From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 04:35:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 12:35:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 30957 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 12:35:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 12:35:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.73) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 12:35:13 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 12:35:13 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:35:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 851 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Steve: It was in 1885 that Damodar froze to death trying to get into Tibet. Brian: There is no evidence it was his body. --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > it is pretty certain that Blavatsky herself didn't > > write them, but that doesn't mean that she didn't give someone the > basic > > content to rewrite in their own words). > > The author of the "Shannon" letter states that Blavatsky was one of > the "amanuensis chelas" and says that from 1885 onward she was the > only one, which suggests Damodar was the other. It was in 1885 that > Damodar froze to death trying to get into Tibet. A behavior which is > radically inconsistent with the statements of Hodgson and others that > he was a con artist who did not believe in the mahatmas. From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 04:49:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 12:49:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 45323 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 12:49:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 12:49:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 12:49:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 12:49:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:49:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3083 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Steve: it must be a matter of interest whether the mahatma letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. Brian: It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence letters are what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends on if you want to believe it or not. Steve: Kargyu lineage Brian: Can you show us any authentic document of the Kargyu lineage that states as its teacheings that "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity." (Mahatma K.H.) ? Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Why burden ? If someone claims Elvis is alive and he lives on > > Mars with his a wife and 14 children, why "we" have the burden to > > establish whether this claim is true or not ? > > You only have to do so if it is a matter of interest. Since you post > so frequently, it must be a matter of interest whether the mahatma > letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. > > I > > don't see a major mystery in the fact that that some of the > letters, such > > as the Shannon letter, could not have been delivered other then by > > either HPB or Damodar. > > In her bio, even Marion Meade said the Shannon letter was a mystery. > > > Even Paul Johnson > > I respect him, but his beliefs do not constitute evidence of anything. > > > In fact Steve, no Indian/Thibetan/or Oriental person in their > right mind > > would write what these so called "Mahatmas" wrote like" "The > highest > > race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- > yourselves > > the white conquerors. > > "White" in India referred to the Bramin caste, which was believed to > be the ancestor of the British, a la the Aryan invasion and migration > theory. > > > So with "White" Brotherhood was clearly intended just that, > whoever > > wrote this clearly identified himself/herself with white "Aryan" > not even > > Indian. > > Not true. The "white" lineage of Tibet (Kargyu lineage) has nothing > to do with white skin an more than the Nyingma has to do with red > skin or the Gelugs has anything to do with yellow skin. > > Besides, Blavatsky never used the phrase "white brotherhood." That > was Mabel Collins who did tht. The term was popularized by > Leadbearter, who claimed to be hobnobbing with mahatmas on a moment > by moment basis, as well as doing all sorts of other improbable > things. From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Nov 01 05:30:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 13:30:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 11463 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 13:30:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 13:30:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 13:30:29 -0000 Received: from pool0211.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.211] helo=earthlink) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 187bsa-0007EA-00; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 05:30:28 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World The Mahatma Letters. Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 05:26:54 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Dear Friend: Are you able to give positive references for what you write. There is apparently much dependence on memory -- but the facts are not clear. Dallas --------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Steve Stubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:01 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Mahatma Letters. --- In theos-talk@y..., Bart Lidofsky wrote: > it is pretty certain that Blavatsky herself didn't > write them, but that doesn't mean that she didn't give someone the basic > content to rewrite in their own words). The author of the "Shannon" letter states that Blavatsky was one of the "amanuensis chelas" and says that from 1885 onward she was the only one, which suggests Damodar was the other. It was in 1885 that Damodar froze to death trying to get into Tibet. A behavior which is radically inconsistent with the statements of Hodgson and others that he was a con artist who did not believe in the mahatmas. WHERE DOES HE SO STATE ? I have not seen this so stated. D ---------------------------- WHO SAID THAT DAMODAR FROZE TO DEATH ? THERE WAS AN UNVERIFIED REPORT TO THIS EFFECT I believe Olcott mentions this-- am I right ? D. Dallas From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 01 07:11:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:11:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 38167 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:11:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:11:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:11:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.186] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 15:11:25 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:11:25 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian/Brigitte on "valid" evidence about The Mahatma Letters Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2670 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte writes: "It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence [that the mahatma] letters are what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends on if you want to believe it or not." Brian/Brigitte's above comment got me thinking. A critic may say that he is opened minded toward the issue of the Mahatma Letters and whether "what they say they are" is true or not. Such a critic may further state that he is cautious in his approach and therefore needs "valid" evidence, "trustworthy" evidence to convince him of the Mahatma Letters' "claim". I think such a position is quite understandable and rational. I do not know if Brian/Brigitte is that open-minded or not. I suspect not. But if such a critic wants "valid" evidence before accepting the ML claim, then it seems that the critic should be able to define (at least in his own mind!) what kind of evidence he would accept as VALID. In other words, such a critic should be able to specify in advance the type of evidence (if found) that he would consider "valid" and "convincing"? If Brian/Brigitte will specify what kind of VALID evidence he/she has in mind, some of us on this forum may be able to find just this kind of evidence. Another point. Brian/Brigitte writes: "At the moment there [is] NO EVIDENCE . . . . " caps added. It is not evident exactly what is meant by this. But this vague statement certainly reminds me of the position of the "scoffer" of the paranormal. Here is Dr. Marcello Truzzi's relevant remarks: "The perspective of the scoffer, as with most dogmatists, tends to distinguish only black from white and fails to acknowledge gray areas. . . . Scoffers use a similar foreshortening towards issues of evidence. It is common to hear statements to the effect that 'there is no evidence supporting a claim' when in fact it is merely inadequate evidence that has been presented. Evidence is always a matter of degree, some being extremely weak; but even weak evidence can mount up (as shown by meta-analysis) to produce a stronger case. Weak evidence (most commonly anecdotal rather than systematic and experimental evidence) is often discounted, however, by assertions [by the scoffer] that it falls below some threshold of what science should consider evidence at all. This, of course, eliminates the evidential basis for most of clinical medicine and the social sciences, but that seems to hold no terror for the scoffer who invokes such criteria." Quoted from: http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/anomalistics/practices.htm Daniel From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 07:14:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:14:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 50273 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:14:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:14:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:14:58 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 15:14:55 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:14:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 347 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.231.147 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Steve: It was in 1885 that Damodar froze to death trying to get into > Tibet. > > Brian: There is no evidence it was his body. That was Olcott's argument, that he made it to the master's ashram. However that might be, the fact remains that he left the scene in 1885. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 07:19:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:19:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 57229 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:19:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:19:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.68) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:19:37 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 15:19:37 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:19:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 732 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.231.147 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > Brian: It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence letters are > what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not > depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends on if > you want to believe it or not. Your point was why you should prove it, not whether or not there is anyy evidence. > > Brian: Can you show us any authentic document of the Kargyu lineage > that states as its teacheings that "The highest race The questionhere is whether "white" applied to a society in India or Tibet has anything to do with white skin. As for an authentic document from that source, you may have just quoted one. From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 07:22:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:22:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 94941 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:22:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:22:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:22:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.142] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 15:22:49 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:22:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 348 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Steve Stubbs" X-Originating-IP: 67.203.231.147 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > Dear Friend: > > Are you able to give positive references for what you write. There is > apparently much dependence on memory -- but the facts are not clear. The Shannon letter has been reprinted over and over again. Probably Daniel Caldwell has a copy of it somewhere. Please apply to him. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 01 07:29:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:29:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 79708 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:29:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:29:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:29:42 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a4912a.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.145.42]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6366D482875 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:29:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002901c281ba$d3ae2260$2a91a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Mahatma Letters. Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:24:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Brian and all of you, Please Brian could you be more specific when you refer to the in the below mentioned Mahatma Letter of racism ?? What number is it ? What year is it from ? etc.... Please... from M. Sufilight with his book torn apart....>:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "brianmuehlbach" To: Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:49 PM Subject: Theos-World Re: The Mahatma Letters. > Steve: it must be a matter of interest whether the mahatma > letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. > > Brian: It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence letters are > what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not > depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends on if > you want to believe it or not. > > Steve: Kargyu lineage > > Brian: Can you show us any authentic document of the Kargyu lineage > that states as its teacheings that "The highest race (physical > intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves > the white conquerors. The majority of mankind > belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the above > mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, > Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other > sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All > these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity." (Mahatma K.H.) ? > > Brian > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" > wrote: > > > Why burden ? If someone claims Elvis is alive and he lives on > > > Mars with his a wife and 14 children, why "we" have the burden to > > > establish whether this claim is true or not ? > > > > You only have to do so if it is a matter of interest. Since you post > > so frequently, it must be a matter of interest whether the mahatma > > letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. > > > > I > > > don't see a major mystery in the fact that that some of the > > letters, such > > > as the Shannon letter, could not have been delivered other then by > > > either HPB or Damodar. > > > > In her bio, even Marion Meade said the Shannon letter was a mystery. > > > > > Even Paul Johnson > > > > I respect him, but his beliefs do not constitute evidence of anything. > > > > > In fact Steve, no Indian/Thibetan/or Oriental person in their > > right mind > > > would write what these so called "Mahatmas" wrote like" "The > > highest > > > race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- > > yourselves > > > the white conquerors. > > > > "White" in India referred to the Bramin caste, which was believed to > > be the ancestor of the British, a la the Aryan invasion and migration > > theory. > > > > > So with "White" Brotherhood was clearly intended just that, > > whoever > > > wrote this clearly identified himself/herself with white "Aryan" > > not even > > > Indian. > > > > Not true. The "white" lineage of Tibet (Kargyu lineage) has nothing > > to do with white skin an more than the Nyingma has to do with red > > skin or the Gelugs has anything to do with yellow skin. > > > > Besides, Blavatsky never used the phrase "white brotherhood." That > > was Mabel Collins who did tht. The term was popularized by > > Leadbearter, who claimed to be hobnobbing with mahatmas on a > moment > > by moment basis, as well as doing all sorts of other improbable > > things. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Fri Nov 01 07:46:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 15:46:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 44996 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 15:46:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 15:46:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 15:46:43 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.161] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 15:46:43 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:46:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002901c281ba$d3ae2260$2a91a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 35031 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Sweet Sufilight : Please Brian could you be more specific when you=20 refer to the in the below mentioned Mahatma Letter of racism ?? What number is it ? What year is it from ? etc.... If you just place one of the key words in: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/psearch.htm=20=20=20=20=20 You will automatically get the letter from K.H. to Sinnet that I referred t= =3D=0D o=20 in my previous posting plus some others also, because there are many=20 Mahatma Letters saying the same thing. Also I prefer feed back to this somewhat harsch but factual article (one=20 of a series of 8) on my website. I didn't write it all myself but I did mos= =3D=0D t=20 of the research being exhausted I must say, it was a maraton: Due to new documents that surfaced shortly before Timothy McVeigh's=20 execution he was about to break his silence regarding the "third man",=20 the leader of the cell (?) he belonged to and the Oklahoma City=20 bombing, which killed 169 people. Due to the new evidence that the FBI=20 suddenly brought to the surface Timothy McVeigh requested a new trial,=20 but this was not granted and so McVeigh took whatever he new of=20 the "third man" with him in the grave.=20 Documents and testimonies found by the Guardian and the Star Tribune=20 of Minneapolis show that neo-Nazi paramilitary groups and Aryan=20 supremacists declared their intention to launch a `war' against the=20 government in Oklahoma , under the nose of the FBI. And hinted at in=20 Behold a Pale Horse, a book full of neo-Theosophical teachings and=20 conspiracy theories published in 1991 by an ideologue of the militia=20 movement, William Cooper. His book is one of the manifesto of the=20 militia movement.=20 Irrelevant of Muhammad or McVeigh's involvement with the indicated=20 extremist Religious groups, what this series of articles will investigate = =3D=0D instead is the inter-action between Black and White Racialism.=20 As indicated in the first part of this 5 or 6 part investigation, racism = =3D=0D pervaded various spheres of organized thought, including American=20 nationalism and religion. Racism was at the heart of the country, part of=20 its very foundation. It was not disputed, other than among groups at the=20 margins of society.=20 White supremacy was truly a way of life, the "natural" order on which=20 civilization rested. Scientific racism was established in learned=20 academic circles, racism was part of the conventional Christian=20 denominations, it was a chief principle in the judicial system, it was the = =3D=0D upholder of decent morality and it organized the social space of society. = =3D=0D White religious racism only emerged as a systematic deviant theology to=20 form the basis of a separate nationalist quest following the gradual and=20 painful deconstruction of institutionalized white supremacy and the=20 subsequent inclusion of blacks as part of the American "nation." Its=20 formative period coincided with the first attacks on racism as state=20 sanctioned law and the norm of society. Initially, it held a largely=20 conservative outlook, which successively was pushed further out to the=20 margins. During the past few decades it has become increasingly more=20 radical and revolutionary, as a diminishing number of white radical=20 racialists believe that there is something left to conserve. Its present=20 resurgence and international pan-Aryan networking seems to be=20 connected to the process of globalization, and its adherents are today=20 interconnected in a global, though uneasy, network.=20 Christian Identity can be described as the recasting of the older British- = =3D=0D Israelite creed on white racial nationalist, anti Semitic, and, largely,=20 National Socialist grounds. British-Israelism took shape in England at the = =3D=0D latter part of the nineteenth century. Inspired in part by seventeenth=20 century Puritan teachings and the visions of British naval officer Richard = =3D=0D Brothers (1757-1854), who claimed to be a direct descendant of King=20 David, British-Israelism identifies the Northern European, and by=20 extension white American, nations with the lost tribes of Israel. It differ= =3D=0D s=20 from Puritan beliefs in claiming not only a spiritual, but a genealogical=20 identification with the Chosen People of God. This makes Europeans the=20 principal actors of the Bible and thus implies an ambiguous relationship=20 with the Jews, who would be either relatives or masquerading=20 impostors. British-Israelism proper generally resolved this tension by=20 identifying Jews with the House of Judah. This conclusion led British-=20 Israelites to enthusiastically support early Zionism as it would mean a=20 reunification of the two Kingdoms in the Holy Land, which was then a=20 British protectorate.=20 Alarmed by Zionist demands for an independent Jewish state which in=20 effect would ruin the British-Israelite project of world salvation, a laten= =3D=0D t=20 anti - Semitism transpired, voicing doubts as to the Jews' true identity.=20 This negative attitude would be greatly accentuated on American soil,=20 where British-Israelism metamorphosed into Christian Identity. Early=20 proponents of the new gospel in America were M. M. Eshelman,=20 minister in the Church of Brethren and author of The Two Sticks or the=20 Lost Tribes of Israel Discovered (1887), and J. H. Allen, whose Judah's=20 Scepter and Joseph's Birthright (1902) became a bestseller, spreading=20 British-Israelism in Adventist and Bible study groups, and it is still wide= =3D=0D ly=20 read in Identity circles.=20 Though separate congregations were established in the United States,=20 British-Israelism mainly gained ground as a theological tendency among=20 individual ministers and laymen of conventional denominations, who=20 were bound together in loose networks or associations. Its theology=20 was, of course, not all that new in a land incorporating an=20 (analogous) "New Jerusalem" identity as part of a national creed.=20 Mormonism had already taken this notion a step further, claiming a=20 genealogical connection between its adherents and biblical Israel.=20 Struggling with its relationship to the Jewish people, Mormonism, like=20 British-Israelism, in general adopted a philo-Semitic position, although=20 schismatic groups have developed a virulent anti-Semitism on par with=20 Christian Identity.=20 The formative period of Christian Identity could roughly be said to be the = =3D=0D three decades between 1940 and 1970. Through missionaries like=20 Wesley Swift, Bertrand Comparet and William Potter Gale, it took on a=20 white racialist, anti-Semitic, anti-Communist and a far-right conservative = =3D=0D political outlook. Combined with the teachings of early disciples Richard=20 G. Butler, Colonel Jack Mohr and James K. Warner, a distinct racist=20 theology was gradually formed. Whites were said to be the Adamic=20 people, created in His likeness. A notion of a pre-earthly existence is=20 found in an important substratum, teaching that whites either had a=20 spiritual or extraterrestrial pre-existence. Blacks were either preAdamic=20 soulless creatures or represented fallen, evil spirits, but they were not=20 the chief target of fear and hatred. This position was reserved for Jews. = =3D=0D The latent anti-Semitism found in British-Israelism rose to prominence.=20 Jews were, at best, reduced to mongrelized impostors, not infrequently=20 identified with Eurasian Khazars without any legitimate claim to a=20 closeness with God, and at worst denounced as the offspring of Satan.=20 While many Identity Christians interpret this relationship between Jews=20 and Satan as a spiritual bond, many Identity theologians advocate a=20 more literal blood-line linkage. Most renowned is the two-seed theory,=20 according to which Eve not only gave birth to Adam's son Abel, but also=20 to Satan's son, Cain, after having been seduced in a more down-to- earth manner. (2) The subsequent murder of Abel was thus not a=20 fratricide, but the first attempt to exterminate God's children. Whites and= =3D=0D =20 Jews are thus representations of the divine and the diabolical on earth,=20 locked in an eternal combat now approaching its predestined end. This=20 opposition could be accentuated into philosophical dualism, like in the=20 teachings of Robert Miles, who taught that God and Satan represented=20 two primal forces that used earth as a battleground to which they had=20 sent down armies of look-alike races, angelic soldiers of light versus=20 darkness, in their quest for cosmic dominion. An accentuated=20 apocalyptic consciousness pervaded Christian Identity, whose adherents=20 awaited a future more uncertain than most prophecy-believing=20 millenarian mainstream Christians.=20 In general, Christian Identity gave no room for the "rapture," the=20 miraculous physical escape from the impeding world destruction=20 common in fundamentalist Christianity. On the contrary, Identity=20 believers understood their task in terms of the Old Testament, in which=20 God used his people as combat soldiers. There was to be a global war,=20 and true believers had better to be prepared for the coming onslaught in=20 which evil would be exterminated by the army of God, led by "General=20 Jesus." (3) Thus, a militarized white racial religion took hold in the=20 United States.=20 Identifying the Teutonic-Anglo-Saxon-Celtic-Scandinavic peoples with=20 the lost tribes of Israel strengthened the sacred dimension of the=20 American project. This was the Holy Land, taken by "divine conquest,"=20 as God, as in the Old Testament, mandated His People to "go in and kill=20 every human being and possess the land. (4) White Americans were of=20 Marmaseh, prophesied to become a "great nation," (5) which in effect=20 made the American "nation" racially exclusive by divine command.=20=20 Identity logically held the Articles of Confederation and the original=20 Constitution to be biblical documents. The extent to which Mosaic law=20 would be followed in all its pedantic details varied among Identity=20 congregations, from the strictest observance-including circumcision of=20 male children-to a more conventional Christian understanding, claiming=20 that Aryan Jesus had made the ritual ordinances unnecessary. Many=20 chose Hebrew names for their children and celebrate Sabbath,=20 Passover, and other Jewish holidays.=20 British-Israelism was soon followed by the Theosophical Society with a=20 clear Aryan supremacy theory, that also claimed the US would be the=20 seat of the future, ( 6e Aryan "sub-") race, the Teutonic being the=20 momentarily leading, (5e Aryan "sub-") race.=20 Like the other two groups Theosophy will have high on its banner that=20 Humanity is "one" Brotherhood, as long everybody knows who the "elder=20 brothers" are and where the various "sub =96races" stand. One of the two=20 major spokespersons for the "White Brotherhood" made this clear in=20 the "Mahatma Letters" to Newspaper editor A.P. Sinnet Koot Hoomi in=20 British India: "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub= =3D=0D - race of the fifth=97yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of=20 mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race,=20=20 Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians,=20 Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of=20 the fourth and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, = =3D=0D degraded semblances of humanity." (6)=20 According to this teaching the President of the Theosophial Society A.