From schuller@alpheus.org Sat Dec 01 00:06:35 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: schuller@alpheus.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 08:06:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 11604 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 08:06:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 08:06:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pegasus.imagiware.com) (64.49.222.14) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 08:06:33 -0000 Received: from cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com [207.46.181.87]) by pegasus.imagiware.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE08440C; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 02:06:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from govert ([67.195.65.75]) by cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3779); Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:05:27 -0800 Message-ID: <006301c17a3e$a63162e0$4b41c343@govert> Reply-To: "Govert Schuller" To: Subject: New on Alpheus Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 02:02:36 -0600 Organization: Alpheus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2001 08:05:27.0772 (UTC) FILETIME=[F01789C0:01C17A3E] From: "Govert Schuller" X-Yahoo-Profile: alpheus_govert Carol Stream, December 1, 2001. Dear Friends, Finally, after a relative silence, I updated Alpheus with some enlightening and interesting items. Alpheus also went through a redesigning and restructuring process. Enjoy. Govert Schuller New: On Alpheus: At the Feet of the Master By Alcyone (J. Krishnamurti). Master Kuthumi's spiritual instructions as received by 14 year old K. www.alpheus.org/source_materials/krishnamurti/at_the_feet.html On Alpheus: The World Teacher Three chapters about the World Teacher project from Geoffrey Hodson's "Thus Have I Heard," including the highly interesting article “Camp-fire Gleams”, which gives a clairvoyant description of an early Krishnamurti gathering. www.alpheus.org/source_materials/krishnamurti/gleams.html On Alpheus: Review of Star in the East: Krishnamurti, the Invention of a Messiah by Roland Vernon. Review for The Link (No. 20 Spring/Summer 2001) by Anne Ruth Frank-Strauss. www.alpheus.org/reviews/krishnamurti/rev_vernon.html On Alpheus: Theosophy as a Political Movement Illuminating article by political scientist Mark Bevir on the role Theosophy played as a Neo-Hindu reform movement and its influence on Indian nationalist ideology and politics. www.alpheus.org/articles/bevir1.html On Alpheus: Review of Krishnamurti, Leben und Werk by Dr. Vanamali Gunturu. Anonymous book review. Book should be soon published in English. www.alpheus.org/reviews/krishnamurti/rev_gunturu.html On Alpheus: Book Report: Occult Underground & Establishment by Earl Wajenberg. This is a book report on The Occult Underground and The Occult Establishment by James Webb. www.alpheus.org/reviews/esoteric_history/rev_webb.html On Alpheus: Conclusion: The Future of the Theosophical Society. Last chapter from Blavatsky's The Key to Theosophy presenting the future "torch-bearer of Truth" and the idea of cyclical spiritual impulses by the Masters. www.alpheus.org/source_materials/theosophy/futurets.html Many links to other interesting material have been added. See: www.alpheus.org/new.html ==================== Alpheus' homepage: www.alpheus.org ==================== From samblo@cs.com Sat Dec 01 01:26:13 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 09:26:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 35463 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 09:26:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 09:26:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 09:26:11 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id r.147.586f2cc (4447) for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 04:26:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <147.586f2cc.2939fc2f@cs.com> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 04:26:07 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Logic - to Peter To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com To The Companions of the Inquiry; I suggest a reflection upon the famous Symbol of the Mahatma's the "Three Dots" (in a Triangle) so often seen and associated with the Mahatma Letters. These could be seen as the Symbolic representation of the Great Triple Bindu. Sometimes indicating "AUM". Sometimes other context of Process. Schematic of the Circle with the Triangle within as per the Mandukya -the Transcendent Uncreate and the Three Realms of Create Consciousness. Mind was not always-Consciousness can also be "Non-mind". I seem to recall that somewhere H P B states that the essential Function of Buddhi Principle is the Transcendental Component of Transcendent Intellect - the Determinative Reasoning. I recommend to those who engage the Scholarly the following work. "Vac - The Concept of the Word In Selected Hindu Tantras' Author: Andre Padoux Translated: Jacques Gentier State University of New York Press 1990 ISBN 0-7914-0258-4 (pbk.) It has heavy use of the work of Abinavagupta's Philosophy As for myself from a purely personal perspective I have to agree with Steve. What our Conditioned Mind (a la Patanjali) perceives as "Space" is only the view of Conditioned Mind. there are not "2" Spaces - there is but "1". In the Yoga of Union at the "Quiescence" of (Conditioned) Mind the True Presents Instant. Then Space is known and Home also. One view I entertain is to try to conceive how Ultimate Being matriculates Purpose with Function. A Monad- Atma/Buddhi in terms of what is at state of Enthymesis and then Mayavic Projection in conjunction with the Out-breathing and In-breathing of the Manvantaric. Can it be that at the completion when the Great Cycle is Culminated and all is returned "Into the Heart of the Father" Function no longer requires Atma or Monad and yet because intrinsic Nature is the selfsame as All nothing is lost and nothing was gained as ultimately the One is ever the One? Somewhere in the Bhagavad Gita Krishna tells Arjun "Arjun there will come a place when you will see arrayed before you all the many personalties you were and when seeing them you will laugh", of course then Arjun is in Unity with the Transcendent Self and aware. The person that first introduced Hatha Yoga in America was a man named Vasant G. Rele' he authored several lauded works one being "Bhagavad Gita - an Exposition on the Basis of Psycho-Philosophy & Psycho-Analysis" 1928. I highly recommend this and his other works to all. John From bri_mue@yahoo.com Sat Dec 01 06:25:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 14:25:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 20047 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 14:25:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 14:25:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.53) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 14:25:51 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: bri_mue@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.101] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2001 14:25:51 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 14:25:47 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: OBL, lost and found . Message-ID: <9uap9b+sorg@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1548 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 202.183.228.67 From: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue Steve: "Interesting insight. I gather that you think OBL is modeling himself after the Old Man of the Mountain instead of Saladin. I wonder if the Muslim world will catch on to that. The Old Man of the Mountain was a pest who tried to kill the Muslim hero Saladin. Unless Muslims have a very strange view of history the Old Man is no hero. Mountains can be removed from the planet if one knows which mountain to remove." Brigitte :I think they have known about this mountain more then two months, but you might be right, if not already, Bin Laden probably soon will move . This is from The Times, Nov.29: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/picture/0,,2001550174,00.gif http://www.thetimes.co.uk Reg. "Mountains can be removed", that would mean then that they might be considering the possibility of turning to tactical nuclear weapons ? It was disclosed 12-1-1 by United Nations spokesman Firdous Hassan at a daily press briefing to the newsmen. He said, "238,000 people are trapped in Kandahar and are dependent on UN agencies and other NGOs" they need support as soon as possible. In Northern Afghanistan half a million people need shelter, and food while some other 3 million requires assistance other than food in this harsh winter in the war weary country, he maintained. Turkey has bolstered its border with Iraq to prepare for any U.S.-led effort to topple the regime of Saddam Hussein. Brigitte. From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 01 10:50:37 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 18:50:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 38008 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 18:50:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 18:50:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 18:50:36 -0000 Received: from pool0127.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.127] helo=earthlink) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16AFDf-0005B2-00; Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:50:36 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Logic - to Peter Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:49:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: <20011130173811.94343.qmail@web9601.mail.yahoo.com> From: Friday, November 30, 2001 Dear Jerry: You are a Monad and so am I as I understand it -- at the root-base of our being, But we both know that we are also a composite of many different things. So in one way we are a unit ATMA But to manifest the ATMA needs many vehicles or sheaths. That's all i am trying to say. BUDDHI is the closest of them. It is said to be pure primordial matter, and as such can only offer ATMA its purity as a reflection base, so to say. Thereafter (?) comes the MIND -- MANAS, and so on down the line. Compris? Dal ======================= -----Original Message----- From: Steve Stubbs [mailto:stevestubbs@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 9:38 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Logic - to Peter JERRY: Dallas has flatly stated many > many times that atma-buddhi > IS a monad, and thus demonstrates that he doesn't > know what a monad really > is. Its supposed to be the very opposite of an > aggregate I wonder if anyone understands that these distinctions exist only in consciousness and not in reality. In reality there is no atma or buddhi as separate entities, and therefore no compromising the essential unity of it. From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 01 10:50:41 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 18:50:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 38093 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 18:50:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 18:50:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 18:50:41 -0000 Received: from pool0127.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.127] helo=earthlink) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16AFDk-0005B2-00; Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:50:40 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Henry Newlin Stokes - O.E. Library Critic Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:49:47 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: <20011129192910.30438.qmail@web14602.mail.yahoo.com> From: Friday, November 30, 2001 Dear Friend Henry Stokes: am going to disappoint you I am afraid as all I know of your Great-Grandfather Henry Newlin Stokes is through his writing in O.E.LIBRARY CRITIC. I think I have read all he wrote. This is little to say in such a case, but let me say that I value his straightforward approach to matters, his sincerity and honesty. I think that is a quality that is most important to us all. Best wishes to you, Dallas. PS I am interested in the philosophy as well as the recent (last 125 years) history of Theosophy and that is why I came across his writing. If I can help, let me know -----Original Message----- From: Henry Stokes [mailto:blisterkid@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:29 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Henry Newlin Stokes - O.E. Library Critic Hello, I am trying to research my great-grandfather Henry Newlin Stokes and I just wondered if anyone knew anything about him. I just recently discovered a webpage that discusses him. Before that, I knew next to nothing about him. I am now aware that he was a successful chemist, ran an occult library, published the OE Library Critic journal, and had a lot to say about the goings-on of the Theosophy movement in the early 20th Century. And that he coined the phrase "Back to Blavatsky", and worked towards prison reform. I also discovered that, before he became involved with the Theosophical Society, he was a member of the Order of the Initiates of Thibet (aka the Oriental Esoteric Society), headed by the "mysterious" Dr. Alberto de Sarak and his representive in the states, Miss Agnes Marsland. Some of my research indicates that he was deceived and betrayed by them. I'm just trying to learn more. Does anyone happen to know anything about Sarak or Marsland or their Order? Or even something about my great-grandfather? Any information at all would be most appreciated! My curiosity about my great-grandfather is leading me to many things. I am just now learning about Theosophy, and I find it very fascinating. Thank you, Henry Stokes From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 01 10:50:48 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 18:50:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 61878 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 18:50:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 18:50:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 18:50:48 -0000 Received: from pool0127.