From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Jun 01 12:08:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 1 Jun 2002 19:08:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 74967 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 19:08:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2002 19:08:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2002 19:08:30 -0000 Received: from pool0339.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.223.84] helo=earthlink) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17EEEl-0004hT-00; Sat, 01 Jun 2002 12:08:28 -0700 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE: Adam and Eve Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:07:07 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Saturday, June 01, 2002 Dear Christina: Thanks for your posting. As I learn from Theosophy -- most of our conceptions are derived from the thinking of the embodied mind which is primarily concerned with the FORM of things, and with the matter of which the form is made. Rarely does any one say" "Why is the form made in such a way ? What forces shape it? What is its real purpose? If that were done the reason for things as they APPEAR would stand out. The Bible is no exception. You speak of the Abrahamic version. H P B says that the word Abraham is derived from the older Sanskrit [ S D II 139fn, 77 ] : 'a' -- means NOT, and Braham -- refers to the BRAHMIN caste. so Abraham was not a Brahmin and declared it. The Semitic tribes emigrated from India in waves starting about 8,000 ago [ SECRET DOCTRINE ii 470-1 ]. In the S D we find H P B saying that the Hebrew language is derived from the ancient Sanskrit root-language [ S D II 200, 755 ] H.P.Blavatsky gives us the difficulty of tracing (using biblical chronology) them historically and their link with Babylon and Chaldean history and religion (see SECRET DOCTRINE II 691-2. It is worth reading..) They belong to the period of the mixed 4th and 5th Race Aryans -- or "Noble") and are one of the sub-race "family races" . [S D II 147fn, - 266; I - 319, ] There is now a chasm between their and the Aryan-Hindu religions S D I 383; they had a common religion before the separation: S D I xxix; The whole history of the Hebrews, Jews, Arabs, Irians (Aryans, Medes, Magi, Persians), Chaldeans, Babylonians makes very interesting reading if one takes the INDEX to The SECRET DOCTRINE and to ISIS UNVEILED and carefully reads every reference that is offered there for us to discover how the Great Lodge of Adepts (which acted as a "Witnesses on the Scene" ) described their history derivation and religious philosophy. The Jewish Kabala is well-known to be derived from the far more ancient ORIENTAL KABALAH of Central Asia, Tibet and India where the ancient Esoteric Schools had (and have) their Lodges [ see I U II 98-103 ]. The Christian Bible has been badly handled by translators and interested theologians -- and so has lost its reliability on the surface. But those who know how to penetrate below that surface can trace there the real history and the facts. H P B does this for us in ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE. Happy hunting, and best wishes Dallas -----Original Message----- From: christina Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 9:17 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] RE: Adam and Eve May i add to Louis' comment? In some instances, people have never covered this ground before and cannot add to the discussion but questions for those who have already covered the subject. Also, i agree that the list members communication is predisposed to bursts of varying intensity. Much like at a gathering of family and friends, where everyone is chatting, and then it gets quiet all of a sudden; everyone seems to be in the same pause... Remember that the glass is either half-full or half-empty, depending on which way you decide to think about it. I think you are great! Don't despair, just because people aren't quick to jump in to the conversation; as someone who never ever picked up a bible with intentions of reading it before BN-Study, i appreciate any and all insights to these discussions. I need to start somewhere...and you have provided a place to start. Do people want to mix it up? Here everybody--read this: It is various versions of the Adam and Eve story, the fall of man, from all world scriptures. How about we discuss why the texts outwardly blame woman for evil and suffering? I for one would love to discuss these in conjuction with our Christian bible text; what about these things? WORLD SCRIPTURE A Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts cut From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Jun 01 12:08:50 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 1 Jun 2002 19:08:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 18593 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 19:08:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2002 19:08:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2002 19:08:49 -0000 Received: from pool0339.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.223.84] helo=earthlink) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17EEF2-0004hT-00; Sat, 01 Jun 2002 12:08:44 -0700 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: Adam and Eve Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:07:14 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Saturday, June 01, 2002 Dear MLR: It most certainly will as I suggest in a post just made today. However it is a matter of time. As I do not have the time to review the details of the controversy --I have pointed to the INDEXES to ISIS UNVEILED and The SECRET DOCTRINE where one will find (after diligent research) al one needs to answer that question of veracity and authenticity in terms of the HISTORY of the Great Lodge [ ISIS UNVEILED II 98-103 ]. It is of course a great pity that so many have to deal with such a partial account of religion and philosophy. Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: mlr [mailto:ult_blr@vsnl.net] Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 8:35 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] Re: Adam and Eve Dallas, Will not Larry's proposal to take up Genesis for bn discussion in the light of the S.D. bring out prominently before the world the unreliability of the Old Testament as it is now in its English translation, disabuse viewers' minds of the absurdities of the theological dogmas, and introduce them to the true Universal Tradition of which Genesis is a distorted fragment, passed on by the Church as "Divine Revelation" ? I think it is worthwhile project provided those who have studied the S.D. contribute to the effort. It will be bn contribution to reformation of the Christian Church and a help to many good Christians in the world. All the teaching about Rounds and Races, cyclic evolution, would go over their heads if these are not taught with refernce to their own religious scriptures with which they are familiar--which is what HPB does in her writings. So Larry's project is I think is important. Ramprakash. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 10:22 AM Subject: [bn-study] Re: Adam and Eve > May 23 2002 > > Re the BIBLE as HISTORY -- Has it any veracity in it ? > > Re: the Mythology and Symbolism of Adam and Eve > > > Dear Friends: > > Regarding the Bible and Adam and Eve. > > As I have learned from theosophy and a study of pre-history all around > the world, and not confined to the West alone, May I offer the > following: > > First, the OLD TESTAMENT has been borrowed by the Christians (first > the Byzantine and old Eastern Orthodox Church of the Slavic states > including Russia, which did not go along with the Church of Rome) from > the Jewish sacred scriptures. It does not today treat the Jewish > traditions as useful, respectable or valid. It has adopted its own > bias and teaches it far and wide. > > You will recall that the early efforts to suppress the Gnostics were > conducted by the early Bishops in the Middle East. The Gnostics of > all groups carried the closest to original traditions of Jesus' > ministry. The Church Of Rome developed the agenda of mind-control. > > Eventually the Protestant reformation against its excesses cause the > great divisions we now have starting with Germany (Luther), > Switzerland (Calvin), Scotland , England, (Henry the 8th), The James > Ist translation of the Latin and the Greek Bible into English provided > those who were of the protestant persuasion with a basis for > independent reading, thinking and adopting of unilateral and sectarian > opinions and small churches of various kinds sprang up all over the > place. > > This is what we are faced with now. > > Primarily, no reliance can be placed on the ENGLISH LANGUAGE BIBLE. > > There are too many discrepancies. Read in FOHAT the 2nd Article THE > ORIGINS OF CHRISTIANITY In the Spring 2002 issue, Vol. 6, Number 1. > just received. Read what H P B wrote 125 years ago in ISIS UNVEILED. > > No, the Christian religion has only an antiquity of some 2,000 years > and was borrowed from the Jews without their agreement. It is the new > boy on the block, when one compares it with Hinduism or the ancient > Taoism of China, or the Esoteric Schools of Tibet, Mongolia and > Central Asia, or with Zoroastrianism -- I mean the original antique > religion and sciences of the Medes, the Mages of Babylon, and the > Farsis. Those Schools have an antiquity of a million years says the > SD. > > Even Buddhism, so called, for it is not a religion, but a philosophy > and a discipline that leads to spiritual realization and final > emancipation from the clinging desires of an embodied life, it is > about 2,500 years old and is contemporaneous with the efforts of > Pythagoras, Manco Capac, the last of the Zoroasters, and with Lao-Tzu > and Confucius. > > So we need not worry too much about the mangled symbology of the > Bible, and certainly not of the truncated version of evolution found > concealed by the Kabalists of Judaea and reproduced inaccurately in > what we now seem to treasure as an exposition of the past. > > Serious study of history and pre-history ought to be called for. > Theosophy deals with these matters that are far more valuable than > those found in the English BIBLE. > > So I suggest we acquire some accurate view of the real history of our > Planet and its development ( The SECRET DOCTRINE will give us that), > and forget about trying to resurrect the shattered remains of the past > viewed through cracked and distorted lenses. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > > > > > > > > Dallas > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lady Firla [mailto:lilaroma@hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:43 AM > To: study@blavatsky.net > Subject: [bn-study] Re: Adam and Eve > > Hi Larry - > > I think that this is a fantastic bible/study project, and I sincerely > hope > that you continue with it!! :) > > Until this topic came up, I hadn't read the book of Genesis for many > years, > and as some of the comments have pointed out, there are many > inconsistencies > contained there... > > I am sure that I am not alone in the fact that when I originally read > these > biblical passages, it was in an organized religious setting where I > was > supposed to be "learning about what I was being taught" rather than > "thinking about what I was reading"... The bible was portrayed as the > literal truth - period. We were not taught to take notice of any > inconsistencies, and any that were accidentally stumbled upon were > immediately downplayed and diverted into childhood oblivion... > > The Genesis that I'm re-reading today is quite different than I > remembered > it to be - filled with far more questions than answers... And most of > the > SD references that have been mentioned so far are completely new to me > also... So, it's taking a bit of time to contemplate and digest > everything > - to re-evaluate the old and incorporate the new, so to speak... > > I guess I'm just trying to say that just because there hasn't been an > abundance of comments flying in yet, doesn't mean that there won't > be - me > thinks that there are a lot of wheels spinning behind the scenes!! :) > All > of your efforts are greatly appreciated, Larry - thank you! :) > > Have a great day! > > Debbie :) > > > >From: Larry F Kolts > >Reply-To: study@blavatsky.net > >To: study@blavatsky.net > >Subject: [bn-study] Adam and Eve > >Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:12:16 -0400 > > > >I have been admonished to "go slow" with this Bible/SD project. It > is > >one thing to go slow and quite another to be at a dead stop, which is > >where I feel we are at this point. > > > >What should we be doing? Why are none of our regulars commenting on > this? > >Adalasie? > >Gopi? Christina? Dallas? John the Goldsmith? Thomas of Kansas? What > say > >ye? > > > >Is everyone following Ramprakash's lead and simply trying to digest > >material but not commenting? > > > >Are all waiting for me to make the next move? > > > >Does everyone thing this entire thing is a waste of time and effort? > > > >Please let me know so I know where to go from here. > > > >When Peter was introducing "Fohat" and other very difficult material > from > >Cosmogenesis, there was a flurry of comment. Now that we are > attempting > >Anthropogenesis, which I thought was not anywhere as difficult, there > is > >near silence. > > > >Am I supposed to be posting my correlations as I have started and > >everyone else is going to simply sit back and read the material as if > >this were a lecture of sorts? that would be all right if that's what > you > >want. But at this point I just don't know what to do. > > > >I posted a list of environmental topics a few weeks back and no one > has > >even acknowledged that (except Dallas) yea or nay. So what gives? > > > >Do we have interest here or not? > > > >Hope to here from some of you soon. > > > >I jusr keep thinking of the comments Louis gave Bruce, that this was > >worthwhile material but would be lost on the members of this list. I > hope > >he was wrong, but I'm beginning to wonder. > > > >Jesus taught that the true leader was but the servant of those he > led. > >That's my vision of my role. No authority here, only to do the > bidding of > >the group. So advise me. > > > >Larry > > > >________________________________________________________________ > >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > > >--- > >Current topic is at > >http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnstudy/bibleSyllabus1999.htm > >You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [lilaroma@hotmail.com] > >To unsubscribe, forward this message to > >%%email.unsub%% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > > --- > Current topic is at > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnstudy/bibleSyllabus1999.htm > You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] > To unsubscribe, forward this message to > %%email.unsub%% > > > --- > Current topic is at > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnstudy/bibleSyllabus1999.htm > You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [ult_blr@vsnl.net] > To unsubscribe, forward this message to %%email.unsub%% --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnstudy/bibleSyllabus1999.htm You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-study-6660817A@lists.lyris.net From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Jun 01 12:09:13 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 1 Jun 2002 19:09:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 32040 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 19:09:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2002 19:09:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2002 19:09:13 -0000 Received: from pool0339.