From teos9@aol.com Sat Dec 28 04:46:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 12:46:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 22565 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 12:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 12:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 12:46:17 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.14b.1982cf96 (4238) for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 07:46:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <14b.1982cf96.2b3ef716@aol.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 07:46:14 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:HPB and the Nazi doctrines To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 From: teos9@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=31608821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Zack. Thanks for the research on Bailey's use of the word Nazi throughout her collected works. Although, It has been many years since I studied the 24 volumes of the Bailey material, I too, cannot recall specific anti Semitic commentary by Bailey or DK, within the overall CONTEXT of those works. There are plenty of interpretations and opinions about the anti Semitism found in the Bailey works, none of which, I have found to be well studied and in context of the whole work. It would be interesting to see the results of a search of your CD, using the word "Jews" as the search term. Added to your search on the word Nazi, that might go a long way to putting an end to this unending and unscholarly discussion. Where and when will you be giving your talk? Louis In a message dated 12/28/2002 7:06:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, zackl@sprynet.com writes: > Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > >Bailey wrote numerous articles, as well. > > >Zack Lansdowne wrote: > >> I have the complete set of Alice Bailey's 24 books on CD-ROM, and so I > >> decided to check the accuracy of Bart's claim that Alice Bailey "made > >> a number of statements supportive of the Nazi's." By doing a search > >> on the word "Nazi", I learned that Bailey, in her books, used this > >> word exactly nine times. > > >She did change her tune after the Nazi's went to war with England (at > >least officially). Are the so-called "yellow" (non-channeled) books > >included in your collection (in particular, PROBLEMS OF HUMANITY)?" > > > Details of my Bailey CD can be found on the Lucis Trust website > (http://www.lucistrust.org/) where it can be purchased. This CD > collection > includes the following 24 books: > > Initiation, Human and Solar > bethThe Reappearance of the Christ > Letters on Occult Meditation > The Destiny of the Nations > The Consciousness of the Atom > Glamour: A World Problem > A Treatise on Cosmic Fire > Telepathy and the Etheric Vehicle > The Light of the Soul > Education in the New Age > The Soul and Its Mechanism > The Externalisation of the Hierarchy > The Unfinished Autobiography > Discipleship in the New Age, Vol. I > Discipleship in the New Age, Vol. II > Esoteric Psychology, Vol. I > From Intellect to Intuition > Esoteric Psychology, Vol. II > A Treatise on White Magic > Esoteric Astrology > From Bethlehem to Calvary > Esoteric Healing > Problems of Humanity > The Rays and the Initiations > > > As Bart mentioned, some of the Alice Bailey books are said to channeled, > allegedly written by "The Tibetan" or the "Master Djwhal Khul." Others of > her books are said to be of her own composition, such as the "The > Unfinished > Autobiography." This CD collection of 24 books contains all of her books > in > both categories, including "Problems of Humanity." > > My favorite Bailey books are "A Treatise on White Magic" and "Esoteric > Healing." In April 2003 I will present a talk on "Esoteric Healing and > Modern Medicine" at a conference on science and spirituality. In this > talk, > I will present the key principles from Bailey's "Esoteric Healing" for > several complementary or alternative therapies, and will also discuss the > impact of these therapies on modern medicine as practiced today in the > United States. > > Zack Lansdowne > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 28 05:25:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 51468 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:21 -0000 Received: from pool0103.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.103] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SGxr-00032b-00; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:25:20 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:21:08 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2002 Dear John: I have a copy of H P B SPEAKS Vol. II with me and have referred to it. H P B says nothing directly concerning herself, "hermaphroditism" and her "virginity." She does protest clearly the defamation made on several counts ( having lovers, swindling, theft) by a "Lady-in-waiting: O. Smirnoff " to Prince M. Dondoukoff-Korsakov, Commander in Chief in the Caucasus ( June 3, 1884 ) pp. 142 - 159 refer to this in detail. H P B and her family were known by the Prince for many years. She specially protests some defamatory statements made concerning her sister by this same writer. She asks that her reputation be reviewed and a certificate of facts known to him and investigated by the local police in Tiflis and Odessa, be sent to her in Paris, C/o Mme. de Barrau, Rue Varenne 51, As I recall, when ill in Ostende (1886), before going to London at the request of her friends, she was examined by a doctor and he made the statement that she was congenitally incapable of bearing children, and had never born any, etc... Countess Wachmeister in her REMINISCENCES mentions this. This is also mentioned and referenced with documents, in Sylvia Cranston's recent biography of H P B. "THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE OF Mme. HELENA BLAVATSKY." Best wishes, Dallas =============================== -----Original Message----- From: samblo Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 11:48 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism Paul, Yes, there all all those contentions, but I might add that in Vol II "H P B Speaks" Madame Blavatsky in firmest declaritive states she never consummated her Marriage and yet remained chaste as in virginal. I have been searching for the text I mentioned but so far am still looking as it has been over 10 years since I read it. I now seem to think in my memory it was in regard to a suitor in Egypt who she pushed away that the statement she made is to be found, but this may change as I refresh more. John Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 28 05:25:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 93017 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from pool0103.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.103] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SGy7-00032b-00; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:25:35 -0800 To: Subject: RE: H P B and Theosophical Philosophy Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:21:11 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <20021228084105.45300.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2002 Dear Mic: Re: Concerning the study of Philosophy at the University level At the risk of being thrown out of court, let me offer you to read if you have not already a synopsis of Theosophical Philosophy. And ask you to compare it with the description you make of philosophy taught at college. I recall going through a somewhat similar experience (40s) at Bombay University. I switched to Science. This made sense to me and also gave me a "starting point." Inquire, inquire and seek the source and base of any observation or statement made. Continually ask WHY. The theories and hypotheses are constructs. They are hopes and imaginings. What trust can we give to their actuality? We have to confine our study to observation and common sense, not speculate on anything which we are not directly cognizant of. There has to be honesty and sincerity, and rigorous logic. Best wishes, Dallas see what you think of this: -------------------- THEOSOPHY GENERALLY STATED The claim is made that an impartial study of history, religion and literature will show the existence from ancient times of a great body of philosophical, scientific and ethical doctrine forming the basis and origin of all similar thought in modern systems. It is at once religious and scientific, asserting that religion and science should never be separated. It puts forward sublime religious and ideal teachings, but at the same time shows that all of it can be demonstrated to reason, and that authority other than that has no place, thus preventing the hypocrisy which arises from asserting dogmas on authority which no one can show as resting on reason. This ancient body of doctrine is known as the "Wisdom Religion" and was always taught by adepts or initiates therein who preserve it through all time. Hence, and from other doctrines demonstrated, it is shown that man, being spirit and immortal, is able to perpetuate his real life and consciousness, and has done so during all time in the persons of those higher flowers of the human race who are members of an ancient and high brotherhood who concern themselves with the soul development of man, held by them to include every process of evolution on all planes. The initiates, being bound by the law of evolution, must work with humanity as its development permits. Therefore from time to time they give out again and again the same doctrine which from time to time grows obscured in various nations and places. This is the wisdom religion, and they are the keepers of it. At times they come to nations as great teachers and "saviours," who only re-promulgate the old truths and system of ethics. This therefore holds that humanity is capable of infinite perfection both in time and quality, the saviours and adepts being held up as examples of that possibility. >From this living and presently acting body of perfected men H. P. Blavatsky declared she received the impulse to once more bring forward the old ideas, and from them also received several keys to ancient and modern doctrines that had been lost during modern struggles toward civilization, and also that she was furnished by them with some doctrines really ancient but entirely new to the present day in any exoteric shape. These she wrote among the other keys furnished by her to her fellow members and the world at large. Added, then, to the testimony through all time found in records of all nations we have this modern explicit assertion that the ancient learned and humanitarian body of adepts still exists on this earth and takes an interest in the development of the race. Theosophy postulates an eternal principle called the unknown, which can never be cognized except through its manifestations. This eternal principle is in and is every thing and being; t periodically and eternally manifests itself and recedes again from manifestation. In this ebb and flow evolution proceeds and itself is the progress of the manifestation. The perceived universe is the manifestation of this unknown, including spirit and matter, for Theosophy holds that those are but the two opposite poles of the one unknown principle. They coexist, are not separate nor separable from each other, or, as the Hindu scriptures say, there is no particle of matter without spirit, and no particle of spirit without matter. In manifesting itself the spirit-matter differentiates on seven planes, each more dense on the way down to the plane of our senses than its predecessors the substance in all being the same, only differing in degree. Therefore from this view the whole universe is alive, not one atom of it being in any sense dead. It is also conscious and intelligent, its consciousness and intelligence being resent on all planes though obscured on this one. On this plane of ours the spirit focalizes itself in all human beings who choose to permit it to do so, and the refusal to permit it is the cause of ignorance, of sin. of all sorrow and suffering. In all ages some have come to this high state, have grown to be as gods, are partakers actively in the work of nature, and go on from century to century widening their consciousness and increasing the scope of their government in nature. This is the destiny of all beings, and hence at the outset Theosophy postulates this perfectibility of the race, removes the idea of innate un-regenerable wickedness, and offers a purpose and an aim for life which is consonant with the longings of the soul and with its real nature, tending at the same time to destroy pessimism with its companion, despair. In Theosophy the world is held to be the product of the evolution of the principle spoken of from the very lowest first forms of life guided as it proceeded by intelligent perfected beings from other and older evolutions, and compounded also of the egos or individual spirits for and by whom it emanates. Hence man as we know him is held to be a conscious spirit, the flower of evolution, with other and lower classes of egos below him in the lower kingdoms, all however coming up and destined one day to be on the same human stage as we now are, we then being higher still. Man's consciousness being thus more perfect is able to pass from one to another of the planes of differentiation mentioned. If he mistakes any one of them for the reality that he is in his essence, he is deluded; the object of evolution then is to give him complete self-consciousness so that he may go on to higher stages in the progress of the universe. His evolution after coming on the human stage is for the getting of experience, and in order to so raise up and purify the various planes of matter with which he has to do, that the voice of the spirit may be fully heard and comprehended. He is a religious being because he is a spirit encased in matter, which is in turn itself spiritual in essence. Being a spirit he requires vehicles with which to come in touch with all the planes of nature included in evolution, and it is these vehicles that make of him an intricate, composite being, liable to error, but at the same time able to rise above all delusions and conquer the highest place. He is in miniature the universe, for he is as spirit, manifesting himself to himself by means of seven differentiations. Therefore is he known in Theosophy as a sevenfold being. The Christian division of body, soul, and spirit is accurate so far as it goes, but will not answer to the problems of life and nature, unless, as is not the case, those three divisions are each held to be composed of others, which would raise the possible total to seven. The spirit stands alone at the top, next comes the spiritual soul or Buddhi as it is called in Sanskrit. This partakes more of the spirit than any below it, and is connected with Manas or mind, these three being the real trinity of man, the imperishable part, the real thinking entity living on the earth in the other and denser vehicles by its evolution. Below in order of quality is the plane of the desires and passions shared with the animal kingdom, unintelligent, and the producer of ignorance flowing from delusion. It is distinct from the will and judgment, and must therefore be given its own place. On this plane is gross life, manifesting, not as spirit from which it derives its essence, but as energy and motion on this plane. It being common to the whole objective plane and being everywhere, is also to be classed by itself, the portion used by man being given up at the death of the body. Then last, before the objective body, is the model or double of the outer physical case. This double is the astral body belonging to the astral plane of matter, not so dense as physical molecules, but more tenuous and much stronger, as well as lasting. It is the original of the body permitting the physical molecules to arrange and show themselves thereon, allowing them to go and come from day to day as they are known to do, yet ever retaining the fixed shape and contour given by the astral double within. These lower four principles or sheaths are the transitory perishable part of man, not himself, but in every sense the instrument he uses, given up at the hour of death like an old garment, and rebuilt out of the general reservoir at every new birth. The trinity is the real man, the thinker, the individuality that passes from house to house, gaining experience at each rebirth, while it suffers and enjoys according to its deeds--it is the one central man, the living spirit-soul. Now this spiritual man, having always existed, being intimately concerned in evolution, dominated by the law of cause and effect, because in himself he is that very law, showing moreover on this plane varieties of force of character, capacity, and opportunity, his very presence must be explained, while the differences noted have to be accounted for. The doctrine of reincarnation does all this. It means that man as a thinker, composed of soul, mind and spirit, occupies body after body in life after life on the earth which is the scene of his evolution, and where he must, under the very laws of his being, complete that evolution, once it has been begun. In any one life he is known to others as a personality, but in the whole stretch of eternity he is one individual, feeling in himself an identity not dependent on name, form, or recollection. This doctrine is the very base of Theosophy, for it explains life and nature. It is one aspect of evolution, for as it is reembodiment in meaning, and as evolution could not go on without reembodiment, it is evolution itself, as applied to the human soul. But it is also a doctrine believed in at the time given to Jesus and taught in the early ages of Christianity, being now as much necessary to that religion as it is to any other to explain texts, to reconcile the justice of God with the rough and merciless aspect of nature and life to most mortals, and to throw a light perceptible by reason on all the problems that vex us in our journey through this world. The vast, and under any other doctrine unjust, difference between the savage and the civilized man as to both capacity, character, and opportunity can be understood only through this doctrine, and coming to our own stratum the differences of the same kind may only thus be explained. It vindicates Nature and God, and removes from religion the blot thrown by men who have postulated creeds which paint the creator as a demon. Each man's life and character are the outcome of his previous lives and thoughts. Each is his own judge, his own executioner, for it is his own hand that forges the weapon which works for his punishment, and each by his own life reaches reward, rises to heights of knowledge and power for the good of all who may be left behind him. Nothing is left to chance, favour, or partiality, but all is under the governance of law. Man is a thinker, and by his thoughts he makes the causes for woe or bliss; for his thoughts produce his acts. He is the centre for any disturbance of the universal harmony, and to him as the centre, the disturbance must return so as to bring about equilibrium; for nature always works towards harmony. Man is always carrying on a series of thoughts, which extend back to the remote past, continually making action and reaction. He is thus responsible for all his thoughts and acts, and in that his complete responsibility is established; his own spirit is the essence of this law and provides for ever compensation for every disturbance and adjustment for all effects. This is the law of Karma or justice, sometimes called the ethical law of causation. It is not foreign to the Christian scriptures, for both Jesus and St. Paul clearly enunciated it. Jesus said we should be judged as we gave judgment and should receive the measure meted to others. St. Paul said: "Brethren, be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth that also shall he reap." And that sowing and reaping can only be possible under the doctrines of Karma and reincarnation. But what of death and after? Is heaven a place or is it not? Theosophy teaches, as may be found in all sacred books, that after death the soul reaps a rest. This is from its own nature. It is a thinker, and cannot during life fulfill and carry out all nor even a small part of the myriads of thoughts entertained. Hence when at death it casts off the body and the astral body, and is released from the passions and desires, its natural forces have immediate sway and it thinks its thoughts out on the soul plane, clothed in a finer body suitable to that existence. This is called Devachan. It is the very state that has brought about the descriptions of heaven common to all religions, but this doctrine is very clearly put in the Buddhist and Hindu religions. It is a time of rest, because the physical body being absent the consciousness is not in the completer touch with visible nature which is possible on the material plane. But it is a real existence, and no more illusionary than earth life; it is where the essence of the thoughts of life that were as high as character permitted, expands and is garnered by the soul and mind. When the force of these thoughts is fully exhausted the soul is drawn back once more to earth, to that environment which is sufficiently like unto itself to give it the proper further evolution. This alternation from state to state goes on until the being rises from repeated experiences above ignorance, and realizes in itself the actual unity of all spiritual beings. Then it passes on to higher and greater steps on the evolutionary road. No new ethics are presented by Theosophy, as it is held that right ethics are for ever the same. But in the doctrines of Theosophy are to be found the philosophical and reasonable basis for ethics and the natural enforcement of them in practice. Universal brotherhood is that which will result in doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, and in your loving your neighbour as yourself--declared as right by all teachers in the great religions of the world. WILLIAM Q. JUDGE December 1893 L. ======================================= =================== -----Original Message----- From: Mic Forster [mailto:micforster@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 12:41 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism TYPO CORRECTED AND CLARIFICATION Thanks Etzion, just making sure we are all still on the ball. But I'm a scientist at heart and before I can be convinced of something I really need tangible proof (well something close to tangible anyway). At the beginning of this year at university I decided to do some extra subjects and consequently I undertook philosophy. Well I enjoyed the lectures but after one tutorial I chucked it in with sheer frustration. Those guys couldn't make up their minds on anything!!! From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 28 05:25:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 21061 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from pool0103.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.103] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SGyC-00032b-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:25:40 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:21:29 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <21.2959819c.2b3eaf56@cs.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2002 Did you ever read Emanuel Velikovsky 's book (1940s) on the missing historical periods and dynasties of Egypt? Dal. ============ -----Original Message----- From: samblo@cs.com [mailto:samblo@cs.com] Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 11:40 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines Steve, The permutations from Pharoah Ahmasis to Ahmoses to Amoses to Moses is an interesting linguistist idiosyncracy. John From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 28 05:34:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 13:34:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 10748 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 13:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 13:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 13:34:18 -0000 Received: from pool0103.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.103] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SH6Q-0000Wm-00; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:34:10 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Theos-World: "root races" Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:29:27 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <009101c2ae50$688d42a0$fbd30b3f@idapingala> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2002 Dear Friends: Re: Root Races etc... in Theosophical Texts I found that the best source on this is to take The SECRET DOCTRINE and a good INDEX, and then trace down all the information there. The Theosophical use of the word "race" has nothing to do with the color of the skin, or of physiological heredity. Only those who have not delved into the Theosophical teachings (or rather the HISTORY) of the development of mankind in (for us) pre-historical periods have vague ideas as to what is meant. One of the best guides is the following synopsis: -------------------- ROUNDS AND RACES THEOSOPHY A BODY OF KNOWLEDGE (General basis) Theosophy is that ocean of knowledge which spreads from shore to shore of the evolution of sentient beings; unfathomable in its deepest parts, it gives the greatest minds their fullest scope, yet, shallow enough at its shores, it will not overwhelm the understanding of a child. It is Wisdom, for it is the science of sciences. It is therefore complete in itself and sees no unsolvable mystery anywhere. It throws the word coincidence out of its vocabulary. It hails the reign of law in everything and every circumstance. It is a knowledge of the laws which govern the evolution of the physical, astral, psychical, and intellectual constituents of nature and of man. Theosophy knows that the whole is constituted of the visible and the invisible, and perceiving outer things and objects to be transitory, it grasps the facts of nature, both without and within. The vast array of objects and men are not mere collections of atoms fortuitously thrown together and thus without law evolving law, but down to the smallest atom all is soul and spirit ever evolving under the rule of law which is inherent in the whole. Theosophy teaches that the course of evolution is the drama of the soul and that nature exists for no other purpose than the soul's experience. SCALES OF INTELLIGENCE -- THE SAGES The Theosophist agrees that there must be beings in the universe whose intelligence is much beyond ours, and those possessing such advanced intelligence take an active and cooperative part in the government of the natural order of things. They are the active, and wise assistants of Nature, [the UNIVERSE] as a whole. The Theosophist adds that such Wise Sages are Intelligences which were once human, and came like all of us from other and previous worlds. The most intelligent being in the universe, man, has never, been without a friend, but has a line of Elder Brothers who continually watch over our progress, preserve the knowledge gained through aeons of trial and experience, and continually seek for opportunities of drawing the developing intelligence of the race to consider the great truths concerning the destiny of the soul. UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION -- ITS RECORDS This immense reach of the evolutionary system means, that this planet on which we now are, is the result of the activity and the evolution of some earlier one that died long ago. It left its energy to be used in the bringing into existence the earth. Further, the inhabitants of the Earth, in their turn, came from some older world. They are now proceeding with their destined work in the "matter" we are familiar with here. The Elder Brothers of the human race, keep the knowledge they have gained of the laws of nature in all departments, and are ready when cyclic law permits to use it for the benefit of mankind. They have always existed as a body, all knowing each other, no matter in what part of the world they may be, and all working for the race in many different ways. [see ISIS UNVEILED, Vol. 2, pp. 98-103] They have stood by the cradle of nations and seen the vast achievements of the ancients, watched sadly the decay of those who had no power to resist the cyclic law of rise and fall; and while cataclysms seemed to show a universal destruction of art, architecture, religion, and philosophy, they have preserved the records of it all in places secure from the ravages of either men or time. They have made minute observations, through trained psychics among their own order, into the unseen realms of nature and of mind, recorded the observations, and have preserved the record. And, greater feat than all -- one which implies a knowledge of the very foundations of nature -- they know what the ultimate divisions of time are and what are the meaning and the times of the cycles. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I, pp. 272-3 ] CYCLES OF KNOWLEDGE AND EVOLUTION Under cyclic law, during a dark period in the history of mind, the true philosophy disappears for a time, but the same law causes it to reappear. It is the Master's work to preserve the true philosophy, but the help of the companions is needed to rediscover and promulgate it. The periods, when out of the Great Unknown there comes forth the visible universes, are eternal in their coming and going. These alternate with equal periods of silence and rest in that Unknown. The object of these mighty waves is the production of Perfect Man, the evolution of Soul, and they always witness the increase of the number of Elder Brothers. THEOSOPHY DEALS WITH OUR EARTH IN THE UNIVERSE The teachings of Theosophy deal for the present with our earth, although its purview extends to all the worlds, since no part of the manifested universe is outside the single body of laws which operate upon us. Our globe being one of the solar system is certainly connected with other planets, but as the great human family has to remain with its material vehicle -- the earth -- until all the units of the race which are ready, are perfected, the evolution of that family is of greater importance to the members of it. SEVEN-FOLD NATURE AND MAN -- " 7 PRINCIPLES" The universe evolves from the unknown, on seven planes, and in seven ways in all worlds. And this sevenfold differentiation causes all the worlds of the universe, and the beings thereon, to have a septenary constitution. The divisions of the sevenfold universe may be laid down roughly as: The Absolute, Spirit, Mind, Matter, Will, Akasa or AEther, and Life. In place of "the Absolute" we can use the word "Space." For "Space" is that which ever is, and in which all manifestation must take place. Our knowledge begins with differentiation, and all manifested objects, beings, or powers are only differentiations of the Great Unknown. The most that can be said of the Absolute" is that IT periodically differentiates itself, and periodically withdraws the differentiated into itself. As to "the Absolute," we can do no more than say IT IS. None of the Great Teachers of the School ascribe qualities to "the Absolute," although all qualities exist in It. The first differentiation -- speaking metaphysically as to time -- is Spirit, with which appears Matter and Mind. This is a Unit, and, called the "Monad." [ In manifestation, it is a triune Unity, consisting of: ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS, or, Spirit - Wisdom - Mind] The Monad is held to be immortal throughout the great life-cycle, whether Manvantara or Kalpa. It is the basis for human Individuality. The term "Akasa," taken from the Sanskrit, is used in place of AEther, to properly designate that tenuous state of matter which is now sometimes called "Ether" by modern science. Akasa is produced from Matter and Spirit. Will is the force of Spirit in action. And Life (Jiva) is a resultant of the action of Akasa, moved by Spirit, upon Matter. But the Matter here spoken of, is not that which is commonly known as such. It is the Real Matter which is always invisible, and has sometimes been called Primordial Matter. In the Brahmanical system it is called "Mulaprakriti" (or "Root Matter"). And it is sometimes referred to as "Maha-Buddhi." [In considering this, one may think of an "atom" as essentially an eternal, individualized field of electro-magnetic Force. Physical material is condensed in and around it by attraction. The formation of worlds, and the reincarnation of human Souls, may be thought of in similar terms, and follow a similar pattern.] The ancient teaching always held, as is now admitted by Science, that we see or perceive only the phenomena but not the essential nature, cause or being of Matter. UNIVERSAL PLAN OF MANIFESTATION Mind (the Universal Mind or Mahat) is the intelligent part of the Cosmos. In the collection of seven differentiations roughly sketched above, Universal Mind is that in which the Plan of the Cosmos is fixed or contained. This Plan is brought over from a prior period of manifestation, which added to its ever-increasing perfectness as it proceeds. No limit can be set to its evolutionary possibilities in perfectness, because, as there was never any beginning to the periodical manifestations of "the Absolute," there never will be an end, but forever the going forth and withdrawing into the Unknown will go on. Wherever a world or system of worlds is evolving there the Plan has been laid down in Universal Mind, the original force comes from Spirit, the basis is Matter -- which is in fact invisible -- Life sustains all the forms, and Akasa is the connecting link between Matter on one side and Spirit-Mind on the other. END OF A CYCLE -- CATACLYSMS - DELUGES When a world or a system comes to the end of certain great cycles, men record a cataclysm in history or tradition. These universal traditions abound, all pointing to early teaching and dim recollection of periodical destructions and renovations. Just as there are periodical minor cataclysms or partial destructions, so, the doctrine holds, there is, as a prototype, the universal evolution and involution. Forever the Great Breath goes forth and returns again. As it proceeds outwards, objects, worlds and men appear; as it recedes all disappear into the original source. This is the waking and the sleeping of the "Great Being;" and is symbolized as the "Day" and the "Night" of Brahma. It is the prototype of our waking days and sleeping nights as men, and, of our disappearance at the end of one short human life, and, it also implies our return (through reincarnation) to take up our unfinished work in a new body, in a new day. HOW OLD IS OUR EARTH? The real age of the world has long been involved in doubt for Western investigators, who up to the present have shown unwillingness to take instruction from the records of Oriental people much older than the West. Yet with the Orientals is the truth about the matter. EVOLUTION RECORDED IN BRAHMANICAL RECORDS No mind can comprehend the "Infinite and Absolute Unknown," which IS, has no beginning and shall have no end; which IS both last and first, because, whether differentiated or withdrawn into ITSELF, IT ever is. This is the "God" spoken of as the one around whose pavilion there is darkness. This cosmic and human chronology of the Hindus may still be laughed at by western Orientalists and Scientists, yet they can furnish nothing better and are continually disagreeing with each other on the same subject. As years pass since Theosophy was promulgated, Science has come closer in their estimates to the figures of the Oriental chronology. The Brahmanical records of Hindustan, and their doctrine about the days, nights, years and life of Brahma, who representing the universe and the worlds, at once upset the interpretation so long given to the Mosaic tradition, insofar as time is concerned. The Day of Brahma is said to last one thousand years, and his night is of equal length. This may be construed to be a statement of the periodical coming forth, for great days and nights of equal length of the universe of manifested worlds. A Day of Brahma is made up of what are called Manvantaras -- or period between two men -- fourteen in number. These include four billion three hundred and twenty million mortal, or earth years, which is one Day of Brahma. [4,320,000,000 years] And Brahma's "Night" is of similar duration, when all is periodically withdrawn into the "Unknown Absolute." When this day opens, cosmic evolution, so far as relates to this solar system, begins and occupies between one and two billions of years in evolving the very ethereal first matter before the astral kingdoms of mineral, vegetable, animal and men are possible. PLANS AND MATERIAL IN EVOLUTION In these the, very distant and very silent past, Man could not have his bodily temple to live in, until all the matter in and about his world had been found by the Master, the spiritual and eternal Inner Man. Once found, the plans for working it required to be carried out in detail, until all the parts should be perfectly ready and fit for placing in the final structure. This is the gradual coming forth of the known and heterogeneous from the unknown and homogeneous. The ancient Egyptian and Hindu Theosophists never admitted a creation out of nothing, but ever strenuously insisted upon evolution, by gradual stages. All the various powers and potentialities needed, had to be well worked out in this slow but sure process. At last man is put upon the scene: a sevenfold being, a miniature of the universe and earth, which are sevenfold. Each of Man's seven principles is derived from one of the great first seven divisions. And each relates to a planet, by analogy, or a scene of evolution; and to a race in which that evolution was carried out. So the first sevenfold differentiation is important to be borne in mind, since it is the basis of all that follows; just as the universal evolution is septenary so the evolution of humanity, sevenfold in its constitution, is carried out upon a septenary Earth. This is spoken of in Theosophical literature as the Sevenfold Planetary Chain, and is intimately connected with Man's special evolution. [see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I, pp. 570-574] CONSOLIDATION OF MATERIALS AND FORMS This second step takes some three hundred millions of years, and then still more material processes go forward for the production of the tangible (physical matter) kingdoms of nature, including man. This covers over one and one-half billions of years. And the number of solar years included in the present "human" period is over eighteen millions of years. [SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I, pp. 150, footnote] During all these ages before man's physical body came into being, evolution was carrying on the work of perfecting various powers which are now our possession. This was accomplished by the Ego or Real Man going through experience in countless conditions of matter, all different one from the other, and the same plan in general was and is pursued as prevails in respect to the general evolution of the universe. That is, details were first worked out in spheres of being very ethereal, metaphysical, in fact. Then the next step brought the same details to be worked out on a plane of matter a little more dense, until at last it could be done on our present plane of what we miscall "gross matter." This is called the "descent of Spirit into Matter." When the rough work was completed, when the human "temple" was erected, many more ages were required for all the servants, and the councilors to learn their parts, so that man, the Master, might be able to use the physical temple for its best and highest purposes. Theosophy alone, inclusive of all systems and every experience, gives the key, the plan, the doctrine, the truth of these great natural processes. To state it in another way. The Plan comes first in the Universal Mind, after which the astral model or basis is made, and when that astral model is completed, the whole process is gone over so as to condense the matter, up to the middle of the Fourth Round. In the vast stretch of time which began after the first almost intangible matter had been gathered and kneaded, the material and vegetable kingdoms had sole possession here with the Master -- man -- who was hidden from sight, within, carrying forward the plans for the foundations of the human temple. All of this requires many, many ages, since we know that nature never leaps. It is stated that the stream of Monads begins first to work up the mass of matter in what are called elemental conditions when all is gaseous or fiery. For the ancient and true theory is that no evolution is possible without the "Monads" as the innumerable vivifying agents. In this first stage there is no animal or vegetable. Next comes the mineral when the whole mass hardens, the Monads being all imprisoned within. Then the first Monads emerge into vegetable forms which they construct themselves, and no animals yet appear. Next the first class of Monads emerges from the vegetable and gradually produce the animal forms. Then, the human astral and shadowy model is constructed, and we have minerals, vegetables, animals and future men, for the second and later classes are still evolving in the lower kingdoms. Upon this earth and upon the whole chain of Globes of which it is a part seven races of men appeared simultaneously, coming over to it from other globes of an older chain. And in respect to this earth -- the fourth of this chain -- these seven races came simultaneously from another Globe of this chain. This appearance of seven races together happens in the first and in part of the second Round of the globes. In the second round the seven masses of beings are amalgamated, and their destiny after that is to slowly differentiate during the succeeding rounds until at the seventh round the seven first great races will be once more distinct, as perfect types of the human race as this period of evolution will allow. At the present time the seven races are mixed together, and representatives of all are in the many so-called races of men as classified by our present science. The object of this amalgamation and subsequent differentiation is to give to every race the benefit of the progress and power of the whole derived from prior progress in other planets and systems. For Nature never does her work in a hasty or undue fashion, but, by the sure method of mixture, precipitation, and separation, brings about the greatest perfection. And this method was one known to the Alchemists, though not fully understood in all its bearings even by them. But there is no vagueness on the point that seven great "Races, or types" have to evolve here on this planet, and that the entire collection of races has to go seven times round the whole series of seven Globes. When the middle of the Fourth Round is reached no more Monads emerge into the human stage, and will not until a new planetary mass, reincarnated from ours, is made. This is the whole process roughly given, but with many details left out, for in one of the Rounds man appears before the animals. But this detail need lead to no confusion. What has become at last "man" is of vastly greater age, for before the present two sexes appeared, the human creature was sometimes of one shape and sometimes of another, until the whole plan had been fully worked out into our present form, function, and capacity. This is found referred to in ancient books, where man is said to have been at one time globular in shape. This was at a time when the conditions favored such a form, and of course, it was longer ago than eighteen millions of years. And when this globular form was the rule, the sexes as we know them, had not differentiated and hence there was but one sex, or if one prefers, no sex at all. Human beings did not appear here in two sexes first. The first were of no sex, then they altered into hermaphrodite, and lastly separated into male and female. And this separation into male and female for human beings was over 18,000,000 years ago. For that reason is it said, in these ancient schools, that our humanity is 18,000,000 years old and a little over. SENSES OF PERCEPTION AND ACTION In these early conditions and states, the senses existed in germ, as it were, or in idea, until the astral plane which is next to this one was first arrived at, and then they were concentrated so as to become the actual senses we now use through the agency of the outer physical organs. These outer organs of sight, touch and hearing, smelling and tasting, are often mistaken by the unlearned or the thoughtless for the real organs and senses; but he who stops to think, must see that the senses are interior, and that their outer organs are but mediators, or links, between the visible universe and the real perceiver within. MONADIC EVOLUTION Considering our Earth, the view put forward by Theosophy regarding its genesis, its evolution and the evolution of the Human, Animal and other Monads, is quite different from modern ideas, and in some things contrary to accepted theories. We find that the Scientific theories of today are not stable. They change with each century, while the Theosophical one never alters. It is the result of age-old and continuous verification by the Elder Brothers. These have now caused its repromulgation and pointed to its confirmation in ancient books and traditions. To them, it is a statement of facts in nature. The modern Scientific theories in an attempt to speculatively rebuild an unknown past, are, on the contrary, always doubtful, changeable, and continually altered. There are continuous attempts to secure proof of these theories, but nothing has proved conclusive so far. ROUNDS, GLOBES, RACES The sevenfold Earth is a living oneness -- a sentient entity -- and not a mere lump of gross matter. Being an entity of a septenary nature, there must be six other Globes which roll with it in space. This company of seven Globes has been called the "Earth Chain," or, the "Planetary Chain." To make this concept clear Theosophy states: The earth is one of seven globes, in respect to man's consciousness only, because when he functions on one of the seven he perceives it as a distinct globe and does not see the other six. This is in perfect correspondence with man himself who has six other constituents of which only the gross body is visible to him because he is now functioning on the physical Earth, or the fourth Globe -- and his body represents the Earth. We have a statement that these Globes are united in one mass, each interpenetrating the others, but differing from each other in substance, and, that this difference of substance is due to change of center of consciousness. To explain further: The whole seven "Globes" constitute one single mass or Great Globe, and they all interpenetrate each other. We have to say "Globe," because the ultimate shape is globular or spherical. In studying the diagrams used in the Secret Doctrine to illustrate the scheme, one has to pay close attention to the accompanying explanations and cautions given by H. P. Blavatsky. Both she and her Adept teachers say, that the seven globes of our chain are in "coadunition with each other but not in consubstantiality." [Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, p. 166, 200] This is further enforced by cautions not to rely on statistics, or plane surface diagrams, but to look at the metaphysical and spiritual aspect of the theory as stated in English. THE EARTH HAS REINCARNATED The Earth Chain of seven Globes as thus defined is the direct reincarnation of a former chain of seven Globes, and that former family of seven was the Moon chain, the moon itself being the visible representative of the fourth Globe of the old chain. When that former vast entity composed of the Moon and six others, all united in one mass, reached its limit of life, it died just as any being dies. Each one of the seven sent its energies into space and gave similar life or vibration to cosmic dust -- matter, -- and the total cohesive force of the whole kept the seven energies together. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I pp. 152-154, 171-181 ] This resulted in the evolving of the present Earth Chain of seven centers of energy or evolution combined in one mass. As the Moon was the fourth of the old series it is on the same plane of perception as the Earth, and as we are now confined in our consciousness largely to Earth, we are only able to see one of the old seven -- our Moon. When we are functioning on any of the other seven planes of consciousness, we will perceive the corresponding old corpse as a Moon. EVOLUTION PASSING FROM GLOBE TO GLOBE The whole number of Monads now going through evolution on our Earth Chain came over from the old seven Globes which I have described. This mass of Egos has also been called a "life wave," meaning the stream of Monads. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I pp 171-175 ] It reached this planetary mass, represented to our consciousness by our central point -- our Earth, and began on Globe A or No. I, coming like an army, or river. The first portion began on Globe A and went through a long evolution there in bodies suited to such a state of matter, and then passed on to B, and so on through the whole seven greater states of consciousness which have been called Globes. When the first portion left A, others streamed in and pursued the same course, the whole army proceeding with regularity round the septenary route. This journey went on for four circlings round the whole, and then the whole stream or army of Egos from the old Moon Chain had arrived, and being complete, no more entered after the middle of the Fourth Round. The same circling process of these differently arrived classes goes on for seven complete "Rounds" of the whole seven planetary centers of consciousness, and when the seven are ended as much perfection as is possible in the immense period occupied, will have been attained, and then this chain or mass of "Globes" will die in its turn to give birth to still another series. Hence we have the Rounds and Races. These are all periods of time. The Round is a circling of the seven centers [Globes] of planetary consciousness. [ S D I 200 ] "RACES" The Race, is the racial development on one of those seven. [This has nothing to do with our modern definition of ethnic "races," or of the color of the skin.] "Race" as used in Theosophy is a period of time. There are seven Races for each Globe, but the total of forty-nine Races only makes up seven Great Races, (the special septenate of Races on each Globe or planetary center composing in reality one race of seven constituents or special peculiarities of function and power). As no complete Race could be evolved in a moment on any Globe, the slow, orderly processes of nature, which allow no jumps, must proceed by appropriate means. Hence Sub-Races have to be evolved one after the other before the Perfect Root Race is formed. Then the Root Race sends off its offshoots while it is declining and preparing for the advent of the next Great Race. Illustrating this, it is taught that on the Americas is to be evolved the new -- sixth -- Race; and here all the races of the earth are now engaged in a great amalgamation from which will result a very highly developed Sub-Race, after which others will be evolved by similar processes until the new one is completed. Between the end of any great Race and the beginning of another there is a period of rest, so far as the globe is concerned, for then the stream of human Egos leaves it for another one of the chain in order to go on with further evolution of powers and faculties there. PERFECTION AND THE END OF EVOLUTION Each one of the Globes is used by evolutionary law for the development of seven "Races," and of senses, faculties and powers appropriate to that state of matter. (the experience of the whole seven Globes being needed to make a perfect development in man's consciousness and character). Upon this earth and upon the whole chain of Globes of which it is a part seven races of men appeared simultaneously, their destiny is to slowly differentiate during the succeeding rounds until at the seventh round the seven first great races will be once more distinct, as perfect types of the human race as this period of evolution will allow. At the present time the seven races are mixed together, and representatives of all are in the many so-called races of men as classified by our present science. The object of this amalgamation and subsequent differentiation is to give to every race the benefit of the progress and power of the whole derived from prior progress in other planets and systems. For Nature never does her work in a hasty or undue fashion, but, by the sure method of mixture, precipitation, and separation, brings about the greatest perfection. But when the last, the seventh Race has appeared and fully perfected itself, in the 7th Round and the 7th Globe, a great dissolution comes on, similar to that which preceded the birth of the earth's chain. Then the world disappears as a tangible thing, and so far as the human ear is concerned there is silence. This, it is said, is the root of the belief so general, that the world will come to an end, that there will be a judgment-day, or that there have been in the past, universal floods, earthquakes, submergences of continents, or fires. Subsequent to that, which is our future, the whole mass is spiritualized with full consciousness and the entire body of globes raised up to a higher plane of development. [Extracts from the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by W Q Judge] ============================== trust this may be of help Dallas ===================== -----Original Message----- From: wry [ Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 1:06 AM To: Subject: Re: "root races" Hi. I am still waiting for an answer to the question, below. I have often wondered about this. ----- Original Message ----- From: "wry From llkingston2@juno.com Sat Dec 28 07:06:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 15:06:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 76013 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 15:06:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 15:06:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.bos.untd.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 15:06:38 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8Q0aS//Cy8GuLtd9GaziRKYKcahdnHIX+w=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.bos.untd.com (jqueuemail) id HL5HWDEJ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 10:05:55 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:52:14 -0500 Subject: Why Study the Root Races? Message-ID: <20021228.095522.-721673.1.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,6-7,24-25,43-44,55-56,64-67 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 The question has been asked as to why Theosophy spends time studying the Seven Root Races of Globe D in the 4th Round. Why was this material written in the first place? What is it's relevence for our time? One might just as well ask what is the purpose of the entire SECRET DOCTRINE as the discussion of the Root Races is just one component of a much larger work which deals with similar matters. 1-First, keep in mind that the SD was written as the title page suggests as "the synthesis of science, religion, and philosophy." This is a much deeper continuation of the work done in ISIS UNVEILED. In both works, the assertions of religion and science are examined and answered according to the understandings of the ancient wisdom of the secret doctrine. But it is more than a simple "putting down" of religion and science. Rather, as a synthesis, SD goes between the lines to show the hidden meanings in many world religious teachings and also to fill in the gaps and straighten out the theories of science. It also attempts to show that rather than the purely mechanical evolution that science has theorized. evolution is in fact "directed" by higher powers and thus has a spiritual goal rather than a random life of its own. On the other hand, the various "creationist" myths of religion are shown for what the really are and harmonized with the teachings of science. To this end, SD first needs to outline in detail what teaching are, including the subject of the Root Races and then compares/contrasts them to the teachings of religion and science. 2-As Dallas has pointed out in another place, these teachings about ancient races are not just some historical meanderings for intellectual perusal. these teachings are ABOUT US! WE each lived countless incarnations in each of these Root Races. So it shows what our own progress has been, outlines what the future holds and thus places our lives in an eternal perspective. Knowing this, and coming to believe it, helps one get a grip on why we are here and what is expected of us. We are NOT some creature fashioned by the whim of some personal god to exist for his/her pleasure to end up around some eternal throne spending eternity in adulation! Neither are we just some chance of nature, the result of random co-mingling of molecules and the chance evolution to what we are now only to be one day rendered extinct and of no consequence but only a flash in the cosmic randomess that is our universe. We are each an eternal monad, ever progressing, ever evolving, taking back steps now and then ,faltering perhaps, but overall continuing on an eternal course which is charted, directed and sure. This earthly flesh will indeed wither and die but the monad continues and incarnates again and again, progressing spiritually towards higher forms and experiences. HPB writes that this is not for everyone at this time. Most scoff at all this and view it as nonsense (even a number on this list) But this is understandable and expected. She writes in the last paragraph of the SD introduction vol I: xlvi "The errors of the day must be explained and swept away, yet it is more than probable--and in the present case it amounts to certitude--that once more the testimony of long ages and of history will fail to inpress anyone but the very intuitional--which is equal to saying the very few. But in this as in all cases, the TRUE and the FAITHFUL may console themselves by presenting the sceptical modern Sadducee with the mathematical proff and memorial of his obdurate abstinacy and bigotry." So this is what it's about. You might be interested to know that on the list I moderate (BN-study) one of the things I am currently doing is a study of those very Root Races, extecting from the SD what we know about each and preparing a chart which will at a glance compare and contrast them. Certainly not for everyone! earlier in the year we went through the Bibical Book of Genesis and cited the relevant SD quote which explain the hidden meaning to those passages. Again, an exercize for the few. But ant interested are invited to share with us. (I owe you one Eldon) Hope this offers some understanding Larry ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Dec 28 08:09:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 89572 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.249] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 16:09:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Panikkar and SECRET DOCTRINE Nasadiya Sukta verses compared Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 344 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote in posting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9999: > FOR YOUR COMPARISON BELOW ARE BOTH PROF. R. PANIKKAR'S AND HPB'S > PUBLISHED VERSES FROM THE RIG VEDIC HYMN THE NASADIYA SUKTA. Bhakti Ananda Goswami, So what exactly is your point? What should we conclude from this comparison? Daniel From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Dec 28 08:49:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 16:49:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 4744 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 16:49:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 16:49:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 16:49:28 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-094-121.