=20 Besant wrote: "Colonial expansion and territorial conquest as a=20 migration of races for the ultimate enrichment of the Fifth Race. This=20 sweep of time, measured in aeons and evolving land-masses, dissolves=20 the political immediacy of imperialism. The race of Teutons, the fifth sub-= =3D=0D race of the Fifth Race, is now spreading over the world, has occupied=20 greater part of North America, driving before it the old Atlantean stock;=20 it has seized Australia and New Zealand, remnants of still more ancient=20 Lemuria, and the poor relic that dying Race are vanishing before it. High=20 is it rearing its proud head over the countries of the globe, destined to=20 build a world-wide Empire, and to sway the destinies of the civilization." = =3D=0D (7)=20 To recapitulate the evolutionary scheme briefly as presented in=20 theosophy: the first two races are distinguished from the succeeding=20 three in that they are self-born and sexless, their evolution being=20 coterminous with the formation of land masses and oceans. Sexuality,=20 differentiation, and identity commence with the third root-race. The=20 disclaimer that the term root-race has no connection with the ideas=20 associated with ethnic groups or racial strains" is immediately nullified=20 by the very language of classification and hierarchy. (8)=20 Even without further detail, the admission that each race is associated=20 with a particular homeland makes a mockery of the disclaimer.=20 Despite individual differences between theosophists, there is remarkably=20 little divergence in the evolutionary scheme they present. In fact, the=20 impression of a lack of originality evoked by their common discourse=20 works eerily on the reader, who is made to feel that this new mythology=20 is virtually interchangeable with science, so strongly is its content fixed= =3D=0D =20 and closed to interpretation.=20 During the 1925 Jubilee Convention, the Theosophical Society declared=20 as one of its aims the establishment of a World Government (Ransom, A=20 short History of the TS ,1950, p. 23.) and a "World Teacher" was=20 appointed with leading members of the TS publicly announced to be the=20 reincarnation of the twelve apostles. (9)=20 But although Theosophy made claims like all cycles "end with=20 destruction," as did also later Aum Sinrikyio (Tokyo Sarin gas attacks),=20 this is not an (esoteric) Buddhist belief, but rather is inspired by the=20 Apocalypse in the Bible. Many scholars have analyzed the teachings of=20 the TS and came to the conclusion that they are a mythologization of=20 ideas characteristic of late nineteenth century Europe and the "Mahatma=20 Letters" should be seen as a fraud.=20 The different theories explaining the various races on earth in=20 Theosophy have proven able to be combined in multiple variations,=20 without altering the basic theme of a cosmic combat between forces of=20 good and evil represented on earth in human form.=20 Later Identity ministers, notably Pete Peters, Mark Thomas, Bob=20 Hallstrorn and Michael A. Hoffman II, would continue the path of=20 radicalization. The formative years coincided with the rise of the black=20 civil rights movement and the subsequent transformation of American=20 race relations. Segregation was a painful process for many white=20 racialists, who found themselves in opposition to a federal government=20 that at times did not hesitate to force its will against whites in a racial= =3D=0D =20 conflict. Black Power grew as a dynamic force, and a series of violent=20 race-motivated upheavals struck fear in many American hearts.=20 Affirmative action was viewed as reversed racism, and for the first time=20 many white Americans found a racially motivated system to their=20 disadvantage. (10)=20 Immigration laws that had restricted the bulk of new Americans to racial=20 kin were altered to pave the way for a huge influx of Latin American and=20 Asian migrants. Were white Americans to become a minority in their=20 own country? The defeat in Vietnam added to the confusion. For the first=20 time in American history, a war did not end in a victory. Unable to=20 explain how the largest military power in the world could be so=20 embarrassingly beaten to -the ground by a small nation, the betrayed-by- their-leaders theory took hold as a viable explanation and was recycled=20 in an endless stream of movie productions. (11)=20 All these traumatic social tribulations contributed to the mental universe = =3D=0D of the second generation Identity adherents. During the 1970s and=20 1980s, the far right went through a process of increasing radicalization.=20 Where the earlier generation had been mainly conservative and=20 reactionary, revolutionary sentiments now proliferated as the federal=20 government gradually emerged as the enemy of the white race. During=20 this time, Christian Identity became widely diffused in National Socialist = =3D=0D and right wing extremist circles as a religious rationale for racialist=20 thought. Most of the more prominent leaders were either Christian=20 Identity ministers or passed through Christian Identity. Identity become a = =3D=0D unifying element in the otherwise fragmented and in-fighting American=20 radical right. Through ministries managing to stay slightly above the=20 complex intrigues, yearly gatherings during the 1980s were held at=20 Miles' Mountain Church in Flint, Michigan, and Pastor Butler organized=20 Aryan world congresses at his Church of Jesus Christ, Christian at=20 Hayden Lake, Idaho. The latter headquarters, Aryan Nations, also=20 became a symbol for a separatist tendency that called for whites to=20 establish a secessionist state, mostly, though not exclusively, placed in=20 the northwestern United States.=20 Christian Identity also pervaded other significant movements of these=20 decades, notably the radical localist Posse Comitatus, which refused to=20 accept any federal authority as constitutionally legitimate. The military=20 impetus gave rise to armed compounds of Christian congregations at=20 which were held survivalist training for Armageddon.=20 Militarism was also a distinct feature of the second category of white=20 religious nationalism that rose in the 1970s and 1980s. Not all white=20 racialists were content with the Jewish identity claimed for Aryans.=20=20 Christianity was held to be both alien and superstitious, negating=20 the "law of nature" as well as logical reasoning. Ukrainian-born Ben=20 Klassen founded the Church of the Creator (COTC) in 1973 in an effort=20 to develop a creed based on the concept "race as religion." Creativity=20 sharply ridiculed Identity doctrine, questioning why any sane white man=20 would "break [his] neck to distort history" only to pose as "a descendant=20 to such trash" as the ancient Hebrews.=20 Klassen states that there is no historical evidence that the Ten Tribes of = =3D=0D Israel ever existed and got lost, and if they did-good riddance! (12)=20 With at times brilliant sarcasm and irony, Klassen confronts all "spook=20 believing" creeds with the iconoclastic fervor of a nineteenth-century=20 atheist.=20 Christianity was described as a destructive force, created in an effort to = =3D=0D reduce the warrior spirit in the nature of the white man. In Nature's=20 Eternal Religion (1973), The While Man's Bible (1981) and RaHoWa:=20 This Planet Is All Ours (1987), a kind of religious dimension was added=20 to a -namely secular socio-Darwinism. Based on "nature's law," a vision=20 is outlined of the white man as a realized Nietzschean superman.=20 These anti-Christian teachings resulted in a falling out between COTC=20 and Identity leaders and distanced Klassen from much of the Klan.=20 Strongly opposed to the federal government, described as composed of=20 race traitors in the pocket of conspiring Jews, the COTC organized the=20 White Brigades at its to North Carolina, headquarters. Followers were=20 invited for a couple of weeks at a time, learning "survival skills, martial= =3D=0D =20 arts and how to use [military] weapons." (13)=20 Crativity split following its leader's suicide, but an attempt at reviving = =3D=0D the=20 COTC led by Pontifex Maximus Matt Hale came in 1996 from its 7ew=20 headquarters in Illinois. (14)=20 The 1990s is characterized by a further radicalization of white racialism. = =3D=0D The removal of the Soviet bloc as a distracting enemy allowed a clearer=20 focus on the United States' government as the force of evil. President=20 George Bush's talk of a New World Order was interpreted as confirming=20 the white racialists fears of a conspiracy to establish a one-world=20 government.=20 Irrespective of whether this was interpreted in Identity terms as the=20 prophesied global reign of the anti-Christ, or understood in more secular=20 terms, the conclusion that white Americans were to be subjugated was=20 clear. Federal violence, symbolized by the 1992 killing at Ruby Ridge and=20 the burning flames of Waco in 1993 left no doubt in believers' minds=20 about what should be expected. (16)=20 The paramilitary culture merged with mistrust of the government to give=20 birth to the militia movement. Soon, different militias of various sizes=20 and durations mushroomed in the United States, preparing to defend the=20 remnants of American liberties. Though far from all of them harbor=20 explicit white racialist world-views, many of them, like, for example, the = =3D=0D Oklahoma White Militia, do. Mistrusting media, government agencies=20 and other channels of public information, conspiracy theories=20 experienced new heights, informing concerned citizens about various=20 schemes ranging from secret federal concentration camps in which=20 freedom lovers would be rounded up, to a satanic cabal involving=20 presidents, international bankers, and congressmen, who met in secret=20 for cannibalistic and necrophilic rites. (17)=20 It seemed as if America as a white nation had irrevocably lost federal=20 recognition. Whites appeared to be "the only people on the face of the=20 earth that have no national state." (18)=20 The separatist imperative was voiced by the Aryan Nations in their=20 Declaration of Independence, which was "unanimously adopted" on=20 March 12, 1996. "The United States and its `New World Order' has as=20 one of its foremost purposes, the eradication of the white race and its=20 culture." Its object is to establish "absolute [global] tyranny." "Appealin= =3D=0D g=20 to the supreme God of our folk" the representatives of the Aryan people=20 therefore "declare that the Aryan people of America, are and of rights=20 ought to be, a free and independent nation." (19)=20 In the 1990s another white nationalist religious impetus came into the=20 limelight: Odinism. With roots in the occult and/or pagan tendency of=20 German National Socialism, early American Odinist writers like Else=20 Christensen and the New Age-inspired pagan revival of the 1970s and=20 1980s, Odinism made its breakthrough among America's white=20 racialists. It attracted Christian Identity believers "who flirted with=20 Identity because it was simply the only racial theology out there," (20)=20 as well as anti-Christian Creativity adherents who felt the slogan "our=20 race is our religion" did not carry far enough. "There must be something=20 more to it." (21)=20 Odinism, or Wotanism, is a concept used to denote a racially exclusive=20 understanding of pre-Christian Norse religion, or Asatifi. Asatru is a=20 polytheist tribal religion, more akin to Native American traditions than to= =3D=0D =20 monotheistic Christianity. Whereas the omnipotent and omniscient God=20 of Christianity is of a nature fundamentally different from His creation,=20 no such unbridgeable gulf separates the realm of the Gods and=20 Goddesses in Asatru from this world.=20 Asatru is a self-experienced spiritual path whereby man can reconnect=20 with the divine within and with the animated universe in this world and=20 beyond. (22) Through ritualization it is thought possible to connect with=20 the spirits of the land, the ancestors and the guardian forces of nature.=20 Leaders of the rites, the male gothi and female gythia, are not priests in = =3D=0D the Christian sense and are invested with authority by the kindred=20 (congregation) only if they prove themselves worthy in terms of=20 knowledge and spiritual growth. Rather than being obeyed and/or=20 prayed to, the Gods and Goddesses are invoked and invited as=20 participants in the communal rituals, blots, that follow the yearly cycle o= =3D=0D f=20 nature.=20 Many travelers on the Nordic Path in addition practice meditation, runic=20 yoga or rune divination techniques. The polytheist perception of divinity=20 is reflected in the Asatru belief in multiple souls and multiple destinies.= =3D=0D =20 Though many variations exist here, generally it is said that one soul=20 goes to the abode of the dead while another soul departs to the abode=20 of the yet unborn to await his next reincarnation or recurrence. Many=20 Asatruers believe that this follows family lines, and here we touch on an=20 aspect that opens up to racial speculation. Although "race" is a late=20 concept in the history of mankind and was unknown to the ancient pre- Christian Scandinavian cultures, its modem practitioners can hardly=20 avoid its present-day reality.=20 The Asatru revival has much to do with a search for roots and identity,=20 in a similar manner in which many black Americans search for their=20 African roots or Native Americans want to honor their traditions. This=20 may or may not merge with racist ideas, and it should be emphasized=20 that modem Asatru encompasses a broad spectrum of adherents, and=20 far from all of them are inclined toward racialist ideologies. In its=20 position on race, it ranges in a continuum from the radical racialist pole = =3D=0D of Odinism to the anti-racist pole of many kindreds organized in the Ring=20 of Troth network.=20 In the middle are found two of the larger networks, the Asatru Folk=20 Assembly and the Asatru Alliance, whose spokespersons try to distance=20 themselves from either pole. Mike Murray of the Asatru Alliance=20 describes it as the ethnic religion of Northern European peoples, (23)=20 and Stephen McNallen of the Asatru Folk Assembly advances the=20 concept of meta genetics as an avenue for embracing an ancestral faith=20 without falling into the trap of negative racism. An analysis of the=20 Asatru pagan revival in contemporary United States falls outside the=20 scope of this study. (24)=20 Representing more than a hundred congregations, or "kindreds,"=20 operating in the United States and abroad, the racialist Odinist tendency=20 is propa-ated by groups and federations such as the Odinist Fellowship,=20 Wotan's Folk and Rook. Dissatisfied with the multiracial reworking of the=20 American "nation," Odinism aims at "reaching deep into the ancestral=20 past" to reconnect with the "roots of our race" in order to redevelop a=20 lost "folk consciousness. (25)=20 Asserting that each race has a genetic pool of spiritual identity, Odinism = =3D=0D believes that "all Aryans today retain an element of Wotan=20 consciousness," a revival of which would liberate the white man.