From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Apr 01 04:09:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 1 Apr 2003 12:09:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 26510 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2003 12:09:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Apr 2003 12:09:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Apr 2003 12:09:55 -0000 Received: from pool0127.cvx16-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.50.127] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 190KaK-0001LV-00; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 04:09:49 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] in these times Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 16:09:58 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tuesday, April 01, 2003 Dear Jesse: I think in the light of Theosophy we have to look on the unrolling of events as an opportunity to see Karma developing -- both individual and national. Cataclysms, such as wars, floods, earthquakes, etc bring the philosophy to a focus for such effort. Is this Universe and world ONE ? Is there a set of universal and intransgressible laws that rule everything? If so, where do we and humanity stand ? Have we been missing something? Everything, and event, near or far, is a kind of test -- and we are students watching, seeking to learn more, and meanwhile, testing the information we receive in and through our lives and those of others to find out if Theosophy describes the parameters of existence on a living stage. Does it supply links that our ordinary education has not made plain to us ? We also are examining ourselves to see if the description of our natures as seven-fold beings may be true. Are we choosers? Do the actions and words we initiate eventually return to us as circumstances (good or bad) in life ? It is a splendid opportunity for self-development if we are able to detach ourselves from our own inclinations and prejudices and be impartial. But that is not easy. In this we can make ourselves participants in the pleasures and woes of individuals and the =93world.=94 But even this capacity will not be satisfactory unless we are able to make some application personally to ourselves and our way of living. Will it? The operative agent for the true SELF within, the MONAD (Atma-Buddhi) is Manas -- the Mind. Specifically, it is Buddhi-Manas -- the wise-mind. It looks on our embodied mind (Kama-Manas -- the mind enveloped in desires) as its =93son.=94 This is ourselves as Kama-manasic entities -- desire-minds. It is involved in the=94 here and now=94 of our lives, and mixed with our desires. We can set those aside and for an instant we can consider an ideal situation. Paint an image of what that would be if we were to take certain steps. Do we want idealism? Do we want everyone to share in wisdom equally? Are we certain? Are we able? Are we sure of the principles involved ? Our =93species=94 is that of a physical body highly adapted and refined, living in an environment which given a chance, would stimulate the virtues to be understood logically, and then adopted as a common way of life. Unfortunately for most of us, we have been cut off at an early age from a clear view of virtue in operation. We don=92t even know how many virtues there are or whether they are valid. =93Virtues=94 are called =93paramitas=94 in Hindu philosophy --you will find them enumerated in the VOICE OF THE SILENCE at the beginning of the 3rd =93fragment.=94 If you have a copy of THE LIGHT OF ASIA (on the Buddha) by Sir Edwin Arnold, you will find the enumerated again (read Book Sixth).Book the Eighth gives still more detail. It is valuable to know these. It seems to me that we need to discover those, analyse them and become familiar with their effects if applied. Only our Higher Mind ( Buddhi-Manas) can do that if we ( the Kama-Manas -- embodied mind) allows it. Two books make this clearer for me: the VOICE OF THE SILENCE and PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS . I hope you have them. Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Jesse B Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 3:18 PM To: Subject: [bn-study] in these times These are indeed truly turbulent times in the world. It is clear that humanity is being shaped though how exactly is not fully disclosed. In the eyes of the Creator I can only imagine what the whole of our species and the changes taking place within Us actually look like. The only solace, I feel, is found in the faith that the world is continually being shaped for the good. I try to take refuge daily in this belief, though from inside the storm, it often seems bleak. I have held as conviction for some time now that the only way to be of any service to the world is first to open oneself to the larger sentiments of It. This is to say that I have maintained the beleief that unless one can feel the pain of the world, they cannot hope to be a part of it's joy. These times are full of pain and uncertainty and we all approach the current global events from our own levels of perception and knowledge.! For some, these are times of patriotism and nationalism, for others, these are times of contempt for the domineering regimes of certain countries, be them the US, Iraq... I figure my question is, to what ends is our species being reshaped in this time... how do others see the current events and to what ends do others think that these events will a/effect the course of our civilization and our species? Will this too pass, or are we nearing an event horizon that will lead to another paradigm shift in our world? Are these exciting times or dismal times? I guess this is my question. Regards, Jesse _____ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* --- You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-study-7384944T@lists.lyris.net [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Apr 01 19:10:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 2 Apr 2003 03:10:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 78682 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2003 03:10:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2003 03:10:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2003 03:10:51 -0000 Received: from pool0404.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.223.149] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 190YeD-0002b7-00; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 19:10:45 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: US protests Part III Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 07:11:05 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Tuesday, April 01, 2003 Re Tolerance and Brotherhood Dear Peter and Friends: May I break in here for a moment? You write, quoting H P B from The SECRET DOCTRINE : "One has to acquire true Self-Consciousness in order to understand Samvriti, or the 'origin of delusion.'" Paramartha is the synonym of the Sanskrit term Svasam-vedana, or "the reflection which analyses itself." (SD 1, Page 44) To help us I found that in one of the books H P B wrote, are ideas that may serve as ideal starting points, and certainly a tone which we may, from time to time, refer to individually, regardless of the external jostling push and shove of opinions, political, national, or of any kind. We need not "follow the crowd," nor do we need to be hypocrites -- saying in superficial agreement that which in our heart we abhor. Early in the KEY to THEOSOPHY, H. P. Blavatsky writes to establish some basis in the mind of the reader of what Theosophy stands for. In part, she states: Theosophy is Godlike Wisdom, the word "Theosophy" was found used by Pythagoras. It is divine knowledge or science, such as that possessed by the "Gods." Its first object is to inculcate certain great moral truths upon its disciples." Other objects are: to reconcile all religions under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities. And by demonstrating their identical origin, to establish one universal creed based on ethics. Additionally it aims to reinstate and restore to its primitive integrity the wisdom of the ancients. The WISDOM RELIGION (Theosophy) was ever one, and being the last word of possible human thought, was therefore carefully preserved It will survive every other religion and philosophy. Ancient theosophists claimed that the divine essence could be communicated to the higher Spiritual Self in a state of ecstasy. The latter (also named "samadhi") is practised by its devotees. It is an incessant endeavour to purify and elevate the mind. It is: 'the ardent turning of the soul, towards the divine;" not to ask for any particular good, but for the universal Supreme Good for ALL. It states that those ethics are the soul of the wisdom Religion, and were the common property of the initiates of all nations. But Buddha was the first to embody those in his public teachings. It is the ethics that have always been the most insisted upon. All that is now called "Theosophical doctrines," because they form part of the knowledge of the initiates. These doctrines belong exclusively to no religion, and are confined to no society or time. They are the birthright of every human soul. Those who have imagined Theosophy to be a new religion have hunted in vain for its creed and ritual. Its creed is Loyalty to Truth, and its ritual "To honor every truth by use." The THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY was organized on this one principle, the essential Brotherhood of Man. We hold to no religion, as to no philosophy in particular: we cull the good we find in each. The T S was established as a philanthropic and scientific body for the propagation of the ideas of brotherhood on a practical instead of theoretical lines. The T S cannot make a Theosophist of one who has no sense for the divine fitness of things. "Theosophist is, who Theosophy does." How is this to be accomplished by those individuals who determine to adopt this as their policy of living? It is a difficult undertaking as the foremost rule is the entire renunciation of one's personality. He has to become a thorough altruist, never to think of himself, and to forget his own vanity and pride in the thought of the good of his fellow creatures, to live a life of abstinence in everything, of self-denial and strict morality, doing his duty by all men. If one asks what advantages are received from such a program, the answer is given: : deriving much strength from mutual aid and sympathy. Union is strength and harmony, and well-regulated simultaneous efforts produce wonders. This has been the secret of all associations and communities since mankind existed. Its aims and true goal are several, primarily the relief of human suffering, moral as well as physical. Theosophy has to inculcate ethics; it has to purify the soul, if it would relieve the physical body. An Occultist practices scientific Theosophy, based on a accurate knowledge of Nature's secret workings. The divine spark in man being one and identical in its essence with the Universal Spirit, our "spiritual Self" is practically omniscient, but it cannot manifest its knowledge owing to the impediments of matter. The more these impediments are removed, the physical body paralyzed, as to its own independent activity and consciousness, the more fully can the Inner Self manifest on this plane. Our beliefs are all founded on that immortal individuality. Spirit is potential matter, and matter is simply crystallized Spirit, yet the original and eternal condition of all is not Spirit, but META-SPIRIT (visible and solid matter being simply its periodical manifestations) we maintain that the term Spirit can only be applied to the True Individuality. Selfishness is essentially conservative and hates being disturbed. The power of mental inertia is great in anything that does not promise immediate benefit and reward. Our age is predominately unspiritual, and matter of fact. Some Theosophical doctrines contradict flatly many of the human vagaries cherished by sectarians -- vagaries and errors which have eaten into the core, the very heart of popular beliefs. The result is that an entirely unselfish code appeals to a very limited class -- thus producing slow, up-hill results. It is essentially the philosophy of those who suffer, and have lost all hope of being helped out of the mire of life by any other means. To me it is important that the philosophy and the logic of Nature be exposed and referred to, rather than any opinion, mine or another's. Opinions fluctuate with times and events. Facts (if spiritual -- as in verities -- are common property) are stable. In a sentence: We are born this life into a condition, a nation, a community, which enables us under karma (which we created for ourselves by past choosing) to receive and make the best learning change for our own advance. Additionally, with knowledge that is true, impersonal and universal, our choices can be molded to assist all we are connected to. In this we will be true brothers and helpful as a quiet example to all. We cannot omit the immortality of the spirit-Soul as the essential Man, nor Karma as the Law that harmonizes all. Our present incarnation has nothing to do with the conditions and social impositions of the past, though the moral and ethical situation today is the direct outcome of those past choices we made. The present then, represents to us the area in which we need to learn. The pressures we feel in moments of crisis, such as we are involved in nationally, politically and internationally, indicate to us areas where our learning is essential to our spiritual growth. How is the "Family of Man" doing? How are we reacting to its problems? Can we ameliorate and pacify? To "defend" usually means we are at fault - morally. Are we humble enough to look, and to pause, and to seek the panorama of ideals we all have, and to learn from them? To 'understand' another means to be able to mentally step into their "shoes," to empathize with their feeling and thought processes, and perceive the source of their opinions. Then, weighing ours and theirs (opinions), impartially, we can refer them to an ideal -- a moral norm. From that we can derive at least for ourselves what we ought to do, what our minds ought to adopt to stay equipoised, and fair and merciful. I hope this is of help, Best wishes, Dallas ========================================== Sources: KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) pp. 1, 2, 3, 6-8, 10, 14-5, 18, 20-1, 24, 27, 29, 33, 37. =================================================== -----Original Message----- From: peter.m Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 12:50 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] Re: US protests Part III Adelasie wrote: > To me this seems so wise, and so important. If we just try to > imagine, why does he or she do that, or what could be the reason for > this or that behavior, with an open mind, we will find outselves > understanding a lot. After all, we are all capable of anything we can > imagine. The Native Americans say, "Don't judge a man until you walk > a mile in his moccasins." Good advice too. Hello Adelasie, I wonder if another important lesson we need to learn at present is to understand 'how do other people, cultures and/or nations see us, and why?'