are usually unfertilized. Fish are living animals. Why not ask about grains and nuts? They are living seeds and may be fertile. By eating them we prevent their germination. No matter what we do, there are some karmic links made, that is a rule. What our attitude may be when we choose our foods, and what we choose to eat is to me, of more significance than what I eat to sustain life in my body. Take some of the rules of the Buddhist Bhikkus: They cannot handle money or by their food. They depend on the charity of others who feed them -- or they starve.=20 What does this teach: the cooperation and interdependence of humanity, and offers the virtue of hospitality, charity and sharing with others. It is also a reliance on Karma that we shall always be given what we need.=20 This assumed discipline offers the possibility of advance on an inner Path, more difficult for the average person to understand than the constant war to secure and to possess. Here , after all his deep teaching is what the Buddha said: ---------------------------- But to his own, them of the yellow robe -- They who, as wakened eagles, soar with scorn >From life's low vale, and wing towards the Sun =96 To these he taught the Ten Observances The Dasa-S=EEl, and how a mendicant Must know the Three Doors and the Triple Thoughts; The Sixfold States of Mind; the Fivefold Powers; The Eight High Gates of Purity; the Modes Of Understanding; Iddhi; Upeksh=E2 The Five Great Meditations, which are food Sweeter than Amrit for the holy soul; The Jh=E2na's and the Three Chief Refuges. Also he taught his own how they should dwell; How live, free from the snares of love and wealth; What eat and drink and carry -- three plain cloths, -- Yellow, of stitched stuff, worn with shoulder bare -- A girdle, almsbowl, strainer.=20 Thus he laid The great foundations of our Sangha well, That noble Order of the Yellow Robe Which to this day standeth to help the World. So all that night he spake, teaching the Law: And on no eyes fell sleep -- for they who heard Rejoiced with tireless joy. Also the King, When this was finished, rose upon his throne And with bared feet bowed low before his Son Kissing his hem; and said, "Take me, O Son!=20 Lowest and least of all thy Company." And sweet Yas=F4dhara, all happy now, -- Cried "Give to Rahula -- thou Blessed One! The Treasure of the Kingdom of thy Word For his inheritance." Thus passed these Three Into the Path * * * * [From Sir Edwin Arnold THE LIGHT OF ASIA, Nook 8, pp 155-6] -------------------------------------------- Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: YAMTA Augustin [mailto:yamta13@yahoo.fr]=20 Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 10:14 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World making demands and relationships with others YAMTA Augustin wrote:Hi, Concerning vegetarianism, what about eating egg and fish ? Thanks Eldon B tucker=20 wrote: I'd say that life is imperfect and that in order to exist we have to consume resources and make demands on the world. That includes taking food, drink, and air. We can be modest in our demands and exist in a mostly kind and cooperative relationship with life or we can fill our minds with a dog-eat-dog mentality and be a predator to everyone and everything around us. It's not necessary to draw a distinction between people based upon whether they incorporate a particular virtue into their outer lives -- like a vegetarian diet -- or not. These external trappings will fix themselves over time. What's important is to recognize the spiritual fire in the other's eyes. We cannot cause the initial spark, though; that's up to the other's inner nature, wholly self-initiated. Looking at another, it's the inner light that's important. We can respond to that, even if it's but a spark. We don't need to tell someone to tie their shoelaces, brush their teeth, cut down on the hamburger diet, or read good books. We're not their Mother. The important communication is in terms of a sympathetic vibration, a resonance between their creative fire and ours. Sometimes it may be useful to talk about the personal and social benefits of a vegetarian diet. Other times, it's not important. The same is true of any area of self-improvement or the cultivation of any particular virtue. Preaching does little good. Living the life without trying to win converts does much better, teaching by example rather than by sermon. If the subject of vegetarianism comes up, for instance, it's a suitable topic; if it is simply thrown into someone's face to put him or her down, then it becomes a form of bragging and name-calling. Another question regards what friends we keep. The people we associate have an effect upon us. They can drag us down or uplift us. Some can act as mentors and hasten our learning of difficult things. Others can act as bad influences, leading us into wasting our intelligence, energy, and the scarcest resource of all: time. We can hang out with troubled people with the idea that our influence will help them. This is a form of self-sacrifice. If we are intentionally helping them and they are trying to improve, it is good; if they are victimizing themselves and us and have no intention of changing, it's not good. We can also hang out with people that aren't troubled but are learning from us as a role model for something they'd like to know or be able to do. Not every helping relationship is a sick person dragging us down, unwilling to improve. Some are healthy, growing people that are taking initiative to improve themselves and giving us something positive in return for our assistance. Little is learned by hanging around with people exactly like ourselves, avoiding the outside world, and putting blinders on. It's possible that theosophical students do this in their groups at times. But such is not always the case. We don't need a student/teacher relationship all the time. A student/student relationship is helpful too. A group of theosophical students, peers, sharing what they know, can progress, come to new understandings, and make progress in both their learning and lives. I agree that thoughts (and feelings) are more important that the specifics of what we may have eaten for lunch. Giving a vegetarian some french-fries with a trace of animal shortening (from the grease it was fried in) may be bad. Far worse is deliberately provoking someone into a burning, angry outburst for the simple (and malicious) joy of watching them get mad. The excuse that one is playing the role of a spiritual teacher and training the other person is ridiculous, only convincing the person making it. On a mailing list, we should always remember we're talking to real people and treat them the same as we would if we were standing face-to-face. -- Eldon Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran=E7ais ! Testez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran=E7ais ! Testez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Nov 09 10:24:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85157 invoked from network); 9 Nov 2003 18:24:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Nov 2003 18:24:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40907.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.204) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Nov 2003 18:24:13 -0000 Message-ID: <20031109182413.74457.qmail@web40907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Nov 2003 10:24:13 PST Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 10:24:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: William Q. Judge and Katherine A. Tingley: An Online Edition of Dr. H.N. Stoke's Articles To: ".DanielHCaldwell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.78.204 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell William Q. Judge and Katherine A. Tingley An Analysis of the Controversy Surrounding W.Q. Judge's Diary Entries about "Promise" and the Dead H.P.B. including Material on the Close Relationship between Mr. Judge and Mrs. Tingley by Dr. H. N. Stokes See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokeswqjktcon.htm ===== Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm -------------------------------------------------------------- "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2 -------------------------------------------------------------- You can always access our main site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc Blavatsy Study Center now has a mirror site at: http://www.theosophy.info/ -------------------------------------------------------------- From mail@katinkahesselink.net Tue Nov 11 07:01:30 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mail@katinkahesselink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64438 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2003 15:01:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2003 15:01:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2003 15:01:30 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2003 15:01:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:01:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-18 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200311072242.JAA25142@mailman.zeta.org.au> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3584 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Katinka Hesselink" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.93 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=92802723 X-Yahoo-Profile: katinka_hesselink I think theosophical students are mainly interested in seeing this collection as complete as possible (which obviously means John Coopers collection is included) as well as it being accurate. This means that the letters were transcribed as accurately as possible and no deletions were made. Still, how can John Cooper be said to have owned these letters? These letters are HPB's and I don't think it is fair to say that any one person or organisation has copyright over them. Knowing Adele and John at least a bit (I have met them a few times in theosophical circles) I suspect they just didn't feel like running every change they made in John Cooper's manuscript, based on a different interpretation of HPB's handwriting, by his heirs. They probably took the trouble of checking everything with the originals, just like they say on the website, which is good, not bad. Some professional pride may be involved as well. Still, I think theosophical researchers will be interested in finding out what differences there are between the John Cooper-collection and the collection as is now being published. Significant differences will be worth hearing about and should be published in the appropriate places, either online or in Theosophical History Magazine. It is a bit premature though to complain of inaccuracies when the book hasn't been published yet. Katinka Hesselink --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > As the Literary Executor of the Estate of the late Dr John Cooper I was > naturally interested to read of the forthcoming publication of a volume > which, at least on the basis of the brief information published on > theos-talk, sounds identical to the volume compiled by Dr Cooper prior to > his untimely death. > > I would welcome to the following questions: > > 1. Can I assume that no use has been made of any material which derives > from Dr Cooper's manuscript or research, for which he held, and his > family now holds, all intellectual property rights? > > 2. Can I assume that no use has been made of any letters which were not > known prior to Dr Cooper's research, which were discovered by him, which > had never previously been published, and which are available only in his > manuscript or in his doctoral thesis? > > 3. Can I assume that nothing of Dr Cooper's research (except in the > strictly limited amounts allowable by international and national > copyright law, and appropriately acknowledged) is used in the new work? > > I note that Dr Cooper's family was fully prepared to make all material > relating to the HPB correspondence available for publication by the > Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton, and to cooperate in such > publication on the conditions only that (i) no editing, amending or > alteration would be made to such work except with the permission of the > family, and (ii) that the intellectual property rights of the > beneficiaries of Dr Cooper's estate were recognized and acknowledged. > These conditions reflect the concerns Dr Cooper had expressed to a number > of people that there would be some editing or altering of HPB's writings. > > The Theosophical Publishing House, Wheaton, appeared entirely unwilling > to accept these conditions. > > I look forward to seeing the new publication and to comparing it > carefully with Dr Cooper's work. I am sure it is entirely unnecessary, in > this case, to state that the rights of Dr Cooper's family will be > asserted and defended at law in any breach of their intellectual property > rights. > > > Dr Gregory Tillett From janet_reida@yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 08:25:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: janet_reida@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81363 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2003 16:25:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2003 16:25:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2003 16:25:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2003 16:25:55 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:25:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: two books everyone should read!! Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1239 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "janet_reida" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.79 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=165419806 X-Yahoo-Profile: janet_reida Bonjour Members, If you're into spiritual and inspirational books read The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho and The Butterfly by Jay Singh. These are two absolute musts for the seeker. I have read many books during the last few months (doing a little soul searching) and no two books touched me the way these two books did. Especially the story about the caterpillar that leaves the Silk Palace to find her food plant. I love this caterpillar! She's brave! She's tough! She's fearless! And most important she is in search of her true self. The Alchemist is nice too, but for an artist I think the caterpillar is more symbolic of the creative chrysalis we must all one day break out of, which we can only truly do when we are authentic. Read these books, please. And if you know anyone who is need of a little inspiration I could recommend no two greater books. Happy Holidays. Always an e-mail away, Janet!! PS. If you should happen to purchase any books with a spiritual/inspirational theme on-line, please send me a discount! Link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/stl/324SHH61L8H2D/104-9582407- 8058308 Please Forward to anyone in need of artistic or spiritual inspiration. Thank You for helping to spread the light. From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Nov 11 08:31:27 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83546 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2003 16:31:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2003 16:31:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2003 16:31:24 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AJbQK-0002ZW-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:31:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3FB10F32.9040708@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:32:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Letters of H.P. Blavatsky Volume I, 1861-18 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.50 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Katinka Hesselink wrote: > Still, how can John Cooper be said to have owned these letters? These > letters are HPB's and I don't think it is fair to say that any one > person or organisation has copyright over them. We're in an area where copyright law is kind of tricky. If the letters were published as soon as they were written, there would be no problem; the letters are public domain (although Cooper would still have what is called a "compilation copyright," which is another can of worms). Between that and the rules of ownership of letters (not to mention the differences in copyright law between Great Britain and the United States), this is a question for experts in the subject. I assume such experts were consulted. Bart From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 10:41:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 37540 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2003 18:41:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2003 18:41:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40906.