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.127] helo=earthlink) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16AFDp-0005B2-00; Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:50:46 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: List WHERE IS PRACTICAL THEOSOPHY TO BE FOUND ? Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:49:50 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: Friday, November 30, 2001 Re: CAN THEOSOPHY TEACH US TO BECOME GOOD OR SPIRITUAL ? Dear Friends: Without disagreeing with what Peter wrote, let me add that the practical side of Theosophy is always in the hands of the individual. As to my knowledge, there is no available or secure compilation of methods whereby one can secure "enlightenment" by following rites, rituals, formulas, ceremonies, etc... The fundamental doctrine of Theosophy is that each of us as well as each being from the Atom to the Galaxy, has at root SPIRIT -- Perfection in potential is resident within the gross forms of physical flesh and matter we use. Theosophy says to us all: We may say that inside us there is always resident a "Ray" of the ONE UNIVERSAL SPIRITUAL ALL. The real question is : Why don't we manifest it in our daily lives ? Why do we think we can get it from outside. As an example, look at the "Sermon on the Mount." Who practices those injunctions today, in Christendom? There are wonderful points -- but we are scared of them. We revere Jesus for what he said and did. And, we have the same "God" in us. Did He no, turning to His disciples, say: [John . 10 . 34-5]: "Know Ye not, ye are Gods." (or some such statement) Do you think He did not mean it ? Every Great Reformer, Teacher, Prophet has said this. H P B and the Masters of Wisdom have aid it and they have given us the reasons for it. We can always follow good examples if we WANT to. The question is: Do we want to ? Are we afraid of the cost ? If anything, the inward search to find out own divinity is the reward we seek -- it is never outside. As you may have gathered from the theory of theosophical doctrines. The increments in intelligence, consciousness, etc.. are to be worked at on the basis of applying Universal brotherhood. This in turn is based on the concepts that the Spirit in Man is an immortal being working its way through all kinds of experiences and learning how Nature works and how Karma governs all. The concept that the whole of Nature is alive and is composed of every kind of being, each at its own level of advance is important since it gives the ethics and morals for our dealing with others as our brothers. There are no special "advantages" to be learned or earned. But one can constitute ones self an assistant to Nature's ways and only on her terms -- as outlined above. There is current in the world and in the history and lore of the past that there are ways and avenues to extraordinary power. But the motive for the acquisition of such force, energy, power will not be useful to any individual unless they are going to be used for the general GOOD of all beings. [This is also to be found in the basic teachings of all the great world religions, when they are stripped of the accretions that sacerdotalism has overburdened them with.] The gist of this practice is something that Tomas Paine expressed succinctly: THE WORLD IS MY COUNTRY. TO DO GOOD IS MY RELIGION. Best wishes to you, Dallas ======================================= -----Original Message----- From: Ihar Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:10 AM To: Subject: RE: List Hi Peter. Thanks for your response. So what you're saying that Theosophy itself has no practises which may lead to 'enlightenment' (or more accurately, esoteric knowledge), but of course each may engage in such practises by themselves? So does that mean that in some senses Theosophy is a meeting of the minds, a kind of general discussion group about such matters rather than promoting anything which will lead anyone to their own direct experience of true reality? CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 01 10:50:58 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 18:50:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 96156 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 18:50:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 18:50:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 18:50:58 -0000 Received: from pool0127.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.127] helo=earthlink) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16AFDR-0005B2-00; Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:50:22 -0800 To: "AA-B-Study" Subject: RE: Logic, Allegories and Love... Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:49:15 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friday, November 30, 2001 Dear =93 Morten Sufilight=94 Very interesting -- thanks. If =93logic=94 is true it develops as mathematics -- one idea fitting into = all the others. However one can never =93force=94 a respondent or a correspondent to agree = to adopt your (or my) =93logic.=94 At best you can present a chain of reasoning for their consideration, and attach to it your observations as to difficulties that might be encountered in understanding it. Usually if it is straightforward logic, there ought t= o be no difficulties -- as in basic math. Any response may or may not arrive. If it does, then it may or may not reflect pure thought. At least it shows consideration and interest, which are not strictly analyzed by =93logic.=94 I fact I would say that the whol= e moral, ethical, emotional and psychological area is very slippery when logi= c is applied to it. Example: Can we prove to another that our conviction of the existence of metaphysical concepts, such as universality, impersonality, omnipresence, immortality, eternity, omnipotence, omniscience, etc=85 are fact -- even though they are conceptual and no physically demonstrable. However, we do have FRACTILES that demonstrate a certain community of pattern in shape and color from infinitely small to infinitely large. We have SPACE that is all-inclusive (unless we set limits to it). We have DURATION, which is illimitable and undefinable time unless, we set limits to our concepts of TIME. If there is omniscience and immortality, the to what aspect of man shall we attribute them? Shall se speak of ever increasing INTELLIGENCE? And, what is CONSCIOUSNESS -- the ability to understand another=92s thought or emotions = by either empathy or sympathy or perhaps it is =93glocking ?=94 Usually it (our attempt at such empathy/sympathy reflects another=92s biase= s and opinions, and compares them with our own. However, if we are able to make comparisons, or think of them, it implies there is somewhere a universal STANDARD -- against which (as like a =93touchstone=94) one may ma= ke accurate comparisons. If dialog develops these can be gradually exposed fo= r mutual consideration and smoothing over the rough spots. At least that=92s been my observation. Let=92s take Theosophy -- the whole body of information. Starting with ISI= S UNVEILED or even the early letters and magazine articles ( MODERN PANARION) and going forward to The SECRET DOCTRINE, and articles H P B wrote up to th= e time of her death. On the whole THEOSOPHY as she presented it, and as the Masters wrote in MAHATMA LETTERS, I find this seems to be most coherent. There are some =93rough spots.=94 But they are to me, minor. The main doctrines are reasonable, in my understanding. Universal and individual SPIRIT ( or a common IDEAL). Perfectibility as a process for all ( and ALL are implied here) that have intelligence and consciousness. Reincarnation and the constant exchange of =93atoms=94 and other sub-atomic forces -- force-fields, etc=85 along regular patterns of exchange. Nature contains and regulates all things. There is a UNIVERSAL, a causative reason for all the complexity of existence, even within our very narrow range of perception. Science is continually uncovering the evidence that Nature has preceded them. (Some call it God) but regardless of designation there is a causative and supervisory factor that rules every aspect and instant of our living. We participate in this as a cooperator. There are in effect universal Laws of cooperation and interaction among all beings on many levels. There is in existence a panorama of living which has sensitive care for all beings of whatever kind or grade. Materialism has underlying it an active creative and living set of CAUSES which need to be identified and determined. The INVISIBLE UNIVERSE needs exploration. Underlying all activities and choices, without exception, is the moral effect attached to the motive for any choice or action. This is called KARMA. What is the actual causative nature of the existence of any human being? Is the Physical body and its almost perfect organization evidence of a Universal set of imperative LAWS which actually rule all the Universe? If so, how do we as humans, with free-will participate in this? And so on=85 I find, in addition, if applied to current research and scientific thought that they (Theosophical principles) serve to bridge gaps that are =93stoppers=94 for many researchers and academicians. In that case when t= here is dialog, the basis or the premises or the parameters that are adopted hav= e to be most strictly examined. What has your experience been? Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Morten Sufilight] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 3:11 AM To: Subject: Logic, Allegories and Love... Hi Jerry and Peter and you others, Logic is of course interesting. I think for the new seekers logically being explained Theosophy is of importance, and I find that you both might agree here. Now the situation is, that to Theosophy - logic is not logic to use - alone - if you want to do well, to do good, to reach cosmic consciousness. To Theosophy - allegories are logic - or Parabrahman is logic - and logic i= s simply just not a logic solution - or one could say - logic simply isn't logic !! But I find, that a sort of intellectual presentation of Theosophy as for instance done by HPB in "The Key to Theosophy" - and I think also the book by Annie Besant in "A Study in Consciousness" or others - is all right; - and I here talk about books - and not faults in people or writers. The same goes for the books on the Raja-Yoga of Patanjali, which some Theosophist have made very good interpretations on - so to benefit the more new seekers= . HPB as a cofounder of Theosophy also encouraged publishing easier books for the beginners - as far as I can remember in some letters to the Theosophica= l Convent in USA. That seems at least logic and even a good idea. So logic is important in Theosophy, - when used in books or even lectures as intellectual presentation of Theosophy. But allegories and the use of them is at least equally important. Because it is allegories which opens th= e mind so it transcends the very limiting intellectual ways of thinking and they transcends the limited view of time and space. And to give the logical thinker or intellectual something to think about : And in the above I use the term "Theosophy" with at least two views in mind= . The first: "Theosophy" is for some Theosophists - THE organisation - and all others are not to be given any importance or only very little. The second: And to other Theosophists - "Theosophy" is just one of several branches presenting the ancient teaching of the Wisdom-religion =3D "Theosophy", which always have been there through the ages. And Theosophy i= s maybe more global than a lot of other organisations of the same kind. And not all of the above branches - (including Theosophical ones) can be said t= o be doing well, although they do something good. Here is a spiritual allegory : "NO ANSWER Q: I wrote to you in great detail a month ago, enclosing a stamped envelope for your reply. All I have received so far is a list of books. What is your answer to my questions and request to see you soon? A: A personal letter to this individual would in fact have been useless, as we can see from his own words. He wants to learn, but he does not want to accept our response - our answer is only a list of books. In his judgment, this is not interesting enough, perhaps not enough of anything. Certainly w= e have annoyed, depressed or perplexed him by not answering his questions, in spite of the stamp which he enclosed for this service. Well, for the stamp he got the list of books. When will he ask himself as to whose judgment is correct in these matters, his or ours? Whether he needs the list of books or a letter containing answers to his questions? But just as 'no answer is in itself an answer', so, too, an answer which th= e person cannot understand or profit from is no answer either. So we do not answer his questions. They have shown us that he needs books first. But if he is not registering that he needs books, and in fact writes again quite baffled and annoyed, what is the use of sending him booklists or sending him silence? Simply this, that there is always a chance that he will review his letter and your booklist, and realise his real situation and what you are in fact saying to him through the silence and booklist. If he does this, he will have carried out the first correct self-observation exercise, and should be able to go on from there." Quoting a certain writer. A view on how to counter 'dry knowledge': Love can only be got through love. The universe can be expressed with one word, and that is : Love. Love comes from the heart, where it grows out and up through the head to th= e benefit of all the worlds beings. If you think Parabrahman or God is far away, then help also is far away. If you think that Parabrahman or God is near help is also near. Always help, never hurt. Do your best, and that will be all right, - but then you have