From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Mar 01 03:05:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 1 Mar 2003 11:05:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 93117 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2003 11:05:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2003 11:05:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2003 11:05:20 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a4909b.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.144.155]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 701725EE12C for ; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 12:05:19 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001f01c2dfe1$422d5ce0$9b90a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <232810-2200336154724976@M2W034.mail2web.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World figures in history compared Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 11:56:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, The following are just my humble views: Yes. Why not - relate - your debate to theosophical - core values ? And why not use the good words, which good people has used, and not only the bad ones ? I could suggest to throw a parallel spiritually angled debate in - and compare the differences between young president Bush and Martin Luther King Jr. My question is - how is it so, that USA has reached this moment i history ? Why didn't USA listen to Martin Luther King Jr. - and why do so many today support the young Bush and his friends policy ? King and his friends non-violence movement and Kings speeches - is at least something, which theosophy should be concerned about, - when putting USAs present situation to debate - and considering spiritual actions in their daily lifes. I have in the below put some excerpts of Kings and young president Bush - so one can compare their views. Well, it is to me an issue to meditate through, so one can rethink ones position - spiritually. 1. Here are again some excerpts of Kings words: "I think the first reason that we should love our enemies, and I think this is at the very center of Jesus' thinking, is this: that hate for hate only intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. If I hit you and you hit me and I hit you back and you hit me back and go on, you see, that goes on ad infinitum. It just never ends. Somewhere somebody must have a little sense, and that's the strong person. The strong person is the person who can cut off the chain of hate, the chain of evil. And that is the tragedy of hate, that it doesn't cut it off. It only intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. Somebody must have religion enough and morality enough to cut it off, and inject within the very structure of the universe that strong and powerful element of love." Excerpted from "Loving Your Enemies", a sermon delivered on 17 November 1957 at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Ala. (full text) "Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on earth, our loyalties must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; no nation can live alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to have war in this world. Now the judgement of God is upon us, and we must either learn to live together as brothers or we are all going to perish together as fools." Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 December 1967 at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga. ------- So is this also, what the young president Bush is preaching ? No ! 2. Here are some excerpts of some of the young Bush statements: "It is white." -George W. Bush, asked by a child in Britain what the White House was like, July 19, 2001 Earlier, in his State of the Union address (i.e. 2003 - M. Sufilight), he said, "The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." "The president when he speaks, speaks in a very inclusive way, very respectful ... of the fact that we are a nation whose great strengths come from the fact that we have people of so many faiths and people who have chosen not to have any particular religious affiliation," Fleischer said. In his State of the Union address, Bush reflected on the challenges facing the nation as it prepares for possible war: "We Americans have faith in ourselves, but not in ourselves alone. We do not claim to know all the ways of providence, yet we can trust in them, placing our confidence in the loving God behind all of life and all of history. May he guide us now, and may God continue to bless the United States of America." ("Bush talking more about religion"; CNN http://www.cnn.com/ ; Tuesday, February 18, 2003 Posted: 4:37 PM EST (2137 GMT) ------- "We're taking action against evil people. Because this great nation of many religions understands, our war is not against Islam, or against faith practiced by the Muslim people. Our war is a war against evil. This is clearly a case of good versus evil, and make no mistake about it -- good will prevail." Remarks by the President George W. Bush at a Town Hall Meeting with Citizens of Ontario Ontario Convention Center, Ontario, California January 5, 2002 "Ours is a war not against a religion, not against the Muslim faith. But ours is a war against individuals who absolutely hate what America stands for, and hate the freedom of the Czech Republic. And therefore, we must work together to defend ourselves. And by remaining strong and united and tough, we'll prevail." Press Conference by President Bush and President Havel of Czech Republic Prague Castle, Prague, Czech Republic November 20, 2002 (http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ramadan/islam.html) ------- Yes yes - "either you are with us or you are against u.s" and "spring in Prague" and all...>:-) There is no doubt, that I disagree so very much with young Mr. Bush his friends, his rethoric - and his impatience. And I think King has an important non-violent attitude, which should be be given importance in ones daily life. But how many of you reading this are really honestly prepared to - act non-violent and follow a doctrine which is working in an opposite direction of the young Bush and his friends ? And how many of your friends are prepared ? I hope this is helpfull and acceptable...>:-) from M. Sufilight with peace... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 6:47 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World figures in history compared > Good to see that at least one person has some sense on this list. Why to > waste our precious love on the garbage of the world? Why a so called > *spiritual site* turned out to be a haven for political discussion, abuse > of other races and hate? Better off close it down. Love, Etzion > > Original Message: > ----------------- > From: Bart Lidofsky bartl@sprynet.com > Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 22:39:46 -0500 > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World figures in history compared > > > nama_sivam wrote: > > Hitler was a Beast > > But Bush is lunatic > > We can manage with a beast rather than lunatic > > What evidence do you have that Bush is a lunatic? Because he disagrees > with you? Is everybody who disagrees with you a lunatic? > > Bart Lidofsky > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From netemara888@yahoo.com Sat Mar 01 09:41:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 1 Mar 2003 17:41:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 11201 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2003 17:41:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2003 17:41:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2003 17:41:41 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.130] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2003 17:41:41 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 17:41:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World figures in history compared Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4807 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888 " X-Originating-IP: 64.12.96.139 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "nama_sivam" wrote: > Hitler was a Beast > But Bush is lunatic > We can manage with a beast rather than lunatic > > Hi nama, There is more than one way to see world leaders. I have made a study, an historical study of the leaders of the world, ancient and present. I have begun to trace Hitler's past lives his metamorphosis through those lives. And I assure you he is neither a beast nor a lunatic. He followed a pattern which was set up before he came on the world scene. And as I quoted on my website from The Tibetan that what we have is not destruction of human beings in WWII but the destruction of forms. There is a difference. There is a karmic difference. If you have read the many accounts of the holocaust as I have you will see that these were choices of suffering. Some chose to suffer and go through this karma fully and others died at the sight of it and others committed suicide. Suffering for past sins is a choice but it is a choice which can be put off to another time and it becomes future karmas. This is also the case with Hitler. He is not burning in hell, he has returned to a physical body just as many who were killed in the holocaust. That is the LAW. The less evolved have less control over how this law affects their life. As for Bush I had contact with him on the inner planes before he took office that summer in fact. I knew he would be elected. Then it played out as some sort of theft of the office. Yeah, the powers that be stole the office for him--if you want to look at it that way. Bush, now, may be the one who presides over countless loss and destruction of human forms if this war has a domino effect. Bush, like Hitler, knows exactly what he is doing, make no mistake about it. And if he does not, then those who are pulling his spiritual strings DO. I can't say more than this about it. Hitler's case was one of extremes in the ranks. They went too far and evil was about to overtake humanity and according to the Tibetan the Gods stepped in and had to help. You don't have to read or believe anything I've said. But the Truth is usually NOT what people THINK. Truth is created by those that KNOW. Sufi light has made some comments about linking this all to Theosophy. Well world leaders are linked to Theosophy due to the First Ray of power's role in the world which provides world leaders and royalty. Blavatsky herself was royalty and from royal families in many lives. Those who know and have studied her know that she had a short fuse and a host of flaws that are directly related to the first ray personality type. Sufi also mentioned that we should incorporate some of King's talimens in our thinking. He believed as Gandhi did in nonviolence and nondestruction. Well, in my understanding of creation there is going to be destruction to make way for the new. It is strange that Gandhi urged his followers be nonviolent and to get/take their freedom from the British Raj but they in turn vented all that anger toward the Brits and violence on each other and killed up and hacked up fellow countrymen, but did little violence to the British? This has also been seen among African Americans. They have done little to the white establishment but have reeked havoc on their own kind! That is not what the First Ray had in mind--that the little people should be killed, by their own kind. So is there no irony in the fact that they were both gunned down in an act of violence? I am not saying they did not say some good words but they must have taken a wrong turn somewhere. My own not so humble opinion about MKG and MLK is that they manifested Second Ray qualities in a First Ray job. And that is why the world powers do OWE them holidays and a great deal of thanks for saving their hides!!!!! Netemara > namaasivayam > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frank Reitemeyer > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:48 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World figures in history compared > > > > 4) "Adolf Hitler" has 10 letters. "George Bush" has 10 letters. > > > > Really? I count 11 for Adolf Hitler. > > > > 9) Hitler was known to eat food regularly. So is Bush. > > > > Hitler was a vegetarian and loved animals, Bush not. Hitler scheduled to > stop all animal sacrifice for the 1950's in order to live in harmony with > nature. For the same reason in 1934 an environment control program was > launched. > > Bush supports animal sacrifice, even food indexed as "k" (for kosher). > Bush destroys environment. > > Frank > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > From nama_sivam@hotmail.com Sat Mar 01 10:05:58 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nama_sivam@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 1 Mar 2003 18:05:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 17916 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2003 18:05:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2003 18:05:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (207.68.164.119) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2003 18:05:58 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 10:05:58 -0800 To: References: Subject: my experience Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:53:47 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2003 18:05:58.0107 (UTC) FILETIME=[35CC9AB0:01C2E01D] From: "nama_sivam" X-Originating-IP: [219.65.103.170] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=132641957 . MY EXPERIENCE I am Namasivayam, Age 48, working as a librarian in Tamil Nadu, India. I have been suffering illness like Blood Pressure Diabetic, Ulcer, Piles, Angina, and Anxiety Simultaneously for the past 10 years. Allopathic Medicines did not help too much and I could not recovered. My Cardiologist advised me to do Mediation. Four years ago, I learned Simplified KUNDALINI YOGA of VEDATHRI MAGARISHI OF Tamil Nada. With Simultaneous application of certain herbal plants as advised by one Siddha Yogi in Tamil Nadu I recovered completely from all my illness. I think a miracle has been done in favor of my health hence I felt that this experience must be shared with the ones who are also suffering from such kind of illness. That is why I have chosen this Internet media to share My Experiences. I have nursing four herbal Plants in My house and collect their seeds for free distribution. One of the Plant Namely OCIMUM SANCTUM (N.O LABIATAE) in Tamil it is called Karunthulasi. This Plant grown up in my house up to 8 feet. I have collected the Stem of the Plants and considered as having spiritual Values. Then as Usual I have distributed the stems of the Plant to those who are having faith in spiritual Experience. Recently again I met the above mentioned Siddha Yogi and shared my Experiences. He told me the usage of the stem of OCIMUM SANCTUM. As advised by him I cut the stem in to one-inch pieces During evening put a piece of stem into a glass of water. The next Morning I used to drink the water in empty stomachs I and My Family Members including my friends practicing this process for the past one month. We found that the problem in the stomach such as in digestion , Pain , Ulcer, Piles, loose Motion are cured to the great extent. The Yogi told me that a piece of stem can be used daily up to six months. He also told me that a person who is a prefers Vegetarian may get better result. I have taken the details of the four herbal plants from the dictionary of MEDICAL PLANTS BY DOCTOR N.K. SHANMUGAM PUBLISHED IN THE YEAR 1989 BY NAKEERAN PUBLISHERS CHENNAI 600 004. Hence I, there fore, request that this information may be circulated to all the members of our group.