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.94.121] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SK9P-0000Cv-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 08:49:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3E0DD615.F699FD54@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:49:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World: "root races" References: <3E0A6276.4E3F6170@sprynet.com> <000901c2ac8c$ac4b2540$efd30b3f@idapingala> <009101c2ae50$688d42a0$fbd30b3f@idapingala> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 wry wrote: > Hi. I am still waiting for an answer to the question, below. I have > often wondered about this. A student once went to Socrates, and was asked what the practical use of some branch of mathematics was. He was promptly ejected from Socrates' school. > Regarding the "root races," what possible FUNCTION can this concept > provide, whatever it refers to? It is an oxymoron, as it useless, as > far as I can see, and serves no function in the application of any > kind of practical metaphysics (spiritual development of human beings.) It's an attempt to help approximate information which cannot be gained precisely due to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Bart Lidofsky From dhyana@web.de Sat Dec 28 09:17:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 17:17:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 56229 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 17:17:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 17:17:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 17:17:06 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gBSHH1w13544 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:17:01 +0100 Received: from captain28u015g (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gBSHGxF13522 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:16:59 +0100 Message-ID: <01fb01c2ae95$02978600$0100007f@captain28u015g> To: References: <018301c2ae3e$8eba61e0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:46:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.199 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >for all. [Genesis, 16, 12] In Jewish tradition, [much before Arabic invasion >into Palestine], mentioned that the Jews will rule Palestine for 1300 years, And me thought it were the Jews, the black magican outcasts of India, the Non-Brahmans, the A-Brahams, the Abrahams, who invaded Palestine! The Palestine and Israel of the Thorah are no geographical, political, physical things but terms of the initiation chamber of the Aryans. Those Jews who claim otherwise have only stolen Aryan thought and Aryan history and make a parody of it. Why does that remind me on Annie Besant and Leadbeater? Beware of the day the theosophical circles are becoming nothing else than Freemasonry bodies! Frank From dhyana@web.de Sat Dec 28 09:17:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 17:17:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 12151 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 17:17:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 17:17:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 17:17:22 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gBSHHHS13619 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:17:17 +0100 Received: from captain28u015g (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gBSHHFF13597 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:17:15 +0100 Message-ID: <01fe01c2ae95$0c247070$0100007f@captain28u015g> To: References: <3E0A6276.4E3F6170@sprynet.com> <000901c2ac8c$ac4b2540$efd30b3f@idapingala> <009101c2ae50$688d42a0$fbd30b3f@idapingala> Subject: Re: Theos-World: "root races" Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:09:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.199 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >First of all, ALL human beings alive today are Aryans. But that is not the standpoint of Blavatsky and de Purucker. Both taught that the majority of mankind still belongs to the 4th root race, whereas the Aryans are the 5th root race. How can it be otherwise as the Earth is still in its 4th round? And of course has every root race its degenerated species. How could it be otherwise? The point is - morally speaking - that this degeneration is relatively and not absolute. That different races imply a different way of thinking is best proven by the 1st aim of the TS: Universal Brotherhood. The Jews coin this aim to a Master race ideology where the Jews are ruling the world from a world government, enslaving all the non-Jewish nations. The Aryan interpretation is quite different from the Jewish one. Aryans (like HPB, Judge, Tingley, Purucker) think that all races and nations have the same rights and duties and should cooperate in fair exchange and harmony. This way of thinking was well outspoken in the motto of Kaiser Wilhelm II. of Germany: "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen!", which in my humble translation is something like: "The world shall be healed through the German essence!" This motto points to the buddhi level, the spiritual world. The aggressive, imperialistic anglo-saxony warfare mind coined this German motto down to their materialistic level, accusing the Germans of having this imperialistic plans which only the City of London have had (Churchill: "The USA will be the muscles of the British brain" - so it is until today! The Americans are a very young race as HPB clearly warns us in the SD). That the Aryan thought is quite the opposite and the soulless, materialistic and satanic Jewish way of thinking is merely the antithesis of the Aryan thought defended by noble Theosophists like HPB, Judge, Tingley, Purucker can be seen from the fact that the Jews announced WWI WWII and were pround of it that they were able to kill millions of people. Now they announce WWIII as they are convinced Armageddon is coming in 2020 and their fake Messias (Satan-Jahve) will only appear when they have slaughtered the half of mankind. As there are a mass of leading Jews and Zionists who wrote about that facts you will hardly cant it away. The TS was founded to bring about a peaceful reform for the masses. Every true religious Jew will understand that, the more he/she/it is familiar with theosophical doctrines. In that true theosophical understanding is the dead letter abuse of the Thora the real anti-semitism. It is the same idea Rudolf Steiner had in mind when he critized in 1917 the first Zionist Congress in Basle of 1897, that those who misuse the Jewish religion for political purposes are doing harm to the Jews. The same idea was expressed by the Blavatsky Lodge with the introduction to and the republication of "The Hebrew Talisman" with clear warnings. Also you can find several clear warnings through the volumes of The Theosophical Path under Katherine Tingley, who served always for the Aryan cause. Frank From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Dec 28 09:20:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 17:20:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 64364 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 17:20:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 17:20:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 17:20:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.135] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 17:20:38 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 17:20:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: B.A.G. on Blavatsky, the Mahatmas and Serapis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4631 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Bhakti Ananda Goswami, You wrote in part: "In HPB's time and culture, it would have been extremely difficult for her to 'be her/ HIM SELF'. Thus, HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' MASCULINE GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS. The men she IDENTIFIED WITH were like the Kashmiri Rajas. Thus her 'mystical form' as SERAPIS was like these heroic figures. She was not a girl or women in awe of them, 'she' felt 'herself' to BE ONE OF THEM. For her, the life of HPB was probably less real than that of her Mahatmas, especially Master SERAPIS, whom she identified with." Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9952 I'm wondering exactly how you came to these conclusions. Is this just mere speculation on your part or do you have some evidence that would verify your "psychoanalytic" assessment? Furthermore, it is hard to understand exactly what you are getting out. For example, you write: "Thus, HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' MASCULINE GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS." What exactly does that mean? Can you relate this vague statement of yours, for example, to the following two accounts? Here is the first account. In "Old Diary Leaves," Volume II, pp. 254-255, Colonel Olcott wrote of his encounter with a Master on Oct. 26, 1880 at the Golden Temple at Amritsar, India: "At a shrine where the swords, sharp steel discs, coats of mail, and other warlike weapons of the Sikh warrior priests are exposed to view in charge of the akalis, I was greeted, to my surprise and joy, with a loving smile by one of the Masters, who for the moment was figuring among the guardians, and who gave each of us [HPB and Olcott] a fresh rose, with a blessing in his eyes." In Olcott's own handwritten diary, the entry for October 26, 1880 reads: "...In the afternoon we went to the Golden Temple again & found it as lovely as before. Saw some hundreds of fakirs & gossains more or less ill-favored. A Brother there saluted H.P.B. and me & gave us each a rose." B.A.G., how does this encounter with a Master relate to your statement that "HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' MASCULINE GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS." Or take the second account. Colonel Olcott tells us: "[On July 15, 1879, Mahatma Morya] visited me in the flesh at Bombay, coming in full daylight, and on horseback. He had me called by a servant into the front room of HPB's bungalow (she being at the time in the other bungalow talking with those who were there). He came to scold me roundly for something I had done in TS matters, and as HPB was also to blame, he telegraphed to her to come, that is to say, he turned his face and extended his finger in the direction of the place she was in. She came over at once with a rush and, seeing him, dropped on her knees and paid him reverence. My voice and his had been heard by those in the other bungalow, but only HPB and I, and the servant saw him." Quoted from: Hume, A. O. Hints on Esoteric Theosophy, No. 1: Is Theosophy a Delusion? Do the Brothers Exist? Calcutta, India: Calcutta Central Press, 1882. In Colonel Olcott's diary for July 15, 1879, the following entry is written: "[I] had visit in body of the Sahib!! [He] sent Babula to my room to call me to HPB's bungalow, and there we had a most important private interview. Alas! how puerile and vain these men make one feel by contrast with them." Please tell us B.A.G. how your statements quoted at the beginning of this posting relate to these two encounters with HPB's Masters. As regards your vague statements about Serapis, can your relate your statement to the testimonies I gave in the following posting? See my posting at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9959 Daniel H. Caldwell --------------------------------------- BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com Publishes rare & hard-to-find source documents on Madame H.P. Blavatsky. --------------------------------------- ESOTERIC WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/esotericworldam.htm This book contains a unique collection of rare reminiscences of H.P. Blavatsky's life. --------------------------------------- Theosophyonthe.NET http://theosophyonthe.net Easy Net Access to the Classics of Theosophy --------------------------------------- Theosophy.INFO http://theosophy.info Introductions to Theosophy --------------------------------------- You can always access our main site BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Dec 28 09:26:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 17:26:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 60791 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 17:26:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 17:26:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 17:26:46 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-094-121.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.94.121] helo=sprynet.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SKjV-0002tU-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:26:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3E0DDED8.82EBF3D1@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 12:26:48 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World: "root races" References: <3E0A6276.4E3F6170@sprynet.com> <000901c2ac8c$ac4b2540$efd30b3f@idapingala> <009101c2ae50$688d42a0$fbd30b3f@idapingala> <01fe01c2ae95$0c247070$0100007f@captain28u015g> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > But that is not the standpoint of Blavatsky and de Purucker. Both > taught that the majority of mankind still belongs to the 4th root > race, whereas the Aryans are the 5th root race. How can it be > otherwise as the Earth is still in its 4th round? Because there are two paths of evolution; physical and spiritual. Physical is discontinuous, and spiritual is continuous. Although everybody has 5th root race bodies, not everybody is using the yet-not-fully-developed buddhi manas (higher mind), spending most of the time using the fully developed kama manas (emotion/desire driven mind). Bart Lidofsky From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Dec 28 10:38:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 18:38:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 83649 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 18:38:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 18:38:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 18:38:33 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-05-43.look.ca ([216.154.45.234] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18SLqv-00054n-00; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:38:30 +0000 Message-ID: <3E0DF06B.C9F588C6@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:41:47 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Cc: Theosophy Study List Subject: re BAG, Dallas, logic, "sense making," etc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Those who have a strongish preference for "studied" or "unstudied verbosity" (the latter as per whoever that was who used that description recently on Theos Talk) might be better off not trying to decipher my "intended meaning," in general. This post being, I suspect, a case in point. Dallas wrote: <> But if we tend to over confine "our study to observation and common sense" in terms of "rigorous logic," as if that kind of approach toward defining reality/truth had a p/Primary importance in our lives, (ie, as if "p/Primary importance" could be fully dualicized, conventionalized, exoterized, scientized in keeping with [nothing but?] various or "certain" "logical initial assumptions"?), then where could one be going with that kind of general approach if it's extended even to one's "Theosophic studies"? Of course if that kind of wording is interpreted just with simple logic, (or just with the likes of "studied" or "unstudied verbosity"?) well ... That is, while "rigorous logic" may have many mainstream/exoteric, very apparently, or real enough useful roles in our lives, (ie, "proving" and "disproving" this and that as per whatever initial assumptions one might adopt, or tend to adopt, from time to time), I suspect that part of "the study of Theosophy" might include the cultivation of, say, "a broader perspective," whereby one at least tries not to completely attach one's allegiance, motivation, scientizing, modeling, thinking, speculation, etc, to dualistic initial assumptions or too one-sidedly dualistic worldviews too exclusively, but that one might also at least try to keep in mind one's sense of (at whatever interpretive level ...?) what might be decribed, in Theosophic terms (?), as the "voice of the silence" (as per HPB's book by that title?), by which "voice" I'm referring to that "higher sense" that isn't limited ("ideally," in a sense?) to any speculations, thoughts, or "belief structures" that are seen as based on any mainstream, dualistic, exoteric, apparent particulars or worldviews or essentially dualistic initial assumptions. In other words, as I see it, karma can (and does?) place so many apparent inconsistencies in one's p/Path, often enough, so that an over emphasis on "rigorous logic," as I see it, makes for a fools path, in a sense, in that, (as we all know?), "logic" in this dualistic world is limited to (as HPB might've pointed out?) the kind of reality making that, as a dog chasing its own tail might find out, has no "end" or intrinsic reality aside from it's dualistic, mayavic, karmic, temporary appearance. Speculatively, Mauri PS Sorry about the long sentences. I started off thinking about responding to BAG's response to me with something like "Really?" and that's all. And maybe that might've been just as relevant, in this and most cases, as more of my "unstudied verbosity" (as per whoever that was). But, seeing as this is (apparently?) a Theosophy list ... From jjhe@charter.net Sat Dec 28 10:43:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 18:43:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 59153 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 18:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 18:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dc-mx01.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.8.11) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 18:43:17 -0000 Received: from [68.116.95.164] (HELO pavilion) by dc-mx01.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with ESMTP id 25061469 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:43:16 -0500 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 10:43:28 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c2aea1$03357d40$a45f7444@pavilion> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Yes, this is my understanding too. Boris believed that HPB, as a result of her training, was able to access this Higher Ego--i.e. attain a state of Buddhic consciousness. I recall him saying that some of her writings came from this higher state, while others, came from a very ordinary state of consciousness. --j -----Original Message----- From: Steve Stubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 7:31 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" wrote: > I do > recall Boris discussing HBP's "hermaphroditism" on several occasions. > However, I clearly recall that in each of these incidents, Boris was (to > my mind) speaking of HPB's "occult nature," not physical > characteristics. In the Kabala Adam Kadmon (literally "the first Adam") is said to have been both male and female and Blavatsky esoterically equated this with the Higher Ego (buddhimanas) so that ahny of us would theoretically be androgynous in our "occult nature.? Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 10:43:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 18:43:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 58551 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 18:43:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 18:43:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 18:43:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.128] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 18:43:26 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:43:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <018301c2ae3e$8eba61e0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1593 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.152.232.21 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Etzion Becker wrote: > I have never heard about two Moses. I don't see any mention about volcanos > in the Bible. Read Freud, MOSES AND MONOTHEISM. The Exodus story is filled with references to a volcano, which suggests another hero who lived far to the north of Egypt and whose legend was mistakenly merged with that of the Egyptian Moses by the exodus writer. Apparently this "other" Moses relates to a time when the Hebrews worshipped a volcano, probably with an interest to placating it so it would not destroy their community. The fact that the fellow who compiled and preserved the legends for us mistook these two men for the same person suggests to scholars that they might have had the same name or similar names. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by a volcanic eruption. > Arabs, or the sons of Ishmael were roaming beduins, nomads They were nomads just as the ancient Hebrews were nomads. > In Jewish tradition, [much before Arabic invasion > into Palestine], mentioned that the Jews will rule Palestine for 1300 years, > then the Arabs will rule it for 1300 years. Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the reference. Does the tradition suggest that the first 1300 years begins with the end of the Rxile? Am I interpreting it correctly? > Lord Abraham was about to sacrifice his > son Issac to God. I think you are confused. I heard Alan Dershowitz talk about this legend one time and I believe he said it was Isaac who wanted to sacrifice his son. Dershowitz said he would have had Isaac indicted. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 10:51:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 18:51:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 76407 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 18:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 18:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 18:51:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.170] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 18:51:50 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:51:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <21.2959819c.2b3eaf56@cs.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 925 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.152.232.21 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, samblo@c... wrote: > Steve, > The permutations from Pharoah Ahmasis to Ahmoses to Amoses to Moses > is an interesting linguistist idiosyncracy. Read Breasted;s THE DAWN OF CONSCIENCE. Ahmose means "child of Ammmon," Thutmose means "child of Thoth," etc. "Mose" therefore means child, and the trailing "s" was added by the translators of the Septuagint. Moses' real name was therefore originally Ahmore, Thutmose, Ptahmose or something like that, and he shortened it after he decided the Egyptians could take a hike. Manetho says he was a priest of yhr Rgyptian god Osiris, which makes sense since according to Bonwick, Mount Sinai was Osiris' birth place. I think Blavatsky referred to that in ISIS UNVEILED. Mount Sinai was never a volcano, though, so the legends about it berinh a volcano then are clearly from the story of another ancient tribal hero. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Dec 28 11:03:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:03:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 79744 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:03:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:03:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:03:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.249] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 19:03:12 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:03:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Panikkar and SECRET DOCTRINE Nasadiya Sukta verses compared Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 895 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.39 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn DEAR MR. CALDWELL, IT IS SIMPLY AN IDENTIFICATION OF THE TEXT. RATHER THAN RELYING ON MY TESTIMONY THAT THEY ARE THE SAME HYMN, I HAVE PROVIDED THEM BOTH FOR YOUR COMPARISON THAT IS ALL. WHY DOES THERE NEED TO BE ANY MORE OR ULTERIOR MOTIVE OR THING TO CONCLUDE ? I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO BRING MY KNOWLEDGE AS A VAISHNAVA SANSKRIT SCHOLAR INTO THE SERVICE OF IDENTIFYING HPB's SOURCES, WHICH IS ALL THAT I AM DOING. BEST WISHES, BA G --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell " wrote: > Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote in posting > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9999: > > > FOR YOUR COMPARISON BELOW ARE BOTH PROF. R. PANIKKAR'S AND HPB'S > > PUBLISHED VERSES FROM THE RIG VEDIC HYMN THE NASADIYA SUKTA. > > Bhakti Ananda Goswami, > > So what exactly is your point? What should we conclude from this > comparison? > > Daniel From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Dec 28 11:04:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:04:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 1257 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:04:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:04:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:04:29 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-094-121.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.94.121] helo=sprynet.com) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SMG5-00043R-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:04:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3E0DF5C0.8520CBCC@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:04:32 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 "Steve Stubbs " wrote: > of the Egyptian Moses by the exodus writer. Apparently this "other" > Moses relates to a time when the Hebrews worshipped a volcano, > probably with an interest to placating it so it would not destroy > their community. However, this "volcano worship" is a matter of pure speculation based on word-twisting, not a matter of historical fact. Bart From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 11:12:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:12:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 62883 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:12:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:12:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:12:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 19:12:03 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:12:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism TYPO CORRECTED AND CLARIFICATION Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1483 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.152.232.21 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Deat BAG: Many thanks for your interesting comments. Yes, psychiatrists consider GID to be "non-specific aetiology," which means it exists, but cannot be traced to any specific medical condition. Your comments are very thought proboking indeed. I certainly agree with you that religious and other groups need to stop sticking their noses where they do not belong and distirting what should be a scientific question. You mention your "index", papers, and so on. Are they published or on the Internet, or how does one refer to them? I susepct your compl;ete paper answers a lot of other questions that have rolled iy my mind since I took DSM IV classes. Jung theorized that if you are consciously a male, your unconscious mind is a female, and v.v. Whether he was right or not I cannot say, but I can see how at least in theory if unconscious contents are pressing into coonsciousness more easily than they do in "normal" people (a condition one sees in both schizophrenics and seers) one could have an alter ego which was of the opposite sex from one's persona. It would not be surprising to see something like this in someone who is perfectly sane but who nonetheless had easier than normal intercommunication between the conscious and unconscious minds, as someone like HPB would have had. (I am assuming she did have psychic experiences as she says she did, and that the boundary between these two autonomous psychic regions was therefore porous.) From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Sat Dec 28 11:28:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:28:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 53031 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:27:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:27:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout3.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.24) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:27:58 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([62.0.148.122]) by mxout3.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) with SMTP id <0H7U006CSGQF5X@mxout3.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:27:57 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:15:55 +0200 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism TYPO CORRECTED AND CLARIFICATION To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <00a101c2aea7$058be1a0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <20021228084105.45300.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> From: Etzion Becker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 X-Yahoo-Profile: etzion7398 My Israeli Theosophical friends read a booklet which I published a few years ago containing six *conversations* my Master gave to His disciples concerning the formation of the ego and its termination, and the way to eliminate sanskaras (the name he used for the enslaving impressions which adhere to our subconscious minds and compel us to take births non stop, and also compels the person to act without self control. They published these conversations in their bimonthly magazine. They are good, trust me. I have the file also in English. If so you wish, I can send one at a time. Etzion ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mic Forster" To: Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 10:41 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism TYPO CORRECTED AND CLARIFICATION > Thanks Etzion, just making sure we are all still on > the ball. But I'm a scientist at heart and before I > can be convinced of something I really need tangible > proof (well something close to tangible anyway). At > the beginning of this year at university I decided to > do some extra subjects and consequently I undertook > philosophy. Well I enjoyed the lectures but after one > tutorial I chucked it in with sheer frustration. Those > guys couldn't make up their minds on anything!!! > From jpcondick@btinternet.com Sat Dec 28 11:28:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 53918 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tungsten.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Received: from host213-1-72-207.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.72.207] helo=oemcomputer) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #16) id 18SMd6-00027e-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:28:17 +0000 Message-ID: <00ed01c2aea7$5e88f2c0$555701d5@oemcomputer> To: References: <1040904054.284.51331.m12@yahoogroups.com> <000801c2adee$2ad02160$1fe0ba3f@zackl> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: HPB and the Nazi doctrines Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:27:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zack Lansdowne" To: Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 9:22 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: HPB and the Nazi doctrines > Bart wrote: > > Well, Blavatsky was long dead when the Nazi's started. Many attribute > > the statements of Alice Bailey, who, in spite of her spiritual > > connections, was something of a bigot (she felt Blacks were inferior, > > Jews deserved any bad thing that happened to them because of their > > rejection of Jesus, and that all homosexuals were inherently evil), and > > made a number of statements supportive of the Nazi's. > > > > I have the complete set of Alice Bailey's 24 books on CD-ROM, and so I > decided to check the accuracy of Bart's claim that Alice Bailey "made a > number of statements supportive of the Nazi's." By doing a search on the > word "Nazi", I learned that Bailey, in her books, used this word exactly > nine times. The paragraphs in which she used this word are as follows: > > 1) The dangers growing out of hate, revenge and pain. These dangers will be > the most difficult to avoid. A deep-seated hatred of the Nazi regime (and of > the German nation as endorsing that regime) is steadily rising. This is > almost inevitable, being based on the facts of Nazi activity. The task of > the United Nations after the war will of necessity be-among other things-to > protect the German people from the hate of those whom they have so > appallingly abused. This will be no easy thing to do. Retribution and > revenge must not be permitted, and yet at the same time a just payment for > evil action cannot, and should not, be avoided. The law ever works, and that > law states that whatsoever a man or nation sows, that shall it also reap. > Germany has sown evil broadcast throughout the civilised world, and for some > time to come her lot must be hard and she will have to pay in sweat and toil > and tears for her evil deeds. But this payment should be part of the great > work of rehabilitation and not a vengeful exaction, and if this is borne in > mind, no serious mistakes will be made. The German people must work > strenuously to put right the evil they have done, as far as in them lies, > but the next generation-at present in the cradle or at school-must not be > penalised. (Bailey, Externalization of the Hierarchy, pp. 370-371)... > The above paragraphs contain all of the instances in which Alice Bailey used > the word "Nazi" in her 24 books. Nowhere do I see any justification for > Bart's claim that Alice Bailey "made a number of statements supportive of > the Nazi's." > > > Zack Lansdowne. Dear Bart, I have done a search [nazism] looking for your suggestion that AAB was supportive of the Nazi Third Reich, yet have only come up with this which alongside the work of Zack does not add support to your proclamation. A passage from "Problems Of Humanity" AAB, is also included for your future reference. Kindest Regards Jeremy "The ancient and inherited ideas which have controlled the racial life for centuries -aggression for the sake of possession and the authority of a man or a group or a church which represents the State. For purposes of policy such powers may work behind the scenes but their tenets and motives are easily recognizable - selfish ambition and a violently imposed authority. Those ideas which are relatively new such as Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, though they are not really as new as people are apt to think. They are alike on one important point, i.e. The State or community of human beings counts as of importance whilst the individual does not; he can be sacrificed at any time for the good of the State or for the so-called general good. [9] Destiny Of The Nations. AAB. It is here that the power of speech makes itself felt, just as in the department of religion or of education the power of the written word, of the printed page, is felt. In the field of politics, the masses are swayed by their orators, and never more so than now through the use of the radio. Great ideas are dinned into the ear of the public without cessation - theories as to dictatorship, communism, nazism, fascism, marxism, nationalism and democratic ideals. Methods of rule by this or that group of thinkers are presented to the public, leaving them no time for consideration, or for clear thinking. Racial antipathies are spread, and personal preferences and illusions find expression, bringing about the deception of the unthinking. [115] The man who has a golden tongue, the man who has the gift of playing with words and can voice with emphasis people's grievances, the juggler in statistics, the fanatic with a certain and sure cure for social ills and the man who loves to fan race hatreds, can ever get a following. Such men can with facility upset the balance of the community and lead a body of unthinking adherents to a transient success and power, or to obloquy and oblivion. Education In New Age. AAB. Shamballa force (in spite of its attendant risks) to pour into the world. The objective was to stimulate the free will of the masses; the result upon them has been relatively good as it has led to the formulation and expression of the great world ideologies -Fascism, [127] Democracy and Communism as well as that peculiarly distorted blend of Fascism and Communism which goes by the name of Hitlerism or Nazism. All these ideologies are fostered by the desire of the masses for the betterment of the condition in which the populace in any country lives and it has become focused, expressive and creative by the force of the Shamballa influence. But another result of this inflow of the will-to-power has been to stimulate a certain group of outstanding personalities in many lands so that they have assumed control of the masses and can thus determine the policies and methods -religious, political and social - of the different nations. In every nation a relatively small group of people decide all important issues and determine all major national activities. This they do either by force, terror and deception or by persuasion, fair words and the application of ideological motives. Externalisation Of The Hierarchy. AAB. These nations want understanding cooperation; they want the implements for agriculture, immediate relief in food and clothing, plus the wherewithal to start again their educational institutions, to organize their schools and to equip them with what is immediately required. They certainly do not want a horde of [42] well-meaning people taking over their educational or medical institutions, or imposing democratic, communistic or any other particular ideology upon them. Naturally, the principles of Nazism and of Fascism must be swept away, but the nations must be free to work out their own destiny. They have each of them their own traditions, cultures and backgrounds. They are being forced to build anew but what they build must be their own; it must be distinctive of them and an expression of their own inner life. It is surely the function of the wealthier and free nations to help them to build so that the new world can come into being." Problems Of Humanity. AAB. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 11:28:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:28:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 54928 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:28:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:28:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.170] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:28:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Panikkar and SECRET DOCTRINE Nasadiya Sukta verses compared Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 281 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.152.232.21 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell " wrote: > So what exactly is your point? What should we conclude from this > comparison? It is fairly obvious the Stanzas of Dzyan are the Rg Veda. BAG is not the first person to point that out. From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Sat Dec 28 12:08:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 20:08:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 10677 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 20:08:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 20:08:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout1.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.20) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 20:08:36 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([62.0.148.122]) by mxout1.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) with SMTP id <0H7U0091ZIM7AZ@mxout1.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 22:08:34 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 22:07:07 +0200 Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <00db01c2aeac$b35e12d0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: From: Etzion Becker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 X-Yahoo-Profile: etzion7398 I cannot read Freud. There is too much on my little head already. I read genesis many, many times. Sorry, I don't remember any volcano. Some think that Mt Sinai behaved like a volcano at that time, and it doesn't look like. I saw a movie a year or two ago in our educational t.v., before Passover, and they discovered the Santorini erupted with tremendous force during the time of Exodus, and the force was so huge, that stones flunged from the volcano and fell on Egypt. They found volcnic rocks which belonged to Santorini in Egypt. This explains many of the cataclysms like the darkness, hail, the *torn* Red Sea, etc. The Hebrews never worshipped any volcano, there are no volcanos in Palestine, only in the Golan Heights, and they are dead for many thousands of years. The Children of Israel lived in Palestine for about 1300 years, I guess since they entered Canaan after Exodus. I guess Dershowitz is some kind of American humor which I am not sure what is it. He is a lawyer, I guess. > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Etzion Becker > wrote: > > I have never heard about two Moses. I don't see any mention about > volcanos > > in the Bible. > > Read Freud, MOSES AND MONOTHEISM. The Exodus story is filled with > references to a volcano, which suggests another hero who lived far to > the north of Egypt and whose legend was mistakenly merged with that > of the Egyptian Moses by the exodus writer. Apparently this "other" > Moses relates to a time when the Hebrews worshipped a volcano, > probably with an interest to placating it so it would not destroy > their community. The fact that the fellow who compiled and preserved > the legends for us mistook these two men for the same person suggests > to scholars that they might have had the same name or similar names. > > Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by a volcanic eruption. > > > Arabs, or the sons of Ishmael were roaming beduins, nomads > > They were nomads just as the ancient Hebrews were nomads. > > > In Jewish tradition, [much before Arabic invasion > > into Palestine], mentioned that the Jews will rule Palestine for > 1300 years, > > then the Arabs will rule it for 1300 years. > > Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the reference. Does the > tradition suggest that the first 1300 years begins with the end of > the Rxile? Am I interpreting it correctly? > > > Lord Abraham was about to sacrifice his > > son Issac to God. > > I think you are confused. I heard Alan Dershowitz talk about this > legend one time and I believe he said it was Isaac who wanted to > sacrifice his son. Dershowitz said he would have had Isaac indicted. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Dec 28 12:09:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 20:09:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 15575 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 20:09:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 20:09:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 20:09:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.249] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 20:09:32 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:09:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: B.A.G. on Blavatsky, the Mahatmas and Serapis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 29092 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.39 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn BA G's answers at /// You (Mr. Caldwell) wrote... " I'm wondering exactly how you came to these conclusions." /// I considered the evidence from Theosophical Society sources, my extensive study and experience of intersexed persons. I am not the one who raised the issue here of HPB's (or my own) embodiment or gender identity. I was actually asked my opinion, so I gave it. Is this > just mere speculation on your part or do you have some evidence that > would verify your "psychoanalytic" assessment? ///My assessment has nothing to do with any psychoanalytic theory ie Freudian, Jungian etc. I have previously stated that my observations have NOTHING to do with Multiple Personality Disorder and I do not consider HPB to have had 'GID'. The statements of others regarding her inability to bear children or 'hermaphroditism' make it clear that she had some anatomical condition, which RULES OUT a diagnosis of GID. MOST anatomical conditions preventing pregnancy ARE intersex conditions, (see my detailed topical index), so if she was unable to concieve or bear a child, it is PROBABLE that she had an intersexed condition. Even if she could, that does not rule-out intersex (see my index) and the quesion remains, where has the rumor of her hermaphroditism come from ? Such rumors are unheard of in the Victorian era. ///The evidence is in HPB's writings and those about her, and in your own article pasted-in below. > Furthermore, it is hard to understand exactly what you are getting > out. For example, you write: > > "Thus, HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' MASCULINE > GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS." > > What exactly does that mean? /// That part of HPB's personality that Theosophical Sources and YOU have (see below) identified with Serapis, found expression as a Mahatma. > Can you relate this vague statement of yours, for example, to the > following two accounts? /// Whether the Mahatmas are considered all, part or none of a literary devise, it is clear from the evidience that you yourself have provided that HPB identified with them and especially her Master Serapis. If we are discussing her relationship to the very real Kashmiri Rajas, or some other hero of her's, heros can be viewed as desirable opposite-sex others, or as same sex ROLE MODELS and IDEALS. HPB's attitude to her MAhatmas was clearly a chaste one (not a tantric sexual-opposites one) and she clearly identified WITH THEM, especially Serapis, as you yourself have written below. > B.A.G., how does this encounter with a Master relate to your > statement that "HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' > MASCULINE GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS." /// People commonly express themselves through their heros and heroines, whether they are imaginary friends, someone else's fictional creation, or very real world beings. Any way that one may approach HPB and her relationship to the Mahatmas, she did clearly on some level identify with them (after all she penned their letters !) so what is the problem with my stating this, and pointing out that the Masters were MALE and not Female entities? Did she 'channel' any female personalities ? Or was her identification with heroic male figures ? /// Here is the evidence. Published by Blavatsky Archives. Online Edition copyright 2002. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "Bear Witness!" Who Was the Real H.P.B.? Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell A Mighty Adept Using the Old Body Called H.P. Blavatsky Some 109 year ago, Julia Keightley had the following experience: "A few days after Madame Blavatsky died, H.P.B. awoke me at night. I raised myself, feeling no surprise, but only the sweet accustomed pleasure. She held my eyes with her leonine gaze. Then she grew thinner, taller, her shape became masculine; slowly then her features changed, until a man of height and rugged powers, stood before me, the last vestige of her features melting into his, until the leonine gaze, the progressed radiance of her glance alone remained. The man lifted his head and said: 'Bear witness!' He then walked from the room, laying his hand on the portrait of H.P.B. as he passed." Reminiscences of H.P. Blavatsky and The Secret Doctrine, 1893, p. 127. Some two years earlier, James Pryse also had a remarkable encounter with HPB: "One evening [in 1889] while I was thus meditating the face of H. P. B. flashed before me. I recognized it from her portrait in Isis, though it appeared much older. Thinking that the astral picture, as I took it to be, was due to some vagary of fancy, I tried to exclude it; but at that the face showed a look of impatience, and instantly I was drawn out of my body and immediately was standing "in the astral" beside H. P. B. in London. It was along toward morning there, but she was still seated at her writing desk. While she was speaking to me, very kindly, I could not help thinking how odd it was that an apparently fleshy old lady should be an Adept. I tried to put that impolite thought out of my mind, but she read it, and as if in answer to it her physical body became translucent, revealing a marvellous inner body that looked as if it were formed of molten gold. Then suddenly the Master M. appeared before us in his mayavi-rupa. To him I made profound obeisance, for he seemed to me more like a God than a man. Somehow I knew who he was, though this was the first time I had seen him. He spoke to me graciously and said, 'I shall have work for you in six months.' He walked to the further side of the room, waved his hand in farewell and departed. Then H. P. B. dismissed me with the parting words, 'God bless you,' and directly I saw the waves of the Atlantic beneath me; I floated down and dipped my feet in their crests. Then with a rush I crossed the continent till I saw the lights of Los Angles and returned to my body, seated in the chair where I had left it. . . ." "Memorabilia of H.P.B." The Canadian Theosophist, March 15, 1935, pp. 1-5. http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/pryse.htm James Pryse wrote to William Q. Judge about his out-of-body experience and "vision" of H.P.B. Judge referred to these experiences in his reply to Pryse dated September 3, 1889: "My dear Pryse: "I have your letter, and fully appreciate your feelings as they resemble my own. "I do not think your position is so strange or remarkable as to be beyond our ken, nor do I look at your experiences as being solely mediumistic, nor at the dream or vision as unsolvable. You are now struggling with the personal self in the early stages, and can consider yourself fortunate that you have the chance to overcome in the initial battle. . . ". . . . Your vision that when you looked at H P B and saw no old woman but a God is correct. You were privileged to see the Truth --- For the Being in that old body called H P Blavatsky is a mighty Adept working on his own plan in the world. And thus we do not need to go to Tibet or S. America to find the sort of Being so many wish to see. Yet having seen the reality better keep silent and work with that in view. For even did you go and tell Him you knew He was there he would smile while he waited for you to do something such as you could in your limited sphere. For flattery counts not and professions are worse than useless. But it is a great thing to see as much as you have, and a greater thing it will be if you do not doubt for you may never see it again. . . . " William Quan Judge, Practical Occultism, p. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/prac-oc/po10.htm Two Persons in Madame Blavatsky In a letter dated February 23, 1887, HPB wrote to William Judge: "Yes there are 'two persons' in me. But what of that? So are there two in you; only mine is conscious & responsible & yours is not." The Theosophical Forum, July 1932, p. 226 " 'Two persons' in me"? What does that phrase mean? In the Glossary appended to the 2nd edition (1890) of The Key to Theosophy, HPB writes about the "two Egos in man": "Esoteric philosophy teaches the existence of two Egos in man, the mortal or personal, and the higher, the divine or impersonal, calling the former 'personality,' and the latter 'individuality.' " (See entry on "Ego.") In another glossary definition, HPB writes that "Individuality," is one "of the names given in Theosophy and Occultism to the human Higher Ego. We make a distinction between the immortal and divine and the mortal human Ego. . . ." Elsewhere in the glossary, we find this: "The Individuality is the Higher Ego (Manas) of the Triad considered as a Unity. In other words the Individuality is our imperishable Ego which reincarnates and clothes itself in a new Personality at every new birth." Let us now give a number of statements by HPB in which she apparently refers to the conscious Individuality within her: "Do you believe that, because you have fathomed --- as you think---my physical crust and brain; that shrewd analyst of human nature though you be---you have ever penetrated even beneath the first cuticles of my Real Self ? You would gravely err, if you did...You DO NOT KNOW me; for whatever there is INSIDE it, is NOT WHAT YOU THINK it is; and- --to judge of me therefore, as of one UNTRUTHFUL is the greatest mistake in the world besides being a flagrant injustice. I (the inner real "I") am in prison and cannot show myself as I am with all the desire I may have to. Why, then, should I, because speaking for myself AS I AM and feel myself to be, why should I be held responsible for the OUTWARD jail-door and ITS appearance, when I have neither built nor yet decorated it ?" Letter of H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett, The Mahatma Letters, 2nd ed., pp. 465-466. ". . . I am enough of an occultist to know that before we find the Master within our own hearts and seventh principle --- we need an outside Master....I got my drop from my Master (the living one)....He is a Saviour, he who leads you to finding the Master within yourself. . . . " Letters of H.P. Blavatsky to Franz Hartmann, The Path , Volume X, p. 367. ". . . I venerate the Masters, and worship MY MASTER --- the sole creator of my inner Self which but for His calling it out, awakening it from its slumber, would never have come to conscious being --- not in this life, at all events..." Letters of H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett, p. 104 "Several times a day I feel that besides me there is someone else, quite separable from me, present in my body. I never lose the consciousness of my own personality; what I feel is as if I were keeping silent and the other one -- the lodger who is in me -- were speaking with my tongue. For instance, I know that I have never been in the places which are described by my 'other me', but this other one -- the second me -- does not lie when he tells about places and things unknown to me, because he has actually seen them and knows them well. I have given it up: let my fate conduct me at its own sweet will; and besides, what am I to do? It would be perfectly ridiculous if I were to deny the possession of knowledge avowed by my No. 2, giving occasion to the people around me to imagine that I keep them in the dark for modesty's sake. In the night, when I am alone in my bed, the whole life of my No. 2 passes before my eyes, and I do not see myself at all, but quite a different person -- different in race and different in feelings." The Path, December 1894, http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/blavlet1.htm "Do not be afraid that I am off my head. All that I can say is that someone positively inspires me. . . . more than this: someone enters me. It is not I who talk and write: it is something within me, my higher and luminous Self, that thinks and writes for me. Do not ask me, my friend, what I experience, because I could not explain it to you clearly. I do not know myself! The one thing I know is that now, when I am about to reach old age, I have become a sort of storehouse of somebody else's knowledge... " It is Something Within Me, My Higher and Luminous Self, that Thinks and Writes for Me. Some students believe that HPB herself reveals that the mighty Adept using the "H.P. Blavatsky" body was a Nirmanakaya. In a letter dated September 15, 1887, Madame Blavatsky writes Mr. Judge: "Begin by being elected both of you [Judge and Elliott Coues] for a year, and then if you are prepared to pledge yourselves both for life - then affairs & events may be turned off by unseen powers into such a groove that you will be unanimously elected for life - just as Olcott & I were - to go on with the work after our deaths. Do you understand what it means? It means that unless you consent, you force me to a miserable life & a miserable death with the idea preying on my mind that there is an end of theosophy. That for several years I will not be able to help it on & stir its course, because I will have to act in a body which will have to be assimilated to the Nirmanakaya, because even in Occultism there are such things as a failure, & a retardment, and a misfit. But you don't understand me, I see." http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/hpbwqj91587.htm Here HPB writes that following her death "I will have to act in a body which will have to be assimilated to the Nirmanakaya." Since this assimilation can take years, she was concerned that "I will not be able to help" the Theosophical cause and movement for that period of time. Here is what HPB writes in her glossary to the Key to Theosophy about a "Nirmanakaya": ". . . Occultism...says...that Nirmanakaya, although meaning literally a transformed "body," is a state. The form is that of the Adept or Yogi who enters, or chooses, that post-mortem condition in preference to the Dharmakaya or absolute Nirvanic state. He does this because the latter Kaya separates him for ever from the world of form, conferring upon him a state of selfish bliss, in which no other living being can participate, the adept being thus precluded from the possibility of helping humanity, or even devas. As a Nirmanakaya, however, the adept leaves behind him only his physical body, and retains every other "principle" save the Kamic, for he has crushed this out for ever from his nature during life, and it can never resurrect in his post-mortem state. Thus, instead of going into selfish bliss, he chooses a life of self-sacrifice, an existence which ends only with the life-cycle, in order to be enabled to help mankind in an invisible, yet most effective, manner. . . . Thus a Nirmanakaya is...verily one who, whether a Chutuktu or a Khubilkhan, an adept or a Yogi during life, has since become a member of that invisible Host which ever protects and watches over humanity within Karmic limits. Mistaken often for a "Spirit," a Deva, God himself, &c., a Nirmanakaya is ever a protecting, compassionate, verily a guardian, angel to him who is worthy of his help...." Who "Incarnated" into the Blavatsky Body? Let us first give two suggestive statements from the letters of Mahatma Koot Hoomi that may shed some light on this question. Referring to Madame Blavatsky, Master K.H. wrote: "After nearly a century of fruitless search, our Chiefs had to avail themselves of the only opportunity to send out a European body upon European soil to serve as a connecting link between that country and our own." The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett, Letter No. 26, K.H.'s Confidential Memo about Old Lady [HPB]. Received Simla, Autumn, 1881., http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml- 26.htm Italics added. In another letter the Master wrote: "The Tchang-chub (an adept who has, by the power of his knowledge and soul enlightenment, become exempt from the curse of UNCONSCIOUS transmigration) --- may, at his will and desire, and instead of reincarnating himself only after bodily death, do so, and repeatedly - -- during his life if he chooses. He holds the power of choosing for himself new bodies -- whether on this or any other planet --- while in possession of his old form, that he generally preserves for purposes of his own." The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett, Letter No. 49, http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-49.htm Italics added to "new bodies". Madame Blavatsky also wrote a very interesting and suggestive remark in Lucifer: "It had also escaped him [A.P. Sinnett] for the moment, no doubt, that among the group of Initiates to which his [Sinnett's] own mystical correspondent [Koot Hoomi] is allied, are two [Initiates] of European race, and that one [Initiate] who is that Teacher's [Koot Hoomi's] Superior is also of that origin [European], being half a Slavonian in his 'present incarnation,' as he himself wrote to Colonel Olcott in New York. " Lucifer, October, 1888, p. 173; reprinted in H.P.B.'s Collected Writings, Volume X, p. 153 Italics added. This is a quite fascinating statement by HPB that Koot Hoomi's Superior was of European origin and was "half a Slavonian in his 'present incarnation.' " HPB also tells us that this latter information was conveyed to Colonel Olcott in New York in a letter written by the Adept Superior. The anonymous author of The Theosophical Movement (1925 edition, p 378) pens a valuable suggestion about this passage: "Just why H.P.B. should put the phrase 'present incarnation' in quotes is worth some intuitional effort, as is also the fact that 'H.P.B.' was herself precisely and exactly 'half a Slavonian' in her then 'present incarnation.' " Who Was Master K.H.'s Superior Who Was European and Half a Slavonian in His "Present Incarnation"? Pursuing this intuitional effort, let us examine some other primary sources. A.P. Sinnett had a remarkable encounter with the Master K.H. Sinnett wrote in a brief note of the experience: "I saw K.H. in astral form on the night of 19th of October, 1880, --- waking up for a moment but immediately afterwards being rendered unconscious again (in the body) and conscious out of the body in the adjacent dressing-room where I saw another of the Brothers afterwards identified with one called 'Serapis' by Olcott, --- 'the youngest of the chohans.' " The Mahatma Letters, Letter No. 3a in the first three editions. Some four years later, while William Judge was in London and on a visit to Mr. Sinnett's home, the following interesting conversation ensued. Mr. Judge wrote: "I asked him [A.P. Sinnett] about his sight of K.H. and he related thus: 'He was lying in his bed in India one night [see above], when suddenly awakening, he found K.H. standing by his bed. He rose half up, when K.H. put his hand on his head, causing him to fall at once back on the pillow. He then, he says, found himself out of the body, and in the next room, talking to another adept whom he describes as an English or European, with light hair, fair, and of great beauty. This is the one [adept] Olcott described to me in 1876 and called by name -------. Please erase that when read. . . . S[innett] says he [the European adept] is very high. . . ." Letters That Have Helped Me, Theosophy Company edition, p. 196. Notice that this adept called Serapis is described as "English or European, with light hair, fair, and of great beauty." In 1883, Colonel Olcott was healing people with his mesmeric "power". He relates the following experience: "On the day in question, while under treatment for his eyes, upon which business my thoughts were closely concentrated, [Badrinath Babu, the patient] . . . suddenly began describing a shining man whom he saw looking benevolently on him. His clairvoyant sight, had, it seemed, become partially developed, and what he saw was through closed eyelids. From the minute description he then proceeded to give me, I could not fail to recognise the portrait of one of the most revered of our Masters. . . .