=20 The Bruder Schweigen is a small closely united group of underground=20 activists, known as the Order.=20 Led by Robert Mathews, the Order initiated in the early 1980s an armed=20 struggle for the liberation of the Aryan race. Following a series of an- nored car robberies and the 1984 assassination of Alan Berg, a liberal=20 Jewish talk radio host in Denver, a dramatic man hunt took place which=20 culminated in Mathews' death and the subsequent capture of the=20 militants. David Lane was sentenced to 190 years, but says that he does=20 not regret anything: "I was only doing my duty and obeyed the will of=20 the higher powers, just as I do now in the greater plan the Gods seem=20 to have for me." During the years that have passed, the Order has=20 grown in significance and David Lane is not infrequently referred to as=20 the Mandela of the white revolution.=20 =20=20 We now turn to a discussion of this interaction in P.4 Oct. 31, 2002.=20 =20=20 1) The Nation of Islam, with an estimated 20,000 members The best=20 introduction of Christian Identity is found in Michael Barkun, Religion and= =3D=0D =20 the Racist Right: The Origins of the Christian Identity Movement (Chapel=20 Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1997).=20 2) The different theories explaining the various races on earth are not=20 necessarily exclusive but have proven able to be combined in multiple=20 variations, without altering the basic theme of a cosmic combat between=20 forces of good and evil represented on earth in human form.=20 3) See, for example, "There Is No Pacifism in the Bible,"=20 Correspondence Bible Course, The American Institute of Theology (used=20 by Butler's Aryan Nations), 199A chapter 86.=20 3) Definition given by Identity believer John Baumgardner, Macintosh,=20 Florida, Nov. 1, 1996.=20 4) Although, as we know, representatives of other tribes also moved=20 here. Britain was Ephraim, in Genesis 35:11 prophesied to become=20 a "company of nations," and Mannaseh was to be a "great nation," i.e.,=20 the United States. "Saxons" were "Isaac's son ... .. Dan" become Dan- mark (Denmark), and so on.=20 5) The practical impact of affirmative action has been marginal=20 compared to the centrality it has in the white racialist world-view where=20 it is used as a symbol for the alleged antiwhite government policies.=20 6) For an illuminating discussion of the new warrior ideal in American=20 male culture, see James William Gibson, Warrior Dreams: Violence and=20 Manhood in Post-Vietnam America (New York: Hill and Wang, 1994).=20 7) The Mahatma letters to A.P. Sinnet have their own internet search=20 engine at:=20 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/psearch.htm=20 8) Annie Besant, The Pedigree of Man (Benares and London:=20 Theosophical Publishing Society, 1904), pp. 150-51.=20 9) Geoffrey Barborka, The Story of Human Evolution (Madras:=20 Theosophical Publishing House, 1979), p. 18.=20 10) Catherine Lowman Wessinger's "Annie Besant and Progressive=20 Messianism" See also:=20=20=20 http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/creation.html=20 11) The practical impact of affirmative action has been marginal=20 compared to the centrality it has in the white racialist world-view where=20 it is used as a symbol for the alleged anti white government policies.=20 12) For an illuminating discussion of the new warrior ideal in American=20 male culture, see James William Gibson, Warrior Dreams: Violence and=20 Manhood in Post-Vietnam America (New York: Hill and Wang, 1994).=20 13) Ben Klassen, RaHoWa: This Planet Is All Ours (Otto, NC: Church of=20 the Creator, : 987), 124ff.=20 14) Interview with Ron McVan, former White Brigade commander, St.=20 Maries, Idaho, September 25, 1996.=20 15) Matt Hale, "It's Decided!" The Struggle: Dedicated to the Survival,=20 Expansion and .Advancement of the White Race, XI, (May 1996).=20 16) During an eleven-day siege of white separatist Randy Weaver's=20 remote Idaho cabin, under the pretext of his arrest for a minor firearms=20 violation, federal agents first killed his teenage son and then shot his=20 wife to death when she went out with their baby in her 3nns. In Waco,=20 Texas, a 51-day federal siege of the Branch Davidian communal=20 settlemerit ended in disaster on April 19, 1993, with nearly 80 sect=20 members consumed in flames.=20 17) Conversation with conspiracy believer Eva Vail, Coeur d'Alene,=20 September 26, 1996, information gathered at a militia conference,=20 Denver, Colorado, November 8-10, 1996.=20 18) "Platform for an Aryan State," Aryan Nations.=20 19) "The Declaration of Independence," revised edition, March 12, 1996.=20 20) Interview with Katja Lane, St. Maries, Idaho, May 6, 1997.=20 21) Interview with Ron McVan, St. Maries, Idaho, September 25, 1996.=20 22) Theosophic Society leaders believed, in gathering up the various=20 (hierarchical) angels and rituals as a means to speed up evolutionary=20 processes. See: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/futurer.html=20 23) Interview with Mike Murray, Payson, Arizona, April 28, 1997.=20 24) Interview with Stephen McNallen, Grass Valley, California, December=20 18, 1996.=20 25) In an interview in Austin Texas, April 17, 1997, Mike Murray thought=20 that Asatru was composed of some 40-50 per cent racialist oriented=20 followers. See also Jeffrey Kaplan, "Radical Religion in America" 1997.=20 26) Interview with Ron McVan of Wotansfolk, St.Maries, Idaho,=20 September 25, 1996.=20 27) Interview with David Lane. November 12, 1996. Maximum Security=20 Prison, Florence, Colorado.=20 M. Sufilight=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "brianmuehlbach" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:49 PM > Subject: Theos-World Re: The Mahatma Letters. >=20 >=20 > > Steve: it must be a matter of interest whether the mahatma > > letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. > > > > Brian: It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence letters are > > what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not > > depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends=20 on if > > you want to believe it or not. > > > > Steve: Kargyu lineage > > > > Brian: Can you show us any authentic document of the Kargyu=20 lineage > > that states as its teacheings that "The highest race (physical > > intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves > > the white conquerors. The majority of mankind > > belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the=20 above > > mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, > > Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of=20 other > > sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third=20 race. All > > these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity." (Mahatma K.H.) ? > > > > > Brian > > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" > > wrote: > > > > Why burden ? If someone claims Elvis is alive and he lives on > > > > Mars with his a wife and 14 children, why "we" have the=20 burden to > > > > establish whether this claim is true or not ? > > > > > > You only have to do so if it is a matter of interest. Since you post= =3D=0D > > > so frequently, it must be a matter of interest whether the=20 mahatma > > > letters are what they say they are or what you say they are. > > > > > > I > > > > don't see a major mystery in the fact that that some of the > > > letters, such > > > > as the Shannon letter, could not have been delivered other=20 then by > > > > either HPB or Damodar. > > > > > > In her bio, even Marion Meade said the Shannon letter was a=20 mystery. > > > > > > > Even Paul Johnson > > > > > > I respect him, but his beliefs do not constitute evidence of=20 anything. > > > > > > > In fact Steve, no Indian/Thibetan/or Oriental person in their > > > right mind > > > > would write what these so called "Mahatmas" wrote like" "The > > > highest > > > > race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -= =3D=0D - > > > yourselves > > > > the white conquerors. > > > > > > "White" in India referred to the Bramin caste, which was believed=20 to > > > be the ancestor of the British, a la the Aryan invasion and=20 migration > > > theory. > > > > > > > So with "White" Brotherhood was clearly intended just that, > > > whoever > > > > wrote this clearly identified himself/herself with white "Aryan" > > > not even > > > > Indian. > > > > > > Not true. The "white" lineage of Tibet (Kargyu lineage) has=20 nothing > > > to do with white skin an more than the Nyingma has to do with=20 red > > > skin or the Gelugs has anything to do with yellow skin. > > > > > > Besides, Blavatsky never used the phrase "white brotherhood."=20=20 That > > > was Mabel Collins who did tht. The term was popularized by > > > Leadbearter, who claimed to be hobnobbing with mahatmas on a > > moment > > > by moment basis, as well as doing all sorts of other improbable > > > things. > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 01 09:00:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 17:00:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 15196 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 17:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 17:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.86) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 17:00:07 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 17:00:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 17:00:06 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6831 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brian/Brigitte has quoted several times this extract from the Mahatma Letters: "The highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub-race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity." (Mahatma K.H.) Some observations are as follows: (1) It is good to know that Brian/Brigitte can actually use quotation marks! In the past on numerous occasions, Brian/Brigitte has copied material from other writers without adding quotation marks to the appropriated material and without acknowledging the person who wrote the material. At least in this instance Mahatma K.H. is given credit .....! (2) But it is somewhat strange to me that B/B does NOT cite the exact source for this quotation. B/B says it can be found on the Internet. At the very least a note could have been added: Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm (3) Now COMPARE AND CONTRAST what was quoted by B/B with the following more complete quote from the above URL: "I told you before now, that the highest people now on earth (spiritually) belong to the first sub-race of the fifth root Race; and those are the Aryan Asiatics; the highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors. The majority of mankind belongs to the seventh sub- race of the fourth Root race, -- the above mentioned Chinamen and their off-shoots and branchlets (Malayans, Mongolians, Tibetans, Javanese, etc., etc., etc.) and remnants of other sub-races of the fourth -- and the seventh sub-race of the third race. All these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity are the direct lineal descendants of highly civilized nations neither the names nor memory of which have survived except in such books as Popalvul and a few others unknown to Science." Certainly this extract gives a better context than the material that B/B decided to quote. . . . Actually one should carefully read and study more of this letter than what I am even quoting now in order to understand the Mahatma's ideas. (4) Is Brian/Brigitte quoting this extract to show us that the Mahatma is a racist? ". . . all these, fallen, degraded semblances of humanity. . . . " Is this phrase a racist statement? Or what about this statement: ". . . the highest race (physical intellectuality) is the last sub- race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors." Does this mean that "white" people constitute the "superior" race and that all other people of the earth are their "inferiors" --- "fallen, degraded semblances of humanity"? If this is B/B's contention then I must say that such a superficial "interpretation" ignores the whole teaching concerning the evolution of all races THROUGH cycles of time, etc. that is found in THE MAHATMA LETTERS, THE SECRET DOCTRINE and in other writings of Blavatsky. (5) Brian/Brigitte, tell us what is YOUR UNDERSTANDING of what will happen ACCORDING TO THE MAHATMAS AND BLAVATSKY through time to "the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors'? It is said more than once in the above titles that ALL "races" are born, grow to maturity and then decline, degenerate and face death. "The human Races are born one from the other, grow, develop, become old, and die. Their sub-races and nations follow the same rule." The Secret Doctrine, Vol. 2, Page 443-444 My understanding is that through the coming cycles of time "the last sub-race of the fifth" will ALSO become "fallen, degraded semblances of humanity". For instance, read the SD, Vol. 2, pp. 444-445. "Thus the Americans have become in only three centuries a "primary race," pro tem., before becoming a race apart, and strongly separated from all other now existing races. They are, in short, the germs of the Sixth sub-race, and in some few hundred years more, will become most decidedly the pioneers of that race which must succeed to the present European or fifth sub-race, in all its new characteristics. After this, in about 25,000 years, they will launch into preparations for the seventh sub-race; until, in consequence of cataclysms -- the first series of those which must one day destroy Europe, and still later the whole Aryan race (and thus affect both Americas), as also most of the lands directly connected with the confines of our continent and isles -- the Sixth Root-Race will have appeared on the stage of our Round. . . . it [Sixth Root-Race] will silently come into existence; so silently, indeed, that for long millenniums shall its pioneers -- the peculiar children who will grow into peculiar men and women -- be regarded as anomalous lusus naturae, abnormal oddities physically and mentally. Then, as they increase, and their numbers become with every age greater, one day they will awake to find themselves in a majority. It is the present men who will then begin to be regarded as exceptional mongrels, until these die out in their turn in civilised lands; surviving only in small groups on islands -- the mountain peaks of to-day -- where they will vegetate, degenerate, and finally die out, perhaps millions of years hence, as the Aztecs have, as the Nyam-Nyam and the dwarfish Moola Koorumba of the Nilghiri Hills are dying. All these are the remnants of once mighty races, the recollection of whose existence has entirely died out of the remembrance of the modern generations, just as we shall vanish from the memory of the Sixth Race Humanity. The Fifth will overlap the Sixth Race for many hundreds of millenniums, changing with it slower than its new successor, still changing in stature, general physique, and mentality, just as the Fourth overlapped our Aryan race, and the Third had overlapped the Atlanteans." Please Brian/Brigitte . . . RE-READ and study and ponder on the meaning of the following sentence: "It is the PRESENT MEN [including "the last sub-race of the fifth -- yourselves the white conquerors"?] who will then begin to be regarded as exceptional mongrels, until these die out in their turn in civilised lands; surviving only in small groups on islands -- the mountain peaks of to-day -- where they will vegetate, DEGENERATE, and finally die out, perhaps millions of years hence, as the Aztecs have, as the Nyam-Nyam and the dwarfish Moola Koorumba of the Nilghiri Hills are dying." caps added. Much more could be said on just this one aspect of the subject. Daniel From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 01 10:35:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 18:35:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 35323 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 18:35:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 18:35:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.91) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 18:35:08 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.182] by n7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 18:35:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 18:35:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' . . . . Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6423 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell SUBJECT: 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' EUPHEMISM OF THEOSOPHY . . . . Brian/Brigitte quotes an anonymous correspondent who writes about those "Theosophists" who are "racists." I quote only a portion of the text: ---------------------------------------------- "HER [Blavatsky's] RACE THEORY IS THE THREAD TYING ALL OF THESE ELITISTS TOGETHER. RACISTS IN INDIA, PERSIA, SRI LANKA, THE MIDDLE EAST (THROUGH MAYAVADI SUFISM), EGYPT (MORE MAYAVADA SUFISM), JAPAN, EUROPE, RUSSIA AND THE AMERICAS...ALL AROUND THE WORLD, 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS ( AND THEIR 'HIGHER'-RACES CO-CONSPIRATORS) NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' EUPHEMISM OF THEOSOPHY. EVERYWHERE THEY DENIED RACISM, BUT WHAT IS THE RESULT OF THEIR INFLUENCE ? "BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM". I PERSONALLY MET THEOSOPHISTS IN JAPAN, SRI LANKA, INDIA AND NEPAL, IMPERSONALISM, ANTI SEMITISM , AND CONSIDERING 'BLACKS' TO BE ANIMALS WAS COMMON TO ALL OF THEM. *** SECRET DOCTRINE INDEX SD INDEX Sinhalese heirs to giants of Lanka II 407-8 regard Veddhas as animals II 286-7 VEDDAS ARE THE INDIGENOUS NEGROS OF SOUTH INDIA." ----------------------------------------------------- End of the quote. My observations are as follows: (1) In the above quote, a good number of assertions are piled one upon each other but without any valid evidence given to prove these assertions other than: "I PERSONALLY MET THEOSOPHISTS. . . . " (2) FORTUNATELY, I have never met a "Theosophist" with such beliefs as those described above!!! (3) The anonymous writer asserts: "EVERYWHERE THEY DENIED RACISM. . . . " If that is so, then how did the anonynmous writer gain the knowledge that they were racists? Did they only confide in him? Did they come right out and tell him that they believed "'BLACKS' TO BE ANIMALS" and that they were also ANTI SEMITIC? (4) Furthermore, why is the reader referred to the SD index for the info that "Sinhalese . . . regard Veddhas as animals"? Notice that this is followed by the commentary: "VEDDAS ARE THE INDIGENOUS NEGROS OF SOUTH INDIA." Were these Sinhalese actually "Theosophists"? Or were the Sinhalese influenced by all those racist Theosophists? In other words, what are we suppose to conclude from this tidbit of info given by the anonymous writer? Is the anonymous writer wanting us to conclude that Madame Blavatsky also believed that the Veddhas were "animals"? Actually, I'm very glad that the anonymous writer brought up the text of SD II, pp. 286-7. I quote a part of the text. H.P. Blavatsky writes: ". . . even in our own day, while the Singhalese regard the Veddhas of their jungles as speaking animals and no more, some British people believe firmly, in their arrogance, that every other human family -- especially the dark Indians -- is an inferior race. Moreover there are naturalists who have sincerely considered the problem whether some savage tribes -- like the Bushmen for instance -- can be regarded as men at all. . . . " Let me pull out one statement and focus on that: ". . . some British people believe firmly, IN THEIR ARROGANCE, that every other human family -- especially the DARK Indians -- is an INFERIOR race." caps added. Isn't this "attitude" or "belief" by some British people what the Mahatma K.H. is referring to (indirectly) when he writes to A.P. Sinnett about "yourselves the white conquerors" [of India and other British colonies]? In a Dec. 1880 letter to Sinnett, K.H. brings up this same subject in some detail: "My dear, good friend, you must not bear me a grudge for what I say to him of the English in general. They are haughty. To us especially, so that we regard it as a national feature. And, you must not confound your own private views -- especially those you have now -- with those of your countrymen in general. Few, if any -- (of course with such exceptions as yourself, where intensity of aspirations makes one disregard all other considerations) -- would ever consent to have 'a nigger' for a guide or leader, no more than a modern Desdemona would choose an Indian Othello nowadays. The prejudice of race is intense, and even in free England we are regarded as an 'inferior race.' And this same tone vibrates in your own remark about 'a man of the people unused to refined ways' and 'a foreigner but a gentleman,' the latter being the man to be preferred. Nor would a Hindu be likely to have such a lack of 'refined ways' disregarded in him were he 'an adept' twenty times over again; and this very same trait appears prominent in Viscount Amberley's criticism on the 'underbred Jesus.' Had you paraphrased your sentence and said: -- 'a foreigner but no gentleman' (according to English notions) you could not have added as you did, that he would be thought the fittest. Hence, I say it again, that the majority of our Anglo- Indians, among whom the terms 'Hindu' or 'Asiatic' is generally coupled with a vague yet actual idea of one who uses his fingers instead of a bit of cambric, and who abjures soap -- would most certainly prefer an American to 'a greasy Tibetan.' But you need not tremble for me. Whenever I make my appearance -- whether astrally or physically -- before my friend A. P. Sinnett, I will not forget to invest a certain sum in a square of the finest Chinese silk to carry in my chogga pocket, nor to create an atmosphere of sandal-wood and cashmere roses." Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-5.htm Also notice what the Chohan communicated to Sinnett and Hume: ". . . the Theosophical Society was chosen as the corner stone, the foundation of the future religion of humanity. To achieve the proposed object a greater, wiser, and especially a more benevolent intermingling of the high and the low, of the alpha and the omega of society, was determined upon. The white race must be the first to stretch out the hand of fellowship to the dark nations, to call the poor despised 'nigger' brothers. This prospect may not smile to all. He is no Theosophist who objects to this principle. . . ." Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-choh.htm Does Brian/Brigitte and the anonymous writer want us to believe that Blavatsky, KH and the Chohan were also "'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS" with as much ARROGANCE as the British? Daniel From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 01 10:44:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 18:44:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 42611 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 18:44:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 18:44:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 18:44:30 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a4912a.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.145.42]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id A2E2F263D1A for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:44:28 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <002b01c281d6$09e6cba0$2a91a483@opasia.dk> To: "Theos-Talk" Subject: The Racist "Mahatma Letter"... Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:39:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all of you, The letter frequently referred to by Brian (not to confuse with "Brain"...>= :-) a friendly joke ...) seems to be found at: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm It dates the year 1882. I have one important question to Caldwell and others. Do you know what the = exact year was when this letter first was made public - for real ? I claim this (i.e. not being 100% certain using the ESP): This letter is NOT a Mahatma Letter in its original form, i.e. the form it = was presented to A. P. Sinnett. Someone - NOT a Master changed it or did rewrite the letter - and a someone= has even released it to official view. (I.e. time as such has sort of changed the letters content of information.) A view we experience today on the Internet via the above link. Prove me wrong if you can ! Let us remember, that the Dugpas(i.e. Fake spiritualists) also can play wit= h the magic fire. Bacause the letter has been made official in the version it has with its - = "careless" - remarks on races and sub-races, and because of later historica= l events - especially Hitlers Swastika and his and his friends deeds of evi= l - and their racist MASTERACE ("=DCbermensch") theories,=20 and because of the present Thesophical groups use of the Swastika,=20 and because of a greater groups of theosophists being the followers of eith= er C.W. Leadebeaters - clearly fake 6th subrace version in his book - "Man = Whence how and Whither" - (not to mention A. Besants involvment). OR certain Alice A. Bailey groups ("westernized aryan anti-global-view ") i= nterpretation of the wisdom-tachings --- then --- true Theosophy - and the Ancient Wisdom Teachings of all ages have a proble= m today defending such a letter without being called racists or the like. My knowledge about the masters make me seek to defend them here. A true MASTER would have (to a certain degree a least) forseen these - raci= st - tendencies, issues and historical events AND secured - either - that t= he letter wasn't made public - so no misunderstandings would have ar(a)isen= (I think Caldwell is right here RE-read the whole letter - using a spiritu= al sense of mind. But when read dead-letter - you get trouble.) - or the Ma= ster would have known that the letter would be made into a forgery - and th= en rested in peace ! Or... My view is, this: The reason why H.P. Blavatsky didn't interfer on this let= ter being a fake was, that karma, time and circumstances didn't allow this = to happen. The whole idea about the Mahatma letters was this :=20 The students of Theosophy should not believe - blindly - everything - every= one says about the Mahatmas and what is said, that They write in letters an= d What they do and What they say !!! And that is the truth and nothing but the truth so God - ParaBrahman help y= ou all. Ponder on this: Has any magician ever changed ANY of the Mahatma letters af= ter they was read the first time ? Has any Master changed one of them later= on in time and space ? Did he/she (or "it" or they) change the paper or th= e ink ? Do we then REALLY know if they are REAL ? My view is NO, not unlees we are recognized Chelas ! And please do use the '7 keys' which Blavatsky refers to, - if you can - wh= ile reading my letter(s). All this talk about races. And Martin Luther King Jr. who wanted us all to transcend our race, tribe, = spiritual -and national narrowmindedness. When will this happen ? (PS.: Thanks to Master Morya for standing by my side...well I guess..>:-)) = No spiritual 'Panama' channels here or perfumes - but just a joke.) Take care ! This email could be a (spiritual) decoy... Feel free to do your very best. from M. Sufilight with patience...=20 and a brand new Mahatma Letter year 2002, date 1st november, hour GMT18:39.= .. and laughs... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ramadoss@gbronline.com Fri Nov 01 11:41:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 19:41:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 68775 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 19:41:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 19:41:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 19:41:31 -0000 Received: from mkr1.gbronline.com [209.12.90.116] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.13) id A8832E0401E2; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 13:39:47 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.1.5.2.20021101134225.00a27930@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 13:44:24 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' . . . . In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 06:35 PM 11/1/02 +0000, you wrote: >Isn't this "attitude" or "belief" by some British people what the >Mahatma K.H. is referring to (indirectly) when he writes to A.P. >Sinnett about "yourselves the white conquerors" [of India and other >British colonies]? In this century, Aliester Crowley reported to have called Jiddu Krishnamurti as "nigger". Nothing surprising about the British attitude towards dark skinned people. mkr ---------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.408 / Virus Database: 230 - Release Date: 10/24/02 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Fri Nov 01 11:58:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 19:58:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 27852 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 19:58:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 19:58:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 19:58:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.162] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2002 19:58:14 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 19:58:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: ". . . Theosophy suggest[s] that a black skin is a curse . . . . " ??? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1105 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell It is quite interesting to read the following article just posted today [Nov. 1] on Brian/Brigitte's website: "Debate: Black and White, plus Australian Aborigines" http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/austrab.html Unfortunately, it is an article which has far too many misleading and false statements. I guess some people are quite talented at doing things like this!! :) Here is a wonderful statement by the editor (I assume this is Brian/Brigitte writing from Vienna): "That both Mormonism and Theosophy suggest that a black skin is a curse for having sinned in the pre-existence (never mind Theosophists call it "karma") is an interesting corollary which requires further research." Leaving Mormonism aside, where is the text in Blavatsky's writings or in the Mahatma Letters that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that "a black skin is a curse for having sinned in the pre- existence (never mind Theosophists call it 'karma')"? I can't wait for Brian/Brigitte to give us the proper citations to the texts! :) I know I shouldn't hold my breath in the meantime. Daniel From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Fri Nov 01 12:38:12 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 20:38:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 1370 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 20:38:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 20:38:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 20:38:11 -0000 Received: from kidhr (0x83a4912a.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.145.42]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id CA14A482851 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:38:09 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <000601c281e5$ebe14c60$2a91a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' . . . . Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:33:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Daniel and all of you, Yes let us see if Brian would dare answer on that ! >:-) from M. Sufilight with great hopes and expectations...well maybe... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" To: Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:35 PM Subject: Theos-World 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' . . . . > SUBJECT: 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS... NETWORKED UNDER THE 'UNIVERSAL > BROTHERHOOD' EUPHEMISM OF THEOSOPHY . . . . > > Brian/Brigitte quotes an anonymous correspondent who writes about > those "Theosophists" who are "racists." I quote only a portion of > the text: > > ---------------------------------------------- > > "HER [Blavatsky's] RACE THEORY IS THE THREAD TYING ALL OF THESE > ELITISTS TOGETHER. RACISTS IN INDIA, PERSIA, SRI LANKA, THE > MIDDLE EAST (THROUGH MAYAVADI SUFISM), EGYPT (MORE > MAYAVADA SUFISM), JAPAN, EUROPE, RUSSIA AND THE > AMERICAS...ALL AROUND THE WORLD, 'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS ( > AND THEIR 'HIGHER'-RACES CO-CONSPIRATORS) NETWORKED UNDER > THE 'UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD' EUPHEMISM OF THEOSOPHY. > EVERYWHERE THEY DENIED RACISM, BUT WHAT IS THE RESULT OF > THEIR INFLUENCE ? "BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM". I > PERSONALLY MET THEOSOPHISTS IN JAPAN, SRI LANKA, INDIA AND > NEPAL, IMPERSONALISM, ANTI SEMITISM , AND > CONSIDERING 'BLACKS' TO BE ANIMALS WAS COMMON TO ALL OF > THEM. > *** > SECRET DOCTRINE INDEX > SD INDEX Sinhalese > heirs to giants of Lanka II 407-8 > regard Veddhas as animals II 286-7 > > VEDDAS ARE THE INDIGENOUS NEGROS OF SOUTH INDIA." > ----------------------------------------------------- > > End of the quote. > > > My observations are as follows: > > (1) In the above quote, a good number of assertions are piled one > upon each other but without any valid evidence given to prove these > assertions other than: "I PERSONALLY MET THEOSOPHISTS. . . . " > > (2) FORTUNATELY, I have never met a "Theosophist" with such beliefs > as those described above!!! > > (3) The anonymous writer asserts: "EVERYWHERE THEY DENIED > RACISM. . . . " > > If that is so, then how did the anonynmous writer gain the knowledge > that they were racists? Did they only confide in him? Did they come > right out and tell him that they believed "'BLACKS' TO BE ANIMALS" > and that they were also ANTI SEMITIC? > > (4) Furthermore, why is the reader referred to the SD index for the > info that "Sinhalese . . . regard Veddhas as animals"? > > Notice that this is followed by the commentary: > > "VEDDAS ARE THE INDIGENOUS NEGROS OF SOUTH INDIA." > > Were these Sinhalese actually "Theosophists"? Or were the Sinhalese > influenced by all those racist Theosophists? > > In other words, what are we suppose to conclude from this tidbit of > info given by the anonymous writer? > > Is the anonymous writer wanting us to conclude that Madame Blavatsky > also believed that the Veddhas were "animals"? > > Actually, I'm very glad that the anonymous writer brought up the text > of SD II, pp. 286-7. > > I quote a part of the text. H.P. Blavatsky writes: > > ". . . even in our own day, while the Singhalese regard the Veddhas > of their jungles as speaking animals and no more, some British people > believe firmly, in their arrogance, that every other human family -- > especially the dark Indians -- is an inferior race. Moreover there > are naturalists who have sincerely considered the problem whether > some savage tribes -- like the Bushmen for instance -- can be > regarded as men at all. . . . " > > Let me pull out one statement and focus on that: > > ". . . some British people believe firmly, IN THEIR ARROGANCE, that > every other human family -- especially the DARK Indians -- is an > INFERIOR race." caps added. > > Isn't this "attitude" or "belief" by some British people what the > Mahatma K.H. is referring to (indirectly) when he writes to A.P. > Sinnett about "yourselves the white conquerors" [of India and other > British colonies]? > > In a Dec. 1880 letter to Sinnett, K.H. brings up this same subject in > some detail: > > "My dear, good friend, you must not bear me a grudge for what I say > to him of the English in general. They are haughty. To us especially, > so that we regard it as a national feature. And, you must not > confound your own private views -- especially those you have now -- > with those of your countrymen in general. Few, if any -- (of course > with such exceptions as yourself, where intensity of aspirations > makes one disregard all other considerations) -- would ever consent > to have 'a nigger' for a guide or leader, no more than a modern > Desdemona would choose an Indian Othello nowadays. The prejudice of > race is intense, and even in free England we are regarded as > an 'inferior race.' And this same tone vibrates in your own remark > about 'a man of the people unused to refined ways' and 'a foreigner > but a gentleman,' the latter being the man to be preferred. Nor would > a Hindu be likely to have such a lack of 'refined ways' disregarded > in him were he 'an adept' twenty times over again; and this very same > trait appears prominent in Viscount Amberley's criticism on > the 'underbred Jesus.' Had you paraphrased your sentence and said: -- > 'a foreigner but no gentleman' (according to English notions) you > could not have added as you did, that he would be thought the > fittest. Hence, I say it again, that the majority of our Anglo- > Indians, among whom the terms 'Hindu' or 'Asiatic' is generally > coupled with a vague yet actual idea of one who uses his fingers > instead of a bit of cambric, and who abjures soap -- would most > certainly prefer an American to 'a greasy Tibetan.' But you need not > tremble for me. Whenever I make my appearance -- whether astrally or > physically -- before my friend A. P. Sinnett, I will not forget to > invest a certain sum in a square of the finest Chinese silk to carry > in my chogga pocket, nor to create an atmosphere of sandal-wood and > cashmere roses." Quoted from: > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-5.htm > > Also notice what the Chohan communicated to Sinnett and Hume: > > ". . . the Theosophical Society was chosen as the corner stone, the > foundation of the future religion of humanity. To achieve the > proposed object a greater, wiser, and especially a more benevolent > intermingling of the high and the low, of the alpha and the omega of > society, was determined upon. The white race must be the first to > stretch out the hand of fellowship to the dark nations, to call the > poor despised 'nigger' brothers. This prospect may not smile to all. > He is no Theosophist who objects to this principle. . . ." Quoted > from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-choh.htm > > Does Brian/Brigitte and the anonymous writer want us to believe that > Blavatsky, KH and the Chohan were also "'WHITE' ARYANIST RACISTS" > with as much ARROGANCE as the British? > > Daniel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Nov 01 12:55:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 1 Nov 2002 20:55:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 28894 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2002 20:55:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2002 20:55:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 2002 20:55:51 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.7b.1382a0b (3964) for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:55:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7b.1382a0b.2af4444b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:55:39 EST Subject: Consciousness and Cosmogenesis To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 I would like to offer a recent dialogue with a scientist on the Cognition a= nd=20 Consciousness Journal's Mind/Brain online forum, that seems to be pertinent= =20 to the study of universal and individual consciousness from a theosophical= =20 point of view. Perhaps, it may also awaken some new insights with respect = to=20 the second fundamental principle and the laws of karma, cycles and=20 periodicity, as well as offering some scientifically consistent answers to= =20 the problem of understanding the involutional basis of Cosmogenesis and the= =20 interrelationship of unchanging consciousness or awareness and changeable=20 matter or form.=20 Incidentally, while not yet entirely accepted by mainstream science, the=20 unified field theories of Superstring/M-branes, with it's 3 physical and 7= =20 enfolded hyperspace dimensions, is not too far away from these scientifical= ly=20 rooted theosophical views -- although it has not yet considered anything mo= re=20 than the phenomenal aspects of universal energy fields. (For a clear=20 layman's view of the scope of this new scientific paradigm, go to=20 superstringtheory.com ) I hope this proves interesting in light of HPB's prediction that science wi= ll=20 soon be faced with irrefutable answers to their most profound questions tha= t=20 may bring it closer into agreement with the fundamental principles of=20 theosophy and its metaphysical conclusions.=20=20 LHM In a message dated 10/12/02 10:39:51 AM, stonjek@ozemail.com.au writes: >Leon: >As an added question... Since you insist on downgrading both Alex's and my >theories (which could be integrated, since my theory agrees with his/her >theory of "geometric mental space") -- what logical and scientifically >consistent theory do you have that better explains the fundamental origin, >nature, genealogy, ontology and epistemology of thought, qualia, awareness >and will? Or, IOW, what holds together the brother-sister act of >consciousness and matter? > >RKS: >The assumption seems to be that the sensorial world is broken down and >then put back together again, just as it is. In other words, the world is >reconstructed on a spatial template. That's closer to but not exactly my assumption. We can't deny that the 3-D= =20 world we see in our mind's eye, is the near perfect image of the 3-D world= =20 that exists in our surrounding space. Therefore, we can say that the=20 objective world is broken down into pixels by the rods and cones in the=20 retinas that are directly related to corresponding "coherent" point source= =20 rays of light reflected from the objects of perception. (This laser like=20 characteristic of each such image point is certainly a reasonable enough=20 basis for a holographic field theory of consciousness.) Therefore, I can proceed to hypothesize that from that initial transformati= on=20 of image information onward through the neural system, these pixels are=20 further transformed into analogues electrical wave forms by the brain's=20 electrochemical neurological network that, when images in left and right=20 brain from either left or right eye (or both) are combined, create=20 holographic interference patterns in the dual brain's combined em field. Th= is=20 field is then transferred holistically (by a form of inductive resonance) t= o=20 the higher frequency order mind/memory fields in Kaluza-Klien hyperspace.=20 The image patterns from both left and right brain are then reconstructed in= to=20 a continuous holographic 3-D image by the single zero-point at the center o= f=20 these "consciousness" fields that are coadunate and "entangled" with all th= e=20 zero-point centers of the higher order field of each rod and cone, as well = as=20 with the corresponding zero-point sources of reflected light from the objec= t=20 world. The result is a complete 3-dimensional image in our mental space th= at=20 has apparently infinite depth outward in front of our eyes, and appears to = be=20 as if viewed from a single (zero dimensional) focal point between and behin= d=20 the eyes. (Naturally, the lower order mass/energy fields would appear to b= e=20 completely transparent to the higher order mind/memory fields.)