☼ HERBAL-1 CLITORIA TERNATEA (sangupuspam) (N.O. Papilionaceae) Habit: Climber Parts Used: Root, bark, seeds and leaves Constituents: Root bark contains Tannin and Resins. Seeds contain fixed Oil. Action: Fresh root is Apparent and Diuretic. Seeds are powerful Cathartic. Root bark is Demulcent, Diuretic and Laxative. Uses : This is used to treat indigestion, constipation, and arthritis and eye ailments. This is employed with advantage in cases of ascetic, Enlargement of the abdominal viscera, sore throat, skin diseases etc. This removes phlegm and the mucous in the throat through purgation. They are useful in splenetic disorders, intestinal worms, and neurosis of the thumb similar to cramp itching, sloughing ulcers black and white Spots in the body etc., Roots relieves the irritation of the bladder and urethra it is prescribed for gonorrhea, diabetes and other urinary disorders. Ground into powder and it is given for children in indigestion, fever and croup.☼ HERBAL- 2 OCIMUM SANCTUM (KARUNTHULASI) (N.O. Labiatae) Habit: Herb Parts Used: Whole plant Constituents : An essential oil Action : Similar to white variety. Uses : This is more powerful than white variety. This gives relief in cough, wheezing, boils poisonous bites and acts as an anthelmintic. Leaves are dried and powdered if sniffed up acts as parasiticide. To treat scorpion sting, nine leaves are given along with ripened coconut. This also cures hoarseness due to phlegm. Seeds rubbed along with cold water if taken internally cures cough and irritating Cough and gleet. ☼HERBAL-3 SOLANUM TRILOBATUM (Thuthuvalai) (N.O. Solanaceae) Habit: Climber Parts used : Whole plant Constituents: Leaves contain moisture, protein, minerals, and crude fiber And other Carbohydrates. Action: Cardiac, Tonic, Carminative, Stimulant, Expectorant, Nutritive, Diaphoretic and Aphrodisiac Uses: This is a kind of climber, which has thorns. The root And leaves are bitter and astringent. If taken as a vegetable, it relieves diseases of ear due to phlegm, asthma, indigestion, spermatorrhoea etc. The leaves are Roasted along with onion in gingerly oil. This is used to treat difficulty in breathing. The dosage for the first three days is once daily and again after three days continue the same dosage. The treatment for tuberculosis with this is as follows. The leaves are made into a paste with cow’s butter, 10gms of mixture of long pepper, celery and myrabalan. This paste is heated and 5 ml of the extract is used daily for 40 days. The flower paste with gee if taken along with curd acts as an aphrodisiac and improves mental power. Leaf is very effective against indigestion, spermatorrhoea and fatigue. To treat diseases of ear, ascetic, impaired digestion due to excessive heat, the leaves are used along with pulses. If used as ear drops, the leaf juices cures dullness of hearing, otorrhoea and other diseases of ear. Dried and powdered fruit, if taken internally cures phlegmatic disorders, rheumatism, constipation, gastric problems. The ripened fruit cures chest congestion chest pain. This is an antidote to snake poisons. The researchers are trying to make medicines from the leaves and stem of this plant.☼ HERBAL-4 OCIMUM BASILICUM (Thiruneetrupachai) (N.O. Labiatae) Habit: Shrub or herb Parts used: Whole plant Constituents: Leaves contain an essential oil, which contains new trepan. Action: Diaphoretic, Carminative, and Stimulant. Seeds are Mucilaginous, Demulcent, Aphrodisiac and Diuretic. Leaves are Fragrant and Aromatic. Juice of the plant is Anthelmintic. Root is Febrifuge. Uses: Flowers of this aromatic herb is white in color with Fragrant smell. Juice of the leaves cures ringworm infection and other skin Diseases. Leaf juice if rubbed reduces the pain in scorpion sting. Leaf juice if taken along with lukewarm water cures vomiting. The mixture of its leaves and sweet flag are ground and if applied reduces the pimples. Juice of the leaves if taken relieves labor pain and pain during Parturition. This also cures phlegmatic disorders and vomiting. Juice of the leaves mixed with cow’s milk if taken twice daily for Seven days, cures venereal diseases. Seeds and flowers are used as stimulant, diuretic and demulcent. Seeds If taken after childbirth, removes the pain. Seed indecoction cures urinary Diseases. Leaves are powdered and used as a snuff to eradicate the maggots from the nose. This also cures drowsiness. Seeds are used to cure piles and constipation. Sherbet made out of its seeds cures dysentery, gleet and cough. Decoction of the leaves if irrigated to the nose acts as parasitiside but produces anesthesia. By M.NAMASIVAYAM My e mail nama_sivam@hotmail.com From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Mar 01 14:00:00 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 1 Mar 2003 22:00:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 75442 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2003 22:00:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2003 22:00:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2003 21:59:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.175] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2003 21:59:59 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 21:59:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: imposition of laws or free choice? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1258 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.156.78.83 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Katinka Hesselink " wrote: > Hi Steve, > > As you perhaps know, the below argument is precisely why the Dutch > condone soft-drug use, and have a legalized abortion-practice. If that is so, then I applaud their good sense. Actually, abortion is legal here as well, and in the third trimester, which I believe is prohibited in Europe. But the Catholic church takes the position that it is the appropriate function of the state to enforce Catholic religious taboos on people who happen not to practice Catholicism. The argument goes something like this:y 1. The Catholic church says murder is a sin 2. The state says murder is a crime 3. Therefore, the basis of the legal policies of the state is Catholic theology 4. The Catholic church says abortion is a sin 5. The state exists to enforce Catholic taboos 6. Therefore abortions must be criminalized. The fallacy, which most people cannot see, is that (3) above is a non sequitur and (5) above which depends on (3) is a patently false statement. Having been deliberately confused about the secular basis for the law, they will soon be urging that everyone's lunch be searched on Fridays to see if anyone is eating tuna salad. From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Mar 01 16:38:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 00:38:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 19294 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 00:38:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 00:38:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 00:38:52 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-092-101.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.92.101] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18pHVE-0002V7-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 01 Mar 2003 16:38:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3E6152CE.1040504@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 19:39:42 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: imposition of laws or free choice? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > If that is so, then I applaud their good sense. Actually, abortion > is legal here as well, and in the third trimester, which I believe is > prohibited in Europe. But the Catholic church takes the position > that it is the appropriate function of the state to enforce Catholic > religious taboos on people who happen not to practice Catholicism. > The argument goes something like this:y > > 1. The Catholic church says murder is a sin > 2. The state says murder is a crime > 3. Therefore, the basis of the legal policies of the state is > Catholic theology > > 4. The Catholic church says abortion is a sin > 5. The state exists to enforce Catholic taboos > 6. Therefore abortions must be criminalized. Straw man argument. Invalid. Bart Lidofsky From nama_sivam@hotmail.com Sat Mar 01 19:38:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nama_sivam@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 03:38:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 31301 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 03:38:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 03:38:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (207.68.164.121) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 03:38:12 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 19:38:12 -0800 To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World figures in history compared Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:30:03 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2003 03:38:12.0394 (UTC) FILETIME=[26A108A0:01C2E06D] From: "nama_sivam" X-Originating-IP: [219.65.103.176] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=132641957 Thank you a lot plz visit my webs & group and then offer ur comment My web sites and Groups http://photos.yahoo.com/cosmic_travel http://travel.vsnl.com/meditation/index.html www.geocities.com/siva_sivam2001/meditation/1.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spiritualneed/ http://groups.msn.com/spiritualneed e mail id: nama_sivam@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 11:11 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World figures in history compared > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "nama_sivam" > wrote: > > Hitler was a Beast > > But Bush is lunatic > > We can manage with a beast rather than lunatic > > > > > Hi nama, > > There is more than one way to see world leaders. I have made a study, > an historical study of the leaders of the world, ancient and present. > I have begun to trace Hitler's past lives his metamorphosis through > those lives. And I assure you he is neither a beast nor a lunatic. He > followed a pattern which was set up before he came on the world > scene. And as I quoted on my website from The Tibetan that what we > have is not destruction of human beings in WWII but the destruction > of forms. There is a difference. There is a karmic difference. If you > have read the many accounts of the holocaust as I have you will see > that these were choices of suffering. Some chose to suffer and go > through this karma fully and others died at the sight of it and > others committed suicide. > > Suffering for past sins is a choice but it is a choice which can be > put off to another time and it becomes future karmas. This is also > the case with Hitler. He is not burning in hell, he has returned to a > physical body just as many who were killed in the holocaust. That is > the LAW. The less evolved have less control over how this law affects > their life. > > As for Bush I had contact with him on the inner planes before he took > office that summer in fact. I knew he would be elected. Then it > played out as some sort of theft of the office. Yeah, the powers that > be stole the office for him--if you want to look at it that way. > > Bush, now, may be the one who presides over countless loss and > destruction of human forms if this war has a domino effect. Bush, > like Hitler, knows exactly what he is doing, make no mistake about > it. And if he does not, then those who are pulling his spiritual > strings DO. I can't say more than this about it. Hitler's case was > one of extremes in the ranks. They went too far and evil was about to > overtake humanity and according to the Tibetan the Gods stepped in > and had to help. You don't have to read or believe anything I've > said. But the Truth is usually NOT what people THINK. Truth is > created by those that KNOW. > > Sufi light has made some comments about linking this all to > Theosophy. Well world leaders are linked to Theosophy due to the > First Ray of power's role in the world which provides world leaders > and royalty. Blavatsky herself was royalty and from royal families in > many lives. Those who know and have studied her know that she had a > short fuse and a host of flaws that are directly related to the first > ray personality type. Sufi also mentioned that we should incorporate > some of King's talimens in our thinking. He believed as Gandhi did in > nonviolence and nondestruction. Well, in my understanding of creation > there is going to be destruction to make way for the new. > > It is strange that Gandhi urged his followers be nonviolent and to > get/take their freedom from the British Raj but they in turn vented > all that anger toward the Brits and violence on each other and killed > up and hacked up fellow countrymen, but did little violence to the > British? This has also been seen among African Americans. They have > done little to the white establishment but have reeked havoc on their > own kind! That is not what the First Ray had in mind--that the little > people should be killed, by their own kind. So is there no irony in > the fact that they were both gunned down in an act of violence? I am > not saying they did not say some good words but they must have taken > a wrong turn somewhere. > > My own not so humble opinion about MKG and MLK is that they > manifested Second Ray qualities in a First Ray job. And that is why > the world powers do OWE them holidays and a great deal