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.203) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2003 18:41:16 -0000 Message-ID: <20031111184116.92681.qmail@web40906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:41:16 PST Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:41:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: H.P. Blavatsky's Letters Reprinted at Blavatsky Archives To: ".DanielHCaldwell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.78.203 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Students of Blavatsky and Theosophy may not be aware of all of the letters of HPB that we have reprinted at Blavatsky Archives. Below is a list of such letters: • Blavatsky, H.P. H.P.B. and Theosophy in France: Letters to Monsieur C. Biliere. Originally published in The Theosophical Forum, August 1950, pp. 479-491. • Blavatsky, H.P. Leaves of Theosophical History: Letter from H. P. B. to Mrs. Hollis Billings. 1881. Reprinted from The Theosophical Forum (Point Loma, California), May 1936, pp. 343-346. • Blavatsky, H.P. Extract of a Letter from Mme. Blavatsky. [Dated December 1881] Reprinted from Hints on Esoteric Theosophy, No. 1, by A.O. Hume, Calcutta, Second edition, 1882, pp. 86-92. • Blavatsky, H.P. Letter from H.P. Blavatsky to Henry S. Olcott. Reprinted from The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), July 1908, p. 947. • Blavatsky, H.P. Letters of H.P.B. to Dr. Hartmann, 1885-1886. Reprinted from The Path (New York), January, February, and March 1896. • Blavatsky, H.P. Communication with Masters. 1885/1886. Reprinted from The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), February 1908, pp. 393-394. • Blavatsky, H.P. Two Letters from H.P. Blavatsky to Dr. Wilhelm Hübbe-Schleiden. 1886. These letters (written in early January, 1886) have never before been published. They deal with HPB's receipt of the "Hodgson Report" and her answers to some of Hodgson's charges. • Blavatsky, H.P. Madame Blavatsky on Gerald Massey's "Lectures" and "Natural Genesis." 1887. Reprinted from The Agnostic Journal (London), October 3, 1891, p. 214. This Blavatsky letter has never been reprinted since its original publication in 1891. • Blavatsky, H.P. H. P. B. and Theosophy in France: Letters to Mme. Camille Lemaitre. Reprinted from The Theosophical Forum, July 1950, pp. 392-410. • Blavatsky, H.P. The Esoteric Section of the Theosophical Society. 1889. This short letter dated May 14, 1889 has never been republished or reprinted since it was first issued privately. • Blavatsky, H.P. The Esoteric Section T.S.: Reorganization of the Section in America. 1889. Photographic reproduction of this never before published document from the summer of 1889. • Blavatsky, H.P. Letter of H.P. Blavatsky to Dr. Elliott Coues. 1889. Reprinted from The Theosophical Forum (Point Loma, California), October 15, 1933, pp. 47-48. • Blavatsky, H.P. To The Members of the E.S. of the T.S. 1889. This short letter dated November 1, 1889 and addressed to H.P.B.'s Esoteric students has never been republished or reprinted since it was first issued privately. • Blavatsky, H.P. Letters of H.P. Blavatsky to Her Family in Russia. Translated by Vera Johnston. 1894-1895. More than 60 pages of text with scores of HPB's letters written to her relatives. • Blavatsky, H.P. Letters of H.P. Blavatsky to W.Q. Judge and Other Miscellaneous Letters The originals of these Blavatsky letters are preserved in the Andover-Harvard Theological Library of Harvard University, Cambridge Massachusetts. • Coues, Elliott. Blavatsky Unveiled! Reprinted from The Sun (New York), Sunday, July 20, 1890, p. 17. • Judge, William Q., ed. Dr. Elliott Coues in His Letters: Some of His Letters to H. P. Blavatsky and Others, with Replies. Reprinted from a 12-page pamphlet issued by William Quan Judge. Pamphlet is dated New York, June 14, 1889. • Khandalvala, N.D. Madame H.P. Blavatsky As I Knew Her. Reprinted from The Theosophist (Adyar, Madras, India), June 1929, pp. 213-222 and July 1929, pp. 309-318. • Maitland, Edward. Anna Kingsford, Madame Blavatsky and the Theosophists. More than fifty pages of excerpts from Volume II of Edward Maitland's Anna Kingsford: Her Life, Letters, Diary and Work, 3rd. edition (edited by Samuel Hopgood Hart), London, John Watkins, 1913. The first edition of this work was published in 1896. These reminiscences contain valuable primary sources including transcriptions of several of Madame Blavatsky's letters. • Patterson, George. The Collapse of Koot Hoomi. Originally published in The Madras Christian College Magazine (Madras, India), September 1884, pp. 199-215 and with a "Postscript" on pp. 241-242. • Roy, Parbati Churn. From Hinduism to Hinduism. 1896. In this extremely rare work Parbati Churn Roy devotes three chapters (pp. 36-58) to his personal reminiscences of H.P.Blavatsky, H.S. Olcott, the Mahatmas and The Theosophical Society. • Sidgwick, Eleanor Mildred. Mr. Eglinton. Reprinted from the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research (London), June 1886, pp. 282-287. These articles containing HPB's letters can be accessed at: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/compitems2.htm and http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/compitems3.htm Daniel ===== Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm -------------------------------------------------------------- "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2 -------------------------------------------------------------- You can always access our main site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc Blavatsy Study Center now has a mirror site at: http://www.theosophy.info/ -------------------------------------------------------------- From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Tue Nov 11 11:24:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 38928 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2003 19:24:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2003 19:24:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40905.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.202) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2003 19:24:19 -0000 Message-ID: <20031111192419.88642.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.9.20.19] by web40905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:24:19 PST Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:24:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collections of HPB's Letters contained in In-Print Books To: ".DanielHCaldwell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.78.202 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Below is a listing of books in print that contain letters of H.P. Blavatsky. By going thru all of the titles below, the reader can find hundreds of HPB's letters. H. P. B. Speaks, Vol. I Edited by C. Jinarajadasa http://www.questbooks.net/title.cfm?bookid=37 H.P.B. Speaks, Volume II compiled & edited by C. Jinarajadasa http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0766133486/ Letters of H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett Edited by A.T. Barker http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0766148149/ Some Unpublished Letters of Helena Petrovna Blavatsky compiled with an Introduction by Eugene Rollin Corson http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/076613878X/ Mahatma Letters to A.P. Sinnett from the Mahatmas M. and K.H. Compiled & edited by A.T. Barker. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0766127346/ Incidents in the Life of Madame H.P. Blavatsky (Facsimile of 1886 ed.) by A. P. Sinnett http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564595625/ Modern World Movements by J.D. Buck http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0766126749/ Old Diary Leaves Vol. 1 by Henry S. Olcott http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0766133362/ Personal Memoirs of H.P. Blavatsky compiled by Mary K. Neff http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/076613265X/ Theosophist Magazine (July 1931-September 1931) This reprint includes the "H.P.B. Centenary Number," The Theosophist, August 1931, pp. 553-692. Contains 140 pages of rare documents about H.P. Blavatsky including letters of HPB http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0766152030/ Rebirth of the Occult Tradition: How The Secret Doctrine of H.P. Blavatsky Was Written by Boris De Zirkoff http://www.questbooks.net/title.cfm?bookid=292 Reminiscences of H. P. Blavatsky and The Secret Doctrine by Constance Wachtmeister http://www.questbooks.net/title.cfm?bookid=430 Modern Priestess of Isis by Vsevolod Sergyeevich Solovyoff http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0766163598/ Daniel ===== Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm -------------------------------------------------------------- "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 2 -------------------------------------------------------------- You can always access our main site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc Blavatsy Study Center now has a mirror site at: http://www.theosophy.info/ -------------------------------------------------------------- From samblo@cs.com Tue Nov 11 16:04:14 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32647 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2003 00:04:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2003 00:04:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r01.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.97) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2003 00:04:13 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.f9.33a154c8 (14374) for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:04:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:04:05 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re "happiness is helping others" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Originating-IP: 152.163.225.97 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Mauri, A while back you asked me for a web link for the Grand Master of the Templars at the Vatican. As i thought at the time I had lost 166 Megabytes of folders and web research I said I couldn't give it then. I have since been able to recover all the lost content. Here is the url for the websites. http://www.d-holliday.com/holysepulchre/gran.htm John From mhart@idirect.ca Tue Nov 11 19:54:46 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89423 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2003 03:54:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2003 03:54:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2003 03:54:46 -0000 Received: from [216.154.45.197] (helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AJm5b-0004gf-PV for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:54:44 -0500 Message-ID: <3FB1AE5D.9000900@idirect.ca> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:51:57 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com References: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: Re: Theos-World re "happiness is helping others" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter4.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=6.5 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.122 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn I don't remember the particulars about my question, but thanks for that. Apparently there is "The Equestrian Order" still active today and, reading in the "history" link on that site, one finds that the members of that order are "in defense of the Faith" and that they are "soldiers of Christ." I thought "soldiers" was an interesting choice of words in that context. In other words, watch out guys! Thanks for that warning, John. Speculatively, Mauri samblo@cs.com wrote: > Mauri, > A while back you asked me for a web link for the Grand Master of the > Templars at > the Vatican. As i thought at the time I had lost 166 Megabytes of > folders and web > research I said I couldn't give it then. I have since been able to > recover all the lost > content. Here is the url for the websites. > > http://www.d-holliday.com/holysepulchre/gran.htm > > John > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From samblo@cs.com Tue Nov 11 23:57:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 47351 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2003 07:57:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2003 07:57:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r01.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.97) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2003 07:57:02 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.1f1.13044072 (17079) for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 02:56:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1f1.13044072.2ce341c9@cs.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 02:56:57 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re "happiness is helping others" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Originating-IP: 152.163.225.97 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Mauri, Use Google Search Engine, key word is "SMOM" John From krishtar_a@brturbo.com Wed Nov 12 11:10:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: krishtar_a@brturbo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 66201 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2003 19:10:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2003 19:10:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp3.brturbo.com) (200.199.201.164) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2003 19:10:02 -0000 Received: from adsl (200-215-099-012.fnsce7005.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.215.99.12]) by smtp3.brturbo.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E450141D7 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:10:00 -0200 (BRST) Message-ID: <002601c3a950$38d0ed40$0301010a@adsl> To: References: Subject: re: two books everyone should read!! Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:07:06 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "krishtar_a" X-Originating-IP: 200.199.201.164 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=162542652 X-Yahoo-Profile: krishtar_a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Janet, I know many of the works of Paulo Coelho, he was also a lyricist of a Brazi= lian pop singer Raul Seixas in the 70=B4s, but since the beginning he start= ed writing books I had the feeling he was a mistifier, although he has sold= millions of his books, most of them are not authentic. He used to say he could even produce winds but, due to his visible material= istic aproach, my view is that it would not be possible for him to manipul= ate any elementals such as silphs and other nature spirits. He takes part in the Brazilian Literary Academy becuse of his huge selling. For some his books may seem inspiring, for others may not. I think there are many ways of introducing to an enlightenment path, even = starting from an easy Shirley Mclaine book such as "My Lives" or Paulo Coe= lho=B4s " The Alchemist."