From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Mar 01 00:51:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 08:51:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 65732 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 08:51:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 08:51:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d10.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.42) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 08:51:23 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id r.10c.db67a55 (1332) for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 03:51:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <10c.db67a55.29b09b05@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 03:51:17 EST Subject: Re: Re[2]: Theos-World is ether needed as a medium to propagate light? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 39 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=4099972 X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 02/27/02 6:49:16 PM, alwilli@iafrica.com writes: >Hello leonmaurer, >Wednesday, February 27, 2002, you wrote: > >> Today, however, the leading edge of physical science (11 dimensional >> Superstring/M-brane, quantum gravity theories, etc.) recognizes that such >> vacuum space contains "perturbations" or vibrating fields of sub-quantum >> energy calculated to be in the form of vibrating "strings" (or "rays" >> as we say in theosophy) that fills it completely. > >I must say Leon, that while I am very interested in all the newest thought >on these things, you describe it in a way that seems to maintain the >mystique of science. Can you not translate it into a language others can >relate to? > >Well, I suppose, the very inventors of these theories first failed in that >and one should not expect you to do any better. But if you can, using >analogy, metaphor and the other staples of explanation, please try simplify, >or explain simply, what superstring theory, and M-brane theory, are trying >to describe. > >> It follows that, if so, and those vibrations or transcendental fields are >> vibrating at frequencies much higher than that of the electromagnetic >> spectrum -- they must act as "carriers" of the physical light and other >> electromagnetic waves that move through them -- much like the way high >> frequency radio waves "carry" or modulate the lower frequency waves of the >> sound and picture images they transmit to our receivers (which are analogous > >> to our eyes and ears, by the way). > >Actually, I would say our eyes an ears are capable of discerning the >frequencies higher than that of the electromagnetic spectrum. It's just >that science, up till now, has refused to acknowledge it. > >> Thus, this property of the vacuum would appear to make such zero-point >> energy (or "fifth force") the supposed "ether" or etheric force that is >> necessary to support or "carry" the entire physical universe, including all >> its electromagnetic forces (including "light") as well as the electro-weak, >> strong, and gravitation forces that hold everything together. > >I'm not sure that you have accurately identified ZPF with the laya point, >although it seems that the two could be so equated. However, it is my belief >that ZPF is a condition of every point in the physical world (everywhere >and nowhere), but a laya point is of a completely different order. We must >always bear in mind that our physical world is but an phenomenon of a >higher noumenon. > >> As an added observation... This etheric force supposedly filling the "vacuum" >> of space, if incorporated across the board in scientific thinking, would >> account for "action-at-a-distance" or the entanglement of fundamental quantum >> particle-pairs noted in recent CERN experiments -- (as well as its static >> "zero-point" root accounting for "Inertia")... While, also accounting for > >Inertia is not possible, it is merely a description of a (transitional) >state, the dynamics of which are well understood in physical physics. But >in a higher state much is happening. Inertia is a process, despite the >perception that it is somehow a tendency to stasis. Stasis is impossible, >except only as a brief perception in centuries of scientific observation. >But centuries are too short to proclaim certainty on things acting over >millenia. > >> many observations or experiences of psi phenomenon, explaining the roots >> and "mechanics" (or coenergetic "field effects") of consciousness, perception, >> mind, memory and will, and possibly negating or modifying the current >> theories of non causal quantum "indeterminacy"... All of which have been >> and still are baffling established physical science... (More or less verifying > > > Baffling because those who perceive these phenomenon are as yet unable > to reduce their perceptions (because they do not understand fully what they > perceive) to terms which the rest of us can grasp. > >> Einstein's observation that "God doesn't play dice"-- while confirming >> all the Cosmogenesis theories and fundamental principles of theosophy.) > >All Cosmogenesis theories? I would venture that SDs is the only one, so far, >that subsumes, or otherwise explains, all others - and accommodates Einstein >and Quantum physics. If there is another "theosophical" work which does >as much or better, I would very much like to know of it. > >Leon, I admire your quest to validate in science the scientific implications >of IU and SD. But you must be aware, having read them both, that science >as commonly practiced is an intellectual trap for the unwary. It is so easy >to surf on the physical wave. You will even extract some limited benefit >therefrom. But you also might find yourself confined to a spinning vortex >promising everything, but yielding only further promises. >-- >Best regards, >Alan >mailto:alwilli@iafrica.com > From samblo@cs.com Fri Mar 01 02:15:25 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 10:15:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 95287 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 10:15:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 10:15:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.103) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 10:15:22 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.5.) id r.bd.1cc37160 (17379) for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:15:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:15:20 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World To Larry, Re "Central Sun" and Smith. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=27151446 Brigitte and all, Well some of the discussion about the "Central Sun" and "Black Sun" as well as the mention of the Cabalistic Rabbi Luria motivated me to browse the book "the Bahir" by Aryeh Kaplin. In it there are a mention about Luria's Teaching on "The Lamp of Darkness." As it seems to cogent to the general perspective I mention it. In doing a search on Google for the same "Lamp of Darkness" I came across this website which I know will pleasure Leon if no one else. I found it good reading. www.geeboosh.com/10.htm John From bri_mue@yahoo.com Fri Mar 01 03:36:55 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 11:36:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 81246 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 11:36:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 11:36:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n35.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.85) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 11:36:53 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.130] by n35.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2002 11:36:53 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 11:36:53 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World The origine of the Central Sun. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 699 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "bri_mue" X-Originating-IP: 203.146.223.81 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=62965613 X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue MNS: "I agree. It goes back as early as the Vedas, the oldest religious texts known to mankind." I have sort of the forerunner of the alchemical Gold seen mentioning in the Vedas, but the term "Central Sun" ? Where, which authentic verses ? Bri. --- In theos-talk@y..., "redrosarian" wrote: > --- In theos-talk@y..., Larry F Kolts wrote: > > The idea of a "central sun" certainly did not originate with > > Randolph in 1856. > > I agree. It goes back as early as the Vedas, the oldest religious > texts known to mankind. > > MNS From bri_mue@yahoo.com Fri Mar 01 04:09:43 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 12:09:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 54462 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 12:09:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 12:09:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.53) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 12:09:42 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.32] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2002 12:09:41 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 12:09:40 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World To Larry, Re "Central Sun" and Smith part II. Message-ID: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 4030 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "bri_mue" X-Originating-IP: 203.146.223.81 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=62965613 X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue Yes and you find the "christian" version of this in among others Knorr von Rosenroth`s Kabbala Denudata and severral other books of the 17th century. Also Blavatsky's theory of the Monad come from these quarters, appreciated and distributed in esoteric circles that time, its original formulation stems from the flemish Franz Mercurius van Helmont. Well known as an Alchemist, Hermetist and his theory about reincarnation, van Helmont in fact was just as much a budding scientist as Leibniz. And if in the US you might not have heared so much about van Helmont, for shure you must be aware of Anne Conway one of Helmont's benefactors who wrote severral books including on van Helmont's theories about reincarnation. Leibnitz and van Helmont where very well aware of each other theories because Leibnitz traveled all the way and spent a whole month with van Helmont to disscus these matters in a place in Southern Germany , where soon there after the first seeds for the famous secret society developed that later Blavatsky's granfather became a member of. But even if it was not in the library of her grandfather there where countles of other ways Blavatsky would have come in contact with this version of the Monad. Details about the conversations between Leibnitz and van Helmont you'l find in Anne Besco's: "Leibniz et Francois Mercure van Helmont. Bagatelle pour les Monades." 1978. It is good to be aware also that we are dealing with the misunderstanding called the "Christian" Cabalah, and then developed a new misunderstanding that moving with the fashion of the time in the 19th century called the "Oriental Cabalah" ) , and Leibniz see Allison Coudert "Leibniz and the Kabbalah", Dordrecht 1995. A book that shows details about the van Helmont Monadic theories by the way is is Frank Baudach "Planeten der Unschuld"(translated:Planets of Inocence), 1993. It ultimate as I mentioned van Helmont Monadic theory has many elements that one finds back with Swedenborg who stood under the direct influence of van Helmont but also the works of P.B.Randolph (via the European esoteric groups he visited in Paris and London,particularly those influenced by Cagliostro) E.H.Britten (important co-founder of the TS) and other litterature in 19th century US. It is interesting that another co-founder of the TS , Sotheran publicly stated (wich wenn it wasn't true as verbal she was, Blavatsky would certainly have made a counterclaim) that before the founding of the Theosophical Society he and Blavatsky, had known each other well "not only as advanced masons, but as Brothers of the Rosy Cross.And that in fact, it was first intended that the society organized for work on the exoteric plane should be openly known as what it really is (or was originally) a branch of the Rosicrucian Brotherhood. ."The Theosophical Society was in fact merely a convenient front, erected because "it was not judged wise to take the outer world into the secret of the Rosicrucian origin of the society." (This quoted from an article by Sotheran "Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit" Spiritual Scientist 2, no.22,August 5,1875, p.257) Bri. --- In theos-talk@y..., samblo@c... wrote: > Brigitte and all, > Well some of the discussion about the "Central Sun" and "Black Sun" > as > well as the mention of the Cabalistic Rabbi Luria motivated me to > browse > the book "the Bahir" by Aryeh Kaplin. In it there are a mention > about Luria's > Teaching on "The Lamp of Darkness." As it seems to cogent to the > general > perspective I mention it. > > In doing a search on Google for the same "Lamp of Darkness" I came > across > this website which I know will pleasure Leon if no one else. I found > it good reading. > > > www.geeboosh.com/10.htm > > > John From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Mar 01 04:41:06 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 12:41:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 93173 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 12:41:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 12:41:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 12:41:05 -0000 Received: from pool0114.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.152.114] helo=earthlink) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gmLK-0001mA-00; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:40:58 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Big Bang? Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 04:33:23 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: <20020226175740.19545.qmail@web13509.mail.yahoo.