From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Wed Jan 01 00:44:08 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 08:44:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 15727 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 08:44:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 08:44:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 08:44:01 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.166] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2003 08:44:01 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 08:44:01 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Article on Esoteric and Science News Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 273 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.169 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn By the way there is a new article on Esoteric and Science News titled: "There is nothing of the woman in me." Madame Blavatsky , by Siv Ellen Kraft, who wrote a Dr. Dissertation on the same subject, see: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/ From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Jan 01 07:32:53 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 15:32:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 2313 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 15:32:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 15:32:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 15:32:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2003 15:32:52 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 15:32:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Buddhaghosa Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3712 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.156.79.214 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs HPB claimed to have been "initiated" into certain yoga practices which were never described in detail. Her "clairvoyance" was develop using mirror gazing exercises, probably based on Randolph's book SEERSHIP. But there are other exercises which are referred to in an article she wrote entitled "Practical Occultism." The article gives an inaccurate description of the system referred to, but the exercises can be identified, nonetheless. This identification is less iffy than the identification of the worldly identity of the masters, and I have never seen this information published anywhere, so list historians take note. This seemingly lifts another historical veil. The following is a part of the "Practical Occultism" article: "A page is given from the 'private rules,' with which every instructor in the East is furnished. The few passages which follow are chosen from a great number and explained in brackets." "The place selected for receiving instruction must be a spot calculated not to distract the mind, and filled with 'influence- evolving' (magnetic) objects. The five sacred colours gathered in a circle must be there among other things. The place must be free from any malignant influences hanging about in the air. " "[The place must be set apart, and used for no other purpose. The five 'sacred colours' are the prismatic hues arranged in a certain way, as these colours are very magnetic. By 'malignant influences' are meant any disturbances through strife, quarrels, bad feelings, etc., as these are said to impress themselves immediately on the astral light, i.e., in the atmosphere of the place, and to hang 'about in the air.' This first condition seems easy enough to accomplish, yet??on further consideration, it is one of the most difficult ones to obtain.]" That passage is not completely accurate, but it can easily be recognized as a description of the "kasina" meditation in Buddhaghosa's book VISUDDHIMAGGA. The five colors are not arranged in a circle, but there are five circles of different colors. There are also elemental "kasinas" in which one concentrates upon the "elements" (earth, air, water, etc.) There is also an endless description of the proper place to do the meditation, etc., all of which can be recognized in the above passage. The purpose of this is to somehow lead one to enlightenment, but claims have been made that working with the elemental kasinas also lead to certain unusual mental abilities. Such claims are made in the PATISAMBHIDA, which is translated and published in part by Conze in his BUDDHIST SCRIPTURES, and claims by modern practitioners regarding results they have got can be found in Kornfield's LIVING BUDDHIST MASTERS. The VISUDDHIMAGGA can also be found referenced by Olcott in his BUDDHIST CATECHISM. It has been translated into English and published in various editions under the names PATH OF PURIFICATION and PATH OF PURITY. So if Blavatsky's claims that she was initiated into and practiced some form of yoga are true (i.e., if she did not merely analyze the subject intellectually as her modern followers do) this is one of the sources from which the practice she followed can be found. Whether she was in fact a practitioner or a theorizer is yet unclear. If the stories told about her are true, they constitute a prima facie case that she was a practitioner. It is clear that she was familiar with yoga techniques whether she used them or not. Piecing together how her "phenomena" were done and determining if anyone else ever got a similar result with similar methods is useful in solving the historical problem of whether or not the phenomena were real. From alpha@dircon.co.uk Wed Jan 01 07:36:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: alpha@dircon.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 15:36:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 45825 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 15:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 15:36:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailhost1.dircon.co.uk) (194.112.32.65) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 15:36:51 -0000 Received: from default (th-en138-210.pool.dircon.co.uk [194.112.55.210]) by mailhost1.dircon.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id 0CC46576F4 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:36:49 +0000 (GMT) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Tacky tactics-Practical Theosophy Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:39:05 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: "Tony" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=42271540 X-Yahoo-Profile: univ7x7 Hello Paul WOW! That really is some mail. What happened? It is helpful actually. By tacky I mean sticky, gluey, difficult to move about in, lacking air, claustrophobic. <<>> Yes, these words you write describe YOU very well. And then there is that list of personalities you then went on to post, where you categorise others on Theos-World with your comments (because you had nothing better to do whilst waiting for your guests). Those comments are comments about you. Or did you somehow think they were about them? So, regardless of all those other people, the LISTS of people and organizations you harbour in your mind - and regardless of how "bad" they/we/or some of us may be === it is possible to turn around and look at yourself/ourselves and examine your/our own faults WITHOUT going on about the faults of others. No one is saying that is easy, but it is PRACTISING THEOSOPHY. If no one else on this list practised Theosophy, it would still be no excuse for either of us not to. If YOU do it you won't have to make up lists and be chained to those thoughts any more. You won't have to go on about other people on this and other lists, which you have just so well demonstrated that you at present do. You will be more concerned about your faults than theirs. And you will also be more concerned for other people. The only good reason, if there be a good reason, for making up a list of other peoples faults, is so that it is possible to see our own faults. The faults you see in others Paul, are your faults. *It stands to reason.* So in answer to YOUR INVITATION, that is why I think YOU (rather than people), do that. Cheers for a better New Year, and I mean it! Tony. -----Original Message----- From: kpauljohnson [mailto:kpauljohnson@yahoo.com] Sent: 31 December 2002 2:02 pm To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Tacky tactics --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" Good morning, The post quoted below uses some tactics that I've seen repeatedly on various fora, used by Baha'is, Cayceites, Theosophists, Fourth Way disciples. Sometimes I've been the target, more often the observer of its use on others. In every case the dynamic is this: one person is a true believer, the other a dissident or skeptic. The former expresses disdain for the latter, not by saying outright "you, X, are beneath me so I look down on you and denounce you" but rather by making sneering, dismissive comments to others *about* the skeptic or dissident without naming him or her. Such comments offer a tiny fig leaf of plausible deniability-- if the target objects, their authors can turn around and say "I wasn't referring to you and the fact that you imagine I was just proves you're paranoid." I will never forget one Baha'i who made a point by point attack on a post I made and then furiously insisted that he had never read it or anything else I ever wrote! (And never would lower himself to do so.) Having seen "the treatment" from several folks here, I would guess that the message is "I'm so disdainful of you that I refuse to address you or refer to you by name, yet my disdain requires expression via indirect sneering comments." But hereby welcome and invite explanations from anyone about why people do that. Seems like passive aggressive stuff to me; throw a rock, hide your hand. Tony (whom I know only from this post) wrote: wrote: > Hi Terrie > > Your e-mails! Rather like the sun peeping out from behind they dark black > clouds. What dark clouds? > You initially wrote: > << a worldly, enlightening and unbias resourse AND that what she has > written is in fact a tremendous accumulation of reason and wisdom AND > quite a respectable gift to have accomplished/offered on up - it's an > inspiration, even today.>>> > > Alas, what seemed a reasonable statement, "Seemed" is not absolute but relative. So it seemed to *you*, Tony, but not to me. has turned into a rather tacky > conversation about bias. Tacky meaning in poor taste? Why is it tacky to discuss bias? Rather than sneering at the conversation, perhaps you might enlighten us with non-tacky comments about bias? Like you, biased is not something I would use > about or attribute to H.P.B. Why not? She was a vigorous polemicist with a very definite agenda. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but let's not pretend it's not the case. We do know she had tremendous powers of > discrimination:), and where you might well use discrimination, another might > use bias. The books you read may be to do with your discriminatory powers, > rather than with bias. The sun view is different to the black clouds view. That sort of comment is summarized by a very simple phrase, "holier than thou." Why not get down off your high horse and engage the topic as an equal among equals? The Theosophical movement is very poorly served IMO by the tactics its adherents use, congratulating one another with their superiority to benighted skeptics. I'd advise saving that for private email because it makes a bad appearance for your "side." > Bias is below the belt, discrimination above the head. Roget is not law. Descriptive, not prescriptive. Terrie doesn't have to use the word the way it is generally used, but will be better understood if she does so. > I have read some Olcott, and been to several talks given by Krishnamurti. > It is nice to dip into lots of different things, but there is no particular > reason why anyone should feel the need to read Krishnamurti from the > Theosophical point of view. No particular reason? That's rather sweeping. How about the fact that the maximum membership of the TS was during its promotion of him as the World Teacher? And that his profile is now much higher than the Society that nurtured him and which he then rejected? Olcott did a wonderful job as an > administrator, and also did mesmeric healing and other great things. > But H.P.B. was the Occultist, was of the inner side, so to put it. Here in > London it is warm, and the happy waitress serving the coffees to us outside > in Soho was from Mauritius, and was demanding to see some snow. It is always > supposed to snow at Christmas here, but rarely does. There is something > magical about snow. Is it something to do with the fact that every > snowflake is a geometrical shape. It is very like H.P.B's writings. They > are full of symbols and geometrical shapes, sounds and colours, pictures, > and so on. As snow flakes are so beautiful, think by how much more so are > the thought flakes in "The Secret Doctrine" and "The Voice of the Silence," > and All works of That occult or hidden Nature. > > Keep shining > Tony > Shiny New Year to you! Paul, no dark cloud > -----Original Message----- > From: thalprin [mailto:thalprin@y...] > Sent: 30 December 2002 11:13 pm > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: Unbiased > > > Hi again Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From mhart@idirect.ca Wed Jan 01 08:00:43 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 16:00:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 15350 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 16:00:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 16:00:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 16:00:43 -0000 Received: from [216.154.45.97] (helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18TlIN-0004Ce-00; Wed, 01 Jan 2003 16:00:39 +0000 Message-ID: <3E131179.3D6F0951@idirect.ca> Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 11:04:09 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , Theosophy Study List Subject: re "ABC Leon," "blinds" as "attempts to explain"... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.8 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Leon, guys, I've had some "second thoughts," speculations about what might be called attempts to explain about "what is really going on" in "reality." In other words, I'm referring to "attempts to explain" as in: to "exoterize" in dualistic/mainstream (if mayavic) "somewhat-understandable" terms. Considering that HPB used blinds in the attempt to bring certain teachings to a "more understandable" level (ie, like all of us, in her writings/teachings she had to resort to the use of the exoteric/dualistic medium of thought/reality that comprises our mainstream worldview, obviously enough?), and so, if those blinds could be seen for what they really were, essentially: symptomatic of the contraints and guidelines of the kind of apparent every-day reality that manas is basically grounded in (which, as I see it, is mayavic duality), then (of course?) by that kind of extension, inter-connection ANY explanation about "essential or esoteric Theosophy" (as I see it) tends to get (is?) compromised by that kind of medium of expression, and so in that sense would tend to be ("is," "essentially"?) a blind, in a core sense, in its entirety. In other words, if, in this world, the ONLY POSSIBLE way to present or or think about any kind of Theosophic view is by way of concessions to the mayavic principles involved within this duality world, then ... Doesn't that kind of scenario ring a bell? In other words, Leon, while your ABC's, etc, may elicit much adulation from various sources, for various reasons, I don't see any way how the "you of your ABC's" (that mayavic/apparent "version of you") can transcend that dualistic/mayavic medium for as long as "you" (a karmic variable appearing to be "you") continue to use that "you of your ABC's" medium of expression/reality that you're confined to (or "prefer" to be confined to?) within this duality world. Speculatively, Mauri From info@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Jan 01 08:07:37 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 16:07:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 15743 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 16:07:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 16:07:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 16:07:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.146] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2003 16:07:33 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 16:07:33 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and Science News" website Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1733 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dear Bhakti Ananda Goswami, Since you are announcing on Theos-Talk an article about HPB published on the "Esoteric and Science News" website at , can you tell us who is the CURRENT editor of that website? In early to mid Nov. 2002, the editor of that site was still Brian Muehlebach, who had mysteriously taken over the editorship from Brigitte Muehlegger in Aug. 2002. But soon after Eldon Tucker "booted" Brian from Theos-Talk in the latter part of Nov., Brian's name as editor disappeared COMPLETELY from that website and Raphael Vishanu (Gregory Tillett should remember that name) became the editor. Go to the very bottom of the page at and see the link to "Editor". This link goes to http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/pic.html A week ago this link gave pictures apparently of R.V. Now the link is dead. But notice the pictures and the caption right above this "Editor" link. The caption reads: "This morning yours editor went out at six in the morning Dec. 24, 2002, and while my two children were putting rice in the monk's bowls that they carry each morning from/to their monasteries, I took a few pictures for you. This is near the border of Burma/Thailand where we live surrounded by more than 100 acres of rice field (that are worked entirely by hand). Picture to the left is when the light was just rising." Thailand?? Also I do not as of this morning see Raphael Vishanu's name listed as editor anywhere on this homepage. In December his name as editor was on the homepage of the website. OBTW, I see a "mirror" site of "Esoteric and Science News" at: http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/ Daniel From info@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Jan 01 08:44:17 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 16:44:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 92504 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 16:44:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 16:44:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 16:44:17 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.137] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2003 16:44:16 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 16:44:16 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Update on "Madame Blavatsky and the Latter-Day Messengers of the Masters" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 351 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell The article "Madame Blavatsky and the Latter-Day Messengers of the Masters" has been updated and revised, especially the endnotes. See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/contradictionslatermessengers.htm See Endnotes at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/contradictionslatermessengers.htm#Endnote Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From info@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Jan 01 09:28:20 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 17:28:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 14716 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 17:28:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 17:28:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 17:28:18 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.155] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2003 17:28:18 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 17:28:15 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Books by & about H.P. Blavatsky from Theosophical University Press Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 276 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Inquirers and new students to Theosophy and H.P. Blavatsky may find the following list helpful: "Books by and about H.P. Blavatsky from Theosophical University Press" http://blavatskyarchives.com/blavatskytuplist.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From info@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Jan 01 09:37:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 17:37:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 21649 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 17:37:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 17:37:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 17:37:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.139] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2003 17:37:51 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 17:37:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Suggested Reading on H.P. Blavatsky & Theosophy from Quest Books Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 270 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Inquirers and new students to Theosophy and H.P. Blavatsky may find the following list helpful: "Suggested Reading on H.P. Blavatsky & Theosophy from Quest Books" http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/questauthors2.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From info@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Jan 01 10:15:59 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 18:15:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 68648 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 18:15:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 18:15:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 18:15:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.140] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2003 18:15:53 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 18:15:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Highly Recommended Blavatsky books from the Theosophy Company Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1805 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Highly Recommended Blavatsky books from the Theosophy Company, Los Angeles, California ISIS UNVEILED by H.P. Blavatsky Photographic facsimile of the original 1877 edition, the two volumes bound in one. ISBN 0-938998-01-3 Cloth, $20.00 This is the only photographic facsimile of the original edition currently in print. THE SECRET DOCTRINE by H.P. Blavatsky Facsimile of the original 1888 edition, two volumes in one. ISBN 0- 938998-00-5 Cloth, $22.00 THE THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY by H.P. Blavatsky Facsimile of original 1892 edition. ISBN 0-938998-04-8 Cloth, $17.00 THEOSOPHICAL ARTICLES Valuable three volume compilation of 165 of H.P.B.'s most important articles covering the years 1879-1891. ISBN 0-938998-26-9 Cloth, $48.00 FUNDAMENTALS OF THEOSOPHY Collation from the writings of Madame Blavatsky. Pamphlet, $1.00 WHAT IS THEOSOPHY? - ITS NONSECTARIAN SPIRIT Collation from the writings of H.P. Blavatsky. Pamphlet, $1.00 KARMA AND REINCARNATION Collation from the writings of H.P. Blavatsky. Pamphlet, $2.00 THEOSOPHICAL ARTICLES AND NOTES by H.P. Blavatsky and others. "The articles in this volume come from a variety of sources. . . . Also included are notes of Countess Wachtmeister, apparently taken down from dictation by H.P.B." ISBN 0-938998-29-3 Cloth, $16.00 THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT "A documentary history of the course of the Movement through its first seventy-five years - from 1875 to 1950. It is both a history and a critical evaluation of methods, attitudes and actions." ISBN 0- 938998-14-5 Cloth, $6.00 Controversial but contains many important insights, historical documents and facts not easily found elsewhere. See ORDERING INFORMATION at: http://www.theosophycompany.org/order.html Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Wed Jan 01 11:18:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 19:18:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 90125 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 19:18:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 19:18:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 19:18:02 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2003 19:18:02 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 19:18:00 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and Science News" website Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2292 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.123 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn AS I HAVE NOT HAD ANY INTEREST IN HUNTING DOWN AND IDENTIFYING THIS OR ANY OTHER SITES' EDITORS, NO, I CANNOT TELL YOU. I KNOW NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT THE EDITOR OF THE SITE. JUST BECAUSE I HAVE POSTED THERE OR REFERED PEOPLE THERE DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM AN INSIDER TO THE IDENTITIES OF CONTRIBUTERS INVOLVED WITH THIS SITE. PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE TO MAKE THIS ASSUMPTION. --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell " wrote: > Dear Bhakti Ananda Goswami, > > Since you are announcing on Theos-Talk an article about HPB published > on the "Esoteric and Science News" website at > , > can you tell us who is the CURRENT editor of that website? > > In early to mid Nov. 2002, the editor of that site was still Brian > Muehlebach, who had mysteriously taken over the editorship from > Brigitte Muehlegger in Aug. 2002. > > But soon after Eldon Tucker "booted" Brian from Theos-Talk in the > latter part of Nov., Brian's name as editor disappeared COMPLETELY > from that website and Raphael Vishanu (Gregory Tillett should > remember that name) became the editor. > > Go to the very bottom of the page at > > and see the link to "Editor". This link goes to > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/pic.html > > A week ago this link gave pictures apparently of R.V. Now the link > is dead. But notice the pictures and the caption right above > this "Editor" link. The caption reads: > > "This morning yours editor went out at six in the morning Dec. 24, > 2002, and while my two children were putting rice in the monk's bowls > that they carry each morning from/to their monasteries, I took a few > pictures for you. This is near the border of Burma/Thailand where we > live surrounded by more than 100 acres of rice field (that are worked > entirely by hand). Picture to the left is when the light was just > rising." > > Thailand?? > > Also I do not as of this morning see Raphael Vishanu's name listed as > editor anywhere on this homepage. In December his name as editor was > on the homepage of the website. > > OBTW, I see a "mirror" site of "Esoteric and Science News" at: > > http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/ > > Daniel From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Jan 01 12:23:39 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 20:23:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 50681 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 20:23:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 20:23:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 20:23:38 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a493ec.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.236]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id DA333262A3F for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:23:36 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <006001c2b1d2$bad70f20$ec93a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and Science News" website Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:16:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 I am back - all of you, My views are given in the below: Just read the below from D. Caldwell. And I have to say, that if B. A. Goswami support the following link, - then - the issue of "Dugpaship" comes to my mind. Truth is truth. http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/invhindbuddh.html On what "Dugpas" are - try this: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/occult.htm (Blavatsky article) and this http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/dn-dz.htm (COLLATION OF THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARIES) I quote this: "Editor: Since the group of 170 scholars from the various neo-theosophical groups and organisations has yielded so few responses that were able to match the scholarship of BA G, I have invited Eric Wynants (an expert on the history of esoteric movements worldwide) and an Indologist specialized in Buddhism who will due to his academic position participate under the name Kela. " http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/invhindbuddh.html My Sufilight answer: Well, but B. A. Goswami has as I understand it - more than one time here at Theos-Talk stated, that debates with non-scholars are out of the question. Right ? So what is this above socalled "Editor"s motives ? I think that this Editor is wrong and lies. And this one too: Quoting from the site: "BA G: The Masters as extra-"ordinary" beings is asserted here. One could reject the fictitious claims made for the Masters and still accept that in mortal human terms, HPB's human prototypes for the Masters WERE extra-ordinary people. They were uniquely privileged and intelligent persons strategically located in time and place to create a unique synthesis of some Eastern and Western thought systems. The problem is not in acknowledging the giftedness of HPB and her Masters, it is in being required to accept the whole fictional