[Badrinath] described to me an individual with blue eyes, light flowing hair, light beard, and European features and complexion. . . . The description...fitted accurately a real personage, the Teacher of our Teachers [KH and M.], a Paramaguru, as one such is called in India, and who had given me a small colored sketch of himself in New York, before we left for Bombay. . . ." Old Diary Leaves, Volume III, 430-1 It is on record that the Master Serapis gave Colonel Olcott "a small colored sketch of himself in New York." See Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, Series II. Concerning Colonel Olcott's mesmeric healing, Master Koot Hoomi wrote to A.P. Sinnett: "This [healing] is all done thro' the power of a lock of hair sent by our beloved younger Chohan to H. S. O." This is KH's comment on a newspaper article titled "Cures Effected by Colonel Olcott in Calcutta by Mesmeric Passes" that was published in the Calcutta Indian Mirror. See The Letters of H. P. Blavatsky to A. P. Sinnett, Appendix III, http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-aps/bl-ap3.htm Confirmation that the Superior or Master of both Masters Koot Hoomi and Morya was Serapis is again found in this statement by Henry Olcott: "One of the greatest of them, the Master of the two Masters [KH and M] about whom the public has heard. . . . , wrote me on June 22, 1875: 'The time is come to let you know who I am. I am not a disembodied spirit, Brother, I am a living man; gifted with such powers by our Lodge as are in store for yourself some day. I cannot be with you otherwise than in spirit, for thousands of miles separate us at present. . . . .' " Old Diary Leaves, Volume I, p. 237. Koot Hoomi's Superior is further mentioned in a letter of HPB's: "K. H. or Koot-Hoomi is now gone to sleep for three months to prepare during this Sumadhi or continuous trance state for his initiation, the last but one, when he will become one of the highest adepts. Poor K. H. his body is now lying cold and stiff in a separate square building of stone with no windows or doors in it, the entrance to which is effected through an underground passage from a door in Toong- ting (reliquary, a room situated in every Thaten (temple) or Lamisery; and his Spirit is quite free. An adept might lie so for years, when his body was carefully prepared for it beforehand by mesmeric passes etc. It is a beautiful spot where he is now in the square tower. The Himalayas on the right and a lovely lake near the lamisery. His Cho-han (spiritual instructor, master, and the Chief of a Tibetan Monastery) takes care of his body. M[orya] also goes occasionally to visit him. . . . "Now Morya lives generally with Koot-Hoomi who has his house in the direction of the Kara Korum Mountains, beyond Ladak, which is in Little Tibet and belongs now to Kashmire. It is a large wooden building in the Chinese fashion pagoda-like, between a lake and a beautiful mountain. . . . They come out very rarely. But they can project their astral forms anywhere." Letter from H. P. B. to Mrs. Hollis Billings, Simla. Oct. 2. 1881. The Theosophical Forum (Point Loma, California), May 1936, pp. 343-346, http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/hpbhollisbillings.htm >From the above material, it would appear that Serapis, one of the Chiefs or Chohans of the Occult Brotherhood, was the Superior or Teacher of both Master K.H. and Master M. Furthermore, Serapis (being a Nirmanakaya) had taken on his "present incarnation" using the "old body" called H.P. Blavatsky as a instrument for his "life of self-sacrifice." These insights help us to understand more fully the significance of KH's words about H.P. Blavatsky: "After nearly a century of fruitless search, our Chiefs had to avail themselves of the only opportunity to send out a European body upon European soil to serve as a connecting link. . . . " ****************************************************************** --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell " wrote: > Bhakti Ananda Goswami, > > You wrote in part: > > "In HPB's time and culture, it would have been extremely difficult > for her to 'be her/ HIM SELF'. Thus, HPB coped with her frustration > by expressing 'her' MASCULINE GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS. > The men she IDENTIFIED WITH were like the Kashmiri Rajas. Thus > her 'mystical form' as SERAPIS was like these heroic figures. She was > not a girl or women in awe of them, 'she' felt 'herself' to BE ONE OF > THEM. For her, the life of HPB was probably less real than that of > her Mahatmas, especially Master SERAPIS, whom she identified with." > > Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9952 > > I'm wondering exactly how you came to these conclusions. Is this > just mere speculation on your part or do you have some evidence that > would verify your "psychoanalytic" assessment? > > Furthermore, it is hard to understand exactly what you are getting > out. For example, you write: > > "Thus, HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' MASCULINE > GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS." > > What exactly does that mean? > > Can you relate this vague statement of yours, for example, to the > following two accounts? > > Here is the first account. > > In "Old Diary Leaves," Volume II, pp. 254-255, Colonel Olcott wrote > of his encounter with a Master on Oct. 26, 1880 at the Golden Temple > at Amritsar, India: > > "At a shrine where the swords, sharp steel discs, coats of mail, and > other warlike weapons of the Sikh warrior priests are exposed to view > in charge of the akalis, I was greeted, to my surprise and joy, with > a loving smile by one of the Masters, who for the moment was figuring > among the guardians, and who gave each of us [HPB and Olcott] a fresh > rose, with a blessing in his eyes." > > In Olcott's own handwritten diary, the entry for October 26, 1880 > reads: > > "...In the afternoon we went to the Golden Temple again & found it as > lovely as before. Saw some hundreds of fakirs & gossains more or less > ill-favored. A Brother there saluted H.P.B. and me & gave us each a > rose." > > B.A.G., how does this encounter with a Master relate to your > statement that "HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' > MASCULINE GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS." > > Or take the second account. > > Colonel Olcott tells us: > > "[On July 15, 1879, Mahatma Morya] visited me in the flesh at Bombay, > coming in full daylight, and on horseback. He had me called by a > servant into the front room of HPB's bungalow (she being at the > time in the other bungalow talking with those who were there). He > came to scold me roundly for something I had done in TS matters, and > as HPB was also to blame, he telegraphed to her to come, that is to > say, he turned his face and extended his finger in the direction of > the place she was in. She came over at once with a rush and, seeing > him, dropped on her knees and paid him reverence. My voice and his > had been heard by those in the other bungalow, but only HPB and I, > and the servant saw him." > > Quoted from: Hume, A. O. Hints on Esoteric Theosophy, No. 1: Is > Theosophy a Delusion? Do the Brothers Exist? Calcutta, India: > Calcutta Central Press, 1882. > > In Colonel Olcott's diary for July 15, 1879, the following entry > is written: "[I] had visit in body of the Sahib!! [He] sent Babula to > my room to call me to HPB's bungalow, and there we had a most > important private interview. Alas! how puerile and vain these men > make one feel by contrast with them." > > Please tell us B.A.G. how your statements quoted at the beginning of > this posting relate to these two encounters with HPB's Masters. > > As regards your vague statements about Serapis, can your relate your > statement to the testimonies I gave in the following posting? > > See my posting at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9959 > > Daniel H. Caldwell > > --------------------------------------- > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://blavatskyarchives.com > Publishes rare & hard-to-find source > documents on Madame H.P. Blavatsky. > --------------------------------------- > ESOTERIC WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/esotericworldam.htm > This book contains a unique collection of > rare reminiscences of H.P. Blavatsky's life. > --------------------------------------- > Theosophyonthe.NET > http://theosophyonthe.net > Easy Net Access to the Classics of Theosophy > --------------------------------------- > Theosophy.INFO > http://theosophy.info > Introductions to Theosophy > --------------------------------------- > You can always access our main site > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES by simply typing > into the URL address bar the following > 6 characters: hpb.cc From jpcondick@btinternet.com Sat Dec 28 12:20:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 20:20:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 54789 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 20:20:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 20:20:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lutetium.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.116) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 20:20:30 -0000 Received: from host62-7-15-107.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([62.7.15.107] helo=oemcomputer) by lutetium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #16) id 18SNRb-00018E-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:20:28 +0000 Message-ID: <011601c2aeae$a8d6ff00$555701d5@oemcomputer> To: References: <3E0DF5C0.8520CBCC@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:16:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart Lidofsky" To: Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines > "Steve Stubbs " wrote: > > of the Egyptian Moses by the exodus writer. Apparently this "other" > > Moses relates to a time when the Hebrews worshipped a volcano, > > probably with an interest to placating it so it would not destroy > > their community. > > However, this "volcano worship" is a matter of pure speculation based > on word-twisting, not a matter of historical fact. > > Bart Dear Friends, The passages below should leave us in no dought as to which side Our Sister in Light, Alice Ann Bailey and the Master Djwhal Khul stood for in the War against the forces of Darkness. Indeed Mrs Bailey described Hitler as a "Human Monster". They as we, Stand for the Great White Brotherhood. All the best for the New Year! Jeremy. The Externalization of the Hierarchy - Section II - The General World Picture AAB. The Axis World OrderThe totalitarian order must go because it is contrary to the spiritual vision. The world order, as visioned by Hitler, is based upon the subjection of the weak to the rule of a super-Germany; it is one in which the life of the little nations will be allowed to go on just in so far as they serve the need of Germany. The lesser Axis powers are permitted existence only because they benefit German aims - Italy, to give Germany scope in the Mediterranean; Japan, to handle the Asiatic problem which is too large for Germany to handle alone. It is an order whose intention is that the best of all industrial and agricultural products shall go to Germany and the unwanted residue to the little nations. It is an order [188] in which the educational processes will be controlled by the dominant super-race. All departments of knowledge will be subordinated to the glorification of Germany. Germany will be portrayed as the seed of all world glory, and as the ruthless savior of mankind; the beauties of war, of struggle and of physical strength will be emphasized, and these so-called admirable objectives of the human spirit will be developed to produce a race of men in whom the "effeminate" beauties of loving kindness and wise consideration for others will find no place. I would call your attention to the teaching now being given to the German youth. Might is right. The German belongs to the super-race, and all other races are inferior. Only a chosen aristocracy should be permitted the privilege of education and of rule. The masses of the people are no more than cattle and exist only to be slaves of the superior race. War is to men what childbirth is to women. War is a natural process and therefore eternally right. All sources of supply must be controlled by Germany, and consequently even those nations at present neutral must be brought under the German sphere of influence. The totalitarian powers will dominate the economic system of the world and control all imports and exports. The standard of living in both hemispheres will be lowered; everything will be related to the good of Germany, and no other nation will be considered. Christian teaching and Christian ethics must necessarily be eliminated, because Germany regards Christianity and its divine Founder as effeminate and weak, as emphasizing the softer qualities of human nature, and as responsible for the decadence of all nations, except Germany. Christianity must also be overthrown because it is based on Jewish sources; the rule of Christ must come to an end, because only the rule of force is right. In the world order of the Axis powers, the individual has no rights; he has no freedom except in so far as he serves the state; there will be no liberty of thought or conscience, all issues will be decided by the state, and the private citizen [189] will have no right to an opinion. Men will be drafted like slaves into the service of the state. Such is the picture of the order which the Axis powers are preparing to impose upon the world, and to this their own words testify. Only insight into the true nature of this crisis, a determination to face the facts, and fearlessness will suffice to defeat Hitler. This conquering fearlessness must be based on a recognition of the spiritual values involved, on a belief in God, and on a common sense which is determined to establish security, right human relations and liberty. It is important that people face up to the facts immediately. They must realize what is the nature of the world order which Hitler is preparing to enforce, and what lies ahead of humanity if the Axis powers triumph. It is essential that the little children of the world be rescued from this over-shadowing evil and from the false education to which they will be subjected if the totalitarian powers hold Europe in their grasp. The intensive culture given to the youth of Germany during the past twenty years has proved the effects of environing mental attitudes. These boys who roll their tanks and fly their planes over the countries of Europe and who wage war on women and children are the product of an educational system, and are therefore the victims of an evil process. The children of Germany must be rescued from the future which Hitler plans, as well as the children of other countries; the women of Germany must be set free from fear, as must the women in other lands; the population of Germany must also be liberated from the evil rule of Hitler. This is recognized by the allied nations. Make no mistake. The German is as dear to the heart of humanity, to God, to Christ and to all right thinking people as are any other people. The German must be rescued from Hitler's world order as much as the Pole, the Jew, the Czech or any captive nation. In effecting this freedom, the allied nations and the neutral powers must preserve the spirit of goodwill, even when using force, which is the only means of conquest the totalitarian powers understand. [190] The Forces of Evil sought for those leaders and groups who are the materialistic correspondence to the spiritual leaders and those who seek to guide humanity along right lines. They took possession (and I use this word with deliberation) of the evil men who led the Axis Powers - Hitler, Tojo, Goebbels, Ribbentrop, Himmler and - to a much lesser degree - Mussolini, Hess, Goering and others. They completely overpowered the minds of these men, already distorted with ambition and sadistic inclinations. Who, you ask, do I mean by "they"? I mean those intelligent evil, unloving, hateful Individualities who are to the world of selfish and material focus what the Hierarchy of Masters, working under the Christ, are to struggling human aspirants. The power of these evil forces is enormous, for they recognize no restrictions or ordinary decent, human limitations; they work through violence, coercion, cruelty, hate, terror and lies; they aim to subjugate the human consciousness through the complete control of men's minds, through the withholding of good and the promulgation of evil. AAB. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Dec 28 12:31:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 20:31:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 95528 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 20:31:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 20:31:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.71) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 20:31:04 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.142] by n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 20:31:04 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:31:01 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism TYPO CORRECTED AND CLARIFICATION Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2421 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.39 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn Dear Steve Stubbs, I did post my index here for the members' easy referal. It is Message 9953, Date: Fri Dec 27, 2002 2:30 am Subject: BA G's BIO-ETHICS REPORT ON SEX DIFFERENTIATION There is some introductory information and then a table of contents before the detailed topical index. I use only the very best of references in my work, so the information in my report is from the world's top experts and institutions. The report is NOT about the so-called psychology of sex, because it deals with the pure biology of sex differentiation and sex dimorphic behavior. The report is concerned with what is known about the purely physical causes and outcomes of reproductive health, related behavior and 'disorders' in vertebral animals and man. best wishes, BA G --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Stubbs " wrote: > Deat BAG: > > Many thanks for your interesting comments. Yes, psychiatrists > consider GID to be "non-specific aetiology," which means it exists, > but cannot be traced to any specific medical condition. Your > comments are very thought proboking indeed. I certainly agree with > you that religious and other groups need to stop sticking their noses > where they do not belong and distirting what should be a scientific > question. > > You mention your "index", papers, and so on. Are they published or > on the Internet, or how does one refer to them? I susepct your > compl;ete paper answers a lot of other questions that have rolled iy > my mind since I took DSM IV classes. > > Jung theorized that if you are consciously a male, your unconscious > mind is a female, and v.v. Whether he was right or not I cannot say, > but I can see how at least in theory if unconscious contents are > pressing into coonsciousness more easily than they do in "normal" > people (a condition one sees in both schizophrenics and seers) one > could have an alter ego which was of the opposite sex from one's > persona. It would not be surprising to see something like this in > someone who is perfectly sane but who nonetheless had easier than > normal intercommunication between the conscious and unconscious > minds, as someone like HPB would have had. (I am assuming she did > have psychic experiences as she says she did, and that the boundary > between these two autonomous psychic regions was therefore porous.) From micforster@yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 14:41:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 22:41:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 75438 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 22:41:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 22:41:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13408.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.66) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 22:41:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20021228224102.73587.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.60.255.132] by web13408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:41:02 PST Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:41:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: H P B and Theosophical Philosophy To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Dear Dallas, Thank you very much for the below passage. WQJ showed a lot of clarity in that article. However, I still remain a little sceptical. The basis of Theosophy, as I interpreted it, is the commonness between all religions and modes of thought that have been passed down throughout the ages. Assuming that this is correct, how do we know that the knowledge passed down through the ages is not just some human psychological condition to explain the unknown? Just as all humans have sense and perception limitations that can lead to illusions, could not we also have some thinking limitation that blinds us and leads all to the same conclusion? Up to about 2 years ago I considered religion as the invention of the elite to conserve their lot. Perhaps my experience with Christianity up to that point in time led to that conclusion. But can you see where I am coming from? How do we truly know that we are not merely deluding ourselves with a delusion that is ageless as man himself? Regards, Mic --- dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > Dec 28 2002 > > Dear Mic: > > Re: Concerning the study of Philosophy at the > University level > > At the risk of being thrown out of court, let me > offer you to read if > you have not already a synopsis of Theosophical > Philosophy. And ask > you to compare it with the description you make of > philosophy taught > at college. I recall going through a somewhat > similar experience > (40s) at Bombay University. I switched to Science. > > This made sense to me and also gave me a "starting > point." Inquire, > inquire and seek the source and base of any > observation or statement > made. Continually ask WHY. > > The theories and hypotheses are constructs. They > are hopes and > imaginings. What trust can we give to their > actuality? > > We have to confine our study to observation and > common sense, not > speculate on anything which we are not directly > cognizant of. There > has to be honesty and sincerity, and rigorous logic. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > see what you think of this: > > -------------------- > THEOSOPHY GENERALLY STATED > > The claim is made that an impartial study of > history, religion and > literature will show the existence from ancient > times of a great body > of philosophical, scientific and ethical doctrine > forming the basis > and origin of all similar thought in modern systems. > It is at once > religious and scientific, asserting that religion > and science should > never be separated. It puts forward sublime > religious and ideal > teachings, but at the same time shows that all of it > can be > demonstrated to reason, and that authority other > than that has no > place, thus preventing the hypocrisy which arises > from asserting > dogmas on authority which no one can show as resting > on reason. > > This ancient body of doctrine is known as the > "Wisdom Religion" and > was always taught by adepts or initiates therein who > preserve it > through all time. Hence, and from other doctrines > demonstrated, it is > shown that man, being spirit and immortal, is able > to perpetuate his > real life and consciousness, and has done so during > all time in the > persons of those higher flowers of the human race > who are members of > an ancient and high brotherhood who concern > themselves with the soul > development of man, held by them to include every > process of evolution > on all planes. > > The initiates, being bound by the law of evolution, > must work with > humanity as its development permits. Therefore from > time to time they > give out again and again the same doctrine which > from time to time > grows obscured in various nations and places. This > is the wisdom > religion, and they are the keepers of it. At times > they come to > nations as great teachers and "saviours," who only > re-promulgate the > old truths and system of ethics. This therefore > holds that humanity > is capable of infinite perfection both in time and > quality, the > saviours and adepts being held up as examples of > that possibility. > > From this living and presently acting body of > perfected men H. P. > Blavatsky declared she received the impulse to once > more bring forward > the old ideas, and from them also received several > keys to ancient and > modern doctrines that had been lost during modern > struggles toward > civilization, and also that she was furnished by > them with some > doctrines really ancient but entirely new to the > present day in any > exoteric shape. These she wrote among the other > keys furnished by her > to her fellow members and the world at large. > Added, then, to the > testimony through all time found in records of all > nations we have > this modern explicit assertion that the ancient > learned and > humanitarian body of adepts still exists on this > earth and takes an > interest in the development of the race. > > Theosophy postulates an eternal principle called the > unknown, which > can never be cognized except through its > manifestations. This eternal > principle is in and is every thing and being; t > periodically and > eternally manifests itself and recedes again from > manifestation. In > this ebb and flow evolution proceeds and itself is > the progress of the > manifestation. > > The perceived universe is the manifestation of this > unknown, including > spirit and matter, for Theosophy holds that those > are but the two > opposite poles of the one unknown principle. They > coexist, are not > separate nor separable from each other, or, as the > Hindu scriptures > say, there is no particle of matter without spirit, > and no particle of > spirit without matter. > > In manifesting itself the spirit-matter > differentiates on seven > planes, each more dense on the way down to the plane > of our senses > than its predecessors the substance in all being the > same, only > differing in degree. > > Therefore from this view the whole universe is > alive, not one atom of > it being in any sense dead. It is also conscious > and intelligent, its > consciousness and intelligence being resent on all > planes though > obscured on this one. On this plane of ours the > spirit focalizes > itself in all human beings who choose to permit it > to do so, and the > refusal to permit it is the cause of ignorance, of > sin. of all sorrow > and suffering. > > In all ages some have come to this high state, have > grown to be as > gods, are partakers actively in the work of nature, > and go on from > century to century widening their consciousness and > increasing the > scope of their government in nature. > > This is the destiny of all beings, and hence at the > outset Theosophy > postulates this perfectibility of the race, removes > the idea of innate > un-regenerable wickedness, and offers a purpose and > an aim for life > which is consonant with the longings of the soul and > with its real > nature, tending at the same time to destroy > pessimism with its > companion, despair. > > In Theosophy the world is held to be the product of > the evolution of > the principle spoken of from the very lowest first > forms of life > guided as it proceeded by intelligent perfected > beings from other and > older evolutions, and compounded also of the egos or > individual > spirits for and by whom it emanates. > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From micforster@yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 14:48:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 22:48:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 79499 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 22:48:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 22:48:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13404.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.62) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 22:48:27 -0000 Message-ID: <20021228224827.48441.qmail@web13404.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.60.255.132] by web13404.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:48:27 PST Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:48:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism TYPO CORRECTED AND CLARIFICATION To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <00a101c2aea7$058be1a0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Etzion, That would be great, cheers. Mic --- Etzion Becker wrote: > My Israeli Theosophical friends read a booklet which > I published a few years > ago containing six *conversations* my Master gave to > His disciples > concerning the formation of the ego and its > termination, and the way to > eliminate sanskaras (the name he used for the > enslaving impressions which > adhere to our subconscious minds and compel us to > take births non stop, and > also compels the person to act without self control. > They published these > conversations in their bimonthly magazine. They are > good, trust me. I have > the file also in English. If so you wish, I can send > one at a time. Etzion > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mic Forster" > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 10:41 AM > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Alleged certificate re > hermaphroditism TYPO > CORRECTED AND CLARIFICATION > > > > Thanks Etzion, just making sure we are all still > on > > the ball. But I'm a scientist at heart and before > I > > can be convinced of something I really need > tangible > > proof (well something close to tangible anyway). > At > > the beginning of this year at university I decided > to > > do some extra subjects and consequently I > undertook > > philosophy. Well I enjoyed the lectures but after > one > > tutorial I chucked it in with sheer frustration. > Those > > guys couldn't make up their minds on anything!!! > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Dec 28 15:27:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 23:27:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 37204 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 23:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 23:27:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 23:27:43 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a493ec.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.236]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id ACD4F5EE3DA for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:27:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000801c2aec7$ccdaa000$ec93a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <1040904054.284.51331.m12@yahoogroups.com> <000801c2adee$2ad02160$1fe0ba3f@zackl> <00ed01c2aea7$5e88f2c0$555701d5@oemcomputer> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: HPB and the Bailey doctrines Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:21:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hallo all of you, Got mit uns, Salam Aleikum, Just to let you know. At present - My problem is the below - coming from Alice A. Bailey (Esoteric Psychology I, p.167). The word "NOT" was emphasized by me. The first quote below (Problems of Humanity p. 162) is sort of sweet. But the last quote below (Esoteric Psychology I, p.167), I just don't get. My head starts spinning >:-) With such a remark, as made by Bailey in the below, and supported by some followers, one clearly will be creating, OR, indeed ARE creating problems Internationally ! With the present attitude among the Bailey-followers towards the Middle East, problems are created, for sure. If the attitudes of the Bailey-followers are claimed to be proper and right towards the Middle East, - then, I, a former Bailey-member just have to say, that their Public Relations - stinks. (Just a view: And this book: "A LEARNING EXPERIENCE" - by Mary Bailey, by the way states, that the Bailey-followers ought not to turn the Bailey-books in to a Bible-collection. --- And yet I have to say, I have seen a great number of the Bailey-followers to exactly that. And if it is not the Bailey-followers intention to do this, the Lucis Trust, certainly - badly needs changing, when we talk PR - i.e. Public Relations). Well, these are just views from a former Bailey-member. And these issues are especially important, because - some- Bailey-groups today have influences reaching deeply (and at high levels) into the United Nations politics - and the Meditation Room at the United Nations Head Quarters, which for some stranges reason - has not been placed somewhere in the Middle East...! Let us remember, and not forget, that we live in an information-society. Please... Any comments from pro-Bailey's on that one ? Anyone?: ******************** ******************** Problems of Humanity p. 162 ******************** "The establishing of a measure of uniformity of procedure will not prove so difficult once a measure of unity on the spiritual essentials has been achieved. This carefully determined uniformity will aid men everywhere to strengthen each other's work and enhance powerfully the stream of thought energy which can be directed towards those spiritual Lives, working under the Christ, Who stand expectantly waiting to come to the aid of humanity. At present the Christian religion has its great Festivals; the Buddhist keeps his particular set of spiritual events, and the Hindu has still another list of holy days, as has also the Mohammedan. Is it not possible that in the world of the future, men everywhere and of all faiths will keep the same holy days and unite in honor of the same Festivals? This will bring about a pooling of spiritual resources and a united spiritual effort, plus a simultaneous spiritual invocation. The potency of this is surely apparent." ******************** ******************** Esoteric Psychology I, p.167 ******************** "Every great religion which arises is under the influence of one or other of the rays, but it does not necessarily follow that each successive ray should have a great far-reaching religion as its outcome. We have heard that Brahmanism is the last great religion which arose under first ray influence; we do not know what may have been the religion which was the outcome of the last second ray period; but the Chaldean, the Egyptian and the Zoroastrian religions may be taken as representing the third, the fourth, and the fifth rays respectively. Christianity and probably Buddhism were the result of sixth ray influence. Mohammedanism, which numbers so large a following, is also under sixth ray influence, but it is NOT a great root religion, being a hybrid offshoot of Christianity with the tinge of Judaism." I will now return and listen to the speech "I've been to the Mountain Top" by Martin Luther King Jr. See you around or round...>:-) from M. Sufilight with a hope for PEACE on Earth... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Condick" To: Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 8:27 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: HPB and the Nazi doctrines > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Zack Lansdowne" > To: > Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 9:22 PM > Subject: Theos-World Re: HPB and the Nazi doctrines > > > > Bart wrote: > > > Well, Blavatsky was long dead when the Nazi's started. Many attribute > > > the statements of Alice Bailey, who, in spite of her spiritual > > > connections, was something of a bigot (she felt Blacks were inferior, > > > Jews deserved any bad thing that happened to them because of their > > > rejection of Jesus, and that all homosexuals were inherently evil), and > > > made a number of statements supportive of the Nazi's. > > > > > > > I have the complete set of Alice Bailey's 24 books on CD-ROM, and so I > > decided to check the accuracy of Bart's claim that Alice Bailey "made a > > number of statements supportive of the Nazi's." By doing a search on the > > word "Nazi", I learned that Bailey, in her books, used this word exactly > > nine times. The paragraphs in which she used this word are as follows: > > > > 1) The dangers growing out of hate, revenge and pain. These dangers will > be > > the most difficult to avoid. A deep-seated hatred of the Nazi regime (and > of > > the German nation as endorsing that regime) is steadily rising. This is > > almost inevitable, being based on the facts of Nazi activity. The task of > > the United Nations after the war will of necessity be-among other > things-to > > protect the German people from the hate of those whom they have so > > appallingly abused. This will be no easy thing to do. Retribution and > > revenge must not be permitted, and yet at the same time a just payment for > > evil action cannot, and should not, be avoided. The law ever works, and > that > > law states that whatsoever a man or nation sows, that shall it also reap. > > Germany has sown evil broadcast throughout the civilised world, and for > some > > time to come her lot must be hard and she will have to pay in sweat and > toil > > and tears for her evil deeds. But this payment should be part of the great > > work of rehabilitation and not a vengeful exaction, and if this is borne > in > > mind, no serious mistakes will be made. The German people must work > > strenuously to put right the evil they have done, as far as in them lies, > > but the next generation-at present in the cradle or at school-must not be > > penalised. (Bailey, Externalization of the Hierarchy, pp. 370-371)... > > > The above paragraphs contain all of the instances in which Alice Bailey > used > > the word "Nazi" in her 24 books. Nowhere do I see any justification for > > Bart's claim that Alice Bailey "made a number of statements supportive of > > the Nazi's." > > > > > > Zack Lansdowne. > > Dear Bart, I have done a search [nazism] looking for your suggestion that > AAB was supportive of the Nazi Third Reich, yet have only come up with this > which alongside the work of Zack does not add support to your proclamation. > A passage from "Problems Of Humanity" AAB, is also included for your future > reference. > > Kindest Regards > Jeremy > > > "The ancient and inherited ideas which have controlled the racial life for > centuries -aggression for the sake of possession and the authority of a man > or a group or a church which represents the State. For purposes of policy > such powers may work behind the scenes but their tenets and motives are > easily recognizable - selfish ambition and a violently imposed authority. > Those ideas which are relatively new such as Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, > though they are not really as new as people are apt to think. They are alike > on one important point, i.e. The State or community of human beings counts > as of importance whilst the individual does not; he can be sacrificed at any > time for the good of the State or for the so-called general good. [9] > Destiny Of The Nations. AAB. > > It is here that the power of speech makes itself felt, just as in the > department of religion or of education the power of the written word, of the > printed page, is felt. In the field of politics, the masses are swayed by > their orators, and never more so than now through the use of the radio. > Great ideas are dinned into the ear of the public without cessation - > theories as to dictatorship, communism, nazism, fascism, marxism, > nationalism and democratic ideals. Methods of rule by this or that group of > thinkers are presented to the public, leaving them no time for > consideration, or for clear thinking. Racial antipathies are spread, and > personal preferences and illusions find expression, bringing about the > deception of the unthinking. [115] The man who has a golden tongue, the man > who has the gift of playing with words and can voice with emphasis people's > grievances, the juggler in statistics, the fanatic with a certain and sure > cure for social ills and the man who loves to fan race hatreds, can ever get > a following. Such men can with facility upset the balance of the community > and lead a body of unthinking adherents to a transient success and power, or > to obloquy and oblivion. Education In New Age. AAB. > > Shamballa force (in spite of its attendant risks) to pour into the world. > The objective was to stimulate the free will of the masses; the result upon > them has been relatively good as it has led to the formulation and > expression of the great world ideologies -Fascism, [127] Democracy and > Communism as well as that peculiarly distorted blend of Fascism and > Communism which goes by the name of Hitlerism or Nazism. All these > ideologies are fostered by the desire of the masses for the betterment of > the condition in which the populace in any country lives and it has become > focused, expressive and creative by the force of the Shamballa influence. > But another result of this inflow of the will-to-power has been to stimulate > a certain group of outstanding personalities in many lands so that they have > assumed control of the masses and can thus determine the policies and > methods -religious, political and social - of the different nations. In > every nation a relatively small group of people decide all important issues > and determine all major national activities. This they do either by force, > terror and deception or by persuasion, fair words and the application of > ideological motives. Externalisation Of The Hierarchy. AAB. > > These nations want understanding cooperation; they want the implements for > agriculture, immediate relief in food and clothing, plus the wherewithal to > start again their educational institutions, to organize their schools and to > equip them with what is immediately required. They certainly do not want a > horde of [42] well-meaning people taking over their educational or medical > institutions, or imposing democratic, communistic or any other particular > ideology upon them. Naturally, the principles of Nazism and of Fascism must > be swept away, but the nations must be free to work out their own destiny. > They have each of them their own traditions, cultures and backgrounds. They > are being forced to build anew but what they build must be their own; it > must be distinctive of them and an expression of their own inner life. It is > surely the function of the wealthier and free nations to help them to build > so that the new world can come into being." Problems Of Humanity. AAB. > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From samblo@cs.com Sat Dec 28 15:47:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 23:47:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 51121 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 23:47:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 23:47:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m02.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.5) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 23:47:41 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.ae.349bca7d (17377) for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:47:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:47:38 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 All, I might recommend a work containing many contents cogent to the topics presented to the members. "H.P.Blavatsky-As I Knew Her" "Her Life and Work For Humanity" and "The Great Betrayal" by Alice Leighton Cleather-one of her pupils (Inner Group) with an addendum by Basil Crump 1923 Calcutta and Simla Thacker, Spink & Co. London:W. Thacker& Co. 2 Creed lane, E.C. Ms. Cleather was one of the first of 12 Inner Group Members selected by the Hierarchy and noticed so directly by Madame Blavatsky. Of particular interest :The Narrative about how ,where, when "Universal Brotherhood" came to be placed in the Societys Charter. Of particular interest: Madame Blavatsky's words regards why in 1891 with only 1 Cycle of 9 years until entering the next century and in respect to the Kali Yug and the closure of a 5000 years Cycle it was of Paramount importance to have properly placed the Society in proper form lest it be swept away by the overpowering stream of the Kali Yug. John From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 28 17:06:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 01:06:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 12695 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 01:06:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 01:06:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 01:06:17 -0000 Received: from pool0346.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.189.91] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SRu4-0000gg-00; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 17:06:09 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: HPB and after her -- some T S history Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 17:01:49 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20021228164043.41375.qmail@web41204.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2002 Dear T: As I understand it these lists and "chat-groups" are formed to discuss the philosophy of theosophy. Occasionally matters of event and history arise. They are best resolved on documents and the statements made originally by those concerned. Unfortunately, some correspondents rely too much on memory, and not on facts that can be checked by any one concerned. This causes confusion and debate that it quite unnecessary. Much as I dislike going into the "history of the T S," some things are in plain sight. And while they have nothing to do with the validity of THEOSOPHY, they are snags that draw attention away from the PHILOSOPHY. As such they ought to be laid to rest and there let lie. We have at least two very good histories that concern H P B (apart from her own letters), and accounts made by others who lived around her and were witnesses to various events, the first which I have personally verified from documentary, primary sources is The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875-1950) (300+ pages) & 6.00 Sylvia Cranston's biography THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE AND INFLUENCE OF HELENA BLAVATSKY -- Tarcher/Putnam, New York, 1993 & 30.00 [ Recently the 9th printing in paper back has been issued, price about $ 12.00.] But, however interesting, they do not seem to teach anything except to those who already know of the philosophy and of the inner planes of being and of will force, that are active and visible at times. They are distractions and obstructions for the average student or researcher. The horse riding accident I recall mention of, as H P B speaks of it (see p. 30 of Sylvia Cranston's biography THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE AND INFLUENCE OF HELENA BLAVATSKY -- Tarcher/Putnam, New York, 1993.) By some "miracle" (Masters' help) she went through it unharmed. The nature of any wounds then received, I never have seen mentioned or described. I find that many people try to trivialize important things by referring to events in the personal life of a teacher or messenger. And they derive their own fanciful conclusions -- to the future distraction of readers like you and me, who wonder, and then seek to verify the facts. You will find that sceptics accumulate around every great reformer AFTER their death, and begin speculating about physical reasons for their (the reader or pupil's) lack of understanding -- as though such a deficiency (in their eyes only) was good reason to doubt anything offered or taught. The two things are not congruent. Some, truly inimical, depending on the prevailing like for "gossip," emphasize, or magnify such events and criticism, as though the dust, thus blown, will be made to becloud and surround the subject -- and these imaginings and theories project themselves into the mental processes of others. Researchers like you and me, desire a clear view of what was originally done or said. They call attention to small details, and to "errors" which they say they have found, and set themselves up as editors and authorities. Are we to believe them without any checking ? Do they provide adequate references for their views? You will find that most of the "splits" and sectarianism in religious "belief" (NOT KNOWLEDGE) arises because certain individuals (WHO DO NOT STUDY THOROUGHLY) accept those authorities; and having done so, they refuse to do the necessary individual study to verify (or not) the views divergent from those of the original teacher. "Belief" is the most dangerous of weapons used against the clear thinking of individuals. When they accept they become slaves. The Theosophical Society (not THEOSOPHY, as a philosophy), right after H P B's death began to do this. Members began to drift into seperative ranks of believers of this or that. The attempt at Unity was gradually destroyed. You can see its dire effects today among those who call themselves "theosophists." [ No one, except the Masters of Wisdom, deserve that appellation.] Mr. Judge (for whom H P B spoke in the highest terms) was the first attacked. Thereafter a Man named Leadbeater (in England and at Adyar) set himself up to make changes and develop Theosophy into several areas, where it would meet with some approval from those who did not study, but wanted a cozy nook of belief. I say that any one who is familiar with H P B Theosophy will immediately detect the divergences of Leadbeater "theosophy." But there were those who though much of it, starting with Annie Besant. She however, waited till Col. Olcott died in 1907 to bring this into prominence. Mr. Judge and the whole American THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY section was "excommunicated" by Col. Olcott ( First President T S for LIFE) in July 1995. Thus the T S in A. sailed its own ship and after Judge died in March 1996, under various Presidents it developed its own minor divergent views based on their perception of the original teachings. Emerging from this in 1909, was the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS -- it rejected all novelty or belief, and emphasized (and still does) a careful study of the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS of H P B. It pioneered the reprinting of the original texts books either by a photographic process, or by verbatim editions in carefully re-set type. It has a high regard for the Judge writings not just because of H P B's endorsement, but because of their inherent worth. As an association, it has no membership as such. It is sustained by "associates" -- volunteers who for the past 90 years have supported it by donations of time, money and work. It places the direct relationship of the inquirer / student to the Original Teachings of H P B as the most important part of their learning experience. Each such associate determines for themselves their own rate of progress. Each takes entire responsibility for their own decisions. In the final analysis, no opinion of any kind is worth the hot air, or the printing used in publishing it. New students have, each, to go through the laborious job of proving for themselves the value of anything said or written. Only those who desire, because of impatience (or laziness), a short-cut, and choose the "authority" of another to rely on, find themselves cornered when asked for the logic of their choices. They cannot defend themselves. Reference to original sources strips them of any "hiding place," or individual on which they can place blame for their own shortcomings. Those who have studied, learned and satisfied themselves as to the real value of THEOSOPHY, point to the original teachings, and are able to show how Theosophy is a coherent and consecutive statement of the actual observations made by a band of immortal SPIRITUALLY WISE SAGES who have participated in the evolution of our Earth and Kosmos, and who have recorded their observations of the laws (KARMA -- as it operates everywhere). (S D I 272-3 ) There is nothing that increases or diminishes statements except their own inherent worth. And this has to be individually proved by each sincere and honest student for themselves. Best wishes, Dallas =========================== -----Original Message----- From: T Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 To: dalval14@earthlink.net Subject: HPB Dear Dallas, Wow! What an interesting conversation folks are having on Theos. HPB would probably get a good laugh out of this! I think if you check through the books you all can find some reference to her having a severe horseback riding accident when she was a young woman that left her in a position wherein (from there) intimate relations where sadly just too painful to participate in (as well as a couple of health concerns for which, from time to time she self medicated) AND wasn't it that high fever/illness that she had as a childe that resulted in her most probably being sterile through never truly finding out since the act of love making ripped her up a bit. Sincerely, T From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Dec 28 17:57:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 01:57:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 71695 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 01:57:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 01:57:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 01:57:21 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.172] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Dec 2002 01:57:21 -0000 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 01:57:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Esoteric World of Madame Blavatsky Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 690 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Readers interested in knowing more about Madame Blavatsky's life and work may read online what constitutes a biography of her life told in the words of those who knew her. The Esoteric World of Madame Blavatsky: Reminiscences and Impressions by Those Who Knew Her Compiled and edited by Daniel H. Caldwell Read online at: http://www.theosophical.org/theosophy/books/esotericworld/ A revised and EXPANDED edition of this work with more reminiscences is available in print. The print version is illustrated with forty- four photographs and drawings. For more details, see: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/esotericworldam.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From wry1111@earthlink.net Sat Dec 28 18:16:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 02:16:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 70512 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 02:16:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 02:16:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 02:16:46 -0000 Received: from 1cust227.