From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Jul 01 16:48:03 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 1 Jul 2002 23:48:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 18282 invoked from network); 1 Jul 2002 23:48:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jul 2002 23:48:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jul 2002 23:48:02 -0000 Received: from pool0199.cvx4-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.146.199] helo=earthlink) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PAtV-0003AD-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 19:47:45 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Color and Music Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:45:50 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 July 1 2002 Dear Friends: A simple test as t whether the Higher Manas ( Buddhi-Manas) or the Lower Manas ( Kama-Manas) might suggest that the use of the words Kama ( desire, passions & emotions ) or Buddhi ( virtue, discrimination and wisdom ) are working. The Inner self, the center of our eternal CONSCIOUSNESS is the Perceiver. It can determine what, and who is operating at any time in the mind. Of course our "mind" awake and active right now is Kama-Manas. To quiet Kama-Manas and secure control is a Buddhi-Manasic function. It has been described in terms of dispassion, equanimity, universality, and brotherhood to all beings. If operative, it takes all into account as living parts of the ONE UNIVERSE. To those who are imbued with the theological vocabulary, this is saying GOD. Or rather, the ubiquity (omnipresence) of the God principle. This makes it implicit that We are, in our innermost consciousness, a fragment of that ONE DIVINE. There is no separation, no imbalance, no higher or lower. In one aspect we can equate beauty as an ideal with harmony. It has to be dynamic since everything changes ( fast or slowly ). The One STABILITY is that which we conceive of as SPIRIT, as the HIGHEST GOOD. And THAT is one things that serves as a contrast with all the rest. Degrees of beauty or of discord and ugliness are matters of our personal make-up. We can use our likes and dislikes as impersonal mirrors of our "personality." It is how we view ourselves, and that is the lower the personal point of view. The HIGHER is always the Ideal. And often the personality denies that IDEAL. As to carrying it from life to life, is that not one of the duties of the "skandhas ?" But what are the "skandhas?" Are we not told they are Monads at lower levels of education and advancement, each one being an immortal, and all progressing along with each other in various ways inter-related and cooperative. The Real ruler of the Worlds of the Universe is the impersonal Law of Karma ( or God immanent in its OMNIPOTENT quality ). But for such extreme accuracy, where all living "lives" or "atoms" are considered, there has also to be OMNIPRESENCE -- the God quality present in every one without exception. OMNISCIENCE is the quality of being CONSCIOUS. One might say succinctly: the UNIVERSE is embodied CONSCIOUSNESS. It is also significant that the action of the Higher Mind, of Buddhi-Manas always involves synthesis, or the consideration of all relevant factors. The action of the Lower Mind ( Kama-Manas ) always involves analysis, separation, division, and an emphasis on differences rather than on similarities. It is the method of thought and making conclusions most frequently met with in daily life all around us. But, it is significant in Theosophical Philosophy and metaphysics, that the unifying quality expressed by BROTHERHOOD -- as a kind of mantram -- draws lour attention back to the unit as its participation, of necessity in the whole, of the dynamic quality of this participation, and of the total educational progression of al being working and living together as eternal immortals do. Now the question is: Is this a useful depiction of the situation we are all in? Can we use it as a basis for disciplining, evaluating and controlling our personal reactions? Can the Higher Mind ( Buddhi Manas ) be encouraged to become the true actor in each of us ? Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Larry F Kolts Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 7:38 AM To: Subject: Color and Music Very interesting and informative discussion this past week on color and music. Once again, it is good to see someone else carrying the ball with discussion once in a while. Christina's original post carried with it questions on whether certain types of music were more beneficial than others. We have seen that color has been used to help control prisoners. red was found to have an exciting effect on humans while blue has a calming effect. Music can "sooth the savage beast" or can enrage him. What interests me is that the identical music seems to have different effects on different persons. One sits enraptured at an opera while another gets a headache. One is calmed by rock music (my wife) while another (me) is revolted. One is soothed by country music while another hears only discord. Beyond this, what is it in us that responds to beauty? What is beauty anyway? Why does one find something beautiful while another perceives the same thing as ugly? Is this just something environmental from this life or is it something we carry with us from life to life? Is it the higher or lower self at work here? Any ideas? Larry From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Mon Jul 01 20:16:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 03:16:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 48217 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 03:16:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m9.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 03:16:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.30) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 03:16:05 -0000 Received: from [169.197.9.51] by mail.san.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:17:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:17:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3D064A9E000127EE@mta05.san.yahoo.com> Subject: Blavatsky and the Cup & Saucer Materialization To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Blavatsky and the Cup & Saucer Materialization=20 Testimony of A. P. Sinnett,=20 October 3, 1880,=20 Simla, India=20 We set out at the appointed time next morning. We were originally to have been a party of six, but a seventh person joined us just before we started. After going down the hill for some hours a place was chosen in the wood near the upper waterfall for our breakfast: the baskets that had been brought with us were unpacked, and the servants at a little distance lighted a fire and set to work to make tea and coffee. Concerning this some joking arose over the fact that we had one cup and saucer too few, on account of the seventh person who joined us at starting, and some one laughingly asked Madame Blavatsky to create another cup and saucer. When Madame Blavatsky said it would be very difficult, but that if we liked she would try, attention was of course at once arrested. Madame Blavatsky, as usual, held mental conversation with one of the Brothers, and then wandered a little about in the immediate neighborhood of where we were sitting?that is to say, within a radius of half a dozen to a dozen yards from our picnic cloth?I closely following, waiting to see what would happen. Then she marked a spot on the ground, and called to one of the gentlemen of the party to bring a knife to dig with. The place chosen was the edge of a little slope covered with thick weeds and grass and shrubby undergrowth. The gentleman with the knife [Major Philip Henderson] tore up these in the first place with some difficulty, as the roots were tough and closely interlaced. Cutting then into the matted roots and earth with the knife, and pulling away the debris with his hands, he came at last, on the edge of something white, which turned out, as it was completely excavated, to be the required cup. A corresponding saucer was also found after a little more digging. Both objects were in among the roots, which spread everywhere through the ground, so that it seemed as if the roots were growing round them. The cup and saucer both corresponded exactly, as regards their pattern, with those that had been brought to the picnic, and constituted a seventh cup and saucer when brought back to where we were to have breakfast. Afterwards, when we got home, my wife questioned our principal khitmutgar as to how many cups and saucers of that particular kind we possessed. In the progress of years, as the set was an old set, some had been broken, but the man at once said that nine teacups were left. When collected and counted that number was found to be right, without reckoning the excavated cup. That made ten, and as regards the pattern, it was one of a somewhat peculiar kind, bought a good many years previously in London, and which assuredly could never have been matched in Simla. If the phenomenon was not what it appeared to be?a most wonderful display of a power of which the modern scientific world has no comprehension whatever?it was, of course, an elaborate fraud. That supposition will only bear to be talked of vaguely. The cup and saucer were assuredly dug up in the way I describe. If they were not deposited there by occult agency, they must have been buried there beforehand. Now, I have described the character of the ground from which they were dug up; assuredly that had been undisturbed for years by the character of the vegetation upon it. But it may be urged that from some other part of the sloping ground a sort of tunnel may have been excavated in the first instance through which the cup and saucer could have been thrust into the place where they were found. If the tunnel had been big enough for the purpose, it would have left traces, which were not perceptible on the ground?which were not even discoverable when the ground was searched shortly afterwards with a view to that hypothesis. But the truth is that the theory of previous burial is untenable in view of the fact that the demand for the cup and saucer?of all the myriad things that might have been asked for?could never have been foreseen. It arose out of circumstances themselves the sport of the moment. If no extra person had joined us at the last moment, the number of cups and saucers packed up by the servants would have been sufficient for our needs, and no attention would have been drawn to them. It was by the servants, without the knowledge of any guest, that the cups taken were chosen from others that might just as easily have been taken. Had the burial fraud been really perpetrated, it would have been necessary to constrain us to choose the exact spot we did actually choose for the picnic with a view to the previous preparations, but the exact spot on which the ladies? jampans were deposited was chosen by myself in concert with [Mr. Henderson], and it was within a few yards of this spot that the cup was found. Thus who could be the agents employed to deposit the cup and saucer in the ground, and when did they perform the operation? Madame Blavatsky was under our roof the whole time from the previous evening, when the picnic was determined on, to the moment of starting. The one personal servant she had with her, a Bombay boy and a perfect stranger to Simla, was constantly about the house the previous evening, and from the first awakening of the household in the morning. Colonel Olcott, also a guest of ours at the time, was certainly with us all evening and was also present at the start. To imagine that he spent the night in going four or five miles through forest paths difficult to find, to bury a cup and saucer of a kind that we were not likely to take, in a place we were not likely to go to, in order that in the exceedingly remote contingency of its being required for the perpetration of a hoax it might be there, would certainly be a somewhat extravagant conjecture. Another consideration?the destination for which we were making can be approached by two roads from opposite ends of the upper horseshoe of hills on which Simla stands. It was open to us to select either path, and certainly neither Madame Blavatsky nor Colonel Olcott had any share in the selection of that actually taken. Had we taken the other, we should never have come to the spot where we actually picnicked. [Mr. Henderson] had been a good deal with us during the week or two that had already elapsed since Madame Blavatsky?s arrival. Like many of our friends, he had been greatly impressed with much he had seen in her presence. He had especially come to the conclusion that the Theosophical Society was exerting a good influence with the natives. He had declared his intention of joining this Society as I had done myself. Now, when the cup and saucer were found most of us who were present, [Mr. Henderson] among the number, were greatly impressed, and in the conversation that ensued the idea arose that [Mr. Henderson] might formally become a member of the Society then and there. The proposal that [Mr. Henderson] should then and there formally join the Society was one with which he was quite ready to fall in. But some documents were required?a formal diploma, the gift of which to a new member should follow his initiation into certain little Masonic forms of recognition adopted in the Society. How could we get a diploma? Of course for the group then present a difficulty of this sort was merely another opportunity for the exercise of Madame?s powers. Could she get a diploma brought to us by "magic"? After an occult conversation with the Brother who had then interested himself in our proceedings, Madame told us that the diploma would be forthcoming. She described the