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.223.84] helo=earthlink) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17EEFR-0004hT-00; Sat, 01 Jun 2002 12:09:10 -0700 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: meditation Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 12:07:49 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Saturday, June 01, 2002 Dear Adam, and Friends: Why not (for then, for the purpose of rationalizing -- since the mind is all we have got to distinguish ourselves from other forms of intelligence -- and it is superior to the emotions and likes and dislikes) assume that there are three things that are quite inescapable as they are universal: 1. The Universe itself in its vast complexity as a cooperative. Since "God" is given the attribute of omnipresence, then the Universe is God, and God is UNIVERSAL. Hence in all logic IT is present in us and we may give IT any name we please, but that does not prevent its presence in us as in everything also -- regardless of what names or distinctions we apply to them and to ourselves ] 2. For the Universe to run harmoniously, Laws individual and collective are essential -- and Science for instance recognizes this. In Theology one of the attributes of God is omnipotence -- the everywhere sensitivity which would be needed to run atoms and galaxies is almost beyond our mind's capacity to think -- yet, by analogy we can see it is possible. 3. Everything evolves -- grows more experienced. As an analogy the atom to us seems terribly small and indefinite -- almost unimportant -- but, we can't do without them. We can't handle them physically but the compounds for living matter we can use all are derived from them and their many combinations -- again, according to the laws of chemistry and physics. Our world is truly a fascinating place if we try to see how it works. Now, Theosophy suggests, shall we try and think of the "atom" as a point of life? As an individual "thing" it is not physical, as a "real atom," it is an Energy -- an "ideal, and idea." In reality, it is a kind of force-field of energy -- and this energy underlies all the components of the atoms we know -- (Science holds that atoms are both indestructible (or their components are) and they are immortals. Individually, or even "en masse" -- no beginning or end to them can be discerned accurately, although the heavier "elements" are supposed to be formed when stars explode. ( hypothesis only, not a proved fact ). Let me say that Theosophy goes a step further, and endows every atom with a bi-polar nature ( call it SPIRIT and MATTER) or IDEAL and FORM. (Technically this is called a MONAD.) These are enclosed (as the old Hindu philosophy says about Brahma) in a golden effulgent shell of living force peculiarly itself (To the old philosophical Hindus, Brahma represents the Universal ATOM. The connecting bond between spirit and matter is the tenuous thing called intelligence or "innate consciousness," (the power to see along with other thinkers -- to share ideas, and to compare them with the memories of our experiences) and this is always singular and INDIVIDUAL. There is a bond between the poles which records all the experiences and interactions of atoms (as units), as well as the effects of others in and on any single atom. It is this individual INTELLIGENCE that "grows." "expands," and ultimately serves as the guiding center for the organization of the physical crystal, plant, animal and ultimately the FORM of a human being. This is the material side of evolution. The IDEAL always underlies and forms a matrix for the physical substance -- which serves as a vehicle, itself being composed of innumerable "atoms" which, themselves are beginning their individual evolution as they emerge from the "Monadic Essence." [ S D I 619, 632 ]. Synchronous with the "material" growth and experience, is the evolution in every individual, of its development of sensitivity, as we might say, the record of "emotion" and of "thought." The memories of these may be blurred in time, but they are ineffaceable (as hypnotism shows). They form the 2nd aspect of evolution -- the psychic and the intellectual. These are blended in us in what we call our Mind. So it is the growth of intelligence and the accretions to the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS of every experience that mark the advance of the individual. One might say that if the CONSCIOUSNESS, as a universal background and agent, represents SPIRIT, the Intelligence represents the growth of individual mind. The plans and Laws of the Universe are held, so to say, to be fair and equal for all in the UNIVERSAL MIND, and the substance needed for the mind to live and express itself through, on a plane of matter as gross as this, is the indestructible basis of the immortal atoms (monads) that are beginning their evolution, and will succeed us as we advance further into realms of consciousness yet to be plumbed. There is evidence of this to be seen in the existence of the "Elder Brothers of Humanity." One must remember that there are our "Elder Brothers" -- Those of GREAT SOUL, who have preceded us on the "Path," and who show the "Way." Theosophy is a map, so to say for that "Path," and the Mahatmas ( the Great SOULS) represent to us the goal we can achieve if we set our minds to dong that. [ see S D I 207-210,] This life represents a great beginning, and it all starts with a recognition of, and with a guiding of our life in the ways of brotherhood. A Brotherhood of IMMORTALS. We have been, and will be, a long time together. Thus generation following generation the whole of the Universe rebecomes ONE. I hope this may be of help - this is what I understand Theosophy teaches. Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Adam Brough Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 2:54 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] Re: meditation I have the same problem. I think alot more than don't-think. But I must say that I feel that I have still been able to percieve(even if very subtly) what the divine is. I have reached a point where I can understand what it is but not be able to explain it. At the moment I have realised that I can still my mind for longer thanm I used to. The closest I come to meditation is prayer. I feel that having a set prayer for each day & letting each part of the prayer as I go on helps. Adam CUT From r.c.rivera@att.net Sat Jun 01 16:36:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: r.c.rivera@att.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 1 Jun 2002 23:36:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 9089 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2002 23:36:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2002 23:36:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net) (204.127.131.46) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Jun 2002 23:36:24 -0000 Received: from webmail.worldnet.att.net ([204.127.135.30]) by mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020601233624.TRNC19182.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> for ; Sat, 1 Jun 2002 23:36:24 +0000 Received: from [12.91.161.98] by webmail.worldnet.att.net; Sat, 01 Jun 2002 23:36:20 +0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Adam and Eve Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 23:36:20 +0000 X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (May 26 2002) Message-Id: <20020601233624.TRNC19182.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> From: r.c.rivera@att.net X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94282576 X-Yahoo-Profile: creategreatthings1 Dallas wrote: The spirit-soul in every human is held to be an immortal which ever reincarnates as it grows wiser, using many bodies, but always the same as to INDIVIDUALITY. I always wondered about this idea. It made me wonder how the immortal part, as a spark(?) of the Infinite, came to "start over again", as in needing the opportunities to "grow in wisdom". Like if we are immortal sparks of the Infinite, how did we arrive at NOT being able to partake of the wisdom that is within us by birthright? The Infinite was expressing itself in matter and the denser the matter became, the further consciousness separated from the Source of wisdom. I know the fundamental Theosophical dogma answer for it but I was looking for a more intuitive one. Is it all within and we are too encrusted to realize? Is it part of the plan (is there a plan?) of evolution to relearn wisdom through many lifetimes or can we just snap out of it at some point? Does the Infinite express itself in the unrolling of evolution and the slower we progress the more varied are the patterns are to be seen and appreciated? I think of a kaleidoscope and how when you turn it really slow it offers more beautiful and varied joys of viewing. Any thoughts? Just wondering. :) Ruth > In each human three lines of evolution will be found combined and > interlaced: 1. The SPIRITUAL, 2. the Intellectual/psychic, and 3. > the physical. > > The spirit-soul in every human is held to be an immortal which ever > reincarnates as it grow wiser, using many bodies, but always the same > as to INDIVIDUALITY. > > The whole of Nature is rules by equity -- laws that are fair and equal > for all. > > This is a brief answer. > > Best wishes, > > > > > > Dallas > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lady Firla [mailto:lilaroma@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 10:45 AM > To: study@blavatsky.net > Subject: [bn-study] RE: Adam and Eve > > Hello everyone! > > I was wandering through a used bookstore yesterday, and found a book > titled, > "Ancient Landmarks", written by Blavatsky and printed by the United > Lodge of > Theosophists. Of course, I just couldn't resist bringing it home with > me! > Giggle, grin! :) I also couldn't resist sending an email to a friend > to > ask him what he knew of Blavatsky's works - he is quite well read in > many > areas, but has concentrated primarily on The Golden Dawn studies. I > found > his perspective to be thought-provoking, and I would like to share > what he > wrote with you: > > "I must confess a certain amount of ignorance when it comes to > Blavatsky. I > know she wrote a huge book called "The Secret Doctrine". I have never > read > it. I believe she also helped form the Theosophy movement with a guy > called > Rudolph Steiner and I have read some Steiner, many years ago. It had > to do > with there being seven basic stages and evolution passes us through > each of > these stages. Like first there was grass, then next is insects, then > animals - dogs, cats - then humans and then like "Supermen". That's a > real > brief summary and it's probably kinda off. But you get the idea." > > I have 2 questions that I would like to ask for your opinions on: > > #1 - What do you think of this description of Theosophy? > #2 - In what stage of evolution does Theosophy place things like the > biblical story of Adam and Eve? Has any progress been made in the > evolutionary stage of humanity since the creation of "the first man"? > > Thank you!! :) > > Love & Light to All, > > Debbie :) > > > CUT > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > > --- > Current topic is at > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnstudy/bibleSyllabus1999.htm > You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] > To unsubscribe, forward this message to > leave-bn-study-6660817A@lists.lyris.net > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jun 02 05:16:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 2 Jun 2002 12:16:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 4850 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 12:16:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m13.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2002 12:16:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2002 12:16:05 -0000 Received: from pool0099.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.188.99] helo=earthlink) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17EUHB-0006aA-00; Sun, 02 Jun 2002 05:16:02 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: "pre-view" and . . . Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 05:14:32 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Saturday, June 01, 2002 Dear Mauri and Friends: In my esteem it is more important to ask : "What can I do to assist others? " Finding out only for myself or to satisfy my curiosity or a desire to learn is fine -- but then what ? You worry about the ultimate use of things? Well, since we are all immortals, why worry? We'll be around and still working. We will in the lives to come be able to assist or to manage everything. What else does a potential "god" do -- it serves. In a cooperative universe the individual acquires WISDOM so as to serve others better. By volunteer assistance and care, by love, devotion and mercy it tries to show others the wonderful parameters of excellence in sharing. Let's look at dancers -- do the fight or cooperate? How do they et to be so good? Do they not seek to blend their differences into a unit that can work harmoniously with the rhythm, music, and purpose of a dance ? We need as someone else suggests attention. Attention is focusing the mind. Attention is being able together all relative information, and make of the hodge-podge a reasonable and consecutive whole. How do we acquire the ability to do this? Look at Patanjali's YOGA APHORISMS, and see how he has discussed the nature and training of the "embodied mind" -- of a mind, of ourselves, as embodied in substance and the matter of our wonderfully diverse and cooperative bodies. Attention is one of the preliminary stages to meditation. It means nothing that we speak of "esoteric" or "exoteric." Those are expressions meant to trap others. they do not trap us, unless we like the sound of our own words. They are not profound, but superficial. The true esoteric is that which deals with the "Soul" of things, with their essential being and with the reason and principles of their action and existence. It implies a deep and vast knowledge -- wisdom in fact, as to what to say, and what not, as what to say to whom, and what not. Any one who is sincere, diligent and assiduous in study can acquire this power. And having it he hides it. It is there, but is only used for good, and not to advertise however subtly the position that the believes is his. It is like the old game: "I have a secret." and all the curious try to pry the fact from the carefully dropped clues. Let us also look at the wonderful teaching opportunity we have in and upon our selves. We the Mature thinker, able to perceive and to contrast, able to cooperate and to analyse -- we are at a point where we choose the path that will be ours. Now, why is this so? First let us prove we have that power. That we are able to select, to control and to work with anything that we elect to do, or any situation, or any person. In so doing, we learn how to adapt ourselves to them. We employ what has been called our "plastic potency." It is the inner magic of interaction which immortals deal with in their relations with other immortals. Nature is pervaded with it. But, there are whose who, limiting themselves to forms perceived, believe that those exist by chance and for no particular design. So, to my mind it is the purpose of our working that is valuable. WHY DO WE DO ANYTHING? Why are we here anyway? Ah! That is the beginning of discovery. Or, that is how I express i to myself. Best wishes, Dallas Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Mauri Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 6:11 AM To: Subject: re: "pre-view" and . . . Dallas wrote: <> The word "preview" in that context seems interesting to me in that it occurred to me that there "might be" (well, just sort of "exoterically speculating," here, "of course," in a sense, unfortunately---tsk---rather than sort of "esoterically speculating" :-) so it occurred to me that there "might be" (ie, in my highly speculative/interpretive/exoteric terms . . . ) a kind of "pre" "viewing" or "pre" something going on in our "general field of awareness" (on some "conscious/unconcscious" level) that "might be" like an introductory or pre step or advantage or potential or levarage that, as per our "present/general awareness," might be, ("apparently"?), the "only pre-insight/view" that we humans "might" generally have access to by way of what "might be seen" (?) as an "introduction" of sorts re "Reality" or "As Isness" . . . But, if "Reality" is "Really" more like "As Isness" . . . then what . . . in that isn't "As Isness" ("even" in "less-" or "non-dualistic" terms . . .) "more likely" to be some kind of modification of a modification . . . (in the sense that, for example, Gerald might have in mind when he might pipe up with the likes of "atma/buddhi is mayavic" . . . ?) Well, but then (of course?) that's all dependent on how we "interpret" "As Isness" . . . and "w/Whatever" . . . Or maybe there's a fundamentalistic conflict of some kind (in terms of "apparent preferences") between, say, "more fundamentalistic" "As Isness" elements/influences (that might be seen as "more exoteric". . . .) and "Beness" elements/influences (that might be seen as "more esoteric" . . .) . . . "whatever" . . . Or, maybe, as an alternative to "Beness," we might (optionally?) choose "Whatever" . . . :-) Speculatively, Mauri PS If anybody had told me in my younger days that Theosophy was THIS much fun, I might've thought they were crazy. PPS . . . why is it that, as I get more serious (if in my speculative way) I tend to find more and more curious, APPARENT absurditiesand funnies, even from my perspective . . . I don't get it . . . I TRY to be responsibly serious, (generally speaking, I like to think) but . . . things happen to me, apparently. On the other hand, if certain kinds of things (like some so-called "humorous things," say---even from my perspective) just happen to me, just personally, well, THEN of course that's not as bad as things COULD be, eh . . . Well, not that things might not be bad enough, as it is, already, but, well . . . at least things are not worse, eh . . . If that's any consolation . . . PPPS Dallas, I suspect, "on the other hand," has, it seems, smartly avoided various pickles and things by . . . well, by those ways and means that Dallas "HAS," apparently . . . PPPPS Well, I suppose we all tend to . . . whatever we "tend to" . . . PPPPPS As for MY ways and means, since I'm FAR more ambitious than Dallas, (in a certain kind of "sense," I seem to like to think . . . :-) of course I regularly get myself in all kinds of things . . . PPPPPPS If this kind of PPSing and stuff isn't "too moody," eh, then what is . . . PPPPPPPS "w/Whatever" . . . PPPPPPPPS How'd you like to "pray" to "Whatever," instead of to "God" . . . Yikes . . . !? Would that kind of prayer be less "black,"say, to some Theosophists . . . But of course we humans can "symbolize" our way, "more meaningfully," by symbolizing "Jesus", "God," etc., out of our various "w/Whatever's" . . . "Symbolize" as in "creatively assign meaning to"---not that there's anything much wrong with that, exactly, as far as I can see, particularly . . . but then, well, I suppose some Theosophical types might not be too keen on symbolizing "too much" re "ANYTHING" . . . "whatever" . . . CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jun 02 05:16:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 2 Jun 2002 12:16:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 17551 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 12:16:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2002 12:16:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2002 12:16:11 -0000 Received: from pool0099.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.188.99] helo=earthlink) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17EUHI-0006aA-00; Sun, 02 Jun 2002 05:16:09 -0700 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: "advanced" and . . . Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 05:14:45 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Saturday, June 01, 2002 Dear John: You got me. I thought it was a little more generous. But let all note this is sheer THEORY -- it is HYPOTHESIS. The figures don't matter, their value does. It's about as near to infinity in physical terms as we can get. But Theosophy speaks of 7 planes of human life and consciousness, ours being the lowest -- so I assume we have a lot to learn and far to go. As we are in our true selves immortals, then there is nothing much to worry over. Everyone laughed when in the S D II 68-70 H P B gave the figures for THIS universe saying it was in our years a term of 311 trillion, and 40 billion years. [ 311,040,000,000,000 ] So it makes little actual difference whether we think of the Scientific theories and constructs or rely on the wisdom of the Adepts ( as described in S D I 272-3 ). It is an extremely long time. To me te extraordinary nature of the concept is that if we look at it in terms of energies, we are constantly bathed in so much and so many that we might as well be on fire ourselves. Our local world our planet has norms and the norm temperatures for "life as we know it" range between about 4 to 500 degrees -- from extreme cold in the polar regions to the great heat of the super-heated water rising from vents at the bottom of the oceans, and life that exists on Sulphur compounds, etc... What do we know of "life' in regions and planes outside our physical ken? Best wishes Dallas Dallas -----Original Message----- From: John E. Mead Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 9:17 PM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Re: "advanced" and . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: > A few years ago astronomers published an observation made of the > deepest space that the Hubble telescope provided. As far as they > could see about 15 to 18 billion, billion light years in time and > distance there were always more universes. So the whole surface of > the Universe, UNIVERSE was a mosaic of interlinked stars, and > galaxies. It would appear that physically at least , the UNIVERSE is > like a gigantic and unimaginable SUN -- and we all live inside it. > the age of the univers is about 13-15 billion years. they saw galaxies that formed earlier than expected.... like 12 billion years old. is this the observation you are refering to? if not, then what you say above is a misinterpretation (unless I've missed something). If you want to think of the surface of our current Universe (cosmologically), it contains only light + and space-time. i.e. if matter was on the literal edge, then it has been left-behind by the faster moving light. However, the "collision of 'Branes'" theory (two 4-D space-time Universes colliding in a higher dimensional space that creates our current Universe), then you may have matter being created on the 'edge'. just confused by your statement. could you reference the observations above that you speak of ? I am curious. peace - john e. m. From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jun 02 05:16:31 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 2 Jun 2002 12:16:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 30992 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 12:16:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2002 12:16:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2002 12:16:31 -0000 Received: from pool0099.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.188.99] helo=earthlink) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17EUHc-0006aA-00; Sun, 02 Jun 2002 05:16:28 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Where are we? What can we do? Help ? Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 05:14:59 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 June 2 2002 Thanks Georg: Take care not to confuse what I offer for the real Basic Theosophy of H P B. Any of us, who are only students, can give but what we have understood of the great Philosophy. So as I say, what I write, inevitably, has some biases (my own) in there. Always GO TO THE ORIGINALS, if you can. That is the fault of most adherents to any of the great religions. They have not studied their own scriptures AT THERE SOURCE. They have accepted interpretations -- and have been to that extent fooled and misled. It is the same with societies and groups that say they can offer "esoteric instructions." People get raked in who have no concept that "esoteric" implies first and foremost VIRTUOUS. There has to be an appreciation of the FACT that: 1. we are all immortals in essence (in SPIRIT) and therefore on the inmost planes we SHARE everything. [ You could say that in us there burns forever the inextinguishable SPARK of the One spirit, whose "Rays" touch all aspects and components of "matter." hence they are in us developed into the INDEPENDENT MIND that we are, and in other beings they are there on their path towards such independence.) The sooner we secure our own hold on these concepts, the sooner we will succeed in embodying those Theosophical fundamentals and principles of virtue in our own personal natures. 2. The Universe and ourselves are RULED continually by the same identical rules. There are no favourites." Prayers and penances and rites and rituals amount to NOTHING. The Universe is wise in its impartiality, its universality, and is merciful in its fairness to all. and under Karma we al receive exactly what we put into our life and reasons for living and deciding things. If we transgress against any one in any way, we are the only ones who can settle the debt by a balancing of the scales of Karma. There is no escape, and there is no "dust heap" somewhere, hidden in Nature, to which "mistakes" are consigned. 3. We can "hide" nothing of our true inner MOTIVES from the Great law ( of Karma, of Justice, of Mercy, and of fairness to all). 