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.227] helo=idapingala) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ST0N-00010c-00; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:16:44 -0800 Message-ID: <000601c2aee0$73f2e240$e3d30b3f@idapingala> To: , "AA-B-Study" References: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB and after her -- some T S history Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:17:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi. Perhaps the kind of very small talk, political arguing, arguing in general, nitpicking, looking back at little inconsequential details from the past and analyzing them etc. is a result of the condition of the theosophy movement at the present time. I have not seen anything quite like the bickering on theosophy lists on any other lists I have been on that are of about this size. Generally speaking, though not always, people can get along and stay pretty focused. I am not saying that this is necessarily true, but perhaps theosophy, as it was originally presented, is no longer time-appropriate. Things have moved very fast in the last hundred plus years. This is worthy of enquiry. I believe if Madame Blavatsky were alive, she would redesign her whole teaching. There is not enough real enquiry on here, though I have seen some. In any case, learning needs to be set up so that it is a constant discovery. In this way there is joy and not authority and dullness. With joyful learning, there is the rapture of a constant opening and a constant dying. We will not have time to worry about immortality. In my opinion this kind of talk of immortality that some have been doing is not only a belief, but it is an oxymoron, as it serves no function. In love, there is a constant dying to the old. When everything is always new, it will be clean again, and many people can be helped. This is my genuine opinion, and I am even afraid to speak this on here, which is sad. This message is not about you and your behavior, necessarily, but I use it to link to, as it has brought again to my mind an interesting question, which I have pondered many, many hours: the time-appropriateness of this particular teaching in the form it is now being presented. Sincerely, Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "AA-B-Study" Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: HPB and after her -- some T S history > Dec 28 2002 > > Dear T: > > As I understand it these lists and "chat-groups" are formed to discuss > the philosophy of theosophy. Occasionally matters of event and > history arise. They are best resolved on documents and the statements > made originally by those concerned. Unfortunately, some correspondents > rely too much on memory, and not on facts that can be checked by any > one concerned. This causes confusion and debate that it quite > unnecessary. > > Much as I dislike going into the "history of the T S," some things are > in plain sight. And while they have nothing to do with the validity > of THEOSOPHY, they are snags that draw attention away from the > PHILOSOPHY. As such they ought to be laid to rest and there let lie. > > We have at least two very good histories that concern H P B (apart > from her own letters), and accounts made by others who lived around > her and were witnesses to various events, the first which I have > personally verified from documentary, primary sources is > > The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875-1950) (300+ pages) & 6.00 > > Sylvia Cranston's biography THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE AND INFLUENCE OF > HELENA BLAVATSKY -- Tarcher/Putnam, New York, 1993 & 30.00 [ > Recently the 9th printing in paper back has been issued, price about > $ 12.00.] > > But, however interesting, they do not seem to teach anything except to > those who already know of the philosophy and of the inner planes of > being and of will force, that are active and visible at times. They > are distractions and obstructions for the average student or > researcher. > > The horse riding accident I recall mention of, as H P B speaks of it > (see p. 30 of Sylvia Cranston's biography THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE AND > INFLUENCE OF HELENA BLAVATSKY -- Tarcher/Putnam, New York, 1993.) By > some "miracle" (Masters' help) she went through it unharmed. The > nature of any wounds then received, I never have seen mentioned or > described. I find that many people try to trivialize important things > by referring to events in the personal life of a teacher or messenger. > And they derive their own fanciful conclusions -- to the future > distraction of readers like you and me, who wonder, and then seek to > verify the facts. > > You will find that sceptics accumulate around every great reformer > AFTER their death, and begin speculating about physical reasons for > their (the reader or pupil's) lack of understanding -- as though such > a deficiency (in their eyes only) was good reason to doubt anything > offered or taught. The two things are not congruent. > > Some, truly inimical, depending on the prevailing like for "gossip," > emphasize, or magnify such events and criticism, as though the dust, > thus blown, will be made to becloud and surround the subject -- and > these imaginings and theories project themselves into the mental > processes of others. Researchers like you and me, desire a clear view > of what was originally done or said. They call attention to small > details, and to "errors" which they say they have found, and set > themselves up as editors and authorities. Are we to believe them > without any checking ? Do they provide adequate references for their > views? > > You will find that most of the "splits" and sectarianism in religious > "belief" (NOT KNOWLEDGE) arises because certain individuals (WHO DO > NOT STUDY THOROUGHLY) accept those authorities; and having done so, > they refuse to do the necessary individual study to verify (or not) > the views divergent from those of the original teacher. "Belief" is > the most dangerous of weapons used against the clear thinking of > individuals. When they accept they become slaves. > > The Theosophical Society (not THEOSOPHY, as a philosophy), right after > H P B's death began to do this. Members began to drift into seperative > ranks of believers of this or that. The attempt at Unity was > gradually destroyed. You can see its dire effects today among those > who call themselves "theosophists." [ No one, except the Masters of > Wisdom, deserve that appellation.] > > Mr. Judge (for whom H P B spoke in the highest terms) was the first > attacked. Thereafter a Man named Leadbeater (in England and at Adyar) > set himself up to make changes and develop Theosophy into several > areas, where it would meet with some approval from those who did not > study, but wanted a cozy nook of belief. > > I say that any one who is familiar with H P B Theosophy will > immediately detect the divergences of Leadbeater "theosophy." But > there were those who though much of it, starting with Annie Besant. > She however, waited till Col. Olcott died in 1907 to bring this into > prominence. > > Mr. Judge and the whole American THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY section was > "excommunicated" by Col. Olcott ( First President T S for LIFE) in > July 1995. Thus the T S in A. sailed its own ship and after Judge > died in March 1996, under various Presidents it developed its own > minor divergent views based on their perception of the original > teachings. > > Emerging from this in 1909, was the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS -- it > rejected all novelty or belief, and emphasized (and still does) a > careful study of the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS of H P B. It pioneered the > reprinting of the original texts books either by a photographic > process, or by verbatim editions in carefully re-set type. It has a > high regard for the Judge writings not just because of H P B's > endorsement, but because of their inherent worth. > > As an association, it has no membership as such. It is sustained by > "associates" -- volunteers who for the past 90 years have supported > it by donations of time, money and work. It places the direct > relationship of the inquirer / student to the Original Teachings of H > P B as the most important part of their learning experience. Each > such associate determines for themselves their own rate of progress. > Each takes entire responsibility for their own decisions. > > In the final analysis, no opinion of any kind is worth the hot air, or > the printing used in publishing it. > > New students have, each, to go through the laborious job of proving > for themselves the value of anything said or written. Only those who > desire, because of impatience (or laziness), a short-cut, and choose > the "authority" of another to rely on, find themselves cornered when > asked for the logic of their choices. They cannot defend themselves. > Reference to original sources strips them of any "hiding place," or > individual on which they can place blame for their own shortcomings. > > Those who have studied, learned and satisfied themselves as to the > real value of THEOSOPHY, point to the original teachings, and are > able to show how Theosophy is a coherent and consecutive statement of > the actual observations made by a band of immortal SPIRITUALLY WISE > SAGES who have participated in the evolution of our Earth and Kosmos, > and who have recorded their observations of the laws (KARMA -- as it > operates everywhere). (S D I 272-3 ) > > There is nothing that increases or diminishes statements except their > own inherent worth. And this has to be individually proved by each > sincere and honest student for themselves. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > =========================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: T > Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 > To: dalval14@earthlink.net > Subject: HPB > > Dear Dallas, > > Wow! What an interesting conversation folks are > having on Theos. HPB would probably get a good laugh > out of this! > > I think if you check through the books you all can > find some reference to her having a severe horseback > riding accident when she was a young woman that left > her in a position wherein (from there) intimate > relations where sadly just too painful to participate > in (as well as a couple of health concerns for which, > from time to time she self medicated) AND wasn't it > that high fever/illness that she had as a childe that > resulted in her most probably being sterile through > never truly finding out since the act of love making > ripped her up a bit. > > Sincerely, > T > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Dec 28 21:39:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 05:39:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 4776 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 05:39:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 05:39:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d10.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.42) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 05:39:58 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.7b.5c81a9b (3842) for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:39:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7b.5c81a9b.2b3fe4a9@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:39:53 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 The alternate "Moses" was probably the Egyptian Pharaoh TutMoses I, II, or III -- Mose, Moses or Mosis, means "born of God." Prefixed by Tut or Thut, it means "born of the God Thoth." Moses or Mosis was a common name among the Pharaoh's families in ancient Egypt. According to one account, before Moses ran away from the kingdom, supposedly after killing one of his grandfather's guards -- as a Prince of Egypt, he was in line to possibly become the Pharaoh. "So Moses was born about 1525 B.C., and the daughter of the reigning Pharaoh (Tutmoses I) who found him in the Nile was princess Nefure, who later became known as Queen Hatshepsut, Pharaoh of Egypt." (See "The Hidden Moses at: http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/moses.htm -- for biblical Chronology) In a message dated 12/28/02 3:01:05 AM, etvionbb@netvision.net.il writes: >I have never heard about two Moses. I don't see any mention about volcanos >in the Bible. >Arabs, or the sons of Ishmael were roaming beduins, nomads, they presumably >migrated from Palestine to Arabia. In the writings of Josefus Flavius there >is a mention about a war between Judea and and an Arab country, maybe 100 >years or so before Christ, maybe a war Herod led against them. They used >to invade and loot. In the Torah they are being mentioned as some kind of free >for all. [Genesis, 16, 12] In Jewish tradition, [much before Arabic invasion >into Palestine], mentioned that the Jews will rule Palestine for 1300 years, >then the Arabs will rule it for 1300 years. This is more or less what did >take place. Jerusalem was sanctified for the Hebrews/Children of Israel, of >whom the Jews are remnants, because Lord Abraham was about to sacrifice >his >son Issac to God. The place of the sacrifice was on the Temple Mountain, >were Solomon's Temple was built. Etzion >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 6:08 PM >Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines > > >> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, samblo@c... wrote: >> > One of the Biblical problems is >> > "collapsed time" in >> > rendition of history and chronological timelines. >> >> Yes, the exodus story includes the stories of two different legendary >> heroes, both of whom are presumed to have been named "Moses." >> Scholars derive this from the fact that the writer mentions volcanoes >> in the Sinai desert, whereas we know therenever have been volcanoes >> there. It therefore appears that the fellow who worshipped volcanoes >> was a different person from the one who led the Hebrews out if Egypt, >> and probably lived far to the north, where there is eviddence of >> volcanic activity in ancient times. >> >> If the Hyksos did as >> > he said then >> > neither the Hebrew or the Palistinians have original claim to >> Jerusalem >> >> I do not believe the Arabs invaded Palestine until the seventh >> century AD if memory serves me correctly, so they should not claim >> any historical priority. I think their claim is that they have lived >> there for 1200 years or so and that there is no reason why they >> should be expelled. >> From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Dec 28 22:19:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 06:19:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 7826 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 06:19:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 06:19:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 06:19:53 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.67.5c71be2 (3842) for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 01:19:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <67.5c71be2.2b3fee03@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 01:19:47 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re BAG's speculations about HPB and ... ? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Haven't you guys already figured out where BAG is coming from? Theosophical metaphysics and its denial of a personal (Male) God/creator -- especially, coming from a real women -- could stick in this ones craw like a burning coal. Remember how Hindus and Catholics treat their women? I'll bet Freud, Adler, Jung, Maslow and even Skinner would have loved to speculate on this package of goods.:-) BTW, did anyone ever wonder why we had so much trouble figuring out what ax Brian/Bridgitte had to grind, who he/she was, and where all that HPB & theosophy animosity was coming from? LHM In a message dated 12/28/02 4:46:49 AM, micforster@yahoo.com writes: > >--- Mauri wrote: >> Why stop there, BAG? What are you really trying to >> tell us? >> What's next? >> >> Speculatively, >> Mauri >> > > >Mauri, >Might we be entering Freud territory now? > >Speculatively, >Mic From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Dec 29 01:16:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 09:16:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 29764 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 09:16:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 09:16:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 09:16:29 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.f3.2624d5c2 (4418) for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:16:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:16:26 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World: "root races" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Maybe you ought to ask the one who wrote all about it in the first place. Best way I can see to do that is to study the writings of HPB (and I mean really "study" them) -- since, all the reasons for giving out all those previously occult, metaphysical truths was made perfectly clear by her. In any case, whatever "practical application" for the "spiritual development" of any particular "human beings" such knowledge might have should be left entirely for them to decide for themselves. If you can't see it for yourself, that's your problem. And, to think it is "useless" and "serves no function" is just an unfounded opinion based on your ignorance of the purpose for attaining ALL metaphysical knowledge that some people might have who wish to eventually arrive at godlike, divine or "spiritual wisdom" (theosophy)... So as to be better able to help and teach others who might wish to reach the same goal of spiritual enlightenment and divine wisdom by this Gnana Yoga path. Since most of us on this path also practice Raja Yoga, as taught by Patanjali in his Yoga Aphorisms -- one of the best tools for "meditating with a seed," is to use any one of the Cosmogenesis or Anthropogenesis metaphysical involutional or evolutional progressions taught by HPB. One of them is evolution of Rounds and Races, another is involution of coadunate but not consubstantial fields of consciousness, another is . . . etc., etc. (Go study!) To be at one with spirit, is to be at one with creativity, and that requires holistically intuitive metaphysical knowledge. Therefore, "Spiritual development" can never be complete without such knowledge and its practical application. Besides, some of us, might also be on the shamanic path for purposes of healing (oneself and others) -- on ALL levels of consciousness. Thus, the knowledge of ALL sentient being's (and this includes all the individual cellular organisms and organs or "lives" in the human body) 4-fold genetic coding and 7-stage evolutionary processes is an invaluable aid. Remember, all the teachings of theosophy are understood by analogy and correspondence... As above, so below. Thus, the concept of Rounds and Races is a fundamental necessity for understanding these physical mechanisms -- not to mention how the astral body, mind and spirit interfaces with them. Therefore, ALL the metaphysical teachings are meant to be seen as a whole, and are necessary for deep study and meditation -- in order to fully awaken and train (or entrain) one's higher intuition in conjunction with one's mind and will. For some background on this you might read William Q. Judge's Culture of Consciousness, and other related articles. http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/books/wqj-all/j-arts.htm Of course, if you have a better path for us gnana/rajah yogi and shaman students of HPB, why don't you tell us about it. :-) LHM In a message dated 12/28/02 5:06:03 AM, wry1111@earthlink.net writes: >Hi. I am still waiting for an answer to the question, below. I have often >wondered about this. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "wry" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 7:12 PM >Subject: Theos-World Candy Cane and also "root races" > > >> >> Regarding the "root races," what possible FUNCTION can this concept >provide, >> whatever it refers to? It is an oxymoron, as it useless, as far as I >can >> see, and serves no function in the application of any kind of practical >> metaphysics (spiritual development of human beings.) If you can think >of >an >> answer to this question, I would be most interested in hearing it, and >am >> prepared to enquire into this further, with an open heart and mind. > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bart Lidofsky" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 5:59 PM >> Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines >> >> >> > "Steve Stubbs " wrote: >> > > >> > > > There are no "sub-races" alive that are inferior to the Aryans. >> > > >> > > I don't disagree with what you are saying from the absolute >> > > standpoint, but I wonder if this is an accurate interpretation of >> > > speifically Blavatsky. >> > >> > The sub-races are sub-races of the Aryan race, not races in and of >> > themselves. And they do not refer to what is commonly called "races", >> > which, of course, has turned out to be a purely superficial designation. >> > The terms "root race" and "sub race" were an invention of Sinnett for >> > things for which there were no terms in English, and there has been >an >> > unfortunate confusion with what is commonly called "races" ever since. >> > >> > > First >> > > > of all, ALL human beings alive today are Aryans. >> > > >> > > Doesn't "Aryan" mean you are descended from the people who spoke >the >> > > Indo-European language in ancient times and invaded India and >> > > Europe? English is an "Aryan" language, whereas Henbrew is Semitic. >> > > There are in addition the Turanian, Akkadian, etc. If you are >> > > arguing that long intermarriage has mooted the whole question of >race >> > > you are probably correct. >> > >> > "Aryan" is Sanskrit for "noble". A group of conquerers in India took >on >> > the TITLE of Aryans, and a bunch of linguist/anthropologists in the >> > early 19th centuries posited that similarities in language implied >> > similarities in ancestry. Blavatsky's use of the term Aryan was as >I >> > described: naming the race after the earliest primary civilization. >> > >> > Bart >> > From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Dec 29 02:43:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 10:43:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 34215 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 10:43:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 10:43:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 10:43:13 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.174.144a1961 (4418) for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 05:43:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <174.144a1961.2b402bbb@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 05:43:07 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World re BAG, Dallas, logic, "sense making," etc To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 12/28/02 2:41:13 PM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: > > > Those who have a strongish preference for "studied" or >"unstudied verbosity" (the latter as per whoever that was who >used that description recently on Theos Talk) might be better off > not trying to decipher my "intended meaning," in general. > This post being, I suspect, a case in point. > >Dallas wrote: <and common sense, not speculate on anything which we are not >directly cognizant of. There has to be honesty and sincerity, and >rigorous logic.>> > >But if we tend to over confine "our study to observation and >common sense" in terms of "rigorous logic," as if that kind of >approach toward defining reality/truth had a p/Primary >importance in our lives, (ie, as if "p/Primary importance" could >be fully dualicized, conventionalized, exoterized, scientized in >keeping with [nothing but?] various or "certain" "logical initial >assumptions"?), then where could one be going with that kind of >general approach if it's extended even to one's "Theosophic >studies"? Of course if that kind of wording is interpreted just >with simple logic, (or just with the likes of "studied" or >"unstudied verbosity"?) well ... > > That is, while "rigorous logic" may have many >mainstream/exoteric, very apparently, or real enough useful roles >in our lives, (ie, "proving" and "disproving" this and that as per >whatever initial assumptions one might adopt, or tend to adopt, >from time to time), I suspect that part of "the study of >Theosophy" might include the cultivation of, say, "a broader >perspective," whereby one at least tries not to completely attach >one's allegiance, motivation, scientizing, modeling, thinking, >speculation, etc, to dualistic initial assumptions or too >one-sidedly dualistic worldviews too exclusively, but that one >might also at least try to keep in mind one's sense of (at whatever >interpretive level ...?) what might be decribed, in Theosophic >terms (?), as the "voice of the silence" (as per HPB's book by >that title?), by which "voice" I'm referring to that "higher sense" >that isn't limited ("ideally," in a sense?) to any speculations, >thoughts, or "belief structures" that are seen as based on any >mainstream, dualistic, exoteric, apparent particulars or >worldviews or essentially dualistic initial assumptions. > >In other words, as I see it, karma can (and does?) place so many >apparent inconsistencies in one's p/Path, often enough, so that an >over emphasis on "rigorous logic," as I see it, makes for a fools >path, in a sense, in that, (as we all know?), "logic" in this >dualistic world is limited to (as HPB might've pointed out?) the >kind of reality making that, as a dog chasing its own tail might >find out, has no "end" or intrinsic reality aside from it's dualistic, >mayavic, karmic, temporary appearance. > >Speculatively, >Mauri > >PS Sorry about the long sentences. I started off thinking about >responding to BAG's response to me with something like >"Really?" and that's all. And maybe that might've been just as >relevant, in this and most cases, as more of my "unstudied >verbosity" (as per whoever that was). But, seeing as this is >(apparently?) a Theosophy list ... You can say that again... And, I still wouldn't understand what you are driving at. Dallas was talking about the teachings of theosophy, and about testing them with rigorous logic. I wonder what you are talking about -- "seeing as this is ((obviously)) a theosophy list." There is no such thing as "speculative theosophy." It either is or it isn't. If it isn't, prove it with rigorous logic -- or get off the potty. LHM From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 29 04:24:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 12:24:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 61311 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 12:24:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 12:24:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 12:24:19 -0000 Received: from pool0014.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.14] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ScUI-0003C2-00; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:24:14 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: HPB and after her -- some T S history Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:19:49 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000601c2aee0$73f2e240$e3d30b3f@idapingala> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 29 2002 Dear Wry: On what basis would the philosophy of theosophy (which is a history of our evolutionary progress) be redesigned? I don't get it Why would tinkering be needed? Most students haven't read or studied THEOSOPHY as they ought to. So discussions of that nature ought to be set aside until there is real knowledge to use and discuss with. Best wishes, Dallas ============= -----Original Message----- From: wry [mailto:wry1111@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 6:18 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; AA-B-Study Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB and after her -- some T S history Hi. Perhaps the kind of very small talk, political arguing, arguing in general, nitpicking, looking back at little inconsequential details from the past and analyzing them etc. is a result of the condition of the theosophy movement at the present time. I have not seen anything quite like the bickering on theosophy lists on any other lists I have been on that are of about this size. Generally speaking, though not always, people can get along and stay pretty focused. I am not saying that this is necessarily true, but perhaps theosophy, as it was originally presented, is no longer time-appropriate. Things have moved very fast in the last hundred plus years. This is worthy of enquiry. I believe if Madame Blavatsky were alive, she would redesign her whole teaching. There is not enough real enquiry on here, though I have seen some. In any case, learning needs to be set up so that it is a constant discovery. In this way there is joy and not authority and dullness. With joyful learning, there is the rapture of a constant opening and a constant dying. We will not have time to worry about immortality. In my opinion this kind of talk of immortality that some have been doing is not only a belief, but it is an oxymoron, as it serves no function. In love, there is a constant dying to the old. When everything is always new, it will be clean again, and many people can be helped. This is my genuine opinion, and I am even afraid to speak this on here, which is sad. This message is not about you and your behavior, necessarily, but I use it to link to, as it has brought again to my mind an interesting question, which I have pondered many, many hours: the time-appropriateness of this particular teaching in the form it is now being presented. Sincerely, Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "AA-B-Study" Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: HPB and after her -- some T S history > Dec 28 2002 > > Dear T: > > As I understand it these lists and "chat-groups" are formed to discuss > the philosophy of theosophy. Occasionally matters of event and > history arise. They are best resolved on documents and the statements > made originally by those concerned. Unfortunately, some correspondents > rely too much on memory, and not on facts that can be checked by any > one concerned. This causes confusion and debate that it quite > unnecessary. > > Much as I dislike going into the "history of the T S," some things are > in plain sight. And while they have nothing to do with the validity > of THEOSOPHY, they are snags that draw attention away from the > PHILOSOPHY. As such they ought to be laid to rest and there let lie. > > We have at least two very good histories that concern H P B (apart > from her own letters), and accounts made by others who lived around > her and were witnesses to various events, the first which I have > personally verified from documentary, primary sources is > > The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875-1950) (300+ pages) & 6.00 > > Sylvia Cranston's biography THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE AND INFLUENCE OF > HELENA BLAVATSKY -- Tarcher/Putnam, New York, 1993 & 30.00 [ > Recently the 9th printing in paper back has been issued, price about > $ 12.00.] > > But, however interesting, they do not seem to teach anything except to > those who already know of the philosophy and of the inner planes of > being and of will force, that are active and visible at times. They > are distractions and obstructions for the average student or > researcher. > > The horse riding accident I recall mention of, as H P B speaks of it > (see p. 30 of Sylvia Cranston's biography THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE AND > INFLUENCE OF HELENA BLAVATSKY -- Tarcher/Putnam, New York, 1993.) By > some "miracle" (Masters' help) she went through it unharmed. The > nature of any wounds then received, I never have seen mentioned or > described. I find that many people try to trivialize important things > by referring to events in the personal life of a teacher or messenger. > And they derive their own fanciful conclusions -- to the future > distraction of readers like you and me, who wonder, and then seek to > verify the facts. > > You will find that sceptics accumulate around every great reformer > AFTER their death, and begin speculating about physical reasons for > their (the reader or pupil's) lack of understanding -- as though such > a deficiency (in their eyes only) was good reason to doubt anything > offered or taught. The two things are not congruent. > > Some, truly inimical, depending on the prevailing like for "gossip," > emphasize, or magnify such events and criticism, as though the dust, > thus blown, will be made to becloud and surround the subject -- and > these imaginings and theories project themselves into the mental > processes of others. Researchers like you and me, desire a clear view > of what was originally done or said. They call attention to small > details, and to "errors" which they say they have found, and set > themselves up as editors and authorities. Are we to believe them > without any checking ? Do they provide adequate references for their > views? > > You will find that most of the "splits" and sectarianism in religious > "belief" (NOT KNOWLEDGE) arises because certain individuals (WHO DO > NOT STUDY THOROUGHLY) accept those authorities; and having done so, > they refuse to do the necessary individual study to verify (or not) > the views divergent from those of the original teacher. "Belief" is > the most dangerous of weapons used against the clear thinking of > individuals. When they accept they become slaves. > > The Theosophical Society (not THEOSOPHY, as a philosophy), right after > H P B's death began to do this. Members began to drift into seperative > ranks of believers of this or that. The attempt at Unity was > gradually destroyed. You can see its dire effects today among those > who call themselves "theosophists." [ No one, except the Masters of > Wisdom, deserve that appellation.] > > Mr. Judge (for whom H P B spoke in the highest terms) was the first > attacked. Thereafter a Man named Leadbeater (in England and at Adyar) > set himself up to make changes and develop Theosophy into several > areas, where it would meet with some approval from those who did not > study, but wanted a cozy nook of belief. > > I say that any one who is familiar with H P B Theosophy will > immediately detect the divergences of Leadbeater "theosophy." But > there were those who though much of it, starting with Annie Besant. > She however, waited till Col. Olcott died in 1907 to bring this into > prominence. > > Mr. Judge and the whole American THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY section was > "excommunicated" by Col. Olcott ( First President T S for LIFE) in > July 1995. Thus the T S in A. sailed its own ship and after Judge > died in March 1996, under various Presidents it developed its own > minor divergent views based on their perception of the original > teachings. > > Emerging from this in 1909, was the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS -- it > rejected all novelty or belief, and emphasized (and still does) a > careful study of the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS of H P B. It pioneered the > reprinting of the original texts books either by a photographic > process, or by verbatim editions in carefully re-set type. It has a > high regard for the Judge writings not just because of H P B's > endorsement, but because of their inherent worth. > > As an association, it has no membership as such. It is sustained by > "associates" -- volunteers who for the past 90 years have supported > it by donations of time, money and work. It places the direct > relationship of the inquirer / student to the Original Teachings of H > P B as the most important part of their learning experience. Each > such associate determines for themselves their own rate of progress. > Each takes entire responsibility for their own decisions. > > In the final analysis, no opinion of any kind is worth the hot air, or > the printing used in publishing it. > > New students have, each, to go through the laborious job of proving > for themselves the value of anything said or written. Only those who > desire, because of impatience (or laziness), a short-cut, and choose > the "authority" of another to rely on, find themselves cornered when > asked for the logic of their choices. They cannot defend themselves. > Reference to original sources strips them of any "hiding place," or > individual on which they can place blame for their own shortcomings. > > Those who have studied, learned and satisfied themselves as to the > real value of THEOSOPHY, point to the original teachings, and are > able to show how Theosophy is a coherent and consecutive statement of > the actual observations made by a band of immortal SPIRITUALLY WISE > SAGES who have participated in the evolution of our Earth and Kosmos, > and who have recorded their observations of the laws (KARMA -- as it > operates everywhere). (S D I 272-3 ) > > There is nothing that increases or diminishes statements except their > own inherent worth. And this has to be individually proved by each > sincere and honest student for themselves. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > =========================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: T > Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 > To: dalval14@earthlink.net > Subject: HPB > > Dear Dallas, > > Wow! What an interesting conversation folks are > having on Theos. HPB would probably get a good laugh > out of this! > > I think if you check through the books you all can > find some reference to her having a severe horseback > riding accident when she was a young woman that left > her in a position wherein (from there) intimate > relations where sadly just too painful to participate > in (as well as a couple of health concerns for which, > from time to time she self medicated) AND wasn't it > that high fever/illness that she had as a childe that > resulted in her most probably being sterile through > never truly finding out since the act of love making > ripped her up a bit. > > Sincerely, > T > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 29 04:24:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 12:24:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 4680 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 12:24:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 12:24:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 12:24:25 -0000 Received: from pool0014.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.14] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ScUR-0003C2-00; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:24:23 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: : H P B and Theosophical Philosophy Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:20:09 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20021228224102.73587.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 29 2002 Dear Mic: The only way I know of checking into the antiquity claims of THEOSOPHY -- that it is a History -- and a RECORD of the workings of nature for millennia is to ask you to read through ISIS UNVEILED and the SECRET DOCTRINE -- something I did early in life, because I had found nothing else, either in religions or in sciences that gave them a dove-tail fit. [ see in S D Vol. I pp. 267 top "Theosophy teaches history..." and pp. 272-3 a review of the work of the Great Lodge in preserving and teaching the arts and sciences. -- there are more references in the book -- a good INDEX is a great help to use in drawing together scattered information. ] It was obvious to me that Nature, as a whole, supported and took care of far more than the mere superficial details of physical living. But that this asking a lot. If, in the S D you look up SECRET DOCTRINE I 424-445 there is a remarkable review of theogonical development in ancient times. Our science is about 3 to 400 years old -- thanks to invasions and ransacking of libraries in the past 2 to 3000 years our available artifacts are scarce and the past is a riddle. To a great extent the HISTORY of THEOSOPHY fill those. But one has to put the jig-saw pieces together. I've been at it for over 60 years, and find that I really know very little. But what seems reasonable, I share. I try to keep my opinions to a minimum, and let Theosophy do the answering. Incidentally the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) gives a sound basic overview of the philosophy. The SECRET DOCTRINE gives the historical side. Best wishes, Dallas ========================== -----Original Message----- From: Mic F Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 2:41 PM To: Subject: RE: H P B and Theosophical Philosophy Dear Dallas, Thank you very much for the below passage. WQJ showed a lot of clarity in that article. However, I still remain a little sceptical. The basis of Theosophy, as I interpreted it, is the commonness between all religions and modes of thought that have been passed down throughout the ages. Assuming that this is correct, how do we know that the knowledge passed down through the ages is not just some human psychological condition to explain the unknown? Just as all humans have sense and perception limitations that can lead to illusions, could not we also have some thinking limitation that blinds us and leads all to the same conclusion? Up to about 2 years ago I considered religion as the invention of the elite to conserve their lot. Perhaps my experience with Christianity up to that point in time led to that conclusion. But can you see where I am coming from? How do we truly know that we are not merely deluding ourselves with a delusion that is ageless as man himself? Regards, Mic From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 29 04:24:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 12:24:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 89647 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 12:24:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 12:24:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 12:24:34 -0000 Received: from pool0014.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.14] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ScUa-0003C2-00; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:24:32 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Re to Mauri - Logic Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 04:20:14 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 29 2002 Dear Friends: As far as I can understand, I would say: Manas serves as an interpreter. The ONE CONSCIOUSNESS pierces up and down the several planes of BEING and serves to record the MEMORY of experiences there. It dreams, it has visions, it thinks, it is moved by desire or passion, and it is able to be impartial and universal in its approach and study. The important thing is (to me): "WHO ARE WE WHO DIRECT IT ?" How do we set the patterns and criteria, and ask questions? also, Why do we do that ? Without that unity and continuity, whether we call it MANAS or anything else, our own coherency and experiences on "other planes," could not be expressible or cognizable to the physical brain mechanism we are forced to use when awake in the here and now. But, why are we so constrained? Are there areas where there is greater freedom? How do we approach them? What plan or map can we use to travel there? H P B says explicitly when she is writing, when something is being made exoteric. There are great funds of actions and works going on all the time in nature -- and if we don't know about them they are "esoteric" to us. Even the circulation of the blood and the nerve action that controls our muscles, etc... are virtually unknown to us. How does the "Will to act" originating in the "immaterial mind" tell the physical brain what to do in its work of controlling the physical body? Labeling makes no difference to facts. To observe the results of experiments is a scientist's task. Any one can use their techniques. The student is invited by Theosophy to do this on himself, and in himself. Study the way in which we set ourselves tasks -- it will prove interesting. Logic is a tool developed in and by the Mind. Its value depends on sincerity and honesty. It makes no claims other than to lead any one from premises to conclusions. If faulty premises are used, then faulty conclusions are reached. A pure, clear base is always essential. Our "imagination" is another tool as it is able to set up in advance the parameters of our search or actions. How do we use it? How doe we build or tear down the mind constructions we frame? Where, then do we start? Best wishes, Dallas ======================== -----Original Message----- From: gschueler Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 1:09 PM To: Subject: - Logic <<> >>> What Dallas is really saying here is that without experiential knowledge, without direct spiritual experience, we have to rely on manas. While this is true, a more meaningful answer would be that we need to gain direct spiritual experience. Manas will get us intellectual conceptualizations, not spiritual experiences. <<>> One would be going to make intellectual hay (confetti?) out of Blavatsky's writings which are all exoteric in the first place. <<< That is, while "rigorous logic" may have many mainstream/exoteric, very apparently, or real enough useful roles in our lives, (ie, "proving" and "disproving" this and that as per whatever initial assumptions one might adopt, or tend to adopt, from time to time), I suspect that part of "the study of Theosophy" might include the cultivation of, say, "a broader perspective," >>>> Exactly. First of all, logic, rigorous or otherwise, is only as good as one's initial assumptions. Second, experiential knowledge is not necessarily logical. Third, no amount of logic will ever "prove" anything at all. Proof, in context of society, is nothng more than mutual consent, and in context with oneself is nothing more than a temporary acceptance that one's experiences can be explained by one's worldview. There is not one single Theosophical teaching that can be "proved" to everyone's satisfaction. <<>> Well said, Mauri. It is only when one experiences nonduality and a karmaless condition that the real limits and false appearances of karma can be known, and one can stop chasing after something that already exists within us. Nonduality or Beness is ineffable and cannot ever be understood by manas. So, if we want to use logic, then logically we should meditate and transcend manas altogether so that we can experience spirituality directly and see for ourselves what is really going on. Jerry S. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sun Dec 29 04:49:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 12:49:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 92932 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 12:49:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 12:49:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 12:49:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Dec 2002 12:49:34 -0000 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:49:32 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World re BAG's speculations about HPB and ... ? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <67.5c71be2.2b3fee03@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6660 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.133 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn Dear Mr. Leon Maurer, Your apparent hostility towards me seems to be based on some erroneous assumptions that you have made. Here are the facts. I spent the first 20 years of my life living among real girls and women as a real girl and woman. I know vastly more about what it is like to be treated as a girl or woman than you ever will in this life. During and after virilizing I maintained my close relationships with girls and women, refusing to renounce those relationships to fit into ANY kind of sexist male society, or 'Hindu' or 'Christian' religious hierarchy. As an advocate for women's and minorities' rights, I fought the disempowerment and oppression of girls and women in every way that I could...and by the way, intersex C-AIS XY women are "REAL" women too ! I have known hundreds of intersexed WOMEN, and these are all REAL PEOPLE /REAL WOMEN. So what is your point about HPB being a "real women" ? Your statement sounds sexist to me ! I doubt if you know much about what makes a person a woman. You should read the Topical Index to my 2001 study on sex differentiation, so that you can appreciate what a REAL woman is, from the objective scientific and gender identity (neuroendocrinological) point of view. As for my background and how I treat women... I was very close to my own dear mother who passed away in 2001. In fact I took care of her on her death bed. She and Dad were together for 64 years. She was a remarkably virtuous, intelligent and talented women that my non-sexist father adored in every way. I have been faithful to the one romantic love of my life, a REAL WOMAN, for over 40 years. Both my brothers have strong long-lasting marriages of EQUALITY with their wives. My son and Daughter are not sexist, and my 7 grand daughters are not restricted in any way by sexism in our family. I have very close relationships with my Catholic and Vaishnava god-sisters, and as a celibate sannyasi in a traditional male religious order, I am happy to say that I am even loved, respected and trusted by radical feminist and lesbian Vaishnavis and Devi (Shakti) worshipers. In fact a Vaishnava lesbian activist is currently planning a videotape series on religion, women and sexual minorities, that she wants me to make the major historical research and medical /scientific contribution to. I have cared nothing for my personal religious hierarchical position or reputation as regards the sexism in some forms of Hinduism and Christianity, and have boldly publicly battled both secular and religiously-based sexism and its worst expressions in sex-selection abortion, female 'circumcision', domestic violence, local forms of sexual exploitation of girls and women, the international traffic in sex slaves, Muslim, Machismo and all other forms of religiously and/or legally sanctioned sexism and abuse of girls and women. I have purposely and publicly violated the fanatical Hindu rules against sannyasis associating with, speaking to, and touching women. I have purposely hugged my godsisters and female friends and relatives in public. Those who hate this about me say that I must still be a women inside, even though my body changed, and I am now medically and legally male. Thus the sexists try to invalidate my entire adult life lived as a man, because I refuse to treat those in female bodies any differently than I treat those in male bodies. I am a physically affectionate and very informal person. My principal 'rasa' or flavor of loving devotion is SAKHYA or SAKHI RASA, or equality in friendship. Therefore I am very playful and informal with persons of all ages and sexes. I refuse to treat girls and women according to fanatical Hindu social conventions that forbid chaste displays of affection between a sannyasi and persons of the opposite sex. Some of my critics say 'well s/he is an hermaphrodite, so what is the opposite sex of an hermaphrodite ? ' Attack me as a male sexist if you want. It is quite refreshing and laughable to me. Daily I get accused by some fool somewhere of being a Tantric Shakti cultist ! I am NOT a Left-Hand Tantrist. I am a SATTVIC devotee of Rhoda /Radha-Shakti, and an expert on the world history of the worship of The Feminine Divine. I am used to getting accused of being a feminist, a lesbian, a Trojan-horse bearded-woman in sannyasi saffron with an agenda to destroy thousands of years of Hindu male privilege, and other nutty things. However, this is the first time anyone has ever accused me of being a male sexist and identified me with the abuse of women ! You have managed to do something never done before ! Congratulations ! Your powers of baseless speculation are truly amazing. If really confused and sexist persons like Freud are your authorities, no wonder you are personally so confused. In any event, instead of remaining confused, it would be good for you to actually learn something about someone next time before you publicly claim to have figured out where they are coming from. wishing you the humility to actually learn about someone before damning them, your well-wisher Bhakti Ananda Goswami (whose home Temple 'Altar' is graced by an Icon of Rhoda / Radha, and whose life is full of much-loved, very REAL, FREE, and HONORED girls and women.) PS Your speculations about "Brian/Bridgitte" are probably no more reality-based than your nonsense speculations about me. Stick to what you know, and stop presenting yourself as having "figured out" two people you apparently know nothing about. Message 10034 From: leonmaurer@a... Date: Sat Dec 28, 2002 10:19 pm Subject: Re: Theos-World re BAG's speculations about HPB and ... ? Haven't you guys already figured out where BAG is coming from? Theosophical metaphysics and its denial of a personal (Male) God/creator -- especially, coming from a real women -- could stick in this ones craw like a burning coal. Remember how Hindus and Catholics treat their women? I'll bet Freud, Adler, Jung, Maslow and even Skinner would have loved to speculate on this package of goods.:-) BTW, did anyone ever wonder why we had so much trouble figuring out what ax Brian/Bridgitte had to grind, who he/she was, and where all that HPB & theosophy animosity was coming from? LHM In a message dated 12/28/02 4:46:49 AM, micforster@y... writes: > >--- Mauri wrote: >> Why stop there, BAG? What are you really trying to >> tell us? >> What's next? >> >> Speculatively, >> Mauri >> > > >Mauri, >Might we be entering Freud territory now? > >Speculatively, >Mic From dhyana@web.de Sun Dec 29 05:15:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 13:15:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 55836 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 13:15:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 13:15:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 13:15:42 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gBTDFb114091 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:15:37 +0100 Received: from captain28u015g (cppp-240.blinx.de [62.96.222.240]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gBTDFZF14053 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:15:35 +0100 Message-ID: <002e01c2af3c$73bd7590$0100007f@captain28u015g> To: References: <3E0A6276.4E3F6170@sprynet.com> <000901c2ac8c$ac4b2540$efd30b3f@idapingala> <009101c2ae50$688d42a0$fbd30b3f@idapingala> <01fe01c2ae95$0c247070$0100007f@captain28u015g> <3E0DDED8.82EBF3D1@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World: "root races" Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:14:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.240 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Bart: Because there are two paths of evolution; physical and spiritual. Physical is discontinuous, and spiritual is continuous. Although everybody has 5th root race bodies, not everybody is using the yet-not-fully-developed buddhi manas (higher mind), spending most of the time using the fully developed kama manas (emotion/desire driven mind). Frank: Hooray, I fully agree with you now. It is the consciousness which differs from race to race. HPB's axiom in Isis Unveiled. So HPB when using the word race points not so much to the physical development, but rather to that of the inner constitution - buddhi-manas. That is the fifth principle (or source) in man and is therefore to be devolped by the fifth race, the Aryans. The 4th principle in man, kama-manas, was developed by the fourth race, the Atlanteans. From zackl@sprynet.com Sun Dec 29 05:46:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: zackl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 13:46:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 63572 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 13:46:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 13:46:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mclean.