=20 These books may work as a first contact with the occult, though. For example, my first books on spiritualism was ranging from Allan Kardeck= spiritism to Leadbeater=B4s neo-Theosophy. During the last 14 years I am researching for the theosophical study, under= the HPB=B4s books, authentic Master=B4s teachings. My views are only views, just that. Krishtar ----- Original Message -----=20 From: janet_reida=20 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:25 PM re:Subject: Theos-World two books everyone should read!! Bonjour Members,=20 If you're into spiritual and inspirational books read The Alchemist=20 by Paulo Coelho and The Butterfly by Jay Singh. These are two absolute musts for the=20 seeker. I have read many books during the last few months (doing a=20 little soul searching) and no two books touched me the way these two=20 books did. Especially the story about the caterpillar that leaves=20 the Silk Palace to find her food plant. I love this caterpillar!=20 She's brave! She's tough! She's fearless! And most important she is=20 in search of her true self. The Alchemist is nice too, but for an=20 artist I think the caterpillar is more symbolic of the creative=20 chrysalis we must all one day break out of, which we can only truly=20 do when we are authentic. Read these books, please. And if you know=20 anyone who is need of a little inspiration I could recommend no two=20 greater books. Happy Holidays.=20 Always an e-mail away,=20 Janet!!=20 PS. If you should happen to purchase any books with a=20 spiritual/inspirational theme on-line, please send me a discount! Link: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/stl/324SHH61L8H2D/104-9582407- 8058308 Please Forward to anyone in need of artistic or spiritual=20 inspiration. Thank You for helping to spread the light.=20 =20=20=20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MarieMAJ41@aol.com Wed Nov 12 14:45:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 61831 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2003 22:45:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2003 22:45:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.98) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2003 22:45:46 -0000 Received: from MarieMAJ41@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id a.1ad.1c2b9d8a (3699); Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:45:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1ad.1c2b9d8a.2ce4120c@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:45:32 EST Subject: NYTimes: Can Robots Become Conscious? To: theos-talk@egroups.com, theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Blavatsky_Study@egroups.com, Blavatsky_Study-owner@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5002 From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 152.163.225.98 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90655958 X-Yahoo-Profile: olgamarie41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can Robots Become Conscious? November 11, 2003 By KENNETH CHANG It's a three-part question. What is consciousness? Can you put it in a machine? And if you did, how could you ever know for sure? Unlike any other scientific topics, consciousness - the first-person awareness of the world around - is truly in the eye of the beholder. I know I am conscious. But how do I know that you are? Could it be that my colleagues, my friends, my editors, my wife, my child, all the people I see on the streets of New York are actually just mindless automatons who merely act as if they were conscious human beings? That would make this question moot. Through logical analogy - I am a conscious human being, and therefore you as a human being are also likely to be conscious - I conclude I am probably not the only conscious being in a world of biological puppets. Extend the question of consciousness to other creatures, and uncertainty grows. Is a dog conscious? A turtle? A fly? An elm? A rock? "We don't have the mythical consciousness meter," said Dr. David J. Chalmers, a professor of philosophy and director of the Center for Consciousness Studies at the University of Arizona. "All we have directly to go on is behavior." So without even a rudimentary understanding of what consciousness is, the idea of instilling it into a machine - or understanding how a machine might evolve consciousness - becomes almost unfathomable. The field of artificial intelligence started out with dreams of making thinking - and possibly conscious - machines, but to date, its achievements have been modest. No one has yet produced a computer program that can pass the Turing test. In 1950, Alan Turing, a pioneer in computer science, imagined that a computer could be considered intelligent when its responses were indistinguishable from those of a person. The field has evolved to focus more on solving practical problems like complex scheduling tasks than on emulating human behavior. But with the continuing gains in computing power, many believe that the original goals of artificial intelligence will be attainable within a few decades. Some people, like Dr. Hans Moravec, a professor of robotics at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, believe a human being is nothing more than a fancy machine, and that as technology advances, it will be possible to build a machine with the same features, that there is nothing magical about the brain and biological flesh. "I'm confident we can build robots with behavior that is just as rich as human being behavior," he said. "You could quiz it as much as you like about its internal mental life, and it would answer as any human being." To Dr. Moravec, if it acts conscious, it is. To ask more is pointless. Dr. Chalmers regards consciousness as an ineffable trait, and it may be useless to try to pin it down. "We've got to admit something here is irreducible," he said. "Some primitive precursor consciousness could go all the way down" to the smallest, most primitive organisms, even bacteria, he said. Dr. Chalmers too sees nothing fundamentally different between a creature of flesh and blood and one of metal, plastics and electronic circuits. "I'm quite open to the idea that machines might eventually become conscious," he said, adding that it would be "equally weird." And if a person gets into involved conversations with a robot about everything from Kant to baseball, "we'll be as practically certain they are conscious as other people," Dr. Chalmers said. "Of course, that doesn't resolve the theoretical question," he said. But others say machines, regardless of how complex, will never match people. The arguments can become arcane. In his book "Shadows of the Mind," Dr. Roger Penrose, a mathematician at Oxford University in England, enlisted the incompleteness theorem in mathematics. He uses the theorem, which states that any system of theorems will invariably include statements that cannot be proven, to argue that any machine that uses computation - and hence all robots - will invariably fall short of the accomplishments of human mathematicians. Instead, he argues that consciousness is an effect of quantum mechanics in tiny structures in the brain that exceeds the abilities of any computer. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/11/science/11MACH.html?ex=1069533728&ei=1&en=b2 c8d5710ed32897 Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MarieMAJ41@aol.com Wed Nov 12 14:48:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (qmail 26745 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2003 22:48:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2003 22:48:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2003 22:48:49 -0000 Received: from MarieMAJ41@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.1cc.142eb62b (3699); Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:48:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1cc.142eb62b.2ce412c4@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:48:36 EST Subject: NY Times: Do Paranormal Phenomena Exist? To: Blavatsky_Study-owner@yahoogroups.com, Blavatsky_Study@egroups.com, theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5002 From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 152.163.225.100 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90655958 X-Yahoo-Profile: olgamarie41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do Paranormal Phenomena Exist? November 11, 2003 By KENNETH CHANG Mention mind reading, ghosts, premonitions, the bending of spoons through thought or other supposed mysteries of the paranormal, and most scientists will say there are no such things. Polls show that about half of Americans believe in paranormal phenomena. "For some reason, a lot of people want it to be so," said Dr. Robert L. Park, a professor of physics at the University of Maryland and the author of "Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud." "If you can do things with your mind, then the universe is paying attention to you, and that's important to a lot of people." What then to make of researchers at an institute set up by the Iowa-based Maharishi meditation movement who claim meditation reduces violence in Israel and murders in Washington - and publish scientific papers in peer-reviewed journals? Or published peer-reviewed studies indicating that prayer lengthens lives, even when patients don't know that someone is praying for them? The few scientists working on paranormal research, often on their own dime, feel they are following the rules of science yet being excluded from the playing field. "There's really strong pressure not to allow these things to be talked about in a positive way," said Dr. Brian D. Josephson, a professor of physics at Cambridge University who shared the 1973 Nobel Prize in Physics for a fundamental discovery in superconductivity, and now heads the Mind-Matter Unification Project at Cambridge. One experiment Dr. Josephson finds intriguing is the Global Consciousness Project, which records the output from devices that generate random numbers based on electrical noise. Dr. Roger D. Nelson, the project's director, said that for unknown reasons the distribution of random numbers changes noticeably during crises, with a noticeable shift on Sept. 11, 2001. The skeptics, however, say the data do not sway them. Dr. Terence M. Hines, a professor of psychology at Pace University in Pleasantville, N.Y., said, for example, that the prayer studies he had seen were poorly designed - a criticism that is often made of mainstream research as well. (A new, larger study reported last month that prayer by strangers provided no benefits to patients undergoing heart surgery.) More generally, Dr. Hines said, the data claiming to demonstrate paranormal events "always stay at the very edge of perceptibility." As scientists learn more about a phenomenon, they can often refine their experiments to highlight the new effects. Despite years of work, that has not occurred with the paranormal research, Dr. Hines said. Perhaps the biggest reason most scientists dismiss paranormal research is that no one has a good suggestion for how the mind could interact with the physical world. And even Dr. Josephson concedes: "It would have to be something we haven't identified in physical experiments. I think if we can get some sort of model, then people may start to look at it." http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/11/science/11PARA.html?ex=1069533717&ei=1&en=a5 816c585a85dc8d Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MarieMAJ41@aol.com Wed Nov 12 14:54:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 12172 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2003 22:54:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 12 Nov 2003 22:54:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2003 22:54:03 -0000 Received: from MarieMAJ41@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id a.19b.1d015efa (3699); Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:53:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19b.1d015efa.2ce41400@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:53:52 EST Subject: The Universe As A Hologram To: theos-talk@egroups.com, theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Blavatsky_Study-owner@yahoogroups.com, Blavatsky_Study@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5002 From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 152.163.225.100 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90655958 X-Yahoo-Profile: olgamarie41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html The Universe as a Hologram Author unknown Does Objective Reality Exist, or is the Universe a Phantasm? In 1982 a remarkable event took place. At the University of Paris a research team led by physicist Alain Aspect performed what may turn out to be one of the most important experiments of the 20th century. You did not hear about it on the evening news. In fact, unless you are in the habit of reading scientific journals you probably have never even heard Aspect's name, though there are some who believe his discovery may change the face of science. Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart. Somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. The problem with this feat is that it violates Einstein's long-held tenet that no communication can travel faster than the speed of light. Since traveling faster than the speed of light is tantamount to breaking the time barrier, this daunting prospect has caused some physicists to try to come up with elaborate ways to explain away Aspect's findings. But it has inspired others to offer even more radical explanations. University of London physicist David Bohm, for example, believes Aspect's findings imply that objective reality does not exist, that despite its apparent solidity the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram. To understand why Bohm makes this startling assertion, one must first understand a little about holograms. A hologram is a three- dimensional photograph made with the aid of a laser. To make a hologram, the object to be photographed is first bathed in the light of a laser beam. Then a second laser beam is bounced off the reflected light of the first and the resulting interference pattern (the area where the two laser beams commingle) is captured on film. When the film is developed, it looks like a meaningless swirl of light and dark lines. But as soon as the developed film is illuminated by another laser beam, a three-dimensional image of the original object appears. The three-dimensionality of such images is not the only remarkable characteristic of holograms. If a hologram of a rose is cut in half and then illuminated by a laser, each half will still be found to contain the entire image of the rose. Indeed, even if the halves are divided again, each snippet of film will always be found to contain a smaller but intact version of the original image. Unlike normal photographs, every part of a hologram contains all the information possessed by the whole. The "whole in every part" nature of a hologram provides us with an entirely new way of understanding organization and order. For most of its history, Western science has labored under the bias that the best way to understand a physical phenomenon, whether a frog or an atom, is to dissect it and study its respective parts. A hologram teaches us that some things in the universe may not lend themselves to this approach. If we try to take apart something constructed holographically, we will not get the pieces of which it is made, we will only get smaller wholes. This insight suggested to Bohm another way of understanding Aspect's discovery. Bohm believes the reason subatomic particles are able to remain in contact with one another regardless of the distance separating them is not because they are sending some sort of mysterious signal back and forth, but because their separateness is an illusion. He argues that at some deeper level of reality such particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something. To enable people to better visualize what he means, Bohm offers the following illustration. Imagine an aquarium containing a fish. Imagine also that you are unable to see the aquarium directly and your knowledge about it and what it contains comes from two television cameras, one directed at the aquarium's front and the other directed at its side. As you stare at the two television monitors, you might assume that the fish