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Tuesday, February 26, 2002 Re: Beginnings of Evolution -- Was there a BIG BANG ? You concluded: "Life comes from life." Tuesday, February 26, 2002 Re: WAS THERE A BIG BANG ? Dear Terrie: I think you are quite right in your conclusion that everything in existence has a cause and a start somewhere. If we have "life" now, then it came from a previous "living." Every being, man included begins "living" at some time. There are many degrees and stages of living and some are not always visible. For instance a wish, a feeling or a thought are invisible, but they are real and carry with them the power of the being that generated them. A couple of thousand years ago, perhaps older still, the Great Teacher Hermes of Egypt is reputed in his books to have said: "A stone becomes a plant; a plant becomes an animal; an animal becomes a man, and, a Man becomes a "God." Never has any being retrograded. Evolution is the development of consciousness ever forward, ever expanding to the infinite. The great wonder is that the evolutionary panorama we witness today is so diverse that it forces us to consider that there is a universal MIND that has worked out the details in advance, and is now implementing this enormous plan, which, in a most sensitive way, sees to and adjusts the progress of every thing -- from "Atom" to "Galaxy." In the East the Hindu philosophers called this "Karma." This should lead us to conclude that behind this great intelligence there is purpose. Purpose demands cooperation, and the developing intelligences of all individual beings. There is to be seen always present the tendency to interact for the benefit of all as a UNIT. Not everyone sees this, because we are so caught up in diversity, and in analysis. We overemphasize differences instead of comparing correspondences and analogies. Nature is said to be supremely economic, and uses analogy and correspondence all the time in her assistance to the many diverse units whose life she supports -- as for instance from the ameba to the Whale, or the Atom to the Earth and the Universe as a whole. Here are some of the statements made in Theosophical doctrine and history concerning this. I hope this will interest you and you will take a little time to look it over. If there are more questions, do not hesitate to ask further. best wishes, Dallas --------------------------------- WHEN AND HOW DID EVOLUTION BEGIN ? To begin with, it ought to be made clear that Theosophy is that ocean of knowledge which spreads from shore to shore of the evolution of sentient beings; unfathomable in its deepest parts, it gives the greatest minds their fullest scope, yet, shallow enough at its shores, it will not overwhelm the understanding of a child. It is Wisdom, for it is the science of sciences. It is therefore complete in itself and sees no unsolvable mystery anywhere. It throws the word coincidence out of its vocabulary. It hails the reign of law in everything and every circumstance. It is not a belief or dogma formulated or invented by man, but is a knowledge of the laws which govern the evolution of the physical, astral, psychical, and intellectual constituents of nature and of man. Theosophy knows that the whole is constituted of the visible and the invisible, and perceiving outer things and objects to be transitory, it grasps the facts, and causes of nature, both without and within. The vast array of objects and men are not mere collections of atoms fortuitously thrown together and thus without law evolving law, but down to the smallest atom all is soul and spirit ever evolving under the rule of law which is inherent in the whole. Theosophy teaches that the course of evolution is the drama of the soul and that nature exists for no other purpose than the soul's experience. And so it is with the Universe, which is the reincarnation of an earlier Universe. And our Earth which is a reincarnation of the "Moon." Nature never does anything by fits and starts, hence the appearance of our physical Universe is the result of evolutionary processes that have taken place on more ancient, and in some cases, planes of matter that are presently invisible to us. There was no "Big Bang" whereby our Universe emerged, all of a sudden, from some mysterious point or as the product of some unbelievably vast explosion. But The SECRET DOCTRINE (see Vol. I) teaches that under the Law of Universal karma then physical emerged simultaneously out of the plane of the invisible into the plane of the material substance we know. From the invisible "astral" matter the "solid matter" became manifest, and this "solid matter" (which in effect includes the invisible air, gasses, vapors, heat, light, electricity, sound, and other forces is in fact a condensation of that "astral" substance made up of still more subtle forces and powers. SCALES OF INTELLIGENCE -- THE SAGES The Theosophist agrees with the wise Prof. Huxley in the assertion that there must be beings in the universe whose intelligence is as much beyond ours as ours exceeds that of the black beetle. And those possessing such advanced intelligence naturally take an active and cooperative part in the government of the natural order of things. They are the active, and wise assistants of Nature, [which is a name given to the UNIVERSE] as a whole. The Theosophist adds that such Wise Sages are Intelligences which were once human, and came like all of us from other and previous worlds. The most intelligent being in the universe, man, has never, been without a friend, but has a line of Elder Brothers who continually watch over the progress of the less progressed, preserve the knowledge gained through aeons of trial and experience, and continually seek for opportunities of drawing the developing intelligence of the race to consider the great truths concerning the destiny of the soul. We are therefore not appearing for the first time when we come upon this planet, but have pursued a long, an immeasurable course of activity and intelligent perception on other systems of globes, some of which were destroyed ages before the solar system condensed. UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION -- ITS RECORDS This immense reach of the evolutionary system means, that this planet on which we now are, is the result of the activity and the evolution of some earlier one that died long ago. It left its energy to be used in the bringing into existence the earth. Further, the inhabitants of the Earth, in their turn, came from some older world. They are now proceeding with their destined work in the "matter" we are familiar with here. The Elder Brothers of the human race, keep the knowledge they have gained of the laws of nature in all departments, and are ready when cyclic law permits to use it for the benefit of mankind. They have always existed as a body, all knowing each other, no matter in what part of the world they may be, and all working for the race in many different ways. [see ISIS UNVEILED, Vol. 2, pp. 98-103] They have stood by the cradle of nations and seen the vast achievements of the ancients, watched sadly the decay of those who had no power to resist the cyclic law of rise and fall; and while cataclysms seemed to show a universal destruction of art, architecture, religion, and philosophy, they have preserved the records of it all, in places secure from the ravages of either men or time. They have made minute observations, through trained psychics among their own order, into the unseen realms of nature and of mind, recorded the observations, and have preserved the record. And, greater feat than all -- one which implies a knowledge of the very foundations of nature -- they know what the ultimate divisions of time are and what are the meaning and the times of the cycles. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I, pp. 272-3 ] CYCLES OF KNOWLEDGE AND EVOLUTION Under cyclic law, during a dark period in the history of mind, the true philosophy disappears for a time, but the same law causes it to reappear. It is the Master's work to preserve the true philosophy, but the help of the companions is needed to rediscover and promulgate it. The periods, when out of the Great Unknown there comes forth the visible universes, are eternal in their coming and going. These alternate with equal periods of silence and rest in that Unknown. The object of these mighty waves is the production of Perfect Man, the evolution of Soul, and they always witness the increase of the number of Elder Brothers. The Elder Brothers are the highest product of evolution through whom alone, in cooperation with the whole human family, the further regular and workmanlike prosecution of the plans of the Great Architect of the Universe can be carried on. The Sanskrit "Mahatma" best identifies them. It means "Great Soul," and as all men are Souls, the distinction of the Mahatma lies in greatness. THEOSOPHY DEALS WITH OUR EARTH IN THE UNIVERSE The teachings of Theosophy deal for the present with our earth, although its purview extends to all the worlds, since no part of the manifested universe is outside the single body of laws which operate upon us. Our globe being one of the solar system is certainly connected with other planets, but as the great human family has to remain with its material vehicle -- the earth -- until all the units of the race which are ready, are perfected, the evolution of that family is of greater importance to the members of it. SEVEN-FOLD NATURE AND MAN -- " 7 PRINCIPLES" The universe evolves from the unknown, on seven planes, and in seven ways in all worlds. And this sevenfold differentiation causes all the worlds of the universe, and the beings thereon, to have a septenary constitution. The divisions of the sevenfold universe may be laid down roughly as: The Absolute, Spirit, Mind, Matter, Will, Akasa or AEther, and Life. In place of "the Absolute" we can use the word "Space." For "Space" is that which ever is, and in which all manifestation must take place. Our knowledge begins with differentiation, and all manifested objects, beings, or powers are only differentiations of the Great Unknown. The most that can be said of the Absolute" is that IT periodically differentiates itself, and periodically withdraws the differentiated into itself. As to "the Absolute," we can do no more than say IT IS. None of the Great Teachers of the School ascribe qualities to "the Absolute," although all qualities exist in It. The first differentiation -- speaking metaphysically as to time -- is Spirit, with which appears Matter and Mind. This is a Unit, and, called the "Monad." [ In manifestation, it is a triune Unity, consisting of: ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS, or, Spirit - Wisdom - Mind] The Monad is held to be immortal throughout the great life-cycle, whether Manvantara or Kalpa. It is the basis for human Individuality. The ancient teaching always held, as is now admitted by Science, that we see or perceive only the phenomena but not the essential nature, cause, or being of those powers and forces that cause "solid" Matter to appear.. UNIVERSAL PLAN OF MANIFESTATION Mind (the Universal Mind or Mahat) is the intelligent part of the Cosmos. In the collection of seven differentiations roughly sketched above, Universal Mind is that in which the Plan of the Cosmos is fixed or contained. This Plan is brought over from a prior period of manifestation, which added to its ever-increasing perfectness as it proceeds. No limit can be set to its evolutionary possibilities in perfectness, because, as there was never any beginning to the periodical manifestations of "the Absolute," there never will be an end, but forever the going forth and withdrawing into the Unknown will go on. Wherever a world or system of worlds is evolving there the Plan has been laid down in Universal Mind, the original force comes from Spirit, the basis is Matter -- which is in fact invisible -- Life sustains all the forms, and Akasa is the connecting link between Matter on one side and Spirit-Mind on the other. HOW OLD IS OUR EARTH? The real age of the world has long been involved in doubt for Western investigators, who up to the present have shown unwillingness to take instruction from the records of Oriental people much older than the West. Yet with the Orientals is the truth about the matter. It is admitted that Egyptian civilization flourished many centuries ago, and there are no living Egyptian schools of ancient learning to offend modern pride. The inscriptions cut in rocks and written on papyri or ancient books, obtain a little more credit today than the living thought and record of the Hindus, Tibetans, Mayans and Chinese Those races and their traditions, are still among us, and it would never do to admit that such ancient, and recently conquered races, possesses knowledge respecting the age of man and his world which the "West" still knows nothing of. But the Master Theosophists know what is to be the resurrection of the old pyramid builders of the Nile valley, and where the plans of those ancient master masons have been hidden from the profane eyes until the cycle should roll round again for their bringing forth. When Egypt and India were younger there was a constant intercourse between them. They both, thought alike, but fate ruled that of the two the Hindus only should preserve the old ideas among a living people. EVOLUTION RECORDED IN BRAHMANICAL RECORDS No mind can comprehend the "Infinite and Absolute Unknown," which IS, has no beginning and shall have no end; which IS both last and first, because, whether differentiated or withdrawn into ITSELF, IT ever is. This is the "God" spoken of as the one around whose pavilion there is darkness. This cosmic and human chronology of the Hindus may still be laughed at by western Orientalists and Scientists, yet they can furnish nothing better and are continually disagreeing with each other on the same subject. As years pass since Theosophy was promulgated, Science has come closer in their estimates to the figures of the Oriental chronology. The Brahmanical records of Hindustan, and their doctrine about the days, nights, years and life of Brahma, who representing the universe and the worlds, at once upset the interpretation so long given to the Mosaic tradition, insofar as time is concerned. The Day of Brahma is said to last one thousand years, and his night is of equal length. This may be construed to be a statement of the periodical coming forth, for great days and nights of equal length of the universe of manifested worlds. A Day of Brahma is made up of what are called Manvantaras -- or period between two men -- fourteen in number. These include four billion three hundred and twenty million mortal, or earth years, which is one Day of Brahma. [4,320,000,000 years] And Brahma's "Night" is of similar duration, when all is periodically withdrawn into the "Unknown Absolute." When this day opens, cosmic evolution, so far as relates to this solar system, begins and occupies between one and two billions of years in evolving the very ethereal first matter before the astral kingdoms of mineral, vegetable, animal and men are possible. PLANS AND MATERIAL IN EVOLUTION In these the, very distant and very silent past, Man could not have his bodily temple to live in, until all the matter in and about his world had been found by the Master, the spiritual and eternal Inner Man. Once found, the plans for working it required to be carried out in detail, until all the parts should be perfectly ready and fit for placing in the final structure. This is the gradual coming forth of the known and heterogeneous from the unknown and homogeneous. The ancient Egyptian and Hindu Theosophists never admitted a creation out of nothing, but ever strenuously insisted upon evolution, by gradual stages. All the various powers and potentialities needed, had to be well worked out in this slow but sure process. At last man is put upon the scene: a sevenfold being, a miniature of the universe and earth, which are sevenfold. Each of Man's seven principles is derived from one of the great first seven divisions. And each relates to a planet, by analogy, or a scene of evolution; and to a race in which that evolution was carried out. So the first sevenfold differentiation is important to be borne in mind, since it is the basis of all that follows; just as the universal evolution is septenary so the evolution of humanity, sevenfold in its constitution, is carried out upon a septenary Earth. This is spoken of in Theosophical literature as the Sevenfold Planetary Chain, and is intimately connected with Man's special evolution. [see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I, pp. 570-574] CONSOLIDATION OF MATERIALS AND FORMS This second step takes some three hundred millions of years, and then still more material processes go forward for the production of the tangible (physical matter) kingdoms of nature, including man. This covers over one and one-half billions of years. And the number of solar years included in the