of thanks for > saving their hides!!!!! > > Netemara > > > namaasivayam > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Frank Reitemeyer > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:48 AM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World figures in history compared > > > > > > > 4) "Adolf Hitler" has 10 letters. "George Bush" has 10 letters. > > > > > > Really? I count 11 for Adolf Hitler. > > > > > > 9) Hitler was known to eat food regularly. So is Bush. > > > > > > Hitler was a vegetarian and loved animals, Bush not. Hitler > scheduled to > > stop all animal sacrifice for the 1950's in order to live in > harmony with > > nature. For the same reason in 1934 an environment control program > was > > launched. > > > Bush supports animal sacrifice, even food indexed as "k" (for > kosher). > > Bush destroys environment. > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From nama_sivam@hotmail.com Sat Mar 01 19:38:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: nama_sivam@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 03:38:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 69084 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 03:38:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 03:38:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (207.68.164.123) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 03:38:55 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 1 Mar 2003 19:38:55 -0800 To: References: <232810-2200336154724976@M2W034.mail2web.com> <001f01c2dfe1$422d5ce0$9b90a483@opasia.dk> Subject: Do you know Jesus Second---Gorbachev Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:53:42 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2003 03:38:55.0309 (UTC) FILETIME=[403557D0:01C2E06D] From: "nama_sivam" X-Originating-IP: [219.65.103.176] X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=132641957 Hello, You poor christians closing ur mind and forget ur Aathma. I hereby declare Jesus second --Gorbachev already come to the living planet. Afterall Jesus sacrifised his own flesh and blood for the sake of a limited audience. when compared to Gorbachev he sacrificed his Soviet system and communism for the sake of entire living things on Earth Dont worship either jesus or anybody Undestand the universal Law Honour our body and mind Be spiritual namasivayam From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Mar 01 20:07:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 04:07:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 73848 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 04:07:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 04:07:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 04:07:52 -0000 Received: from pool0015.cvx3-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.140.15] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18pKjw-0003c3-00; Sat, 01 Mar 2003 20:06:16 -0800 To: "AA-BN--Study" Subject: RE: War? conflict? Politics? nationalism? -- figures in history compared Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 20:01:00 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <001901c2e024$ea79a3c0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 March 1, 2003 Dear Etzion and Friends: You are again quite correct as I see it. May I make what I believe to be a Theosophical application ? Lets look at reincarnation based on Soul immortality. And not based purely on the feelings and inclinations of our personality ( Kama-Manas) of this life. If we were to apply the teachings of Theosophy what might we say ? We are immortal beings as Spiritual Souls ( Buddhi-Manas). We are THINKERS. We are not our bodies nor our cultures and religions. Those are imposed on us in childhood. But they are very limited in prospect. In fact if we have the good fortune to be able to study at close hand other cultures and religions, we will find similarities and dissimilarities. We can then probe our own and theirs with more impartiality, in an effort to secure that which is basic to all. We can thus make them universal, impersonal, impartial and develop understanding and tolerance We can then eliminate the irritating aspect of partial information or propaganda that is one-sided. No doubt we are daily bombarded with such. Need we succumb to that kind of mind-control? Or should we act independently and with a clear judgment as humans that can see what is happening, but, we ourselves are not involved ? So if this idea of the immortality of our Higher Ego (Buddhi-Manas) is correct, then we reincarnate with intervals of time between births of 1000 to 1500 years, that make our last embodiment a matter of history. We are detached from it and may look back objectively of what might have happened in the course of national development. We are no longer attached by passion or ignorance to the "political" or "governmental" principles of a past or present age. In future we will again reincarnate in other cultures. In any case lets look at the more recent past. We have lived in blissful ignorance of 99% of the ways in which other peoples live -- their cultures their beliefs, their lives and ways of looking at life. Are we to assume that our way of looking, or the way we are told to look are 100% correct? Or are going to impatiently, ignorantly and in haste adopt the general propaganda influence of "our country" or "our party," and proceed blindly among the blind, "to follow the leader? Who takes responsibility? Who receives the wounds or death ? WE DO. Our "leaders" of these days are safely way out of the way--half a world apart. Why don't they lead the troupes as Generals and Kings used to in olden times? Are they cowards? Or is their philosophy, and are their reasons flawed? or have they fund a large number of individuals who will blindly execute orders mindlessly ? I mean US. Consider also the unbalance of armaments. We have superior equipment, and one man is usually equal to 20 or more of the enemy if not a 100. In some cases flying high above the earth (or firing missiles from hundreds or thousands of miles away) we can unleash sudden, stupefying, irresponsible, and terrible torture on many innocent civilians who happen to be in our way. As time passes and munitions are devised that ever more terrible, we can see that the aftermath of all wars have escalated to include and make vulnerable the civilians -- who in older times were excluded. And our propagandists claim to be waging war to protect and enfranchise them. Very strange. Why are we suddenly interested in these maters? Were they not happening before? why was our nation or party so slow in preventing this crisis? why were we not informed earlier? We find ourselves suddenly confronted with a "do or die" situation. We are placed by our "leaders on a wartime basis ready to "fight for the right" as they define it. I(s our advice asked for? Are we receiving adequate advance explanations as to why we ought to go lour and kill totally unknown strangers for all, religious or political ideologies we know nothing or very little about ? What remains? Well I will stop now with my probing. Best wishes, Dallas ======================= -----Original Message----- From: Etzion B Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 11:01 AM To: Subject: Re: figures in history compared Dear Dallas, thank you. I was sorry to see that for some time, the atmosphere of the forum was on the right direction, and then it got broken over all this coarse discussions. Our Master warned us again and again not to be involved with political discussions. And I understand why: All these issues are above our heads, the Masters are in control of this world, and we better of focus ourselves on the unification of the spiritual family on earth. Love, Etzion From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Mar 01 22:07:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 06:07:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 85026 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 06:07:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 06:07:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 06:07:34 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id r.1d4.41671f8 (3964); Sun, 2 Mar 2003 01:07:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1d4.41671f8.2b92f99d@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 01:07:25 EST Subject: Worm Klez.E immunity - WARNING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 WARNING: The following note along with an attached file was sent to me using the return address of someone on this forum. (dalval14@earthlink.net) If you get this letter, DO NOT download the file. According to Mcaffey, this is a hoax mail and a trick to install the worm on Windows machines. For a complete rundown on this worm, see: http://vil.mcafee.com/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=99455 ----- original message-------- "Klez.E is the most common world-wide spreading worm. It's very dangerous by corrupting your files. Because of its very smart stealth and anti-anti-virus technic,most common AV software can't detect or clean it.We developed this free immunity tool to defeat the malicious virus. You only need to run this tool once,and then Klez will never come into your PC. NOTE: Because this tool acts as a fake Klez to fool the real worm,some AV monitor maybe cry when you run it. If so,Ignore the warning,and select 'continue'. If you have any question,please mail to me. " From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Mar 02 03:18:24 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 11:18:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 65289 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 11:18:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 11:18:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 11:18:24 -0000 Received: from user-2init64.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.116.196] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18pRU4-0004Js-00; Sun, 02 Mar 2003 03:18:21 -0800 To: "AA-BN--Study" Cc: "AA-Dal" Subject: RE: Worm Klez.E immunity - WARNING Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 03:13:09 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dear Leon: dalval14 @ earthlink.net is my E-mail address. All mail in and out is virus screened by NORTON SEMANTEC and I re-checked for viruses and was told my files are clean. Also I have sent no files with "attachments." I have no idea how this has happened. Dal -----Original Message----- From: LeonMaurer@aol.com [mailto:LeonMaurer@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 10:07 PM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Worm Klez.E immunity - WARNING WARNING: The following note along with an attached file was sent to me using the return address of someone on this forum. (dalval14@earthlink.net) If you get this letter, DO NOT download the file. According to Mcaffey, this is a hoax mail and a trick to install the worm on Windows machines. For a complete rundown on this worm, see: http://vil.mcafee.com/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=99455 ----- original message-------- "Klez.E is the most common world-wide spreading worm. It's very dangerous by corrupting your files. Because of its very smart stealth and anti-anti-virus technic,most common AV software can't detect or clean it.We developed this free immunity tool to defeat the malicious virus. You only need to run this tool once,and then Klez will never come into your PC. NOTE: Because this tool acts as a fake Klez to fool the real worm,some AV monitor maybe cry when you run it. If so,Ignore the warning,and select 'continue'. If you have any question,please mail to me. " --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@earthlink.net List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-14759P@list.vnet.net From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Mar 02 05:43:48 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 13:43:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 78629 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 13:43:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 13:43:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 13:43:47 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Mar 2003 13:43:47 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 13:43:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: imposition of laws or free choice? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3E6152CE.1040504@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 258 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.156.77.214 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Straw man argument. Invalid. > > Bart Lidofsky Which one are you referring to? I assume you would prefer that the Catholic church not impose their theology on Jews by legal force. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Mar 02 08:05:19 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 16:05:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 56029 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 16:05:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 16:05:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 16:05:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Mar 2003 16:05:18 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:05:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: figures in history compared Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2361 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.157.117.57 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "netemara888 " wrote: > There is a karmic difference. If you > have read the many accounts of the holocaust as I have you will see > that these were choices of suffering. Some chose to suffer and go > through this karma fully and others died at the sight of it and > others committed suicide. It might be of interest to Theosophists that there is a rabbi in Minneapolis who has studied the matter of holocaust victims being reincarnated and published two books on the subject, both published by the ARE Press: BEYOND THE ASHES and FROM ASHES TO HEALING. After he published the first of these I wrote to him (not having seen his book but having heard about it) and told him if he was collecting any more stories he could have mine. He wrote back and said he thought my experiences were real because they "fit the profile" and that when I read his book I would see what he meant. I had no idea what he was talking about, but got his book (BEYOND THE ASHES) and was astonished at all the points he identified which I never realized were connected. Anyone would recognize bad dreams and flashbacks as part of it, but there were numerous other matters as well, such as respiratory problems, etc. One common point was bad dreams of being persecuted in Spain during the Inquisition campaign against the Maranos. (He mentioned this in his letter but I do not recall whether it was in the book or not.) If those dreams have any relation to historical experience, being murdered by Nazis, unpleasant as it was, was a walk in the park for their victims compared to being slowly tortured by the Catholic church and then burned to death when they were about to expire anyway. It makes one a believer in separation of church and state. Anyway, his book is quite good and, I am persuaded, valid. That said, I have a sense that the victims did not "choose" to be victims in the sense that you suggest. People who get into fatal auto accidents might have made some bad choices which led to their demise (getting out of bed in the morning being the first one) but I doubt they "chose" to die in a car wreck. Or a concentration camp. Nobody knows what Hitler's fate was, but I find it depressing to contemplate. I intuitively suspect he did not come out well. From netemara888@yahoo.com Sun Mar 02 10:07:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: netemara888@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 18:07:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 15091 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 18:07:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 18:07:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 18:07:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.141] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Mar 2003 18:07:19 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 18:07:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: figures in history compared Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3836 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "netemara888 " X-Originating-IP: 152.163.188.196 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=100827629 X-Yahoo-Profile: netemara888 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Stubbs " wrote: > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "netemara888 " > wrote: > > There is a karmic difference. If you > > have read the many accounts of the holocaust as I have you will see > > that these were choices of suffering. Some chose to suffer and go > > through this karma fully and others died at the sight of it and > > others committed suicide. > > It might be of interest to Theosophists that there is a rabbi in > Minneapolis who has studied the matter of holocaust victims being > reincarnated and published two books on the subject, both published > by the ARE Press: BEYOND THE ASHES and FROM ASHES TO HEALING. After > he published the first of these I wrote to him (not having seen his > book but having heard about it) and told him if he was collecting any > more stories he could have mine. He wrote back and said he thought > my experiences were real because they "fit the profile" and that when > I read his book I would see what he meant. I had no idea what he was > talking about, but got his book (BEYOND THE ASHES) and was astonished > at all the points he identified which I never realized were > connected. Anyone would recognize bad dreams and flashbacks as part > of it, but there were numerous other matters as well, such as > respiratory problems, etc. One common point was bad dreams of being > persecuted in Spain during the Inquisition campaign against the > Maranos. (He mentioned this in his letter but I do not recall > whether it was in the book or not.) If those dreams have any > relation to historical experience, being murdered by Nazis, > unpleasant as it was, was a walk in the park for their victims > compared to being slowly tortured by the Catholic church and then > burned to death when they were about to expire anyway. It makes one > a believer in separation of church and state. Anyway, his book is > quite good and, I am persuaded, valid. > > That said, I have a sense that the victims did not "choose" to be > victims in the sense that you suggest. People who get into fatal > auto accidents might have made some bad choices which led to their > demise (getting out of bed in the morning being the first one) but I > doubt they "chose" to die in a car wreck. Or a concentration camp. > > Nobody knows what Hitler's fate was, but I find it depressing to > contemplate. I intuitively suspect he did not come out well. Thanks for your input Steve. But few people ever agree with me. Why? Because they simply do not have my state of consciousness. So I do not fault you for not seeing the point. However, I feel that you made my point for me. The soul does CHOOSE to die in whatever way it in fact does die. These things are set up and predestined. That my dear is the meaning of destiny. It has been set and seen. So while I know myself not to have been a Spanish persecuted Jew or one who died in the Holocaust and none of my family I do know of my other lives which touched the Jewish people. This was the karma of those who went through it. Part of this type of dreadful karma is that it makes such a DEEP groove in the heart and mind that one will never forget that they have LIVED before. Don't you see the beauty of it spiritually? So I must disagree with you. We choose. We have limited free will. There is NO other way that 5 million Jews would have marched, some knowingly, to their deaths!!! They went as sheep to slaughter (not all I know). So there is NO doubt in my mind. I do know Hitler's fate, as I have studied his past lives and this puts the spotlight on his present and future. It is NOT what it seems. Again thanks for your sharing. We grow through sharing. Netemara From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Mar 02 10:58:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 18:58:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 30992 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 18:58:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 18:58:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 18:58:01 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a4909b.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.144.155]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id BE31B47FF9A for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 19:57:59 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002101c2e0ec$729b9de0$9b90a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World figures in history compared Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 19:49:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Netemara and all of you, Thanks for sharing your views in the below. My humble and well meant views are: Netemara wrote in the below: "Sufi also mentioned that we should incorporate some of King's talimens in our thinking. He believed as Gandhi did in nonviolence and nondestruction. Well, in my understanding of creation there is going to be destruction to make way for the new. " My answer: Well, well - I didn't say "should" did I ? And what kind of - "destruction" - are you talking about ? You might have a superior intelligence (..>:-) ...), but I just don't understand your above comment. Maybe you would like to expand on this - and on what your views on the so-called "hybrid offshots" are ? Remember the quote I made in the earliere email on Martin Luther King Jr. Here it is just one more time: "Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on earth, our loyalties must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; no nation can live alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to have war in this world. Now the judgement of God is upon us, and we must either learn to live together as brothers or we are all going to perish together as fools." Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 December 1967 at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga. Feel free to comment or do your best... from M. Sufilight with peace and love...and all... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 6:41 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World figures in history compared > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "nama_sivam" > wrote: > > Hitler was a Beast > > But Bush is lunatic > > We can manage with a beast rather than lunatic > > > > > Hi nama, > > There is more than one way to see world leaders. I have made a study, > an historical study of the leaders of the world, ancient and present. > I have begun to trace Hitler's past lives his metamorphosis through > those lives. And I assure you he is neither a beast nor a lunatic. He > followed a pattern which was set up before he came on the world > scene. And as I quoted on my website from The Tibetan that what we > have is not destruction of human beings in WWII but the destruction > of forms. There is a difference. There is a karmic difference. If you > have read the many accounts of the holocaust as I have you will see > that these were choices of suffering. Some chose to suffer and go > through this karma fully and others died at the sight of it and > others committed suicide. > > Suffering for past sins is a choice but it is a choice which can be > put off to another time and it becomes future karmas. This is also > the case with Hitler. He is not burning in hell, he has returned to a > physical body just as many who were killed in the holocaust. That is > the LAW. The less evolved have less control over how this law affects > their life. > > As for Bush I had contact with him on the inner planes before he took > office that summer in fact. I knew he would be elected. Then it > played out as some sort of theft of the office. Yeah, the powers that > be stole the office for him--if you want to look at it that way. > > Bush, now, may be the one who presides over countless loss and > destruction of human forms if this war has a domino effect. Bush, > like Hitler, knows exactly what he is doing, make no mistake about > it. And if he does not, then those who are pulling his spiritual > strings DO. I can't say more than this about it. Hitler's case was > one of extremes in the ranks. They went too far and evil was about to > overtake humanity and according to the Tibetan the Gods stepped in > and had to help. You don't have to read or believe anything I've > said. But the Truth is usually NOT what people THINK. Truth is > created by those that KNOW. > > Sufi light has made some comments about linking this all to > Theosophy. Well world leaders are linked to Theosophy due to the > First Ray of power's role in the world which provides world leaders > and royalty. Blavatsky herself was royalty and from royal families in > many lives. Those who know and have studied her know that she had a > short fuse and a host of flaws that are directly related to the first > ray personality type. Sufi also mentioned that we should incorporate > some of King's talimens in our thinking. He believed as Gandhi did in > nonviolence and nondestruction. Well, in my understanding of creation > there is going to be destruction to make way for the new. > > It is strange that Gandhi urged his followers be nonviolent and to > get/take their freedom from the British Raj but they in turn vented > all that anger toward the Brits and violence on each other and killed > up and hacked up fellow countrymen, but did little violence to the > British? This has also been seen among African Americans. They have > done little to the white establishment but have reeked havoc on their > own kind! That is not what the First Ray had in mind--that the little > people should be killed, by their own kind. So is there no irony in > the fact that they were both gunned down in an act of violence? I am > not saying they did not say some good words but they must have taken > a wrong turn somewhere. > > My own not so humble opinion about MKG and MLK is that they > manifested Second Ray qualities in a First Ray job. And that is why > the world powers do OWE them holidays and a great deal of thanks for > saving their hides!!!!! > > Netemara > > > namaasivayam > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Frank Reitemeyer > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:48 AM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World figures in history compared > > > > > > > 4) "Adolf Hitler" has 10 letters. "George Bush" has 10 letters. > > > > > > Really? I count 11 for Adolf Hitler. > > > > > > 9) Hitler was known to eat food regularly. So is Bush. > > > > > > Hitler was a vegetarian and loved animals, Bush not. Hitler > scheduled to > > stop all animal sacrifice for the 1950's in order to live in > harmony with > > nature. For the same reason in 1934 an environment control program > was > > launched. > > > Bush supports animal sacrifice, even food indexed as "k" (for > kosher). > > Bush destroys environment. > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Mar 02 11:27:01 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 19:27:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 29292 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 19:27:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 19:27:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 19:27:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Mar 2003 19:27:01 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 19:26:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: figures in history compared Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1507 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.157.114.15 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "netemara888 " wrote: > few people ever agree with me. Why? > Because they simply do not have my state of consciousness. Well, at least no one can accuse you of false modesty. > So while I know > myself not to have been a Spanish persecuted Jew or one who died in > the Holocaust and none of my family There were so many victims it is not unusual to find someone who was. I have met several Theosophists in years past. It would not be quite accurate to say that they disagree with you, but rather that they have a different perspective. If one person knows what ice cream tastes like and another does not, they may have different ideas about the matter, but disagreement would not be an accurate characterization of the difference. > There is NO other way that 5 million Jews would have marched, some > knowingly, to their deaths!!! I am not arguing with you, but would suggest that you read Jean- Francois Steiner's book TREBLINKA, which deals tather extensively with the reasons why that happened. It is very instructive. One could just as easily ask how millions of Russian soldiers were persuaded to die in the snow in defense of a foul dictator like Stalin. These things do happen, and the reasons make interesting historical inquiry. > I do know Hitler's > fate Some time when you get a chance, please share that with us. Does he manage a yahoo web site? Is he chancellor of a major university? From bartl@sprynet.com Sun Mar 02 15:37:38 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 23:37:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 81047 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 23:37:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 23:37:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 23:37:37 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-092-101.