on each of the screens are separate entities. After all, because the cameras are set at different angles, each of the images will be slightly different. But as you continue to watch the two fish, you will eventually become aware that there is a certain relationship between them. When one turns, the other also makes a slightly different but corresponding turn; when one faces the front, the other always faces toward the side. If you remain unaware of the full scope of the situation, you might even conclude that the fish must be instantaneously communicating with one another, but this is clearly not the case. This, says Bohm, is precisely what is going on between the subatomic particles in Aspect's experiment. According to Bohm, the apparent faster-than-light connection between subatomic particles is really telling us that there is a deeper level of reality we are not privy to, a more complex dimension beyond our own that is analogous to the aquarium. And, he adds, we view objects such as subatomic particles as separate from one another because we are seeing only a portion of their reality. Such particles are not separate "parts", but facets of a deeper and more underlying unity that is ultimately as holographic and indivisible as the previously mentioned rose. And since everything in physical reality is comprised of these "eidolons", the universe is itself a projection, a hologram. In addition to its phantomlike nature, such a universe would possess other rather startling features. If the apparent separateness of subatomic particles is illusory, it means that at a deeper level of reality all things in the universe are infinitely interconnected.The electrons in a carbon atom in the human brain are connected to the subatomic particles that comprise every salmon that swims, every heart that beats, and every star that shimmers in the sky. Everything interpenetrates everything, and although human nature may seek to categorize and pigeonhole and subdivide, the various phenomena of the universe, all apportionments are of necessity artificial and all of nature is ultimately a seamless web. In a holographic universe, even time and space could no longer be viewed as fundamentals. Because concepts such as location break down in a universe in which nothing is truly separate from anything else, time and three-dimensional space, like the images of the fish on the TV monitors, would also have to be viewed as projections of this deeper order. At its deeper level reality is a sort of superhologram in which the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously. This suggests that given the proper tools it might even be possible to someday reach into the superholographic level of reality and pluck out scenes from the long-forgotten past. What else the superhologram contains is an open-ended question. Allowing, for the sake of argument, that the superhologram is the matrix that has given birth to everything in our universe, at the very least it contains every subatomic particle that has been or will be -- every configuration of matter and energy that is possible, from snowflakes to quasars, from blue whales to gamma rays. It must be seen as a sort of cosmic storehouse of "All That Is." Although Bohm concedes that we have no way of knowing what else might lie hidden in the superhologram, he does venture to say that we have no reason to assume it does not contain more. Or as he puts it, perhaps the superholographic level of reality is a "mere stage" beyond which lies "an infinity of further development". Bohm is not the only researcher who has found evidence that the universe is a hologram. Working independently in the field of brain research, Standford neurophysiologist Karl Pribram has also become persuaded of the holographic nature of reality. Pribram was drawn to the holographic model by the puzzle of how and where memories are stored in the brain. For decades numerous studies have shown that rather than being confined to a specific location, memories are dispersed throughout the brain. In a series of landmark experiments in the 1920s, brain scientist Karl Lashley found that no matter what portion of a rat's brain he removed he was unable to eradicate its memory of how to perform complex tasks it had learned prior to surgery. The only problem was that no one was able to come up with a mechanism that might explain this curious "whole in every part" nature of memory storage. Then in the 1960s Pribram encountered the concept of holography and realized he had found the explanation brain scientists had been looking for. Pribram believes memories are encoded not in neurons, or small groupings of neurons, but in patterns of nerve impulses that crisscross the entire brain in the same way that patterns of laser light interference crisscross the entire area of a piece of film containing a holographic image. In other words, Pribram believes the brain is itself a hologram. Pribram's theory also explains how the human brain can store so many memories in so little space. It has been estimated that the human brain has the capacity to memorize something on the order of 10 billion bits of information during the average human lifetime (or roughly the same amount of information contained in five sets of the Encyclopaedia Britannica). Similarly, it has been discovered that in addition to their other capabilities, holograms possess an astounding capacity for information storage--simply by changing the angle at which the two lasers strike a piece of photographic film, it is possible to record many different images on the same surface. It has been demonstrated that one cubic centimeter of film can hold as many as 10 billion bits of information. Our uncanny ability to quickly retrieve whatever information we need from the enormous store of our memories becomes more understandable if the brain functions according to holographic principles. If a friend asks you to tell him what comes to mind when he says the word "zebra", you do not have to clumsily sort back through some gigantic and cerebral alphabetic file to arrive at an answer. Instead, associations like "striped", "horselike", and "animal native to Africa" all pop into your head instantly. Indeed, one of the most amazing things about the human thinking process is that every piece of information seems instantly cross- correlated with every other piece of information--another feature intrinsic to the hologram. Because every portion of a hologram is infinitely interconnected with every other portion, it is perhaps nature's supreme example of a cross-correlated system. The storage of memory is not the only neurophysiological puzzle that becomes more tractable in light of Pribram's holographic model of the brain. Another is how the brain is able to translate the avalanche of frequencies it receives via the senses (light frequencies, sound frequencies, and so on) into the concrete world of our perceptions. Encoding and decoding frequencies is precisely what a hologram does best. Just as a hologram functions as a sort of lens, a translating device able to convert an apparently meaningless blur of frequencies into a coherent image, Pribram believes the brain also comprises a lens and uses holographic principles to mathematically convert the frequencies it receives through the senses into the inner world of our perceptions. An impressive body of evidence suggests that the brain uses holographic principles to perform its operations. Pribram's theory, in fact, has gained increasing support among neurophysiologists. Argentinian-Italian researcher Hugo Zucarelli recently extended the holographic model into the world of acoustic phenomena. Puzzled by the fact that humans can locate the source of sounds without moving their heads, even if they only possess hearing in one ear, Zucarelli discovered that holographic principles can explain this ability. Zucarelli has also developed the technology of holophonic sound, a recording technique able to reproduce acoustic situations with an almost uncanny realism. Pribram's belief that our brains mathematically construct "hard" reality by relying on input from a frequency domain has also received a good deal of experimental support. It has been found that each of our senses is sensitive to a much broader range of frequencies than was previously suspected. Researchers have discovered, for instance, that our visual systems are sensitive to sound frequencies, that our sense of smellisin part dependent on what are now called "osmic frequencies", and that even the cells in our bodies are sensitive to a broad range of frequencies. Such findings suggest that it is only in the holographic domain of consciousness that such frequencies are sorted out and divided up into conventional perceptions. But the most mind-boggling aspect of Pribram's holographic model of the brain is what happens when it is put together with Bohm's theory. For if the concreteness of the world is but a secondary reality and what is "there" is actually a holographic blur of frequencies, and if the brain is also a hologram and only selects some of the frequencies out of this blur and mathematically transforms them into sensory perceptions, what becomes of objective reality? Put quite simply, it ceases to exist. As the religions of the East have long upheld, the material world is Maya, an illusion, and although we may think we are physical beings moving through a physical world, this too is an illusion. We are really "receivers" floating through a kaleidoscopic sea of frequency, and what we extract from this sea and transmogrify into physical reality is but one channel from many extracted out of the superhologram. This striking new picture of reality, the synthesis of Bohm and Pribram's views, has come to be called the-holographic paradigm, and although many scientists have greeted it with skepticism, it has galvanized others. A small but growing group of researchers believe it may be the most accurate model of reality science has arrived at thus far. More than that, some believe it may solve some mysteries that have never before been explainable by science and even establish the paranormal as a part of nature. Numerous researchers, including Bohm and Pribram, have noted that many para-psychological phenomena become much more understandable in terms of the holographic paradigm. In a universe in which individual brains are actually indivisible portions of the greater hologram and everything is infinitely interconnected, telepathy may merely be the accessing of the holographic level. It is obviously much easier to understand how information can travel from the mind of individual 'A' to that of individual 'B' at a far distance point and helps to understand a number of unsolvedpuzzles in psychology. In particular, Stanislav Grof feels the holographic paradigm offers a model for understanding many of the baffling phenomena experienced by individuals during altered states of consciousness. In the 1950s, while conducting research into the beliefs of LSD as a psychotherapeutic tool, Grof had one female patient who suddenly became convinced she had assumed the identity of a female of a species of prehistoric reptile. During the course of her hallucination, she not only gave a richly detailed description of what it felt like to be encapsuled in such a form, but noted that the portion of the male of the species's anatomy was a patch of colored scales on the side of its head. What was startling to Grof was that although the woman had no prior knowledge about such things, a conversation with a zoologist later confirmed that in certain species of reptiles colored areas on the head do indeed play an important role as triggers of sexual arousal. The woman's experience was not unique. During the course of his research, Grof encountered examples of patients regressing and identifying with virtually every species on the evolutionary tree (research findings which helped influence the man-into-ape scene in the movie Altered States). Moreover, he found that such experiences frequently contained obscure zoological details which turned out to be accurate. Regressions into the animal kingdom were not the only puzzling psychological phenomena Grof encountered. He also had patients who appeared to tap into some sort of collective or racial unconscious. Individuals with little or no education suddenly gave detailed descriptions of Zoroastrian funerary practices and scenes from Hindu mythology. In other categories of experience, individuals gave persuasive accounts of out-of-body journeys, of precognitive glimpses of the future, of regressions into apparent past-life incarnations. In later research, Grof found the same range of phenomena manifested in therapy sessions which did not involve the use of drugs. Because the common element in such experiences appeared to be the transcending of an individual's consciousness beyond the usual boundaries of ego and/or limitations of space and time, Grof called such manifestations "transpersonal experiences", and in the late '60s he helped found a branch of psychology called "transpersonal psychology" devoted entirely to their study. Although Grof's newly founded Association of Transpersonal Psychology garnered a rapidly growing group of like-minded professionals and has become a respected branch of psychology, for years neither Grof or any of his colleagues were able to offer a mechanism for explaining the bizarre psychological phenomena they were witnessing. But that has changed with the advent of the holographic paradigm. As Grof recently noted, if the mind is actually part of a continuum, a labyrinth that is connected not only to every other mind that exists or has existed, but to every atom, organism, and region in the vastness of space and time itself, the fact that it is able to occasionally make forays into the labyrinth and have transpersonal experiences no longer seems so strange. The holographic paradigm also has implications for so-called hard sciences like biology. Keith Floyd, a psychologist at Virginia Intermont College, has pointed out that if the concreteness of reality is but a holographic illusion, it would no longer be true to say the brain produces consciousness. Rather, it is consciousness that creates the appearance of the brain -- as well as the body and everything else around us we interpret as physical. Such a turnabout in the way we view biological structures has caused researchers to point out that medicine and our understanding of the healing process could also be transformed by the holographic paradigm. If the apparent physical structure of the body is but a holographic projection of consciousness, it becomes clear that each of us is much more responsible for our health than current medical wisdom allows. What we now view as miraculous remissions of disease may actually be due to changes in consciousness which in turn effect changes in the hologram of the body. Similarly, controversial new healing techniques such as visualization may work so well because, in the holographic domain of thought, images are ultimately as real as "reality". Even visions and experiences involving "non-ordinary" reality become explainable under the holographic paradigm. In his book "Gifts of Unknown Things," biologist Lyall Watson describes his encounter with an Indonesian shaman woman who, by performing a ritual dance, was able to make an entire grove of trees instantly vanish into thin air. Watson relates that as he and another astonished onlooker continued to watch the woman, she caused the trees to reappear, then "click" off again and on again several times in succession. Although current scientific understanding is incapable of explaining such events, experiences like this become more tenable if "hard" reality is only a holographic projection. Perhaps we agree on what is "there" or "not there" because what we call consensus reality is formulated and ratified at the level of the human unconscious at which all minds are infinitely interconnected. If this is true, it is the most profound implication of the holographic paradigm of all, for it means that experiences such as Watson's are not commonplace only because we have not programmed our minds with the beliefs that would