. I feel we tend to believe that our perceptions and judgements of right and wrong are just matters of fact and therefore those who oppose the views we express or the actions we take based on those perceptions & judgements must simply be awkward, wrong, unpatriotic, not intelligent enough, hate us, or simply evil. It may well be that some of these responses are just that, but there may be a lot more too it. It may also be of great value to wonder 'why is it we believe we are doing right, doing good, being spiritual, just trying to help, & so on yet so many of our friends, neigbours and acquaintances view us as being and doing the very opposite of what we intend?' So, perhaps our reflections need to include understanding the 'other' and how the 'other' is understanding us, acknowledging what part our actions and attitudes have in shaping those perceptions. "One has to acquire true Self-Consciousness in order to understand Samvriti, or the 'origin of delusion.'" Paramartha is the synonym of the Sanskrit term Svasam-vedana, or "the reflection which analyses itself." (SD 1, Page 44) regards, Peter From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Apr 01 19:11:05 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 2 Apr 2003 03:11:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 10943 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2003 03:11:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2003 03:11:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2003 03:11:04 -0000 Received: from pool0404.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.223.149] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 190YeO-0002b7-00; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 19:10:57 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] the list will continue Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 07:11:20 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Wednesday, April 02, 2003 Excellent. Let BLAVATSKY.NET-STUDY roll on. Thanks Reed. Dal ============== -----Original Message----- From: Reed Carson [mailto:reed3@tellworld.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 6:13 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] the list will continue Friends, That was extraordinary support for the continuance of this list. Of course it cannot be ignored and this list must continue. I have read carefully each letter and appreciate each one. Some explanation. Approximately half of the participants on this list are from the US - if it follows the pattern of the membership list. From time to time in the history of this list I have stepped forward to strongly defend a person that has, in my opinion, been wrongly characterized. In this case it was half the list. There was so much more to say but I did not have time to say it. But the problem was worse than that. Let me start from the small and work up. I asked what I would do if I were only exploring Theosophy and I had just signed onto this list and then discovered such intemperate hostility. The answer is easy. I would sign off and think less of Theosophy. In the book store that Estela and I have opened in our new town, we have placed a set of cards for BN on the Theosophy bookcase. One day we looked and all the cards were gone! People had not been buying the deep books but had been taking the cards. Most of those people who signed up from that source would be likely to unsubscribe. The same would hold for anonymous subscribers around the world. We were in fact detectably losing subscribers. In sum, we were injuring our own cause. That I cannot be a part of. This is not meant in any way as a criticism of Larry. He was trying to be fair in a difficult situation. We owe him our gratitude. Certainly, though your outpouring of support for this list requires that it continue. Now it will be moderated by my wife, Estela Carson. What should we do next? Should we discuss the war? I know there is much more that should be said and others probably feel the same. But I can't do it. Larry has pointed out that we are quite attached to the natural views of our nation and politics. Indeed we are. I don't think we can do it. Perhaps we can discuss some more detached and philosophical aspects of this war. Peter has effectively expressed thoughts on how our philosophy determines our politics. Certainly true and a worthwhile subject. I am uncertain about this one and in doubt that we can do it. Every one would know that this or that philosophic point supports some "side" in the real world and would chafe or agree accordingly. If a "line" were drawn to define what was or was not acceptable, then the natural inclination would include pushing that line as far as it could be pushed. It is not a pleasant thought to be moderating such a situation. And our past discussion seems to me to indicate against a wholly unmoderated discussion. Certainly we are caught up in strong emotions - each supporting our view. Once I blurted out something very strongly worded - and in a louder than usual voice - at a Theosophical meeting. As the strangeness of my outburst dawned upon those present, the leader said, "If you didn't care about it, it wouldn't be worth fighting for." The strength of our emotions is understandable. We can look at it this way. The internet provides wonderful access to widely varying views. Personally I think that freedom of information is a great boon for the world. There are many other places we can express and exchange our political views. There aren't too many other places to discuss the teachings of Theosophy. Perhaps we should be focusing on what we have in common. I would like to ask the list - what do you think we should be discussing? Should we be trying for some higher aspect of war related issues and do our best? Can we discuss that with a view to Theosophy and in a way that respects others on this list? Should we discuss something that is more specifically Theosophical? I would like to hear from the list. Many people have offered to help in any way they could. This is genuinely touching. There is now a simple answer. One of the good things about the recent discussion is that many people spoke up. Speaking up is one of the best ways to help a list. It really adds substance. Estela will begin moderating today. In the beginning, in particular as we regain our footing, she may moderate a little tightly, always being concerned to be fair and concerned for the welfare of the list. To help the list, please help her. Guess I have said enough. I would like to hear from you on where we go next. Reed From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Apr 02 05:29:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 2 Apr 2003 13:29:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 56976 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2003 13:29:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2003 13:29:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2003 13:29:58 -0000 Received: from pool0054.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.54] helo=earthlink) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 190iIv-0007A2-00; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 05:29:26 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: creation of animals ? Karmic Law rules always Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 17:29:44 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Wednesday, April 02, 2003 Re: creation of animals ? Dear Friends: As far as I have learned from Theosophy, there is a great distinction between the SPIRIT or the SOUL that animates a being (be it an atom, a molecule, a cell, a large group of cells as in a constructed 'body,' a human being, an earth, or a galaxy, or a number of galaxies extending to the infinitudes of what we think we know of SPACE) and its many cooperating and interactive forms. Note well that what we call hard matter (forms) are discovered to be in essence very dense electro-magnetic fields of enormous strength -- but essentially they are SPACE as the distances (at their level) between the components of even "physical atoms" is huge . So "Matter" is really a special kind of specially condensed SPACE. [ The February 2003 (I believe) issue of NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE illustrates in theory the possible formation of a Universe out of the initial chaotic matter made available (called the BIG BANG) for this purpose when, as The SECRET DOCTRINE teaches, the "Great Being" awakes again from its own 'nightly sleep' of Pralaya. ( See Vol. I SECRET DOCTRINE ) Is "spirit" less or more than "SPACE" ? Is SPACE not filled with Monads or Spirit/Matter entities eternally conjoined ? Are we, as intelligence and consciousness, not one of those Monads ? Do we not cooperate with others, and do we not expect Nature to cooperate and support us in life? How are we due such consideration? It is the difference between the degree of wisdom that a "central intelligence" (the Universal Spirit, or its assistants) has, {and knows how to execute (fairly and justly) for the benefit of all components it is responsible for} and the forms that it uses. But whatever may be the case or the need, the Law of Karma is not, and cannot be violated. It is immutable. Let us ask ourselves: what may be the most fundamental and basic law of life in the Universe? To me it seems to be: The one fundamental Law of our Universe is cooperation. It is UNITY. It is BROTHERHOOD. The action of KARMA as the universal Law is to rehabilitate, to educate, to let the creator of evil feel the evil when unleashed upon himself, and thus learn to ask: "Why am I afflicted? How is it possible for this to happen to me? is a primary concept we need to mentally review to see if it is valid. Is it the "missing link" in our education? Why do we persist in trying to do evil (when we know it is so) and hope to evade a just response? How can we witness or hear of the maiming and torture of thousands and not sense their pain? Where did we develop those moral calluses? How have we succeeded in becoming deaf to the inner voice -- the VOICE OF CONSCIENCE? Can it be reasoned away? If not, then what is it? The motive for any "made" thing, depends on the selfishness or the universality of the purpose of the "creator" or "inventor." It is the "good or bad" factor that is of primary importance. No one who "creates" -- a writer, perhaps, or an actor on the stage -- can escape the results of what is described to others. But then, each has to investigate these things for themselves, and arrive at sensible answers for themselves. The rules of logic are common to all -- as is also WISDOM -- which we share. We are told that the laws of Nature are alike for the "good" and the "evil" doer. The motive alone forces Karma to act, and Nature to eventually react on the source (the creator or inventor). And this depends entirely on whether the new thing is of benefit to man, or a means for torture, deprivation or death -- those are things which we ought by now, as a species, to have firmly under our consideration. It is a matter of Earth-wide consideration of universal ecology. We ought to be able to ask ourselves if we would personally torture or kill those 'faceless' men, women and children that are 'different." For those of us who eat meat: Would we go out into the slaughter houses and then into the meat packing plants and kill and prepare the meat for ourselves -- with any degree of pleasure or indifference ? The arbitrary political and national barriers, and divisions designed and imposed by men's agreements and treaties are no longer valid -- disease like air, or the rain clouds, pass everywhere -- and there are many kinds of disease -- the most potent being those thoughts and feeling, which invisible, stultify and dull the conscience of mankind -- as for instance, the consequences of the "mighty" forcing their way upon the weak. Is this not reprehensible at any point, and to any degree. On a one to one basis, lets ask ourselves: Who loves bullies? Who admires a strong man beating into insensibility (or death) a weaker one? Shall we call such an event cowardice? Who dispenses death and destruction, violence and torture, from a position of personal invulnerability? Is that a kind of cowardice? When these forces are in use, are we to admire them? These are the real foundational points to be considered and discussed. Again, these matters are to be answered, each one to themselves. The Lower self -- Kama-Manas, is accountable to BUDDHI the Wise SELF in each of us. We have to discover what our "Lower-Self" really is like. Then see if we really "like" it. Would we permit a person with that kind of "Lower-Self" to have charge of us? History hints that Paracelsus was able to created "servants" called "HOMUNCULI" -- but exactly what they were is not clear -- a kind of intelligent, but soulless, 'servant.' A reference to the INDEX to ISIS UNVEILED [ I - 135, 465, 485, ] gives some information on this. [see also S D II 120, 349, 376, H P B Articles II, pp. 262, 337 (U L T Edn.). Also in the S D we are told that Sages at a certain stage of wisdom are able to create the kind of physical forms into which they can incarnate to deal with things on this plane of matter that we call ours. A reference to this (the undying race) may be found in the INDEX to The SECRET DOCTRINE [ see S D I 207; S D II 275fn, 376, 531, 652-3 ] Certainly this kind of "creation is not to be done with mechanisms and tools derived from our kind of materials ( Look at the difficulties the biological labs have with "cloning. ) The "creation" would be handled by control of the astral matter needed and under Karmic laws. The 'mad-scientists" (read "Black Magicians") of historied Atlantis abused a knowledge they had of astral manipulation and created it is reputed a kind of semi-conscious servant type. (It sounds somewhat like the remote controlled "drones" now used in aerial warfare.) We now have the capability of extending our senses to such a device, via "radio waves" of certain frequencies, to receive and respond to what is seen by the 'servant' device. And then to cause it to respond. The "form" may in no way resemble a human form in such cases. See if this may be of use, Best wishes, Dallas ============== -----Original Message----- From: arturo c Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 5:10 PM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] Re: After Creation ? I just wonder how many 'animals' have been created by man, as I understand it was never the 'divine plan', the animal kingdom. in Atlantis, the mad scientist created flesh forms, animal, forcing the nature elementals into physical bodies..anima=animation. any comments? Arturo From wry1111@earthlink.net Wed Apr 02 10:24:57 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 2 Apr 2003 18:24:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 68766 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2003 18:24:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2003 18:24:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.54) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2003 18:24:52 -0000 Received: from user-38lc13l.