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.92.101] helo=sprynet.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18pd1V-0000rb-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Mar 2003 15:37:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3E6295CC.1030904@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 18:37:48 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: imposition of laws or free choice? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > >> Straw man argument. Invalid. You are giving arguments that have nothing to do with the actual arguments given, and then knocking down the phony arguments. Fact is, if you read Roe vs. Wade carefully, the issue is not at all simple. It is not even about a right to abortion. It is about rights in conflict, and determining which right is greater, or, more precisely, which right is the government required to recognize. The fetus has a right to live which is something less than or equal to the right of a child who has already been born. The mother has a right to have the fetus removed which is less than or equal to her right to an emergency appendectomy. In the case of abortion, the mother is being used as a human life support machine for the fetus. There is no case where a person is required to be a human life support machine (donating blood or organs, for example) to someone who has already been born. But there is also the case of responsibility, which would go against abortion. The Supreme Court in Roe vs. Wade essentially said that the state was legally incapable of making the decision until the 3rd trimester. (note that this also means that, should a reliable method of fetus transplant or artificial wombs be developed, the right of abortion will no longer be the same thing as right to kill the fetus). There is also a difference between a religious and a philosophical position; you represent the position of the Catholic Church as religious, when it is in fact a philosophical one (when does life begin? At what point does a fetus become a human being?). Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sun Mar 02 15:58:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 2 Mar 2003 23:58:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 30917 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2003 23:58:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Mar 2003 23:58:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2003 23:58:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.142] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Mar 2003 23:58:19 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 23:58:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: imposition of laws or free choice? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3E6295CC.1030904@sprynet.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2483 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 67.29.254.189 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > You are giving arguments that have nothing to do with the actual > arguments given, and then knocking down the phony arguments. The argument I was critiquing is the one normally given by abortion opponents. You are absolutely right that it is phony. I have yet to hear anyone publicly discuss the legal issues in Roe v. Wade, > There is also a difference between a religious and a philosophical > position; you represent the position of the Catholic Church as > religious, when it is in fact a philosophical one (when does life begin? The question is unanswerable, which is why I submit the better basis is the Utilitarian principle of "the greatest good for the greatest number." Abortion is a 2,000 year old issue (they had it in ancient Rome) and ther is good reason to believe that all we can hope to do is deprive women of safe and competently performed abortions. We cannot deprive them of abortions themselves. Therefore, to criminalize abortion merely means a lot of women die. The religious opponents of abortion emphasize the moral aspect, about which there is no reasonable doubt. I do not see how any reasonable person could dispute that abortion is morally wrong. However, from the aforementioned Utilitarian perspective, morality and conscience should be private matters and not affairs of state. There are of course instances in which morality and the Utilitarian standard cionverge, as, for example, in proscribing the kind of behavior Robert Blake is currently accused of. It is most regrettable, but they seem to diverge in the case of abortion. I am altogether in favor of abortion opponents promoting their views (which I happen to share) by means of reasoned persuasion, and am opposed to them promoting them with bombs, shotguns, and legislative action. It is not the appropriate function of the state to enforce religious views, even when they are self-evidently valid. The Catholic church is a religious, and not a philosophical organization, and Thomism is a religious and not a philosophical system. It is admirable in many ways, but still religious. One of the great gifts left to us by our Founding Fathers is separation of church and state. To preserve that, the state must base its decisions on secular considerations which are rational and can be agreed upon by reasonable men without resort to faith or supernatural revelation. From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Mar 02 18:33:21 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 3 Mar 2003 02:33:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 21335 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2003 02:33:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2003 02:33:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.98) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2003 02:33:20 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id r.40.2c65b89b (4340) for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 21:33:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <40.2c65b89b.2b9418e6@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 21:33:10 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Worm Klez.E immunity - WARNING To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Dear Dallas, The virus-worm attached letter I received might not have come from you (unless your antivirus program has not yet been updated with the Klez.E worm detection code and your e-mail program is infected without your knowledge). Although, your address was used as the return address. If your PC mail program is infected, this worm actually sits there permanently, and besides doing other damage, it sends out replicas of itself (such as the letter I received) to everyone on your mailing list. The message and attachment, however, seemed not to be consistent with your previous mailings. That's why I checked it out. I also found out that some spammers are able to use our home addresses for their e-mail return addresses. They pick these addresses up from monitoring e-mail lists and chat rooms. It's a security problem on the Internet, and with certain mail programs -- that hackers have been able to penetrate. This could be the case, if your e-mail program was not infected. I had previously received some spam letters with my own home address listed as the return address in the "From" box. That's what made me suspicious when the virus containing letter came in along with its strange message and with your return address on it. Consequently, it good advice to be cautious of all mail that comes from people you know from chat rooms or e-mail lists that look like spam and or have unsolicited attachments. Even if you do download an attachment from someone you know, make sure it is checked by an anti virus program that has been updated with the latest virus/trojan horse/worm detection information. Such updates should be downloaded from the web monthly from your virus program vendor (unless the program has an automatic update feature built in). In your case, Dallas, I suggest you check with Norton/Semantec and find out if your anti virus program is able to detect the Klez.E worm. If not, I recommend you download their latest antivirus updates. For instructions related to this worm, go to: http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.klez.e@mm.html (BTW, this worm does not infect Macintosh computers.) Leon In a message dated 03/02/03 7:18:41 AM, dalval14@earthlink.net writes: >Dear Leon: > >dalval14 @ earthlink.net is my E-mail address. > >All mail in and out is virus screened by NORTON SEMANTEC and I >re-checked for viruses and was told my files are clean. > >Also I have sent no files with "attachments." > >I have no idea how this has happened. > >Dal -----Original Message----- From: LeonMaurer@aol.com [mailto:LeonMaurer@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 10:07 PM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Worm Klez.E immunity - WARNING WARNING: The following note along with an attached file was sent to me using the return address of someone on this forum. (dalval14@earthlink.net) If you get this letter, DO NOT download the file. According to Mcaffey, this is a hoax mail and a trick to install the worm on Windows machines. For a complete rundown on this worm, see: http://vil.mcafee.com/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=99455 ----- original message-------- "Klez.E is the most common world-wide spreading worm. It's very dangerous by corrupting your files. Because of its very smart stealth and anti-anti-virus technicmost common AV software can't detect or clean it. We developed this free immunity tool to defeat the malicious virus. You only need to run this tool once,and then Klez will never come into your PC. NOTE: Because this tool acts as a fake Klez to fool the real worm,some AV monitor maybe cry when you run it. If so,Ignore the warning,and select 'continue'. If you have any question,please mail to me. " --- From atman3030@attbi.com Sun Mar 02 22:38:51 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: atman3030@attbi.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 3 Mar 2003 06:38:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 20147 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2003 06:38:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2003 06:38:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO rwcrmhc51.attbi.com) (204.127.198.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2003 06:38:50 -0000 Received: from rwcrwbc55 (rwcrwbc55.attbi.com[204.127.198.44]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51) with SMTP id <2003030306384905100ipbeoe>; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 06:38:49 +0000 Received: from [12.230.167.52] by rwcrwbc55; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 06:38:49 +0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 06:38:49 +0000 X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Nov 5 2002) X-Authenticated-Sender: YXRtYW4zMDMwQGF0dGJpLmNvbQ== From: atman3030@attbi.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=139727463 X-Yahoo-Profile: Atman30 May I join the group ? Thank you From micforster@yahoo.com Sun Mar 02 23:09:07 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 3 Mar 2003 07:09:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 71492 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2003 07:09:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2003 07:09:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13407.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.65) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2003 07:09:06 -0000 Message-ID: <20030303070906.75220.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.60.241.180] by web13407.