From teos9@aol.com Sat Dec 28 04:46:17 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 12:46:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 22565 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 12:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 12:46:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 12:46:17 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.14b.1982cf96 (4238) for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 07:46:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <14b.1982cf96.2b3ef716@aol.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 07:46:14 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:HPB and the Nazi doctrines To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10641 From: teos9@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=31608821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Zack. Thanks for the research on Bailey's use of the word Nazi throughout her collected works. Although, It has been many years since I studied the 24 volumes of the Bailey material, I too, cannot recall specific anti Semitic commentary by Bailey or DK, within the overall CONTEXT of those works. There are plenty of interpretations and opinions about the anti Semitism found in the Bailey works, none of which, I have found to be well studied and in context of the whole work. It would be interesting to see the results of a search of your CD, using the word "Jews" as the search term. Added to your search on the word Nazi, that might go a long way to putting an end to this unending and unscholarly discussion. Where and when will you be giving your talk? Louis In a message dated 12/28/2002 7:06:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, zackl@sprynet.com writes: > Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > >Bailey wrote numerous articles, as well. > > >Zack Lansdowne wrote: > >> I have the complete set of Alice Bailey's 24 books on CD-ROM, and so I > >> decided to check the accuracy of Bart's claim that Alice Bailey "made > >> a number of statements supportive of the Nazi's." By doing a search > >> on the word "Nazi", I learned that Bailey, in her books, used this > >> word exactly nine times. > > >She did change her tune after the Nazi's went to war with England (at > >least officially). Are the so-called "yellow" (non-channeled) books > >included in your collection (in particular, PROBLEMS OF HUMANITY)?" > > > Details of my Bailey CD can be found on the Lucis Trust website > (http://www.lucistrust.org/) where it can be purchased. This CD > collection > includes the following 24 books: > > Initiation, Human and Solar > bethThe Reappearance of the Christ > Letters on Occult Meditation > The Destiny of the Nations > The Consciousness of the Atom > Glamour: A World Problem > A Treatise on Cosmic Fire > Telepathy and the Etheric Vehicle > The Light of the Soul > Education in the New Age > The Soul and Its Mechanism > The Externalisation of the Hierarchy > The Unfinished Autobiography > Discipleship in the New Age, Vol. I > Discipleship in the New Age, Vol. II > Esoteric Psychology, Vol. I > From Intellect to Intuition > Esoteric Psychology, Vol. II > A Treatise on White Magic > Esoteric Astrology > From Bethlehem to Calvary > Esoteric Healing > Problems of Humanity > The Rays and the Initiations > > > As Bart mentioned, some of the Alice Bailey books are said to channeled, > allegedly written by "The Tibetan" or the "Master Djwhal Khul." Others of > her books are said to be of her own composition, such as the "The > Unfinished > Autobiography." This CD collection of 24 books contains all of her books > in > both categories, including "Problems of Humanity." > > My favorite Bailey books are "A Treatise on White Magic" and "Esoteric > Healing." In April 2003 I will present a talk on "Esoteric Healing and > Modern Medicine" at a conference on science and spirituality. In this > talk, > I will present the key principles from Bailey's "Esoteric Healing" for > several complementary or alternative therapies, and will also discuss the > impact of these therapies on modern medicine as practiced today in the > United States. > > Zack Lansdowne > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 28 05:25:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 51468 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:21 -0000 Received: from pool0103.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.103] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SGxr-00032b-00; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:25:20 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:21:08 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2002 Dear John: I have a copy of H P B SPEAKS Vol. II with me and have referred to it. H P B says nothing directly concerning herself, "hermaphroditism" and her "virginity." She does protest clearly the defamation made on several counts ( having lovers, swindling, theft) by a "Lady-in-waiting: O. Smirnoff " to Prince M. Dondoukoff-Korsakov, Commander in Chief in the Caucasus ( June 3, 1884 ) pp. 142 - 159 refer to this in detail. H P B and her family were known by the Prince for many years. She specially protests some defamatory statements made concerning her sister by this same writer. She asks that her reputation be reviewed and a certificate of facts known to him and investigated by the local police in Tiflis and Odessa, be sent to her in Paris, C/o Mme. de Barrau, Rue Varenne 51, As I recall, when ill in Ostende (1886), before going to London at the request of her friends, she was examined by a doctor and he made the statement that she was congenitally incapable of bearing children, and had never born any, etc... Countess Wachmeister in her REMINISCENCES mentions this. This is also mentioned and referenced with documents, in Sylvia Cranston's recent biography of H P B. "THE EXTRAORDINARY LIFE OF Mme. HELENA BLAVATSKY." Best wishes, Dallas =============================== -----Original Message----- From: samblo Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 11:48 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism Paul, Yes, there all all those contentions, but I might add that in Vol II "H P B Speaks" Madame Blavatsky in firmest declaritive states she never consummated her Marriage and yet remained chaste as in virginal. I have been searching for the text I mentioned but so far am still looking as it has been over 10 years since I read it. I now seem to think in my memory it was in regard to a suitor in Egypt who she pushed away that the statement she made is to be found, but this may change as I refresh more. John Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 28 05:25:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 93017 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from pool0103.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.103] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SGy7-00032b-00; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:25:35 -0800 To: Subject: RE: H P B and Theosophical Philosophy Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:21:11 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <20021228084105.45300.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2002 Dear Mic: Re: Concerning the study of Philosophy at the University level At the risk of being thrown out of court, let me offer you to read if you have not already a synopsis of Theosophical Philosophy. And ask you to compare it with the description you make of philosophy taught at college. I recall going through a somewhat similar experience (40s) at Bombay University. I switched to Science. This made sense to me and also gave me a "starting point." Inquire, inquire and seek the source and base of any observation or statement made. Continually ask WHY. The theories and hypotheses are constructs. They are hopes and imaginings. What trust can we give to their actuality? We have to confine our study to observation and common sense, not speculate on anything which we are not directly cognizant of. There has to be honesty and sincerity, and rigorous logic. Best wishes, Dallas see what you think of this: -------------------- THEOSOPHY GENERALLY STATED The claim is made that an impartial study of history, religion and literature will show the existence from ancient times of a great body of philosophical, scientific and ethical doctrine forming the basis and origin of all similar thought in modern systems. It is at once religious and scientific, asserting that religion and science should never be separated. It puts forward sublime religious and ideal teachings, but at the same time shows that all of it can be demonstrated to reason, and that authority other than that has no place, thus preventing the hypocrisy which arises from asserting dogmas on authority which no one can show as resting on reason. This ancient body of doctrine is known as the "Wisdom Religion" and was always taught by adepts or initiates therein who preserve it through all time. Hence, and from other doctrines demonstrated, it is shown that man, being spirit and immortal, is able to perpetuate his real life and consciousness, and has done so during all time in the persons of those higher flowers of the human race who are members of an ancient and high brotherhood who concern themselves with the soul development of man, held by them to include every process of evolution on all planes. The initiates, being bound by the law of evolution, must work with humanity as its development permits. Therefore from time to time they give out again and again the same doctrine which from time to time grows obscured in various nations and places. This is the wisdom religion, and they are the keepers of it. At times they come to nations as great teachers and "saviours," who only re-promulgate the old truths and system of ethics. This therefore holds that humanity is capable of infinite perfection both in time and quality, the saviours and adepts being held up as examples of that possibility. >From this living and presently acting body of perfected men H. P. Blavatsky declared she received the impulse to once more bring forward the old ideas, and from them also received several keys to ancient and modern doctrines that had been lost during modern struggles toward civilization, and also that she was furnished by them with some doctrines really ancient but entirely new to the present day in any exoteric shape. These she wrote among the other keys furnished by her to her fellow members and the world at large. Added, then, to the testimony through all time found in records of all nations we have this modern explicit assertion that the ancient learned and humanitarian body of adepts still exists on this earth and takes an interest in the development of the race. Theosophy postulates an eternal principle called the unknown, which can never be cognized except through its manifestations. This eternal principle is in and is every thing and being; t periodically and eternally manifests itself and recedes again from manifestation. In this ebb and flow evolution proceeds and itself is the progress of the manifestation. The perceived universe is the manifestation of this unknown, including spirit and matter, for Theosophy holds that those are but the two opposite poles of the one unknown principle. They coexist, are not separate nor separable from each other, or, as the Hindu scriptures say, there is no particle of matter without spirit, and no particle of spirit without matter. In manifesting itself the spirit-matter differentiates on seven planes, each more dense on the way down to the plane of our senses than its predecessors the substance in all being the same, only differing in degree. Therefore from this view the whole universe is alive, not one atom of it being in any sense dead. It is also conscious and intelligent, its consciousness and intelligence being resent on all planes though obscured on this one. On this plane of ours the spirit focalizes itself in all human beings who choose to permit it to do so, and the refusal to permit it is the cause of ignorance, of sin. of all sorrow and suffering. In all ages some have come to this high state, have grown to be as gods, are partakers actively in the work of nature, and go on from century to century widening their consciousness and increasing the scope of their government in nature. This is the destiny of all beings, and hence at the outset Theosophy postulates this perfectibility of the race, removes the idea of innate un-regenerable wickedness, and offers a purpose and an aim for life which is consonant with the longings of the soul and with its real nature, tending at the same time to destroy pessimism with its companion, despair. In Theosophy the world is held to be the product of the evolution of the principle spoken of from the very lowest first forms of life guided as it proceeded by intelligent perfected beings from other and older evolutions, and compounded also of the egos or individual spirits for and by whom it emanates. Hence man as we know him is held to be a conscious spirit, the flower of evolution, with other and lower classes of egos below him in the lower kingdoms, all however coming up and destined one day to be on the same human stage as we now are, we then being higher still. Man's consciousness being thus more perfect is able to pass from one to another of the planes of differentiation mentioned. If he mistakes any one of them for the reality that he is in his essence, he is deluded; the object of evolution then is to give him complete self-consciousness so that he may go on to higher stages in the progress of the universe. His evolution after coming on the human stage is for the getting of experience, and in order to so raise up and purify the various planes of matter with which he has to do, that the voice of the spirit may be fully heard and comprehended. He is a religious being because he is a spirit encased in matter, which is in turn itself spiritual in essence. Being a spirit he requires vehicles with which to come in touch with all the planes of nature included in evolution, and it is these vehicles that make of him an intricate, composite being, liable to error, but at the same time able to rise above all delusions and conquer the highest place. He is in miniature the universe, for he is as spirit, manifesting himself to himself by means of seven differentiations. Therefore is he known in Theosophy as a sevenfold being. The Christian division of body, soul, and spirit is accurate so far as it goes, but will not answer to the problems of life and nature, unless, as is not the case, those three divisions are each held to be composed of others, which would raise the possible total to seven. The spirit stands