appearance it would present?a roll of paper wound round with an immense quantity of string, and then bound up in the leaves of a creeping plant. We should find it about in the wood where we were, and we could all look for it, but it would be [Mr. Henderson], for whom it was intended, who would find it. Thus it fell out. We all searched about in the undergrowth or in the trees, wherever fancy prompted us to look, and it was [Henderson] who found the roll, done up as described. We had had our breakfast by this time. [Mr. Henderson] was formally "initiated" a member of the society by Colonel Olcott, and after a time we shifted our quarters to a lower place in the wood where there was the little Tibetan temple, or rest house. We amused ourselves by examining the little building inside and out, "bathing in the good magnetism," as Madame Blavatsky expressed it, and then, lying on the grass outside, it occurred to someone that we wanted more coffee. The servants were told to prepare some, but they had used up all our water. The water to be found in the streams near Simla is not of a kind to be used for purposes of this sort, and for a picnic, clean filtered water is always taken out in bottles. It appears that all the bottles in our baskets had been exhausted. This report was promptly verified by the servants by the exhibition of the empty bottles. The only thing to be done was to send to a brewery, the nearest building, about a mile off, and ask for water. I wrote a pencil note and a coolie went off with the empty bottles. Time passed, and the coolie returned, to our great disgust, without the water. There had been no European left at the brewery that day (it was a Sunday) to receive the note, and the coolie had stupidly plodded back with the empty bottles under his arm, instead of asking about and finding someone able to supply the required water. At this time our party was a little dispersed. [Mr. Henderson] and one of the other gentlemen had wandered off. No one of the remainder of the party was expecting fresh phenomena, when Madame suddenly got up, went over to the baskets, a dozen or twenty yards off, picked out a bottle?one of those, I believe, which had been brought back by the coolie empty?and came back to us holding it under the fold of her dress. Laughingly producing it, it was found to be full of water. Just like a conjuring trick, will someone say? Just like, except for the conditions. For such a conjuring trick, the conjurer defines the thing to be done. In our case the want of water was as unforeseeable in the first instance as the want of the cup and saucer. The accident that left the brewery deserted by its Europeans, and the further accident that the coolie sent up for water should have been so stupid to come back without, because there happened to be no European to take my note, were accidents but for which the opportunity for obtaining the water by occult agency could not have arisen. And those accidents supervened on the fundamental accident, improbable in itself, that our servants should have sent us out insufficiently supplied. That any bottle of water could have been left unnoticed at the bottom of the baskets is a suggestion that I can hardly imagine any one present putting forward, for the servants had been found at fault with for not bringing enough; they had just before had the baskets completely emptied out, and we had not submitted to the situation till we had been fully satisfied that there really was no more water left. Furthermore, I tasted the water in the bottle Madame Blavatsky produced, and it was not water of the same kind as that which came from our own filters. It was an earthy-tasting water, unlike that of the modern Simla supply, but equally unlike, I may add, though in a different way, the offensive and discolored water of the only stream flowing through those woods. How was it brought? The fact is there whether we can explain it or not. The rough, popular saying that you cannot argue the hind leg off a cow, embodies a sound reflection, which our prudent skeptics in matters of the kind with which I am now dealing are too apt to overlook. You cannot argue away a fact by contending that by the light in your mind it ought to be something different from what it is. Still less can you argue away a mass of facts like those I am now recording by a series of extravagant and contradictory hypotheses about each in turn. What the determined disbeliever so often overlooks is that the skepticism which may show an acuteness of mind up to a certain point, reveals a deficient intelligence when adhered to in face of certain kinds of evidence. [Mr. Henderson], I should add here, afterwards changed his mind about the satisfactory character of the cup phenomenon, and said he thought it vitiated as a scientific proof by the interposition of the theory that the cup and saucer might have been thrust up into their places by means of a tunnel cut from a lower part of the bank. I have discussed that hypothesis already, and mention the fact of [Mr. Henderson?s] change of opinion, which does not affect any of the circumstances I have narrated, merely to avoid the chance that readers might think I was treating the change of opinion in question as something which it was worth while to disguise. Quoted from: Sinnett, A. P. The Occult World. London: Trubner & Co., 1881, pp. 66?84.=20 [Note: The above extracts have been transcribed from the original source but material not relevant to the subject has been silently deleted. The original texts, however, can be found from the bibliographical reference. Explanatory words added by the editor are enclosed within brackets.] Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. From dhyana@web.de Tue Jul 02 05:57:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 39900 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:30 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g62CvRu07424 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:27 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g62CvPc07406 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:26 +0200 Message-ID: <000b01c221c8$07d6f920$c7de603e@captaink> To: References: <3D1E7B44.68BF7035@sprynet.com> <005601c22091$317393c0$9bde603e@captaink> <3D1FB267.91A00DDD@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Unit 101 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:00:44 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >Explain these acts. Bart, I try. You say that the slaughter of the family was not a crime as Israel considered it to be an act of war. My question is: Is the same standard of judging applicable to a similar case (if it be), when the Jews were the victims in the Third Reich? And if not, where is the difference in both cases from a theosophical, ethical point of view? This is a serious question to me. Very often one can see that equal things which happen in human history are judged different, depending of the belonging to an ideology, to a creed, to a race and it is not judged from the unity of life which makes not such discrimination. Frank. From dhyana@web.de Tue Jul 02 05:57:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 39924 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:30 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g62CvQY07411 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:26 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g62CvOc07398 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:24 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:55:50 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Steve: There is a slight inconsistency in your argument if I understand it correctly. There seem to be three facts here: (1) Stalin's USSR posed a realistic threat to Germany in the thirties, as you yourself state, (2) Hitler dealt with that in a manner which led to disastrous snip Frank: There is no inconsistency. Who installed the Bolshevists in SU? And who installed the Nazis in Germany? If you find the answer then there is no inconsistency anymore, only logic. HPB reports that the plot in Russia was launched by the Rothschild bank in New York (B:CW III, 164). The Prussian secretary of the Interior of the 1920's was collecting a huge bulk of information about the Hitler gang and who paid them. His files had many primary sources saying it was the Rothschild bank in New York. After 1945 this files were last time seem in Switzerland and are now declared as missing. US companies like General Motors or Ford sold many military invironments to Hitler's Germany, at least up to 1942. After 1945 the German elite was brought to USA to work there, among them Gestapo chief Mueller, who rebuilt the OSS to the CIA in 1948. Later on the alien UFO stories were created by FBI and CIA to cover up the continuance of very human research on outer space vehicles. Top Secret US files on the Mueller case confirm that. Steve: Poland at the end of the first World War. You make it clear you would not have wanted to be on the eastern side of the Berlin Wall, so are you saying you would have been happy to be on the western side of an Atlantic wall? Frank: Yes. It was far better to live in the American sector as in the Soviet one. From dhyana@web.de Tue Jul 02 05:57:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 91123 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:35 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g62CvSf07448 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:28 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g62CvQc07420 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:26 +0200 Message-ID: <000c01c221c8$0864e140$c7de603e@captaink> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:40:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de ----- Original Message ----- From: "stevestubbs" To: Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 3:11 AM Subject: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Frank: "In my country there are standing 400 US atomic bombs. It has been said the US are our friends and they help us, they protect us against the evil (in the last decades it was the Rockefeller SU, who is next?). Steve:There is a slight inconsistency in your argument if I understand it correctly. There seem to be three facts here: (1) Stalin's USSR posed a realistic threat to Germany in the thirties, as you yourself (snip) Frank: As the USSR is no longer an enemy, the USA can now withdraw the atom bombs, don't? For what reason they are still here? Officially, German is regarded as a "free" (free of what?) land. Would an American call his land free if Chinese atom bomb would stand in his land? From dhyana@web.de Tue Jul 02 05:57:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 56762 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 12:57:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 12:57:47 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g62CvY007536 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:34 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-199.blinx.de [62.96.222.199]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g62CvTc07466 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:57:30 +0200 Message-ID: <000e01c221c8$0a5343c0$c7de603e@captaink> To: References: <14c.fd16d2e.2a482068@aol.com> <005c01c21b76$7b4670a0$d1de603e@captaink> <4.2.2.20020624081319.00b084a0@mail.gbronline.com> <3D17532C.E7DA33@sprynet.com> <001b01c21ec2$42ce4be0$c2de603e@captaink> <3D1C9434.AB79AFDC@sprynet.com> <003001c21fa7$1dc75f40$f7de603e@captaink> <3D1E73D7.F170FDB1@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Some words of Mahatma Gandhi on the Jews Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:32:57 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Bart: As I am not psychic, and cannot read minds, please enlighten me as to the thoughts of Blavatsky, Judge, and Tingley. Frank: Mmmh. OK, I close my house and turn out my phone for sixth months and write three big essays on all three theosophists. Seriously, I think you are old enough to study them for yourself and have better access in your country as I in mine to the sources. Even if I would been able to tell you all they taught, it would be only second knowledge to you and you doubts would remain. F.e. you can take the index of B:CW and take a look under Jews, Israel, Socialists, Aryan etc. There is a sentence of HPB: "The Jews handed down their black magic to the Jesuits", which seems not to be indexed and I cannot find the Vol. and page at present; it was left and above. That HPB says that the Jesuits were an Jewish enterprise makes sense from viewing other sources. Benjamin Disraeli liked to say that Christianity is Judaism for non-Jews. So the hidden vatican of the Jews may regard the outer vatican of the Christ as their exoteric mass play and it seems one time necessary for them to take over the control. When the Jesuits came into the picture, Germany was on target and they tried to rub it out as it was there were the reformation and the fight against untrue dogmas began. The remission of punishment, or the more you pay, the more God love you was invented (why does this remind on Leadbeater?), the inquisition was terrible for many free thinking people. On the Versailles treaty against Germany the Jews appeared first time as a nation on the scene and the Jewish nation (!) demanded also satisfaction from Germany which resulted in common German-Palestine projects in the 1920's. Hitler did only continue this projects and he was in no way the inventor of the Jews-go-to-Palestine policy. Interestingly, in The Theosophical Path of 1919 under Katherine Tingley there appeared some articles raising this question. The Versailles treaty and Wilson's policy (which changed quickly after he re ceived letters from the Grand Lodge of the Orient in