to do it - and not only try to do it. All men are created equal. My religion is love. My country is the world. I am yours, and you are mine. To be a coofin maker and lose your job, because the number of corpse is going down, is really a tragedy. Non-violence - by a certain M. L. King Jr. : "As you press on for justice, be sure to move with dignity and discipline, using only the weapon of love. Let no man pull you so low as to hate him. Always avoid violence. If you succumb to the temptation of using violence i= n your struggle, unborn generations will be the recipients of a long and desolate night of bitterness, and your chief legacy to the future will be a= n endless reign of meaningless chaos." Excerpted from "The Most Durable Power", a sermon delivered on 6 November 1956 in Montgomery, Ala. (Reprinted in Christian Century 74 [5 June 1957]: 10-11.) "I think the first reason that we should love our enemies, and I think this is at the very center of Jesus=92 thinking, is this: that hate for hate onl= y intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. If I hit you an= d you hit me and I hit you back and you hit me back and go on, you see, that goes on ad infinitum. It just never ends. Somewhere somebody must have a little sense, and that=92s the strong person. The strong person is the pers= on who can cut off the chain of hate, the chain of evil. And that is the tragedy of hate, that it doesn=92t cut it off. It only intensifies the existence of hate and evil in the universe. Somebody must have religion enough and morality enough to cut it off, and inject within the very structure of the universe that strong and powerful element of love." Excerpted from "Loving Your Enemies", a sermon delivered on 17 November 195= 7 at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Ala. (full text) "Now let me suggest first that if we are to have peace on earth, our loyalties must become ecumenical rather that sectional. Our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone; no nation can live alone, and as long as we try, the more we are going to have war in this world. Now the judgment of God is upon us, and we must either learn to live together as brothers or we are all going to perish together as fools." Excerpted from "A Christmas Sermon on Peace", delivered on 24 December 1967 at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Ga. This is what I offer to you all. Feel free to comment. from Sufilight [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat Dec 01 10:51:05 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 18:51:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 62347 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 18:51:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 18:51:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 18:51:05 -0000 Received: from pool0127.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.30.127] helo=earthlink) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16AFE5-0005B2-00; Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:51:02 -0800 To: "AA-B-Basic" Subject: RE: SERVICE and CHARITABLE WORK Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:50:09 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: Saturday, December 01, 2001 Dear Friend: Periodically this matter arises: H P B deals with it in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY. Each student of Theosophy is actively engaged in some kind of "charitable" work -- pro bono -- but does not necessarily advertise it. There are many ways of offering help. One's conscience and motives are aware of the effort and time any one puts in to such work. It is no one else's business. Students of theosophy do not have to "prove" to any one that what they are doing personally is a form of impersonal yet carefully controlled service. All comparisons are invidious. It is far better to say nothing and carry on one's service -- who wants to build up "pride ?" The "theosophical bodies" are not required to exhibit their charitable activities, if any. Most of them do provide help of a very special kind -- true wisdom. Best wishes, Dallas ===================================== -----Original Message----- From: IHarl Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 7:45 AM To: Subject: Re: SERVICE and CHARITABLE WORK > Surely not. If we look at the activities of the early leaders, one finds that they were involved in practical activities affecting the public. As a matter of fact, the first object of the Theosophical Society is a clear > statement of where theosophy to progress to. Otherwise, if it is simply a philosophical pursuit, it may not help suffering Humanity. > > mkr Hi. Yes I understand, but what I'm asking is whether these leaders themselves engaged in meditational practices and whether you as Theosophists yourselves do? Kind regards, Ian From schuller@alpheus.org Sat Dec 01 12:09:10 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: schuller@alpheus.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 20:09:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 57239 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 20:09:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 20:09:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pegasus.imagiware.com) (64.49.222.14) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 20:09:09 -0000 Received: from cpimssmtpu04.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu04.email.msn.com [207.46.181.80]) by pegasus.imagiware.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3787544B2; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:09:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from govert ([67.195.31.54]) by cpimssmtpu04.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3779); Sat, 1 Dec 2001 12:08:13 -0800 Message-ID: <00d501c17aa3$9e1ad0e0$361fc343@govert> Reply-To: "Govert Schuller" To: Subject: New on Alpheus (corrected) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:05:37 -0600 Organization: Alpheus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2001 20:08:14.0384 (UTC) FILETIME=[E89B6300:01C17AA3] From: "Govert Schuller" X-Yahoo-Profile: alpheus_govert Carol Stream, December 1, 2001. Dear Friends, Finally, after a relative silence, I updated Alpheus with some enlightening and interesting items. Alpheus also went through a redesigning and restructuring process. Enjoy. Govert Schuller New: On Alpheus: At the Feet of the Master By Alcyone (J. Krishnamurti). Master Kuthumi's spiritual instructions as received by 14 year old K. www.alpheus.org/html/source_materials/krishnamurti/at_the_feet.html On Alpheus: The World Teacher Three chapters about the World Teacher project from Geoffrey Hodson's "Thus Have I Heard," including the highly interesting article “Camp-fire Gleams”, which gives a clairvoyant description of an early Krishnamurti gathering. www.alpheus.org/html/source_materials/krishnamurti/gleams.html On Alpheus: Theosophy as a Political Movement Illuminating article by political scientist Mark Bevir on the role Theosophy played as a Neo-Hindu reform movement and its influence on Indian nationalist ideology and politics. http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/esoteric_history/bevir1.html On Alpheus: Review of Star in the East: Krishnamurti, the Invention of a Messiah by Roland Vernon. Review for The Link (No. 20 Spring/Summer 2001) by Anne Ruth Frank-Strauss. www.alpheus.org/html/reviews/krishnamurti/rev_vernon.html On Alpheus: Review of Krishnamurti, Leben und Werk by Dr. Vanamali Gunturu. Anonymous book review. Book should be soon published in English. www.alpheus.org/html/reviews/krishnamurti/rev_gunturu.html On Alpheus: Book Report: Occult Underground & Establishment by Earl Wajenberg. This is a book report on The Occult Underground and The Occult Establishment by James Webb. www.alpheus.org/html/reviews/esoteric_history/rev_webb.html On Alpheus: Conclusion: The Future of the Theosophical Society. Last chapter from Blavatsky's The Key to Theosophy presenting the future "torch-bearer of Truth" and the idea of cyclical spiritual impulses by the Masters. www.alpheus.org/html/source_materials/theosophy/futurets.html Many links to other interesting material have been added. See: www.alpheus.org/html/new.html ==================== Alpheus' homepage: www.alpheus.org ==================== From bri_mue@yahoo.com Sat Dec 01 13:15:45 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 21:15:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 77923 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 21:15:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 21:15:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n21.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.71) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 21:15:44 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: bri_mue@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.69] by n21.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2001 21:10:36 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 21:15:41 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Why was Hitler alive in 1948 in the USA? Message-ID: <9ubh9t+993k@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 9636 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 202.183.228.67 From: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue Frank Reitemeyer : "What I wrote was that according to the serious=20 Gestapo M=FCller archives in US National archives (811 micro films of=20 the German government papers, done on orders of Hitler in 1945 before=20 he disappeared, which he planned since 1941) of which Gregory Douglas=20 has launched a book series give serious first hand information that=20 the Rundflugzeuge (RFZ or UFOs) are not coming from outer space but=20 rather from Germany." Below an internet translation about the "Gestapo M=FCller archives".,=20 wich is a falsifacation. = =20 Brigitte STEFFEN WERNER/the Gestapo Mueller falsification Heinrich Mueller, Chef of the Gestapo, who "Gestapo Mueller", has the=20 war survived, itself into Switzerland saved and later for the=20 Americans worked! Thus Gregory maintains Douglas in the book "secret=20 document Mueller", whom the Druffel publishing house in the autumn=20 published 1995. The book contains minutes from American archives of=20 discussions, which Mueller with the Americans is to have led 1948 in=20 Switzerland. It supplemental by Nachbemerkungen of the publisher. The Americans wanted to find out by these discussions whether they=20 could use Mueller for their goals. Minutes contain countless details,=20 which promise unusual explanations about time-historical operational=20 sequence of the third realm. Mueller practices frank, sharp criticism=20 at the war opponents of Germany. That reads itself everything very=20 prettily. In order to make it short: Stutzig becomes the reader by=20 atmospheric particularnesses - so want to fit many formulations of=20 Mueller badly a Bavarian policeman - and by countless material=20 discrepancies, with whose enumerating sides could be filled! With=20 more exact Hinsehen the book than falsification emerges! >From the philosophy the falsification is skillfully put on. Mueller=20 quotes much after its as exzellent described memory. That does not=20 exclude mistakes naturally. Besides it must rely with its knowledge=20 on reports third. Thus error can be explained fast. But Mueller from=20 first hand knows a range of topics of minutes: Its escape from=20 Berlin - and this is only past three years. And here are=20 haarstraeubende errors. Skillfully to falsify is obviously probably=20 nevertheless very heavy, if an examination of the texts is not=20 prevented by other circumstances! Mueller's representations to be=20 analyzed and the most serious errors are to be introduced. Mueller's escape begins with an absurdity. From Hitler personally=20 Mueller keeps a brief case "full Swiss Banknoten"[1 direct for his=20 escape on 29 April ] as gift. Hitler in contrast lets the brother-in- law of EH brown, sweeping flax, contact man of many years between=20 Hitler and Himmler shoot some dozen of hours before, because he set=20 off wollte[2 ] - and that, although he will marry hours of late EH=20 brown! In the evening 29 of April against 23 o'clock Mueller with its pilot=20 in a two-seat Fiseler stork starts in the middle in the combat area=20 in a road in the zoo. The pilot vacates first by soldiers the road=20 frei![3 ] from where and as the machine came into the zoo, why=20 Mueller not with the pilot together from the location of the machine=20 flew off, Mueller ignores such questions geflissentlich. The machine remains completely unnoticed after the start by the=20 enemy. Hanna Reitsch[4 ] describes the situation completely=20 differently. When it wants to fly with colonel general von Greim on=20 26 April of the airport Rechlin out to Berlin, no airplane was come=20 through to Berlin for two days. The helicopter reserved for the=20 flight was destroyed before the takeoff with a bomb attack. With a=20 FW190, the fastest machine, which still possesses Rechlin, is with=20 escort from thirty hunters to Gatow. There the stork, with which the=20 flight was planned to Berlin, is destroyed briefly before the start=20 by an artillery hit. A second stork is fired at after the start=20 immediately, met by dirt by a tank high explosive shell wounded, the=20 machine by impacts, and the surface tanks lose nearly all gasoline up=20 to the landing. On 29 April early in the morning - in the same evening Mueller flees - they are taken out by a Arado, which stands to the protection from=20 hostile fire in a fragment box. (Mueller Fiseler stork stands in the=20 free one!) The Arado is fired at after the start immediately with=20 tracer ammunition, until she succeeds in disappearing into 1700=20 meters in a cloud layer. Only the Fiseler stork of Mueller remains=20 despite the cloudless sky completely undisturbed, only in the=20 distance dips three Russian hunters auf.