alone at the top, next comes the spiritual soul or Buddhi as it is called in Sanskrit. This partakes more of the spirit than any below it, and is connected with Manas or mind, these three being the real trinity of man, the imperishable part, the real thinking entity living on the earth in the other and denser vehicles by its evolution. Below in order of quality is the plane of the desires and passions shared with the animal kingdom, unintelligent, and the producer of ignorance flowing from delusion. It is distinct from the will and judgment, and must therefore be given its own place. On this plane is gross life, manifesting, not as spirit from which it derives its essence, but as energy and motion on this plane. It being common to the whole objective plane and being everywhere, is also to be classed by itself, the portion used by man being given up at the death of the body. Then last, before the objective body, is the model or double of the outer physical case. This double is the astral body belonging to the astral plane of matter, not so dense as physical molecules, but more tenuous and much stronger, as well as lasting. It is the original of the body permitting the physical molecules to arrange and show themselves thereon, allowing them to go and come from day to day as they are known to do, yet ever retaining the fixed shape and contour given by the astral double within. These lower four principles or sheaths are the transitory perishable part of man, not himself, but in every sense the instrument he uses, given up at the hour of death like an old garment, and rebuilt out of the general reservoir at every new birth. The trinity is the real man, the thinker, the individuality that passes from house to house, gaining experience at each rebirth, while it suffers and enjoys according to its deeds--it is the one central man, the living spirit-soul. Now this spiritual man, having always existed, being intimately concerned in evolution, dominated by the law of cause and effect, because in himself he is that very law, showing moreover on this plane varieties of force of character, capacity, and opportunity, his very presence must be explained, while the differences noted have to be accounted for. The doctrine of reincarnation does all this. It means that man as a thinker, composed of soul, mind and spirit, occupies body after body in life after life on the earth which is the scene of his evolution, and where he must, under the very laws of his being, complete that evolution, once it has been begun. In any one life he is known to others as a personality, but in the whole stretch of eternity he is one individual, feeling in himself an identity not dependent on name, form, or recollection. This doctrine is the very base of Theosophy, for it explains life and nature. It is one aspect of evolution, for as it is reembodiment in meaning, and as evolution could not go on without reembodiment, it is evolution itself, as applied to the human soul. But it is also a doctrine believed in at the time given to Jesus and taught in the early ages of Christianity, being now as much necessary to that religion as it is to any other to explain texts, to reconcile the justice of God with the rough and merciless aspect of nature and life to most mortals, and to throw a light perceptible by reason on all the problems that vex us in our journey through this world. The vast, and under any other doctrine unjust, difference between the savage and the civilized man as to both capacity, character, and opportunity can be understood only through this doctrine, and coming to our own stratum the differences of the same kind may only thus be explained. It vindicates Nature and God, and removes from religion the blot thrown by men who have postulated creeds which paint the creator as a demon. Each man's life and character are the outcome of his previous lives and thoughts. Each is his own judge, his own executioner, for it is his own hand that forges the weapon which works for his punishment, and each by his own life reaches reward, rises to heights of knowledge and power for the good of all who may be left behind him. Nothing is left to chance, favour, or partiality, but all is under the governance of law. Man is a thinker, and by his thoughts he makes the causes for woe or bliss; for his thoughts produce his acts. He is the centre for any disturbance of the universal harmony, and to him as the centre, the disturbance must return so as to bring about equilibrium; for nature always works towards harmony. Man is always carrying on a series of thoughts, which extend back to the remote past, continually making action and reaction. He is thus responsible for all his thoughts and acts, and in that his complete responsibility is established; his own spirit is the essence of this law and provides for ever compensation for every disturbance and adjustment for all effects. This is the law of Karma or justice, sometimes called the ethical law of causation. It is not foreign to the Christian scriptures, for both Jesus and St. Paul clearly enunciated it. Jesus said we should be judged as we gave judgment and should receive the measure meted to others. St. Paul said: "Brethren, be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth that also shall he reap." And that sowing and reaping can only be possible under the doctrines of Karma and reincarnation. But what of death and after? Is heaven a place or is it not? Theosophy teaches, as may be found in all sacred books, that after death the soul reaps a rest. This is from its own nature. It is a thinker, and cannot during life fulfill and carry out all nor even a small part of the myriads of thoughts entertained. Hence when at death it casts off the body and the astral body, and is released from the passions and desires, its natural forces have immediate sway and it thinks its thoughts out on the soul plane, clothed in a finer body suitable to that existence. This is called Devachan. It is the very state that has brought about the descriptions of heaven common to all religions, but this doctrine is very clearly put in the Buddhist and Hindu religions. It is a time of rest, because the physical body being absent the consciousness is not in the completer touch with visible nature which is possible on the material plane. But it is a real existence, and no more illusionary than earth life; it is where the essence of the thoughts of life that were as high as character permitted, expands and is garnered by the soul and mind. When the force of these thoughts is fully exhausted the soul is drawn back once more to earth, to that environment which is sufficiently like unto itself to give it the proper further evolution. This alternation from state to state goes on until the being rises from repeated experiences above ignorance, and realizes in itself the actual unity of all spiritual beings. Then it passes on to higher and greater steps on the evolutionary road. No new ethics are presented by Theosophy, as it is held that right ethics are for ever the same. But in the doctrines of Theosophy are to be found the philosophical and reasonable basis for ethics and the natural enforcement of them in practice. Universal brotherhood is that which will result in doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, and in your loving your neighbour as yourself--declared as right by all teachers in the great religions of the world. WILLIAM Q. JUDGE December 1893 L. ======================================= =================== -----Original Message----- From: Mic Forster [mailto:micforster@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 12:41 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism TYPO CORRECTED AND CLARIFICATION Thanks Etzion, just making sure we are all still on the ball. But I'm a scientist at heart and before I can be convinced of something I really need tangible proof (well something close to tangible anyway). At the beginning of this year at university I decided to do some extra subjects and consequently I undertook philosophy. Well I enjoyed the lectures but after one tutorial I chucked it in with sheer frustration. Those guys couldn't make up their minds on anything!!! From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 28 05:25:41 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 21061 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 13:25:40 -0000 Received: from pool0103.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.103] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SGyC-00032b-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:25:40 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:21:29 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <21.2959819c.2b3eaf56@cs.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2002 Did you ever read Emanuel Velikovsky 's book (1940s) on the missing historical periods and dynasties of Egypt? Dal. ============ -----Original Message----- From: samblo@cs.com [mailto:samblo@cs.com] Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 11:40 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines Steve, The permutations from Pharoah Ahmasis to Ahmoses to Amoses to Moses is an interesting linguistist idiosyncracy. John From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 28 05:34:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 13:34:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 10748 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 13:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 13:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 13:34:18 -0000 Received: from pool0103.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.103] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SH6Q-0000Wm-00; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:34:10 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Theos-World: "root races" Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 05:29:27 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <009101c2ae50$688d42a0$fbd30b3f@idapingala> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 X-Yahoo-Profile: dalval2 Dec 28 2002 Dear Friends: Re: Root Races etc... in Theosophical Texts I found that the best source on this is to take The SECRET DOCTRINE and a good INDEX, and then trace down all the information there. The Theosophical use of the word "race" has nothing to do with the color of the skin, or of physiological heredity. Only those who have not delved into the Theosophical teachings (or rather the HISTORY) of the development of mankind in (for us) pre-historical periods have vague ideas as to what is meant. One of the best guides is the following synopsis: -------------------- ROUNDS AND RACES THEOSOPHY A BODY OF KNOWLEDGE (General basis) Theosophy is that ocean of knowledge which spreads from shore to shore of the evolution of sentient beings; unfathomable in its deepest parts, it gives the greatest minds their fullest scope, yet, shallow enough at its shores, it will not overwhelm the understanding of a child. It is Wisdom, for it is the science of sciences. It is therefore complete in itself and sees no unsolvable mystery anywhere. It throws the word coincidence out of its vocabulary. It hails the reign of law in everything and every circumstance. It is a knowledge of the laws which govern the evolution of the physical, astral, psychical, and intellectual constituents of nature and of man. Theosophy knows that the whole is constituted of the visible and the invisible, and perceiving outer things and objects to be transitory, it grasps the facts of nature, both without and within. The vast array of objects and men are not mere collections of atoms fortuitously thrown together and thus without law evolving law, but down to the smallest atom all is soul and spirit ever evolving under the rule of law which is inherent in the whole. Theosophy teaches that the course of evolution is the drama of the soul and that nature exists for no other purpose than the soul's experience. SCALES OF INTELLIGENCE -- THE SAGES The Theosophist agrees that there must be beings in the universe whose intelligence is much beyond ours, and those possessing such advanced intelligence take an active and cooperative part in the government of the natural order of things. They are the active, and wise assistants of Nature, [the UNIVERSE] as a whole. The Theosophist adds that such Wise Sages are Intelligences which were once human, and came like all of us from other and previous worlds. The most intelligent being in the universe, man, has never, been without a friend, but has a line of Elder Brothers who continually watch over our progress, preserve the knowledge gained through aeons of trial and experience, and continually seek for opportunities of drawing the developing intelligence of the race to consider the great truths concerning the destiny of the soul. UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION -- ITS RECORDS This immense reach of the evolutionary system means, that this planet on which we now are, is the result of the activity and the evolution of some earlier one that died long ago. It left its energy to be used in the bringing into existence the earth. Further, the inhabitants of the Earth, in their turn, came from some older world. They are now proceeding with their destined work in the "matter" we are familiar with here. The Elder Brothers of the human race, keep the knowledge they have gained of the laws of nature in all departments, and are ready when cyclic law permits to use it for the benefit of mankind. They have always existed as a body, all knowing each other, no matter in what part of the world they may be, and all working for the race in many different ways. [see ISIS UNVEILED, Vol. 2, pp. 98-103] They have stood by the cradle of nations and seen the vast achievements of the ancients, watched sadly the decay of those who had no power to resist the cyclic law of rise and fall; and while cataclysms seemed to show a universal destruction of art, architecture, religion, and philosophy, they have preserved the records of it all in places secure from the ravages of either men or time. They have made minute observations, through trained psychics among their own order, into the unseen realms of nature and of mind, recorded the observations, and have preserved the record. And, greater feat than all -- one which implies a knowledge of the very foundations of nature -- they know what the ultimate divisions of time are and what are the meaning and the times of the cycles. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I, pp. 272-3 ] CYCLES OF KNOWLEDGE AND EVOLUTION Under cyclic law, during a dark period in the history of mind, the true philosophy disappears for a time, but the same law causes it to reappear. It is the Master's work to preserve the true philosophy, but the help of the companions is needed to rediscover and promulgate it. The periods, when out of the Great Unknown there comes forth the visible universes, are eternal in their coming and going. These alternate with equal periods of silence and rest in that Unknown. The object of these mighty waves is the production of Perfect Man, the evolution of Soul, and they always witness the increase of the number of Elder Brothers. THEOSOPHY DEALS WITH OUR EARTH IN THE UNIVERSE The teachings of Theosophy deal for the present with our earth, although its purview extends to all the worlds, since no part of the manifested universe is outside the single body of laws which operate upon us. Our globe being one of the solar system is certainly connected with other planets, but as the great human family has to remain with its material vehicle -- the earth -- until all the units of the race which are ready, are perfected, the evolution of that family is of greater importance to the members of it. SEVEN-FOLD NATURE AND MAN -- " 7 PRINCIPLES" The universe evolves from the unknown, on seven planes, and in seven ways in all worlds. And this sevenfold differentiation causes all the worlds of the universe, and the beings thereon, to have a septenary constitution. The divisions of the sevenfold universe may be laid down roughly as: The Absolute, Spirit, Mind, Matter, Will, Akasa or AEther, and Life. In place of "the Absolute" we can use the word "Space." For "Space" is that which ever is, and in which all manifestation must take place. Our knowledge begins with differentiation, and all manifested objects, beings, or powers are only differentiations of the Great Unknown. The most that can be said of the Absolute" is that IT periodically differentiates itself, and periodically withdraws the differentiated into itself. As to "the Absolute," we can do no more than say IT IS. None of the Great Teachers of the School ascribe qualities to "the Absolute," although all qualities exist in It. The first differentiation -- speaking metaphysically as to time -- is Spirit, with which appears Matter and Mind. This is a Unit, and, called the "Monad." [ In manifestation, it is a triune Unity, consisting of: ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS, or, Spirit - Wisdom - Mind] The Monad is held to be immortal throughout the great life-cycle, whether Manvantara or Kalpa. It is the basis for human Individuality. The term "Akasa," taken from the Sanskrit, is used in place of AEther, to properly designate that tenuous state of matter which is now sometimes called "Ether" by modern science. Akasa is produced from Matter and Spirit. Will is the force of Spirit in action. And Life (Jiva) is a resultant of the action of Akasa, moved by Spirit, upon Matter. But the Matter here spoken of, is not that which is commonly known as such. It is the Real Matter which is always invisible, and has sometimes been called Primordial Matter. In the Brahmanical system it is called "Mulaprakriti" (or "Root Matter"). And it is sometimes referred to as "Maha-Buddhi." [In considering this, one may think of an "atom" as essentially an eternal, individualized field of electro-magnetic Force. Physical material is condensed in and around it by attraction. The formation of worlds, and the reincarnation of human Souls, may be thought of in similar terms, and follow a similar pattern.] The ancient teaching always held, as is now admitted by Science, that we see or perceive only the phenomena but not the essential nature, cause or being of Matter. UNIVERSAL PLAN OF MANIFESTATION Mind (the Universal Mind or Mahat) is the intelligent part of the Cosmos. In the collection of seven differentiations roughly sketched above, Universal Mind is that in which the Plan of the Cosmos is fixed or contained. This Plan is brought over from a prior period of manifestation, which added to its ever-increasing perfectness as it proceeds. No limit can be set to its evolutionary possibilities in perfectness, because, as there was never any beginning to the periodical manifestations of "the Absolute," there never will be an end, but forever the going forth and withdrawing into the Unknown will go on. Wherever a world or system of worlds is evolving there the Plan has been laid down in Universal Mind, the original force comes from Spirit, the basis is Matter -- which is in fact invisible -- Life sustains all the forms, and Akasa is the connecting link between Matter on one side and Spirit-Mind on the other. END OF A CYCLE -- CATACLYSMS - DELUGES When a world or a system comes to the end of certain great cycles, men record a cataclysm in history or tradition. These universal traditions abound, all pointing to early teaching and dim recollection of periodical destructions and renovations. Just as there are periodical minor cataclysms or partial destructions, so, the doctrine holds, there is, as a prototype, the universal evolution and involution. Forever the Great Breath goes forth and returns again. As it proceeds outwards, objects, worlds and men appear; as it recedes all disappear into the original source. This is the waking and the sleeping of the "Great Being;" and is symbolized as the "Day" and the "Night" of Brahma. It is the prototype of our waking days and sleeping nights as men, and, of our disappearance at the end of one short human life, and, it also implies our return (through reincarnation) to take up our unfinished work in a new body, in a new day. HOW OLD IS OUR EARTH? The real age of the world has long been involved in doubt for Western investigators, who up to the present have shown unwillingness to take instruction from the records of Oriental people much older than the West. Yet with the Orientals is the truth about the matter. EVOLUTION RECORDED IN BRAHMANICAL RECORDS No mind can comprehend the "Infinite and Absolute Unknown," which IS, has no beginning and shall have no end; which IS both last and first, because, whether differentiated or withdrawn into ITSELF, IT ever is. This is the "God" spoken of as the one around whose pavilion there is darkness. This cosmic and human chronology of the Hindus may still be laughed at by western Orientalists and Scientists, yet they can furnish nothing better and are continually disagreeing with each other on the same subject. As years pass since Theosophy was promulgated, Science has come closer in their estimates to the figures of the Oriental chronology. The Brahmanical records of Hindustan, and their doctrine about the days, nights, years and life of Brahma, who representing the universe and the worlds, at once upset the interpretation so long given to the Mosaic tradition, insofar as time is concerned. The Day of Brahma is said to last one thousand years, and his night is of equal length. This may be construed to be a statement of the periodical coming forth, for great days and nights of equal length of the universe of manifested worlds. A Day of Brahma is made up of what are called Manvantaras -- or period between two men -- fourteen in number. These include four billion three hundred and twenty million mortal, or earth years, which is one Day of Brahma. [4,320,000,000 years] And Brahma's "Night" is of similar duration, when all is periodically withdrawn into the "Unknown Absolute." When this day opens, cosmic evolution, so far as relates to this solar system, begins and occupies between one and two billions of years in evolving the very ethereal first matter before the astral kingdoms of mineral, vegetable, animal and men are possible. PLANS AND MATERIAL IN EVOLUTION In these the, very distant and very silent past, Man could not have his bodily temple to live in, until all the matter in and about his world had been found by the Master, the spiritual and eternal Inner Man. Once found, the plans for working it required to be carried out in detail, until all the parts should be perfectly ready and fit for placing in the final structure. This is the gradual coming forth of the known and heterogeneous from the unknown and homogeneous. The ancient Egyptian and Hindu Theosophists never admitted a creation out of nothing, but ever strenuously insisted upon evolution, by gradual stages. All the various powers and potentialities needed, had to be well worked out in this slow but sure process. At last man is put upon the scene: a sevenfold being, a miniature of the universe and earth, which are sevenfold. Each of Man's seven principles is derived from one of the great first seven divisions. And each relates to a planet, by analogy, or a scene of evolution; and to a race in which that evolution was carried out. So the first sevenfold differentiation is important to be borne in mind, since it is the basis of all that follows; just as the universal evolution is septenary so the evolution of humanity, sevenfold in its constitution, is carried out upon a septenary Earth. This is spoken of in Theosophical literature as the Sevenfold Planetary Chain, and is intimately connected with Man's special evolution. [see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I, pp. 570-574] CONSOLIDATION OF MATERIALS AND FORMS This second step takes some three hundred millions of years, and then still more material processes go forward for the production of the tangible (physical matter) kingdoms of nature, including man. This covers over one and one-half billions of years. And the number of solar years included in the present "human" period is over eighteen millions of years. [SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I, pp. 150, footnote] During all these ages before man's physical body came into being, evolution was carrying on the work of perfecting various powers which are now our possession. This was accomplished by the Ego or Real Man going through experience in countless conditions of matter, all different one from the other, and the same plan in general was and is pursued as prevails in respect to the general evolution of the universe. That is, details were first worked out in spheres of being very ethereal, metaphysical, in fact. Then the next step brought the same details to be worked out on a plane of matter a little more dense, until at last it could be done on our present plane of what we miscall "gross matter." This is called the "descent of Spirit into Matter." When the rough work was completed, when the human "temple" was erected, many more ages were required for all the servants, and the councilors to learn their parts, so that man, the Master, might be able to use the physical temple for its best and highest purposes. Theosophy alone, inclusive of all systems and every experience, gives the key, the plan, the doctrine, the truth of these great natural processes. To state it in another way. The Plan comes first in the Universal Mind, after which the astral model or basis is made, and when that astral model is completed, the whole process is gone over so as to condense the matter, up to the middle of the Fourth Round. In the vast stretch of time which began after the first almost intangible matter had been gathered and kneaded, the material and vegetable kingdoms had sole possession here with the Master -- man -- who was hidden from sight, within, carrying forward the plans for the foundations of the human temple. All of this requires many, many ages, since we know that nature never leaps. It is stated that the stream of Monads begins first to work up the mass of matter in what are called elemental conditions when all is gaseous or fiery. For the ancient and true theory is that no evolution is possible without the "Monads" as the innumerable vivifying agents. In this first stage there is no animal or vegetable. Next comes the mineral when the whole mass hardens, the Monads being all imprisoned within. Then the first Monads emerge into vegetable forms which they construct themselves, and no animals yet appear. Next the first class of Monads emerges from the vegetable and gradually produce the animal forms. Then, the human astral and shadowy model is constructed, and we have minerals, vegetables, animals and future men, for the second and later classes are still evolving in the lower kingdoms. Upon this earth and upon the whole chain of Globes of which it is a part seven races of men appeared simultaneously, coming over to it from other globes of an older chain. And in respect to this earth -- the fourth of this chain -- these seven races came simultaneously from another Globe of this chain. This appearance of seven races together happens in the first and in part of the second Round of the globes. In the second round the seven masses of beings are amalgamated, and their destiny after that is to slowly differentiate during the succeeding rounds until at the seventh round the seven first great races will be once more distinct, as perfect types of the human race as this period of evolution will allow. At the present time the seven races are mixed together, and representatives of all are in the many so-called races of men as classified by our present science. The object of this amalgamation and subsequent differentiation is to give to every race the benefit of the progress and power of the whole derived from prior progress in other planets and systems. For Nature never does her work in a hasty or undue fashion, but, by the sure method of mixture, precipitation, and separation, brings about the greatest perfection. And this method was one known to the Alchemists, though not fully understood in all its bearings even by them. But there is no vagueness on the point that seven great "Races, or types" have to evolve here on this planet, and that the entire collection of races has to go seven times round the whole series of seven Globes. When the middle of the Fourth Round is reached no more Monads emerge into the human stage, and will not until a new planetary mass, reincarnated from ours, is made. This is the whole process roughly given, but with many details left out, for in one of the Rounds man appears before the animals. But this detail need lead to no confusion. What has become at last "man" is of vastly greater age, for before the present two sexes appeared, the human creature was sometimes of one shape and sometimes of another, until the whole plan had been fully worked out into our present form, function, and capacity. This is found referred to in ancient books, where man is said to have been at one time globular in shape. This was at a time when the conditions favored such a form, and of course, it was longer ago than eighteen millions of years. And when this globular form was the rule, the sexes as we know them, had not differentiated and hence there was but one sex, or if one prefers, no sex at all. Human beings did not appear here in two sexes