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.4.117] helo=idapingala) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 190muo-0002JX-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 10:24:51 -0800 Message-ID: <006d01c2f944$e3ef5340$750456d1@idapingala> To: References: <9b.366a2777.2bb912c9@aol.com> <000c01c2f810$3506d2c0$8bd8f7a5@idapingala> Subject: Re: Theos-World Wry on Blavatsky. Part Ten Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:22:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi> Here is further comment. See below. ----- Original Message ----- From: "wry" To: Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Wry on Blavatsky. Part Ten > Hi. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 7:40 PM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Wry on Blavatsky. Part Ten > > > > > >> Karma -- responsibility. > > >> Reincarnation and immortality of the Ego -- the time needed to learn > > >> everything. > > >> Unity -- in all three essentials of being: Spirit, Mind and Matter. > > >> And, their cooperation. > > >> A Goal for existence -- becoming WISE. > > >> Immortality -- for the thinking, living, inquiring SELF. > > >> Space -- infinity in which we all have a place and a purpose of being > > >> Brotherhood and tolerance, cooperation and generosity -- virtues as > > >> opposed to the selfishness and horror of vice and isolation. WRY: In truth, the above material, which I understand is well meant, gives me sorrow. (I know Dallas meant well and had good motivation when he wrote it, but this is not enough. I guess the part about balancing spirit, mind and matter, though there are some serious technical problems with the supposed meaning of these terms and whether it is possible for a human being, in his present condition of unawareness, to balance anything, is worthy of enquiry., as one would want to strive to balance different aspects and this subtly implies a kind of balancing of the functions, which is of prime importance, in any kind of spiritual development. The rest of this passage, the broad generalizations, the platitudes, the jumping to conclusions, and especially the filling in of sacred space with a kind of rhetorical fluff is highly problematic, but maybe there is something I do not understand. As far as the co-operation of spirit, mind and matter goes, aside from a the perhaps implied meaning of balancing the functions, it, these words are essentially meaningless. Assuming anyone even knows what Dallas is talking about and how to do this, and that he himself even knows, or that Judge even knew, it is not possible for ordinary man to balance different aspects of himself by this model, as he does not know himself, nor has he the will to do this kind of balancing. On the level of an ordinary man's daily existence, which involves functioning in flickers of consciousness, what is called "spirit" does not manifest. Ordinary man, no matter how many theosophy books or whatever else he has read, functions in the realm of the living dead, where intellectual-emotional complex of the mechanical "thinker" is continuously being triggered into reactive processes. This is the ongoing, daily condition of the functioning of most, if not all, of us, evidenced not only by the behavior of people on this list and other theosophy lists, but everywhere. The study of oneself pretending to be this or that can be very interesting. Of course when I act AS IF I am someone and my friends go along with it, this reinforces my fantasy and allows me to experiment. This is what little children do and it is an important stage of development, but it is not the same as mature adults interacting in and affecting the world. I personally consider myself to be as much of an authority on this subject as the next person, as I, too, have done my share of pretending. No matter what you say about "mind" and " matter", no matter how good it feels to say this, it still does not translate into the functioning of any kind of "spirit" on this plane to the extent that there is anything to balance. In order for there to be a functioning of "mind" in relationship to what is called "matter" to the extent that a spirit body of a human being is manifested, there would already need to be a certain kind of balancing of the ordinary functioning, (thought, feeling, motor etc.), which there is NOT, and also, "mind" would need to function as a unit in relationship to the moving body as an object that is "willed" in this or that direction. Furthermore, everything which is or can be known to man is of a material quality. Therefore it would be better to speak of material as having different DENSITIES and to study the various combinations of these densities and how they interrelate. The beginning of achieving any kind of balance at the same time as purifying ones karmic stains is to approach the perceptual field without interpreting it. This could be called the practice of meditation (which is not the same as a living meditation, but at least a beginning). Since I cannot spend my day sitting in a chair meditating, I need to find a way to bring this practice into my daily activities and relationships as I am moving around. Remember, movement is the key to everything, as I need to apply all knowledge and understanding to myself as a moving object in order to affect a conscious doing. Maybe it is futile to attempt to explain these simple ideas to you and others on this list and to enquire into these subjects with you and others on here, but if you would like theosophy to be a more effective force in leading to the establishment of a universal brotherhood, I suggest you or someone attempt to open yourselves to enquiry. I am not approaching this subject as any kind of authority and am here to learn, but I cannot ignore hard core material which I have painstakingly verified time and time again, and it is my duty not to struggle not only to perfect my own reason to an objective grade, but to help others to do the same. Thank you for at least making an effort to communicate with me. Sincerely, Wry. > > > > > > > > >WRY: In one ear and out the other, as you do not know how to construct > > >with material. > > > > Are you deaf? What has "constructing with material" to do with becoming > > "wise" or having "virtues" and overcoming the "selfishness of vice and > > isolation"? Doesn't the "cooperation of spirit-mind and matter" include > > material substance? Where are you coming from? Is the material world, as > it > > relates to you personally, your only interest? It seems to me that working > > with your mental and spiritual nature is far more important than (or is > the > > first step toward) "constructing with the material." Or, shouldn't they > all > > be considered together? Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? > > > > WRY: I am going to be going into this in more detail, but your question is > so interesting that I would like to put out something for whoever is > interested to think about over night. EVERYTHING about being wise is about > knowing how to construct with material, as presenting material that another > human being can assimilate it into his functioning in a way that is balanced > is an act of love, which is always original and creative. To begin, it is > important to engage the attention and then present something to do in such a > way that the person discovers it for himself. If anyone has ever done this > for you, you will know what I am speaking of. This man is your true brother. > Every learning situation must be alive and uniquely constructed according to > the conditions and circumstances that actually exist, not those that one > would like to exist or fantasies to exist. In order to do this, the lover > needs to be able to see what is. The person who cannot see himself cannot > see anything, as he will be using what comes in from the outside world, > reflecting his own manifestations, as a filter. This means he will filter > out the details that show him information about himself he cannot see. IF I > see this happening, with someone, though I am not necessarily saying this is > the case with anyone in particular, I have to tell him, but since I cannot > tell him, I will need to show him. This is done by setting up the opposite > of what he is doing and exaggerating the details. In order to respond, a > void needs to be filled, the hole that is created by the excess of > exaggeration. When this is filled in, there is learning, not by being told, > but by having experienced. One could say this is dishonest, but we must bear > in mind that in the original manifestation of whomever, a box was "created" > for ME, and I may have to make this hole to get out of it. I am not the only > one on here who has done this. Bill has done it for me. When he did I was > glad. Maybe you are doing it, too. > > Material is the key to everything. There are many esoteric symbols for > material. One of them is fruit, but you would have to investigate this > deeply to see the profound significance. Of course the cooperation of > spirit, mind-mind and matter" includes material, as everything is material, > but it is important to hone in on specifics as then a new meaning may > appear. Examine my material carefully, as there will always be something in > there for he who seeks treasure. Without discrimination it is pointless to > be whole, if this is even possible, as without the development of > discrimination, one will only know how to speak in vague abstracts.which > will never strike a certain inner chord. Remember, that to tune an > instrument is never hit or miss, but very specific. I can think it is tuned > or say it is tuned, but unless it is actually finely tuned, the music will > not affect me in my deepest inner recess.. Something to think about over > night. Gotta go now. Wry > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Apr 02 13:21:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 2 Apr 2003 21:21:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 6019 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2003 21:21:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2003 21:21:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2003 21:21:22 -0000 Received: from pool0665.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.234.155] helo=earthlink) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 190pfc-0002Jd-00; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 13:21:20 -0800 To: Subject: RE: peace, Nirvana and RENUNCIATION Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 01:21:35 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20030402172506.51631.qmail@web40108.mail.yahoo.com> From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Mar 2 2003 Dear Friends: Re. PEACE, Nirvana and RENUNCIATION I find that Theosophy teaches: Each one chooses a "path" personal to themselves, and the way that opens results from our freedom to do so. This freedom stems from the fact that we (and every other being) bathes in the ONE SPIRIT -- which is everywhere. All of us find ourselves in place, at various self-chosen stages, in an great "pilgrimage" toward PERFECTION -- the "pure state." The range of such stages is vast as it starts with the Monads that have just emerged from the "Monadic Essence" to THOSE who have taken on the responsibility of "helping Nature and working on with Her." "Let not thy "Heaven Born," merged I the sea of Maya, break from the Universal Parent (SOUL), but let the fiery power retire into the inmost chamber, the chamber of the Heart, and the abode of the World's Mother. [S D I 540-1] Then from the heart that Power shall rise into the sixth, the middle region, the place between thine eyes, when it becomes the breath of the ONE-SOUL, the voice which filleth all, thy Master's voice." VOICE OF THE SILENCE, p. 10 [see S D II p. 303] We have, at core, a "ray" of this ONE UNIVERSAL SPIRIT, and it can never be destroyed, or taken away from us, even by thousands of "deaths" endured by the dissolution of the physical forms we use, incarnation after incarnation. It is the REINCARNATING SOUL -- BUDDHI-MANAS -- the 'vehicle of ATMA. Under the Karma of its own and of Nature around it, it calls back to duty and to support, those scattered "life atoms" - our skandhas. Thus a cooperative evolution persists and proceeds with minute exactitude as to detail, and also taking into account the greater trends of the life waves. What happens to the "forms?" They too, are individually: "Monads." But like we, when we were in earlier aeons "Monads of lesser experience," they too fill those positions, as our disciples even if we do not recognize this. Our decisions impact them and enhance or deform them depending on the moral motives we choose to use. They are the immortal vehicles of our Karma. Like living tools they carry away and then return to bring us the impress we gave them. If we have distorted or blunted them, they now provide us with those same characteristics -- so that we may change and restore to them their purity -- thus also restoring to ourselves our integrity and allowing us to proceed. In regard to "peace" -- There is a wonderful pledge attributed in the "Beginning" and made by the "Mother of Mercy," the "Female Logos," Kwan Yin, that runs as follows: NEVER WILL I SEEK NOR RECEIVE PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL SALVATION. NEVER WILL I ENTER INTO FINAL PEACE ALONE. BUT FOREVER AND EVERYWHERE WILL I LIVE AND STRIVE FOR THE REDEMPTION OF EVERY CREATURE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. This is the vow of the RENUNCIATOR who is asked [ see end of VOICE OF THE SILENCE --p. 78 ] "Now bend thy head and listen well, O Bodhisattva--Compassion speaks and sayeth: "Can there be bliss when all that lives must suffer? Shalt thou be saved and hear the whole world cry?" Now thou hast heard that which was said. Thou shalt attain the seventh step and cross the gate of final knowledge, but only to wed woe if thou would'st be Tathagata, follow in thy predecessor's steps, remain unselfish till the endless end. Thou are enlightened--choose thy way." VOICE OF THE SILENCE, p. 78 If one turns back a few pages (to 75) we find: "But stay Disciple...Yet one word. Canst thou destroy divine COMPASSION ? Compassion is no attribute. It is the Law of LAWS--eternal Harmony, Alaya's SELF; a shoreless universal essence, the light of everlasting right, and fitness of all things, the law of Love eternal. The more thou dost become at one with it, thy being melted in its Being, the more thy Soul unites with that which Is, the more thou wilt become COMPASSION ABSOLUTE. Such is the Arya Path, Path of the Buddhas of perfection." VOICE OF THE SILENCE, p. 75-6 Further back the VOICE OF THE SILENCE has warned us of the thorns that line the Path of RENUNCIATION (p. 45-6 -- THE TWO PATHS). "The PATH is one, disciple, yet in the end, two-fold. Marked are its stages by four and seven Portals. At one end--bliss immediate, and at the other--bliss deferred. Both are of merit the reward: the choice is thine. The One becomes the two, the Open and the Secret. The first one leadeth to the goal, the second, to Self-Immolation. When to the Permanent is sacrificed the Mutable, the prize is thine; the drop returneth when it came. The Open PATH leads to the changeless change--Nirvana, the glorious state of Absoluteness, the Bliss past human thought. Thus the first Path is--LIBERATION. But Path the second is--RENUNCIATION, and therefore called the "Path of Woe." That Secret Path leads the Arhan to mental woe unspeakable; woe for the living Dead (*), and helpless