present "human" period is over eighteen millions of years. [SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I, pp. 150, footnote] During all these ages before man's physical body came into being, evolution was carrying on the work of perfecting various powers which are now our possession. This was accomplished by the Ego or Real Man going through experience in countless conditions of matter, all different one from the other, and the same plan in general was and is pursued as prevails in respect to the general evolution of the universe. That is, details were first worked out in spheres of being very ethereal, metaphysical, in fact. Then the next step brought the same details to be worked out on a plane of matter a little more dense, until at last it could be done on our present plane of what we miscall "gross matter." This is called the "descent of Spirit into Matter." When the rough work was completed, when the human "temple" was erected, many more ages were required for all the servants, and the councilors to learn their parts, so that man, the Master, might be able to use the physical temple for its best and highest purposes. Theosophy alone, inclusive of all systems and every experience, gives the key, the plan, the doctrine, the truth of these great natural processes. To state it in another way. The Plan comes first in the Universal Mind, after which the astral model or basis is made, and when that astral model is completed, the whole process is gone over so as to condense the matter, up to the middle of the Fourth Round. In the vast stretch of time which began after the first almost intangible matter had been gathered and kneaded, the material and vegetable kingdoms had sole possession here with the Master -- man -- who was hidden from sight, within, carrying forward the plans for the foundations of the human temple. All of this requires many, many ages, since we know that nature never leaps. It is stated that the stream of Monads begins first to work up the mass of matter in what are called elemental conditions when all is gaseous or fiery. For the ancient and true theory is that no evolution is possible without the "Monads" as the innumerable vivifying agents. In this first stage there is no animal or vegetable. Next comes the mineral when the whole mass hardens, the Monads being all imprisoned within. Then the first Monads emerge into vegetable forms which they construct themselves, and no animals yet appear. Next the first class of Monads emerges from the vegetable and gradually produce the animal forms. Then, the human astral and shadowy model is constructed, and we have minerals, vegetables, animals and future men, for the second and later classes are still evolving in the lower kingdoms. Upon this earth and upon the whole chain of Globes of which it is a part seven races of men appeared simultaneously, coming over to it from other globes of an older chain. And in respect to this earth -- the fourth of this chain -- these seven races came simultaneously from another Globe of this chain. This appearance of seven races together happens in the first and in part of the second Round of the globes. In the second round the seven masses of beings are amalgamated, and their destiny after that is to slowly differentiate during the succeeding rounds until at the seventh round the seven first great races will be once more distinct, as perfect types of the human race as this period of evolution will allow. At the present time the seven races are mixed together, and representatives of all are in the many so-called races of men as classified by our present science. The object of this amalgamation and subsequent differentiation is to give to every race the benefit of the progress and power of the whole derived from prior progress in other planets and systems. For Nature never does her work in a hasty or undue fashion, but, by the sure method of mixture, precipitation, and separation, brings about the greatest perfection. And this method was one known to the Alchemists, though not fully understood in all its bearings even by them. But there is no vagueness on the point that seven great "Races, or types" have to evolve here on this planet, and that the entire collection of races has to go seven times round the whole series of seven Globes. When the middle of the Fourth Round is reached no more Monads emerge into the human stage, and will not until a new planetary mass, reincarnated from ours, is made. This is the whole process roughly given, but with many details left out, for in one of the Rounds man appears before the animals. But this detail need lead to no confusion. What has become at last "man" is of vastly greater age, for before the present two sexes appeared, the human creature was sometimes of one shape and sometimes of another, until the whole plan had been fully worked out into our present form, function, and capacity. This is found referred to in ancient books, where man is said to have been at one time globular in shape. This was at a time when the conditions favored such a form, and of course, it was longer ago than eighteen millions of years. And when this globular form was the rule, the sexes as we know them, had not differentiated and hence there was but one sex, or if one prefers, no sex at all. Human beings did not appear here in two sexes first. The first were of no sex, then they altered into hermaphrodite, and lastly separated into male and female. And this separation into male and female for human beings was over 18,000,000 years ago. For that reason is it said, in these ancient schools, that our humanity is 18,000,000 years old and a little over. SENSES OF PERCEPTION AND ACTION In these early conditions and states, the senses existed in germ, as it were, or in idea, until the astral plane which is next to this one was first arrived at, and then they were concentrated so as to become the actual senses we now use through the agency of the outer physical organs. These outer organs of sight, touch and hearing, smelling and tasting, are often mistaken by the unlearned or the thoughtless for the real organs and senses; but he who stops to think, must see that the senses are interior, and that their outer organs are but mediators, or links, between the visible universe and the real perceiver within. MONADIC EVOLUTION Considering our Earth, the view put forward by Theosophy regarding its genesis, its evolution and the evolution of the Human, Animal and other Monads, is quite different from modern ideas, and in some things contrary to accepted theories. We find that the Scientific theories of today are not stable. They change with each century, while the Theosophical one never alters. It is the result of age-old and continuous verification by the Elder Brothers. These have now caused its repromulgation and pointed to its confirmation in ancient books and traditions. To them, it is a statement of facts in nature. The modern Scientific theories in an attempt to speculatively rebuild an unknown past, are, on the contrary, always doubtful, changeable, and continually altered. There are continuous attempts to secure proof of these theories, but nothing has proved conclusive so far. ROUNDS, GLOBES, RACES The sevenfold Earth is a living oneness -- a sentient entity -- and not a mere lump of gross matter. Being an entity of a septenary nature, there must be six other Globes which roll with it in space. This company of seven Globes has been called the "Earth Chain," or, the "Planetary Chain." To make this concept clear Theosophy states: The earth is one of seven globes, in respect to man's consciousness only, because when he functions on one of the seven he perceives it as a distinct globe and does not see the other six. This is in perfect correspondence with man himself who has six other constituents of which only the gross body is visible to him because he is now functioning on the physical Earth, or the fourth Globe -- and his body represents the Earth. We have a statement that these Globes are united in one mass, each interpenetrating the others, but differing from each other in substance, and, that this difference of substance is due to change of center of consciousness. To explain further: The whole seven "Globes" constitute one single mass or Great Globe, and they all interpenetrate each other. We have to say "Globe," because the ultimate shape is globular or spherical. In studying the diagrams used in the Secret Doctrine to illustrate the scheme, one has to pay close attention to the accompanying explanations and cautions given by H. P. Blavatsky. Both she and her Adept teachers say, that the seven globes of our chain are in "coadunition with each other but not in consubstantiality." [Secret Doctrine, Vol. I, p. 166, 200] This is further enforced by cautions not to rely on statistics, or plane surface diagrams, but to look at the metaphysical and spiritual aspect of the theory as stated in English. THE EARTH HAS REINCARNATED The Earth Chain of seven Globes as thus defined is the direct reincarnation of a former chain of seven Globes, and that former family of seven was the Moon chain, the moon itself being the visible representative of the fourth Globe of the old chain. When that former vast entity composed of the Moon and six others, all united in one mass, reached its limit of life, it died just as any being dies. Each one of the seven sent its energies into space and gave similar life or vibration to cosmic dust -- matter, -- and the total cohesive force of the whole kept the seven energies together. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I pp. 152-154, 171-181 ] This resulted in the evolving of the present Earth Chain of seven centers of energy or evolution combined in one mass. As the Moon was the fourth of the old series it is on the same plane of perception as the Earth, and as we are now confined in our consciousness largely to Earth, we are only able to see one of the old seven -- our Moon. When we are functioning on any of the other seven planes of consciousness, we will perceive the corresponding old corpse as a Moon. NUMBER OF EGOS INCARNATING IS FIXED The stream or mass of Egos which evolves on the seven Globes of our chain is limited in number, yet the actual quantity is enormous. For though the universe is limitless and infinite, yet in any particular portion of Cosmos in which manifestation and evolution have begun, there is a limit to the extent of manifestation and to the number of Egos engaged therein. EVOLUTION PASSING FROM GLOBE TO GLOBE The whole number of Monads now going through evolution on our Earth Chain came over from the old seven Globes which I have described. This mass of Egos has also been called a "life wave," meaning the stream of Monads. [ see SECRET DOCTRINE Vol. I pp 171-175 ] It reached this planetary mass, represented to our consciousness by our central point -- our Earth, and began on Globe A or No. I, coming like an army, or river. This journey went on for four circlings round the whole, and then the whole stream or army of Egos from the old Moon Chain had arrived, and being complete, no more entered after the middle of the Fourth Round. The same circling process of these differently arrived classes goes on for seven complete "Rounds" of the whole seven planetary centers of consciousness, and when the seven are ended as much perfection as is possible in the immense period occupied, will have been attained, and then this chain or mass of "Globes" will die in its turn to give birth to still another series. The Round is a circling of the seven centers [Globes] of planetary consciousness. [ S D I 200 ] PERFECTION AND THE END OF EVOLUTION Each one of the Globes is used by evolutionary law for the development of seven "Races," and of senses, faculties and powers appropriate to that state of matter. (the experience of the whole seven Globes being needed to make a perfect development in man's consciousness and character). Upon this earth and upon the whole chain of Globes of which it is a part seven races of men appeared simultaneously, their destiny is to slowly differentiate during the succeeding rounds until at the seventh round the seven first great races will be once more distinct, as perfect types of the human race as this period of evolution will allow. At the present time the seven races are mixed together, and representatives of all are in the many so-called races of men as classified by our present science. The object of this amalgamation and subsequent differentiation is to give to every race the benefit of the progress and power of the whole derived from prior progress in other planets and systems. For Nature never does her work in a hasty or undue fashion, but, by the sure method of mixture, precipitation, and separation, brings about the greatest perfection. But when the last, the seventh Race has appeared and fully perfected itself, in the 7th Round and the 7th Globe, a great dissolution comes on, similar to that which preceded the birth of the earth's chain. Then the world disappears as a tangible thing, and so far as the human ear is concerned there is silence. This, it is said, is the root of the belief so general, that the world will come to an end, that there will be a judgment-day, or that there have been in the past, universal floods, earthquakes, submergences of continents, or fires. Subsequent to that, which is our future, the whole mass is spiritualized with full consciousness and the entire body of globes raised up to a higher plane of development. [Extracted in part from the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY -- W Q Judge =================================== DTB ------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Terrie H N Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 9:58 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Big Bang? Hi, I think about the "big bang" sometimes AND the olde "life comes from life" in terms of thinking of the physics of a "big bang" as "the" birthing process of life/life sciences -ya know? Very interesting speculation, especially regarding the usual birth/process requirements known to be mostly firmly attached to the living we live, thusly stated: fertile/fertility, fertilization, development and labor - this, maybe, bodes an enormous amount of prior existence AND activity. So, I begin to wonder, does something come from something and/or nothing? And, along these lines, would dead/death really come before life -WELL- dead things do not truly seem to be producing life rather they seem, in part, to be resulting from the life processes themselves AND (very much it seems) life feeds on/births out of its dead/death -SO- it seems more likely to me that life is more truly 1st process/position AND further than that that dead/death is 2nd therefore c/wouldn't be 1st step prior, in the grand orchestration of life itself -OR- at least, at the moment, that's what I'm currently thinking/feeling. "Life comes from life." From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Mar 01 04:41:45 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 12:41:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 82667 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 12:41:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 12:41:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 12:41:44 -0000 Received: from pool0114.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.152.114] helo=earthlink) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gmM4-0001mA-00; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:41:44 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Inertia Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 04:34:51 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: <20020227205805.10398.qmail@web13407.mail.yahoo.