first. The first were of no sex, then they altered into hermaphrodite, and lastly separated into male and female. And this separation into male and female for human beings was over 18,000,000 years ago. For that reason is it said, in these ancient schools, that our humanity is 18,000,000 years old and a little over. SENSES OF PERCEPTION AND ACTION In these early conditions and states, the senses existed in germ, as it were, or in idea, until the astral plane which is next to this one was first arrived at, and then they were concentrated so as to become the actual senses we now use through the agency of the outer physical organs. These outer organs of sight, touch and hearing, smelling and tasting, are often mistaken by the unlearned or the thoughtless for the real organs and senses; but he who stops to think, must see that the senses are interior, and that their outer organs are but mediators, or links, between the visible universe and the real perceiver within. MONADIC EVOLUTION Considering our Earth, the view put forward by Theosophy regarding its genesis, its evolution and the evolution of the Human, Animal and other Monads, is quite different from modern ideas, and in some things contrary to accepted theories. We find that the Scientific theories of today are not stable. They change with each century, while the Theosophical one never alters. It is the result of age-old and continuous verification by the Elder Brothers. These have now caused its repromulgation and pointed to its confirmation in ancient books and traditions. To them, it is a statement of facts in nature. The modern Scientific theories in an attempt to speculatively rebuild an unknown past, are, on the contrary, always doubtful, changeable, and continually altered. There are continuous attempts to secure proof of these theories, but nothing has proved conclusive so far. ROUNDS, GLOBES, RACES The sevenfold Earth is a living oneness -- a sentient entity -- and not a mere lump of gross matter. Being an entity of a septenary nature, there must be six other Globes which roll with it in space. This company of seven Globes has been called the "Earth Chain," or, the "Planetary Chain." To make this concept clear Theosophy states: The earth is one of seven globes, in respect to man's consciousness only, because when he functions on one of the seven he perceives it as a distinct globe and does not see the other six. This is in perfect correspondence with man himself who has six other constituents of which only the gross body is visible to him because he is now functioning on the physical Earth, or the fourth Globe -- and his body represents the Earth. We have a statement that these Globes are united in one mass, each interpenetrating the others, but differing from each other in substance, and, that this difference of substance is due to change of center of consciousness. To explain further: The whole seven "Globes" constitute one single mass or Great Globe, and they all interpenetrate each other. We have to say "Globe," because the ultimate shape is globular or spherical. In studying the diagrams used in the Secret Doctrine to illustrate the scheme, one has to pay close attention to the accompanying explanations and cautions given by H. P. Blavatsky. Both she and her Adept teachers say, that the seven globes of our chain are in "coadunition with each other but not in consubstantiality." [Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, p. 166, 200] This is further enforced by cautions not to rely on statistics, or plane surface diagrams, but to look at the metaphysical and spiritual aspect of the theory as stated in English. THE EARTH HAS REINCARNATED The Earth Chain of seven Globes as thus defined is the direct reincarnation of a former chain of seven Globes, and that former family of seven was the Moon chain, the moon itself being the visible representative of the fourth Globe of the old chain. When that former vast entity composed of the Moon and six others, all united in one mass, reached its limit of life, it died just as any being dies. Each one of the seven sent its energies into space and gave similar life or vibration to cosmic dust -- matter, -- and the total cohesive force of the whole kept the seven energies together. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I pp. 152-154, 171-181 ] This resulted in the evolving of the present Earth Chain of seven centers of energy or evolution combined in one mass. As the Moon was the fourth of the old series it is on the same plane of perception as the Earth, and as we are now confined in our consciousness largely to Earth, we are only able to see one of the old seven -- our Moon. When we are functioning on any of the other seven planes of consciousness, we will perceive the corresponding old corpse as a Moon. EVOLUTION PASSING FROM GLOBE TO GLOBE The whole number of Monads now going through evolution on our Earth Chain came over from the old seven Globes which I have described. This mass of Egos has also been called a "life wave," meaning the stream of Monads. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I pp 171-175 ] It reached this planetary mass, represented to our consciousness by our central point -- our Earth, and began on Globe A or No. I, coming like an army, or river. The first portion began on Globe A and went through a long evolution there in bodies suited to such a state of matter, and then passed on to B, and so on through the whole seven greater states of consciousness which have been called Globes. When the first portion left A, others streamed in and pursued the same course, the whole army proceeding with regularity round the septenary route. This journey went on for four circlings round the whole, and then the whole stream or army of Egos from the old Moon Chain had arrived, and being complete, no more entered after the middle of the Fourth Round. The same circling process of these differently arrived classes goes on for seven complete "Rounds" of the whole seven planetary centers of consciousness, and when the seven are ended as much perfection as is possible in the immense period occupied, will have been attained, and then this chain or mass of "Globes" will die in its turn to give birth to still another series. Hence we have the Rounds and Races. These are all periods of time. The Round is a circling of the seven centers [Globes] of planetary consciousness. [ S D I 200 ] "RACES" The Race, is the racial development on one of those seven. [This has nothing to do with our modern definition of ethnic "races," or of the color of the skin.] "Race" as used in Theosophy is a period of time. There are seven Races for each Globe, but the total of forty-nine Races only makes up seven Great Races, (the special septenate of Races on each Globe or planetary center composing in reality one race of seven constituents or special peculiarities of function and power). As no complete Race could be evolved in a moment on any Globe, the slow, orderly processes of nature, which allow no jumps, must proceed by appropriate means. Hence Sub-Races have to be evolved one after the other before the Perfect Root Race is formed. Then the Root Race sends off its offshoots while it is declining and preparing for the advent of the next Great Race. Illustrating this, it is taught that on the Americas is to be evolved the new -- sixth -- Race; and here all the races of the earth are now engaged in a great amalgamation from which will result a very highly developed Sub-Race, after which others will be evolved by similar processes until the new one is completed. Between the end of any great Race and the beginning of another there is a period of rest, so far as the globe is concerned, for then the stream of human Egos leaves it for another one of the chain in order to go on with further evolution of powers and faculties there. PERFECTION AND THE END OF EVOLUTION Each one of the Globes is used by evolutionary law for the development of seven "Races," and of senses, faculties and powers appropriate to that state of matter. (the experience of the whole seven Globes being needed to make a perfect development in man's consciousness and character). Upon this earth and upon the whole chain of Globes of which it is a part seven races of men appeared simultaneously, their destiny is to slowly differentiate during the succeeding rounds until at the seventh round the seven first great races will be once more distinct, as perfect types of the human race as this period of evolution will allow. At the present time the seven races are mixed together, and representatives of all are in the many so-called races of men as classified by our present science. The object of this amalgamation and subsequent differentiation is to give to every race the benefit of the progress and power of the whole derived from prior progress in other planets and systems. For Nature never does her work in a hasty or undue fashion, but, by the sure method of mixture, precipitation, and separation, brings about the greatest perfection. But when the last, the seventh Race has appeared and fully perfected itself, in the 7th Round and the 7th Globe, a great dissolution comes on, similar to that which preceded the birth of the earth's chain. Then the world disappears as a tangible thing, and so far as the human ear is concerned there is silence. This, it is said, is the root of the belief so general, that the world will come to an end, that there will be a judgment-day, or that there have been in the past, universal floods, earthquakes, submergences of continents, or fires. Subsequent to that, which is our future, the whole mass is spiritualized with full consciousness and the entire body of globes raised up to a higher plane of development. [Extracts from the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY by W Q Judge] ============================== trust this may be of help Dallas ===================== -----Original Message----- From: wry [ Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 1:06 AM To: Subject: Re: "root races" Hi. I am still waiting for an answer to the question, below. I have often wondered about this. ----- Original Message ----- From: "wry From llkingston2@juno.com Sat Dec 28 07:06:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 15:06:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 76013 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 15:06:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 15:06:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.bos.untd.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 15:06:38 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8Q0aS//Cy8GuLtd9GaziRKYKcahdnHIX+w=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.bos.untd.com (jqueuemail) id HL5HWDEJ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 10:05:55 EST To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:52:14 -0500 Subject: Why Study the Root Races? Message-ID: <20021228.095522.-721673.1.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,6-7,24-25,43-44,55-56,64-67 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 The question has been asked as to why Theosophy spends time studying the Seven Root Races of Globe D in the 4th Round. Why was this material written in the first place? What is it's relevence for our time? One might just as well ask what is the purpose of the entire SECRET DOCTRINE as the discussion of the Root Races is just one component of a much larger work which deals with similar matters. 1-First, keep in mind that the SD was written as the title page suggests as "the synthesis of science, religion, and philosophy." This is a much deeper continuation of the work done in ISIS UNVEILED. In both works, the assertions of religion and science are examined and answered according to the understandings of the ancient wisdom of the secret doctrine. But it is more than a simple "putting down" of religion and science. Rather, as a synthesis, SD goes between the lines to show the hidden meanings in many world religious teachings and also to fill in the gaps and straighten out the theories of science. It also attempts to show that rather than the purely mechanical evolution that science has theorized. evolution is in fact "directed" by higher powers and thus has a spiritual goal rather than a random life of its own. On the other hand, the various "creationist" myths of religion are shown for what the really are and harmonized with the teachings of science. To this end, SD first needs to outline in detail what teaching are, including the subject of the Root Races and then compares/contrasts them to the teachings of religion and science. 2-As Dallas has pointed out in another place, these teachings about ancient races are not just some historical meanderings for intellectual perusal. these teachings are ABOUT US! WE each lived countless incarnations in each of these Root Races. So it shows what our own progress has been, outlines what the future holds and thus places our lives in an eternal perspective. Knowing this, and coming to believe it, helps one get a grip on why we are here and what is expected of us. We are NOT some creature fashioned by the whim of some personal god to exist for his/her pleasure to end up around some eternal throne spending eternity in adulation! Neither are we just some chance of nature, the result of random co-mingling of molecules and the chance evolution to what we are now only to be one day rendered extinct and of no consequence but only a flash in the cosmic randomess that is our universe. We are each an eternal monad, ever progressing, ever evolving, taking back steps now and then ,faltering perhaps, but overall continuing on an eternal course which is charted, directed and sure. This earthly flesh will indeed wither and die but the monad continues and incarnates again and again, progressing spiritually towards higher forms and experiences. HPB writes that this is not for everyone at this time. Most scoff at all this and view it as nonsense (even a number on this list) But this is understandable and expected. She writes in the last paragraph of the SD introduction vol I: xlvi "The errors of the day must be explained and swept away, yet it is more than probable--and in the present case it amounts to certitude--that once more the testimony of long ages and of history will fail to inpress anyone but the very intuitional--which is equal to saying the very few. But in this as in all cases, the TRUE and the FAITHFUL may console themselves by presenting the sceptical modern Sadducee with the mathematical proff and memorial of his obdurate abstinacy and bigotry." So this is what it's about. You might be interested to know that on the list I moderate (BN-study) one of the things I am currently doing is a study of those very Root Races, extecting from the SD what we know about each and preparing a chart which will at a glance compare and contrast them. Certainly not for everyone! earlier in the year we went through the Bibical Book of Genesis and cited the relevant SD quote which explain the hidden meaning to those passages. Again, an exercize for the few. But ant interested are invited to share with us. (I owe you one Eldon) Hope this offers some understanding Larry ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Dec 28 08:09:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 89572 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.249] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 16:09:36 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Panikkar and SECRET DOCTRINE Nasadiya Sukta verses compared Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 344 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote in posting http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9999: > FOR YOUR COMPARISON BELOW ARE BOTH PROF. R. PANIKKAR'S AND HPB'S > PUBLISHED VERSES FROM THE RIG VEDIC HYMN THE NASADIYA SUKTA. Bhakti Ananda Goswami, So what exactly is your point? What should we conclude from this comparison? Daniel From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Dec 28 08:49:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 16:49:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 4744 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 16:49:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 16:49:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 16:49:28 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-094-121.