package that they have been wrapped in. The problem is the basic lack of honesty and forth-rightness that pervades the entire Theosophical enterprise. However this can be understood as a pathology common to all secret societies and "occult" brotherhoods that normally function under the cover of various forms of purposeful obscuration and deceit. Internal discussion of falsified Mahatma Letters runs throughout the early Theosophical Society documents. A lot of expert sophistry and word-jugglery is used to euphemize the obvious lying, cheating and deception that was going on in the organization. " http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/respbag.html My Sufilight answer: None is required to accept anything as stated above. But one is certainly encouraged to THINK or something like that. The use of the word "required" in the above is clearly false and NOT Theosophical teaching. If the "wrapping of the package" is fictional or not, or partly so is of less importance; - i.e. misunderstandings can always occur on a dualistic level. The core teachings of Theosophy is the key to it all. Learn to use the "7 keys" as mentioned by Blavatsky - and seek avoid oneway dead-letter thinking and reading. And a distastefull quote still runs the frontpage of an almost similar website - at http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/%7Emuehleb9/ : "This expose begins with one of the most totalizing of modern myths: Theosophy. Privileged spokespersons present themselves as the sole legitimate conduits of ancient wisdom. Contenders are ruthlessly fought with an array of verbal arguments as well as practical measures." The above is a clear lie. And there is no need to clarify that ! Martin Luther King Jr. two excerpts: A: "I think the first reason that we should love our enemies, and I think this is at the very center of Jesus' thinking, is this: that hate for hate only intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. If I hit you and you hit me and I hit you back and you hit me back and go on, you see, that goes on ad infinitum. It just never ends. Somewhere somebody must have a little sense, and that's the strong person. The strong person is the person who can cut off the chain of hate, the chain of evil. And that is the tragedy of hate, that it doesn't cut it off. It only intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. Somebody must have religion enough and morality enough to cut it off, and inject within the very structure of the universe that strong and powerful element of love." Excerpted from "Loving Your Enemies", a sermon delivered on 17 November 1957 at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Ala. (full text) B: "Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on earth, our loyalties must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; no nation can live alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to have war in this world. Now the judgement of God is upon us, and we must either learn to live together as brothers or we are all going to perish together as fools." Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 December 1967 at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga. Well perish, yes - but maybe only due to Karma...>:-) C: Attraction of Celebrities A man who is being delivered frim the danger of a fierce lion deos not object, wheather this service is performed by an unknown or by an illustrious individual. Why, therefore, do people seek knowledge from celebrities ? D: I think it was the sufi El-Ghazali (d.1111) who said something like the following: The disticntion between opinion and knowledge is something, which can easily be lost. When this happens, it is incumbent upon those who know the difference to make it plain as far as they are able. This habit of confusing opinion with knowledge is almost a epidemic disease these days. Well, that was years ago, but this issue seems to be a disease even today. E: It is allright that some people have authorities. But they have to be constructive. If the authority is destructive, then I won't be good and have to be stopped. I could ask if any has an opinion on wheather any authorities today are good or bad, and I would probably get a lot of hands. But if I ask about if any have the needed spiritual knowledge to judged wheather it is true, - I bet near all the hands will fall down - if the truth was to be presented. Please rethink your positions... from M. sufilight with peace...peace...peace... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 5:07 PM Subject: Theos-World Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and Science News" website > Dear Bhakti Ananda Goswami, > > Since you are announcing on Theos-Talk an article about HPB published > on the "Esoteric and Science News" website at > , > can you tell us who is the CURRENT editor of that website? > > In early to mid Nov. 2002, the editor of that site was still Brian > Muehlebach, who had mysteriously taken over the editorship from > Brigitte Muehlegger in Aug. 2002. > > But soon after Eldon Tucker "booted" Brian from Theos-Talk in the > latter part of Nov., Brian's name as editor disappeared COMPLETELY > from that website and Raphael Vishanu (Gregory Tillett should > remember that name) became the editor. > > Go to the very bottom of the page at > > and see the link to "Editor". This link goes to > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/pic.html > > A week ago this link gave pictures apparently of R.V. Now the link > is dead. But notice the pictures and the caption right above > this "Editor" link. The caption reads: > > "This morning yours editor went out at six in the morning Dec. 24, > 2002, and while my two children were putting rice in the monk's bowls > that they carry each morning from/to their monasteries, I took a few > pictures for you. This is near the border of Burma/Thailand where we > live surrounded by more than 100 acres of rice field (that are worked > entirely by hand). Picture to the left is when the light was just > rising." > > Thailand?? > > Also I do not as of this morning see Raphael Vishanu's name listed as > editor anywhere on this homepage. In December his name as editor was > on the homepage of the website. > > OBTW, I see a "mirror" site of "Esoteric and Science News" at: > > http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/ > > Daniel > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Jan 01 12:23:44 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 20:23:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 77021 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 20:23:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 20:23:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 20:23:43 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a493ec.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.236]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B96D262B8E for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:23:42 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <006101c2b1d2$be2d8d20$ec93a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World More reference? Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 21:17:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Thalprin and all of you, My views are here given in the below: Dear Thalprin: I thought I already had explained the - KEY - to understand the persons (Helena Roerich, Olcott and Krishnamurti) mentioned below. I politely ask you --- is it now so: That you want me to explain it ALL - so to speak - to you about those persons as well, so that you can escape developing your higher bodies, right ? The next questions could then be on Annie Besant, C. W. Leadbeater, W. Q. Judge, Robert Crosbie, Purucker etc... To all of you: --- One should and ought to stop students continuing - dead-letter reading --- --- One ought to teach students the importance of comparative studies --- --- One ought to teach the students the importance of the 7 keys mentioned by Blavatsky --- The students always says, that they want to learn. But - learning how to learn, has not so much their interest even if this is the topic should be followed. I offer you (Thalprin and other readers) to read the book "Learning how to learn" and "The Way of the Sufis" by Idries Shah, that is - if you can get hold on them. 1. Idries Shah - a true Theosophists - who knew about the 7 keys and the teachings on Gupta Vidya: http://www.sufis.org/shahworks.html And because - some persons - on this list Theos-Talk needs to have more respect for the about 1.000.000 humans living as Muslims - the following are recommended: 2. Sufism and Sufis, orders and Initiates: http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/Sufism.html 3. Early Sufi women: http://www.fonsvitae.com/earlysufi.html 4. Ibn Arabi - the greatest Sheik - the known as the Alchemist Doctor Maximus - (pure Gupta Vidya - with true knowledge on the 7 keys) http://www.ibnarabisociety.org/IbnArabi.html http://www.ibnarabisociety.org/articles/habashi_text.html (a badly translated text) 5. Hazrat Inyat Khan - sufi and lecturer at various Theosophical Societies: Online texts from an initiate: http://www.planet-interkom.de/friedrich.plesken/HIKe.htm I think people can agree that Hazrat inyat Khan was a true Theosophists, so why can't they agree on Idries Shah ? Or can they ? Martin Luther King Jr. - a quote: "Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on earth, our loyalties must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; no nation can live alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to have war in this world. Now the judgement of God is upon us, and we must either learn to live together as brothers or we are all going to perish together as fools." Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 December 1967 at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga. Well perish, yes - but maybe only due to Karma...>:-) from M. sufilight with peace... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 1:00 AM Subject: Theos-World More reference? > Hi, > > If it's no bother, Dallas, Daniel, Morton could you provide more > info/reference/links about the works/efforts of Helena Roerich, > Olcott and Krishnamurti? > > I'd be interested in better understanding the explorations and/or > efforts of these folks. > > Sincerely, > Terrie > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Jan 01 14:38:47 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 22:38:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 374 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 22:38:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 22:38:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 22:38:47 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a493ec.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.236]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E35D3480309 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:38:45 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001601c2b1e5$9c5d9100$ec93a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World More reference? Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 23:32:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all, Salam Aleikum, *:-)(#, Doing my very best... To Thalprin: No I am not offended. And where did you get that idea from ? The idea is to avoid such an attitude as being offended. >:-) Even a Master will in a certain sense have to learn how to learn. There are levels of wisdom on the issue of learning how to learn... There is the timing. There is the place. There are the living creatures, organisms - and humans involved etc...when learning how to learn. And also the design used plays its role. (Measuring the result of the design is also important, at least to some.) There are the words used and their vibrations. The language used. ZZZ...IQIQIQ...ZZZ etc. But, but the student asks, when ?, where ?, who ?, what ?, what design ?...??? It has all to be spiritual. Some would say "use the force". Some would say "use the intuition". Some would say "use your head". Some would say "use your heart". Some would say "use your hands". And some would say "create harmony between all these". Then the answer will certainly come. ^/\^ ^/\^ ===<><>=== */\* So why make a ridge into a mountain...? Sometimes Theosophists can be compared with the creature which sometimes are referred to by the name "mole". http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/newberry/common/moles.htm You see, they rarely surface. And they are almost as blind as bats...>:-) Silence and Love has a lot to do with each other. The wise only speak when it is proper. Silence works and can be very efficient - spiritually seen. >From time to time silence is better than those so very long Theosophical or should I say academic emails, which litters the serious spiritually interested students - emailbox... There is LOVE at the surface... Surface LOVE is surface love... I stop here. I will now privately return to my girlfriends problems... from M. Sufilight with a peace more...and some moles living near the edge... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 9:58 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World More reference? > Hi Global-theosophy, > > Comments enclosed: > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" theosophy@a...