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 02 Mar 2003 23:09:06 PST Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 23:09:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World (unknown) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster if you can find a spider with nine eyes before the next full moon you may enter Eldon's gates and join us in the garden of truth. i'll be the one smoking a pipe under the coolabah tree.... --- atman3030@attbi.com wrote: > May I join the group ? > > Thank you > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From leonmaurer@aol.com Mon Mar 03 02:37:35 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 3 Mar 2003 10:37:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 21867 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2003 10:37:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2003 10:37:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2003 10:37:34 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id r.55.3a245136 (1320); Mon, 3 Mar 2003 05:37:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <55.3a245136.2b948a65@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 05:37:25 EST Subject: Consciousness science symposium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 HPB's prophesy almost fulfilled? Thought some of you might be interested i= n=20 how far academic science has come toward approaching verification of the=20 Secret Doctrine. Let us know if any theosophist might be attending this=20 conference, Be interesting to hear a report. LHM **************************************** 13th Mind and Brain Symposium =E2=80=93 The Science of Consciousness Saturday, March 8th 2003, 8.45AM - 5.30PM, The Institute of Psychiatry, London Highly recommended for psychologists, medical professionals, physicists and students, this year's conference is devoted to an examination of the curren= t state of consciousness research and how this can be expected to evolve in t= he future. KEY SPEAKER: PROFESSOR AMIT GOSWAMI, author of The Self-Aware Universe, wil= l=20 highlight evidence from recent research in cognitive psychology, biology, parapsychology and quantum physics which demonstrates that the essential spiritual unity underlying all of reality is a fact which can be experimentally verified. Since the first Mind Brain Symposia twelve years ago there has been both a major shift in our understanding of consciousness, together with an acceptance by the scientific community that research into conscious experience is now well up the scientific agenda. Our understanding of brain mechanisms is beginning to show in broad outline the structures which underpin the formation of mind. But nowhere is there any indication of how we should tackle, from a scientific viewpoint, the difficulty that we have in translating neural cod= es into subjective experience. Parapsychology is now much more accepted and mi= nd beyond the brain is now a subject of serious scientific study. Prayer and distant healing are on the scientific agenda. This conference will emphasise the likely way forward in our understanding = of consciousness. FULL PROGRAMME DETAILS AND BOOKINGS: Conference Secretary, 42 Herne Hill, London SE24 9QP Tel: ++44 (0)207 738 5188. Email: peter_fenwick@compuserve.com Web: www.scimednet.org COST: =C2=A365 (including tea and coffee). Credits given for Continuing Professional Development. MEDIA ENQUIRIES, INTERVIEWS: Jayne Warren, ++44 (0) 1275 464 525 Email: JWComms@aol.com SPEAKERS Professor Amit Goswami was professor of physics for 34 years at the University of Oregon, USA. He is a pioneer of science within consciousness and is the author of numerous research papers on the subject. He is the author of nine books including Quantum Mechanics,The Self-Aware Universe,Th= e Visionary Window, and Physics of the Soul. Dr. Peter Fenwick is Emeritus Consultant Neuropsychiatrist, Maudsley Hospit= al and Honorary Consultant Neurophysiologist, St.Thomas=E2=80=99s Hospital. He is = a Vice-President of the Scientific and Medical Network and President of the Horizon Research Foundation. Dr. Geraint Rees is a research scientist at the Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience at University College, London. Anthony Freeman has been managing editor of the Journal of Consciousness Studies since its launch in 1994. He lectures and writes on both theology and consciousness studies. Professor Max Velmans has a Personal Chair in Psychology at Goldsmiths, University of London and has around 70 publications on consciousness. Professor Robert Morris holds the Koestler Chair of Parapsychology in the School of Philosophy, Psychology and Language Sciences at the University of Edinburgh and has held the Chair since 1985. David Lorimer is Programme Director of the Scientific and Medical Network a= nd Vice-President of the Horizon Foundation and the Swedenborg Society. --=20 Keith Sutherland JKB SUTHERLAND, PUBLISHER JOURNAL OF CONSCIOUSNESS STUDIES HISTORY OF POLITICAL THOUGHT CYBERNETICS AND HUMAN KNOWING POLIS IMPRINT ACADEMIC, PO BOX 200, EXETER EX5 5YX, UK TEL: +44 1392 841600. Fax: 841478. EMAIL: keith@imprint.co.uk WWW: http://www.imprint-academic.com Please note new PO Box (above) Street address: Robins Nest, Chapel Road, Brampford Speke EX5 5HE, UK From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Mar 03 03:07:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 3 Mar 2003 11:07:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 49798 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2003 11:07:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2003 11:07:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2003 11:07:42 -0000 Received: from pool0065.cvx17-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.232.65] helo=earthlink) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18pnnG-0002iO-00; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 03:07:38 -0800 To: "AA-Theos-I" Cc: "Atman" Subject: FW: (unknown) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 03:02:10 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 -----Original Message----- From: atman3030@attbi.com [mailto:atman3030@attbi.com] Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 10:39 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: (unknown) May I join the group ? Thank you From micforster@yahoo.com Mon Mar 03 03:18:56 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 3 Mar 2003 11:18:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 55381 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2003 11:18:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2003 11:18:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13402.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.60) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2003 11:18:55 -0000 Message-ID: <20030303111855.57952.qmail@web13402.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.60.5.220] by web13402.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 03:18:55 PST Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 03:18:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World Consciousness science symposium To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <55.3a245136.2b948a65@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster A bit of synchronicity for you: I received this email from Leon which mentions a Peter Fenwick. The email in my inbox after Leon's is from my friend, Peter Fenwick. And this morning I received a spam email from, you guessed it, a Peter Fenwick (this one was actually spelt Pete Fenwick - I thought it was my friend at first but it wasn't). --- leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > HPB's prophesy almost fulfilled? Thought some of > you might be interested in > how far academic science has come toward approaching > verification of the > Secret Doctrine. Let us know if any theosophist > might be attending this > conference, Be interesting to hear a report. LHM > > **************************************** > 13th Mind and Brain Symposium – The Science of > Consciousness > > Saturday, March 8th 2003, 8.45AM - 5.30PM, The > Institute of Psychiatry, > > London > > > Highly recommended for psychologists, medical > professionals, physicists and > > students, this year's conference is devoted to an > examination of the current > > state of consciousness research and how this can be > expected to evolve in the > > future. > > > KEY SPEAKER: PROFESSOR AMIT GOSWAMI, author of The > Self-Aware Universe, will > highlight evidence from recent research in cognitive > psychology, biology, > > parapsychology and quantum physics which > demonstrates that the essential > > spiritual unity underlying all of reality is a fact > which can be > > experimentally verified. > > > Since the first Mind Brain Symposia twelve years ago > there has been both a > > major shift in our understanding of consciousness, > together with an > > acceptance by the scientific community that research > into conscious > > experience is now well up the scientific agenda. Our > understanding of brain > > mechanisms is beginning to show in broad outline the > structures which > > underpin the formation of mind. > > > But nowhere is there any indication of how we should > tackle, from a > > scientific viewpoint, the difficulty that we have in > translating neural codes > > into subjective experience. Parapsychology is now > much more accepted and mind > > beyond the brain is now a subject of serious > scientific study. Prayer and > > distant healing are on the scientific agenda. > > > This conference will emphasise the likely way > forward in our understanding of > > consciousness. > > > FULL PROGRAMME DETAILS AND BOOKINGS: > > Conference Secretary, 42 Herne Hill, London SE24 9QP > Tel: ++44 (0)207 738 > > 5188. Email: peter_fenwick@compuserve.com Web: > www.scimednet.org > > COST: £65 (including tea and coffee). Credits given > for Continuing > > Professional Development. > > > MEDIA ENQUIRIES, INTERVIEWS: Jayne Warren, ++44 (0) > 1275 464 525 Email: > HREF="http://">JWComms@aol.com > > > SPEAKERS > > Professor Amit Goswami was professor of physics for > 34 years at the > > University of Oregon, USA. He is a pioneer of > science within consciousness > > and is the author of numerous research papers on the > subject. He is the > > author of nine books including Quantum Mechanics,The > Self-Aware Universe,The > > Visionary Window, and Physics of the > > Soul. > > Dr. Peter Fenwick is Emeritus Consultant > Neuropsychiatrist, Maudsley Hospital > > and > > Honorary Consultant Neurophysiologist, St.Thomas’s > Hospital. He is a > > Vice-President of > > the Scientific and Medical Network and President of > the Horizon Research > > Foundation. > > Dr. Geraint Rees is a research scientist at the > Institute of Cognitive > > Neuroscience at > > University College, London. > > Anthony Freeman has been managing editor of the > Journal of Consciousness > > Studies > > since its launch in 1994. He lectures and writes on > both theology and > > consciousness studies. > > Professor Max Velmans has a Personal Chair in > Psychology at Goldsmiths, > > University of London and has around 70 publications > on consciousness. > > Professor Robert Morris holds the Koestler Chair of > Parapsychology in the > > School > > of Philosophy, Psychology and Language Sciences at > the University of > > Edinburgh and > > has held the Chair since 1985. > > David Lorimer is Programme Director of the > Scientific and Medical Network and > > Vice-President of the Horizon Foundation and the > Swedenborg Society. > > > -- > > Keith Sutherland > > > JKB SUTHERLAND, > PUBLISHER > > JOURNAL OF CONSCIOUSNESS STUDIES HISTORY > OF POLITICAL THOUGHT > > CYBERNETICS AND HUMAN KNOWING > POLIS > > IMPRINT ACADEMIC, PO BOX 200, EXETER > EX5 5YX, UK > > TEL: +44 1392 841600. Fax: 841478. EMAIL: > keith@imprint.co.uk > > > WWW: > http://www.imprint-academic.com > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Mar 03 08:30:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 3 Mar 2003 16:30:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 18443 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2003 16:30:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2003 16:30:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2003 16:30:11 -0000 Received: from [216.154.45.198] (helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18pspM-0000zH-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:30:08 +0000 Message-ID: <3E63849B.7D8403@idirect.ca> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:36:43 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Bill and God and ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=7.3 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn re Bill and God Here's an extract from Dallas's Feb 25 post: <<"God" -- Be-ness>> Speculatively, Mauri PS ... ^:-) ... Seems that being "more specific" about this "God" topic tends to be kind of tricky, generally, for some people, (and for me it is), but Theosophy seems to have a few things to say about it? From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Mar 03 09:20:29 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 3 Mar 2003 17:20:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 76381 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2003 17:20:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2003 17:20:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2003 17:20:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Mar 2003 17:20:28 -0000 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:20:27 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Er the Pamphylian Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 19413 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 209.245.237.148 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Someone might find the appended story interesting. It comes from Benhamin Jowett's public domain translation of Plato's REPUBLIC (book 10) and is the story of an ancient man who allegedly had a Near Death Experience after being mortally wounded on the battlefield. The ancients collected and studied stories like this, as the only rational way to determine if there is any consciousness after death, and, if so, what is its nature. Plutarch recorded two lengthy stories of this type as did others. To what extent Plato repeats the story accurately and to what extent he uses it as a vehicle for his own ideas is impossible to say. Some of the elements of this story have been reported by modern commentators who claim also to have had Near Death Experiences and who were almost certainly not well read enough to be familiar with Plato. He agrees with netemara that souls about to be born "choose" their fate, but with some interesting twists. Once a fate is chosen, he says, the soul cannot escape it. He also seems to doubt that tyrants like Hitler escape the consequences of their deeds. Anyway, read and decide for yourself if there is anything to it. "Well, I said, I will tell you a tale; not one of the tales which Odysseus tells to the hero Alcinous, yet this too is a tale of a hero, Er the son of Armenius, a Pamphylian by birth. He was slain in battle, and ten days afterwards, when the bodies of the dead were taken up already in a state of corruption, his body was found unaffected by decay, and carried away home to be buried. And on the twelfth day, as he was lying on the funeral pile, he returned to life and told them what he had seen in the other world. He said that when his soul left the body he went on a journey with a great company, and that they came to a mysterious place at which there were two openings in the earth; they were near together, and over against them were two other openings in the heaven above. In the intermediate space there were judges seated, who commanded the just, after they had given judgment on them and had bound their sentences in front of them, to ascend by the heavenly way on the right hand; and in like manner the unjust were bidden by them to descend by the lower way on the left hand; these also bore the symbols of their deeds, but fastened on their backs. He drew near, and they told him that he was to be the messenger who would carry the report of the other world to men, and they bade him hear and see all that was to be heard and seen in that place. Then he beheld and saw on one side the souls departing at either opening of heaven and earth when sentence had been given on them; and at the two other openings other souls, some ascending out of the earth dusty and worn with travel, some descending out of heaven clean and bright. And arriving ever and anon they seemed to have come from a long journey, and they went forth with gladness into the meadow, where they encamped as at a festival; and