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.94.121] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SK9P-0000Cv-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 08:49:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3E0DD615.F699FD54@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:49:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World: "root races" References: <3E0A6276.4E3F6170@sprynet.com> <000901c2ac8c$ac4b2540$efd30b3f@idapingala> <009101c2ae50$688d42a0$fbd30b3f@idapingala> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 wry wrote: > Hi. I am still waiting for an answer to the question, below. I have > often wondered about this. A student once went to Socrates, and was asked what the practical use of some branch of mathematics was. He was promptly ejected from Socrates' school. > Regarding the "root races," what possible FUNCTION can this concept > provide, whatever it refers to? It is an oxymoron, as it useless, as > far as I can see, and serves no function in the application of any > kind of practical metaphysics (spiritual development of human beings.) It's an attempt to help approximate information which cannot be gained precisely due to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Bart Lidofsky From dhyana@web.de Sat Dec 28 09:17:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 17:17:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 56229 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 17:17:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 17:17:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 17:17:06 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gBSHH1w13544 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:17:01 +0100 Received: from captain28u015g (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gBSHGxF13522 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:16:59 +0100 Message-ID: <01fb01c2ae95$02978600$0100007f@captain28u015g> To: References: <018301c2ae3e$8eba61e0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:46:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.199 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >for all. [Genesis, 16, 12] In Jewish tradition, [much before Arabic invasion >into Palestine], mentioned that the Jews will rule Palestine for 1300 years, And me thought it were the Jews, the black magican outcasts of India, the Non-Brahmans, the A-Brahams, the Abrahams, who invaded Palestine! The Palestine and Israel of the Thorah are no geographical, political, physical things but terms of the initiation chamber of the Aryans. Those Jews who claim otherwise have only stolen Aryan thought and Aryan history and make a parody of it. Why does that remind me on Annie Besant and Leadbeater? Beware of the day the theosophical circles are becoming nothing else than Freemasonry bodies! Frank From dhyana@web.de Sat Dec 28 09:17:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 17:17:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 12151 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 17:17:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 17:17:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 17:17:22 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id gBSHHHS13619 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:17:17 +0100 Received: from captain28u015g (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id gBSHHFF13597 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:17:15 +0100 Message-ID: <01fe01c2ae95$0c247070$0100007f@captain28u015g> To: References: <3E0A6276.4E3F6170@sprynet.com> <000901c2ac8c$ac4b2540$efd30b3f@idapingala> <009101c2ae50$688d42a0$fbd30b3f@idapingala> Subject: Re: Theos-World: "root races" Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:09:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.199 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >First of all, ALL human beings alive today are Aryans. But that is not the standpoint of Blavatsky and de Purucker. Both taught that the majority of mankind still belongs to the 4th root race, whereas the Aryans are the 5th root race. How can it be otherwise as the Earth is still in its 4th round? And of course has every root race its degenerated species. How could it be otherwise? The point is - morally speaking - that this degeneration is relatively and not absolute. That different races imply a different way of thinking is best proven by the 1st aim of the TS: Universal Brotherhood. The Jews coin this aim to a Master race ideology where the Jews are ruling the world from a world government, enslaving all the non-Jewish nations. The Aryan interpretation is quite different from the Jewish one. Aryans (like HPB, Judge, Tingley, Purucker) think that all races and nations have the same rights and duties and should cooperate in fair exchange and harmony. This way of thinking was well outspoken in the motto of Kaiser Wilhelm II. of Germany: "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen!", which in my humble translation is something like: "The world shall be healed through the German essence!" This motto points to the buddhi level, the spiritual world. The aggressive, imperialistic anglo-saxony warfare mind coined this German motto down to their materialistic level, accusing the Germans of having this imperialistic plans which only the City of London have had (Churchill: "The USA will be the muscles of the British brain" - so it is until today! The Americans are a very young race as HPB clearly warns us in the SD). That the Aryan thought is quite the opposite and the soulless, materialistic and satanic Jewish way of thinking is merely the antithesis of the Aryan thought defended by noble Theosophists like HPB, Judge, Tingley, Purucker can be seen from the fact that the Jews announced WWI WWII and were pround of it that they were able to kill millions of people. Now they announce WWIII as they are convinced Armageddon is coming in 2020 and their fake Messias (Satan-Jahve) will only appear when they have slaughtered the half of mankind. As there are a mass of leading Jews and Zionists who wrote about that facts you will hardly cant it away. The TS was founded to bring about a peaceful reform for the masses. Every true religious Jew will understand that, the more he/she/it is familiar with theosophical doctrines. In that true theosophical understanding is the dead letter abuse of the Thora the real anti-semitism. It is the same idea Rudolf Steiner had in mind when he critized in 1917 the first Zionist Congress in Basle of 1897, that those who misuse the Jewish religion for political purposes are doing harm to the Jews. The same idea was expressed by the Blavatsky Lodge with the introduction to and the republication of "The Hebrew Talisman" with clear warnings. Also you can find several clear warnings through the volumes of The Theosophical Path under Katherine Tingley, who served always for the Aryan cause. Frank From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Dec 28 09:20:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 17:20:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 64364 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 17:20:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 17:20:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 17:20:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.135] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 17:20:38 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 17:20:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: B.A.G. on Blavatsky, the Mahatmas and Serapis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4631 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell " X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=43554266 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Bhakti Ananda Goswami, You wrote in part: "In HPB's time and culture, it would have been extremely difficult for her to 'be her/ HIM SELF'. Thus, HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' MASCULINE GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS. The men she IDENTIFIED WITH were like the Kashmiri Rajas. Thus her 'mystical form' as SERAPIS was like these heroic figures. She was not a girl or women in awe of them, 'she' felt 'herself' to BE ONE OF THEM. For her, the life of HPB was probably less real than that of her Mahatmas, especially Master SERAPIS, whom she identified with." Quoted from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9952 I'm wondering exactly how you came to these conclusions. Is this just mere speculation on your part or do you have some evidence that would verify your "psychoanalytic" assessment? Furthermore, it is hard to understand exactly what you are getting out. For example, you write: "Thus, HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' MASCULINE GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS." What exactly does that mean? Can you relate this vague statement of yours, for example, to the following two accounts? Here is the first account. In "Old Diary Leaves," Volume II, pp. 254-255, Colonel Olcott wrote of his encounter with a Master on Oct. 26, 1880 at the Golden Temple at Amritsar, India: "At a shrine where the swords, sharp steel discs, coats of mail, and other warlike weapons of the Sikh warrior priests are exposed to view in charge of the akalis, I was greeted, to my surprise and joy, with a loving smile by one of the Masters, who for the moment was figuring among the guardians, and who gave each of us [HPB and Olcott] a fresh rose, with a blessing in his eyes." In Olcott's own handwritten diary, the entry for October 26, 1880 reads: "...In the afternoon we went to the Golden Temple again & found it as lovely as before. Saw some hundreds of fakirs & gossains more or less ill-favored. A Brother there saluted H.P.B. and me & gave us each a rose." B.A.G., how does this encounter with a Master relate to your statement that "HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' MASCULINE GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS." Or take the second account. Colonel Olcott tells us: "[On July 15, 1879, Mahatma Morya] visited me in the flesh at Bombay, coming in full daylight, and on horseback. He had me called by a servant into the front room of HPB's bungalow (she being at the time in the other bungalow talking with those who were there). He came to scold me roundly for something I had done in TS matters, and as HPB was also to blame, he telegraphed to her to come, that is to say, he turned his face and extended his finger in the direction of the place she was in. She came over at once with a rush and, seeing him, dropped on her knees and paid him reverence. My voice and his had been heard by those in the other bungalow, but only HPB and I, and the servant saw him." Quoted from: Hume, A. O. Hints on Esoteric Theosophy, No. 1: Is Theosophy a Delusion? Do the Brothers Exist? Calcutta, India: Calcutta Central Press, 1882. In Colonel Olcott's diary for July 15, 1879, the following entry is written: "[I] had visit in body of the Sahib!! [He] sent Babula to my room to call me to HPB's bungalow, and there we had a most important private interview. Alas! how puerile and vain these men make one feel by contrast with them." Please tell us B.A.G. how your statements quoted at the beginning of this posting relate to these two encounters with HPB's Masters. As regards your vague statements about Serapis, can your relate your statement to the testimonies I gave in the following posting? See my posting at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9959 Daniel H. Caldwell --------------------------------------- BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com Publishes rare & hard-to-find source documents on Madame H.P. Blavatsky. --------------------------------------- ESOTERIC WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/esotericworldam.htm This book contains a unique collection of rare reminiscences of H.P. Blavatsky's life. --------------------------------------- Theosophyonthe.NET http://theosophyonthe.net Easy Net Access to the Classics of Theosophy --------------------------------------- Theosophy.INFO http://theosophy.info Introductions to Theosophy --------------------------------------- You can always access our main site BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Dec 28 09:26:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 17:26:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 60791 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 17:26:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 17:26:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 17:26:46 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-094-121.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.94.121] helo=sprynet.