Paris, which letters are known are printed in books) were much critized by KT. Also a subliminal warning to the Freemasons was addressed in one article of 1919. A septenary circle later, in 1926, Gottfried von Purucker (he used to spell his name in German style up to the catastrophic events on the failed new world HQ in Germany) in a book review demanded the Allied to give back German the stolen colonies, as this would be in to the interest of all. I read this demand in that sense that it would have changed the heating political atmosphere in Germany and would have Hitler give no opportunity to have success in election campaigns. Purucker writes that in every land the British occupied the culture was destroyed and the land was going down cultural and econonimal and that with the German colonies it was vice versa, they built schools, educated the people and made treaties on fair trade (the German colonies were launched by free treaties and not by soldiers, the reason why up to the present day the ex colonies demand the German to come back, which is not the case with the British). Purucker says clearly that the term Israel was never coined onto a certain race, "The Esoteric Tradition," p. 1089, Fn. 462. Richard Harte, then secretary to the Theos. Publ. Soc. in London, wrote in 1888 in his introduction to The Hebrew Talisman similar, when he discusses the "Jewish question"!! Another hint that this term in no way was an invention of the Nazis. As I wrote before even Karl Marx used this term in his 1848 article which I have before me. I believe that HPB agreed with Harte's hard views of the Jews, the Jewish question and Palestine as the so-called Promised Land. There are several instances were HPB not agreed with published opinions and wrote in turn on it. In 1888 when Harte wrote about the Jews HPB was relatively eager, but no protest ever appeared. BTW, not all the Jews may have been sure about the Promised Land question when one time they tried to launch a Jewish state on the Eastcoast of the USA, I think it was early 19th C. Harte writes: "To the theosophist, however, Jerusalem, even Judea, is not teh whole of this earth, nor this earth the whole Universe. And a higher guidance than that by human will in the case of the Jews, does not imply a monopoly of divine solicitude for one little tribe of people, nor a monopoly of power and wisdom for the celestial being who has chosen them for his special favour. If it be true that the affairs of the Jewish race are under higher guidance, then logic and justice require us to believe that asimilar guidance is vouchsafed to all mankind, and to the inhabitants of the myriad worlds that roll in space. .... Far lower in the scale of existence there are powers, personal and non-eternal, creatures who had a beginning and will have an end. Men call these lower fashioning powers collectively a personal God... Is one of these powers, the Jehovah of the ancient Hebrews, now pulling the wires that attach his peopleto him, and turning their steps towards the "promised land" once more? It is said that wealthy Jewish bankers have at this moment actual legal right of possession to Palestine, holding it in mortage from the Sultan...." Before that Harte writes: "Could anyone but a child imagine for an instant that so thoroughly practical a people as the Jews, a race, moreover, pre-eminently fond of the luxuries of life, would voluntarily abandon the various countries which centuries have been their homes, abandon their hereditary occupations, abandon civilization, and undertake the frightful labour of reclaiming a rocky and arid district, a labour from which even back-woods pioneers inured to hardship would shrink - and all for a religio-sentimental idea?" Here you have the RATIONALE why anti-semitism in Russia, Germany, Poland, Britain, France and USA was necessary. Harte speaks of a "plot" which means that human intellect directed the circumstances for psychical or sentimental purposes which are in direct opposition to the First Aim of the TS - consequently, in §5 of the controversially "Protocols" an organization is mentioned to tried to fight the plot. The Holocaust was necessary to fulfill the prophecy of Jehovah at the end of the times which was mid of the 20th Century to the Jews. There are sources that confirm that the installment of both Stalin and Hitler goes back to the Rothschild empire in New York. And what about the World Trade Center? Did it not belong to the Rockefeller direction? Does the Rockefeller clan support the religio-sentimental idea of the Promised Land in Palestine or are they "wordly" Jews who want to live in the country in which they are born? Could it be that the present crisis is in its origin also an inner Jewish crisis? The clever Jewish elite has twisted the meaning of "Revelation" in order to convince certain Christians that Jesus Christ wants them to support Israel against the Palestinians and it looks like many are falling for the "diabolical" scheme, including the Jews, who are the first victims of that dugpa spirit as Rudolf Steiner explained in 1917 in his comments on the First Zionist Congress 20 years before in 1897. Steiner also predicted that soon after 2000 the USA will try to stop free thinking in all over the world. It is been said that all the world news are spread only by five or so news agencies, so it would be an easy task to control the masses. And that all for psychical purposes. From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Jul 02 08:22:40 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 15:22:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 47438 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 15:22:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 15:22:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp6.mindspring.com) (207.69.200.110) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 15:22:39 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PPUC-0007u2-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:22:36 -0400 Message-ID: <3D21C561.7D8AA514@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 11:23:13 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Unit 101 References: <3D1E7B44.68BF7035@sprynet.com> <005601c22091$317393c0$9bde603e@captaink> <3D1FB267.91A00DDD@sprynet.com> <000b01c221c8$07d6f920$c7de603e@captaink> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > > >Explain these acts. > > Bart, I try. You say that the slaughter of the family was not a crime as > Israel considered it to be an act of war. I said nothing of the sort. All I said is that there is disagreement as to whether it should be classified as a crime or an act of war, and Israel considered it to be an act of war. At no point did I say what I considered it to be. Therefore, you are starting off from a false premise. > My question is: Is the same standard of judging applicable to a similar case > (if it be), when the Jews were the victims in the Third Reich? And if not, > where is the difference in both cases from a theosophical, ethical point of > view? And I am asking what is this "similar case"? Can you show me what documents or claims there are by Jews in Germany stating that their goal was the destruction of Germany and the destruction of the German people, as there were in the Jordanian and Palestinian communities? > This is a serious question to me. Very often one can see that equal things > which happen in human history are judged different, depending of the > belonging to an ideology, to a creed, to a race and it is not judged from > the unity of life which makes not such discrimination. Pushing an old lady out of the way of a moving car is not the same thing as a pushing an old lady into the path of a moving car, in spite of the claims of the advocates of "moral equivalency". Bart Lidofsky From global-theosophy@adslhome.dk Tue Jul 02 09:35:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: global-theosophy@adslhome.dk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 16:35:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 53745 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 16:35:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 16:35:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pfepa.post.tele.dk) (193.162.153.2) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 16:35:22 -0000 Received: from st (0x83a4937c.arcnxx9.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk [131.164.147.124]) by pfepa.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A58C4806E5 for ; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:35:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <001901c221e5$e07e5bc0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> To: References: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:31:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: "Morten Sufilight" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=106996622 X-Yahoo-Profile: kidhr7 Hi Frank and all, I agree a lot on the below Frank. Do you have a link or some documentation on this statement ?: "Top Secret US files on the Mueller case confirm that." A view: The title of the previous email was : "Germany: to protect or not to protec= t?" And I ask against who - the Sufis ? Allright I know, I maybe am a little bit silly. Today we witness the political leadership of USA apparently getting slowly = transferred to the new expanding EU. Because of the crisis in or at the Mid= dle East and USA's position supporting the Jews, USA as an more or less agr= ressive victim for terrorists - the new EU (with Polen and other countries = coming up) will for the moment (or a longer period of time) it seems take o= n a more active role in the peacemaking, while Russia with its low finances= and internal struggles is standing on the sideline. With a new EU, which will have reinforced borders to keep so-called unwante= d foreigners from coming in - and the wanted ones - the educated ones being= allowed in. We will eventually witness a new kind of fake? Osmannic EU-kin= gdom - a sort of new twisted Cordoba or Toledo, where culture and science o= nes more can 'prosper'. Even so the socalled democratic countries of EU are struggling with interna= l problems. The many foreigners, which already lives within EU-countries su= ddenly has become a problem. They do NOT live like the ordinary average EU-= citizens, they often have a different religion Islam and worse they get MOR= E kids than they white race ! And the white race of EU wants those foreigners integrated according with T= HEIR laws (socalled non-religious ones) and THEIR average livestyle while c= laiming them or that to be better. And some of the fast children-growing fo= reigners (of islamic kind?)wants a totally different system - a religious-p= olitical system to emerge whitin EU. Well, is it not just great ? And that = in an information society. What do you readers want ? Theosophy at the sideline ?=20 A Theosophy lacking knowledge of the Middle East and the Sufis ? (Their names in the Himalaya of HPB near Afghanistan and Hindu Kush was Khw= ajagan or Khwajah (i.e. "The Master(s)") at least since the 10th century un= til today. There are still groups bearing that name. Khwajah 'Abdallah al-Ansari, an important Hanbali Sufi author and saint, di= ed in the 481 AH / 1089 AD. His tomb in Herat, Afghanistan, continues to be= an important pilgrimage site. He wrote a number of treatises in both Arabi= c and Persian.) =20 from M. Sufilight ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? > Steve: > There is a slight inconsistency in your argument if I understand it > correctly. There seem to be three facts here: (1) Stalin's USSR > posed a realistic threat to Germany in the thirties, as you yourself > state, (2) Hitler dealt with that in a manner which led to disastrous > snip >=20 > Frank: > There is no inconsistency. Who installed the Bolshevists in SU? > And who installed the Nazis in Germany? > If you find the answer then there is no inconsistency anymore, only logic= . > HPB reports that the plot in Russia was launched by the Rothschild bank i= n > New York (B:CW III, 164). > The Prussian secretary of the Interior of the 1920's was collecting a hug= e > bulk of information about the Hitler gang and who paid them. His files ha= d > many primary sources saying it was the Rothschild bank in New York. > After 1945 this files were last time seem in Switzerland and are now > declared as missing. >=20 > US companies like General Motors or Ford sold many military invironments = to > Hitler's Germany, at least up to 1942. > After 1945 the German elite was brought to USA to work there, among them > Gestapo chief Mueller, who rebuilt the OSS to the CIA in 1948. Later on t= he > alien UFO stories were created by FBI and CIA to cover up the continuance= of > very human research on outer space vehicles. Top Secret US files on the > Mueller case confirm that. >=20 >=20 > Steve: > Poland at the end of the first World War. You make it clear you > would not have wanted to be on the eastern side of the Berlin Wall, > so are you saying you would have been happy to be on the western side > of an Atlantic wall? >=20 > Frank: > Yes. > It was far better to live in the American sector as in the Soviet one. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20=20 >=20 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/= =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Jul 02 11:42:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 18:42:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 31070 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 18:42:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 18:42:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 18:42:51 -0000 Received: from pool0133.