pity for the men of karmic sorrow, the fruit of Karma Sages dare not still. ------------------------ (*) Men ignorant of the Esoteric truths and Wisdom, are called the "living Dead." ============================ ...The "Secret Way" leads also to Paranirvanic bliss--but at the close of Kalpas without number; Nirvanas gained and lost from boundless pity and compassion for the world of deluded mortals. But it is said: "The last shall be the greatest." Samyak Sambuddha, the teacher of Perfection, gave up his SELF for the salvation of the World, by stopping at the threshold of Nirvana--the pure state." VOICE OF THE SILENCE, pp. 44-46 [see also S D I, pp 207 -210 -- on the GREAT SACRIFICE -- the Para-Guru. ] I hope this may be of use Best wishes, Dallas ================== -----Original Message----- From: Kath Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 9:25 AM To: Subject: re: peace ========================== Hello, ...but I wonder if it is really legitimate to retire into an inner peace while such an atrocity is present in the world. I wonder if I should focus on my own inner peace, when peace has been taken from so many. I wonder if my silence lends support to the murder and maiming of innocent men, women, and children, as well as the thousands of animals that have died needlessly. I wonder if I should sit by and send out peaceful thoughts while * * * are destroying a culture and creating a holocaust in our name. I wonder if it would not be selfish for me to turn my head and experience an inner bliss while children are crying for their dead parents, and parents are crying for their dead children. I wonder if it is proper to use my religion as an escape from being responsible for the suffering that is going on, or if it is my religious duty to speak against an illegal and immoral war waged ... in my name. Kath CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Apr 03 04:08:26 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 3 Apr 2003 12:08:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 48994 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2003 12:08:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Apr 2003 12:08:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.46) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2003 12:08:24 -0000 Received: from pool0008.cvx3-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.140.8] helo=earthlink) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1913W0-0005pp-00; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 04:08:21 -0800 To: "AA-BN--Study" Subject: RE: On Good and Evil Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 04:08:22 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Thursday, April 03, 2003 Dear M. >From studying Theosophy one might say: Good and evil are contrasts, like black and white, or colors, their difference is noticeable by one who is DETACHED from them and the effects they may project. Yet ultimately in time they can be resolved into a unity by harmony and mutual cooperation. In a way, by analogy, there is the SPIRITUAL SOUL ( ATMA-BUDDHI) in each of us which is "detached" from the EFFECTS OF KARMA. It has already been through this "fire" of Karmic effects and has learned the value of harmony. It understands, teaches when asked, yet stands apart from us who are trying to get out of the vibration of pain and sorrow and attain the homogeneity of peace and tranquility. The VOICE OF THE SILENCE covers this very well in the 2nd section: the Two Paths. Yet from another point of view, it the SPIRITUAL SOUL -- ATMA -- is the center of the INDIVIDUALITY that identifies man as a separate being (even though, as such, it is enclosed within the Universal Spirit/Matter complex -- the UNIVERSAL MONAD in manifestation. And, to our "lower mind" it appears to be responsible (blamable?) for our existence. But it does not (because it cannot) participate in the decisions and choices of the "embodied Mind" (Kama-Manas). Hence, it is not involved in the Karma that the "embodied Mind" (Personality) creates -- whether good or bad. Like a "divine Tutor" this HIGHER SELF has pledged itself to supervise and oversee the doings of its "son" the pupil -- the "Lower Mind -- Kama-Manas, until such time as this "Lower Manas" manages to extricate itself from the ignorance (because it by itself Kama cannot THINK) and impulsiveness of Kama (desire and passion) and become impersonally a "Force for Good alone." [see S D II 167, TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE pp 66 - 77] How does it do this? Through the third aspect of the Monad in Evolution the Higher Mind or Buddhi-Manas. Karma belongs to the Personality ( the Lower -- embodied -- Manas). Convoluted as this explanation may seem, this is the way in which an application of the 7 Principles to Karma and Evolution toward Sublime Perfection ( WISDOM UNIVERSAL) works. Manas stands midway between ignorance ( Kama) and WISDOM ( BUDDHI). In a way, ATMA alone is the ONE PRINCIPLE, and those that we call the "principles in manifestation" are its 6 vehicles -- the glyph of the 2 interlaced triangles is used to indicate this. You will also find that every great existing religion when probed to its origins declares the validity of the great VIRTUES -- just as you narrate those in Buddhism. This shows that all religions originally have been derived from the same common source: THE ETERNAL WISDOM RELIGION -- Theosophy. See if this makes sense. Best wishes, Dallas ----------------------- "Passion and desire together with the astral model-body are common to men and animals, as also to the vegetable kingdom, though in the last but faintly developed...the brute in us is made of the passions and the astral body. The development of the germs of Mind made man because it constituted the great differentiation. The God within begins with Manas or mind, and it is the struggle between this God and the brute below which Theosophy speaks of and warns about. The lower principle is called "bad" because by comparison with the higher it is so, but still it is the basis of action. We cannot rise unless self first asserts itself in the desire to do better. In this aspect it is called rajas or the active bad quality, as distinguished from tamas, or the quality of darkness and indifference. Rising is not possible unless rajas is present to give the impulse, and by use of this principle of passion all the higher qualities are brought to at last so refine and elevate our desires that they may be continually placed upon truth and spirit, By this Theosophy does not teach that the passions are to be pandered to or satiated, for a more pernicious doctrine was never taught, but the injunction is to make use of the activity given by the fourth principle so as to ever rise and not to fall under the dominion of the dark quality that ends with annihilation, after having begun in selfishness and indifference." 0cean 49-50 "...that which is desire, instinctive impulse in the lower, becomes thought in the Higher. The former finds expression in acts, the latter in words. Esoterically, thought is more responsible and punishable than act. But exoterically it is the reverse. Therefore, in ordinary human law, an assault is more severely punished than the thought or intention, i.e., the threat, whereas Karmically it is the contrary." Trans. 142 (see also Key 116, HPB Art II 91) "Individual spirit or Purusha is said to be the cause of experiencing pain and pleasure [through the connection with nature found in the instrument]; for spirit, when invested with matter or prakriti experienceth the qualities that proceed from prakriti; its connection with these qualities [and self-identification with them] is the cause of its rebirth in good and evil wombs." Gita p. 96 ============================== -----Original Message----- From: M Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 11:04 AM To: Subject: On Good and Evil Dear All, Here is a quote from SD II "Good and Evil are twins, the progeny of Space and Time, under the sway of Maya. Separate them, by cutting off one from the other, and they will both die. Neither exists per se, since each has to be generated and created out of the other, in order to come into being; both must be known and appreciated before becoming objects of perception, hence, in mortal mind, they must be divided." SD II pg 96 What do you think about the way to differentiate whetter good and evil are divided in a mortal mind or not? In Noble Eightfold Path of Buddhism there is the study of Right Understanding, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Rigth Meditation. Also "Ligth On the Path" by Mabel Collins has many aspects. Seems hard to achieve but here is another quote that may help: "Perfection, to be fully such, must be born out of imperfection, the incorruptible must grow out of corruptible, having the latter as its vehicle and basis and contrast." (SD II pg 95) Best regards M From listmail@theosophist.org Thu Apr 03 19:15:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: listmail@theosophist.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 4 Apr 2003 03:15:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 39019 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2003 03:15:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2003 03:15:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO host.theosophist.org) (64.191.67.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2003 03:15:24 -0000 Received: from cpe-66-27-176-113.socal.rr.com ([66.27.176.113] helo=scribe) by host.theosophist.org with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 191Hgl-0006Gm-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 22:16:23 -0500 To: Subject: [bn-study] Long Beach Theosophical Conference 2002 Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 19:15:14 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal List-Unsubscribe: X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.theosophist.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - theosophist.org From: "Eldon B Tucker" Reply-To: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=141100620 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker I've been reworking some online theosophical materials and now have something that may be interest to bn-study subscribers. Last Summer, there was a theosophical conference held in Long Beach, with Richard Taylor, Lee McCloskey, and Myrra Lee as featured speakers. I made a video tape of the presentation and have since then encoded both the sound and video for online presentation and/or download. The audio is in 32 kbps mp3 files and the video in real audio format (requiring one to use Real One Player to view.) The video is encoded in 34 kbps format for dial-up-modem connections and 255 kpbs format for broadband connections. The program is online at: http://www.theosophy.com with "Long Beach Theosophical Conference 2002" selected. The talks were Opening of the Conference, Theosophy and Buddhism, Tarot ReVisioned, the Relevance of the Objects, and Closing of the Conference. Feel free to download a copy of any of the files, or listen/view them online. -- Eldon Tucker --- You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [listmail@theosophist.org] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-study-7417175W@lists.lyris.net From listmail@theosophist.org Thu Apr 03 19:27:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: listmail@theosophist.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 4 Apr 2003 03:27:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 28035 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2003 03:27:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2003 03:27:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO host.theosophist.org) (64.191.67.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2003 03:27:59 -0000 Received: from cpe-66-27-176-113.socal.rr.com ([66.27.176.113] helo=scribe) by host.theosophist.org with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 191Hsw-0006f8-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 22:28:58 -0500 To: Subject: Long Beach Theosophical Conference 2002 (resend) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 19:27:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-Sender: listmail@theosophist.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal List-Unsubscribe: X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host.theosophist.org X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - yahoogroups.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [0 0] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - theosophist.org From: "Eldon B Tucker" Reply-To: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=141100620 X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker The message I just sent should have looked like the one below. (I was sending the same message as I sent to another theosophical list, and send i= t off too quickly, before properly editing it to be addressed this time to theos-talk. -- Eldon ---- corrected message ---- I've been reworking some online theosophical materials and now have something that may be interest to theos-talk subscribers. Last Summer, there was a theosophical conference held in Long Beach, with Richard Taylor, Lee McCloskey, and Myrra Lee as featured speakers. I made a video tape of the presentation and have since then encoded both the sound and video for online presentation and/or download. The audio is in 32 kbps mp3 files and the video in real audio format (requiring one to use Real One Player to view.) The video is encoded in 34 kbps format for dial-up-modem connections and 255 kpbs format for broadband connections. The program is online at: http://www.theosophy.com with "Long Beach Theosophical Conference 2002" selected. The talks were Opening of the Conference, Theosophy and Buddhism, Tarot ReVisioned, the Relevance of the Objects, and Closing of the Conference. Feel free to download a copy of any of the files, or listen/view them online. -- Eldon Tucker From wry1111@earthlink.net Fri Apr 04 10:39:06 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 4 Apr 2003 18:39:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 23161 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2003 18:39:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2003 18:39:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2003 18:39:05 -0000 Received: from user-38ldsk6.