make them so. In a holographic universe there are no limits to the extent to which we can alter the fabric of reality. What we perceive as reality is only a canvas waiting for us to draw upon it any picture we want. Anything is possible, from bending spoons with the power of the mind to the phantasmagoric events experienced by Castaneda during his encounters with the Yaqui brujo don Juan, for magic is our birthright, no more or less miraculous than our ability to compute the reality we want when we are in our dreams. Indeed, even our most fundamental notions about reality become suspect, for in a holographic universe, as Pribram has pointed out, even random events would have to be seen as based on holographic principles and therefore determined. Synchronicities or meaningful coincidences suddenly makes sense, and everything in reality would have to be seen as a metaphor, for even the most haphazard events would express some underlying symmetry. Whether Bohm and Pribram's holographic paradigm becomes accepted in science or dies an ignoble death remains to be seen, but it is safe to say that it has already had an influence on the thinking of many scientists. And even if it is found that the holographic model does not provide the best explanation for the instantaneous communications that seem to be passing back and forth between subatomic particles, at the very least, as noted by Basil Hiley, a physicist at Birbeck College in London, Aspect's findings "indicate that we must be prepared to consider radically new views of reality". [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From compiler@wisdomworld.org Wed Nov 12 21:22:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98180 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2003 05:22:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2003 05:22:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ams005.ftl.affinity.com) (216.219.253.151) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2003 05:22:22 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([68.55.92.204]) by ams.ftl.affinity.com with ESMTP id <339732-6198>; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:21:25 -0500 Message-ID: <3FB314B9.B3C57D7@wisdomworld.org> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:20:57 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: compiler@wisdomworld.org Subject: Two very informative Q&A articles about "KARMA" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Compiler X-Originating-IP: 216.219.253.151 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld I hope that many readers, especially newcomers to theosophy, will find these two related articles about "KARMA" in the "Letters-Questions-Comment" question & answer department of THEOSOPHY magazine, which is found in the "Additional" articles Index page of my WisdomWorld.org web site, to be very informative and useful. These are the two questions about "karma" that are answered in article numbers 21 & 22 that are so far finished in the department (and the direct links to them): ======================================================= (21) July 1964 [This Question is answered: The fact that so few people are able to "get behind" appearances -- either in events or in men -- seems to be a continuing cause of confusion. Is it possible that a concept of Karma might help one penetrate these outward appearances?] http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/Letters-Questions-Comment/21.html [Note: This department was not in the August, September, and October issues of THEOSOPHY magazine.] (22) November 1964 [This Question is answered: Last month's discussion of Karma raised some further questions: If a person intends to set forces in motion toward a specific end, to initiate a certain kind of activity, how does he know whether the motivation proceeds from the "higher" or the "lower" man? Does one cease to "make karma" by retiring from the world? Does not undue solicitude about making karma, either "good" or "bad," indicate a lack of philosophic understanding of the Law?] http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/Letters-Questions-Comment/22.html ============================================== Just in case you find the above links broken, below is the link to the 13th of 18 sections on the "Additional" articles Index page that is entitled "NINE GROUPINGS OF ARTICLES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE & ADULTS -- MOST OF WHICH ARE IN "QUESTION & ANSWER" FORMAT". The link to the Index page of the "Letters-Questions-Comment" department is the 8th one. After you click on it just scroll down the page to the 21st & 22nd articles http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#13 =================================================== Dear newcomers to Theosophy: I sincerely do hope that my web site offers a well-rounded overall view of Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement. The 3 main links to everything on it are found below. Please know that I'm only the compiler of all the articles found on my web site; I'm not a scholar; and also that I personally do not like to take part in conversations, even though I do hope that what I present from time to time will help a little in the discussions being carried on by others. So please do not be insulted when I do not respond if someone addresses me, or addresses anything that is found in any of the articles on my web site; I leave that for others to deal with if they want to -- whether pro, con, neutral, friendly or unfriendly. John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added (which contains 18 sections that can each be clicked on at the top of the page in order to go directly down to them, as well as to get the link to any particular section that you may want to use in a posting on a discussion board, or in an e-mail to someone): http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html "PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE DEVELOPMENT FORUM": This next link is to the most updated version of my economic proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering world that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org ------- From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Nov 13 07:57:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89496 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2003 15:57:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2003 15:57:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2003 15:57:26 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-04-13.look.ca ([216.154.45.156] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AKJqU-0006Hr-U0; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:57:23 -0500 Message-ID: <3FB3A940.1030305@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:54:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "study@blavatsky.net" , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Theosophy Study List X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re "RE: The Universe As A Hologram" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter2.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=6.5 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.122 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Hey, I think you came up with something, there, Dallas. I suppose Leon might say that that's the kind of thinking he's been trying to get across for years and years and years and years and years and ... I've been speculating along those kinds of lines, too. Still, while that kind of thinking might be a step in some kind of direction (and one might wonder how such thinking might be used, at some point, by whoever ...), seems to me it's all basically exoteric, by itself, offering another essentially dualistic, mayavic perspective. So ... Unless ... Not that ... Speculatively, Mauri PS see: http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 13 10:16:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59506 invoked from network); 13 Nov 2003 18:16:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Nov 2003 18:16:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Nov 2003 18:16:56 -0000 Received: from pool0720.cvx25-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.218.210] helo=DALLAS) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AKM0r-0006Or-00; Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:16:13 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World re "RE: The Universe As A Hologram" Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:16:03 -0800 Message-ID: <000701c3aa12$35d72010$d2dab3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3FB3A940.1030305@idirect.ca> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.54 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Mauri: Question: What is definition of "esotericism" according to you ? Dal -----Original Message----- From: Mauri [mailto:mhart@idirect.ca]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:55 AM To: study@blavatsky.net; theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Theosophy Study List Subject: Theos-World re "RE: The Universe As A Hologram" Hey, I think you came up with something,=20 there, Dallas. I suppose Leon might say that=20 that's the kind of thinking he's been trying=20 to get across for years and years and years=20 and years and years and ... I've been=20 speculating along those kinds of lines, too.=20 Still, while that kind of thinking might=20 be a step in some kind of direction (and one=20 might wonder how such thinking might be used,=20 at some point, by whoever ...), seems to me=20 it's all basically exoteric, by itself,=20 offering another essentially dualistic,=20 mayavic perspective. So ... Unless ... Not=20 that ... Speculatively, Mauri PS see: http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 From eletzerich@yahoo.com Thu Nov 13 23:58:38 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: eletzerich@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 64233 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2003 07:58:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2003 07:58:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2003 07:58:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Nov 2003 07:58:37 -0000 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 07:58:35 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Vortex Theory Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 14645 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Erica Letzerich" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.73 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24163419 X-Yahoo-Profile: eletzerich Hi, I am sending below some information about the Vortex Theory. Any=20 studies upon it?=20 "The Vortex Theory is based upon the hypothesis that time does not=20 exist as a fundamental principle of the universe, but instead, only=20 exists as a phenomenon created by motion, a "shadow" of motion. When=20 this idea was first discovered, to say it was shocking was an=20 understatement.=20 The implications of this single philosophical idea possess=20 disastrous consequences for all of 20th Century science. Every belief=20 based upon the idea of time is at jeopardy. Especially Einstein's=20 Theory of Relativity (Relativity is based upon the existence of a=20 fourth dimension called "SPACE-TIME!"). It was realized that even=20 Newton's laws needed to be looked at again. Although both Einstein and Newton were giants in the world of=20 science, their reasoning processes were both based upon time. They=20 both believed in time. Even though Newton believed time was linear=20 [the same everywhere in the universe], and Einstein believed it was=20 relative, the result was the same =96 they both believed time was a=20 real and fundamental principle of the universe. Because of this fact,=20 they incorporated it into their visions of how the universe was=20 constructed.=20 But if time does not exist as a fundamental principle of the=20 universe, then Einstein's fourth dimension of space-time does not=20 contain any "Time" characteristics. Hence, it can no longer be used=20 as an explanation for the length shrinkage and time dilation effects=20 revealed by Michelson and Morley's famous experiment. To correct this error, the true nature of time must first be=20 discovered. Then because time was used to explain how matter, space,=20 energy, and the forces of nature are constructed =96 we have to start=20 all over again. But this "time", using the correct nature of time, we=20 can rediscover how matter, space, energy, and the forces of nature=20 are really constructed. So how do we do it?=20 When time is eliminated as a cause for these length shrinkage and=20 time dilation effects, the only thing left to explain what is=20 happening is the increased velocity of matter itself as it moves=20 through space. Consequently, there must exist an intrinsic=20 relationship between matter, space, and velocity whose interactions=20 create a mechanical explanation for the results of the Michelson=20 Morley experiment. The original purpose of this study was to discover this intrinsic=20 relationship and then prove or disprove it by using it to explain the=20 length shrinkage and time dilation effects that occur at near light=20 velocities. But what it found went far beyond anything that was=20 originally expected.=20 To state that this study was successful was an understatement. It=20 discovered not only a precise and exact mechanical explanation for=20 the length shrinkage and time dilation effects that nobody knew=20 existed, but it also discovered a shocking and revolutionary vision=20 of the universe unlike anything anyone has ever imagined before.=20 Called the vortex theory for reasons that soon will become apparent,=20 this new and revolutionary vision of the universe, has so far=20 explained every phenomenon of the universe it has been applied to.=20=20 The proof in its original form =96 is written so that it only takes a=20 high school level of math to understand =96 is presented in both books:=20 The End of the Concept of "Time!" and The Vortex Theory.=20 A great mistake exists in science=20=20 The five pieces of the universe: matter, space, time, energy,=20 and the forces of nature are not constructed the way science=20 presently believes. They are constructed in a way totally unlike=20 anything anyone has ever imagined before. .=20 =B7 Their construction, creates a shocking vision of the universe=20 unlike anything anyone has ever seen before. This revolutionary new=20 vision of the universe is not only the Rosetta Stone of Science, it=20 is the greatest scientific discovery ever made. .=20 =B7 These revolutionary ideas are now being introduced to the=20 world's scientific community by the Prestigious Russian Academic=20 Society.=20=20 ______________________________________________________________________ This revolutionary vision changes everything we know:=20 1. Einstein's theory of relativity is now obsolete=20 2. Quantum mechanics is obsolete.=20=20 The end of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics renders the scientific=20 disciplines of physics, chemistry, and astronomy obsolete.=20 Shockingly, every science book in the world that deals with anyone of=20 these subjects is obsolete!=20 Every college science text that deals with any part of anyone of=20 these subjects is obsolete!=20 Not only will a billion books throughout the world have to be=20 discarded and rewritten, but every science course in every school,=20 college, and university will have to be modified. Unfortunately,=20 millions of students are paying billions of dollars for science and=20 engineering educations that are now obsolete!=20 =20 =20 VORTEX THESIS=20 =20 The most basic and fundamental principles of physical science=20 that are used to explain everything else in the universe are=20 themselves mysteries! Although this shocking fact seems=20 unbelievable, it is absolutely true. The fundamental principles of=20 physical science =96 that are also used in: =B7 Engineering=20 =B7 Physics=20 =B7 Chemistry=20 =B7 Thermodynamics=20 =B7 Astronomy=20=20 (and everything else we encounter in the entire physical universe) =96=20 are "fundamental unknowns"! The first and most important of=20 these "fundamental unknowns" is mass, the concept of mass itself. For=20 those who have forgotten or for those who never knew, mass is the=20 single most important scientific characteristic of matter. It is the=20 one characteristic of matter that is used in all of the formulas of=20 physics and engineering to explain the motions of matter. And yet,=20 mass is a mystery! It is a mystery because although science knows=20 what mass does, it does not know what mass is! If you draw a picture=20 of one of the principle pieces of matter such as a proton, electron,=20 or neutron, no scientist in the world can point to its mass. =20 Up until the latter half of the 20th Century, it was believed=20 that the mass of matter and the volume of matter were directly=20 related. For example, the more matter that is packed into a constant=20 volume the more massive it is. However, with the discovery of quarks=20 within protons and neutrons, this idea is no longer valid. =20 Quarks are fantastically small yet possess most of the mass of=20 protons and neutrons. This creates a problem because electrons, whose=20 sizes are absolutely enormous in relation to quarks, possess less=20 mass than quarks, destroying the relationship between mass and=20 volume. Nor does volume explain two other unique characteristics of=20 mass. =20 Mass attracts mass and mass resists acceleration. The attraction=20 is supposedly explained by the existence of a particle called the=20 graviton, yet nobody has ever seen one. Nor has matter's resistance=20 to acceleration ever been explained. =20 Nobody has ever explained the conflict created by the=20 observation that mass attracts mass, creating movement, yet resists=20 movement when a force tries to accelerate it. Why motion is created=20 in one instance yet resisted in the next is not explained or defined=20 even in the definition of mass. Mass is defined as, "an inherent=20 property of matter that is a measure of the amount of matter present=20 in a body"; yet what this inherent property of matter is, or why it=20 exists is [until now] unknown. =20 Hundreds of years ago, Sir Isaac Newton discovered the famous=20 mathematical relationship that describes the attraction of one mass=20 for another mass. He called it the Law of Gravity. And even though he=20 used the principle of mass to discover this great law of physics, not=20 even this greatest of all scientists could explain what mass was. The=20 Law of Gravity only explains what mass does, it cannot explain what=20 mass is. =20 Another great scientist, Albert Einstein, discovered the=20 relationship between mass and energy and used it in his famous=20 equation. But not even the great Albert Einstein knew what mass=20 was. This use of the concept of mass, despite the failure to=20 understand what it is, is most disturbing. For when we realize just=20 how important to the science of physics the concept of mass really=20 is, the failure to explain what it is, is multiplied every time it is=20 used in another equation to explain something else. And mass is used=20 many times in many equations in every branch of science. In fact,=20 mass is used in almost every equation of major importance in physics,=20 engineering, and astronomy. Mass is used in the formulas that are=20 used to explain force, momentum, inertia, acceleration, energy, work,=20 kinetic energy, power, torque, and many more. In fact, practically=20 every essential equation used to explain the workings of the universe=20 uses mass.=20 VORTEX THESIS =20 PAGE 2=20 =20 =20=20=20=20 This great irony of science is most disturbing when we realize=20 that the most well educated and pragmatic men of this era are using a=20 total and complete mystery of the universe in their attempt to=20 explain the other mysteries of the universe! If this failure were=20 but an isolated incident, its importance might be diminished. But it=20 is not =96 it increases dramatically when we realize that energy, the=20 opposite of mass, is also a mystery! It is inconceivable to realize=20 that we =96 who live in the super energy era of space travel, atomic=20 submarines, and five hundred million cars powered by gasoline =96 have=20 no more idea what energy is than a cave man sitting on a rock,=20 staring into the flames of his campfire. Even the electric company=20 that sends us a bill stating we have used so much power in the last=20 month (and are charging us for it!) has no idea what they have just=20 sold us! =20 Not even Albert Einstein =96 who won the Nobel Prize for=20 explaining that energy travels in packets called photons =96 knew what=20 a photon was! Neither he, nor anyone else (until now) knew how a=20 photon is constructed. It is another of the great mysteries of 20th=20 Century science. Although a photon is described as an object that acts as both a=20 particle and a wave, nobody knows why. Nobody knows why because=20 nobody knows what is inside a photon. To understand the great=20 significance of the failure to explain what is inside a photon,=20 consider the following: If photons were some sort of insignificant=20 mundane particle, the failure to explain how a photon is constructed=20 wouldn't matter. But the photon is extremely important. Photons are=20 energy: heat is photons; light is photons. We cannot see without=20 photons. We cannot read this page without photons. Photons are also=20 vitally important to life. We would not be alive without photons.=20 They animate the matter within our bodies allowing us to move.=20 Without motion we cannot survive. No creature would be able to=20 survive without photons; in fact, life itself would not be possible=20 without photons. They animate the life of the physical universe,=20 which makes the failure to know what they are a great failure=20 indeed!=20=20=20 =20 Unfortunately, even though the photons of energy are a mystery,=20 like mass, they are nevertheless used to explain other mysteries.=20 Especially those encountered in the science of thermodynamics!=20=20=20 Listen to this one: after learning that neither mass nor energy has=20 any explanation, the following definition of specific energy from the=20 science of thermodynamics seems almost like a Stand Up Comedian's=20 joke. Believe it or not, specific energy is defined as the energy per=20 unit of mass! But this is not a funny joke because specific energy=20 is used extensively throughout the serious science of thermodynamics.=20 Unfortunately, so is entropy. Entropy is of special importance.=20 Entropy is the amount of energy that a system has used and will never=20 be able to use again [such as the energy pouring out of the Sun].=20 Because of this fact, the entropy of the universe is increasing. But=20 why is it increasing? Nobody knows!=20 One of the most significant observations ever made by science=20 and nobody knows why it is occurring! Nobody knows why energy is=20 pouring out of the sun and all of the stars in the sky; nobody knows=20 why heat is flowing out of all of the living creatures of the earth;=20 or for that matter, why all of the physical matter in the universe=20 appears to be cooling off! Unfortunately, Entropy is only one of many=20 more unexplainable observations in science. In fact many of the=20 most basic and fundamental laws of science itself are nothing more=20 than observations without explanations! There are laws that exist=20 that we have to accept =96 even though we don't know why they exist,=20 such as, the fundamental principles of the science of mechanics =96=20 Newton's Three Laws of Motion!=20=20=20 Newton's three laws of motion are absolutely essential to both=20 the physics and the engineering sciences. In Cowles Encyclopedia of=20 Science Industry and Technology, the importance of these three laws=20 of motion is well stated: "The relationship of force to motion was=20 described in three laws formulated by Sir Isaac Newton. Without these=20 fundamental laws the science of mechanics might well be impossible".=20 Most impressive! A most impressive statement indeed! But what is=20 even more impressive is the shocking fact that these three laws that=20 have been with us for over three hundred years, and are the=20 foundation for the engineering sciences that were and are being used=20 to design every building, ship, car, plane, and train upon this=20 planet, are nothing more than observations without explanations!=20 Newton did not know why they exist. Neither does any scientist or=20 engineer know why they exist! And yet, the entire structure of our=20 world is built upon them! Well so what? What does it matter? What=20 if there are problems with the fundamental principles of science and=20 engineering that no scientist or engineer can answer. Has it hurt us?=20 Has it had any effect on the great astronomical discoveries we have=20 made about the universe, or in the wonderful technologies we have=20 developed? And furthermore, if the greatest scientists who have ever=20 lived failed to solve these problems, what chance does anyone else=20 have (an argument I heard once before)? The above question is very=20 important because the answer to it is even more important. It goes=20 like this: if everything we have today was achieved through error,=20 imagine what we can accomplish using the truth=85" http://thevortextheory.com/ Erica Letzerich From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 14 02:48:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65576 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2003 10:48:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2003 10:48:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2003 10:48:31 -0000 Received: from pool0105.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.105] helo=DALLAS) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AKbUy-0003vI-00; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:48:20 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] re "RE: The Universe As A Hologram" Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:48:07 -0800 Message-ID: <000901c3aa9c$ce427db0$69e2b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.74 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 13 2003 Dear Mauri: Are our own thoughts esoteric? Then we give them a voice by writing or speaking: Do they then become exoteric because they are shared? Dal ======================================== -----Original Message----- From: Mauri Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:55 AM To: Subject: [bn-study] re "RE: The Universe As A Hologram" Hey, I think you came up with something, there, Dallas. I suppose Leon might say that that's the kind of thinking he's been trying to get across for years and years and years and years and years and ... I've been speculating along those kinds of lines, too. Still, while that kind of thinking might be a step in some kind of direction (and one might wonder how such thinking might be used, at some point, by whoever ...), seems to me it's all basically exoteric, by itself, offering another essentially dualistic, mayavic perspective. So ... Unless ... Not that ... Speculatively, Mauri PS see: http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html From dhyana@web.de Fri Nov 14 03:12:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 63652 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2003 11:12:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2003 11:12:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2003 11:12:15 -0000 Received: from computer (cppp-213.blinx.de [62.96.222.213]) by mail.blinx.de (8.12.6/8.12.6/SuSE Linux 0.6) with SMTP id hAEBCAkQ009423 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:12:11 +0100 Message-ID: <002d01c3aaa0$345dd600$152ca8c0@computer> To: Subject: The Holocaust lie - The Truth is on the March Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 12:11:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS - amavis-milter (http://www.amavis.org/) X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Originating-IP: 194.115.26.35 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de The following press release was sent to me. As the Holocaust (burnt offering) on 6 million gassed Jews under Adolf Hitler is regarded by truth seekers as one of the biggest lies of the 20th Century this press release may be also of interest for some Blavatsky students. Also of interest may be that one of the initial founders mentioned below, Ernst Zündel, who recently suffers as an Canadian "Guantanamo Bay"-like prisoner for spreading the truth on the Holocaust (burnt offering), is since many decades a Blavatsky student in the Blavatsky/Point Loma tradition, as old Theosophists affirm. Many believe the Holocaust to be the most powerful religion on Earth, with the most absurd dogmas and the greatest intolerance and violence, with 5.500 temples in Germany alone and thousands of priests. But unexpected for themselves there is recently new historical and legal development. The house of cards of teh Century lies "WWI-WWII-Holocaust-Cold War-Vietnam-Moonlanding-9/11-Iraq" will break down soon. The truth triumphs over the lies. The German Reich rises again and David's little one will beat Goliath once again. Frank > Horst Mahler > on behalf of the "Society for the Rehabilitation of Those persecuted for > Refutation of the Holocaust" (VRBHV) > > Press release > > On a historic date, the 9th of November 2003, the "Society for the > Rehabilitation of Those persecuted for Refutation of the Holocaust" > (VRBHV) was founded in Vlotho, Germany. The German-Swiss history teacher > Bernhard Schaub, who is himself affected by persecution, was elected as > chairman. His deputy is the head of the Collegium Humanum Ursula > Haverbeck-Wetzel. > > Based on the article of the editor-in-chief of the newsmagazine DER > SPIEGEL Fritjof Meyer, "The Number of Victims of Auschwitz - New Insights > due to new Findings in the Archives" which appeared in the magazine > Osteuropa (no. 5/2002) under the responsibility of the former president of > the Bundestag Rita Süßmuth, the society is striving for the resumption of > the proceedings which have led to sentences due to denial or > trivialisation of the Holocaust in accordance with § 130 sects. 3 and 4 > StGB [Penal Code]. > > These sentences are based without exception on the thesis asserted by > ruling historiography, that the millionfold industrial murder of the Jews > which was motivated by racism and which took place under the > responsibility of the German Reich under the Reich Chancellor Adolf Hitler > (known as "Holocaust") is an obvious fact which therefore does not require > proof. > > In his essay, which was examined by numerous public prosecutors' offices > and declared to be innocuous, Meyer advocates the thesis that no mass > killings took place in the mortuaries of the crematoria I and II in the > main camp of Auschwitz, which up until now have been described as the > scene of the crime. The insights of Fritjof Meyer confirm the results of > the research of Prof. Robert Faurisson and Paul Rassinier (France), of > Fred Leuchter and Arthur Butz (USA), of David Irving (UK), of Germar > Rudolf, Wilhelm Stäglich and Udo Walendy (Germany), of Jürgen Graf > (Switzerland), Walter Lüftl and Wolfgang Fröhlich (Austria), of Frederick > Töben (Australia), and of numerous other "revisionists" who have gathered > evidence for the refutation of the so-called Auschwitz-Lie. > > While the historians named above totally deny the mass killings of Jews > through the gas Zyklon B, Fritjof Meyer assumes that the gassings with > Zyklon B probably (!) took place in two farm houses outside the camp > Auschwitz, with "probably (!) 356 000 murdered in the gas" (Jews and > non-Jews). With this the practice of prosecution which is based on the > supposed "obviousness" of the Holocaust has become obvious as being a > crime of the judicial machinery. > > The society is to eliminate the isolation of the persecuted which has > dominated so far, is to guarantee the necessary public awareness of their > struggle for justice, and is to provide the financial means for a > successful judicial struggle. > > Amongst others, the following acted as founders: > > Ernst Zündel, untiring fighter for Germany's honour (in "security custody" > under Guantanamo-like conditions in Canada), and his wife, the novelist > Ingrid Zündel-Rimland (USA) > Prof. Dr. Robert Faurisson (France) > Museum Director Rainer Daehnhardt (Portugal) > Germar Rudolf, author of the "Rudolf Report" (in exile) > Jürgen Graf, author (in exile) > Gerd Honsik, author of the book "Acquittal for Hitler" (in exile) > Wilhelm Stäglich, author of the book "The Auschwitz-Myth" (Germany) > Frederick Töben, director of the "Adelaide Institute for Historical > Research (Australia) > Andres Studer (in exile) > Hans-Dietrich Sander, editor of the Staatsbriefe (Germany) > Manfred Röder, German freedom fighter (in prison) > Frank Rennicke, German singer-songwriter > Hans Schmidt, publisher (USA) > Anneliese Remer, widow of Major General Otto Ernst Remer (Spain) > > In a letter from the 9th of November 2003 to the signatory, Prof. Robert > Faurisson invited "all revisionists" to join the initiative of this > society. > > A copy of this letter in English, German, Italien and French is appended > to this press release. > > Vlotho/Berlin on the 11th of November 2003 > > On authority of the executive committee, > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 14 03:54:28 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53078 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2003 11:54:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2003 11:54:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2003 11:54:27 -0000 Received: from pool0057.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.57] helo=DALLAS) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AKcWr-0004HC-00; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 03:54:22 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: triune man Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 03:54:07 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01c3aaa6$072e6540$69e2b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.74 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 13 2003 Dear friend: The slash of suicide into our feelings and love is terrible, difficult to overcome, but THEOSOPHY offers one view that stabilizes: It says that all humans are immortals as Souls (creative minds), and as "SPIRITS." Bodies die for many reasons but that is not an ultimate destruction. Love, as a divine force, brings a return of the SOUL to life in the future, and usually in the company of loved ones. Each of us shares in SPIRIT (which is the universal sense of honesty and law). And these are represented by a word, said differently in many religions, but conveying the sense of GOD, Deity, Universality, Brotherhood Mercy, Fairness, Consolation, and the assurance that physical death does not create an unbridgeable chasm. It is a temporary loss. So THEOSOPHY gives the assurance that the death of the body, for whatever reason, is not the destruction of that Soul-mind. And, in future, the body will be replaced. Yes, the SPIRIT-SOUL has left the body. But now it will spend a while in stasis, until, under the Law of the Universe, [GOD's Law] it is time to reincarnate again. Jesus speaks of this in the Bible. Both Jesus and John the Baptist were looked on as great Prophets of the past who were reincarnating again, to help and serve their people. The law is a universal one. Everyone reincarnates. Reincarnation will be found at the root teaching of every great reformer or prophet. It means that the immortal soul reincarnates again and usually in the company of those they loved, their ;prior families, now also reincarnated. The cycles once established tend to run concurrently.=20 Let us then look on "death" as a long sleep. We do not sorrow when a loved one goes to sleep ahead of us, we know they will wake up next day. So with death, the waking up is in another body and quite a few years in the future. Let peace be restored with this in mind. An ancient text reads: (It is a report of a conversation between a Sage and his pupil): "Both I and thou have passed through many births, O devotee.=20=20 Mine are known to me, but thou knowest not of thine.=20=20 Thou grievest for those that may not be lamented. Those who are wise in spiritual things grieve neither for the dead nor for the living. I myself never was not, nor thou, nor all the beings and princes of the earth; nor shall we ever hereafter cease to be.=20 Even though myself of changeless essence, and the lord of all existence, yet in presiding over Nature, which is mine, I am born but through my own power of illusion, the mystic power of self-ideation, the Eternal Thought in the Eternal MIND.=20 I am the EGO which is seated in the Heart of all beings. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all existing things. Each, as the "Lord" of this mortal frame, experiences therein infancy, youth, and old age, so in future incarnations will it meet the same.=20=20 These finite bodies which envelope the Souls inhabiting them, are said to belong to HIM, the eternal, the indestructible, unprovable SPIRIT who is in the body; wherefore, O devotee, grieve not.=20=20 The man who believeth that it is the Spirit which killeth, and he who thinketh that it may be destroyed, are both alike deceived; for it neither killeth, nor is it killed; for it is without birth, and meeteth not death; it is ancient, constant and eternal, and is not slain when this, its mortal frame, is destroyed. As a man throweth away old garments and putteth on new, even so, the dweller in the body, having quitted its old mortal frame, entereth into others which are new. The weapon devideth it not, for it is indivisible, inconsumable, incorruptible; it is eternal, universal, permanent, immovable, and, it is invisible, inconceivable, and unalterable. Therefore knowing it to be such, thou shouldst not grieve. One who is confirmed in this belief is not disturbed by anything that may come to pass. There is no existence for that which does not exist, nor is there any non-existence for what exists. By those who see the truth and look into the principles of things, the ultimate characteristic of these both is seen.=20=20=20 The man whose devotion has been broken off by death goeth to the regions of the righteous, where he dwells for an immensity of years, and is then born again on earth in a pure and fortunate family...Being thus born again he comes in contact with the knowledge that belonged tom him in his former body, and from that time he struggles more diligently towards perfection. For even unwittingly, by reason of that past practice, he is led and works on. Even if only a mere enquirer, he reaches beyond the word of the Bibles and the texts... I hope this might be useful. Best wishes, and let the bereaved know we all sorrow with her. And, we all hope. DTB =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Solgarc1 Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 11:19 AM To:=20 Subject: [bn-study] Re: triune man Can someone please help me communicate through (theosophy or any other=20 philosophy or realm) to my friend what a mother of a 15 year-old girl that=20 committed suicide last nite deal with this? Thanks Solgarc From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Nov 14 08:07:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49945 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2003 16:07:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2003 16:07:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2003 16:07:31 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-36.look.ca ([216.154.45.83] helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AKgTp-0000QN-MY; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:07:30 +0000 Message-ID: <3FB4FD22.5060902@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:04:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "study@blavatsky.net" , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Theosophy Study List X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: re "exoteric/esoteric," Dallas and ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter3.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=6.5 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.9 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Dallas wrote: <> Dallas, I've been thinking of the words "esoteric" and "exoteric" in "basically" relative terms (rather speculatively, as you might've noticed, maybe ...), or, in other words, as both being "essentially exoteric," in a sense, in that (my "important qualifier" here, speculatively speaking): in that, on the generally-experienced level (or "generally experienced level of reality," if there is such a thing beyond some kind statistics, maybe ...) ... so on "a level of general explerience," in a sense, of this "physical plane," both of those words, as I see it, might be (easily enough?) seen to refer to essentially dualistic notions, theories, Theosophies, worldviews, etc, regardless of whatever "transcendent/intended" meaning they might be offered as representing or "hinting at in context," as in the case of such as "Esoteric Tradition." In other words, as I tend to see it, if one doesn't have any kind of what might be called "intuitive input" (in keeping with my attempts to turn over some kind of newer leaf, I'm resisting the temptation to go on a tangent here about "karma," you might be glad to know) ... so if one doesn't have much of what might be called "intuitive input" about some kind of "broader meaning" re such as the "Esoteric Tradition," then ... ^:-/ ... and so both of those words, or their combination (exoteric/esoteric) can seem, in a sense (or obviously enough?), I tend to suspect, possibly somewhat elicitive of curiosity (in some cases?) as to what might be "really meant" (ie, regardless of how anybody might see themselves as speculatively, or otherwise, using them, with or without "enough" qualifiers). Anyway, the preceding seems to me to be more or less in keeping with some kind of speculative "somewhat more-specific" attempt on my part to describe something about the interpetive reaction I seem to have formed as a result of the feedback I've had so far from some people to my use of "exoteric" and "esoteric" on these lists. But if my impressions are not seen as relevant enough with respect to whatever sense of reality or relevance, I think it would be nice to hear about that kind of thing "more specifically" (instead of just getting the likes of "there's no such thing, period," etc, not that I'm suggesting anybody might've used those exact words, necessarily). I just noticed that I'm replying to a post that appeared on a list where my posts and qualifiers ... ^:-/ ... Not that ... uh, so I hope you don't mind, Dallas, if I post this reply on another list, as well, just in case ... Actually, in a sense, I think, I tend to find myself being grateful to the moderators of that other list. After all ... ^:-/ ... And seeing as I am, after all, trying to turn over some kind of newer leaf ... Dallas, could you let me know whether or not I answered any of your question/s in this post, or whatever? Speculatively, Mauri PS in case you forgot, I'm still offering that symbol ^:-/ in reference to a confused, speculative guy who, while scratching his head, thought he might've had something "reasonably relevant-enough" to say, maybe, but ... ^:-/ ... From mhart@idirect.ca Fri Nov 14 12:46:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34720 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2003 20:46:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 14 Nov 2003 20:46:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gozer.look.ca) (207.136.80.10) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2003 20:46:55 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-01-27.look.ca ([216.154.45.27] helo=idirect.ca) by gozer.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1AKkqE-0001h4-HY; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:46:54 +0000 Message-ID: <3FB53EA0.6070204@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:44:16 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , "study@blavatsky.net" , Theosophy Study List X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: mhart@idirect.ca Subject: correction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on filter4.look.ca X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-100.0 required=6.5 tests=USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=2.60 X-SA-Exim-Version: 3.0 (built Mon Jun 2 17:21:47 GMT 2003) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes From: Mauri X-Originating-IP: 207.136.80.10 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Sorry, believe it ot not, I honestly forgot (as opposed to dishonestly, I guess ...) to mention in my previous post that that "confused, speculative guy" i was referring to was, in a sense, me. Not that there weren't umpteen other oversights, shortcomings, etc, in that post, per whatever perspective. From netemara888@yahoo.com Fri Nov 14 16:23:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 51519 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2003 00:22:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2003 00:22:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2003 00:22:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2003 00:22:56 -0000 Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 00:22:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Holocaust lie - The Truth is on the March Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002d01c3aaa0$345dd600$152ca8c0@computer> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 6080 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888" X-Originating-IP: 66.218.66.78 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" =20 wrote: > The following press release was sent to me. > As the Holocaust (burnt offering) on 6 million gassed Jews under=20 Adolf > Hitler is regarded by truth seekers as one of the biggest lies of=20 the 20th > Century this press release may be also of interest for some=20 Blavatsky > students. > Also of interest may be that one of the initial founders mentioned=20 below, > Ernst Z=FCndel, who recently suffers as an Canadian "Guantanamo Bay"- like > prisoner for spreading the truth on the Holocaust (burnt=20 offering), is since > many decades a Blavatsky student in the Blavatsky/Point Loma=20 tradition, as > old Theosophists affirm. >=20 > Many believe the Holocaust to be the most powerful religion on=20 Earth, with > the > most absurd dogmas and the greatest intolerance and violence, with=20 5.500 > temples in Germany alone and thousands of priests. But unexpected=20 for > themselves there is recently new historical and legal development. > The house of cards of teh Century lies >=20 > "WWI-WWII-Holocaust-Cold War-Vietnam-Moonlanding-9/11-Iraq" >=20 > will break down soon. > The truth triumphs over the lies. The German Reich rises again and=20 David's > little one will beat Goliath once again. > Frank Interesting. What are you trying to say Frank (or others) that it=20 was a much smaller number? Or that it did not happen at all? BTW it=20 is a lie that it was 6 million Jews. It was Jews for sure in=20 majority but many other groups were killed along with the Jews and=20 they numbered in the millions as well.=20 Just wondering Netemara >=20 >=20 > > Horst Mahler > > on behalf of the "Society for the Rehabilitation of Those=20 persecuted for > > Refutation of the Holocaust" (VRBHV) > > > > Press release > > > > On a historic date, the 9th of November 2003, the "Society for=20 the > > Rehabilitation of Those persecuted for Refutation of the=20 Holocaust" > > (VRBHV) was founded in Vlotho, Germany. The German-Swiss history=20 teacher > > Bernhard Schaub, who is himself affected by persecution, was=20 elected as > > chairman. His deputy is the head of the Collegium Humanum Ursula > > Haverbeck-Wetzel. > > > > Based on the article of the editor-in-chief of the newsmagazine=20 DER > > SPIEGEL Fritjof Meyer, "The Number of Victims of Auschwitz - New=20 Insights > > due to new Findings in the Archives" which appeared in the=20 magazine > > Osteuropa (no. 5/2002) under the responsibility of the former=20 president of > > the Bundestag Rita S=FC=DFmuth, the society is striving for the=20 resumption of >=20 > > the proceedings which have led to sentences due to denial or > > trivialisation of the Holocaust in accordance with =A7 130 sects.=20 3 and 4 > > StGB [Penal Code]. > > > > These sentences are based without exception on the thesis=20 asserted by > > ruling historiography, that the millionfold industrial murder of=20 the Jews > > which was motivated by racism and which took place under the > > responsibility of the German Reich under the Reich Chancellor=20 Adolf Hitler > > (known as "Holocaust") is an obvious fact which therefore does=20 not require > > proof. > > > > In his essay, which was examined by numerous public prosecutors'=20 offices > > and declared to be innocuous, Meyer advocates the thesis that no=20 mass > > killings took place in the mortuaries of the crematoria I and II=20 in the > > main camp of Auschwitz, which up until now have been described=20 as the > > scene of the crime. The insights of Fritjof Meyer confirm the=20 results of > > the research of Prof. Robert Faurisson and Paul Rassinier=20 (France), of > > Fred Leuchter and Arthur Butz (USA), of David Irving (UK), of=20 Germar > > Rudolf, Wilhelm St=E4glich and Udo Walendy (Germany), of J=FCrgen=20 Graf > > (Switzerland), Walter L=FCftl and Wolfgang Fr=F6hlich (Austria), of=20 Frederick > > T=F6ben (Australia), and of numerous other "revisionists" who have=20 gathered > > evidence for the refutation of the so-called Auschwitz-Lie. > > > > While the historians named above totally deny the mass killings=20 of Jews > > through the gas Zyklon B, Fritjof Meyer assumes that the=20 gassings with > > Zyklon B probably (!) took place in two farm houses outside the=20 camp > > Auschwitz, with "probably (!) 356 000 murdered in the gas" (Jews=20 and > > non-Jews). With this the practice of prosecution which is based=20 on the > > supposed "obviousness" of the Holocaust has become obvious as=20 being a > > crime of the judicial machinery. > > > > The society is to eliminate the isolation of the persecuted=20 which has > > dominated so far, is to guarantee the necessary public awareness=20 of their > > struggle for justice, and is to provide the financial means for a > > successful judicial struggle. > > > > Amongst others, the following acted as founders: > > > > Ernst Z=FCndel, untiring fighter for Germany's honour=20 (in "security custody" > > under Guantanamo-like conditions in Canada), and his wife, the=20 novelist > > Ingrid Z=FCndel-Rimland (USA) > > Prof. Dr. Robert Faurisson (France) > > Museum Director Rainer Daehnhardt (Portugal) > > Germar Rudolf, author of the "Rudolf Report" (in exile) > > J=FCrgen Graf, author (in exile) > > Gerd Honsik, author of the book "Acquittal for Hitler" (in exile) > > Wilhelm St=E4glich, author of the book "The Auschwitz-Myth"=20 (Germany) > > Frederick T=F6ben, director of the "Adelaide Institute for=20 Historical > > Research (Australia) > > Andres Studer (in exile) > > Hans-Dietrich Sander, editor of the Staatsbriefe (Germany) > > Manfred R=F6der, German freedom fighter (in prison) > > Frank Rennicke, German singer-songwriter > > Hans Schmidt, publisher (USA) > > Anneliese Remer, widow of Major General Otto Ernst Remer (Spain) > > > > In a letter from the 9th of November 2003 to the signatory,=20 Prof. Robert > > Faurisson invited "all revisionists" to join the initiative of=20 this > > society. > > > > A copy of this letter in English, German, Italien and French is=20 appended > > to this press release. > > > > Vlotho/Berlin on the 11th of November 2003 > > > > On authority of the executive committee, > > > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 14 17:27:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: Earthlink.dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 13110 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2003 01:27:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2003 01:27:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2003 01:27:53 -0000 Received: from pool1296.cvx16-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.55.21] helo=DALLAS) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AKpE5-00041A-00; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:27:50 -0800 To: "AA-BN--Study" Subject: RE: Theos-World re "exoteric/esoteric," Dallas and ... Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:27:34 -0800 Message-ID: <000101c3ab17$aa325a50$1537b3d1@DALLAS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: <3FB4FD22.5060902@idirect.ca> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-eGroups-From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" From: "W. Dallas TenBreoeck" Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.22 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Nov 14 2003 Dear Mauri: Well enough for a Friday and a Saturday chat. How would you define "intuitive input?" I know from examination that my mind and brain are, respectively, one the master and the other the servant. I direct my brain to activate neural channels to produce physical actions that express my thoughts. This is done by design and not by chance, guess, luck or some other agency. Yet I also know I am not "physical." The -physical instrument is a kind of self-supporting condominium I am allowed to use and direct. But I do not confuse the two functions or aspects of: "myself." Have you a parallel experience ? Next: What is an "esoteric tradition ?" People have written but not well defined that.-- so to me it is words, no ideas. Again What is "a general experienced level of reality? How can we presume to think that our level is also someone else's? We have such problems with words that meanings get badly distorted usually. One might say demi-coherencies? Let us see if this makes any sense. Dal =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Mauri=20 Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 8:05 AM To: study@blavatsky.net;=20 Subject: re "exoteric/esoteric," Dallas and ... Dallas wrote: <> Dallas, I've been thinking of the words=20 "esoteric" and "exoteric" in "basically"=20 relative terms (rather speculatively, as you=20 might've noticed, maybe ...), or, in other=20 words, as both being "essentially exoteric,"=20 in a sense, in that (my "important qualifier"=20 here, speculatively speaking): in that, on=20 the generally-experienced level (or=20 "generally experienced level of reality," if=20 there is such a thing beyond some kind=20 statistics, maybe ...) ... so on "a level of=20 general explerience," in a sense, of this=20 "physical plane," both of those words, as I=20 see it, might be (easily enough?) seen to=20 refer to essentially dualistic notions,=20 theories, Theosophies, worldviews, etc,=20 regardless of whatever=20 "transcendent/intended" meaning they might be=20 offered as representing or "hinting at in=20 context," as in the case of such as "Esoteric=20 Tradition." In other words, as I tend to see it, if one=20 doesn't have any kind of what might be called=20 "intuitive input" (in keeping with my=20 attempts to turn over some kind of newer=20 leaf, I'm resisting the temptation to go on a=20 tangent here about "karma," you might be glad=20 to know) ... so if one doesn't have much of=20 what might be called "intuitive input" about=20 some kind of "broader meaning" re such as the=20 "Esoteric Tradition," then ... ^:-/ ... and=20 so both of those words, or their combination=20 (exoteric/esoteric) can seem, in a sense (or=20 obviously enough?), I tend to suspect,=20 possibly somewhat elicitive of curiosity (in=20 some cases?) as to what might be "really=20 meant" (ie, regardless of how anybody might=20 see themselves as speculatively, or=20 otherwise, using them, with or without=20 "enough" qualifiers). Anyway, the preceding seems to me to be more=20 or less in keeping with some kind of=20 speculative "somewhat more-specific" attempt=20 on my part to describe something about the=20 interpetive reaction I seem to have formed as=20 a result of the feedback I've had so far from=20 some people to my use of "exoteric" and=20 "esoteric" on these lists. But if my=20 impressions are not seen as relevant enough=20 with respect to whatever sense of reality or=20 relevance, I think it would be nice to hear=20 about that kind of thing "more specifically"=20 (instead of just getting the likes of=20 "there's no such thing, period," etc, not=20 that I'm suggesting anybody might've used=20 those exact words, necessarily). I just noticed that I'm replying to a post=20 that appeared on a list where my posts and=20 qualifiers ... ^:-/ ... Not that ... uh, so I=20 hope you don't mind, Dallas, if I post this=20 reply on another list, as well, just in case=20 ... Actually, in a sense, I think, I tend to=20 find myself being grateful to the moderators=20 of that other list. After all ... ^:-/ ... And seeing as I am, after all, trying to turn=20 over some kind of newer leaf ... Dallas, could you let me know whether or not=20 I answered any of your question/s in this=20 post, or whatever? Speculatively, Mauri From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Nov 14 17:59:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71345 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2003 01:59:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2003 01:59:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2003 01:59:22 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar7-4-3-084-192.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.3.84.192] helo=sprynet.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1AKpib-0002sd-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 17:59:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3FB588D7.8030009@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:00:55 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Holocaust lie - The Truth is on the March References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Originating-IP: 207.217.120.62 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 netemara888 wrote: > Interesting. What are you trying to say Frank (or others) that it > was a much smaller number? Or that it did not happen at all? BTW it > is a lie that it was 6 million Jews. It was Jews for sure in > majority but many other groups were killed along with the Jews and > they numbered in the millions as well. About 6,000,000 Jews, about 3,000,000 non-Jews. Bart From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Fri Nov 14 19:21:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27142 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2003 03:21:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2003 03:21:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout4.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.27) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2003 03:21:46 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([217.132.213.111]) by mxout4.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.14 (built Mar 18 2003)) with SMTP id <0HOD008ECIO5Q5@mxout4.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 15 Nov 2003 05:21:44 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 05:21:24 +0200 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Holocaust lie - The Truth is on the March To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <004a01c3ab27$8c59de80$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <3FB588D7.8030009@sprynet.com> From: Etzion Becker X-Originating-IP: 194.90.9.27 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 X-Yahoo-Profile: etzion7398 I usually abstain from these discussions. I think the guy who posts these things needs some urgent help. Anyway, some of the records say that five million non-jews were exterminated. Eichman didn't deny his part of killing half a million Hungarian Jews, just a few months before the end of the war; his argument was that he simply was a soldier and obeyed the orders of a legal government. Recently I am reading the book "A Path Towards Forgiveness", by Michael Shuster. This is a form of channeling with Adolph Hitler and other leaders who participated with this war. I am usually skeptic about such books, but what there is, that many of what Mr Hitler is saying about himself, I know from other sources. It rings quite true to me. He admits ordering the extermination of jewish population, as a last resort after he knew well that his military campaign was lost. He contracted syphilis from a Jewish whore during the early thirties, and this added to his mania against Judaism and the need to purify the world from the Jewish evil. Mr Shuster, who was born as a Jew, claims that he was an SS war criminal who participated with the extermination programme, and he confirmed this through various methods. He Jewish incarnation as part of his spiritual recovery, after he admitted his mistake. (while living in the non-physical worlds). There were population records by the Polish government before the war, and there one can learn how many Jews lived in the then Poland, and how many remained after the war. Whatever that is, I know only about one little village in the then Poland, now Belarus, were a few thousand Jews were shot dead soon after the Germans entered their village. My father and his friends counted all the people of the town, they got all the names and photographs, etc. The few survivors told what happened. I have still one close-relative who is still alive, and she was telling me the stories how German soldiers poured gasoline on Jewish children in Vilna Ghetto and set them on fire, for their utter delight. Another far relative of mine, who is still alive, survived because she had to *serve*, guess how, in order to save her life. I think Mr Reitheimer, will be granted the opportunity of taking Jewish births, as many as needed, in order to help him sort out his brains, which is badly needed, and find out on his flesh what all this is about. I think he will have a most interesting odyssey. Etzion ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 4:00 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Holocaust lie - The Truth is on the March > netemara888 wrote: > > Interesting. What are you trying to say Frank (or others) that it > > was a much smaller number? Or that it did not happen at all? BTW it > > is a lie that it was 6 million Jews. It was Jews for sure in > > majority but many other groups were killed along with the Jews and > > they numbered in the millions as well. > > About 6,000,000 Jews, about 3,000,000 non-Jews. > > Bart > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From MarieMAJ41@aol.com Fri Nov 14 20:39:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 25704 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2003 04:39:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2003 04:39:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m07.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.162) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2003 04:39:41 -0000 Received: from MarieMAJ41@aol.com by imo-m07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id r.b0.411ba131 (3657) for ; Fri, 14 Nov 2003 23:39:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 23:39:38 EST Subject: The Eternal Now To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5002 From: MarieMAJ41@aol.com X-Originating-IP: 64.12.136.162 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=90655958 X-Yahoo-Profile: olgamarie41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sufi, I found your question rather interesting. Where indeed is Madame Blavatsky's dress [or her shawl, or whatever]. Even as we ask that question, we could ask, "Where is Madame Blavatsky?" I think that all the appurtenances of Mme. Blavatsky, and of herself, still exist, frozen in a moment in time, frozen in the Eternal Now. We are frozen in the Eternal Now. Every object and place we are connected to is frozen in the Eternal Now. Every body we have occupied, every thought we have thought, every word we have uttered, every action done and undone is frozen in the Eternal No