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SKjV-0002tU-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:26:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3E0DDED8.82EBF3D1@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 12:26:48 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World: "root races" References: <3E0A6276.4E3F6170@sprynet.com> <000901c2ac8c$ac4b2540$efd30b3f@idapingala> <009101c2ae50$688d42a0$fbd30b3f@idapingala> <01fe01c2ae95$0c247070$0100007f@captain28u015g> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > But that is not the standpoint of Blavatsky and de Purucker. Both > taught that the majority of mankind still belongs to the 4th root > race, whereas the Aryans are the 5th root race. How can it be > otherwise as the Earth is still in its 4th round? Because there are two paths of evolution; physical and spiritual. Physical is discontinuous, and spiritual is continuous. Although everybody has 5th root race bodies, not everybody is using the yet-not-fully-developed buddhi manas (higher mind), spending most of the time using the fully developed kama manas (emotion/desire driven mind). Bart Lidofsky From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Dec 28 10:38:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 18:38:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 83649 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 18:38:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 18:38:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 18:38:33 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-05-43.look.ca ([216.154.45.234] helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 18SLqv-00054n-00; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:38:30 +0000 Message-ID: <3E0DF06B.C9F588C6@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:41:47 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Cc: Theosophy Study List Subject: re BAG, Dallas, logic, "sense making," etc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.7 required=7.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_XM, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.43 X-Spam-Level: From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Those who have a strongish preference for "studied" or "unstudied verbosity" (the latter as per whoever that was who used that description recently on Theos Talk) might be better off not trying to decipher my "intended meaning," in general. This post being, I suspect, a case in point. Dallas wrote: <> But if we tend to over confine "our study to observation and common sense" in terms of "rigorous logic," as if that kind of approach toward defining reality/truth had a p/Primary importance in our lives, (ie, as if "p/Primary importance" could be fully dualicized, conventionalized, exoterized, scientized in keeping with [nothing but?] various or "certain" "logical initial assumptions"?), then where could one be going with that kind of general approach if it's extended even to one's "Theosophic studies"? Of course if that kind of wording is interpreted just with simple logic, (or just with the likes of "studied" or "unstudied verbosity"?) well ... That is, while "rigorous logic" may have many mainstream/exoteric, very apparently, or real enough useful roles in our lives, (ie, "proving" and "disproving" this and that as per whatever initial assumptions one might adopt, or tend to adopt, from time to time), I suspect that part of "the study of Theosophy" might include the cultivation of, say, "a broader perspective," whereby one at least tries not to completely attach one's allegiance, motivation, scientizing, modeling, thinking, speculation, etc, to dualistic initial assumptions or too one-sidedly dualistic worldviews too exclusively, but that one might also at least try to keep in mind one's sense of (at whatever interpretive level ...?) what might be decribed, in Theosophic terms (?), as the "voice of the silence" (as per HPB's book by that title?), by which "voice" I'm referring to that "higher sense" that isn't limited ("ideally," in a sense?) to any speculations, thoughts, or "belief structures" that are seen as based on any mainstream, dualistic, exoteric, apparent particulars or worldviews or essentially dualistic initial assumptions. In other words, as I see it, karma can (and does?) place so many apparent inconsistencies in one's p/Path, often enough, so that an over emphasis on "rigorous logic," as I see it, makes for a fools path, in a sense, in that, (as we all know?), "logic" in this dualistic world is limited to (as HPB might've pointed out?) the kind of reality making that, as a dog chasing its own tail might find out, has no "end" or intrinsic reality aside from it's dualistic, mayavic, karmic, temporary appearance. Speculatively, Mauri PS Sorry about the long sentences. I started off thinking about responding to BAG's response to me with something like "Really?" and that's all. And maybe that might've been just as relevant, in this and most cases, as more of my "unstudied verbosity" (as per whoever that was). But, seeing as this is (apparently?) a Theosophy list ... From jjhe@charter.net Sat Dec 28 10:43:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@charter.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 18:43:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 59153 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 18:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 18:43:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO dc-mx01.cluster1.charter.net) (209.225.8.11) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 18:43:17 -0000 Received: from [68.116.95.164] (HELO pavilion) by dc-mx01.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.9) with ESMTP id 25061469 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:43:16 -0500 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 10:43:28 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c2aea1$03357d40$a45f7444@pavilion> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106201926 Yes, this is my understanding too. Boris believed that HPB, as a result of her training, was able to access this Higher Ego--i.e. attain a state of Buddhic consciousness. I recall him saying that some of her writings came from this higher state, while others, came from a very ordinary state of consciousness. --j -----Original Message----- From: Steve Stubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 7:31 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" wrote: > I do > recall Boris discussing HBP's "hermaphroditism" on several occasions. > However, I clearly recall that in each of these incidents, Boris was (to > my mind) speaking of HPB's "occult nature," not physical > characteristics. In the Kabala Adam Kadmon (literally "the first Adam") is said to have been both male and female and Blavatsky esoterically equated this with the Higher Ego (buddhimanas) so that ahny of us would theoretically be androgynous in our "occult nature.? Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 10:43:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 18:43:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 58551 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 18:43:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 18:43:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 18:43:27 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.128] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 18:43:26 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:43:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <018301c2ae3e$8eba61e0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1593 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.152.232.21 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Etzion Becker wrote: > I have never heard about two Moses. I don't see any mention about volcanos > in the Bible. Read Freud, MOSES AND MONOTHEISM. The Exodus story is filled with references to a volcano, which suggests another hero who lived far to the north of Egypt and whose legend was mistakenly merged with that of the Egyptian Moses by the exodus writer. Apparently this "other" Moses relates to a time when the Hebrews worshipped a volcano, probably with an interest to placating it so it would not destroy their community. The fact that the fellow who compiled and preserved the legends for us mistook these two men for the same person suggests to scholars that they might have had the same name or similar names. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by a volcanic eruption. > Arabs, or the sons of Ishmael were roaming beduins, nomads They were nomads just as the ancient Hebrews were nomads. > In Jewish tradition, [much before Arabic invasion > into Palestine], mentioned that the Jews will rule Palestine for 1300 years, > then the Arabs will rule it for 1300 years. Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the reference. Does the tradition suggest that the first 1300 years begins with the end of the Rxile? Am I interpreting it correctly? > Lord Abraham was about to sacrifice his > son Issac to God. I think you are confused. I heard Alan Dershowitz talk about this legend one time and I believe he said it was Isaac who wanted to sacrifice his son. Dershowitz said he would have had Isaac indicted. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 10:51:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 18:51:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 76407 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 18:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 18:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 18:51:50 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.170] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 18:51:50 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 18:51:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <21.2959819c.2b3eaf56@cs.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 925 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.152.232.21 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, samblo@c... wrote: > Steve, > The permutations from Pharoah Ahmasis to Ahmoses to Amoses to Moses > is an interesting linguistist idiosyncracy. Read Breasted;s THE DAWN OF CONSCIENCE. Ahmose means "child of Ammmon," Thutmose means "child of Thoth," etc. "Mose" therefore means child, and the trailing "s" was added by the translators of the Septuagint. Moses' real name was therefore originally Ahmore, Thutmose, Ptahmose or something like that, and he shortened it after he decided the Egyptians could take a hike. Manetho says he was a priest of yhr Rgyptian god Osiris, which makes sense since according to Bonwick, Mount Sinai was Osiris' birth place. I think Blavatsky referred to that in ISIS UNVEILED. Mount Sinai was never a volcano, though, so the legends about it berinh a volcano then are clearly from the story of another ancient tribal hero. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Dec 28 11:03:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:03:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 79744 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:03:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:03:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:03:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.249] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 19:03:12 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:03:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Panikkar and SECRET DOCTRINE Nasadiya Sukta verses compared Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 895 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.39 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn DEAR MR. CALDWELL, IT IS SIMPLY AN IDENTIFICATION OF THE TEXT. RATHER THAN RELYING ON MY TESTIMONY THAT THEY ARE THE SAME HYMN, I HAVE PROVIDED THEM BOTH FOR YOUR COMPARISON THAT IS ALL. WHY DOES THERE NEED TO BE ANY MORE OR ULTERIOR MOTIVE OR THING TO CONCLUDE ? I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO BRING MY KNOWLEDGE AS A VAISHNAVA SANSKRIT SCHOLAR INTO THE SERVICE OF IDENTIFYING HPB's SOURCES, WHICH IS ALL THAT I AM DOING. BEST WISHES, BA G --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell " wrote: > Bhakti Ananda Goswami wrote in posting > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/9999: > > > FOR YOUR COMPARISON BELOW ARE BOTH PROF. R. PANIKKAR'S AND HPB'S > > PUBLISHED VERSES FROM THE RIG VEDIC HYMN THE NASADIYA SUKTA. > > Bhakti Ananda Goswami, > > So what exactly is your point? What should we conclude from this > comparison? > > Daniel From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Dec 28 11:04:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:04:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 1257 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:04:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:04:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.48) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:04:29 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-094-121.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.94.121] helo=sprynet.com) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18SMG5-00043R-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:04:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3E0DF5C0.8520CBCC@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 14:04:32 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 "Steve Stubbs " wrote: > of the Egyptian Moses by the exodus writer. Apparently this "other" > Moses relates to a time when the Hebrews worshipped a volcano, > probably with an interest to placating it so it would not destroy > their community. However, this "volcano worship" is a matter of pure speculation based on word-twisting, not a matter of historical fact. Bart From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 11:12:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:12:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 62883 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:12:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:12:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.77) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:12:03 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.189] by n21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 19:12:03 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:12:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism TYPO CORRECTED AND CLARIFICATION Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1483 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.152.232.21 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Deat BAG: Many thanks for your interesting comments. Yes, psychiatrists consider GID to be "non-specific aetiology," which means it exists, but cannot be traced to any specific medical condition. Your comments are very thought proboking indeed. I certainly agree with you that religious and other groups need to stop sticking their noses where they do not belong and distirting what should be a scientific question. You mention your "index", papers, and so on. Are they published or on the Internet, or how does one refer to them? I susepct your compl;ete paper answers a lot of other questions that have rolled iy my mind since I took DSM IV classes. Jung theorized that if you are consciously a male, your unconscious mind is a female, and v.v. Whether he was right or not I cannot say, but I can see how at least in theory if unconscious contents are pressing into coonsciousness more easily than they do in "normal" people (a condition one sees in both schizophrenics and seers) one could have an alter ego which was of the opposite sex from one's persona. It would not be surprising to see something like this in someone who is perfectly sane but who nonetheless had easier than normal intercommunication between the conscious and unconscious minds, as someone like HPB would have had. (I am assuming she did have psychic experiences as she says she did, and that the boundary between these two autonomous psychic regions was therefore porous.) From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Sat Dec 28 11:28:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:28:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 53031 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:27:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:27:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout3.