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.242.134] helo=idapingala) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 191W5f-0005q5-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 04 Apr 2003 10:39:04 -0800 Message-ID: <002601c2fad9$330f8ea0$86f256d1@idapingala> To: References: Subject: A More Honest Approach Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 10:37:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi. Here is a modified message I sent to another list. Sorry if you are getting this twice, but I need to put this out here as it pertains to this list also. > > Wry: Metaphysics, as well as all religion, as I understand it, involves the transmutation of something coarse to something finer, within the physical body of man. All the existing laws of nature are for this NOT to occur. To go against this tendency requires a very exact and specific knowledge. It is unrealistic to believe that a human being, out of his conditioned mental state, which is always formed as a reaction to and movement away from feeling unbearable pain, will be able to arbitrary select a method that will free him from his suffering, as he will always choose the food that is most palatable rather then ther bitter medicine that may be the antedote to his illness. I am so sorry that this is the case, but I did not invent this situation. > > Wry: I am not sure that an idea is the solution, though I get what you are saying and agree with the general principle. Without an inspiration that comes out of a direct seeing, a creative intelligence cannot apply, through the HAND as it touches life, the creative act, in such a way that the problem of human suffering is spontaneously solved (dissolved). People in relationship who have reached an understanding are presumably able to communicate this with others IN THEIR OWN WORDS. This is why I am saddened when I see people who prolifically post the words of others, often out of context, in an attempt to communicate what they themselves obviously do not understand. In my opinion, this kind of activity is directly opposed to establishing any kind of universal brotherhood. I mention this now, as I have seen much of this kind of activity since I first joined Theosophy lists one year ago, though now, probably partly as a result of my own participation, this has decreased. When people attempt to communicate about difficult ideas, it can be very fumbling and clumsy, but this is the beginning of a kind of honesty that would surely need to underly the foundation of any kind of universal brotherhood. This means asking questions and perhaps giving simple examples by describing, in a few words, ones own daily experience. The question is the key to everything, as what we don't know supplies the missing link that will lead us all to freedom, by connecting us to something very alive, interested and intelligent, which we all share in common. It is a kind of work to approach material in this way. To actively stay with the question, rather then going off mechanically and associatively in any direction, is not the same as letting the wind blow me. When the wind blows me, my seed is scattered in so many ways and directions, that it cannot lead to the fruiting of a garden, but when I harness the wind in a certain way, it can eventually come to rest in my heart so that the perfume of a great flowering can blow across the earth and affect many people. But to change from a mode of fantasy to a mode of physical actuality does not happen because I "think" it into happening. This approach is sheer baby stuff and not fitting for anyone who is attempting to develop a mature spirituality. Though a sincere wish is the beginning of right motivation, without specific knowledge and understanding, specific results will be realized. Perhaps there can even be a knowledge of how to wish, but this is not the same as thinking I have this knowledge. (this was re, approaching the problems of humanity from the three basic principles of theosophy.) Wry: Maybe not. Discuss nothing in terms of anything, no matter what, as that anything is invariably tainted. This is the downfall that may have kept theosophy from being more effective in establishing a universal brotherhood. I am ready, willing and able to enquire into this in detail, but so far, in my year on theosophy lists, have found no one who is interested. This is not intended to criticize your message, which I am using as a springboard, for further enquiry. You have used your own words and it sounds like you have a question about how to approach a problem in such a way that the approach will lead to a genuine solution, and this is the quality of message I am looking for when I come on a list. Sincerely, Wry . > > . > From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Apr 04 17:00:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 5 Apr 2003 01:00:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 39202 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2003 01:00:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Apr 2003 01:00:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Apr 2003 01:00:15 -0000 Received: from pool0869.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.191.104] helo=earthlink) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 191c1s-0006Lv-00; Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:59:33 -0800 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: Ocean of Theosophy -- Ch. 11 -- KARMA -- Questions Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 16:58:24 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Friday, April 04, 2003 OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY -- Chapter. 11 -- KARMA -- Questions and Answers ======================================= 11 CHAPTER 11 KARMA DEFINITION of the word. An unfamiliar term. A beneficent law. How present life is affected by past acts of other lives. Each act has a thought at its root. Through Manas they react on each personal life. Why people are born deformed or in bad circumstances. The three classes of Karma and its three fields of operation. National and Racial Karma. Individual unhappiness and happiness. The Master's words on Karma. ============================================ QUESTIONS and ANSWERS Q. With regard to "the persistence of savagery"; are those in savage tribes souls of lesser experience? A. In the nature of evolution-an unfolding from within outwards-there must be souls of lesser experience, whose bodies and environment correspond to their so-far acquired nature. On the other hand there are diminishing physical tribes of which the Australian aborigines are an example, where the more advanced egos have incarnated in other races, leaving the use of that physical line to the less advanced. As the latter in due course leave the physical race, those remaining, being less capable, cause the physical strain to deteriorate, so that only the lowest class of intelligences of that tribe or race occupy such bodies. Finally, the physical race dies out through sterility, the egos connected with it having incarnated in other races. Q. What about the Mexicans? A. There are many classes of egos among the Mexicans as there are in every present-day race; the families are mixed, and races are mixed. In Mexico there are to be seen the results of a mixture of European blood with that of the decadent remains of ancient American civilizations; necessarily under karma, those who came from European strains and mixed with the native ones, are caught in the lines of their own causations and have to work it out by either eliminating the defects of the strain, or going down with it from bad to worse. Q. But the Mexicans show strong patriotism? A. In that respect they are no different from people of other races. Patriotism does not come from mere birth into any race, but from the karmic affinity of the ego for that race; the feeling is there in all such cases, hut the actions that flow from that feeling are not often understood, not wisely applied; the sense of separate ness rules there, as in all more or less ignorant "personalities" of every race. Q. Is there then such a thing as Intelligent Patriotism ? A. There must be, as the opposite to unintelligent patriotism which can he seen on every hand. Q. Could a definition of Intelligent Patriotism be given? A. The question is one of Intelligence as applied to patriotism. A very ignorant man may have a strong patriotic feeling which may be aroused to inconsiderate action by himself or through the incitement of others. A more intelligent man would have a wider range of perception and action and yet concur in national sentiment and action against other nations with what he as an individual would consider wrong as against another individual; both of these cases are basically wrong. A truly intelligent patriotism would consider the individual as an integral part of the nation to which he belonged; the nation as an integral part of the assemblage of nations which constitute humanity as a whole. As every individual is born into a physical body through parents of some race or nation, and thus into the world of men, the karma of each such birth indicates the opportunity of one so born to eradicate in himself the defects of the family through which he came, and through the family the defects of the nation, for national defects are the sum total of all the individuals composing it, and the eradication of these defects begins and ends with the individual. Intelligent patriotism would therefore consist in doing our whole duty in that station where our karma has placed us, to our family, and to humanity as being made up of individuals, families and nations, while recognizing all as being the same in kind and differing only in degree. If our family duties are well and wisely per formed, our duties to tile nation and to humanity would to a great extent take care of themselves. By "family duties" and "national duties" is not meant false attachments to family or nation as a means of pride, pleasure-hunting or sensuality, but cultivating and elevating the higher sentiments and emotions of ourselves and of our family and utilizing them for the performance of our duty to tile nation and humanity in general. Q. It seems to be a hopeless task? A. It seems hopeless because individuals will not apply the remedy in themselves; we would like to wait until the race has improved and then we would fail into line with it, but never has a race or people improved without strong and continued efforts by individuals who have seen a better way and exemplify and impart it. It was said of old that "a little leaven soon leaveneth the whole lump ;" those who have the "leaven" must first apply it in themselves before it can begin to work in others. Q. The chapter speaks of a deficient or bad ego; what does that mean? A. There are many classes of egos. We should remember all the time that egos are evolving; that some Were self-conscious beings when this world of ours began, and that others have become human beings since that beginning and up to the middle point of the Third Race. Besides, the fact that there are bad and deficient men in physical existence points to badness and deficiency in egos, for it is the egos who incarnate. Q. I have understood that the ego is immortal and spiritual in nature! A. The ego is spiritual and immortal in essential nature, but as he possesses the power to perceive and to act and exemplifies the law of action and reaction in himself, as he works from higher to lower planes of substance he becomes involved in the lower planes through attachment to them and suffers accordingly until he overcomes his unwisdom and asserts and uses his real nature on the lower planes. As egos, we are only partially operative in bodies; Manas is not yet fully employed by us as a race; each incarnation is but one aspect of our past existences, we have to make the link between higher and lower, while we are in a body. Q. What would be the outcome if an ego while in a body continued a course of degeneracy and evil for life after life! A. In such a case, the force of the tendencies set in motion would in time break the link between the ego and his instrument during some life-time, and the instrument with the momentum given it would be an entity without a human soul. There are such creatures in the world, human in form, but soul-less. Q. Are we drawing on all our Karmic store during any one life! A. In the life of worlds, races, nations, and individuals, Karma cannot act unless there is an appropriate instrument for its action, and until such instrument exists, that Karma related to it remains unexpended. While a man is experiencing phases of his past karma through body, conditions and environment, his other unexpended karma is held reserved until body, conditions and environment permit the unexpended karma to operate. Lapse of time does not cause any lessening of the force of karma, nor does it change its nature. Q. Must each life express only one phase or class of Karma? A. Not necessarily. Changes may occur in the instrument during one life so as to make it appropriate for a new class of karma. This may take place in two ways; (a) through intensity of thought and the power of a vow to think and do differently, and (b) through natural alterations due to the complete exhaustion of old causes. Q. What determines the karmic tendency of any one life? A. Birth into any sort of body to obtain the results of any sort of Karma is due to the preponderance of tendencies existing. Q. When one is born into the world with certain tendencies that are seen to be undesirable, what can be done to change them and what would be the e of such effort? A. Measures taken by an Ego to repress tendency, eliminate defects, and to counteract by setting up different causes, will alter the sway of Karmic tendency and shorten its influence, in accordance with the strength or weakness of the efforts expended in carrying out the measures adopted. Q. Different sorts of Karma were spoken of; what was meant by the statement? A. Karma may be of three sorts; (a) that which is presently operating in this life through the appropriate instruments; (b) that which is being made or stored up to be exhausted in the future; and (c) that which is held over from past lives and not operating yet because inhibited by the inappropriateness of the instrument in use by the Ego, or by the force of the Karma now operating. Q. Is the body and its circumstances the field of operation of Karma? A. There are three fields of operation of Karma, (a) the body and the circumstances; (b) the mind and intellect; and (c) the psychic and astral planes. As body, mind and soul have each a power of independent action, any one of these may exhaust, independently of the others, some Karmic causes more remote from or nearer to the time of their inception than those operating through other channels. Q. Are any beings free from Karma? A. None whatever; Karma operates on all things and all beings from the minutest conceivable atom up to the highest being. No spot in the manifested universe is exempt from its sway, for manifestation means action, and action brings its exact results. Karma is the inherent law of power to act in every being of every grade; in each case the power to act is exercised according to the degree of intelligence acquired. The Universe is embodied Consciousness. Q. Race-Karma, National Karma, and Family Karma have been spoken about; what do these terms mean? A. As all beings are the same in kind-that is, spiritual in essence and source-all are connected on inner planes, and each one affects all the rest in a helpful or hindering way. Race Karma influences each unit in the race through this law of cause and effect by distribution. National Karma operates on the members of a nation through the same law more concentrated. Family Karma governs only with a nation where the families have been kept pure and distinct; for in any nation where there is a mixture of family-as obtains in every Kali Yuga period-family karma is in general distributed over a nation. All men, flaying the same principles as constituents of their nature, are connected by both inner and outer principles of their being; they therefore affect each other in subtle and unperceived ways, as