[5 ] As escape route Mueller Berlin - Beelitz - selects Chemnitz -=20 Salzburg - Innsbruck - Swiss border. Mueller marks: "under us already=20 were Russians". For this escape route, which offers itself on the=20 map, there is still another very plausible reason, which Mueller does=20 not incomprehensible-prove calls: Up to the short distance from=20 Berlin to gate gau the escape route was still feindfrei.[6 ] The airplane lands five kilometers in the morning without pause=20 against 4 o'clock, before Swiss east border. The landing strip is so=20 difficult to reach that that, like that, is possible for Mueller only=20 by a helicopter or by a special airplane like a Fiseler stork.=20 Despite this adventurous situation trees had been gerodet before=20 there, a shed had been transported established and a motorcycle with=20 sidecar. Who organizes these work, who did not let fly the workers=20 there, who brought the motorcycle there, mentions Mueller=20 unfortunately. This section puts still more fully different=20 strangenesses. Mueller and Pilot push the airplane under trees, and then it=20 continues with the motorcycle. "it was a most interesting travel over=20 the border and then the mountain down there. It was a smuggler route.=20 One could not see it from air and even not, if one... Finally we came=20 on a circle road, and the problem was geloest."[7 ] from there goes=20 it further into a house at a lake somewhere between the Bodensee and=20 Vaduz. Mueller must have exceeded the border between Liechtenstein and the=20 Bodensee. The border section below Liechtenstein, to the canton grey=20 federations, separates for various reasons. Swiss border runs here in=20 the alps at a value of over 2,000 to 3,000 meters. Relevant travel=20 guides register only in the outermost part, directly before the=20 Italian border, a passport, which connects the duty-free area Samnaun=20 with Austria. Samnaun lies so separated that it until 1912 from=20 Switzerland not at all accessible war.[8 ] the border region of grey=20 federations offers winter sports to April.[9 ] Since Mueller planned his escape 1944 and neither the time of the=20 escape nor the weather conditions could foresee, a landing strip in=20 the high alps separates already therefore. Consequently Mueller=20 mentions also no snow, also there are in this height in the north=20 alps no trees, the tree belt ends at 1800 Meter.[10 ] for all these=20 reasons can a transition not have happened here, apart from=20 gebirgigen conditions of the high alps, where a motorcycle with=20 sidecar would not find a way. Thus only the border section remains above Liechtenstein. Who exceeds=20 the border here, must in each case the Rhine cross. In April 1945=20 tried allied prisoners of war, German soldiers, to arrive to=20 immigrant worker or KZ prisoners into Switzerland. On 21 April Swiss=20 Upper House of Parliament decided the total locking of the border,=20 their military guard became verstaerkt.[11 ] unclear one places at=20 the border between Germany and Switzerland became for example in the=20 Hegau of Swiss by stacheldraht markiert.[12 ] from German side became=20 the bridges in the Vorarlberg the breakup vorbereitet.[13 ] But Mueller and Pilot drive lively by the area without noticing the=20 Rhine, a Rhine bridge and the border guarding soldiers, neither=20 Germans nor Swiss, - and without of them despite the surely not quiet=20 motorcycle to be heard. Pretty also Mueller's conclusion is after=20 reaching Switzerland: "I noticed that very few people on the way=20 were. When I the mentioned, the pilot said: Surely, Mr. General,=20 today is also Sonntag!"[14 ] 30 April 1945 was nevertheless one=20 Monday! The distance of Berlin up to Swiss the border indicates Mueller at=20 750 km. I have the route checked and come on 840 km air line, the way=20 of the machine must be thus longer. The Fiseler stork, which Mueller=20 used, was a two-seater. Of the well-known Varianten[15 ] only the=20 reconnaissance aircraft version F 156C-2 is applicable. This machine=20 has a range of 385 km! Mueller reports of no intermediate stop, which=20 would have had to happen first in the protectorate Boehmen Maehren!=20 There is a special design with an auxiliary tank of 200 litres, but=20 the machine knows only the pilot tragen.[16 ] after Mueller lasted=20 there the flight including takeoff and landing five hours. The=20 Fiseler stork has a cruising speed of 130 km/h.[17 ] after five hours=20 the machine back straight 650 km would have put, takeoff and landing,=20 and only quite an intermediate stop would not have counted. Therefore the escape of Mueller, as it it described, can not have=20 taken place for technical reasons at all. Other reasons, which speak=20 against the authenticity, are the scenario of the takeoff from Berlin=20 and the transition over Swiss border. The author knows neither the=20 course of the border, who population density of the region, nor has=20 he the time at the end of of April 1945 at Swiss border experienced.=20 Mueller's escape must be freely invented!=20 From bri_mue@yahoo.com Sat Dec 01 13:27:11 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 21:27:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 67784 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 21:27:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 21:27:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.51) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 21:27:10 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: bri_mue@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.124] by n1.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2001 21:27:10 -0000 Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 21:27:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Washington planned terrorist attacks (Frank R.) Message-ID: <9ubhve+dg72@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 6207 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 202.183.228.67 From: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue Frank, in your mail at the bottom it is claimed that the US "Washington itself" flew planes into the WTC buildings. The next following anouncement however shows how flexible these conspiracy theories are, where before it were the Zyonist and the US Governement, now that India went into an alliance with the US it is suddenly "India" and Israel that did it.. Also showing that conspiracy theories can be used (and why not also created then) for political purposes : (AFP 11-30-1) - One of Poland's leading weeklies, Wprost, claims to have interviewed Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar, in its latest edition due out on Sunday. According to Omar, the September 11 attacks on the United States were "the work of India and Israel, two sworn enemies of Islam, who wanted to demonstrate that all Muslims are terrorists." Frank Reitemeyer: "Brigittte, you name me "krank" which means something like mental ill, but you address only my lower self" Brigitte: I looked and saw at one point there was a typing error, that was intendended to be "Frank Reitemeyer" Frank Reitemeyer: "Didn't HPB warn the public about the Rothschild conspiracy? The US FM were degenerated even in 1873-5 when HPB tried toreform it. HPB was fighting in London, and from the FM Europe map Steiner published were the war aims of WW I were "foreseen" ? " I only know about Steiners map, but that was a generation afther Blavatsky. Eldon Tucker recommended you for "information on Theosophy " http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahat/message/19 Asking Daniel Caldwell about the above Blavatsky statements he wrote "I have no idea what Frank is talking about" But then recently Daniel also claimed to now suddenly understand something about K.Paul Johnsons book "The Masters Revealed"whereas I have shown that that is not the case. From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Date: Thu Nov 29, 2001 12:35 am Did Washington know about the World Trade Center attacks in advance? by G. Shcherbatov ARI (Agency of Russian Information), Sept. 12, 2001 Two years ago, on the eve of the beginning of the 2nd Chechen War, when apartment houses were being blown up in Moscow, evidence surfaced that they might have been blown up not by Chechen terrorists, but by the Kremlin, to create a pretext to declare war. Now some are voicing a similar theory in relation to the recent New York terrorist attacks, i.e., that Washington itself had a hand in them. If this sounds too far-fetched for you, then read on. The whole world is talking today about the tragedy in America. Grief has come into thousands of homes. Someone at this very moment is agonizingly dying under the rubble. But that's not a tragedy. Just as Pearl Harbor paled in comparison to the American bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki which followed, the enormity of what awaits us will dwarf the tragedy of Pearl Harbor II. The plotters of such mass-murders are not mentally-incompetent maniacs of course. The deaths of thousands in and of themselves are of no benefit to anyone. What's important are the consequences. That's where we'll uncover the real aim of the plotters. We'll be able to get a good idea of who organized this whole nightmare by watching the American leadership's actions in the near future, and its actions will be as follows: 1. The tragedies in New York and Washington will untie Israel's hands for a full-fledged war against the Palestinians. It's hard to even imagine what turn this could take. 2. The USA will organize a land-based reprisal operation on the territory of the designated villain. American military men have already announced that it's not worth spending million-dollar missiles to destroy 20-dollar tents. If they decide Bin Laden's the perpetrator, American GI's will soon be in Kabul. The US has a wonderful tradition: once its soldiers have occupied a given patch of the planet as the result of a "peacekeeping" operation, they can be smoked out only by another, opposing peacekeeping operation. By the way, from Kabul one can very conveniently hit Moscow even with tactical missiles. Twenty years go such a reprisal mission wouldn't have entered anyone's head. We would have nswered by landing our paratroopers in California. Maybe that's why the Trade Center towers remained standing all that time? Even supposing Russian military brass swallow this all in silence, what bout the Chinese? The Afghan mountains offer an ideal position from which to estroy China's intercontinental ballistic missiles at launch (and the Yanks will never let the Chinese get a foothold in the oceans or in space).Judging by the recent quarrels over the Americanspy plane, the Chinese might not be so "understanding". 3. Using defense of its citizens against further attacks by "outlawtates" as a justification, the Pentagon will go ahead with a full-fledged anti-missile shield. Its space-based lasers can already knock any object out of the sky. Once everything's in place, who will dare to raise their voice in objection? 4. The introduction of total control over the population will help to revent further such terrorist acts. Modern computer technology will reate hanges in society that Orwell couldn't have imagined in his worst nightmares.A microchip fulfilling the role of passport, credit card, universal ey and medical card can be sewn under the skin of every citizen. Using this chip the everyone's whereabouts will be known at every moment. "Big Brother" may have other uses for the chip which we "little brethren" will be entirely unaware of. Introducing such measures would raise a hue and cry under normal peacetime conditions, but when airplanes are knocking down skyscrapers and subway trains are exploding citizens will quickly forget about their rights in order to secure the safety of their own behinds. In short, the perspectives are quite promising. Just how promising we'll discover soon. PS I purposly shortened the above Pearl Harbour section of Frank Reitemeyers mail. From gschueler@earthlink.net Sat Dec 01 15:59:06 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gschueler@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Dec 2001 23:59:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 19451 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 23:59:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2001 23:59:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ws2-5.us4.outblaze.com) (205.158.62.80) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 23:59:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 12100 invoked by uid 1001); 1 Dec 2001 23:59:05 -0000 Message-ID: <20011201235905.12099.qmail@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from ws2-5.us4.outblaze.com for [24.13.121.60] via web-mailer on Sun, 02 Dec 2001 07:59:05 +0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 07:59:05 +0800 Subject: Response to Steve From: "Gerald Schueler" <<>> Steve, actually they are principles, not enitites, which demonstrates how word games can get us into trouble. :-) While atma per se may be eternal, is my atma? Is yours? I know what you mean though, and I am sure that Dallas and Peter do too. Dallas and Peter and I sometimes have fun with manas technicalities (did you know that intellectual religious debates were a sport in Tibet). All in good fun, and no one ever wins or loses. Interpreting Blavatsky is almost as much fun as making sense out of the Bible... Jerry S. -- From Nisk98114@aol.com Sun Dec 02 03:09:02 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 11:08:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 54607 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 11:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 11:08:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m05.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.8) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 11:09:01 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id r.a2.1d775a68 (4320) for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 06:08:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 06:08:55 EST Subject: Just a side note..... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com The book with the review from the "Shamballa Sun" that mentions the Theosophists(with a capital letter , no less). ** IMAGINING TIBET: Perceptions, Projections, and Fantasies Edited by Thierry Dodin & Heinz Rather 512 pages, 0-86171-191-2, $28.95 http://wisdompubs.org/books/imagtibet.html "A fascinating study of the development of the images of Tibet that have excited the Western imagination. Christian missionaries, Tibetologists, governments, the Theosophists, authors of fiction and film, and finally Tibetan refugees, have all contributed to the popular image of Tibet and its people. The essays in IMAGINING TIBET illustrate how easy it is to misunderstand, even fictionalize, a culture and its people. ...This book is almost complete in conception and delivery." - Shambhala Sun From gschueler@earthlink.net Sun Dec 02 06:38:21 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gschueler@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 14:38:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 2444 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 14:38:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 14:38:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ws2-4.us4.outblaze.com) (205.158.62.75) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 14:38:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 8987 invoked by uid 1001); 2 Dec 2001 14:38:20 -0000 Message-ID: <20011202143820.8986.qmail@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from ws2-4.us4.outblaze.com for [24.13.121.60] via web-mailer on Sun, 02 Dec 2001 22:38:20 +0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 22:38:20 +0800 Subject: Principles - to Dal From: "Gerald Schueler" <> OK <<> OK <>> Dallas, I am not sure what you mean here. I view the principles as general principles, not as things. buddhi is not primordial matter - which is prakriti - but rather the general principle of form. Here is how I see it: atma - the principle of subjectivity buddhi - the principle of objectivity manas - the principle of conscious mentation kama - the principle of desire Thus I have a mind and you have a mind, both of which are individual manifestations of the general principle of manas. etc etc When you or I die, our minds will die too, but manas will keep on going. Principles are not born, nor do they die. But over time, they do evolve and change. Is this different from your own view? Jerry S. -- From bri_mue@yahoo.com Sun Dec 02 06:53:34 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 14:53:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 66906 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 14:53:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 14:53:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.74) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 14:53:34 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: bri_mue@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.4.81] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2001 14:53:34 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 14:53:29 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: IMAGINING TIBET Message-ID: <9udf99+iiln@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 3116 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 202.183.228.67 From: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue Nisk: ** IMAGINING TIBET: Perceptions, Projections, and Fantasies Edited by Thierry Dodin & Heinz Rather 512 pages, 0-86171-191-2, $28.95 http://wisdompubs.org/books/imagtibet.html Poul Pedersen in the lead article on Theosophyin IMAGINING=20 TIBET, "Tibet, Theosophy, and the Psychologization of Buddhism" Writes: Though anti-Christian, the theosophists often took over "Protestant"=20 ideas and metaphors (inner individual spirituality and truths through=20 texts versus outer ritualized and degenerated clergy-mediated=20 religious practice) using them against Christianity itself and=20 against the living religions of Asia. The theosophists, however, also=20 helped create a more positive image of the Northern Mahayana Buddhism=20 with all its magic and mystery.=20 As her personal sources of inspiration to her knowledge on Asian=20 religions and Buddhism, Blavatsky was at least familiar with the=20 writings of Max M=FCller, William Jones, Eug=E9ne Burnouf and Edwin=20 Arnold. Regarding the respect for the latter, in her will she asked=20 her friends gather together each year on the anniversary of her death=20 day and read from his Light of Asia and from the Bhagavad-Gita=20 (Cranston 1993, 429).=20 Though a young Indian, Krishnamurti, refused to take over the=20 assigned role as the expected future Buddha Maitreya(1), though the=20 movement split and members publicly doubted Blavatsky's assessed=20 spiritual and physical journeys to Tibet, since its foundation in=20 1875 the movement has had great impact on scholars'as well as=20 laymen's view of Buddhism.=20 Theosophists were in general influenced by the Swedish theologian,=20 scientist and bricoleur Swedenborg, who wanted to unite religion with=20 occult science. Buddhism, theosophy and Swedenborgianism were not at=20 all seen as opposites for the more practically interested audience.=20 The first American Buddhist journals were "devoted to Buddhism in=20 general, and to the Buddhism in Swedenborg in particular" (Loy 1996,=20 89). The first western practicing Buddhist monks, as well as many=20 practicing laymen, had their first impression about Buddhism from=20 theosophy and in general the reception and mental image of Buddhism=20 in the West has gone through somewhat theosophical glasses.(2)=20 1. As a child Krishnamurti was recognized by two leading=20 theosophists, A. Besant and C. W. Leadbeater, as the new World=20 Teacher. He was adopted by Besant and raised by Leadbeater, and as a=20 spiritual leader he played this role until 1929 when he declared not=20 to be a savior, and with the death of Besant in 1933 he finally broke=20 with the society.=20 2. Ananda Metteyya (Allan Bennett), Nyanatiloka (Anthon Gueth),=20 Anagarika Govinda (Ernst Lothar Hoffmann), Alexandra David-Neel and=20 Evans-Wentz for instance were all somehow inspired by or related to=20 the Theosophical Society. Whether expressing influence or not, the=20 present Dalai Lama had his first book published by the Theosophical=20 Society, and has visited and given speeches at the headquarters=20 several times. In general the theosophists have also founded the way=20 for what Donald Lopez calls "New Age-Orientalism" (1994). 2.=09 From bri_mue@yahoo.com Sun Dec 02 09:24:02 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 17:24:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 8535 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 17:24:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m9.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 17:24:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.56) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 17:24:01 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: bri_mue@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.100] by n6.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2001 17:24:00 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:23:58 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The "Nazi -UFO" myth and Theosophy. Message-ID: <9udo3e+8kjl@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 444 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 202.183.228.67 From: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue Etzion: "What I remember from Memory, is that after the collapse of Germany, the Americans found in an air strip a flying object, which looked spherical, like a saucer, with jet propelled engines. It was presumably one of the first testing models for a jet aircaraft." Yes, that 's all there is to it, and neo-nazi esoteric secret societys spun this into the "Nazi -UFO" myth. Brigitte From bri_mue@yahoo.com Sun Dec 02 09:24:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 17:24:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 53170 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 17:24:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 17:24:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.72) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 17:24:13 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: bri_mue@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.30] by n22.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2001 17:24:12 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:24:12 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Why was Hitler alive in 1948 in the USA? Message-ID: <9udo3s+c61n@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 893 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 202.183.228.67 From: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue Frank Reitemeyer:"George Adamski who in the early 1950's said that the UFO inhabitants with whom he will have talked, spoke German."(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/3718) George Adamski. first founded an organization called the Royal Order of Tibet, to disseminate the messages of the Theosophical Masters. In the 1940's he wrote a short story revolving around spiritual contacts with mysterious, highly evolved beings. A decade later, the same claims would once again be presented, but this time as biographical facts of Adamski's own life. Other texts from the period of this involvement with the Royal Order of Tibet were reworked and the oriental Mahatmas were replaced with aliens. And started the boom for UFO related religiosity. Brigitte From bri_mue@yahoo.com Sun Dec 02 09:25:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 17:25:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 53903 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 17:25:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 17:25:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.73) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 17:25:14 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: bri_mue@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.102] by n23.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2001 17:25:13 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:25:13 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: New article. Message-ID: <9udo5p+4mk6@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 237 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 202.183.228.67 From: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue Article by Franz Hartmann, with a foreword. See: http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a7502210/talkingimage.html Brigitte From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 02 10:11:10 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 18:11:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 14719 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 18:11:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 18:11:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.51) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 18:11:09 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.125] by n1.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2001 18:11:09 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 18:11:10 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: What Blavatsky writes on the subject of "Atman" Message-ID: <9udqru+2a5l@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 13854 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 169.197.9.65 From: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Jerry S. has his own interpretation on the subjects of "atman" and "monad". He believes that his view is far more logical and understandable than the views of Peter M. and Dallas T. For those readers and students who are not convinced of the superiority of Jerry's views or who would simply like to know more, one might want to read what H.P. Blavatsky ACTUALLY wrote on the subject. BELOW is a selection of what she wrote in some of her books. I also end the selections with a quote from KH. Daniel We say that the Spirit (the "Father in secret" of Jesus), or Atman, is no individual property of any man, but is the Divine essence which has no body, no form, which is imponderable, invisible and indivisible, that which does not exist and yet is, as the Buddhists say of Nirvana. It only overshadows the mortal; that which enters into him and pervades the whole body being only its omnipresent rays, or light, radiated through Buddhi, its vehicle and direct emanation. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-7.htm Add to this Atma, the impersonal divine principle or the immortal element in Man, undistinguished from the Universal Spirit, and you have the same seven again. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-7.htm First of all, Spirit (in the sense of the Absolute, and therefore, indivisible ALL), or Atma. As this can neither be located nor limited in philosophy, being simply that which is in Eternity, and which cannot be absent from even the tiniest geometrical or mathematical point of the universe of matter or substance, it ought not to be called, in truth, a "human" principle at all. Rather, and at best, it is in Metaphysics, that point in space which the human Monad and its vehicle man occupy for the period of every life. Now that point is as imaginary as man himself, and in reality is an illusion, a maya; but then for ourselves, as for other personal Egos, we are a reality during that fit of illusion called life, and we have to take ourselves into account, in our own fancy at any rate, if no one else does. To make it more conceivable to the human intellect, when first attempting the study of Occultism, and to solve the A B C of the mystery of man, Occultism calls this seventh principle the synthesis of the sixth, and gives it for vehicle the Spiritual Soul, Buddhi. Now the latter conceals a mystery, which is never given to any one, with the exception of irrevocably pledged chelas, or those, at any rate, who can be safely trusted. Of course, there would be less confusion, could it only be told; but, as this is directly concerned with the power of projecting one's double consciously and at will, and as this gift, like the "ring of Gyges," would prove very fatal to man at large and to the possessor of that faculty in particular, it is carefully guarded. But let us proceed with the "principles." This divine soul, or Buddhi, then, is the vehicle of the Spirit. In conjunction, these two are one, impersonal and without any attributes (on this plane, of course), and make two spiritual "principles http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-7.htm Atma // Spirit // One with the Absolute, as its radiation http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-6.htm We include Atma among the human "principles" in order not to create additional confusion. In reality it is no "human" but the universal absolute principle of which Buddhi, the Soul-Spirit, is the carrier. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-6.htm This "Higher Self" is ATMA, and of course it is "non-materializable," as Mr. Sinnett says. Even more, it can never be "objective" under any circumstances, even to the highest spiritual perception. For Atman or the "Higher Self" is really Brahma, the ABSOLUTE, and indistinguishable from it. In hours of Samadhi, the higher spiritual consciousness of the Initiate is entirely absorbed in the ONE essence, which is Atman, and therefore, being one with the whole, there can be nothing objective for it. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-9.htm THE HIGHER SELF is Atma the inseparable ray of the Universal and ONE SELF. It is the God above, more than within, us. Happy the man who succeeds in saturating his inner Ego with it! http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-9.htm Atma, the "Higher Self," is neither your Spirit nor mine, but like sunlight shines on all. It is the universally diffused "divine principle," and is inseparable from its one and absolute Meta-Spirit, as the sunbeam is inseparable from sunlight. Buddhi (the spiritual soul) is only its vehicle. Neither each separately, nor the two collectively, are of any more use to the body of man, than sunlight and its beams are for a mass of granite buried in the earth, unless the divine Duad is assimilated by, and reflected in, some consciousness. Neither Atma nor Buddhi are ever reached by Karma, because the former is the highest aspect of Karma, its working agent of ITSELF in one aspect, and the other is unconscious on this plane. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-8.htm The student must not confuse this Spiritual Ego with the "HIGHER SELF" which is Atma, the God within us, and inseparable from the Universal Spirit. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-8.htm Atman, or Atma (Sans.) The Universal Spirit, the divine monad, "the seventh Principle," so called, in the exoteric "septenary" classification of man. The Supreme Soul. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-glos.htm Atma neither progresses, forgets, nor remembers. It does not belong to this plane: it is but the ray of light eternal which shines upon and through the darkness of matter -- when the latter is willing. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-12.htm Its Primary, the Spirit (Atman) is one, of course, with Paramatma (the one Universal Spirit), but the vehicle (Vahan) it is enshrined in, the Buddhi, is part and parcel of that Dhyan-Chohanic Essence; http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-12.htm The monad -- a truly "indivisible thing," as defined by Good, who did not give it the sense we now do -- is here rendered as the Atma in conjunction with Buddhi and the higher Manas. This trinity is one and eternal, the latter being absorbed in the former at the termination of all conditioned and illusive life. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-3-11.htm Atma alone is the one real and eternal substratum of all -- the essence and absolute knowledge -- the Kshetragna.** It is called in the Esoteric philosophy "the One Witness," http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-3-11.htm Atma (our seventh principle) being identical with the universal Spirit, and man being one with it in his essence, what is then the Monad proper? It is that homogeneous spark which radiates in millions of rays from the primeval "Seven;" -- of which seven further on. It is the EMANATING spark from the UNCREATED Ray -- a mystery. In the esoteric, and even exoteric Buddhism of the North, Adi Buddha (Chogi dangpoi sangye), the One unknown, without beginning or end, identical with Parabrahm and Ain-Soph, emits a bright ray from its darkness. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-3-11.htm "Oh, wise man, remove the conception that not-Spirit is Spirit," says Sankaracharya. Atma is not-Spirit in its final Parabrahmic state, Iswara or Logos is Spirit; or, as Occultism explains, it is a compound unity of manifested living Spirits, the parent-source and nursery of all the mundane and terrestrial monads, plus their divine reflection, which emanate from, and return into, the Logos, each in the culmination of its time. There are seven chief groups of such Dhyan Chohans, which groups will be found and recognised in every religion, for they are the primeval SEVEN Rays. Humanity, occultism teaches us, is divided into seven distinct groups and their sub- divisions, mental, spiritual, and physical.* The monad, then, viewed as ONE, is above the seventh principle (in Kosmos and man), and as a triad, it is the direct radiant progeny of the said compound UNIT, not the breath (and special creation out of nihil) of "God," as that unit is called; for such an idea is quite unphilosophical, and degrades Deity, dragging it down to a finite, attributive condition. As well expressed by the translator of the "Crest-Jewel of Wisdom" -- though Iswara is "God" "unchanged in the profoundest depths of pralayas and in the intensest activity of the manvantaras" . . ., still "beyond (him) is 'ATMA,' round whose pavilion is the darkness of eternal MAYA." http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-3-11.htm It is at this point that the Cosmic Monad (Buddhi) will be wedded to and become the vehicle of the Atmic Ray, i.e., it (Buddhi) will awaken to an apperception of it (Atman); and thus enter on the first step of a new septenary ladder of evolution, which will lead it eventually to the tenth (counting from the lowest upwards) of the Sephirothal tree, the Crown. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-09.htm Thus it may be wrong on strictly metaphysical lines to call Atma- Buddhi a MONAD, since in the materialistic view it is dual and therefore compound. But as Matter is Spirit, and vice versa; and since the Universe and the Deity which informs it are unthinkable apart from each other; so in the case of Atma-Buddhi. The latter being the vehicle of the former, Buddhi stands in the same relation to Atma, as Adam-Kadmon, the Kabalistic Logos, does to En-Soph, or Mulaprakriti to Parabrahm. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-09.htm It now becomes plain that there exists in Nature a triple evolutionary scheme, for the formation of the three periodical Upadhis; or rather three separate schemes of evolution, which in our system are inextricably interwoven and interblended at every point. These are the Monadic (or spiritual), the intellectual, and the physical evolutions. These three are the finite aspects or the reflections on the field of Cosmic Illusion of ATMA, the seventh, the ONE REALITY. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-09.htm The Sixth principle in Man (Buddhi, the Divine Soul) though a mere breath, in our conceptions, is still something material when compared with divine "Spirit" (Atma) of which it is the carrier or vehicle. Fohat, in his capacity of DIVINE LOVE (Eros), the electric Power of affinity and sympathy, is shown allegorically as trying to bring the pure Spirit, the Ray inseparable from the ONE absolute, into union with the Soul, the two constituting in Man the MONAD, and in Nature the first link between the ever unconditioned and the manifested. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-06.htm Parabraham is not this or that, it is not even consciousness, as it cannot be related to matter or anything conditioned. It is not Ego nor is it Non-ego, not even Atma, but verily the one source of all manifestations and modes of existence. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-06.htm on the psychic and spiritual plane, it is equally true that the Atman alone warms the inner man; i.e., it enlightens it with the ray of divine life and alone is able to impart to the inner man, or the reincarnating Ego, its immortality. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-1-06.htm Spirit per se is an unconscious negative ABSTRACTION. Its purity is inherent, not acquired by merit; hence, as already shown, to become the highest Dhyan Chohan it is necessary for each Ego to attain to full self-consciousness as a human, i.e., conscious Being, which is synthesized for us in Man. The Jewish Kabalists arguing that no Spirit could belong to the divine hierarchy unless Ruach (Spirit) was united to Nephesh (living Soul), only repeat the Eastern Esoteric teaching. "A Dhyani has to be an Atma-Buddhi; once the Buddhi-Manas breaks loose from its immortal Atma of which it (Buddhi) is the vehicle, Atman passes into NON-BEING, which is absolute Being." This means that the purely Nirvanic state is a passage of Spirit back to the ideal abstraction of Be-ness which has no relation to the plane on which our Universe is accomplishing its cycle. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-10.htm One of your letters begins with a quotation from one of my own . . . "Remember that there is within man no abiding principle" -- which sentence I find followed by a remark of yours "How about the sixth and seventh principles?" To this I answer, neither Atma nor Buddhi ever were within man, -- a little metaphysical axiom that you can study with advantage in Plutarch and Anaxagoras. The latter made his -- nous autochrates -- the spirit self-potent, the nous that alone recognised noumena while the former taught on the authority of Plato and Pythagoras that the semomnius or this nous always remained without the body; that it floated and overshadowed so to say the extreme part of the man's head, it is only the vulgar who think it is within them . . . Says Buddha "you have to get rid entirely of all the subjects of impermanence composing the body that your body should become permanent. The permanent never merges with the impermanent although the two are one. But it is only when all outward appearances are gone that there is left that one principle of life which exists independently of all external phenomena. It is the fire that burns in the eternal light, when the fuel is expended and the flame is extinguished; for that fire is neither in the flame nor in the fuel, nor yet inside either of the two but above beneath and everywhere -- (Parinirvana Sutra kwnen XXXIX). KH in the Mahatma Letters http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-127.htm Compiled by Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From dalval14@earthlink.net Sun Dec 02 10:44:31 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 18:44:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 27475 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 18:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 18:44:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.49) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 18:44:30 -0000 Received: from pool0260.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.153.5] helo=earthlink) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16AbbJ-00058j-00; Sun, 02 Dec 2001 10:44:30 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Logic - to Peter Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:40:56 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: Friday, November 30, 2001 Dear Friends: May I break in here,. I believe that the phrase "The opened Eye of the Dangma" ( S D I 27 v. 8 ) is something that will draw all this together. For CONSCIOUSNESS to exist where all is ONE. There has to be some aspect that represents the undifferentiated potency of MIND. In the T. Glossary, p. 249 we are given an explanation for the word PARAMAPADATMAVA. -- Beyond the condition of Spirit "supremer" than Spirit, b ordering on the ABSOLUTE. [ S D I 429 ] Incidentally at the foot of that page the reference to Mahabuddhi and to Mahat appear to me have something to do with the primal potency of the MIND as a necessary component (?) of the ABSOLUTENESS -- even if that is wrong in logic at such an elevated level. Concerning the ABSOLUTE perhaps the following references could help us all? Key 61-2, 84, TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE pp. 16-19; Theosophist, Vol. III, 105fn; FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY (2nd Edn.) p. 116. Hope this helps Dallas =============================== -----Original Message----- From: Peter Merriott [mailto:nous@btinternet.com] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 2:13 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Logic - to Peter Dear Steve and Govert, Just a quickie as short of time. I think what you have both said is probably two of the best things stated so far on this topic, and I include what I have written in the "so far". Thanks and 'blessings', ...Peter From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 02 11:02:57 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 19:02:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 87956 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 19:02:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 19:02:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n35.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.85) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 19:02:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.97] by n35.