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.24) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:27:58 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([62.0.148.122]) by mxout3.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) with SMTP id <0H7U006CSGQF5X@mxout3.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:27:57 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:15:55 +0200 Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism TYPO CORRECTED AND CLARIFICATION To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <00a101c2aea7$058be1a0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <20021228084105.45300.qmail@web13409.mail.yahoo.com> From: Etzion Becker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 X-Yahoo-Profile: etzion7398 My Israeli Theosophical friends read a booklet which I published a few years ago containing six *conversations* my Master gave to His disciples concerning the formation of the ego and its termination, and the way to eliminate sanskaras (the name he used for the enslaving impressions which adhere to our subconscious minds and compel us to take births non stop, and also compels the person to act without self control. They published these conversations in their bimonthly magazine. They are good, trust me. I have the file also in English. If so you wish, I can send one at a time. Etzion ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mic Forster" To: Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 10:41 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Alleged certificate re hermaphroditism TYPO CORRECTED AND CLARIFICATION > Thanks Etzion, just making sure we are all still on > the ball. But I'm a scientist at heart and before I > can be convinced of something I really need tangible > proof (well something close to tangible anyway). At > the beginning of this year at university I decided to > do some extra subjects and consequently I undertook > philosophy. Well I enjoyed the lectures but after one > tutorial I chucked it in with sheer frustration. Those > guys couldn't make up their minds on anything!!! > From jpcondick@btinternet.com Sat Dec 28 11:28:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 53918 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tungsten.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.81) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Received: from host213-1-72-207.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.72.207] helo=oemcomputer) by tungsten.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #16) id 18SMd6-00027e-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:28:17 +0000 Message-ID: <00ed01c2aea7$5e88f2c0$555701d5@oemcomputer> To: References: <1040904054.284.51331.m12@yahoogroups.com> <000801c2adee$2ad02160$1fe0ba3f@zackl> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: HPB and the Nazi doctrines Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:27:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zack Lansdowne" To: Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 9:22 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: HPB and the Nazi doctrines > Bart wrote: > > Well, Blavatsky was long dead when the Nazi's started. Many attribute > > the statements of Alice Bailey, who, in spite of her spiritual > > connections, was something of a bigot (she felt Blacks were inferior, > > Jews deserved any bad thing that happened to them because of their > > rejection of Jesus, and that all homosexuals were inherently evil), and > > made a number of statements supportive of the Nazi's. > > > > I have the complete set of Alice Bailey's 24 books on CD-ROM, and so I > decided to check the accuracy of Bart's claim that Alice Bailey "made a > number of statements supportive of the Nazi's." By doing a search on the > word "Nazi", I learned that Bailey, in her books, used this word exactly > nine times. The paragraphs in which she used this word are as follows: > > 1) The dangers growing out of hate, revenge and pain. These dangers will be > the most difficult to avoid. A deep-seated hatred of the Nazi regime (and of > the German nation as endorsing that regime) is steadily rising. This is > almost inevitable, being based on the facts of Nazi activity. The task of > the United Nations after the war will of necessity be-among other things-to > protect the German people from the hate of those whom they have so > appallingly abused. This will be no easy thing to do. Retribution and > revenge must not be permitted, and yet at the same time a just payment for > evil action cannot, and should not, be avoided. The law ever works, and that > law states that whatsoever a man or nation sows, that shall it also reap. > Germany has sown evil broadcast throughout the civilised world, and for some > time to come her lot must be hard and she will have to pay in sweat and toil > and tears for her evil deeds. But this payment should be part of the great > work of rehabilitation and not a vengeful exaction, and if this is borne in > mind, no serious mistakes will be made. The German people must work > strenuously to put right the evil they have done, as far as in them lies, > but the next generation-at present in the cradle or at school-must not be > penalised. (Bailey, Externalization of the Hierarchy, pp. 370-371)... > The above paragraphs contain all of the instances in which Alice Bailey used > the word "Nazi" in her 24 books. Nowhere do I see any justification for > Bart's claim that Alice Bailey "made a number of statements supportive of > the Nazi's." > > > Zack Lansdowne. Dear Bart, I have done a search [nazism] looking for your suggestion that AAB was supportive of the Nazi Third Reich, yet have only come up with this which alongside the work of Zack does not add support to your proclamation. A passage from "Problems Of Humanity" AAB, is also included for your future reference. Kindest Regards Jeremy "The ancient and inherited ideas which have controlled the racial life for centuries -aggression for the sake of possession and the authority of a man or a group or a church which represents the State. For purposes of policy such powers may work behind the scenes but their tenets and motives are easily recognizable - selfish ambition and a violently imposed authority. Those ideas which are relatively new such as Nazism, Fascism, and Communism, though they are not really as new as people are apt to think. They are alike on one important point, i.e. The State or community of human beings counts as of importance whilst the individual does not; he can be sacrificed at any time for the good of the State or for the so-called general good. [9] Destiny Of The Nations. AAB. It is here that the power of speech makes itself felt, just as in the department of religion or of education the power of the written word, of the printed page, is felt. In the field of politics, the masses are swayed by their orators, and never more so than now through the use of the radio. Great ideas are dinned into the ear of the public without cessation - theories as to dictatorship, communism, nazism, fascism, marxism, nationalism and democratic ideals. Methods of rule by this or that group of thinkers are presented to the public, leaving them no time for consideration, or for clear thinking. Racial antipathies are spread, and personal preferences and illusions find expression, bringing about the deception of the unthinking. [115] The man who has a golden tongue, the man who has the gift of playing with words and can voice with emphasis people's grievances, the juggler in statistics, the fanatic with a certain and sure cure for social ills and the man who loves to fan race hatreds, can ever get a following. Such men can with facility upset the balance of the community and lead a body of unthinking adherents to a transient success and power, or to obloquy and oblivion. Education In New Age. AAB. Shamballa force (in spite of its attendant risks) to pour into the world. The objective was to stimulate the free will of the masses; the result upon them has been relatively good as it has led to the formulation and expression of the great world ideologies -Fascism, [127] Democracy and Communism as well as that peculiarly distorted blend of Fascism and Communism which goes by the name of Hitlerism or Nazism. All these ideologies are fostered by the desire of the masses for the betterment of the condition in which the populace in any country lives and it has become focused, expressive and creative by the force of the Shamballa influence. But another result of this inflow of the will-to-power has been to stimulate a certain group of outstanding personalities in many lands so that they have assumed control of the masses and can thus determine the policies and methods -religious, political and social - of the different nations. In every nation a relatively small group of people decide all important issues and determine all major national activities. This they do either by force, terror and deception or by persuasion, fair words and the application of ideological motives. Externalisation Of The Hierarchy. AAB. These nations want understanding cooperation; they want the implements for agriculture, immediate relief in food and clothing, plus the wherewithal to start again their educational institutions, to organize their schools and to equip them with what is immediately required. They certainly do not want a horde of [42] well-meaning people taking over their educational or medical institutions, or imposing democratic, communistic or any other particular ideology upon them. Naturally, the principles of Nazism and of Fascism must be swept away, but the nations must be free to work out their own destiny. They have each of them their own traditions, cultures and backgrounds. They are being forced to build anew but what they build must be their own; it must be distinctive of them and an expression of their own inner life. It is surely the function of the wealthier and free nations to help them to build so that the new world can come into being." Problems Of Humanity. AAB. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Sat Dec 28 11:28:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 19:28:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 54928 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 19:28:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 19:28:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.170] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 19:28:19 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 19:28:17 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Panikkar and SECRET DOCTRINE Nasadiya Sukta verses compared Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 281 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs " X-Originating-IP: 64.152.232.21 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel H. Caldwell " wrote: > So what exactly is your point? What should we conclude from this > comparison? It is fairly obvious the Stanzas of Dzyan are the Rg Veda. BAG is not the first person to point that out. From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Sat Dec 28 12:08:37 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 20:08:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 10677 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 20:08:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 20:08:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout1.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.20) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 20:08:36 -0000 Received: from Etzion1 ([62.0.148.122]) by mxout1.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.08 (built Dec 6 2002)) with SMTP id <0H7U0091ZIM7AZ@mxout1.