well as by the external ways which are ordinarily perceived. Q. If all beings of every grade are affected by the dynamic power of human thought and feeling, we, as human beings, must a the lower kingdoms which constitute the earth upon which we live? A. Such is the teaching. Cataclysms of nature are brought about by the separative and destructive effects of selfish and wrong thinking by human beings. A cataclysm may be traced to a physical cause such as internal fire and atmospheric disturbance, but these have been brought on by the disturbance created by the dynamic power of human thought. Some hint of this is to be found in the writings of St. Paul when he speaks of the whole of creation groaning in travail because of the iniquities of man. Q. Do all bunion beings have to suffer in such cataclysms? A. No. Egos who have no Karmic connection with a portion of the globe where a cataclysm is coming on, are kept without the latter's operation in two ways: (a) by repulsion acting on their inner nature which induces them to move elsewhere, or (h) by being warned by those who watch the progress of the world. Q. How can the actions of men produce convulsions of nature (p. 96)? A. Through their cumulative effect upon the psychic nature of elemental beings. Karma is the key-note of all conditions, for it governs the smallest atom as well as the highest spiritual being. The elementals of the mineral kingdom, and of the kingdoms below that (the elementals proper) are psychic embryos." Every thought of man upon being evolved passes into the inner world, and becomes an active entity by coalescing with an elemental-that is to say, with one of the semi-conscious forces of the kingdoms. It survives as an active intelligence-a creature of the mind's begetting. Thus a good thought is perpetuated as an active, beneficent power; an evil one as a maleficent demon. The automatically acting brain stores up only brute energies, and begets correlations that are unfruitful of benefit, at last bringing about convulsions in nature. It is analogous to combinations of chemicals produced by scientific minds-antagonistic elements held in leash, which at last a spark suffices to release and bring about terrific explosions. Q. And similarly, man's actions or Karma can bring about beneficial effects in the lower kingdoms of nature? A. It is man who is the real motive and directing power in this universe, for he is at the head, being self-conscious, with the power of acquiring qualities, of understanding the natures of all beings, and of manipulating the lower natures. It devolves on him so to use those natures as to bring about the best results for all the beings concerned in the stream of evolution which makes up this earth and solar system. Man has produced many combinations and transformations in the lower kingdoms, not possible to them of their un aided powers, which are beneficent. Q. Then man is a creator in a far wider sense than We are accustomed to think A. Undoubtedly. The impulse to action in the lower kingdoms originally proceeds from him. The conscious action of the lower kingdoms all proceeds from man. After the action there is always the reaction. The elements, the "air, water, fire and earth," or any portion or combination of these, all have their reactions upon us. We experience those reactions from the elements because of our attitude towards them and use of them, for we are the ones who induce them to act whether in a beneficent or maleficent way. Tornadoes, earthquakes, sufferings of any kind such as wars or strife, either in the elements or amongst men, are all produced by man. Q. You spoke of the "automatically acting brain"; is there another kind of action possible with our brains? A. Certainly. In the one case there is but brute force stored up and flung out without any transmutation of that brute energy into higher forms of dynamics. In the other, the intellection of the truly scientifically occupied brain, there is the evolution of a sublimated form of spiritual energy which, cosmically speaking, is productive of illimitable results for good. The human brain may be used as an exhaustless generator of higher forms of energy from lower. The adept does not create anything new; he only transforms the materials in nature The one wastes and debases the creative power; the other conserves and elevates the natures of all. Q. There would seem to be no limit to any one's responsibility A. There isn't. Whenever and whatever any one thinks or does, he cannot do so without affecting other beings, whether human beings or beings below or above, as every action is felt throughout the whole of the universe in some degree. He gets the reaction in his own moral nature from the lines of his mental action; and at the same time he will he physically acting along the same lines, affecting others for good or evil both on the inner and the outer planes of action; then he gets the physical reaction. Q. Then there is never any injustice? A. There is no injustice. What we see as apparent injustice seems so because we do not see the causes which have produced the present ill effects. If we have no knowledge of our own real nature and the Law of Karma that is inherent in it, then the feeling can only be that we have received injustice, and we harbor hatred and resentments. What prevents our understanding these things is mainly that we do not know what we are here for. We look at things from a one-life basis, and finding ourselves in this life we imagine it is something we had nothing to do with. Seeing others, according to our view, more fortunate than ourselves, we want to know why, and no answer being possible on the basis we have assumed, we assume that we are receiving injustice. If Karma is the doctrine of responsibility, Reincarnation is the doctrine of hope. The two go together. The reason we are on earth, according to the Occult teaching: we are not here because of our virtues; we are here because of our defects. The "personality" is really the working off of defects. If we do not learn what the object of life is, and don't do the work, then we are only creating more defects to adjust, and more trouble for ourselves. Q. Who is to be the judge of a man's motives in what he feels and what he does? A. The man himself. But he must forget himself if he is to judge truly. No judge can be impartial if he has any self-interest in his own decisions. So if we have any self-interest in our decisions we cannot judge our motives; we can only judge them aright when we seek nothing for ourselves. The best guide and the greatest protection any man can have is a firm desire to benefit humanity and seek nothing for himself. Q. By punishing those who have earned punishment, do we not aid Karma, and become an agent of justice? A. No. The Bible has many occult sayings. You know the one which says, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord (Law). The Law takes care of its own. We do not have to make ourselves instruments of vengeance. We have in our modern civilization our means of taking vengeance; but as a matter of fact our means are errant, imperfect, and injurious. The taking of the life of a fellow being for having killed another, is no more justified when done by a number of men than was the first murder. That is wrong, but to sequester the murderer so that he can not continue to injure others, is quite another story. Q. Do we injure others with our hatred? A. No man can feel hatred and not injure others. Q. But if our own thoughts are such that there is no hatred in us, we would not be affected by the hatred of another? A. That is the whole story. If a man thinks and feels toward his fellow-men without either hatred or revenge in him, nothing of that kind can touch him. Q. If one affected by the action of another has no desire to injure that other, does that mitigate the action for that other? A. Of course it does. But there are two propositions there. The one who has been injured is reaping what he has sown or he could not have been injured. But he may, by his change of nature and attitude and his desire to cease injuring others, refuse to do any evil in return. But the one who inflicts or still holds the injury gets all the reactions that flow from that attitude. He has not changed; he is still the same nature; still has the same desire. Oftentimes when one does injury to another and gets no return in kind, he is more incensed than ever. You cannot make another feel differently unless he wants to. So, while we may be thinking kindly of another, we cannot change his feelings. He alone can do that. So we might help him and we might not; hut at all events we get the benefit of the effect of our own beneficent attitude. If we do not affect the other favorably it is because he is so infected (not affected) that we cannot help him. It all depends on the nature of the recipient; on the "nature of the beast." Take a rattlesnake. No man, however kind his feelings, could change that snake's nature. Q. But if it is our Karma to have bad and revengeful feelings and thoughts, then we cannot help acting that way? A. Yes we can. Karma is present action as well as the present effect of former acting. While we may not always be able to affect the attitude of another, we can, as just said, always affect our own attitude. If we could not we would be mere machines, mere creatures of our past, not Creators in the present. We ought to know that, for anybody knows better than to inflict injury. He recognizes what is harmful to another, but if he is so selfish that he does not care, he becomes a destructive force, not a creative one; and must take the reaction. "Evil must be in the world, but woe to him by whom evil comes." Woe to those who make themselves the agent through whom evil Karma acts, because it is their own nature that is played upon in that case. Q. What does it mean to be Karma-less? A. All that is Karma-less is that in us which lives and thinks, the Perceiver, the Real Man. He is the institutor and the experiencer of all Karma. There is no Karma unless he makes it. He is not changed by Karma, neither made greater nor less; but while attached to action (Karma) or in a body and circumstances created by him, he experiences all that flows from the actions to which he is attached, until he ceases from the attachment to that kind of action. He gets whatever experiences his actions in that body bring him. Q. The OCEAN says that certain entities through wickedness are annihilated. Does that refer to the Eco? A. How could it, if the Ego, the real Man, is not affected permanently by action? Let us look at it in this way: An Ego, or spiritual being, has been so wholly wicked in his actions for many incarnations that there is not a kind thought or feeling of any kind; nothing but brutal and selfish thoughts, producing only pain and suffering in the world. His works are destroyed: the personality built up by that kind of thought and feeling. Nothing of that personality can be attached to or assimilated by the spiritual being. His attitude having been wholly against the rest, the motion of the whole must at last crush that kind of works (Karma) out of existence. That does not destroy the Ego, but it destroys his works, his accumulation of experiences. It throws him out of his place, and he has to start again from where he was before his evil courses began, for that is where he be longs. The Ego cannot be annihilated; but his incarnations may be of such a nature as to be lost and he be thrown out of a certain stream and have to go back to the place where he left the line and begin again. But the real Man remains and his real works; that is, the acquired wisdom and the acquired experience. He may lose a lot of leaves out of the Book of Life, but He remains. Q. But there must be Karma to bring that Ego back' again? A. He gets the Karma of having to go back to the mental deposits stored up in long previous incarnations, whether on this globe or some other, and starting afresh on a line based on those mental de posits. He has lost a vast amount of time and effort, and experienced a vast amount of fruitless suffering- fruitless of good, that is, its only effect being destructive of all his works. And he has to overcome the tendencies he has engendered, when he comes into incarnation again-the tendencies to repeat. Q. This seems somewhat confusing. A. There should be no confusion if you keep in mind the idea of the Individuality-the permanent spiritual being, the reincarnating Ego, which is the Triad of Atma-Buddhi-Manas. Lower Manas-the personality- is the outlook upon physical existence which Higher Manas has, as the result of his thought and action on the physical plane of life. He may change that outlook, or he may lose it, and begin a new series of efforts; or in some cases he may be thrown out for that incarnation or for a great period and have to incarnate in a new period, under conditions of ignorance instead of knowledge. That, too, is his Karma; the evil results engendered by his own former actions. The only basis he would have would be the tendencies he had en gendered; and these he would have to conquer. Q. Cannot this fate be avoided? A. Only by a change of basis; the adoption of a better course of action. Any attempt to "avoid" the re suits of our own actions only results in a stronger re action; because by attempting to avoid, we merely store up or hold back that force which would naturally have exhausted itself in its own period. Q. What really is the cause of Karma? A. Karma is first, last and all the time, action; and we cannot understand Karma until we grasp the idea that the whole of the universe is intelligence, expressing itself in myriads of forms and in many ways. It is the action of intelligence that produces all the effects perceived on this plane of existence. Q. How does that statement apply to the individual? A. Individually each one is Karma, for he is both the actor and the one who receives the results that proceed from his action. Karma is never an outside force, nor any being nor beings; it is the collective actions of beings with which we have placed ourselves in some relation, but that relation is wholly individual on our part. We set certain causes in motion and are bound to experience the results that flow from those causes, for every motion in the universe affects other beings in every direction, and there is always the reaction upon the point of disturbance. We must of necessity be the adjuster. Q. Then Karma is the force that moves the individual's action? A. We make a mistake in thinking that "forces" do anything of themselves. Forces are operative all the time; but no number of forces will set us right when we are acting wrongly. Intelligence, moved in proper or improper directions, is the real actor, and we ourselves are that intelligence. If our intelligence is not operated rightly, then no other intelligence can help us. If there are beneficent and powerful forces, the only way we can work with them and benefit from them is by raising ourselves up to their plane of operation. So with malignant and destructive forces: the only way we can get into the line of their power is by ourselves being malignant and destructive. Q. The Lipika are mentioned in the Secret Doc trine as Lords of Karma, as recorders of Karma. It would seem as if they were outside beings. A. No, the Lipika are not