4.. We are all evolving together, and in Reincarnation, we bump into one another almost continually -- because our Karma (as personalities) mixes and mingles with others. -- as our education proceeds from life to life. There is no saving of time, but taking any one's say-so, inevitably wastes it, because it causes delay. One has to try and go to the ORIGINAL SOURCE of any statement and see, by common sense, and our own developing intuition, if it is TRUE, universal, fair, just and therefore trustworthy. Each one must approach to the study of the ORIGINALS by H P B -- who was the Master's Messenger, and of Mr. W. Q. Judge, who was her most devoted pupil, and demonstrated this by the marvelous expansion of the study of Theosophy in America, until his death in 1896. Judge was also one of the Vice-Presidents of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in those early days and one of the 3 original "founders," who never was unfaithful to the Masters. The other was Col. H S Olcott, President of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY . Best wishes, as always, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Georg Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 12:28 AM To: Subject: Re: Where are we? What can we do? Help ? Wow Dallas! I find this post the best four pages of stuff I have around here yet! I have been going out of my skull (as you know too well now) trying to feed an urge, but I could not identify the urge, nor did I know exactly what it wanted? No books fed it. I would try to meditate, and could not 'get it'. Just really an uncomfortable thing digging at my innards. Then I had a rotten day today cleaning my place from carpet to ceiling, and downloading crap on my computer that took all day and does not operate. But by and by I was able to get to my Email; all 170 something of them. I went umpf! and did the delete thing. But I found this post stand out for some odd reason, and it was spared (or I was) being another victim of the delete sequence. I had to print this one! I used to print all your postings Dallas (wow, someone just shot at this direction!), but my poor old KX-P4420 only gets 30k pages between services, and I cannot afford taking it to the shop every week:-) But yes, I can now remember when things clicked and the esoteric made sense. I remember a story I told when I was locked up (In the pen people (some) tend to think a lot). Someone asked the question "What REALLY is Right and Wrong?". Fact of the matter is that we as individuals have to act in one way or another to produce the friction we each have to by LAW do. It is not about rubbing a piece of wood to make heat (but at times it could be); it seems to be more about impacting Thoughts. For instance, a bus load of disabled children gets highjacked by some suicidal nutter, and he sends the bus over the grand canyon, none survive. All sorts of vibes would be produced as necessary and according to LAW. Now lets say that same "nutter" was raised different, and he bacame a pilot for a life flight EMS outfit; he is flying a big chopper full of needy third world kids to a hospital where they will get free plastic surgery for severe facial deformities. On route a tail rotor shatters and the pilot fights and fights to save the chopper, but it goes down anyway, killing all. In one case, most of us would say the main character is "evil", in another case the same man would be a dead "hero". I keep thinking about the book Tzava'at Harivash. In it the Baal Shem Tov uses the term "Sparks". We all have to produce sparks one way or another. What can make a difference in the way one/we perceive these sparks is up to us always. Every thing with a material existance has a feeling of whether it is going according to LAW, or whether it is contrary to. Like a Giant redwood tree, it does its thing over a long time, producing many a sparks. Or the tiny botulism spore, this happy little gram-positive bacillus that hardly anybody even thinks aboutm just marches forever forward, making its sparks wherever it can. Like the whales; what are they good for? they gave many people many sparks in many ways; made light, fed people, made women sexy, gave men jobs, and created ecoterrorism, and ecology, and nature conservation, and so on... Karma is sparks. To exist is sparks. We are going to spark no matter what. We do have a choice in how we get to spark (if we are aware we have a choice). Again though, like you mentioned Dallas ORDERLINESS IN PROGRESS. I like ants. They are simple to observe. They just do their thing, and do it well. It seems the more perfect a thing is, the more we hate it. The cockroach, fantastic animal; hated worldwide. I see humans as floundering unfortunately stupid and helpless and aimless critters bouncing off the walls trying to figure it all out? Maybe if we just started acting human like, maybe we could fit in with Nature too; and leave saying to ourselves; "Hey, I came, I saw, I did my thing, and now I go, content." My appologies for rattling on. I am sort of typing to myself I guess. I have been working on a defect of my character that has been a thorn in my side for some time now. I have a supressed hatred for one particular religion. Not against its individuals so much, but against the organization, and what it eventually doest to the individuals. Try as I might, just when I think I have this hate abollished, it sneaks up even stronger. Georg From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jun 02 10:49:15 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 2 Jun 2002 17:49:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 33591 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 17:49:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2002 17:49:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2002 17:49:14 -0000 Received: from pool0307.cvx26-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.223.52] helo=earthlink) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17EZTb-0002p3-00; Sun, 02 Jun 2002 10:49:11 -0700 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: Kumaras -- THE HIGHER SELF -- The DHYANIS -- The WISE Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 10:47:51 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 June 2 2002 Re: The mystery of the KUMARAS Dear Friend: As far as I can determine from The SECRET DOCTRINE I see they are described in several ways: 1. as the SPIRITUAL POLE OF EVERY MONAD. 2. As the HIGHER SELF OF EVERY HUMAN BEING 3. As the MAHATMAS -- the highest HUMANS, or Men who have perfected themselves. The KUMARAS ( or divine celestial chaste youths S D I 236, II 78, 577-9, ) are: the Agnishwatta Pitris -- solar deities S D I 87-8, our HIGHER SELF -- the Divine Ray one with yet divided into every aspect of Nature and all its components as the resident aspect of the ONE SPIRIT. The source of the quality of the Deity being the "omnipresence of God." In The SECRET DOCTRINE you will also find them referred to as the AGNISHWATTA PITRIS S D II 78, 82, 89, 90, they have also been called the DHYANIS S D I 456-7, II 585 and thus are also our TEACHERS or Men who have perfected themselves -- a task which we as a host of monads have now undertaken to achieve in the latter part of this Manvantara. They form the eternal Lodge of the Great Adepts on Earth ( see I U II pp 98 - 103 ) Brahma is their Father S D I 457, II 106, 249, As the DIVINE FLAMES they are said to have incarnated into the form of man in the 3rd Race ( Globe D, Round 4 ) see S D I 200 Diagram left side our Earth as at present GLOBE D.) MA ( the medial note on the Sanskrit gamut) is said to be an anagram of the Kumaras S D II 57-9, I 384, They are one of the 7 divisions of DHYAN CHOHANS -- S D I 458 571 Their Names are give in S D II 319 Patrons of the Yogis S D II 576 ( Siva, the REGENERATOR, in particular), S D II 249. They have also been called the Divine Rebels. This is paradoxical, until we realise that the independent and free mind is always in rebellion against that which it does not understand. IT HAS TO KNOW FOR ITSELF. see S D II 232, 243, 246, Also THEY REFUSED TO CREATE in the environment provided by unguided and unassisted Nature for them -- "the forms were not ready" for the holy DHYAN to inhabit THEM AND USE THEM PROPERLY -- so a delay occurred and as a result "bad" Karma was generated. This bad "karma" makes Man's Mind what it is today: independent, free, and challenging, daring, seeking to know the TRUTH of all things ( DHYAN = WISE) -- hence there had to be made a change. see S D I 191-2, 236, 457-8, II 243, 584, So there you see there are a number of meanings implicit in the word. It is a matter of the pre-history of our world as recorded in the annals of the GREAT LODGE. Best wishes,. Dallas -----Original Message----- From: AsAboveSew@aol.com [mailto:AsAboveSew@aol.com] Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 4:06 AM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Kumaras Folks, I'm new to the theos lists. Where can I find info on the arrival of the Kumaras? Any direction appreciated. Thanks. Ann --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@earthlink.net List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-14759P@list.vnet.net From gddsssuze@yahoo.com Sun Jun 02 11:39:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: gddsssuze@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 2 Jun 2002 18:39:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 2337 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 18:39:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2002 18:39:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.65) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2002 18:39:31 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.191] by n10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Jun 2002 18:39:31 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 18:39:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Adam, Eve and differentiation Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020601233624.TRNC19182.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@webmail.worldnet.att.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 8477 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "gddsssuze" X-Originating-IP: 64.154.138.197 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=6225821 X-Yahoo-Profile: gddsssuze Excuse me for interjecting here, I would like to add a few ideas that may make some sense on this subject and, please, allow me to introduce myself... my name is Suzanne. I have been listening in on this list for several years now and tho I perfer to remain a listener amongst all the great words, thoughts and ideas presented here, this current subject is very near and dear to my heart and head and having studied for many years this subject through the great works of the mystic seer Jacob Boehme, I felt compelled to say a few words. I'll be brief.... It is my understanding that if primordial man had never fallen from his purely spiritual (celestial) state and had "refused to create" (via his imagination), he would of never have learned to know the wonders of creation, the unfoldment of the third principle (nature). And so, the external (terrestrial) world, as we know it, was created by Adams fall. You see, again, my understanding, Adam was of an early race not yet physical in nature. He was of the essence of the angelic celestial world created in the image (light) of God, his Father. But, Adam, the individual light (spark) of God, began to pale as his individual desire (lust) for life in the terrestrial world grew more.... and eventually Adam fell asleep to celestial light world and awoke in a world between light and darkness, our terrestial world. And so, man, in essence, is a mixed individuality distined to be an image according to the inner and also according to the outer world. But, Adam fell victim to his own magic (the magic of his imagination), and now, for the time being, his magnificence was (and still is) gone. Sleep signifying death to the celestial world, God's Paradise, and surrender to the terrestrial world. The terrestrial world had conquered Adam and now ruled over him. (Please do not be misguided by brievity of my words here... for greater understanding of this idea and it's magnificence, I highly recommend the book, 'Mysterium Magnum' by Jacob Boehme) But, here is the point to remember... that man, was not endowed with this third principle (that of the element of the body wherein resides sensual desire) for the purpose of surrendering himself to it, but that he was endowed with this principle so that he might introduce it into the light of God and glorify Him by means of that light. In Boehmes' words, "The external world is also of God and belonging to God, and man has been created therein, so that he may bring again the external into the internal one; the end into the beginning." As for idea of differentiation, Boehme states, "The soul of Adam [Eve] fell in love the creation of the formed word in its differentiation, and not being conscious of the power of distingushing, she entered into lust, into differentiation." And after Adam awoke... "Adam having lost the power to recognise the true woman, the eternal virgin within himself [his soul, Eve] it was necessarry that he should have an external objective substitute to whom he might be attracted, so as to stimulate his power to love; which would have entirely died out without such an object, or would have degraded him still lower by turning into desire for still lower beings in the scale of evolution" (from the thoughts of Franz Hartman). (I believe HPB, in the Secret Doctrine, mentions this degradation which may have resulted in a tribe of monkeys descended from aboriginal man.) It is important to remember here too, that while Eve initiated the fall of Adam it is also Eve and only Eve that can raise Adam again to his celestial beginnings. At any rate, the history of Adam is truly the history of Mankind as a whole... it's too bad the real truth our beginnings is lost now days in the literal meaning of words. Wishing you all a happy and glorious Sunday afternoon. Most sincerely, Suzanne --- In theos-talk@y..., r.c.rivera@a... wrote: > Dallas wrote: The spirit-soul in every human is held to > be an immortal which ever reincarnates as it grows > wiser, using many bodies, but always the same as to > INDIVIDUALITY. > > I always wondered about this idea. It made me wonder > how the immortal part, as a spark(?) of the Infinite, > came to "start over again", as in needing the > opportunities to "grow in wisdom". Like if we are > immortal sparks of the Infinite, how did we arrive at > NOT being able to partake of the wisdom that is within > us by birthright? The Infinite was expressing itself in > matter and the denser the matter became, the further > consciousness separated from the Source of wisdom. I > know the fundamental Theosophical dogma answer for it > but I was looking for a more intuitive one. Is it all > within and we are too encrusted to realize? Is it part > of the plan (is there a plan?) of evolution to relearn > wisdom through many lifetimes or can we just snap out of > it at some point? Does the Infinite express itself in > the unrolling of evolution and the slower we progress > the more varied are the patterns are to be seen and > appreciated? I think of a kaleidoscope and how when you > turn it really slow it offers more beautiful and varied > joys of viewing. > > Any thoughts? > > Just wondering. :) > > Ruth > > > In each human three lines of evolution will be found combined and > > interlaced: 