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.152.133] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PSbw-0000Wl-00; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:42:48 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Color and Music Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 11:40:58 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 July 2 2002 Dear Friends: Might it not be that we actually receive in our sensorium, either physical or astral, an impact from any set of vibrations.? If so, then our individual ATTENTION has to be directed to the record made by our receptors, and then by an act of will we can decipher them -- if we have developed that detachment as well as acuity. But those may also be some of the attributes that disciples under the training of an Adept develop. The sine qua non is always, harmlessness. As I understand it, if true (or "white") Occultism, any power or faculty we may develop cannot be used for any personal benefit, but only, as an extension of our power to cooperate and to be of service (under Karma) to others. As I understand it, this requires a tremendous discrimination in the matter of what is "right" and "wrong." And I sense on the study of Theosophy that this is a fact that is emphasized repeatedly, but, not everyone seems to "get it." The lure for selfish powers which might be applied for personal benefit has a "grab" over many interested individuals. It is said that "Occultism" is neutral,. and the motive for its application makes an act, a feeling, or a thought potent for "good" or "evil." Hence the many warnings. Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: C. Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 10:05 PM To: Subject: RE: Color and Music Maybe we are tuned into certain frequencies; some sounds are resonant and some are dissonant to our body's frequency. But, we are able to change that through conscious or subconscious tuning. Naturally we tend toward a certain behavioral pattern [quiet, or nervous, or analytical, or gregarious, or introverted] Based on these internal tendancies, we experience differences in our external environmental processing. The more familiar we are with the myriad of internal and external combinations, the more modal we become. So, people who hone an eclectic taste in music seem to have the ability to adjust what they are attuned to in music, by adjusting their mood or thought. Just a guess! From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Jul 02 12:11:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 19:11:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 32918 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 19:11:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 19:11:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40013.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.53) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 19:11:05 -0000 Message-ID: <20020702191105.74120.qmail@web40013.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.232.46] by web40013.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 12:11:05 PDT Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001901c221e5$e07e5bc0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs Frank: "Who installed the Bolshevists in SU? My take on history was that the whole thing was rather complex. First there was the anarchist revolt against the Czar, then the disaffection of the Russian army against the mishandling of the war, then the Kerensky government, then the naval revolt, then Lenin (not to be confused with John Lennon) returning from exile in Switzerland, then the peace deal with Germany, etc. The people who benefitted were the Wilhelm government in Berlin, since they pacified their eastern front and acquired significant land from the deal with Lenin (again not to be confused with John Lennon, who had a nicer head of hair.) So if I followed the money I would say the Kaiser had a hand in it. Is that what you are getting at? Frank: "And who installed the Nazis in Germany? German politicians. He did not have a majority in the Rsichstag when he was installed chancellor. Frank: "If you find the answer then there is no inconsistency anymore, only logic. Maybe so, but I do not see it yet. Frank: "The Prussian secretary of the Interior of the 1920's was collecting a huge bulk of information about the Hitler gang and who paid them. His files had many primary sources saying it was the Rothschild bank in New York. Are you talking about the Dawes plan? Hitler threatened to hang anyone who voted for that once he took power. It carried anyway in a plebiscite and rescued the German economy from the runaway inflation of the early twenties. Unfortunately, the Wall Street crash of 1929 pulled the underpinning out from the German economy, but they did have better times from 1925 to 1929, By 1931 the German economy was again recovering and Nazi strength in the polls declining. Frank: "After 1945 this files were last time seem in Switzerland and are now declared as missing. I don't want to sound like a party pooper, but if your source cannot come up with an archive or manuscript number I would tend to wonder if he is being truthful. There were anyway all sorts of conspiracy theories in Germany in the twenties involving bankers. That does not mean they were true. Frank: "US companies like General Motors or Ford sold many military invironments to Hitler's Germany, at least up to 1942. There was a theory at one time that if countries became intertwined by economic ties the threat of war would be greatly reduced. That theory did not play out in practice. Frank: "After 1945 the German elite was brought to USA to work there, among them Gestapo chief Mueller, who rebuilt the OSS to the CIA in 1948. True that some SS intelligence people were employed after the war, but I am skeptical that Mueller built the CIA or even survived the conflict. It is also extremely unlikely that he would have been employed at such a high level in such a secretive agency. He was pushed out of the way when Himmler took over the Gestapo from the Interior Ministry and incorporated it into the SS, and that was long before the war started. After that he was pretty much a nonentity. Ditto with his boss Goering, who was marginalized more and more as time wore on. He ended up on heroin, was almost assassinated by the SS, etc. According to the memoir of Hans Gisevius, entitled TO THE BITTER END, Mueller's own men were constantly trying to assassinate him while he still had power. He left the office every night walking warily down the back stairs, his back to the wall and a loaded pistol in his hand. Being Gestapo chief was a real bitch of a job. Frank: "It was far better to live in the American sector as in the Soviet one. Then you must agree that the existence of such a sector served your interest, which means you must think it was in your interest that the westward expansion of the Soviet empire was halted by the postwar security arrangements. After 1952 Germany played an important role in those very arrangements, although they had the geographical misfortune of being on the front line of any battle that might break out. With the development of ICBMs the entire western world became a front line. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Jul 02 12:15:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 19:15:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 40923 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 19:15:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 19:15:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40017.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.57) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 19:15:36 -0000 Message-ID: <20020702191536.72007.qmail@web40017.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.232.46] by web40017.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 12:15:36 PDT Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Do ten people a movement make? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001901c221e5$e07e5bc0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs The following from THE JERUSALEM POST: Israeli Muslims launch opposition to Islamists LAUREN GELFOND Jul. 1, 2002 Ten Muslims from villages in the Galilee have launched the first Orthodox Muslim movement in the region to oppose Muslim militancy and extremism. Calling themselves The Prophetic Tradition Helpers Association (PTHA), their goals include providing a platform for moderation and nonviolence and educating the Muslim public about how extremists are misinterpreting Orthodox Islam. "We have watched the situation deteriorate at the hands of extremists," said Khalid Abu Ras of Ilut, near Nazareth, an Arabic teacher and founding member. "We are unhappy that they talk in the name of Islam, and we think their stands are wrong. They are hurting Islam and our people." The group is the first to publish an anti-extremist essay in Arabic from a religious point of view. A recent op-ed in the Arabic daily Al-Ayn told a parable of warring brothers in ancient times who learned to build bridges instead of fences. It went on to explain Islamic teachings that urge tolerance, dialogue, nonviolence, and moderation. Another essay is scheduled to run in Al-Ayn today, citing Sunni scholars who forbid the widespread use of the word heretic being used to discredit those Muslims who hold moderate ideas. The group is working to publish other documents in Arabic and plans to hold talks in Arab villages across Israel. "People think all Muslims are the same, but they are wrong. So many people disagree with the extremists, but they have nowhere to speak. We want to give them a voice," Abu Ras said. PTHA stands apart from those Muslims included on a list of Palestinians who published an ad in mid-June opposing terror attacks, saying they undermine Palestinian aspirations. Rather than focusing on political efficacy, PTHA looks at extremist activities through a moral lens, based on what they call misunderstood Koranic tradition. "They base their approach on solid religious text," said Yehuda Stolov, the Orthodox Jewish director of the Interfaith Encounter Association. "They are combating negative attitudes that come out of Islam from within. That gives them a lot of strength that other groups don't have." Although PTHA will also focus on developing relations with Jewish and Christian groups, like dozens of Muslims involved in interfaith and coexistence activities here, it is the only such group to be Muslim-based and founded, with a primary focus on internal dialogue, education, and change in Muslim society. Rabbi Dov Maimon, who is familiar with the group, described its launch as an "intellectual war" against extremism. "We never imagined such an effort. It is very real, very impressive, very brave, and for them, very dangerous." Rabbi Shmuel Slotsky also supports the groups' efforts but is more cautious. "It seems like a drop in the sea. But I hope it helps they are a good group of people and we must support them." Among the group's founders are nine men, including a journalist, a Sufi sheikh, educators, and merchants, and one woman, a homemaker. They claim supporters across Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel, and the US. "I have more than 100 students and imams who study Islam with me and support our ideas from a religious point of view," says Sheikh Abdel al-Salaam Menasra of Nazareth. "We agree that we have to be moderate not hard-hearted, that we have to understand the other, that we must speak out for what we believe and not sell ourselves. Now we are working to spread the word." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Jul 02 12:37:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 19:37:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 5433 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 19:37:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 19:37:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tisch.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.157) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 19:37:49 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PTTA-0004pp-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:37:48 -0400 Message-ID: <3D220132.7118D980@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:38:26 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Do ten people a movement make? References: <20020702191536.72007.qmail@web40017.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > Calling themselves The Prophetic Tradition Helpers > Association (PTHA), their goals include providing a > platform for moderation and nonviolence and educating > the Muslim public about how extremists are > misinterpreting Orthodox Islam. I have a number of Muslim friends, who all have been saying pretty much the same thing. Do I wish there were more like them on both sides of the conflict. By the way, on an unrelated note, I finally read some information that puts the Jonathan Pollard case into perspective. Apparently, he and his wife came out with a lot of public, anti-American statements in between his guilty plea and sentencing, which alienated not only the prosecution, but his own lawyer. So, when the prosecution illegally voided the plea bargain, his lawyer purposely sabotaged his case by not filing the appeal in the legally required time (and, in what is truly a case of an unjust law, there is NO excuse that is legally acceptable for filing an appeal late, even if it is the result of criminal collusion between the prosecution and the defense). In other words, Jonathan Pollard got a life sentence not because of anti-Semitism or secret agendas, but because of a combination of technicalities in the law and the fact that he was a first-class jerk. While this information comes from his current lawyer, I find this MUCH more believable than any of the other stories I have heard. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Jul 02 14:35:08 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 21:35:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 3009 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 21:35:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 21:35:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40008.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.26) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 21:35:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20020702213507.20955.qmail@web40008.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.232.159] by web40008.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:35:07 PDT Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000c01c221c8$0864e140$c7de603e@captaink> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > As the USSR is no longer an enemy, the USA > can now withdraw the atom > bombs, don't? > For what reason they are still here? I do not know why they are still there. I do know that Germany can evict NATO forces just as the French did if they deem that the presence of such forces is no longer essential to providing national security. Perhaps they think the situation to the east is still unstable, which is a reasonable perception. You'll have to ask your politicians. Henry Kissinger (who was originally a German) believed it unwise for Germany to develop a nuclear arsenal of its own because that would (he believed) lead to a new Hitler. Maybe that opinion is shared by German policy makers. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Tue Jul 02 16:35:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 2 Jul 2002 23:35:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 43173 invoked from network); 2 Jul 2002 23:35:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jul 2002 23:35:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40002.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.20) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jul 2002 23:35:24 -0000 Message-ID: <20020702233524.21698.qmail@web40002.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.231.74] by web40002.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 02 Jul 2002 16:35:24 PDT Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Do ten people a movement make? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3D220132.7118D980@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > I have a number of Muslim friends, who all have > been saying pretty much > the same thing. Do I wish there were more like them > on both sides of the > conflict. If it is not true, as some imams have instructed us, that Islam requires its followers to slaughter the infidel, then it is the responsibility of those who know better to enlighten the rest of us, including non Muslims. By doing so they serve their own interest as well as ours. As for the Palestinian Arabs, it is apparent at this point the ONLY way they can serve their own legitimate self interest is by forming an alliance with the Palestinian Jews. What is regrettably less clear to a lot of people is that the converse is also true. As for Pollard, though, I thought he was simply a spy and reaped the reward of spying and getting caught. People who are entrusted with secret information are briefed with fire and brimstone lectures before any information is given to them, so there is no way he can reasonably say he was unaware that what he was doing was imprisonable. The religious argument he and his wife advanced is mooted by the fact that he was clearly motivated by money. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Tue Jul 02 22:08:36 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 05:08:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 90666 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 05:08:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 05:08:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.30) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 05:08:36 -0000 Received: from [169.197.11.247] by mail.san.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:07:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:07:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3D0E4FB90000EDDC@mta07.san.yahoo.com> Subject: H.P. Blavatsky's Major Works To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell H.P. Blavatsky's Major Works One can read various and often conflicting interpretations of Madame Blavatsky's teachings, but the best way to understand and appreciate H.P.B.'s views and teachings is to actually read and study her books. For various editions of Madame Blavatsky's major works, see: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/bookstore.htm Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. =20 From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Jul 03 07:47:57 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 14:47:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 49916 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 14:47:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 14:47:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 14:47:55 -0000 Received: from mkr [209.12.91.52] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id AE3D97A4004A; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:46:21 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020703094340.00b5fc50@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:47:47 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis In-Reply-To: <001901c221e5$e07e5bc0$7c93a483@stofanet.dk> References: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 At 06:31 PM 7/2/02 +0200, Morten Sufilight wrote: >Theosophy at the sideline ? Right question. In the early days, theosophists took active interest on various issues relating to the welfare of the oppressed people and espoused causes which were not politically correct at that time. But things changed. May be it is time for theosophists to stand up and do what they can to alleviate those suffering masses. This can be done concurrent with other studies and discussions and spiritual practices. mkr From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Jul 03 07:54:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 14:54:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 28014 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 14:54:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 14:54:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 14:54:17 -0000 Received: from mkr [209.12.91.52] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id AFAF67640070; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:52:31 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020703095104.00a38420@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:53:58 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Pollard In-Reply-To: <3D220132.7118D980@sprynet.com> References: <20020702191536.72007.qmail@web40017.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 One day at a future date, we all will find out why in spite of all the attempts by various Political Leaders of Government of Israel at the highest levels, no one was able to get Pollard released from Prison. At 03:38 PM 7/2/02 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: > By the way, on an unrelated note, I finally read some information > that >puts the Jonathan Pollard case into perspective. Apparently, he and his >wife came out with a lot of public, anti-American statements in between >his guilty plea and sentencing, which alienated not only the >prosecution, but his own lawyer. So, when the prosecution illegally >voided the plea bargain, his lawyer purposely sabotaged his case by not >filing the appeal in the legally required time (and, in what is truly a >case of an unjust law, there is NO excuse that is legally acceptable for >filing an appeal late, even if it is the result of criminal collusion >between the prosecution and the defense). In other words, Jonathan >Pollard got a life sentence not because of anti-Semitism or secret >agendas, but because of a combination of technicalities in the law and >the fact that he was a first-class jerk. While this information comes >from his current lawyer, I find this MUCH more believable than any of >the other stories I have heard. From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Jul 03 08:02:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 15:02:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 12108 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 15:02:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 15:02:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hall.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.60) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 15:02:29 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PleF-0001nd-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:02:28 -0400 Message-ID: <3D231229.6F22FF47@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:03:05 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Sufis References: <000a01c221c8$07152fc0$c7de603e@captaink> <4.2.2.20020703094340.00b5fc50@mail.gbronline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > In the early days, theosophists took active interest on various issues > relating to the welfare of the oppressed people and espoused causes which > were not politically correct at that time. But things changed. Theosophists still do. The Theosophical Society never did. According to to Blavatsky, the only position that the Theosophical Society should take in politics is to increase the level of understanding between opposing sides (which I have been active in doing in the New York Lodge; for example, last year, I gave a lecture, "Reuniting a Divided Nation", where I pointed out that well-intentioned liberals and conservatives had much the same goals, the differences were in what they considered the best way of achieving these, and that the major conflicts were caused by outspoken members of both sides who had hidden, selfish agendas that they were pushing, hidden under supposed solutions to problems (such as Rush Limbaugh's "How do I make 'I got mine, everybody else can go to hell' sound like fairness" agenda, or Hillary Clinton's "How can I make a health system maximize the government's control of the individual?" agenda). Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Jul 03 08:10:28 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 15:10:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 86028 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 15:10:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 15:10:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blount.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.226) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 15:10:23 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by blount.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Pllt-0006rm-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:10:22 -0400 Message-ID: <3D231403.A26DF79@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:10:59 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Pollard References: <20020702191536.72007.qmail@web40017.mail.yahoo.com> <4.2.2.20020703095104.00a38420@mail.gbronline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 ramadoss@gbronline.com wrote: > > One day at a future date, we all will find out why in spite of all the > attempts by various Political Leaders of Government of Israel at the > highest levels, no one was able to get Pollard released from Prison. A good question, which deserves a good answer. Because he was offered a good deal by the government, and, after taking the deal, he figuratively spit in their face and publicly embarrassed them. By going public after making the deal, he also caused great embarrassment to Israel. In addition, Jews in high places in government are dead set against showing him any clemency, because his actions succeeded in putting the loyalty of every Jew in high-security positions in question. Which means that the only way he is going to be freed is not through mercy but through justice, through the fact that everybody, no matter how much we might like or dislike them, should be considered equal under the law. Bart Lidofsky From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Jul 03 08:23:44 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 15:23:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 2675 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 15:23:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 15:23:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40004.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.22) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 15:23:44 -0000 Message-ID: <20020703152343.3085.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.233.213] by web40004.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:23:43 PDT Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 08:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Pollard To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3D231403.A26DF79@sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > Which means that the only way he is > going to be freed is > not through mercy but through justice, through the > fact that everybody, > no matter how much we might like or dislike them, > should be considered > equal under the law. That statement confuses me. Why should Pollard, a confessed spy who was motivated entirely by money greed, be treated differently than Aldrich Ames or John Walker or any other spy who did the same thing for identical reasons? It appears from here that he has in fact received precisely equal treatment in the sense of getting an equal outcome. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Jul 03 08:47:58 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 15:47:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 25717 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 15:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 15:47:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maynard.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.243) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 15:47:58 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PmME-0001aN-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:47:54 -0400 Message-ID: <3D231CCF.930E1D16@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 11:48:31 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Pollard References: <20020703152343.3085.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > --- Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > Which means that the only way he is > > going to be freed is > > not through mercy but through justice, through the > > fact that everybody, > > no matter how much we might like or dislike them, > > should be considered > > equal under the law. > > That statement confuses me. Why should Pollard, a > confessed spy who was motivated entirely by money > greed, be treated differently than Aldrich Ames or > John Walker or any other spy who did the same thing > for identical reasons? It appears from here that he > has in fact received precisely equal treatment in the > sense of getting an equal outcome. Because he made a plea bargain, which was legally binding, which the prosecution and judge illegally voided, without giving Pollard a chance to change his plea. The only reason why the decision wasn't overturned immediately was because there was a 10 day deadline to appeal, and Pollard's own lawyer sabotaged the case by deliberately failing to file the appeal. Bart Lidofsky From dhyana@web.de Wed Jul 03 09:54:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 39321 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g63GscQ31156 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:54:51 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-249.blinx.de [62.96.222.249]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g63Gn0c30590 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:49:00 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c222b1$8d441400$f9de603e@captaink> To: Subject: Purucker says that Israel is not limited to the Jews Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:42:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Verily so; and if we are to take the witness of the New Testament of the Christians themselves, Jesus the Avatara came only unto the enlightening and saving of the Jews themselves; for as it is stated unequivocally in the Gospel According to Matthew, xv, 24: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel." If this statement was inspired by the Holy Ghost, the Third Person of the Christian Trinity, as the orthodox among Christians formerly used positively to state, then how shall we explain that it was precisely by the Jews that he was rejected, and became accepted in the West and in the West alone, and by the peoples unto whom it is stated that he did not come? Is it not evident, if we are to give any weight to this passage from Matthew, that an avataric influence descending into the murk and mire of earthly affairs brings a message for all mankind, and that, precisely as Theosophy has always stated, 'the lost sheep of Israel' do not signify the Jews alone, but the phrase is an expression taken directly from the Hither Asian Mysteries, based on Jewish thought in this instance, that 'Israel' does not mean the Jews alone but the Children of Saturn and the Earth, and that the divine influence comes to aid those of its 'children' who are 'lost' -- i.e., those who have need of a new spiritual and intellectual inspiration? Is the idea, therefore, not identic with that which is put into the mouth of Krishna, the Hindu Avatara in the Bhagavad-Gita, where he says that he comes from age to age in order to right wrongs, overthrow evil, inspirit the good, and rescue the down-trodden, spiritually speaking? The point of this footnote is for the reader or student to remember that the Gospels of the Christian religion imbodied a Mystery-Story and therefore can be construed properly only in the light of the archaic Mystery-teaching." - Gottfried de Purucker: The Esoteric Tradition, p. 1091, Fn. 462. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dhyana@web.de Wed Jul 03 09:54:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 8629 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g63Gsca31150 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:54:51 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-249.blinx.de [62.96.222.249]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g63Gn2c30606 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:49:02 +0200 Message-ID: <000b01c222b1$8e477a40$f9de603e@captaink> To: References: <20020702213507.20955.qmail@web40008.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:51:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >I do not know why they are still there. I do know >that Germany can evict NATO forces just as the French Seems you are a big optimist. Actually Germany was forced in the so-called 2-4 treaty with the Allied to continue its occupation and pay all the costs to its aggressors. >Perhaps they think the situation to the east is still >unstable, which is a reasonable perception. You'll >have to ask your politicians. It is to be expected that I would get an answer as much intelligent as if you would as your politicians why the last poll was a fake to bring the war fraction a la Huntington to the red button. >Henry Kissinger (who was originally a German) believed >it unwise for Germany to develop a nuclear arsenal of >its own because that would (he believed) lead to a new >Hitler. Maybe that opinion is shared by German policy >makers. Good that you quote this big mass murder. Now I know well what the clock has stroke and that you are a supporter of the anti-theosophical Huntington ideology. BTW, today there appeared a official warning from Mark Burman (who is a Jew and a coworker of the persecuted American Democratic politician Lyndon LaRouche) in Germany that the American oligarchic establishment to produce a new 9/11 within the next days, perhaps on Independence Day. Frank From dhyana@web.de Wed Jul 03 09:54:59 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 11744 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id g63Gsb131140 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:54:52 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from captaink (cppp-249.blinx.de [62.96.222.249]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id g63Gn3c30612 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:49:03 +0200 Message-ID: <000c01c222b1$8f433f60$f9de603e@captaink> To: References: <20020702191105.74120.qmail@web40013.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:50:52 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Env-From: ringding@blinx.de X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 X-eGroups-From: "Frank Reitemeyer" From: "Frank Reitemeyer" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=84373886 X-Yahoo-Profile: santana01de >My take on history was that the whole thing was rather >complex. First there was the anarchist revolt against >the Czar, then the disaffection of the Russian army Right. The Socialists were paid by the Rothschilds as HPB explains. They also paid Marx and Hitler. >The people who benefitted were the Wilhelm government >in Berlin, since they pacified their eastern front and >acquired significant land from the deal with Lenin One could say (I do it not) you are speaking like a Nazi as that was actually the rationale for the Nazis to persecute the Jews as Wilhelm has had many Jews in top positions and it is said that it was they who made the plot. Wilhelm later affirmed that form his Holland exile. But the fact that Lenin was helped by the Jews in Wilhelms administration and by Ludendorff whom Hitler accused publicly to be a member of a Masonic Lodge does not contradict HPB's statement that the Jews paid and ruled the socialistic movement in Russia and Germany. >nicer head of hair.) So if I followed the money I >would say the Kaiser had a hand in it. Is that what >you are getting at? Agreed. The Kaiser, or rather his Jewish councellors and secretaries and Ludendorff had a hand in it. But Rothschild in New York was the master player in that plot. >>Frank: "And who installed the Nazis in Germany? >German politicians. He did not have a majority in the >Rsichstag when he was installed chancellor. And no one in the USA has had anything to do with it? No one in New York who gave Hitler the money? >Are you talking about the Dawes plan? Hitler No. I am talking about the payment Hitler and his party get from New York bankers, I am not talking about what the land or the government get back. As Germany as the victim had to pay to the winners the land was bankrupt mid 1920's and the Dawes plan was an idea to give Germany a part of its stolen money back for fair rates. The Prussian officials have had documents about 150 million Reichmark the Nazi party got from NY bankers, it would today perhaps be $1 billiard or so. When Hitler was installed - and it was an installment - with the help of a foreign country the insiders who knew who paid Hitler and who installed him had to flee to Switzerland. Of course the Nazis searched them and some were assassinated. But the Abegg files were duplicated and survived, but are ignored by offical historians as with this information the whole cardhouse a official history would break. End of 1932 the situations was very bad. He was out of money, in the last polls he has lost many voters, in the last alone over 2 million voters and the Prussian goverment was persecuting him because of launching a plot. So it was high time to install him or the point of no return was soon over. Had the Prussian goverment imprisoned him as they were in attempt to do he would be away for many many years and not only for some months as in the gamey former Bavarian imprisonment. So on Jan. 4, 1933 the deciding meeting happened: Hitler met with von Papen, the pro Israel banker Schroeder (agent of the Warburg clan) and John Foster Dulles, who became later US foreign secretary and his brother Alles became chief of the CIA. Dulles was paying also the fascist movement in Italy and became chief lawyer of the IG Farben. On Jan. 30, Hitler was installed and all people who knew of this meeting and other details of his hidden masters were killed, among them Otto Strasser in the night of the long knives 6/30 1934. In 1945 on the Potsdam conference Prussia was officiall slaughtered as the war aims were reached with Hitler's help. In the Nuremburg trials - one of the biggest hoaxes and crimes on Humanity - only second and third line people and innocents were sentenced and all the insiders who knew more about the Jewish-Nazi cooperation were hanged. Gestapo chief Mueller and others were going to USA to work for Truman. So, actually the policy before, during and after the war has never changed. And no mention is made today of the men in the Prussian government who tried to stop the plot. In no resistance festival they are mentioned. By the way, it was as early as in 1921 when Hitler in his young party was alleged to be an agent of Jewish organziations. All those people died. >I don't want to sound like a party pooper, but if your >source cannot come up with an archive or manuscript >number I would tend to wonder if he is being truthful. Do think I ran around the world through all public archives to check whether the documents are there? If you cannto accept any information which has no archive number I wonder f.e. whether you accept the Holocaust as many if not most of the facts which are commonly be accpted by average historians and in school book are not documented. I don't know what was going on with the Abegg files. All people who knew about it were killed by Hitler and after 1945 by the Amercians and/or Jews. >There were anyway all sorts of conspiracy theories in >Germany in the twenties involving bankers. That does >not mean they were true. But it does also not mean they were untrue. HPB supports that idea. And for example the Rothshild cheque to Marx (who wrote an article on the Jews who would today be considered as Nazi) is in the possession of the British Museum in London. But I have no archive number. >> General Motors or Ford sold >>many military invironments to Hitler's Germany, at >>least up to 1942. >There was a theory at one time that if countries >became intertwined by economic ties the threat of war >would be greatly reduced. That theory did not play >out in practice. The weapons you sell to Germany the more peace you have in Germany? Strange US logic! No wonder, that we have had over 200 wars since 1945. But I hope at least the New York shareholders are satisfied. >True that some SS intelligence people were employed >after the war, but I am skeptical that Mueller built >the CIA or even survived the conflict. It is also >extremely unlikely that he would have been employed at >such a high level in such a secretive agency. He was >pushed out of the way when Himmler took over the >Gestapo from the Interior Ministry and incorporated it >into the SS, and that was long before the war started. Rofl. Check your sources. Every one knows that Mueller lived at least up to 1945. Himmler made Mueller Gestapo chief and he was it until 1945. Every oligarchy historians affirms you that fact. I never heard the idiotic ida that Himmler pushed Mueller away. Perhaps you intermix him with Schellenberg who worked for the enemy. And the SS as a party organization was incoporated into the Reichssicherheitshauptamt and not vice versa. Why should a government incorporate its biggest administration with 50,000 or more coworkers into a party organizations? And that during a war? There are Americans and Germans who met and talked with Mueller in the 1960's, for example in South Africa, and he looked very alive. Author Gregory Douglas who published up to know four books on the US Mueller files (the books are banned in Germany, which means that they are true) also met him and he published a nice mid 1960's photo from him. Seems you are lacking from basic information on the case and that makes it not easy to go beyond official lines. If one is satisfied with the official versions, why not watch CNN and be happy? >Then you must agree that the existence of such a >sector served your interest, which means you must >think it was in your interest that the westward >expansion of the Soviet empire was halted by the >postwar security arrangements. After 1952 Germany Really? And me thought that Eisenhower stopped the US army for over a month in Italy and nevertheless the US army was in Saxony before the Red Army. Later they exchanged the West part of Berlin with the GDR territory. Seems rather they supported the expansion of the Soviets... Frank From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jul 03 11:25:49 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 18:25:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 19475 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 18:25:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 18:25:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 18:25:48 -0000 Received: from pool0356.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.189.101] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Poox-0006ms-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:25:43 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Color and Music Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:23:37 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 July 2 2002 Re: SKANDHAS -- What are they ? Are they necessary ? Dear Larry and Friends: Seeking for a "purpose" is what our minds always desire to put in a perspective we can understand. SKANDHA The word "skandha" is a Sanskrit word and includes several ideas: As I have learned, it is a stage in the education of the eternal Monad. They have progressed through the "kingdoms" of nature until they become of special use to the" human MONAD" which is itself progressing towards Perfection. The Human Monad apparently attracts to itself certain monads of lesser experience which become (because of their own evolution) able to bear the impress of human feelings and thoughts. The impact of the thoughts and feelings of a Human Mind, imposes the action of the Law of Karma -- and thus these monads, being so impressed, become the "vehicles," or "carriers" of the kind of Karma related to that Individual who first generated it and imposed it on them. This is not unusual, as it is all part of the chain of experience which every Monad has to pass through. We much earlier went through a similar phase. We, as Monads that THINK ( MINDS, MANASES), are independent and free. The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge imposes responsibilities on us because of the KNOWLEDGE we have gained. If we do not grasp or understand these duties and responsibilities the choices we make as we live from moment to moment, and day to day, makes of our "personality" [ the aggregate of the Monads of lesser experience which provide us with our lower vehicles ( body, and its cause, the astral body, prana, Kama and Lower Manas ) ] either an intelligent chooser, or an ignoramus who chooses by whim and pleasure, having no thought of future consequences. If we look closely at the memories of our choices we will see that we seem to vibrate between these two extremes. What does Theosophy do ? it provides us with the information and the rationale of the whole system. The word "Skandha," in translation is said to be "attributes." All attributes are impressions made on the plastic substance of the Monads; and in so accepting this, they become a part of the Karmic trail of the particular Monad to which they are for the time being attached. But let us look into this rationale that Theosophy presents. It makes the whole of Nature and her hidden ways reasonable and coherent. MONAD Suppose we start with the basic idea that the Monads represent a portion of SPIRIT and of MATTER that are so closely intertwined and joined that they are inseparable. UNIVERSE Can you imagine an endless UNIVERSE ( H P B in the 1st Fundamental uses the words: "a boundless plain." ) At that point one might wonder how else we could express this ? We are so limited by finality and boundaries. MEMORY For example: Our birth we do not know as a memory. Yet our existence demonstrates logically its event. The study of physiology and embryology give us an outline of the physical process of foetal development. Not being trained in those areas we accept the diagrams and explanations as true. In other words we adopt the statements made by AUTHORITY. There are dozens of other memories and explanations that we have accepted and adopted because of the same reasons. We have not studied, we then take the short-cut of accepting the authoritative statements of others who we presume are qualified. Most of us do not know =, for instance< what it takes to make the motor of a car move. The mix of gasoline, air, electricity and water combined in the various passages and parts of a compression-ignition engine are quite a mystery, until we sit down and study the diagrams that explain these. We can then go out to the car, open the hood and examine the parts there that relate to what we have read about or seen in the diagrams. AUTHORITY and WISDOM I am trying to show that we accept without examination many things on "authority." This does not mean we cannot find the necessary texts and guides that will explain and illustrate many of those things. But lets get back to the Monads and see if they play a part in this. A UNIVERSE OF MONADS Theosophy states that the Monads are eternal and immutable, changeless points of life. Our Whole Universe is made up of these. The numbers are staggering if we think of "atoms". molecules," "cells," and the vast complexity of living relationships becomes incomprehensible if we think for a moment of that which physicists call "sub-atomic particles." The UNIVERSE is EMBODIED CONSCIOUSNESS Theosophy avers that these are "points of life." They are eternal and immortal. One of their qualities is that they represent also a UNIT OF CONSCIOUSNESS. No matter how small, or how unimportant (in size) or in potential they may seem, they are the remote "building blocks" of the Universe. [ Lets remember always that each Monad is a small replica of the vast UNIVERSAL MONAD. It has the same potencies and potentials of its "parent." ] UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION -- IMMORTALS SEEK WISDOM Theosophy teaches that the evolution of all units is one of the purposes of the existence of the Universe and the continual interaction of all of these points of LIFE. The KINGDOMS OF NATURE -- GRADUATED EXPERIENCE FOR ALL It traces an unbroken chain of evolution starting with the undifferentiated "monadic essence" to the individual monads. From there it traces their progress through the "elemental" kingdoms (as the currents and forces of Nature) to their "immetalization." The Monads working through all kinds of mineral conditions, builds into its memory and widening consciousness every aspect of these many kinds of elements and the compounds that they form in working or fighting together. This process then moves to the vegetable kingdom, [ some call them at this stage the "Vegetable Monad"] and after aeons spent in gaining all experience there, the immortal Monads now pass on to the animal kingdom [ where they are sometimes designated the "animal Monads"]. There again the whole process of experience, experiment, participation and the gaining of "instinct" proceeds. These "instincts" are variously described, some deal with self-preservation, others with the help and parenting of offspring, still others manifest as the cunning needed to prey upon other animals, or to limit one's diet to vegetables, or meats. Some show an innate sagacity in regard to herbs and their curative powers, other aspects of instinct relate to home building, protection against heat or cold, concealment, advertising, etc., etc., -- all aspects of the emotional, instinctive, desire or aversion nature. Enmities and friendships are clearly marked and certain qualities are almost human in their attention to others and care for them -- a kind of love, and friendship that has no limits or boundaries. Behavioral psychology deals with and analyses these. TIME SCALES -- Confusion of numbers and Aeons Manvantaras may be spent (in our concept of time) in these processes. But that is not important as we are dealing with the education of immortals and eternals. Every experience leaves a memory etched forever in the inner consciousness of each MONAD. We see little evidence of this, when we investigate and peer into the nature of the animals, vegetables, minerals -- and we seem to have few clues as to the nature of the "elementals." [ ISIS UNVEILED is full of interesting evidence concerning the elementals, their existence and powers all around us. ] HUMANITY -- MIND - MONADS We now come to ourselves: the human kingdom. Here is the same deathless Monad (with its long train of inherent memories) is faced with a new development in Nature's vast program. Its school changes to a consideration of the mental qualities, their nature, growth, potential. In ourselves all the various memories and qualities, instincts aversions and other qualities are brought to a focus under the light of a MIND. NO ISOLATION IN NATURE But that is not the only considerations. and here is where your question arises: Do we not continually use the "little lives" or Monads of lesser experience in framing our bodies? are not our experiences a part of their education and become part of their immortal memories ? Theosophy says that no part of Nature is ever totally isolated. It is reasonable to think therefore that one of the pressing duties of the Human Monad is the education and care for its "younger brothers" -- the Monads that are coming up through the ranks and experience by experience developing their own unique consciousness ? THE ELDERS, THE WISE ASSIST THE YOUNGER AND INEXPERIENCED This idea of the elder assisting the younger, is one that transcends all boundaries, such as we employ in analysis today. It deals with the idea of total participation. We are "our brothers keepers." We preserve their integrity and assist in their development. We, the elders, become the servants of the youngsters, and this is an eternal process. So the Great Adepts assist and help us towards a total comprehension of the life process. That help is embodied in the philosophy of Theosophy. LIGHTING UP OF MANAS The process of "Lighting up of the Mind" is one that occurred many million years ago for the human race. ( S D I 150 fn says over 18,000,000 years ) . We see this occur every time in a family as the young ones gradually acquire the mind faculties through their daily contact with parents, and other elders. Full independence is usually given a period of 21 years for maturation. Obviously one cannot learn everything in a single life through a single personality -- an organism that supports the mind on this Earth. Since the Monad now a MIND-MONAD will undergo many experiences in which instinct, imagination, thought, and intuition become adjusted, the concept of many incarnations in successive bodies is seen to be relevant, possible and actually does occur. I hope this gives some idea of the scope of Theosophy. all these points will be found in The SECRET DOCTRINE and in the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY -- this is only a condensed version. Best wishes, Dallas ===================================== -----Original Message----- From: Larry F Kolts Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 3:38 PM To: B N Subject: RE: Color and Music Thanks to Gopi, Dallas and Christina for the additional feedback on color and music. Yes Gopi, I see that what I posted consisted of opposites. Dualism pervades all our thoughts. Getting beyond that is a worthy goal but not always that easy. You write of the feeling of unconditional love. Then we see things for what the really are. All the illusion of Maya disappears. This must be what Paul alluded to when he wrote of now seeing through a glass darkly but then face to face. Dal, as usual that was a most illuminating couple of posts. You really put this all in the proper perspective!. So it is the lower self at work here, with caries over from previous lives through the skandhas. So that's WHAT happens. But WHY does it happen at all? Why do we feel the need to categorize everything like this? Christina writes of vibrations within us. Is this part of it? Do we set ourselves up to resonate a certain way so that certain types of music feel harmonious with our very beings? How do we then progress to the state Gopi writes of? Again, this has been a very productive topic, and as usual, I'm trying to squeeze the most out of it I can. this seems like a microcosm for something much larger! Larry From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Wed Jul 03 13:02:07 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 20:01:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 85266 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 20:01:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 20:01:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web40011.mail.yahoo.com) (66.218.78.29) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 20:01:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.232.196] by web40011.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:01:34 PDT Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <000b01c222b1$8e477a40$f9de603e@captaink> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs --- Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > BTW, today there appeared a official warning from > Mark Burman (who is a Jew > and a coworker of the persecuted American Democratic > politician Lyndon > LaRouche) in Germany It may not be apparent from Germany, but Lyndon Larouche is a well known nut case. I missed something somewhere. Who is Huntington? My memory of the events may be inaccurate, but I thought when Himmlet pushed Goering out of the way and took over the Gestapo Mueller was dismissed. I read a memoir by one of Mueller's people named Gisevius wgo went out of his way to say that he was an agent in Mueller's Gestapo and not Himmler's Gestapo. Sort of like saying you joined the Hell's Angels, but that Sonny Barger was already in jail at the time. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Jul 03 13:44:16 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 20:44:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 43555 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 20:44:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m15.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 20:44:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 20:44:15 -0000 Received: from t0o8b8 [209.12.90.94] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id A1C19E1B004A; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:42:41 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020703153443.031b9e40@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 15:38:12 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Pollard In-Reply-To: <3D231CCF.930E1D16@sprynet.com> References: <20020703152343.3085.qmail@web40004.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 At 11:48 AM 7/3/02 -0400, Bart Lidofsky wrote: >The only reason why the decision wasn't overturned >immediately was because there was a 10 day deadline to appeal, and >Pollard's own lawyer sabotaged the case by deliberately failing to file >the appeal. In Texas, I have seen cases where the law license has been suspended when lawyers in criminal cases missed a critical deadline. I wonder if any disciplinary action was taken on the lawyer. Unless the Bar is leinient in the East Coast, I am sure that by now the lawyer's law license would have been suspended. It would be interesting to know of any developments in this angle. mkr From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Jul 03 14:38:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 21:38:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 70126 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 21:38:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 21:38:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO maynard.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.243) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 21:38:42 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-238-022.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.238.22] helo=sprynet.com) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17Prpg-0002ex-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:38:41 -0400 Message-ID: <3D236F01.3B1F825C@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:39:13 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Germany: to protect or not to protect? References: <20020703200134.36365.qmail@web40011.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Steve Stubbs wrote: > --- Frank Reitemeyer wrote: > > BTW, today there appeared a official warning from > > Mark Burman (who is a Jew > > and a coworker of the persecuted American Democratic > > politician Lyndon > > LaRouche) in Germany > > It may not be apparent from Germany, but Lyndon > Larouche is a well known nut case. And felon; he spent time in jail for credit card fraud. Bart Lidofsky From comments@blavatskyarchives.com Wed Jul 03 16:55:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: comments@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 3 Jul 2002 23:55:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 16741 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2002 23:55:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2002 23:55:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.67) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jul 2002 23:55:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.151] by n12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2002 23:55:53 -0000 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 23:55:50 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Reitemeyer on Mueller and Douglas Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000c01c222b1$8f433f60$f9de603e@captaink> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 954 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.11.247 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116679185 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Frank Reitemeyer wrote: "Every one knows that Mueller lived at least up to 1945. Himmler made Mueller Gestapo chief and he was it until 1945. Every oligarchy historians affirms you that fact. . . . There are Americans and Germans who met and talked with Mueller in the 1960's, for example in South Africa, and he looked very alive. Author Gregory Douglas who published up to know four books on the US Mueller files (the books are banned in Germany, which means that they are true) also met him and he published a nice mid 1960's photo from him. Seems you are lacking from basic information on the case and that makes it not easy to go beyond official lines. If one is satisfied with the official versions, why not watch CNN and be happy?" One might want to COMPARE what Frank writes above with, for example, the following review of one of Douglas' books on Mueller: See http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n2p40_Douglas.html Daniel Caldwell From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jul 03 17:13:46 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 00:13:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 13732 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 00:13:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 00:13:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.122) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 00:13:44 -0000 Received: from pool0598.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.20.88] helo=earthlink) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17PuFh-0003a1-00; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:13:41 -0400 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Color and Music Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:11:49 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 July 3 2002 The force of Thought underlies all Music, sound and words. The motive when we generate them determines their value. Dear Friends: The impact of choice is a universal and automatic impression made of the surroundings. Those surroundings consist of "monads" in evolution. We call them by their appearance: minerals, vegetables, animals, humans, etc... The components of these gross forms are living monads -- points of life. These are the "eternal pilgrims." The concept of the immortal monad as a "pilgrim" is yet to be recognized. Science however posits the eternal (perpetual) motion of those atoms and their components. Theosophy goes a step deeper and says that those are indestructible and that their progress is ever forward towards a higher kind of consciousness, a greater awareness of their environment and a learning of their own powers (as integral parts of the whole Universe). Our choice is always a deliberate one, hence we make an impress, however light, on our surroundings. This aspect of interactive life is yet to be generally recognized. If we listen solely for our pleasure the impression is of that purpose. Is it selfish? We alone can answer that, because we alone determine our MOTIVES. All sounds and vibrations carry a force. Science demonstrates this. Words are framed by MINDS. They carry this additional force. ( Try listening to a good speaker or a bad one. Listen to a good singer or a bad one.) The impact on us depends also on our understanding of the nature of sound, music, poetry, rhythms, and MEANINGS. In time they attenuate and may fade away. But the original impact always remains dormant in every part of that energy that expands through the Universe. We may not be aware of those vibrations, but that does not mean they do not exist and produce some effect on us and on others. We participate when we listen. We can refuse to listen, and shut out the sounds. We generate potential effects when we act, be it in receiving or in generating, song, or in writing, or anyway. We are responsible for those potential effects. Those who receive and then consider them with their MINDS, assume a certain responsibility in doing so. We allow, or debar, the effect of music, words, etc... depending on our understanding of them and the effects they convey to us. This can be proved any time by carefully examining the effect on us of such stimuli. The use of swear words in conversation conveys a carelessness and an indifference to the refinements of thought. They are expressions of emotion, however careless or casual. They simply indicate we are faced with an individual who is adolescent, or even childish, and one who has not realized the importance of thinking. He or she is unable to express themselves intelligently. The have yet to learn to think and use words that have meaning. Wee are then looking at an emotional wreck fit only for the language of the lowest aspects of humanity -- the crude, the rude, the careless, the boorish, the tyrant, and the fool. Who desires extensive contact with those ? I would say it is indicative of the general counter-tendency in the world: to dumb people down. To prevent them thinking and asking intelligent questions. To encourage reliance on amusement and pleasure as the only basis for living. If the majority of humanity can be kept at a kamic (desire and passion) level of life then they can be all the more easily manipulated. To what end does a life of emotionalism lead? What is there that is inspiring there? Do we treasure the biographies of idiots or of Sages? What makes the difference ? Is a Caesar Borgia respected, or a Solomon? Do we pay honor to Machiavelli, or to Jesus who tried to reform a whole tribe ? Most of us, for instance read or listen to the "news." It is a selection of high spots, usually the evils and the horrors of life are recounted or made visual. Why this fascination with the extremes? Why this desire for unintelligent emotionalism? Each ought to answer this for themselves. Theosophy presents us with the concept of a totally interactive and vibrating universe in which life's experiences always add to a greater capacity to understand the root causes of all events. Most care nothing for those. For them the unimagined and indistinct future is an area of continuous surprise, and wonder. If their fancies are magnified, then they believe they are being entertained. But who recalls the movies or news of say, a month ago in any detail ? Who draws the lessons from history and its unrolling? who looks on their daily participation as important? Who envisages for themselves a truly viable and useful future ? As you suggest most of us use words without considering their potential effect. Can this be changed now that our attention is drawn to this fact ? Finally, in my esteem, the whole panorama of our life is determined by our purpose. I is to be one of greatness and of assistance? Or is it to be one of selfish isolation ? Each none determines this for themselves. Which is the more valuable ? Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: chris Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 6:41 AM To: blavatsky.net Subject: RE: Vibrations, Color and Music Is it then, a matter of what you make of it? Is choosing to listen to music something that may be inderectly selfish? This is way over my head... Now I can ask this as well: on the subject of sounds and language, words...do they only carry the amount of force and energy that the originator put into them, or do they resonate/disintegrate on their own depending upon the recipient and the environment? I ask because there are so many instances where people use the infamous 'four-lettered words' in casual conversations; and, I would venture to say that they [the words] do not carry literal and intentional meaning in most cases. They are used as 'coulourful metaphors'[?] adjectives, adverbs. Colloquial as they are, vulgarism is not foremost in the user's mind when the word or words are said. Is that just ignorance of the power of words, or do we infuse the words with the power through intended mind action? From ramadoss@gbronline.com Wed Jul 03 18:29:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_7_4); 4 Jul 2002 01:29:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 18393 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2002 01:29:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jul 2002 01:29:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jul 2002 01:29:17 -0000 Received: from mkr [209.12.90.59] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id A49167B70100; Wed, 03 Jul 2002 20:27:45 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.2002070320272