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.57) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 13:46:33 -0000 Received: from sdn-ap-016masprip0103.dialsprint.net ([63.186.224.103] helo=zackl) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Sdlv-0000qq-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 08:46:32 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01c2af41$3c89e400$67e0ba3f@zackl> To: References: <1041106832.1675.54813.m6@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Conference Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 08:49:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Zack Lansdowne" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=9748772 X-Yahoo-Profile: zflansdowne Louis asked: > Where and when will you be giving your talk? > The conference on "Science and the Soul" will be held between April 2-6, 2003 in Mesa, Arizona. For more details, please visit the conference website, www.sevenray.com. This conference is not sponsored by any theosophical society (there are at least four independent theosophical societies in the US), but in my view it is part of the greater theosophical movement. In my opinion, the "theosophical movement" is much larger than the "theosophical society." I would include as part of the theosophical movement: people who were once part of a theosophical society but who later left that organization to found their own societies; people who are students of those who left a theosophical society; and people who have been influenced by theosophical ideas but may never have been formally a member of a theosophical society. So, for example, I would include Rudolf Steiner, Alice Bailey, Krishnamurti, Roberto Assagioli, and Tokom Saradarian, plus their organizations as part of the greater theosophical movement. With this perspective, the various theosophical societies have had a much greater impact upon human consciousness than would be indicated by their present small sizes. The way I think of it is that Blavatsky's impact upon the world is like a stone thrown in the ocean; the initial ripple represents her theosophical society, but the subsequent ripples represent the much larger theosophical movement. I know that many people in this forum are concerned with the fact that Blavatsky's doctrines differ in many details from the doctrines of Besant, Leadbeater, Wood, Bailey, Steiner, Krishnamurti, Assagioli, Saradarian, etc. Blavatsky, In the Key to Theosophy, said that "Theosophy is synonymous with Everlasting Truth." If we consider Blavatsky's doctrines to be Theosophy itself, it follows that any doctrine that deviates from Blavatsky's doctrines must be wrong. This perspective explains the so-called "Back to Blavatsky" movement, the antagonism that certain theosophical societies have for more modern writers, and why the label "pseudo-theosophy" is sometimes used to characterize more modern writings. It is my understanding, however, that Theosophy itself is ineffable. Any book, or written doctrine, consists of limiting words that are somewhat ambiguous, with associations that change over time, and so it cannot actually contain Everlasting Truth. If Theosophy itself, or Everlasting Truth, is ineffable, then any written doctrine must be incomplete, perhaps an approximation of the truth, but not the truth itself. Consider the following analogy. We might think of a great underground river as representing Theosophy. Various wells are built to extract water from this underground river. These wells represent Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Theosophical Society, and other philosophies and religions. All these wells get their water from the same source; but a bucket in each well is like a written doctrine, because it contains only a limited part, or fragment, of the water, not the entire underground river. Both western and eastern philosophy have the notion that no written doctrine can contain reliable truth. For example, about 24 hundred years ago, Plato stated in the Phaedrus, "Anyone who leaves behind him a written manual, and likewise anyone who takes it over from him, on the supposition that such writing will provide something reliable and permanent, must be exceedingly simple-minded." A similar notion can be found in the Diamond Sutra, of Mahayana Buddhism, which states: "The truth is ungraspable and inexpressible." The notion that Theosophy itself cannot be expressed in words is a very practical idea for several reasons. First, we can understand how different philosophies and religions can share the same root of Theosophy and can lead to a common experience of Theosophy, even though they may have different doctrines and rituals. Second, we can use this notion to help liberate ourselves from being attached to our own spiritual teachings. By giving up attachment to our own teachings, we can feel more united with other people, even with those who are involved with other teachings (or other theosophical societies). And third, we can have the possibility of contacting Theosophy itself, which requires going beyond the limitations of words and thoughts. Zack Lansdowne From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Dec 29 06:42:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 14:42:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 56555 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 14:42:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 14:42:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 14:42:46 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-30.look.ca ([216.154.45.125] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18SeeJ-0004H0-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:42:43 +0000 Message-ID: <3E0F0AA9.F46EA7F1@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 09:46:01 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Mic,philosophy,Theosophy,initiatives ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Mic wrote: < the beginning of this year at university I decided to > do some extra subjects and consequently I undertook > philosophy. Well I enjoyed the lectures but after one > tutorial I chucked it in with sheer frustration. Those > guys couldn't make up their minds on anything!!! I don't know about the particulars in that instance, but, as I see it, if a philosophy lecturer doesn't promote any initial assumptions, then, to my way of thinking, that could (or should?) encourage the students to try thinking on their own, to some extent ... If philosophy lectures don't offer that kind of encouragement or opportunity (ie, if the lectures amount to not much more than the promotion of the lecturer's or the schools or a society's views), then what good are they as "more realistic/helpful," basic discourses on general philosophy (or am I going out on a limb here by assuming that some people might want to try exploring some of their own, or at least some of their "more individualistic" philosophic notions ...) ... Shouldn't one try cultivating a sense about one's own latent philosophy, on a "deeper level," somewhere along the line, instead of, in effect, letting oneself be led by what might "seem" to be the most appealing prospects, philosophies, Theosophies, etc ... Or is it that people in general tend to have a certain natural talent for convincing themselves that they ARE thinking for themselves, even though they might have been substantially led by the nose for years and years ... Not that various apparent mainstreams are not powerful influences. Didn't HPB encourage people to think for themselves ... Isn't there an aspect of Theosophy that's about transcending the kind of mainstream influences, as well as duality altogether, that seem most prevalent around here ... Of course (?), in the meanwhile ... whatever ... Speculatively ... Mauri From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Dec 29 07:27:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 15:27:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 67359 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 15:27:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 15:27:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 15:27:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Dec 2002 15:27:27 -0000 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:27:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Madame Blavatsky and the Latter-Day Messengers of the Masters Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 316 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In light of various recent messages posted on Theos-Talk, readers may find the following article of some relevant interest: "Madame Blavatsky and the Latter-Day Messengers of the Masters" http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/contradictionslatermessengers.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Dec 29 07:47:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 15:47:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 54538 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 15:47:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 15:47:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 15:47:34 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.167] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Dec 2002 15:47:34 -0000 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:47:31 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "charlatanesque imitations of Occultism & Theosophy" Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1584 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Even Madame Blavatsky believed there were "charlatanesque imitations of Occultism & Theosophy" during her lifetime. Therefore, are some Theosophical students on Theos-Talk contending that since 1891 there have been no other "charlatanesque imitations" of Theosophy? Here is what HPB wrote in 1889: ". . . A new and rapidly growing danger. . . is threatening . . . the spread of the pure Esoteric Philosophy and knowledge. . . . I allude to those charlatanesque imitations of Occultism and Theosophy. . . . By pandering to the prejudices of people, and especially by adopting the false ideas of a personal God and a personal, carnalized Saviour, as the groundwork of their teaching, the leaders of this 'swindle' (for such it is) are endeavoring to draw men to them and in particular to turn Theosophists from the true path." ". . . A close examination will assuredly reveal. . . materials largely stolen . . . from Theosophical writings. . . [and] distorted and falsified so as to be palmed off on the unwary as revelations of new and undreamed of truths. But many will neither have the time nor the opportunity for such a thorough investigation; and before they become aware of the imposture they may be led far from the Truth. . . . Nothing is more dangerous to Esoteric Truth than the garbled and distorted versions disfigured to suit the prejudices and tastes of men in general." H. P. Blavatsky, E.S. Instruction No. I., 1889. Quoted from: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/hpbes1extract.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Dec 29 08:21:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 16:21:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 94905 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 16:21:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 16:21:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 16:21:22 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.181] by n25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Dec 2002 16:21:22 -0000 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:21:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Do We Have Contradictory and Conflicting Speculation? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 417 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell In regards to what has recently been written about the Stanzas of=20 Dzyan on Theos-Talk, readers may be interested in something I wrote=20 some time ago on the same subject. "Do We Have Contradictory and Conflicting Speculation by M=FChlegger, Stubbs and Johnson?: One Example for Critical=20 Consideration" See: http://blavatskyarchives.com/contradictions.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From mhart@idirect.ca Sun Dec 29 09:24:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 17:24:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 34245 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 17:24:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 17:24:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 17:24:30 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-05-34.look.ca ([216.154.45.225] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18ShAo-0007Nl-00; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:24:27 +0000 Message-ID: <3E0F3095.2CB6EE0D@idirect.ca> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 12:27:49 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Cc: Theosophy Study List Subject: re Leon,BAG,HPB,Masters,potties,initiatives,etc ... but not necessarily in that order ... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.0 required=7.0 tests=ORDER_STATUS,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Leon wrote, in part: << It either is or it isn't. If it isn't, prove it with rigorous logic -- or get off the potty. >> Yes, Leon, comparative realities tend to be (are?) either apparent/real, or not apparent/real, (I tend to agree with you about that), but I've been speculating that some people out there might have some interest in the kind of thought processes that might be seen as associated with preparations to transcend mainstream, mayavic, dualistic, exoteric views ... True, such "preparations," themselves, (no matter what form they may take), are exoteric, but/"but" .... So, what can I say ... Sorry to hear you don't care for my preparations. I've been trying to offer a somewhat broader perspective, as I tend to see it. Not that I have anything against your preparations. Speculatively, Mauri PS I offered another perspective by way of today's: "re Mic, philosophy, Theosophy, initiatives ..." post. PPS What I found remarkable about that post from BAG in which he appears to be discounting, discrediting a "reality" aspect of HPB's Masters is that, even though he has offered much in the way of his apparent spiritual interests, in that post he didn't appear to offer much of anything in the way of positive comments about HPB and her Masters, not even as a counter-balance, apparently. It's as if his compassion and spiritual capacity are highly limited to more conventional, mainstream, exoteric, more popular modes of thought and religiosity. Well, not that that's all that surprising, around here. PPPS I hope I still have your permission to quote from your posts off list, Leon, as long as I credit those quotes to you. From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Dec 29 09:33:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 17:33:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 15395 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 17:33:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 17:33:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.72) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 17:33:52 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.253] by n17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Dec 2002 17:33:52 -0000 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:33:51 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Pseudo-Theosophy of Alice A. Bailey? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1374 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell It has been contended by many students of H.P. Blavatsky that Alice A. Bailey's teachings are "pseudo-Theosophy." See the following two essays: (1) "Theosophy's Shadow: [A Critical Look at the Claims and Teachings of Alice A. Bailey]" by Nicholas Weeks http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm (2) "The Pseudo-Occultism of Mrs. A. Bailey" by Alice Leighton Cleather and Basil Crump http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/HPBvsAB.html For a differing point of view, see the following essays: (3) "Alice A. Bailey, H.P. Blavatsky and Helena Roerich: Cleavages between the followers of three traditions: The Theosophical Society, The Arcane School, The Agni Yoga Society" by Phillip Lindsay http://www.esotericastrologer.org/AABHPBHR.htm See especially: "Refutation of Nicholas Weeks' article 'Theosophy's Shadow'" by Phillip Lindsay http://www.esotericastrologer.org/AABHPBHR.htm#TSNW (4) "H. P. Blavatsky versus Alice A. Bailey" by Morten Sufilight http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/BLAVATSK.HTM As one reads the above essays, one might also take into consideration what is written in an essay titled: "Madame Blavatsky and the Latter-Day Messengers of the Masters" compiled by Terry Hobbes http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/contradictionslatermessengers.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Dec 29 10:45:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 18:45:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 46035 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 18:45:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 18:45:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.70) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 18:45:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.159] by n15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Dec 2002 18:45:25 -0000 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:45:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Alice Bailey Teachings Examined Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 185 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Regarding my previous post on Alice Bailey, see also: "Alice Bailey Teachings Examined" http://www.theosophy.net/hct/hct0104.pdf Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Dec 29 12:35:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 20:35:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 13007 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 20:35:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 20:35:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 20:35:41 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a493ec.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.236]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 67087262FC7 for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:35:40 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000601c2af78$ee0904e0$ec93a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World The Pseudo-Theosophy of Alice A. Bailey? Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:29:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, Thanks for your email Caldwell. And also this link from your website, which certainly is interesting: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/contradictionslatermessengers.htm Here is a short answer - taken from the link (http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/BLAVATSK.HTM) mentioned below by D. Caldwell: "As long as most students can't discriminate between a text from a real Master and a text from a bad fallen disciple - more than they can - the difference between a high mass of the orthodox or a bingo competition - then the content of the books should be, what is important for a student. One should - of course NOT - take the words and writings of every - claimed theosophical channel, claimed theosophical initiate, claimed theosophical overshadowed, or every claimed theosophical contact of the Masters - for - BEING, - what they are saying, just like that - and without any further notice. That would be stupid. The wise theosophists are critical and act critical in a wise manner. And they do like HPB says: we cull the good we find in each. - This is it. But different branches of Theosophy will come into existence that seems hard to avoid in these days. " The above also goes - when referring to - ANY - of the Mahatma letters ! Let us avoid fanatic behavior. The students of today are offered a whole lot of books, spiritual doctrines and teachings. And they most often do like 'painted' below- Quoting: "The teacher offers herself or himself by he's or hers presence. Those who are interested have to offer themselves as students. The actual step - to become a student is difficult to make, even so if the student believes that he or she really want to learn, - because the student has to fight with different kinds of psychological emotional or mental blockages - especially fear, doubt, uncertainty, and ignorance. Said with psychological ulterior motive - the student wants to learn, but doesn't want to give. If the student doesn't want to give the teacher his or hers attention, then the student won't be able to learn. The more down to earth person's minds are these days - in many ways today very unstable and capricious. He or she maybe one day want to dabble into Spiritual Development (for instance a version of Raja-yoga) and esoterical teachings, - and then the next day - going out with friends getting stoned in alcohol - is highest on the agenda. And then after a couple of weeks Spiritual development is an important again - at least a little. And most people in these days have a good deal of build in opposition, which has to be overcome - before the step can be taken wholly and totally. It may be that the Seeker has some background of self-development. Sometimes this can be a drawback, because it can make him or her think that he/she knows more than he/she does. This is showing his/hers lack of humility, and lack of recognition of how much one really doesn't know anything about. In the teachers (here a male) effort to give all he can to the disciple, the teacher must reveal himself and his teaching little by little. If he where to give his full concentration at too early a stage, the disciple would not be able to absorb the teachings. Different aspects of the teacher are seen at different times. Some people even think that they see actual faults in the teacher. These strangely enough, are generally reflections of the faults of the student, which are coming to the surface. It is in order to place the disciple in a condition in which she/he can become accessible to the understanding of truth, by an inner sense, that the teacher takes on the burden of the student. He may have to ask for the sacrifice of things, which the student prizes the most. This often from good reasons, which will be explained, when time is right. When deprived of the teacher, the student will often be guided by his/hers own lower personality ("the commanding self"). A student at such a stage may attach to any centre or organisation of attraction, which offers Spiritual Development, and which the student finds exciting and interesting etc. This is because the student is at a stage where Spiritual Organisations has value - or that which the student thinks is Spiritual organisations, - but the student hasn't yet developed his/hers sense of discrimination. This situation may make the half-mature disciple proud, and she/he may set himself/herself up as a teacher, especially if the teacher has given him/her some authority. This sort of development is responsible for the fragmentation of true teachings, and their absorption by pseudo-Theosophical organisations, certain New Age Organisations or the like." (http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/BLAVATSK.HTM) "But also very often - the place, the organisation and the method one as a newcomer or lesser experienced Seeker wants or thinks is the best for oneself and perhaps even others - is really not so. They - the newcomers - have a tendency - because of a still remaining egoistic fragment in their character - to join those organisations, follow those methods, which they them selves feel comfortable about - and that with rather egoistical motives, whether they are conscious of it or not. A major reason is often that, - what - one really needs to learn - one really doesn't know much about. Only the initiate of the higher level knows - really knows. These newcomers are often not aware of, that there are many paths within the teachings of Theosophy. (See "The Secret Doctrine", II, p.191, on the paths)." (http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/BLAVATSK.HTM) from M. Sufilight with peace on Earth... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 6:33 PM Subject: Theos-World The Pseudo-Theosophy of Alice A. Bailey? > It has been contended by many students of H.P. Blavatsky that Alice > A. Bailey's teachings are "pseudo-Theosophy." > > See the following two essays: > > (1) "Theosophy's Shadow: [A Critical Look at the Claims and > Teachings of Alice A. Bailey]" > by Nicholas Weeks > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm > > (2) "The Pseudo-Occultism of Mrs. A. Bailey" > by Alice Leighton Cleather and Basil Crump > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/HPBvsAB.html > > For a differing point of view, see the following essays: > > (3) "Alice A. Bailey, H.P. Blavatsky and Helena Roerich: Cleavages > between the followers of three traditions: The Theosophical Society, > The Arcane School, The Agni Yoga Society" > by Phillip Lindsay > http://www.esotericastrologer.org/AABHPBHR.htm > > See especially: > "Refutation of Nicholas Weeks' article 'Theosophy's Shadow'" > by Phillip Lindsay > http://www.esotericastrologer.org/AABHPBHR.htm#TSNW > > (4) "H. P. Blavatsky versus Alice A. Bailey" > by Morten Sufilight > http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/BLAVATSK.HTM > > As one reads the above essays, one might also take into consideration > what is written in an essay titled: > > "Madame Blavatsky and the Latter-Day Messengers of the Masters" > compiled by Terry Hobbes > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/contradictionslatermessengers.htm > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://hpb.cc > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Dec 29 14:52:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 22:52:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 2143 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 22:52:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 22:52:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 22:52:44 -0000 Received: from mkrmain.gbronline.com [209.12.91.85] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id AC18A922006A; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:50:00 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021229165337.03c23e80@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:54:42 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World re BAG's speculations about HPB and ... ? In-Reply-To: References: <67.5c71be2.2b3fee03@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 From: MKR X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 X-Yahoo-Profile: ramadoss78229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am glad to see BAG using lower case in his msg. mkr At 12:49 PM 12/29/02 +0000, Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote: >Dear Mr. Leon Maurer, > >Your apparent hostility towards me seems to be based on some >erroneous assumptions that you have made. > >Here are the facts. >>>rest clipped<<< ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release Date: 12/25/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Sun Dec 29 15:57:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 29 Dec 2002 23:57:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 35771 invoked from network); 29 Dec 2002 23:57:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Dec 2002 23:57:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Dec 2002 23:57:06 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.4c.1620b0eb (4529) for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:57:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4c.1620b0eb.2b40e5cd@cs.com> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:57:01 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Esoteric World of Madame Blavatsky To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Daniel, Thanks as always for your posts and info on new additions to your site. In passing I want to clarify that it was I nor BAG who originally posted a content as regards Hermaphroditism and it's relevance to H.P.B., I bear complete responsibility for the entering of the topic, no one else but me. I say this knowing that you were likely to be not reading all the posts since you were on vacation for the 2 months you previously gave notice of. I will see if I still have my original post and forward to you. I am still searching for the original text that I recalled in regard to the topic, but as my library is not on a data base and my reading was more than 10 years ago my only solution is to go page by page through the volumes I have. In addition, there is I now see much that Madame Blavatsky had to say in the S.D. both in regard to the past cycle of the Globe and Races and to the future evolvement of the Humanity. I also attempted web searches specific to the topic but the Pasadena Lodge Home offers no "search" options for visitors there in regard to the "Certificate of Hermophroditism" which another member posted mention of and which I had no awareness of myself as the text I recalled did not use that term but only a general nonspecific allusion to a congenital condition she possessed. In my original post I included an appeal to you and others who operate Theosophical Home Pages to assist if possible. John John From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Dec 29 16:45:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 00:45:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 14820 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 00:45:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 00:45:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.90) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 00:45:55 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.160] by n6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2002 00:45:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 00:45:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: A.B. Kuhn on Besant's & Leadbeater's Deviations from Blavatsky's Teachings Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6044 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell A.B. Kuhn on Annie Besant's and C.W. Leadbeater's Deviations from H.P. Blavatsky's Teachings Alvin Boyd Kuhn in his book titled THEOSOPHY: A MODERN REVIVAL OF ANCIENT WISDOM (published 1930)wrote: --------------------------------------- [During the first three decades of the 20th century] Mrs. Besant and Mr. Leadbeater stood out unrivalled as the literary exponents and formulators of Theosophy. Their statements were hailed [within the Adyar Theosophical Society] with as much respect and authority as those of Madame Blavatsky in the earlier days. Both of them wrote assiduously and lectured with great frequency, and their publications rapidly began to supplant all other works on the Theosophic shelves. With The Ancient Wisdom, A Study in Consciousness, and Esoteric Christianity Mrs. Besant began a literary output which has been rarely matched in volume. Some eighty or more works now stand in her name. Mr. Leadbeater's total may reach twenty, but they are mostly of a more pretentious character than Mrs. Besant's, being accounts of his clairvoyant investigations into the nature and history of the world and man. His works had to do mostly with subjects connected with the Third Object of the Society, the psychic powers latent in man. Mrs. Besant touched alike on all three of the objects, not neglecting the ethical aspects of Theosophy, which she emphasized in such works as The Path of Discipleship and In The Outer Court. Predominantly under the influence of these two leaders the power of Theosophy spread widely in the world. Mr. Leadbeater was one of the participants with Mr. Sinnett and others in occult investigations carried on in the London Lodge, an autonomous group not fully in sympathy with some phases of Madame Blavatsky's work. He developed, as was reported, great psychic abilities, as the result of which, notwithstanding his frequent disclaiming of occult authority, he exercised great influence over the thought of a large number of members of the Society. His studies and his books reflected the attitude of "scientific common sense." He claims to have brought the phenomena of the superphysical realms of life, of the astral and the mental plane, of the future disembodied life, and of the past and future of this and other spheres, under his direct clairvoyant gaze. He wrote elaborate descriptions of these things in a style of simplicity and clearness. He asserted that such powers enabled one to review any event in the past history of the race, inasmuch as all that ever happened is imprinted indelibly on the substance of the Astral Light or the Akasha, and the psychic faculties of trained occultists permit them to bring these pictures under observation. With the same faculties he asserted his ability to investigate the facts of nature in both her realms of the infinite and the infinitesimal. Hence he explored the nature of the atom, its electrons and its whorls, and in collaboration with Mrs. Besant, who was alleged also to possess high psychic powers, published a work entitled Occult Chemistry. For years he stood as perhaps the world's greatest "seer," and in books dealing with Clairvoyance, Dreams, The Astral Plane, Some Glimpses of Occultism, The Inner Life, The Hidden Side of Things, Man: Whence, How and Whither, he labored to particularize and complement Madame Blavatsky's sweeping outline of cosmic evolution and human character, as given in The Secret Doctrine. Certain schools of his critics assert flatly that he has only succeeded in vitiating her original presentation. Two years ago [starting in the March 15, 1928 issue] The Canadian Theosophist, a magazine published under the editorship of Mr. Albert Smythe at Toronto, published a series of articles in which parallel passages from the writings of Madame Blavatsky and the Mahatma Letters on one side, and from the books of Mrs. Besant, Mr. Leadbeater, Mr. C. Jinarajadasa, on the other, give specific evidence bearing on the claims of perversion of the original theories by those whom they call Neo-Theosophists. The articles indicate wide deviations, in some cases complete reversal, made by the later interpreters [Besant, Leadbeater, Jinarajadasa] from the fundamental statements of the Russian Messenger [Blavatsky] and her Overlords [the Mahatmas]. The differences concern such matters as the personality of God, the historicity of Jesus, his identity as an individual or a principle, the desirability of churches, priestcraft and religious ceremonial, the genuineness of an apostolic succession, and a vicarious atonement, the authority of Sacraments, the nature and nomenclature of the seven planes of man's constitution, the planetary chains, the monad, the course of evolution, and many other important phases of Theosophic doctrine. This exhaustive research has made it apparent that the later exponents have allowed themselves to depart in many important points from the teachings of H.P.B. Whatever may be the causes operating to influence their intellectual developments, they have succeeded in giving Theosophy a somewhat different direction which, on the whole, has emphasized the religious temper and content of its doctrines. It should be added that these criticisms are not representative of the great majority of followers of the movement, who regard the later elaborations from fundamentals as both logical and desirable. For years Mr. Leadbeater was looked upon as the genuine link between the Society and its Mahatmic Wardens, and his utterances were received as law and authority by members of the organization from the President downward. . . . [pp. 329-331] ------------------------------------------------------------------ An online version of Kuhn's book is available at: http://downloads.members.tripod.com/~pc93/tsphyraw.htm The book is also inprint and available through Amazon.com See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564591751/ Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Dec 29 17:08:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 01:08:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 91882 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 01:08:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 01:08:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 01:08:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2002 01:08:56 -0000 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 01:08:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Santucci on Besant's and Leadbeater's Neo-Theosophy Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2934 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dr. James A. Santucci on Annie Besant's and C.W. Leadbeater's Neo- Theosophy [James A. Santucci is professor of religious studies and linguistics at California State University, Fullerton and editor of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY http://www.theohistory.org/ ] Dr. Santucci writes: -------------------------------------------------------- Although Blavatsky was certainly the most influential and the most brilliant interpreter of Theosophy, there was a subtle challenge to her position as protagonist of the Theosophical movement. The challenge came primarily from the two shining lights of the Adyar Theosophical Society during the first third of the 20th century: Annie Besant, the President of the Society from 1907 to her death in 1933, and Charles Webster Leadbeater, arguably the most influential theosophical writer from the early years of the 20th century to his death in 1934. The two were largely responsible for the introduction of new teachings that were often in total opposition to the Theosophy of Blavatsky and her Masters. These teachings were designated by their opponents as Neo-Theosophy [15] or less often Pseudo-Theosophy. The differences between Theosophy and Neo-Theosophy are too numerous to mention in the context of this paper,[16] but it is possible to capture the broad distinctions between the two: 1. the introduction of Catholicism and its attendant sacraments into the Adyar Theosophical Society through the agency of the Liberal Catholic Church and the efforts of its Presiding Bishop, James Ingall Wedgwood, and his close associate, the leading theosophical writer of the day, Charles Webster Leadbeater; 2. the claim, based on a psychic reading by Leadbeater in 1909, that a young Indian boy, Jiddu Krishnamurti, would serve as the vehicle of the World Teacher, the Christ or Maitreya. With such a claim came the establishment shortly thereafter of an organization to promote this belief, the Order of the Star in the East; 3. emphasis on the writings of Annie Besant and Charles Webster Leadbeater as the main purveyors of Theosophy to the almost total exclusion of those of H. P. Blavatsky; 4. more emphasis on the acquisition of and participation in psychic or occult powers rather than on the theoretical understanding of the occult. ----------------------------------- [Footnotes to Santucci's statements:] [15] The label was most likely coined in 1914 by F.T. Brooks, author of Neo-Theosophy Exposed and The Theosophical Society and its Esoteric Bogeydom. [16]An extensive overview is given in the unpublished booklet, Theosophy or Neo-Theosophy by Margaret Thomas, a member of the Theosophical Society in Scotland, Wales, and England. The booklet was written around 1925. -------------------------------------------------------------- The above quoted from: http://www.theohistory.org/aquarian_foundation.pdf Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Dec 29 18:57:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 02:57:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 28799 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 02:57:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 02:57:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 02:57:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.164] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2002 02:57:13 -0000 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 02:57:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "Certificate of Hermophroditism" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4c.1620b0eb.2b40e5cd@cs.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4013 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Hello John, Thanks for your email posted at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/10054 I have never heard about a "Certificate of Hermophroditism" in regards to Madame Blavatsky. But I think Jerry Hejka-Ekins has raised some very good points in his posting at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9972 Years ago I looked through the papers of Boris de Zirkoff preserved in the archives of the Theosophical Society in America (Wheaton, Illinois, USA). I never saw a document like the one described by Paul Johnson: "Some years ago I was told by a Theosophist that Boris de Zirkoff had a certificate 'proving' that HPB was a hermaphrodite." The only document I'm aware of is as follows: ------------------------------------------------------------ The undersigned testifies, as requested, that Madame Blavatsky of Bombay -- New York Corresponding Secretary of the Theosophical Society -- is at present under the medical treatment of the undersigned. She suffers from Anteflexio Uteri, most probably from the day of her birth; because, as proven by a minute examination, she has never borne a child, nor has she had any gynaecological illness. (signed) Dr. Leon Oppenheim Wurzburg, 3rd November, 1885. The signature of Dr. Leon Oppenheim is hereby officially attested. Wurzburg, 3rd November, 1885. The Royal Medical Officer of the District. (signed) Dr. Med. Roeder. We the undersigned hereby certify that the above is a correct translation of the German original now before us. Wurzburg, November 4, 1885. (Signed) Hubbe-Schleiden (Signed) Franz Gebhard. -------------------------------------------------------- This document was transcribed from the original in the archives of the Theosophical Society, Adyar, Madras, India and published in "The Personal Memoirs of H. P. Blavatsky," compiled by Mary K. Neff (E. P. Dutton & Co., 1938). You can also find the above document on the WWW at: http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/carrith1.htm See also Madame Blavatsky's letter which reads: ------------------------------------------------------- Private. I enclose the medical certificate of Prof. Oppenheimer who made a minute and exact examination "since my illness finds itself complicated now by some congenital crookedness of the uterus as he says -- having it appears something to do with child-bearing (the uterus in general not mine or its crookedness) and which (though I had always had a dim conception that "uterus" was the same thing as "bladder") -- which crookedness kills at once the missionaries and their hopes of proving me the mother of three or more children. He had written a long and complicated statement of the reason why I could never have not only children, but anything in the shape of an extra since unless an operation is now made -- they can't get at that blessed uterus to cure it. I thanked and declined. Better die than have an operation made. But knowing this (certificate) shall have probably to be read in my defence -- I did not permit him to go into physiological particulars and asked him simply to certify the fact that I never had any child or children, nor could I have them. What next shall people say? Yours dishonoured in my old age H. P. BLAVATSKY. Franz Gebhard and Hubbe Schleiden translated the certificate for you. The Dr. (Oppenheimer) says that Gynaecological "illness" means "woman's functions" and shows intactness (as Mme. Noury of Stead's trial has it) Hubbe Schleiden explaining to me blushingly that "it is a delicate and scientific way of putting it, and very clear." Don't show this to anyone -- I write it to you as a trusted friend -- its real SHAME to speak of it -- though I am decided that my friends and defenders should know it. Keep the certificate. ------------------------------------------------------------ Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-aps/bl-74.htm Hope this helps. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Dec 29 20:39:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 04:39:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 20531 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 04:39:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 04:39:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m06.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.161) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 04:39:24 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.10c.1cf7bb2b (30950) for ; Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:39:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <10c.1cf7bb2b.2b4127f7@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:39:19 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB and after her -- some T S history To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 What does "time appropriate" mean? What does the passage of "time" have to do with the three fundamental principles of theosophy, or with its philosophical, scientific and religious ideas linked to involution and evolution, Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis and other metaphysical truths that these "propositions" are the foundation of? If you have evidence of the invalidity of the ancient occult and esoteric teachings that were presented to us, in modern understandable language, by HPB in 1888 -- (much of which, starting with the ideas of Einstein and others, is beginning now to be verified at the cutting edges of scientific philosophy and philosophical science) -- I'm sure everyone here would be more than happy to hear about them and offer their considered attention and intelligent comments. Negative talk about these ideas and vague hubristic implications of hidden knowledge, without offering alternative principles coupled with logical argument related to their progressive developments and conclusions, is nothing more than empty whistling in the wind. And, to say that HPB would redesign her teachings if she were alive today is an opinionated negative remark, and a perfect example of projection, and why this forum ends up with bickering that has nothing to do with theosophy or rational thinking. The "bickering" which you speak of and seem to abhor (and also, apparently, instigate) which I might agree is sometimes a bit foolish -- (although there appear to be some here who are attempting to disrupt logical theosophical thought for various ulterior reasons and need to be "called out") -- is also what keeps this forum dynamic, and not a victim of imposed ideas and bland, homogenized thinking that is evident on other forums domineered by self designated "gurus" and their sycophants. What's wrong with strong defense against bigotry and prejudice, or countering false implications about theosophy whenever those concepts creep into these discussions? ... That should be focussed on theosophical ideas and their practical applications, and not on personalities, negative opinions about this, that, them, and other unrelated things, or historical and political side issues. (Although, I, for one, think that there are not enough here who are resistant to being brainwashed, and aren't too polite to call out a disrupter or unfounded confounder when they see one.) LHM In a message dated 12/28/02 10:18:01 PM, wry1111@earthlink.net writes: >Hi. Perhaps the kind of very small talk, political arguing, arguing in >general, nitpicking, looking back at little inconsequential details from the >past and analyzing them etc. is a result of the condition of the theosophy >movement at the present time. I have not seen anything quite like the >bickering on theosophy lists on any other lists I have been on that are of >about this size. Generally speaking, though not always, people can get >along and stay pretty focused. I am not saying that this is necessarily true, >but perhaps theosophy, as it was originally presented, is no longer >time-appropriate. Things have moved very fast in the last hundred plus >years. This is worthy of enquiry. I believe if Madame Blavatsky were alive, >she would redesign her whole teaching. > >There is not enough real enquiry on here, though I have seen some. In any >case, learning needs to be set up so that it is a constant discovery. In >this way there is joy and not authority and dullness. With joyful learning, >there is the rapture of a constant opening and a constant dying. We will >not have time to worry about immortality. In my opinion this kind of talk of >immortality that some have been doing is not only a belief, but it is an >oxymoron, as it serves no function. In love, there is a constant dying to >the old. When everything is always new, it will be clean again, and many >people can be helped. This is my genuine opinion, and I am even afraid >to speak this on here, which is sad. > >This message is not about you and your behavior, necessarily, but I use >it to link to, as it has brought again to my mind an interesting question, >which I have pondered many, many hours: the time-appropriateness of this >particular teaching in the form it is now being presented. Sincerely, Wry From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Sun Dec 29 22:41:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 06:41:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 81749 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 06:41:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 06:41:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout1.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.20) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 06:41:45 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([62.0.148.59]) by mxout1.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) with SMTP id <0H7X00CRV6KSEW@mxout1.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:41:44 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 08:39:47 +0200 Subject: Six discourses by Meher Baba on Sanskaras, and the nature of the ego and its termination To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <000e01c2afce$3fb70d00$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal From: Etzion Becker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 X-Yahoo-Profile: etzion7398 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am sending all the six discourses at once. I simply don't have the time to separate them, you can do it yourselves. The Master was reluctant to give discourses, He said that we are deaf to the truth, so He kept silent. Neverthless, his disciples managed to persuade him to offer some verbal explanations, which he gave on an alphabet board. He gave 70 discourses during the 30s and the 40th. I would read the discourses on the ego first, and then go to the problem of sanskaras. Etzion [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Mon Dec 30 01:00:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 09:00:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 7362 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 09:00:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 09:00:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d03.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 09:00:04 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.78.342181da (4468) for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:59:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <78.342181da.2b41650c@cs.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 03:59:56 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World "Certificate of Hermophroditism" To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Danial, Thanks so very much for your able assistance. I see in reading your posted article of the Letter that at least my memory was near to veracity even though over 10 years had passed. The Uterine condition describes aligns to the "abnormal congenital condition of her private parts" I had recall of. So it seems that the ascription of Hermaphroditism would not be the proper term. Case settled. It seems to me that a "Prolapsed Uterus" is far from qualifying one for designation of Hermaphroditism. John From zackl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 30 03:44:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: zackl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 11:44:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 49077 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 11:44:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 11:44:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mclean.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.57) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 11:44:24 -0000 Received: from sdn-ap-016masprip0499.dialsprint.net ([63.186.225.245] helo=zackl) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SyLG-00021m-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 06:44:23 -0500 Message-ID: <001a01c2aff9$97c85000$8de1ba3f@zackl> To: References: <1041167793.632.69456.m12@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Seven Rays and Religions Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 06:49:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Zack Lansdowne" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=9748772 X-Yahoo-Profile: zflansdowne M. Sufilight asked for comments regarding the following Bailey quotation: > Esoteric Psychology I, p.167 > ******************** > > > "Every great religion which arises is under the influence of one or other of > the rays, but it does not necessarily follow that each successive ray > should have a great far-reaching religion as its outcome. We have heard > that Brahmanism is the last great religion which arose under first ray > influence; we do not know what may have been the religion which was the > outcome of the last second ray period; but the Chaldean, the Egyptian > and the Zoroastrian religions may be taken as representing the third, > the fourth, and the fifth rays respectively. Christianity and probably > Buddhism were the result of sixth ray influence. Mohammedanism, which > numbers so large a following, is also under sixth ray influence, but it > is NOT a great root religion, being a hybrid offshoot of Christianity > with the tinge of Judaism." > > Although the typology of the seven rays is not mentioned very much on this list, it is a typology that was developed during the past century by many theosophical writers. This typology began with Blavatsky's "Secret Doctrine," and was further developed by C. W. Leadbeater, Earnest Wood, Geoffrey Hodson, as well as Alice Bailey. In particular, Bailey was not the only writer to associate the seven rays with religions. C. W. Leadbeater, in "The Masters and the Path" (first published in 1925 by the Theosophical Publishing House) provides the following associations: first ray-- Brahmanical; second ray-- Buddhism; third ray-- Chaldean; fourth ray-- Egyptian; fifth ray-- Zoroastrian; sixth ray-- Christianity; and seventh ray-- Elemental Worship. Geoffrey Hodson, in "The Seven Human Temperaments" (first published in 1952 by the Theosophical Publishing House) provides the following associations: first ray-- Hinduism; second ray-- Buddhism; third ray-- Chaldean, Egyptian; fourth ray-- Orphic, Egyptian; fifth ray-- Zoroastrian; sixth ray-- Christian; seventh ray-- Ritualistic aspects of all religions, Masonry. Note that Hodson lists "Egyptian" under both the third and fourth rays. While there are some agreements among Bailey's, Leadbeater's and Hodson's associations, there are also some differences, which shows that these three writers were independent and didn't simply copy each other. Zack Lansdowne From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 30 04:28:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 12:28:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 12535 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 12:28:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 12:28:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 12:28:15 -0000 Received: from pool0104.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.104] helo=earthlink) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Sz1c-0002ZK-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:28:09 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Theos-World More reference? Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:23:41 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 30 2002 Re writings of Olcott, Besant, Leadbeater. compare with H P B and Masters' writings. Dear Terrie: I have looked over the writings of the three persons you quote, sufficiently to say that they do not cohere faithfully to the "message of theosophy from the Masters of Wisdom" as given to us by H P B. They offer their personal opinions. Those are fine if they adhere to the teachings as given by H P B for the Masters of Wisdom. The problem is of exactitude and of necessity. It would be unfair for me to say more, as I have not exhaustively made a study of these beyond satisfying myself that they add little to THEOSOPHY, and in fact, I find that they confuse in some cases. They are discohate, as any student who takes the time to consider and compare them, will find out for themselves. If I said any more, I would be posing as an "authority." And that I prefer not to do. As one with some experience I know the only way to satisfy ones' self is to STUDY and DISCOVER for ones' self.. Then we can say: "I KNOW." Take what I write. It can be classified as opinion of course. But I try my best to stick to the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS. And I give my sources and quotations from them. I freely admit that I may make errors and ought to be always checked out for accuracy. I hold it that THEOSOPHY is an accurate presentation of the History of Evolution -- and it involves all of us as immortal pilgrims ( never-dying SPIRITUAL Monads) pursuing a goal : SUBLIME PERFECTION. Or if you prefer, say it is a complete knowledge of all that can be learned in our world and universe. Of course this cannot be learned in a single short life-time, but we are immortals, and hence we add, every incarnation, what we learn new to that which we have stored as memory from the past. Our characters, our tendencies, our inclinations, our genius in some directions, and also the things we find difficult to do, or, do not like at all -- these are all indications to us of what we have been learning and studying in past incarnations. They are also indications to us in an honest way, of how our "personalities" (our psychic natures -- named KAMA) and its likes and dislikes have shaped it. It is one of our tools, the other two are the mind and the body. If this is indefinite, it is because it is so vast. The THREE FUNDAMENTAL PROPOSITIONS (S D I 14-19 ought to be thoroughly understood by all students, and applied rigorously to all studies and statements. Theosophy to be valuable, useful and true, ( Monads) and to be used to DISCOVER. the causes that have shaped the world around us, has to first be made a surety. Only each one of us has to do that for themselves. I know the only way to satisfy ones' self about it, is to devise as sincere and honest approach we can and then apply that rigorously to all we look into or study -- Everything has to be made to pass the test of lawfulness, brotherhood, uniformity in tolerance, harmony and coherence. But it is we who have to put it to those tests, using the most sincere and honest approach we can devise. The consensus and comparison of our studies, as compared to our co-students, will reveal whether that information is fair, just and accurate. We need careful and honest comparison. There are many who criticize THEOSOPHY without knowing enough about it. Why they "stick their necks out" I will never understand. However here are some views that may help: These may relate to other writers of "theosophical" material who followed H P B, but some of the comments made there also relate to the ones you ask about, though with varying degrees of comparative accuracy. -------- 1 Dr. James A. Santucci on Annie Besant's and C. W. Leadbeater's Neo- Theosophy [James A. Santucci is professor of religious studies and linguistics at California State University, Fullerton and editor of THEOSOPHICAL HISTORY http://www.theohistory.org/ ] Dr. Santucci writes: -------------------------------------------------------- Although Blavatsky was certainly the most influential and the most brilliant interpreter of Theosophy, there was a subtle challenge to her position as protagonist of the Theosophical movement. The challenge came primarily from the two shining lights of the Adyar Theosophical Society during the first third of the 20th century: Annie Besant, the President of the Society from 1907 to her death in 1933, and Charles Webster Leadbeater, arguably the most influential theosophical writer from the early years of the 20th century to his death in 1934. The two were largely responsible for the introduction of new teachings that were often in total opposition to the Theosophy of Blavatsky and her Masters. These teachings were designated by their opponents as Neo-Theosophy [15] or less often Pseudo-Theosophy. The differences between Theosophy and Neo-Theosophy are too numerous to mention in the context of this paper,[16] but it is possible to capture the broad distinctions between the two: 1. the introduction of Catholicism and its attendant sacraments into the Adyar Theosophical Society through the agency of the Liberal Catholic Church and the efforts of its Presiding Bishop, James Ingall Wedgwood, and his close associate, the leading theosophical writer of the day, Charles Webster Leadbeater; 2. the claim, based on a psychic reading by Leadbeater in 1909, that a young Indian boy, Jiddu Krishnamurti, would serve as the vehicle of the World Teacher, the Christ or Maitreya. With such a claim came the establishment shortly thereafter of an organization to promote this belief, the Order of the Star in the East; 3. emphasis on the writings of Annie Besant and Charles Webster Leadbeater as the main purveyors of Theosophy to the almost total exclusion of those of H. P. Blavatsky; 4. more emphasis on the acquisition of and participation in psychic or occult powers rather than on the theoretical understanding of the occult. ----------------------------------- [Footnotes to Santucci's statements:] [15] The label was most likely coined in 1914 by F. T. Brooks, author of Neo-Theosophy Exposed and The Theosophical Society and its Esoteric Bogeydom. [16]An extensive overview is given in the unpublished booklet, Theosophy or Neo-Theosophy by Margaret Thomas, a member of the Theosophical Society in Scotland, Wales, and England. The booklet was written around 1925. -------------------------------------------------------------- The above quoted from: http://www.theohistory.org/aquarian_foundation.pdf Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc =================== 2 A.B. Kuhn on Annie Besant's and C. W. Leadbeater's Deviations from H.P. Blavatsky's Teachings Alvin Boyd Kuhn in his book titled THEOSOPHY: A MODERN REVIVAL OF ANCIENT WISDOM (published 1930)wrote: --------------------------------------- [During the first three decades of the 20th century] Mrs. Besant and Mr. Leadbeater stood out unrivalled as the literary exponents and formulators of Theosophy. Their statements were hailed [within the Adyar Theosophical Society] with as much respect and authority as those of Madame Blavatsky in the earlier days. Both of them wrote assiduously and lectured with great frequency, and their publications rapidly began to supplant all other works on the Theosophic shelves. With The Ancient Wisdom, A Study in Consciousness, and Esoteric Christianity Mrs. Besant began a literary output which has been rarely matched in volume. Some eighty or more works now stand in her name. Mr. Leadbeater's total may reach twenty, but they are mostly of a more pretentious character than Mrs. Besant's, being accounts of his clairvoyant investigations into the nature and history of the world and man. His works had to do mostly with subjects connected with the Third Object of the Society, the psychic powers latent in man. Mrs. Besant touched alike on all three of the objects, not neglecting the ethical aspects of Theosophy, which she emphasized in such works as The Path of Discipleship and In The Outer Court. Predominantly under the influence of these two leaders the power of Theosophy spread widely in the world. Mr. Leadbeater was one of the participants with Mr. Sinnett and others in occult investigations carried on in the London Lodge, an autonomous group not fully in sympathy with some phases of Madame Blavatsky's work. He developed, as was reported, great psychic abilities, as the result of which, notwithstanding his frequent disclaiming of occult authority, he exercised great influence over the thought of a large number of members of the Society. His studies and his books reflected the attitude of "scientific common sense." He claims to have brought the phenomena of the super-physical realms of life, of the astral and the mental plane, of the future disembodied life, and of the past and future of this and other spheres, under his direct clairvoyant gaze. He wrote elaborate descriptions of these things in a style of simplicity and clearness. He asserted that such powers enabled one to review any event in the past history of the race, inasmuch as all that ever happened is imprinted indelibly on the substance of the Astral Light or the Akasha, and the psychic faculties of trained occultists permit them to bring these pictures under observation. With the same faculties he asserted his ability to investigate the facts of nature in both her realms of the infinite and the infinitesimal. Hence he explored the nature of the atom, its electrons and its whorls, and in collaboration with Mrs. Besant, who was alleged also to possess high psychic powers, published a work entitled Occult Chemistry. For years he stood as perhaps the world's greatest "seer," and in books dealing with Clairvoyance, Dreams, The Astral Plane, Some Glimpses of Occultism, The Inner Life, The Hidden Side of Things, Man: Whence, How and Whither, he labored to particularize and complement Madame Blavatsky's sweeping outline of cosmic evolution and human character, as given in The Secret Doctrine. Certain schools of his critics assert flatly that he has only succeeded in vitiating her original presentation. Two years ago [starting in the March 15, 1928 issue] The Canadian Theosophist, a magazine published under the editorship of Mr. Albert Smythe at Toronto, published a series of articles in which parallel passages from the writings of Madame Blavatsky and the Mahatma Letters on one side, and from the books of Mrs. Besant, Mr. Leadbeater, Mr. C. Jinarajadasa, on the other, give specific evidence bearing on the claims of perversion of the original theories by those whom they call Neo-Theosophists. The articles indicate wide deviations, in some cases complete reversal, made by the later interpreters [Besant, Leadbeater, Jinarajadasa] from the fundamental statements of the Russian Messenger [Blavatsky] and her Overlords [the Mahatmas]. The differences concern such matters as the personality of God, the historicity of Jesus, his identity as an individual or a principle, the desirability of churches, priestcraft and religious ceremonial, the genuineness of an apostolic succession, and a vicarious atonement, the authority of Sacraments, the nature and nomenclature of the seven planes of man's constitution, the planetary chains, the monad, the course of evolution, and many other important phases of Theosophic doctrine. This exhaustive research has made it apparent that the later exponents have allowed themselves to depart in many important points from the teachings of H.P.B. Whatever may be the causes operating to influence their intellectual developments, they have succeeded in giving Theosophy a somewhat different direction which, on the whole, has emphasized the religious temper and content of its doctrines. It should be added that these criticisms are not representative of the great majority of followers of the movement, who regard the later elaborations from fundamentals as both logical and desirable. For years Mr. Leadbeater was looked upon as the genuine link between the Society and its Mahatmic Wardens, and his utterances were received as law and authority by members of the organization from the President downward. . . . [pp. 329-331] ------------------------------------------------------------------ An online version of Kuhn's book is available at: http://downloads.members.tripod.com/~pc93/tsphyraw.htm The book is also in print and available through Amazon.com See: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564591751/ Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc ===================== I hope that this proves to be helpful.. Basically there are NO SHORT CUTS to knowledge. We have to verify everything ourselves, or wells like some members of religions we place a blind faith on those who claim authority, and we fail to investigate religious origins and history, as well as the philosophical and logical basis for their doctrines. AND WE REMAIN A LITTLE MORE IGNORANT AS A RESULT. And we loose a lot of time. Best wishes, Dallas ========================== -----Original Message----- From: thalprin < Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 4:01 PM To: Subject: More reference? T S writers after H P B Hi, If it's no bother, Dallas, Daniel, Morton could you provide more info/reference/links about the works/efforts of Helena Roerich, Olcott and Krishnamurti? ---------------------------------------- DTB BETTER READ AND STUDY WHAT THEY WROTE AND FORM YOUR OWN OPINIONS ========================= I'd be interested in better understanding the explorations and/or efforts of these folks. Sincerely, Terrie From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 30 04:28:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 12:28:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 76771 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 12:28:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 12:28:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 12:28:16 -0000 Received: from pool0104.