From john@serion.co.nz Tue Oct 01 00:03:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: john@serion.co.nz X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 1 Oct 2002 07:03:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 93443 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2002 07:03:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2002 07:03:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO serion.co.nz) (203.96.25.24) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2002 07:03:52 -0000 Received: from merlin (fohat.theosophy.org.nz [202.154.129.236]) by serion.co.nz (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g9173it26438 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:03:44 +1200 Message-ID: <00a101c26918$9d679ca0$3500a8c0@merlin> To: References: <003501c268b3$3e7fe900$5bd30b3f@idapingala> Subject: Re: Theos-World Fw: J. Krishnamurti dissolving the Order of the Star of the East.htm Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:03:07 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean From: "John Vorstermans" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=61554347 X-Yahoo-Profile: jvorstermans Hi Wry. It looks to me like you are getting caught out in precisley the issues K brought to our attention by simply following his words rather than the intent behind them. I have found K a very interesting person, one with a very keen insight yet what he tried to do most of all is to get people to "walk their own journey" themselves rather than rely on any teaching or ideal. To hang too heavily on his words is to simply fall into the same trap. Certainly we can read books, study philosophies of different schools of thought (one of the things that is done in the T.S.) but in the end we all have to recognise that none of this makes any difference if we do not follow what we do believe to be the right journey for ourselves and stand up in our own truth. We do not need to convince anyone else of what is right and wrong but rather live it for ourselves. This is the hardest thing in the world to do and K is not the only one who tried to give out this message. By point a finger at this or that and making judgement we are simply fooling ourselves. Our est teacher is life itself. Observe how we react within it and how we relate to those around us. Walk the talk. John From wry1111@earthlink.net Tue Oct 01 13:12:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 1 Oct 2002 20:12:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 3178 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2002 20:12:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2002 20:12:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2002 20:12:44 -0000 Received: from 1cust156.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.156] helo=idapingala) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17wTNq-00000T-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 01 Oct 2002 13:12:42 -0700 Message-ID: <003a01c26985$64bbeec0$9cd30b3f@idapingala> To: References: <003501c268b3$3e7fe900$5bd30b3f@idapingala> <00a101c26918$9d679ca0$3500a8c0@merlin> Subject: Re: Theos-World Fw: J. Krishnamurti dissolving the Order of the Star of the East.htm Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:01:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-eGroups-From: "wry" From: "wry" Reply-To: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 Hi John. I do not know if you read my whole message or not. I suggest you try to go back, if you have the time, and read it again. As I have said, Krishnamurti was no authority, nor am I. but any honest study of Krishamurti's writings will lead you to a different conclusion than the one you have come to about what Krishnamurti was saying. He was not speaking of an individual following a path of ACCUMULATION based on his own subjective preference, like a donkey, with the DESIRE of his own spiritual craving hung in front of his nose like a corn. His whole teaching was to DROP this accumulation, this chronological line of development, to DIE to it here and now, as to continue it creates what he called "psychological time" which is based on thought, memory and desire and leads to great suffering and disorder. This is his teaching. He is not talking about dying to the past tomorrow. He is talking about doing it NOW. He also has given a method for doing this and that method is by being completely attentive to what is, including oneself as one is interacting while being (or attempting to be) attentive. He used the method of dialogue (enquiry), which is approaching material through questions rather than answers. As one is attentive to the world and oneself in one's daily activity and attentive to oneself in the process of enquiry, a more exact alignment to physical reality occurs as false (unnecessary) reference points are shed, and " the observer becomes one with the observed." This is not a process of accumulation, but one of elimination. And hey, guess what? Most people are not Krishnamurti, who in some ways was not your ordinary spiritual seeker, and most people are unable to accomplish what he was talking about, a total dying to each moment that results in a complete transformation of the human brain. Or, actually, I should say, most people UP TILL NOW have been unable to accomplish this, because this is a different time, and it is possible that, in his case, his teaching may become MORE rather than less time-appropriate as it ages. This is the first time this has ever occurred to me, just now, as I wrote this last sentence. Wry took a big leap. Did you ever have a new idea when you were writing an email, AS you were writing? And hey, guess what else? I don't even agree with what KRISHNAMURTI was saying. Actually I both DO and DON'T. This is the truth and the contradiction. I feel it in both my solar plexus and in my gu t. One thing I do know, though, is that (up till now, at least), the average human being, and this probably includes all of us, cannot and will not drop his individual search (continuum of spiritual pursuit based on the desire to accumulate.) This is a fact. F-A-C-T. FACE IT AND FEEL SORROW AS DO I, but do not trick yourself. Krishnamurti's teaching was that the total CONTENT of the past is in oneself at the present moment. Therefore, all I need to do is study myself interacting with the world NOW. This is "life." But when he says something to the effect that "life" is the path, he is talking about life without the schism between the observer and the observed that is created by thought looking back (analysis). Analysis takes place from a place that is dirty. Interesting, though, that the teaching of Shri Aurobindo, Madame Blavatasky, and perhaps even Christianity, and many others, maybe even Krishnamurti (if we're talking about actual physical earth) is that there is a little seed in the dirt. If such be the case, even if we are speaking of simple physical earth, we need to first prepare the field. If weeds are enough, there will be no good food. If you and I believe that following our own subjective and mechanical paths based on our individual conditioning will lead to truth, than we will not get through the winter. Krishamurti went on, after he dissolved the Order of the Star and spent a lifetime showing people how to prepare the field for the creative act of being fully human. To get to conscious doing is very big. It is too big for me. This is why I suggest we start with simple questions. Why are we not able to let go of the past, or as Krishnamurti said, when he summed up his teaching in a single sentence, "Attempt without effort to live with death in futureless silence"? Death is painless. It does not hurt, because it is nothing. It is obvious that this is an immediate end to all conflict. Why are we not able to live with death? Is there a way we can help each other do so? Is trying to do this in conflict with the basic principles of theosophy or will it lead to the accomplishment and realization of the aims and goals of theosophy? Also, though I'm not against discussing Krishnamurti here, and already have planned to make some messages sometime regarding A Sanat, if you want to join a good Krishnamurti list, I suggest Katinka's list, K-and-C on yahoo. I am happily on that list, though I have not been as involved recently. Sincerely, Wry. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vorstermans" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:03 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Fw: J. Krishnamurti dissolving the Order of the Star of the East.htm > Hi Wry. > > It looks to me like you are getting caught out in precisley the issues K > brought to our attention by simply following his words rather than the > intent behind them. > > I have found K a very interesting person, one with a very keen insight yet > what he tried to do most of all is to get people to "walk their own journey" > themselves rather than rely on any teaching or ideal. > > To hang too heavily on his words is to simply fall into the same trap. > Certainly we can read books, study philosophies of different schools of > thought (one of the things that is done in the T.S.) but in the end we all > have to recognise that none of this makes any difference if we do not follow > what we do believe to be the right journey for ourselves and stand up in our > own truth. We do not need to convince anyone else of what is right and > wrong but rather live it for ourselves. This is the hardest thing in the > world to do and K is not the only one who tried to give out this message. > > By point a finger at this or that and making judgement we are simply fooling > ourselves. Our est teacher is life itself. Observe how we react within it > and how we relate to those around us. > > Walk the talk. > > John > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From micforster@yahoo.com Tue Oct 01 18:59:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 01:59:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 77174 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 01:59:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 01:59:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13403.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.61) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 01:59:43 -0000 Message-ID: <20021002015943.13435.qmail@web13403.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [137.111.13.33] by web13403.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 01 Oct 2002 18:59:43 PDT Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: quantum hologram To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <003a01c26985$64bbeec0$9cd30b3f@idapingala> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Can anyone out there not tell me the similarities between the quantum hologram and concepts raised by theosophy? I've gone full circle now and I'm beginning to spiral into something. And I can tell you this: everything around me is looking more alive than ever..... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From micforster@yahoo.com Tue Oct 01 19:19:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 02:19:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 88655 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 02:19:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 02:19:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13406.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.64) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 02:19:52 -0000 Message-ID: <20021002021952.46102.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [137.111.13.33] by web13406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 01 Oct 2002 19:19:52 PDT Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World waves and periods To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster Alright, now to bring it all together and weed out any ambiguities. So we have light which when studied as a particle behaves as a particle and when studied as a wave behaves as a wave. (I should here mention that I have no education in physics, just ecology/biology, so excuse any ignorance that arises.) This is quantum physics particle/wave duality. Now in ecology I have seen many many papers which have shown graphs that clearly represent waves. The classic predator/prey cycles that you mave have come across is an excellent example. Apart from a side mention by the author of terms relating to waves as far as I know no ecologists has ever said that what we are looking at is another example of the particle/wave duality. Perhaps because, until recently, such a duality was only thought to exist on a subatomic level. Is all this making sense so far? Here is where I have becomed muddled. When we talk about the particle/wave duality does this duality exist on any level and in regards to any phenomenon that we want it to exist with? What I am trying to get at is this: when we see data that gives a graph like the classic predator/prey cycle can we say that at once it is both a particle and a wave? Or, another example: when we see fluctuations in the stock market can we say that it is at once both a particle and a wave? Thank you for your help anyone that responds to this. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From mhart@idirect.ca Tue Oct 01 19:58:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 02:58:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 93581 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 02:58:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 02:58:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jandor.look.ca) (207.136.80.126) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 02:58:59 -0000 Received: from on-osh-ap3-02-19.look.ca ([216.154.45.66] helo=idirect.ca) by jandor.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17wZix-0000nq-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 01 Oct 2002 22:58:55 -0400 Message-ID: <3D9A62C7.DB131E32@idirect.ca> Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 23:06:47 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: re Taylor's Article/Talk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn Congratulations re Richard Taylor's talk/article, as transcribed in Theosophy World emagazine. That about the one or two d's in that context I didn't know about. Interesting. Quoting from Theosophy World #76, Oct 1, 2002, by Richard Taylor: <> Mauri PS I think was going to say something else, but after reading all those short short sentences (there must've been hundreds and hundreds of them in that transcript) my brain seems to have gone out of kilter, or something, so seems I'll have to take some time off to recuperate. :-) From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Tue Oct 01 20:01:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 03:01:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 23627 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 03:01:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 03:01:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.64) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 03:01:25 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.129] by n1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2002 03:01:25 -0000 Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 03:01:23 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Krishnamurti; Theosophy and Reincarnation. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 579 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 203.146.138.198 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach "Reincarnation, and the modern people who believe in it say there is a permanent ego. You take many lives so that it can become dissolved and be absorbed in Brahma and all that. Now, is there from the beginning a permanent entity, an entity that lasts centuries and centuries? There is no such permanent entity, obviously. I like to think I'm permanent. My permanence is identified with my furniture, my wife, my husband, circumstances. These are words and images of thought. I don't actually possess that chair. I call it mine." (Krishnamurti, The Reluctant Messiah) From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Oct 01 20:22:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 03:22:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 21530 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 03:22:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 03:22:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 03:22:46 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-092-144.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.92.144] helo=sprynet.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17wa61-0002WH-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 01 Oct 2002 20:22:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3D9A6697.FA4F4125@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 23:23:03 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti; Theosophy and Reincarnation. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 brianmuehlbach wrote: > > "Reincarnation, and the modern people who believe in it say there is a > permanent ego. Theosophists don't. Bart Lidofsky From wayoutwesley@yahoo.com Tue Oct 01 20:23:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wayoutwesley@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 03:23:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 24214 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 03:23:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 03:23:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 03:23:46 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.156] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2002 03:23:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 03:23:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The reincarnation of H.P.B. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 636 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "WayOutWesley" X-Originating-IP: 216.61.218.81 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66361653 X-Yahoo-Profile: WayOutWesley Hi all, I'm new here. Does anyone know of anyone claiming to be the reincarnation of H.P.Blavatsky? What are the theories on this? Is she to come back soon, or has she escaped to freedom? The reason I ask this is because of someone I've met who claims to be the reincarnation of H.P.Blavatsky. She has her own yahoo group, here. http://tinyurl.com/1qo9 I don't want to hurt this persons feelings, or cause them further injury by crushing their delusions....but I do think its something that should be addressed. If she is H.P.B. (which I feel is highly unlikely) then maybe somebody should know about it. sincerely, Wes From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Oct 01 21:34:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 04:34:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 38590 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 04:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 04:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 04:34:15 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.b4.12add764 (4418) for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 00:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 00:34:03 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World quantum hologram To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 http://angelicinfusion.com/Web%20Sunday%20School/Quantumhologram.htm This message is identical with the message of theosophy... And, (gathered from from the teachings)... <> Hope this helps -- and livens things up even further :-) LHM In a message dated 10/01/02 10:01:41 PM, micforster@yahoo.com writes: >Can anyone out there not tell me the similarities >between the quantum hologram and concepts raised by >theosophy? > >I've gone full circle now and I'm beginning to spiral >into something. And I can tell you this: everything >around me is looking more alive than ever..... From leonmaurer@aol.com Tue Oct 01 22:40:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 05:40:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 56808 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 05:40:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 05:40:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 05:40:41 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.15b.1524372e (3310) for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 01:40:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <15b.1524372e.2acbe0d2@aol.com> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 01:40:34 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World waves and periods To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 10/01/02 10:20:00 PM, micforster@yahoo.com writes: >Here is where I have becomed muddled. When we talk >about the particle/wave duality does this duality >exist on any level and in regards to any phenomenon >that we want it to exist with? What I am trying to get >at is this: when we see data that gives a graph like >the classic predator/prey cycle can we say that at >once it is both a particle and a wave? Or, another >example: when we see fluctuations in the stock market >can we say that it is at once both a particle and a >wave? No. "Particle/wave duality" refers solely to fundamental "energy packets" at the quantum level (ref: Einstein's theory of photoelectricity) and has nothing to do with cyclic graphs that refer to intangible processes or phenomenal changes on the Macro scale. e.g.; Each triple cycle primary wave front of light contains a particular amount of energy. When this energy packet strikes a semiconducting photoelectric surface, it acts like a particle/mass and causes the electron it hits to change its state from one energy level to another, thus knocking it off its atom and causing an electrical current to flow through the semiconductor. Although, we could say that a cycle or wave of a stock market fluctuation, does have an "impact" on people's pocketbooks -- and therefore, while flowing like a wave, it "acts like" a particle... (So, a 90 percent drop in the price of a stock could certainly knock over a big corporation or its stockholders. :-) But then, that sort of cyclic change is not analogous to, or corresponds with a cyclic quantum wave -- such as the fixed frequencies of the light energy spectrum. To compare one with the other is like comparing apples to oranges, and is a categorical error. LHM From micforster@yahoo.com Tue Oct 01 23:24:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 06:24:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 60520 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 06:24:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 06:24:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13408.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.66) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 06:24:06 -0000 Message-ID: <20021002062406.90463.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.94.6.29] by web13408.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 01 Oct 2002 23:24:06 PDT Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 23:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World waves and periods To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <15b.1524372e.2acbe0d2@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster --- leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > > > > Although, we could say that a cycle or wave of a > stock market fluctuation, > does have an "impact" on people's pocketbooks -- and > therefore, while flowing > like a wave, it "acts like" a particle... (So, a 90 > percent drop in the price > of a stock could certainly knock over a big > corporation or its stockholders. > :-) But then, that sort of cyclic change is not > analogous to, or corresponds > with a cyclic quantum wave -- such as the fixed > frequencies of the light > energy spectrum. To compare one with the other is > like comparing apples to > oranges, and is a categorical error. > > LHM > So when is a wave not a wave? I accept that it is not entirely correct to call fluctuations in a stock market a wave, well a quantum wave, but does it not have all the other properties of a wave? That is, a disturbance propegated through a medium; something that carries energy etc etc.... mic __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From leonmaurer@aol.com Wed Oct 02 01:38:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 2 Oct 2002 08:38:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 767 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2002 08:38:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2002 08:38:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r02.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.98) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Oct 2002 08:38:42 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.11d.17f98e94 (30950) for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 04:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <11d.17f98e94.2acc0a8b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 04:38:35 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World waves and periods To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 10/02/02 2:25:22 AM, micforster@yahoo.com writes: >--- leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: >> >> > >> Although, we could say that a cycle or wave of a >> stock market fluctuation, >> does have an "impact" on people's pocketbooks -- and >> therefore, while flowing >> like a wave, it "acts like" a particle... (So, a 90 >> percent drop in the price >> of a stock could certainly knock over a big >> corporation or its stockholders. >> :-) But then, that sort of cyclic change is not >> analogous to, or corresponds >> with a cyclic quantum wave -- such as the fixed >> frequencies of the light >> energy spectrum. To compare one with the other is >> like comparing apples to >> oranges, and is a categorical error. >> >> LHM >> > >So when is a wave not a wave? I accept that it is not >entirely correct to call fluctuations in a stock >market a wave, well a quantum wave, but does it not >have all the other properties of a wave? That is, a >disturbance propegated through a medium; something >that carries energy etc etc.... >mic A quantum wave and a statistical wave are two different things. One is a direct attribute of primal energy. The other is not. Cyclic diagrams or numbers based on statistical changes in market values have nothing to do with the properties of mass/energy or particle/waves. Money, as a "medium" of exchange has nothing to do with the "aether" of space as the "medium" of light propagation. Are you trying to conflate the intangible, and variably jagged waves of stock market fluctuations with the tangible (energetic) and fixed sinusoidal waves of light rays or ocean water? If so, you're stretching science, and even metaphysics, a bit too far... And, by such category errors you might find yourself in a real tailspin when trying to understand the true nature of reality... Particularly, the nature of consciousness, which theosophical metaphysics is mainly concerned with... Since, that's the only aspect of reality that scientific, particle/wave, or objective/reductive thinking can't quite get a handle on. (Although, they've got the physical end of reality, from the quantum particle on out, pretty much in control -- vide; computers, DVD's, cell phones, etc...) Problem is, they can't see how the fundamental cycles of energy lead us to the higher or inner enfolded dimensions of space (or "planes of consciousness" as theosophy would say) which is in the "empty," zero-point space between the particles. These inner fields certainly have waves, but do they have "particles"? If so, what's a "quanta" of consciousness? (Quanta means; "The smallest amount of a physical quantity that can exist independently, especially a discrete quantity of electromagnetic radiation.") A photon of physical light is a quanta. But, is a *photon* of astral light (or astromagnetic radiation that we see with our inner awareness) also a "quanta"? If so, how do we measure its frequency, energy or "discrete quantity"? Note: (*---*) I would rather call a quanta of astral light an "astron" (although it still has photographic characteristics on it own plane of consciousness). LHM From wry1111@earthlink.net Wed Oct 02 17:44:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wry1111@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 00:44:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 26526 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 00:44:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 00:44:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 00:44:25 -0000 Received: from 1cust39.tnt16.sfo8.da.uu.net ([63.11.211.39] helo=idapingala) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17wu6J-0005ME-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 02 Oct 2002 17:44:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01c26a74$8241dbe0$27d30b3f@idapingala> To: References: <20021002021952.46102.