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2001 19:02:56 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 19:02:52 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Brigitte brings up again Paul Johnson's composite theory about the Masters Message-ID: <9udtss+1nar@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 2759 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 169.197.9.65 From: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Brigitte wrote and quotes Paul Johnson: "Paul Johnson in ref. to the 'Koot Hoomi'/ Nisi Kanta Chattopadhyana' an hypothesis brought forward by Steve Stubbs wrote: 'Finding matches for K.H. and M. so perfect as to remove all question about fictionalization or composite characters is impossible IMO. Any further "unmasking" would only add to, not supplant, my work along these lines. There are people in her circle of acquaintance whom in some ways fit descriptions given of Mahatmas, and no perfect fits in sight, the composite theory pretty much defeats the all-fiction theory. The either a real-Morya-as described or a no-Masters-just- fantasy interpretation of the HPB/Master has questions as to the composite argument. One can indeed establish that HPB knew Rajput rulers, and that she knew some whom she traveled across India to visit in the company of chelas. One can establish that she knew Sikh noblemen from Amritsar and reformers from Lahore, a Copt in Cairo, and so on." ' In fact, Paul Johnson's "composite theory" about the Masters is a complicated hodge-podge and an ever evolving convoluted series of speculations that ignores any evidence that might contradict the said theory. But as pointed out by David Pratt in his excellent critique of some of Johnson's speculations: "Numerous details about M and KH and events in their lives are reported in theosophical literature that could not have involved or been based on Ranbir Singh or Thakar Singh. But Johnson does not regard such information as counter-evidence; indeed, he believes it is "naive" to do so. Instead, he either says that some other candidate for M or KH may have been involved in such cases, or he dismisses such details as irrelevant, fictitious, or deliberate disinformation. His basic position is therefore unfalsifiable and must be classed as a dogma rather than a testable hypothesis." For example, what kind of evidence would falsify Johnson's hypothesis? Can Johnson or any of his supporters specify the type of evidence and facts that would show that Johnson's theory is NOT viable, is NOT true? Furthermore, many of Johnson's arguments and counter arguments are basically illogical and make no sense whatsoever. I have shown this in two essays (Parts I and II) titled "Methinks Johnson Has 'Shot' Himself in the 'Foot': Daniel H. Caldwell Replies to Some of K. Paul Johnson's Rebuttal Remarks" published at: http://blavatskyarchives.com/johnsonparanormal.htm Several historical scholars have complimented me on what I have done in these two essays. Unfortunately, Brigitte M. does not allow readers on her site to know about these critques by David Pratt and me. Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://hpb.cc From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Sun Dec 02 11:43:31 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 19:43:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 53193 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 19:43:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 19:43:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n24.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.74) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 19:43:31 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.113] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2001 19:43:30 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 19:43:26 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: The URL for David Pratt's critique of some of Johnson's assertions Message-ID: <9ue08u+sqnc@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 141 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 169.197.9.65 From: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell I forgot to give the URL of David Pratt's essay. It is: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/johnson.htm Daniel http://hpb.cc From bri_mue@yahoo.com Sun Dec 02 13:28:03 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 21:28:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 83567 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 21:28:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 21:28:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.70) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 21:28:02 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: bri_mue@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.225] by n20.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2001 21:23:28 -0000 Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 21:28:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: What Blavatsky writes on the subject of "Atman" Message-ID: <9ue6d2+ogau@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 370 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 202.183.228.67 From: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue Blavatsky clearly wrote reg. this bickerring about terminology: "some fifty fools of all races, Hindus, Parsees,Mongolians and English, officials of the society, on the way to attaining Nirvana and catching Parabrahm by the tail- at the foot of my personal pagoda" (from: H.P.B.Speaks, Vol.II,pp. 43-44) Brigitte From Nisk98114@aol.com Sun Dec 02 13:33:09 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 21:33:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 1759 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 21:33:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 21:33:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d08.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.40) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 21:33:08 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id r.16e.4f0e146 (4405) for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:33:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <16e.4f0e146.293bf812@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:33:06 EST Subject: Just a thought... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com Dallas, I am not sure what you mean here. I view the principles as general principles, not as things. buddhi is not primordial matter - which is prakriti - but rather the general principle of form. Here is how I see it: atma - the principle of subjectivity buddhi - the principle of objectivity manas - the principle of conscious mentation kama - the principle of desire Thus I have a mind and you have a mind, both of which are individual manifestations of the general principle of manas. etc etc When you or I die, our minds will die too, but manas will keep on going. Principles are not born, nor do they die. But over time, they do evolve and change. Is this different from your own view? Jerry S. ============================= Just a question one might have but it would seem the principles , if we are to regard them as Eternal would never change , per say , but it is "we" the monads that change our relationship to those principles as we progress and evolve. Is time eternal? Does time change at its root? Does a ray of sunlight change when the sun is not shining? If we equate rays with principles then , where do they go if the core essence is not shining? Just some thoughts on the matter. From Nisk98114@aol.com Sun Dec 02 13:54:17 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 21:54:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 64718 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 21:54:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 21:54:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m08.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.163) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 21:54:17 -0000 Received: from Nisk98114@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id r.15.1ec3a3cf (4405) for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:54:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <15.1ec3a3cf.293bfd04@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:54:12 EST Subject: In the news... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 From: Nisk98114@aol.com Scientists Invent Single-Molecule Transistor Thousands of so-called nanotransistors could be squeezed onto single chip, Bell Labs says. David Legard, IDG News Service Friday, November 09, 2001 A team of scientists at Lucent Technologies' Bell Labs has created a transistor contained within a single large molecule, the facility says. The "nanotransistor," which measures one-billionth of a meter, is more than ten times as small as any transistor previously made, Bell Labs said in a statement. It also does not require expensive clean-room technology to manufacture, and so potentially sets the stage for a new generation of faster and cheaper processing and memory chips in a few years' time. The nanotransistor is not made of silicon, but from an organic (carbon-based) semiconductor material known as thiol. The principal problem with creating such a tiny transistor is of fabricating electrodes that are separated by only a few molecules and attaching electrical contacts to the tiny devices. This was overcome by enabling the transistor to effectively build itself from a liquid solution. The Bell Labs scientists--one physicist and two chemists--carved a notch into a silicon wafer and deposited a layer of gold at the bottom to function as one of the transistor's three electrodes. They then dipped the wafer into a solution that contained a mixture of thiol molecules and some inert organic molecules, and as the solution evaporated from the wafer, a film exactly one molecule thick was left behind on the gold electrode. They then deposited another gold electrode on top of this film, while they built the transistor's third electrode on one side of the silicon notch, according to the statement. Huge Capacity Using two nanotransistors, the Bell Labs scientists built a voltage inverter, a standard electronic circuit module commonly used in computer chips that converts 0 to 1 or vice versa. With further development, it may be possible to create microprocessors and memory chips using nanotransistors, squeezing thousands of times as many transistors onto each chip than is possible today, Bell Labs said in the statement. Silicon has been the basis of transistors since their invention at Bell Labs in 1947. Since then, improvement in transistor design has roughly followed Moore's law, which states that the maximum number of transistors on a chip will double every 18 to 24 months. But some scientists believe that continuing miniaturization of silicon-based integrated circuits will come to a halt within 10 years as fundamental physical limits are reached. The other main approach to sidestepping these limitations has been developed by IBM, which is using carbon nanotubes, a tube-shaped molecule of carbon atoms that is 100,000 times thinner than a human hair, as the basis of computer circuits. From nos@granite.net.au Sun Dec 02 15:14:36 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nos@granite.net.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 23:14:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 71847 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 23:14:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 23:14:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.granite.net.au) (203.132.126.6) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 23:14:33 -0000 Received: from nos (victor56k-44.granite.net.au [203.132.126.171]) by mail.granite.net.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17199 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:42:40 +1030 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World The "Nazi -UFO" myth and Theosophy. Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:44:16 +1030 Message-ID: <003001c17b87$13eaa230$ab7e84cb@nos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2605 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <9udo3e+8kjl@eGroups.com> From: "nos" Yeah Right Bri! Nikola Tesla developed theoretical force field generators that could only be used in circular craft for anti-grav effect. Bri - are you double sure you're not SOJ? Nos -----Original Message----- From: bri_mue@yahoo.com [mailto:bri_mue@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, 3 December 2001 3:54 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World The "Nazi -UFO" myth and Theosophy. Etzion: "What I remember from Memory, is that after the collapse of Germany, the Americans found in an air strip a flying object, which looked spherical, like a saucer, with jet propelled engines. It was presumably one of the first testing models for a jet aircaraft." Yes, that 's all there is to it, and neo-nazi esoteric secret societys spun this into the "Nazi -UFO" myth. Brigitte Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From samblo@cs.com Sun Dec 02 15:20:48 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Samblo@cs.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Dec 2001 23:20:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 30279 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2001 23:20:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m6.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Dec 2001 23:20:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m09.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.164) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Dec 2001 23:20:47 -0000 Received: from Samblo@cs.