> wrote: > > Hi Thalprin and all of you, > > > > My views are here given in the below: > > > > Dear Thalprin: > > I thought I already had explained the - KEY - to understand the > persons > > (Helena Roerich, > > Olcott and Krishnamurti) mentioned below. > > I politely ask you --- is it now so: > > That you want me to explain it ALL - so to speak - to you about > those > > persons as well, so that you can escape developing your higher > bodies, right > > ? > > Dearie, perhaps, in having asked for references/links/info you > misinterpret/misconstrue my request in thinking I would ask you > to "explain" -further still, perhaps, your additional > assumptions/presumption about me personally and/or my own > developments/motives are (besides, being off-topic and/or out of left- > field) unfounded, judgemental and/or more simply-put odd and mute. > > Perhaps, you are offended that I have/maintain my own opinions. > > > > > The next questions could then be on Annie Besant, C. W. Leadbeater, > W. Q. > > Judge, Robert Crosbie, Purucker etc... > > > > To all of you: > > --- One should and ought to stop students continuing - dead-letter > > reading --- > > --- One ought to teach students the importance of comparative > studies --- > > --- One ought to teach the students the importance of the 7 keys > mentioned > > by Blavatsky --- > > > > The students always says, that they want to learn. But - learning > how to > > learn, has not so much their interest even if this is the topic > should be > > followed. > > > > I offer you (Thalprin and other readers) to read the book "Learning > how to > > learn" and "The Way of the Sufis" by Idries Shah, that is - if you > can get > > hold on them. > > That's funny! I take it you've read this book AND have thusly > learned how to learn. That's nice, and, none-the-less, thanks very > much for the kindly suggestions, surely, I will keep these in mind. > > > > 1. > > Idries Shah - a true Theosophists - who knew about the 7 keys and > the > > teachings on Gupta Vidya: > > http://www.sufis.org/shahworks.html > > And because - some persons - on this list Theos-Talk needs to have > more > > respect for the about 1.000.000 humans living as Muslims - the > following are > > recommended: > > 2. > > Sufism and Sufis, orders and Initiates: > > http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/Sufism.html > > 3. > > Early Sufi women: > > http://www.fonsvitae.com/earlysufi.html > > 4. > > Ibn Arabi - the greatest Sheik - the known as the Alchemist Doctor > Maximus - > > (pure Gupta Vidya - with true knowledge on the 7 keys) > > http://www.ibnarabisociety.org/IbnArabi.html > > http://www.ibnarabisociety.org/articles/habashi_text.html (a badly > > translated text) > > 5. > > Hazrat Inyat Khan - sufi and lecturer at various Theosophical > Societies: > > Online texts from an initiate: > > http://www.planet-interkom.de/friedrich.plesken/HIKe.htm > > > > I think people can agree that Hazrat inyat Khan was a true > Theosophists, so > > why can't they agree on Idries Shah ? > > Or can they ? > > > > > > Martin Luther King Jr. - a quote: > > > > "Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on earth, our > > loyalties must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our > loyalties must > > transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this > means we > > must develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; no > nation > > can live alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to > have war in > > this world. Now the judgement of God is upon us, and we must either > learn to > > live together as brothers or we are all going to perish together as > fools." > > > > Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 > December 1967 > > at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga. > > > > Well perish, yes - but maybe only due to Karma...>:-) > > > > Ha! That's funnier yet! You know what they say: "Karma is as Karma > does or was or will be" ! > > Have a BEAUTIFUL day, > > Terrie > > > > > > > from > > M. sufilight with peace... > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 1:00 AM > > Subject: Theos-World More reference? > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > If it's no bother, Dallas, Daniel, Morton could you provide more > > > info/reference/links about the works/efforts of Helena Roerich, > > > Olcott and Krishnamurti? > > > > > > I'd be interested in better understanding the explorations and/or > > > efforts of these folks. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > Terrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Wed Jan 01 15:42:42 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 1 Jan 2003 23:42:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 67062 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2003 23:42:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2003 23:42:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2003 23:42:42 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.138] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Jan 2003 23:42:41 -0000 Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 23:42:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and Science News" website Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <006001c2b1d2$bad70f20$ec93a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 16846 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.94 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn RESPONSE FROM BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI AT >>> PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS, I AM NOT SHOUTING... Message 10142 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 12:16 pm Subject: Re: Theos-World Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and Science News" website I am back - all of you, My views are given in the below: Just read the below from D. Caldwell. And I have to say, that if B. A. Goswami support the following link, - then - the issue of "Dugpaship" comes to my mind. Truth is truth. http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/invhindbuddh.html On what "Dugpas" are - try this: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/occult.htm (Blavatsky article) and this http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/dn-dz.htm (COLLATION OF THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARIES) >>>HERE ARE SOME OF THE DUGPA REFERENCES MENTIONED ABOVE One could even dispense with any lofty standard of morality. In the last case, of course, ten to one the student would blossom into a very decent kind of sorcerer, and tumble down headlong into black magic. But what can this matter? The Voodoos and the Dugpas eat, drink and are merry over heca-tombs of victims of their infernal arts. And so do the amiable gentlemen vivisectionists and the diploma- ed "Hypnotizers" of the Faculties of Medicine; tube only difference between the two classes being that the Voodoos and Dugpas are conscious, and the Charcot-Richet crew unconscious, Sorcerers. Thus, since both have to reap the fruits of their labours and achievements in the black art, the Western practitioners should not have the punishment and reputation without the profits and enjoyments they may get therefrom. For we say it again, hypnotism and vivisection as practiced in such schools, are schools, are Sorcery pure and simple, minus a knowledge that the Voodoos and Dugpas enjoy, and which no Charcot-Richet can procure for himself in fifty years of hard study and experimental observation. Let then those who will dabble in magic, whether they understand its nature or not, but who find the rules imposed upon students too hard, and who, therefore lay Atma- Vidya or Occultism aside--go without it. Let them become magicians by all means, even though they do become Voodoos and Dugpas for the next ten incarnations. ********************************************************************** ********************************************************************** ********************** TG Dugpas (Tib.). Lit., "Red Caps," a sect in Tibet. Before the advent of Tsong-ka-pa in the fourteenth century, the Tibetans, whose Buddhism had deteriorated and been dreadfully adulterated with the tenets of the old Bhon religion, -- were all Dugpas. From that century, however, and after the rigid laws imposed upon the Gelukpas (yellow caps) and the general reform and purification of Buddhism (or Lamaism), the Dugpas have given themselves over more than ever to sorcery, immorality, and drunkenness. Since then the word Dugpa has become a synonym of "sorcerer", "adept of black magic" and everything vile. There are few, if any, Dugpas in Eastern Tibet, but they congregate in Bhutan, Sikkim, and the borderlands generally. Europeans not being permitted to penetrate further than those borders, the Orientalists never having studied Buddho-Lamaism in Tibet proper, but judging of it on hearsay and from what Cosmo di Koros, Schlagintweit, and a few others have learnt of it from Dugpas, confuse both religions and bring then) under one head. They thus give out to the public pure Dugpaism instead of Buddho-Lamaism. In short Northern Buddhism in its purified, metaphysical form is almost entirely unknown. VS dread Dad-Dugpa clan (III 11) [[p. 51]] The Bhons or Dugpas, the sect of the "Red Caps," are regarded as the most versed in sorcery. They inhabit Western and little Tibet and Bhutan. They are all Tantrikas. It is quite ridiculous to find Orientalists who have visited the borderlands of Tibet, such as Schlagintweit and others, confusing the rites and disgusting practices of these with the religious beliefs of the Eastern Lamas, the "Yellow Caps," and their Narjols or holy men. The following is an instance. FY Dugpas, the "Red Caps," evil magicians, belonging to the left-hand path of occultism, so called in Tibet. WG Dugpa (Thibetan), a sorcerer or "red-cap" of Bhootan. (See Gelupa.) SD INDEX Dugpa(s) (Tib). See also Sorcerers power of II 221n swastika on idols of II 586 >>>MR OLESON, WOULD YOU KINDLY EXPLAIN TO ME WHY YOU HAVE MENTIONED ME IN THE CONTEXT OF DUGPA AS DEFINED ABOVE ? >>>I HAVE CLEARLY IDENTIFIED MY RELIGIOUS AFFILIATIONS AND LINEAGE, AND HAVE PROVIDED EVIDENCE OF THE SAME. (SEE MY AFFILIATION WITH THE WORLD VAISHNAVA ASSOCIATION.) I AM A RESPECTED SANNYASI OF THE BRAHMA-MADHVA GAUDIYA LINEAGE OF VAISHNAVISM. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY SATTVIC (HOLY, ASCETIC OR PIETISTIC) TRADITION. IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS, ALLOW ME TO TELL YOU. I AM STRICTLY CELIBATE AND CHASTE AND HAVE NOT EATEN ANY FLESH INCLUDING FOWL, FISH OR EGGS FOR OVER 30 YEARS. I PRACTICE NO MAGIC OR ANIMAL SACRIFICES. NOT ONLY AM I NOT A DRUNK. BUT FOR OVER 30 YEARS I HAVE NOT BEEN A DRINKER OF ALCOHOL OR EVEN COLA OR COFFEE. I HAVE NOT SMOKED TOBACCO, MARIJUANA OR TAKEN ANY OTHER KINDS OF INTOXICANTS. THUS I PRACTICE THE SATTVIC VOWS OF AHIMSA (NON VIOLENCE) , DHIRA (SOBRIETY), SATYA (TRUTH) AND BRAHMACARYA (CHASTITY, PLUS MANY OTHER VOWS, SUCH AS VOLUNTARY SIMPLICITY ('POVERTY'), CONTROL OF AND PURITY OF SPEACH, DEDICATION TO THE MENIAL PHYSICAL SERVICE TO OTHERS, DAILY SHASTRIC STUDY, OFFERING ALL MY 'MERIT' FOR THE SALVATION OF OTHERS, AND A MINIMUM OF 6 HOURS OF INTERCESSORY PRAYER A DAY. >>>THIS HARDLY QUALIFIES ME TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE LEFT-HAND TANTRIKA DUGPA SECT. IN FACT I HAVE SPENT MY LIFE OPPOSING THE EVILS OF SUCH TAMASIC RELIGIONS, AND HAVE ACTUALLY RESCUED, BY THE GRACE OF GOD, SOME POOR SOULS FROM THE BONDAGE OF FLESH EATING, INTOXICATION, ILLICIT SEX AND LYING. I quote this: "Editor: Since the group of 170 scholars from the various neo- theosophical groups and organisations has yielded so few responses that were able to match the scholarship of BA G, I have invited Eric Wynants (an expert on the history of esoteric movements worldwide) and an Indologist specialized in Buddhism who will due to his academic position participate under the name Kela. " http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/invhindbuddh.html My Sufilight answer: Well, but B. A. Goswami has as I understand it - more than one time here at Theos-Talk stated, that debates with non-scholars are out of the question. Right ? >>> WHAT IS THIS A REFERENCE TO ? I WILL 'DEBATE' ANYONE ANYTIME IF THERE SEEMS TO BE ENOUGH VALUE IN IT. I HAVE ONLY POSTED MY CREDENTIALS HERE SO THAT OTHERS MAY KNOW 'WHERE I AM COMING FROM'. I AM FROM THE SCHOOL THAT SAYS ONE'S TRAINING AND QUALIFICATION IS IMPORTANT. WHILE IT IS SAFE TO ASSUME THAT DANIEL IS AN EXPERT ON THEOSOPHY, DUE TO HIS WELL-KNOWN POSITION, NO ONE HERE KNEW WHAT MY QUALIFICATION WAS TO SPEAK ON THE VEDAS OR PURANAS IN RELATION TO THE WRITINGS OF HPB AND HER MAHATMAS. SO I PROVIDE MY INFORMATION. >>>I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE EDITOR(S) OF THE ESOTERIC NEWS SITE, AND AM UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO SPEAK FOR OR IDENTIFY OR DEFEND HIM, HER OR THEM. >>>I AM NOT THEM OR RELATED TO THEM IN ANY WAY. I AM MERELY A PERSON WHO SENT SOME LETTERS TO THE SITE, IN RESPONSE TO A NUMBER OF THE POSTINGS THERE. >>>I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE SITE'S EDITORS' MOTIVES HAVE BEEN OR ARE. I AM SIMPLY CONTRIBUTING MY OPINIONS ON A NUMBER OF SUBJECTS TO SOME PUBLIC EXCHANGES. >>>WHEN I INITIALLY WROTE TO THE ESOTERIC NEWS SITE I GAVE BLANKET PERMISSION TO USE ANY INFORMATION FROM MY LETTERS. THAT IS HOW SOME OF MY WRITINGS ENDED UP HERE. WHEN I WAS INFORMED ABOUT THIS SITE, I CAME HERE AND IDENTIFIED MYSELF. AS A RESULT, I WAS ACCUSED OF LYING ABOUT MY IDENTITY AND BEING SOMEONE ELSE. TWICE MY GALVA BIOGRAPHY AND ARTICLE LINK HAS BEEN POSTED HERE, WHICH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING ON THIS SITE. INSTEAD OF BEING OFFENED THAT THE QUESTION OF MY GENDER WAS INTRODUCED HERE, I SIMPLY TOOK THE OPPORTUNITY TO TEACH THE READERS HERE ABOUT THE REALITY AND SUFFERINGS OF SEX AND GENDER DIFFERENT PEOPLE. THEN I DID NOT RAISE THE ISSUE OF HPB BEING AN "HERMAPHRODITE". I VOICED MY OPINION ON THIS SUBJECT BECAUSE I WAS ASKED IT. THEN I WAS ASSOCIATED (BY CONTEXT OF STATEMENT) WITH THE CATHOLIC AND HINDU MAL-TREATMENT OF WOMEN, AND NOW I HAVE AGAIN BEEN ASSOCIATED IN YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT WITH SOMETHING THAT I HAVE SPENT A LIFETIME BEING OPPOSED TO. I AM OPPOSED TO SEXISM AND ALL THE EVILS OF LEFT-HAND TANTRISM. >>>I HAVE LIVED A LIFE OF COMMITTMENT TO HOLINESS AND HUMBLE SERVICE TO OTHERS. HOW CAN ONE WHO HAS VOWED THEIR SOUL FOR THE SALVATION OF THE "LAST HUNGRY GHOST" IN THE UNIVERSE BE MOTIVATED BY HATE FOR ANY BEING ? IT SEEMS THAT YOU HAVE ASSUMED THAT I HATE HPB, BECAUSE I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT HER LACK OF HONESTY. IT IS OUT OF LOVE THAT I HAVE TAKEN THE CONSIDERABLE EFFORT TO WRITE ANYTHING AT ALL ON THE SUBJECT OF HPB AND THEOSOPHY. TO HAVE MY MOTIVES SO ATTACKED HERE, SAYS SOMETHING VERY SAD ABOUT THE ATTACKERS. >>>I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYONE ELSE'S MOTIVES, ONLY FOR MY OWN, AND MY MOTIVE HERE HAS BEEN ONE OF LOVE. >>>WISHING YOU ALL WELL, AND WEARY OF BEING ABUSED HERE, >>>SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI, >>>BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI So what is this above socalled "Editor"s motives ? I think that this Editor is wrong and lies. And this one too: Quoting from the site: "BA G: The Masters as extra-"ordinary" beings is asserted here. One could reject the fictitious claims made for the Masters and still accept that in mortal human terms, HPB's human prototypes for the Masters WERE extra-ordinary people. They were uniquely privileged and intelligent persons strategically located in time and place to create a unique synthesis of some Eastern and Western thought systems. The problem is not in acknowledging the giftedness of HPB and her Masters, it is in being required to accept the whole fictional package that they have been wrapped in. The problem is the basic lack of honesty and forth-rightness that pervades the entire Theosophical enterprise. However this can be understood as a pathology common to all secret societies and "occult" brotherhoods that normally function under the cover of various forms of purposeful obscuration and deceit. Internal discussion of falsified Mahatma Letters runs throughout the early Theosophical Society documents. A lot of expert sophistry and word- jugglery is used to euphemize the obvious lying, cheating and deception that was going on in the organization. " http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/respbag.html My Sufilight answer: None is required to accept anything as stated above. But one is certainly encouraged to THINK or