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Dear Mic: Seems to me, for inertia to proceed, there has to always be an initial impulse, a cause. A process may continue indefinitely under the laws of inertia, providing there is absence of friction -- but your illustrations appear to invoke the presence of many more factors than are superficially apparent, or am I wrong ? As a matter of observation the decomposition of matter, seems always to provide "food< for further growth. Consider the facts of digestion in the human body, as an instance. How else do foods and water provide new structural bases for bodily maintenance and repair except through the innate intelligence of billions of disparate cells, and who or what guides or instituted that. Our of the apparent contamination of chyle new sustenance is continually extracted. All forces have cause and all trace back to an impulse starting on some plane other than the physical. This is what the astral, the pranic and the kamic divisions illustrate and imply. At least that is how I understand it. Best wishes, Dallas -----Original Message----- From: Mic Forster [mailto:micforster@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 12:58 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Inertia Would the following be regarded as a form of inertia? Litter on a forest floor decomposing at a certain rate relative to the aging of a human body. That is to say they are both in uniform motion though are moving at different rates. Though an external force can be applied to the human body to let it age and eventually decompose at the same rate as litter on a forest floor. Hence decomposition is just another word for aging and vice-versa. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Mar 01 04:47:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 12:47:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 19112 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 12:47:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 12:47:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 12:47:33 -0000 Received: from pool0004.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.4] helo=earthlink) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gmRZ-0006Le-00; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:47:26 -0800 To: Subject: RE: MASTERS -- H P B as Their AGENT Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 04:40:03 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020228004922.00a275f0@mail.gbronline.com> From: X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=52898573 Thursday, February 28, 2002 Re: Relation of H P B to the MASTERS OF WISDOM Dear Doss: Any one who has read the early Theosophical literature is well aware that it was the Masters of Wisdom who had sought for an "agent" to work on their behalf in this world of ours. From what is written H P B offered to act as their "agent' in the world. One of them she called her "Master." It plainly clear that H P B operated in close contact with Them and carried out Their instructions. I append hereto some references that ought to make this evident. ---------------------------------- The Master wrote Mr. A. P. Sinnett - Editor of the PIONEER Journal of Allahabad.: "...imperfect as may be our visible agent...yet, she [HPB] is the best available at present, and her phenomena have for about half a century astounded and baffled some of the cleverest minds of the age." M L 9-10 In 1888, Master wrote to Col. H S Olcott on board the steamer S S Shannon in th Mediterranean sea as he approached Brindisi, Italy "But we employ agents--the best available. Of these, for the past thirty years, the chief has been the personality known as H.P.B. to the world (but otherwise to us). Imperfect and very troublesome, no doubt, she proves to some; nevertheless, there is no likelihood of our finding a better one for years to come, and your theosophists should be made to understand it. Since 1885 I have not written, nor caused to be written save through her agency, direct or remote, a letter or line to anybody in Europe or America, nor communicated orally with, or thro' any third party. [ see M L, pp. 404-8 ] Theosophists should learn it. You will understand later the significance of this declaration, so keep it in mind. Her fidelity to our work being constant, and her sufferings having come upon her thro' it, nether I nor either of my Brother Associates will desert or supplant her...ingratitude is not among our vices. With yourself (Olcott) our relations are direct, and have been, with the rare exceptions you know of, like the present, on the psychical plane, and so will continue thro' force of circumstances. That they are so rare--is your own fault as I told you in my last. To help you in your present perplexity: H.. P. B. has next to no concern with administrative details, and should be kept clear of them, so far as her strong nature can be controlled. But this you must tell to all:--with occult matters she has everything to do. We have not abandoned her. She is not given over to chelas. She is our direct agent..." Letters From the Masters of Wisdom, Ist. Series, pp. 52-3 To Mr. Sinnett: "After nearly a century of fruitless search, our chiefs had to avail themselves of the only opportunity to send out a European body upon European soil to serve as a connecting link between that country and our own...my brother M. made to you through her a certain offer...you had but to accept it, and at any time you liked, you would have had for an hour or more, the real baitchooly to converse with, instead of the psychological cripple you generally have to deal with now." M L 203-4 "On the 17th of November next [1882] the septenary term of trial given the Society at its foundation in which to discreetly "preach us" will expire. One or two of us hoped that the world had so far advanced intellectually, if not intuitionally, that the Occult doctrine might gain an intellectual acceptance, and the impulse given for a new cycle of occult research...consent was given for the trial. It was stipulated, however, that the experiment should be made independently of our personal management; that there should be no abnormal interference by ourselves. So casting about we found in America the man to stand as leader--a man of great moral courage, unselfish, and having other good qualities. He was far from being the best, but...he was the best available. With him we associated a woman of most exceptional and wonderful endowments. Combined with them she had strong personal defects, but just as she was, there was no second to her living fit for this work. We sent her to America, brought them together--and the trial began. From the first both he and she were given to clearly understand that the issue lay entirely with themselves. And both offered themselves for the trial...For 6 1/2 years they have been struggling against such odds as would have driven off any one who was not working with the desperation of one who stakes life and all he prizes on some desperate supreme effort. Their success has not equaled the hopes of their original backers, phenomenal as it has been in certain directions. In a few more months the term of probation will end. If by that time the status of the Society as regards ourselves --the question of the "Brothers" be not definitely settled (either dropped out of the Society's programme or accepted on our own terms) that will be the last of the "Brothers" of all shapes and colors, sizes or degrees. We will subside out of public view like a vapour into the ocean. Only those who have proved faithful to themselves and to Truth through everything, will be allowed further intercourse with us..." M L 263-4 "You can never know her [HPB] as we do, therefore--none of you will ever be able to judge her impartially or correctly. You see the surface of things; and what you would term "virtue," holding but to appearances, we--judge but after having fathomed the object to its profoundest depth, and generally leave the appearances to take care of themselves. In your opinion H.P.B. is...a quaint, strange woman, a psychological riddle...We on the other hand, under the garb of eccentricity and folly--we find a profounder wisdom in her inner Self than you will ever find yourselves able to perceive...we...light daily upon traits of her inner nature the most delicate and refined, and which would cost an uninitiated psychologist years of constant and keen observation, and many an hour of close analysis and efforts to draw out of the depth of that most subtle of mysteries--human mind--and one of the most complicated machines,--H.P.B.'s mind--and thus learn to know her true inner Self." M L 314 Master wrote Mr. A O Hume: "I have been more than once suspected by you of taking my knowledge and impressions about you and other persons and things in the outside world from Olcott's and the O.L.'s heads. Kindly give thought to the following law...do you know that between adept and chela--Master and Pupil--there gradually forms a closer tie; for the psychic interchange is regulated scientifically...as the water in a full tank runs into an empty one...so does the knowledge of the adept flow to the chela; and the chela attains the adept-level according to his receptive capacities. At the same time the chela, being an individual, a separate evolution, unconsciously imparts to the Master the quality of his accumulated mentality. The Master absorbs his knowledge...So you see it is quite possible for me to catch H.P.B.'s or any other chela's ideas about you without meaning to do you any injustice; for whenever we find such ideas--unless trifling--we never proceed to judge and render our sentences merely on the testimony of such borrowed light; but always ascertain independently and for ourselves whether the ideas so reflected in us are right or wrong.' [ Letter to Hume ] Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, 1st Series., pp. 82-3 ----------------------------------------- [Note by DTB: Why should the master refer to HPB as a "chela" ? Like all human beings, "Mme. Blavatsky" was both a "personality," and an "INDIVIDUALITY" -- in other words, Mme. Blavatsky represented on this plane of daily affairs and materials the best "agent" possible for the Masters to employ because of her heredity, physical and psychic, in our "world." As in every incarnation by an "Adept," the physical personal psychological self has to undergo a period of training for the learning and practice of Occultism in that new form--so, to the Masters, the personality of Mme. Blavatsky was to them as a chela might be, but they also knew her to be, as an EGO, an Adept of the same Brotherhood as they were. [see explanations given on this in SD II 167, 246, 243.] The ENTITY named sometimes: "H.P.B." is quite evidently something different -- see the 1893 Lahiri letter for an explanation circulated 2 years after her "death" as a physical personality. [ see also HPB to APS, p. 174 bottom. ] Unless this duality is understood (see for explanation what HPB writes in Transactions of the Blavatsky Lodge, ULT Edn. pp. 66-76, on the relations of the real EGO, to the embodied "personal ego." Most people are not able to conceive of, or understand this psychological dichotomy, although it is also within them. How is it possible for the human mind to hold a dialog with itself, on morals, metaphysics, or any other subject, unless there is an "inner Resident" to whom the universality of Law, and of experience and knowledge, is accessible? Add to this the curious statements also made in the S D regarding the "undying race" -- SD II 275fn, 281, 652; I 619 and the puzzle begins to get resolved, or deepens for some. -- DTB ) ------------------------------------ On the subject of a Mahatma becoming active in our world: "since the MAHATMA is but an advanced occultist, who has so far controlled his lower "self" as to hold it more or less in complete subjection to the Cosmic impulse, it is in the nature of things impossible for him to act in any other but an unselfish manner. No sooner does he allow his "personal self" to assert itself, than he ceases to be a MAHATMA...The law of Cosmic evolution is ever operating to achieve its purpose of ultimate unity and to carry the phenomenal into the noumenal plane, and the MAHATMAS, being en rapport with it, are assisting that purpose...they alone have got to the basic knowledge which can determine the right course and exercise proper discrimination. And for us...it will be evident that, as soon as the least feeling of selfishness tries to assert itself, the vision of the spiritual sense, which is the only perception of the MAHATMA, becomes clouded and he looses the "power" which abstract "knowledge" alone can confer. Hence the vigilant watch of the "will" we have constantly to exercise to prevent our lower nature from coming up to the surface..." Theos. Movement, Bombay, Vol, X pp. 138-9 "A perfect man is not made to order but is a product of evolution. Wisdom is not a matter of book-learning but of growth. General rules for conduct can be given, but to apply them properly, the power of discrimination is necessary...A virtue, practiced without moderation, becomes a crime. To know how to find the point of equilibrium is the great secret of the Adept, that cannot be told but must be learned by experience, when sagacity and goodness will be united in wisdom." HPB -- THEOSOPHIST , 1885 Reprinted in: THEOSOPHY, Los Angeles, Vol.. 47, pp, 441-2 ------------------------------------- HPB ON HER RELATIONS WITH THE MASTERS [In the monthly magazine The PATH, Volumes 9 and 10, published by Mr. W.Q.Judge in New York, we find a series are reprinted there. In 1894 some of those letters from HPB to her family and friends were published in excerpt form, beginning Vol. 9 --1894-5-- pp. 265,297, 379, 411; and, Vol 10 (1895-6), pp. 6, 33, 73, 105, 139, 169, 203, 235, 267, 297, 332, 366. Some extracts are given below: "...when I again laid down...I soon fell asleep and then got surrounded with a heavy, impenetrable darkness. Then I saw a star appearing; it lit up high, high above me, and then fell, dropping straight upon me. It fell straight on my forehead and got transformed into a hand. Whilst this hand was resting on my forehead I was all ablaze to know whose hand it was...I was concentrated into a single prayer, into an impulse of the will, to learn who it was, to whom did this luminous hand belong... And I have learned it: there stood over it Myself. Suddenly this second me spoke to my body, "Look at me!" My body looked at it and saw that half of this second me was as black as jet, the other half whitish-grey, and only the top of the head perfectly white, brilliant, and luminous. And again I Myself spoke to my body: "When you become as bright as this small part of your head, you will be able to see what is seen by others, by the purified who have washed themselves clean...And meanwhile make yourself clean, make yourself clean, make yourself clean. And here I awoke." Path Vol. 9, p. 269 "He [the "Sahib" -- Mahatma] has cured me entirely [of a gangrenous leg]. And just about this time I have begun to feel a very strange duality. Several times a day I feel that besides me there is someone else, quite separable from me, present in my body. I never lose the consciousness of my own personality; what I feel is as if I were keeping silent and the other one--the lodger who is in me--were speaking with my tongue...let my fate conduct me at its own sweet will...it would be perfectly ridiculous if I were to deny the possession of knowledge avowed by my No. 2, giving occasion to people around me to imagine that I keep them in the dark for modesty's sake. In the night, when I am alone in my bed, the whole life of my No. 2 passes before my eyes, and I do not see myself at all, but quite a different person--different in race and different in feelings...I try to throw myself into the part and to forget the strangeness of my situation. This is no mediumship, and by no means an impure power; for that, it has too strong an ascendancy over us all, leading us into better ways. No devil would act like that. 'Spirits,' maybe ? ... It is enough for me to enter the room where a seance is being held to stop all kinds of phenomena at once, especially materializations. But phenomena of another sort take place more and more frequently under the direction of my No. 2. (*) Footnote: These phenomena were those amazing feats of magic, hundreds of which I witnessed in broad daylight or blazing gas-light, from 1872 to 1878--WQJ. ]" Path, Vol. 9, pp. 269-70 [ see also WQJ --"Conversations on Occultism with HPB" ] "I see this Hindu [Mahatma] every day, just as I might see any other living person, with the only difference that he looks to me more ethereal and more transparent. Formerly I kept silent about these appearances, thinking that they were hallucinations. But now they have become visible to other people as well. He (the Hindu) appears and advises me as to our conduct and our writing. he evidently knows everything that is going on, even to the thoughts of other people, and makes me express his knowledge. Sometimes it seems to me that he overshadows the whole of me, simply entering me like a kind of volatile essence penetrating all my pores and dissolving in me. Then we two are able to speak to other people, and then I begin to understand and remember sciences and languages--everything he instructs me in, even when he is not with me any more." Path Vol. 9, p. 297 "It seems strange to you that some Hindu Sahib is so free and easy in his dealings with me...here is something about which I am perfectly certain: Admit that man's soul--his real living soul--is a thing perfectly separate from the rest of his organism; that this perisprit is not stuck with paste to the physical "innerds;" and that this soul which exists in everything living, beginning with an infusoria and ending with an elephant, is different from its physical double, only as being more or less overshadowed by the immortal spirit, it is capable of acting freely and independently. In the case of the uninitiated profane, it acts during their sleep; in the case of an initiated adept, it acts at any moment he chooses according to his will. Just try and assimilate this, and then many things will become clear to you... What mediums accomplish unconsciously, under the influence of outside powers which take possession of them, can be accomplished by Adepts consciously at their own volition. That's all... As to the Sahib, I have known him a long time. Twenty-five years ago he came to London with the prince of Nepaul; three years ago he sent me a letter...In this letter he reminded me of many things, foretold by him at the time, and asked me whether I believed him now and whether I would consent to obey him...After this he appeared repeatedly, not only to me but also to other people, and to Olcott whom he ordered to be President of the Society, teaching him how to start it. I always recognize and know the Master, and often talk to him without seeing him. How is it that he hears me from everywhere, and that I also hear his voice across seas and oceans twenty times a day? I do not know, but it is so. Whether it is he personally that enters me I really cannot say with confidence; if it is not he, it is his power, his influence. Through him I am strong; without him, I am a mere nothing." Path, Vol. 9, pp. 298-9 H P B wrote to Dr. Franz Hartmann, who had spent time in Adyar: "I never gave myself out for a full-blown occultist, but only for a student of Occultism for the last thirty or forty years. Yet I am enough of an occultist to know that before we find the Master within our own hearts and seventh principle--we need an outside Master...I got my drop from my Master (the living one)...He is a Saviour, he who leads you to finding the Master within yourself. It is ten years already that I preach the inner Master and God and never represented our Masters as Saviours in the Christian sense." [ HPB to Dr. Hartmann ] Path, X, p. 367 "...as I venerate the Master, and worship MY MASTER--the sole creator of my inner Self which but for His calling it out, awakening it from its slumber, would never have come to conscious being--not in this life, at all events..." HPB to APS p. 104 "Well, Vera, [H P B's sister] whether you believe me or not, something miraculous is happening to me. You cannot imagine in what a charmed world of pictures and visions I live. I am writing Isis; not writing, rather copying out and drawing that which She personally shows to me...sometimes it seems to me that the ancient Goddess of beauty in person leads me through all the countries of the past centuries which I have to describe. I sit with my eyes open and to all appearances see and hear everything real and actual around me, and yet at the same time I see and hear that which I write...Slowly century after century, image after image, float out of the distance and pass before me as if in a magic panorama; and meanwhile I put them together in my mind, fitting the epochs and dates, and know for sure that there can be no mistake. Races and nations, countries and cities, which have for long disappeared in the darkness of the prehistoric past, emerge and then vanish, giving place to others; and then I am told the consecutive dates. Hoary antiquity makes way for historical periods; myths are explained to me with events and people who have really existed, and every event which is at all remarkable, every newly-turned page of this many-colored book of life, impresses itself on my brain with photographic exactitude. My own reckonings and calculations appear to me later on as separate colored pieces of different shapes in the game which is called casse-tete (puzzles). I gather them together and try to match them one after the other, and at the end there always comes out a geometrical whole...Most assuredly it is not I who do it all, but my Ego, the highest principle which lives in me. And even this with the help of my Guru and teacher who helps me in everything. If I happen to forget something I have just to address him, or another of the same kind, in my thought, and what I have forgotten rises once more before my eyes--sometimes whole tables of numbers passing before me, long inventories of events. They remember everything. They know everything. Without them, from whence could I gather my knowledge ?" Path Vol. 9, pp 300-1 H P B ON HERSELF "...either I have invented the Masters, their philosophy, written their letters, etc. or, I have not. If I have and the Masters do not exist, then their handwritings, could not have existed, either: I have invented them also; and if I have--how can I be called a "forger ?" They are my handwritings and I have a right to use them if I am so clever. As for philosophy and doctrine invented, the S.D. shall show. Now I am here alone with the Countess for witness. I have no books no one to help me. And I tell you that the Secret Doctrine will be 20 times as learned, philosophical and better than Isis which will be killed by it. Now there are hundreds of things I am permitted to say and explain...The whole Doctrine is shown the mother stone the foundation of all the religions including Xty, and on the strength of exoteric published Hindu books, with their symbols explained esoterically." M L, pp. 480-1 [ H.P.Blavatsky wrote to Mr. A P Sinnett : "There is a limit to endurance, there is one to the greatest self-sacrifice. I have worked for them faithfully and unselfishly for years, and the result was, that I ruined my health, dishonored my ancestral name, got reviled [by everyone]...My time is also fast approaching when, my hour of triumph will strike. Then is it, that I also, may prove to those who speculated about me, those who believed as those who disbelieved that none of them approached within 100 miles of the area of truth. I have suffered hell on earth, but before I leave it, I promise myself such a triumph... Now, do you really think that you know ME my dear Mr. Sinnett? Do you believe that, because you have fathomed--as you think--my physical crust and brain; that shrewd analyst of human nature though you be--you have ever penetrated even beneath the fist cuticles of my Real Self ? You would gravely err, if you did. I am held by all of you as untruthful because hitherto I have shown the world only the true exterior Mme. Blavatsky...It is not boasting for I do not say whether inside that unprepossessing rock there is a palatial residence or an humble hut. What I say is this: you do not know me; for whatever there is inside it, is not what you think it is; and--to judge of me therefore, as of one untruthful is the greatest mistake in the world besides being a flagrant injustice. I, (the inner real "I") am in prison and cannot show myself as I am with all the desire I may have to. Why then, should I, because speaking for myself as I am and feel myself to be, why should I be held responsible for the outward jail-door and its appearance, when I have neither built nor yet decorated it ? [ see TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE, p. 66-77 ] But all this will be for you no better than vexation of spirit. "The poor old lady is crazy again--" will you remark. And let me prophecy that the day will come when you will accuse K H too of having deceived you; for only failing to tell you what he has no right to tell anyone." M L, pp. 465-6 [From the Preface to the SECRET DOCTRINE, 1888 ] "The Author--the writer, rather...These truths are in no sense put forward as a revelation...what is contained in this work is to be found scattered through thousands of volumes embodying the scriptures of the great Asiatic and early European religions...to gather the oldest tenets together and to make of them one harmonious and unbroken whole. The sole advantage which the writer has over her predecessors is that she need not resort to personal speculations and theories. for this work is a partial statement of what she herself has been taught by more advanced students, supplemented, in a few details by the results of her own study and observation... this book is not the Secret Doctrine in its entirety...The writer, therefore, is fully prepared to take all the responsibility for what is contained in this work...its logical coherency and consistency entitle this new Genesis to rank...on a level with the "working hypotheses" so freely accepted by modern science...It is written in the service of humanity, and by humanity and the future generations it must be judged. Its author recognizes no inferior court of appeal..." - HPB - Preface to the SECRET DOCTRINE I , pp vii-viii Masters on The SECRET DOCTRINE "I have also noted your thoughts about the "Secret Doctrine." Be assured that what she has not annotated from scientific and other works, we have given or suggested to her. Every mistake or erroneous notion, corrected and explained by her from works of other theosophists was corrected by me, or under my instruction. It is a more valuable work than its predecessor [ISIS UNVEILED], an epitome of occult truths that will make it a source of information and instruction for the earnest student for long years to come." Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, 1st Series, p. 54. THE "MASTER" WITHIN "Every human being contains within himself vast potentialities, and it is the duty of adepts to surround the would-be chela with circumstances which shall enable him to take the "right-hand path," if he have the ability in him...until he has passed that period [of probation] we leave him to fight out his battles as best he may; and have to do so occasionally with higher and initiated chelas such as H.P.B., once that they are allowed to work in the world, that all of us more or less avoid...We were all so tested; and while Moorad Ali--failed--I, succeeded. The victor's crown is only for him who proves himself worthy to wear it; for him who attacks Mara single handed and conquers the demon of lust and earthly passions; and not we but he himself puts it on his brow...there is no such other difficult struggle. If it were not so, adeptship would be but a cheap acquirement." M L 318 "The whole individuality is centred in the three middle Principles or third (MANAS), and fifth (ASTRAL BODY) principles. During earthly life it is all in the fourth (KAMA-MANAS), the center of energy, volition--will...the individuality survives... to run its seven-fold and upward course [ it ] has to assimilate to itself the eternal-life power residing but in the seventh (ATMA), and then blend the three (4th, 5th & 7th) into one--the 6th (BUDDHI). Those who succeed in doing so become Buddhas, Dhyan Chohans, etc... The chief object of our struggle and initiations is to achieve this union while yet on this earth." M L, 77-8 [ Note: To explain this, HPB devotes over 100 pages in The Key. See 3 tables pp. 91-2, 135-6, 175-6. -- DTB ] "Happy the man physically pure, for his external soul (astral body, the image of the body) is pure, it will strengthen the second (the lower Manas), or the soul which is termed by him the higher mortal soul, which, though liable to err from its own motives, will always side with the reason against the animal proclivities of the body. In other words, the ray of our Higher Ego, the lower Manas, has its higher light, the reason or rational powers of the Nous, to help it in the struggle with Kamic desires." HPB Articles I, pp. 27-8 -------------------------------- I hope this clarifies some of the facts history records. There are those who discard from their consideration anything that does not suit their pre-judgment. But that prejudice ought not masquerade under the guise of an assumed scholarly of critical inquiry, plainly supported by prejudiced skepticism. These, do not abolish the fact of that which was said and written, and, both of those, are supported by many who testified to their accuracy. I find it strange, inexplicable in fact, that those who presume to call into question the history have not familiarized themselves with Theosophy as doctrine philosophy. They lame, and blind themselves in doing that, because no one can consider the superficies of history unless they have a perception of its causes. >From a reading of their offerings, they appear arrogant and ignorant of the purpose of Theosophy. They have greatly handicapped themselves by ignoring its basic ethico-moral aspects. Many have not read or studied the material offered in the book: ISIS UNVEILED, and the magazine articles by H P B published in THEOSOPHIST, LUCIFER, the PATH, and, finally, the book: The SECRET DOCTRINE. Consequently, their statements lack perception of dimension -- breadth and depth. I would say: they do not satisfy the primary requirements of true and unbiased scholarly review and critical inquiry. In preparing for a study one ought to have at least a newcomer's knowledge of the subject being questioned. I find this lacking in many cases. It degrades the plausibility of the critic and augments the arrogance of the questioner. A little intensive study would make a difference. I hope the extracts will fill in some gaps, and give pointers as to where to find facts. Best wishes, Dallas =================================== -----Original Message----- From: MKR Sent: February 27, 2002 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World No evidence for Daniel Caldwell's claim. >"H.P.Blavatsky in reality was the "teacher " of "K.H." and of "Morya." B_M > =================================== MKR: Is it not the other way around? CUT From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Mar 01 05:56:34 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 13:56:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 47751 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 13:56:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 13:56:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n7.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.57) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 13:56:33 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.159] by n7.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2002 13:56:32 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:56:28 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brigitte on Blavatsky's Materializations Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1461 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "danielhcaldwell" X-Originating-IP: 169.197.8.244 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brigitte, I asked you about the two cases brought up by Steve Stubbs at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UniversalSeekers/message/2956 I asked if these two cases (cup/saucer and letter incidents) BAFFLED you like they do Steve? You did not directly answer. I therefore assume that your answer which reads: ""I do believe that her [Blavatsky's] materializations of letters and other objects where fraudulent. . . ." means that you are NOT baffled by these two cases and can easily explain them away as "fraudulent". But the fact remains that both Steve Stubbs and I are baffled by these two cases and I can speak for myself that I consider these two cases as giving support to the assertion that Blavatsky materialized objects. Please share with us your "differing" thinking and reasoning on these two cases. I'm sure both Stubbs and I will find your reasons quite interesting. Finally, what KIND of evidence would convince you that Blavatsky materialized objects? Maybe I can find it for you! :) Or are you saying that there is not ANY historical evidence from Blavatsky's time that would convince you that she materialized objects? Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Mar 01 06:10:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 14:10:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 35465 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 14:10:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 14:10:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pegasus.imagiware.com) (64.49.222.14) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 14:10:28 -0000 Received: from web14203.mail.yahoo.com (web14203.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.145]) by pegasus.imagiware.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4207F49BA for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:08:00 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <20020301140759.46908.qmail@web14203.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [169.197.8.244] by web14203.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 06:07:59 PST Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:07:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Materialization Incident that Baffles Steve Stubbs To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Daniel Caldwell X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Testimony of Rudolph Gebhard, August. 25–26, 1884, Elberfeld, Germany I have always taken a great interest in conjuring tricks. When in London, I had an opportunity of taking lessons from Professor Field, a most skillful sleight-of-hand conjuror, who very soon made me quite proficient in his art. From that time forward I have given performances wherever I went (as an amateur, of course), and made the acquaintance of nearly all our renowned "wizards," with whom I exchanged tricks. As every conjuror has some favorite sleight in which he excels, I was bound to be very careful in watching them, in order to make myself perfect in all the different lines of card or coin conjuring, or the famous mediumistic feats. This of course made me in good time a pretty close observer, as far as tricks are concerned; and I feel justified in giving here an opinion on the phenomena which came under my observation. Two of them occurred in our house in Elberfeld, during the stay in it of Mme. Blavatsky, Colonel Olcott, and a small party of friends and Theosophists. The first one was a letter from Mahatma K.H. to my father, and took place one evening in the presence of a number of witnesses. It was about nine pm. We were sitting in the drawing room discussing different topics, when Mme. Blavatsky’s attention was suddenly attracted by something unusual taking place in the room. After a while she said that she felt the presence of the "Masters." That they had, perhaps, the intention of doing something for us, and so she asked us to think of what we should like to occur. Then a little discussion took place as to what would be the best thing, and finally it was unanimously resolved that a letter should be asked for, addressed to my father, Mr. G. Gebhard, on a subject on which he should mentally decide himself. Now my father had, at the time being, great anxiety about a son in America, my elder brother, and was very eager to get advice from the Master concerning him. Meanwhile, Mme. B., who, on account of her recent illness, was resting on a sofa, and had been looking around the room, suddenly exclaimed that there was something going on with a large oil painting hanging over the piano in the same room, she having seen like a ray of light shooting in the direction of the picture. This statement was immediately corroborated by Mrs. [Holloway], and then by my mother also, who, sitting opposite a looking glass and turning her back to the picture, had also observed in the mirror, like a faint light going towards the painting. Mme. B. then required Mrs. [Holloway] to see, and say what was going on, when Mrs. [Holloway] said that she saw something forming over the picture, but could not distinctly make out what it was. Everybody's attention was now fixed in the direction of the wall high above and under the ceiling, where so many saw bright lights. But, I must confess, that for my part, not being clairvoyant, I could neither see lights, nor any other thing except what I had always seen on that wall. And when Madame Blavatsky said she now felt absolutely sure that there was something going on, I got up (we had kept our seats all this while) and climbing on the piano lifted the picture right off the wall, but not off the hook, shook it well and looked behind it—nothing! The room was well lit up, and there was not an inch of the picture which I could not see. I dropped the frame, saying that I could see nothing; but Madame Blavatsky told me that she felt sure that there must be something, so on I climbed once more and tried again. The picture in question was a large oil painting, suspended from the wall by a hook and a rope, which made it hang over at the top, so that when the lower part of the frame was lifted off the wall, there was a space of fully six inches between the wall and the back of the picture, the latter being virtually entirely off the wall. There being a wall gas bracket fixed on each side of the painting, the space between the latter and the wall was well lit up. But the second time, no better than the first, was I able to detect anything, though I looked very close. It was in order to make perfectly sure that I got up on the piano, and passed my hand twice very carefully along the frame, which is about three inches thick, up and down—nothing. Letting the picture drop back, I then turned round to Madame Blavatsky to ask her what was to be done further, when she exclaimed, "I see the letter; there it is!" I turned quickly back to the picture, and saw at that moment a letter dropping from behind it on the piano. I picked it up. It was addressed to "Herr Consul G. Gebhard," and contained the information he had just asked for. I must have made rather a perplexed face, for the company laughed merrily at the "family juggler." Now for me this is a most completely demonstrated phenomenon. Nobody had handled the picture but myself; I was careful to examine it very closely, and as I was searching for a letter, such a thing could not have escaped my attention, as perhaps would have been the case if I had been looking for some other object; as then I might not have paid any attention to a slip of paper. The letter was fully four by two inches, so by no means a small object. Let us consider this phenomenon from a sleight-of-hand point of view. Suppose several letters had been prepared beforehand, addressed to different persons, treating of different subjects. Is it possible to get a letter to an appointed place by a sleight-of-hand trick? Quite possible; it only depends what place it is, and if our attention is drawn beforehand to such a place or not. To get that letter behind that picture would have been very difficult, but might have been managed if our attention had for a moment been directed to another place, the letter being thrown behind the picture in the meantime. What is sleight-of-hand? Nothing else but the execution of a movement more or less swift, in a moment when you are not observed. I draw your attention for a short while to a certain spot, say for instance my left hand, my right is then free to make certain movements unobserved; as to "the quickness of the hand deceives the eye" theory, it is entirely erroneous. You cannot make a movement with your hand so quickly that the eye would not follow and detect it; the only thing you can do is either to conceal the necessary movement by another one which has nothing to do with what you are about, or to draw the attention of the looker-on to another point, and then quickly do what is required. Now, in this instance all our attention had been drawn to the picture, before ever the question was put as to what we should like to have, and was kept there all the while; it would have been impossible for anyone to throw a letter without being observed. As for the letter having been concealed behind the picture beforehand, this is out of the question altogether, it could not have escaped my attention while I repeatedly searched for it. Suppose the letter had been placed on the top of the frame, and my hand had disturbed it passing along without my knowing it, this would have caused the letter to drop down instantly, whereas, about thirty seconds passed before it put in an appearance. Taking all circumstances together, it seems to me an impossibility to have worked this phenomenon by a trick. The day after this had occurred, I went into Madame’s room about noon; but seeing that she was engaged I retired to the drawing room, where we had been sitting the night before, and just then the idea struck me to try that picture again, in order to make perfectly sure that the letter could not have been concealed somewhere behind it, without being detected. I was alone in the room, and during my examination of the painting, nobody entered it; I fully satisfied myself that a letter could not have escaped my attention, had it been concealed behind the picture. I then went back to Madame’s room, where I found her still engaged with the same woman. In the evening we were again sitting together. "The Masters watched you today, and were highly amused with your experiments. How you did try to find out if that letter could not have been concealed behind the picture." Now I am positively certain, first, that nobody was in the room at the time I tried the picture; and secondly, that I had told no one in the house of my experiment. It is impossible for me to explain how Madame could have found out my movements, except through clairvoyance. Quoted from: Sinnett, A. P. Incidents in the Life of Madame Blavatsky, Compiled from Information Supplied by her Relatives and Friends. London: George Redway, 1886. Reprint New York: Ayer, 1976, pp. 279–286. [Note: The above extracts have been transcribed from the original source but material not relevant to the subject has been silently deleted. The original texts, however, can be found from the bibliographical reference. Explanatory words added by the editor are enclosed within brackets.] ===== Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Mar 01 06:18:18 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 14:18:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 75677 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 14:18:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 14:18:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pegasus.imagiware.com) (64.49.222.14) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 14:18:17 -0000 Received: from web14207.mail.yahoo.com (web14207.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.71]) by pegasus.imagiware.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 15AF64974 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:15:30 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <20020301141529.42518.qmail@web14207.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [169.197.8.244] by web14207.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 06:15:29 PST Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:15:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cup & Saucer Materialization that Baffles Steve Stubbs To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Daniel Caldwell X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Testimony of A. P. Sinnett, October 3, 1880, Simla, India We set out at the appointed time next morning. We were originally to have been a party of six, but a seventh person joined us just before we started. After going down the hill for some hours a place was chosen in the wood near the upper waterfall for our breakfast: the baskets that had been brought with us were unpacked, and the servants at a little distance lighted a fire and set to work to make tea and coffee. Concerning this some joking arose over the fact that we had one cup and saucer too few, on account of the seventh person who joined us at starting, and some one laughingly asked Madame Blavatsky to create another cup and saucer. When Madame Blavatsky said it would be very difficult, but that if we liked she would try, attention was of course at once arrested. Madame Blavatsky, as usual, held mental conversation with one of the Brothers, and then wandered a little about in the immediate neighborhood of where we were sitting—that is to say, within a radius of half a dozen to a dozen yards from our picnic cloth—I closely following, waiting to see what would happen. Then she marked a spot on the ground, and called to one of the gentlemen of the party to bring a knife to dig with. The place chosen was the edge of a little slope covered with thick weeds and grass and shrubby undergrowth. The gentleman with the knife [Major Philip Henderson] tore up these in the first place with some difficulty, as the roots were tough and closely interlaced. Cutting then into the matted roots and earth with the knife, and pulling away the debris with his hands, he came at last, on the edge of something white, which turned out, as it was completely excavated, to be the required cup. A corresponding saucer was also found after a little more digging. Both objects were in among the roots, which spread everywhere through the ground, so that it seemed as if the roots were growing round them. The cup and saucer both corresponded exactly, as regards their pattern, with those that had been brought to the picnic, and constituted a seventh cup and saucer when brought back to where we were to have breakfast. Afterwards, when we got home, my wife questioned our principal khitmutgar as to how many cups and saucers of that particular kind we possessed. In the progress of years, as the set was an old set, some had been broken, but the man at once said that nine teacups were left. When collected and counted that number was found to be right, without reckoning the excavated cup. That made ten, and as regards the pattern, it was one of a somewhat peculiar kind, bought a good many years previously in London, and which assuredly could never have been matched in Simla. If the phenomenon was not what it appeared to be—a most wonderful display of a power of which the modern scientific world has no comprehension whatever—it was, of course, an elaborate fraud. That supposition will only bear to be talked of vaguely. The cup and saucer were assuredly dug up in the way I describe. If they were not deposited there by occult agency, they must have been buried there beforehand. Now, I have described the character of the ground from which they were dug up; assuredly that had been undisturbed for years by the character of the vegetation upon it. But it may be urged that from some other part of the sloping ground a sort of tunnel may have been excavated in the first instance through which the cup and saucer could have been thrust into the place where they were found. If the tunnel had been big enough for the purpose, it would have left traces, which were not perceptible on the ground—which were not even discoverable when the ground was searched shortly afterwards with a view to that hypothesis. But the truth is that the theory of previous burial is untenable in view of the fact that the demand for the cup and saucer—of all the myriad things that might have been asked for—could never have been foreseen. It arose out of circumstances themselves the sport of the moment. If no extra person had joined us at the last moment, the number of cups and saucers packed up by the servants would have been sufficient for our needs, and no attention would have been drawn to them. It was by the servants, without the knowledge of any guest, that the cups taken were chosen from others that might just as easily have been taken. Had the burial fraud been really perpetrated, it would have been necessary to constrain us to choose the exact spot we did actually choose for the picnic with a view to the previous preparations, but the exact spot on which the ladies’ jampans were deposited was chosen by myself in concert with [Mr. Henderson], and it was within a few yards of this spot that the cup was found. Thus who could be the agents employed to deposit the cup and saucer in the ground, and when did they perform the operation? Madame Blavatsky was under our roof the whole time from the previous evening, when the picnic was determined on, to the moment of starting. The one personal servant she had with her, a Bombay boy and a perfect stranger to Simla, was constantly about the house the previous evening, and from the first awakening of the household in the morning. Colonel Olcott, also a guest of ours at the time, was certainly with us all evening and was also present at the start. To imagine that he spent the night in going four or five miles through forest paths difficult to find, to bury a cup and saucer of a kind that we were not likely to take, in a place we were not likely to go to, in order that in the exceedingly remote contingency of its being required for the perpetration of a hoax it might be there, would certainly be a somewhat extravagant conjecture. Another consideration—the destination for which we were making can be approached by two roads from opposite ends of the upper horseshoe of hills on which Simla stands. It was open to us to select either path, and certainly neither Madame Blavatsky nor Colonel Olcott had any share in the selection of that actually taken. Had we taken the other, we should never have come to the spot where we actually picnicked. [Mr. Henderson] had been a good deal with us during the week or two that had already elapsed since Madame Blavatsky’s arrival. Like many of our friends, he had been greatly impressed with much he had seen in her presence. He had especially come to the conclusion that the Theosophical Society was exerting a good influence with the natives. He had declared his intention of joining this Society as I had done myself. Now, when the cup and saucer were found most of us who were present, [Mr. Henderson] among the number, were greatly impressed, and in the conversation that ensued the idea arose that [Mr. Henderson] might formally become a member of the Society then and there. The proposal that [Mr. Henderson] should then and there formally join the Society was one with which he was quite ready to fall in. But some documents were required—a formal diploma, the gift of which to a new member should follow his initiation into certain little Masonic forms of recognition adopted in the Society. How could we get a diploma? Of course for the group then present a difficulty of this sort was merely another opportunity for the exercise of Madame’s powers. Could she get a diploma brought to us by "magic"? After an occult conversation with the Brother who had then interested himself in our proceedings, Madame told us that the diploma would be forthcoming. She described the appearance it would present—a roll of paper wound round with an immense quantity of string, and then bound up in the leaves of a creeping plant. We should find it about in the wood where we were, and we could all look for it, but it would be [Mr. Henderson], for whom it was intended, who would find it. Thus it fell out. We all searched about in the undergrowth or in the trees, wherever fancy prompted us to look, and it was [Henderson] who found the roll, done up as described. We had had our breakfast by this time. [Mr. Henderson] was formally "initiated" a member of the society by Colonel Olcott, and after a time we shifted our quarters to a lower place in the wood where there was the little Tibetan temple, or rest house. We amused ourselves by examining the little building inside and out, "bathing in the good magnetism," as Madame Blavatsky expressed it, and then, lying on the grass outside, it occurred to someone that we wanted more coffee. The servants were told to prepare some, but they had used up all our water. The water to be found in the streams near Simla is not of a kind to be used for purposes of this sort, and for a picnic, clean filtered water is always taken out in bottles. It appears that all the bottles in our baskets had been exhausted. This report was promptly verified by the servants by the exhibition of the empty bottles. The only thing to be done was to send to a brewery, the nearest building, about a mile off, and ask for water. I wrote a pencil note and a coolie went off with the empty bottles. Time passed, and the coolie returned, to our great disgust, without the water. There had been no European left at the brewery that day (it was a Sunday) to receive the note, and the coolie had stupidly plodded back with the empty bottles under his arm, instead of asking about and finding someone able to supply the required water. At this time our party was a little dispersed. [Mr. Henderson] and one of the other gentlemen had wandered off. No one of the remainder of the party was expecting fresh phenomena, when Madame suddenly got up, went over to the baskets, a dozen or twenty yards off, picked out a bottle—one of those, I believe, which had been brought back by the coolie empty—and came back to us holding it under the fold of her dress. Laughingly producing it, it was found to be full of water. Just like a conjuring trick, will someone say? Just like, except for the conditions. For such a conjuring trick, the conjurer defines the thing to be done. In our case the want of water was as unforeseeable in the first instance as the want of the cup and saucer. The accident that left the brewery deserted by its Europeans, and the further accident that the coolie sent up for water should have been so stupid to come back without, because there happened to be no European to take my note, were accidents but for which the opportunity for obtaining the water by occult agency could not have arisen. And those accidents supervened on the fundamental accident, improbable in itself, that our servants should have sent us out insufficiently supplied. That any bottle of water could have been left unnoticed at the bottom of the baskets is a suggestion that I can hardly imagine any one present putting forward, for the servants had been found at fault with for not bringing enough; they had just before had the baskets completely emptied out, and we had not submitted to the situation till we had been fully satisfied that there really was no more water left. Furthermore, I tasted the water in the bottle Madame Blavatsky produced, and it was not water of the same kind as that which came from our own filters. It was an earthy-tasting water, unlike that of the modern Simla supply, but equally unlike, I may add, though in a different way, the offensive and discolored water of the only stream flowing through those woods. How was it brought? The fact is there whether we can explain it or not. The rough, popular saying that you cannot argue the hind leg off a cow, embodies a sound reflection, which our prudent skeptics in matters of the kind with which I am now dealing are too apt to overlook. You cannot argue away a fact by contending that by the light in your mind it ought to be something different from what it is. Still less can you argue away a mass of facts like those I am now recording by a series of extravagant and contradictory hypotheses about each in turn. What the determined disbeliever so often overlooks is that the skepticism which may show an acuteness of mind up to a certain point, reveals a deficient intelligence when adhered to in face of certain kinds of evidence. [Mr. Henderson], I should add here, afterwards changed his mind about the satisfactory character of the cup phenomenon, and said he thought it vitiated as a scientific proof by the interposition of the theory that the cup and saucer might have been thrust up into their places by means of a tunnel cut from a lower part of the bank. I have discussed that hypothesis already, and mention the fact of [Mr. Henderson’s] change of opinion, which does not affect any of the circumstances I have narrated, merely to avoid the chance that readers might think I was treating the change of opinion in question as something which it was worth while to disguise. Quoted from: Sinnett, A. P. The Occult World. London: Trubner & Co., 1881, pp. 66–84. [Note: The above extracts have been transcribed from the original source but material not relevant to the subject has been silently deleted. The original texts, however, can be found from the bibliographical reference. Explanatory words added by the editor are enclosed within brackets.] ===== Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com From stevestubbs@yahoo.com Fri Mar 01 06:32:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: stevestubbs@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 14:32:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 25127 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 14:32:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 14:32:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web21405.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.232.75) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 14:32:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20020301143225.68345.qmail@web21405.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [67.203.104.185] by web21405.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 06:32:25 PST Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:32:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Theos-World The origine of the Central Sun. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Steve Stubbs X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=7712190 X-Yahoo-Profile: stevestubbs The ancient Hindus were sun worshippers. The phrae "spiritual sun" refers to the deity who presumably resided within that body. --- bri_mue wrote: > MNS: "I agree. It goes back as early as the Vedas, > the oldest religious > texts known to mankind." > > I have sort of the forerunner of the alchemical > Gold seen mentioning in > the Vedas, but the term "Central Sun" ? Where, which > authentic verses ? > > > Bri. > > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "redrosarian" > wrote: > > --- In theos-talk@y..., Larry F Kolts > wrote: > > > The idea of a "central sun" certainly did not > originate with > > > Randolph in 1856. > > > > I agree. It goes back as early as the Vedas, the > oldest religious > > texts known to mankind. > > > > MNS > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com From ramadoss@gbronline.com Fri Mar 01 06:35:35 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 14:35:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 91383 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 14:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 14:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 14:35:26 -0000 Received: from t0o8b8 [209.12.91.11] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.05) id A0AE17D0218; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:31:10 -0600 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020301082649.03b6d190@mail.gbronline.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:35:02 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: MASTERS -- H P B as Their AGENT In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20020228004922.00a275f0@mail.gbronline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 Dear Dallas: Thanks for the quotes. As they say the proof is in the pudding, here we are after more than a century since founding of TS, talking about theosophy and its founders and the fact that theosophical ideas presented has affected innumerable lives for the better. While there is no mass appeal - theosophy does not offer miracle solutions to ones personal problems - it continues to keep affecting those who are resonant to it. We also need to recognize the fact that HPB gave the prime of her life to the cause and many of us can be armchair quaterbacks, our contributions pales in comparison with her sacrifice, and at least make me very humble. mkr At 04:40 AM 3/1/02 -0800, dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: >Thursday, February 28, 2002 > > Re: Relation of H P B to the MASTERS OF WISDOM > > >Dear Doss: > >Any one who has read the early Theosophical literature is well >aware that it was the Masters of Wisdom who had sought for an >"agent" to work on their behalf in this world of ours. From what >is written H P B offered to act as their "agent' in the world. >One of them she called her "Master." It plainly clear that H P B >operated in close contact with Them and carried out Their >instructions. > >I append hereto some references that ought to make this evident. > >---------------------------------- From bri_mue@yahoo.com Fri Mar 01 06:36:30 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 14:36:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 33653 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 14:36:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 14:36:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.51) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 14:36:29 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.163] by n1.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2002 14:36:27 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:36:22 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Daniel_Caldwell_chanelling_=93Seraphis=94_=3F?= Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 503 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "bri_mue" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.169.43 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=62965613 X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue Daniel continues to fail to provide evidence reg. his repeated claim Blavatsky was the "teacher of K.H. and Morya" ! Also the question reg. that Daniel claim Blavatsky was the reincarnation of "Serapis" whoever this supposed to be before Blavatsky was born.... Or does Daniel believe he is channeling "Seraphis" himself ? Bri. From bri_mue@yahoo.com Fri Mar 01 06:37:11 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 14:37:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 17425 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 14:37:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 14:37:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n34.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.84) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 14:37:05 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.129] by n34.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2002 14:36:58 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:36:54 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: To Larry, Re "Central Sun" and Smith part III. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2272 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "bri_mue" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.169.43 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=62965613 X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue John, I forgot to mention to you before that it is important to be aware that what came to Blavatsky regarding the Lurian Kaballah is the "Christian Caballah" and not the really original "Lurian Kaballah" wich is part of the original (Jewish religious) Zohar. So with the web site you mentioned we are in a different bal game, and are in the Jewish religion (the one for people that go to a synagoge. And they are doing in their religious fervor a bit the same as other religions (including the Catholoc Church that claimed to be "sciencific", for example that the earth was flat and so on. So this Jewish site is trying to do the same not unlike the Bible belt Bible followers are saying the same thing about the bibl that it is "scientific". But I'd say that including the "Theosophical Science" wich is occultism. And more interresting to me then the bible, but just as much pseudo- science from a current point of view sorry to say. The people I mentioned in my part II used the Lurian Kaballah as a foundation to create their own theories, and it is that what flew into the esoteric movements that time including. Sigmund Richter in 1710 using the motto of "Sincerus Renatus," the Golden and Rosy Cross. That was based on Christian Kaballa and Alchemie, ideas and of which the grandfather of Blavatsky was a member in whose house Blavatsky partly grew up learning German and French. The Golden and Rosy Cross again should not be confused with the century earlier movement surrounding the initial Rosicrucian manifest by Valentin Andrea, that was more pre-enlightenment ( "renovation") the the later the Golden and Rosy Cross which was a counter- enlightenment group ! (No not to easy to understand all of that but what I mention is based on extensive study of mine related to these groups including the Masonic organizations of the 18th and 19th century) In my next posting I will send part of an article I am currently working on explaining what I mean with the origin of Thesosophical /esoteric pseudo science, and its development out of besides what I wrote above (which I am sending uncorrected my time is running out) among others Mesmerism) Bri. From ramadoss@gbronline.com Fri Mar 01 06:41:38 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 14:41:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 8507 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 14:41:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 14:41:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.gbronline.com) (12.145.226.4) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 14:41:37 -0000 Received: from t0o8b8 [209.12.91.11] by mail.gbronline.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.05) id A22127801FA; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:37:21 -0600 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020301083908.00bdce30@mail.infohiwy.net> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.gbronline.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:41:12 -0600 To: Subject: Internet Messages Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@gbronline.com X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=99056674 With the wide world coverage of Internet, I got curious about the geographical origin of the messages, since I presumed the subscription is from various countries of the world. Most of the time, from the e-mail address one can locate the origin country as countries outside USA have country suffixes. Increasingly many use e-mail address at hotmail, yahoo etc for various reasons. However, to my surprise I found that even when such addresses are used, the ISP address from where the message originates is imbedded in the message unless one uses one of the random scrambling sites are used to originate the message. So the privacy is some what limited!!! Out of curiosity I recently made a search of some of the originating addresses and was surprised to find one that I thought was originating from a western country; it was indeed originating from far east. Thought some Internet novices may be interested. mkr From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Fri Mar 01 06:56:54 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 14:56:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 40275 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 14:56:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 14:56:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pegasus.imagiware.com) (64.49.222.14) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 14:56:53 -0000 Received: from web14201.mail.yahoo.com (web14201.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.143]) by pegasus.imagiware.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C69B74946 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:52:18 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <20020301145217.50085.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [169.197.8.244] by web14201.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 06:52:17 PST Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:52:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanks Brigitte for mentioning my article! To: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Daniel Caldwell X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=39205895 X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Thanks Brigitte for mentioning my article! For those who would like to read the article and see the historical evidence about the Master Serapis and HPB, please see: " 'Bear Witness!': Who Was the Real H.P.B.?" http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/whitelotus2000.htm ===== Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://blavatskyarchives.com/introduction.htm "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com From gschueler@earthlink.net Fri Mar 01 07:12:01 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: gschueler@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 15:12:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 72862 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 15:12:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 15:12:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ws2-1.us4.outblaze.com) (205.158.62.68) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 15:12:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 65031 invoked by uid 1001); 1 Mar 2002 15:12:01 -0000 Message-ID: <20020301151201.65029.qmail@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from [68.33.154.217] by ws2-1.us4.outblaze.com with http for gschueler@earthlink.net; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 23:12:01 +0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: theos-l@list.vnet.net Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 23:12:01 +0800 Subject: Some Thoughts - Shoreline Evolution and LaPlace X-Originating-Server: ws2-1.us4.outblaze.com From: "Gerald Schueler" X-Originating-IP: 68.33.154.217 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=45899108 JERRY: I would like to offer some thoughts on Theosophy. I don't mean to pick on Dallas, and am simply using his recent post as a typical example. <<<>> JERRY: This quote from Dallas is exactly why I coined the term "Shoreline Theosophy" and why it is, I feel, so very applicable in most Theosophical literature. The "shallow enough at its shores" business is pure exotericism; not wrong so much as it is misleading. Why? Becuse it refies things that are not "things" at all. Exotericism builds pictures or models in our mind, and then influences or misleads us into thinking of those pictures/models as being real in themselves. One short example: Shoreline Theosophy from Dallas: "Evolution is the development of consciousness ever forward, ever expanding to the infinite." Deeper Theosophy from G de Purucker: "A globe is therefore seen to be evolving by a dual process of involution and evolution. They work together and at the same time, every step in evolution being likewise a step in involution. The elemental powers forming the energies of a planetary chain as they descend into physical substance, are at once an involution of spirit and an evolution of matter proceeding concurrently and continuously. On the ascending arc, it is an involution or disappearance of matter and an evolution of spirit, the opposite of the same thing. You cannot discover evolution working apart from involution ..." (FS of O, p 360) JERRY: The idea of evolution presented by Dallas, and others, is a linear progression into infinity, which sounds nice to our human ears, but is simply not what is really going on. It is a misleading picture. Evolution and involution always work together - they are two sides of a duality, which G de Purucker was sharp enough to know and kind enough to tell us so that we would know too. Secondly, we have discussed some, on these lists, about what I referred to as Laplacian thinking in Theosophy. Leon and others have denied this, so let me present a good example of it. The following is from Dallas: "It is therefore complete in itself and sees no unsolvable mystery anywhere. It throws the word coincidence out of its vocabulary. It hails the reign of law in everything and every circumstance." The above statements are Laplacean thinking. The idea that everything is knowable is totally out of line of modern science and modern psychology, as well as esotericism. The above, from Dallas, is totally discarding chaos not to mention acausality alias synchronicities. But the Esoteric Tradition tells us that there are Ring Pass-nots set up to bind or limit us within this universe, and so we (or Theosophy) cannot ever hope to know "everything and every circumstance." Laplacean thinking denies (ignores) chaos, uncertainty, unpredictability, and probability, and so an outsider reading the above statement by Dallas would easily jump to the conclusion that we Theosophists are like the proverbial ostrich with their head stuck in the sand. And that is the main reason why I feel the need to protest and to interject another view here. My Point: Shoreline Theosophy is knowable. It is composed of pictures, ideas, words, and models. It can be communicated and understood. Depth Theosophy is ineffable, nonconceptual, and non-dual. Shoreline Theosophy is not what is really going on. Depth Theosophy is. So, I am not arguing against Shoreline Theosophy, not am I saying it is wrong etc. I am, however, saying that most posts are actually addressing Shoreline Theosophy, and readers should remember the difference when they read anyone's posts on these lists. Just something to think about. Jerry S. -- From bri_mue@yahoo.com Fri Mar 01 07:24:23 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 15:24:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 36973 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 15:24:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 15:24:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n14.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.64) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 15:24:22 -0000 Received: from [216.115.97.83] by n14.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2002 15:26:24 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 15:24:21 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Thanks Brigitte for mentioning my article! Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20020301145217.50085.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 652 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "bri_mue" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.169.43 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=62965613 X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue Well yes, it has been posted a dozen or so times by Daniel, but apart from the mental construct that Daniel presents, wher is the historical evidence ? And by asking 40-50 times others to respond to his questions, Daniel himself amswers none. Daniel continues to fail to provide evidence reg. his repeated claim Blavatsky was the "teacher of K.H. and Morya" Also the question reg. that Daniel claim Blavatsky was the reincarnation of "Serapis" whoever this supposed to be ? Bri. --- In theos-talk@y..., Daniel Caldwell wrote: From bri_mue@yahoo.com Fri Mar 01 07:31:32 2002 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 1 Mar 2002 15:31:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 31151 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2002 15:31:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Mar 2002 15:31:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.70) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 15:31:31 -0000 Received: from [216.115.96.140] by n20.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Mar 2002 15:16:56 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 15:29:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: From esoteric invented History, to pseudo-science part I. Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 3066 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster From: "bri_mue" X-Originating-IP: 202.183.169.43 X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=629656