From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Sep 01 00:41:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 07:41:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 5277 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 07:41:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 07:41:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m06.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.161) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 07:41:02 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id r.72.21cd06b1 (3964) for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 03:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <72.21cd06b1.2aa31e87@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 03:40:55 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Secret Doctrine as religious belief. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 There we go again, Brigitte. Non sequiturs and sly innuendoes. You answer my questions, and I'll answer yours. Besides, I don't remember saying anything about men or chimps. As Yoda (or even HPB might say, after writing about 1600 pages of impeccable and unassailable logic based on "fundamental principles" explaining the concluions of theosophical metaphysics, as well as Cosmo- and Anthropogenesis) -- "Unfounded assertions, reliance on questionable "authorities," and baseless opinions, do not an argument, make." LHM In a message dated 08/31/02 3:49:52 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >You mean there is evidence that supports SD creation myth that man >does not derive from chimps ? > > Brian > >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: >> What neurobiological theories are you referring to? And what makes >> Hofstadter an authority? >> >> But, I suppose you consider those assertions and references as a really >> rational answer to our refutations of your unfounded assertions and >> prejudicial opinions. >> >> Obviously, your dependence on questionable authorities and obliquely >> labeling anything that refutes your false statements as "anti intellectualism," >> is a sure sign that you don't know what you are talking about. >> >> Of course, I understand how you must, "at all costs," convince us that >> only non-Americans like you are "rational" and "intellectual"... (Whatever >> that means in your conceptions? :-) >> >> LHM >> >> In a message dated 08/30/02 9:59:56 PM, brianmuehlbach@y... writes: >> >> >Brian: If neurobiologists are correct, most brains will come to >> >understand reality if properly nurtured. It is ignorance which provides >> >the necessity for just-so stories, with all the tragic consequencesthat >> >follow when people defend a flawed worldview at all costs. >> > >> >The number of ant-rational responses has been increasing on this list >> >lately. There is a good book I have been reading two weeks ago, and >> >that is good for all to read dealing with Theosophical literature. >> > >> >It is Richard Hofstadter's: Anti-Intellectualism in American Life. Its >> >available in almost all bookstores today, for free in most libraries. >> >And covers all of the issues brought up here lately. >> > > >> > Brian >> >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: >> >> >> >> In a message dated 08/29/02 6:08:02 PM, brianmuehlbach@y... >writes: >> >> >> >> > If your belief is based on "inner feelings" (the "inner man") , > >> "religion" >> >> >("Theos-" ) or even so-called "common sense" as you might >claim, it >> >> >is far more likely to be wrong than theories based on scientific > >evidence. >> >> > >> >> > If what you claim is based on more then religious faith then >> >> > present the evidence that supports SD creation myth, the >posting below >> >> >and the content of your two previous postings. And I' be glad to > >discuss >> >> >them. >> >> > > >> >> >Brian >> >> >> >> Waste of time -- since all your "limited" physicalist scientific >evidence >> >> is based solely on the lowest or densest "material" plane of >universal >> >> involution and evolution, and hasn't a clue about the cause, nature, >> >> experience, or mechanisms of consciousness, thought, perception, >> awareness, >> >> etc... And, cannot discuss the relationship between, or "binding" >of >brain >> >> and mind from an objective scientific level, or explain ESP, ASC, > >action >> at a >> >> distance or quantum entanglement, and other seminal questions >that >> >> completely baffle established reductive science (but not >theosophical >> >> "deductive science"). >> >> >> >> Besides, the SD does not support the "creation myth" of universal > >origin >> ex >> >> nihilo, since its teachings re universal Cosmogenesis -- originating > >> lawfully >> >> out of the primal singularity or zero-point of infinite potential > >angular >> >> momenta or "spinergy" -- are based solely on fundamental cyclic >laws that >> >> are logically and mathematically sound... Some of which >(re: "coadunate >> >> but not consubstantial enfolded fields" in at least three to ten+ > >> dimensions, >> >> following laws of electricity as well as quantum and relativity >physics, >> >> zero-point energy, zero-point origination of all fields, etc.) has > >been >> fully >> >> confirmed by the cutting edge developments of Superstring/M- >brane theory >> >> that has falsified or modified much of conventional modern physics > >(which >> >> they admit, doesn't have to be correct or truthful, so long as it > >works >> in the >> >> limited area of its concern... i.e., The metric physical "space time >> >> continuum." >> >> >> >> So, the fact that quantum physics can give us digital computers, >CD's and >> >> cell phones, doesn't mean it knows anything about how the metric >physical >> >> universe composed of the "particles" they work with, came about, >or >> >> originated... And, from where or what? As for anthropological >opinions of >> >> Man's origins and evolution -- their "evidence " is so sparse, and > >their >> >> conclusions so far from being "scientific" as to be completely >ignored as >> a >> >> basis of logical discussion. >> >> >> >> Suggest you seriously study the "Secret Doctrine" and find out for > >> yourself >> >> what it really teaches, instead of basing your prejudicial denials >of >> >> theosophy and bashing of HPB on second hand opinions, Nazi >propaganda, and >> >> flawed physical science. >> >> >> >> LHM From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Sep 01 00:45:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 07:45:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 25891 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 07:45:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 07:45:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d10.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.42) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 07:45:27 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id r.153.135b45d5 (3964) for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 03:45:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <153.135b45d5.2aa31f93@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 03:45:23 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Consciousness - What it is To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 08/31/02 10:32:03 AM, Nisk98114@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 8/30/02 5:18:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >leonmaurer@aol.com writes: > ><< Since consciousness and its evolution is the bugaboo of science but well > understood by theosophy, I thought you all might be interested in this recent > dialogue on the Journal of Consciousness Study online forum, that argues a > view of consciousness and evolution that's perfectly consistent with the > teachings of Cosmogenesis in the Secret Doctrine. > > Lenny >> >================================================= >This may sound off the beaten path but have we a scentific way of going >from the physical to the astral plane via "reasonable" jargon that could be >understood? What does that mean? From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sun Sep 01 05:09:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 12:09:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 3685 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 12:09:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 12:09:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.66) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 12:09:28 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.142] by n11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2002 12:09:28 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 12:09:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: What is the link to this "forum" ? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <153.135b45d5.2aa31f93@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1043 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.169.18 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach "Journal of Consciousness Study online forum" ? Brian: There is no such forum in existence. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 08/31/02 10:32:03 AM, Nisk98114@a... writes: > > >In a message dated 8/30/02 5:18:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >leonmaurer@a... writes: > > > ><< Since consciousness and its evolution is the bugaboo of science but well > > understood by theosophy, I thought you all might be interested in this > recent > > dialogue on the Journal of Consciousness Study online forum, that argues a > > view of consciousness and evolution that's perfectly consistent with the > > teachings of Cosmogenesis in the Secret Doctrine. > > > > Lenny >> > >============================================= ==== > >This may sound off the beaten path but have we a scentific way of going > >from the physical to the astral plane via "reasonable" jargon that could be > >understood? > > What does that mean? From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sun Sep 01 05:35:56 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 12:35:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 32092 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 12:35:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 12:35:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.82) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 12:35:56 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.153] by n26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2002 12:35:56 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 12:35:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re: The Secret Doctrine as religious belief. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <72.21cd06b1.2aa31e87@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 191 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.169.18 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach In methaphysics each text means something different. See:"The Blackwell Guide to Metaphysics." Brian From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sun Sep 01 06:25:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 13:25:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 92749 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 13:25:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 13:25:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.69) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 13:25:48 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.174] by n14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2002 13:25:48 -0000 Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 13:25:44 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brian wrote: "There is no such forum in existence." Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 201 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.233 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell brian-muehlbach.com wrote: >"Journal of Consciousness Study online forum" ? > >Brian: There is no such forum in existence. Really? So what is this? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jcs-online/ From dhyana@web.de Sun Sep 01 06:29:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 13:29:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 77808 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 13:29:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 13:29:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 13:29:45 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g81DTes14219 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 15:29:40 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captain56c8k5n (cppp-150.blinx.de [62.96.222.150]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g81DTai14164 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 15:29:36 +0200 Message-ID: <002001c251bb$a10ad0d0$96de603e@captain56c8k5n> To: References: <4.2.2.20020829002006.00aae990@mail.gbronline.com> <003a01c24ff7$bc87fba0$ecde603e@captain56c8k5n> <3D6FA523.2C2E86F@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Concerning HPB's UnpublishedMaterial Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 21:11:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.150 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Bart: A hell of a lot of people spoke against Leadbeater, and it was Leadbeater who got thrown out. Steiner did more than speak against them; he tried to throw out people from his Branch of the TS if they were followers of Krishnamurti, in clear violation of the 1st Object. Frank: Only the half of the truth. I am not in agreement with Steiner in many cases, esp. his corruption of the doctrines, but why don't you mention that BEFORE Steiner did what you write it was Annie Besant who forced Steiner's members to join the Order of the Star of the East, which is a double violation of the TS rules as this order supported clearly the backward and degenerated judeo-christian worldview of having blind faith in a messias you thinks for us instead of the theosophical concept of HPB.: to make the people free. In other words the actions of Annie Besant were clearly black magic of the worst kind, a disruption of the TS from within and Steiner as GS had the right (and the theosophical duty!) to protect his members against that sentimental-emotional-religious counter program to produce a soulless slave race. Bart: I have found that Radha in person is a different face than she is in public. In public, she preaches tolerance, but in private, she allows Frank: Rofl. Typical Orwell newspeak. What you and Radha call "tolerance" is to me the highest intolerance. What you call brotherhood is to me the antithesis of brotherhood. And that is the kernel of the black magic Adyar system (which I was able to watch for one week including Radha Burnier): The replace of theosophical terms with a new, twisted content. If Radha Burnier really were tolerant in the original sense of the word - which includes responisbility - she would had not allowed such a one week summer school which she attended in Berlin without showing a sign of disagreement. Bart: Radha Burnier is another case entirely. Even if her motives are 100% pure, her autocratic demeanor puts off many members of the Theosophical Society. In particular, her abuse of her power to unilaterally dissolve sections (I say abuse, as she refuses to give her reasons for doing so, making them suspect) has been particularly damaging. Her writings are exemplary; it would probably be a good idea for her to actually READ them... Frank: Notoriously only such members are attacked which have HPB.: as their basic. She heard for one week all thehe pseudo theosophical new age trash lecturers at the Berlin summer school without threading them with expulsion... In plain words: What Í have seem for one week was purely black magic. Standing before Radha Burnier I did not feel any higher atmosphere which gave me the impression that there is a chela of one or another degree before me. On the contrary, I felt just the opposite. Bart: I still maintain (quite publicly) that being a member of the LCC clergy and a member of the E.S. at the same time is hypocrisy, and have stated Frank: Agreed. As long a backward organization like the LCC has its church on the Adyar HQ grounds HPB and her teachers will not return to Adyar as she once wrote. The 2002 Berlin Summer School with Radha Burnier was a clear proof that neither HPB.: nor her teachers ever returned to that pseudo tolerant sect since 1885. From rpouncy@attbi.com Sun Sep 01 06:40:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: rpouncy@attbi.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 13:40:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 90492 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 13:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 13:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sccrmhc01.attbi.com) (204.127.202.61) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 13:40:53 -0000 Received: from movies ([24.130.126.133]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020901134052.GBWD11061.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@movies> for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 13:40:52 +0000 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Missing Links and Evolution Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 06:37:03 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal From: "Richard Pouncy" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=108372510 X-Yahoo-Profile: rpouncy99 Good Morning Dallas: I really appreciate and enjoy your enlightening messages. May I ask if you have an archive of the Ocean of Theosophy Questions and Answers that I may have access to? Thank you. Richard Pouncy -----Original Message----- From: dalval14@earthlink.net [mailto:dalval14@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 7:41 PM To: AA-Dal Subject: Theos-World Missing Links and Evolution Aug 31 2002 Dear Friends: The following is of importance in understanding the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY chapter on Evolution' These are some answers made by Robert Crosbie to a OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY class ------------------------ 15 CHAPTER 15 CHAPTER XV DIFFERENTIATION OF SPECIES----MISSING LINKS ULTIMATE origin of man not discoverable. Man not derived from a single pair, nor from the animals. Seven races of men appeared simultaneously on the globe. They are now amalgamated and will differentiate. The Anthropoid Apes. Their origin. They came from man. They are the descendants of off spring from unnatural union in the third and fourth rounds. The Delayed Races. The secret books on the question. Human features of apes accounted for. The lower kingdoms from other planets. Their differentiation by intelligent interference by the Dhyanis. The midway point of evolution. Astral forms of old rounds solidified in physical rounds. Missing Links, what they are and why Science cannot discover them. The aim of Nature in all this work. Q. If scientists will admit the existence of the astral plane, would they not be able to make great strides in their investigations A. Unfortunately, those scientists of the present day who do admit it relate it only to post-mortem existence. With them, it is a mere sentimental consideration. If they would give the astral plane true scientific consideration, they would discover a great many truths. They will never understand evolution, for instance, until they admit the astral plane, as all the "missing links" are to be found there. Q. In what state of matter do the monads from the fanner chain begin work on this chain? p.198 A. They begin in the first or highest state of matter, but that first state is quite different from the subsequent states. It is a state of amalgamation which pertains to Globe I of the earth chain in the first round, and in the early part of the second round. Then begins a differentiation. All the kingdoms begin their work along the lines they had been following on the moon. Condensation begins and consequently the first solidification of the human form also begins here. Q. Why do we find the fossil relics of mammals, and not of man? A. The mammals are caught, as it were, in the solidification. Fossils are the real astral forms. Q. Is "the alteration of the forms" by the Dhyanis, spoken of on page 132, done by thought? A. Certainly. With knowledge and wisdom comes the power to add to, or subtract from, any given form, and this is done chiefly in the astral period of evolution. The kingdoms coming over to the earth chain would remain just what they were on the moon, if it were not for the beings who have become perfected spiritually, intellectually, and physically, and who guide the whole evolution. They map out the field, as it were. The lower kingdoms begin their work as such, with no connection between them, and no touch with the higher beings. They are all working for themselves, on their own basis. Then comes the time when the whole evolutionary scheme is brought into tune through the forms of the higher beings. When once all the kingdoms have become fully amalgamated, then comes solidification, and the beginning of the general earth cycle. Q. Are the organs of perception formed by consciousness A. They could not be formed in any other way. They do not make themselves. They are evolutions. p.199 We must remember that the seven classes of beings who deserted the moon as a worked-out planet, so far as they were concerned, had their own organic forms, and carried forward the type of humanity. They represented the humanity of the moon, and the highest expression, according to the class, of all the other classes. All were in the finer state of matter. The seven classes work first each in its own way, that is, there is a separation into classes; then with the guidance of the higher classes, they come to work together, that is, there is a gradual amalgamation. Finally, comes perceptive differentiation, that is, each to its own class again, plus all it has gained from the other classes. Thus Consciousness progresses, by contact with others and spreading the knowledge of the whole. Q. What is meant in the last paragraph of the chapter by "inorganic material"? A. We must remember that the Master in talking to us uses the words with which we are familiar, such terms as are in common use among scientific men. All Their teaching declares that there is nothing unconscious, and matter may be inorganic only in the sense that it does not have the same organs of perception which other life has. So, here it is not meant that the power of consciousness is not present in "inert material", which is "inorganic" only to our perception, and "inert", as compared with the power of thought and action possessed by the higher kingdoms. Q. Is there, in reality, any sharp line of demarcation between the vegetable and the animal? The line of demarcation may be observed in the power of locomotion. The vegetables do not move about consciously. When they have their own motive power in any given element, they are no longer classed as vegetables. They come into the animal kingdom. Q. Is there any object in evolution? p.200 A. Intelligence is always reaching out, and it makes its own object. It is its own object. And that object is unattainable, because that which is itself is unattainable. We can never encompass our own consciousness, no matter what we might be able to do on this or on ten thousand other planets. Q. Please explain the meaning here: "The varieties of character and capacity which subsequently appear in man's history are the forthcoming of the variations which were induced in the Egos in other and long anterior periods of evolution upon other chains of globes." A. It means that all exhibitions of the power of knowledge, or progress, or qualities are the coming out in man of qualities and powers acquired long, long ago. It is conditions which make possible their coming out. If we were conscious, as in fact we were, when we began this earth, we must have had inherent all those qualities that we now possess. They have been added to and changed, but the qualities were there. We simply make the conditions wherein the qualities may manifest. According to this chapter, let us bear in mind the fact that we have come down the stairs of seven grades of substance, and that each grade of substance has been formed by the beings operating in the previous grades of substance. Q. What is meant by the moment of choice for humanity as a whole? A. It is the old story in the Bible of the separation of the sheep from the goats. The time must come in the progress of humanity when there are two divisions,-that of the right-hand path, and that of the left, or, when, as the Secret Doctrine says, one part of humanity goes north, and the other south. Beings of the same kind move by them selves. When that division comes, there are many earthly cataclysms which serve to make physical disruptions of humanity, such as the disappearance of old continents, and the establishment of new ones. p.201 The moment of choice exists all the time for every individual. In that moment he may take any path but when the general moment of choice comes, he takes the path to which he has become addicted by his nature and disposition. We are constantly following the line of separateness, or of unity, choosing one way or the other, and the time must come when the differences between those who take the right-hand path, and those who take the left, are so great that there is no possible conjunction between them. Q. On page 730, it reads: With these the later Atlanteans renewed the sin of the "Mindless"-this time with full responsibility. What makes the responsibility? A. The Atlanteans of the Fourth Race were Manasic beings, and, in repeating what was done in the Third Race by the "Mindless Men", incurred full karmic responsibility, which, as the Chapter states, will have to be worked out at a very much later period than now. The mass of men will have to meet this karma in its full strength, but for individuals the opportunity is always present of drawing away from the mass karma, of paying our debts, as it were, as we go along, and coming out from among those who will not. If we fulfill our whole duty along the lines that the Masters have pointed out, it will necessarily follow at the time of separation that we shall not meet the full destructive karma which must come upon those who have taken the other side. For they will meet with a destruction of all their works and begin over again in the new evolution. Q. Then they will not have in the new evolution the benefit of their past knowledge? They lose the power. They may not lose the disposition. Yet they have the power to change the disposition, and they have help in the fact that they p.202 are thrown together with other beings of a different disposition in the period of amalgamation. Beings with the proper kind of attributes are there, and they have the opportunity of the example. Q. Why is it that this earth has but one moon while Jupiter has four. A. If we take a moon to mean a deserted planet, we could imagine a period in the evolution of a planet when there might be rapid births, as we might say, several kama rupas remaining instead of only one. Our moon is a kama rupa of the former earth; the four moons of Jupiter are likewise kama rupas. Q. Does the term 'traces" refer to the forms or to the Egos? A. It refers to the forms. Consciousness evolves its own form as It sees the necessity, and arrives at its own particular degree of intelligence. Now, there are seven degrees, or hierarchies, of intelligence. To which hierarchy he tends would depend upon the kind of evolution chosen, or upon the basis of thought and action taken by the Ego. He is really using all the hierarchies in his inner and outer sheaths, or bodies. Q. Then we have to make our various sheaths homogeneous? A. Consideration of our septenary nature should help us on this question. There is no form of nature, however low, that has not now present with it the homogeneous state. The homogeneous state is behind and within every form. It would follow, then, that we are homogeneous ourselves, in that respect, and so are in contact with the homogeneous state in everything in nature. It is through that homogeneity that we can know and understand nature, because there we are in contact with any given point. All the processes in every direction from that point can be found, whether they be those of a sun, of a planet, of a plant, an animal, or of a human being. p.203 Q. Might it be said, then, that the ultimate end of man is the realization of his own nature? A. To use a term, we may say that "the ultimate end" is the realization of man's own immortal, eternal nature. We reach that realization only through experience, through contact of almost every kind, but we have to see that we are not the contacts, nor all of them put together, nor are we the experience gained by the contacts. Man can not realize his immortal nature until he sees that he, as Perceiver, is absolutely separate and non-identified with all that he goes through. None of these perceptions are himself. He looks at them all, experiences from them, uses them as a basis for further action, gets results, good or bad, from them; but He is none of them. Q. What is the meaning of the word "Nature", as used by the Master in the closing paragraph of the chapter? A. In this particular sentence of the Master, written in reply to a scientific thinker in India, He used the term as the scientist would use it, but ac cording to the philosophy, Nature does not consciously prefer anything, because there is nothing to prefer, and there is no Nature, of itself. "Nature" means merely the aggregation of an interdependence and inter-relation of all beings. It is a term for the perception of the inter-relation and inter-connection between beings and the force that springs from them; it is an aggregation of the effects of all the forces set in motion by intelligent beings of different degrees. So, we may not imagine that "Nature" is something which exists outside of mankind. Q. By what process is Consciousness developed through the different races? p204 A. The philosophy shows that Consciousness is not developed; Consciousness always is. It is intelligence which is developed in different ways, in different degrees of substance, on different planes of being. The intelligence gained is an understanding of externalities in their relation to Consciousness itself. After the completion of the rounds of any globe, the intelligence that has been gained in every kingdom is what remains as the type for the next planet. This acquired intelligence is the basis of the Archetypal World, in which types are formulated; in which, let us say with reference to this earth, all the intelligence gained on the moon is formulated, in which all the various degrees of intelligence are contained and are existent before the world is formed. When the day for manifestation comes again, and when the dawn appears, then each form of intelligence differentiates and moves forward until it reaches that state where it can manifest on the basis already gained in the past evolution. So, it is Consciousness first, last, and all the time at the root of all manifestation. Always the Perceiver is behind every form. 1 is learned in regard to externalities or any instrument is the amount of intelligence gained, and as that intelligence increases it becomes the basis on which better instruments are formed. Q. Are the seven races each seven-principled? A. Certainly; everything is seven-principled. Q. Then, only one or two principles were fully developed in the earth races? A. Let us look at it this way. The Egos-Atma Buddhi-Manas--have the septenary basis in them selves, but they work with other grades of intelligence lower than themselves. They existed as Egos, but their work was with the various types which constituted their physical expressions, and that work was done on the seven-principled basis. To illustrate. 1 now have a physical body, but there was no physical body in those earliest races. What was to be worked out was not then present. p.205 The principles were in embryo, or latent, until the seven- principled basis was brought to bear upon what ever bodies were to be evolved during the process of the world growth. The body itself, as now evolved and constituted, has its seven divisions and is the lowest principle. Q. As seven-principled beings, were their bodies of the same general type. A. Yes, for differentiation had not then begun. When differentiation does proceed, however, it is in a septenary way-one principle evolving from the other, one principle following the other. Let us say, then, there was only one principle, but the possible differentiations were seven. >From that highest principle the second principle was evolved; from these two, the third; from the third, the fourth, and so on. As a matter of fact, there is just one Consciousness in all of us, and there is just one highest form for all of us, which might be called homogeneous matter; with these two in conjunction the septenary division goes on. Q. Why did the seven races appear at the same time? A. There is a septenary division as soon as differentiation occurs. All the classes of Egos that were self-conscious at the conclusion of the moon's cycle differentiated into seven classes, or degrees, as did all the other classes of beings connected with that evolution. Together these constitute the seven great hierarchies of being, which furnish the Ego his seven classes of instruments, for we are connected with those hierarchies through our instruments. Q. Mr. Judge says: "By methods known to themselves (the Dhyanis) and to the Great Lodge they work on the forms so brought over, and by adding here, taking away there, and often altering, they gradually transform by such alteration and addition the p.206 kingdoms of nature as well as the gradually forming gross body of man". Why could not this transformation be left to the natural impulse of the kingdoms? A. The differentiation of the animals and other species began and was carried on to a certain point within their experience. But that experience is limited. Hence, at the point of that limitation, intelligent interference from a mind or mass of minds is absolutely necessary, if old types are to be changed for better types. If old types remained, there would be no external progress, and no better instruments would be brought about. Intelligence must be active to produce evolution. Q. Is not intelligent interference going on now? A. Of course, it is. How did Luther Burbank produce the spineless cactus? First, he found a cactus with very few spines, and obtained seeds from it. From the cactus grown out of that seed he took one with the least spines and continued to work out the elimination of the spines. There, human intelligence was brought to bear upon that cactus-its forces used to produce quite another variety-the spineless cactus. ================================================= Best wishes, Dallas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From Nisk98114@aol.com Sun Sep 01 07:18:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 14:18:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 30327 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 14:18:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 14:18:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 14:18:28 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id r.12.24aff52b (4402) for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 10:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <12.24aff52b.2aa37bb0@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 10:18:24 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Consciousness - What it is To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 87 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 In a message dated 9/1/02 3:45:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, leonmaurer@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 08/31/02 10:32:03 AM, Nisk98114@aol.com writes: > > >In a message dated 8/30/02 5:18:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >leonmaurer@aol.com writes: > > > ><< Since consciousness and its evolution is the bugaboo of science but well > > > understood by theosophy, I thought you all might be interested in this > recent > > dialogue on the Journal of Consciousness Study online forum, that argues a > > > view of consciousness and evolution that's perfectly consistent with the > > teachings of Cosmogenesis in the Secret Doctrine. > > > > Lenny >> > >================================================= > >This may sound off the beaten path but have we a scentific way of going > >from the physical to the astral plane via "reasonable" jargon that could be > >understood? > > What does that mean? ======================================================= Since most of us seem to be more "into" the material these days. What links could be provided for us to get a handle on a "bridge" between the physical and the astral upadhi? If we are to "return unto the Father", surely we must begin at the bottom of the mountain and ascend to the first plateau by means of knowledge. And later, ascend to the second , such as co-ordinate. Starting with the consubstantial? The overall hypothesis is great but "the first step seems to be the most important one on a thousand mile journey". How can all the theorem help us to take that "first step"? ============================================================ From Nisk98114@aol.com Sun Sep 01 08:09:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 15:09:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 64894 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 15:09:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 15:09:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d09.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.41) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 15:09:17 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id r.fe.1d335e02 (4402) for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 11:09:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 11:09:13 EDT Subject: A theory.... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 87 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 I must say at the outset that i have precious little to support this theory , just being a plain citizen and all but... ========================================================== >From Dallas, Velikovsky in WORLD IN COLLISION (1940s - Macmillan) had something similar to offer. but he attributed cataclysms to another planet (Venus ?) that passed by. Far-fetched. Still the geological and paleontological evidence is there. ====================================== We might want to substitute Mercury for Venus since science has long claimed that there is a piece "missing" from that planet. Make sense? That would seem to also account for an "artificially"? brought on catastrophe during the said time period that pieces of Mercury (but not all, so far as i can think this through) crashed to Earth but the main body continued on past and is , perhaps, still making "returns"? to this planet every now and then {Karmic Law, of course) in the shape of our now thought of as (speaking as theory, of course) ?debris?(scientists today , shudder at the thought of such a body coming toward Earth) and would certainly bring on an almost immediate ice age as well as , maybe , wobble the earth, a little? and as we know Nature (Universe) , as well is pretty "quick" LOL to restore things back to what they were and so we had our , so called "regular" occurences of Fire and Water destructions along with this "albeit strange" occurence and that MAY explain why all these facts that people and scientists offer , for the most part, are right but don't seem to agree with one another , UNLESS, a central nexus was there , but, even if agreed upon by scientists it is almost guaranteed that they would fail , most certainly, to attribute such a monumental event to, perhaps? "certain" knowlege and mastery of such immense occult proportions as to be pooh poohed today. What i may be suggesting is , intentional?, maybe, this " letting loose" of a piece of a planet to , say , squelch the pipe dreams of those wicked ones. Maybe not as "far-fetched" as one might think. The Universe is a interlocking mechanism as we well know and who knows what "protections" are built into the system and who can disable or enable that system. Why, hah, you'd have to be omniscient or something(chuckle). Let me know what you think. From dhyana@web.de Sun Sep 01 10:19:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 17:19:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 95938 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 17:19:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 17:19:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 17:19:14 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g81HJ9S01612 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 19:19:09 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captain56c8k5n (cppp-176.blinx.de [62.96.222.176]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g81HJ7i01577 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 19:19:07 +0200 Message-ID: <02dd01c251db$b1530190$96de603e@captain56c8k5n> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Secret Doctrine as religious belief. Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 16:51:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.176 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Have YOU any evidence that man derives from apes? Perhaps some people are really chimps, but surely not all men. Frank >No there is no evidence for that. --- In theos-talk@y..., "Frank Reitemeyer" wrote: > Brigitte: > You mean there is evidence that supports SD creation myth that man > does not derrive from chimps ? > > Frank: > So do - but not all. From dhyana@web.de Sun Sep 01 10:20:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 17:20:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 50572 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 17:20:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 17:20:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 17:20:24 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g81HKJ501900 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 19:20:19 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captain56c8k5n (cppp-176.blinx.de [62.96.222.176]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g81HJXi01793 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 19:19:34 +0200 Message-ID: <02e301c251db$c13fd970$96de603e@captain56c8k5n> To: References: <4.2.2.20020829002006.00aae990@mail.gbronline.com> <003a01c24ff7$bc87fba0$ecde603e@captain56c8k5n> Subject: The assassination of Rudolf Steiner Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 19:15:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Sender-IP: 62.96.222.176 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit can be found for German readers under: www.lohengrin-verlag.de/Artikel/Vergiftung.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samblo@cs.com Sun Sep 01 12:00:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 19:00:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 18803 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 19:00:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 19:00:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 19:00:02 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id r.46.2cf62027 (4539) for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 14:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <46.2cf62027.2aa3bdad@cs.com> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 14:59:57 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World A theory.... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Dallas, If you can find them in your Library or otherwise I was impressed with the Research and Findings of Hans Schindler Bellamy and Peter Allen whose team put forward a decipherment of the Tiahuanaco remnants in the following works: "The Calendar of Tiahaunaco" (A Measuring System of the Oldest Civilization) Faber & Faber Ltd, 1956 "The Great Idol of Tiahuanaco" , 1959 "Built Before the Flood" (The Problem of the Tiahuanacan Ruins), 1943? "The Atlantis Myth", 1948? "A Life History of Earth" , 1951? "Moons Myths and Man" 1936 "In the Beginning God", 1945 "The Book of Revelation is History", 1942 Key Author search is "Hans Bellamy" What is described by the ignegmatic Glyphs of Tiahuanaco ? According to the findings of Bellamy and Allen and their team a description of the "Capture" and across time a shifting satellite in unstable capture cycle which eventually is orbiting the Earth at very close proximity of 5.9 Earth Radii and reaches the Roche Limit and in Veliskovskyian fashion is torn apart like an onion raining catastrophic contents upon the terrified inhabitants of our planet indelibly imprinted forever in the common universal memory of Mankind. To the eye of the observer on the ground back in that time the "Moon" in Captivity appeared as a full 40 degree's of the sky raging, flashing forth erupted thermo technic matter , a veritable Fiery Dragon venting it's rage upon us. In their works are fold-out delineation's detailing the sinusoidal paths of the Sun and the Earth's New Moon showing the period of orbital rotation as given by the Glyphs of "The Gate of the Sun". Bellamy posits that the Earth prior to this capture was asatellitic and had no Moon then, and that the tides and climate were much different from today. It well may be that our current Moon is the reconstituted lighter elements of the previous Moon which remained in orbital proximity of the Earth's influence and reaggregated and compacted by Gravity minus the Core which when freed during the cataclysm and being the kinetic prime element escaped into space within our Solar system. Now where are there known to me Glyphs like found at Tiahuanaco. Posnansky in his Benchmark Work "Tiahauanco-Cradle of American Man" , 1948 publishes the Second Middle Period of Tiahauanco at 15,450 BC. One could easily spend 2 years on just the first 2 Books I listed above which detail repletely the complex genius of the Tiahuanacan Cultures unique system. John From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Sep 01 14:31:02 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 1 Sep 2002 21:31:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 52111 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2002 21:31:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2002 21:31:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m01.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Sep 2002 21:31:01 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id r.166.13234248 (30950) for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 17:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <166.13234248.2aa3e111@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 17:30:57 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World What is the link to this "forum" ? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Before going off with half cocked opinions, as usual -- maybe you should Check with the "Journal of Consciousness Study" at: http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/, or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/ and search for the "JCS-online" e-mail forum. You might find in their archives some interesting dialogs over the past ten years with accredited scientists of many disciplines. Hope you enjoy reading them and finding out how much science doesn't know about the nature of at least half the reality in the universe -- namely, consciousness and evolution. Even though this heavily subscribed forum is moderated and accepts only four letters per day, it welcomes contributions by every intellectual discipline. Apropos, you shouldn't be amazed by the lack of "historians" and "theologians" -- who would never dare to argue with "scientists" about such "fact" or "logic" dependent subjects. However, my letters are always published, and, so far, in over ten years, no one has been able to punch a hole in my theosophical metaphysically and scientifically consistent theories. These letters, incidentally, are planned to be published in my book "On the Threshold of a New Science and Technology" (if I ever get around to finishing it :-). In fact, lately, with the gradual acceptance of Superstring/M-brane "theories of everything" -- that more or less confirm theosophical metaphysics as well as ABC -- there have been much softer counter arguments on the "JCS" forum, as well as on the "Science & Consciousness Review," "Quantum Mind," "Psyche," and "Mind-Brain" forums that I participate in. In fact, many scientist's, when their theories are challenged, refuse to respond -- probably because they haven''t anything to say. :-) Or, like some others who have come around to agree with my view, they are afraid to respond publicly -- since their "peer reviewable" academic credibility and/or jobs depend on them following the "party lines" of conventional academic science. So, thanks for giving me the opportunity of publicly confirming my veracity, along with HPB's, as well as the "truths" of theosophical metaphysical science -- which are entirely consistent with cutting edge, multidimensional physical scientific truth that contradicts or adds further theosophically consistent "facts" to conventional modern scientific "theories" -- as HPB predicted would happen around this time in history. LHM http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html In a message dated 09/01/02 8:10:06 AM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: > "Journal of Consciousness Study online forum" ? > >Brian: There is no such forum in existence. > > Brian > >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: >> >> In a message dated 08/31/02 10:32:03 AM, Nisk98114@a... writes: >> >> >In a message dated 8/30/02 5:18:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >> >leonmaurer@a... writes: >> > >> > Since consciousness and its evolution is the bugaboo of science >> > but well understood by theosophy, I thought you all might be interested in >> > this recent dialogue on the Journal of Consciousness Study online forum, >> > that argues a view of consciousness and evolution that's perfectly >> > consistent with the teachings of Cosmogenesis in the Secret Doctrine. >> > >> > Lenny >> >> (snip) From brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com Sun Sep 01 19:09:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 2 Sep 2002 02:09:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 66816 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 02:09:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2002 02:09:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 02:09:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.182] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2002 02:09:12 -0000 Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 02:09:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World What is the link to this "forum" ? Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <166.13234248.2aa3e111@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4179 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "brianmuehlbach" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.170.43 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=121273553 X-Yahoo-Profile: brianmuehlbach Re."the Journal of Consciousness Study online forum, that argues a view of consciousness and evolution that's perfectly consistent with the teachings of Cosmogenesis in the Secret Doctrine." The "search Archive" at "JCS-online" shows 0=zero messages containing the word Theosophy. 0=zero messages containing a refernce to even Blavatsky. Brian --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > Before going off with half cocked opinions, as usual -- maybe you should > Check with the "Journal of Consciousness Study" at: > http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/, or go to http://groups.yahoo.com/ and search > for the "JCS-online" e-mail forum. You might find in their archives some > interesting dialogs over the past ten years with accredited scientists of > many disciplines. Hope you enjoy reading them and finding out how much > science doesn't know about the nature of at least half the reality in the > universe -- namely, consciousness and evolution. > > Even though this heavily subscribed forum is moderated and accepts only four > letters per day, it welcomes contributions by every intellectual discipline. > Apropos, you shouldn't be amazed by the lack of "historians" and > "theologians" -- who would never dare to argue with "scientists" about such > "fact" or "logic" dependent subjects. However, my letters are always > published, and, so far, in over ten years, no one has been able to punch a > hole in my theosophical metaphysically and scientifically consistent > theories. These letters, incidentally, are planned to be published in my book > "On the Threshold of a New Science and Technology" (if I ever get around to > finishing it :-). > > In fact, lately, with the gradual acceptance of Superstring/M- brane "theories > of everything" -- that more or less confirm theosophical metaphysics as well > as ABC -- there have been much softer counter arguments on the "JCS" forum, > as well as on the "Science & Consciousness Review," "Quantum Mind," "Psyche," > and "Mind-Brain" forums that I participate in. In fact, many scientist's, > when their theories are challenged, refuse to respond -- probably because > they haven''t anything to say. :-) Or, like some others who have come around > to agree with my view, they are afraid to respond publicly -- since their > "peer reviewable" academic credibility and/or jobs depend on them following > the "party lines" of conventional academic science. > > So, thanks for giving me the opportunity of publicly confirming my veracity, > along with HPB's, as well as the "truths" of theosophical metaphysical > science -- which are entirely consistent with cutting edge, multidimensional > physical scientific truth that contradicts or adds further theosophically > consistent "facts" to conventional modern scientific "theories" -- as HPB > predicted would happen around this time in history. > > LHM > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisan s.guild/einstein.html > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans. guild/chakrafield.html > > In a message dated 09/01/02 8:10:06 AM, brianmuehlbach@y... writes: > > > "Journal of Consciousness Study online forum" ? > > > >Brian: There is no such forum in existence. > > > > Brian > > > >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > >> > >> In a message dated 08/31/02 10:32:03 AM, Nisk98114@a... writes: > >> > >> >In a message dated 8/30/02 5:18:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >> >leonmaurer@a... writes: > >> > > >> > Since consciousness and its evolution is the bugaboo of science > >> > but well understood by theosophy, I thought you all might be interested > in > >> > this recent dialogue on the Journal of Consciousness Study online forum, > >> > that argues a view of consciousness and evolution that's perfectly > >> > consistent with the teachings of Cosmogenesis in the Secret Doctrine. > >> > > >> > Lenny >> > >> > (snip) From micforster@yahoo.com Sun Sep 01 20:26:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: micforster@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 2 Sep 2002 03:26:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 45748 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 03:26:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2002 03:26:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13406.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.64) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 03:26:53 -0000 Message-ID: <20020902032653.54041.qmail@web13406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [129.94.53.91] by web13406.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 01 Sep 2002 20:26:53 PDT Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 20:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World What is the link to this "forum" ? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Mic Forster X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=33972888 X-Yahoo-Profile: micforster the search of ALL scientific and related databases, containing research articles and the like from academics from around the world, yielded ZERO results for Brigitte Muehlegger (Muhlegger). A similar search of the University of Vienna, and an exhaustive search of the Institute of Mathematics, also yielded ZERO results for Brigitte Muehlegger. What is it, exactly, that the University of Vienna, and the people of Austria, is/are paying you to do? If you have so much scientific credibility why is it that you have contributed absolutely nothing to the scientific community? --- brianmuehlbach wrote: > Re."the Journal of Consciousness Study online forum, > that argues a > view of consciousness and evolution that's > perfectly consistent with > the teachings of Cosmogenesis in the Secret > Doctrine." > > > The "search Archive" at "JCS-online" shows > > 0=zero messages containing the word Theosophy. > > 0=zero messages containing a refernce to even > Blavatsky. > > > > Brian > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > > Before going off with half cocked opinions, as > usual -- maybe you > should > > Check with the "Journal of Consciousness Study" > at: > > http://www.zynet.co.uk/imprint/, or go to > http://groups.yahoo.com/ > and search > > for the "JCS-online" e-mail forum. You might find > in their > archives > some > > interesting dialogs over the past ten years with > accredited > scientists of > > many disciplines. Hope you enjoy reading them and > finding out how > much > > science doesn't know about the nature of at least > half the reality > in the > > universe -- namely, consciousness and evolution. > > > > Even though this heavily subscribed forum is > moderated and accepts > only four > > letters per day, it welcomes contributions by > every intellectual > discipline. > > Apropos, you shouldn't be amazed by the lack of > "historians" and > > "theologians" -- who would never dare to argue > with "scientists" > about > such > > "fact" or "logic" dependent subjects. However, my > letters are > always > > published, and, so far, in over ten years, no one > has been able to > punch a > > hole in my theosophical metaphysically and > scientifically > consistent > > theories. These letters, incidentally, are planned > to be published > in my > book > > "On the Threshold of a New Science and Technology" > (if I ever get > around to > > finishing it :-). > > > > In fact, lately, with the gradual acceptance of > Superstring/M- > brane "theories > > of everything" -- that more or less confirm > theosophical > metaphysics > as well > > as ABC -- there have been much softer counter > arguments on > the "JCS" forum, > > as well as on the "Science & Consciousness > Review," "Quantum > Mind," "Psyche," > > and "Mind-Brain" forums that I participate in. In > fact, many > scientist's, > > when their theories are challenged, refuse to > respond -- probably > because > > they haven''t anything to say. :-) Or, like some > others who have > come > around > > to agree with my view, they are afraid to respond > publicly -- since > their > > "peer reviewable" academic credibility and/or jobs > depend on them > following > > the "party lines" of conventional academic > science. > > > > So, thanks for giving me the opportunity of > publicly confirming my > veracity, > > along with HPB's, as well as the "truths" of > theosophical > metaphysical > > science -- which are entirely consistent with > cutting edge, > multidimensional > > physical scientific truth that contradicts or adds > further > theosophically > > consistent "facts" to conventional modern > scientific "theories" -- > as > HPB > > predicted would happen around this time in > history. > > > > LHM > > > http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ABC_bw.html > > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisan > s.guild/einstein.html > > > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans. > guild/chakrafield.html > > > > In a message dated 09/01/02 8:10:06 AM, > brianmuehlbach@y... > writes: > > > > > "Journal of Consciousness Study online forum" ? > > > > > >Brian: There is no such forum in existence. > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > >--- In theos-talk@y..., leonmaurer@a... wrote: > > >> > > >> In a message dated 08/31/02 10:32:03 AM, > Nisk98114@a... > writes: > > >> > > >> >In a message dated 8/30/02 5:18:38 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > > >> >leonmaurer@a... writes: > > >> > > > >> > Since consciousness and its evolution is the > bugaboo of > science > > >> > but well understood by theosophy, I thought > you all might be > interested > > in > > >> > this recent dialogue on the Journal of > Consciousness Study > online forum, > > >> > that argues a view of consciousness and > evolution that's > perfectly > > >> > consistent with the teachings of Cosmogenesis > in the Secret > Doctrine. > > >> > > > >> > Lenny >> > > >> > > (snip) > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Sep 01 21:31:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 2 Sep 2002 04:31:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 800 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 04:31:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2002 04:31:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 04:31:54 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id r.103.1ac3e10c (3964) for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 00:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <103.1ac3e10c.2aa443b1@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 00:31:45 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World What is the link to this "forum" ? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 What have labels or personalities got to do with scientific reasoning or logical discussion? Did anyone ever say that theosophy was discussed or Blavatsky referred to on scientific consciousness study forums? My view of consciousness and evolution argued or discussed on those forums is based solely on the theory of ABC and other scientific theories such Superstring/M-brane, relativity, quantum field, quantum electro-chromodynamics, etc. -- much of which (although limited in scope) are consistent with theosophical metaphysics. I only mention those comparisons or consistencies on Theosophical forums. On the scientific consciousness study forums, I am careful to let my arguments (about universal involution and evolution, based on zero-point origins, coadunate, coenergetic fields of varying substantiality, and fundamental laws) speak for themselves... And, try NOT to make non-sequitur references, refer to irrelevant authorities, select quotes out of context, use fallacious logic, or not specifically qualify "guesses" and "opinions." If you read the JCS-online letters I cross posted to this forum, you might comprehend this, and not continue nit picking and making sly innuendoes about your opponent's credibility. But then, since your arguments and assertions are based on those forbidden propaganda techniques, I don't suppose you understand what scientific reasoning or logical discussion is all about. Again, I say, if you wish to discuss these topics intelligently, I suggest you study modern and post modern physics as well as the theosophical metaphysics presented by HPB in the Secret Doctrine, and make the comparisons yourself. Without that knowledge and understanding, other that the possible benefit to theosophists wishing to have a better scientific understanding of theosophical metaphysics, reading your off the wall comments and unfounded opinions about theosophy and HPB, and arguing with you about them -- is a complete waste of all our time. LHM In a message dated 09/01/02 10:09:33 PM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >Re."the Journal of Consciousness Study online forum, that argues a > view of consciousness and evolution that's perfectly consistent with >the teachings of Cosmogenesis in the Secret Doctrine." > > >The "search Archive" at "JCS-online" shows > >0=zero messages containing the word Theosophy. > >0=zero messages containing a refernce to even Blavatsky. From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Sep 01 21:53:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 2 Sep 2002 04:53:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 16317 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 04:53:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2002 04:53:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepb.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.3) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 04:53:00 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a49238.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.56]) by pfepb.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 810E05EE27A for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 06:52:59 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001001c2523b$c87bcd60$3892a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <103.1ac3e10c.2aa443b1@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World What is the link to this "forum" ? Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 06:47:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi all of you, I have difficulties agreeing with you on that Leon. Leon wrote: "Without that knowledge and understanding, other that the possible=20 > benefit to theosophists wishing to have a better scientific understanding= of=20 > theosophical metaphysics, reading your off the wall comments and unfounde= d=20 > opinions about theosophy and HPB, and arguing with you about them -- is a= =20 > complete waste of all our time." My view: Especially your use of the words "all our time" in the above, doesn't fit w= ell for a hardcore Theosophist !=20 PATIENCE is also sometimes giving within theosophical circles etc.. (I could have said: Speak for your self, and don't drag others in to this, = by using the phrase "all our time."). Feel free to do your best on that... from Sufilight with Peace and Love...and some for ever patient rugrats... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 6:31 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World What is the link to this "forum" ? > What have labels or personalities got to do with scientific reasoning or= =20 > logical discussion?=20=20 >=20 > Did anyone ever say that theosophy was discussed or Blavatsky referred to= on=20 > scientific consciousness study forums?=20=20=20 >=20 > My view of consciousness and evolution argued or discussed on those forum= s is=20 > based solely on the theory of ABC and other scientific theories such=20 > Superstring/M-brane, relativity, quantum field, quantum=20 > electro-chromodynamics, etc. -- much of which (although limited in scope)= are=20 > consistent with theosophical metaphysics.=20=20=20 >=20 > I only mention those comparisons or consistencies on Theosophical forums.= On=20 > the scientific consciousness study forums, I am careful to let my argumen= ts=20 > (about universal involution and evolution, based on zero-point origins,=20 > coadunate, coenergetic fields of varying substantiality, and fundamental= =20 > laws) speak for themselves... And, try NOT to make non-sequitur reference= s,=20 > refer to irrelevant authorities, select quotes out of context, use fallac= ious=20 > logic, or not specifically qualify "guesses" and "opinions." If you read= the=20 > JCS-online letters I cross posted to this forum, you might comprehend thi= s,=20 > and not continue nit picking and making sly innuendoes about your opponen= t's=20 > credibility. But then, since your arguments and assertions are based on t= hose=20 > forbidden propaganda techniques, I don't suppose you understand what=20 > scientific reasoning or logical discussion is all about. >=20 > Again, I say, if you wish to discuss these topics intelligently, I sugges= t=20 > you study modern and post modern physics as well as the theosophical=20 > metaphysics presented by HPB in the Secret Doctrine, and make the compari= sons=20 > yourself. Without that knowledge and understanding, other that the possi= ble=20 > benefit to theosophists wishing to have a better scientific understanding= of=20 > theosophical metaphysics, reading your off the wall comments and unfounde= d=20 > opinions about theosophy and HPB, and arguing with you about them -- is a= =20 > complete waste of all our time.=20=20=20 >=20 > LHM >=20 >=20 > In a message dated 09/01/02 10:09:33 PM, brianmuehlbach@yahoo.com writes: >=20 > >Re."the Journal of Consciousness Study online forum, that argues a=20 > > view of consciousness and evolution that's perfectly consistent with > >the teachings of Cosmogenesis in the Secret Doctrine." > > > > > >The "search Archive" at "JCS-online" shows > > > >0=3Dzero messages containing the word Theosophy.=20 > > > >0=3Dzero messages containing a refernce to even Blavatsky. >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Sep 01 23:51:20 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 2 Sep 2002 06:51:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 17992 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 06:51:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2002 06:51:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 06:51:19 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id r.f5.214fa582 (3310) for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 02:51:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 02:51:15 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World What is the link to this "forum" ? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Hi Sufi, Sorry if you took "all our time" to include your time. All it meant to me was reference to all the time wasted by those of us arguing with illogical anti-theosophists with personal axes to grind, and who use specious propaganda techniques to prove their points. Patience has nothing to do with it. Of course, if you learn something new about theosophy based on our counter arguments with such muddle headed theosophy haters, and "possibly benefit" -- I would think you could consider yourself as one of those (hard-core) "theosophists" referred to in the first part of my sentence, rather than those of us whose time is wasted arguing with fools. (But, then, how else are we to ferret out and expose "dugpas" or their agents in out midst? Sometimes, sacrifice is necessary ... So why should we complain? Oh well, we'll just have to bear our burden, put a smile on our face, call a spade a spade, and keep on with the work -- until they expose themselves. And then, we can all go back to interesting and useful theosophical discussion. :-) Best wishes, Leon In a message dated 09/02/02 12:53:49 AM, global-theosophy@adslhome.dk writes: >Hi all of you, > >I have difficulties agreeing with you on that Leon. > >Leon wrote: >"Without that knowledge and understanding, other that the possible >> benefit to theosophists wishing to have a better scientific understanding of >> theosophical metaphysics, reading your off the wall comments and unfounded >> opinions about theosophy and HPB, and arguing with you about them -- >> is a complete waste of all our time." > >My view: >Especially your use of the words "all our time" in the above, doesn't fit >well for a hardcore Theosophist ! > >PATIENCE is also sometimes giving within theosophical circles etc.. > >(I could have said: Speak for your self, and don't drag others in to this, >by using the phrase "all our time."). > >Feel free to do your best on that... > >from >Sufilight with Peace and Love...and some for ever patient rugrats... > From gregory@zeta.org.au Mon Sep 02 01:07:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: gregory@zeta.org.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 2 Sep 2002 08:07:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 94638 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 08:07:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2002 08:07:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailman.zeta.org.au) (203.26.10.16) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 08:07:50 -0000 Received: from [61.8.1.219] (ppp219.dyn1.pacific.net.au [61.8.1.219]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13661 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 08:07:47 GMT Message-Id: <200209020807.IAA13661@mailman.zeta.org.au> Subject: John Cooper's Library and Archives Date: Mon, 2 Sep 02 18:07:49 +1100 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=796991 I am very pleased to be able to announce that a secure and central home has= been found for the extensive library and archives of the late Dr John Coop= er. The collection has been placed with the National Library of Australia i= n Canberra, and will be maintained as a separate specialist collection on T= heosophy and Theosophical history, with the books now including a beautiful= ly designed bookplate organized by the Library. The Library already has som= e smaller collections on the history of Theosophy. Two specialist staff fro= m the Library and I spent several days sorting and packing the collection p= rior to its removal from John=B9s home to Canberra. Interestingly, the coll= ection was finally removed on White Lotus Day! The National Library include= d a substantial feature on this significant acquisition in the latest editi= on of its journal. It will, of course, be some considerable time before the= whole collection is catalogued, but this process has already begun. Dr Bre= ndan French and I will be assisting the Library in the cataloguing of the a= rchival material. The National Library has been most enthusiastic about the= acquisition of such a valuable and extensive specialist collection, and ho= pes that it will serve as the foundation for an expanding collection of mat= erial on Theosophy. John=B9s collection included a very substantial range o= f Theosophical journals, many of them in complete sets. As the journals are= sorted and catalogued, Dr French and I will, where we can, provide copies = of any missing parts from our own collections to facilitate the establishme= nt of complete sets of as many Theosophical journals as possible, and I wil= l no doubt be putting out appeals on this site (and making them to individu= als and organizations as well) where missing parts cannot otherwise be loca= ted. It can be hoped that the National Library of Australia will become (if= it is not already as a result of this acquisition) the major collection of= works related to Theosophy in the southern hemisphere. The great advantage= s of the collection going to the National Library include the fact that cle= ar guarantees have been given regarding the preservation of the collection,= without works being given away, sold or thrown out by arbitrary decision (= as is a major problem with Australian university libraries), that the Natio= nal Library is a secure research collection with minimal risk of loss or th= eft, and that there is a clear commitment to proper and professional conser= vation of the material. This is of particular concern as far as the archive= s and photographs are concerned. The extraordinary generosity of the Cooper= family (who had many opportunities to profit substantially from the commer= cial sale of the collection) has provided a great resource for scholars of = Theosophy and Theosophical history. The Library plans to hold a special ex= hibition of works related to Theosophical history, including some of the mo= st valuable items from John=B9s collection, in the near future. Dr Gregory Tillett From gregory@zeta.org.au Mon Sep 02 01:07:53 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: gregory@zeta.org.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 2 Sep 2002 08:07:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 94682 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 08:07:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2002 08:07:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailman.zeta.org.au) (203.26.10.16) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 08:07:52 -0000 Received: from [61.8.1.219] (ppp219.dyn1.pacific.net.au [61.8.1.219]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13670 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 08:07:50 GMT Message-Id: <200209020807.IAA13670@mailman.zeta.org.au> Subject: John Cooper's work Date: Mon, 2 Sep 02 18:07:52 +1100 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=796991 As the literary executor for the estate of the late Dr John Cooper, I am able to reply to the enquiries regarding the status of his unpublished work on the collected correspondence of H.P. Blavatsky. The first volume, as yet in draft form, remains unpublished. The dispute between the Theosophical Publishing House at Wheaton (or, more accurately, Dr John Algeo) and John's family, remains unresolved since neither Dr Algeo nor his attorney replies to my correspondence. The family is eager to see the work published as John compiled and intended it to be, but has refused to relinquish all editorial control to Dr Algeo (or the TPH). John specifically and deliberately included a clause in his contract with TPH to prevent anyone from engaging in authorized editing, censoring, tampering with or altering the material he had collected. It is the family's position (supported by the advice or attorneys in Australia and the USA) that under the contract this right has now passed (together with ownership of the copyright of the manuscript) to John's beneficiaries. It appears that Dr Algeo argues that, with John's death, all rights now lie with the TPH (i.e. him) and that they/he will edit the work as they see fit without any consultation with the family. Proposals put to Dr Algeo and his attorney in my last letter to resolve this impasse have yet to receive a response. These proposals asked only that any editorial change be approved by the family, and indicated that normal publishers' rights to make stylistic changes or to add explanatory material would not be opposed. The family will not, however, approve the deletion of any material from the original Blavatsky correspondence; it will not object to notes which question the authenticity of material which is genuinely in question. Negotiations are thus proceeding with other publishers to see the first volume put into print, albeit (and undesirably) not within the H.P.B. Collected Writings series. With regard to the material which John collected for subsequent volumes (and which had been collated but was not edited or commented upon prior to his death), the family claims some control only over that material which John collected independently and on his basis of his own research, or material which was specifically given to him (i.e. not given to the TPH or provided by them, or which is already in the public domain). We have offered complete cooperation, including the provision of copies of material, to Dr Algeo and the TPH for the completion of the Collected Correspondence series subject only to (i) the rights referred to with regard to the first volume, and (ii) recognition of the rights to material independently collected. Apart from threats of legal action should the family proceed with publishing the first volume, no response has been received. We would prefer to see the first volume published in the near future by the TPH in the Collected Writings series, and would cooperate in any way possible to facilitate this - BUT the family will not surrender all proprietry rights in and editorial control over John's original work. If Dr Algeo and the TPH have no interest in "tampering" with the original material in a less than honest or scholarly way, I cannot understand why a cooperative and collaborative venture cannot proceed. Having dealt with a number of publishers, I have never faced the rigid and uncooperative approach being taken by the TPH. Dr Gregory Tillett From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Sep 02 06:14:19 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 2 Sep 2002 13:14:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 72200 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 13:14:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2002 13:14:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 13:14:18 -0000 Received: from pool0158.cvx35-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.12.158] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17lr1s-0004JQ-00; Mon, 02 Sep 2002 06:14:09 -0700 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: Atlantis and Polar Shifts Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 06:11:16 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Sept 2 2002 Re: Polar Shifts and Antiquity Dear Friends: Usually our approach to considerations about our earth, its geology and archaeology tend to limit themselves to the PRESENT PHYSICAL APPEARANCE of rocks, strata, and their estimated movements over short or long ages. In The SECRET DOCTRINE, does the matter of change always mean the physical? It is said that the "matter" used in the earlier Rounds, Globes was of a different nature from the physical we see and deal with daily. This ought to make us cautious. ASTRAL is mentioned. We know little about that, except that is said to electro-magnetic, and form the basis ( a kind of lattice work of force fields ?) for the arrangement of the physical molecules and cells into forms we now so easily identify with our waking consciousness. We are also told that "elementals (forces of nature) live in the astral, and depraved human souls called "elementaries" also inhabit that state or condition of substance -- associated closely with their "kama-rupas" (bodies of desire). And behind the "astral" there is the plane, substance and state of the "LIFE-FORCES" (PRANA and JIVA), on which very little is said. ] Then behind that is the KAMA RUPA (or the "form" of the desire-principle") and in one place H P B calls it the grossest and densest of all (S D I 260). Curious. Makes one wonder. Ascending the scale we come to the planning -- the MANAS -- the "thought-producer" -- and beyond that the MONAD ( ATMA/BUDDHI). Earlier in The SECRET DOCTRINE, H P B writes, quoting the Master (S D I 166 center of page -- Mr. Judge refers to this in his article THE EARTH CHAIN OF GLOBES Judge Articles I p. 214...) who was writing to Mr. A. P. Sinnett that the "globes" and their 7-fold nature and substance made them coadunitional with our Earth, but not consubstantial. In other words, they shared the "space" but, being on different planes of action and nature, their SUBSTANCE was different, and we in our present state of consciousness - physical -- could not perceive those. There is a curious and important statement made concerning this in the S D I 527fn "...all the suns are the Kama rupa of akasa an so is ours. It is only when regarded as an individual entity in his own Kingdom that Surya (the sun) is the 7th principle of the great body of MATTER." I mention these points because they indicate that all our considerations should not be relegated solely to the PHYSICAL SIDE OF THINGS. We have much to seek for, and to learn concerning the CAUSATIVE aspect of our physical artifacts. This includes: polar shifts, inversions, continental movements and their appearances and disappearances in the present as in the past.. We need to discover more about the "pole shifts." Much can be discovered and uncovered by going to the INDEX to the S D and tracing what has been taught concerning these ancient historical places and events of our own past, when as spiritual souls, Eternal Pilgrims -- we lived in the bodies provided to us by our Karma at those times. We are in effect reviewing in The SECRET DOCTRINE our own history. As I recall the sidereal (SUN) year covers a period of some 25,868 years. This marks the secular circular movement of the polar orientation as it describes a vast circle in the northern sky constellations. Any good fundamental text book on astronomy gives these details. Change in earth's axis is mentioned in S D II 360. In the past 60 years there has been noticed quite a change, a kind of wandering in the location of the magnetic pole. As an example, in older US cities when the streets and avenues were first laid out 18th and 19th Centuries, they followed the magnetic lines then current. Today the compass shows a different orientation. Finally, when the actual axis of rotation of the Earth was located in the early part of last century (20th), the layout of roads and streets was changed to that axis (of rotation) and the magnetic axis was discarded as a standard. Los Angeles shows this graphically around the Western center of the older section of the city. The orientation of Alvarado and Hoover avenues mark the change clearly. It shows approximately 18 degrees variance. Polar inversions occurred 3 times says the S D -- S D II 353, 360, 368,432-2, 436. Question: are these physical inversions or are they magnetic? The 4th time there was a movement of substance, a change, was in the Atlantis cycle S D II 350, 785-6. Is physical or astral substance meant, or both ? H P B speaks in one place concerning ancient fossils that some represent astral fossils from an earlier Round (3rd). They were caught in the more recent re-consolidation of the Earth's substance out of the astral and into the physical, and now form a part of the geological evidence of the antiquity of evolution. [ S D I 455, II 68fn, 684, 712, 730-1, ] The "circle" described by our wobbly revolutions seems to cover a circle of about 22.5 degrees. Each zodiacal "sign" has a cycle of 2155 years ( 25,686 /12 -- SECRET DOCTRINE I 314, 439fn; II 330, 332, 357, 770 ). It is called a "heavenly measure" S D II 363. Also S D I 439fn, II 770, The present one will end about 16,000 years hence (S D II 331). S D II 785-6 speaks of these changes. Also S D II 332, 356-8, 431, In The SECRET DOCTRINE we find reference to the periodical rising and sinking of continents: S D II 325-353, 144,255, 307, 400fn, 762fn, 603, 787fn. The remnants of the older continents overlap S D II 433fn. The older got "sucked under" :-- S D II 330, 332-3. The age of the various continents is estimated: S D II 606fn. Their sequence is give in S D II p 8. The first continent was called THE IMPERISHABLE SACRED LAND and is now "concealed." (S D II 6, 372fn, 606fn. The second is named the Hyperborean. (S D II 7, 11-12, 274, 606fn.) The third was re-named Lemuria, S D I 439; II 10, 316fn, 324-6, 329, 336, 371-2, The Fourth Atlantis: S D I 369; II 314, 395fn, 762, 787fn, The fifth is America and parts of Europe and Asia Minor SECRET DOCTRINE II 8, 327, 392-402, Well this is a lot to review, Best wishes, Dallas ==================== From amerman@theosophy.net Mon Sep 02 06:17:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: amerman@theosophy.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 2 Sep 2002 13:17:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 54199 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 13:17:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2002 13:17:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hosting-network.com) (66.216.31.1) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 13:17:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 36585 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 13:17:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO Wes) (66.75.65.8) by node1.hosting-network.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 13:17:57 -0000 Message-ID: <004501c25283$3175eac0$08414b42@socal.rr.com> To: Subject: RE: The Secret Doctrine Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 06:18:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Wes Amerman" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=59086689 Brian wrote: < Like Cremo Theosophy claims man comes from some kind of spirirtual golden age (from on high) Cremo calls it "devolution" instead of the modern evolution theory that invariable says man split of from the monkeys and not the other way around as Theosophy claims.> Dear Brian, You've managed to bring up all sorts of irrelevant things without hardly addressing the issues at all. First off, I mentioned Cremo not to discuss his theories, but only to point to the evidence he and Thompson give that indicates how much data modern anthropology has ignored. After all, you were the one who wanted to talk about "Theosophy's lack of evidence." Let's stay on the subject. Second, as Mic Forster just wrote to this list, "Blavatsky needed to find terms that Western minds knew in order to explain concepts that had absolutely no analogue in the West." I think it would be valuable for you to read his most recent posts carefully. I'd be interested to see your response. Third, while we are discussing terms, I used the term "creationist" in the popular sense to mean any system that attempts to explain the existence of the world as the product of an *extra-cosmic* god, as contrasted with *scientific* views of evolution. I think Catholicism shares this characteristic with most Christian faiths. If you want to change the meaning and say Catholicism is not "creationist," you might want to check with the Catholics first. And, your use of the phrase "creation myth" in regard to Theosophy is your (pejorative) usage of *myth* as any description of the processes of evolution with which you disagree. If you want to discuss the Theosophical concepts, that's fine with me, but let's go to the texts or at least talk specifics, instead of flippantly casting terms about as they come to mind. It might be helpful to consider that there is an alternative approach to either *creationism* or *Darwinism* (Using these terms in the loose, popular senses of *god-made-the-world* or *evolution-just-happens-by-biological-means.*) Theosophy suggests such an alternative -- the involution of consciousness and the evolution of the necessary forms to meet the needs of consciousness. Finally, you continue to harp that "Theosophy denies man would have derived from chimps," forgetting, I suppose, that even modern anthropology has long since given up this simplistic notion. Blavatsky's explanation about the origin of the anthropoids is only one (minor) point, among the many concepts and conclusions found in Theosophy, that may or may not agree with the currently popular "scientific" theories. And, you continue to state that "Theosophy does this without any evidence to support this," without addressing the issue raised by modern writers, such as Cremo, Thompson and Denton to name but a few, that Science does exactly the same thing! You consistently retort that "there is no evidence for that," without once stating what sort of *evidence* you would accept, AND without offering any evidence of your own to support your position! Is this the highly-acclaimed *scientific method* you seem to want to support so desperately? In previous posts, I and others have put forward several essential issues between Theosophy and Science. But, you are going to have to address those before I go much further in this discussion. Best Regards, Wes From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Sep 02 15:48:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 2 Sep 2002 22:48:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 39240 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 22:48:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2002 22:48:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 22:48:04 -0000 Received: from pool0039.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.39] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17lzzE-0005HP-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 02 Sep 2002 15:48:00 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Missing Links and Evolution Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 15:45:14 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Dear Richard: Glad I could help. Your inquiries will always be welcome. Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Richard Pouncy [mailto:rpouncy@attbi.com] Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 10:37 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Missing Links and Evolution Good Morning Dallas: I really appreciate and enjoy your enlightening messages. May I ask if you have an archive of the Ocean of Theosophy Questions and Answers that I may have access to? Thank you. Richard Pouncy -----Original Message----- From: dalval14@earthlink.net [mailto:dalval14@earthlink.net] Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 7:41 PM To: AA-Dal Subject: Theos-World Missing Links and Evolution Aug 31 2002 Dear Friends: The following is of importance in understanding the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY chapter on Evolution' These are some answers made by Robert Crosbie to a OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY class ------------------------ 15 CHAPTER 15 CHAPTER XV DIFFERENTIATION OF SPECIES----MISSING LINKS ULTIMATE origin of man not discoverable. Man not derived from a single pair, nor from the animals. Seven races of men appeared simultaneously on the globe. They are now amalgamated and will differentiate. The Anthropoid Apes. Their origin. They came from man. They are the descendants of off spring from unnatural union in the third and fourth rounds. The Delayed Races. The secret books on the question. Human features of apes accounted for. The lower kingdoms from other planets. Their differentiation by intelligent interference by the Dhyanis. The midway point of evolution. Astral forms of old rounds solidified in physical rounds. Missing Links, what they are and why Science cannot discover them. The aim of Nature in all this work. Q. If scientists will admit the existence of the astral plane, would they not be able to make great strides in their investigations A. Unfortunately, those scientists of the present day who do admit it relate it only to post-mortem existence. With them, it is a mere sentimental consideration. If they would give the astral plane true scientific consideration, they would discover a great many truths. They will never understand evolution, for instance, until they admit the astral plane, as all the "missing links" are to be found there. Q. In what state of matter do the monads from the fanner chain begin work on this chain? p.198 A. They begin in the first or highest state of matter, but that first state is quite different from the subsequent states. It is a state of amalgamation which pertains to Globe I of the earth chain in the first round, and in the early part of the second round. Then begins a differentiation. All the kingdoms begin their work along the lines they had been following on the moon. Condensation begins and consequently the first solidification of the human form also begins here. Q. Why do we find the fossil relics of mammals, and not of man? A. The mammals are caught, as it were, in the solidification. Fossils are the real astral forms. Q. Is "the alteration of the forms" by the Dhyanis, spoken of on page 132, done by thought? A. Certainly. With knowledge and wisdom comes the power to add to, or subtract from, any given form, and this is done chiefly in the astral period of evolution. The kingdoms coming over to the earth chain would remain just what they were on the moon, if it were not for the beings who have become perfected spiritually, intellectually, and physically, and who guide the whole evolution. They map out the field, as it were. The lower kingdoms begin their work as such, with no connection between them, and no touch with the higher beings. They are all working for themselves, on their own basis. Then comes the time when the whole evolutionary scheme is brought into tune through the forms of the higher beings. When once all the kingdoms have become fully amalgamated, then comes solidification, and the beginning of the general earth cycle. Q. Are the organs of perception formed by consciousness A. They could not be formed in any other way. They do not make themselves. They are evolutions. p.199 We must remember that the seven classes of beings who deserted the moon as a worked-out planet, so far as they were concerned, had their own organic forms, and carried forward the type of humanity. They represented the humanity of the moon, and the highest expression, according to the class, of all the other classes. All were in the finer state of matter. The seven classes work first each in its own way, that is, there is a separation into classes; then with the guidance of the higher classes, they come to work together, that is, there is a gradual amalgamation. Finally, comes perceptive differentiation, that is, each to its own class again, plus all it has gained from the other classes. Thus Consciousness progresses, by contact with others and spreading the knowledge of the whole. Q. What is meant in the last paragraph of the chapter by "inorganic material"? A. We must remember that the Master in talking to us uses the words with which we are familiar, such terms as are in common use among scientific men. All Their teaching declares that there is nothing unconscious, and matter may be inorganic only in the sense that it does not have the same organs of perception which other life has. So, here it is not meant that the power of consciousness is not present in "inert material", which is "inorganic" only to our perception, and "inert", as compared with the power of thought and action possessed by the higher kingdoms. Q. Is there, in reality, any sharp line of demarcation between the vegetable and the animal? The line of demarcation may be observed in the power of locomotion. The vegetables do not move about consciously. When they have their own motive power in any given element, they are no longer classed as vegetables. They come into the animal kingdom. Q. Is there any object in evolution? p.200 A. Intelligence is always reaching out, and it makes its own object. It is its own object. And that object is unattainable, because that which is itself is unattainable. We can never encompass our own consciousness, no matter what we might be able to do on this or on ten thousand other planets. Q. Please explain the meaning here: "The varieties of character and capacity which subsequently appear in man's history are the forthcoming of the variations which were induced in the Egos in other and long anterior periods of evolution upon other chains of globes." A. It means that all exhibitions of the power of knowledge, or progress, or qualities are the coming out in man of qualities and powers acquired long, long ago. It is conditions which make possible their coming out. If we were conscious, as in fact we were, when we began this earth, we must have had inherent all those qualities that we now possess. They have been added to and changed, but the qualities were there. We simply make the conditions wherein the qualities may manifest. According to this chapter, let us bear in mind the fact that we have come down the stairs of seven grades of substance, and that each grade of substance has been formed by the beings operating in the previous grades of substance. Q. What is meant by the moment of choice for humanity as a whole? A. It is the old story in the Bible of the separation of the sheep from the goats. The time must come in the progress of humanity when there are two divisions,-that of the right-hand path, and that of the left, or, when, as the Secret Doctrine says, one part of humanity goes north, and the other south. Beings of the same kind move by them selves. When that division comes, there are many earthly cataclysms which serve to make physical disruptions of humanity, such as the disappearance of old continents, and the establishment of new ones. p.201 The moment of choice exists all the time for every individual. In that moment he may take any path but when the general moment of choice comes, he takes the path to which he has become addicted by his nature and disposition. We are constantly following the line of separateness, or of unity, choosing one way or the other, and the time must come when the differences between those who take the right-hand path, and those who take the left, are so great that there is no possible conjunction between them. Q. On page 730, it reads: With these the later Atlanteans renewed the sin of the "Mindless"-this time with full responsibility. What makes the responsibility? A. The Atlanteans of the Fourth Race were Manasic beings, and, in repeating what was done in the Third Race by the "Mindless Men", incurred full karmic responsibility, which, as the Chapter states, will have to be worked out at a very much later period than now. The mass of men will have to meet this karma in its full strength, but for individuals the opportunity is always present of drawing away from the mass karma, of paying our debts, as it were, as we go along, and coming out from among those who will not. If we fulfill our whole duty along the lines that the Masters have pointed out, it will necessarily follow at the time of separation that we shall not meet the full destructive karma which must come upon those who have taken the other side. For they will meet with a destruction of all their works and begin over again in the new evolution. Q. Then they will not have in the new evolution the benefit of their past knowledge? They lose the power. They may not lose the disposition. Yet they have the power to change the disposition, and they have help in the fact that they p.202 are thrown together with other beings of a different disposition in the period of amalgamation. Beings with the proper kind of attributes are there, and they have the opportunity of the example. Q. Why is it that this earth has but one moon while Jupiter has four. A. If we take a moon to mean a deserted planet, we could imagine a period in the evolution of a planet when there might be rapid births, as we might say, several kama rupas remaining instead of only one. Our moon is a kama rupa of the former earth; the four moons of Jupiter are likewise kama rupas. Q. Does the term 'traces" refer to the forms or to the Egos? A. It refers to the forms. Consciousness evolves its own form as It sees the necessity, and arrives at its own particular degree of intelligence. Now, there are seven degrees, or hierarchies, of intelligence. To which hierarchy he tends would depend upon the kind of evolution chosen, or upon the basis of thought and action taken by the Ego. He is really using all the hierarchies in his inner and outer sheaths, or bodies. Q. Then we have to make our various sheaths homogeneous? A. Consideration of our septenary nature should help us on this question. There is no form of nature, however low, that has not now present with it the homogeneous state. The homogeneous state is behind and within every form. It would follow, then, that we are homogeneous ourselves, in that respect, and so are in contact with the homogeneous state in everything in nature. It is through that homogeneity that we can know and understand nature, because there we are in contact with any given point. All the processes in every direction from that point can be found, whether they be those of a sun, of a planet, of a plant, an animal, or of a human being. p.203 Q. Might it be said, then, that the ultimate end of man is the realization of his own nature? A. To use a term, we may say that "the ultimate end" is the realization of man's own immortal, eternal nature. We reach that realization only through experience, through contact of almost every kind, but we have to see that we are not the contacts, nor all of them put together, nor are we the experience gained by the contacts. Man can not realize his immortal nature until he sees that he, as Perceiver, is absolutely separate and non-identified with all that he goes through. None of these perceptions are himself. He looks at them all, experiences from them, uses them as a basis for further action, gets results, good or bad, from them; but He is none of them. Q. What is the meaning of the word "Nature", as used by the Master in the closing paragraph of the chapter? A. In this particular sentence of the Master, written in reply to a scientific thinker in India, He used the term as the scientist would use it, but ac cording to the philosophy, Nature does not consciously prefer anything, because there is nothing to prefer, and there is no Nature, of itself. "Nature" means merely the aggregation of an interdependence and inter-relation of all beings. It is a term for the perception of the inter-relation and inter-connection between beings and the force that springs from them; it is an aggregation of the effects of all the forces set in motion by intelligent beings of different degrees. So, we may not imagine that "Nature" is something which exists outside of mankind. Q. By what process is Consciousness developed through the different races? p204 A. The philosophy shows that Consciousness is not developed; Consciousness always is. It is intelligence which is developed in different ways, in different degrees of substance, on different planes of being. The intelligence gained is an understanding of externalities in their relation to Consciousness itself. After the completion of the rounds of any globe, the intelligence that has been gained in every kingdom is what remains as the type for the next planet. This acquired intelligence is the basis of the Archetypal World, in which types are formulated; in which, let us say with reference to this earth, all the intelligence gained on the moon is formulated, in which all the various degrees of intelligence are contained and are existent before the world is formed. When the day for manifestation comes again, and when the dawn appears, then each form of intelligence differentiates and moves forward until it reaches that state where it can manifest on the basis already gained in the past evolution. So, it is Consciousness first, last, and all the time at the root of all manifestation. Always the Perceiver is behind every form. 1 is learned in regard to externalities or any instrument is the amount of intelligence gained, and as that intelligence increases it becomes the basis on which better instruments are formed. Q. Are the seven races each seven-principled? A. Certainly; everything is seven-principled. Q. Then, only one or two principles were fully developed in the earth races? A. Let us look at it this way. The Egos-Atma Buddhi-Manas--have the septenary basis in them selves, but they work with other grades of intelligence lower than themselves. They existed as Egos, but their work was with the various types which constituted their physical expressions, and that work was done on the seven-principled basis. To illustrate. 1 now have a physical body, but there was no physical body in those earliest races. What was to be worked out was not then present. p.205 The principles were in embryo, or latent, until the seven- principled basis was brought to bear upon what ever bodies were to be evolved during the process of the world growth. The body itself, as now evolved and constituted, has its seven divisions and is the lowest principle. Q. As seven-principled beings, were their bodies of the same general type. A. Yes, for differentiation had not then begun. When differentiation does proceed, however, it is in a septenary way-one principle evolving from the other, one principle following the other. Let us say, then, there was only one principle, but the possible differentiations were seven. >From that highest principle the second principle was evolved; from these two, the third; from the third, the fourth, and so on. As a matter of fact, there is just one Consciousness in all of us, and there is just one highest form for all of us, which might be called homogeneous matter; with these two in conjunction the septenary division goes on. Q. Why did the seven races appear at the same time? A. There is a septenary division as soon as differentiation occurs. All the classes of Egos that were self-conscious at the conclusion of the moon's cycle differentiated into seven classes, or degrees, as did all the other classes of beings connected with that evolution. Together these constitute the seven great hierarchies of being, which furnish the Ego his seven classes of instruments, for we are connected with those hierarchies through our instruments. Q. Mr. Judge says: "By methods known to themselves (the Dhyanis) and to the Great Lodge they work on the forms so brought over, and by adding here, taking away there, and often altering, they gradually transform by such alteration and addition the p.206 kingdoms of nature as well as the gradually forming gross body of man". Why could not this transformation be left to the natural impulse of the kingdoms? A. The differentiation of the animals and other species began and was carried on to a certain point within their experience. But that experience is limited. Hence, at the point of that limitation, intelligent interference from a mind or mass of minds is absolutely necessary, if old types are to be changed for better types. If old types remained, there would be no external progress, and no better instruments would be brought about. Intelligence must be active to produce evolution. Q. Is not intelligent interference going on now? A. Of course, it is. How did Luther Burbank produce the spineless cactus? First, he found a cactus with very few spines, and obtained seeds from it. From the cactus grown out of that seed he took one with the least spines and continued to work out the elimination of the spines. There, human intelligence was brought to bear upon that cactus-its forces used to produce quite another variety-the spineless cactus. ================================================= Best wishes, Dallas [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Sep 02 15:48:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 2 Sep 2002 22:48:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 33267 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2002 22:48:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2002 22:48:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2002 22:48:15 -0000 Received: from pool0039.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.39] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17lzzR-0005HP-00; Mon, 02 Sep 2002 15:48:14 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World A theory.... Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 15:45:31 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <46.2cf62027.2aa3bdad@cs.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Sept 2 2002 Re: Tiahuanaco -- Incan glyphs -- Prehistoric Astronomy Excellent -- we need to build up a library or resources on anomalies. This fits. Many thanks John. sounds awfully suggestive. Will have to secure copies and do some reading. Have you read H P B's articles: A LAND OF MYSTERY in 3 parts? Same subject. Available through http://www.blavatsky.net -- H P B articles (U L T Edn.) Vol. 3, pp 410... Thanks again, Dal =================== -----Original Message----- From: samblo@cs.com [mailto:samblo@cs.com] Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 12:00 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World A theory.... Dallas, If you can find them in your Library or otherwise I was impressed with the Research and Findings of Hans Schindler Bellamy and Peter Allen whose team put forward a decipherment of the Tiahuanaco remnants in the following works: "The Calendar of Tiahaunaco" (A Measuring System of the Oldest Civilization) Faber & Faber Ltd, 1956 "The Great Idol of Tiahuanaco" , 1959 "Built Before the Flood" (The Problem of the Tiahuanacan Ruins), 1943? "The Atlantis Myth", 1948? "A Life History of Earth" , 1951? "Moons Myths and Man" 1936 "In the Beginning God", 1945 "The Book of Revelation is History", 1942 Key Author search is "Hans Bellamy" What is described by the ignegmatic Glyphs of Tiahuanaco ? According to the findings of Bellamy and Allen and their team a description of the "Capture" and across time a shifting satellite in unstable capture cycle which eventually is orbiting the Earth at very close proximity of 5.9 Earth Radii and reaches the Roche Limit and in Veliskovskyian fashion is torn apart like an onion raining catastrophic contents upon the terrified inhabitants of our planet indelibly imprinted forever in the common universal memory of Mankind. To the eye of the observer on the ground back in that time the "Moon" in Captivity appeared as a full 40 degree's of the sky raging, flashing forth erupted thermo technic matter , a veritable Fiery Dragon venting it's rage upon us. In their works are fold-out delineation's detailing the sinusoidal paths of the Sun and the Earth's New Moon showing the period of orbital rotation as given by the Glyphs of "The Gate of the Sun". Bellamy posits that the Earth prior to this capture was asatellitic and had no Moon then, and that the tides and climate were much different from today. It well may be that our current Moon is the reconstituted lighter elements of the previous Moon which remained in orbital proximity of the Earth's influence and reaggregated and compacted by Gravity minus the Core which when freed during the cataclysm and being the kinetic prime element escaped into space within our Solar system. Now where are there known to me Glyphs like found at Tiahuanaco. Posnansky in his Benchmark Work "Tiahauanco-Cradle of American Man" , 1948 publishes the Second Middle Period of Tiahauanco at 15,450 BC. One could easily spend 2 years on just the first 2 Books I listed above which detail repletely the complex genius of the Tiahuanacan Cultures unique system. John Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From samblo@cs.com Mon Sep 02 19:27:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_1_0_1); 3 Sep 2002 02:27:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 5420 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2002 02:27:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Sep 2002 02:27:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Sep 2002 02:27:23 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.10.) id r.106.17940e51 (4529) for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2002 22:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <106.17940e51.2aa57806@cs.com> Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 22:27:18 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World A theory.... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Dallas, No, I haven't read the articles by HPB you posted but will shortly. I might add I have all the works by Bellamy and Posnansky that I posted. It took 2 years of study of Bellamy's principal publications to become acquainted with the Glyph system. It is absolutely fascinating content. Prior to their works I had acquired other works about worldwide traditions of peoples on all continents and the racial memories handed down about the "Sky Dragon" and it's variations. The idea that the Moon of the Present is the remains of the Moon of the Past is unique to Bellamy and Allens works. An additional resource they employed in their theory were the propositions put forward by Hans Hoerbiger who independently computed the mathematics of the capture sequence and temporary "Bollard Anchor" points of the newly acquired satellite (our previous Moon) and the points on the Earth relative to the same. That the Glyphs of Tiahuanaco render in explicit Azimuth and Altitude the path of the Moon is a revelation in terms of the Astronomical competency of this Archaic Culture whomever they were. One of the transformations of thinking in the study of the Glyphs was getting to try to step into the mind of who ever carved these figures. They seemed to emulate the gaze and surveying markers.Toeing the Mark, sighting the Horizon, and other expedient yet simple actions. The "Snail" figure on the Headdress represents the Zenith Point vertical to the observor, while the "spiral" engraved on the Shell represents the Altitude above the Horizon Point in 30 degree increments. It is a wonderful thought image. Analyzing the various angle of the nose and other elements one finds they contribute data to the scenery of the astronomical construct. Taking a "Heading" is literal here,lol. In any case I highly recommend this unique inheritance of Tiahuanaco, it is sad the Spanish destroyed critical knowledge bases inscr