something like that. The use of the word "required" in the above is clearly false and NOT Theosophical teaching. If the "wrapping of the package" is fictional or not, or partly so is of less importance; - i.e. misunderstandings can always occur on a dualistic level. The core teachings of Theosophy is the key to it all. Learn to use the "7 keys" as mentioned by Blavatsky - and seek avoid oneway dead-letter thinking and reading. And a distastefull quote still runs the frontpage of an almost similar website - at http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/%7Emuehleb9/ : "This expose begins with one of the most totalizing of modern myths: Theosophy. Privileged spokespersons present themselves as the sole legitimate conduits of ancient wisdom. Contenders are ruthlessly fought with an array of verbal arguments as well as practical measures." The above is a clear lie. And there is no need to clarify that ! Martin Luther King Jr. two excerpts: A: "I think the first reason that we should love our enemies, and I think this is at the very center of Jesus' thinking, is this: that hate for hate only intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. If I hit you and you hit me and I hit you back and you hit me back and go on, you see, that goes on ad infinitum. It just never ends. Somewhere somebody must have a little sense, and that's the strong person. The strong person is the person who can cut off the chain of hate, the chain of evil. And that is the tragedy of hate, that it doesn't cut it off. It only intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. Somebody must have religion enough and morality enough to cut it off, and inject within the very structure of the universe that strong and powerful element of love." Excerpted from "Loving Your Enemies", a sermon delivered on 17 November 1957 at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Ala. (full text) B: "Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on earth, our loyalties must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; no nation can live alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to have war in this world. Now the judgement of God is upon us, and we must either learn to live together as brothers or we are all going to perish together as fools." Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 December 1967 at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga. Well perish, yes - but maybe only due to Karma...>:-) C: Attraction of Celebrities A man who is being delivered frim the danger of a fierce lion deos not object, wheather this service is performed by an unknown or by an illustrious individual. Why, therefore, do people seek knowledge from celebrities ? D: I think it was the sufi El-Ghazali (d.1111) who said something like the following: The disticntion between opinion and knowledge is something, which can easily be lost. When this happens, it is incumbent upon those who know the difference to make it plain as far as they are able. This habit of confusing opinion with knowledge is almost a epidemic disease these days. Well, that was years ago, but this issue seems to be a disease even today. E: It is allright that some people have authorities. But they have to be constructive. If the authority is destructive, then I won't be good and have to be stopped. I could ask if any has an opinion on wheather any authorities today are good or bad, and I would probably get a lot of hands. But if I ask about if any have the needed spiritual knowledge to judged wheather it is true, - I bet near all the hands will fall down - if the truth was to be presented. Please rethink your positions... from M. sufilight with peace...peace...peace... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 5:07 PM Subject: Theos-World Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and Science News" website > Dear Bhakti Ananda Goswami, > > Since you are announcing on Theos-Talk an article about HPB published > on the "Esoteric and Science News" website at > , > can you tell us who is the CURRENT editor of that website? > > In early to mid Nov. 2002, the editor of that site was still Brian > Muehlebach, who had mysteriously taken over the editorship from > Brigitte Muehlegger in Aug. 2002. > > But soon after Eldon Tucker "booted" Brian from Theos-Talk in the > latter part of Nov., Brian's name as editor disappeared COMPLETELY > from that website and Raphael Vishanu (Gregory Tillett should > remember that name) became the editor. > > Go to the very bottom of the page at > > and see the link to "Editor". This link goes to > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/pic.html > > A week ago this link gave pictures apparently of R.V. Now the link > is dead. But notice the pictures and the caption right above > this "Editor" link. The caption reads: > > "This morning yours editor went out at six in the morning Dec. 24, > 2002, and while my two children were putting rice in the monk's bowls > that they carry each morning from/to their monasteries, I took a few > pictures for you. This is near the border of Burma/Thailand where we > live surrounded by more than 100 acres of rice field (that are worked > entirely by hand). Picture to the left is when the light was just > rising." > > Thailand?? > > Also I do not as of this morning see Raphael Vishanu's name listed as > editor anywhere on this homepage. In December his name as editor was > on the homepage of the website. > > OBTW, I see a "mirror" site of "Esoteric and Science News" at: > > http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/ > > Daniel > > From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Wed Jan 01 16:35:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 2 Jan 2003 00:35:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 74084 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2003 00:35:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2003 00:35:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2003 00:35:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.248] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jan 2003 00:35:21 -0000 Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 00:35:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Being put in "one's place" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2552 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson " X-Originating-IP: 209.240.198.60 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Dear everyone, And particularly Wry, what I've been making of your comment is this-- correct me if I misunderstand. It is extremely common in ordinary life for people to speak disrespectfully and scornfully of others, "putting them in their place" *behind their backs*. But much less common for this to be done to people's faces. In Internet fora, the propensity of people to diss others behind their backs (that is referring to them disdainfully while avoiding address them personally) is expressed just as often as in "real life." With the crucial difference that the person being backbitten becomes an unwilling eavesdropper, since the third person remarks are made publicly, even though they are addressed to someone else. Therefore, people like Tony and Dallas (and today Leon) talking about me in the third person while rejecting personal communication really have no interest whatsoever in communicating with me. There's no intended message for me in what they say. Putting "Paul Johnson" in "his" place has absolutely nothing to do with me. And everything to do with *their* place in the cosmic or Theosophical pecking order. To be more explicit about what mystifies me: why does everyone I know in real life appear to like me, but devote little to no thought to what my "place" is in any overall scheme or feel any need to define that "place" and put me in it? Whereas quite a few strangers met on the Internet evidently dislike me to a degree totally unknown in my reai life, and more perplexingly seem to have a keen interest in defining what my "place" is and publicly putting me in it? (And this is just as true of Baha'is or Cayceites or Fourth Way folks as for Theosophists.) My hypothesis: in "real life" people are quite secure in their "place" and interactions are rooted in mutual understanding of where others are "placed." Whereas in Internet fora, people are existentially insecure about their own "place" in the world, and therefore pathologically obsessed with putting strangers in "their place" so as to maintain some kind of internally imagined pecking order. (E.g. BAG has *got* to be defined as a dugpa to maintain some kind of stability in our Danish member's mental universe,) A rather creepy vision of why people behave so much more obnoxiously online than in real life, but more sensible than thinking that folks around here in NC and VA are nice whereas those in most of the rest of the world are always trying to put everybody down. Which does occur to me in my exasperated moments! Cheers, Paul From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Wed Jan 01 17:04:13 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 2 Jan 2003 01:04:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 46767 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2003 01:04:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2003 01:04:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2003 01:04:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.133] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jan 2003 01:04:12 -0000 Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 01:04:11 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Tacky tactics-Practical Theosophy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 8740 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson " X-Originating-IP: 209.240.198.60 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" wrote: > Hello Paul > > WOW! That really is some mail. What happened? It is helpful actually. > By tacky I mean sticky, gluey, difficult to move about in, lacking air, > claustrophobic. > > << the message is "I'm so disdainful of you that I refuse to address you or > refer to you by name, yet my disdain requires expression via indirect > sneering comments." But hereby welcome and invite explanations from anyone > about why people do that. Seems like passive aggressive stuff to me; throw > a rock, hide your hand.>>> > > Yes, these words you write describe YOU very well. And then there is that > list of personalities you then went on to post, where you categorise others > on Theos-World with your comments (because you had nothing better to do > whilst waiting for your guests). Those comments are comments about you. Or > did you somehow think they were about them? > > So, regardless of all those other people, the LISTS of people and > organizations you harbour in your mind - and regardless of how "bad" > they/we/or some of us may be === it is possible to turn around and look at > yourself/ourselves and examine your/our own faults WITHOUT going on about > the faults of others. No one is saying that is easy, but it is PRACTISING > THEOSOPHY. If no one else on this list practised Theosophy, it would still > be no excuse for either of us not to. > > If YOU do it you won't have to make up lists and be chained to those > thoughts any more. You won't have to go on about other people on this and > other lists, which you have just so well demonstrated that you at present > do. You will be more concerned about your faults than theirs. And you will > also be more concerned for other people. The only good reason, if there be > a good reason, for making up a list of other peoples faults, is so that it > is possible to see our own faults. The faults you see in others Paul, are > your faults. *It stands to reason.* > > So in answer to YOUR INVITATION, that is why I think YOU (rather than > people), do that. > > Cheers for a better New Year, and I mean it! > Tony. > > Hi Tony, Being a person, I don't imagine myself exempt from any pattern that is observable in "people." What you seem to miss in my post is that the spiritual oneupmanship I complain about on your part is something I've witnessed a hundred, nay a thousand times directed online toward others for every time it has been directed at me. What is this need to put others down online? I neither imagine myself exempt from it nor accept certain Theosophists' apparent obsession with focusing on my alleged personal faults. There are other fora I read that offer better examples of a healthier kind of online communication than are seen here. There are also fora that offer more extreme and aggressive examples of people putting one another down than here. In the new year I will ponder the extremes and the middle and hope other theos-talk subscribers might learn from such contemplation. Theos-talk isn't the most hellish online forum but it sure as *hell* isn't the most heavenly and my presence here has little impact on that. Paul > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" > Good morning, > > The post quoted below uses some tactics that I've seen repeatedly on various > fora, used by Baha'is, Cayceites, Theosophists, Fourth Way disciples. > Sometimes I've been the target, more often the observer of its use on > others. In every case the dynamic is this: one person is a true believer, > the other a dissident or skeptic. The former expresses disdain for the > latter, not by saying outright "you, X, are beneath me so I look down on you > and denounce you" but rather by making sneering, dismissive comments to > others *about* the skeptic or dissident without naming him or her. Such > comments offer a tiny fig leaf of plausible deniability-- if the target > objects, their authors can turn around and say "I wasn't referring to you > and the fact that you imagine I was just proves you're paranoid." I will > never forget one Baha'i who made a point by point attack on a post I made > and then furiously insisted that he had never read it or anything else I > ever wrote! > (And never would lower himself to do so.) > > Having seen "the treatment" from several folks here, I would guess that the > message is "I'm so disdainful of you that I refuse to address you or refer > to you by name, yet my disdain requires expression via indirect sneering > comments." But hereby welcome and invite explanations from anyone about why > people do that. Seems like passive aggressive stuff to me; throw a rock, > hide your hand. > > Tony (whom I know only from this post) wrote: > > wrote: > > > Hi Terrie > > > > Your e-mails! Rather like the sun peeping out from behind they dark black > > clouds. > > What dark clouds? > > > You initially wrote: > > << > a worldly, enlightening and unbias resourse AND that what she has > > written is in fact a tremendous accumulation of reason and wisdom AND > > quite a respectable gift to have accomplished/offered on up - it's an > > inspiration, even today.