=20=20 >If this is so, then one would expect spatial extension to be primal. That >is, the first thing and the last thing, with all the objects that can exis= t >in that space added to the template as they are perceived. Spatial extension is primal -- since space is nothing more than a series of= =20 nested triune transcendental hyperspace and metric space fields of descendi= ng=20 frequency orders or phases that are spherically extended out to an apparenn= t=20=20 multidimensional infinity from a single zero-point singularity -- with each= =20 field linked to each other through their coadunate zero-point centers. The= =20 templates are carried by the modulations of the energy frequencies on the=20 surfaces of the enfolded field phases. >I've pointed out that all the physical evidence seems to point to no prima= l >geometry. It doesn't seem to feature in the way the vision is processed. >Optical illusions seem to indicate that we are easily fooled by geometric >illusions. This all points to a visual geometry that is added on to some >other kind of perceptual substrate or scaffold. What physical evidence? How can we physically measure the dimensions of the= =20 inner holostic field we perceive? How do you think the holographic image o= ut=20 there that we see is processed in here? What scientific proof is there tha= t=20 vision -- as we experience it in holographic 3-dimensionality that closely,= =20 if not exactly matches the objective outer world we can measure -- is=20 processed in any other way than as I hypothesize?=20=20 This reference to illusions is also an inappropriate example, since most=20 optical illusions are based on 2-D graphical images that have no relationsh= ip=20 to the real world 3-D holographic image that we actually "see" in our=20 mental/memory space. It's the 2-D image analogs and their twisted geometry= 's=20 that cause such illusions, since the mind/memory forces the perceptive=20 awareness (our-selves) to compare apples to oranges, so to speak, and make= =20 best fit decisions. Since most graphical illusions also contain more than o= ne=20 fit, the consciousness can only oscillate between them. Some illusions als= o=20 have to do with the fatigue levels of the rods and cones, due to short term= =20 chemical changes and reversible reactions throughout the neural system. = =20 Also, much of the relationships of geometry, such as perspectives, have to = be=20 learned, such as interpreting leaning buildings when we look up at them as= =20 being perfectly vertical. Many illusions use these learned anomalies to=20 trick us into interpreting straight lines as curved, parallel lines as=20 converging, etc. In any event, none of this negates the idea of an=20 interconnected spherical field geometry being fundamental -- no matter in=20 what phase of Cosmogenetic field involution they occur. How we interpret th= e=20 actual geometry of our visual field through our mind/memory/awareness syste= m=20 is quite another thing that depends much on our experience, learning abilit= y=20 and intelligence. >Others have argued passionately and convincingly that a language, even >a language such as the language spoken, forms the scaffold onto which all >else is added (or, that all perception is interpreted as or translated int= o >a language). The two opposite poles of consciousness (subjectivity) and its corollary,=20 matter (objectivity) came into existence at the moment the first energy fie= ld=20 of the universe emanated out of the "spinergy" of the primal zero-point=20 singularity. Language only appears at the last stages of evolution of=20 biological forms -- that were all conscious starting from their single cell= ed=20 beginning during the final physical phase of Cosmogenesis (that had to=20 involve in multiple phases or hyperspace dimensions from the first near=20 infinite frequency/energy, to the finite frequenci/energies of the last=20 physical phase). All this involution had occur prior to the evolution of t= he=20 matter/energy that we observe in our space-time continuum. >Others argue for the breakdown of the perceptual world into its symbolic >or relational components eg "point-field" or "focus-peripheral". Makes no sense. Those are just words without any apparent scientific or=20 logical causation behind such relationships.=20=20 >How does our clear cut geometry resolve the actual visual field that is >furry around the edges?? How does it resolve the extra sensitivity that w= e >have to transient peripheral events?? Clearly our actual perceptual field >begins with light/dark differentia at the extreme peripheral, transient >motion or change closer in, structure and depth closer than that (geometry= ) >and colour, clear edges and focus at the centre of our vision. That may be so. But, What does "furry around the edges" mean? The geometry= =20 is already there in the physical world that we can take our rulers out and= =20 measure. The fact that the subjective image is most sharp at the center of= =20 our vision has to do with the mechanisms of the retina's rods, cones and=20 connective neural system that transfers their coherent optical images into = a=20 holistic electromagnetic analog on a point for point basis to form inner=20 holographic image interference patterns in our visual or subjective space=20 (enfolded higher order field phase) that is an exact geometric replica of t= he=20 outer physical objective space after holographic reconstruction by point=20 source rays of coherent "inner light" projected from the zero-point's=20 spinergy. Much of the visual limitations you speak of have to do with the= =20 necessity for convergence and focus in order to be able to concentrate on a= =20 particular point in the image field without distraction from the peripheral= =20 areas (other than being alert to motion in those areas). This has to do wit= h=20 our survival inherited from our hunter and hunted forbears. Much can be sai= d=20 about it from a psychological or evolutionary POV -- although it has nothin= g=20 much to do with the inner and outer field geometry's and image=20 transformational processes being discussed. These are nothing more than field effects on the informational level, that= =20 have to follow logical and lawfully consistent image transformational and=20 transfer/transmission processes. In this theory, the zero-points of=20 awareness/will (that are everywhere) emits coherent rays of the highest=20 frequency order "light" that reconstructs the hologram carried in the=20 mind/memory field circumferences (that are nowhere). The fact that we learn= =20 the meaning of these images and take the most practical shortcuts to=20 perceptive recognition's and responses based on sometimes wrongly condition= ed=20 or misapplied memory as well as inattention and distraction, doesn't change= =20 the basic nature or structure of the analogous geometric field we perceive= =20 (i.e., look at, but not necessarily "see"). >Why, then, would geometry be the template? You mention the importance >of geometry in most if not all fields of science. But equal with geometry >is energy/mass. Earlier big bang theories such as the primeval atom and >Gamow's hot big bang placed a much greater importance on the history of >the energy mass of the universe than the geometry. That's because the only things that could be measured and examined=20 reductively was the energy/mass. But the forms of energy/mass are built of= =20 interacting fields of energy that are all fundamentally spherical in nature= =20 (unless interfered with by other impinging fields that break their symmetry= ).=20 In any event, the geometry of the primal fields before the breaking of the= ir=20 symmetry is as fundamental as is their energy/mass equivalency -- e.g., The= =20 nature of DNA can much better be understood if we see the geometry's and=20 resultant topologies of their amino acids and proteins as being fundamental= =20 to their functions. Could that be why the artists and architects of the=20 Bauhaus took as their motto, "form follows function?" They could just as=20 well have based that on their conclusion from nature that "function follows= =20 form." In any event, what we consciously experience of the universe itself,= =20 through the mechanisms of vision alone, is nothing but it's geometry (which= =20 is as fundamental as its force or energy). >Time is also an essential component. All phenomena occur 'in time'. Why >isn't time more important than geometry? When you close your eyes, when >you dream, as long as you are alive there is a clear relationship with tim= e. >Geometry plays a major role in vision and a lesser role with other senses. >For free thought, say the contemplation of pure math problems, it plays >no role whatsoever. Who ever implied that geometry was more fundamental than time? For the=20 Universe to begin prior to the "big bang" (which we can only measure on the= =20 physical phase of its involution and evolution) -- abstract motion and=20 absolute non motion were the only fundamentals. Out of those beginnings,=20 expressing themselves as multidimensional spherical geometry's around a=20 stationary point, came energy/Mass, inertia, entropy, and time (simply as t= he=20 measure of change within the field of 3-dimensional space -- not as a=20 directional dimension, even though contrived to be used as such in order to= =20 make Einstein's intuitive 4-dimensional space-time continuum mathematics=20 work out satisfactorily). As for geometry playing a lesser role than the=20 other=20 senses, I do not think that is true, since the aural sense is closely linke= d=20 to geometry, as is the tactile (and pain) sense which are dependent on the= =20 geometry of the sound space=A0as well as the body space. We can always ask= ,=20 where is a conscious experience felt, seen, heard, or coming from or locate= d=20 spatially? As for free thought, how can we separate the equations we "see" in our mind= ,=20 and write down on paper, as being independent of the geometrical mind space= =20 around them, or surrounding the paper, pencil, and hand we write them down = on=20 and with? No matter what we are thinking, we can never separate those=20 thoughts from the 3-D space we are always at the center of. Such thoughts= =20 are always somewhere else out there (even if that "out there" is in the min= d=20 field) some distance away from the point of awareness that is considering=20 them. There also has to be a close geometrical relationship between what w= e=20 see, what we are thinking, and what we do with our body within the visual=20 field. This could only occur coordinately if there is a direct field=20 connection between these different aspects of our being. Since these=20 connections are below our perceptive awareness, their practice (such as=20 writing, playing music, speaking, singing, etc.) creates new reinforced=20 neurological channels in the brain and corresponding patterns in the=20 mind/memory fields that make such actions apparently automatic.=20 >If there were a universal template for consciousness (that is borrowed fro= m >the perceptual world) it would be time. But something approaching qualia >is more likely. I doubt that either time or qualia has anything to do with the geometry of= =20 perception, since qualia is the perception or experience itself, and can on= ly=20 be the awareness function of the zero-point center of consciousness -- whic= h=20 is separate (a different aspect of fundamental "space") from the "field"=20 images or contents of consciousness. And, time is nothing more than the=20 "measure of change" which is dependent on the frequency order or phase=20 of the multispacial field of action it is associated with. In any such fie= ld=20 it is=20 inversely proportional to the speed of the "light" in that field -- with th= e=20 speed of light in the higher order hyperspatial fields being much faster th= an=20 in the physical space-time continuum. Thus, images or forms in those field= s=20 are progressively longer lasting as they get closer to the frequency of the= =20 first expressed field of the primal zero-point spinergy itself (which is of= =20 infinite frequency, momentum, and velocity -- and, thus, of infinite=20 duration). >I've no doubt that yours and Alex's theories play a role. But presenting >them as primary may be a little optimistic. And expecting to find a littl= e >world inside the brain that geometrically mirrors the world outside is >just silly. There is no need of that UNLESS a homunculus with independent >ability to interpret visual information is to view it. If this is the >case, we (the entire human) are the homunculus and the geometry is 'out=20 >there'. Now what happens?? Another round of breaking down and rebuilding? Silly, from your point of view, perhaps, but perfectly logical and consiste= nt=20 with scientific reality from the point of view of image information transfe= r=20 through a long chain of field transformations, breakdowns and=20 reconstruction's -- until the image is finally experienced in all its reali= ty=20 by an individual observer. But, then, what makes you think that we expect = to=20 find "a little world inside the brain that geometrically mirrors the world= =20 outside." I don't think any of us electromagnetic field theorists or=20 holographic geometricians have even implied that... Since most of our=20 theories are concerned with the image information in the brain's holistic e= m=20 field -- which are outside of the brain's neurology... (And in my case,=20 include the higher order consciousness fields which are not even in the sam= e=20 spatial order as the brain or its em field)=20=20=20 As for the homunculus, since my claim is that it is the coadunate zero-poin= t=20 centers of the enrire body/brain/mind/memory fields that do the viewing and= =20 interpreting, where could we expect to find such a singular "little man=20 inside." As you said, perhaps we are (the entire human) the homunculus, an= d=20 the geometry is out there (as well as reconstructed "in here"). Don't we go= =20 through that breaking down and rebuilding, every time we see or sense anoth= er=20 image in our mind? Doesn't the process extending from the broken down dot= =20 matrix retinal image to the reassembled brain field hologram (and beyond, t= o=20 the mind/memory fields) also do just that? Must we trace every sensation -= -=20 from impression, through processing and transmission, to reception -- in=20 order to prove that all the senses work the same way and follow the same=20 principles?=20=20 Is there any better way to explain the reversible dynamic processes that=20 allow both awareness and will to travel up and down the same pathways,=20 and ties together all our sensory cortexes with the kinesthetic cortex that= =20 controls all our actions within the 3-dimensional geometry's of both the=20 outer objective and inner subjective worlds (that we directly experience as= =20 if they were one, and as if we were one with them)? Where else could our=20 "unity in diversity" stem from -- other than the ubiquitous and coadunate=20 zero-point within its surrounding spun out and involved spinergy fields = =20 (which can take infinitely diverse active forms without losing their=20 interconnections through their static zero-point centers or tangent=20 circumferences)? Best wishes, Leon Maurer >Kind Regards, >Robert Karl Stonjek. From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Nov 02 07:35:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 15:35:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 5969 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 15:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 15:35:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 15:35:01 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-03-25.look.ca ([216.154.45.120] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 1880Ic-0007tN-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 02 Nov 2002 10:34:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3DC3F0B3.88F88F47@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 10:35:15 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Leon's "absolutely". . . Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn I wonder if Leon ever gets stumped much, or if he's "absolutely" pretty much all the time . . . Speculatively, Mauri From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 02 07:38:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 15:38:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 49534 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 15:38:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 15:38:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 15:38:49 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.176] by n19.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2002 15:38:45 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 15:38:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Racist "Mahatma Letter"... Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002b01c281d6$09e6cba0$2a91a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4284 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach And since all the other letters to Sinnet have been stated by=20 Graphologist Harrison to in the same handwriting, so must conclusivly=20 they all be concocted fakes, I agree. Bri= =3D=0D an --- In theos-talk@y..., "Morten Nymann Olesen" wrote: > Hi all of you, >=20 > The letter frequently referred to by Brian (not to confuse=20 with "Brain"...>:-) a friendly joke ...) seems to be found at: > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm > It dates the year 1882. >=20 > I have one important question to Caldwell and others. Do you know=20 what the exact year was when this letter first was made public - for=20 real ? >=20 > I claim this (i.e. not being 100% certain using the ESP): > This letter is NOT a Mahatma Letter in its original form, i.e. the form i= =3D=0D t=20 was presented to A. P. Sinnett. > Someone - NOT a Master changed it or did rewrite the letter - and a=20 someone has even released it to official view. > (I.e. time as such has sort of changed the letters content of=20 information.) > A view we experience today on the Internet via the above link. >=20 > Prove me wrong if you can ! > Let us remember, that the Dugpas(i.e. Fake spiritualists) also can play=20 with the magic fire. >=20 > Bacause the letter has been made official in the version it has with its = =3D=0D - "careless" - remarks on races and sub-races, and because of later=20 historical events - especially Hitlers Swastika and his and his friends=20 deeds of evil - and their racist MASTERACE ("=DCbermensch") theories,=20 > and because of the present Thesophical groups use of the Swastika,=20 > and because of a greater groups of theosophists being the followers=20 of either C.W. Leadebeaters - clearly fake 6th subrace version in his=20 book - "Man Whence how and Whither" - (not to mention A. Besants=20 involvment). > OR certain Alice A. Bailey groups ("westernized aryan anti-global- view ") interpretation of the wisdom-tachings --- > then --- > true Theosophy - and the Ancient Wisdom Teachings of all ages have=20 a problem today defending such a letter without being called racists or=20 the like. >=20 > My knowledge about the masters make me seek to defend them here. > A true MASTER would have (to a certain degree a least) forseen=20 these - racist - tendencies, issues and historical events AND secured -=20 either - that the letter wasn't made public - so no misunderstandings=20 would have ar(a)isen (I think Caldwell is right here RE-read the whole=20 letter - using a spiritual sense of mind. But when read dead-letter - you=20 get trouble.) - or the Master would have known that the letter would be=20 made into a forgery - and then rested in peace ! > Or... >=20 > My view is, this: The reason why H.P. Blavatsky didn't interfer on this=20 letter being a fake was, that karma, time and circumstances didn't allow=20 this to happen. >=20 > The whole idea about the Mahatma letters was this :=20 > The students of Theosophy should not believe - blindly - everything -=20 everyone says about the Mahatmas and what is said, that They write in=20 letters and What they do and What they say !!! > And that is the truth and nothing but the truth so God - ParaBrahman=20 help you all. >=20 > Ponder on this: Has any magician ever changed ANY of the Mahatma=20 letters after they was read the first time ? Has any Master changed one=20 of them later on in time and space ? Did he/she (or "it" or they) change=20 the paper or the ink ? > Do we then REALLY know if they are REAL ? > My view is NO, not unlees we are recognized Chelas ! >=20 > And please do use the '7 keys' which Blavatsky refers to, - if you can - = =3D=0D while reading my letter(s). >=20 > All this talk about races. > And Martin Luther King Jr. who wanted us all to transcend our race,=20 tribe, spiritual -and national narrowmindedness. > When will this happen ? >=20 >=20 > (PS.: Thanks to Master Morya for standing by my side...well I=20 guess..>:-)) No spiritual 'Panama' channels here or perfumes - but just=20 a joke.) >=20 > Take care ! This email could be a (spiritual) decoy... > Feel free to do your very best. >=20 > from > M. Sufilight with patience...=20 > and a brand new Mahatma Letter year 2002, date 1st november, hour=20 GMT18:39... > and laughs... >=20 >=20 > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sat Nov 02 07:45:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 16603 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.79) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 15:45:19 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Mahatma Letters. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1171 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.214.6 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Steve:"Your point was why you should prove it, not whether or not there is anyy evidence." Brian: No that was not my point, you are misrepresenting my post. And you are offering no concrete facts to back up your stated assumption. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., "Steve Stubbs" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > > Brian: It would be nice in that case to see valid evidence letters > are > > what they say they are. And what constitute valid evidence does not > > depends on me. At the moment there no evidence, it only depends on > if > > you want to believe it or not. > > Your point was why you should prove it, not whether or not there is > anyy evidence. > > > > > Brian: Can you show us any authentic document of the Kargyu lineage > > that states as its teacheings that "The highest race > > The questionhere is whether "white" applied to a society in India or > Tibet has anything to do with white skin. As for an authentic > document from that source, you may have just quoted one. From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Nov 02 09:52:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 17:52:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 69866 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 17:52:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 17:52:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.92) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 17:52:15 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.160] by n8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Nov 2002 17:52:15 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 17:52:14 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: The Racist "Mahatma Letter" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002b01c281d6$09e6cba0$2a91a483@opasia.dk> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4678 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "Daniel H. Caldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Dear Morten Nymann Olesen, I am responding to your email posted at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/8375 You write: "Someone - NOT a Master changed it or did rewrite the letter [ML 23b] . . . ." This view is not really that unique. I have a whole file of letters and emails from various Theosophical students over the years who have proposed similar explanations about other Mahatma letters. But this is the first time I have heard anyone question this particular letter ( http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-23b.htm ). For example, some readers and students have suggested that some of the teachings about life after death as found in Koot Hoomi's letters could NOT have originated with the real Master. They suggest that HPB or some chela or even some dugpa must have added their two cents worth and therefore distorted the REAL teaching of the Master about various aspects of life after death. Or take Letter # 10 http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-10.htm A number of students of the MLs believe that much of what is in this letter does not orginate with the real Master KH. HPB or somebody else must have distorted the message in the letter. The same for ML #134 where we find a message from M: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-134.htm Or several Theosophical students who don't believe in reincarnation therefore have questioned the teaching of reincarnation as found in the MLs. I could cite other examples. In each and every case including yours too --- these students are apparently assuming they know what the real teaching is all about or that they have a better conception of what a real Master would write or not write. Therefore they conclude that because this or that Mahatma Letter does not live up to their "standard" therefore there must be something wrong with the letter. Of course this is possible but when reviewing ALL of the various objections one might conclude that there is hardly a theosophical teaching found in the Mahatma Letters that some student does not dispute. Therefore, should we conclude that all the letters are "faked" or "distorted"? Morten, you view ML 23-b as somehow "faked" but do you accept ML #10 or #134? You may think these two letters are genuine but there are students who disagree. Who is right? Concerning ML23-b, you write that it contains " 'careless' - remarks on races and sub-races." But are the remarks actually careless? I don't find the remarks to be "careless" when you view them in the context of all of the theosophical teachings. Again, you write: "A true MASTER would have (to a certain degree a least) forseen these - racist - tendencies, issues and historical events AND secured - either - that the letter wasn't made public - so no misunderstandings would have ar(a)isen . . . . - or the Master would have known that the letter would be made into a forgery - and then rested in peace !" But the point Morten is: is your assumption really true? You are entitled to entertain this opinion but is your assumption the only valid one? Master KH never claimed to be all-knowing or infallible. He says this more than once in the MLs. Yet you are assuming he should have looked into the future, saw..., etc. etc. You also write: "The reason why H.P. Blavatsky didn't interfer on this letter being a fake was, that karma, time and circumstances didn't allow this to happen." Okay, I guess this is one possibility if you make and accept 3 or 4 related assumptions. But HPB's writings on races seem to contain very SIMILAR ideas to what KH writes in ML-23b. Following your previous reasoning, could not one speculate that HPB's writings have been tampered with? Or somehow faked? Morten, you also mention Mr. Leadbeater: ". . . C.W. Leadebeaters - clearly fake 6th subrace version in his book - 'Man Whence how and Whither' " I am somewhat surprised by your use of the words: CLEARLY FAKE. What happened to your admonitions to use the "the '7 keys'" and use "a spiritual sense of mind"? If Nicholas Weeks wrote something like that about Alice Bailey, I can imagine you would write a few emails protesting his "literalness". But you seem to have no problem labelling something Leadbeater wrote as CLEARLY FAKE. Strange..... Then back to your question: "Do you know what the exact year was when this letter first was made public - for real ?" But if this question was answered, could this in anyway change your mind that Mahatma Letter #23b was faked? Would knowing the exact year in anyway confirm or falsify your assumption about this letter? Daniel From mhart@idirect.ca Sat Nov 02 09:56:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 17:56:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 69578 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 17:56:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 17:56:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2002 17:56:54 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-07-35.look.ca ([216.154.46.82] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 1882Vv-0001jb-00; Sat, 02 Nov 2002 12:56:51 -0500 Message-ID: <3DC411FA.631F32EE@idirect.ca> Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 12:57:14 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re absolutism and nihilism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Hey, Leon, Gerald wrote: <> Any comments about that Leon? From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Nov 02 10:11:26 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_1); 2 Nov 2002 18:11:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 27097 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2002 18:11:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2002 18:11:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by m