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.104] helo=earthlink) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Sz1i-0002ZK-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:28:15 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: HPB and after her Graphing the TRUTH ? Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:23:58 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 30 2002 Can the TRUTH be GRAPHED ? Dear Terrie: You'll have to devise your own graphs. Don't be in a rush. It may prove to be interesting work. Find out.. However, I would say: Quantitative information does not make it TRUE INFORMATION. Graphs tend to show a tendency towards a pure result. They do not prove IT IS PURE. Science makes use of graphs because there are some result influencing "impurities" (of material, condition or environment) which cannot be controlled. It is a kind of "short-cut." and indicates a tendency, rather than an actuality. The Laws Of Mass Action take into account counter-laws which cause individual atoms or molecules to oppose the general tendency towards a predetermined result. Why they react that way is not clear yet. Result is: INDETERMINACY. Theosophy says that individuality and self-determination even to the atomic or sub-atomic levels is an indication of AN INTELLIGENCE that has FREEDOM OF CHOICE even under the impact of universal laws. TRUTH is TRUTH, and approximations are NOT TRUTH. There are no "grey" areas. That is one reason we all ought to call ourselves STUDENTS of Theosophy. We are trying to learn the essentials and causes for what we see all about us and about the events that come up and meet us as we proceed in life. The designation THEOSOPHIST ought to be reserved for the Masters of Wisdom. Best wishes, Dal ========================== -----Original Message----- From: thalprin Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 1:31 PM To: Subject: HPB and after her -- Graphing the Truth ? Dear Dallas, Thank you for the links and the reading suggestions. Myself, I am curious and interested in trying to better understand how thangs progressed, took shape, blossomed and plowed after HPB passed along. In deed there does very much seem (as was expected) that many-varied seeds sprouted from that planting and/or her efforts at gardening and maintaining growth or fertile grounds. It'd be interesting to see it illustrated on a graph. Are there any graphs? Have a BEAUTIFUL day, Terrie From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 30 04:30:14 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 12:30:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 86669 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 12:30:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 12:30:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 12:30:13 -0000 Received: from pool0104.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.104] helo=earthlink) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Sz1B-0002ZK-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:27:42 -0800 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: Part I KARMIC VISIONS - H P B Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:22:46 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable KARMIC VISIONS Part I ---------------------------------- KARMIC VISIONS Article by H. P. Blavatsky Oh, sad no more! Oh, sweet No more! Oh, strange No more! By a mossed brook bank on a stone I smelt a wild weed-flower alone; There was a ringing in my ears, And both my eyes gushed out with tears, Surely all pleasant things had gone before. Buried fathom deep beneath with thee, NO MORE! = =20 --TENNYSON ("The Gem," 1831) I A CAMP filled with war-chariots, neighing horses and legions of long-haired soldiers. . . . A regal tent, gaudy in its barbaric splendour. Its linen walls are weighed down under the burden of arms. In its centre a raised seat covered with skins, and on it a stalwart, savage-looking warrior. He passes in review prisoners of war brought in turn before him, who are disposed of according to the whim of the heartless despot. A new captive is now before him, and is addressing him with passionate earnestness. . . . As he listens to her with suppressed passion in his manly, but fierce, cruel face, the balls of his eyes become bloodshot and roll with fury. And as he bends forward with fierce stare, his whole appearance--his matted locks hanging over the frowning brow, his big-boned body with strong sinews, and the two large hands resting on the shield placed upon the right knee--justifies the remark made in hardly audible whisper by a grey-headed soldier to his neighbor: "Little mercy shall the holy prophetess receive at the hand of Clovis!" The captive, who stands between two Burgundian warriors, facing the ex-prince of the Salians, now king of all the Franks, is an old woman with silver-white dishevelled hair, hanging over her skeleton-like shoulders. In spite of her great age, her tall figure is erect; and the inspired black eyes look proudly and fearlessly into the cruel face of the treacherous son of Gilderich. "Aye, King," she says, in a loud, ringing voice. "Aye, thou art great and mighty now, but thy days are numbered, and thou shalt reign but three summers longer. Wicked thou wert born . . . perfidious thou art to thy friends and allies, robbing more than one of his lawful crown. Murderer of thy next-of-kin, thou who addest to the knife and spear in open warfare, dagger, poison, and treason, beware how thou dealest with the servant of Nerthus!" [The =93Mother Goddess,=94 The =93Nurturer of the World.=94] "Ha, ha, ha! . . . old hag of Hell!" chuckles the King, with an evil, ominous sneer. "Thou hast crawled out of the entrails of thy mother-goddess, truly. Thou fearest not my wrath? It is well. But little need I fear thine empty imprecations. . . . I, a baptized Christian!" "So, so," replies the Sybil. "All know that Clovis has abandoned the gods of his fathers; that he has lost all faith in the warning voice of the white horse of the Sun, and that out of fear of the Alemanni he went serving on his knees Remigius, the servant of the Nazarene, at Rheims. But hast thou become any truer in thy new faith? Hast thou not murdered in cold blood all thy brethren who trusted in thee, after, as well as before, thy apostasy? Hast not thou plighted troth to Alaric, the King of the West Goths, and hast thou not killed him by stealth, running thy spear into his back while he was bravely fighting an enemy? And is it thy new faith and thy new gods that teach thee to be devising in thy black soul even now foul means against Theodoric, who put thee down? . . . Beware, Clovis, beware! For now the gods of thy fathers have risen against thee! Beware, I say, for. . . ." "Woman!" fiercely cries the King--"Woman, cease thy insane talk and answer my question. Where is the treasure of the grove amassed by thy priests of Satan, and hidden after they had been driven away by the Holy Cross? . . . Thou alone knowest. Answer, or by Heaven and Hell I shall thrust thy evil tongue down thy throat for ever!" . . . She heeds not the threat, but goes on calmly and fearlessly as before, as if she had not heard. ". . . The gods say, Clovis, thou art accursed! . . . Clovis, thou shalt be reborn among thy present enemies, and suffer the tortures thou hast inflicted upon thy victims. All the combined power and glory thou hast deprived them of shall be thine in prospect, yet thou shalt never reach it! . . . Thou shalt . . ." The prophetess never finishes her sentence. With a terrible oath the King, crouching like a wild beast on his skin-covered seat, pounces upon her with the leap of a jaguar, and with one blow fells her to the ground. And as he lifts his sharp murderous spear the "Holy One" of the Sun-worshipping tribe makes the air ring with a last imprecation. "I curse thee, enemy of Nerthus! May my agony be tenfold thine! . . . . May the Great Law avenge. . . ." The heavy spear falls, and, running through the victim's throat, nails the head to the ground. A stream of hot crimson blood gushes from the gaping wound and covers king and soldiers with indelible gore. . . . II Time--the landmark of gods and men in the boundless field of Eternity, the murderer of its offspring and of memory in mankind--time moves on with noiseless, incessant step through aeons and ages. . . . Among millions of other Souls, a Soul-Ego is reborn: for weal or for woe, who knoweth! Captive in its new human Form, it grows with it, and together they become, at last, conscious of their existence. Happy are the years of their blooming youth, unclouded with want or sorrow. Neither knows aught of the Past nor of the Future. For them all is the joyful Present: for the Soul-Ego is unaware that it had ever lived in other human tabernacles, it knows not that it shall be again reborn, and it takes no thought of the morrow. Its Form is calm and content. It has hitherto given its Soul-Ego no heavy troubles. Its happiness is due to the continuous mild serenity of its temper, to the affection it spreads wherever it goes. For it is a noble Form, and its heart is full of benevolence. Never has the Form startled its Soul-Ego with a too-violent shock, or otherwise disturbed the calm placidity of its tenant. Two score of years glide by like one short pilgrimage; a long walk through the sun-lit paths of life, hedged by ever-blooming roses with no thorns. The rare sorrows that befall the twin pair, Form and Soul, appear to them rather like the pale light of the cold northern moon, whose beams throw into a deeper shadow all around the moon-lit objects, than as the blackness of night, the night of hopeless sorrow and despair. Son of a Prince, born to rule himself one day his father's kingdom; surrounded from his cradle by reverence and honours; deserving of the universal respect and sure of the love of all--what could the Soul-Ego desire more from the Form it dwelt in? And so the Soul-Ego goes on enjoying existence in its tower of strength, gazing quietly at the panorama of life ever changing before its two windows--the two kind blue eyes of a loving and good man. III One day an arrogant and boisterous enemy threatens the father's kingdom, and the savage instincts of the warrior of old awaken in the Soul-Ego. It leaves its dream-land amid the blossoms of life and causes its Ego of clay to draw the soldier's blade, assuring him it is in defence of his country. Prompting each other to action, they defeat the enemy and cover themselves with glory and pride. They make the haughty foe bite the dust at their feet in supreme humiliation. For this they are crowned by history with the unfading laurels of valour, which are those of success. They make a footstool of the fallen enemy and transform their sire's little kingdom into a great empire. Satisfied they could achieve no more for the present, they return to seclusion and to the dreamland of their sweet home. For three lustra more the Soul-Ego sits at its usual post, beaming out of its window on the world around. Over its head the sky is blue and the vast horizons are covered with those seemingly unfading flowers that grow in the sunlight of health and strength. All looks fair as a verdant mead in spring. . . . . . IV But an evil day comes to all in the drama of being. It waits through the life of king and of beggar. It leaves traces on the history of every mortal born from woman, and it can neither be scared away, entreated. nor propitiated. Health is a dewdrop that falls from the heavens to vivify the blossoms on earth only during the morn of life. its spring and summer. . . . It has but a short duration and returns from whence it came--the invisible realms. How oft 'neath the bud that is brightest and fairest, The seeds of the canker in embryo lurk! How oft at the root of the flower that is rarest-- Secure in its ambush the worm is at work. . . . The running sand which moves downward in the glass, wherein the hours of human life are numbered, runs swifter. The worm has gnawed the blossom of health through its heart. The strong body is found stretched one day on the thorny bed of pain. The Soul-Ego beams no longer. It sits still and looks sadly out of what has become its dungeon windows, on the world which is now rapidly being shrouded for it in the funeral palls of suffering. Is it the eve of night eternal which is nearing? V Beautiful are the resorts on the midland sea. An endless line of surf-beaten, black, ragged rocks stretches, hemmed in between the golden sands of the coast and the deep blue waters of the gulf. They offer their granite breast to the fierce blows of the northwest wind and thus protect the dwellings of the rich that nestle at their foot on the inland side. The half-ruined cottages on the open shore are the insufficient shelter of the poor. Their squalid bodies are often crushed under the walls torn and washed down by wind and angry wave. But they only follow the great law of the survival of the fittest. Why should they be protected? Lovely is the morning when the sun dawns with golden amber tints and its first rays kiss the cliffs of the beautiful shore. Glad is the song of the lark, as, emerging from its warm nest of herbs, it drinks the morning dew from the deep flower-cups; when the tip of the rosebud thrills under the caress of the first sunbeam, and earth and heaven smile in mutual greeting. Sad is the Soul-Ego alone as it gazes on awakening nature from the high couch opposite the large bay-window. How calm is the approaching noon as the shadow creeps steadily on the sundial towards the hour of rest! Now the hot sun begins to melt the clouds in the limpid air and the last shreds of the morning mist that lingers on the tops of the distant hills vanish in it. All nature is prepared to rest at the hot and lazy hour of midday. The feathered tribes cease their song; their soft, gaudy wings droop, and they hang their drowsy heads, seeking refuge from the burning heat. A morning lark is busy nestling in the bordering bushes under the clustering flowers of the pomegranate and the sweet bay of the Mediterranean. The active songster has become voiceless. "Its voice will resound as joyfully again to-morrow!" sighs the Soul-Ego, as it listens to the dying buzzing of the insects on the verdant turf. "Shall ever mine?" And now the flower-scented breeze hardly stirs the languid heads of the luxuriant plants. A solitary palm-tree, growing out of the cleft of a moss-covered rock, next catches the eye of the Soul-Ego. Its once upright, cylindrical trunk has been twisted out of shape and half-broken by the nightly blasts of the north-west winds. And as it stretches wearily its drooping feathery arms, swayed to and fro in the blue pellucid air, its body trembles and threatens to break in two at the first new gust that may arise. "And then, the severed part will fall into the sea, and the once stately palm will be no more," soliloquises the Soul-Ego as it gazes sadly out of its windows. Everything returns to life in the cool, old bower at the hour of sunset. The shadows on the sun-dial become with every moment thicker, and animate nature awakens busier than ever in the cooler hours of approaching night. Birds and insects chirrup and buzz their last evening hymns around the tall and still powerful Form, as it paces slowly and wearily along the gravel walk. And now its heavy gaze falls wistfully on the azure bosom of the tranquil sea. The gulf sparkles like a gem-studded carpet of blue-velvet in the farewell dancing sunbeams, and smiles like a thoughtless, drowsy child, weary of tossing about. Further on, calm and serene in its perfidious beauty, the open sea stretches far and wide the smooth mirror of its cool waters--salt and bitter as human tears. It lies in its treacherous repose like a gorgeous, sleeping monster, watching over the unfathomed mystery of its dark abysses. Truly the monumentless cemetery of the millions sunk in its depths. . . . Without a grave, Unknell'd, uncoffined and unknown. . . . while the sorry relic of the once noble Form pacing yonder, once that its hour strikes and the deep-voiced bells toll the knell for the departed soul, shall be laid out in state and pomp. Its dissolution will be announced by millions of trumpet voices. Kings, princes and the mighty ones of the earth will be present at its obsequies, or will send their representatives with sorrowful faces and condoling messages to those left behind. . . "One point gained, over those 'uncoffined and unknown'," is the bitter reflection of the Soul-Ego. Thus glides past one day after the other; and as swift-winged Time urges his flight, every vanishing hour destroying some thread in the tissue of life, the Soul-Ego is gradually transformed in its views of things and men. Flitting between two eternities, far away from its birth-place, solitary among its crowd of physicians, and attendants, the Form is drawn with every day nearer to its Spirit-Soul. Another light unapproached and unapproachable in days of joy, softly descends upon the weary prisoner. It sees now that which it had never perceived before. . . . . . VI How grand, how mysterious are the spring nights on the seashore when the winds are chained and the elements lulled! A solemn silence reigns in nature. Alone the silvery, scarcely audible ripple of the wave, as it runs caressingly over the moist sand, kissing shells and pebbles on its up and down journey, reaches the ear like the regular soft breathing of a sleeping bosom. How small, how insignificant and helpless feels man, during these quiet hours, as he stands between the two gigantic magnitudes, the star-hung dome above, and the slumbering earth below. Heaven and earth are plunged in sleep, but their souls are awake, and they confabulate, whispering one to the other mysteries unspeakable. It is then that the occult side of Nature lifts her dark veils for us, and reveals secrets we would vainly seek to extort from her during the day. The firmament, so distant, so far away from earth, now seems to approach and bend over her. The sidereal meadows exchange embraces with their more humble sisters of the earth--the daisy-decked valleys and the green slumbering fields. The heavenly dome falls prostrate into the arms of the great quiet sea; and the millions of stars that stud the former peep into and bathe in every lakelet and pool. To the grief-furrowed soul those twinkling orbs are the eyes of angels. They look down with ineffable pity on the suffering of mankind. It is not the night dew that falls on the sleeping flowers, but sympathetic tears that drop from those orbs, at the sight of the Great HUMAN SORROW. . . . Yes; sweet and beautiful is a southern night. But-- When silently we watch the bed, by the taper's flickering light, When all we love is fading fast--how terrible is night. . . . -------------------------------- Part II is sent separately starting with Chapter VII [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 30 04:30:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 12:30:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 15203 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 12:30:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 12:30:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 12:30:37 -0000 Received: from pool0104.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.104] helo=earthlink) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18Sz0J-0002ZK-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:26:47 -0800 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: Karmic Visions -- H P B Part II Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 04:21:52 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Part II KARMIC VISIONS ---------------- VII Another day is added to the series of buried days. The far green hills, and the fragrant boughs of the pomegranate blossom have melted in the mellow shadows of the night, and both sorrow and joy are plunged in the lethargy of soul-resting sleep. Every noise has died out in the royal gardens, and no voice or sound is heard in that overpowering stillness. Swift-winged dreams descend from the laughing stars in motley crowds, and landing upon the earth disperse among mortals and immortals, amid animals and men. They hover over the sleepers, each attracted by its affinity and kind; dreams of joy and hope, balmy and innocent visions, terrible and awesome sights seen with sealed eyes, sensed by the soul; some instilling happiness and consolation, others causing sobs to heave the sleeping bosom, tears and mental torture, all and one preparing unconsciously to the sleepers their waking thoughts of the morrow. Even in sleep the Soul-Ego finds no rest. Hot and feverish its body tosses about in restless agony. For it, the time of happy dreams is now a vanished shadow, a long bygone recollection. Through the mental agony of the soul, there lies a transformed man. Through the physical agony of the frame, there flutters in it a fully awakened Soul. The veil of illusion has fallen off from the cold idols of the world, and the vanities and emptiness of fame and wealth stand bare, often hideous, before its eyes. The thoughts of the Soul fall like dark shadows on the cogitative faculties of the fast disorganizing body, haunting the thinker daily, nightly, hourly. . . . The sight of his snorting steed pleases him no longer. The recollections of guns and banners wrested from the enemy; of cities razed, of trenches, cannons and tents, of an array of conquered spoils now stirs but little his national pride. Such thoughts move him no more, and ambition has become powerless to awaken in his aching heart the haughty recognition of any valourous deed of chivalry. Visions of another kind now haunt his weary days and long sleepless nights. . . . What he now sees is a throng of bayonets clashing against each other in a mist of smoke and blood: thousands of mangled corpses covering the ground, torn and cut to shreds by the murderous weapons devised by science and civilization, blessed to success by the servants of his God. What he now dreams of are bleeding, wounded and dying men, with missing limbs and matted locks, wet and soaked through with gore VIII A hideous dream detaches itself from a group of passing visions, and alights heavily on his aching chest. The night-mare shows him men, expiring on the battle field with a curse on those who led them to their destruction. Every pang in his own wasting body brings to him in dream the recollection of pangs still worse, of pangs suffered through and for him. He sees and feels the torture of the fallen millions, who die after long hours of terrible mental and physical agony; who expire in forest and plain, in stagnant ditches by the road-side, in pools of blood under a sky made black with smoke. His eyes are once more riveted to the torrents of blood, every drop of which represents a tear of despair, a heart-rent cry, a life-long sorrow. He hears again the thrilling sighs of desolation, and the shrill cries ringing through mount, forest and valley. He sees the old mothers who have lost the light of their souls; families, the hand that fed them. He beholds widowed young wives thrown on the wide, cold world, and beggared orphans wailing in the streets by the thousands. He finds the young daughters of his bravest old soldiers exchanging their mourning garments for the gaudy frippery of prostitution, and the Soul-Ego shudders in the sleeping Form. . . . His heart is rent by the groans of the famished; his eyes blinded by the smoke of burning hamlets, of homes destroyed, of towns and cities in smouldering ruins. . . . And in his terrible dream, he remembers that moment of insanity in his soldier's life, when standing over a heap of the dead and the dying, waving in his right hand a naked sword red to its hilt with smoking blood, and in his left, the colours rent from the hand of the warrior expiring at his feet, he had sent in a stentorian voice praises to the throne of the Almighty, thanksgiving for the victory just obtained! . . . . He starts in his sleep and awakes in horror. A great shudder shakes his frame like an aspen leaf, and sinking back on his pillows, sick at the recollection, he hears a voice--the voice of the Soul-Ego--saying in him:-- "Fame and victory are vainglorious words. . . . Thanksgiving and prayers for lives destroyed--wicked lies and blasphemy!" . . . . "What have they brought thee or to thy fatherland, those bloody victories!" whispers the Soul in him. "A population clad in iron armour," it replies. "Two score millions of men dead now to all spiritual aspiration and Soul-life. A people, henceforth deaf to the peaceful voice of the honest citizen's duty, averse to a life of peace, blind to the arts and literature, indifferent to all but lucre and ambition. What is thy future Kingdom, now? A legion of war-puppets as units, a great wild beast in their collectivity. A beast that, like the sea yonder, slumbers gloomily now, but to fall with the more fury on the first enemy that is indicated to it. Indicated, by whom? It is as though a heartless, proud Fiend, assuming sudden authority, incarnate Ambition and Power, had clutched with iron hand the minds of a whole country. By what wicked enchantment has he brought the people back to those primeval days of the nation when their ancestors, the yellow-haired Suevi, and the treacherous Franks roamed about in their warlike spirit, thirsting to kill, to decimate and subject each other? By what infernal powers has this been accomplished? Yet the transformation has been produced and it is as undeniable as the fact that alone the Fiend rejoices and boasts of the transformation effected. The whole world is hushed in breathless expectation. Not a wife or mother, but is haunted in her dreams by the black and ominous storm-cloud that overhangs the whole of Europe. The cloud is approaching. . . . . .It comes nearer and nearer Oh woe and horror! I foresee once more for earth the suffering I have already witnessed. I read the fatal destiny upon the brow of the flower of Europe's youth! But if I live and have the power, never, oh never shall my country take part in it again! No, no, I will not see- The glutton death gorged with devouring lives. . . . "I will not hear- . . . . . .robb'd mothers' shrieks While from men's piteous wounds and horrid gashes The lab'ring life flows faster than the blood! . . . ." IX Firmer and firmer grows in the Soul-Ego the feeling of intense hatred for the terrible butchery called war; deeper and deeper does it impress its thoughts upon the Form that holds it captive. Hope awakens at times in the aching breast and colours the long hours of solitude and meditation; like the morning ray that dispels the dusky shades of shadowy despondency, it lightens the long hours of lonely thought. But as the rainbow is not always the dispeller of the storm-clouds but often only a refraction of the setting sun on a passing cloud, so the moments of dreamy hope are generally followed by hours of still blacker despair. Why, oh why, thou mocking Nemesis, hast thou thus purified and enlightened, among all the sovereigns of this earth, him, whom thou hast made helpless, speechless and powerless? Why hast thou kindled the flame of holy brotherly love for man in the breast of one whose heart already feels the approach of the icy hand of death and decay, whose strength is steadily deserting him and whose very life is melting away like foam on the crest of a breaking wave? And now the hand of Fate is upon the couch of pain. The hour for the fulfillment of nature's law has struck at last. The old Sire is no more; the younger man is henceforth a monarch. Voiceless and helpless, he is nevertheless a potentate, the autocratic master of millions of subjects. Cruel Fate has erected a throne for him over an open grave, and beckons him to glory and to power. Devoured by suffering, he finds himself suddenly crowned. The wasted Form is snatched from its warm nest amid the palm groves and the roses; it is whirled from balmy south to the frozen north, where waters harden into crystal groves and "waves on waves in solid mountains rise"; whither he now speeds to reign and--speeds to die. X Onward, onward rushes the black, fire-vomiting monster, devised by man to partially conquer Space and Time. Onward, and further with every moment from the health-giving, balmy South flies the train. Like the Dragon of the Fiery Head, it devours distance and leaves behind it a long trail of smoke, sparks and stench. And as its long, tortuous, flexible body, wriggling and hissing like a gigantic dark reptile, glides swiftly, crossing mountain and moor, forest, tunnel and plain, its swinging monotonous motion lulls the worn-out occupant, the weary and heartsore Form, to sleep. . . . In the moving palace the air is warm and balmy. The luxurious vehicle is full of exotic plants; and from a large cluster of sweet-smelling flowers arises together with its scent the fairy Queen of dreams, followed by her band of joyous elves. The Dryads laugh in their leafy bowers as the train glides by, and send floating upon the breeze dreams of green solitudes and fairy visions. The rumbling noise of wheels is gradually transformed into the roar of a distant waterfall, to subside into the silvery trills of a crystalline brook. The Soul-Ego takes its flight into Dreamland. . . . It travels through aeons of time, and lives, and feels, and breathes under the most contrasted forms and personages. It is now a giant, a Yotun, who rushes into Muspelheim, where Surtur rules with his flaming sword. It battles fearlessly against a host of monstrous animals, and puts them to flight with a single wave of its mighty hand. Then it sees itself in the Northern Mistworld, it penetrates under the guise of a brave bowman into Helheim, the Kingdom of the Dead, where a Black-Elf reveals to him a series of its lives and their mysterious concatenation. "Why does man suffer?" enquires the Soul-Ego. "Because he would become one," is the mocking answer. Forthwith, the Soul-Ego stands in the presence of the holy goddess, Saga. She sings to it of the valorous deeds of the Germanic heroes, of their virtues and their vices. She shows the soul the mighty warriors fallen by the hands of many of its past Forms, on battlefield, as also in the sacred security of home. It sees itself under the personages of maidens, and of women, of young and old men, and of children. It feels itself dying more than once in those forms. It expires as a hero-Spirit, and is led by the pitying Walkyries from the bloody battlefield back to the abode of Bliss under the shining foliage of Walhalla. It heaves its last sigh in another form, and is hurled on to the cold, hopeless plane of remorse. It closes its innocent eyes in its last sleep, as an infant, and is forthwith carried along by the beauteous Elves of Light into an other body--the doomed generator of Pain and Suffering. In each case the mists of death are dispersed, and pass from the eyes of the Soul-Ego, no sooner does it cross the Black Abyss that separates the Kingdom of the Living from the Realm of the Dead. Thus "Death" becomes but a meaningless word for it, a vain sound. In every instance the beliefs of the Mortal take objective life and shape for the Immortal, as soon as it spans the Bridge. Then they begin to fade, and disappear. . . . "What is my Past?" enquires the Soul-Ego of Urd, the eldest of the Norn sisters. "Why do I suffer?" A long parchment is unrolled in her hand, and reveals a long series of mortal beings, in each of whom the Soul-Ego recognises one of its dwellings. When it comes to the last but one, it sees a blood-stained hand doing endless deeds of cruelty and treachery, and it shudders Guileless victims arise around it, and cry to Orlog for vengeance. "What is my immediate Present?" asks the dismayed Soul of Werdandi, the second sister. "The decree of Orlog is on thyself!" is the answer. "But Orlog does not pronounce them blindly, as foolish mortals have it." "What is my Future?" asks despairingly of Skuld, the third Norn sister, the Soul-Ego. "Is it to be for ever with tears, and bereaved of Hope?" . . . No answer is received. But the Dreamer feels whirled through space, and suddenly the scene changes. The Soul-Ego finds itself on a, to it, long familiar spot, the royal bower, and the seat opposite the broken palm-tree. Before it stretches, as formerly, the vast blue expanse of waters, glassing the rocks and cliffs; there, too, is the lonely palm, doomed to quick disappearance. The soft mellow voice of the incessant ripple of the light waves now assumes human speech, and reminds the Soul-Ego of the vows formed more than once on that spot. And the Dreamer repeats with enthusiasm the words pronounced before. "Never, oh, never shall I, henceforth, sacrifice for vainglorious fame or ambition a single son of my motherland! Our world is so full of unavoidable misery, so poor with joys and bliss, and shall I add to its cup of bitterness the fathomless ocean of woe and blood, called WAR? Avaunt, such thought! . . . Oh, never more. . . ." XI Strange sight and change. . . .The broken palm which stands before the mental sight of the Soul-Ego suddenly lifts up its drooping trunk and becomes erect and verdant as before. Still greater bliss, the Soul-Ego finds himself as strong and as healthy as he ever was. In a stentorian voice he sings to the four winds a loud and a joyous song. He feels a wave of joy and bliss in him, and seems to know why he is happy. He is suddenly transported into what looks a fairy-like Hall, lit with most glowing lights and built of materials, the like of which he had never seen before. He perceives the heirs and descendants of all the monarchs of the globe gathered in that Hall in one happy family. They wear no longer the insignia of royalty, but, as he seems to know, those who are the reigning Princes, reign by virtue of their personal merits. It is the greatness of heart, the nobility of character, their superior qualities of observation, wisdom, love of Truth and Justice, that have raised them to the dignity of heirs to the Thrones, of Kings and Queens. The crowns, by authority and the grace of God, have been thrown off, and they now rule by "the grace of divine humanity," chosen unanimously by recognition of their fitness to rule, and the reverential love of their voluntary subjects. All around seems strangely changed. Ambition, grasping greediness or envy--miscalled Patriotism--exist no longer. Cruel selfishness has made room for just altruism, and cold indifference to the wants of the millions no longer finds favour in the sight of the favoured few. Useless luxury, sham pretences--social and religious--all has disappeared. No more wars are possible, for the armies are abolished. Soldiers have turned into diligent, hard-working tillers of the ground, and the whole globe echoes his song in rapturous joy. Kingdoms and countries around him live like brothers. The great, the glorious hour has come at last! That which he hardly dared to hope and think about in the stillness of his long, suffering nights, is now realized. The great curse is taken off, and the world stands absolved and redeemed in its regeneration! . . . . Trembling with rapturous feelings, his heart overflowing with love and philanthropy, he rises to pour out a fiery speech that would become historic, when suddenly he finds his body gone, or, rather, it is replaced by another body. . . . Yes, it is no longer the tall, noble Form with which he is familiar, but the body of somebody else, of whom he as yet knows nothing. Something dark comes between him and a great dazzling light, and he sees the shadow of the face of a gigantic timepiece on the ethereal waves. On its ominous dial he reads: "NEW ERA: 970,995 YEARS SINCE THE INSTANTANEOUS DESTRUCTION BY PNEUMO-DYNO-VRIL OF THE LAST 2,000,000 OF SOLDIERS IN THE FIELD, ON THE WESTERN PORTION OF THE GLOBE. 971,000 SOLAR YEARS SINCE THE SUBMERSION OF THE EUROPEAN CONTINENTS AND ISLES. SUCH ARE THE DECREE OF ORLOG AND THE ANSWER OF SKULD. . . ." He makes a strong effort and--is himself again. Prompted by the Soul-Ego to REMEMBER and ACT in conformity, he lifts his arms to Heaven and swears in the face of all nature to preserve peace to the end of his days--in his own country, at least. ........... ... A distant beating of drums and long cries of what he fancies in his dream are the rapturous thanksgivings, for the pledge just taken. An abrupt shock, loud clatter, and, as the eyes open, the Soul-Ego looks out through them in amazement. The heavy gaze meets the respectful and solemn face of the physician offering the usual draught. The train stops. He rises from his couch weaker and wearier than ever, to see around him endless lines of troops armed with a new and yet more murderous weapon of destruction--ready for the battlefield. --SANJNA ( H P Blavatsky) Lucifer, June, 1888 _____ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Mon Dec 30 06:22:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 14:22:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 54306 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 14:22:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 14:22:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout1.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.20) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 14:22:56 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([62.0.144.180]) by mxout1.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) with SMTP id <0H7X00DLQRXRDY@mxout1.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:22:55 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:21:09 +0200 Subject: The Removal of Sanskaras, part one To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <000a01c2b00e$b3d7a4c0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal From: Etzion Becker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 X-Yahoo-Profile: etzion7398 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Copyright 2000 Avatar Meher Baba Perpetual Public=20 Charitable Trust, Ahmednagar, Kings Road, post bag #31. Maharashtra, Indi= a. All rights reserved These six Discourses are for personal use only. Etzion Becker =20 The word Sanskara means enslaving impressions which are being crystallized = in our subconscious minds and compel us to act and to reincarnate.=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 The Removal of Sanskaras Part I The Cessation, the Wearing Out, and the Unwinding of Sanskaras =20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 Human beings do not have Self-illumination because their consciousness= is shrouded in sanskaras, or the accumulated imprints of past experience. = In the human form the will-to-be-conscious with which evolution started has= succeeded in =20=20=20=20=20 Sanskaras prevent Self-illumination creating consciousness. However, unconsciousness does not arrive at th= e knowledge of the Oversoul because the individual soul is impelled to use = it for experiencing sanskaras instead of utilizing it for experiencing the = soul=92s own true nature as the Oversoul. The experiencing of sanskaras kee= ps it confined to the illusion of being a finite body trying to adjust itse= lf in the world of things and persons. Individual souls are like drops in the ocean. Just as each drop in th= e ocean is fundamentally identical with the ocean, the soul =96 which is in= dividualized due to bhas, or illusion =96 is still the Oversoul and does no= t really become separate from the =20=20=20=20=20 Problem of securing release from sanskaras Oversoul. Yet the envelope of sanskaras, by which consciousness is cov= ered, prevents the drop-soul from having Self-illumination and keeps it wit= hin the domain of duality. In order for the soul to consciously realize its= identity with the Oversoul, it is necessary that consciousness should be r= etained and that sanskaras should be entirely removed. The sanskaras, which= are contributory to the evolution of consciousness, themselves become impe= diments to its efficacy in illuminating the nature of the Oversoul. Hencefo= rth the problem with which the will-to-be-conscious is confronted is not th= at of evolving consciousness but that of releasing it from sanskaras. The release from sanskaras takes place in the following five ways: =20=20=20=20=20 Five ways of securing release from sanskaras 1. The cessation of creating new sanskaras. This consists in putting a= n end to the ever-renewing activity of creating fresh sanskaras. If the for= mation of sanskaras is compared to the winding of a string around a stick, = this step amounts to the cessation of the further winding of the string. 2. The wearing out of old sanskaras. If sanskaras are withheld from e= xpressing themselves in action and experience, they are gradually worn out.= In the analogy of the string, this process is comparable to the wearing ou= t of the string at the place where it is. 3. The unwinding of past sanskaras. This process consists in annullin= g past sanskaras by mentally reversing the process that leads to their form= ation. Continuing our analogy, it is like unwinding the string. 4. The dispersion and exhaustion of some sanskaras. If the mental ene= rgy that is locked up in sanskaras is sublimated and diverted into other ch= annels, they are dispersed and exhausted and tend to disappear. 5. The wiping out of sanskaras. This consists in completely annihilat= ing the sanskaras. In the analogy of the string, this is comparable to cutt= ing the string with a pair of scissors. The final wiping out of sanskaras c= an be effected only by the grace of a Perfect Master. It should be carefully noted that many of the concrete methods of und= oing sanskaras are found to be effective in more than one way, and the five= ways mentioned above are not meant to classify these methods into sharply = distinguished types. They represent rather the different principles charact= erizing the spiritual processes that take place while sanskaras are being r= emoved. For the sake of convenience, this Part will deal only with those me= thods that preeminently illustrate the first three principles (namely, the = cessation of creating fresh sanskaras and the wearing out and the unwinding= of past sanskaras). The methods that predominantly illustrate the last two= principles (the dispersion and exhaustion through sublimation of sanskaras= , and the wiping out of sanskaras) will be explained in Parts II and III. If the mind is to be freed from the bondage of ever-accumulating sans= karas, it is necessary that there should be an end to the creation of new s= anskaras. Fresh multiplication of sanskaras can be stopped through renuncia= tion. Renunciation =20=20=20=20=20 Renunciation may be external or internal. External, or physical, renunciation consi= sts in giving up everything to which the mind is attached-home, parents, ma= rriage, children, friends, wealth, comforts, and gross enjoyments. Internal= , or mental, renunciation consists in giving up all cravings, particularly = the craving for sensual objects. Though external renunciation in itself is not necessarily accompanied= by internal renunciation, it often paves a way for internal renunciation. = Spiritual freedom consists in internal renunciation and not in external ren= unciation, but external renunciation is a great aid in achieving internal r= enunciation. The person who renounces his possessions disconnects himself f= rom everything that he had or has. This means that the things he renounces = are no longer a source of fresh sanskaras. He thus takes an important step = toward emancipating himself from his sanskaras by putting an end to the pro= cess of forming new sanskaras. This is not all that is achieved through ext= ernal renunciation. With the renouncing of everything, he also renounces hi= s past bindings. The old sanskaras connected with his possessions get detac= hed from his mind; and since they are withheld from expressing themselves, = they get worn out. For most persons, external renunciation creates a favorable atmospher= e for the wearing out of sanskaras. An individual who possesses wealth and = power is exposed to a life of indulgence and extravagance. His circumstance= s are more favorable for temptations. Man is mostly what he becomes by bein= g chopped, chiseled, and shaped by the sculptor of environment. Whether or = not he can surmount his surroundings depends upon his strength of character= . If he is strong, he remains free in his thought and action, even in the m= idst of action and reaction with his environment. If he is weak, he succumb= s to its influence. Even if he is strong, he is likely to be swept off his = feet by a powerful wave of the collective mode of life and thought. It is d= ifficult to withstand the onslaught of a current of ideas and avoid falling= prey to circumstances. If he resists the circumstances, he is likely to be= carried away by some wild wave of collective passion and get caught up in = modes of thought that he is unable to renounce. Though it is difficult to r= esist and overcome these influences and surroundings, it is easier to escap= e from them. Many persons would live a chaste and straightforward life if t= hey were not surrounded by luxuries and temptations. The renunciation of al= l superfluous things helps the wearing out of sanskaras and is therefore co= ntributory to the life of freedom. The two important forms of external renunciation that have special sp= iritual value are solitude and fasting. Withdrawal of oneself from the stor= m and stress of the multifarious worldly activities and occasional retireme= nt into solitude are valuable =20=20=20=20=20 Solitude and fasting for wearing out the sanskaras connected with the gregarious instinct. = But this is not to be looked upon as a goal in itself. Like solitude, fasting also has great spiritual value. Eating is sati= sfaction; fasting is denial. Fasting is physical when food is not taken, in= spite of the craving for the enjoyment of eating; it is mental when food i= s taken not for its delights and attachments but merely for the survival of= the body. External fasting consists in avoiding direct contact with food i= n order to achieve mental fasting. Food is a direct necessity of life, and its continued denial is bound= to be disastrous to health. Therefore, external fasting should be periodic= al and only for a short time. It has to be continued till there is complete= victory over the craving for food. By bringing into action the vital force= s to withstand the craving for food, it is possible to free the mind from a= ttachment to food. External fasting has no spiritual value when it is under= taken with the motive of securing the health of the body or for the sake of= self-demonstration. It should not be used as an instrument for self-assert= ion. In the same way, it should not be carried to the extreme =96 until the= body is reduced to its limits. Self-mortification through prolonged fastin= g does not necessarily promote freedom from the craving for food. On the co= ntrary, it is likely to invite a subsequent reaction toward a life of extra= vagant indulgence in food. If, however, external fasting is undertaken in m= oderation and for spiritual purposes, it facilitates the achievement of int= ernal fasting. When external and internal fasting are wholehearted and fait= hful, they bring about the unwinding of the sanskaras connected with the cr= aving for food. The unwinding of many other sanskaras can be brought about through pe= nance. This consists in augmenting and expressing the feeling of remorse an= individual feels after realizing that he has done some wrongful act. Repen= tance consists in mentally =20=20=20=20=20 Penance reviving the wrongs with severe self-condemnation. It is facilitated b= y availing oneself of the different circumstances and situations that stir = up penance, or by remaining vulnerable during periods of emotional outburst= s, or by deliberate efforts to recall the past incidents with a remorseful = heart and acute disapproval. Such penance unwinds the sanskaras that are re= sponsible for the action. Self-condemnation accompanied by deep feeling can= negate the sanskaras of anger, greed, and lust. Suppose a person has done = irreparable wrong to someone through uncontrolled greed, anger, or lust. So= metime or other he is bound to have the reaction of self-killing remorse an= d experience the pricks of conscience. If at this time he vividly realizes = the evil for which he was responsible, the intensity of emotional awareness= by which it is accompanied consumes the tendencies for which he stands sel= f-condemned. Self-condemnation sometimes expresses itself through different forms = of self-mortification. Some aspirants even inflict wounds on their body whe= n they are in a mood of penitence, but such drastic expression of remorse m= ust be discouraged as a general usage. Some Hindu aspirants try to cultivat= e humility by making it a rule to fall at the feet of everyone whom they me= et. To those of strong will and stable character, penance can bring the des= ired good effect through self humiliation, which unwinds and eradicates the= different sanskaras connected with good and bad actions. Others who might = be feeble in their willpower also derive benefit from penance if they are u= nder sympathetic and loving direction. When penance is carefully nourished = and practiced, it inevitably results in the mental revocation of undesirabl= e modes of thought and conduct, and makes one amenable to a life of purity = and service. It should, however, be carefully noted that there is always the dange= r in penance that the mind might dwell too long upon the wrongs done and th= us develop the morbid habit of wailing and weeping over petty things. Such = sentimental extravagance is often an indiscriminate waste of energy and is = in no way helpful in the wearing out or the unwinding of sanskaras. Penance= should not be like the everyday repentance that follows everyday weaknesse= s. It should not become a tedious and sterile habit of immoderate and gloom= y pondering over one=92s own failings. Sincere penance does not consist in = perpetuating grief for the wrongs but in resolving to avoid in the future t= hose deeds that call forth remorse. If it leads to lack of self-respect or = self-confidence, it has not served its true purpose, which is merely to ren= der impossible the repetition of certain types of action. The wearing out and the unwinding of sanskaras can also be effected b= y denying to desires their expression and fulfillment. People differ in the= ir capacity and aptitude for rejecting desires. Those in whom desires arise= with great impulsive =20=20=20=20=20 Denying desires their fulfillment velocity are unable to curb them at their source, but they can refrain= from seeking their fulfillment through action. Even if someone has no cont= rol over the surging of desires, he can prevent them from being translated = into action. Rejection of desires by controlling actions avoids the possibi= lity of sowing seeds of future desires. On the other hand, if a person translates his desires into action, he= may spend up and exhaust some impressions. But he is creating fresh impres= sions during the very process of fulfilling the desires and is thus sowing = seeds for future desires, which in their turn are bound to demand their own= satisfaction. The process of spending up or exhausting impressions through= expression and fulfillment does not in itself contribute toward securing r= elease from sanskaras. When desires arise and their release into action is barred, there is = plenty of opportunity for spontaneous cogitation about these desires. This = cogitation results in the wearing out of the corresponding sanskaras. It sh= ould be noted, however, that such spontaneous cogitation does not bring abo= ut the desired result if it takes the form of mental indulgence in the desi= res. When there is a deliberate and wanton attempt to welcome and harbor th= e desires in the mind, such cogitation will not only have no spiritual valu= e but may itself be responsible for creating subtle sanskaras. Cogitation s= hould not be accompanied by any conscious sanction for the desires that ari= se in consciousness, and there should not be any effort to perpetuate the m= emory of these desires. When desires are denied their expression and fulfil= lment in action and are allowed to pass through the intensity of the fire o= f a cogitative consciousness that does not sanction them, the seeds of thes= e desires are consumed. The rejection of desires and the inhibition of phys= ical response effect, in time, an automatic and natural negation of the pas= t sanskaras. Rejection of desires is a preparation for desirelessness, or the stat= e of nonwanting, which alone can bring about true freedom. Wanting is neces= sarily binding, whether it is fulfilled or not. When it is fulfilled, it le= ads to further wanting and thus =20=20=20=20=20 Desirelessness perpetuates the bondage of the spirit. When it is unfulfilled, it lead= s to disappointment and suffering, which =96 through their sanskaras =96 fe= tter the freedom of the spirit in their own way. There is no end to wanting because the external and internal stimuli = of the mind are constantly alluring it into a state of wanting or disliking= (which is another form of wanting) something. The external stimuli are the= sensations of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. The internal stimul= i are those that arise in the mind of man from the memories of the present = life and the totality of sanskaras gathered by consciousness during the evo= lutionary period and during human lives. When the mind is trained to remain= unmoved and balanced in the presence of all external and internal stimuli,= it arrives at the state of nonwanting. And by not wanting anything (except= the absolute Reality, which is beyond the opposites of stimuli) it is poss= ible to unwind the sanskaras of wanting. Wanting is a state of disturbed equilibrium of mind, and nonwanting i= s a state of stable poise. The poise of nonwanting can only be maintained b= y an unceasing disentanglement from all stimuli whether pleasant or painful= , agreeable or =20=20=20=20=20 Poise of nonwanting and principle of neti neti disagreeable. In order to remain unmoved by the joys and sorrows of th= is world, the mind must be completely detached from the external and intern= al stimuli. Though the mind is constantly fortifying itself through its own= constructive suggestions, there is always the chance of these outposts of = defense being washed away by some sudden and unexpected wave arising in the= ocean of the natural and mental environment. When this happens you may, fo= r a time, feel completely lost; but the attitude of nonattachment can keep = you safe. This attitude consists in the application of the principle of neti ne= ti (not-this, not-this). It implies constant effort to maintain a watchful = detachment in relation to the alluring opposites of limited experience. It = is not possible to deny only the disagreeable stimuli and remain inwardly a= ttached to the agreeable stimuli. If the mind is to remain unmoved by the o= nslaughts of the opposites, it cannot continue to be attached to the expres= sions of agreeable stimuli and be influenced by them. The equipoise consist= s in meeting both alternatives with complete detachment. The =93yes, yes=94 meaning of the positive sanskaras can only be annu= lled through the negative assertion of =93no, no.