>>> > > > > Alas, what seemed a reasonable statement, > > "Seemed" is not absolute but relative. So it seemed to *you*, Tony, but not > to me. > > has turned into a rather tacky > > conversation about bias. > > Tacky meaning in poor taste? Why is it tacky to discuss bias? Rather than > sneering at the conversation, perhaps you might enlighten us with non-tacky > comments about bias? > > Like you, biased is not something I would use > > about or attribute to H.P.B. > > Why not? She was a vigorous polemicist with a very definite agenda. Not > that there is anything wrong with that, but let's not pretend it's not the > case. > > We do know she had tremendous powers of > > discrimination:), and where you might well use discrimination, another > might > > use bias. The books you read may be to do with your discriminatory > powers, > > rather than with bias. The sun view is different to the black clouds > view. > > That sort of comment is summarized by a very simple phrase, "holier than > thou." Why not get down off your high horse and engage the topic as an > equal among equals? The Theosophical movement is very poorly served IMO by > the tactics its adherents use, congratulating one another with their > superiority to benighted skeptics. I'd advise saving that for private email > because it makes a bad appearance for your "side." > > > > Bias is below the belt, discrimination above the head. Roget is not law. > > Descriptive, not prescriptive. Terrie doesn't have to use the word the way > it is generally used, but will be better understood if she does so. > > > I have read some Olcott, and been to several talks given by Krishnamurti. > > It is nice to dip into lots of different things, but there is no > particular > > reason why anyone should feel the need to read Krishnamurti from the > > Theosophical point of view. > > No particular reason? That's rather sweeping. How about the fact that the > maximum membership of the TS was during its promotion of him as the World > Teacher? And that his profile is now much higher than the Society that > nurtured him and which he then rejected? > > > Olcott did a wonderful job as an > > administrator, and also did mesmeric healing and other great things. > > But H.P.B. was the Occultist, was of the inner side, so to put it. Here > in > > London it is warm, and the happy waitress serving the coffees to us > outside > > in Soho was from Mauritius, and was demanding to see some snow. It is > always > > supposed to snow at Christmas here, but rarely does. There is something > > magical about snow. Is it something to do with the fact that every > > snowflake is a geometrical shape. It is very like H.P.B's writings. > They > > are full of symbols and geometrical shapes, sounds and colours, pictures, > > and so on. As snow flakes are so beautiful, think by how much more so are > > the thought flakes in "The Secret Doctrine" and "The Voice of the > Silence," > > and All works of That occult or hidden Nature. > > > > Keep shining > > Tony > > > Shiny New Year to you! > > Paul, no dark cloud > > -----Original Message----- > > From: thalprin [mailto:thalprin@y...] > > Sent: 30 December 2002 11:13 pm > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Theos-World Re: Unbiased > > > > > > Hi again > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From bill_meredith@earthlink.net Wed Jan 01 17:45:45 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: bill_meredith@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 2 Jan 2003 01:45:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 20962 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2003 01:45:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2003 01:45:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.218) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2003 01:45:44 -0000 Received: from host-216-128-171-75.rev.o1.com ([216.128.171.75] helo=default) by bluejay.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TuQZ-0004mX-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 01 Jan 2003 17:45:44 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c2b201$18931900$4bab80d8@default> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Being put in "one's place" Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:48:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-ELNK-Trace: aeda9581e82e22886a67a78112ff260e74bf435c0eb9d478a978e63efc350557756481d46e91aa6f1f09db0ba0192f1e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c From: "Bill Meredith" Reply-To: "Bill Meredith" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=131669976 Paul wrote in part: Hi Paul. One other possibility, which strikes nearer to home for me, might be that in our "normal" lives we exercise more control over which people with whom we interact -- especially about matters of the heart which could include love and/or spiritual interests. We gravitate toward people and groups that reinforce our world-view. We may even avoid and seek to censure people and groups that threaten our understanding. On lists such as this one, just by maintaining an active membership, we are servicing a need to remain open and hear more than our own echo returning -- even while others on the list agitate to make the on-line environment more like their own neighborhood, i.e., comfortable with a well established and clearly understood pecking order. It could be that these lists do have pecking orders, but certainly, as you say, such hierarchies exist as figments of each members mental constructs. While there are some members of every list in which I participate whose posting mannerisms repulse me such that I could not imagine having a courteous breakfast conversation with them, there are many others whose posts give me cause for serious contemplation. You are certainly in this latter group and I appreciate your efforts to BE here despite the fact that you are a lightening rod for certain individuals' aggressions acted out in the name of universal brotherhood. However, if you keep in mind that scores of silent observers may note your daily interactions on these lists, your resilience and determination to ask questions and be heard on issues of the heart becomes more important than the thickness of your skin. regards, Bill From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Wed Jan 01 23:08:52 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 2 Jan 2003 07:08:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 97235 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2003 07:08:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2003 07:08:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2003 07:08:51 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a493ec.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.236]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 021F34809C5 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 08:08:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002b01c2b22c$dc0f71a0$ec93a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and Science News" website Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 08:02:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, Shanti, Dear BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI, Here are my views: Thanks for your enlightening email. When emailing me, you are totally free to use caps and the like >:-) B. A. GOSWAMI wrote: "MR OLESON, WOULD YOU KINDLY EXPLAIN TO ME WHY YOU HAVE MENTIONED > ME IN THE CONTEXT OF DUGPA AS DEFINED ABOVE ?" My Sufilight answer: I will do my very best. But please remember, that I am NOT saying and have NOT said that you are a Dugpa. (Try eventually rereading my last email to you and Theos-Talk on the matter). But, I can only encourage you to keep your critisism of Theosophy away from websites as the one referred to in the below. (i.e. http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/invhindbuddh.html ) You wrote below: "I AM NOT THEM OR RELATED TO THEM IN ANY WAY. I AM MERELY A PERSON > WHO SENT SOME LETTERS TO THE SITE, IN RESPONSE TO A NUMBER OF THE > POSTINGS THERE. " And just to let you know: I don't care what people EAT, DRINK and even INHALE. If they do Gods - Parabrahmans will, that is what matters for me. But of course some 'intakings' ought to be avoided. B. A. GOSWAMI wrote: "I WILL 'DEBATE' ANYONE ANYTIME IF > THERE SEEMS TO BE ENOUGH VALUE IN IT. I HAVE ONLY POSTED MY > CREDENTIALS HERE SO THAT ".... My Sufilight answer: Okay, I was wrong. Your position is noted. Allow me a question: Dear B. A. Goswami, do you think, that serious Theosophists are Dugpas ? And this one too: Quoting from the site: "BA G: The Masters as extra-"ordinary" beings is asserted here. One could reject the fictitious claims made for the Masters and still accept that in mortal human terms, HPB's human prototypes for the Masters WERE extra-ordinary people. They were uniquely privileged and intelligent persons strategically located in time and place to create a unique synthesis of some Eastern and Western thought systems. The problem is not in acknowledging the giftedness of HPB and her Masters, it is in being required to accept the whole fictional package that they have been wrapped in. The problem is the basic lack of honesty and forth-rightness that pervades the entire Theosophical enterprise. However this can be understood as a pathology common to all secret societies and "occult" brotherhoods that normally function under the cover of various forms of purposeful obscuration and deceit. Internal discussion of falsified Mahatma Letters runs throughout the early Theosophical Society documents. A lot of expert sophistry and word- jugglery is used to euphemize the obvious lying, cheating and deception that was going on in the organization. " http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/respbag.html My Sufilight answer: Is the above quote false ? What are your views on the below answer...? None is required to accept anything as stated above. But one is certainly encouraged to THINK or something like that. The use of the word "required" in the above is clearly false and NOT Theosophical teaching. If the "wrapping of the package" is fictional or not, or partly so is of less importance; - i.e. misunderstandings can always occur on a dualistic level. The core teachings of Theosophy is the key to it all. Let us learn to use the "7 keys" as mentioned by Blavatsky - and seek avoid oneway dead-letter thinking and reading. As I see it: There are - at least two positions - when reading Blavatskys scriptures. There are those who read the scriptures - and relate them to the time they were written in, - and then understands their value. Secondly there are those who read Blavatkys scriptures - and relate them to the present time of ours year 2003, - and because of the difference in time between writing and today, people often gets quite a distorted picture of what Blavatasky really meant. According to me - some skills are required, when evaluating spiritual scriptures of the past and relating them properly to the present day of the hour. Of course there are other positions. ParaBrahman has secrets, not known to the ignorant. from M. Sufilight with peace on Earth... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 12:42 AM Subject: Theos-World Re: Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and Science News" website > RESPONSE FROM BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI AT >>> > PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS, I AM NOT SHOUTING... > > Message 10142 > From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" > Date: Wed Jan 1, 2003 12:16 pm > Subject: Re: Theos-World Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and > Science News" website > > > > > I am back - all of you, > > My views are given in the below: > Just read the below from D. Caldwell. > And I have to say, that if B. A. Goswami support the following link, - > then - the issue of "Dugpaship" comes to my mind. Truth is truth. > http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/invhindbuddh.html > > On what "Dugpas" are - try this: > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/occult.htm (Blavatsky article) > and this > http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/dn-dz.htm (COLLATION OF > THEOSOPHICAL > GLOSSARIES) > > > >>>HERE ARE SOME OF THE DUGPA REFERENCES MENTIONED ABOVE > > One could even dispense with any lofty standard of morality. In the > last case, of course, ten to one the student would blossom into a > very decent kind of sorcerer, and tumble down headlong into black > magic. But what can this matter? The Voodoos and the Dugpas eat, > drink and are merry over heca-tombs of victims of their infernal > arts. And so do the amiable gentlemen vivisectionists and the diploma- > ed "Hypnotizers" of the Faculties of Medicine; tube only difference > between the two classes being that the Voodoos and Dugpas are > conscious, and the Charcot-Richet crew unconscious, Sorcerers. Thus, > since both have to reap the fruits of their labours and achievements > in the black art, the Western practitioners should not have the > punishment and reputation without the profits and enjoyments they may > get therefrom. For we say it again, hypnotism and vivisection as > practiced in such schools, are schools, are Sorcery pure and simple, > minus a knowledge that the Voodoos and Dugpas enjoy, and which no > Charcot-Richet can procure for himself in fifty years of hard study > and experimental observation. Let then those who will dabble in > magic, whether they understand its nature or not, but who find the > rules imposed upon students too hard, and who, therefore lay Atma- > Vidya or Occultism aside--go without it. Let them become magicians by > all means, even though they do become Voodoos and Dugpas for the next > ten incarnations. > > ********************************************************************** > ********************************************************************** > ********************** > > TG Dugpas (Tib.). Lit., "Red Caps," a sect in Tibet. Before the > advent of Tsong-ka-pa in the fourteenth century, the Tibetans, whose > Buddhism had deteriorated and been dreadfully adulterated with the > tenets of the old Bhon religion, -- were all Dugpas. From that > century, however, and after the rigid laws imposed upon the Gelukpas > (yellow caps) and the general reform and purification of Buddhism (or > Lamaism), the Dugpas have given themselves over more than ever to > sorcery, immorality, and drunkenness. Since then the word Dugpa has > become a synonym of "sorcerer", "adept of black magic" and everything > vile. There are few, if any, Dugpas in Eastern Tibet, but they > congregate in Bhutan, Sikkim, and the borderlands generally. > Europeans not being permitted to penetrate further than those > borders, the Orientalists never having studied Buddho-Lamaism in > Tibet proper, but judging of it on hearsay and from what Cosmo di > Koros, Schlagintweit, and a few others have learnt of it from Dugpas, > confuse both religions and bring then) under one head. They thus give > out to the public pure Dugpaism instead of Buddho-Lamaism. In short > Northern Buddhism in its purified, metaphysical form is almost > entirely unknown. > VS dread Dad-Dugpa clan (III 11) [[p. 51]] The Bhons or Dugpas, the > sect of the "Red Caps," are regarded as the most versed in sorcery. > They inhabit Western and little Tibet and Bhutan. They are all > Tantrikas. It is quite ridiculous to find Orientalists who have > visited the borderlands of Tibet, such as Schlagintweit and others, > confusing the rites and disgusting practices of these with the > religious beliefs of the Eastern Lamas, the "Yellow Caps," and their > Narjols or holy men. The following is an instance. > > FY Dugpas, the "Red Caps," evil magicians, belonging to the left-hand > path of occultism, so called in Tibet. > > WG Dugpa (Thibetan), a sorcerer or "red-cap" of Bhootan. (See > Gelupa.) > > SD INDEX Dugpa(s) (Tib). See also Sorcerers > > power of II 221n > swastika on idols of II 586 > > >>>MR OLESON, WOULD YOU KINDLY EXPLAIN TO ME WHY YOU HAVE MENTIONED > ME IN THE CONTEXT OF DUGPA AS DEFINED ABOVE ? > > >>>I HAVE CLEARLY IDENTIFIED MY RELIGIOUS AFFILIATIONS AND LINEAGE, > AND HAVE PROVIDED EVIDENCE OF THE SAME. (SEE MY AFFILIATION WITH THE > WORLD VAISHNAVA ASSOCIATION.) I AM A RESPECTED SANNYASI OF THE > BRAHMA-MADHVA GAUDIYA LINEAGE OF VAISHNAVISM. THIS IS AN EXTREMELY > SATTVIC (HOLY, ASCETIC OR PIETISTIC) TRADITION. IF YOU DO NOT KNOW > WHAT THAT MEANS, ALLOW ME TO TELL YOU. I AM STRICTLY CELIBATE AND > CHASTE AND HAVE NOT EATEN ANY FLESH INCLUDING FOWL, FISH OR EGGS FOR > OVER 30 YEARS. I PRACTICE NO MAGIC OR ANIMAL SACRIFICES. NOT ONLY > AM I NOT A DRUNK. BUT FOR OVER 30 YEARS I HAVE NOT BEEN A DRINKER OF > ALCOHOL OR EVEN COLA OR COFFEE. I HAVE NOT SMOKED TOBACCO, MARIJUANA > OR TAKEN ANY OTHER KINDS OF INTOXICANTS. THUS I PRACTICE THE SATTVIC > VOWS OF AHIMSA (NON VIOLENCE) , DHIRA (SOBRIETY), SATYA (TRUTH) AND > BRAHMACARYA (CHASTITY, PLUS MANY OTHER VOWS, SUCH AS VOLUNTARY > SIMPLICITY ('POVERTY'), CONTROL OF AND PURITY OF SPEACH, DEDICATION > TO THE MENIAL PHYSICAL SERVICE TO OTHERS, DAILY SHASTRIC STUDY, > OFFERING ALL MY 'MERIT' FOR THE SALVATION OF OTHERS, AND A MINIMUM OF > 6 HOURS OF INTERCESSORY PRAYER A DAY. > > >>>THIS HARDLY QUALIFIES ME TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE LEFT-HAND > TANTRIKA DUGPA SECT. IN FACT I HAVE SPENT MY LIFE OPPOSING THE EVILS > OF SUCH TAMASIC RELIGIONS, AND HAVE ACTUALLY RESCUED, BY THE GRACE OF > GOD, SOME POOR SOULS FROM THE BONDAGE OF FLESH EATING, INTOXICATION, > ILLICIT SEX AND LYING. > > > I quote this: > "Editor: Since the group of 170 scholars from the various neo- > theosophical > groups and organisations has yielded so few responses that were able > to > match the scholarship of BA G, I have invited Eric Wynants (an expert > on > the history of esoteric movements worldwide) and an Indologist > specialized > in Buddhism who will due to his academic position participate under > the name > Kela. " > http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/invhindbuddh.html > > My Sufilight answer: > Well, but B. A. Goswami has as I understand it - more than one time > here at > Theos-Talk stated, that debates with non-scholars are out of the > question. > Right ? > > >>> WHAT IS THIS A REFERENCE TO ? I WILL 'DEBATE' ANYONE ANYTIME IF > THERE SEEMS TO BE ENOUGH VALUE IN IT. I HAVE ONLY POSTED MY > CREDENTIALS HERE SO THAT OTHERS MAY KNOW 'WHERE I AM COMING FROM'. > I AM FROM THE SCHOOL THAT SAYS ONE'S TRAINING AND QUALIFICATION IS > IMPORTANT. WHILE IT IS SAFE TO ASSUME THAT DANIEL IS AN EXPERT ON > THEOSOPHY, DUE TO HIS WELL-KNOWN POSITION, NO ONE HERE KNEW WHAT MY > QUALIFICATION WAS TO SPEAK ON THE VEDAS OR PURANAS IN RELATION TO THE > WRITINGS OF HPB AND HER MAHATMAS. SO I PROVIDE MY INFORMATION. > > >>>I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE EDITOR(S) OF THE ESOTERIC NEWS SITE, AND > AM UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO SPEAK FOR OR IDENTIFY OR DEFEND HIM, HER OR > THEM. > > >>>I AM NOT THEM OR RELATED TO THEM IN ANY WAY. I AM MERELY A PERSON > WHO SENT SOME LETTERS TO THE SITE, IN RESPONSE TO A NUMBER OF THE > POSTINGS THERE. > > >>>I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE SITE'S EDITORS' MOTIVES HAVE BEEN OR ARE. > I AM SIMPLY CONTRIBUTING MY OPINIONS ON A NUMBER OF SUBJECTS TO SOME > PUBLIC EXCHANGES. > > >>>WHEN I INITIALLY WROTE TO THE ESOTERIC NEWS SITE I GAVE BLANKET > PERMISSION TO USE ANY INFORMATION FROM MY LETTERS. THAT IS HOW SOME > OF MY WRITINGS ENDED UP HERE. WHEN I WAS INFORMED ABOUT THIS SITE, I > CAME HERE AND IDENTIFIED MYSELF. AS A RESULT, I WAS ACCUSED OF LYING > ABOUT MY IDENTITY AND BEING SOMEONE ELSE. TWICE MY GALVA BIOGRAPHY > AND ARTICLE LINK HAS BEEN POSTED HERE, WHICH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH > ANYTHING ON THIS SITE. INSTEAD OF BEING OFFENED THAT THE QUESTION OF > MY GENDER WAS INTRODUCED HERE, I SIMPLY TOOK THE OPPORTUNITY TO TEACH > THE READERS HERE ABOUT THE REALITY AND SUFFERINGS OF SEX AND GENDER > DIFFERENT PEOPLE. THEN I DID NOT RAISE THE ISSUE OF HPB BEING > AN "HERMAPHRODITE". I VOICED MY OPINION ON THIS SUBJECT BECAUSE I > WAS ASKED IT. THEN I WAS ASSOCIATED (BY CONTEXT OF STATEMENT) WITH > THE CATHOLIC AND HINDU MAL-TREATMENT OF WOMEN, AND NOW I HAVE AGAIN > BEEN ASSOCIATED IN YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT WITH SOMETHING THAT I HAVE > SPENT A LIFETIME BEING OPPOSED TO. I AM OPPOSED TO SEXISM AND ALL > THE EVILS OF LEFT-HAND TANTRISM. > > >>>I HAVE LIVED A LIFE OF COMMITTMENT TO HOLINESS AND HUMBLE SERVICE > TO OTHERS. HOW CAN ONE WHO HAS VOWED THEIR SOUL FOR THE SALVATION > OF THE "LAST HUNGRY GHOST" IN THE UNIVERSE BE MOTIVATED BY HATE FOR > ANY BEING ? IT SEEMS THAT YOU HAVE ASSUMED THAT I HATE HPB, BECAUSE > I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT HER LACK OF HONESTY. IT IS OUT OF LOVE THAT I > HAVE TAKEN THE CONSIDERABLE EFFORT TO WRITE ANYTHING AT ALL ON THE > SUBJECT OF HPB AND THEOSOPHY. TO HAVE MY MOTIVES SO ATTACKED HERE, > SAYS SOMETHING VERY SAD ABOUT THE ATTACKERS. > > >>>I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYONE ELSE'S MOTIVES, ONLY FOR MY OWN, > AND MY MOTIVE HERE HAS BEEN ONE OF LOVE. > > >>>WISHING YOU ALL WELL, AND WEARY OF BEING ABUSED HERE, > > >>>SHANTI SHANTI SHANTI, > > >>>BHAKTI ANANDA GOSWAMI > > So what is this above socalled "Editor"s motives ? > I think that this Editor is wrong and lies. > > And this one too: > Quoting from the site: > "BA G: The Masters as extra-"ordinary" beings is asserted here. One > could > reject the fictitious claims made for the Masters and still accept > that in > mortal human terms, HPB's human prototypes for the Masters WERE > extra-ordinary people. They were uniquely privileged and intelligent > persons > strategically located in time and place to create a unique synthesis > of some > Eastern and Western thought systems. The problem is not in > acknowledging the > giftedness of HPB and her Masters, it is in being required to accept > the > whole fictional package that they have been wrapped in. The problem > is the > basic lack of honesty and forth-rightness that pervades the entire > Theosophical enterprise. However this can be understood as a pathology > common to all secret societies and "occult" brotherhoods that normally > function under the cover of various forms of purposeful obscuration > and > deceit. > > Internal discussion of falsified Mahatma Letters runs throughout the > early > Theosophical Society documents. A lot of expert sophistry and word- > jugglery > is used to euphemize the obvious lying, cheating and deception that > was > going on in the organization. " > http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/respbag.html > > My Sufilight answer: > None is required to accept anything as stated above. But one is > certainly > encouraged to THINK or something like that. The use of the > word "required" > in the above is clearly false and NOT Theosophical teaching. > If the "wrapping of the package" is fictional or not, or partly so is > of > less importance; - i.e. misunderstandings can always occur on a > dualistic > level. The core teachings of Theosophy is the key to it all. > Learn to use the "7 keys" as mentioned by Blavatsky - and seek avoid > oneway > dead-letter thinking and reading. > > And a distastefull quote still runs the frontpage of an almost similar > website - > at http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/%7Emuehleb9/ : > "This expose begins with one of the most totalizing of modern myths: > Theosophy. Privileged spokespersons present themselves as the sole > legitimate conduits of ancient wisdom. Contenders are ruthlessly > fought with > an array of verbal arguments as well as practical measures." > > The above is a clear lie. And there is no need to clarify that ! > > > > Martin Luther King Jr. two excerpts: > > A: > "I think the first reason that we should love our enemies, and I > think this > is at the very center of Jesus' thinking, is this: that hate for hate > only > intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. If I hit > you and > you hit me and I hit you back and you hit me back and go on, you see, > that > goes on ad infinitum. It just never ends. Somewhere somebody must > have a > little sense, and that's the strong person. The strong person is the > person > who can cut off the chain of hate, the chain of evil. And that is the > tragedy of hate, that it doesn't cut it off. It only intensifies the > existence of hate and evil in the universe. Somebody must have > religion > enough and morality enough to cut it off, and inject within the very > structure of the universe that strong and powerful element of love." > > Excerpted from "Loving Your Enemies", a sermon delivered on 17 > November 1957 > at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Ala. (full text) > > B: > "Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on earth, our > loyalties must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our loyalties > must > transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this > means we > must develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; no > nation > can live alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to have > war in > this world. Now the judgement of God is upon us, and we must either > learn to > live together as brothers or we are all going to perish together as > fools." > > Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 > December 1967 > at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga. > > Well perish, yes - but maybe only due to Karma...>:-) > > > C: > Attraction of Celebrities > A man who is being delivered frim the danger of a fierce lion deos not > object, wheather this service is performed by an unknown or by an > illustrious individual. Why, therefore, do people seek knowledge from > celebrities ? > > D: > I think it was the sufi El-Ghazali (d.1111) who said something like > the > following: > The disticntion between opinion and knowledge is something, which can > easily > be lost. When this happens, > it is incumbent upon those who know the difference to make it plain > as far > as they are able. > This habit of confusing opinion with knowledge is almost a epidemic > disease > these days. > Well, that was years ago, but this issue seems to be a disease even > today. > > E: > It is allright that some people have authorities. But they have to be > constructive. If the authority is > destructive, then I won't be good and have to be stopped. > I could ask if any has an opinion on wheather any authorities today > are good > or bad, and I would probably get a lot of hands. > But if I ask about if any have the needed spiritual knowledge to > judged > wheather it is true, - I bet near all the hands will fall down - if > the > truth was to be presented. > > > Please rethink your positions... > > > from > M. sufilight with peace...peace...peace... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 5:07 PM > Subject: Theos-World Bhakti Ananda Goswami on the "Esoteric and > Science > News" website > > > > Dear Bhakti Ananda Goswami, > > > > Since you are announcing on Theos-Talk an article about HPB > published > > on the "Esoteric and Science News" website at > > , > > can you tell us who is the CURRENT editor of that website? > > > > In early to mid Nov. 2002, the editor of that site was still Brian > > Muehlebach, who had mysteriously taken over the editorship from > > Brigitte Muehlegger in Aug. 2002. > > > > But soon after Eldon Tucker "booted" Brian from Theos-Talk in the > > latter part of Nov., Brian's name as editor disappeared COMPLETELY > > from that website and Raphael Vishanu (Gregory Tillett should > > remember that name) became the editor. > > > > Go to the very bottom of the page at > > > > and see the link to "Editor". This link goes to > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/pic.html > > > > A week ago this link gave pictures apparently of R.V. Now the link > > is dead. But notice the pictures and the caption right above > > this "Editor" link. The caption reads: > > > > "This morning yours editor went out at six in the morning Dec. 24, > > 2002, and while my two children were putting rice in the monk's > bowls > > that they carry each morning from/to their monasteries, I took a few > > pictures for you. This is near the border of Burma/Thailand where we > > live surrounded by more than 100 acres of rice field (that are > worked > > entirely by hand). Picture to the left is when the light was just > > rising." > > > > Thailand?? > > > > Also I do not as of this morning see Raphael Vishanu's name listed > as > > editor anywhere on this homepage. In December his name as editor was > > on the homepage of the website. > > > > OBTW, I see a "mirror" site of "Esoteric and Science News" at: > > > > http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/ > > > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Jan 02 01:32:03 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 2 Jan 2003 09:32:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 51405 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2003 09:32:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2003 09:32:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2003 09:32:02 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a493ec.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.236]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F575262BFD for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:32:00 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <001001c2b240$dd6303a0$ec93a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World More reference? Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 10:25:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Thalprin and all of you, Thanks for your words Thalprin. Here are my views: Thalprin wrote: "The idea, of course, is to not only "avoid" being offended > (interesting choice/use of words) BUT to (as well) seek not to be > offensive towards others (to the best of one's abilities, of > course:) ....AND.... truly work to create/promote an atmosphere of > real peace, freedom and love!" My Sufilight answer: Exactly ! Others at Theos-Talk could learn from this for sure... So how do one seek to do that when writing emails ? It is here - the 'art' of writing steps in. I have to say, that at a place like this it is from time to time diffucult to avoid misunderstandings while writing emails. Thalprin wrote: "Different strokes for different folks,"... My Sufilight answer: Yes ! Thalprin wrote: "At surface love -yes- I think/feel I'm understanding you/your > intention and/or insinuations - thanks, sorry you feel this way." My Sufilight answer: What are you sorry about ? I don't understand. Be happy ! Insinuations, - no Thalprin. But information - and a design to learn from - yes. No I don't HAVE moles. But I would like them to get more enlightened. >:-) Yes my girlfriend has some trouble. I am not certain who should help her. Maybe I am already working on it...>:-) And let us remember, that emails sometimes acts as decoys, so to occupy the reader, so that the reader - is not somewhere else, where trouble might occur...>:-) from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 12:50 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World More reference? > Comments enclosed: > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" theosophy@a...> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Salam Aleikum, > > *:-)(#, > > > > Doing my very best... > > > > To Thalprin: > > No I am not offended. > > And where did you get that idea from ? The idea is to avoid such an > attitude > > as being offended. >:-) > > Good, glad to hear it! > > The idea, of course, is to not only "avoid" being offended > (interesting choice/use of words) BUT to (as well) seek not to be > offensive towards others (to the best of one's abilities, of > course:) ....AND.... truly work to create/promote an atmosphere of > real peace, freedom and love! > > > > > > Even a Master will in a certain sense have to learn how to learn. > There are > > levels of wisdom on the issue of learning how to learn... > > > > There is the timing. There is the place. There are the living > creatures, > > organisms - and humans involved etc...when learning how to learn. > > And also the design used plays its role. > > (Measuring the result of the design is also important, at least to > some.) > > > > There are the words used and their vibrations. The language used. > > ZZZ...IQIQIQ...ZZZ etc. > > > > But, but the student asks, when ?, where ?, who ?, what ?, what > design > > ?...??? > > "a Master" - "but, but, students" .... (that's funny and just so very > darn linear!) > > So, more jokes of insinuation - thanks, very enlightening. > > > > It has all to be spiritual. > > Some would say "use the force". > > Some would say "use the intuition". > > Some would say "use your head". > > Some would say "use your heart". > > Some would say "use your hands". > > > > And some would say "create harmony between all these". > > Then the answer will certainly come. > > Yes, I believe in harmony -this is the true way of the world- of > course, I also believe these are matters for actual sincerity and not > mere appearances of tongue. > > > > > ^/\^ ^/\^ > > ===<><>=== > > */\* > > > * > ** > *** > **** > > > > > > So why make a ridge into a mountain...? > > ....Why water a garden of plenty? > > > > > Sometimes Theosophists can be compared with the creature which > sometimes are > > referred to by the name "mole". > > http://virtual.clemson.edu/groups/newberry/common/moles.htm > > > > You see, they rarely surface. And they are almost as blind as > bats...>:-) > > Good thing you know so much about these matters - gots moles do ya? > Well, don't worry I hear they're blind as a bat so they'll probably > never notice no-thing anyways :) > > > > > > Silence and Love has a lot to do with each other. > > The wise only speak when it is proper. > > Silence works and can be very efficient - spiritually seen. > > From time to time silence is better than those so very long > Theosophical or > > should I say academic emails, > > which litters the serious spiritually interested students - > emailbox... > > Good thang you know what's bestest for others -err... "the serious > spiritually interested students" - now, if you could Just/manage to > insinuate/dictate Your Will more thoroughly - ?! > > "Different strokes for different folks," may be this is a phrase > worthy of studying yet. > > > > > > > > > There is LOVE at the surface... > > Surface LOVE is surface love... > > > > I stop here. > > At surface love -yes- I think/feel I'm understanding you/your > intention and/or insinuations - thanks, sorry you feel this way. > > > I will now privately return to my girlfriends problems... > > Sorry to hear your girlfriend's having problems. I do sincerely hope > things will work themselves out for her beautifully and effiencently. > > If you like I will say a prayer for you all/her. > > Have a BEAUTIFUL day, > > Terrie > > > > > > from > > M. Sufilight with a peace more...and some moles living near the > edge... > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 9:58 PM > > Subject: Re: Theos-World More reference? > > > > > > > Hi Global-theosophy, > > > > > > Comments enclosed: > > > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" > > theosophy@a...> wrote: > > > > Hi Thalprin and all of you, > > > > > > > > My views are here given in the below: > > > > > > > > Dear Thalprin: > > > > I thought I already had explained the - KEY - to understand the > > > persons > > > > (Helena Roerich, > > > > Olcott and Krishnamurti) mentioned below. > > > > I politely ask you --- is it now so: > > > > That you want me to explain it ALL - so to speak - to you about > > > those > > > > persons as well, so that you can escape developing your higher > > > bodies, right > > > > ? > > > > > > Dearie, perhaps, in having asked for references/links/info you > > > misinterpret/misconstrue my request in thinking I would ask you > > > to "explain" -further still, perhaps, your additional > > > assumptions/presumption about me personally and/or my own > > > developments/motives are (besides, being off-topic and/or out of > left- > > > field) unfounded, judgemental and/or more simply-put odd and mute. > > > > > > Perhaps, you are offended that I have/maintain my own opinions. > > > > > > > > > > > The next questions could then be on Annie Besant, C. W. > Leadbeater, > > > W. Q. > > > > Judge, Robert Crosbie, Purucker etc... > > > > > > > > To all of you: > > > > --- One should and ought to stop students continuing - dead- > letter > > > > reading --- > > > > --- One ought to teach students the importance of comparative > > > studies --- > > > > --- One ought to teach the students the importance of the 7 keys > > > mentioned > > > > by Blavatsky --- > > > > > > > > The students always says, that they want to learn. But - > learning > > > how to > > > > learn, has not so much their interest even if this is the topic > > > should be > > > > followed. > > > > > > > > I offer you (Thalprin and other readers) to read the > book "Learning > > > how to > > > > learn" and "The Way of the Sufis" by Idries Shah, that is - if > you > > > can get > > > > hold on them. > > > > > > That's funny! I take it you've read this book AND have thusly > > > learned how to learn. That's nice, and, none-the-less, thanks > very > > > much for the kindly suggestions, surely, I will keep these in > mind. > > > > > > > > > > 1. > > > > Idries Shah - a true Theosophists - who knew about the 7 keys > and > > > the > > > > teachings on Gupta Vidya: > > > > http://www.sufis.org/shahworks.html > > > > And because - some persons - on this list Theos-Talk needs to > have > > > more > > > > respect for the about 1.000.000 humans living as Muslims - the > > > following are > > > > recommended: > > > > 2. > > > > Sufism and Sufis, orders and Initiates: > > > > http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/Sufism.html > > > > 3. > > > > Early Sufi women: > > > > http://www.fonsvitae.com/earlysufi.html > > > > 4. > > > > Ibn Arabi - the greatest Sheik - the known as the Alchemist > Doctor > > > Maximus - > > > > (pure Gupta Vidya - with true knowledge on the 7 keys) > > > > http://www.ibnarabisociety.org/IbnArabi.html > > > > http://www.ibnarabisociety.org/articles/habashi_text.html (a > badly > > > > translated text) > > > > 5. > > > > Hazrat Inyat Khan - sufi and lecturer at various Theosophical > > > Societies: > > > > Online texts from an initiate: > > > > http://www.planet-interkom.de/friedrich.plesken/HIKe.htm > > > > > > > > I think people can agree that Hazrat inyat Khan was a true > > > Theosophists, so > > > > why can't they agree on Idries Shah ? > > > > Or can they ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Martin Luther King Jr. - a quote: > > > > > > > > "Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on > earth, our > > > > loyalties must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our > > > loyalties must > > > > transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and > this > > > means we > > > > must develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; > no > > > nation > > > > can live alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to > > > have war in > > > > this world. Now the judgement of God is upon us, and we must > either > > > learn to > > > > live together as brothers or we are all going to perish > together as > > > fools." > > > > > > > > Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 > > > December 1967 > > > > at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga. > > > > > > > > Well perish, yes - but maybe only due to Karma...>:-) > > > > > > > > > > Ha! That's funnier yet! You know what they say: "Karma is as > Karma > > > does or was or will be" ! > > > > > > Have a BEAUTIFUL day, > > > > > > Terrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from > > > > M. sufilight with peace... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 1:00 AM > > > > Subject: Theos-World More reference? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > If it's no bother, Dallas, Daniel, Morton could you provide > more > > > > > info/reference/links about the works/efforts of Helena > Roerich, > > > > > Olcott and Krishnamurti? > > > > > > > > > > I'd be interested in better understanding the explorations > and/or > > > > > efforts of these folks. > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > Terrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Jan 02 01:51:23 2003 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 2 Jan 2003 09:51:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 53345 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2003 09:51:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2003 09:51:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m08.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.163) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jan 2003 09:51:22 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.13.164658f6 (4238) for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2003 04:51:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <13.164658f6.2b456594@aol.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 04:51:16 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Being put in "one's place" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Dear Paul, I'm sure you didn't address your letter specifically to me. But, I'm=20 answering it anyway, since you did mention my name (with a sidewise innuend= o)=20 by association with others whom, I take it, don't entirely agree with you. = =20 Before this, it didn't even occur to me why not. But after reading your la= st=20 several posts, and digging into what you have to say about theosophy and it= s=20 teachers, I realize now why some new comers might have confused you with=20 Brian/Bri. :-)=20=20 So, please notice that my recent letter which I assume you referred to --=20 while written for the purposes of offering a few tips for theosophical=20 students, as well as clearing up matters (for everyone) about HPB and her=20 teachings (that you, apparently, along with some other unnamed theosophy=20 bashers have indirectly damned by attacking her and other theosophical=20 leaders' personal faults or personal agendas) -- was, intentionally, not=20 addressed to you. (Who am I to teach you anything about theosophical=20 metaphysics?) Although, I did, in fact, quote, and spoke directly to the=20 "scornful" letter you wrote in response to Terrie. So, I don't suppose fro= m=20 your point of view that there could be any question about who, among other= =20 HPB bashers, I might have been referring to. But, how can writing such a=20 letter be "behind (someone's) back" -- when "everyone" referred to, either= =20 directly or indirectly, is a signed on member of this group of=20 correspondents?=20=20 I could just as well say, if I only read letters addressed to me, that you= =20 mentioned my name in a "scornful" light "behind my back." But, then, I hav= e=20 nothing to defend. And, this is a public forum, isn't it? You should also= =20 know that if one takes an abstract nameless inference personally, and over= =20 reactively counterattacks on a personal level, in the same manner that one = is=20 complaining about, it could make others think that where there's smoke=20 there's fire. Also, sometimes, implication without naming names is useful = in=20 drawing out those who have a basic antagonism to a group or a subject of s tudy, giving them an opportunity to show their true colors. That was not my= =20 conscious intention (this time :-) -- but if my generalized hypothetical=20 question was taken as referring to you personally, and is what ticked you o= ff=20 into this self defensive diatribe, all well and good.=20=20 If this reaction is typical of the way you conduct and form conclusions abo= ut=20 theosophy and its teachers based on your historical research, it could be=20 that the opposition you find in these online forums is your own doing. I'm= =20 sure the people who surround you in your home town and seem to love you so= =20 much do not have to face the same sort of abuse you have been slinging towa= rd=20 some of us and the studies we are here to talk about. I'm sure if you so=20 carefully ripped apart, publically, the phoniness and frauds of the Christi= an=20 religious belief system and its promoters, as well as implying the=20 foolishness of "believers" whom you know in "real life," as thoroughly as y= ou=20 tackled theosophy, you wouldn't find such a "loving" atmosphere around you = in=20 SC or VA. While I cannot say, based on any objective evidence, whether you= r=20 judgments about the theosophical Masters and teachers (and as indirectly=20 implied, the invalidity of their teachings) are right or wrong, you certain= ly=20 should understand that such response to your conclusions and opinions that= =20 you continue to provoke here, goes with the territory. If one can't take=20