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 Dec 2002 22:08:34 +0200 (IST) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 22:07:07 +0200 Subject: Re: Theos-World HPB and the Nazi doctrines To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <00db01c2aeac$b35e12d0$0100a8c0@Etzion1> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: From: Etzion Becker X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=78835804 X-Yahoo-Profile: etzion7398 I cannot read Freud. There is too much on my little head already. I read genesis many, many times. Sorry, I don't remember any volcano. Some think that Mt Sinai behaved like a volcano at that time, and it doesn't look like. I saw a movie a year or two ago in our educational t.v., before Passover, and they discovered the Santorini erupted with tremendous force during the time of Exodus, and the force was so huge, that stones flunged from the volcano and fell on Egypt. They found volcnic rocks which belonged to Santorini in Egypt. This explains many of the cataclysms like the darkness, hail, the *torn* Red Sea, etc. The Hebrews never worshipped any volcano, there are no volcanos in Palestine, only in the Golan Heights, and they are dead for many thousands of years. The Children of Israel lived in Palestine for about 1300 years, I guess since they entered Canaan after Exodus. I guess Dershowitz is some kind of American humor which I am not sure what is it. He is a lawyer, I guess. > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Etzion Becker > wrote: > > I have never heard about two Moses. I don't see any mention about > volcanos > > in the Bible. > > Read Freud, MOSES AND MONOTHEISM. The Exodus story is filled with > references to a volcano, which suggests another hero who lived far to > the north of Egypt and whose legend was mistakenly merged with that > of the Egyptian Moses by the exodus writer. Apparently this "other" > Moses relates to a time when the Hebrews worshipped a volcano, > probably with an interest to placating it so it would not destroy > their community. The fact that the fellow who compiled and preserved > the legends for us mistook these two men for the same person suggests > to scholars that they might have had the same name or similar names. > > Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by a volcanic eruption. > > > Arabs, or the sons of Ishmael were roaming beduins, nomads > > They were nomads just as the ancient Hebrews were nomads. > > > In Jewish tradition, [much before Arabic invasion > > into Palestine], mentioned that the Jews will rule Palestine for > 1300 years, > > then the Arabs will rule it for 1300 years. > > Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the reference. Does the > tradition suggest that the first 1300 years begins with the end of > the Rxile? Am I interpreting it correctly? > > > Lord Abraham was about to sacrifice his > > son Issac to God. > > I think you are confused. I heard Alan Dershowitz talk about this > legend one time and I believe he said it was Isaac who wanted to > sacrifice his son. Dershowitz said he would have had Isaac indicted. From bhakti.eohn@verizon.net Sat Dec 28 12:09:33 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhakti.eohn@verizon.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_3_0); 28 Dec 2002 20:09:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 15575 invoked from network); 28 Dec 2002 20:09:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Dec 2002 20:09:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Dec 2002 20:09:32 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.249] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Dec 2002 20:09:32 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:09:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: B.A.G. on Blavatsky, the Mahatmas and Serapis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 29092 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Bhakti Ananda Goswami " X-Originating-IP: 67.227.171.39 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66352761 X-Yahoo-Profile: bhakti_eohn BA G's answers at /// You (Mr. Caldwell) wrote... " I'm wondering exactly how you came to these conclusions." /// I considered the evidence from Theosophical Society sources, my extensive study and experience of intersexed persons. I am not the one who raised the issue here of HPB's (or my own) embodiment or gender identity. I was actually asked my opinion, so I gave it. Is this > just mere speculation on your part or do you have some evidence that > would verify your "psychoanalytic" assessment? ///My assessment has nothing to do with any psychoanalytic theory ie Freudian, Jungian etc. I have previously stated that my observations have NOTHING to do with Multiple Personality Disorder and I do not consider HPB to have had 'GID'. The statements of others regarding her inability to bear children or 'hermaphroditism' make it clear that she had some anatomical condition, which RULES OUT a diagnosis of GID. MOST anatomical conditions preventing pregnancy ARE intersex conditions, (see my detailed topical index), so if she was unable to concieve or bear a child, it is PROBABLE that she had an intersexed condition. Even if she could, that does not rule-out intersex (see my index) and the quesion remains, where has the rumor of her hermaphroditism come from ? Such rumors are unheard of in the Victorian era. ///The evidence is in HPB's writings and those about her, and in your own article pasted-in below. > Furthermore, it is hard to understand exactly what you are getting > out. For example, you write: > > "Thus, HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' MASCULINE > GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS." > > What exactly does that mean? /// That part of HPB's personality that Theosophical Sources and YOU have (see below) identified with Serapis, found expression as a Mahatma. > Can you relate this vague statement of yours, for example, to the > following two accounts? /// Whether the Mahatmas are considered all, part or none of a literary devise, it is clear from the evidience that you yourself have provided that HPB identified with them and especially her Master Serapis. If we are discussing her relationship to the very real Kashmiri Rajas, or some other hero of her's, heros can be viewed as desirable opposite-sex others, or as same sex ROLE MODELS and IDEALS. HPB's attitude to her MAhatmas was clearly a chaste one (not a tantric sexual-opposites one) and she clearly identified WITH THEM, especially Serapis, as you yourself have written below. > B.A.G., how does this encounter with a Master relate to your > statement that "HPB coped with her frustration by expressing 'her' > MASCULINE GENDER IDENTITY through her MAHATMAS." /// People commonly express themselves through their heros and heroines, whether they are imaginary friends, someone else's fictional creation, or very real world beings. Any way that one may approach HPB and her relationship to the Mahatmas, she did clearly on some level identify with them (after all she penned their letters !) so what is the problem with my stating this, and pointing out that the Masters were MALE and not Female entities? Did she 'channel' any female personalities ? Or was her identification with heroic male figures ? /// Here is the evidence. Published by Blavatsky Archives. Online Edition copyright 2002. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- "Bear Witness!" Who Was the Real H.P.B.? Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell A Mighty Adept Using the Old Body Called H.P. Blavatsky Some 109 year ago, Julia Keightley had the following experience: "A few days after Madame Blavatsky died, H.P.B. awoke me at night. I raised myself, feeling no surprise, but only the sweet accustomed pleasure. She held my eyes with her leonine gaze. Then she grew thinner, taller, her shape became masculine; slowly then her features changed, until a man of height and rugged powers, stood before me, the last vestige of her features melting into his, until the leonine gaze, the progressed radiance of her glance alone remained. The man lifted his head and said: 'Bear witness!' He then walked from the room, laying his hand on the portrait of H.P.B. as he passed." Reminiscences of H.P. Blavatsky and The Secret Doctrine, 1893, p. 127. Some two years earlier, James Pryse also had a remarkable encounter with HPB: "One evening [in 1889] while I was thus meditating the face of H. P. B. flashed before me. I recognized it from her portrait in Isis, though it appeared much older. Thinking that the astral picture, as I took it to be, was due to some vagary of fancy, I tried to exclude it; but at that the face showed a look of impatience, and instantly I was drawn out of my body and immediately was standing "in the astral" beside H. P. B. in London. It was along toward morning there, but she was still seated at her writing desk. While she was speaking to me, very kindly, I could not help thinking how odd it was that an apparently fleshy old lady should be an Adept. I tried to put that impolite thought out of my mind, but she read it, and as if in answer to it her physical body became translucent, revealing a marvellous inner body that looked as if it were formed of molten gold. Then suddenly the Master M. appeared before us in his mayavi-rupa. To him I made profound obeisance, for he seemed to me more like a God than a man. Somehow I knew who he was, though this was the first time I had seen him. He spoke to me graciously and said, 'I shall have work for you in six months.' He walked to the further side of the room, waved his hand in farewell and departed. Then H. P. B. dismissed me with the parting words, 'God bless you,' and directly I saw the waves of the Atlantic beneath me; I floated down and dipped my feet in their crests. Then with a rush I crossed the continent till I saw the lights of Los Angles and returned to my body, seated in the chair where I had left it. . . ." "Memorabilia of H.P.B." The Canadian Theosophist, March 15, 1935, pp. 1-5. http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/pryse.htm James Pryse wrote to William Q. Judge about his out-of-body experience and "vision" of H.P.B. Judge referred to these experiences in his reply to Pryse dated September 3, 1889: "My dear Pryse: "I have your letter, and fully appreciate your feelings as they resemble my own. "I do not think your position is so strange or remarkable as to be beyond our ken, nor do I look at your experiences as being solely mediumistic, nor at the dream or vision as unsolvable. You are now struggling with the personal self in the early stages, and can consider yourself fortunate that you have the chance to overcome in the initial battle. . . ". . . . Your vision that when you looked at H P B and saw no old woman but a God is correct. You were privileged to see the Truth --- For the Being in that old body called H P Blavatsky is a mighty Adept working on his own plan in the world. And thus we do not need to go to Tibet or S. America to find the sort of Being so many wish to see. Yet having seen the reality better keep silent and work with that in view. For even did you go and tell Him you knew He was there he would smile while he waited for you to do something such as you could in your limited sphere. For flattery counts not and professions are worse than useless. But it is a great thing to see as much as you have, and a greater thing it will be if you do not doubt for you may never see it again. . . . " William Quan Judge, Practical Occultism, p. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/prac-oc/po10.htm Two Persons in Madame Blavatsky In a letter dated February 23, 1887, HPB wrote to William Judge: "Yes there are 'two persons' in me. But what of that? So are there two in you; only mine is conscious & responsible & yours is not." The Theosophical Forum, July 1932, p. 226 " 'Two persons' in me"? What does that phrase mean? In the Glossary appended to the 2nd edition (1890) of The Key to Theosophy, HPB writes about the "two Egos in man": "Esoteric philosophy teaches the existence of two Egos in man, the mortal or personal, and the higher, the divine or impersonal, calling the former 'personality,' and the latter 'individuality.' " (See entry on "Ego.") In another glossary definition, HPB writes that "Individuality," is one "of the names given in Theosophy and Occultism to the human Higher Ego. We make a distinction between the immortal and divine and the mortal human Ego. . . ." Elsewhere in the glossary, we find this: "The Individuality is the Higher Ego (Manas) of the Triad considered as a Unity. In other words the Individuality is our imperishable Ego which reincarnates and clothes itself in a new Personality at every new birth." Let us now give a number of statements by HPB in which she apparently refers to the conscious Individuality within her: "Do you believe that, because you have fathomed --- as you think---my physical crust and brain; that shrewd analyst of human nature though you be---you have ever penetrated even beneath the first cuticles of my Real Self ? You would gravely err, if you did...You DO NOT KNOW me; for whatever there is INSIDE it, is NOT WHAT YOU THINK it is; and- --to judge of me therefore, as of one UNTRUTHFUL is the greatest mistake in the world besides being a flagrant injustice. I (the inner real "I") am in prison and cannot show myself as I am with all the desire I may have to. Why, then, should I, because speaking for myself AS I AM and feel myself to be, why should I be held responsible for the OUTWARD jail-door and ITS appearance, when I have neither built nor yet decorated it ?" Letter of H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett, The Mahatma Letters, 2nd ed., pp. 465-466. ". . . I am enough of an occultist to know that before we find the Master within our own hearts and seventh principle --- we need an outside Master....I got my drop from my Master (the living one)....He is a Saviour, he who leads you to finding the Master within yourself. . . . " Letters of H.P. Blavatsky to Franz Hartmann, The Path , Volume X, p. 367. ". . . I venerate the Masters, and worship MY MASTER --- the sole creator of my inner Self which but for His calling it out, awakening it from its slumber, would never have come to conscious being --- not in this life, at all events..." Letters of H.P. Blavatsky to A.P. Sinnett, p. 104 "Several times a day I feel that besides me there is someone else, quite separable from me, present in my body. I never lose the consciousness of my own personality; what I feel is as if I were keeping silent and the other one -- the lodger who is in me -- were speaking with my tongue. For instance, I know that I have never been in the places which are described by my 'other me', but this other one -- the second me -- does not lie when he tells about places and things unknown to me, because he has actually seen them and knows them well. I have given it up: let my fate conduct me at its own sweet will; and besides, what am I to do? It would be perfectly ridiculous if I were to deny the possession of knowledge avowed by my No. 2, giving occasion to the people around me to imagine that I keep them in the dark for modesty's sake. In the night, when I am alone in my bed, the whole life of my No. 2 passes before my eyes, and I do not see myself at all, but quite a different person -- different in race and different in feelings." The Path, December 1894, http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/blavlet1.htm "Do not be afraid that I am off my head. All that I can say is that someone positively inspires me. . . . more than this: someone enters me. It is not I who talk and write: it is something within me, my higher and luminous Self, that thinks and writes for me. Do not ask me, my friend, what I experience, because I could not explain it to you clearly. I do not know myself! The one thing I know is that now, when I am about to reach old age, I have become a sort of storehouse of somebody else's knowledge... " It is Something Within Me, My Higher and Luminous Self, that Thinks and Writes for Me. Some students believe that HPB herself reveals that the mighty Adept using the "H.P. Blavatsky" body was a Nirmanakaya. In a letter dated September