=94 This negative element = is necessarily present in all aspects of asceticism, as expressed through r= enunciation, solitude, fasting, =20=20=20=20=20 Negative element in all aspects of asceticism penance, withholding desires from fulfillment, and nonwanting. The hap= py blending of all these methods and attitudes creates a healthy form of as= ceticism in which there is no toil or exertion. But to ensure all this, the= negative element in them must come naturally without giving rise to any pe= rversions or further limitations. Trying to coerce the mind to a life of asceticism is of no use. Any f= orcible adjustment of life on ascetic lines is likely to stunt the growth o= f some good qualities. When the healthy qualities of human nature are allow= ed to develop naturally and slowly, they unfold the knowledge of relative v= alues and thereby pave the way for a spontaneous life of asceticism. Wherea= s any attempt to force or hasten the mind toward an ascetic life is likely = to invite reaction. The process of being freed from some attachments is often accompanied= by the process of forming some other new attachments. The grossest form of= attachment is that which is directed toward the world of objects; but when= the mind is being detached from the world of objects, it has a tendency to= arrive at some finer attachments of a subjective kind. After the mind has = succeeded in cultivating a certain degree of detachment, it might easily de= velop that subtle form of egotism which expresses itself through aloofness = and a superior air. Detachment should not be allowed to form any nucleus up= on which the ego could fasten itself; and at the same time, it should not b= e an expression of one=92s inability to cope with the storm and stress of w= orldly life. The things that limit pure and infinite being should be given up =20=20=20=20=20 Negative sanskaras must also disappear before enlightenment through an attitude of immense strength, which is born of purity and e= nlightenment, and not from a sense of helplessness in the face of strife an= d struggle. Further, true detachment does not consist in clinging to the me= re formula of neti neti, which sometimes becomes an obsession of the mind w= ithout any deep-felt longing for enlightenment. Such interest in a mere for= mula of negation often exists side by side with an inward dwelling on the t= emptations. Detachment can be integral and wholehearted only when it become= s an inseparable part of one=92s nature. The negative assertion of =93no, no=94 is the only way of unwinding t= he positive sanskaras gathered through evolution and human lives. Although = this process does destroy the positive sanskaras, it results in the formati= on of the negative sanskaras, which in their own way condition the mind and= create a new problem. The assertion of =93no, no=94 has to be sufficiently= powerful to effect the eradication of all the physical, subtle, and mental= sanskaras; but after it has served its purpose, it has to be ultimately ab= andoned. The finality of spiritual experience does not consist of bare nega= tion. To bring it under a negative formula is to limit it by means of an in= tellectual concept. The negative formula has to be used by the mind to deco= ndition itself, but it must be renounced before the ultimate goal of life c= an be attained. Thought has to be made use of in order to overcome the limitations se= t up by its own movement; but when this is done, it has itself to be given = up. This amounts to the process of going beyond the mind, and this becomes = possible through nonidentification with the mind or its desires. To look ob= jectively upon the body, as well as all thoughts and lower impulses, is to = get established in blissful detachment and to negate all sanskaras. This me= ans freeing the soul from its self-imposed illusions-like =93I am the body,= =94 =93I am the mind,=94 or =93I am desire=94-and gaining ground toward the= enlightened stage of =93I am God=94 (=93Anal Haqq,=94 or =93Aham Brahmasmi= =94). =20=20=20=20=20 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Mon Dec 30 06:38:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 14:38:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 11484 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 14:38:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 14:38:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout3.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.24) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 14:38:47 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([62.0.144.180]) by mxout3.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) with SMTP id <0H7X00AV7SOFIZ@mxout3.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:38:46 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:37:09 +0200 Subject: The Removal of Sanskaras, part one To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <004201c2b010$f0833090$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal From: Etzion Becker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 X-Yahoo-Profile: etzion7398 Sorry, it came somewhat distorted Copyright 2000 Avatar Meher Baba Perpetual Public Charitable Trust, Ahmednagar, Kings Road, post bag #31. Maharashtra, India. All rights reserved These six Discourses are for personal use only. Etzion Becker The word Sanskara means enslaving impressions which are being crystallized in our subconscious minds and compel us to act and to reincarnate. The Removal of Sanskaras Part I The Cessation, the Wearing Out, and the Unwinding of Sanskaras Human beings do not have Self-illumination because their consciousness is shrouded in sanskaras, or the accumulated imprints of past experience. In the human form the will-to-be-conscious with which evolution started has succeeded in creating consciousness. However, unconsciousness does not arrive at the knowledge of the Oversoul because the individual soul is impelled to use it for experiencing sanskaras instead of utilizing it for experiencing the soul’s own true nature as the Oversoul. The experiencing of sanskaras keeps it confined to the illusion of being a finite body trying to adjust itself in the world of things and persons. Individual souls are like drops in the ocean. Just as each drop in the ocean is fundamentally identical with the ocean, the soul – which is individualized due to bhas, or illusion – is still the Oversoul and does not really become separate from the Oversoul. Yet the envelope of sanskaras, by which consciousness is covered, prevents the drop-soul from having Self-illumination and keeps it within the domain of duality. In order for the soul to consciously realize its identity with the Oversoul, it is necessary that consciousness should be retained and that sanskaras should be entirely removed. The sanskaras, which are contributory to the evolution of consciousness, themselves become impediments to its efficacy in illuminating the nature of the Oversoul. Henceforth the problem with which the will-to-be-conscious is confronted is not that of evolving consciousness but that of releasing it from sanskaras. The release from sanskaras takes place in the following five ways: Five ways of securing release from sanskaras 1. The cessation of creating new sanskaras. This consists in putting an end to the ever-renewing activity of creating fresh sanskaras. If the formation of sanskaras is compared to the winding of a string around a stick, this step amounts to the cessation of the further winding of the string. 2. The wearing out of old sanskaras. If sanskaras are withheld from expressing themselves in action and experience, they are gradually worn out. In the analogy of the string, this process is comparable to the wearing out of the string at the place where it is. 3. The unwinding of past sanskaras. This process consists in annulling past sanskaras by mentally reversing the process that leads to their formation. Continuing our analogy, it is like unwinding the string. 4. The dispersion and exhaustion of some sanskaras. If the mental energy that is locked up in sanskaras is sublimated and diverted into other channels, they are dispersed and exhausted and tend to disappear. 5. The wiping out of sanskaras. This consists in completely annihilating the sanskaras. In the analogy of the string, this is comparable to cutting the string with a pair of scissors. The final wiping out of sanskaras can be effected only by the grace of a Perfect Master. It should be carefully noted that many of the concrete methods of undoing sanskaras are found to be effective in more than one way, and the five ways mentioned above are not meant to classify these methods into sharply distinguished types. They represent rather the different principles characterizing the spiritual processes that take place while sanskaras are being removed. For the sake of convenience, this Part will deal only with those methods that preeminently illustrate the first three principles (namely, the cessation of creating fresh sanskaras and the wearing out and the unwinding of past sanskaras). The methods that predominantly illustrate the last two principles (the dispersion and exhaustion through sublimation of sanskaras, and the wiping out of sanskaras) will be explained in Parts II and III. If the mind is to be freed from the bondage of ever-accumulating sanskaras, it is necessary that there should be an end to the creation of new sanskaras. Fresh multiplication of sanskaras can be stopped through renunciation. Renunciation may be external or internal. External, or physical, renunciation consists in giving up everything to which the mind is attached-home, parents, marriage, children, friends, wealth, comforts, and gross enjoyments. Internal, or mental, renunciation consists in giving up all cravings, particularly the craving for sensual objects. Though external renunciation in itself is not necessarily accompanied by internal renunciation, it often paves a way for internal renunciation. Spiritual freedom consists in internal renunciation and not in external renunciation, but external renunciation is a great aid in achieving internal renunciation. The person who renounces his possessions disconnects himself from everything that he had or has. This means that the things he renounces are no longer a source of fresh sanskaras. He thus takes an important step toward emancipating himself from his sanskaras by putting an end to the process of forming new sanskaras. This is not all that is achieved through external renunciation. With the renouncing of everything, he also renounces his past bindings. The old sanskaras connected with his possessions get detached from his mind; and since they are withheld from expressing themselves, they get worn out. For most persons, external renunciation creates a favorable atmosphere for the wearing out of sanskaras. An individual who possesses wealth and power is exposed to a life of indulgence and extravagance. His circumstances are more favorable for temptations. Man is mostly what he becomes by being chopped, chiseled, and shaped by the sculptor of environment. Whether or not he can surmount his surroundings depends upon his strength of character. If he is strong, he remains free in his thought and action, even in the midst of action and reaction with his environment. If he is weak, he succumbs to its influence. Even if he is strong, he is likely to be swept off his feet by a powerful wave of the collective mode of life and thought. It is difficult to withstand the onslaught of a current of ideas and avoid falling prey to circumstances. If he resists the circumstances, he is likely to be carried away by some wild wave of collective passion and get caught up in modes of thought that he is unable to renounce. Though it is difficult to resist and overcome these influences and surroundings, it is easier to escape from them. Many persons would live a chaste and straightforward life if they were not surrounded by luxuries and temptations. The renunciation of all superfluous things helps the wearing out of sanskaras and is therefore contributory to the life of freedom. The two important forms of external renunciation that have special spiritual value are solitude and fasting. Withdrawal of oneself from the storm and stress of the multifarious worldly activities and occasional retirement into solitude are valuable for wearing out the sanskaras connected with the gregarious instinct. But this is not to be looked upon as a goal in itself. Like solitude, fasting also has great spiritual value. Eating is satisfaction; fasting is denial. Fasting is physical when food is not taken, in spite of the craving for the enjoyment of eating; it is mental when food is taken not for its delights and attachments but merely for the survival of the body. External fasting consists in avoiding direct contact with food in order to achieve mental fasting. Food is a direct necessity of life, and its continued denial is bound to be disastrous to health. Therefore, external fasting should be periodical and only for a short time. It has to be continued till there is complete victory over the craving for food. By bringing into action the vital forces to withstand the craving for food, it is possible to free the mind from attachment to food. External fasting has no spiritual value when it is undertaken with the motive of securing the health of the body or for the sake of self-demonstration. It should not be used as an instrument for self-assertion. In the same way, it should not be carried to the extreme – until the body is reduced to its limits. Self-mortification through prolonged fasting does not necessarily promote freedom from the craving for food. On the contrary, it is likely to invite a subsequent reaction toward a life of extravagant indulgence in food. If, however, external fasting is undertaken in moderation and for spiritual purposes, it facilitates the achievement of internal fasting. When external and internal fasting are wholehearted and faithful, they bring about the unwinding of the sanskaras connected with the craving for food. The unwinding of many other sanskaras can be brought about through penance. This consists in augmenting and expressing the feeling of remorse an individual feels after realizing that he has done some wrongful act. Repentance consists in mentally reviving the wrongs with severe self-condemnation. It is facilitated by availing oneself of the different circumstances and situations that stir up penance, or by remaining vulnerable during periods of emotional outbursts, or by deliberate efforts to recall the past incidents with a remorseful heart and acute disapproval. Such penance unwinds the sanskaras that are responsible for the action. Self-condemnation accompanied by deep feeling can negate the sanskaras of anger, greed, and lust. Suppose a person has done irreparable wrong to someone through uncontrolled greed, anger, or lust. Sometime or other he is bound to have the reaction of self-killing remorse and experience the pricks of conscience. If at this time he vividly realizes the evil for which he was responsible, the intensity of emotional awareness by which it is accompanied consumes the tendencies for which he stands self-condemned. Self-condemnation sometimes expresses itself through different forms of self-mortification. Some aspirants even inflict wounds on their body when they are in a mood of penitence, but such drastic expression of remorse must be discouraged as a general usage. Some Hindu aspirants try to cultivate humility by making it a rule to fall at the feet of everyone whom they meet. To those of strong will and stable character, penance can bring the desired good effect through self humiliation, which unwinds and eradicates the different sanskaras connected with good and bad actions. Others who might be feeble in their willpower also derive benefit from penance if they are under sympathetic and loving direction. When penance is carefully nourished and practiced, it inevitably results in the mental revocation of undesirable modes of thought and conduct, and makes one amenable to a life of purity and service. It should, however, be carefully noted that there is always the danger in penance that the mind might dwell too long upon the wrongs done and thus develop the morbid habit of wailing and weeping over petty things. Such sentimental extravagance is often an indiscriminate waste of energy and is in no way helpful in the wearing out or the unwinding of sanskaras. Penance should not be like the everyday repentance that follows everyday weaknesses. It should not become a tedious and sterile habit of immoderate and gloomy pondering over one’s own failings. Sincere penance does not consist in perpetuating grief for the wrongs but in resolving to avoid in the future those deeds that call forth remorse. If it leads to lack of self-respect or self-confidence, it has not served its true purpose, which is merely to render impossible the repetition of certain types of action. The wearing out and the unwinding of sanskaras can also be effected by denying to desires their expression and fulfillment. People differ in their capacity and aptitude for rejecting desires. Those in whom desires arise with great impulsive velocity are unable to curb them at their source, but they can refrain from seeking their fulfillment through action. Even if someone has no control over the surging of desires, he can prevent them from being translated into action. Rejection of desires by controlling actions avoids the possibility of sowing seeds of future desires. On the other hand, if a person translates his desires into action, he may spend up and exhaust some impressions. But he is creating fresh impressions during the very process of fulfilling the desires and is thus sowing seeds for future desires, which in their turn are bound to demand their own satisfaction. The process of spending up or exhausting impressions through expression and fulfillment does not in itself contribute toward securing release from sanskaras. When desires arise and their release into action is barred, there is plenty of opportunity for spontaneous cogitation about these desires. This cogitation results in the wearing out of the corresponding sanskaras. It should be noted, however, that such spontaneous cogitation does not bring about the desired result if it takes the form of mental indulgence in the desires. When there is a deliberate and wanton attempt to welcome and harbor the desires in the mind, such cogitation will not only have no spiritual value but may itself be responsible for creating subtle sanskaras. Cogitation should not be accompanied by any conscious sanction for the desires that arise in consciousness, and there should not be any effort to perpetuate the memory of these desires. When desires are denied their expression and fulfillment in action and are allowed to pass through the intensity of the fire of a cogitative consciousness that does not sanction them, the seeds of these desires are consumed. The rejection of desires and the inhibition of physical response effect, in time, an automatic and natural negation of the past sanskaras. Rejection of desires is a preparation for desirelessness, or the state of nonwanting, which alone can bring about true freedom. Wanting is necessarily binding, whether it is fulfilled or not. When it is fulfilled, it leads to further wanting and thus perpetuates the bondage of the spirit. When it is unfulfilled, it leads to disappointment and suffering, which – through their sanskaras – fetter the freedom of the spirit in their own way. There is no end to wanting because the external and internal stimuli of the mind are constantly alluring it into a state of wanting or disliking (which is another form of wanting) something. The external stimuli are the sensations of sight, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. The internal stimuli are those that arise in the mind of man from the memories of the present life and the totality of sanskaras gathered by consciousness during the evolutionary period and during human lives. When the mind is trained to remain unmoved and balanced in the presence of all external and internal stimuli, it arrives at the state of nonwanting. And by not wanting anything (except the absolute Reality, which is beyond the opposites of stimuli) it is possible to unwind the sanskaras of wanting. Wanting is a state of disturbed equilibrium of mind, and nonwanting is a state of stable poise. The poise of nonwanting can only be maintained by an unceasing disentanglement from all stimuli whether pleasant or painful, agreeable or Poise of nonwanting and principle of neti neti disagreeable. In order to remain unmoved by the joys and sorrows of this world, the mind must be completely detached from the external and internal stimuli. Though the mind is constantly fortifying itself through its own constructive suggestions, there is always the chance of these outposts of defense being washed away by some sudden and unexpected wave arising in the ocean of the natural and mental environment. When this happens you may, for a time, feel completely lost; but the attitude of nonattachment can keep you safe. This attitude consists in the application of the principle of neti neti (not-this, not-this). It implies constant effort to maintain a watchful detachment in relation to the alluring opposites of limited experience. It is not possible to deny only the disagreeable stimuli and remain inwardly attached to the agreeable stimuli. If the mind is to remain unmoved by the onslaughts of the opposites, it cannot continue to be attached to the expressions of agreeable stimuli and be influenced by them. The equipoise consists in meeting both alternatives with complete detachment. The “yes, yes” meaning of the positive sanskaras can only be annulled through the negative assertion of “no, no.” This negative element is necessarily present in all aspects of asceticism, as expressed through renunciation, solitude, fasting, penance, withholding desires from fulfillment, and nonwanting. The happy blending of all these methods and attitudes creates a healthy form of asceticism in which there is no toil or exertion. But to ensure all this, the negative element in them must come naturally without giving rise to any perversions or further limitations. Trying to coerce the mind to a life of asceticism is of no use. Any forcible adjustment of life on ascetic lines is likely to stunt the growth of some good qualities. When the healthy qualities of human nature are allowed to develop naturally and slowly, they unfold the knowledge of relative values and thereby pave the way for a spontaneous life of asceticism. Whereas any attempt to force or hasten the mind toward an ascetic life is likely to invite reaction. The process of being freed from some attachments is often accompanied by the process of forming some other new attachments. The grossest form of attachment is that which is directed toward the world of objects; but when the mind is being detached from the world of objects, it has a tendency to arrive at some finer attachments of a subjective kind. After the mind has succeeded in cultivating a certain degree of detachment, it might easily develop that subtle form of egotism which expresses itself through aloofness and a superior air. Detachment should not be allowed to form any nucleus upon which the ego could fasten itself; and at the same time, it should not be an expression of one’s inability to cope with the storm and stress of worldly life. The things that limit pure and infinite being should be given up Negative sanskaras must also disappear before enlightenment through an attitude of immense strength, which is born of purity and enlightenment, and not from a sense of helplessness in the face of strife and struggle. Further, true detachment does not consist in clinging to the mere formula of neti neti, which sometimes becomes an obsession of the mind without any deep-felt longing for enlightenment. Such interest in a mere formula of negation often exists side by side with an inward dwelling on the temptations. Detachment can be integral and wholehearted only when it becomes an inseparable part of one’s nature. The negative assertion of “no, no” is the only way of unwinding the positive sanskaras gathered through evolution and human lives. Although this process does destroy the positive sanskaras, it results in the formation of the negative sanskaras, which in their own way condition the mind and create a new problem. The assertion of “no, no” has to be sufficiently powerful to effect the eradication of all the physical, subtle, and mental sanskaras; but after it has served its purpose, it has to be ultimately abandoned. The finality of spiritual experience does not consist of bare negation. To bring it under a negative formula is to limit it by means of an intellectual concept. The negative formula has to be used by the mind to decondition itself, but it must be renounced before the ultimate goal of life can be attained. Thought has to be made use of in order to overcome the limitations set up by its own movement; but when this is done, it has itself to be given up. This amounts to the process of going beyond the mind, and this becomes possible through nonidentification with the mind or its desires. To look objectively upon the body, as well as all thoughts and lower impulses, is to get established in blissful detachment and to negate all sanskaras. This means freeing the soul from its self-imposed illusions-like “I am the body,” “I am the mind,” or “I am desire”-and gaining ground toward the enlightened stage of “I am God” (“Anal Haqq,” or “Aham Brahmasmi”). From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Dec 30 09:51:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 17:51:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 89628 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 17:51:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 17:51:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 17:51:52 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a493ec.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.236]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 1C2C4480A77 for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:51:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <004201c2b02b$353456a0$ec93a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <1041167793.632.69456.m12@yahoogroups.com> <001a01c2aff9$97c85000$8de1ba3f@zackl> Subject: Re: Theos-World Seven Rays and Religions Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:45:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, Hi Zack. Thanks for your answer. But, I was referring to the following sentence in the previous posted quote, which are shown in the below. Perhpas you just simply overlooked this: "Mohammedanism, which > > numbers so large a following, is also under sixth ray influence, but it > > is NOT a great root religion, being a hybrid offshoot of Christianity > > with the tinge of Judaism." (Esoteric Psychology I, p.167 - written by Alice A. Bailey (and/or Master D.K.)...) And Alice A. Baileys use of the word "NOT" in the above has been given (uppercase) emphasis by me ! My questions: So what are your comments on that Zack Lansdowne ? Do you agree with Alice A. Bailey (and/or Master D.K.) ? I certainly don't ! I almost get fierce when I see such claims supported these days with religious-political conflicts between the West and The Middle East! The religious-political implications certain Bailey-groups are creating by supporting such a view - and similar views - on Mohammedanism, will certainly not remain unoticed by the Masters of this planet, - today in our present international Information Society ! Such a claim as the one made by Alice A. Bailey (and/or Master D.K.) in the above can hardly create a positive atmosphere around United Nations and its Security Counsil, which, Lucis Trust and certain Bailey-groups in a certain sense are connected with, because of their affiliation with the United Nations ! I wonder what the great sufi Ibn El-Arabi would say to such a statement... The Quran was written using some of the 7 keys mentioned by Blavatsky - on an even higher level, (well I claim that, but I am certainly not the only one), than the silly book, some worship as - a God - and call - THE Bible. (A book, as Blavatsky has stated, - with more than 64.000 faults in it . A book still today a great number of people read - using the dead-letter and not the 7 keys. ) ! from M. Sufilight and the sufi called "The Green Guide" --- seeking to create peace on Earth...>:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zack Lansdowne" To: Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: Theos-World Seven Rays and Religions > M. Sufilight asked for comments regarding the following Bailey quotation: > > > Esoteric Psychology I, p.167 > > ******************** > > > > > > "Every great religion which arises is under the influence of one or other > of > > the rays, but it does not necessarily follow that each successive ray > > should have a great far-reaching religion as its outcome. We have heard > > that Brahmanism is the last great religion which arose under first ray > > influence; we do not know what may have been the religion which was the > > outcome of the last second ray period; but the Chaldean, the Egyptian > > and the Zoroastrian religions may be taken as representing the third, > > the fourth, and the fifth rays respectively. Christianity and probably > > Buddhism were the result of sixth ray influence. Mohammedanism, which > > numbers so large a following, is also under sixth ray influence, but it > > is NOT a great root religion, being a hybrid offshoot of Christianity > > with the tinge of Judaism." > > > > > > Although the typology of the seven rays is not mentioned very much on this > list, it is a typology that was developed during the past century by many > theosophical writers. This typology began with Blavatsky's "Secret > Doctrine," and was further developed by C. W. Leadbeater, Earnest Wood, > Geoffrey Hodson, as well as Alice Bailey. > > In particular, Bailey was not the only writer to associate the seven rays > with religions. C. W. Leadbeater, in "The Masters and the Path" (first > published in 1925 by the Theosophical Publishing House) provides the > following associations: first ray-- Brahmanical; second ray-- Buddhism; > third ray-- Chaldean; fourth ray-- Egyptian; fifth ray-- Zoroastrian; sixth > ray-- Christianity; and seventh ray-- Elemental Worship. > > Geoffrey Hodson, in "The Seven Human Temperaments" (first published in 1952 > by the Theosophical Publishing House) provides the following associations: > first ray-- Hinduism; second ray-- Buddhism; third ray-- Chaldean, Egyptian; > fourth ray-- Orphic, Egyptian; fifth ray-- Zoroastrian; sixth ray-- > Christian; seventh ray-- Ritualistic aspects of all religions, Masonry. > Note that Hodson lists "Egyptian" under both the third and fourth rays. > > While there are some agreements among Bailey's, Leadbeater's and Hodson's > associations, there are also some differences, which shows that these three > writers were independent and didn't simply copy each other. > > Zack Lansdowne > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Mon Dec 30 09:57:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 17:57:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 75571 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 17:57:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 17:57:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 17:57:00 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a493ec.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.236]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 50112480A7A for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:56:59 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <004b01c2b02b$ecee07a0$ec93a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB and after her Graphing the TRUTH ? Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:50:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, Yes. >:-) The best 'graph' is maybe the Akasha-library on a suitable level. There one can as the newspaper-boy say: "Read all about it!" But that 'graph' is rather formless, but even so not that far away, as one might think. >:-) from M. Sufilight with a 'graph' of a kind... ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "AA-B-Study" Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 1:23 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: HPB and after her Graphing the TRUTH ? > Dec 30 2002 > > Can the TRUTH be GRAPHED ? > > Dear Terrie: > > > You'll have to devise your own graphs. Don't be in a rush. It may > prove to be interesting work. Find out.. > > However, I would say: > > Quantitative information does not make it TRUE INFORMATION. Graphs > tend to show a tendency towards a pure result. They do not prove IT IS > PURE. > > Science makes use of graphs because there are some result influencing > "impurities" (of material, condition or environment) which cannot be > controlled. It is a kind of "short-cut." and indicates a tendency, > rather than an actuality. The Laws Of Mass Action take into account > counter-laws which cause individual atoms or molecules to oppose the > general tendency towards a predetermined result. Why they react that > way is not clear yet. Result is: INDETERMINACY. > > Theosophy says that individuality and self-determination even to the > atomic or sub-atomic levels is an indication of AN INTELLIGENCE that > has FREEDOM OF CHOICE even under the impact of universal laws. > > > TRUTH is TRUTH, and approximations are NOT TRUTH. There are no "grey" > areas. > > > That is one reason we all ought to call ourselves STUDENTS of > Theosophy. We are trying to learn the essentials and causes for what > we see all about us and about the events that come up and meet us as > we proceed in life. > > The designation THEOSOPHIST ought to be reserved for the Masters of > Wisdom. > > Best wishes, > > Dal > > ========================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: thalprin > Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 1:31 PM > To: > Subject: HPB and after her -- Graphing the Truth ? > > Dear Dallas, > > Thank you for the links and the reading suggestions. Myself, I am > curious and interested in trying to better understand how thangs > progressed, took shape, blossomed and plowed after HPB passed along. > In deed there does very much seem (as was expected) that many-varied > seeds sprouted from that planting and/or her efforts at gardening and > maintaining growth or fertile grounds. > > It'd be interesting to see it illustrated on a graph. Are there any > graphs? > > Have a BEAUTIFUL day, > Terrie > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Mon Dec 30 10:15:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 18:15:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 38394 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 18:15:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 18:15:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 18:15:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2002 18:15:00 -0000 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:14:56 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Unbiased Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3981 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson " X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.237 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Hi Terrie, Like you, I've always recoiled from most of the self-described Theosophical successors to HPB. You wrote: > > Over the years I've probably seen most of their titles, and, it is > always the same - I pick up the book, check the table of contents, > scan a few chapters for relative infos AND within a few minutes at > most I always just wanna put those books down. > > A.A.B's materials seem kind of religious to me and it is this feeling of her prescribing one's "daily life" that I find grating. And, Leadbeater, he creeps me out. Ditto, ditto. Which doesn't mean that we are both unbiased observers and those are objective assessments, but rather than the biases in Bailey and Leadbeater are flagrant and don't fit well with our own. I just hear that guy's name and I feel > ucky! Helena Roerich, really, I never get passed her photos, she > reminds me of the lady DeVille for 101 dalmations - she freaks me > out! And, I always think: "Man! I wouln't wanna run into her on a > dark road at night"! Never saw her pictures, share the "creeped out" feeling from the writings. BUT-- Olcott, I never know who he is, and, I'm never > sure what he's actually saying or talking about. Many including myself find his authorial voice relaxed and engaging, clear and understandable. After a few readings one begins to notice the spin-doctor aspect, but still he's fun to read and perhaps you haven't given him enough of a chance. Krishnamurti, well, > that whole situation just makes me too sad. > I would agree that the situation surrounding him inspires sadness, but hardly think that a reason to avoid reading about it. After all, the Theosophical motto is "no religion [dharma] higher than truth" and Krishnamurti is the heart of 20th century Theosophical experience. Not "no religion higher than what makes me feel comfortable." > The thing I like about HPB's works is that there is clear minded and relative information on each and every page. She did very well > combine/solidify/cross-correlate maths, philosophy, mythology, > science, language, history and symbol. These are the subjects that > are of interest to me AND I am not much interested in > agendas/pursuits bent of another nature of understanding nor single > focus/insight or inclination. I think/feel that HPB's materials are a worldly, enlightening and unbias resourse While regarding HPB's writings as vastly superior to those other authors you name, I would caution anyone against proclaiming what rings their personal chimes as therefore being an "unbiased resource." AND that what she has > written is in fact a tremendous accumulation of reason and wisdom AND quite a respectable gift to have accomplished/offered on up - it's an inspiration, even today. So, it's useful and it's practical, abiding as value does AND when I look in her eyes I see a seeker of truth AND I feel wisdom, trial and love. When I read her works I see/feel understanding and experience AND the effort/search to be as open and honest, thorough and direct as one can possibly be. > > Sincerely, I can identify with that sentiment, but would say "Yes, and..." that's not the only effort observable in her writings. Nor are the other efforts necessarily compatible with that effort. If you perceive only someone trying to be as open and honest and direct as possible, while others perceive only one of the biggest liars in history, maybe that deserves to be explored beyond the either/or dichotomy that so many Theosophists and skeptics find so satisfying. But mainly I just want to issue a caution against the "I like it, I agree with it, therefore it's unbiased" line of thought. All readers have biases and they evaluate books according to them. All authors have biases which can be either accurately perceived, misperceived, or unperceived by their readers. Cheers, Paul PS-- Purucker is worth checking out if you haven't yet. From wry1111@earthlink.net Mon Dec 30 11:14:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 19:14:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 74391 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 19:14:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 19:14:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 19:14:48 -0000 Received: from 1cust59.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.59] helo=idapingala) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18T5N3-0003HB-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:14:42 -0800 Message-ID: <002301c2b037$d11e29e0$3bd30b3f@idapingala> To: References: Subject: Theosophy and Mesmerism Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:15:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi. At different periods of history, knowledge needs to be released in different ways to accomplish different effects, and this is not to imply that the so called "knowledge" of Madame Blavatsky was or was not genuine. It would be hard for someone like you (or me) to verify this. If a person uses reasoning, such as. "the bible is the word of God," and I ask, "how do you know this," and he answers, "because it says in the bible that the bible is the work of God," this is called CIRCULAR reasoning. In some ways, I see you doing this, It is obvious to me that if theosophy is a dwindling movement and is losing members, especially when there is a world-wide renewal of interest in the kind of material that theosophy covers, there must be a reason. I know you are sincere, but you make certain assumptions which are a little naive. If real knowledge could be obtained from studying a book, we would all have it by now, as such knowledge would come with its own payoff, which would be very profound. It is possible for a person to live in a fantasy land in which he dreams he is immortal and possesses certain knowledge. I would not want to encourage such a view, as this leads to great human suffering, but I believe that to a certain extent, Madame Blavatsky's writing does encourage this. A few theopsophists I have encountered are very well-balanced, but, in my opinion, the kind of people who get hooked into only the emotional or only the intellectual aspect of this material (which is many) will never develop the cutting edge of genuine impartiality, the pure data of which, will lead to the maturation of a genuine human soul. I am willing to go into this in much greater detail, and in order to do so I will not need to, as an "authority," resort to the so-called "authority" of another person's words, as I am quite able to articulately express any concepts I am dealing with in my own words, and what I do not know or understand, I can express as a question. One basic flaw of Madame Blavatsky's writing, is that her work is so verbose, filled with minutia, and repetitive details that it encourage the reader to lapse into a MESMERIZED state in which certain strong and very pleasurable affects can easily be created (induced) in the reader. This is actually very interesting, and it may be worthy to consider if this was done deliberately. If so, ( and I am going to study this further, when I get a chance and let you all know my conclusion), this could explain why certain people are affected so strongly by certain material they have read, and this would at least indicate that she had some very real knowledge about hypnotism. If she did do this, I do not see it as necessarily bad or wrong, but as problematic, and something we will eventually need to sort out in order to get to genuine clarity. I believe this human being to have had certain real knowledge which she presented in such a way as to achieve a certain effect she was deliberately attempting to accomplish. She really was extraordinary in a lot of ways. This is in no way to suggest that the form this knowledge was presented in and even her aim would be the same that it would be if she were alive today. Since you do not seem to have even an inkling of the meaning of the concept of "time-appropriate" in regard to spiritual teaching, I suggest that if you ponder this idea further, you will easily be able to get a grasp of its meaning and make some sense of it. It seems to me that this is an important and even a key idea to understand for anyone who has a genuine motivation to help relieve as many people as possible from their suffering.. I am not trying to disrupt your personal spiritual agenda or tear apart the meaning of this group, but rather to participate in such a way that will help produce a meaning that is richer as well as clearer. I have said I am from a very unusual and select society of which Madame Blavatsky was a member, and I am therefore qualified to speak for her, as she spoke as a representative of this society, and she is no longer alive. There is no way to know for a fact if what I say is true or not unless one has the CRITERION (base of knowledge) which is required to evaluate this, and it is actually a fact that most people will believe anything that has to do with honey or candy and disbelieve anything that does not. But what if suffering of a certain kind and quality has to do with honey of a certain kind and quality? Here is some food for "think-feel" as one member of this group might put it, and also something for the simple sensation of the "I am," so that we can start to digest material more actively in such a way that the end result is becomes harmonized. Sincerely, Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 4:19 AM Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: HPB and after her -- some T S history > Dec 29 2002 > > Dear Wry: > > On what basis would the philosophy of theosophy (which is a history of > our evolutionary progress) be redesigned? > > I don't get it Why would tinkering be needed? > > Most students haven't read or studied THEOSOPHY as they ought to. > > So discussions of that nature ought to be set aside until there is > real knowledge to use and discuss with. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > ============= > > -----Original Message----- > From: wry [mailto:wry1111@earthlink.net] > Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 6:18 PM > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; AA-B-Study > Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB and after her -- some T S history > > Hi. Perhaps the kind of very small talk, political arguing, arguing in > general, nitpicking, looking back at little inconsequential details > from the > past and analyzing them etc. is a result of the condition of the > theosophy > movement at the present time. I have not seen anything quite like the > bickering on theosophy lists on any other lists I have been on that > are of > about this size. Generally speaking, though not always, people can get > along > and stay pretty focused. I am not saying that this is necessarily > true, but > perhaps theosophy, as it was originally presented, is no longer > time-appropriate. Things have moved very fast in the last hundred plus > years. This is worthy of enquiry. I believe if Madame Blavatsky were > alive, > she would redesign her whole teaching. > > There is not enough real enquiry on here, though I have seen some. In > any > case, learning needs to be set up so that it is a constant discovery. > In > this way there is joy and not authority and dullness. With joyful > learning, > there is the rapture of a constant opening and a constant dying. We > will not > have time to worry about immortality. In my opinion this kind of talk > of > immortality that some have been doing is not only a belief, but it is > an > oxymoron, as it serves no function. In love, there is a constant dying > to > the old. When everything is always new, it will be clean again, and > many > people can be helped. This is my genuine opinion, and I am even afraid > to > speak this on here, which is sad. > > This message is not about you and your behavior, necessarily, but I > use it > to link to, as it has brought again to my mind an interesting > question, > which I have pondered many, many hours: the time-appropriateness of > this > particular teaching in the form it is now being presented. Sincerely, > Wry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "AA-B-Study" > Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 5:01 PM > Subject: Theos-World RE: HPB and after her -- some T S history > > > > Dec 28 2002 > > > > Dear T: > > > > As I understand it these lists and "chat-groups" are formed to > discuss > > the philosophy of theosophy. Occasionally matters of event and > > history arise. They are best resolved on documents and the > statements > > made originally by those concerned. Unfortunately, some > correspondents > > rely too much on memory, and not on facts that can be checked by any > > one concerned. This causes confusion and debate that it quite > > unnecessary. > > > > Much as I dislike going into the "history of the T S," some things > are > > in plain sight. And while they have nothing to do with the validity > > of THEOSOPHY, they are snags that draw attention away from the > > PHILOSOPHY. As such they ought to be laid to rest and there let > lie. > > > > We have at least two very good histories that concern H P B (apart > > from her own letters), and accounts made by others who lived around > > her and were witnesses to various events, the first which I have > > personally verified from documentary, primary sources is > > > > The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875-1950) (300+ pages) & 6.00 > > > > Sylvia Cranston's biography THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE AND INFLUENCE OF > > HELENA BLAVATSKY -- Tarcher/Putnam, New York, 1993 & 30.00 [ > > Recently the 9th printing in paper back has been issued, price > about > > $ 12.00.] > > > > But, however interesting, they do not seem to teach anything except > to > > those who already know of the philosophy and of the inner planes of > > being and of will force, that are active and visible at times. They > > are distractions and obstructions for the average student or > > researcher. > > > > The horse riding accident I recall mention of, as H P B speaks of it > > (see p. 30 of Sylvia Cranston's biography THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE AND > > INFLUENCE OF HELENA BLAVATSKY -- Tarcher/Putnam, New York, 1993.) > By > > some "miracle" (Masters' help) she went through it unharmed. The > > nature of any wounds then received, I never have seen mentioned or > > described. I find that many people try to trivialize important > things > > by referring to events in the personal life of a teacher or > messenger. > > And they derive their own fanciful conclusions -- to the future > > distraction of readers like you and me, who wonder, and then seek to > > verify the facts. > > > > You will find that sceptics accumulate around every great reformer > > AFTER their death, and begin speculating about physical reasons for > > their (the reader or pupil's) lack of understanding -- as though > such > > a deficiency (in their eyes only) was good reason to doubt anything > > offered or taught. The two things are not congruent. > > > > Some, truly inimical, depending on the prevailing like for "gossip," > > emphasize, or magnify such events and criticism, as though the dust, > > thus blown, will be made to becloud and surround the subject -- and > > these imaginings and theories project themselves into the mental > > processes of others. Researchers like you and me, desire a clear > view > > of what was originally done or said. They call attention to small > > details, and to "errors" which they say they have found, and set > > themselves up as editors and authorities. Are we to believe them > > without any checking ? Do they provide adequate references for > their > > views? > > > > You will find that most of the "splits" and sectarianism in > religious > > "belief" (NOT KNOWLEDGE) arises because certain individuals (WHO DO > > NOT STUDY THOROUGHLY) accept those authorities; and having done so, > > they refuse to do the necessary individual study to verify (or not) > > the views divergent from those of the original teacher. "Belief" is > > the most dangerous of weapons used against the clear thinking of > > individuals. When they accept they become slaves. > > > > The Theosophical Society (not THEOSOPHY, as a philosophy), right > after > > H P B's death began to do this. Members began to drift into > seperative > > ranks of believers of this or that. The attempt at Unity was > > gradually destroyed. You can see its dire effects today among those > > who call themselves "theosophists." [ No one, except the Masters > of > > Wisdom, deserve that appellation.] > > > > Mr. Judge (for whom H P B spoke in the highest terms) was the first > > attacked. Thereafter a Man named Leadbeater (in England and at > Adyar) > > set himself up to make changes and develop Theosophy into several > > areas, where it would meet with some approval from those who did not > > study, but wanted a cozy nook of belief. > > > > I say that any one who is familiar with H P B Theosophy will > > immediately detect the divergences of Leadbeater "theosophy." But > > there were those who though much of it, starting with Annie Besant. > > She however, waited till Col. Olcott died in 1907 to bring this into > > prominence. > > > > Mr. Judge and the whole American THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY section was > > "excommunicated" by Col. Olcott ( First President T S for LIFE) in > > July 1995. Thus the T S in A. sailed its own ship and after Judge > > died in March 1996, under various Presidents it developed its own > > minor divergent views based on their perception of the original > > teachings. > > > > Emerging from this in 1909, was the UNITED LODGE OF THEOSOPHISTS -- > it > > rejected all novelty or belief, and emphasized (and still does) a > > careful study of the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS of H P B. It pioneered the > > reprinting of the original texts books either by a photographic > > process, or by verbatim editions in carefully re-set type. It has a > > high regard for the Judge writings not just because of H P B's > > endorsement, but because of their inherent worth. > > > > As an association, it has no membership as such. It is sustained by > > "associates" -- volunteers who for the past 90 years have > supported > > it by donations of time, money and work. It places the direct > > relationship of the inquirer / student to the Original Teachings of > H > > P B as the most important part of their learning experience. Each > > such associate determines for themselves their own rate of progress. > > Each takes entire responsibility for their own decisions. > > > > In the final analysis, no opinion of any kind is worth the hot air, > or > > the printing used in publishing it. > > > > New students have, each, to go through the laborious job of proving > > for themselves the value of anything said or written. Only those > who > > desire, because of impatience (or laziness), a short-cut, and choose > > the "authority" of another to rely on, find themselves cornered when > > asked for the logic of their choices. They cannot defend > themselves. > > Reference to original sources strips them of any "hiding place," or > > individual on which they can place blame for their own shortcomings. > > > > Those who have studied, learned and satisfied themselves as to the > > real value of THEOSOPHY, point to the original teachings, and are > > able to show how Theosophy is a coherent and consecutive statement > of > > the actual observations made by a band of immortal SPIRITUALLY WISE > > SAGES who have participated in the evolution of our Earth and > Kosmos, > > and who have recorded their observations of the laws (KARMA -- as it > > operates everywhere). (S D I 272-3 ) > > > > There is nothing that increases or diminishes statements except > their > > own inherent worth. And this has to be individually proved by each > > sincere and honest student for themselves. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > Dallas > > > > =========================== > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: T > > Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 > > To: dalval14@earthlink.net > > Subject: HPB > > > > Dear Dallas, > > > > Wow! What an interesting conversation folks are > > having on Theos. HPB would probably get a good laugh > > out of this! > > > > I think if you check through the books you all can > > find some reference to her having a severe horseback > > riding accident when she was a young woman that left > > her in a position wherein (from there) intimate > > relations where sadly just too painful to participate > > in (as well as a couple of health concerns for which, > > from time to time she self medicated) AND wasn't it > > that high fever/illness that she had as a childe that > > resulted in her most probably being sterile through > > never truly finding out since the act of love making > > ripped her up a bit. > > > > Sincerely, > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bartl@sprynet.com Mon Dec 30 11:43:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 19:43:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 91144 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 19:43:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 19:43:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 19:43:28 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-094-121.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.94.121] helo=sprynet.