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World waves and periods Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:33:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-eGroups-From: "wry" From: "wry" Reply-To: "wry" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=117031072 X-Yahoo-Profile: wry1111 HI MIc. It is good to see someone pondering scientific material in a way that is creative and trying to find correlations and applications to the larger world as one knows it and to oneself in ones daily life. I am untrained in science, but I used to be a science nut and for a few years I loved to ponder quantum concepts, especially new inventions and discoveries I read about in science magazines. What I tried to do was apply these principles to my own physical body in relationship to the larger universe. Sometimes there was an insight, sometimes not, but it was fun and interesting and helped me to think differently about subtle materials and their interactions. I was born with synesthia, and different qualities of very subtle refinements of material are physically recognizable to me. I sort of "see" them with an inner eye, but this seems to be a real measurement of very real material, not just imagination. One thing I have discovered is that everything refers back to an interaction between the physical body with its shape-organization and incoming materials of light, air and physical food, which enter the body and are there interchanged with other materials and transmuted. I have often thought about the subject of light, and I believe the organization of the human brain has evolved to reflect the way light manifests itself to us; in the right brain material is assimilated in crude whole bites ( waves ), and in the left brain, by chewing things up into little pieces ( points.) The thing I invariably miss when I try to understand this is myself as a MOVING object, because "I" am so lost in trying to figure this or anything out that there is nothing left to record or trace the movement of doing so. I believe that when a conscious tracing of ones own movement is complete and continuous, incoming material (impressions) is affected so that the brain naturally reorganizes points into sets or planes in such a way that material is not oversimplified (as it would be when taken in as a crude bite that misses subtleties or into a stereotype and subsequent reaction, for example, that is perhaps triggered at a "point" where adrenaline is released, but can be handled and rearranged in large blocks or sets, which contributes to a wave like state in which the brain works differently. This probably has something to do with the pineal gland and also the use of areas of the brain that are usually inaccessible. When I am not fully conscious, but am trying to look back and analyze material, there is not enough energy left over to record the shifts between modes. Maybe doing this would be what Krishnamurti referred to as living with death in futureless silence. I believe that when the shifts are consciously recorded, the brain becomes more intelligent, as it can reorganize itself and integrate material in a mode that was previously unavailable. Perhaps this is akin to masonry or entering a fourth dimension. Sincerely, Wry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mic Forster" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 7:19 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World waves and periods > Alright, now to bring it all together and weed out any > ambiguities. > > So we have light which when studied as a particle > behaves as a particle and when studied as a wave > behaves as a wave. (I should here mention that I have > no education in physics, just ecology/biology, so > excuse any ignorance that arises.) This is quantum > physics particle/wave duality. Now in ecology I have > seen many many papers which have shown graphs that > clearly represent waves. The classic predator/prey > cycles that you mave have come across is an excellent > example. Apart from a side mention by the author of > terms relating to waves as far as I know no ecologists > has ever said that what we are looking at is another > example of the particle/wave duality. Perhaps because, > until recently, such a duality was only thought to > exist on a subatomic level. Is all this making sense > so far? > > Here is where I have becomed muddled. When we talk > about the particle/wave duality does this duality > exist on any level and in regards to any phenomenon > that we want it to exist with? What I am trying to get > at is this: when we see data that gives a graph like > the classic predator/prey cycle can we say that at > once it is both a particle and a wave? Or, another > example: when we see fluctuations in the stock market > can we say that it is at once both a particle and a > wave? > > Thank you for your help anyone that responds to this. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From micforster@yahoo.com Wed Oct 02 18:42:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 01:42:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 10988 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 01:42:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 01:42:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13407.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.65) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 01:42:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20021003014211.21121.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.94.6.29] by web13407.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 02 Oct 2002 18:42:11 PDT Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World waves and periods To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <11d.17f98e94.2acc0a8b@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster --- leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: "Are you trying to conflate the intangible, and variably jagged waves of stock market fluctuations with the tangible (energetic) and fixed sinusoidal waves of light rays or ocean water? If so, you're stretching science, and even metaphysics, a bit too far... And, by such category errors you might find yourself in a real tailspin when trying to understand the true nature of reality..." I think a tailspin is an understatement. I'm off to have a beer.... __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com From samblo@cs.com Wed Oct 02 20:44:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 03:44:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 49896 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 03:44:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 03:44:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d10.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.42) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 03:44:19 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.38.2efa7487 (4402) for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2002 23:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38.2efa7487.2acd170c@cs.com> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 23:44:12 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World waves and periods To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Drink Red Baron Lager ? Lol! (tailspin) John From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Wed Oct 02 22:41:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 05:41:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 59428 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 05:41:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 05:41:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.93) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 05:41:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.140] by n9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2002 05:41:29 -0000 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 05:41:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Temple of the Quest. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002a01c267e0$df23dd40$a3d30b3f@idapingala> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 5245 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 203.146.88.161 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Wry: What I personally might do is examine Theosophy to see what, if anything about it, is flawed. Brian: Blavatsky's construct (largely rooted in "The Great Chain of Being" philosophy of the Renaissance) remains important to read because it reveals how occultists of the 19th century where adjusting themselves to the changing times. At the time of Blavatsky's writings a rapid advance of a rational, scientific world-view was taking place. As during the Renaisance when for example alchemy and astrology were accepted sciences, the occult was not seen anymore as an integrative framework that explained the "hidden" ("true") meaning of the world. The cosmology in Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine not unlike earlier Hermetic, and kabalistic teachings, is interpreted as the involution from spirit to matter and the evolution from matter to spirit in which humans through their cycles of reincarnations participate. It is as a consequence of this evolutive hierarchization that we encounter the resulting teachings of race. The writings of Blavatsky remain under-researched especially by Theosophists who not unlike Bible sects, take the writings as some kind of revealed teachings from a worldwide White Brotherhood, Masters (who are said to have looked upon humanity from its "inception") and manuscripts from "Atlantis." Therefore the books written by TS members about the history of the TS, are more like propaganda material. The same with most of the responses one will see on theos-talk, they are mostly just polemic but avoid the real issues that are posted. Modern writers that have started to properly research Theosophy (a large job indeed) are Carlson who wrote a book on Theosophy in Russia (*) , K.Paul Johnson, even he stated that he has been more apologetic in his books then he would be today about Blavatsky. J.Godwin "The Theosophical Enlightenment" also his book "Arktos." And important, in spite of the title that appears non-Theosophical but the content is very much about Blavatsky, Olcott, and the early TS, Deveney's "P.B.Randolph." Plus of course Deveney's book on Astral travel and the TS published by "Theosophical History." Prothero wrote an interesting essay on the mid-90s spate of scholarly books about HPB in the Religious Studies Review. He semi-explicitly ranks them in order of scholarly value: 1) Carlson 2) Godwin 3) Johnson 4) Washington 5) Cranston. This is a Religious Studies Ph.D., a biographer whose work on Olcott hasn't been seriously challenged or criticized by anyone. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/index.html Brian (*) Carlson discovered and first published in her book the important letter from H.P..Blavatsky, where she writes : "And thus I must confess that three-quarters of the time the spirits spoke and answered in my words and out of my own considerations, for the success of my own plans. Rarely, very rarely, did I fail, by means of this little trap, to discover people`s hopes, plans and secrets."( Carlson, Maria, No Religion Higher Than Truth, p. 316.) --- In theos-talk@y..., "wry" wrote: A new "sixt sub-race" (not a "real race" as Theosophical apologetics in 2002 will argue), today still claimed by Theosophists to emerge in southern California/USA was also to have a new Messiah. Catherine Lowman Wessinger's "Annie Besant and Progressive Messianism" thesis is predicated upon the assumption that Krishnamurti is to be interpreted solely as a Theosophical messiah. The Coming of the Lord Maltreya through the vehicle of a time young boy, Krishnamurti (who as soon he became a young adult completely distanced himself from it) would mark the formal inauguration of the New Age, even it was soon to be followed by two world wars. As Krishnamurti's apostasy from Theosophy became announced replacement needed to urgently be found. This time the choice where, at once a whole group of Caucasian females. "The Seven Virgins of Java," as they were known, had been selected from prominent Theosophical families and were accorded singular occult status and given a uniform of blue robes. The girls were trained in various occult disciplines and were admitted to the ES, and, despite their youth, created 33 degree Co-Masons. The seven girls were: Paula Hamerster, Hilda van der Stok, Eleanora van der Stok, Lilie van Thiel, Marietje van Gulik, Leoni van Gulik, and Hannie Vreede. A new "Egyptian Rite" was designed, just as the failed Coming had been, to draw together the powerful occult forces generated. This Leadbeater, Bishops Wedgwood, Arundale, and Theosophic Society leaders believed, would gather up the various (hierarchical) angels. The rituals, were first performed by the Seven Virgins at the newly- inaugurated Temple on the Adyar (International T.S. Headquarters) compound, following the reestablishment of Blavatsky's Esoteric School in late 1929. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/index.html From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Thu Oct 03 00:26:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 07:26:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 59711 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 07:26:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 07:26:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.76) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 07:26:38 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.143] by n20.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2002 07:26:38 -0000 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 07:26:37 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theosophy and the invention of Reincarnation. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 14803 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 203.146.138.47 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Reincarnation is not a single, well defined doctrine, but a diffuse group of beliefs that hold the rebirth of some spiritual component within us, perhaps a "soul" (whatever this expression may mean), to be our=20 destiny after death. Beyond this minimum core of common doctrine,=20 there are vast differences of opinion. Do we always reincarnate as=20 humans, or can we return as other sentient beings? Do ancestral spirits reincarnate within their family groups? Is reincarnation linked to any concept of moral retribution? What is the precise nature of the=20 reincarnating entity? The fact that reincarnation in the Esoteric Tradition is designated by the same label as reincarnation doctrines of Oriental or other provenance should not obscure the fact that the=20 various beliefs display considerable differences. The belief in reincarnation prevalent in certain in Neoplatonism, was largely eclipsed during centuries of Christian hegemony, and reentered the Western history of ideas with the revival of interest in the kabbala. The transmigration of souls or gilgul became a major doctrinal element with the sixteenth century school of Isaac Luria (1534-1572).' Lunia's own doctrines were basically an esoteric teaching reserved for=20 the initiated, and were set down in writing by his disciples. Lurianic texts were translated from Hebrew into Latin by Christian Knorr von=20 Rosenroth as part of his Kabbala denudata, published in three volumes, the first two in 1677-78 and the last in 1684. Francois Mercure=20 van Helmont (1614-1699), believed that the doctrine of transmigration of=20 souls could be made the cornerstone of a universal Christianity: by this means, the souls of individuals who had lived in the wrong time and=20 place to have heard of the Gospel would have a chance of salvation. Van Helmont in turn influenced, Anne Conway who openly defended=20 transmigration. A more influential attempt to formulate a melioristic view of=20 reincarnation was undertaken by Gotthold Ephraim Lessing (1729-1781)=20 toward the end of his theological and philosophical essay Die Erziehung des Menschengeschlechtes, published in 1780.", Lessing sees=20 the history of mankind as a story of ever greater insight and perfection.=20 Earlier religions had merely been didactic instruments, preludes to a=20 truly humanitarian faith. Historically, Judaism and Christianity have been the two great educating influences on mankind. However, the next step=20 in the spiritual evolution of humanity would soon take place. This tripartite scheme of history resembles that of Joachim of Fiore and the=20 Joachimites, and Lessing implicitly credits them with the theory of three ages. Soon to have an influence also on Blavatsky. Belief in reincarnation soon took the leap from the pages of=20 Enlightenment philosophers to the seance rooms. Thus by 1790, a small=20 proto-spiritualist circle in Copenhagen led by the brother-in-law of the Danish king Christian VII, prince Karl of Hessen-Kassel, had been=20 instructed in a reincarnationist doctrine resembling that of Kant and=20 Lessing by a voice speaking from a white cloud. The wife of the Danish minister of foreign affairs, Auguste von Bernstorff, who was one=20 of the five members, was proclaimed to be an incarnation of Mary=20 Magdalene." It would take another six decades before the belief in=20 reincarnation spread from such small groups of occultists and=20 freethinkers to a somewhat larger audience of religious seekers. The=20 basic mechanism of belief-the intervention of spiritual entities-would=20 remain remarkably unchanged for another century. Jean-Baptiste Willermoz conducted sessions with a talented=20 somnambule, asking her questions to which, with the aid of the spirit=20 world, she was able to 'give authoritative answers which were recorded in detail. The first documented afterlife beliefs of the mesmerist= =3D=0D milieu are notes dating from 1785, which are infused with Christian mythology: the dead go to heaven, hell or purgatory; or alternatively,=20 their destiny will be decided on the day of judgment.=20 (N.Edelman"Voyantes, guerisseuses et visionnaires en France 1765- 1914", 1995, p. 23. ff) Kardec adopted the method introduced by Willermoz, Le livre des=20 esprit's was reprinted in numerous editions, other spiritists adopted his beliefs, and reincarnation became part of the canonical=20 doctrines of the French spiritist movement.=20 Two discursive strategies are central to Kardec's work. The first is the reliance on revealed truth. Kardec's book of more than 470 pages=20 does not refer to a single contemporary printed source or spokesperson.=20 At most, the reader that belief in reincarnation has existed since times=20 immemonal among the Pythagoreans, Hindus and Egyptians." The rhetorical strength behind this strategy is hardly in doubt: every last detail recorded in Le livre des esprits is directly taken from the dictation of the spirits. The form of the book reflects this method: it is basically a pastiche of Christian catechisms, with Kardec's questions= =3D=0D =20 followed by the spirits' answers in quotation marks. His position is an innovation compared with earlier speculations:=20 deceased spirits can never regress-, at worst, their progress towards=20 God is merely halted temporarily. In short, Kardec lets the spirits elevate a morally justified hope to the status of revealed truth. To strengthen his case, Kardec resorts to a second strategy, scientism. Already, the first mesmerist or somnambulist sessions were=20 conceived of as methods of empirically exploring invisible dimensions of=20 the cosmos. Spiritism uses the same rhetorical move to gain legitimacy.=20 Thus, Kardec repeatedly and explicitly refers to his method as a new=20 science. The bricolage of modern Theosophy. Several elements of what would become theosophical reincarnation=20 doctrine were already in place. The human soul reincarnates in order to progress spiritually. Incarnations take place not only on earth, but also on other planets. However ' the English channel was a formidable=20 barrier to the spread of Kardecist theories of reincarnation, which did not gain much influence in the Anglo-American world until around=20 1880. (Godwin "Theosophical Enlightenment") The first link to Theosophy was lady Caithness , she became the=20 recipient of a series of mediumistic revelations from sources as diverse as Mary Stuart and the archangel Gabriel. These messages=20 were set down in writing and, over a period of twenty years, grew into a series of books. The second link, Anna Kingsford, made the=20 acquaintance of lady Caithness while studying medicine in Paris. Kingsford, which in other English, was the creator of a religious=20 worldview clearly based on Kardec's and the other French spiritists'=20 melioristic bellifs. In her main work, The Perfect Way or the Finding of Christ, published in 1882, she explains in typically evolutionist language how the soul aspires to progress from plant to animal to=20 human, and finally to leav leave the physical body behind. Anna Kingsford herself claimed to have once lived as Mary Magdalene. In Kingsford's=20 view, physical existence is an evil to be overcome. Upon her return to London, Kingsford joined the British section of the Theosophical Society. A few British spiritualists had already adopted the doctrine of reincarnation. However, it appears that the=20 publication of The Perfect Way, which attracted a great deal of=20 attention, was crucial in achieving a critical mass for the controversial=20 doctrine.Coincidentally or not, theosophical writings began to mention=20 reincarnation as a spiritual truth for the first time around this same year= =3D=0D =20 1882. =20 Blavatsky had claimed that the transmigration of souls was "an=20 exception, a phenomenon as abnormal as a fetus with two heads"." As=20 noted above, around 1882, Blavatsky had changed her mind. Since both=20 the earlier and the later teachings were allegedly received from the=20 same group of ascended Masters, the discrepancy became quite=20 embarrassing. As recent as late 1876 Blavatsky had written in her=20 scrapbook: "Mind is the quintessence of the Soul-and having joined its divine Spirit Nous-can return no more to earth. IMPOSSIBLE." Also Olcott's letter of May 20, 1876, to M. A. Oxon gave testimony of this. On the Barones von Vay's wanting to join the Theosophical=20 Society: "If she wants to come in with us she can-but she must scrape off her Reincarnation shoes at the door; there's no room for that=20 in our Philosophy." Exegetical treatises followed Blavatsky's lead in adopting reincarnation.=20 In chapter 5 of Sinnett's Esoteric Buddhism, the author explains the=20 destiny of man after death. Of the seven components that make up our=20 persons, the three lower pass away at the moment of physical death. If earlier theories on life after death were largely based on privileged knowledge, in the Mahatma Letters, and even more in=20 Sinnett's book, the discursive strategies of science and tradition were=20 mobilized. The description of life after death increasingly rested on a number of=20 Sanskrit terms, which, just like the title of his book, define the positive Others. In a style that will later be typical of other major theosophical movement texts, these Orientalist references are=20 interspersed with appeals to contemporary science, including nineteenth=20 century pseudo-sciences such as mesmerism. Thus, from their existence=20 in Devachan, souls can appear to spiritualist mediums and magnetic=20 somnambules because the spirit of the sensitive getting odylized, so to=20 say, by the aura of the spirit in the Devachan, becomes for a few=20 minutes that departed personality, and writes in the handwriting of the=20 latter, in his language and in his thoughts as they were during his=20 lifetime. Thus what is called rapport, is, in plain fact, an identity of=20 molecular vibration between the astral part of the incarnate medium and=20 the astral part of the discarnate personality. (Sinnett "Esoteric=20 Buddhism", pp. 146 f.) The belief in reincarnation advanced from being a minority view to=20 becoming one of the core elements of the arguably most influential=20 esoteric movement of the late nineteenth century. A fundamental discursive strategy, legitimizing not only the belief in reincarnation but also the theosophical myth as a whole, is the=20 construction of tradition. The Secret Doctrine is allegedly based on an ancient manuscript, the Book of Dzyan.=20 Blavatsky claimed that this palm leaf manuscript from Atlantis contained the true core of all the great religions. Implicitly, reincarnati= =3D=0D on had passed in six years from being a controversial innovation to=20 becoming a central tenet of all the religious traditions of the world-or at= =3D=0D least of the esoteric aspect of each of these traditions=85. Blavatsky's reincarnation doctrine builds on elements deriving from=20 several different sources. Due to the inherent difficulties in harmonizing historically distinct traditions, her reincarnation doctrine is= =3D=0D =20 not free from contradictions. At times, she seems to draw on the=20 purported roots of the "ancient wisdom religion" in a generalized=20 Buddhism. Thus, Blavatsky can refer to "the great truth that=20 reincarnation is to be dreaded, as existence in this world only entails=20 upon man suffering, misery and pain". (SD I:39) Nevertheless, following a view that could be either Hindu or Platonic, but certainly not Buddhist in any orthodox sense, she claims that= =3D=0D there is a unique individuality that incarnates again and again. In a reminiscence of an earlier Western esoteric tradition, the individual is=20 said to reincarnate after a stay in the astral plane." Another echo of the = =3D=0D frequent esoteric preoccupation with the number seven, the individual is said to be composed of an aggregate of seven entities that part ways at physical death .4' A quote such as the following is closer to a Lurianic kabbalistic view than to the "Esoteric Buddhism" that Sinnett=20 wrote of: The Monad emerges from its state of spiritual and intellectual=20 unconsciousness; and gets directly into the plane of Mentality. But there is no place in the whole universe with a wider margin, or a wider field of action in its almost endless gradations of perceptive and apperceptive qualities, than this plane, which has in its turn an=20 appropriate smaller plane for every "form", from the "mineral" monad=20 up to the time when that monad blossoms forth by evolution into the=20 DIVINE MONAD. But all the time it is still one and the same Monad,=20 differing only in its incarnations, throughout its ever succeeding cycles o= =3D=0D f=20 partial or total obscuration of spirit, or the partial or total obscuration= =3D=0D of=20 matter-two polar antitheses-as it ascends into the realms of mental spirituality, or descends into the depths of materiality." (Secret Doctrine= =3D=0D =20 I:175) The construction of tradition, the bricolage from bits and pieces of such originally distinct historical sources, masks the novelty of Blavatsky's overall conception. Essentially, the theosophical view of the=20 transmigration of souls is not so much Oriental or Platonic, as a typically nineteenth century construction. Three key ideas run through Blavatsky's description of the chain of=20 rebirth. The first is the fact of Orientalism itself. The frequent references to India and the East rather than to e.g. Plotinus or=20 Paracelsus are in themselves a phenomenon of the post-Enlightenment=20 era.=20 The second is the placement of reincarnation within the arguably most=20 overarching meta-narrative of the nineteenth century: evolutionism.=20 The third element is the synthesis of these ideas with another meta- narrative of the nineteenth century: the view that humanity is divided into races and peoples with clearly definable properties. A closer look at the purported ancient wisdom religion shows it to be a mythologization of ideas characteristic of late nineteenth century Europe. http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9 = =20 = =3D=0D Brian =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 --- In theos-talk@y..., "brianmuehlbach" wrote: > "Reincarnation, and the modern people who believe in it say there is a=20 > permanent ego. You take many lives so that it can become dissolved=20 and=20 > be absorbed in Brahma and all that. Now, is there from the beginning=20 a=20 > permanent entity, an entity that lasts centuries and centuries? There=20 is=20 > no such permanent entity, obviously. I like to think I'm permanent. My=20 > permanence is identified with my furniture, my wife, my husband,=20 > circumstances. These are words and images of thought. I don't=20 actually=20 > possess that chair. I call it mine."=20 >=20 > (Krishnamurti, The Reluctant Messiah) From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Oct 03 05:11:10 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 12:11:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 17829 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 12:11:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 12:11:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 12:11:08 -0000 Received: from pool0050.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.50] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17x4or-0007M5-00; Thu, 03 Oct 2002 05:11:05 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Where are they now? Time will tell -- or not? Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 05:07:46 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 OCT 3 2002 Der Friends: Re: Time and the Mind -- Creativity and Art Taken in the scope of eternal duration any measure we might make of time is a definition which we can understand, and if made part of this incarnations education we assume others have adopted the same dimensions. Actually it is a part of the materialization of this age and range of perceptions. It is therefore related to fixing either memory (history) or anticipation (planning for a concrete aspect of the future). As to fantasy and daydreams, they indicate that we are conscious on other planes of perception than the merely objective: "that which is in front of us." It is one of the proofs that the human MIND and human THOUGHT are not mere figments of brain activity, motivated by chaotic desires. Another is the operation of the WILL. We desire and then employ WILL to achieve projections. This does not tell us what WILL is, only that it is a creative and a formative force which we have. So we use it without thinking of how or why we do so. One of its functions is to imprint IDEAS on our memory tablets, and, it can be employed to achieve results either in thought or in actions, and therefore it is a link or a translator of the thought process. First as considering many ideas and their possible results. Second of selecting that which seems best suited to our desire. Thirdly, it provides us with the necessary assembly of tools and materials, and especially of the creative tools so our IDEA can be translated into the material. There we may see looking about us at our present world and civilization, that it has gradually been concretized, and while many disparate results may be seen in technology, art, economics, protection of the environment, investigation of the past and current religions and philosophies, etc..., we may see these as individual works of art, music, poetry, a scientific report, the ruling of a nation, etc... the building of a dam or a roadway. Our whole civilization is seen to be the emergence of the force of general creativity along certain broad lines. If we are able to accurately review the past, we will see that the word of Plato (for instance) held a different set of customary values to be important as compared to ours. The imprinting force (will) determines the length of a handy memory -- easily reanimated. Others fade as time and disuse allows the to fade into a general background, sometimes difficult to reanimate. The teachings of Krishnamurthi are of great assistance if we realize how absolutely honest he was. He is an outstanding example of one who practiced this important and pivotal virtue. But if you read them carefully you will find that he was apparently not trained or taught in H P B's kind of Theosophical lore and information. Perhaps this is why he left the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY as it was no longer studying or practicing theosophy. Best wishes, Dallas ============================== -----Original Message----- From: Larry F Kolts [mailto:llkingston2@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:20 PM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: Where are they now? Time will tell -- or not? I've been thinking a lot about this today. How does this relate to one of the major themes of Krishnamurti such as his dialogues with David Bohm in THE ENDING OF TIME. He and others such as Scott Morrision and Eduard Tolle devote much effort into speaking of how we can live only in the present without the bagage of the past or the stressful anxieties of the future. It would seem to me Christina, that when we daydream while driving for instance, we are usually engaged in some fantasy that has nothing to do with the "now." If a deer were to jump in front of the car as they often do in these parts, we would instantly be very much in the "now." So while your example is good to show how we do lose track of time, or how relative time can be, it doesn't address living in the present moment. Does anyone see any real value in these teaching of K and the others on time? As Peter wrote, interesting how this discussion has progressed. Larry On Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:34:24 -0700 "christina" writes: > Time is turning the subjective into the objective, isn't it? > > I think on some level we get a sense of what an illusion time is: on > occasion we are given a reminder -- when the alarm clock beeps in > the morning and just a moment ago you were just settling under cover to > get a good night's sleep; or when you drive home from work leaving the > parking lot, and then, after going over all sorts of things in thought, > all of a sudden you are turning into your driveway 15 miles later. > Don't recall the passage of time -- it seems that it was only a moment ago > you were at work. Your mind transcends time in these examples, i think. > Evidence of seperation of mind and body is the fact that your > brain's 'rote memory autopilot' seperately controlled you, which in turn > controlled your vehicle, which got you where you needed to get, and > at the same time your mind was not on the road, but busy contemplating > other things. I don't mean full fledged day dreaming--just everyday > preoccupation. > > Is this a good example? From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Oct 03 05:11:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 12:11:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 83591 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 12:11:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 12:11:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 12:11:39 -0000 Received: from pool0050.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.50] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17x4pL-0007M5-00; Thu, 03 Oct 2002 05:11:36 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Claims to be a reincarnation of H.P.B. Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 05:08:16 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Oct 3 2002 Dear Friend: Claiming to be a reincarnation of H P B Whose authority are we to believe in? Theosophical history records a number of persons have tried to do this. But they were proved inept imposters and unsuccessful because of their ignorance of the matters that H P B taught. One has to KNOW what Theosophy teaches to be able to decide that, and knowing takes personal effort and application. "Authorities" are always suspect. What does Theosophy teach? 1. The immortality of all spirit/souls. We are all brothers together. 2. The total perfectibility of all beings over a long course of education during which each educates himself in the ways of brotherhood. 3. As brother immortal pilgrims through the devious pathways of life we need to locate those virtues that indicate wisdom, and this includes the service of all others, and therefore personal unselfishness and a perception of truth, wherever found. 4. Good or bad actions, thoughts, feelings impress Nature (which is universally sensitive) all around us, with our excellence or our deficiencies. Accordingly Nature reacts on us. Its mandate is to train all intelligent beings to act as brothers. 5. The action of Nature is called Karma (an equal reaction follows every action) In this, Nature acts to show us (by placing us in the same circumstances) the exact result of everything we think, feel or do. It is impersonal and impartial and utterly exact and true. 6. The Human spirit/soul is immortal, and uses many bodies in this quest for final perfection Reincarnation is the name given to that process. 7. The final perfection for human spirit/souls is WISDOM -- a perception of all the beings and laws in nature, and an understanding of the exact nature of their condition and needs. Perfects Men exist now and assist all sincere seekers for TRUTH. The main point is: Do they who make claims, have the knowledge that H P B displayed? The only proof of being "H P B" is to be found in their deportment. H P B did not claim to be a reincarnation of some earlier sage. Claims are easy to make. The proof relative to any claim is its actuality in practice and clarity of demonstration. Those who seek short-cuts, and do not think and search for themselves, are most likely too be swept up in wonder-seeking and wonder-believing. They seek among other things, personal power (to be used to dominate over others or over circumstances). They seek fame or notoriety. They are greedy to be "recognized." H P B never desired personal followers. She desired all to study and to find out for themselves whether the doctrines and teachings of Theosophy were valid. She declared that personal advancement was only to be attained through service to others. To be able to serve without selfish motives is the ideal, and for this each servitor to be absolutely harmless to others, and to attain as a requirement, the highest knowledge. The truly great Prophets, and Masters of Wisdom say that they are the Servers of Humanity. H P B came to bring a "message" from the Lodge of the WISE MEN OF THE PAST. Great names and personages belong to that Lodge: Buddha, Krishna, Christ, Hermes, Plato, Manco Capac, Pythagoras, Lao Tze, Confucius, Zoroaster, Paracelsus, Pico della Mirandola, Thomas Vaughn, Boehme, St. Germain, and dozens of others. They are not "dead!" They are alive and working in the world now, without making any claims at all. Wherever the general good of humanity is being supported, we may say, there we have evidence of Their Work. She showed that Their wisdom was evidently from a common source. It is to be traced everywhere in the past -- in every nation and every continent. It, (wisdom) belongs to no one. It is common to all. Consequently, all they brought to our attention, was/is its existence, and the fact that some men had/have been able to Master it by intense study and self-discipline. The opportunity to make of our present lives a profound and meaningful learning experience is in our hands, and it takes determination and a clear mind, unprejudiced in all respects, tolerant and unselfish, to perceive it and then to study the teachings of these great individuals and demonstrate to ourselves their validity -- we, each of us, have to find it for ourselves. Truth is universal, and is to be recognized by the verities and virtues it extols. It is everyone's property. "Believing in another" does not relieve us of responsibility. Our choices take us where we desire to go, but, note -- desire alone does not mean SPIRITUALITY in its highest sense. To be spiritual in living is what Jesus taught to the Jews (he lost sheep of the House of Israel). and so did the Buddha and Krishna to the Hindus, and Lao Tze and Confucius to China. But do the modern adherents to any religion truly follow the injunctions of their prophets? If not, why not ? I hoe this view, which is my own and derived from my study of theosophy will be of help. If you wish to know what H P B taught -- her version of what Theosophy teaches then go directly to a brief outline -- get a copy of H P B's KEY TO THEOSOPHY . It is available through http://www.blavatsky.net . Best wishes, Dallas ==================================== -----Original Message----- From: WOW Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 8:24 PM To: Subject: Claims to be a reincarnation of H.P.B. Hi all, I'm new here. Does anyone know of anyone claiming to be the reincarnation of H.P.Blavatsky? What are the theories on this? Is she to come back soon, or has she escaped to freedom? The reason I ask this is because of someone I've met who claims to be the reincarnation of H.P.Blavatsky. I don't want to hurt this persons feelings, or cause them further injury by crushing their delusions....but I do think its something that should be addressed. If she is H.P.B. (which I feel is highly unlikely) then maybe somebody should know about it. sincerely, WOW From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Oct 03 11:47:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 18:47:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 36093 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 18:46:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 18:46:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.232) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 18:46:57 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-092-144.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.92.144] helo=sprynet.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17xAzw-0000hh-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 03 Oct 2002 11:46:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3D9C90B0.D9130985@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 14:47:12 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The Temple of the Quest. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 brianmuehlbach wrote: > Wry: What I personally might do is examine Theosophy to see what, if > anything about it, is flawed. > > Brian: Blavatsky's construct (largely rooted in "The Great Chain of Being" > philosophy of the Renaissance) remains important to read because it > reveals how occultists of the 19th century where adjusting themselves to > the changing times. According to you. Most Theosophists disagree with you. > At the time of Blavatsky's writings a rapid advance of a rational, > scientific world-view was taking place. At the time of Blavatsky's writings, the known science of the time was becoming stratified into a religion; the head of the U.S. Patent office was considering closing shop because everything that could be invented had already been invented. It was widely believed that Newtonian Mechanics could ultimately explain everything, that the atom was indivisible, the "hole" in the Darwinian theory was yet to be filled by the publication of the previously discovered but still unknown to the general public Mendelian genetics. The rapid advance took place AFTER Blavatsky's writings, and was quite probably influenced by Blavatsky's writings. > As during the Renaisance when > for example alchemy and astrology were accepted sciences, the occult > was not seen anymore as an integrative framework that explained > the "hidden" ("true") meaning of the world. Do you have any idea what alchemy is? > The writings of Blavatsky remain under-researched especially by > Theosophists who not unlike Bible sects, take the writings as some kind > of revealed teachings from a worldwide White Brotherhood, Masters > (who are said to have looked upon humanity from its "inception") and > manuscripts from "Atlantis." A) All teachings are revealed. B) The term "White Brotherhood", for newcomers, has to do with intention, and NOT skin color. Most of the members would have been (and sometimes were) called "niggers" by the British and Americans. C) The term "Masters" and the concept of wisdom from "Atlantis" were, while mentioned in Blavatsky's work, were emphasized more by later Theosophists and self-styled Theosophists, notably Alice Bailey, who was raised as a Fundamentalist Christian and was a racist, Jew hater, and considered all homosexuals to be inherently evil. Those who wish to put down Blavatsky (notably Peter Washington in MADAME BLAVATSKY'S BABOON) would frequently take Bailey's statements, and attribute them to Blavatsky, just as you often do. > Modern writers that have started to properly research Theosophy (a > large job indeed) are Carlson who wrote a book on Theosophy in Russia > (*) , K.Paul Johnson, even he stated that he has been more apologetic > in his books then he would be today about Blavatsky. Paul's writings are quite good, and he was royally screwed over by several prominent Theosophists. Bart Lidofsky From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Oct 03 13:29:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 20:29:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 18147 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 20:29:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 20:29:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 20:29:23 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id r.5f.2e6f7fe9 (25305) for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:29:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5f.2e6f7fe9.2ace02a0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:29:20 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World waves and periods To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 10/02/02 9:43:48 PM, micforster@yahoo.com writes: >--- leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: >"Are you trying to conflate the intangible, and variably >jagged waves of stock market fluctuations with the >tangible (energetic) and fixed sinusoidal waves >of light rays or ocean water? If so, you're >stretching science, and even metaphysics, a bit too >far... And, by such category errors you might >find yourself in a real tailspin when trying >to understand the true nature of reality..." I forgot to add "sound" to the above mix. >I think a tailspin is an understatement. I'm off to >have a beer.... I'll join you. Cheers. Then I'll go off and have a jam session (last night, and maybe tonight, till 1:00AM in the park :-) playing improv jazz (and post sixty's razz) on my Versitar/Musicane. When you get into the music intuitively, and what you hear is feeding back to what you play, sing, or dance to, you'll begin to understand the true nature of waves. The trick, like in meditation, is "letting go" and becoming the impersonal observer of what you do, hear, see, smell, touch, taste, and think. As Lao Tse said, "I do nothing and everything gets done." Real "waves" sound, light, and all cosmic fields, have the ability, due to their inherent energetics, to impinge on each other, add to, subtract, interfere, create new waves, form complex combinations, and, thereby, make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. In a music combo, each musician, gets into it in the eternal NOW, and becomes the sounds he hears from all the other players -- then, as time slows down so you can hear the intervals of silence between the notes, it becomes easy to take a part (remain separate) and run with it. Thus adding to the whole until the entire audience is caught up in it. I don't think stock market fluctuations could bring people to that level of totally involved and active, but completely relaxed bliss. Think about it. Best regards, LHM From wayoutwesley@yahoo.com Thu Oct 03 16:33:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: wayoutwesley@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_1_4); 3 Oct 2002 23:33:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 79145 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2002 23:33:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2002 23:33:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.85) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Oct 2002 23:33:05 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.142] by n29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2002 23:33:03 -0000 Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 23:33:03 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Claims to be a reincarnation of H.P.B. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6913 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "WayOutWesley" X-Originating-IP: 216.61.218.108 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=66361653 X-Yahoo-Profile: WayOutWesley --- In theos-talk@y..., wrote: > Oct 3 2002 > > Dear Friend: > > Claiming to be a reincarnation of H P B > > > Whose authority are we to believe in? > > Theosophical history records a number of persons have tried > to do this. But they were proved inept imposters and > unsuccessful because of their ignorance of the matters that > H P B taught. > > One has to KNOW what Theosophy teaches to be able to decide > that, and knowing takes personal effort and application. > "Authorities" are always suspect. > > What does Theosophy teach? > > 1. The immortality of all spirit/souls. We are all > brothers together. > > 2. The total perfectibility of all beings over a long > course of education during which each educates himself in > the ways of brotherhood. > > 3. As brother immortal pilgrims through the devious > pathways of life we need to locate those virtues that > indicate wisdom, and this includes the service of all > others, and therefore personal unselfishness and a > perception of truth, wherever found. > > 4. Good or bad actions, thoughts, feelings impress Nature > (which is universally sensitive) all around us, with our > excellence or our deficiencies. Accordingly Nature reacts > on us. Its mandate is to train all intelligent beings to > act as brothers. > > 5. The action of Nature is called Karma (an equal reaction > follows every action) In this, Nature acts to show us (by > placing us in the same circumstances) the exact result of > everything we think, feel or do. It is impersonal and > impartial and utterly exact and true. > > 6. The Human spirit/soul is immortal, and uses many bodies > in this quest for final perfection Reincarnation is the > name given to that process. > > 7. The final perfection for human spirit/souls is WISDOM -- > a perception of all the beings and laws in nature, and an > understanding of the exact nature of their condition and > needs. Perfects Men exist now and assist all sincere > seekers for TRUTH. > > > The main point is: Do they who make claims, have the > knowledge that H P B displayed? > > > The only proof of being "H P B" is to be found in their > deportment. H P B did not claim to be a reincarnation of > some earlier sage. Claims are easy to make. The proof > relative to any claim is its actuality in practice and > clarity of demonstration. > > Those who seek short-cuts, and do not think and search for > themselves, are most likely too be swept up in > wonder-seeking and wonder-believing. They seek among other > things, personal power (to be used to dominate over others > or over circumstances). They seek fame or notoriety. They > are greedy to be "recognized." > > H P B never desired personal followers. She desired all to > study and to find out for themselves whether the doctrines > and teachings of Theosophy were valid. She declared that > personal advancement was only to be attained through service > to others. To be able to serve without selfish motives is > the ideal, and for this each servitor to be absolutely > harmless to others, and to attain as a requirement, the > highest knowledge. The truly great Prophets, and Masters of > Wisdom say that they are the Servers of Humanity. > > H P B came to bring a "message" from the Lodge of the WISE > MEN OF THE PAST. Great names and personages belong to that > Lodge: Buddha, Krishna, Christ, Hermes, Plato, Manco Capac, > Pythagoras, Lao Tze, Confucius, Zoroaster, Paracelsus, Pico > della Mirandola, Thomas Vaughn, Boehme, St. Germain, and > dozens of others. They are not "dead!" They are alive and > working in the world now, without making any claims at all. > Wherever the general good of humanity is being supported, we > may say, there we have evidence of Their Work. > > She showed that Their wisdom was evidently from a common > source. It is to be traced everywhere in the past -- in > every nation and every continent. It, (wisdom) belongs to > no one. It is common to all. Consequently, all they > brought to our attention, was/is its existence, and the fact > that some men had/have been able to Master it by intense > study and self-discipline. > > The opportunity to make of our present lives a profound and > meaningful learning experience is in our hands, and it takes > determination and a clear mind, unprejudiced in all > respects, tolerant and unselfish, to perceive it and then to > study the teachings of these great individuals and > demonstrate to ourselves their validity -- we, each of us, > have to find it for ourselves. Truth is universal, and is > to be recognized by the verities and virtues it extols. It > is everyone's property. > > "Believing in another" does not relieve us of > responsibility. Our choices take us where we desire to go, > but, note -- desire alone does not mean SPIRITUALITY in its > highest sense. To be spiritual in living is what Jesus > taught to the Jews (he lost sheep of the House of Israel). > and so did the Buddha and Krishna to the Hindus, and Lao Tze > and Confucius to China. But do the modern adherents to any > religion truly follow the injunctions of their prophets? If > not, why not ? > > I hoe this view, which is my own and derived from my study > of theosophy will be of help. > > If you wish to know what H P B taught -- her version of what > Theosophy teaches then go directly to a brief outline -- get > a copy of H P B's KEY TO THEOSOPHY . It is available > through http://www.blavatsky.net . > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > > Thanks for your kind reply. I worry that this person doesn't cast H.P.B in the best of lights... Talking of jews in a negative way and using the idea of root races to promote a type of social darwinism. Science has proven that all races living today are the same homo sapiens sapiens. There is no cognitive or intellectual disparity between them. Blacks and Jews aren't remnants of a lower evolutionary rung. Is this what H.P.B. had in mind when she was talking about evolutionary cycles? Did she look upon Jews and Blacks as less developed brothers and sisters in this particular evolutionary cycle? Or was she too a product of her culture and environment? I know she said that all souls go through all the stages...so that there is no intrinsic difference between them ultimately....but some people use her words to promote a type of racial hierarchy in our present frame. I know that almost everyone has lopsided development...and have area's to work on. Cultures too, are lopsided. I was just wondering if perhaps Madame Blavatsky might also have had some little bit of that? Did she have some kind of karma thing with the Jewish people? What's even more ironic about this....is that this person claiming to be the reincarnation of H.P.B. also claims to be an african american. Would this have any bearing upon her claim? From mhart@idirect.ca Thu Oct 03 17:40:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: mhart@idirect.ca X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 4 Oct 2002 00:40:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 99623 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2002 00:40:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Oct 2002 00:40:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO quark.look.ca) (207.136.80.22) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Oct 2002 00:40:49 -0000 Received: from [216.154.45.3] (helo=idirect.ca) by quark.look.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 17xGVv-00043f-00; Fri, 04 Oct 2002 00:40:19 +0000 Message-ID: <3D9CE568.31435DE9@idirect.ca> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 20:48:40 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Theosophy Study List Cc: Universal Seekers , "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" , "study@blavatsky.net" Subject: message from James Twyman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Mauri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=60894584 X-Yahoo-Profile: sunzenn I received the following email today from a member of the Toronto TS. I'm passing it on withot comment. ================================== <<<>>>>>> From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Oct 03 17:55:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 4 Oct 2002 00:55:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 15773 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2002 00:55:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Oct 2002 00:55:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Oct 2002 00:55:09 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-35-092-144.nycmny1.elnk.dsl.genuity.net ([4.35.92.144] helo=sprynet.com) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17xGkH-0002po-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 03 Oct 2002 17:55:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3D9CE700.E35BEEB8@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 20:55:28 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Claims to be a reincarnation of H.P.B. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 WayOutWesley wrote: > Is this what H.P.B. had in mind when she was talking about > evolutionary cycles? Did she look upon Jews and Blacks as less > developed brothers and sisters in this particular evolutionary > cycle? Or was she too a product of her culture and environment? No, that's what Alice Bailey said, NOT Blavatsky. Bart Lidofsky From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Thu Oct 03 21:47:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_2_2_0); 4 Oct 2002 04:47:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 31091 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2002 04:47:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Oct 2002 04:47:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.80) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Oct 2002 04:47:45 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.138] by n24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 2002 04:47:42 -0000 Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 04:47:42 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Atlantis : detailed response by "theos-talk scientists" ? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 49029 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 203.146.88.170 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach I find the text below, posted on my website, to contain convincing arguments and although directed as a critique of G.Hanckock's search for Atlantis, at the same time makes it clear that the seven sunken "continents" from the Secret Doctrine (as home to the "seven" races..) simple are fiction. Unless there are some detailed counter arguments addressing the details below. Besides it also makes unlikely that the Stanza's of Dzyan are from Atlantis from where the "Aryans" would have climbed up the Himalayas to establish the Great White Brotherhood in Tibet and their library as is claimed by Blavatsky. The mystery of Atlantis has gripped the popular imagination at least since the late nineteenth century. Today, it continues to spawn a cottage industry of books and television programmes promoting the ideas of "alternative archaeologists" about lost supercivilizations obsessed with sky-ground correlations, ancient astronauts mating with cavewomen, or secret brotherhoods of priest-astronomers guiding our ancestors to a higher purpose. One of the most significant problems for the lost civilization hypothesis is the development of agriculture, which is supported by a wealth of archaeological and genetic evidence. Even if we accept every shred of Hancock's evidence without question, he has done nothing more than propose that over the course of the 5,000 years people spent living through the Ice Age meltdown people managed to raise some stone monuments, develop a spiritual system of great complexity, and (most controversially) somehow manage to map the world. While many conservative archaeologists will disagree with at least the last of these things, it is not hard to conceive it possible. Since ancient humans arrived in Australia by boat before 50,000 B.C., it is not that hard to imagine that Ice Age peoples did explore their coast lines. Graham Hancock, like many of us, would like to think of a time in history when human society was closer to nature, when we were less obsessed by materialism and more in tune with our spirituality. It may well be comforting to think of such a golden age and to employ the past to idealize our own priorities. However if there is not any evidence with which to verify this golden age in history then this will only ever serve as an allegorical tale and not a genuine portrait of what pre-historical life may have truly been like. Hancock recognizes that many archaeologists brand him as "The Lunatic Fringe", and while this is disarming, it is not in any way equivalent to identifying the evidence which actually contradicts his theories. When the sea level rose again, while the ice caps were melting, vegetation was killed off by salination and inundated (gradually), while animals and people who had been on the continental shelf moved back onto the continents and large islands such as Japan, Sri Lanka, Tasmania, Britain and Ireland where they joined the people who had been living there anyway. Flood myths that occur all over the world are the "folk memory" of the experience of suffering 10,000 years of (slowly) rising sea level, and the continuous loss of hunting and foraging territory. The allegation by Graham Hancock that the topic of people living on the continental shelf during the Ice Age has not been previously studied is incorrect. Archaeologists and geologists have in fact been studying exactly this topic since at least 1930. Hundreds of papers and books written by different experts working independently, have been published in many countries. The failure to recognize the work of these experts is derogatory to them, and results in a bias throughout Hancock's recent TV series. Hancock refers frequently to tidal waves, floods and other catastrophes. The average rate of sea level rise as the ice melted was one metre ( three feet three inches) every 100 years, and occasionally as much as one metre every 50 years. Models which propose "spikes" of rapid rise indicate a maximum rate of about seven centimetrees ( three inches) per year. This rise would gradually eliminate certain hunting grounds during a person's life time, but would not cause any personal risk. The chances of being killed or drowned by a storm or a big wave or coastal flood was exactly the same as it is today and probably less because the population density was lower. The International Geological Correlation Programme (IGCP)-Project-61, and successor IGCP projects, showed that sea level curves based on submerged peat, shells, mangroves, ice cores, erosion geomorphology, sediments, borings in alluvium on land and on raised beaches (Pirazzoli, Bloom and Tooley) show a general consistency world wide though there are regional differences in the curves due to glacial isostasy and hydro-isostasy, the gravitational attraction of the ice mass itself, tectonics and sediment loading (Clark, Lingle, Peltier, et al). Hancock works by stringing together sequences of suppositions, speculations, and what ifs? This is illogical and does not work (see my analysis of this in my review of the second programme). Ice Ages earlier than the last have been ignored. This omits an important dimension of continental shelf archaeology. There is no sign in the programmes that Hancock measures, records, or checks field data himself, other than prodding the rocks with a knife. [This is not thorough.] Numerous standard texts and well-proven sources of information, offshore geological maps, palaeo-vegetation maps, etc., are ignored. The sites visited by Hancock in Malta and Bimini did not show any signs of submarine archaeological relics and were natural geological features. I have dived on both sites myself in the 1960's and 70's. I informed Hancock's film company in June, 2000 that these sites were natural and that there were better sites to visit. This information was ignored, although all the documents and reports on better sites are in the public domain (see bibliography, below). The sites of Cambay and Poompuhur are almost certainly natural rock. I had no prior information on these sites, but expert opinion of marine geologists, acoustics experts and sedimentiologists who have worked for decades with sonar, side-scan sonar and sub-bottom profiling confirms this opinion (see my review of the second programme). Since that time professional prehistoric archaeologists who have seen the programme have also said the materials were not artefacts. The Japanese sites of Yonaguni and Kerama are natural rock, with no sign of archaeological significance. Again, I informed Hancock's film company in June 2000 that these sites were natural, and that there were better sites to visit. This information was ignored, although all the documents and reports on better sites are in the public domain (see bibliography, below). The Japanese Nippon TV company showed me video recordings of the Yonaguni site in about 1992 and I considered it to obviously be natural rock, an opinion that was reported on Japanese domestic television. Folk myths describing floods in the distant past have indeed been provoked and caused by the real rise of sea level at the end of the ice age, but that does not mean that every embellishment of the stories is literally true. Many flood myths contain references to such dramas as evil kings, wicked princesses, angry gods, sexual perversions, luxurious palaces, complex irrigation systems, broken lock gates, galloping horses, church bells and all sorts of other emotive symbols. We do not believe these details any more than we believe that Poseidon really existed with a three-pointed spear and a big beard and no clothes. Analysts agree that the Greek myths of gods and mortals, as well as central European fairy stories, can tell us important truths about the human psyche but we do not launch expeditions to look for Cinderella's glass slipper. The myth of the flood is NOT an accurately dated historical record - such details are added at the time that the myth was written down which was some time during the last 5,000 years. Such details may make the story more marketable - but you don't have to buy it. If Graham Hancock wants to make an exciting programme about the human occupation of the continental shelves during the Ice Age - which is a very important subject - why does he not film the incredible Grotte Cosquer where rock paintings 19,000 years old are reached from a cave entrance 40 metres below the sea? Why does he not film the submerged Neolithic village at Atlit off Israel, or the submerged Jomon culture site at a depth of 25 metres off Tokonami River, Japan? Why not photograph the caves and terraces off British Columbia where Daryl Fedje found stone tools 52 metres below the sea? These places really exist, and have been mapped, and archaeologists have found skeletons, and charcoal from fires, and baskets, and fresh- water wells, and other structures ten thousand years old and more. Why photograph rocks and call them a "Lost Civilization"? No-one else working offshore sees anything like that which Hancock claims to see. He is living in a different world. I have dived at almost every spot mentioned by the programme, and at many more with verifiable ancient ruins and occupied stone-age sites. This stuff was boring by comparison with reality. Ignoring Archaeology Hancock is, of course, correct about the timing and end of the last glaciation. He correct in saying that humans were living on the continental shelf, and that the places where they lived are now covered by the sea. Beyond that, key mistakes and wrong assumptions shot through everything, so that almost every statement that one longed to applaud turned out to be seriously misleading. Hancock repeatedly asserts that archaeologists have persistently ignored the importance of the continental shelf. This assertion is wrong. Yet, because it implies that he had been working in a vacuum where no other archaeologist had produced any data, it permits him to say anything he likes no matter how outrageous it is. The known facts dictate other, more exciting, conclusions. Hancock ignores the hundreds of prehistoric sites already found offshore which totally contradict his own dubious "findings". Godwin (1930s), Blanc ( 1930-42), Birdsell (1950's), Shephard (1950's), Bonifay (1960's), Flemming (1968-1995), Masters and Flemming (1983), Scuvee and Verague (1978), Cockerel, Murphy, Clausen (1970's), Fischer and Skaarup ( 1980's), Dunbar and Faught (1980's), Daryl Fedje (1990's), John Chappell and Rhys Jones (1980's), Galili (1980's), Kenzo Hayashida and Araki ( 1990's), Momber (2001), and Werz and Flemming (2001) and many others on every continent of the world (except Antarctica) have found hundreds of submerged prehistoric sites. These sites fit exactly into the usual sequence of Middle Paleolithic, Upper Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic eras. Stone tools, kill sites, artifacts, skeletons, hearths, shell-middens and burials, and all the associated deposits and organics, plot exactly as one would expect and show how early tribes exploited the seashore. There is no evidence for "Lost Kingdoms". Hancock is quoted - in the Guardian in advance of his programme - as saying that "If the case is made, then it means that the foundations are out of the bottom of archaeology". This attitude assumes rather strangely that archaeologists are not influenced by evidence they see every day in front of their noses. If the accepted concepts and paradigms are false then the thousands of archaeologists digging all over the world are blind. Archaeology is dynamic and produces new data every hour of every day. In spite of this, nobody finds data that supports a "lost civilization" hypothesis, and very few archaeologists think that anything could be better explained by such a theory. The existing structure works well and is continuously adjusted at the margins. While not expecting to find "advanced civilizations" of 10,000-20,000 years ago, archaeologists would react very quickly indeed if they found one, provided the evidence were robust. Ignoring Geology Frequent references to tidal waves, catastrophes and massive floods, along with portrayals of vast towering breakers pouring across the screen, are misleading. When the ice caps melted sea level rose about 100 metres during a period of 10,000 years. That is a rate of one metre per 100 years. Certainly there were periods of faster rise and brief halts or recessions so that the rate may have been 2 metres per 100 years for some periods. Geologists think in terms of hundreds of millions of years. Anything that happens within one million years is considered to be "fast". Anything faster than this is "rapid". It is possible to find scientific papers about the end of the ice age which say that the sea level rise was rapid. They mean a rate of one metre rise in 50 years. The rising sea levels did cause prehistoric people to abandon their hunting grounds and to leave the coast, as at Atlit or Aghios Petros. It did cut off Malta and other islands, such as Tasmania and Kangaroo Island from Australia, and it did separate Australia from Papua-New Guinea, and Britain from France. Close to the melting ice sheets there were occasional slumps or collapses of ice dams and releases of lake water. These would have caused large, local waves with little change of sea level globally. But - sorry - nobody was "overwhelmed" by oceans rising one metre in 50 years! Hancock's programme ignored the fact that there have been six or more ice ages in the last 800,000 years, and that hominids occupied the continental shelf on each occasion. This means that the real objectives of submarine prehistory are much more exciting than Hancock suggested. It was a pity to ignore this point. Malta This first segment of Hancock's programme examines Malta, an island in the Mediterranean north of the African coast, and Bimini, an island of the Bahamas. I agree that the scale of structures which exist on Malta is amazing and difficult to explain. I agree that more work needs to be done offshore there. The flooding of the link between Malta-Sicily-Italy is important. There is a famous length of submerged "cart-track" which crosses a bay on the coast of Malta near a town called Birzebbugia. These "cart tracks" have been known for decades and there was a major article on them in the Geographic Journal last year. I snorkelled on them in about 1985. There are two parallel tracks that can seen sloping down the bedrock into the sea. Instead of filming these, Hancock chose to film a perfectly normal groove in the rock many miles away; a cave which looks a bit square; and a submerged rock arch. Several shots in the film showed dozens of caves along the coastal cliff, all of which are entirely natural. Malta is composed of limestone. Since limestone bedding is often horizontal, roofs of limestone caves are often straight and squarish. Why was the underwater cave any different? Martineau did an extensive survey of submarine caves in Malta in the 1960's. If Hancock wanted to prove that the things he saw were man-made - and I mean prove - then he, too, should have made an exhaustive survey of the region to determine whether similar features occur naturally. He should have shown that the one arch that he thought was man-made was so different from all the natural ones that his conclusion was inescapable. Yet there were no measurements, and there is no evidence. Give Hancock a clue about a nearby submerged village - Atlit - or a Paleolithic cave with paintings 19,000 years old 40 metres deep in the sea - Cosquer - and he goes off in the opposite direction and photographs a natural piece of rock and says it is part of some lost civilization. The discussion about earlier pre-Megalithic occupation of Malta was interesting (without need for lost kingdoms). My own guess - and it is totally a guess - is that 30,000 to 40,000 years ago people were hunting and living in Italy, on Sicily and on the associated Malta promontory. But in that Palaeolithic time small numbers of people needed vast areas on which to hunt. When Malta was cut off as the sea level rose it could not support a separate population as a sustainable breeding group. The same happened to Kangaroo Island off south Australia. This resulted in a huge span of time passing before the island of Malta could be re- occupied by people who had developed boats, and who built the megalithic temples. The earlier Palaeolithic phase would now be very difficult to find, and much of it would be under the sea. That is worth researching. Bimini The Bimini 'road feature' has been filmed dozens of times before, as Hancock gallantly said. Gifford and others dived on it in the 1970's and drilled and sampled the rock and showed that it was all natural. The only new aspect presented by Hancock concerned a story about granite blocks. He suggested that granite blocks were precisely aligned on top of the "road feature" and were lifted off before 1930. This is pretty rich. Since the "road feature" was not discovered until the 1960's, how on earth could Hancock's delightful informant know that the granite was on top of the "road"? The existence of wrecked cargoes of masonry in the area is well known, and Blashford Snell dived on them in the 1980's. Granting that the stone was quarried from somewhere within five to ten miles of the "road feature" does not prove that there existed a multi- coursed structure. This is a classic case of the wildest wishful thinking. The dodgy logic of this argument is breathtaking. There was a actually a complete contradiction between the presentation about Malta and that about the Bahamas. In Malta we were asked to believe that ancient peoples would naturally build on the highest hills, and in the case of the Bahamas we were asked to believe the opposite. Many of the computer graphics showing the rising sea, ancient shorelines and melting ice caps were well done and illustrated the facts extremely well. Good educational stuff. But, the use of "morphing" graphics was brilliantly deceptive. On several occasions a very irregular rocky feature with weeds and flickering colour gradually became smoother, straighter, more uniform, and more artificial, like a conjuring trick before your very eyes. I was impressed by the process, although it is common enough in commercial advertisements and movies like Terminator. The effect was extremely forceful in pressing the viewer to see what the producers wanted. There is nothing wrong with the use of these techniques, the effects are overt, but the cleverness of the technique does not make the assertion true. The rocks were natural. I cannot imagine that a single person enquiring over the course of a few months could produce a credible revision of the entire archaeological corpus of data on the sub-continent of India, yet that seemed to be Graham Hancock's objective. The dating of Dvaraka is published as 3700 years (S. R. Rao). Hancock disputes this, and suggests Dvaraka is only 1200 years old. By comparison with Bronze Age coastal cities in the Mediterranean, the earlier date would be perfectly acceptable. Hancock seeks to advantage his Flooded Kingdom theory by questioning the earlier date and thus make Dvaraka seem very recent so that subsequent footage of much less credible underwater "ruins" would seem to compare favourably with Dvaraka. I was puzzled that a programme purporting to be about ruins under the sea only had a few minutes in total of undersea footage. I had expected at least 20-30 minutes of underwater pictures, with extensive presentation of acoustic side-scan images. It is reasonable in scientific work to develop a series of stages of experiment, data, and deduction which can be demonstrably proven as true, and then to conclude the presentation with some suggestions as to the next stage of work which might be useful. These may be based on logical projections of the argument, or on hunches or speculation. This is accepted at the end of an argument, because it indicates logical possibilities that should be checked out for future research For example, when I speculated on the basis of the connection between Malta-Sicily and Italy that Palaeolithic tribes had hunted on the continental shelf, and that this proposition could be checked, this was a reasonable proposition on the basis of the previous established evidence. But this line of logic does not work in reverse. You cannot make a legitimate chain of arguments which goes "A may have happened and it is possible that B happened and what if C happened and therefore I conclude definitely that there were Flooded Kingdoms in the Ice Age". In the social sciences there are usually dozens of plausible alternative possibilities. Thus, each time that Hancock says "A" may have happened he must also concede that multiple other things are equally likely to be the explanation. For instance, after three such steps for which a chain of five alternatives has been suggested three times, 125 different possible outcomes or explanations are possible. Yet only one of these chains might - conservatively - be supported by and be consistent with the Flooded Kingdom proposition. The normal scientific procedure when confronted with 125 possible explanations for events is to first weed out the non-starters, and reduce the field before spending time and money on expensive research. A quick check on the Flooded Kingdoms proposition would show masses of evidence against it from the hundred or more known stone-age sites on the continental shelf, and evidence of contemporaneous cultures on land and that would be the end of the argument. To waste any more time on the Flooded Kingdoms proposal would be a blunder. Instead, after listing multiple chains of "possibly, what-if and could-it-be" Hancock concludes that his one and only proposal, the Flooded Kingdoms hypotheses, is strongly substantiated. It is not. Another technique used by Hancock is frequent references such as "I have now discovered..." or "Now I know that..." as if points presented were his original discoveries. In most cases the "discovery" has been known to students of archaeology and oceanography for decades, and could have been summarized in a few minutes, leaving time for some really original footage of underwater ruins, if they exist. One general example of this is presentation of computer generated maps showing the seas. We returned again and again to different versions of this, and sometimes the same version more than once. The technique developed by Dr Milne is undoubtedly useful, and could have been used once or twice. However, any modern atlas, such as the Times Concise Atlas shows approximately the depth of the sea on the continental shelf. My atlas at home (not a research document) shows the depth contours at 25 metres, 50 metres, and 200 metres with a change of blue tint at each contour, for every country with a sea coast. Anyone with such a common atlas can see immediately the light blue area out to the 200m contour, the limit of the continental shelf. If you know that the Ice Age sea level was at -25 metres about 8000 years ago, and -50 metres about 10,000 years ago, the two intermediate colours tell you where the coastline was at these two dates. That is not rocket science. You can do it at home. My concern is that much of this presentation seemed designed to baffle and impress the viewer, to mystify rather than to explain matters which are fundamentally very simple, and fun. There are probably stone-age human occupation sites off every coast in the world, and any scuba diver could find artifacts with a bit of luck, and with the correct information of what to look for. It is not a mystery. Mythology The thesis that the late-glacial rise of sea level was the cause of widespread flood myths was presented in great detail in a book published by F.J. North in 1957. (see refs below). I read this a few years later, and expanded the logic in Chapter One of my book "Cities in the Sea", published in 1970 in the USA, 1971 in UK, and a few years later in Japan. This model is widely accepted, and has been developed independently by several researchers. As is evident from the Old Testament, and other religious texts. Life is, and always has been, a rather frustrating and puzzling experience. There are good times, but still, most of us also experience some pretty nasty things. When this happens we long to know why. Was life always so unjust? Did people always suffer? Do the gods really care nothing about us? Thus many belief systems produce ideas or concepts relating to a period when things were better in the past, or, in some religions, when they will be better after death. The change from that idyllic past to the reality of the present is portrayed either as simply loss of the perfect state - "Golden Age" - or a moral punishment for sin - "Fall of Man". The myths as referred to by Hancock are somewhat wrapped round each other, and imply that the Indians (and other peoples) believe in a wonderful period in the past when people had been richer and happier and that they also believe in Flood Myths. Both events are in the past! By Hancock's logic, the cultures that existed at the time of the sea level rise were the rich and technically developed cultures of the Golden Age. The confusion or merging of the myths is very convenient for the "Flooded Kingdoms" proposition but it does not work. The Fall and the Golden Age have no reference to place and time. They are purely spiritual or psychological concepts, even though they are sometimes fitted into a theological chronology. The Flood is very much time and site specific. The Flood Myth becomes embedded in stone age culture during the period 20,000 to 5,000 years Before Present ( BP) because of the intensive way which pre-literate peoples relate to the land and nature in general. If you live by hunting and finding wild plants and roots and insects which are good to eat, and rely on finding regular supplies of freshwater in the ground, you develop an encyclopaedic knowledge of the terrain. Aboriginal peoples in Australia, and probably other hunting cultures such as African Bushmen, memorize voluminous path or track narratives, describing every rock, shelter, shrub, and spring, shade, and danger along hundreds, if not thousands, of miles of track. These memorized records have to be handed down from generation to generation, along with all the additional data about seasons, migration of animals, geographical variation in climate, and so on. One can see the impact that a continuously rising sea level would have on coastal pre-literate hunting or migratory cultures. Even if the vertical change within a few decades might seem small, the horizontal incursion was observable, and hunting tracks that were functional during one generation could be flooded and useless two or three generations later. Rising sea level became one of the things a young hunter had to know about, along with the danger of storms, dangerous animals, poisonous plants, and so on. It was obvious. The late Rhys Jones reported Australian tribal track records which had loops that extended offshore from the present coastline and tracked back again, because the "mental tape record" had not been altered. In some cases it was easier to keep the "tape" intact and add footnotes in daily life, rather than to alter the "master tape in the mind". When I was researching in 1982 on the Aborigine crossing routes from Timor to North Australia the Aborigine Council Leaders in Bathurst Island were perfectly aware that their ancestors had crossed the sea walking on the sea floor when the sea was lower. They had not learnt this from modern scientists. They saw us as the novice beginners studying an obvious fact, and they encouraged our research using divers. By about 10,000 years BP we find Neolithic villages in many parts of Europe, Africa, and Asia. (See Mellart, the Neolithic of the Middle East) Several such villages have been found under the sea. (See Galili, Efstratiou, Flemming, and others). Towns such as Catal Huyuk in Turkey were founded in this period. The Neolithic people had settled down, started building villages and small towns, and began to practice agriculture and, on the coast, more advanced methods of fishing. When the sea level rose over a Neolithic village the occupants were forced to abandon a significant investment in capital structures. That hurt. In practice, a rise of one metre per 100 years would force the occupants to abandon houses on the waterfront, and build on the landward side of the settlement, until, due to the topography of the site, the whole settlement might have to be deserted. This process seems to have occurred at Aghios Petros (Efstratiou, Flemming) and at Atlit (Galili). A