1. The SPIRITUAL, 2. the Intellectual/psychic, and 3. > > the physical. > > > > The spirit-soul in every human is held to be an immortal which ever > > reincarnates as it grow wiser, using many bodies, but always the same > > as to INDIVIDUALITY. > > > > The whole of Nature is rules by equity -- laws that are fair and equal > > for all. > > > > This is a brief answer. > > > > Best wishes, > > > > > > > > > > > > Dallas > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lady Firla [mailto:lilaroma@h...] > > Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 10:45 AM > > To: study@b... > > Subject: [bn-study] RE: Adam and Eve > > > > Hello everyone! > > > > I was wandering through a used bookstore yesterday, and found a book > > titled, > > "Ancient Landmarks", written by Blavatsky and printed by the United > > Lodge of > > Theosophists. Of course, I just couldn't resist bringing it home with > > me! > > Giggle, grin! :) I also couldn't resist sending an email to a friend > > to > > ask him what he knew of Blavatsky's works - he is quite well read in > > many > > areas, but has concentrated primarily on The Golden Dawn studies. I > > found > > his perspective to be thought-provoking, and I would like to share > > what he > > wrote with you: > > > > "I must confess a certain amount of ignorance when it comes to > > Blavatsky. I > > know she wrote a huge book called "The Secret Doctrine". I have never > > read > > it. I believe she also helped form the Theosophy movement with a guy > > called > > Rudolph Steiner and I have read some Steiner, many years ago. It had > > to do > > with there being seven basic stages and evolution passes us through > > each of > > these stages. Like first there was grass, then next is insects, then > > animals - dogs, cats - then humans and then like "Supermen". That's a > > real > > brief summary and it's probably kinda off. But you get the idea." > > > > I have 2 questions that I would like to ask for your opinions on: > > > > #1 - What do you think of this description of Theosophy? > > #2 - In what stage of evolution does Theosophy place things like the > > biblical story of Adam and Eve? Has any progress been made in the > > evolutionary stage of humanity since the creation of "the first man"? > > > > Thank you!! :) > > > > Love & Light to All, > > > > Debbie :) > > > > > > CUT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > > > > > --- > > Current topic is at > > http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnstudy/bibleSyllabus1999.htm > > You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval14@e...] > > To unsubscribe, forward this message to > > leave-bn-study-6660817A@l... > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ __ > > ______________________________________________________________________ __ > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Jun 02 13:51:29 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 2 Jun 2002 20:51:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 41134 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 20:51:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2002 20:51:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2002 20:51:28 -0000 Received: from pool0206.cvx4-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.146.206] helo=earthlink) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17EcJx-0006M1-00; Sun, 02 Jun 2002 13:51:25 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Helping Others Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 13:50:07 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Dear Friend: I can only offer that which I have learned from studying theosophy. It shows how the logical and the metaphysical blend in virtue -- say it succinctly. It makes history, investigation and observation its tools and demand absolute honesty, sincerity and of course discrimination, as you say. If you imagine that THEOSOPHY is something special, then dispel that idea. it is simply common sense -- a sense that is common to all and no one owns it or has any special access to an understanding of it. Theosophy is the knowledge and the wisdom of the world -- of life in general and in particular. If however one desires to devote one's life to its study and dissemination then at least a knowledge of its tenets and fundamentals is needed. Strangely we are already knowledgeable in most of them, out have not assembled them into a consecutive whole. So I would say that is our first job. To Know, to Dare to Achieve, and then to remain Silent until asked. I agree as usual with most you say. Strange but words make some differences ! The Head and the Heart doctrines have to be made to coincide. But only the living mind can do that, as I see it. Best wishes., Dallas -----Original Message----- From: gsch Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 8:11 AM To: Subject: Helping Others <<>> A worthy question, Dallas. And I wonder how you go about answering it. Do we have to study Theosophy in order to give a begger a few bucks or to hand food to someone who is hungry? Is a knowledge of Theosophy required in order to help a neighbor in distress, babysit for someone, or give someone a ride? I don't think it is. IMO, Theosophy is necessary in order to provide us with a working worldview and Path in order to develop spiritually and psychially to the point where we can look into another's aura and see what they karmically need, and then give them that. What people appear to need is not usually what they really need. Sometimes when we "help" others in what they appear to need, we delay their own spiritual progress and inadvertantly prevent their karmic development. Unless we can know what their karmic situation is, we are as apt to hurt as much as help. Although the above is my own opinion, I share it with the Bodhisattva tradition of Mahayana Buddhism, which is where I first encountered this idea. Since then, my observations with people have shown me that this is so. Without insight into the karmic needs of others, we sometimes do more damage than good. There is an occult analogy about the blind leading the blind and both falling into a ditch, which fits this situation, I think. Case in point is the US helping starving tribes in Africa by giving them food to eat. They ate and did well, had more babies, and when the care packages stopped the starvations began all over again. The US discovered that it was more productive to give them seeds and train them in agriculture so that they could grow their own food. When we look back on these kind of things with hindsight they seem obvious, but they are not obvious at first. Basically the same is true with anyone who tries to help another -- "hell is paved with good intentions" etc. Most people help others without understanding karma. We Theosophists do understand karma, and therefore we have to take it into consideration on a case-by-case basis. Can you tell a person's karmic needs? If so, then go ahead and assist them. If not, study Theosophy some more until you can. Meanwhile, help as best you can,but know that some of the help you give will actually be detrimental by increasing their karmic burden unstead of decreasing it Jerry S. From ramadoss@gbronline.com Sun Jun 02 14:22:48 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 2 Jun 2002 21:22:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 57223 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2002 21:22:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Jun 2002 21:22:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2002 21:22:47 -0000 Received: from mkr [209.12.90.86] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.10) id AC5324D01F4; Sun, 02 Jun 2002 16:21:23 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020602161114.00a904b0@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 16:24:45 -0500 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com,theos-l@list.vnet.net Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Helping Others In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Dallas: Well said. In my experience, there is transformation taking place in most of those exposed to theosophy, whether one has understood any of the detailed knowledge given out to the world in the writings in early days. Most people are very busy thinking about the issues that concern themselves and their immediate families. I have seen that exposure to theosophy changes the focus in that we tend to see what opportunities are there to help others. This attitude change helps us to identify opportunities to help that may not be apparent but for the attitude change. When opportunities present to me, I try to do what I can. It my belief that I do not want to miss even a single opportunity to be of help without worrying about whether my help is going to really help the person. MY 0.02 mkr At 01:50 PM 6/2/02 -0700, dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: >Dear Friend: > >I can only offer that which I have learned from studying theosophy. >It shows how the logical and the metaphysical blend in virtue -- say >it succinctly. It makes history, investigation and observation its >tools and demand absolute honesty, sincerity and of course >discrimination, as you say. >If you imagine that THEOSOPHY is something special, then dispel that >idea. it is simply common sense -- a sense that is common to all and >no one owns it or has any special access to an understanding of it. >Theosophy is the knowledge and the wisdom of the world -- of life in >general and in particular. If however one desires to devote one's >life to its study and dissemination then at least a knowledge of its >tenets and fundamentals is needed. Strangely we are already >knowledgeable in most of them, out have not assembled them into a >consecutive whole. So I would say that is our first job. To Know, to >Dare to Achieve, and then to remain Silent until asked. >I agree as usual with most you say. Strange but words make some >differences ! >The Head and the Heart doctrines have to be made to coincide. But >only the living mind can do that, as I see it. >Best wishes., >Dallas From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Jun 03 05:11:04 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 3 Jun 2002 12:11:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 80101 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2002 12:11:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jun 2002 12:11:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 2002 12:11:03 -0000 Received: from pool0225.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.18.225] helo=earthlink) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17Eqfp-0001vu-00; Mon, 03 Jun 2002 05:10:57 -0700 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Adam and Eve Section II Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 05:09:13 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 June 3 2002 Dear Larry: Let me see what Theosophy has to say about these, so I'll use The SECRET DOCTRINE But in looking up ADAM (and inquisitive EVE) in The SECRET DOCTRINE, I found that there are several ADAMS -- it seems to be a word used to designate a whole race of mankind --- a whole period of evolution in each case. ( see S D I 200 ) for an idea of what that covers. It generally relates to the development of the physical body and does not define the Mind and its evolution --which is a separate matter. Man-- as a race of Mind-beings, is said to have been endowed with MIND ( much as children are, by their parents and teachers) about a little over 18 million years ago ( S D I 150fn) . In The SECRET DOCTRINE on p. 181, Vol. I we are given 3 lines of evolution that meet and conjoin in each human. 1. spiritual, 2. Intellectual and emotional, and 3. physical. There are to be fund in the S D special words to describe the processes of development and then of mixing over the period now so dimly recorded in the BIBLE nd in other primitive Myths and Legends. 1 ADAM IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN If there was a "garden" into which "Mankind" (as ADAM) was introduced does this not imply Karma. The "garden" is the result of seeds already planted long back. It is a "result." But, what were the causes? Who then found the soil, found the seeds and watered them? It would seem to be a combination of the Karma of a thinking, evolving self-conscious Man/Mind living in Nature that caused all this by earlier interactions. As a locality it is said to be now submerged S D II 494, the true meaning of EDEN is given in S D II 496, The TREE OF WISDOM grew in the Garden S D I 114, 247; II 30-1, 97, 215-6, 494, 587, Tasting the Fruit of the TREE OF WISDOM: S D II 175 (Adam received intellect), 588 (gives life eternal), [Gives ability to distinguish Good from Evil: S D I 246; II 4, 124, 214-5, 293, 354-5, 6fn, ] Adam - the forefather of our race ( we are the reincarnations of those immortal Egos/MINDS -- the HOST OF THE MANASAPUTRA, (Mind-born-sons) who were then incarnated in the physical material bodies of the First Race: S D II 503, 202, The same immortal Egos/Minds are us. We are now (as physical men) using the physical bodies that our present 5th RACE provide. As MINDS we are the "immortal pilgrims:" ever on the moove, always experiencing the new, always advancing to wards perfection: S D Ii 203, "Temptation" (The ORIGINAL SIN) in the Garden of Eden is an INVENTION : S D I 383, 414, II 202, "Original sin" is explained : S D I 383, II 202, 215-16, 387, 484, 513-4, 699, There never was an "Original sin" : SECRET DOCTRINE II 261, 413, Serpent, Church made a Devil of it : S D I 442fn, 73-4, 404, II 505 (not evil), 25-6, 208, 214, 2. NAMING OF THE ANIMALS To name anything defines and sets limits to it: S D I 330. Name (sound) opens the door between the Immortal and the mortal S D I 464, Ultimate causes of "Sound" "name": S D i 514-17, Power of Sound in the "name" -- a phonetic and a psychic and a spiritual force--S D II 767, S D I 93-5, 137, 269, 293, 438-9, 464, 534-7, 555, 564-5, II 107, 335, 536, 569-70, Rhythm and Sound related to the elements: S D I307, II 107, Governed by Septenary Law: S D II 613, 622, 627-8, Atoms are called "sound" (vibrations) in Occultism : S D I 633, 565, Forces of Nature are commanded by Colors and Sounds ( vibrations): S D I 514fn, 3. NON-BIBLICAL STORY OF LILITH As I understand this it has to do with the "shadow body birth" -- a condition of a primordial astral body formation. ( The astral is also called "chhaya".) S D II 115, 149, 174, 193, 262, 679, S D I 583, This is strictly (as I understand it) a condition and period that dealt with the evolving of the physical vehicle into which, at a later date, the Manasaputras (Mind-born-sons) incarnated and became thereafter OURSELVES. Described in S D II 174, 285, 285fn, Pramalocha (a nymph) is the Hindu "Lilith" : S D II 175-6, 714, Sanjana: (Chayya - birth) S D II 101, 174, Daughter of Visvakarma: Kronos, Artificer of the Universe, Highest and Oldest Of The Gods, who sacrifices himself to HIMSELF, and is the UNIVERSAL SACRIFICE: S D II 559, 605-6, I 207-210, 268, It is symbolical of the state when, from the early and primitive astral substance, the burgeoning of the physical body began ( early 3rd Race humanity) -- also described as "perspiration from the pores" of those early bodies. -------------------------- Well, there is enough for a good evening's study. Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Larry F Kolts [mailto:llkingston2@juno.com] Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:14 AM To: study@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-study] Adam and Eve Section II Hearing no vetos, I think we should move on just a little with our Bible/SD study. We can still go over past points at any time, just feel free to ask questions or make comments as the come up. This next section is rather short. we will take up three study points, #4 on Adam's placement in the Garden of Eden, #6 on the naming of the animals, and #23 on the non-Biblical Story of Lilith. Study Point #4 Placement in Eden Gen 2:8 reads: And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. HPB has covered Eden twice. The material included in SD is quoted from her previous research in ISIS. The SD reference is vol II 202 and ISIS I 575. She writes "To begin with--the garden of Eden as a locality is no myth at all; it belongs to those landmarks of history which occasionally disclose to the student that the BIBLE is not all mere allegory. 'Eden, or the Hebrew GAN-EDEN, meaning the park or garden of Eden, is an archaic name of the country watered by the Euphrates and its many branches, from Asia and Armenia to the Erythraian Sea' Interestingly, The Jews, in their ethnocentrism seem to have made the "center-place" the starting point as it were, close to their own habitation. It's clear from a reading of Genesis that the Jews known world was fairly much the land from North Africa to Asia Minor and perhaps as far east as India. The fertile crescent was the center of the known world. So it seems that the myth was given a very real location. Study Point #6 Naming the Animals Gen 2:19-20 reads: And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. SD vol II: 1-2fn " Thus man was created BEFORE the animals ; for the animals mentioned in chapter i are the signs of the Zodiac, while the man, "male and female," is not MAN, but the Host of the Sephiroth; FORCES, or Angels "made in his(God's) image and after his likeness." The Adam, man, is not made in that likeness, nor is it so asserted in the Bible. More over, the Second Adam is esoterically a septenary which represents seven men, or rather groups of men. For the first Adam--the Kadmon-- is the synthesis of the TEN Sephiroth. Of these, the upper triad remains in the Archetypal World as the future "Trinity," while the seven lower Sephiroth create the manifested material world, and THIS SEPTENATE IS THE SECOND ADAM, Genesis, and the mysteries upon which it is fabricated, came from Egypt" Wow! Does this add information to what we have previously discussed or only confuse things? So the First Adam is an Archetype, while the Second is the man of the seven fold constitution as we have studied in our Matrix Study. What questions and/or comment do we have here? The point about Adam having found no helpmeet, logically leads to the creation of Eve, but the non-Biblical Story of Lilith needs to be discussed first. Study Point #23 The Story of Lilith This is a Jewish non-Biblical myth. 1-Lilith was the first wife of Adam 2-She was created, like Adam out of the dust of the earth, and not like Eve, from a rib out of his side. 3-Adam and Lilith were the parents of the host of demons. Indeed, Lilith is know as the Queen of the Demons. 4-Adam and Lilith, for all their prolificness, did not hit it off too well, as Adam demanded that Lilith be subservient to him, while Lilith maintained since she was of the same manner of creation, she was his equal. Eve would not have this claim. (Here's a clue Christina to your question on how women became subservient-but more on that later) 5-Lilith takes off. Adam demands she return. Angels are sent for her, want to kill her, etc. But she endures after many trials. 6-Lilith becomes the "baby killer" of Jewish legend, her jealousy, for Eve and her progeny knows no bounds. 7-Protective amulets were fashioned by the Jews to try to protect their children form Lilith. 8-Lilith became the Nightmare of Jewish children, the story mothers told their kids to get them to behave-"if you're not good, Lilith will get you" There are a number of sites I found searching under "The Story of Lilith, but this is enough background. HPB finds two meanings for this tale SD II 174 "CHHAYA-BIRTH, or that primeval mode of SEXLESS procreation, the first race having OOZED OUT, so to say from the bodies of the Pitris, is hinted at in a Cosmic allegory in the Puranas. It is the beautiful allegory and story of Sanjana, the daughter of Viswakarman--married to the Sun, who 'unable to endure the fervours of her lord,' gave him her CHHAYA (shadow, image, or ASTRAL body), while she herself repaired to the jungle to perform religious devotions, or TAPAS. The Sun, supposing the 'chhaya' to be his wife, begat by her children, like Adam and Lilith--an ETHEREAL SHADOW also, as in the legend, though an actual living female monster millions of years ago" So in one since Lilith is a typeforf the first race, the sweat born. What of this monster? SD II:262 "The numberless traditions about Satyrs are no fables, but represent an extinct race of animal men. The animal 'Eves" were their foremothers, and the human 'Adams' their forefathers; HENCE THE KABALISTIC ALLEGORY OF LILITH OR LILATU, Adam's FIRST wife, whom the Talmud describes as a CHARMING woman, WITH LONG WAVY HAIR, i.e.--a female hairy animal of a character now unknown, still a female animal, who in the Kabalistic and Talmudic allegories is called the female reflection of Samael, Samael-Lilith, or man-animal united, a being called Hayo Bischat, the Beast or Evil Beast (ZOHAR). It is from this unnatural union that the present apes descended." Now this is the exact point of argument HPB had with the evolutionists of her day. They maintained that man was descended FROM the apes. The SD reveals it is the OTHER WAY AROUND. This is miscegenation in it's true meaning, man of an earlier race mating with some animal type and producing the forerunners of modern apes. We should spend some time on this point as it is most likely new to some and a key point on where Theosophy has corrected "modern" science. I'll let some other share their knowledge of this. Larry ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnstudy/bibleSyllabus1999.htm You are currently subscribed to bn-study as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-study-6660817A@lists.lyris.net From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Jun 03 05:11:21 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 3 Jun 2002 12:11:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 63245 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2002 12:11:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Jun 2002 12:11:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 2002 12:11:20 -0000 Received: from pool0225.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.18.225] helo=earthlink) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17EqgB-0001vu-00; Mon, 03 Jun 2002 05:11:19 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: re Gerald's "great faith and devotion" Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 05:09:56 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 June 2 2002 Dear M and Friends: Blind faith or belief in any persona is fatal. Persons usually have some biases. Rare is it to find one who is so honest that they disclaim any authority at all. Run away from any one who says to you : TRUST ME. Religious bodies that demand faith and blind belief and trust -- what are they really saying? They state they will rule your lives, keep you ignorant and unhappy and without any trace of reasonable return for your "faith." They cannot demonstrate or prove any of the so-called rewards that they speak of and advertise. Who has seen Paradise? who has been to any hell worse than some we find on earth? Who has seen the JUSTICE OF GOD or stood face to face with HIM? And why not -- if HE is everywhere, then it is HIM (in you and me) who face HIM in every other place I, or we, may look. Putting one's trust in a philosophy, or a science, or logic, or maths, that one (or any one) has proved repeatedly to be fair and impartial -- is quite another matter. In theosophy we work together to find the truth of things. We believe NOTHING. We ask for demonstrations and proofs. We don't seek for people to agree with us, but rather for them to follow the lines of common sense and learn to seek for the causes and the reasons for things as they are now found -- starting with the basic questions: Who am I? What am here to do? where can I go ? Also we try to be absolutely impersonal in what we offer. Each student has to do his own seeking and proving. It takes a God-Man to do a Man's job. Best wishes, Dal. Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Mauri Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 11:05 AM To: Subject: re Gerald's "great faith and devotion" Gerald wrote: <> As I tend to see it, the sense in which there might be "great faith" in some "inner/outer" (apparent self/not-self/esoteric/exoteric) counseling or "experiential processesing" or "guruic processesing" is key in any consideration re the validity/applicability of such as implied/stated in the preceding paragraph; or, re the validity/applicability of such as the preceding might or might not be seen to involve r/Relevance in terms that might or might not be seen to "r/Relevantly transcend exoterics" . . . (the nature of one's sense of "r/Relevance" being "individualistic," relating to "higher self," karma, kama, manas, and various influences, and so might often not be particularly apparent to others). cut From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Jun 03 17:20:42 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 4 Jun 2002 00:20:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 32168 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2002 00:20:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jun 2002 00:20:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.84) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 2002 00:20:42 -0000 Received: from pool0746.cvx6-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.160.236] helo=earthlink) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17F23u-0006UP-00; Mon, 03 Jun 2002 17:20:34 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: RE to Mika Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 17:19:12 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 June 3rd 2002 Re: Changing "initial assumptions." Dear Friends: It seems to me we ought to find out exactly what "initial assumptions" are for ourselves -- it is useless to try and guess what motivates others. In any case Karma is entailed, so we might as well try to start where we can identify and control it in and for ourselves, first to render our participation harmless, supportive, generous, and useful to others -- in short, to make impersonal and impartial service our goal -- when we are the one who can and ought to provide that. But that requires discrimination. The whole of the BHAGAVAD GITA (by Krishna) deals with this theme. Patanjali, an ancient Hindu sage has written a short series of verses on this particular practice and it is like a "road-map" and worth consulting ahead of time. Both texts are available at http://www.blavatsky.net in either hard copy or in electronic mode. I think we can acquire a concept of what discrimination implies through meditation and seeking thereby to discover its meaning and the impact that it will have on us and others. Let me think about "mediation" out loud with you and see if anything comes out that may prove to be useful. I base myself on what I have studied and learned from Theosophy, but, of course, that study is probably biased on my own inclinations and personal preferences -- so for some it may not sound true or useful. Meditation is a process. Any one can use it. It is concentrated thought. It is not making the mind a "blank." It is done with full consciousness. It is the CONSCIOUSNESS of the impartial HIGHER MIND, focused on the Lower (embodied) Mind, and the pieces of knowledge and data that it has accumulated as memories. The process is therefore in the beginning the elimination of delusion, illusion, false memories, and personal desires and hopes. It is a full impersonalizing of our Mind and without any preconceptions being allowed, it is a search for the exact and true results of the search to understand a chosen subject in all its aspects: past, present, and potential futures. This implies that any vice, any animosity, any personal advantages, any kind of limitations relative to our "embodied, ordinary physical and personal lives" have to deliberately abandoned. How then does one proceed. It is probably advisable for us to consult PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS -- the verses and the strictures advanced, and the explanations offered there are very ancient and reflect the methods used and the observations made by those who have practiced meditation for ages before us now -- perhaps even we participated in those disciplines in our previous incarnations. Meditation: 1. It is used to find out for one's self the truth on any chosen subject., so 2. It begins with choosing a subject. 3. The practitioner then isolates himself for a period of time ( he selects the duration) for study, thought and the removal of impossible solutions. 4. Apart from the chosen subject, the environment and its impact on the subject have to be considered, and that series of influences identified, weighed, and given their appropriate (not any exaggerated) place. 5. No illusion or delusion can be permitted, for the reason that if one starts the practice with an error, the result is bound to be erroneous. The fault lies with the practitioner and not with the method. >From that point on the devotion and the sincerity and honesty of the meditator is alone the guide. He has to learn to guide and to correct himself (his lower self) by his IMMORTAL HIGHER SELF -- and invoke the LIGHT ON THE PATH of the ONE SPIRIT that shines in and on every being in the Universe. The final unity that gives enlightenment, is that ability to so transform the personal and the embodied self (mind) that it becomes pellucid -- transparent -- to the divine universal truth and life. Ordinary words fail to express that which is in inexpressible. I trust this may prove to be of some help. This is what I have learned from Theosophy. And it is my way of expressing an understanding of the methods of mediation that can lead to certainty and secure veracity in regard to any fact in Nature. The Universe is NATURE taken as a whole. It is the "omnipresence" of DEITY. Dallas ============================== -----Original Message----- From: mikap Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 11:03 PM To: Subject: RE Mika > Mika, if we posit a self that comes into manifestation, >undergoes "progress," and then gets out of it, we will ask >such questions, and we will find no logical answers. Usually >when we can ask logical questions that have no logical >answers, the problem lies with our initial assumptions. In this >case the initial assumption that there is a separate evolving >self is false and so we wind up with an unanswerable >question. Linear evolution is also based on a false >assumption. So, when we couple the two together, like >many Theosophists do, we have numerous logic problems. >The only way to avoid illogic is to change our initial >assumptions until they go away. And meditation is the key to changing our initial assumptions, I guess? mika From oraganon@bellsouth.net Tue Jun 04 11:25:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: oraganon@bellsouth.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 4 Jun 2002 18:25:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 25393 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2002 18:25:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jun 2002 18:25:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imf26bis.bellsouth.net) (205.152.58.86) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 2002 18:25:05 -0000 Received: from [67.34.78.13] by imf26bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020604182503.XRNJ1167.imf26bis.bellsouth.net@[67.34.78.13]>; Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:25:03 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: oraganon@mail.bellsouth.net Message-Id: Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 14:27:00 -0400 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Visionary_Shamanism@yahoogroups.com, IlluminAlch@yahoogroups.com, AgelessWisdomDiscussion@yahoogroups.com, EmeraldTablet@yahoogroups.com, TheNewSeers@yahoogroups.com, gnostic_ascension@yahoogroups.com Subject: The Living Tablet From: Ademma Indraka X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=96819079 X-Yahoo-Profile: cjrifkind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The value of individualized application: each time we step we stand=20 we fall the arrangement of patterns brings gifts of insight The value=20 of its parts equal to the whole The empirical just acts as a guide to=20 the soul in as the mortal coral intertwines itself to the value of an=20 individualized entity and all its parts The mark stands at the edge=20 of an inborn reality continually defining the purpose of a single=20 function. All parts must be present in order to reproduce the=20 entirety of the cell . Blank pages will fold in its direction The=20 divided self conquers individualize processes. In depth Association=20 with all things being one all parts serving as one function. One=20 defines the sun the moon and all of its parts as one as above so=20 below Each identifying side serves its purpose as a single motion The=20 all natural self defines itself through itself The foundation has=20 been laid it is time to rebuild. The power of the known pale in comparison to the unknown. One must=20 understand that the self and all of its parts are only as a guide to=20 the universe. To knowledge of the self is unknown as outside of one=20 is zero perfect and infinite One is all that exists Zero is existence. Oraganon --=20 :.:":=8A::,.,,;"'.:.=20 ;,.'::.":;,.,'.,:;',,::..':.;,,";"',,:;,,=8A.:.:":=8A::,.,,;"'.:.=20 ;,.'::.":;,.,'.,:;',,::..':.;,,";"',,:;,,=8A.:.:":=8A::,.,,;"'.:. ;, LLETA VUNDA MIKKA INANA EDIFI ORAGANON CULTURAL INDUSTRIES oraganon@bellsouth.net http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oraganon/ meccaR.S.V.P.- Experimental Sound; Exp http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oraganon/files/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From redrosarian@yahoo.com Tue Jun 04 14:08:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: redrosarian@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 4 Jun 2002 21:08:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 49218 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2002 21:08:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Jun 2002 21:08:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.89) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jun 2002 21:08:00 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.150] by n5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2002 21:07:59 -0000 Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 21:07:59 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: HPB and positive thinking Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 176 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "redrosarian" X-Originating-IP: 166.34.180.49 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=94777223 X-Yahoo-Profile: redrosarian Dallas and group, What does HPB say about the power of positive thinking? I trust you, Dallas, not to give me the "rose-colored glasses" version. Thanks in advance, Monica From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jun 05 03:41:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 5 Jun 2002 10:41:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 65824 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 10:41:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2002 10:41:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 10:41:29 -0000 Received: from pool0168.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.18.168] helo=earthlink) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FYEI-0003LS-00; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 03:41:27 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: re Dallas's "Soul of things," and . . . Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 03:40:03 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 June 5th 2002 Dear M and Friends: Re: MOTIVE. Lets not just play around with words, but, rather lets seek for the meanings implicit in those words used. Motives in the dictionary imply moral purposes. In Theosophy one has a presentation of the laws of the Universe and those are either used or abused. In either case the selection is deliberate or careless. The Mind operative in each human being, incessantly chooses. The REAL SELF ( The "I" ) the INTELLIGENCE that is peculiarly ME. uses the Mind as a tool.. Test this out in yourself. It is the difference between harmony (with one's environment) and disharmony (or selfish chaos and isolation). Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Mauri Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 8:05 PM To: Subject: re Dallas's "Soul of things," and . . . Dallas wrote: <> "Motive" "for" "meditating" re your "Soul of things," Dallas. . . ? When I "meditate" (actually, I generally prefer to be, rather than to "meditate" [there's another word, "be," for my Theosophiacal Glossiary,{eh!?},if I ever get a web site going]) I don't have thoughts about "motives"---what are "motives," "Dallas"?---and "selections of a subject to consider and learn about" might have some "relevance," here and there (as in Patanjalically, and . . . ), but, basically, as I see it, certain kinds of "first things," as I see them, tend to sort of "take precedence," for me . . . Of course, since we all sort of tend to have our own kinds of "first things," what can I say . . . Speculatively, Mauri PS Do some people practice motivic meditation, I wonder . . . Or, how about meditational motivity . . . ? Or, maybe, motivical mediticking . . . ? Well, whatever . . . PPS By "I generally prefer to be" (referring to my form of "meditation") I meant a kind of attraction/attention toward "less dualistic meaning" . . . Which kind of meaning, as far as I can figure out, certainly isn't available by way of any dualistic motives. From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jun 05 03:41:52 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 5 Jun 2002 10:41:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 25097 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 10:41:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2002 10:41:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 10:41:52 -0000 Received: from pool0168.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.18.168] helo=earthlink) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FYEV-0003LS-00; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 03:41:39 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Gerald's "great faith and devotion" Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 03:40:07 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 June 5 2002 Dear Bill: I agree that your son is accurate and higher maths alone is for us, at this present stage of material conditions, the totally impartial Manas or Mind in action without any bias or personal motive. Every one of your objections are also valid, depending on the thesis you adopt and whether it includes, overlaps or excludes some I advanced. I try to be impartial. I offer my thoughts and experience on that basis. My words are chosen to present those ideas for the purpose you have detected: to examine and discuss them in a friendly and constructive way. I am not trying to impress any one with what I have concluded to be useful to me. I attribute as much as possible, to Theosophy, the ability to endeavor to be universal, impartial, logical and accurate. I seek to use that wisdom that I sense there and then to broaden it. I would say in general that the value of anything is dependent on its contents. No claims are very helpful, unless the methods and sources employed to arrive at them are also disclosed. In my case I use ISIS UNVEILED, The SECRET DOCTRINE, and H P B's Articles. There are good INDEXES available so that students can recheck and cross check any statement made. I am deeply aware of this and write accordingly. To me the quality I find in the MAHATMA LETTERS and The SECRET DOCTRINE are indicative of a knowledge quite superior to mine. If Reincarnation and the immortality of the Spirit/soul are true facts, then those coupled with Universal, impartial LAW and laws, and the "Three fundamentals" ( S D I 14 -19), seem to me to be concepts that run throughout this system of thought. They serve to make it cohesive, impersonal, impartial and WISE. As to the antiquity of the "teachings" the "Proem" of The SECRET DOCTRINE and the statements made on S D I 272 to 300 appear to be useful and valid if we desire to secure an idea of the continuity of study (and its antiquity) that the Lodge of the Adepts have pursued for far more than the last 350 years. This brief period is that during which our modern Western Science has been paying closer attention to nature. It has gradually fought for and won its independence from the stifling Church. But its work has and is still the making of discoveries in that which IS ALREADY OPERATING THERE. I am staggered constantly by the fact that Nature, as a whole, is sensitive, conscious, intelligent, responsive, and has as an apparent purpose the supporting of Life in general, and of individual Living beings in whatever situation they may be. This is universal from the sub-atomic particles to the uttermost limits of Space to which our newly developed instrumentation permits us to probe. I seek to present, as far as possible, that which I have grasped. It is of course true that others see and grasp other aspects of the great puzzle of life and may be students and authorities in one or several of the many departments of nature. I have no fault to find in that, nor do I envy or decry anything observed and honestly reported. I am very conscious that theories and hypotheses evolved by scientists are not necessarily statements of causes, or of original beginnings. In fact, Science usually confines itself to its work of analysis. It likes to keep the framework of past theories available, to see if fresh discoveries can be fitted thereon. But that does in no way make of those theories FACTS or TRUTHS. But when I notice that new facts are concealed, minimized and decried, I wonder if the effort to preserve exploded theories is not destructive to the ultimate and true worth of progress and stultifying to the more rapid advance of research in our Sciences and by their teachers. Perhaps together, we can set to work and fit these many findings together into a mosaic of meaning that is satisfactory because it is both impartial and universal. But if either of us allows some prejudice to bias our open-mindedness, then our conclusions will inevitably be to that extent blunted, blurred and have to be revised later at the cost of far grater effort. Each of us will gain by a freedom of exchange, and much of the personal biases we have will to that extent be reduced. In my earlier experience, I have been an editor of scientific material, and I try to keep abreast of all that is now so rapidly emerging. I believe that this kind of study and exchange is a part of the practice of Universal Brotherhood. Facts, truths, wisdom, experience belong to us all and no one need try to secrete or hide some facts taken from Nature and make them solely their own. That in my way of thinking leads to authoritarianism and inaccuracies. Many thanks for your views so generously shared. Best wishes, Dal -----Original Message----- From: Bill Meredith Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 10:13 AM To: Subject: Re: re Gerald's "great faith and devotion" ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Theosophy Study List" Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 8:09 AM Subject: RE: re Gerald's "great faith and devotion" > June 2 2002 > > > Dear M and Friends: > > > Blind faith or belief in any persona is fatal. What is your proof for this assertion? Doesn't this conclusion rest ultimately on your personal faith? > Persons usually have some biases. Rare is it to find one who is so > honest that they disclaim any authority at all. Run away from any one > who says to you : TRUST ME. How do you square this notion with the idea of trusting and accepting on faith the claims of masters (who are after all only slightly more advanced persons.) From what I have read of their writings I sense that they too still display some biases and certainly they don't disclaim any authority. They, too, have their chiefs. > > Religious bodies that demand faith and blind belief and trust -- what > are they really saying? They state they will rule your lives, keep > you ignorant and unhappy and without any trace of reasonable return > for your "faith." They cannot demonstrate or prove any of the > so-called rewards that they speak of and advertise. Seriously Dallas, what can theosophy demonstrate or prove of the so-called future that it speaks of and advertises? Who has seen > Paradise? who has been to any hell worse than some we find on earth? > Who has seen the JUSTICE OF GOD or stood face to face with HIM? > Who has seen devechan? who has been to the thresh- hold of a new manvantura? Who has seen the JUSTICE OF KARMA or stood face to face with HIMSELF? > And why not -- if HE is everywhere, then it is HIM (in you and me) who > face HIM in every other place I, or we, may look. > > Putting one's trust in a philosophy, or a science, or logic, or maths, > that one (or any one) has proved repeatedly to be fair and > impartial -- is quite another matter. My eldest son, who is a budding mechanical engineer, after intense studies in philosophy and science and logic and the higher maths, assures me that only the higher maths can lay claim to impartiality. I concur with his assessment. In my mind what is "fair" is such a relative question as to be unworthy of utterance in the presence of Gods or Masters. But that is just my belief. > > In theosophy we work together to find the truth of things. We believe > NOTHING. Dallas, we believe theosophy is useful and gives us this day our daily bread. Some of us recognize that it is but a working model of existence. Others take it quite literally. But we all believe what we believe. To redefine our beliefs as knowledge and then to elevate such knowledge to the level of wisdom is to risk being very foolish in the end. We ask for demonstrations and proofs. We don't seek for > people to agree with us, but rather for them to follow the lines of > common sense and learn to seek for the causes and the reasons for > things as they are now found -- starting with the basic questions: > Who am I? What am here to do? where can I go ? > > Also we try to be absolutely impersonal in what we offer. > > Each student has to do his own seeking and proving. It takes a > God-Man to do a Man's job. Maybe there is no thing to seek and no thing to prove. The more we seek to prove that our particular model is in fact not a model, but the truth after all, the more entangled in manas we must become. But, of course, I have no proof for such a claim. Only the peace that comes from a personally satisfying world-view. Bill From dalval14@earthlink.net Wed Jun 05 03:41:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 5 Jun 2002 10:41:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 44010 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 10:41:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2002 10:41:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 10:41:54 -0000 Received: from pool0168.cvx36-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.18.168] helo=earthlink) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17FYEh-0003LS-00; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 03:41:51 -0700 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: to Dallas -- Faith & Trust Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 03:40:23 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 June 5th 2002 Dear Gerry, and Friends: In answer to what you write, let me say for myself, and using what knowledge that Theosophy has given, and which I think I have grasped to some extent: I trust myself. I consult the doctor. My doctor consults with me and recommends treatments. When I don't understand things, I ask, or seek several other opinions. Science and medicine are a part of my learning as an old-time scientific editor. I have learned to take nothing unreservedly. I decide to accept or reject those. I do not believe that we are in any way limited to certain narrow pieces of information about our world and its potentials. I believe we have the capacity to learn and understand anything wee place or desire and mind on grasping. I bestow my trust on those who have demonstrated and proved their impartiality and care for others in an honest and sincere way. But even so, when they offer advice I consider it carefully and critically before adopting it, and then I test its use as I go. "Faith" is always chancy. But there are times when one has to choose the best of several alternatives and employ ones' discrimination. My advice is to always seek the best advice possible, but always rely on one's own judgment before adopting such advice or making changes. Then, carefully watch and study results as they develop As to demonstration and proof -- at least the power to think is being stimulated. The nature of the INNER INDIVIDUAL (by whatever name or designation) is being more clearly perceived. A reason for existence and a reason for action, in view of a potential beneficial future (if we are in fact IMMORTALS in our Real Natures as Spiritual-Souls) has become a matter for some far closer attention than before, and for a lot of people, who by now, want to know more about what they can do with themselves, and by themselves. As to "gurus" why must any one venture to search for some "outside guru ?" Is the "guru" a crutch? If we are immortals then the ATMA that is undying, is the TRUE INNER GURU, and all our attention ought to be directed to finding and securing its help in our embodied mind-state. If you have a copy of The SECRET DOCTRINE, then on p. 167, Vol. II is a most significant and interesting statement. I don't know how else to express it. To "know God," one does not need the claims or presence of a "priest." But one has to sense the unity of our Selves (as a SPIRITUAL MIND -- BUDDHI-MANAS) in all ways with the rest of nature. The "omnipresence" of the God-Principle is either a fact or a fiction. But if true that that DEITY is everywhere present, and is accessible. For this reason I think that the First Object of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY : UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD ( the establishment of a nucleus for such) was put out first and forward. The next and most important series of statements are (to me) in The SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. I, pp. 14 - 19. Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: gschueler@earthlink.net [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 8:20 AM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Re to Dallas -- Faith & Trust <<>> Dallas, this is extreme and you know it. You trust your doctors don't you? When you eat out you have to trust the chef. We all have to trust other people every day. Personally I trust my wife with my life. I trust my children. I trust a whole lot of people. Goodness you seem to have a very negative view of people. <<>> I have so many poeple telling me to trust them (bankers, lawyers, nieghbors, doctors, co-workers, merchants, etc) that I would be hard pressed to run away from them all. <<>> Why? Trust is trust, and faith is faith. You seem to trust the written words of dead people more than the spoken words of living people, Dallas. I wonder why? <<>> Words, words words. Theosophy is itself a belief system or worldview, Dallas. I think you are kidding yourself. As rebuttal, tell me what you have proved so far. You have been a Theosophist for many years, Dallas, and a good one. What have you proved? What have you demonstrated? What can you demonstrate to me? Can you give an honest answer even to yourself? Where are there any Theosophists "working together to find the truth of things?" I look around and see them reading and studying and trying to put concepts they found in books into their daily lives, but I see so "truth" no "proof" and no "demonstrations." In fact, I see a lack of any real understanding about those very concepts. In Christian Science, we healed and "proved" the truth of this religion every day. How do Theosophists prove their Theosophy? If you are going to post statements like the above, the least you can do is back them up with something. <<< We ask for demonstrations and proofs.>>> There are no "proofs" -- if there were everyone would be a Theosophist. Surely you know that. Where are your proofs? Why don't you show them to the world? Why are Theosophists less than half of one percent of the population? <<< We don't seek for people to agree with us, but rather for them to follow the lines of common sense and learn to seek for the causes and the reasons for things as they are now found -- starting with the basic questions: Who am I? What am here to do? where can I go ?>>> Perhaps the real problem here is that Exoteric Theosohy is not common sense. Nor is esoteric Theosophy for that matter. If a person knew "who am I" then they wouldn't need to "seek" any more, would they? Common sense tells us that we have a self that is separate from a not-self, yet common sense is wrong. Common sense tells us that the external world exists independently from our minds. And again common sense is wrong. Dallas, with such an attitude, such an untrusting nature: How will you ever find a guru or learn from one? Shame, but its your choice. How does one so enmeshed in manas get out of it? When the student is ready the guru will appear -- until one can recognize a guru and put their ego (alias manas) aside enough to trust him or her, they are not ready. Have a nice day. Jerry S. --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@earthlink.net List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-14759P@list.vnet.net From oraganon@bellsouth.net Wed Jun 05 07:41:05 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: oraganon@bellsouth.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 5 Jun 2002 14:41:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 18960 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 14:41:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2002 14:41:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imf04bis.bellsouth.net) (205.152.58.44) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 14:41:05 -0000 Received: from [67.34.182.98] by imf04bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020605144231.MKXE21487.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@[67.34.182.98]> for ; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:42:31 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: oraganon@mail.bellsouth.net Message-Id: Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 10:43:04 -0400 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Question of the paths Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Ademma Indraka X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=96819079 X-Yahoo-Profile: cjrifkind I have been studying Dharma lately and I cam across the eight fold path. I was wondering why HPB choose to stick with the seven fold path as well as o lannoo. Through almost all my meditations there has been an even amount of pastures. It is baffling to me as the the seven fold path is undoubtedly connected with western thinking. I only understand partly of how it is used in the book of the dead . And isn't it true that there is really 8 planets. Be Well Oraganon From bartl@sprynet.com Wed Jun 05 08:21:39 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 5 Jun 2002 15:21:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 53696 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 15:21:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2002 15:21:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mclean.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.57) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 15:21:39 -0000 Received: from nycmny1-ar4-4-43-236-154.elnk.dsl.gtei.net ([4.43.236.154] helo=sprynet.com) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17FcbT-0006Or-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 05 Jun 2002 11:21:39 -0400 Message-ID: <3CFE2C4D.21F66CE9@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 11:20:45 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Question of the paths References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=690370 X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 Ademma Indraka wrote: > > I have been studying Dharma lately and I cam across the eight fold path. I > was wondering why HPB choose to stick with the seven fold path as well as o > lannoo. She got a discount. > And isn't it true that there is really 8 planets. Around the sun? I believe that Pluto has recently been demoted to a moon of Neptune.... Bart Lidofsky From eldon@theosophy.com Wed Jun 05 09:41:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_3_2); 5 Jun 2002 16:41:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 26163