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18T5ot-0006ex-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:43:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3E10A165.201E0341@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:41:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy and Mesmerism References: <002301c2b037$d11e29e0$3bd30b3f@idapingala> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 wry wrote: > It is obvious to me that if theosophy is a dwindling movement and is > losing members, especially when there is a world-wide renewal of > interest in the kind of material that theosophy covers, there must be a > reason. True. But that doesn't mean that all possible reasons are correct. For example, there is also a growth of movements that derive from Theosophy, but market themselves to people's emotions rather than intellect, and make all sorts of promises that the Theosophical Society cannot make, such as enlightenment in this lifetime, or if you follow the precepts of the organization, you will have "good karma" which will translate into material wealth in this lifetime. Look up, for example, Gresham's Law, and realize that it applies to knowledge as well as gold. > I know you are sincere, but you make certain assumptions which are a > little naive. If real knowledge could be obtained from studying a book, > we would all have it by now, as such knowledge would come with its own > payoff, which would be very profound. The number of people who are gulled by con artists using well-documented scams demonstrates that your assumption is wrong. Hell, the fact that the gambling industry is as large as it is demonstrates that your assumption is wrong. Bart From kpauljohnson@yahoo.com Mon Dec 30 12:45:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: kpauljohnson@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 20:45:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 18828 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 20:45:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 20:45:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 20:45:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.182] by n28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2002 20:45:45 -0000 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:45:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Unbiased Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3613 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "kpauljohnson " X-Originating-IP: 166.67.150.237 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=85941729 X-Yahoo-Profile: kpauljohnson Hi again, Here's a definition with some synonyms, from Roget online: >ADJECTIVE: 1. Free from bias in judgment: disinterested, dispassionate, equitable, fair, fair-minded, impartial, indifferent, just, nonpartisan, objective, square, unprejudiced. Idioms: fair and square. See FAIR. 2. Not inclining toward or actively taking either side in a matter under dispute: impartial, neuter, neutral, nonaligned, nonpartisan, uncommitted, uninvolved, unprejudiced. Idioms: on the fence. See FAIR. END QUOTE With all due respect to HPB, the above just doesn't sound a bit like her. She'd be a lot less interesting if it did. You commented: > > clear and understandable. After a few readings one begins to > notice the spin-doctor aspect, but still he's fun to read and perhaps you haven't given him enough of a chance. > > Perhaps, it is that very "spin" that doesn't suit me Dearie. > Well, no one here is trying to tell anyone what to read or what not to read and the above was phrased as the gentlest of nudges in the direction of giving him a second chance. Your response sounds rather bristling and offended so never mind. But for anyone else reading-- Old Diary Leaves is colorful and entertaining, but of course is one man's recollections and self-serving as memoirs often (always?) are. Especially the first volume is recommended for anyone interested in HPB's writings as useful background material. > > > > experience. Not "no religion higher than what makes me feel > > comfortable." > > Yes, you're busy making/assessing some general assumptions I see - > really, it feels judgemental to me. Is this your intent? > Sure, but not of you personally. I spend a huge amount of my time deciding how to spend limited public funds on books. It's a constant juggling act, and judgment is exactly what it's about. How many books should I buy that deal with painful and difficult and challenging issues, and how many that simply entertain, inform and inspire without pushing any such buttons? (Replace "buy" with "read" in the above sentence and the issue becomes a more personal one.) Krishnamurti isn't a "feel good author" but is an important one for truthseekers interested in Theosophy. That's my judgment. > one of listening to/for my own intuitions AND learning/acting > respectful about them. I actually have care/respect for brother K. > but I doubt I will read his works which is entirely my choice - none-the-less I'm sorry if this somehow bothers you - the choices that I make for myself. > It's my business to worry about what people read and why, and I'm experienced enough to know not to recommend Nietzche to lovers of Barbara Cartland. But I had gathered, perhaps incorrectly, that you were interested in *discussing* the pros and cons of various authors in the Theosophical literature. It bothers me in the abstract that *anyone* would deliberately exclude Krishnamurti from their list of authors to read, citing the sadness of his story. But of course it doesn't bother me what any specific individual reads and why, and I intended no personal insult in recommending that you rethink your avoidance of him. > > While regarding HPB's writings as vastly superior to those other > > authors you name, I would caution anyone against proclaiming what > > rings their personal chimes as therefore being an "unbiased > > resource." > > Interesting thang to say, and, yet, clearly slanted/biased in it's > opinion :) - that's funny! You make me laugh! > Glad you found something enjoyable in the post. Regards, Paul From teos9@aol.com Mon Dec 30 13:33:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 21:33:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 89146 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 21:33:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 21:33:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 21:33:26 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.12a.1eb724e1 (25305) for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:33:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <12a.1eb724e1.2b4215a1@aol.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:33:21 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Unbiased To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 From: teos9@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=31608821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/30/2002 1:17:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, kpauljohnson@yahoo.com writes: > But mainly I just want to issue a caution against the "I like it, I > agree with it, therefore it's unbiased" line of thought. All readers > have biases and they evaluate books according to them. All authors > have biases which can be either accurately perceived, misperceived, > or unperceived by their readers. > Hello Paul, Let's not leave out, that all readers, students and writers ALSO have varying degrees of intuitive acumen, as well as, an ever evolving conscious awareness. Added to the built in biases you mention above, the whole question of interpreting value, if not, TRUTH, from a given work becomes extremely difficult. When everything is said and done, the exercise becomes extremely subjective, with only ones level of intuitive development, to guide them. In my opinion, the best of our theosophical writers, are so, because their work contains the best expression of their intuitive natures. The best of our theosophical READERS and INTERPERTERS are so, because of their ability to engage these written works with the cutting edge of their own intuitive nature. However one wants to define the core of our perennial philosophy (theosophy +++), that definition must include the notion of involutionary/evolutionary movement of consciousness. That said, how does one pick out any work as a definitive "best" to the exclusion of all others. Methinks, we are back to chocolate and vanilla. Best, Louis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Dec 30 14:30:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 22:30:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 32628 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 22:30:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 22:30:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 22:30:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.180] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2002 22:30:24 -0000 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:30:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Orthomolecular psychiatry and the scientific study of hermaphroditism Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3349 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 65.56.127.33 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Dear BAG: I read your paper. Intensely interesting, and it certainly did fill in a gap in my education which was left by the classes I took at the university. Something very similar to what you have written about is the controversy over the orthomolecular approach to the treatment of mental disorders. The orthomolecular school of psychiatry disputes the mainstream assumption that there is no medically identifiable underlying condition. I have a textbook here on the orthomolecular treatment of schizophrenia which names some of the medical conditions which are believed to underlie schizophrenia symptoms and which lists the blood tests orthomolecular psychiatrists use to determine an appropriate treatment protocol. An orthomolecular treatment has to be tailored to the specific patient based on blood chemistry. Mainstream psychiatrists diagnose this condition using the criteria in the DSM IV, which are entirely behavioral and use essentially the same protocol for every patient. Another difference between the two is that the orthomolecular psychiatrist, having diagnosed the medical problem, treats it using a protocol which may not include the use of legally controlled substances (i.e., antipsychotic drugs.) Financially, the ability to control access to these substances is the physician's ace in the hole, which makes some cynics think that business, and not medical, considerations may be the reason this division within the psychiatric community exists. The contention of some psychiatrists that orthomolecular psychiatry is some sort of quackery seems to be mooted by the fact that patients treated this way have in some cases have recovered from disorders which are known to be incurable. It was known from the fifties that ulcers were caused by a bacterium, but the condition was treated until a few years ago using prescription drugs which controlled the symptoms, but did not deal with the underlying causes. Now that ulcers are treated with a simple antibiotic, the drugs which were formerly used and which could be obtained only by prescription, were immediately reclassified as over the counter drugs and are no longer controlled. In his book on investing, Peter Lynch made the interesting observation that maintaining people in a state of profitable illness and not curing anything could be (he thought) the medical wave of the future. He referred specifically to ulcer treatment, and it appears he was wrong. Lynch's analysis of the politics seems to be simplistic, but that politics and business considerations sometimes figure in the dislocation between the current state of scientific knowledge and the current state of practice seems to be self evident. That such a dislocation exists in the area of interest to you seems to be the thesis of your paper, so you might find it interesting that it appears to exist in other areas as well. The science may be there, in other words, but if it merely supports the patient's health, and not the profession's financial health, there may be a temptation to dismiss such inconvenient science for several decades. There was a study of cancer patients a few years ago which reportedly concluded that a dead patient was worth multiple times more money to the profession than one whose illness went into remission. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Dec 30 14:41:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 22:41:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 79052 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 22:41:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 22:41:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 22:41:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.188] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Dec 2002 22:41:45 -0000 Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:41:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Unbiased Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 917 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 65.56.127.33 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "kpauljohnson " wrote: > Ditto, ditto. Which doesn't mean that we are both unbiased observers > and those are objective assessments, but rather than the biases in > Bailey and Leadbeater are flagrant and don't fit well with our own. I agree and would add that in the case of Bailey and Leadbeater textual and historical criticism seem to offer objective ways of evaluating their claims and finding them rawtha questionable. That may be true of all of them, though, in which case the "bias" effect is one of where one sets the limin at which one dismisses te author. Sinnett, for example, is relatively more cfredivle, and therefore does not trip over my individual limin, whereas Bailey does and Leadbester for sure does. An anti-Theosophist (I don't think we have any on this list anymore) may just have a much lower limin. From samblo@cs.com Mon Dec 30 14:48:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 30 Dec 2002 22:48:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 7090 invoked from network); 30 Dec 2002 22:48:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 30 Dec 2002 22:48:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r08.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.104) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 30 Dec 2002 22:48:22 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.153.199eec91 (26116) for ; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:48:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <153.199eec91.2b422732@cs.com> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:48:18 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy and Mesmerism To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Lol, Maybe we need a contemporary "Buddhi" holding a Lollipop in one hand, and "Sour Grapes" in the other. John From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Mon Dec 30 16:36:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 31 Dec 2002 00:36:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 85247 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2002 00:36:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2002 00:36:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2002 00:36:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2002 00:36:54 -0000 Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:36:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Orthomolecular psychiatry and the scientific study of hermaphroditism Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 7022 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.224 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn Dear Steve, Thanks for your response. There is in fact a huge global medical ethics debate going on regarding the prevalent and increasing existence and the proper 'treatment' of intersexed persons. In my Sex Differentiation report (see my Topical Index), I list some of the most common forms of animal and same mechanism-related forms of human intersex. One of the most troubling medical ethics issues involved is the standard performance of sex-change surgery on intersexed infants and very young children. The doctors guessing what a child's sex and gender identity is force THEIR choice surgically on the child. Because they are often WRONG, this condemns the child to a life of physical and social misery. The intersexed persons' rights movement is demanding that this be stopped, and intersexed people be allowed to exist, and to chose their own sex assignment when they are old enough to do so. Parents who have refused to allow doctors to perform these surgeries on their intersexed babies, have had their babies legally taken away from them by courts, acting as the agents of the doctors who want to do the surgeries! So it is a fact that at present globally the medical profession is philosophically, legally and financially committed to and invested in surgically forcing everyone into either a male or female appearance shortly after birth. This surgical choice OF THE DOCTORS is then reinforced by a lifetime of hormonal therapy. Intersex activists are saying that if they are otherwise healthy babies, this surgical assignment of male or female sex should not be forced on them by the medical establishment. One of the problems is that it is impossible to draw a simple line between normal male intersex and normal female. All chromosomal or hormonal or hormonally induced structural defects or deviations from the reproductive norm are in fact forms (mild to severe) of intersex. Intersex states exist when there is a chromosomal, hormonal, neuroendocrinological or other variation or imperfect differentiation or formation / completion of the male or female reproductive system. some of these anatomical imperfections are so common, that they are not noramally thought of as forms of hermaphroditism, (like hypospydias in males) but they in fact are. Imperfect differentiations / reproductive problems are most often caused by hormonal influences in utero. Thus when a baby is born with reproductive abnormalities ( these are not the result of an injury) then the cause is most often a condition that falls within the range of disorders of intersex. The difference is only in severity, because there is no sharp demarcation between normal and slightly intersexed. The medical, legal and religious establishments are afraid to allow very intersexed persons to chose their own sex assignments, because of the implications for the rest of the people in the grayer areas of sex differentiation. Thus, the binary system must be defended at all costs. Even if it means the cruel multilation of helpless little babies who happen to be different from the perfect male or female model. There is certainly a medical tyranny involved in this. Read Dr. Alice Dreger's book on the history of this. "The Medical Invention of Sex" is the title, I think. She is a top medical ethicist involved with the ISNA (Intersex Society of North America). best wishes, BA G .--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Stubbs " wrote: > Dear BAG: > > I read your paper. Intensely interesting, and it certainly did fill > in a gap in my education which was left by the classes I took at the > university. Something very similar to what you have written about is > the controversy over the orthomolecular approach to the treatment of > mental disorders. The orthomolecular school of psychiatry disputes > the mainstream assumption that there is no medically identifiable > underlying condition. I have a textbook here on the orthomolecular > treatment of schizophrenia which names some of the medical conditions > which are believed to underlie schizophrenia symptoms and which lists > the blood tests orthomolecular psychiatrists use to determine an > appropriate treatment protocol. An orthomolecular treatment has to > be tailored to the specific patient based on blood chemistry. > Mainstream psychiatrists diagnose this condition using the criteria > in the DSM IV, which are entirely behavioral and use essentially the > same protocol for every patient. Another difference between the two > is that the orthomolecular psychiatrist, having diagnosed the medical > problem, treats it using a protocol which may not include the use of > legally controlled substances (i.e., antipsychotic drugs.) > Financially, the ability to control access to these substances is the > physician's ace in the hole, which makes some cynics think that > business, and not medical, considerations may be the reason this > division within the psychiatric community exists. The contention of > some psychiatrists that orthomolecular psychiatry is some sort of > quackery seems to be mooted by the fact that patients treated this > way have in some cases have recovered from disorders which are known > to be incurable. > > It was known from the fifties that ulcers were caused by a bacterium, > but the condition was treated until a few years ago using > prescription drugs which controlled the symptoms, but did not deal > with the underlying causes. Now that ulcers are treated with a > simple antibiotic, the drugs which were formerly used and which could > be obtained only by prescription, were immediately reclassified as > over the counter drugs and are no longer controlled. In his book on > investing, Peter Lynch made the interesting observation that > maintaining people in a state of profitable illness and not curing > anything could be (he thought) the medical wave of the future. He > referred specifically to ulcer treatment, and it appears he was > wrong. Lynch's analysis of the politics seems to be simplistic, but > that politics and business considerations sometimes figure in the > dislocation between the current state of scientific knowledge and the > current state of practice seems to be self evident. That such a > dislocation exists in the area of interest to you seems to be the > thesis of your paper, so you might find it interesting that it > appears to exist in other areas as well. > > The science may be there, in other words, but if it merely supports > the patient's health, and not the profession's financial health, > there may be a temptation to dismiss such inconvenient science for > several decades. There was a study of cancer patients a few years > ago which reportedly concluded that a dead patient was worth multiple > times more money to the profession than one whose illness went into > remission. From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Dec 30 17:24:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 31 Dec 2002 01:24:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 85187 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2002 01:24:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2002 01:24:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2002 01:24:01 -0000 Received: from pool0786.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.191.21] helo=earthlink) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TB8M-00036g-00; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:23:55 -0800 To: "Terrie Halprin" Subject: RE: HPB -- and after her what happens to THEOSOPHY ? Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:19:39 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 30 2002 The IMPORTANCE of THEOSOPHY After H P B what happens to THEOSOPHY ? Dear T. Your reaction to the books or writings by those authors sounds pretty much like my own. H P B is another thing. They have power. I think it is the power of veracity. At least, after about 60 years seriously examining their statements, I have not been able to fault them. But again, that's just me talking. Those are my conclusions, popular or not. Each of us is on their own. That's what makes us important to ourselves and to the world -- we don't need support and we don't feel it important to be members of a herd, or of a senseless crowd that assures us: "you're right," because it KNOWS NO BETTER No. We want to know independently IF WE ARE RIGHT. If you visit a museum and look at the art there -- your reaction is either that you like it, or you do not, or, it is so/so. Some people have no idea, and no innate basis to rely on -- some find it difficult to appreciate perspective, or color harmony -- just as much as many who attend the opera do the music halls haven an innate comprehension of musical harmony, and are afraid to give an opinion unless it is "politically correct." So, like sycophants, they follow the critics, and, being overwhelmed by the details of obviously well-advertised scholarship, have really nothing to say for themselves. Also they feel "hurt" if challenged, and asked to give THEIR reasons. I have seen changes in art, clothing, literary expression, poetry, architectural impact, musical appreciation. And the modern expressions are mostly cacophony, boisterously misplaced exuberance, or, "noise" to me. I don't need to be "excited." I can create my own "excitement," and also, I can control it. ( And I am not afraid to say so.) But that is so little liked or wanted, I generally keep quiet -- on the basis that those who opt for "following-the-leader" will eventually find out if it was a true and honest leader or not. They won't listen to warnings. [ And I don't think I am so wise either. I also say if one lives to be "excited," then one looses one's grip over the MIND, and of all my "tools," I value that most because it gives me control, and I very much resist any kind of external control being attempted to be cast on me. In short I will not permit "controlled." -- which "excitement" has a tendency to do.] I am of the opinion that H P B's writings speak to the kernel of things and give good reasons -- at least they seam coherent and trustworthy. They seek to present ideas. And in doing that they ask for a free evaluation of them. They do not attempt to control. I will also add, that while I do not understand everything on first reading, if I am patient, I have found that if I set the matter aside for future study, I have been eventually satisfied that it is a living part of A LIVING WHOLE. I read another current contributor who, making value judgments from appearances and seeming quantitative data, has come to the conclusion that "theosophy" is a dying or dwindling affair. As I see it, Theosophy is unassailable as a statement of FACTS IN NATURE. It offers HISTORY and not speculation, nor does it pander to any present craze or set of popular opinions. It does not seek "adherents." Contrary to popular "excitement, it is very sober -- it demands thinkers. Until that this grasped it will always be a mystery to the "fly-by-nights." Does a University present opportunities for those who want to learn? Or is it solely a basis from which graduating students can advertise their apparent expertise, and form there claim a larger "starting salary" from potential employers? No true scholars or seekers for TRUTH are they. Another observation is in regard to University offerings. Dom they invariably present the highest standard of knowledge? Are they impartial? Do they encourage and nurture independent study, even when it may be contrary (or deviant) from accepted norms and values ? Does it encourage learning and work without the imposition of the teacher' s standards or "hobby-horses?" Are existent theories or hypotheses allowed to be seriously challenged? is the challenger given a free platform? And, given encouragement to break down or to modify the basis of considerations that has hitherto prevailed? Is there true academic freedom there? Where is TRUTH to be had ? Well, see what you can make of this. I say THEOSOPHY demands inquiry, free and pertinent, always. In the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) -- p. 271 -- on Education, H P B wrote: "we should aim at creating free men and women, free intellectually, free morally, unprejudiced in all respects, and above all things unselfish." I think that is a pretty good objective. Best wishes, Dal =================== -----Original Message----- From: thalprin Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 9:27 AM To: Subject: HPB and after her THEOSOPHY -- is of what value ? Dear Dallas, Thank you for the very fine suggestion to read the works of these authors AND make me own assessments. But, truth is, in all likelihood I just can't bring myself to read their books. Over the years I've probably seen most of their titles, and, it is always the same - I pick up the book, check the table of contents, scan a few chapters for relative infos AND within a few minutes at most I always just wanna put those books down. A. A. B's materials seem kind of religious to me and it is this feeling of her prescribing one's "daily life" that I find grating. And, Leadbeater, he creeps me out. I just hear that guy's name and I feel lucky! Helena Roerich, really, I never get passed her photos, she reminds me of the lady DeVille for 101 Dalmatians - she freaks me out! And, I always think: "Man! I wouldn't wanna run into her on a dark road at night"! Olcott, I never know who he is, and, I'm never sure what he's actually saying or talking about. Krishnamurti, well, that whole situation just makes me too sad. The thing I like about HPB's works is that there is clear minded and relative information on each and every page. She did very well combine/solidify/cross-correlate maths, philosophy, mythology, science, language, history and symbol. These are the subjects that are of interest to me AND I am not much interested in agendas/pursuits bent of another nature of understanding nor single focus/insight or inclination. I think/feel that HPB's materials are a worldly, enlightening and unbiased resource AND that what she has written is in fact a tremendous accumulation of reason and wisdom AND quite a respectable gift to have accomplished/offered on up - it's an inspiration, even today. So, it's useful and it's practical, abiding as value does AND when I look in her eyes I see a seeker of truth AND I feel wisdom, trial and love. When I read her works I see/feel understanding and experience AND the effort/search to be as open and honest, thorough and direct as one can possibly be. Sincerely, T From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Mon Dec 30 19:08:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 31 Dec 2002 03:08:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 77419 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2002 03:08:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2002 03:08:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2002 03:08:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.178] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2002 03:08:19 -0000 Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:08:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Orthomolecular psychiatry and the scientific study of hermaphroditism Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4092 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.157.116.72 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Just amazing. I had no idea this was going on. One thing that I did know that most people do not is that when physicians decide to do a surgery on an infant, they do it WITHOUT ANESTHESIA. What a way to come into the world, eh? Adults who had surgeries as infants without the benefit of anesthesia bear the psychological scars from that into adulthood, as one can imagine. --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " wrote: > Dear Steve, > > Thanks for your response. > > There is in fact a huge global medical ethics debate going on > regarding the prevalent and increasing existence and the > proper 'treatment' of intersexed persons. In my Sex Differentiation > report (see my Topical Index), I list some of the most common forms > of animal and same mechanism-related forms of human intersex. One of > the most troubling medical ethics issues involved is the standard > performance of sex-change surgery on intersexed infants and very > young children. The doctors guessing what a child's sex and gender > identity is force THEIR choice surgically on the child. Because they > are often WRONG, this condemns the child to a life of physical and > social misery. The intersexed persons' rights movement is demanding > that this be stopped, and intersexed people be allowed to exist, and > to chose their own sex assignment when they are old enough to do so. > > Parents who have refused to allow doctors to perform these surgeries > on their intersexed babies, have had their babies legally taken away > from them by courts, acting as the agents of the doctors who want to > do the surgeries! > > So it is a fact that at present globally the medical profession is > philosophically, legally and financially committed to and invested in > surgically forcing everyone into either a male or female appearance > shortly after birth. This surgical choice OF THE DOCTORS is then > reinforced by a lifetime of hormonal therapy. Intersex activists are > saying that if they are otherwise healthy babies, this surgical > assignment of male or female sex should not be forced on them by the > medical establishment. > > One of the problems is that it is impossible to draw a simple line > between normal male intersex and normal female. All chromosomal or > hormonal or hormonally induced structural defects or deviations from > the reproductive norm are in fact forms (mild to severe) of intersex. > > Intersex states exist when there is a chromosomal, hormonal, > neuroendocrinological or other variation or imperfect differentiation > or formation / completion of the male or female reproductive system. > some of these anatomical imperfections are so common, that they are > not noramally thought of as forms of hermaphroditism, (like > hypospydias in males) but they in fact are. Imperfect > differentiations / reproductive problems are most often caused by > hormonal influences in utero. Thus when a baby is born with > reproductive abnormalities ( these are not the result of an injury) > then the cause is most often a condition that falls within the range > of disorders of intersex. The difference is only in severity, > because there is no sharp demarcation between normal and slightly > intersexed. > > The medical, legal and religious establishments are afraid to allow > very intersexed persons to chose their own sex assignments, because > of the implications for the rest of the people in the grayer areas of > sex differentiation. Thus, the binary system must be defended at all > costs. Even if it means the cruel multilation of helpless little > babies who happen to be different from the perfect male or female > model. > > There is certainly a medical tyranny involved in this. Read Dr. > Alice Dreger's book on the history of this. "The Medical Invention > of Sex" is the title, I think. She is a top medical ethicist involved > with the ISNA (Intersex Society of North America). > > > best wishes, > > BA G From wry1111@earthlink.net Mon Dec 30 19:19:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 31 Dec 2002 03:19:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 62164 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2002 03:18:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2002 03:18:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2002 03:18:58 -0000 Received: from 1cust158.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.158] helo=idapingala) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TCvd-0000k6-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:18:53 -0800 Message-ID: <001301c2b07b$74f9f740$9ed30b3f@idapingala> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: HPB -- and after her what happens to THEOSOPHY ? Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:19:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi. Since you are crosstalking about me without naming me, I will respond to this message, as I suspect you will not be able to reply, in the spirit of enquiry, to my message which was made with much love, plus well thought out. But I hope I am wrong. Maybe you just haven't gotten around to responding yet. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Terrie Halprin" Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 5:19 PM Subject: Theos-World RE: HPB -- and after her what happens to THEOSOPHY ? > Dec 30 2002 > > The IMPORTANCE of THEOSOPHY > > After H P B what happens to THEOSOPHY ? > > Dear T. > > Your reaction to the books or writings by those authors sounds pretty > much like my own. > > H P B is another thing. They have power. I think it is the power of > veracity. Wry: Should we believe you? These words are meaningless. What will happen is someone will decide that you know and then they will believe you, which seems to be what is intended. This is not only not real verification, but it also leads to authority, which is the opposite of that. Truth is your body sitting in the chair, reading this email, in present time. When something with no opinion sees you, as you are, doing whatever you are doing, this aligns your little self with what you have called the oversoul. I am not against anyone reading HPB, but actually, if you don't read her writings at all, and simply practice the impartial recording of yourself, as you are, in present time, there is a good chance you or anyone will achieve genuine spiritual transformation a whole lot faster. > > At least, after about 60 years seriously examining their statements, I > have not been able to fault them. But again, that's just me talking. > Those are my conclusions, popular or not. Each of us is on their own. Wry: Then why even give yoiur opinion, unless you want it to slant other people's opinions in the direction of your opinion. It makes no sense, and could be interpretated as a kind of double talk. I put new material and information in my messages. It is a gift. > > That's what makes us important to ourselves and to the world -- we > don't need support and we don't feel it important to be members of a > herd, or of a senseless crowd that assures us: "you're right," > because it KNOWS NO BETTER No. We want to know independently IF WE > ARE RIGHT. > > If you visit a museum and look at the art there -- your reaction is > either that you like it, or you do not, or, it is so/so. Some people > have no idea, and no innate basis to rely on -- some find it difficult > to appreciate perspective, or color harmony -- just as much as many > who attend the opera do the music halls haven an innate comprehension > of musical harmony, and are afraid to give an opinion unless it is > "politically correct." So, like sycophants, they follow the critics, > and, being overwhelmed by the details of obviously well-advertised > scholarship, have really nothing to say for themselves. Also they > feel "hurt" if challenged, and asked to give THEIR reasons. Wry: This is not Wry, who gives specific reasons, not broad, bland generalizations, but honestly, who could it be? Think hard. With some it is all a matter of emotional preference, pretending to be rational. Some want to be immortal. That ideas FEELS so good. It is likable, but it is an unverified BELIEF which serves no function, and, as such, is a distraction from the practice of real brotherhood and genuine spirituality. Various unsophisticated writings about so called immortality are too bland and broad and sound like preference in disguise, not true impartiality. It is the soft white light, not the clear light. Also, along with this kind of spirituality, there is frequently the practice of grandstanding. > > I have seen changes in art, clothing, literary expression, poetry, > architectural impact, musical appreciation. And the modern > expressions are mostly cacophony, boisterously misplaced exuberance, > or, "noise" to me. I don't need to be "excited." I can create my own > "excitement," and also, I can control it. ( And I am not afraid to > say so.) But that is so little liked or wanted, I generally keep > quiet -- on the basis that those who opt for "following-the-leader" > will eventually find out if it was a true and honest leader or not. > They won't listen to warnings. [ And I don't think I am so wise > either. I also say if one lives to be "excited," then one looses one's > grip over the MIND, and of all my "tools," I value that most because > it gives me control, and I very much resist any kind of external > control being attempted to be cast on me. In short I will not permit > "controlled." -- which "excitement" has a tendency to do.] > > I am of the opinion that H P B's writings speak to the kernel of > things and give good reasons -- at least they seam coherent and > trustworthy. They seek to present ideas. And in doing that they ask > for a free evaluation of them. They do not attempt to control. I will > also add, that while I do not understand everything on first reading, > if I am patient, I have found that if I set the matter aside for > future study, I have been eventually satisfied that it is a living > part of A LIVING WHOLE. > > I read another current contributor who, making value judgments from > appearances and seeming quantitative data, has come to the conclusion > that "theosophy" is a dying or dwindling affair. Wry: Actually, I got this information from reading the messages of others on this list who were recently talking about this subject. > > As I see it, Theosophy is unassailable as a statement of FACTS IN > NATURE. It offers HISTORY and not speculation, nor does it pander to > any present craze or set of popular opinions. It does not seek > "adherents." Contrary to popular "excitement, it is very sober -- it > demands thinkers. > > Until that this grasped it will always be a mystery to the > "fly-by-nights." Wry: Well, there is one new member on this list who is a hard core ponderer and a (somewhat) fearless enquirer, and I'm not going anywhere unless I get kicked off of here, which is what you would like and have already advocated. > > Does a University present opportunities for those who want to learn? > Or is it solely a basis from which graduating students can advertise > their apparent expertise, and form there claim a larger "starting > salary" from potential employers? No true scholars or seekers for > TRUTH are they. Wry: I'm just doing what it is that a bee does, which is always original.. You just don't know how to recognize it. You are attempting, again and again, to create states in people, but truth is not a state, and eternalism is a state of mind that is STAGNANT and not alive, whether you say it is alive or not. > > Another observation is in regard to University offerings. Dom they > invariably present the highest standard of knowledge? Are they > impartial? Wry: The implication is that you are. But who is to know unless a specific method for becoming actually impartial is implemented. The truth is that no ones becomes impartial by hit and miss, but this is what you are advocating/ it may be contrary (or deviant) from accepted norms and values ? Wry: Do you? it encourage learning and work without the imposition of the teacher' > s standards or "hobby-horses?" Wry: Do you? allowed to be seriously challenged? is the challenger given a free > platform? And, given encouragement to break down or to modify the > basis of considerations that has hitherto prevailed? Is there true > academic freedom there? Wry: And we will see if such is the case with theosophy. When I first came on here, I thought that all theosophists had eternalistic beliefs like you, and it is true that many do, but not all. In the case of theosophy, I was wrong about the message I made to Paul about the karma of interfering with people's beliefs, after being on this list for a while, I have only very recently come to understand that it is the duty of a true theosophist to enquire and discover, and, I now see it is for the greater good, to address you honestly, and not be afraid of hurting your feelings or arousing your anger. > > Where is TRUTH to be had ? > > Well, see what you can make of this. I say THEOSOPHY demands inquiry, > free and pertinent, always. In the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) -- p. > 271 -- on Education, H P B wrote: "we should aim at creating free > men and women, free intellectually, free morally, unprejudiced in all > respects, and above all things unselfish." I think that is a pretty > good objective. Wry: If you think enquiry is a good idea, then lets do it and not just talk about it. You should try to encourage that atmosphere on this list rather than discourage it, and I will do the same. Sincerely, Wry > > Best wishes, > > Dal > > =================== > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: thalprin > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 9:27 AM > To: > Subject: HPB and after her THEOSOPHY -- is of what value ? > > Dear Dallas, > > Thank you for the very fine suggestion to read the works of these > authors AND make me own assessments. But, truth is, in all likelihood > I just can't bring myself to read their books. > > Over the years I've probably seen most of their titles, and, it is > always the same - I pick up the book, check the table of contents, > scan a few chapters for relative infos AND within a few minutes at > most I always just wanna put those books down. > > A. A. B's materials seem kind of religious to me and it is this > feeling > of her prescribing one's "daily life" that I find grating. And, > Leadbeater, he creeps me out. I just hear that guy's name and I feel > lucky! Helena Roerich, really, I never get passed her photos, she > reminds me of the lady DeVille for 101 Dalmatians - she freaks me > out! And, I always think: "Man! I wouldn't wanna run into her on a > dark road at night"! Olcott, I never know who he is, and, I'm never > sure what he's actually saying or talking about. Krishnamurti, well, > that whole situation just makes me too sad. > > The thing I like about HPB's works is that there is clear minded and > relative information on each and every page. She did very well > combine/solidify/cross-correlate maths, philosophy, mythology, > science, language, history and symbol. These are the subjects that > are of interest to me AND I am not much interested in > agendas/pursuits bent of another nature of understanding nor single > focus/insight or inclination. I think/feel that HPB's materials are > a worldly, enlightening and unbiased resource AND that what she has > written is in fact a tremendous accumulation of reason and wisdom AND > quite a respectable gift to have accomplished/offered on up - it's an > inspiration, even today. So, it's useful and it's practical, abiding > as value does AND when I look in her eyes I see a seeker of truth AND > I feel wisdom, trial and love. When I read her works I see/feel > understanding and experience AND the effort/search to be as open and > honest, thorough and direct as one can possibly be. > > Sincerely, > > T > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Mon Dec 30 19:52:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 31 Dec 2002 03:52:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 34152 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2002 03:52:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2002 03:52:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.88) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2002 03:52:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.145] by n4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Dec 2002 03:52:26 -0000 Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:52:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Orthomolecular psychiatry and the scientific study of hermaphroditism Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6624 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " X-Originating-IP: 67.225.118.206 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn Not only are some surgeries done without anesthesia, but infants that have had vaginoplasties (surgically created vaginas) must have their 'vaginas' 'dialated' with a stint for several hours a day and this horror continues all the time they are growing up ! This is done to xx girl babies with vaginal agenesis. It is also done to xy boy babies with penises under the big-enough size on the 'phallometer', and boys with no penis / penial agenesis. (see my Report Index on this). It has long been the standard practice to do sex change surgery on these boy babies who do not have a phallus, or a 'big enough' phallus to please the SURGEONS' idea of a male. Such unfortunate boys have routinely had their testicles removed and a vaginoplasty. Assigned 'female' they then are raised as girls. When puberty comes they are given female hormones to develope breasts etc. As unimaginable as this seems, it has long been the standard treatment for penial agenesis and micro-penis. Now due to pressure from the intersex rights groups, this practice is being challenged and a new standard of treatment is emerging. Surgeon-advocates of the old school are vehemently opposed to allowing these intersexed vagina-less or penis-less babies to escape the knife and stint and grow up 'imperfect' but healthy and happy as different but still very lovable human beings. Since babies can't defend themselves against this, adult intersex persons are fighting to get laws passed to protect the right-to-live of intersexed infants. Besides the agenesis conditions, there are many conditions where both a penis and vagina sre present. In these cases the child is routinely castrated as raised as a girl. Dr. Dreger and other medical ethicists have looked at why this is so. It seems that surgeons prefer to 'make girls' out of all intersexed infants. There are a large number of very angry castrated people around who grew up to want their penis, which was removed without their consent as an infant. If these facts shock the readers here, please become an activist and get educated and become part of the solution. help to sign petitions etc. to get these insane inhumane practices stopped. BA G --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Stubbs " wrote: > Just amazing. I had no idea this was going on. One thing that I did > know that most people do not is that when physicians decide to do a > surgery on an infant, they do it WITHOUT ANESTHESIA. What a way to > come into the world, eh? Adults who had surgeries as infants without > the benefit of anesthesia bear the psychological scars from that into > adulthood, as one can imagine. > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Bhakti Ananda Goswami > " wrote: > > Dear Steve, > > > > Thanks for your response. > > > > There is in fact a huge global medical ethics debate going on > > regarding the prevalent and increasing existence and the > > proper 'treatment' of intersexed persons. In my Sex > Differentiation > > report (see my Topical Index), I list some of the most common forms > > of animal and same mechanism-related forms of human intersex. One > of > > the most troubling medical ethics issues involved is the standard > > performance of sex-change surgery on intersexed infants and very > > young children. The doctors guessing what a child's sex and gender > > identity is force THEIR choice surgically on the child. Because > they > > are often WRONG, this condemns the child to a life of physical and > > social misery. The intersexed persons' rights movement is > demanding > > that this be stopped, and intersexed people be allowed to exist, > and > > to chose their own sex assignment when they are old enough to do > so. > > > > Parents who have refused to allow doctors to perform these > surgeries > > on their intersexed babies, have had their babies legally taken > away > > from them by courts, acting as the agents of the doctors who want > to > > do the surgeries! > > > > So it is a fact that at present globally the medical profession is > > philosophically, legally and financially committed to and invested > in > > surgically forcing everyone into either a male or female appearance > > shortly after birth. This surgical choice OF THE DOCTORS is then > > reinforced by a lifetime of hormonal therapy. Intersex activists > are > > saying that if they are otherwise healthy babies, this surgical > > assignment of male or female sex should not be forced on them by > the > > medical establishment. > > > > One of the problems is that it is impossible to draw a simple line > > between normal male intersex and normal female. All chromosomal or > > hormonal or hormonally induced structural defects or deviations > from > > the reproductive norm are in fact forms (mild to severe) of > intersex. > > > > Intersex states exist when there is a chromosomal, hormonal, > > neuroendocrinological or other variation or imperfect > differentiation > > or formation / completion of the male or female reproductive > system. > > some of these anatomical imperfections are so common, that they are > > not noramally thought of as forms of hermaphroditism, (like > > hypospydias in males) but they in fact are. Imperfect > > differentiations / reproductive problems are most often caused by > > hormonal influences in utero. Thus when a baby is born with > > reproductive abnormalities ( these are not the result of an injury) > > then the cause is most often a condition that falls within the > range > > of disorders of intersex. The difference is only in severity, > > because there is no sharp demarcation between normal and slightly > > intersexed. > > > > The medical, legal and religious establishments are afraid to allow > > very intersexed persons to chose their own sex assignments, because > > of the implications for the rest of the people in the grayer areas > of > > sex differentiation. Thus, the binary system must be defended at > all > > costs. Even if it means the cruel multilation of helpless little > > babies who happen to be different from the perfect male or female > > model. > > > > There is certainly a medical tyranny involved in this. Read Dr. > > Alice Dreger's book on the history of this. "The Medical Invention > > of Sex" is the title, I think. She is a top medical ethicist > involved > > with the ISNA (Intersex Society of North America). > > > > > > best wishes, > > > > BA G From wry1111@earthlink.net Mon Dec 30 19:55:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 31 Dec 2002 03:55:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 39789 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2002 03:55:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2002 03:55:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2002 03:55:46 -0000 Received: from 1cust158.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.158] helo=idapingala) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18TDVJ-0004Zf-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:55:46 -0800 Message-ID: <007b01c2b080$9be6eca0$9ed30b3f@idapingala> To: References: <153.199eec91.2b422732@cs.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy and Mesmerism Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:56:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 From: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 There is no quick-fix, but some approaches are more orderly than others and will lead to better results. If something with no opinion is "outside" of whatever is happening, impartially recording it, in present time, than there is hope and the possibility of developing a real soul and not a pretend one. There is too much thought of masters and leaders on this list and not enough talk about how to verify physical reality. Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 2:48 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy and Mesmerism > Lol, > Maybe we need a contemporary "Buddhi" holding a Lollipop in one hand, and > "Sour Grapes" in the other. > > John > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From mhart@idirect.ca Mon Dec 30 22:34:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 31 Dec 2002 06:34:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 77379 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2002 06:34:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2002 06:34:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2002 06:34:38 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-22.look.ca ([216.154.45.69] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18TFz1-0002ss-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 01:34:35 -0500 Message-ID: <3E113B41.4B4E072E@idirect.ca> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 01:37:53 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: Re: B.A.G. on Blavatsky, the Mahatmas and Serapis Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Re: B.A.G. on Blavatsky, the Mahatmas and Serapis Quotes about "inner masters," (among other things, as we all know?) might have certain confusing and misleading aspects to them, in many cases, I suspect, when interpreted with a certain kind of mainstream/logical train of thought. So when somebody comes along and offers a set of quotes that might be rather easily misinterpreted by (most people?), one might wonder what the underlying purpose of of such offerings might be. Of course, on the other hand, if one's own, various explanations about confusing things don't seem to get across reasonably intact to other's, well ... So we have, as I see it, various "exoteric versions," "blinds," and whatever, on the one hand, and on the other hand there might the somewhat "more-esoteric versions" and everything in between ... But I suspect that those who insist on following a certain kind of naive, simplistic "logic" in their "Theosophic studies" might find themselves, sooner or later, up a certain kind of tricky Theosophic creek. And I'm wondering if there might be people out there who, having gone up that creek already, might be inclined to steer others up that same creek. Not that there are any easy enough answers, (apparently?), for any of us, and not that I'm blameless, myself (not blameless by a long shot as per Leon, Dallas, etc?), but ... Speculatively, Mauri PS I figure I might be better off if I offer my but/"buts" just to Gerald on Theos-1 ... :-) Well, or try to offer them, anyway ... PPS I've been using "individual" and "personal" in the conventional sense as meaning the same thing, but having read BAG's quotes, seems as if "individual" in Theosophy refers to "higher" and "personal" to "lower." Oh, well, there's another good reason, as I see it, why I should keep on signing off with "speculatively" ... PPPS Of course I could take some time off to "study Theosophy properly," first. Problem with that might be, since I estimate it might take me about two or three hundred years to accomplish that, I'm not too sure how my physical condition might be (ie, aside from wherever my spiritual condition might've gone, by then) after all those years of studying, so ... From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Dec 31 00:42:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 31 Dec 2002 08:42:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 46579 invoked from network); 31 Dec 2002 08:42:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 31 Dec 2002 08:42:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 31 Dec 2002 08:42:12 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.3b.3190b95c (30960) for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:42:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3b.3190b95c.2b42b260@aol.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 03:42:08 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Theosophy and Mesmerism To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Wry, ( or is it "Honey Bee" :-) So, when are you going to tell us how to "verify physical reality"? Although, even if you can -- what does that have to do with theosophical metaphysics -- which logically, scientifically, philosophically (and experientially) proves (as far as I am concerned, after over 50 years of serious study and comparison with other theories of reality) that the "physical reality" is only a small part of an overall, holistic metaphysical reality that goes back to and is the result of fundamental causes based on lawful involution and evolution of BOTH "non physical" consciousness (or spirit) and "physical" (substantial) matter (or mass/energy)? Besides, your statement is a misleading red herring (which seems to be designed to capture the minds of unthinking potential disciples who might suppose you are saying something profound) ... Since, "verifying physical reality" is as simple as dropping a brick on your toe -- and "feeling" the pain. :-) Having studied all your commen