those who knew one another embraced and conversed, the souls which came from earth curiously enquiring about the things above, and the souls which came from heaven about the things beneath. And they told one another of what had happened by the way, those from below weeping and sorrowing at the remembrance of the things which they had endured and seen in their journey beneath the earth (now the journey lasted a thousand years), while those from above were describing heavenly delights and visions of inconceivable beauty. The Story, Glaucon, would take too long to tell; but the sum was this: ??He said that for every wrong which they had done to any one they suffered tenfold; or once in a hundred years ??such being reckoned to be the length of man's life, and the penalty being thus paid ten times in a thousand years. If, for example, there were any who had been the cause of many deaths, or had betrayed or enslaved cities or armies, or been guilty of any other evil behaviour, for each and all of their offences they received punishment ten times over, and the rewards of beneficence and justice and holiness were in the same proportion. I need hardly repeat what he said concerning young children dying almost as soon as they were born. Of piety and impiety to gods and parents, and of murderers, there were retributions other and greater far which he described. He mentioned that he was present when one of the spirits asked another, 'Where is Ardiaeus the Great?' (Now this Ardiaeus lived a thousand years before the time of Er: he had been the tyrant of some city of Pamphylia, and had murdered his aged father and his elder brother, and was said to have committed many other abominable crimes.) The answer of the other spirit was: 'He comes not hither and will never come. And this,' said he, 'was one of the dreadful sights which we ourselves witnessed. We were at the mouth of the cavern, and, having completed all our experiences, were about to reascend, when of a sudden Ardiaeus appeared and several others, most of whom were tyrants; and there were also besides the tyrants private individuals who had been great criminals: they were just, as they fancied, about to return into the upper world, but the mouth, instead of admitting them, gave a roar, whenever any of these incurable sinners or some one who had not been sufficiently punished tried to ascend; and then wild men of fiery aspect, who were standing by and heard the sound, seized and carried them off; and Ardiaeus and others they bound head and foot and hand, and threw them down and flayed them with scourges, and dragged them along the road at the side, carding them on thorns like wool, and declaring to the passers?by what were their crimes, and that they were being taken away to be cast into hell.' And of all the many terrors which they had endured, he said that there was none like the terror which each of them felt at that moment, lest they should hear the voice; and when there was silence, one by one they ascended with exceeding joy. These, said Er, were the penalties and retributions, and there were blessings as great. "Now when the spirits which were in the meadow had tarried seven days, on the eighth they were obliged to proceed on their journey, and, on the fourth day after, he said that they came to a place where they could see from above a line of light, straight as a column, extending right through the whole heaven and through the earth, in colour resembling the rainbow, only brighter and purer; another day's journey brought them to the place, and there, in the midst of the light, they saw the ends of the chains of heaven let down from above: for this light is the belt of heaven, and holds together the circle of the universe, like the under?girders of a trireme. From these ends is extended the spindle of Necessity, on which all the revolutions turn. The shaft and hook of this spindle are made of steel, and the whorl is made partly of steel and also partly of other materials. Now the whorl is in form like the whorl used on earth; and the description of it implied that there is one large hollow whorl which is quite scooped out, and into this is fitted another lesser one, and another, and another, and four others, making eight in all, like vessels which fit into one another; the whorls show their edges on the upper side, and on their lower side all together form one continuous whorl. This is pierced by the spindle, which is driven home through the centre of the eighth. The first and outermost whorl has the rim broadest, and the seven inner whorls are narrower, in the following proportions ??the sixth is next to the first in size, the fourth next to the sixth; then comes the eighth; the seventh is fifth, the fifth is sixth, the third is seventh, last and eighth comes the second. The largest (of fixed stars) is spangled, and the seventh (or sun) is brightest; the eighth (or moon) coloured by the reflected light of the seventh; the second and fifth (Saturn and Mercury) are in colour like one another, and yellower than the preceding; the third (Venus) has the whitest light; the fourth (Mars) is reddish; the sixth (Jupiter) is in whiteness second. Now the whole spindle has the same motion; but, as the whole revolves in one direction, the seven inner circles move slowly in the other, and of these the swiftest is the eighth; next in swiftness are the seventh, sixth, and fifth, which move together; third in swiftness appeared to move according to the law of this reversed motion the fourth; the third appeared fourth and the second fifth. The spindle turns on the knees of Necessity; and on the upper surface of each circle is a siren, who goes round with them, hymning a single tone or note. The eight together form one harmony; and round about, at equal intervals, there is another band, three in number, each sitting upon her throne: these are the Fates, daughters of Necessity, who are clothed in white robes and have chaplets upon their heads, Lachesis and Clotho and Atropos, who accompany with their voices the harmony of the sirens ?? Lachesis singing of the past, Clotho of the present, Atropos of the future; Clotho from time to time assisting with a touch of her right hand the revolution of the outer circle of the whorl or spindle, and Atropos with her left hand touching and guiding the inner ones, and Lachesis laying hold of either in turn, first with one hand and then with the other. "When Er and the spirits arrived, their duty was to go at once to Lachesis; but first of all there came a prophet who arranged them in order; then he took from the knees of Lachesis lots and samples of lives, and having mounted a high pulpit, spoke as follows: 'Hear the word of Lachesis, the daughter of Necessity. Mortal souls, behold a new cycle of life and mortality. Your genius will not be allotted to you, but you choose your genius; and let him who draws the first lot have the first choice, and the life which he chooses shall be his destiny. Virtue is free, and as a man honours or dishonours her he will have more or less of her; the responsibility is with the chooser ??God is justified.' When the Interpreter had thus spoken he scattered lots indifferently among them all, and each of them took up the lot which fell near him, all but Er himself (he was not allowed), and each as he took his lot perceived the number which he had obtained. Then the Interpreter placed on the ground before them the samples of lives; and there were many more lives than the souls present, and they were of all sorts. There were lives of every animal and of man in every condition. And there were tyrannies among them, some lasting out the tyrant's life, others which broke off in the middle and came to an end in poverty and exile and beggary; and there were lives of famous men, some who were famous for their form and beauty as well as for their strength and success in games, or, again, for their birth and the qualities of their ancestors; and some who were the reverse of famous for the opposite qualities. And of women likewise; there was not, however, any definite character them, because the soul, when choosing a new life, must of necessity become different. But there was every other quality, and the all mingled with one another, and also with elements of wealth and poverty, and disease and health; and there were mean states also. And here, my dear Glaucon, is the supreme peril of our human state; and therefore the utmost care should be taken. Let each one of us leave every other kind of knowledge and seek and follow one thing only, if peradventure he may be able to learn and may find some one who will make him able to learn and discern between good and evil, and so to choose always and everywhere the better life as he has opportunity. He should consider the bearing of all these things which have been mentioned severally and collectively upon virtue; he should know what the effect of beauty is when combined with poverty or wealth in a particular soul, and what are the good and evil consequences of noble and humble birth, of private and public station, of strength and weakness, of cleverness and dullness, and of all the soul, and the operation of them when conjoined; he will then look at the nature of the soul, and from the consideration of all these qualities he will be able to determine which is the better and which is the worse; and so he will choose, giving the name of evil to the life which will make his soul more unjust, and good to the life which will make his soul more just; all else he will disregard. For we have seen and know that this is the best choice both in life and after death. A man must take with him into the world below an adamantine faith in truth and right, that there too he may be undazzled by the desire of wealth or the other allurements of evil, lest, coming upon tyrannies and similar villainies, he do irremediable wrongs to others and suffer yet worse himself; but let him know how to choose the mean and avoid the extremes on either side, as far as possible, not only in this life but in all that which is to come. For this is the way of happiness. "And according to the report of the messenger from the other world this was what the prophet said at the time: 'Even for the last comer, if he chooses wisely and will live diligently, there is appointed a happy and not undesirable existence. Let not him who chooses first be careless, and let not the last despair.' And when he had spoken, he who had the first choice came forward and in a moment chose the greatest tyranny; his mind having been darkened by folly and sensuality, he had not thought out the whole matter before he chose, and did not at first sight perceive that he was fated, among other evils, to devour his own children. But when he had time to reflect, and saw what was in the lot, he began to beat his breast and lament over his choice, forgetting the proclamation of the prophet; for, instead of throwing the blame of his misfortune on himself, he accused chance and the gods, and everything rather than himself. Now he was one of those who came from heaven, and in a former life had dwelt in a well?ordered State, but his virtue was a matter of habit only, and he had no philosophy. And it was true of others who were similarly overtaken, that the greater number of them came from heaven and therefore they had never been schooled by trial, whereas the pilgrims who came from earth, having themselves suffered and seen others suffer, were not in a hurry to choose. And owing to this inexperience of theirs, and also because the lot was a chance, many of the souls exchanged a good destiny for an evil or an evil for a good. For if a man had always on his arrival in this world dedicated himself from the first to sound philosophy, and had been moderately fortunate in the number of the lot, he might, as the messenger reported, be happy here, and also his journey to another life and return to this, instead of being rough and underground, would be smooth and heavenly. Most curious, he said, was the spectacle ??sad and laughable and strange; for the choice of the souls was in most cases based on their experience of a previous life. There he saw the soul which had once been Orpheus choosing the life of a swan out of enmity to the race of women, hating to be born of a woman because they had been his murderers; he beheld also the soul of Thamyras choosing the life of a nightingale; birds, on the other hand, like the swan and other musicians, wanting to be men. The soul which obtained the twentieth lot chose the life of a lion, and this was the soul of Ajax the son of Telamon, who would not be a man, remembering the injustice which was done him the judgment about the arms. The next was Agamemnon, who took the life of an eagle, because, like Ajax, he hated human nature by reason of his sufferings. About the middle came the lot of Atalanta; she, seeing the great fame of an athlete, was unable to resist the temptation: and after her there followed the soul of Epeus the son of Panopeus passing into the nature of a woman cunning in the arts; and far away among the last who chose, the soul of the jester Thersites was putting on the form of a monkey. There came also the soul of Odysseus having yet to make a choice, and his lot happened to be the last of them all. Now the recollection of former tolls had disenchanted him of ambition, and he went about for a considerable time in search of the life of a private man who had no cares; he had some difficulty in finding this, which was lying about and had been neglected by everybody else; and when he saw it, he said that he would have done the had his lot been first instead of last, and that he was delighted to have it. And not only did men pass into animals, but I must also mention that there were animals tame and wild who changed into one another and into corresponding human natures ??the good into the gentle and the evil into the savage, in all sorts of combinations. "All the souls had now chosen their lives, and they went in the order of their choice to Lachesis, who sent with them the genius whom they had severally chosen, to be the guardian of their lives and the fulfiller of the choice: this genius led the souls first to Clotho, and drew them within the revolution of the spindle impelled by her hand, thus ratifying the destiny of each; and then, when they were fastened to this, carried them to Atropos, who spun the threads and made them irreversible, whence without turning round they passed beneath the throne of Necessity; and when they had all passed, they marched on in a scorching heat to the plain of Forgetfulness, which was a barren waste destitute of trees and verdure; and then towards evening they encamped by the river of Unmindfulness, whose water no vessel can hold; of this they were all obliged to drink a certain quantity, and those who were not saved by wisdom drank more than was necessary; and each one as he drank forgot all things. Now after they had gone to rest, about the middle of the night there was a thunderstorm and earthquake, and then in an instant they were driven upwards in all manner of ways to their birth, like stars shooting. He himself was hindered from drinking the water. But in what manner or by what means he returned to the body he could not say; only, in the morning, awaking suddenly, he found himself lying on the pyre. "And thus, Glaucon, the tale has been saved and has not perished, and will save us if we are obedient to the word spoken; and we shall pass safely over the river of Forgetfulness and our soul will not be defiled. Wherefore my counsel is that we hold fast ever to the heavenly way and follow after justice and virtue always, considering that the soul is immortal and able to endure every sort of good and every sort of evil. Thus shall we live dear to one another and to the gods, both while remaining here and when, like conquerors in the games who go round to gather gifts, we receive our reward. And it shall be well with us both in this life and in the pilgrimage of a thousand years which we have been describing. From bill_meredith@earthlink.net Mon Mar 03 09:31:55 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bill_meredith@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 3 Mar 2003 17:31:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 5336 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2003 17:31:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Mar 2003 17:31:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.189) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 2003 17:31:55 -0000 Received: from user-38ld1un.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.135.215] helo=SkateTowne) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ptn7-0006bk-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 09:31:54 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c2e1aa$bd01b1d0$d78756d1@SkateTowne> To: References: <3E63849B.7D8403@idirect.ca> Subject: Re: Theos-World re Bill and God and Mauri... Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:31:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-ELNK-Trace: aeda9581e82e22886a67a78112ff260e74bf435c0eb9d47848fda1d6cec3a7d0cd35db6a5e01a573b20ef6fb392ac611350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c From: "Bill Meredith" Reply-To: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=131669976 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mauri" To: Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 11:36 AM Subject: Theos-World re Bill and God and ... > re Bill and God > > Here's an extract from Dallas's Feb 25 post: > > <<"God" -- Be-ness>> > > Speculatively, > Mauri > > PS ... ^:-) ... Seems that being "more specific" > about this "God" topic tends to be kind of tricky, > generally, for some people, (and for me it is), but > Theosophy seems to have a few things to say about > it? > All being is for us an interpretation. It is always a perversion of our knowledge when the content of an interpretation is looked upon as reality itself. As Luther said: that which you hold to, upon which you stake your existence, that is truly your God. Man cannot help taking something as an absolute, whether willingly and knowlingly, whether accidentally and fitfully or resolutely and steadfastly. Man has a kind of home in the absolute. He cannot evade it. In that home he must live. I quote that to say this: Maybe for a few on this list, Theosophy has become their God and HPB and the Masters have become the personifications of that God. I agree with Karl Jaspers that we do not experience eternal being outside of that which is empirically manifested to us in time. Since that which is for us must be manifested in the temporality of the world, there can be no direct knowledge of God and existence. There can only be faith. To live by God does not mean to base oneself on calculable knowledge but to live as though we staked our existence on the assumption that God is. Hence I must recognize not only that I do not know God but even that I do not know whether I believe. Faith is no possession. It confers no secure knowledge, but it gives certaintly in the practice of life. Now Mauri what is your God? If you don't want to answer I understand completely. I simply ask that you examine why you continue to ask me questions for which you are unwilling or unable to offer your own answers. regards, Bill > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From wry1111@earthlink.net Tue Mar 04 00:11:18 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 4 Mar 2003 08:11:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 57334 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2003 08:11:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Mar 2003 08:11:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.116) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 2003 08:11:18 -0000 Received: from user-38lc0h3.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.2.35] helo=idapingala) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18q7W8-0005j3-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 04 Mar 2003 00:11:16 -0800 Message-ID: <001601c2e225$7f114220$230256d1@idapingala> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: figures in history compared Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 00:10:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 10:07 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: figures in history compared Hi. Re your message below, you have said, "We grow through sharing" so I will share this with you. I have found your recent messages to be repulsive, but maybe it is just some kind of a reactive process going on within me. In this particular message, though, you have somehow managed to convey your "state." I believe there is something seemingly outside which is looking at history and calls itself a soul, but what it really is is a configuration of THOUGHT, which is a function, as is FEELING, SENSATION, MOVEMENT etc. of the whole organism. and, because this complex of thought is so predominent and with so little purpose, these functions are not BALANCED. This makes for disorder, and is not the same as having the little SEED grow up or be RAISED into a mature soul so that there is no lag in the speed of the various functioning in relationship to each other and the oscillation frequencies or tempos are harmonized in such a way that there is a different kind of orientation. The fact that there is a lag is sad. Because something (thought) is mechanically going too fast in one place, something else (emotion?) is going too slow in another place. You will have to find out for yourself. The Jews you are talking about who marched to their deaths are, at this point in time, a picture in your mind. You do not need to think about them or Hilter any longer, as this will not help you. You might as well be reading magazines and picking your toes, in my opinion, and actually, due to the necrophiliac quality of your musing, which seems to be habitual, (you like to think about Hitler and the Jews getting murdered, right?), it might be better and healthier to read magazines and pick your toes. I know this probably sounds harsh, but it is not meant to be a personal attack. I have read all this Hitler crap from you and Frank and cannot conceive of any practical value of focusing in this direction, except that there is for each of you a necrophiliac kind of satisfaction. Hitler was, of course, a result of causes and conditions that surrounded him, as are you, so it is pointless to be angry with you, but because someone who has both pondered and practiced as well as stood genuine watch (on rare occasion) has the verbal skill and the guts to point out what should be obvious, we can pivot right NOW in such a way that very many people might be affected. It is all a matter of ORIENTATION. Let's turn in the right direction so that there can be begin to be an active force, right here on the internet which can affect many. As far as being being CONSCIOUS, this is different than being in a "state of consciousness." It is an extremely important distinction to make. You can talk about Hitller and the Jews and their karma till hell freezes over and it will not in any way help you or any human being decrystalize destructive karmic patterns, because such talk is not Work, is it? I notice that the number of subscribers to this list is going up rapidly and also that the volume of messages has been going down. In my opinion, this is extremely favorable. When there are five messages or so a day, give or take, participants who occasionally read on the list page or who take their messages by digests which they barely skim through can now begin to receive their messages by individual email, and the quality of this group will become more personal and less disorderly. In this way a certain atmosphere can be created that can function as a reserve where people can gather a little bit of group strength to help them make an individual effort that is a little difficult in that it takes a certain kind of courage and backbone which we all are probably lacking in to a certain degree. As we feedback our efforts and come with real inner questions to share, a natural ordering will emerge that can lead to a renewal and a flowering which will surely affect your theosophy movement. I will do my best to help this happen, but I am only one little part. If some people on here do not consider this to pertain to theosophy, maybe you are wrong. Bring your friends to this list now, if you know anyone who might benefit, as a major shift, due to the efforts of many, seems to be happening right now, and such a window is sort of sacred in that it opens us to our own great motherlode of undiscovered potential with its streaming benefits. I have thought about these Hitler messages a lot before responding, as I want to contribute something that does not lead to further disorder. You WILL forget that you have lived before, if you even have, as there is no beauty or purity of "soul" in a thought. Real beauty is outside and beyond thought and memory, and is the not petty thing you try to make of it. So, also, is sorrow. You trivialize and what can only be grieved, and there is no way to know for how long. Wry I> Thanks for your input Steve. But few people ever agree with me. Why? > Because they simply do not have my state of consciousness. So I do > not fault you for not seeing the point. However, I feel that you made > my point for me. The soul does CHOOSE to die in whatever way it in > fact does die. These things are set up and predestined. That my dear > is the meaning of destiny. It has been set and seen. So while I know > myself not to have been a Spanish persecuted Jew or one who died in > the Holocaust and none of my family I do know of my other lives which > touched the Jewish people. This was the karma of those who went > through it. Part of this type of dreadful karma is that it makes such > a DEEP groove in the heart and mind that one will never forget that > they have LIVED before. Don't you see the beauty of it spiritually? > > So I must disagree with you. We choose. We have limited free will. > There is NO other way that 5 million Jews would have marched, some > knowingly, to their deaths!!! They went as sheep to slaughter (not > all I know). So there is NO doubt in my mind. I do know Hitler's > fate, as I have studied his past lives and this puts the spotlight on > his present and future. It is NOT what it seems. > > Again thanks for your sharing. We grow through sharing. > > Netemara > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Mar 04 02:59:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_4); 4 Mar 2003 10:59:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 15942 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2003 10:59:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Mar 2003 10:59:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 2003 10:59:38 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.21.) id b.74.2b83f98c (4362); Tue, 4 Mar 2003 05:59:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <74.2b83f98c.2b95e115@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 05:59:33 EST Subject: Re: your command request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 02/22/03 8:21:08 PM, lyris-admin@list.vnet.net writes: PPS I'm wondering what Leon might think about that paragraph that starts with <> Since my professors told me the same thing when I was an engineering student at Ga Tech way back in the 40s, I fully agree with Gerald about chaos when seen from the point of view of the physics of the metric universe. But, since chaos became a serious scientific study during the 70-80s and ended up as the science of simplicity/complexity (which forms, in conjunction with multidimensional fractal and topological mathematics, the basis of Superstring/M-brane theories) -- a realization has came about that within chaos there is a fundamental order, just as there is order within a fundamental chaos. As HPB said the beginning of phenomenal space is, "a chaos to the eye but an order to the intuitive mind." This is because, between the zero-point and the first manifest unit of measurement or first relative orderly motion in conditioned space -- e.g., the first triple cycle Monad of the initial "light" ray (analogous to a photon particle, or "quanta") -- there is a gap, or void, ("vacuum" in scientific terms). But that void -- being the origin of both the zero-point force or spinergy that emanated that centrifugal field forming the initial "positive" spirtual light particle or spiritual monad, as well as the equal and opposite centripetal force field that counterbalances it (This is analogous to the "negative" fundamental particle or what science today calls "dark Matter") cannot be non existent, or "nothing" -- since, it also represents "Absolute space" -- out of which all seven fields of consciousness emanate, including our physical space-time. Therefore, it is, in essence, both one and many, zero and one, empty and full... And thus, a complete chaos of zero-point energy that must continually oscillate randomly between those opposite extremes... While only a small part of it becomes the infinitude of chaotic photonic "light" monads -- that steps down through the 7-fold coadunate but not consubstantial fields of me