personal beings, al though that idea has been given currency by many "theosophical" students who have entirely misapprehended the statements in the Secret Doctrine. That such beings practically "manipulate" Karma is foreign to the whole teaching. There are as component parts of every human being, principles, which are drawn from the seven great hierarchies of being. Action, whenever taken, is taken with, through, and felt by one or the other or all of these principles, and there is registration of the general and individual effect produced-all that is good and all that is bad-among those hierarchies to which the principles belong. The action finds its own place and focus of reaction. Each hierarchy has its own individuality as a mass; individuality is not characteristic of the units. Hence, the Lipika may be regarded as the re cording points of the general and individual effects of Karma; though this statement requires as a mode of explanation, geometry, which is an expression in form of the reaction of all the forces in nature. Q. How, then, can we become Karma-less? A. We can never become Karma-less, in the sense of being free from Karma, for Karma operates on every being from the smallest atom to the highest being in the universe. But when we cease acting in any way for personal benefit, when the cause is always universal in its action, then the effects are commensurate with the law. We are Karma-less because we are not dispensing the law; we are only agents of it and focuses of it. Q. Could an individual eliminate himself from the national Karma of a selfish nation? A. A nation is made selfish by the individuals in it, and selfishness will make war between individuals, classes of men, or masses of men since war begins within the man, not outside of him. But if an individual does not assent to the selfish ideas that rule his nation nor to the methods pursued in accordance with them, and if he protests against them wherever he can, then he is not connected with them. He is amongst it all under Karma, and whatever Karma is due him from his connection in the first place he will receive, but he has cut the connection with the national idea so far as any future Karma is concerned. Q. Are not all the workers in socialism, in labor unions and in similar lines helping to mitigate the national Karma? A. Doubtless they are all sincere in their devotion and self-sacrificing for it, but what permanent betterment can come if they are working for wrong things in a wrong way? Their motive is wholly concerned with physical existence, prosperity, ease, comfort. No attempt along those lines can ever bring any lasting benefit, as witness various so-called reforms that have come and gone-reformers with them. Where are their sacrifices? We all proceed from the same Source and are all traveling toward the same goal; but we shall not get right methods and right relations until we understand our own natures, and act in accordance with them. That is the only way we can mitigate either national or individual Karma. Q. But if every one had an education he might be able to understand these things? A. One's education makes no essential difference. Any man can understand justice. He can understand that merit is the only thing that can bring merit, and he can understand enough to do his duty to his family and to all others. Generally speaking, men think the world owes them a living, opportunity, education. All that we need to consider is that we owe the world our service. The situation of every man depends on what his nature actually is. If a man is good and just and noble in his mind, he doesn't require better conditions to bring it out. The mere living under educational advantages does not mean knowledge, or under standing of the causes of oppression. Moreover, no person, with the disposition to learn will fail to find a way to learn, regardless of conditions. Q. What, then, prevents men from understanding right and wrong, and this justice we call Karma! A. They take the position of irresponsibility, by resentment at supposed injustice; they expect to reap where they did not sow; they are looking for some thing for themselves. So they are ready to listen to any or all of the various panaceas offered, and go after whatever promises something for nothing. They do not look within; they are not humble; they do not ask what is the purpose of the Inner Man; how is it they are as they are, and not in some other place under other conditions. Q. Do you feel that the understanding of these ideas of Karma and Reincarnation alone can save the nation from internal troubles? A. It is the only way out. Until men understand that they are here not for once, that whatever they receive they have merited, we shall have just as much and worse trouble than that we have already had, for the longer it goes on the more intense will be the reactions. But, perhaps men will listen to these obvious self-evident truths only when there has been such an absolute subversion and destruction that they have to stop and think. How the Masters would if They could, save humanity! They have done all they can. The Message is here, and it is our only hope. Jesus said, "0, Jerusalem, how I would have gathered thee under my wing as a hen doth her chickens, but ye would not." And Jerusalem was destroyed. We need not think there is not the same danger for us. There is nothing in our civilization that is enduring--of railroads, books, buildings-not a single relic would be left after a hundred years. So if there are those who have eyes to see, who have ears to hear and who can understand, let them work in sea son and out of season to put these ideas before their fellow-men, that the ideas may spread and make others think. Q. Then the understanding of a comparatively few individuals would make for right conditions? A. Let them try it out. Right conditions can only come where individuals will "follow the Path." Who, then, is going to do it? There is no one holding any one back from exhibiting a true Theosophic life. But what is first needed is the understanding of the Theosophic life. It can be lived anywhere, alone or in crowds, for it is a life of right ideas. The only way to better conditions is through better ideas. Bettering conditions without bettering ideas merely puts men in a place more favorable for acting on wrong ideas and gives them opportunity for exploiting their selfishness. Q. Would not the mere desire to aid suffering humanity finally open a door for action? A. If we really desire to help humanity and forget our selves, working for others with no thought of success or failure or reward, the doors will open to us as soon as we are ready. That is Law. Q. If one desires benefit for the whole, he him self benefits by that desire? A. We should remember that a desire is not a condition. A mere desire does not go very far unless we establish the conditions that cause the desire to be potent or active. If we desire to benefit humanity, the question is, What are we doing to produce that benefit? What we have to do is to stop thinking about ourselves, stop figuring for ourselves, stop thinking how we are going to come out. For this "we" is personality, which is always changing, from year to year, month to month, from day to day. Q. When our Karma does not permit us to take any active part in ameliorating the stress of world conditions, what should be our attitude of mind toward them. A. It is to maintain a cheerful, calm, confident attitude, realizing that the mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly small; that Karma is causing adjustments to come about which must bring a realization, in some degree at least, of universal brotherhood, not possible under any other conditions. But if we sit despondent and say there is nothing to do and no use in doing anything, because people are selfish and never will see, nothing can be done. We must always be confident in the greatest determination to hold the right attitude on the basis of thought which Theosophy presents, working always for right, for principle, for freedom of Soul. Q. Yet working on that basis does not bring good Karma, as judged by the Karma of Jesus on the cross. A. The question is not whether we are working for good Karma or bad Karma, but are we trying to do the right thing. In the case of a Being like Jesus, it is necessary at times to take a body of the race, that He may communicate with the people, teach them and help them as only can be done through a body similar to their own. He takes the body of a family, necessarily, and fulfils his Karma as a member of that family, physically considered. He mitigates the family or the race Karma, merely by experiencing their bodily Karma, and in correcting family defects lifts so much the higher that family Karma. Q. He ended that Karma. then and there? A. So far as that body was concerned. But even the highest Being who enters into a physical body to deliver a message, by His very attitude and by His very action, and by the Message He is to bring, finds Himself at variance with the established order of things, and reaps insult, slander, vilification, and mal treatment from all those who oppose Him. Does He earn this? No; it is not His Karma, but the Karma of those who persecute, slander and maltreat Him. Q. Would a Theosophist fear to do evil on account of the bad Karma coming to himself. A. He would fear to do evil, not because of the bad Karma that would come to him, but because he knows better than to do evil. He knows only to do good, and if he does evil he must necessarily fear, for the consequences are sure, and the fact is before him that the evil is not only at his own expense, personally considered, but must reproduce itself upon other un suspecting persons who are inclined that way. Was it not Jesus who said, "As ye mete unto others, so shall it be meted unto you, so measured unto you again, heaped up, pressed down and running over?" If we are Theosophists, then we know how to count the cost, and we are able to figure up beforehand the compound interest that goes with evil actions. Nor, on the other hand, should we be looking for protection for our selves against evil doing, but so think and act that no protection is needed; nothing but right can touch us if we think right, act right, and feel right. Wrong comes to us in no other way than by our thinking evilly and selfishly. Q. The spiritual nature of man is never affected by Karma. A. No; the Unchanging Spirit in man is not affected in its nature, or changed by anything it may experience, but it has its increase of power and knowledge through various phases of evolution and advancement. Let us not make the mistake of looking for any finality but rather from the point of view of continuous progression. A state of perfection as a finality would be stagnation. In an infinite universe there are infinite opportunities, and whatever heights of knowledge or power may be attained, there must always be further fields beyond. Q. Is it the tendency of Karma to always restore equilibrium, so that at the end of a Mahamanvantara the whole of the Karma between beings would be adjusted, or equilibrium absolutely restored? A. There is not so much a complete readjustment, in the sense that all beings are individually readjusted, as there is a stoppage of interaction of the whole mass. Just so, when our physical action ceases by reason of the death of the body, Karma is not yet readjusted, but awaits our return into a body again where we may go on with it. There must always be for any evolution effects not yet adjusted. The rate of progress of any being is in accordance with the progress of the whole mass during the manvantara; so his progress is shared or controlled by the universal Karma of which he is a Part. At the end of a manvantara, then, there may be said to be a period of assimilation, rather than one of entire adjustment, which, however, enables an other basis to be taken by the whore mass of beings involved. Q. Then Karma is just suspended for the time? A. Yes; for time is not a factor in the adjustment of Karma. It is a question of conditions. Q. But is it not possible to find the time of reaction from a cause previously set up? A. Purely physical reactions can, of course, be so checked up, but when we come to mental reactions, the time involved is affected by the conditions in which we put ourselves or find ourselves. We make the favorable condition for reaction. Karma may be existent, in the sense that the causation has gone forth and the effect felt by others, but we may not yet be in that condition where we can make the adjustment, because other Karma is operating so strongly as to hold this particular reaction back. It is said that he who understands Karma under stands the limits of time, and he who understands the limits of time understands Karma, but that under standing will not be ours until we understand the Operation of causes, nor is it necessary. If we could now know exactly when the rebound of an action would come, we should probably spend all our time figuring just what we could do to dodge it, to improve it, or to arrange just the right condition in which to receive it. The thing to do is to meet anything and everything exactly as it comes. We should not take the position of providing money for a rainy day, which is just a fig- tiring for ourselves. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Take care of today. Never mind the next hour. Take care of this one. Take care of every moment, every hour, as it comes along, fearing nothing, doubting nothing, in f till confidence, relying on the Law of our own natures. If we feel our responsibility and ac quit ourselves as best we can for the good of all with out taking any thought as to what the effect will be to ourselves, then we shall be adjusting and working out Karma in the best possible way. Q. Can not very good Karma quickly overcome the effects of evil? A. No, it cannot ; the effects of each must run their course, although two classes of Karma, equally strong, if of opposite nature, would neutralize for the time being and permit the operation of a weaker class of Karma. But if we are talking of the effects felt through a body, we may know that they are only a small portion of Karma. No matter what the Karma, however bad or detrimental, however good, if the attitude of the one going through it is right, it comes as an opportunity. The only way we can lessen the effects of bad Karma is to take the right attitude toward it. When good times come, we can sow good causes; when bad times come, we still can try to sow good causes, using the opportunity to gain strength, courage, and under standing of life. We seem to be always trying to avoid evil Karma, and get good Karma for ourselves, where as what we should do is to make use of everything as it comes. In this way, we pay our debts to a debtor we cannot avoid-ourselves. We don't put effort into trying to avoid anything, but go right to work on what is before us. Then the soul begins to act, the will begins to act, and the power of the will is increased. There is no will operating with a shifting, veering personality, afraid of this, and of that, fearful that it won't be able to stand this or that. Only the feeling of responsibility will lift us out of those personal considerations. Q. The very best Karma would be working off bad Karma, then ? A. Well, let us say nothing is good and nothing is had, but all is opportunity,-the very best opportunity, because the soul knows what it needs for increasing its powers and keeping its energy. We sometimes do not recognize our opportunities, for they are occurring every moment of the time. Every single event is an opportunity-even the passing of people on the street and the thoughts and feelings they stir up in us; what ever we feel toward others, our relations with them, our touch with them, our family relations, our social, our business, and our national relations,-all these are opportunities to be taken advantage of in every way; every one of them constitutes Karma. Our touch with Theosophy is a Karmic opportunity. Q. It seems to be possible to distribute Karma over a long period of time? A. Again, that is dependent upon the attitude we hold. We may distribute Karma over a long period of time, or we may hurry it, because we are self-conscious beings, and that fact always means we have the power of choice. Our very different attitude to wards life because of our study of Theosophy has the tendency to hasten Karma; or we may say, as we hasten, we meet Karma. Q. Can Karma be precipitated too heavily? A. No one of us, perhaps, would have either the disposition or the courage to push so far ahead that we should be unable to bear the burden of Karma. We shall never have a burden we can not carry, al though it may seem too heavy. We must clear up that in us which is not righteous, which is not just, and which does not permit us to act as we ought to act. The faster we do that, the better, but we hasten only just as much as we can take care of. We hasten beneficial as well as bad Karma, of course, but the man who won't trust his past Karma for either good or evil can not make very fast progress. ====================================================================== ==== From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Apr 04 18:02:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_6_5); 5 Apr 2003 02:01:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 87825 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2003 02:01:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Apr 2003 02:01:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Apr 2003 02:01:59 -0000 Received: from pool0547.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.14.37] helo=earthlink) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 191czn-0005gA-00; Fri, 04 Apr 2003 18:01:28 -0800 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: OCEAN of THEOSOPHY -- Ch. 10 -- Reincarnation -- Questions Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 18:00:57 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Dallas TenBroeck" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Friday, April 04, 2003 OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY OF Theosophy -- Questions & Answers 10 CHAPTER 10 ARGUMENTS SUPPORTING REINCARNATION FROM the nature of the soul. >From the laws of mind and soul. >From differences in character. >From the necessity for discipline and evolution. >From differences of capacity and start in life at the cradle. Individual identity proves it. The probable object of life makes it necessary. One life not enough to carry out Nature's purposes. Mere death confers no advance. A school after death is illogical. The persistence of savagery and decay of nations give support to it. The appearance of geniuses is due to reincarnation. Inherent ideas common to man show it. Opposition to the doctrine based solely on prejudice. ====================== Q. Why is it that so many people, the majority in fact, reject the idea of reincarnation? A. Largely from prejudice, either based upon a materialistic conception of life, or due to belief in a dogma which inhibits the exercise of the thinking powers. The majority of people do not do their own thinking, but accept one or other of the various kinds of ideas formulated and held by others ; that which is accepted and held by large numbers of people is to very many prima facie evidence of truth. Few go below the surface and enquire into the bases upon which the various beliefs are founded, yet the seeker after truth must prove all things and hold fast to that only which is self-evidently true. Q. Theosophy teaches that there are other humanities on other planets; is it not possible for an ego to go to some other planet after this life? A. When we consider that the inherent law of Karma rules all beings; that we reap as we have sown; that our birth and environment in this life is the result of previous lives on this planet, we cannot fail to see that our re-embodiment must be here, where we moved and worked before. The involved entity cannot transfer itself to another scene of action before it has over come all the causes drawing it here, and without its having worked out its responsibilities to other entities in the same stream of evolution. Q. On page 80 the chapter says that "Each human being has a definite character different from every other human being". Is not a large part of such character derived from the physical heredity? A. Man, who now inhabits physical bodies, is also the conscious entity who evolved and established them. Every family trait, tendency and characteristic is due to the use of physical bodies in that line of physical heredity by numbers of egos, and all are karmically drawn to that physical family line which each one had a part in establishing, thus coming into his own inheritance. Karma not only includes our individual sowing and reaping, but also the effects of our thoughts, words and deeds upon others, and especially upon those who are the most closely related. Each ego in incarnation has the opportunity to eliminate family defects in himself, and by so doing benefit the physical line. Q. Please explain the second paragraph on page 87; it seems a little contradictory to me. A. Mr. judge is there speaking of the musician Bach, whose family had none of his genius and pointing to the fact that it was not derived from physical heredity, but was peculiar to the incarnating entity. The coming of idiots or vicious children to parents who are good, pure and highly intellectual is not due to the physical heredity, but to the nature of the Ego incarnating. In such cases there must be some strong karmic connection between the parents and the deficient Ego, a connection incurred during past lives wherein some error of commission or omission had occurred and had contributed to the deficiency of the one so born. Such incarnations fulfill two purposes: (1) they provide a better opportunity for the deficient ego at the hands of those who were contributory to that deficiency, and (2) the karmic effects are felt by the parents, and the opportunity afforded for such adjustment as is possible by them. "Karma is an unerring tendency in the universe to restore equilibrium and it operates incessantly." Karma is made by the Egos, not by the bodies they inhabit. Q. Why is it that an ego will bring over one particular predominating factor ? A. Because the attention and effort of the Ego in other lives were exerted in that particular direction. it is well known that geniuses in many cases are eccentric in character, and occasionally abnormal to a marked degree; this is due to a one-sided development; right development should be all-round and balanced, not special in any one direction and neglectful of others. Q. On page 86 the chapter says that the old Aryan races will rise again to their height of glory. Does this mean that they will be always in existence? A. The chapter says, "Of all the old races the Aryan Indian alone yet remains as the preserver of the old doctrines. It will one day rise again to its old heights of glory". We are of the Aryan race, but Mr. Judge is speaking of the Aryan Indian race which alone has preserved the old doctrines, because of which it will rise again to its old heights of glory. Speaking generally, the Aryan is the Fifth Race; when its course has been completed, the egos composing the present Fifth Race will constitute the Sixth Race. Q. On page 87 it is said that the bee builds a cell on the rules of geometry, and that its intelligence is the effect of reincarnation either in the mind or the physical cell. Do the lower kingdoms follow the human kingdom? A. The statement referred to reads as follows, "And whether we look at the new-born babe flinging out its arms for self-protection, or the animal with very strong instinctual power, or the bee building a cell on the rules of geometry, it is all the effect of reincarnation acting either in the mind or physical cell, for under what was first laid down, no atom is devoid of life, consciousness, and intelligence of its own". The passage does not say that the intelligence of the bee is the effect of reincarnation in the mind or cell. It says that in the new-born babe, the animal, or the bee all that there appears is the effect of reincarnation, either in the mind, or in the physical cell, according to the kind of intelligence expressed and its particular form; "no atom is devoid of life, consciousness, and intelligence of its own". The human kingdom impresses and impels the lower lives for good or for evil. Q. On page 80, "Even the doctrine of the survival of the fittest should show this, for the fitness cannot come from nothing but must at last show itself from the coming to the surface of the actual inner character". Please explain that. A. The explanation seems quite clear in the paragraph from which the quotation is taken. Each individual has a definite character, the result of previous lives; whatever "fitness" there may be is due to previous existences. There are assemblages of individuals that we call nations; these nations have their distinguishing characteristics; the individuals composing these nations are drawn together because of similarity of distinguishing characteristics which constitute their peculiar "fitness" for any particular nation. All this is clue to karmic affinity-"like attracts like." Q. Will those who are killed in this war follow the line of anger and battle when they incarnate again? A. "Every human being has a definite character different from every other human being", and this is true whether in war or peace. As the character and tendencies are in peace, so they will be in war, for both peace and war are conditions and (do not in themselves change character. The question is, "Does war of necessity change an individual's character ?" There is no reason to think so. One of good character and tendencies would be likely to have these strengthened by the trials and self-sacrifice entailed by the conditions of war; in another in whom character and tendency were not good, the same conditions might afford opportunity for intensification of evil tendencies. It is all a question of the individual character and motive and the lessons learned, that form the basis for future incarnations. Q. Could a savior bring Russia [1914-18] out of the chaos in which she now is? A. The chaotic conditions of Russia are an extreme example of the world-wide conditions; in no case is it possible to change such conditions save by a change of mind on the part of the people involved. A divine incarnation could do nothing unless the people would be willing to follow the lines such an one laid down. It is apparent that even in our own free country conditions are approaching a situation not so very far removed from that of Russia, for we are beginning to experience the results of selfish class interest, the sole basis of which is money and the power that it gives its possessors. Those who have, desire to hold and increase possessions; those who have not, would take from the present possessors and become in their turn the possessors of the future; in both cases the rank principle of personal selfishness prevails; there is nothing to choose between them. Q. Surely the intelligence of our people will prevent any such catastrophe as that which has befallen Russia [1914-18]? A. Intelligence, based upon high principles and true knowledge cannot fail to make for justice and right living, but intelligence founded upon personal selfishness can go to any lengths in the way of destruction. Ignorance and selfishness have brought Russia to her present pass. Intelligence and selfishness can do much worse. The question really is, "Upon what is the intelligence founded ?" Is it a material, a moral, or a spiritual conception? It is very evident that the prevailing idea among Western peoples is material in conception and practice; the more intelligence used along this line the more certain, rapid and destructive the results. Q. But Western peoples have the Christian religion to guide them; they believe in the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man? A. There is no doubt that the principles enunciated by Jesus of Nazareth would make the world a better and a happier one, but who among all the people follows them in his daily life or in his dealings with his fellow-men; we profess "belief" in those principles and promulgated ethics and daily and hourly contravene them; of what avail is our religion or our belief, if we do not live it? Ancient history affords us examples of the same principles and ethics promulgated by divine incarnations in the ages gone by, but the people of those times professed acceptance of the teachings and following the path of materialism went down to extinction. Unless we change our ideas of life, and live according to the eternal verities, our Western nations with their materialistic civilizations will die out and disappear. Q. What is meant by "The Eternal Verities?" A. "The Eternal Verities" are based upon the Spiritual nature of Man; his evolution under Spiritual Law from the lowest form of intelligence to the highest; that the Law is inherent in each being and that each reaps what he sows without possibility of evasion; that physical existence is the lowest and least permanent of all the forms and is conditioned by Man him self in accordance with his recognition or denial of his Spiritual and Moral nature as the true basis of all life. Q. You mean an understanding and living of Theosophy? A. Just that. Man must save himself; no one, how ever high in intelligence and spiritual power, can do it f or him. He must learn and exercise his Spiritual perceptions arid powers and make the material expression of them conform to that Spiritual nature. In fact, he will have to learn even if through untold lives he brings upon himself inexpressible suffering; for when he has suffered enough he will see the error of his ways, and then, perhaps through many lives, make restitution for wrongs done, or duties left undone. Q. If the entire world today adhered strictly to Theosophy, would there be competition? A. There would be emulation, not competition. The latter is an endeavor to benefit at the expense of others, while emulation is an effort to excel so as to be of greater benefit and service in the world of men; this service, however, must be based upon the needs of the Soul and not upon the imaginary physical requirements born of materialistic conceptions. =========================================================== From inquire@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Apr 06 08:07:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: