From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu May 01 11:09:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 1 May 2003 18:09:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 37955 invoked from network); 1 May 2003 18:09:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 May 2003 18:09:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 May 2003 18:09:49 -0000 Received: from pool0664.cvx30-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.142.154] helo=earthlink) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19BIV6-0000xr-00; Thu, 01 May 2003 11:09:44 -0700 To: "AA-BN--Study" , Subject: RE: esoteric/exoteric, Duty - Brotherhood - Progress Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:11:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Thursday, May 01, 2003 Re: conflicts -- obstacles to Progress. Dear Munise: and All: Is it not strange that most of the "news" we receive is directed at the iniquities of the world? At the un-brotherliness that prevails; and, then, of the fact that eventually some Justice prevails, and inequities uncovered are pursued and punished (under human justice) in the glare of publicity? as I see it, Theosophy says: First consider the extent to which we are involved, directly under our own Karma, or rather remotely, under the Karma of our nation, or the world Next: We all sense when "things are wrong." We have a built-in sense of justice and rightness. It is activated when we perceive what is obviously abusive -- specially of ourselves, and remotely of situations (as presented). What then do we do? Accept, protest, drive through to right a wrong and exercise our rights as citizens to receive fair and equal treatment? Do we permit the people in "government" to default in their performance? If so are we not adding to bad government? Would "government" be necessary if we all did our duty and added charity and generosity to our daily treatment of others and regard for their living, needs and protection? Do we offer help in need, or, do we withdraw, saying: "I do not wish to be involved?" Some conflicts are not directly ours, some are very much so. The fact that our attention is drawn to a situation of injustice implies we are related to it, and we ought to feel obligated to do something about it. That is, if it is our duty to do so. But this does not mean we ought to spend our life looking for these things. Karma sees that we get notice of the things we are most concerned with. If we pass them by, for whatever reason, we are only increasing the KARMIC link, not diminishing it, or settling some inequity. This kind of thought (as meditation -- or concentrated thought) leads to discrimination, Some feel this more acutely than others and they pick a cause to work on as they continue with their duties and lives. It is a sharing. But the object for such work ought to be impartial and not for any personal recognition.. If you ask about our duty, then we have to determine that. It is part of the process of our own individual development and the sensitizing of our personality to essentials and non-essentials. We alone can do that -- just as we alone in school as children decided whether we would exert ourselves to learn as much, or as least as possible. And later on in life, we continued to decide what part we would play in the world of labor or in any other area of common need. Our whole life has been made of this kind of decision-making, and it is the "Path" that we choose from moment to moment. The "Path" of a devotee or a disciple is part of that, an extension of it -- as one feels with greater clarity the debts we owe to our fellow men, and to humanity at large, and finally to ourselves. We all share in each other in real fact, and we have to elect to share even more by thinking about this relationship which cannot be extinguished. [If we are indeed immortal Monads, then this immortality makes us eternal brothers -- the bond is renewed every life-time. Time and distance have no relevance in such cases. witness the speed and convenience of the INTERNET -- we speak to each other almost instantly -- a little slower than thought-contacts.] Isn't it curious that we are only occasionally aware of others' thoughts? The "personality" with all its likes and dislikes "floats around" -- and in the long run, what does the personality get as benefit? If one thought about that, then there would be greater control and beneficent changes would occur in our outlook and in our actions and inter-actions with others. We ought to consider what is best for the "personality." Then knowing that we could direct our choices to a benefit that includes it as well as others'. Have you aver thought as to why "governments" were instituted? Is it not because groups of humans and individuals have failed to consider the needs and rights of others? Have treated them as "strangers" Even, as prey if they are less "educated," or, unwary. So we have iniquity and people are victimized. Why? Because the majestic rule of LAW (KARMA) is lost sight of. We think (personality, not the INDIVIDUALITY) that we can deceive it, or hide from it. Such a short-sighted concept. All we do then, is to promote evil -- of many kinds. Yet, in the end, the "personality" dis, and any temporary acquisitions or benefits, are re-distributed. If we are immortal Monads, then we reincarnate together again and again, and never loose touch with others we know and live with today. The whole race, all around the world are our FAMILY -- the FAMILY OF MAN. We ought to re-read Plato's REPUBLIC with this in mind. Also towards the end of H P B's KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) there are valuable sections on living a brotherly life. Best wishes, as always. Dallas ================================= -----Original Message----- From: Munise Y Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:53 AM To: Subject: Re: esoteric/exoteric Dear Dallas, All This definition perfectly fits to what I observe about events or people around from time to time: "floating around" business and "floating around" lives. If one wouldn't be putting effort to resolve conflicts or right effort to resolve conflicts, don't ask questions about people events or themselves. What other thing could happen? Best regards Munise ============================ >From: "Dallas " > >Wednesday, April 30, 2003 > >Dear Mauri: > >You ask > >Why do we have Yoga's, meditations, "just being"? > > >I don't understand this. > >To me meditation is concentrated thought on a selected subject. >Nothing else. > >What does it mean to you? > > > >For this purpose I draw together all that I can find relating to >that subject and then sort it out and try to find any pattern in >the reports. > >How else to proceed. > > >Yes we have our day to day wakening thoughts and ideas. But note >the WE select that level t consider. > >What we know about dreams and the dream state is rather scanty >and indefinite. Why ? > >What are the things we are sure of? > >You can't build an "EMPIRE STATE BUILDING" on the sands of the >shore, you have to have solid rock. To speculate is fine. But >your rock in that case is yourself -- the "I" inside which you >assume to be consistent and permanent regardless of the states it >is in, or observes, or passes through. Am I right ? > >If everything is cloudy, and insecure, variable and in constant >flux, then how can ideas or words (used to define experiences) >be ever useful -- they would change in meaning and value every >moment as the mind passes from subject to subject, object, or >from question, to speculation as to event or its values. > >Are you content with bouncing with the fleecy clouds of >imagination or are you seeking some base that an be defined? >Some "starting point," or, a "point of ultimate resolution -- or >an arrival ?" > >Personally floating around is unhelpful, it costs time and energy >but seems to have little or no goal. > >How does it help you, me or any one, with living -- at least in >this world of three dimensions (4 if you include "time") that >appears common in general experience and in logic that unites >us.? > >So I am truly puzzled. > >Dallas From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri May 02 03:10:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 10:10:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 96956 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 10:09:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 10:09:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.12) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 10:09:59 -0000 Received: from pool0162.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.232.162] helo=earthlink) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19BXTr-000685-00; Fri, 02 May 2003 03:09:27 -0700 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: H P B == MESSENGER or FRAUD ? FIND OU. Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 03:10:59 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Friday, May 02, 2003 Re: CROSS IN SYMBOLOGY & ATMA - BUDDHI Dear Peter you quoted something I wrote : DTB H P B explains in both I U and the S D that JAVAH (Jehovah) is really JAH (male -- the vertical line of the "cross") and HEVA (Eve -- female, the horizontal line of the "cross") These two are ever-conjoined. They correspond on this plane to ATMA-BUDDHI the eternal Monad on the Superior Plane of SPIRIT. The cross inscribed in a circle indicates the DIVINE is encased in a vehicle of matter at this cycle of its evolution. Can you provide a reference for this? ========================================= 05/02/2003 2:25 AM Dear Peter: I may not have an exact reference that says this. But I derived it from some statements such as those below. May I first offer as a concept: This is what I understand Theosophy to teach. Let me know if you feel I am "off track" please, I use the tables relative to the 7 Principles in Man and Universe that are available to us in S D II 596; S D I 157, 181, 200, 242-6; Key pp. 91-2, 135-6, 175-6, and others --------------------- As a fundamental idea we are told that the CONSCIOUSNESS that we employ is unitary (for us, as we have each our own). Its source is of course UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS [LIFE] which is derived directly from the ATMAN. It is in fact an aspect of it. The Higher Self (of each human), which is One with ATMA, is also One with all Rays of the ATMAN at the core of each Monad (human or otherwise). Behind all, as the eternal background, is the inscrutable ABSOLUTENESS -- the continuum from, and in which, Universes roll out and roll back. Ours, being a continuation of the process, we are right in the middle of the unending process of "becoming." [4th Round, 4th Globe, 5th Race, 5th Sub-Race from S D I 200] It animates successively (in the human): BUDDHI (wisdom) and MANAS (the thinking principle). These, on the Universal scale are respectively called, among other designations, MULAPRAKRITI or MAHABUDDHI, and MAHAT or UNIVERSAL MIND. Thus the Monad in evolution (as we all are) is actually not a duad (ATMA-BUDDHI) but a Triad (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS). These are the immortal spiritual Principles. Manas offers a link of intelligence (of the powers of the Higher Mind -- Buddhi-Manas) to that group of close-linked Monadic intelligences that have developed together in cooperation, through the lower kingdoms until they now provide a responsive and finely developed "vehicle of matter" -- which is sensitive enough to receive and mirror an aspect of BUDDHI-MANAS the Higher Mind. This "vehicle" is, in our "Personality" what we call "the higher aspect of the Lower-Manas" -- or unselfish-desireless Kama-Manas) Think of them as the "skandhas" aggregating because of affinity, around the developing Monadic consciousness that is "our 'personal' selves," and which we are able to call, in the here and now, our Lower Manasic self. It is the brain-consciousness and in each incarnation it is limited. But, although limited, it has the potentiality of contacting and linking itself to the Highest source of its own consciousness -- its HIGHER SELF the "Divine Tutor" within -- the ATMA (see S D II 167). This mirror is, in each of us, that which has been called the Lower Mind or Kama-Manas. But, note that along with that, there is also "the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS which pierces up and down the 7 planes of being and serves to uphold the memory of the experiences on each of those planes." (Gita Notes pp. 98-100) The level of Kama-Manas is one such level. (see SD I 157-8, 181, II 167) Therefore that which survives death is the immortal aspect of ourselves. that grows constantly while the many changing personalities come and go, fade or leave a favorable impress on the eternal EGO. ================================= Here is what H P B says on this question of immortality and survival after death of the body:: "A sceptic in my early life, I had sought and obtained through the Masters the full assurance of the existence of a principle (not Personal God)--"a boundless and fathomless ocean" of which my "soul" was a drop. Like the Adwaitis, I made no difference between my Seventh Principle and the Universal Spirit, or Parabrahm; nor did, or do I believe in an individual, segregated spirit in me, as a something apart from the whole. And see, for proof, my remark about the "omnipotence of man's immortal spirit"--which would be a logical absurdity upon any theory of egoistic separation. My mistake was that throughout the whole work I indifferently employed the words Parabrahm and God to express the same idea: a venial sin surely, when one knows that the English language is so poor that even at this moment I am using the Sanskrit word to express one idea and the English one for the other! Whether it be orthodox Adwaita or not, I maintain as an occultist, on the authority of the Secret Doctrine, that though merged entirely into Parabrahm, man's Spirit while not individual per se, yet preserves its distinct individuality in Paranirvana, owing to the accumulation in it of the aggregates, or skandhas that have survived after each death, from the highest faculties of the Manas. The most spiritual--i.e., the highest and divinest aspirations of every personality follow Buddhi and the Seventh Principle into Devachan (Swarga) after the death of each personality along the line of rebirths, and become part and parcel of the Monad. The personality fades out, disappearing before the occurrence of the evolution of the new personality (rebirth) out of Devachan: but the individuality of the spirit-soul [dear, dear, what can be made out of this English!] is preserved to the end of the great cycle (Maha-Manwantara) when each Ego enters Paranirvana, or is merged in Parabrahm. To our talpatic, or mole-like, comprehension the Human Spirit is then lost in the One Spirit, as the drop of water thrown into the sea can no longer be traced out and recovered. But de facto it is not so in the world of immaterial thought. This latter stands in relation to the human dynamic thought, as, say, the visual power through the strongest conceivable microscope would to the sight of a half-blind man: and yet even this is a most insufficient simile--the difference is "inexpressible in terms of foot-pounds." That such Parabrahmic and Paranirvanic "spirits," or units, have and must preserve their divine (not human) individualities, is shown in the fact that, however long the "night of Brahma" or even the Universal Pralaya (not the local Pralaya affecting some one group of worlds) yet, when it ends, the same individual Divine Monad resumes its majestic path of evolution, though on a higher, hundredfold perfected and more pure chain of earths than before, and brings with it all the essence of compound spiritualities from its previous countless rebirths. Spiral evolution, it must be remembered, is dual, and the path of spirituality turns, corkscrew-like, within and around physical, semi-physical, and supra-physical evolution. " H P B Articles III p. 264-6; "I U and the Visishtadwaita" ------------------------------------------ See below the last para which I have italicized -- DTB CROSS AND FIRE Article by H. P. Blavatsky PERHAPS the most widespread and universal among the symbols in the old astronomical systems, which have passed down the stream of time to our century, and have left traces everywhere in the Christian religion as elsewhere,--are the Cross and the Fire--the latter, the emblem of the Sun. The ancient Aryans had them both as the symbols of Agni. Whenever the ancient Hindu devotee desired to worship Agni--says E. Burnouf (Science des Religions, c. 10)--he arranged two pieces of wood in the form of a cross, and, by a peculiar whirling and friction obtained fire for his sacrifice. As a symbol, it is called Swastica, and, as an instrument manufactured out of a sacred tree and in possession of every Brahmin, it is known as Arani. The Scandinavians had the same sign and called it Thor's Hammer, as bearing a mysterious magneto-electric relation to Thor, the god of thunder, who, like Jupiter armed with his thunderbolts, holds likewise in his hand this ensign of power, over not only mortals but also the mischievous spirits of the elements, over which he presides. In Masonry it appears in the form of the grand master's mallet; at Allahabad it may be seen on the Fort as the Jaina Cross, or the Talisman of the Jaina Kings; and the gavel of the modern judge is no more than this crux dissimulata--as de Rossi, the archæologist calls it; for the gavel is the sign of power and strength, as the hammer represented the might of Thor, who, in the Norse legends splits a rock with it, and kills Medgar. Dr. Schliemann found it in terra cotta disks, on the site, as he believes, of ancient Troy, in the lowest strata of his excavations; which indicated, according to Dr. Lundy, "an Aryan civilization long anterior to the Greek--say from two to three thousand years B.C." Burnouf calls it the oldest form of the cross known, and affirms that it is found personified in the ancient religion of the Greeks under the figure of Prometheus "the fire-bearer," crucified on mount Caucasus, while the celestial bird--the Cyena of the Vedic hymns,--daily devours his entrails. Boldetti, (Osservazioni I., 15, p. 60) gives a copy from the painting in the cemetery of St. Sebastian, representing a Christian convert and grave-digger, named Diogenes, who wears on both his legs and right arm the signs of the Swastica. The Mexicans and the Peruvians had it, and it is found as the sacred Tau in the oldest tombs of Egypt. It is, to say the least, a strange coincidence, remarked even by some Christian clergymen, that Agnus Dei, the Lamb of God, should have the symbols, identical with the Hindu God Agni. While Agnus Dei expiates and takes away the sins of the world, in one religion, the God Agni, in the other, likewise expiates sins against the gods, man, the manes, the soul, and repeated sins; as shown in the six prayers accompanied by six oblations. (Colebrooke--Essays, Vol. I, p. 190.) If, then, we find these two--the Cross and the Fire--so closely associated in the esoteric symbolism of nearly every nation, it is because on the combined powers of the two rests the whole plan of the universal laws. In astronomy, physics, chemistry, in the whole range of natural philosophy, in short, they always come out as the invisible cause and the visible result; and only metaphysics and alchemy--or shall we say Metachemistry, since we prefer coining a new word to shocking sceptical ears?--can fully and conclusively solve the mysterious meaning. An instance or two will suffice for those who are willing to think over hints. The Central Point, or the great central sun of the Kosmos, as the Kabalists call it, is the Deity. It is the point of intersection between the two great conflicting powers--the centripetal and centrifugal forces, which drive the planets into their elliptical orbits, that make them trace a cross in their paths through the Zodiac. These two terrible, though as yet hypothetical and imaginary powers, preserve harmony and keep the Universe in steady, unceasing motion; and the four bent points of the Swastica typify the revolution of the Earth upon its axis. Plato calls the Universe a "blessed god" which was made in a circle and decussated in the form of the letter X. So much for astronomy. In Masonry the Royal Arch degree retains the cross as the triple Egyptian Tau. It is the mundane circle with the astronomical cross upon it rapidly revolving; the perfect square of the Pythagorean mathematics in the scale of numbers, as its occult meaning is interpreted by Cornelius Agrippa. Fire is heat,--the central point; the perpendicular ray represents the male element or spirit; and the horizontal one the female element--or matter. Spirit vivifies and fructifies the matter, and everything proceeds from the central point, the focus of Life, and Light, and Heat, represented by the terrestrial fire. So much, again, for physics and chemistry, for the field of analogies is boundless, and Universal Laws are immutable and identical in their outward and inward applications. .... [H P B Articles II p. 490; Mod. Panarion, p. 290; =============================================== Some of these statements seemed relevant to this -- DTB From: DIALOGUE ON THE MYSTERIES OF THE AFTER LIFE by H. P. Blavatsky ON THE CONSTITUTION OF THE INNER MAN AND ITS DIVISION H P B Art II. p. 194; (Lucifer -- January 1889) P. 195 In Occultism, every qualificative change in the state of our consciousness gives to man a new aspect, and if it prevails and becomes part of the living and acting EGO, it must be (and is) given a special name, to distinguish the man in that particular state from the man he is when he places himself in another state. P. 195 ... man acts on this, or another plane of consciousness, in strict accordance with his mental and spiritual condition. P. 195 ...his reasoning soul or "spirit." SPIRIT ... (in the sense of the ABSOLUTE, and therefore Indivisible ALL) or ATMA -- that which IS, in Eternity, and as the ALL ...cannot be absent from even the tiniest geometrical or mathematical point of the universe of matter or substance...it is that point in metaphysical Space which the human Monad and its vehicle man, occupy for the period of every life. Now that point is as imaginary as man himself, and in reality is an illusion, a maya...Occultism calls it the seventh principle, the synthesis of the six P. 204 ...the consciousness of one life can disappear either fully or partially; in the case of a thorough materialist, no vestige of that personality which disbelieved remains in the series of lives. No materialist, if a good man, however unbelieving, can die forever in the fulness of his spiritual individuality. P. 197 ...the fundamental laws of the spiritual world...are immutable, no exception is possible. But there are rules for those who see, and rules for those who prefer to remain blind. P. 197 ...believing firmly in our Esoteric Doctrine, which refers to the Post-mortem period, or the interval between two lives or births as merely a transitory state, I say:-- Whether that interval between two acts of the illusionary drama of life lasts one year or a million, that post-mortem state may, without any breach of the fundamental law, prove to be just the same state as that of a man who is in a dead swoon. P. 198 ...the spiritual law of continuity applies only to things which are truly real. P. 198 Iswara is the collective consciousness of the manifested deity, Brahmâ, i.e., the collective consciousness of the Host of Dhyan Chohans; and Pragna is their individual wisdom. P. 199 Karma acts incessantly; we reap in our after-life only the fruit of that which we have ourselves sown, or rather created, in our terrestrial existence. ============================================================ I find in I U mention and explanation of the universal law of correspondences I U I 306-7 On p. 309, H P B hints Man is a synthesis of the Universe. Primordial Knowledge and Teachings are mentioned, S D II 215, 272-3. If there is any attempt to separate ATMA from BUDDHI, or SPIRIT from MATTER, the Law compels a reunion. In our word and on this plane at this time the separation of the sexes illustrates this S D II 215 and 216 Same for "Good and Evil" [ I U II 480-1 ]. They cannot be separated, but always coexist. Our task is to Master this law and apply it all the time. Important statements on interpreting Symbols S D I 443-5; II 81, 335, 469 ================ Please let me know if there is any disagreement, Dal -----Original Message----- From: peter.m [ Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:07 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] RE: H P B == MESSENGER or FRAUD ? FIND OUT. DTB H P B explains in both I U and the S D that JAVAH (Jehovah) is really JAH (male -- the vertical line of the "cross") and HEVA (Eve -- female, the horizontal line of the "cross") These two are ever-conjoined. They correspond on this plane to ATMA-BUDDHI the eternal Monad on the Superior Plane of SPIRIT. The cross inscribed in a circle indicates the DIVINE is encased in a vehicle of matter at this cycle of its evolution. ------------------- Hi Dal, Do you have a reference for "They correspond on this plane to ATMA-BUDDHI"? Thanks, Peter From mhart@idirect.ca Fri May 02 06:01:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 13:01:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 79163 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 13:01:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 13:01:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 13:01:13 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-23.look.ca ([216.154.45.118] helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19BaA2-0005l4-00; Fri, 02 May 2003 09:01:11 -0400 Message-ID: <3EB26E4A.7E82FC6@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 09:10:34 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re karma and conventional medicine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=6.5 tests=none version=2.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Some of you might be interested in the following from Dr. Whittaker's Newsletter, and it occurred to me that, in his way, Dr. Whittaker might be offering some Theosophists, and others, some food for thought about the topic of group and individual karma (a karma that, apparently, kills many hundreds of thousands of people in the U.S. each year by way of conventional medicine). Oops! Seems that I'm not supposed to quote from that Newsletter without written permission from the publisher. It's the issue for May 2003 Vol. 12, No. 5. Phone 800 539 8219 or visit drwhittaker.com. Sorry. Speculatively, Mauri PS ^:-) From mhart@idirect.ca Fri May 02 06:41:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 13:41:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 7439 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 13:41:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 13:41:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 13:41:25 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-07-36.look.ca ([216.154.46.83] helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19Bamv-0005vm-00; Fri, 02 May 2003 09:41:22 -0400 Message-ID: <3EB277CE.B6D2A372@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 09:51:10 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re ..., Dallas, etc ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=6.5 tests=none version=2.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Dallas, when I wrote: <> that was meant in a contextual sense of: "why else do we have Yoga's, meditations, "just being," don't understand this. Dallas, you responded with: <> To me, "meditation/just being" is about transcending conventional (dualistic/multiplisitc, exoteric) notions about "concentrated thought." "Selected subject" re "just being" seems , as I tend to see it, kind of pointless, comparatively speaking. I'm hoping my quotes on "meditation/just being" were enough to suggest that some things can only be experienced (apparently). In my younger days I did a form of "concentrated thought" on a spot, with the result that the right side of my brain (I think it was the right side ...) felt as if it was churning, afterward. So I had to give up that kind of meditation. With "just being," though, I haven't had any such problems. Not that my sessions have been praticularly profound, but/"but" ... We all have to start somewhere, eh ... <> I suspect that you might be "truly puzzled" because you might be "truly immersed" in karma/maya. Presumably, at some point, your karma will allow you to have some kind of "aha" experience/s, so then you might start thinking that you might be (in a sense) less "truly puzzled"... Something like that? ^:-) Speculatively, Mauri From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri May 02 12:25:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 19:25:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 66188 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 19:25:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 19:25:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 19:25:04 -0000 Received: from pool1043.cvx16-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.54.23] helo=earthlink) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Bg9X-0002S0-00; Fri, 02 May 2003 12:25:03 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World re ..., Dallas, etc ... Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 12:26:47 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <3EB277CE.B6D2A372@idirect.ca> From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 May 2 2003 Dear Mauri: If you "concentrated" on a SPOT with no particular objective or thought to balance the effort, your brain will not have anything to focus on. This is a primary error in "trying to meditate." Why "jump in the dark?" How does any one secure some good "map ?" What do you already know of the mind and its powers? have you read PATANJALI YOGA-SUTRAS carefully, as a preliminary ? Outside the realm of matter -- say in thought -- you have to have an objective. YOU are the actuator. You employ the brain-mind to seek and grasp and understand a subject that YOU CHOOSE. If you don't do that you take it into an area of mental "nothingness." It gets confused and the eventual report you get revolves around that. Nothing useful is it ? If you seek "transcendence" I say: transcendence of what? Why ? Where do you hope to go mentally or with some desire for experience? Get those down clearly as a first. Otherwise it is all wishy-washy. Your suspicion that I may be totally immersed in Karma/Maya means what? Yes I am active and awake. I can review the passing scenes, in which I participate, or was merely a spectator. The one thing that emerges clearly is that: I AM THE ONE UNCHANGED, even if I recognize I exist in a sea of changes ( Maya) - If not, then I would not know the difference would I ? In this environment we share, I understand LAW and LAWS operate everywhere to keep my body and its brain alive; and, I do precious little about that. Physically the body handles it all. Mentally I am separate, and therefore think and desire. Usually desire motivates thought. But then I, the consistent EGO, monitors where desire and thought lead. I DECIDE what I will do -- so do you, so does everyone. What is gained? See if that helps Dal ==================== -----Original Message----- From: Mauri [mailto:mhart@idirect.ca] Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 6:51 AM To: Theosophy Study List; theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World re ..., Dallas, etc ... Dallas, when I wrote: <> that was meant in a contextual sense of: "why else do we have Yoga's, meditations, "just being," don't understand this. Dallas, you responded with: <> To me, "meditation/just being" is about transcending conventional (dualistic/multiplisitc, exoteric) notions about "concentrated thought." "Selected subject" re "just being" seems , as I tend to see it, kind of pointless, comparatively speaking. I'm hoping my quotes on "meditation/just being" were enough to suggest that some things can only be experienced (apparently). In my younger days I did a form of "concentrated thought" on a spot, with the result that the right side of my brain (I think it was the right side ...) felt as if it was churning, afterward. So I had to give up that kind of meditation. With "just being," though, I haven't had any such problems. Not that my sessions have been praticularly profound, but/"but" ... We all have to start somewhere, eh ... <> I suspect that you might be "truly puzzled" because you might be "truly immersed" in karma/maya. Presumably, at some point, your karma will allow you to have some kind of "aha" experience/s, so then you might start thinking that you might be (in a sense) less "truly puzzled"... Something like that? ^:-) Speculatively, Mauri Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From mhart@idirect.ca Fri May 02 14:10:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 21:10:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 28450 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 21:10:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 21:10:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO keymaster.look.ca) (207.136.80.9) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 21:10:02 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-06-32.look.ca ([216.154.46.32] helo=idirect.ca) by keymaster.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19Bhn5-0002wn-00; Fri, 02 May 2003 21:10:00 +0000 Message-ID: <3EB2E0F4.86E56F6B@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 17:19:48 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re ... and Dallas ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=6.5 tests=none version=2.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Dallas wrote: <> I don't see how anybody can transcend karma by exoterizing that "what," since that kind of "what" isn't a product of karma. Speculatively, Mauri From bill_meredith@earthlink.net Fri May 02 14:38:50 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bill_meredith@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 21:38:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 50443 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 21:38:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 21:38:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.218) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 21:38:49 -0000 Received: from user-38ld0j4.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.130.100] helo=Default) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19BiEx-00017P-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 May 2003 14:38:48 -0700 Message-ID: <003101c3110c$5dc86600$648256d1@Default> To: References: <3EB2E0F4.86E56F6B@idirect.ca> Subject: Re: Theos-World re ... and Dallas ... Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 17:38:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: aeda9581e82e22886a67a78112ff260e74bf435c0eb9d478488897eb567a76d99b209a26a4247eae36d1c262ed7399cc350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c From: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=131669976 X-Yahoo-Profile: bilmeredith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mauri" To: "Theosophy Study List" ; Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:19 PM Subject: Theos-World re ... and Dallas ... > Dallas wrote: < transcendence of what? Why ? Where do you hope to > go mentally or with some desire for experience? Get > those down clearly as a first.>> So long as one seeks to control the mechanism of transcendence and subjugate that which cannot be objectified within traditional space and matter concepts, one will inevitably ask (exoterize) such questions. > > I don't see how anybody can transcend karma by > exoterizing that "what," since that kind of "what" isn't > a product of karma. > Can we be intuitively aware of "what" remains when the chains of karma are nullified by transcendence? Or have I asked the question from the wrong side of transcendence? Bill > Speculatively, > Mauri > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri May 02 16:32:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 23:32:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 49764 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 23:32:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 23:32:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 23:32:46 -0000 Received: from pool0503.cvx30-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.141.248] helo=earthlink) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Bk1C-0002KP-00; Fri, 02 May 2003 16:32:42 -0700 To: "AA-BN--Study" Subject: RE: Theos-World re ... and Dallas ... Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:34:29 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <003101c3110c$5dc86600$648256d1@Default> From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Friday, May 02, 2003 Re "Consciousness" and "Transcendence" Dear Friends As I understand it, "Transcendence" does not mean going away in any new place, plane or set of conditions, but means an understanding, and a grasp of the conditions prevalent in f many places and conditions, as for instance: "dreams," "trance," "visions," altered states of consciousness." Apparently all we have to deal with at present are occasional memories, and those are imprecise. Perhaps Transcendence means and implies: "precision?" Knowledge, and also thee WISDOM to know what to do and how to handle. The CONSCIOUSNESS is always ONE. But apparently we are expected to learn how to handle the conditions that we are in while we are "awake" and able to make "independent choices." Our study would then revolve around: What and who am I ? What do I know about my environment? What are my personal tools? Body, feeling, mind, instinct, reasoning, logic, intuition, character, interests, desires, aversions, etc... Can we secure accurate interpretations of what these cover? How would they apply to us? To others? Are there any norms? What are my impediments? What are my enthusiasms, my "need to know?" What is my environment? What facts do I know, and what is unclear? Are there any accounts of previous inquiries? Can they be selected reviewed, codified? What part does history play? Sciences, arts, religions, philosophies.... Shall I limit my survey of knowledge? If so, how, where and why ? Do I have time to begin and to proceed some distance in this kind of work? If my life is short, can I somehow secure a "carry-over?" Best wishes, Dallas ======================== -----Original Message----- From: Bill M Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 5:39 PM Subject: Re:... and Dallas ... From: "Mauri Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:19 PM > Dallas wrote: < transcendence of what? Why ? Where do you hope to > go mentally or with some desire for experience? Get > those down clearly as a first.>> So long as one seeks to control the mechanism of transcendence and subjugate that which cannot be objectified within traditional space and matter concepts, one will inevitably ask (exoterize) such questions. > I don't see how anybody can transcend karma by > exoterizing that "what," since that kind of "what" isn't > a product of karma. ========================== Can we be intuitively aware of "what" remains when the chains of karma are nullified by transcendence? Or have I asked the question from the wrong side of transcendence? Bill From wry1111@earthlink.net Fri May 02 16:35:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 23:35:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 66792 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 23:35:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 23:35:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 23:35:22 -0000 Received: from user-38lc0l7.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.2.167] helo=idapingala) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19Bk3k-00069S-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 May 2003 16:35:21 -0700 Message-ID: <007701c31103$63244000$a70256d1@idapingala> To: References: Subject: Transcendence (Wry on Blavatsky. Part Twelve) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:34:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dallas TenBroeck" To: Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 12:26 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World re ..., Dallas, etc ... > May 2 2003 > snip> > Outside the realm of matter -- say in thought -- you have to have > an objective. Wry. First of all, thought IS matter. It is composed of material processes AND the result is material. Until you understand this, there is no hope. >YOU are the actuator. Wry: "You" is the personality, especially in "your" case. Get it clear. >You employ the brain-mind > to seek and grasp and understand a subject that YOU CHOOSE. Wry: Unfortunately, even sadly, this is an illusion. Like creates like. The mechanical personality recreates itself under many guises, including that of spirituality. Admiittedly, we need to start somewhere, so when the personality if interested, the best approach is to actively find a method to verify what is, in the beginning through the device of a deliberately contrived attempt to impartially verify physical reality by pure recording, so the incoming data is not impressed upon the previous configuration of the personality, but goes into a different kind of storehouse (in the brain), so to speak. Eventually, if a person acquires enough impartial data, something can begin to form out of this. It is a real man, in the inage of "God," so to speak, as what is impartial meets its own form here on Earth. It does not happen by itself or by a pipe dream, sorry to say, but by a specific kind of applied effort. If the effort is not right, everything is turned into air, but it is only emotional and is not in the shape of a man and therefore cannot be raised up, within the body, to transcend the flesh, so to speak. It all about making a ship. Maybe later, someone will remember these words and understand. >If > you don't do that you take it into an area of mental > "nothingness." Wry: Well I don't believe in focusing on any kind of point, even one between the eyes, but in the case of this, nothing is far better than something. > It gets confused and the eventual report you get > revolves around that. Nothing useful is it ? Wry: To my way of thinking, you are a person who is well meaning but really has no idea of what he is talking about. It is heartbreaking, but some people may be attracted to this if it is their karma. > > If you seek "transcendence" I say: transcendence of what? Why ? Wry: You don't really want to know, do you? These questions seem rhetorical. > Where do you hope to go mentally or with some desire for > experience? Get those down clearly as a first. Wry: Where do you? I know, as Madame Blavatsky said, if you BELIEVE (think) that you are immortal, you will be, and therefore you BELIEVE (think) this. Maybe it is even true, but what kind of immortal you will be (if one at all)? It is static. This is not what BEING alive means. Perhaps it is a form of the living dead. > > Otherwise it is all wishy-washy. Wry: Maybe or maybe not, but if so, a thousand times better then making imprints from the personality upon the personality, all the while dreaming it is evolutionary. All true evolution is transcendent, as a lower triad is assimilated into the next triad, by the process of refinement of coarse material by the excretion. Everyone on here should understand this. It is elementary. But the material of whatever does not exist on its own side. This is key. > > Your suspicion that I may be totally immersed in Karma/Maya means > what? > > Yes I am active and awake. > > I can review the passing scenes, in which I participate, or was > merely a spectator. The one thing that emerges clearly is that: > I AM THE ONE UNCHANGED, even if I recognize I exist in a sea of > changes ( Maya) - If not, then I would not know the difference > would I ? > > In this environment we share, I understand LAW and LAWS operate > everywhere to keep my body and its brain alive; and, I do > precious little about that. > > Physically the body handles it all. > > Mentally I am separate, and therefore think and desire. Wry: The above is what I have called "eternalism," plain and simple, and I question if the above approach is honest. When we say something about this kind of awareness, there is an identification, it seems true at that moment, but I doubt there is a continuity, or you would understand one of the first and most basic laws of the spiritual universe, that of transcendence, wherin a lower triad is assimilated into a higher triad,, forming a new triad. Plus the "I" you speak of is expansive. It is a dream. Real I is not like this. A person of true unity synthesises certain physical material in the body, and such a person would understand this and approach this subject differently. The thought (BELIEF) that one is immortal cannot be the base. It is a formatory concept. I do not believe you understand what you call "LAWS." > > Usually desire motivates thought. Wry: Yes it does. > But then I, the consistent > EGO, monitors where desire and thought lead. I DECIDE what I > will do -- so do you, so does everyone. What is gained? Wry: The above material, these last few lines, is heartbreaking, but I know you are well meaning and this, at least is good. > > See if that helps Wry: Your message has helped me to review and further clarify certain key material. Best wishes, Wry > > Dal > > ==================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mauri [mailto:mhart@idirect.ca] > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 6:51 AM > To: Theosophy Study List; theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World re ..., Dallas, etc ... > > Dallas, when I wrote: < meditations, "just being"?>> that was meant in a > contextual sense of: "why else do we have Yoga's, > meditations, "just being," > don't understand this. > > Dallas, you responded with: < concentrated thought on a selected subject. > Nothing else.>> > > To me, "meditation/just being" is about transcending > conventional (dualistic/multiplisitc, exoteric) notions > about "concentrated thought." "Selected subject" re > "just being" seems , as I tend to see it, kind of > pointless, comparatively speaking. I'm hoping my > quotes on "meditation/just being" were enough to > suggest that some things can only be experienced > (apparently). > > In my younger days I did a form of "concentrated > thought" on a spot, with the result that the right side of > my brain (I think it was the right side ...) felt as if it > was churning, afterward. So I had to give up that kind > of meditation. With "just being," though, I haven't > had any such problems. Not that my sessions have > been praticularly profound, but/"but" ... We all have > to start somewhere, eh ... > > < "EMPIRE STATE BUILDING" on the sands of the > shore, you have to have solid rock. To speculate is > fine. But your rock in that case is yourself -- the "I" > inside which you assume to be consistent and > permanent regardless of the states it is in, or observes, > or passes through. Am I right ? If everything is cloudy, > and insecure, variable and in constant flux, then how > can ideas or words (used to define experiences) be ever > useful -- they would change in meaning and value > every moment as the mind passes from subject to > subject, object, or from question, to speculation as to > event or its values. Are you content with bouncing > with the fleecy clouds of imagination or are you > seeking some base that an be defined? Some "starting > point," or, a "point of ultimate resolution -- or an > arrival ?" Personally floating around is unhelpful, it > costs time and energy but seems to have little or no > goal. How does it help you, me or any one, with living > -- at least in this world of three dimensions (4 if you > include "time") that appears common in general > experience and in logic that unites us.? So I am truly > puzzled. Dallas>> > > I suspect that you might be "truly puzzled" because > you might be "truly immersed" in karma/maya. > Presumably, at some point, your karma will allow you > to have some kind of "aha" experience/s, so then you > might start thinking that you might be (in a sense) less > "truly puzzled"... Something like that? ^:-) > > Speculatively, > Mauri > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From dennw3k@earthlink.net Fri May 02 16:45:16 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 2 May 2003 23:45:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 7539 invoked from network); 2 May 2003 23:45:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 May 2003 23:45:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 May 2003 23:45:15 -0000 Received: from pool0622.cvx29-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.136.112] helo=u7k5a4) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19BkDK-0005BK-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 May 2003 16:45:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c31105$2bf82fe0$7088b3d1@u7k5a4> To: References: Subject: Re: Change of Subject Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 16:26:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 Re: Software of interest to all PC Magazine, April 22, 2003 issue has an article about Spyware, and programs to get rid of it. On Page 92, it lists the Editor's Choice, [SpyBot Search & Destroy]. The price is right, it is a free download (donation requested). From PepiMK Software. http://spybot.safer-networking.de/ The file is spybotsd12.exe at 3.4 MB. PC Mag says you can also get it at www.pcmag.com It found about 8 spy programs on my computer that other programs had not found. Best Buy, Double Click, and a couple of Microsoft programs. I had gone to Double Click's website and filled an OPT OUT form last year, but it appears that they don't take that form seriously. I am running the Norton Internet Security, Lava Software's AD-AWARE, and now this one. I have been using Shareware since 1983, and so made a small "donation" . As I found out, THAT is a Big Mistake. If you don't have the program, get it and run it, but DON'T do the "donation" bit. I clicked on the donation button, and after making the donation, filled out the Registration forms that appeared. They asked for more information than I thought was necessary, but I figured PC Magazine had endorsed it, so that it was OK. They asked a lot of personal questions, and when I didn't fill out them all, they came back again and again. After I had all finished, and filled out all the questions that I would answer, and finished, I found out that I was now a registered Member of "PAYPAL", and now have a PayPal "account". Then I spent the next five full minutes denying and blocking cookies from all sorts of companies. NORTON INTENET SECURITY caught them trying to get in, and I had to have it block them one at a time, and I suspect that there were more than 100 that I suppose came from PayPal, for other products and services. I had no idea from the information that I got at the start of it that I was getting into something like that. I would not have made a donation if I thought that the SpyBot S&D would hand me off to a company like PayPal. The parent software company is in Germany, so you can't just send a check. Then they send me an acknowledgement via email of the whole thing. I had donated to "OmemO" - I am not sure whether it has anything to do with PepiMK Software or not. I also got email from PayPal welcoming me as an account holder, and welcoming me to send more money for my "account" to buy things from other vendors. So, get it and run it, but DON'T donate to it, because then you get a lot more than you bargained for . Dennis From mhart@idirect.ca Fri May 02 19:56:04 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 02:56:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 34674 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 02:56:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 02:56:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 02:56:02 -0000 Received: from [216.154.45.56] (helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19BnBv-0007lx-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 May 2003 02:55:59 +0000 Message-ID: <3EB33207.397BEB9A@idirect.ca> Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 23:05:43 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re "Change of Subject" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=6.5 tests=none version=2.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn <> Thanks, Dennis. From mhart@idirect.ca Fri May 02 21:07:33 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 04:07:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 62585 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 04:07:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 04:07:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 04:07:32 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-16.look.ca ([216.154.45.63] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19BoJ6-0003xI-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 May 2003 04:07:28 +0000 Message-ID: <3EB342CF.35AF48DF@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 00:17:19 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re "no hope" re Wry re Dallas ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=6.5 tests=none version=2.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Wry, I read your Fri post " Transcendence" with interest. I was going to ask you about which Wry wrote it (since I thought some of those earlier Wry posts seemed kind of curious, in a way, or curioser), but had second thoughts. After all, what kind of silly question is that to ask, eh?! I might as well ask which Mauri is writing this post, so I won't ask! After all, don't we all keep on evolving, or at least heading in some kind of direction, or something like that ... Not that I'll stop speculating about ... whatever, though. Wry wrote: <> If "understanding" (as "understanding," itself, might be somewhat generally "understood" or exoterized about on this plane) is "understood" as being karmic and materialistic, then seems to me that both "hope" and "no hope," as karmic/materialistic variations, might be "understood" in karmic/materialistic terms, so I would tend to prefer to use the word "intuit," instead (in place of "until you understand this"), maybe adding that there might be forms of intuition that might somewhat by-pass (in some sense ...) some of the usual in-your-face exoterics ... To me, Dallas's writings seem geared toward "more conventional" minds. Not that "less conventional" minds can't make use of those writings, in some ways, possibly ... But the use of "no hope," in that context, might be somewhat too drastic, in a way, maybe ... Not that I particularly want to make more karma, here, by commenting this way, but/"but"... Speculatively, Mauri PS ^:-) ... Not that ... From mhart@idirect.ca Fri May 02 21:37:40 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 04:37:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 58228 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 04:37:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 04:37:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 04:37:40 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-01-47.look.ca ([216.154.45.47] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19BomG-0001Ex-00; Sat, 03 May 2003 04:37:36 +0000 Message-ID: <3EB349DF.AEBCC604@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 00:47:27 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re transcendence, Bill ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=6.5 tests=none version=2.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Bill wrote: <> I'm still sort of "working" on the "aware," "intuitively" and "we." "What remains" of what? I suspect that if one can answer that question in exoteric terms, than the chains of karma might not have been broken too well, unless that "remainder" is offered "Knowingly" as the "exoteric version," maybe, as in the case of Blavatsky's Theosophy, say ... Speculatively, Mauri From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat May 03 00:55:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 07:55:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 2673 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 07:55:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 07:55:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 07:55:19 -0000 Received: from pool0341.cvx3-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.141.86] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19BrrT-0000A6-00; Sat, 03 May 2003 00:55:11 -0700 To: "AA-BN--Study" Subject: RE: Theos-World re ... and Dallas ... Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 00:56:56 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3EB2E0F4.86E56F6B@idirect.ca> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Friday, May 02, 2003 Re: Transcendence and Intuition. Dear Friends and M: I am not sure what is being asked. KARMA is simply the LAW OF EXISTENCE, of BEING. All is included in it. It is an aspect of the ABSOLUTE. So internal or external, esoteric or exoteric all is included in its operations. It (Karma) is totally inescapable, just as "SPACE" is inescapable. Or, LIFE, or "SPIRIT" and "MATTER" are inescapable. No "Being" can be erased. It (Karma) cannot be "transcended." Where is the place of NO KARMA ? Since we cannot speculate about the ABSOLUTENESS, a "Causeless Cause" is posited as a tentative "beginning" -- since it is difficult for us to visualize an eternity without beginning or end. (see SECRET DOCTRINE I pp. 15-19). Let me quote from the BHAGAVAD GITA which ought not to be taken as a theological treatise full of dogmas and paradoxes. It invites examination and close questioning and we have to look on Krishna as the ABSOLUTE (if it were able to speak). [In The SECRET DOCTRINE II 167, one finds the doctrine advanced of TWO EGOS in Man. I think this is worth considering because it gives a basis (The HIGHER SELF) for the innate sense of justice and law we all have. It also explains how Krishna the ONE SPIRIT can be also seated in our "hearts" as a kind of "Divine Tutor." And as an advisor he serves us as the "voice of Conscience" and also as the "intuition," -- and not an enforcer. By providing information about the TRUE, he leads the embodied mind (Arjuna, and we are all "Arjunas") to make better decisions if it decides to take advantage of a knowledge of universal law.] In the BHAGAVAD GITA (Chapter X) Krishna says, speaking as the SUPREME BEING (of which the Krishna form was an "avatar"), so as provide Arjuna with some understanding: "I established this whole Universe with a single portion of Myself, and remain separate." "I am the Ego which is seated in the heart of all beings; I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all existing things." "All this universe is pervaded by me in my invisible form; all things exist in me, but I do not exist in them...behold this my divine mystery: myself causing things to exist and supporting them all n]but dwelling not in them....Taking control of my own nature, I emanate again and again this whole assemblage of beings, without their will, by the power of the material essence." (Ch. 9) Best wishes, Dallas ===================================== -----Original Message----- From: Mauri Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:20 PM To: Subject: re ... and Dallas ... Dallas wrote: <> I don't see how anybody can transcend karma by exoterizing that "what," since that kind of "what" isn't a product of karma. Speculatively, Mauri From inquire@blavatskyarchives.com Sat May 03 08:08:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: inquire@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 15:08:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 59424 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 15:08:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 15:08:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 15:08:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.132] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2003 15:08:52 -0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 15:08:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Life & Work of H.P. Blavatsky Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 623 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=136783012 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell I am constantly receiving inquiries about what biographical works to read on Madame Blavatsky. I recommend the following two titles. A careful reading and close study of these works will give the reader a very good understanding of HPB's life and work. (1) "H.P.B.: Extraordinary Life & Influence of Helena Blavatsky" by Sylvia Cranston. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/ts/hpbbio.htm (2) "The Esoteric World of Madame Blavatsky" collected by Daniel H. Caldwell. http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/esotericworldam.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com From inquire@blavatskyarchives.com Sat May 03 08:21:49 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: inquire@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 15:21:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 50268 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 15:21:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 15:21:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 15:21:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2003 15:21:47 -0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 15:21:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Start a Class on Theosophy Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 273 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=136783012 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Start a class on Theosophy in your town or city. See the following webpage for a recommended list of books to use in the class: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/introductory.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com From inquire@blavatskyarchives.com Sat May 03 08:49:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: inquire@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 15:49:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 77369 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 15:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 15:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 15:48:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2003 15:48:59 -0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 15:48:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Madame H.P. Blavatsky & White Lotus Day May 8th, 2003 Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1821 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=136783012 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Almost 112 years ago, the Theosophist Julia Keightley had the following experience: "A few days after Madame Blavatsky died [on May 8th, 1891], H.P.B. awoke me at night. I raised myself, feeling no surprise, but only the sweet accustomed pleasure. She held my eyes with her leonine gaze. Then she grew thinner, taller, her shape became masculine; slowly then her features changed, until a man of height and rugged powers, stood before me, the last vestige of her features melting into his, until the leonine gaze, the progressed radiance of her glance alone remained. The man lifted his head and said: 'Bear witness!' He then walked from the room, laying his hand on the portrait of H.P.B. as he passed." Quoted from: "Reminiscences of H.P. Blavatsky and The Secret Doctrine," 1893, p. 127. With "White Lotus Day" [May 8th, 2003]only a few days away, readers (especialy newcomers and inquirers) may find the following material on Madame Blavatsky, the Masters and Theosophy helpful and instructive: "Helena Petrovna Blavatsky: A Sketch of Her Life and Work" http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/longseal.htm "Basic Ideas of Theosophy" http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/2scope.htm "H.P.B. Speaks" http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/hpbspeaks.htm "From Long-Sealed Ancient Fountains: The Origin of Modern Theosophy" http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/theosophy1.htm "Bear Witness!": Who Was the Real H.P.B.? http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/whitelotus2000.htm "Madame Blavatsky and the Latter-Day Messengers of the Masters" http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/contradictionslatermessengers.htm "A Casebook of Encounters with the Theosophical Mahatmas" http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/mastersencounterswith.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat May 03 13:04:41 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 20:04:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 80618 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 20:04:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 20:04:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 20:04:41 -0000 Received: from pool0438.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.13.183] helo=earthlink) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19C3FK-0004UP-00; Sat, 03 May 2003 13:04:35 -0700 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] question: the secret doctrine Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 13:06:20 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Saturday, May 03, 2003 Re: =93foot-rule=94 and Accuracy in answering/translating Dear Etzion: As you guessed the phrase =93foot-rules=94 is British, used in schools, and means a ruler that is only 12 inches long. Most students owned one as well as basic geometrical instrument sets, compass, quadrant, etc=85 I don=92t recommend or use any =93abridgment=94 of The SECRET DOCTRINE, for the reason that any one who does that kind of =93abridgment,=94 inevitably adds or subtracts their views and prejudices from such a work. However, if properly marked and cautioned, at the outset, so the reader cannot fail to notice, an =93abbreviation=94 may prove to be a stepping stone. I think studying the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) ought to be a preliminary to study of The SECRET DOCTRINE -- Even better, always read ISIS UNVEILED as a preface to The SECRET DOCTRINE -- then one gets a basis for understanding the origins of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY and what it was meant to do. The SECRET DOCTRINE brings together the essence of the Eternal Wisdom -- the =93Accumulated Wisdom of the Ages.=94 ( S D I 272-3 -- =93the Ancient Source=94) The same criticism can be applied to any one who writes (including myself), or, attempts to answer a question on Theosophical philosophy. They inject unwittingly a portion of their limited understanding. In my opinion it is far better to direct attention to some original statement, from book or article by H P B -- so that there is no question as to the source and the accuracy for any proposed answer. The questioner may have alternative sources on which he/she bases their question -- this can be brought out so the whole picture is developed and looked at together. Two heads are better than one, any time. We, who are all students at some degree of remoteness from H P B, ought to learn to =93conference=94 far more than we do. It will improve the accuracy of our comprehension and mutual esteem. But we can reduce the =93distance=94 from H P B by going direct to her writings whenever possible. Students could always be directed to the ORIGINAL EDITION. One can say this because after her death several editions of The SECRET DOCTRINE have been issued by groups of students who constituted themselves =93editors,=94 and who have changed, here and there, what she wrote, often without indicating their changes If one goes direct to the original, then they are put in DIRECT contact with H P B, and her own wisdom (and that of the Masters) as all three certified that they co-authored in writing the ook -- no interpreters and no intermediaries. Best wishes, Dal =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Etzion Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 6:24 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] question: the secret doctrine In the abridgement of the Secret Doctrine, page 111, 18th row from bottom: "So long as there are foot-rules within the resources of Kosmos, to apply to matter, so long will they be able to measure it three ways and no more; ..." What are *foot-rules*? I guess it is some British expression. Thanks, Etzion (Part one, Cosmic Evolution Stanza 7) Etzion Becker P.O. Box 7398 Jerusalem, 91073 ISRAEL www.3dsight.com/etzion/ --- You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-study-7384944T@lists.lyris.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From inquire@blavatskyarchives.com Sat May 03 14:23:25 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: inquire@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 21:23:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 54830 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 21:23:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 21:23:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 21:23:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.185] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2003 21:23:24 -0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 21:23:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Dallas TenBroeck on the ORIGINALS of Blavatsky's Writings Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 13679 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=136783012 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In his latest email to several Theosophical forums, Dallas TenBroeck (long time associate of the United Lodge of Theosophists and one of the officials of The Theosophy Company) advises: "Students could always be directed to the ORIGINAL EDITION. One can say this because after her death several editions of The SECRET DOCTRINE have been issued by groups of students who constituted themselves 'editors,' and who have changed, here and there, what she wrote, often without indicating their changes If one goes direct to the original, then they are put in DIRECT contact with H P B, and her own wisdom (and that of the Masters) as all three certified that they co-authored in writing the [b]ook -- no interpreters and no intermediaries. . . . " Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/11874 But does Dallas Tenbroeck's advice to students also INCLUDE editions of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE? Consider the following. Over the last several years on the Internet's public Theosophical forums, Dallas Tenbroeck has made numerous statements about "verbatim" or "accurate verbatim" reprints of H.P. Blavatsky's and W.Q. Judge's original writings. Here are just three examples from numerous statements made by Dallas on this subject: ------------------------------------------------- (1) "During the last years of his life, from 1912 to 1919 Crosbie edited the magazine THEOSOPHY. . . In those pages he reprinted most of the original articles and answers to questions which HPB and Judge has printed originally in THEOSOPHIST, LUCIFER, and PATH magazines. . . . Those articles have been made into books as accurate verbatim reprints of the originals, and are made available by ULT." ------------------------------------------------- (2) "Most of the articles of H.P.B. and Judge and other students had gone out of print. Verbatim reprints of these were then issued in the magazine THEOSOPHY." ------------------------------------------------- (3) ". . . THEOSOPHY CO. has done a verbatim reprint of the 1889 edition [of the Voice of the Silence]. There exists a facsimile edition - but I do not know who issued it . . . . -------------------------------------------------- At one point several years ago, I asked Dallas about his "preferences" and "recommendations" concerning originals, facsimiles of originals, verbatim reprints, edited reprints, etc. of Madame Blavatsky's writings. He wrote the following most important reply: ---------------------------------------------------- (4) "I prefer a facsimile edition - no question of authenticity. Comments and changes can be put in an ADDENDUM for students to consult. "Verbatim editions are acceptable, if truly and accurately VERBATIM - no changes or emendations or interpolations. Any such can be handled through an ADDENDUM." ---------------------------------------------------- Looking at the above statements (1), (2) and (3) from Dallas' pen, one might ponder on Dallas' definition of the word "verbatim". His statement (4) above gives his view on the meaning of "verbatim". A verbatim reprint would have NO changes NO emendations NO interpolations made to the original text. I give below from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary (online), some definitions of these key words used by Dallas: verbatim --- in the exact words : word for word to emend --- to correct usually by textual alterations emendation --- an alteration designed to correct or improve interpolate --- to alter or corrupt (as a text) by inserting new or foreign matter >From these definitions, one can plainly see that a verbatim edition would be "in the exact words" of HPB as found in the her original editions. No textual alterations would be found in a verbatim edition. No corrections would be made. No insertion of new words or matter would be in a "truly and accurately" reprint of HPB's works. When Dallas first gave the above definition in statement (4) I immediately thought of the "verbatim editions" of ISIS UNVEILED, KEY TO THEOSOPHY and VOICE OF THE SILEENCE currently published by Theosophical University Press of Pasadena, California. This publisher has RE-typeset the texts from the original editions of these works. TUP's INTENT has been to produce exact "word for word " reproductions of HPB's texts. Therefore, no changes were intentionally introduced into the text. No "corrections" were made in spelling of words, punctuation or alleged errors. However, some unintentional changes may have been introduced in this laborious process of typesetting. The above definition of "verbatim" as found in Dallas' statement (4) and as also found in the dictionary definitions are repeatedly confirmed by Dallas in many of his other postings over many years. I give below a good sample of these additional statements by Dallas. His comments corroborate the above statements concerning the meaning of "verbatim". -------------------------------------------------------------------- (5) "In the final editing of the SD HPB (1888) was assisted by a number of persons and it is quite possible that some erros [errors] in proof reading, etc... have crept in. But that does not give anyone the right to change what she put her signature to. If such errors are detected, then out of respect for her and the two Masters who gave their certificate of co-authorship to that work, I would say that no one ought to 'edit' those, without due warning at every change to readers, by suitable foot-notes -- yet we find that by 1893 a 'third and Reveised Edition of the SD was issued with over 40,000 alterations, UNMARKED, as compared to the original 1888 edition." ---------------------------------------------- (6) ". . . when people insert their 'corrections' unmarked into the original text they are taking a liberty with that original. If they do find some valuable changes that ought to be considered, a list in an ADDENDUM would be a far more suitable way of recording those and offering them for the consideration of succeeding waves of students and seekers." --------------------------------------------- (7) "Publish the original as ORIGINAL. "Put in an Appendix and therein list those changes that study an scholarship reveal to be necessary (?) alterations. Give the reason why and the source to be checked by the student for accuracy." ----------------------------------------------- (8) "All changes or scholarly findings ought to find place in an ADDENDUM to the original text, so that all can be reviewed by the student. "No one likes to find that someone else has interposed their thinking (however learned) between himself and the original. That is the height of presumption, in my esteem." -------------------------------------------------- (9) Concerning "all reprints" of HPB's writings, Dallas wrote: ". . . . LEAVE THE ORIGINAL TEXT UNCHANGED, but place 'Bullets' or some other markers in the margins, and in an ADDENDUM, page by page, add their comments and proposed changes. That would be fair to future students, and also raise their personal integrity higher - but what has happened, although irreversible, need not be perpetuated hereafter." ------------------------------------------------ (10) "I am satisfied that there are changes [in later editions] and whether they are good or bad, whether they amplify or detract, is not the problem, PROVIDING THEY ARE IDENTIFIED, so that trusting student can know whether that was what HPB wrote OR NOT." ---------------------------------------------- (11) "If you wish I can give you as an example the little book that the Adyar Theosophical Publishing House issued under H.P.Blavatsky's name as PRACTICAL OCCULTISM It is one of the articles she wrote. If you have a copy then compare it with the same article you have reprinted by the U.L.T. in OCCULTISM OR RAJA-YOGA. The U.L.T. is verbatim from H.P.Blavatsky's original article -- remember proof reading it myself years ago. The ADYAR version has been heavily edited. . . . "In U.L.T. I don't have to worry -- the originals are available on a reliable basis . . . . Personally I would rather deal with H.P.Blavatsky's 'mistakes' than with those created by others who have had the temerity to believe they knew better than she did, and had the audacity to introduce changes which she did not authorize. . . ." ------------------------------------------------- In light of some of the above statements and the STANDARD Dallas has enunciated innumerable times, I asked Dallas several years ago if he would please tell his readers what editions of HPB's works he preferred and recommended. To my question, he listed his preferences and recommendations including the following words about HPB's VOICE OF THE SILENCE: ". . . THEOSOPHY CO. has done a verbatim reprint of the 1889 edition [of the Voice of the Silence]. There exists a facsimile edition - but I do not know who issued it . . . ." Dallas' preference and recommendation of the edition of the VOICE published by the Theosophy Company completely puzzled and baffled me. I knew from my own research that numerous changes and emendations had been introduced into this Theosophy Company ed. of HPB's classic when compared with the original 1889 ed. How could Dallas call this TC edition "a verbatim reprint of the 1889 edition." especially in light of his many statements quoted earlier in this posting? When I publicly pointed out these observations, Dallas wrote back at one point: "I looked up in Webster's dictionary the meaning of 'Verbatim.' It says : 'word for word, in the same words.' . . . "I have in the past checked the T. Co. edition with the original 1889 VOICE, of which I have a copy autographed by HPB, (that I purchased in 1964 from John Watkins in London) and found it to be indeed 'word by word, in the same words.' " I replied at some point that Dallas was certainly in error about this TC edition being verbatim ["word by word, in the same words"] with the original. But in two later emails, Dallas admitted that certain kinds of changes had indeed been made. ". . . it is quite clear to me that the T. Co. edition of the text of the VOICE has changes in format, punctuation, numbering, footnotes, and even in the spelling of some of the "foreign" words (as diacritical marks were not used). No argument there." This seemed quite puzzling to me in light of his previous use of the term "verbatim". I was even more "dumbfounded" that Dallas was still recommending to new students and inquirers this Theosophy Company edition in which not only the changes, emendations, corrections and interpolations were to be found but in addition nothing in this TC edition indicated that changes had actually been made. No publisher's or editor's Note telling the reader that corrections, etc. had been made to HPB's original text was to found anywhere in the Theosophy Company edition. In other words, all these changes were UNMARKED to use a word Dallas likes to use. Had not Dallas written before in clear and unmistakable terms on this very point of UMARKED editing as well as to even more important ethical issues? Here are just a few excerpts from Dallas' pen already quoted earlier in this email relevant to the ethical dimension: "If such errors are detected [in HPB's original SECRET DOCTRINE], then OUT OF RESPECT for her and the two Masters who gave their certificate of co-authorship to that work, I would say that no one ought to 'edit' those, without due warning at every change to readers, by suitable foot-notes." Caps added. ". . . when people insert their 'corrections' unmarked into the original text they are TAKING A LIBERTY with that original." Caps added. "No one likes to find that someone else has interposed their thinking (however learned) between himself and the original. That is the HEIGHT OF PRESUMPTION, in my esteem." Caps added. Had not Dallas written that all such changes should be clearly MARKED especially putting them in an appendix separate from HPB's original text "so that trusting student can know whether that was what HPB wrote OR NOT"? In light of all of the above, why would Dallas still prefer and recommend this Theosophy Company edition? His reply to this question of why he would still be preferring and recommending this TC edition is in part as follows: "Why should I not recommend the T. Co. edition? Did you find any changes in meaning ? The difference in the PREFACE as to the spelling of 'Bhagavad Gita / Bhagavadgita' seem to me to fall under this. In any case that is not the TEXT of the VOICE." As soon as I read this and similar statements I knew that Dallas, for reasons best known to him, was now quibbling with me about the definition of "verbatim"!! No longer was he defining "verbatim" as he had formerly done, now Dallas was changing the focus and suggesting that we should not be concerned with whether actual alterations had been done to the TEXT , but instead we should be concerned with whether or or not the alteration had actually changed the MEANING!!In closing this section, I now wonder what Dallas really meant when he wrote: "Those articles [by Blavatsky and Judge] have been made into books as accurate verbatim reprints of the originals, and are made available by ULT." Does he mean by "verbatim" in this statement that no alterations to the text of these articles will be found in these compilations or does he mean that changes and corrections may have been made but none of the changes alter the meaning of the originals? Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com From wry1111@earthlink.net Sat May 03 15:17:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 22:17:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 3351 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 22:17:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 22:17:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 22:17:55 -0000 Received: from user-38lc0fi.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.1.242] helo=idapingala) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19C5KM-0001hx-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 May 2003 15:17:55 -0700 Message-ID: <002101c311c1$bbf8a220$f20156d1@idapingala> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Dallas TenBroeck on the ORIGINALS of Blavatsky's Writings Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 15:17:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Re the brief section of Daniel's message quoted below: I am not knowledgeable on the subject of different editions of Madame Blavatsky's writings, but I do have an important comment to make. Some people may not realize that one of the common devices used by spiritual writers, both ancient and modern, is to convey hidden information by page and verse numbering (and also by the use of dates, etc.) Sometimes this page, chapter and verse numbering is used in clever ways to refer to material concerning the structure of the universe and is given in the form of numerology, but often, this device is used, in combination with other devices, to cross reference to other material within the same text or even in other texts sometimes even texts written by other authors. There is no limit, except the boundaries of human imagination and ingenuity, to the clever variations that can be used to convey hidden information. This can go as far as deliberately misspelling words, giving contradictory information in such a way as to catch the eye of the vigilant, such as errors of grammar or even inconsistent punctuation (though I personally have never seen this last, it is a great idea, and someone, most likely more than one person, has certainly used this device already). Each person has his own style of conveying a certain kind and quality of information, and he will invariably tailor this common (among the ancients) practice in his own unique way, but if the person has never received knowledge in this way, if someone does not tell him of the existence of this kind of communication, he will never be able to learn, and, as with anything, picking up the ability to understand this takes practice. I have not yet had time to look over Madame Blavatsky's writings with a fine toothed comb, but when I do, I will, in some discreet manner, share what, if anything I discover, with those who are able to receive it. I have taken the time to write this message because I believe some uninformed people, who do not understand how various devices that can be used to convey certain information that is not for everyone , might construe Daniel's message to be a form of nitpicking, which it most emphatically is not. I have seen too many people destroy the nuance of key texts by altering them in ways that they erroneously perceive to be innocuous, and this is one of my pet peeves. Sincerely, Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 2:23 PM Subject: Theos-World Dallas TenBroeck on the ORIGINALS of Blavatsky's Writings snip > ". . . it is quite clear to me that the T. Co. edition of the text of > the VOICE has changes in format, punctuation, numbering, footnotes, > and even in the spelling of some of the "foreign" words (as > diacritical marks were not used). No argument there." > > This seemed quite puzzling to me in light of his previous use of the > term "verbatim". > > I was even more "dumbfounded" that Dallas was still recommending to > new students and inquirers this Theosophy Company edition in which > not only the changes, emendations, corrections and interpolations > were to be found but in addition nothing in this TC edition indicated > that changes had actually been made. No publisher's or editor's Note > telling the reader that corrections, etc. had been made to HPB's > original text was to found anywhere in the Theosophy Company > edition. In other words, all these changes were UNMARKED to use a > word Dallas likes to use. > > Had not Dallas written before in clear and unmistakable terms on this > very point of UMARKED editing as well as to even more important > ethical issues? snip > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://blavatskyarchives.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From inquire@blavatskyarchives.com Sat May 03 15:31:10 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: inquire@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 22:31:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 77430 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 22:31:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 22:31:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.75) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 22:31:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2003 22:31:07 -0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 22:31:07 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Minor" (?) Editing of HPB's original VOICE OF THE SILENCE?? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3361 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=136783012 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Wes recently wrote on Theos-Talk: ". . . when Judge reprinted 'The Voice of the Silence' in New York in 1893, he did some minor editing and rearranged the footnotes to appear on the text pages instead of at the back of the book. So, when The Theosophy Company went to re-publish the Voice, there were two editions to choose from: Blavatsky's and Judge's. Which one should we have published? HPB's 'original' text, or Judge's edition which was a bit easier to use? The Theosophy Company editors apparently decided to use Judge's, relying on his known skill as an editor. . . . " Compare the above admission by Wes with Dallas' previous statement that: ". . .the U L T insists on using and providing for study, only the ORIGINALS -- I see too many interpretive changes in Theosophical texts altered by those who have later claimed that they can correct errors made in those 'originals.' Who dares to say that they can do better than H P B and the Masters . . . ?" When Dallas observes "I see too many interpretive changes in Theosophical texts altered by those who have later claimed that they can correct errors made in those 'originals,'" would he ALSO include Mr. Judge in the phrase "by those who have later claimed that they can correct..."? Below may be a good example of Judge's "minor" (?) editing: In at least two emails posted to Theos-Talk in March-April 2000, Peter Merriott questioned the need for Mr. Judge to make a change in HPB's ORIGINAL concerning the phrase "thin oblong squares". Peter wrote in part: "HPB writes: "The original PRECEPTS are engraved on thin oblong squares" (Original edition, page vii, caps added where italics put in original) "Unfortunately, in my view, the wording of this has been altered in the ULT edition wherein the word "squares" has been removed thus rendering the passage: "The original Precepts are engraved on thin oblongs.." (ULT edition) "In the Collected Writings of HPB we find an article by her wherein we discover that she has used the term OBLONG SQUARES before. So it is somewhat puzzling why this phrase should have been altered (presumably corrected?) in the ULT edition. . . . ." "The words OBLONG SQUARE are italicised in the above article which suggests HPB wished to draw our attention to its special significance. . . . ." ". . . . Clearly then, this is no mistake, no idle phrase or term that HPB is using in the VOICE. So again, one might ask why change it in the VOICE OF THE SILENCE, why remove the word "squares" to leave the phrase "thin oblongs"? For to do so is to delete something very important in the text, or so it seems to me. . . ." ". . . .Do we perhaps get a sense that this term OBLONG SQUARE is an important one, and should have remained untouched as HPB wrote it in her original VOICE OF THE SILENCE? . . . " I close this posting with the following question. Does Dallas' remarks: "I see too many interpretive changes in Theosophical texts altered by those who have later claimed that they can correct errors made in those 'originals.' Who dares to say that they can do better than H P B and the Masters . . . ?" ALSO EQUALLY APPLY to Mr. Judge's above "interpretive change" to HPB's ORIGINAL edition of THE VOICE? Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com From inquire@blavatskyarchives.com Sat May 03 15:50:32 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: inquire@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 22:50:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 1751 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 22:50:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 22:50:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 22:50:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.154] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2003 22:50:29 -0000 Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 22:50:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: An Issue of Fairness and Consistency Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002101c311c1$bbf8a220$f20156d1@idapingala> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6434 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=136783012 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Wry, you wrote in part: "I have taken the time to write this message because I believe some uninformed people, who do not understand how various devices that can be used to convey certain information that is not for everyone , might construe Daniel's message to be a form of nitpicking, which it most emphatically is not." Wry, thanks for your comments. From my perspective it is not a matter of "nitpicking" but an issue of fairness and consistency. Below I post something on the issue of fairness & consistency that I wrote on Theos-Talk almost two years ago. ------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: "In U.L.T. I don't have t[o] worry -- the originals are available on a reliable basis. . . ." ?????????????? Dallas writes in part: [My comments follow his comments.] ---------------------------------------------------- "If you wish I can give you as an example the little book that the Adyar Theosophical Publishing House issued under H.P.Blavatsky's name as PRACTICAL OCCULTISM It is one of the articles she wrote. If you have a copy then compare it with the same article you have reprinted by the U.L.T. in OCCULTISM OR RAJA-YOGA. The U.L.T. is verbatim from H.P.Blavatsky's original article -- remember proof reading it myself years ago. The ADYAR version has been heavily edited. Then into that soup a creedal article by a Brahmin originally printed in Vol. 10 of THEOSOPHIST is introduced ( not H.P.Blavatsky at all) -- I made a comparison and have a full description of the discrepancies. I sent this to the Theosophical Publishing House in Adyar and the H O of the Indian Section THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in Benares -- but they never acknowledged it nor did then change their printing." "Another discrepancy list with over 43,000 changes is the reprint in 1893 of The SECRET DOCTRINE (Vols. I and II) by the Theosophical Publishing House in London after the original plates were worn and no longer usable. This is easily checked. "Vol. III of The SECRET DOCTRINE as edited by A. Besant is a hodge podge of unedited MSS that H.P.Blavatsky had in her drawers at the time of her death -- it was material intended to go into LUCIFER, even some MSS held over from THEOSOPHIST. "No, I am not making a case for the continuation of any special Body. I am indicating the differences. In U.L.T. I don't have t[o] worry -- the originals are available on a reliable basis yet=s, I have in many cases proof read and verified them with the ORIGINALS. -- and I have done the same thing with the 15 (or so) volumes of BLAVATSKY: COLLECTED WORKS. . . . "I do not know whether you have the edited or unedited versions which came out more recently. If you compare your copies with H.P.Blavatsky's originals you will soon know if they have been changed. In some cases the changes may be trivial, but in other cases as I read, the changes make the original MEANING UNCLEAR. "Personally I would rather deal with H.P.Blavatsky's "mistakes" than with those created by others who have had the temerity to believe they knew better than she did, and had the audacity to introduce changes which she did not authorize. Strong language, but true if it is applicable." ----------------------------------- DANIEL COMMENTS AS FOLLOWS: Dallas, I am totally dumbfounded that you would bring up the above items without ALSO commenting on MODERN PANARION (a collection of HPB's articles) reprinted by the Theosophy Company and the edition of HPB's VOICE OF THE SILENCE also published by the Theosophy Company. Concerning HPB's article PRACTICAL OCCULTISM, Dallas, you write: "The U.L.T. is verbatim from H.P.Blavatsky's original article -- remember proof reading it myself years ago. The ADYAR version has been heavily edited." Have you compared HPB's articles in MODERN PANARION with H.P. Blavatsky's original articles? Dallas, are the articles in MODERN PANARION verbatim with HPB's original articles? In fact as you should know since I posted comparisons about a year or so ago on several theosophical forums, the ULT/THEOSOPHY CO.'s reprint of MODERN PANARION has been HEAVILY EDITED. And what about the Theosophy Company's version of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE? You know that this version has more than 500 changes trivial or otherwise. Do you consider this edition verbatim with the original 1889 edition of the VOICE? Before you answer that please define what you mean by "verbatim". You write concerning the PRACTICAL OCCULTISM article: "The U.L.T. [edition] is verbatim from H.P.Blavatsky's original article -- remember proof reading it myself years ago. The ADYAR version has been heavily edited." What do you mean here when you use the word "verbatim"? What do you mean by writing that the ADYAR version is not verbatim. Keeping in mind your use of the word "verbatim" above, compare the Theosophical University Press edition of the VOICE with the ULT's version of the VOICE. TUP's edition is verbatim. Can it truly be stated that the ULT's version of the VOICE is ALSO verbatim? Furthermore, the 500 + changes in the ULT's VOICE are UNMARKED CHANGES. In recently published statements of yours, you say you are against editions of HPB's works that are edited and the CHANGES are UNMARKED. Yet for reasons unknown to me, you prefer to use and quote from the ULT's edition of the VOICE with more than 500 + changes that are UNMARKED. Dallas, you are willing to criticize Adyar for their edition of PRACTICAL OCCULTISM and even willing to write to them listing the changes and then commenting: "but they never acknowledged it nor did then change their printing." I'm curious Dallas, have you protested to the Theosophy Company about the numerous changes in MODERN PANARION and the ULT's edition of the VOICE? Did you send them a list of the changes? Are you asking THE THEOSOPHY COMPANY in their next printing of these two titles to remove their changes (which HPB did NOT approve) and publish facsimiles of HPB's original VOICE and of her original articles? So Dallas, is your statement: "In U.L.T. I don't have t[o] worry -- the originals are available on a reliable basis. . . ." REALLY TRUE??????????? Dallas, why do you continue to criticize the Adyar editions of HPB's writings while using the above two mentioned publications by the Theosophy Company? Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com From mhart@idirect.ca Sat May 03 16:26:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 3 May 2003 23:26:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 69756 invoked from network); 3 May 2003 23:26:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 May 2003 23:26:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gozer.look.ca) (207.136.80.10) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 May 2003 23:26:32 -0000 Received: from [216.154.45.192] (helo=idirect.ca) by gozer.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19C6Oi-00077j-00; Sat, 03 May 2003 23:26:29 +0000 Message-ID: <3EB4526F.B62189B9@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 19:36:15 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Dallas re karma, "ABSOLUTE," etc ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=6.5 tests=HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE version=2.53 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.53 (1.174.2.15-2003-03-30-exp) From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Dallas wrote: <> I'm tempted to say "I know," but, being a speculator, in a sense, well ... Anyway, things might be worse. Not being sure of something, in a sense, is how I got to be a speculator, myself, so your "not sure," Dallas, tends to pique my interest, tending to make me feel (unlike Wry, apparantly ...?) that there might be "hope" for you, yet, Dallas, in a way, to use Wry's "hope" terminology (in reverse of Wry's "no hope"), if I may ... It's when people are "sure" of themselves that I start getting a little worried, in a way (not that I particularly expect you to "understand" what I mean by that "more specifically," but/"but"... ) ... ^:-) ... Anyway, at least you, Dallas, seem to be making much more "sense" to people, in your way, unlike me, in my way, eh? After all ... Even though ... Oh, well, it's all karma, so ... Not that ... <> As I tend to see it, "karma" is an exoteric version/explanation or karmic explanation ("explanation" evolving out of karmic effects) re the dualistic/multiplistic reality/life of this plane, and so, as such, it can be collectively (and thereby individually, or vice versa, in a sense ...) modelized as ... whatever, but/"but"... Apparently I'm unable to explain my perspective much better, with or without the use of more quotes, additional qualifiers, etc. But your choice of words, Dallas, re "it is an aspect of the ABSOLUTE" makes me wonder, since that statement would see to suggest (?) that "ABSOLUTE" (whatever might be meant by that "more specifically" ...) is somehow another aspect or version of karmic effects. I've been under the impression that "Absolute" is beyond karmic effects, and something that might be transcended to, or toward, (in some sense ...), after karma is transcended. Speculatively, Mauri From bartl@sprynet.com Sat May 03 18:55:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 4 May 2003 01:55:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 61448 invoked from network); 4 May 2003 01:55:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2003 01:55:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2003 01:55:54 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-092-118.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.92.118] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 19C8jJ-00075y-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 May 2003 18:55:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3EB47333.3020404@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 21:56:03 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Start a Class on Theosophy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 One of the books, HPB TEACHES, selected articles on two bases: by chronology (where Michael Gomes tried to get articles evenly spread throughout her career), and relevance to modern times. One could do a lot worse than have a series of talks based on the articles in that book. By the way, Daniel; could you send that message along to theoslodges@yahoo.com? I think it would be appreciated there. Bart Daniel H. Caldwell wrote: > Start a class on Theosophy in your town or city. See the following > webpage for a recommended list of books to use in the class: > > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/introductory.htm From zach.888@virgin.net Sat May 03 20:52:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: zach.888@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 4 May 2003 03:52:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 41169 invoked from network); 4 May 2003 03:51:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2003 03:51:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta3-svc.business.ntl.com) (62.253.164.43) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2003 03:51:59 -0000 Received: from zach ([80.1.22.34]) by mta3-svc.business.ntl.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20030504035157.OQJK23713.mta3-svc.business.ntl.com@zach> for ; Sun, 4 May 2003 04:51:57 +0100 Message-ID: <00bc01c311f0$f458f640$ee0f0150@888> To: Subject: Re: Who helped Blavatsky? Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 04:55:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "Zach" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=108162994 X-Yahoo-Profile: cosmicfire_uk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, is there any consenus from the Theosophical community as to which Master, or group of Masters helped Blavatsky write the Secret Doctrine. A link to an old message or an article somewhere would be very helpful if there is one. thanks for any advice or help Zach [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From inquire@blavatskyarchives.com Sat May 03 21:13:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: inquire@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 4 May 2003 04:13:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 90275 invoked from network); 4 May 2003 04:13:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 May 2003 04:13:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 May 2003 04:13:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2003 04:13:53 -0000 Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 04:13:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Who helped Blavatsky? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <00bc01c311f0$f458f640$ee0f0150@888> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 7709 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 69.9.20.19 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=136783012 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Hi, Zach, you wrote: =20 > is there any consenus from the Theosophical community as to=20 > which Master, or group of Masters helped Blavatsky write the=20 > Secret Doctrine. A link to an old message or an article somewhere > would be very helpful if there is one.=20 Here are two quotes from some primary sources: In a January 6, 1886 letter, Madame Blavatsky, writing to Henry=20 Olcott, informed him : ". . . Countess [Wachtmeister is] here, and she sees I have almost no=20 books. Master and Kashmiri [are] dictating in turn [portions of the=20 Secret Doctrine manuscript]. . . ."=20 (Quoted in Boris de Zirkoff's Rebirth Of The Occult Tradition, 1977, p. 23.)=20 Also during this same month (January, 1886), Dr. William Hubbe- Schleiden received a note from the Master M., which reads in part: ". . .the `Secret Doctrine' is dictated to Upasika [H.P.B.] partly by myself & partly by my Brother K.H."=20 (Quoted in Boris de Zirkoff's Rebirth Of The Occult Tradition, 1977, p. 16.)=20 Collating information from these two letters, H.P.B.'s reference=20 to "Master" is to "M." (Morya) and her reference to "Kashmiri" is=20 to "K.H." (Koot Hoomi). See the portraits of these 2 Masters at: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/mastersportraits.htm Also see narrative BELOW about Countess Wachtmeister and the Master=20 Morya. Hope this helps! Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY STUDY CENTER/BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com -------------------------------------------------------- Countess Constance Wachtmeister, Oct.=96Dec. 1885, Wurzburg, Germany=20 =20 In the autumn of 1885, I was making preparations to leave my home in=20 Sweden to spend the winter with some friends in Italy, and=20 incidentally, en route to pay Madame Gebhard a promised visit at her=20 residence in Elberfeld [Germany]. It was while I was engaged in putting my affairs in order, in view of=20 my long absence, that an incident occurred, not indeed singular in my=20 experience, but out of the normal. I was arranging and laying aside=20 the articles I intended to take with me to Italy when I heard a voice=20 saying, "Take that book, it will be useful to you on your journey." I=20 may as well say at once that I have the faculties of clairvoyance and=20 clairaudience rather strongly developed. I turned my eyes on a=20 manuscript volume I had placed among the heap of things to be locked=20 away until my return. Certainly it seemed a singular inappropriate=20 vade mecum for a holiday, being a collection of notes on the Tarot=20 and passages in the Kabbalah that had been compiled for me by a=20 friend. However, I decided to take it with me, and laid the book in=20 the bottom of one of my traveling trunks. At last the day came for me to leave Sweden, in October 1885, and I=20 arrived at Elberfeld, where I met with a cordial and affectionate=20 greeting from Madame Gebhard. However, the time was drawing near for=20 me to pass on into Italy. My friends never ceased pressing me to join=20 them there, and at last the date of my departure was fixed. When I told Madame Gebhard that I must leave her in a few days, she=20 spoke to me of a letter she had received from HPB . . . she was ill=20 in body and depressed in mind. Her sole companions were her servant=20 and an Indian gentleman. "Go to her," said Madame Gebhard, "she needs=20 sympathy, and you can cheer her up." I thought the matter over. Madame Gebhard was genuinely pleased when=20 I made known my decision to her and showed her a letter I had written=20 to "the old lady" in Wurzburg suggesting that if she cared to receive=20 me I would spend a few weeks with her. The letter was dispatched, and=20 we waited eagerly for the reply. When at last it lay upon the=20 breakfast table, there was much excitement in regard to its contents,=20 but anticipation soon turned into consternation on Madame Gebhard's=20 part and disappointment on mine, when we found nothing more nor less=20 than a polite refusal. Madame Blavatsky was sorry, but she had no=20 room for me; besides, she was so occupied in writing her Secret=20 Doctrine that she had no time to entertain visitors, but hoped we=20 might meet on my return from Italy. After the first natural=20 disappointment, I set my eyes hopefully southward. My luggage was soon ready, and a cab was actually waiting for me at=20 the door when a telegram was put into my hands containing these=20 words, "Come to Wurzburg at once, wanted immediately=97Blavatsky." It may easily be imagined that this message took me by surprise.=20 There was no resisting and instead of taking my ticket to Rome I took=20 one to Wurzburg. It was evening when I reached Madame Blavatsky's lodgings, and as I mounted the stairs my pulse was a little hurried while I speculated=20 upon the reception which awaited me. Madame Blavatsky's welcome was a warm one, and after the first few=20 words of greeting, she remarked, "I have to apologize to you for=20 behaving so strangely. I will tell you the truth, which is, that I=20 did not want you. I have only one bedroom here, and I thought that=20 you might be a fine lady and not care to share it with me. My ways=20 are probably not your ways. If you came to me I knew that you would=20 have to put up with many things that might seem to you intolerable=20 discomforts. That is why I decided to decline your offer, and I wrote=20 to you in that sense; but after my letter was posted Master spoke to=20 me and said that I was to tell you to come. I never disobey a word=20 from Master, and I telegraphed at once. Since then I have been trying=20 to make the bedroom more habitable. I have bought a large screen=20 which will divide the room, so that you can have one side and I, the=20 other, and I hope you will not be too uncomfortable." I replied that whatever the surroundings to which I had been=20 accustomed might have been, I would willingly relinquish them all for=20 the pleasure of her companionship. I remember very well that it was then, on going into the dining room=20 together to take some tea, that she said to me abruptly, as of=20 something that had been dwelling on her mind. "Master says you have a book for me of which I am much in need." "No, indeed," I replied, "I have no books with me." "Think again," she said, "Master says you were told in Sweden to=20 bring a book on the Tarot and the Kabbalah." Then I recollected the circumstances that I have related before. From=20 the time I had placed the volume in the bottom of my box it had been=20 out of my sight and out of my mind. Now, when I hurried to the=20 bedroom, unlocked the trunk, and dived to the bottom, I found it in=20 the same corner I had left it when packing in Sweden, undisturbed=20 from that moment to this. But this was not all. When I returned to=20 the dining room with it in my hand, Madame Blavatsky made a gesture=20 and cried, "Stay, do not open it yet. Now turn to page ten and on the=20 sixth line you will find the words . . . ." And she quoted a passage. I opened the book which, let it be remembered, was no printed volume=20 of which there might be a copy in HPB's possession, but a manuscript album in which had been written notes and excerpts by a=20 friend of mine for my own use; yet, on the page and at the line she=20 had indicated, I found the very words she had uttered. When I handed her the book I ventured to ask her why she wanted it. "Oh," she replied, "for The Secret Doctrine. That is my new work that=20 I am so busily engaged in writing. Master is collecting material for=20 me. He knew you had the book and told you to bring it that it might=20 be at hand for reference." Quoted from: Wachtmeister, Countess Constance, and others. Reminiscences of H. P.=20 Blavatsky and the Secret Doctrine. London, Theosophical Publishing=20 Society, 1893; 2d ed. Wheaton, IL: Theosophical Publishing House, 1976 From listmail@theosophist.org Sat May 03 22:41:54 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: listmail@theosophist.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_6); 4 May 2003 05:41:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 50993 invoked from network); 4 May 2003 05:41:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP;