From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Thu Aug 01 02:57:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 09:57:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 55781 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 09:57:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 09:57:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.19) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 09:57:22 -0000 Received: from modem-390.zebra.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.76.145.134] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17aCht-000107-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:57:22 +0100 Message-ID: <004501c23942$3cdc71e0$e59787d9@u0z2y2> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Secret Doctrine Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:37:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae Hello Dallas, > It has been my suspicion for many years that G R S Mead > exercised discretion and did not always say all he knew. This would seem to be the only logical explanation of the dichotomy between HPB's statement that Vol III was "entirely ready", and Mead's lack of reference to it. > As a corollary: why not consider that all those who work > strenuously for THEOSOPHY are so changing there own personal > natures so as to attune themselves, gradually to such a > condition.? This is precisely the point I tried to make elsewhere, apparently without success, the corollary of which would be the eventual changing of the whole of humanity over a long time span. The changing of the individual's personal nature being the aim of Theosophical teaching. But unless that is done first, the rest cannot happen. Orra Best, Ian From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Thu Aug 01 02:57:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 09:57:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 31830 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 09:57:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 09:57:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.19) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 09:57:24 -0000 Received: from modem-390.zebra.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.76.145.134] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17aChu-000107-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:57:23 +0100 Message-ID: <004601c23942$3d9cb4a0$e59787d9@u0z2y2> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Ariadne's thread and a particular KEY concerning SD Vol. III Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:44:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae Dallas wrote: > I am sure that others in the scientific world have read them > (the first 2 volumes), I recall reading somewhere that Albert Einstein kept a copy of The Secret Doctrine on his desk, and read from it every day. Doubtless this stimulated his mind to think along certain lines, and make certain discoveries. There is, after all, no such thing as the "supernatural", only aspects of the natural that science has not yet examined. Orra Best, Ian From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Aug 01 04:56:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 11:56:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 30606 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 11:56:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 11:56:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 11:56:44 -0000 Received: from pool0073.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.73] helo=earthlink) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aEZJ-0005xY-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 04:56:37 -0700 To: Subject: RE: S D III -- Dallas' Latest Reply (July 31 2002) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 04:54:08 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 August 1 2002 Re S D Vol III -- two letters to you yesterday July 31 2002. Dear Dan: I believe I have said all that is necessary. My views are the result of study over a long period. I made the comparison many years ago, and do not have my notes at hand any more. Consequently you are free to call them my opinions if you wish, and also say therefore, that they have no value. My study is of the practice of Theosophy as my letter yesterday emphasizes. Are you interested in that also? Similarly in regard to the statement I made concerning the disposal of the MSS of the 3rd and 4th Volumes of The SECRET DOCTRINE shortly before her death by H P B -- that is a reminiscence, a memory of what someone told me -- consequently, I set it forth as I did before -- as a report I received many years ago -- and, as I said I had no "proofs" at all beyond that. Best wishes, Dallas ----------------------==========-------------------- PS I see I made an error in dating the following letter to you PLEASE CORRECT: --------------- July 12 2002 [ Should be July 31 2002 ] [THIS SHOULD BE JULY 31, 2002 -- DTB Aug 1 2002 -- My left hand still inaccurate some times. Also, I sent it without rereading it, and missed this error.] Many thanks for your good comments Daniel. I can see some difficulties from the point of view of exact physical securing of proofs. I have no more access to any "primary" documents that I know of, or that you do not already seem to have yourself. I do a lot of thinking on the nature of certain "reticence " that H PB and others in those days exercised. Trying to fill in the blanks at this stage and over 100 years after the events is not easy at all. Of course there will be guess work and surmise. The only appeal can be to reason and to continuity of a train of thought. I sympathise with some aspects of those. My methods would not be accepted by "scholars" of today and their pre-set criteria. But I am not very concerned with that. Their perception of "gaps" cannot be reconciled if there are no physical documents -- true. Here is a for instance: By chance have you seen a letter from Subba Row reprinted in THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM (Point Loma) Vol. VI. No. 7, March 15, 1935, pp 185 ... "Leaves from theosophical History" ? I find S. Rao gives some reasons for his reticence, and also gives some of the rather strict interpretations of discipline in the occult schools. Very curious reading.. Best wishes, Dallas. ------------------ I ALSO SENT YOU THE FOLLOWING ----------------- July 31 2002 Re: SECRET DOCTRINE the THIRD VOLUME Dear Daniel: Well, I don't recall your asking me about this. And I do appreciate your putting these statements down in sequence. For a historian they are most interesting. They show how the plans for The SECRET DOCTRINE were changed as time and need altered.. If the 3rd Volume was to contain the " history of certain great adepts," then, as published it can, in my esteem, hardly qualify to do that. I find far more sketched in the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY, under various names, and imagine that H P B could have expanded that information. But that is only a speculation of mine. Scattered through the pages of ISIS UNVEILED, The SECRET DOCTRINE and her articles we can catch glimpses of certain great personages, historical and pre-historical -- and even, we might attempt to string those together. But that does not seem to be what H P B did, or intended, does it ? I assume that in presenting The SECRET DOCTRINE (the 2 volumes published in 1888) she was following the scheme that the Masters finally laid out : Cosmogenesis, and then Anthropogenesis. I would also say in my observation, she expressed her modesty -- and, she called it a theory or a hypothesis relating to the generation of the Universe, our Solar System and Earth. She did this, saying that it (the Theosophical statement -- which she claimed was condensed HISTORY taken from the pages of books and records in the libraries and repositories of the secret Lodges of the Adepts) had as much right to the public's consideration, as did the various scientific hypotheses and theories that existed at her time, and some of which survive into the present. The modern Scientific theories are based on a speculative study during the past 3 or 4 centuries of physical relicts and fragments of monuments that have survived organized attempts at their obliteration. One wonders why. The Theosophical statements are based on a study over thousands of years by the Adepts and their pupils (see S D I 272-3). They have a far greater antiquity than those of our Science. She claimed the Theosophical scheme was entirely under Law (Karma). It was based on the immutability of the one spiritual principle which is everywhere. It therefore related to the reincarnation of worlds. Thereafter, under the same law, whereby the "spiritual" always stands as the "progenitor" of the material, our own humanity was produced -- reincarnated from its earlier evolutionary vehicle on to our Earth. Here it proceeds under the same immutable evolutionary laws that take into account three factors, broadly stated on p. 181 of SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. I: 1. the Spiritual, 2. the Intellectual, and, 3. the physical. I also assume that the 3rd Volume was held back, destroyed, reconfigured, etc.... for some good reason known to the Masters and to H P B. But, I am unable to say more. I do not know why. I observe again (concerning this 3rd Volume of the S D) : she did not edit it, nor did she prepare it for final publication. I would therefore say it is guess-work for anyone to say what it would have been like. The materials may have been collected, in part, read by some, reported on, but we will never know if they are complete, or only partial, or only stray MSS available and possibly rejected by H P B earlier, for some reasons she alone knew.. Annie Besant took responsibility for producing the book (that she named the 3rd volume of The SECRET DOCTRINE) and to her we have to look for a final word -- but, again, she is no longer with us. Her Introduction says what she desired to place before us. Annie Besant released this book in 1997 (6 years after the death of H P B's body) and assumed full responsibility for it. I have compared the contents with what H P B says will be issued, as described in her first 2 volumes, to me, they are different. The "Wurzburg MSS" (copied by Countess Wachmeister, and sent to Adyar for Subba Row to review, comment on and edit) shows differences from the book as finally published (S D Vols. I & II). I believe that H P B says somewhere that the whole scheme was modified as Mr. S. Rao refused to assist as originally expected. In any case, with me, I do not know enough to speculate. I have the S D Vols I & II and even after some 60, or more years of study, I cannot say I have in any way "mastered them." I also agree that it would be very useful to some to have the next 2 volumes, but apparently we will have to "wait a while." I am sure that others in the scientific world have read them (the first 2 volumes), and interestingly enough, as time passes in the past 114 years, a number of corroborative discoveries tend to show that the statements she made then, are, in part, verifications of the facts she wrote of, and, that further investigation is uncovering more, almost daily. In itself that is significant. As I look at Theosophy, there are aspects that lend dimensions of understanding to the discoveries and speculations of Science. [You may say this has no place in the present exchange, but, I think differently, so please bear with me.] It seems to me these might be: 1. the "astral light" (or plane of electro-magnetic forces that form the lattice work on which the physical atoms and molecules arrange themselves to make up material forms. 2. Further, the concept of Karma as a universal law of cause-effect-cause... universally and endlessly proceeding; 3. following that, the concept that there is for every being a "spiritual" something that remains constant, invariable, undying -- and is in fact the base for any concept on individuality. The 4th, is the concept of reincarnation -- that every "life" on Earth is like a day in School for the undying consciousness of every individual. 5th, there is a purpose -- a goal -- for evolution which can be partially expressed as "perfection." The material forms and minds meld eventually with the spiritual "everything." But in doing so, they do not lose their identity. This is what I "get" out of The SECRET DOCTRINE and it appeals to me from its logic and perceived operation. Science on the other hand does not seem to be able to extend its purview beyond this present life we are living in this body. Its cause for existence is unknown, its fate after death is equally unknown. The reason for living is unclear. The reason for variations in human character are searched for, but theories that relate brain to mind are also variable. The puzzle deepens instead of being relieved. Frankly I do not agree with your conclusion concerning the 3rd Volume. I see therein some of H P B's posthumously published articles ( from "Lucifer" and elsewhere), but I am also keenly aware that I am not equipped to provide you with the kind of proofs you seem to want. I think I have said as much as I can on this subject. I hope it is of help, even if it appears to be a statement in an area different from what you may have in mind. Best wishes, as always, Dallas --------------------------- Aug 1 2002 (continued) You asked me about changes made to The SECRET DOCTRINE MSS by H P B May I quote your recent posting -- this is exactly what I had in mind when thinking of the difference between the "Wurzburg MSS" and the final issue in 1888 of The SECRET DOCTRINE --------- You write In October, 1886, HPB in Ostende wrote to A. P. Sinnett in London: "Well today Dj. Khool put in an appearance. . . . he told me that Master sent in a word for you, and me to tell you: 'Sinnett has evidently forgotten what he had read in the Comm. on the 7 Stanzas (Book II Archaic period). . . . ' ". . . . Well, D. Kh. said before parting company that I better write and tell you all; that there was a chance for me that either you, or Mr. Crookes would refuse to read over that which you had already read, and Mr. C. something that he is sure to find stupid, unless he reads the Comm. on Stanza VI with great attention. Well I am ready to do my duty. But I do hope Mr. Crookes will refuse." "It is true that ever since you left [Ostende in July], Master has made me add some thing daily to the old MSS. so that much of it is new and much more that I do not understand myself. So that with God's help you may find in it something to attract the attention of even such an eminent man as Mr. Crookes. . . . " Quoted from: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-aps/bl-103.htm Notice at THIS POINT in time that the Seven Stanzas of Dzyan on Cosmogony and HPB's Commentaries thereon were in the manuscript of Book II or Volume II on the Archaic Period, as it was described. COMPARE this arrangement to what Bertram Keightley wrote about the arrangement of the volumes when he first read the SD manuscript in London in the summer of 1887. Daniel H. Caldwell -------- Dont you think this covers the question of continual changes being made ? Best wishes, D. -----Original Message----- From: danielhcaldwell [mailto:comments@blavatskyarchives.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 8:53 PM To: Blavatsky_Study@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Blavatsky_Study] Dallas' Latest Reply about SD III Dallas, Thanks for your comments which can be read at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7586 I will focus solely on your comments about SD III. I ask for clarification about the following. You write: "The 'Wurzburg MSS' (copied by Countess Wachmeister, and sent to Adyar for Subba Row to review, comment on and edit) shows differences from the book as finally published (S D Vols. I & II). I believe that H P B says somewhere that the whole scheme was modified as Mr. S. Rao refused to assist as originally expected." First of all, where does HPB say, in effect, that the "the whole scheme was modified as Mr. S. Rao refused to assist as originally expected"? I am very interested in finding this statement by HPB. Secondly, what are the major DIFFERENCES between the "Wurzburg MSS" and what was published in SD Vols. I and II. I would like to read your observations about these differences. Also what are your sources upon which you base these observations? I have a few more questions but will save them for a later posting. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/7dY7FD/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/UlWolB/TM ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Blavatsky_Study-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Aug 01 05:23:47 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 12:23:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 48876 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 12:23:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 12:23:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 12:23:47 -0000 Received: from pool0042.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.42] helo=earthlink) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aEza-0002HU-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 05:23:46 -0700 To: "AA-BlavatskyStudy" Subject: RE: S D and Dr. Einstein Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 05:21:32 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <004601c23942$3d9cb4a0$e59787d9@u0z2y2> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 1 2002 Dear Ian: Einstein did indeed have a much used copy of The SECRET DOCTRINE on his desk at Princeton University. After his death his daughter (I believe) visited Adyar and gave their library the book he had used with all his notes in it. Best wishes, Dal ==================== -----Original Message----- From: Ian McRae [mailto:ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:44 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Ariadne's thread and a particular KEY concerning SD Vol. III Dallas wrote: > I am sure that others in the scientific world have read them > (the first 2 volumes), I recall reading somewhere that Albert Einstein kept a copy of The Secret Doctrine on his desk, and read from it every day. Doubtless this stimulated his mind to think along certain lines, and make certain discoveries. There is, after all, no such thing as the "supernatural", only aspects of the natural that science has not yet examined. Orra Best, Ian From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Aug 01 05:23:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 12:23:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 86974 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 12:23:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 12:23:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 12:23:51 -0000 Received: from pool0042.cvx12-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.226.42] helo=earthlink) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aEzd-0002HU-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 05:23:50 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Theosophy and the Secret Doctrine Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 05:21:34 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <004501c23942$3cdc71e0$e59787d9@u0z2y2> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 1 2002 As I understand it: Theosophy demands that every human being (mind) change and alter itself. There is a wide gap between "ALL-KNOWINGNESS" and the ignorance of a child. It is the difference between wisdom (BUDDHI) and un-reason -- mainly uncontrolled desires and passions (Kama). Our ability to "look at ourselves" comes from the highest (the immortal Atma-Buddhi Monad) in us -- which is one with the UNIVERSAL SPIRIT. Theosophy provides us with the theory, the doctrines, the disciplines that can be used in practice if we decide they are worthwhile. Nothing is forced on any one. It is both a history and a description of the progress of the Universe, and affords a glimpse into the future -- what any one of us may progress to, depending on how hard they try. But the child grows into the adult and then into old age, guided by the choices that it makes by using its understanding and its will. This process is in operation for all, right now. Most are unaware of it, but they can ascertain its presence with a little thought about their own life-progress. The differences in character and capacity we notice among us, from person to person, are due to our (and their) past lives, and the choices and training we have given ourselves then. That, and this present choosing, are Karma (the universal Law) in operation. It works generally for vast masses of humans and it also works individually on every thinking person. Further, Theosophy maintains it rules and guides every evolutionary process everywhere, and there is not any spot in the Universe that is without its purview. Best wishes, Dallas. ========================== -----Original Message----- From: Ian Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:37 AM To: Subject: Re: Secret Doctrine Hello Dallas, > It has been my suspicion for many years that G R S Mead > exercised discretion and did not always say all he knew. This would seem to be the only logical explanation of the dichotomy between HPB's statement that Vol III was "entirely ready", and Mead's lack of reference to it. > As a corollary: why not consider that all those who work > strenuously for THEOSOPHY are so changing there own personal > natures so as to attune themselves, gradually to such a > condition.? This is precisely the point I tried to make elsewhere, apparently without success, the corollary of which would be the eventual changing of the whole of humanity over a long time span. The changing of the individual's personal nature being the aim of Theosophical teaching. But unless that is done first, the rest cannot happen. Orra Best, Ian From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Thu Aug 01 11:32:22 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 18:32:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 40450 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 18:32:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 18:32:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 18:32:21 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id E402B480689 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:32:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <003401c23989$12e697c0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool and Alice Bailey Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:27:20 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Ian and all of you, It is important to keep a global focus, when we talk about these issues, Al= ice A. bailey, HPB and what Theosophy really is. Try this link to theos-talk message 4389: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4389 "H. P. Blavatsky versus Alice A. Bailey - Theosophy - and Wisdom Organisations and=20 Their Mode of Operation *** Written in private by Morten Sufilight" (A later and slightly revised version is here : http://home19.inet.tele.dk/= global-theosophy/BLAVATSK.HTM). The above article is partly concerned with showing some of the problems wit= h the article made by Nicholas Weeks in "Theosophy's Shadow" at http://www.= blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm The conclusion is, that some of Bailey's books are givning to certain group= s of aspirants, but to others not. I tend to recommend, that the student and the aspirant read books with a gl= obal perspective in mind, HPB did also recommend this.=20 AAB seems to have forgotten this somewhat ! (Her and/or Dj. Kools books are= at least slightly pro-western and "almost" anti Middle-Eastern, -- well, -= if you get the view.) AAB's books holds the jews to be a karmic problem which the masters are sor= t of gravely concerned with. HPB says somewhere in The Secret Doctrine that the jews is an artificial ra= ce ! (What HPB's definition on the word 'jew' exactly covered is difficult = to grasp, unless the so-called '7 keys' are used.) from Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "danielhcaldwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 8:16 PM Subject: Theos-World Dj. Khool and Alice Bailey > Ian, you wrote: >=20 > "Is this Dj. Khool the same person who was the inspiration for Alice=20 > Bailey ? She spelled the full name as, "Djwhal Khul" I have often=20 > seen Alice Bailey referred to as a Theosophist. Anyone know what=20 > connection she had with the TS ?" >=20 > Ian, you might want to read and study the following four items: >=20 > (1) "Theosophy's Shadow" by Nicholas Weeks. A critical look at the=20 > claims and teachings of Alice A. Bailey. This article is a revised=20 > and expanded version of one that appeared in the Summer 1997 issue of=20 > Fohat, a Theosophical magazine published in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. > According to my understanding, Nicholas was once a very devoted=20 > student of Mrs. Bailey's teachings. But after coming into contact=20 > with HP Blavatsky's writings, Nicholas started finding differences=20 > and discrepancies between these writings. > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm >=20 > (2) "Alice Bailey" by Reba Parker and Timothy Oliver > http://www.watchman.org/profile/bailypro.htm >=20 > (3) "The Pseudo-occultism of Alice Bailey" by Alice Leighton Cleather=20 > and Basil Crump > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/HPBvsAB.html >=20 > (4) "Alice Bailey Teachings Examined." High Country Theosophist,=20 > April 2001, pp. 1-14. > http://www.theosophy.net/hct/hct0104.pdf >=20 > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From leonmaurer@aol.com Thu Aug 01 11:43:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 18:43:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 62400 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 18:43:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 18:43:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r08.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.104) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 18:43:47 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.166.11874661 (4330) for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <166.11874661.2a7adb5e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:43:42 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: S D and Dr. Einstein To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 For the full story about Einstein and the SD, go to: http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html LHM In a message dated 08/01/02 7:25:26 AM, dalval14@earthlink.net writes: >Aug 1 2002 > >Dear Ian: > >Einstein did indeed have a much used copy of The SECRET >DOCTRINE on his desk at Princeton University. > >After his death his daughter (I believe) visited Adyar and >gave their library the book he had used with all his notes >in it. > >Best wishes, > >Dal From jpcondick@btinternet.com Thu Aug 01 13:59:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: jpcondick@btinternet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Aug 2002 20:59:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 36476 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 20:59:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Aug 2002 20:59:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gadolinium.btinternet.com) (194.73.73.111) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Aug 2002 20:59:32 -0000 Received: from host213-1-104-200.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([213.1.104.200] helo=oemcomputer) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with smtp (Exim 3.22 #8) id 17aN2e-0003We-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:59:30 +0100 Message-ID: <003e01c2399e$941f7220$c86801d5@oemcomputer> To: Subject: H P Blavatsky A Fiery Messanger. concluding volume of The Secret Doctrine Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:01:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Jeremy Condick" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94977946 X-Yahoo-Profile: logos_endless_summers I must also tell you that I was greatly hurt by the lines you sent about H. P. Blavatsky. I sensed in them an echo of the vulgar opinions so characteristic of persons of a certain type. I must tell you that, definitely, H. P. Blavatsky was a fiery messenger of the White Brotherhood. Most certainly she was the bearer of the entrusted knowledge. Definitely, of all the Theosophists, only H. P. Blavatsky had the privilege of receiving the Teaching directly from the Great Teachers in one of their Ashrams in Tibet. She was the great spirit who accepted the bitter task of giving to humanity, lost in dead dogma and on its way to atheism, the impulse to study the great sacred Doctrines of the East. Precisely, only through H. P. Blavatsky was it possible to approach the White Brotherhood, as she was the link in the Hierarchic Chain. But some of those who surrounded her were very much beneath her fiery spirit and heart; yet in their self-conceit they thought of reaching alone the Heights, ignoring the Hierarchical link as well as her merit. In their jealousy, they slandered, criticized and inveighed against her, the one who had given them everything, who trusted them. But all those self-deluded, arrogant people achieved nothing, for the law of Hierarchy is immutable. For the benefit of the general work, the Mahatmas corresponded with some of her co-workers; however, not one of those people was admitted into discipleship. In the writings of H. P. Blavatsky, and in The Mahatma Letters, you will find the statement that H. P. Blavatsky was the Hierarchical link which, if neglected, would cause complete failure. And now the self-deluded ones who have passed into the Subtle World and are surrounded by their followers are probably even further away from the Stronghold of the White Brotherhood than ever. Whereas, our great compatriot, because of her fiery striving, was incarnated (in Hungary) almost immediately after her death, and now it has been ten years since she arrived in her physical body at the main Stronghold and under the name of Brother X is working for the salvation of humanity. Thus acts Cosmic Justice. H. P. Blavatsky was a great martyr in the real sense of the word. The envy, slander and persecution of the ignorant killed her, and her work remained unfinished. The concluding volume of The Secret Doctrine could not be given. Thus people deprive themselves of the highest. I much revere the great spirit and fiery heart of our country-woman, and I know that in the Russia of the future her name will be fittingly honored. H. P. Blavatsky should truly evoke our national pride. Great martyr for Light and Truth! May Glory always be with her! Letters of Helena Roerich Vol I >>>>>Consciousness is one, yet produces the varied forms of the many<<<<< From compiler@wisdomworld.org Thu Aug 01 17:36:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 00:36:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 29258 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 00:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 00:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.comcast.net) (24.153.64.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 00:36:49 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org (pcp01836542pcs.owngsm01.md.comcast.net [68.32.55.36]) by mtaout05.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.8 (built May 13 2002)) with ESMTP id <0H0600033XP2EX@mtaout05.icomcast.net> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 20:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 20:36:15 -0500 Subject: "FACETS OF INQUIRY" (#17) [1 Question, 3 Essays] To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <3D49E210.B2A4075@wisdomworld.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en From: Compiler X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=46028585 X-Yahoo-Profile: john_compiler_wisdomworld I hope that many readers will find this article in the "Facets of Inquiry" department to be very informative and useful: =================================================== FACETS OF INQUIRY (Article #17 in this grouping): ----------------------------------------------------- This is how it appears on the department's Index page: ----------------------------------------------------- (17) Winter 2001-2002 [Question by the Editors: "In light of the recent terrorist attacks on the United States, what does it truly mean 'to turn the other cheek'?" This is followed by their introductory comments on the subject, which is then followed by answers from theosophy students under these three headings: (1) UNIVERSALS; (2) RESTRAINT OR RETALIATION? (3) NEW PARADIGM.] ------------------------------------------------- [The 1st link is to the article itself. If it's broken, the 2nd link is to the section on the "Additional" articles Index page, entitled: "Nine Groupings of Articles for Young People & Adults-- Most of Which are in 'Question & Answer' Format", where you will see the links to the index pages for all 9 groupings (departments). Click on the 9th one and then scroll down the page to the 17th article.] http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/FacetsOfInquiry/No.17-Winter2001-2002.html http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html#13 ==================================================== John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: WisdomWorld.org web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org/ This is the Index page of the "Introductory", "Setting the Stage" book, which was especially compiled for newcomers to Theosophy: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html ------- PUBLIC & PRIVATE ENTERPRISE: This next link is to the most updated version of my economic-project proposal to humanity, a practical project to help our suffering humanity that I also consider to be Theosophical. In it you will find a new and unique, but mostly unknown, economic system model that might be able to put an end to involuntary poverty on earth. How? It presents a way to fully finance everything of importance that is needed in every nation. Because of this it's well worth pointing to. Please note that, for strategic reasons, of wanting it to have the best chance of being accepted by all peoples worldwide, no matter what their religious, philosophical, and scientific beliefs are, I've put it on a completely different web site; it contains no mention of, or link to, the Theosophy and the Theosophical Movement that is presented on my WisdomWorld.org web site: http://www.PublicAndPrivateEnterprise.org/ ------- From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Aug 01 20:17:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 03:17:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 45320 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 03:17:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 03:17:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 03:16:59 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.136] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2002 03:16:57 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 03:16:55 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Ian and Dallas on G.R.S. Mead Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1752 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.11.114 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Ian wrote: "Even at that stage HPB said, in 1888, that Volume III was 'entirely ready'. This was two and a half years before her death. The thing I find baffling is that GRS Mead, who was her personal secretary during the last two years of her life, made no mention of seeing the correct manuscript of Volume III. He states, as Daniel points out in his paper, that he has edited almost all of what HPB had written in English, with the exception of Isis Unveiled, but had never seen what was published as Volume III. One would have thought that if there was a Volume III extant at the time, which HPB said was 'entirely ready' in 1888, then Mead would have seen it. If this were the case why did he not say that the Volume III which was published was not the correct one ?" Later in the same email, Ian wrote: "This [the story about A. Keightley helping HPB destroy her Volume III shortly before her death] would certainly explain a lot, but not Mead's lack of knowledge of the true Volume III manuscript. Unless Mead was himself privy to what had happened and was maintaining secrecy." Dallas commented: "It has been my suspicion for many years that G R S Mead exercised discretion and did not always say all he knew." Ian replied to Dallas' comment: "This would seem to be the only logical explanation of the dichotomy between HPB's statement that Vol III was 'entirely ready', and Mead's lack of reference to it." Ian and Dallas, could one of you or both of you tell me exactly what you are trying to convey in the above statements? I want to make a few comments but I want to be sure I understand the significance of your statements. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Thu Aug 01 22:04:27 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 05:04:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 80616 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 05:04:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 05:04:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 05:04:26 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.141] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Aug 2002 05:04:26 -0000 Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 05:04:24 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 12449 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.11.114 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell Some theosophical students have written that true Theosophy does not=20 have core teachings. These students have characterized those who=20 believe Theosophy has definite teachings as "Core Theosophists" and=20 labeled them as "dogmatists", "fundamentalists", and with other=20 negative terms.=20 In response, I've appended excerpts from an 1975 article by Boris de=20 Zirkoff, the editor of The Blavatsky Collected Writings. I believe=20 Mr. de Zirkoff's word reflect common sense and a practical approach=20 to the study of Theosophy. I've also appended a number of excerpts=20 from H.P.B.'s first great work, Isis Unveiled, which, in my opinion,=20 confirm much of what Mr. de Zirkoff has written.=20 First, Boris de Zirkoff:=20 For some years past, a tendency has existed among some [theosophical]=20 students ... to consider theosophy as some sort of generalized=20 approach to truth, a tradition, often somewhat uncertain, concerning=20 various aspects of the Universe and man, a system of ideas and=20 concepts which can hardly be defined with any degree of exactness or=20 clarity. It is most likely that this tendency owes its origin to a=20 desire to avoid any dogmatic attitude or the creation of any kind of=20 creed. The motive may have been laudable, but the methods employed=20 have been rather dubious.=20 We should never lose sight of the fact that the Esoteric Philosophy=20 is a very definite doctrine, a system of thought based on specific=20 postulates, on well-defined propositions ... Even a cursory glance at=20 the pages of The Secret Doctrine would confirm this fact. That work=20 contains innumerable instances where H.P.B. (and the Adept-Brothers=20 speaking through her) uses such expressions as: "the Secret Doctrine=20 teaches," "secret records declare," "The Esoteric Philosophy states=20 that ... ," "it is the teaching of the ancient occult doctrine," and=20 others. If the student cared to underline these passages and then=20 read them consecutively, or place them in juxtaposition, he would see=20 at a glance that the "Secret Doctrine," as a system of thought, is=20 about as definite as any science or philosophy is ever apt to be, and=20 stands in direct opposition to a large number of other ideas which=20 have become current in the world under the name of one or another=20 religion or philosophy.=20 It is perfectly true that the objects of the organized body known as=20 The Theosophical Society have never contained any definition of what=20 Theosophy is or is not; but it is equally true that the teachings=20 promulgated by the Founders and their Superiors are defined in no=20 uncertain language throughout the length and breadth of the original=20 theosophical literature, leaving no room whatsoever for doubt as to=20 what the system of thought known as theosophy is all about, what it=20 teaches and what it does not.=20 If this state of affairs is at any time considered to be credal in=20 nature, and therefore dogmatic, then we will have to assume that the=20 statement of 'two and two making four' is also a creed, or that the=20 laws governing gravitational and magnetic energies are dogmatic.=20 The propositions of the Esoteric Philosophy may seem to be dogmatic=20 or may be interpreted as a creed by those of us =97 probably the=20 overwhelming majority of us =97 -who are yet unable to prove them to ourselves experimentally. This situation is not much different=20 from the fact that a beginner in chemistry can hardly prove to=20 himself the alleged fact that water is H2O, until he has grasped the=20 methods necessary to verify it experimentally.=20 If we are prepared to comply with the conditions necessary for a=20 personal investigation of the facts of nature defined by the Occult=20 Doctrine, we shall be in a position to prove to ourselves=20 experimentally the validity of its propositions. How many of us are=20 ready to do so?=20 In the meantime =97 and far from any acceptance of ideas on merely a blind belief =97 we can investigate the coherence of that system of thought, its logical interrelatedness, its appeal to both reason=20 and intuition, its application in both great and small ways, and its=20 practical value in relation to others. Thereby we may become=20 gradually convinced of the truth of the propositions and postulates=20 of the Esoteric Philosophy, long before the time when it will have=20 become possible for us to undertake a 'clinical' investigation of the=20 laws involved therein and to manipulate the forces and energies of=20 the occult aspects of Nature.=20 And from Isis Unveiled by H.P. Blavatsky:=20 The work now submitted to public judgment is the fruit of a somewhat=20 intimate acquaintance with Eastern Adepts and study of their=20 science ... we came into contact with certain men, endowed with such=20 mysterious powers and such profound knowledge that we may truly=20 designate them as the sages of the Orient. To their instructions we=20 lent a ready ear ... (I, v, vi)=20 ... from the first ages of man, the fundamental truths of all that we=20 are permitted to know on earth was in the safe keeping of the adepts=20 of the sanctuary ... those guardians of the primitive divine=20 revelation, who had solved every problem that is within the grasp of=20 human intellect, were bound together by a universal freemasonry of=20 science and philosophy, which formed one unbroken chain around the=20 globe. (I, 37-38)=20 There are, scattered throughout the world, a handful of thoughtful=20 and solitary students, who pass their lives in obscurity, far from=20 the rumors of the world, studying the great problems of the physical=20 and spiritual universes. They have their secret records in which are=20 preserved the fruits of the scholastic labors of the long line of=20 recluses whose successors they are ... (I, 557)=20 The esoteric doctrine ... teaches ... that the one infinite and=20 unknown Essence exists from all eternity, and in regular and=20 harmonious successions is either passive or active. In the poetical=20 phraseology of Manu these conditions are called the 'day' and=20 the 'night' of Brahma. The latter is either 'awake' or 'asleep.' ...=20 Upon inaugurating an active period, says The Secret Doctrine, an=20 expansion of this Divine essence, from within out- wardly, occurs in=20 obedience to eternal and immutable law, and the phenomenal or visible=20 universe is the ultimate result of the long chain of cosmical forces=20 thus progressively set in motion. In like manner, when the passive=20 condition is resumed, a contraction of the Divine essence takes=20 place, and the previous work of creation is gradually and=20 progressively undone. The visible universe becomes disintegrated, its=20 material dispersed; and 'darkness,' solitary and alone, broods once=20 more over the face of the 'deep.' To use a metaphor which will convey=20 the idea still more clearly, an out breathing of the 'unknown=20 essence' produces the world; and an inhalation causes it to=20 disappear. This process has been going on from all eternity, and our=20 present universe is but one of an infinite series which had no=20 beginning and will have no end. (II, pp. 264-265)=20 Gautama, no less than all other great reformers, had a doctrine for=20 his 'elect' and another for the outside masses ... Gautama left the=20 esoteric and most dangerous portion of the 'secret knowledge'=20 untouched ... (II, 319)=20 ... the Secret Doctrine is the Truth ... (II, 292)=20 ... many are those who ... will remain in doubt and mortal agony as=20 to whether, when man dies, he will live again, although the question=20 has been solved by long bygone generations of sages ... except the=20 initiates, no one has understood the mystic writing. The key was in=20 the keeping of those who knew how to commune with the invisible=20 Presence, and who had received, from the lips of mother Nature=20 herself, her grand truths ... (I, 573)=20 ... This 'secret doctrine' contains the alpha and omega of universal=20 science; therein lies the corner and the keystone of all the ancient=20 and modern knowledge; and alone in this ... doctrine remains buried=20 the absolute in the philosophy of the dark problems of life and=20 death ... (I, 511)=20 Thus is it that all the religious monuments of old, in whatever land=20 or under whatever climate, are the expression of the same identical=20 thoughts, the key to which is in the esoteric doctrine ... And the=20 clergy of every nation, though practicing rites and ceremonies which=20 may have differed externally, had evidently been initiated into the=20 same traditional mysteries which were taught all over the world ...=20 (I, 561)=20 ... the Northern seSwedenborg, advises people to search for the lost=20 word among the hierophants of Tartary, China and Thibet; for it is=20 there, and only there now ...=20 ... the four Vedas; the Books of Hermes; the Chaldean Book of=20 Numbers; the Nazarene Codex; the Kabala ... ; the Sepher Jezira; the=20 Book of Wisdom ... ; the Brahmanas; the Stan-gyour, of the Thibetans;=20 all these volumes have the same ground-work. Varying but in=20 allegories they teach the same secret doctrine which ... will prove=20 to be the Ultima Thule of true philosophy, and disclose what is this=20 lost word. (I, 580)=20 ... the 'secret doctrine' or wisdom was identical in every=20 country ... (I, 444)=20 ... What we desire to prove is, that underlying every ancient popular=20 religion was the same ancient wisdom- doctrine, one and identical,=20 professed and practiced by the initiates of every country, who alone=20 were aware of its existence and importance ... A single glance ... is=20 enough to assure one that it could not have attained the marvelous=20 perfection in which we find it pictured to us in the relics of the=20 various esoteric systems, except after a succession of ages. A=20 philosophy so profound, a moral code so ennobling, and practical=20 results so conclusive and so uniformly demonstrable is not the growth=20 of a generation, or even a single epoch. Fact must have been piled=20 upon fact, deduction upon deduction, science have begotten science,=20 and myriads of the brightest human intellects have reflected upon the=20 laws of nature, before this ancient doctrine had taken concrete=20 shape. The proofs of this identity of fundamental doctrine in the old=20 religions are found in the prevalence of a system of initiation; in=20 the secret sacerdotal castes who had the guardianship of mystical=20 words of power, and a public display of a phenomenal control over=20 natural forces, indicating association with preterhuman beings ...=20 As we proceed, we will point out the evidences of this identity of=20 vows, formulas, rites, and doctrines, between the ancient faiths. We=20 will also show that not only their memory is still preserved in=20 India, but also that the Secret Association is still alive and as=20 active as ever ... the chief pontiff and hierophant, the Brahmatma,=20 is still accessible to those 'who know,' though perhaps recognized by=20 another name; and that the ramifications of his influence extend=20 throughout the world ... (II, 99-100)=20 Our examination of the multitudinous religious faiths that mankind,=20 early and late, have professed, most assuredly indicates that they=20 have all been derived from one primitive source. It would seem as if=20 they were all but different modes of expressing the yearning of the=20 imprisoned human soul for intercourse with supernal spheres. As the=20 while ray of light is decomposed by the prism into the various colors=20 of the solar spectrum, so the beam of divine truth, in passing=20 through the three-sided prism of man's nature, has been broken up=20 into vari-colored fragments called religions. And, as the rays of the=20 spectrum, by imperceptible shadings, merge into each other, so the=20 great theologies that have appeared at different degrees of=20 divergence from the original source, have been connected by minor=20 schisms, schools, and off-shoots from the one side or the other.=20 Combined, their aggregate represents one eternal truth; separate,=20 they are but shades of human error and the signs of=20 imperfection ... " "What has been contemptuously termed Paganism, was=20 ancient wisdom replete with Deity; and Judaism and its offspring,=20 Christianity and Islamism, derived whatever of inspiration they=20 contained from this ethic parent. Pre-Vedic Brahmanism and Buddhism=20 are the double source from which all religions sprung; Nirvana is the=20 ocean to which all tend. (II, 639)=20 End of article. ------------------------------------- Visit Blavatsky Archives at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Aug 01 22:22:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 05:22:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 31573 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 05:22:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 05:22:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 05:22:57 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-094-030.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.94.30] helo=sprynet.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aUts-00013o-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:22:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4A1730.FEF6E67B@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 01:22:56 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 danielhcaldwell wrote: > Some theosophical students have written that true Theosophy does not > have core teachings. These students have characterized those who > believe Theosophy has definite teachings as "Core Theosophists" and > labeled them as "dogmatists", "fundamentalists", and with other > negative terms. Theosophy has no core teachings. The various Theosophical Societies do, but no member is required to believe them (except for their own individual interpretations of the 3 Objects). Bart Lidofsky From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Fri Aug 02 03:04:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 10:04:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 45575 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 10:04:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 10:04:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.19) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 10:04:01 -0000 Received: from modem-1184.llama.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.180.160] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17aZHr-0005os-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 11:03:59 +0100 Message-ID: <03fa01c23a0c$4bda2000$e59787d9@u0z2y2> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Ian and Dallas on G.R.S. Mead Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:34:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae Hi Daniel, What is flitting across my mind is that GRS Mead may have been privy to plans which meant the withdrawal of the prospective Volume III. If the existence of the manuscript for this were acknowledged, then there may have been a clamour to have it published anyway, so Mead just never mentioned it. In other words, it was deliberately suppressed, either by HPB herself on instructions from a higher authority, or by someone else. Mead was aware of this, but said nothing. That seems to reconcile the fact that HPB said it was "entirely ready", and Mead's failure to even mention it when, as her personal secretary for the last two years of her life, and as a person who said he had worked with everything she had written in English except Isis Unveiled, he must have seen it if it were extant. Do you have an alternative theory, Daniel, which reconciles Mead's failure to mention it, and HPB's statement that it was "entirely ready" ? Orra Best, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "danielhcaldwell" To: Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 4:16 AM Subject: Theos-World Ian and Dallas on G.R.S. Mead > Ian wrote: > > "Even at that stage HPB said, in 1888, that Volume III was 'entirely > ready'. This was two and a half years before her death. The thing I > find baffling is that GRS Mead, who was her personal secretary during > the last two years of her life, made no mention of seeing the correct > manuscript of Volume III. He states, as Daniel points out in his > paper, that he has edited almost all of what HPB had written in > English, with the exception of Isis Unveiled, but had never seen what > was published as Volume III. One would have thought that if there was > a Volume III extant at the time, which HPB said was 'entirely ready' > in 1888, then Mead would have seen it. If this were the case why did > he not say that the Volume III which was published was not the > correct one ?" > > Later in the same email, Ian wrote: > > "This [the story about A. Keightley helping HPB destroy her Volume > III shortly before her death] would certainly explain a lot, but not > Mead's lack of knowledge of the true Volume III manuscript. Unless > Mead was himself privy to what had happened and was maintaining > secrecy." > > Dallas commented: > > "It has been my suspicion for many years that G R S Mead exercised > discretion and did not always say all he knew." > > Ian replied to Dallas' comment: > > "This would seem to be the only logical explanation of the dichotomy > between HPB's statement that Vol III was 'entirely ready', and Mead's > lack of reference to it." > > Ian and Dallas, could one of you or both of you tell me exactly what > you are trying to convey in the above statements? > > I want to make a few comments but I want to be sure I understand the > significance of your statements. > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Fri Aug 02 09:01:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 16:01:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 77158 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 16:01:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 16:01:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.19) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 16:01:42 -0000 Received: from modem-1612.zebra.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.76.150.76] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17aes0-0006HE-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 17:01:41 +0100 Message-ID: <061e01c23a3e$40b6cb60$e59787d9@u0z2y2> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool and Alice Bailey Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 16:14:54 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae Thanks for the pointer to the sites about Alice Bailey. I have to say I am always wary of sites which severely criticise someone, particularly when it comes down to orthodoxy ! And very especially with sites like The Watchman, which I believe is backed by mainstream Christianity. There are sites which give HPB's reputation a hard time ! :o))) It was, nevertheless an interesting excursion, and I have saved some of these articles for printing out and a more measured perusal. I still have not adjusted to reading long articles from a computer screen, and I doubt I ever will. All these sources seem to be agreed that Alice Bailey is not in the same league as HPB, so to speak. Orra Best, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "danielhcaldwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 7:16 PM Subject: Theos-World Dj. Khool and Alice Bailey > Ian, you wrote: > > "Is this Dj. Khool the same person who was the inspiration for Alice > Bailey ? She spelled the full name as, "Djwhal Khul" I have often > seen Alice Bailey referred to as a Theosophist. Anyone know what > connection she had with the TS ?" > > Ian, you might want to read and study the following four items: > > (1) "Theosophy's Shadow" by Nicholas Weeks. A critical look at the > claims and teachings of Alice A. Bailey. This article is a revised > and expanded version of one that appeared in the Summer 1997 issue of > Fohat, a Theosophical magazine published in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. > According to my understanding, Nicholas was once a very devoted > student of Mrs. Bailey's teachings. But after coming into contact > with HP Blavatsky's writings, Nicholas started finding differences > and discrepancies between these writings. > http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm > > (2) "Alice Bailey" by Reba Parker and Timothy Oliver > http://www.watchman.org/profile/bailypro.htm > > (3) "The Pseudo-occultism of Alice Bailey" by Alice Leighton Cleather > and Basil Crump > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/HPBvsAB.html > > (4) "Alice Bailey Teachings Examined." High Country Theosophist, > April 2001, pp. 1-14. > http://www.theosophy.net/hct/hct0104.pdf > > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Aug 02 12:47:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Aug 2002 19:47:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 33112 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 19:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Aug 2002 19:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m08.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.163) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Aug 2002 19:47:58 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.7e.2b7aad7f (25308) for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7e.2b7aad7f.2a7c3be8@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:47:52 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Theosophy has logically unassailable "fundamental principles" or propositions underlying the truths of both Cosmogenesis and Anthropogenesis -- that are entirely consistent with modern science as well as ancient esoteric scriptural and oral teachings. Together, they constitute the fundamental teachings of the "Secret Doctrine" -- supposedly the basis of all "true" theosophical knowledge. What's the difference between such "fundamental teachings" and "core teachings"? Since "theosophy" as presented to the West by HPB, refers solely to the "Secret Doctrine of the East" as its source -- the only basis for understanding or discussion of the fundamental teachings, are the books and writings of HPB along with the Eastern scriptural references she referred to. "Objects of the Theosophical Movement," on the other hand, are not "teachings" but simply organizational purposes and student guidance. Also, "fundamental teachings" cannot be "dogmas." It follows, then, that any "true theosophists" who understand the "fundamental principles" and the true nature of the Universe which they govern, should be proud to call themselves "theosophical fundamentalists" . . . The word "fundamentalist" having an entirely different meaning when referring to those who follow cooked up religious dogmas, or opinionated biblical interpretations on faith alone. (See below.) LHM Ref: (From American Heritage Dictionary) dog'ma n. pl. dog'mas or dog'ma'ta 1. Theology - A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church. 2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. fun'da'men'tal'ism n. 1. a. Often Fundamentalism - An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in 1920 in opposition to Liberalism and secularism. b. Adherence to the theology of this movement. 2. A movement or point of view characterized by rigid adherence to fundamental or basic principles. In a message dated 08/02/02 12:24:10 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >danielhcaldwell wrote: >> Some theosophical students have written that true Theosophy does not >> have core teachings. These students have characterized those who >> believe Theosophy has definite teachings as "Core Theosophists" and >> labeled them as "dogmatists", "fundamentalists", and with other >> negative terms. > > Theosophy has no core teachings. The various Theosophical Societies do, >but no member is required to believe them (except for their own >individual interpretations of the 3 Objects). > > Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Fri Aug 02 22:28:51 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 05:28:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 15906 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 05:28:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 05:28:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 05:28:49 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17arT6-0001Re-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 22:28:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4B6A5D.CD41C3B1@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 01:30:05 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? References: <7e.2b7aad7f.2a7c3be8@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > Theosophy has logically unassailable "fundamental principles" or propositions The Sufi's and Kabballists might disagree with you. Bart Lidofsky From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sat Aug 03 03:13:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 10:13:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 3720 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 10:13:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 10:13:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepc.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.4) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 10:13:44 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E01F262E1F for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 12:13:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <009201c23ad5$be1530a0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] about SD Vol. III Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 12:08:39 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Dallas and all of you, What ? Interesting. Dallas wrote: "By chance have you seen a letter from Subba Row reprinted in THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM (Point Loma) Vol. VI. No. 7, March 15, 1935, pp 185 ... "Leaves from theosophical History" ? I find S. Rao gives some reasons for his reticence, and also gives some of the rather strict interpretations of discipline in the occult schools. Very curious reading.." Can we have that letter emailed - online - Dallas or is it to long ? from Sufilight with peace and love... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: "AA-B-Study" Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 9:23 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] a= bout SD Vol. III > July 12 2002 >=20 > Many thanks for your good comments Daniel. >=20 > I can see some difficulties from the point of view of exact > physical securing of proofs. I have no more access to any > "primary" documents that I know of, or that you do not > already seem to have yourself. >=20 > I do a lot of thinking on the nature of certain "reticence " > that H PB and others in those days exercised. Trying to > fill in the blanks at this stage and over 100 years after > the events is not easy at all. Of course there will be > guess work and surmise. The only appeal can be to reason and > to continuity of a train of thought. I sympathise with some > aspects of those. >=20 > My methods would not be accepted by "scholars" of today and > their pre-set criteria. But I am not very concerned with > that. Their perception of "gaps" cannot be reconciled if > there are no physical documents -- true. >=20 > Here is a for instance: >=20 > By chance have you seen a letter from Subba Row reprinted in > THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM (Point Loma) Vol. VI. No. 7, March > 15, 1935, pp 185 ... "Leaves from theosophical History" ? > I find S. Rao gives some reasons for his reticence, and also > gives some of the rather strict interpretations of > discipline in the occult schools. Very curious reading.. >=20 > Best wishes, >=20 >=20 > Dallas. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: danielhcaldwell > [mailto:comments@blavatskyarchives.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 11:28 PM > To: > Subject: Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] > about SD Vol. III >=20 > Dallas, you write: >=20 > "H.P.Blavatsky sent the original draft to Subba Row in > Madras > to review. He found that too many of the Brahmanical > esoteric secrets were to be revealed. He could not stand > that, and that is what set him against H.P.Blavatsky see > The THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1875-1925) pp. 51, 137, 150, 235, > 570. That draft has been retained in the Adyar library. H > P B then rewrote those pages and we have that version in the > "original 1888 Edition" of the S D." >=20 > Dallas, there are a number of confusions and misstatements > in what > you write above. And I see that your key idea in what you > write > above apparently originates from what is given on page 570 > of THE > THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT, 1925 edition. >=20 > It would also appear that this material on p. 570 can be > found > online. I now quote the main portion of this material as > found on > the WWW: >=20 > ------------------------------------ >=20 > The utter disappearance without a trace left behind, of the > genuine > Third and Fourth Volumes of the Secret Doctrine remains to > this day > an unrevealed mystery. And as to Mrs. Besant's spurious > "Third > Volume," her own Preface alone is ample to convince any > careful > student, able to sift statements, that it is nothing more > than a > hodge-podge of rejected manuscripts, "literary remains," > private > papers originally issued to the E.S.T. during the life-time > of > H.P.B., and largely rejected manuscript of the first volume > of the > Original Edition. For it is, or should be, well known to > every > Theosophical student that, as repeatedly announced in the > earlier > volumes of "The Theosophist," H.P.B.'s original intention > was that > the "Secret Doctrine" should be a revised edition of "Isis > Unveiled," > and in pursuance of that intention she wrote one entire > volume, prior > to 1886, when returning confidence and trust in her by the > mass of > members of the T.S. enabled her to enlarge her plan and > write an > entirely new work. A copy of that early first volume was > sent by > H.P.B. to Subba Row for criticism and comment. Followed his > breach > with H.P.B.(6) as already narrated. He refused to do > anything with > it, but kept the manuscript. It is matter from that rejected > manuscript which is incorporated in Mrs. Besant's "Third > Volume." > And, -- notable phenomenon -- the fact is admitted by Mrs. > Besant > herself in "The Theosophist" for March, 1922 -- twenty-five > years > after the event. Why did she concoct this spurious "Third > Volume" in > the first instance? And why did she in 1922 let slip the > truth which > in 1897 she not only suppressed, but replaced by a > deliberate untruth? >=20 > ----------------------- >=20 > [Extracted from: > http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/TheTheosophicalMovemen > t- > Series/Chapter-31.html ] >=20 > To view this extract online the reader will have to > carefully paste > all of the link into the address field of one's browser. >=20 > ----------------------- >=20 > SOME OF MY COMMENTS: >=20 > A number of general assertions are made in the quoted text > on the WWW > but the reader is NOT given access (or even citations) to > the primary > sources from which these generalized statements are made. >=20 >=20 > And I call attention to the following statement in the > above-quoted > text: >=20 > -------------------------- >=20 > And as to Mrs. Besant's spurious "Third Volume," her own > Preface > alone is ample to convince any careful student, able to sift > statements, that it is nothing more than a hodge-podge of > rejected > manuscripts, "literary remains," private papers originally > issued to > the E.S.T. during the life-time of H.P.B., and largely > rejected > manuscript of the first volume of the Original Edition. >=20 > ------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 > Please pay special attention to the wording that reads: >=20 > ". . . largely REJECTED manuscript of the first volume of > the > Original Edition. . . ." >=20 > Rejected by whom? By HPB??? >=20 > What are the anonymous writers trying to convey to us? >=20 > That HPB wrote "one entire volume, prior to 1886" that was > later "rejected" [by whom?] and completely set aside and > that > subsequently HPB wrote a SD manuscript completely new??? >=20 >=20 > DTB I would assume that the Masters and H P B were > responsible for that. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Dallas, can you specify in some understandable detail what > the > contentions of the anonymous authors are in the above quoted > extracts > from page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT (1925 ed.)? >=20 > If not, can you expand on the statement you made that is > quoted at > the very beginning of this posting? >=20 > I am seriously trying to understand what is being stated in > both your > quote and from the quote from page 570 of the TM book. >=20 > Daniel H. Caldwell > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES > http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Sat Aug 03 03:14:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 10:14:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 74639 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 10:14:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 10:14:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.210) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 10:14:37 -0000 Received: from modem-4077.rhino.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.137.111.237] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17avvg-0004sm-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 11:14:36 +0100 Message-ID: <08f501c23ad6$ea669940$e59787d9@u0z2y2> To: References: <166.11874661.2a7adb5e@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: S D and Dr. Einstein Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:57:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae That is very interesting, Dallas. A nice little "aside", and confirmation of the story. Orra Best, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:43 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: S D and Dr. Einstein > For the full story about Einstein and the SD, go to: > > http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html > > LHM > > > In a message dated 08/01/02 7:25:26 AM, dalval14@earthlink.net writes: > > >Aug 1 2002 > > > >Dear Ian: > > > >Einstein did indeed have a much used copy of The SECRET > >DOCTRINE on his desk at Princeton University. > > > >After his death his daughter (I believe) visited Adyar and > >gave their library the book he had used with all his notes > >in it. > > > >Best wishes, > > > >Dal > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From Nisk98114@aol.com Sat Aug 03 05:49:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 12:49:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 45391 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 12:49:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 12:49:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 12:49:54 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.134.1247fc4b (4539) for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 08:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <134.1247fc4b.2a7d2b61@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 08:49:37 EDT Subject: sum humor To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 87 From: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84166184 Dallas writes; But the one question no one every fully answers is: "After you have accumulated money, power and ease, and come to the end of your life, what next ? Then again the vast shadow of mystery looms: what happens when this body dies and we are left naked without money, power, friends, servants, family ? Are we to be flayed or favored? (It is at this point that priesthood steps in with claims that are never verified.) ======================================= A boat had just docked at the boat ramp in a tiny Mexican village. An American tourist watched. He complimented the Mexican fisherman on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took him to catch them. "Not very long," answered the Mexican. "But then, why didn't you stay out longer and catch more?" asked the American. The Mexican explained that his small catch was sufficient to meets his needs and those of his family. The American asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?" "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, and take a siesta with my wife. In the evenings, I go into the village to see my friends, have a few drinks, play the guitar, and sing a few songs...I have a full life." The American interrupted, "I have an MBA from Harvard and I can help you! You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat. With the extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a third one and so on until you have an entire fleet of trawlers. Instead of selling your fish to a middle man, you can negotiate directly with the processing plants and even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village and move to Mexico City, Los Angles, or even New York City! From there you can direct your huge enterprise." "How long would that take?" asked the Mexican. "Twenty, perhaps twenty-five years," replied the American. "And after that?" "Afterwards? That's when it really gets interesting," answered the American, laughing. "When your business gets really big, you can start selling stocks and make millions!" "Millions? Really? And after that?" "After that you'll be able to retire, live in a tiny village near the coast, sleep late, play with your grandchildren, catch a few fish, take a siesta, and spend your evenings drinking and enjoying your friends." From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Sat Aug 03 06:53:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 13:53:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 7238 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 13:53:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 13:53:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.210) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 13:53:07 -0000 Received: from modem-3524.wolf.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.76.141.196] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17azL8-0007dD-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 14:53:06 +0100 Message-ID: <002801c23af5$8197c140$c1de883e@u0z2y2> To: References: <134.1247fc4b.2a7d2b61@aol.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 14:53:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae That's a story I intend to remember ! Oh, the truth of it ! Ian > ======================================= > A boat had just docked at the boat ramp in a tiny Mexican village. An > American tourist watched. He complimented the Mexican fisherman on the > quality of his fish and asked how long it took him to catch them. > "Not very long," answered the Mexican. > "But then, why didn't you stay out longer and catch more?" asked the > American. > The Mexican explained that his small catch was sufficient to meets his > needs > and those of his family. > The American asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?" > > "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, and take a siesta with > my wife. In the evenings, I go into the village to see my friends, have a > few drinks, play the guitar, and sing a few songs...I have a full life." > > The American interrupted, "I have an MBA from Harvard and I can help you! > You should start by fishing longer every day. You can then sell the extra > fish you catch. With the extra revenue, you can buy a bigger boat. With the > extra money the larger boat will bring, you can buy a second one and a > third > one and so on until you have an entire fleet of trawlers. Instead of > selling > your fish to a middle man, you can negotiate directly with the processing > plants and even open your own plant. You can then leave this little village > and move to Mexico City, Los Angles, or even New York City! From there you > can direct your huge enterprise." > "How long would that take?" asked the Mexican. > "Twenty, perhaps twenty-five years," replied the American. > "And after that?" > "Afterwards? That's when it really gets interesting," answered the > American, > laughing. "When your business gets really big, you can start selling stocks > and make millions!" > "Millions? Really? And after that?" > > "After that you'll be able to retire, live in a tiny village near the > coast, > sleep late, play with your grandchildren, catch a few fish, take a siesta, > and spend your evenings drinking and enjoying your friends." > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Aug 03 08:46:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 15:46:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 15475 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 15:46:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 15:46:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 15:46:14 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b16b-0005og-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 08:46:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4BFB08.7BB0DCAE@sprynet.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 11:47:20 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor References: <134.1247fc4b.2a7d2b61@aol.com> <002801c23af5$8197c140$c1de883e@u0z2y2> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Ian McRae wrote: > That's a story I intend to remember ! Oh, the truth of it ! That's the problem with getting an MBA from a school like Harvard. Now, if the man had gotten his MBA from a school like Pace, he would have told the fisherman that, by catching extra fish and saving, he can hedge his family against poor fishing seasons. By investing the money on extra boats, he can give friends and/or relatives who are honest but down on their luck a chance, by hiring them to run the fishing. At this point, the man can spend much MORE time doing what he enjoys, while the income comes in from his investments. On the other hand, some people are not suited to this kind of life; that's where you get your managers and workers. The fisherman, on the other hand, is already working for himself, and is therefore in a better position to profit from his labors than those who depend on others to eat. It's interesting how the left-wing attitudes at Harvard even affect their business school, to the point of teaching the students that they have no responsibility to the public in a business setting; that it is the government's job to protect the public. Bart Lidofsky From Drpsionic@aol.com Sat Aug 03 08:54:00 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 15:54:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 36020 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 15:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 15:53:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 15:53:59 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.16c.119259c7 (3932) for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <16c.119259c7.2a7d568f@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 11:53:51 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 From: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=755162 X-Yahoo-Profile: c_cosimano In a message dated 8/3/02 12:29:17 AM Central Daylight Time, bartl@sprynet.com writes: << The Sufi's and Kabballists might disagree with you. >> Well, let's see. Logic? Galen based his medical ideas on logic. Of course his ideas of medicine would get you killed if any doctor actually used them. And of course we must forget the crabbed ravings of Aquinas and his natural law nonsense, all perfectly logical. "Now, what do we burn besides witches?" "More witches?" "No no no! Wood. Now what floats?" "Wood?" "Exactly, so witches burn and float, therefore witches are made of wood!" Logic and truth are mutually exclusive commodities. Chuck From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Aug 03 12:55:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 19:55:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 84335 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 19:55:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 19:55:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d01.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.33) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 19:55:48 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.12d.15290c36 (4410) for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 15:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <12d.15290c36.2a7d8f3b@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 15:55:39 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Does Theosophy Have Core Doctrines? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 08/03/02 12:29:18 AM, bartl@sprynet.com (Bart Lidofsky) writes: >leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: >> Theosophy has logically unassailable "fundamental principles" or propositions > > The Sufi's and Kabballists might disagree with you. How so? In my experience, I have met Kabbalists and Sufis that disagree with each other as well as with Theosophists on a number of interpretive levels. But, I never heard of any logical disagreement on "fundamental principles." So, in your view, which one or more of the three theosophical propositions might they disagree with? Do they disagree with the Absolute, ineffable, divine origin of all "life" in the Cosmos? Do they disagree with the fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity? Do they disagree with the experiential purpose and evolution of Man's spiritual soul through all the kingdoms of nature to eventually return to the universal Spirit or Godhead? And, if there is such a disagreement -- would you kindly explain what are the "fundamental principles" or "truths" that they base their teachings on? LHM From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Aug 03 13:22:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 20:22:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 19256 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 20:22:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 20:22:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m05.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.8) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 20:22:48 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.25.2b8b923b (4410) for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <25.2b8b923b.2a7d9594@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:22:44 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 08/03/02 10:46:58 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >It's interesting how the left-wing attitudes at Harvard even affect >their business school, to the point of teaching the students that they >have no responsibility to the public in a business setting; that it is >the government's job to protect the public. Don't you mean "right"-wing? At least from a political point of view. ("Left" would make sense only from an occult point of view.) Seems that its typical of politics to "disinformationally" (coined nonpolitical and non-occult word :-) reverse the meaning of many potent mantric words. LHM From llkingston2@juno.com Sat Aug 03 15:18:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 22:18:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 14992 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 22:18:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 22:18:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.boston.juno.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 22:18:21 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8Zi+NgOwkbk43niHiA144gMT9NHQ/uQrcA=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G9BR73YU; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:18:06 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:08:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor Message-ID: <20020803.180804.-932233.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-37 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 Hi Leon, Would you run that by us a little more slowly and from a Theosophical point of view? I understand the "old" meanings of right and left as dexter and sinster. We have been using left-wing to denote the liberals and right-wing the conservatives for some time. Maybe Bart should have simply writen "the liberal attitudes at Harvard." Please elucidate. Larry On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:22:44 EDT leonmaurer@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 08/03/02 10:46:58 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: > > >It's interesting how the left-wing attitudes at Harvard even affect > >their business school, to the point of teaching the students that > they > >have no responsibility to the public in a business setting; that it > is > >the government's job to protect the public. > > Don't you mean "right"-wing? At least from a political point of > view. > ("Left" would make sense only from an occult point of view.) Seems > that its > typical of politics to "disinformationally" (coined nonpolitical and > > non-occult word :-) reverse the meaning of many potent mantric > words. > > LHM > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk Sat Aug 03 15:39:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ian.mcrae@rahoosie.fsnet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 22:39:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 40873 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 22:39:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 22:39:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk) (195.92.193.211) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 22:39:34 -0000 Received: from modem-920.zebra.dialup.pol.co.uk ([81.76.147.152] helo=u0z2y2) by cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17b7Ya-0006SF-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 23:39:33 +0100 Message-ID: <00f501c23b3f$0d12a7a0$c1de883e@u0z2y2> To: References: <20020803.180804.-932233.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 23:41:45 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Ian McRae" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=95060429 X-Yahoo-Profile: ianmcrae > Hi Leon, > > Would you run that by us a little more slowly and from a Theosophical > point of view? I understand the "old" meanings of right and left as > dexter and sinster. We have been using left-wing to denote the liberals > and right-wing the conservatives for some time. Maybe Bart should have > simply writen "the liberal attitudes at Harvard." Please elucidate. > > Larry Perhaps I'm a tad dense, but I can never quite understand what politics and Theosophy have in common. To me they seem mutually exclusive. Anyone care to enlighten me. Orra Best, Ian From llkingston2@juno.com Sat Aug 03 15:40:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: llkingston2@juno.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Aug 2002 22:40:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 83607 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2002 22:40:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2002 22:40:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO m15.boston.juno.com) (64.136.24.78) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Aug 2002 22:40:17 -0000 Received: from cookie.juno.com by cookie.juno.com for <"LDkflFr1fNHZC2Q+b68H8Zi+NgOwkbk4jtzkC4bHvkICq14zezqZKQ=="> Received: (from llkingston2@juno.com) by m15.boston.juno.com (jqueuemail) id G9BTFGCQ; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:39:37 EDT To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:29:31 -0400 Subject: left/right addendium Message-ID: <20020803.182933.-848801.0.llkingston2@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-5 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Larry F Kolts X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94871627 BTW The usage of left and right in politics comes from the European custom of seating the liberal, socialist, labor and radical parties (and now green?) to the Left of the speakers dias while the conservative and reactionary parties are relegated to the Right. Nothing more SINSTER than that. Larry ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Aug 03 17:14:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 00:14:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 6484 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 00:14:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 00:14:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 00:14:42 -0000 Received: from pool0040.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.188.40] helo=earthlink) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b92e-0005vN-00; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 17:14:40 -0700 To: "Morten Sufilight" Subject: RE: Theos-World Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] about SD Vol. III Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 17:12:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <009201c23ad5$be1530a0$fc92a483@opasia.dk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Aug 3 2002 Dear M S The letter from Subba Row is a bit long -- as most of his writings are, so with your permission I will make some extracts from it in the areas I thought were relevant. You must remember this is a copy of a typewritten letter and --- blessed be -- I can't find it. But I will search and when found I will send it on. No. I remember -- I lent it to a friend to read, and when it comes back I will copy parts of it and send it on to you. Dal So be patient with me. ------------------------------ -----Original Message----- From: Morten Sufilight [mailto:global-theosophy@adslhome.dk] Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 3:09 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Page 570 of THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT [1925 ed.] about SD Vol. III Hi Dallas and all of you, What ? Interesting. Dallas wrote: "By chance have you seen a letter from Subba Row reprinted in THE THEOSOPHICAL FORUM (Point Loma) Vol. VI. No. 7, March 15, 1935, pp 185 ... "Leaves from theosophical History" ? I find S. Rao gives some reasons for his reticence, and also gives some of the rather strict interpretations of discipline in the occult schools. Very curious reading.." Can we have that letter emailed - online - Dallas or is it to long ? from Sufilight with peace and love... From dennw3k@earthlink.net Sat Aug 03 17:21:24 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 00:21:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 11677 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 00:21:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 00:21:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 00:21:23 -0000 Received: from 1cust97.tnt34.lax3.da.uu.net ([67.224.28.97] helo=u7k5a4) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17b999-0003L4-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 17:21:23 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c23b4d$0fc0a840$611ce043@u7k5a4> To: References: <018501c238b9$4ce24e40$7d8787d9@u0z2y2> Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 17:49:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Dennis Kier" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=38993992 And, for still another "unbiased" perspective, try reading the THE UNFINISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF ALICE A. BAILEY, Pub. Lucis Publishing Co, New York, 1951. (by, Alice A. Bailey) This is an interesting book, and tells of the relationship with D.K. from her perspective, and in addition, it is available on CD, and on-line at www.lucistrust.org I am surprised that others who cited many sources, evidently didn't want you to concider this on-line source. Dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian McRae" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:39 AM Subject: Theos-World Dj. Khool > > "Well today Dj. Khool put in an appearance. . . . he told me that > > Master sent in a word for you, and me to tell you: > > A question, Daniel. > > Is this Dj. Khool the same person who was the inspiration for Alice Bailey ? > She spelled the full name as, "Djwhal Khul" > > I have often seen Alice Bailey referred to as a Theosophist. Anyone know > what connection she had with the TS ? She worked in the Hollywood (California) branch of the TS, and met her husband there, and was contacted by D.K. there for a series of books, (so she says). > > Orra Best, > Ian > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Aug 03 18:36:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 01:36:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 79500 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 01:36:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 01:36:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 01:36:40 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Aug 2002 01:36:40 -0000 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 01:36:39 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Unfinished Autobiography by Alice A. Bailey Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000201c23b4d$0fc0a840$611ce043@u7k5a4> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 447 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.166 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell You can read online The Unfinished Autobiography by Alice A. Bailey at: http://www.netnews.org/bk/autobiography/toc.html But one needs to compare and contrast what HPB wrote and taught with what AAB wrote and taught to know if there are the kind of differences discussed by Nicholas Weeks in his article at: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Aug 03 21:18:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 04:18:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 19129 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 04:18:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 04:18:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.87) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 04:18:54 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.134] by n30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Aug 2002 04:18:54 -0000 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 04:18:49 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Contents of SD Volume I in latter part of 1886 thru mid 1887 Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 6094 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.10.166 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Ian and Dallas et al, I would appreciate your comments on the following material that I have compiled to try to elucidate the problem surrounding the contents of=20 volume III of the SD. Daniel -------------------------------------------------------------------- In a letter dated September 23, 1886, H.P. Blavatsky in Ostende wrote=20 to Colonel Henry S. Olcott in India: I send you the MSS. of Secret Doctrine.....Now I send only 1st volume=20 of Introduct. Section.... There are in the 1st Introductory Vol.=20 Seven Sections or Chapt. =A7 and 27 Appendices, several App. attached to every Section from l to 6, etc. Now all this will make=20 either more or at any rate one volume and it is not the S.D. but a=20 Preface to it.... (The Theosophist, March 1925, p. 789.) But the manuscript of the first volume was not sent to India at that=20 time. The reason for this delay is described in a later letter from=20 Blavatsky to Olcott. (See HPB's letter dated Oct. 21, 1886 and=20 published in the March,1925 issue of The Theosophist on p. 787.) Finally sometime around Nov. 20th of the same year, Countess=20 Wachtmeister on a trip to London mailed the manuscript of volume I to=20 Henry Olcott in India. In Olcott's handwritten diary for Friday, Dec. 10, 1886, one finds the following excerpt: "Recd. MSS of Secret Doctrine, Vol. I. . . . " In his Annual Address delivered to the T.S. Convention at Adyar,=20 Madras, India on December 27, 1886, Colonel Olcott mentioned the=20 receipt of this Volume I manuscript: "The MSS. of the first volume has been sent me. . . .It will gratify=20 you to learn that it more than maintains her reputation for learning=20 and literary ability. . . . " (The Theosophist, Supplement, January=20 1887, pp. xx-xxi.) The next day in another address given at the opening of the Adyar=20 Libary, Olcott also spoke of the recently received volume I=20 manuscript: ". . . the entire MSS. of the first of five volumes that Madame=20 Blavatsky is now writing upon the Secret Doctrine, is in my hands;=20 and that even a cursory reading has satisfied better critics than=20 myself [T. Subba Row] that it will be one of the most important=20 contributions ever made to philsophical and scientific=20 scholarship. . . . " (The Theosophist, Supplement, January 1887, pp. xlvii. Sometime around December 15, after receiving the manuscript of Volume=20 I of the SD, Olcott wrote Madame Blavatsky telling her that the=20 manuscript had been received and that Subba Row had been reading the=20 manuscript. On January 4, 1887, H.P.B. wrote replying to Olcott's letter: "I am glad Subba Row likes my Proem. But it is only as Preliminary=20 Vol. and the real original doctrine is in the volume [two] I will=20 send you when Fawcett comes on the 20th and then he will take it to=20 England himself --- for I cannot send it or rather insure it from here [in Ostende]." The manuscripts of Volumes I and II as mentioned above are preserved=20 in the Adyar Archives. The partial contents of Volume I can be seen=20 in the following table: http://blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm Volume II of this manuscript consists of the Seven Stanzas of Dzyan on Cosmogony and HPB's Commentaries thereon. Only a few pages of Volume III is extant in the Adyar Archives. This=20 third "volume" deals with the Evolution of Humanity. So from a careful reading and study of HPB's own letters in 1886 and=20 1887 as well as from a careful analysis of the contents of the extant=20 SD manuscript in the Adyar Archives, one sees that in early 1887 the=20 SD was divided into the following three volumes: Volume I: A Historical Overview of Occultism and its Adepts, etc. [Note: HPB's letters written in 1886 given several descriptions of=20 the contents of this volume. See=20 http://blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiipt3.htm Compare these descriptions=20 with the actual extant contents of the first volume. See=20 http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm ] Volume II: Evolution of Cosmos as found in the Seven Stanzas of Dzyan Volume III: Evolution of Man (Humanity) as found in further Stanzas=20 of Dzyan Some months later when H.P. Blavatsky had moved to London, Bertram and Archibald Keightley had the privilege of going through the SD manuscript. Here are Bertram's relevant comments: "A day or two after our arrival at Maycot [in May, 1887], H.P.B.=20 placed the whole of the so far completed MSS. in the hands of Dr.=20 [Archibald] Keightley and myself....We both read the whole mass of=20 MSS.--a pile over three feet high--most carefully...and then, after=20 prolonged consultation, faced [HPB]...with the solemn opinion that=20 the whole of the matter must be rearranged on some definite plan...." "Finally we laid before her a plan, ...." ". . . instead of making the first volume to consist, as she had intended, of the history of some great Occultists, we advised her to=20 follow the natural order of exposition, and begin with the Evolution=20 of Cosmos, to pass from that to the Evolution of Man, then to deal=20 with the historical part in a third volume treating of the lives of=20 some great Occultists. . . .This plan was laid before H.P.B., and it=20 was duly sanctioned by her. . . . " [Quoted in Reminiscences of H. P.=20 Blavatsky and The Secret Doctrine, by Countess Constance Wachtmeister=20 et al., Quest edition, 1976, pp. 78-9.] So as Bertram Keightley tells us, the order of the volumes of The Secret Doctrine was rearranged in mid-1887. Volume I became Volume=20 III. AFTER the rearrangement in 1887, the volumes would have been listed as follows: Volume I: Evolution of Cosmos Volume II: Evolution of Man Volume III: History of Some Great Occultists In summary, the extant volume I of the SD manuscript preserved in the Adyar Archives is concrete evidence as to what was in volume I as of late 1886. An outline of that content can be seen in the table=20 already given above and which I give again: http://blavatskyarchives.com/sdiiitab.htm This is the same material and volumes seen by Bertram Keighley=20 several months later in London. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Aug 03 22:14:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 05:14:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 96894 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 05:14:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 05:14:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 05:14:29 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bDin-00034k-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 22:14:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4CB882.49197A6B@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 01:15:46 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor References: <25.2b8b923b.2a7d9594@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 08/03/02 10:46:58 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: > > >It's interesting how the left-wing attitudes at Harvard even affect > >their business school, to the point of teaching the students that they > >have no responsibility to the public in a business setting; that it is > >the government's job to protect the public. > > Don't you mean "right"-wing? No, I mean left wing. Although the actions recommended are thoroughly selfish, the basis of the actions is that people are not responsible for their actions; ultimately, the government is responsible for all. And if businessmen leave it up to the government to differentiate between right and wrong, the government may very well end up being forced to do so. Ultimately, very left-wing aims. Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Sat Aug 03 22:19:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 05:19:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 43250 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 05:19:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 05:19:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 05:19:30 -0000 Received: from evrtwa1-ar9-4-35-093-022.evrtwa1.dsl-verizon.net ([4.35.93.22] helo=sprynet.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17bDnd-0006jH-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 03 Aug 2002 22:19:29 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4CB9AF.E1A62707@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 01:20:47 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor References: <20020803.180804.-932233.0.llkingston2@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Larry F Kolts wrote: > and right-wing the conservatives for some time. Maybe Bart should have > simply writen "the liberal attitudes at Harvard." Please elucidate. No, it is not liberal; liberals believe that people should act according to their own sense of morality. It is the left wing who wishes to create situations that require that the government increase its level of power over the individual, to be the ultimate arbiter of right and wrong. Bart Lidofsky From leonmaurer@aol.com Sat Aug 03 23:04:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 06:04:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 53829 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 06:04:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 06:04:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 06:04:58 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v33.5.) id r.f4.1f7f7715 (3310) for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 02:04:52 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World sum humor To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 Larry, My comment was slightly tongue in cheek -- thinking that this was a theosophical discussion group, not a political one. But from a political point of view, I think Bart, in his answer to my question and your (left/right addendium) comment, covered it pretty well. However, from a theosophical view, don't we consider the black magicians -- vide; the current materialist concepts behind corporate greed promulgated by business schools (such as the one at Harvard) -- as being the "left hand" or "sinister" path? Since they also serve the "right wing" (conservatives) I thought the misdirection implied through the misuse of such potent mantric words in different contexts was worth pointing out as food for thought... (Don't we all write our comments hopefully for the benefit of the lurkers on these lists? :-) Leon In a message dated 08/03/02 5:19:03 PM, llkingston2@juno.com writes: >Hi Leon, > >Would you run that by us a little more slowly and from a Theosophical >point of view? I understand the "old" meanings of right and left as >dexter and sinster. We have been using left-wing to denote the liberals >and right-wing the conservatives for some time. Maybe Bart should have >simply writen "the liberal attitudes at Harvard." Please elucidate. > >Larry > >On Sat, 3 Aug 2002 16:22:44 EDT leonmaurer@aol.com writes: >> >> In a message dated 08/03/02 10:46:58 AM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >> >> >It's interesting how the left-wing attitudes at Harvard even affect >> >their business school, to the point of teaching the students that they >> >have no responsibility to the public in a business setting; that it is >> >the government's job to protect the public. >> >> Don't you mean "right"-wing? At least from a political point of view. >> ("Left" would make sense only from an occult point of view.) Seems >> that its typical of politics to "disinformationally" (coined nonpolitical >> and non-occult word :-) reverse the meaning of many potent mantric >> words. >> >> LHM >> From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Sun Aug 04 05:02:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Aug 2002 12:02:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 48964 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2002 12:02:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2002 12:02:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2002 12:02:43 -0000 Received: from morten (0x83a492fc.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.146.252]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id BD73A48044C for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:02:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001501c23bae$2090bd20$fc92a483@opasia.dk> To: References: <018501c238b9$4ce24e40$7d8787d9@u0z2y2> <000201c23b4d$0fc0a840$611ce043@u7k5a4> Subject: Re: Theos-World Dj. Khool - a useable SYSTEM ? Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 13:56:36 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Dennis and all, Dennis wrote the following about the "Unfinished Autobiography" by Alice A.= Bailey : "I am surprised that others who cited many sources, evidently didn't > want you to concider this on-line source." Well Dennis, then I am somewhat surprised, that you didn't read or print ou= t my email=20 August 1st 2002 here at Theos-talk. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7593 (email 7593) and the in the email linked article also posted at Theos-talk at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/4389 (email 4389) or http://home19.inet.tele.dk/global-theosophy/BLAVATSK.HTM (a newer versio= n) The article certainly mentions this Alice A. Bailey book. The following will maybe be of some help. I few days back I wrote the following in an email here at theos-talk: (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/7441) "Q: But surely there is a system? A: You do not know what a 'system' is. The work i