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id r.33.1ef6fcdf (3851) for ; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:20:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <33.1ef6fcdf.293c1149@cs.com> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:20:41 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World The "Nazi -UFO" myth and Theosophy. To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 From: samblo@cs.com Bridgette' Here is a Url for the "Horten" and other designs. These were probably one of the root sources that contributed to the Mythology you mentioned. John www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/nurflugel.htm From leonmaurer@aol.com Sun Dec 02 22:34:37 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 3 Dec 2001 06:34:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 99117 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2001 06:34:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2001 06:34:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m02.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.5) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2001 06:34:36 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id r.fb.1dd854d0 (25309) for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2001 01:34:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 01:34:33 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Principles - to Dal (and Jerry) To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com X-Yahoo-Profile: leonmaurer1 In a message dated 12/02/01 9:39:11 AM, gschueler@earthlink.net writes: >Dallas, I am not sure what you mean here. I view the principles as general >principles, not as things. buddhi is not primordial matter - which is prakriti >- but rather the general principle of form. Here is how I see it: > >atma - the principle of subjectivity >buddhi - the principle of objectivity >manas - the principle of conscious mentation >kama - the principle of desire > >Thus I have a mind and you have a mind, both of which are individual manifestations >of the general principle of manas. etc etc When you or I die, our minds >will die too, but manas will keep on going. Principles are not born, nor >do they die. But over time, they do evolve and change. > >Is this different from your own view? Jerry, I don't know about Dallas... But, in my view "principles" seems to be a meaningless word in this context. In actuality, what you call "principles are differentiated fields of primal energy or "substance" that are "coadunate but not consubstantial." Therefore, they must be "things" -- since energy is matter, matter is energy, and cannot be considered as being separate. i.e.; If, as you say, "prakriti is primal matter," then all those so called "principles" you identify from buddhi to kama, are differentiation's of prakriti, and therefore material things in themselves. Atma, on the other hand, being a reflection of primal consciousness or perusha, is therefore, separate from the others and immaterial -- thus, not a "thing" in itself. LHM From etvionbb@netvision.net.il Mon Dec 03 01:22:43 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: etvionbb@netvision.net.il X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 3 Dec 2001 09:22:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 10025 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2001 09:22:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2001 09:22:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mxout2.netvision.net.il) (194.90.9.21) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2001 09:22:42 -0000 Received: from LocalHost ([62.0.148.179]) by mxout2.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built Sep 5 2001)) with SMTP id <0GNR00F89GPRB0@mxout2.netvision.net.il> for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Dec 2001 11:22:40 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 11:21:57 +0200 Subject: Fw: quotes: WHATEVER THE MASTER SAYS To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <000c01c17bdb$f577adc0$b394003e@LocalHost> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal From: Etzion Becker You suffer well from me, so suffer more :-) Etzion ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Bloise To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 8:09 AM Subject: quotes: WHATEVER THE MASTER SAYS > WHATEVER THE MASTER SAYS > > Meher Baba > > Surrender is so difficult. I, myself, would not be able to > do it! To descend as the Avatar is easy, but to Surrender > mind, body and soul is impossible! Hafiz says: > > "Whatever the Master says, accept it with all your heart > without thinking." > > If I tell you I will visit your house tomorrow but don't, > and again promise and don't come - and continue doing > like this - you should not think about it. There should not > be the slightest doubt in your mind. But who can trust this > human mind? Hafiz says: > > "Because you cannot grasp them yourself, do not tell lies > about truths you hear from a Master." > > When a Perfect Master says something, you cannot > understand what he means. So, if you do not follow him, > you should not come to the conclusion that he is telling a > lie. If you say the Perfect Master is lying, then it is you > yourself who are lying, because you cannot grasp what > he says. > > Lord Meher, Vols. Thirteen & Fourteen, p. 4792 > Copyright 1979 Lawrence Reiter > From gschueler@earthlink.net Mon Dec 03 06:19:07 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gschueler@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 3 Dec 2001 14:19:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 87969 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2001 14:19:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m10.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2001 14:19:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ws2-7.us4.outblaze.com) (205.158.62.82) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2001 14:19:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 15924 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Dec 2001 14:19:05 -0000 Message-ID: <20011203141904.15920.qmail@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from ws2-7.us4.outblaze.com for [24.13.121.60] via web-mailer on Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:19:03 +0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Cc: theos-l@list.vnet.net Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:19:03 +0800 Subject: Response To Daniel From: "Gerald Schueler" <<<<<>>> Daniel, I am somewhat surprised to see you carrying on in the same tradition as Peter and Dallas (I will add your name to that their group). Being a historian, I would think that you would have a deeper appreciation for the possibility of personal interpretations. My whole premise is that Blavatsky is interpretable, and that when atma is interpreted as I had shown, one can reach a logical overview. I have also postulated that when atma is viewed as permanent and unchanging, one cannot reach a logical overview. Taking the above into consideration, please note this: You CANNOT disprove my premise by simply throwing around more quotes. I can interpret every one of your quotes to "prove" that atma is maya and changing and so on. The ONLY way you or Dallas or Peter can "prove" me wrong is to submit an overview IN YOUR OWN WORDS that logically shows atma is permanent (which is, I submit, purely your own interpretation). I have challenged anyone at all to do this, and so far no one has done so. Your avoidance of my premise, and your continual throwing around of yet more quotes demonstrates to me a frantic attempt to ... what? Now, everyone knows that I am in the Pasadena TS, and that I highly respect G de Purucker. I have shown where he too says that all 7 principles are changing and impermanent. I have quoted Blavatsky to the effect that all 7 principles are on the cosmic planes and that all of those planes are maya. I have also put this all together into a logical overview (which Eldon kindly edited and put in the latest Theos World). So as far as I am concerned, you guys are all whistling Dixie - which is OK because one can be a Theosophist and Whistle anything one wants. But I feel that I am not only trying to defend myself here, but G de Purucker as well, and to quote Blavatsky does nothing at all to my premise except maybe to substantiate it. <<<<[Dan's Blavatsky quote:]"This "Higher Self" is ATMA, and of course it is "non-materializable," as Mr. Sinnett says. Even more, it can never be "objective" under any circumstances, even to the highest spiritual perception. For Atman or the "Higher Self" is really Brahma, the ABSOLUTE, and indistinguishable from it. In hours of Samadhi, the higher spiritual consciousness of the Initiate is entirely absorbed in the ONE essence, which is Atman, and therefore, being one with the whole, there can be nothing objective for it. ">>>> I could address all of your quotes, Dan, but will confine myself to the above. Note that she clearly says that atma "can never be objective." Doesn't this logically imply that atma is the principle of subjectivity? It does to me. Here her "ABSOLUTE" is the lower one, nirvana, the spiritual realms, the three upper planes. And I have located atma exactly there. Samadhi is generally held to be the state of consciousness when in the three upper planes. ie when one astral travels to any of the three upper planes, one is in samadhi - a Buddhist would say that the subjective state is samadhi and the objective state is emptiness - and being emptiness "there can be nothing objective for it." So once again, Dan, I have no problem at all with Blavatsky, but only with your interpretation of her, which I find to be illogical. Now, we are all free to think and to interpret as we wish. But if you really want to accept my challenge or disprove my premise, then you have to do better than simply throw out yet more quotes. Jerry S. -- From gschueler@earthlink.net Mon Dec 03 06:37:35 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gschueler@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 3 Dec 2001 14:37:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 85381 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2001 14:37:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2001 14:37:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ws2-7.us4.outblaze.com) (205.158.62.82) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2001 14:37:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 14732 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Dec 2001 14:37:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20011203143734.14731.qmail@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Received: from ws2-7.us4.outblaze.com for [24.13.121.60] via web-mailer on Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:37:33 +0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:37:33 +0800 Subject: Re to Leon From: "Gerald Schueler" <<>> Well, the word "princple" is pretty flaky, and interpretable, I agree. I originally equated principles with bodies, but somewhere along the way learned to differentiate these two. <<< In actuality, what you call "principles are differentiated fields of primal energy or "substance" that are "coadunate but not consubstantial." >>> Leon, I believe Blavatsky uses the 'coadunate but not consubstantial' business to describe the relationship between the globes on the planes, not with the principles, but I suppose I could be wrong. Here is my take: atma is the principle of subjectivity, and buddhi is the principle of objectivity, and your "fields of primal energy" is what holds these two together - Fohat. In the same way that Fohat cements the I-Not-I Monad together on the first plane, so it also cements atma and buddhi together. <<< Therefore, they must be "things" -- since energy is matter, matter is energy, and cannot be considered as being separate. i.e.; If, as you say, "prakriti is primal matter," then all those so called "principles" you identify from buddhi to kama, are differentiation's of prakriti, and therefore material things in themselves.>>> OK, but when you call them "things" then they are aggregates and mayavic, which is exactly what I have been saying. <<>> Agreed. I place atma on the three upper planes and the other six "principles" on the upper three of the lower four planes (surely no principle is on the physical plane). Jerry S. -- From danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Mon Dec 03 07:11:08 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 3 Dec 2001 15:11:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 17331 invoked from network); 3 Dec 2001 15:11:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Dec 2001 15:11:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n28.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.78) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Dec 2001 15:11:07 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.106] by n28.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Dec 2001 15:11:07 -0000 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:11:04 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Jerry's Response To Daniel : Concerning HPB's statements about Atman Message-ID: <9ug4m8+gn7r@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <20011203141904.15920.qmail@earthlink.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 14816 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 169.197.9.65 From: danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: danielhcaldwell Subject:Jerry's Response To Daniel: Concerning HPB's statements about Atman Jerry you wrote in part: "You CANNOT disprove my premise by simply throwing around more quotes. I can interpret every one of your quotes to 'prove' that atma is maya and changing and so on. The ONLY way you or Dallas or Peter can 'prove' me wrong is to submit an overview IN YOUR OWN WORDS that logically shows atma is permanent (which is, I submit, purely your own interpretation). I have challenged anyone at all to do this, and so far no one has done so. Your avoidance of my premise, and your continual throwing around of yet more quotes demonstrates to me a frantic attempt to ... what?" Jerry, I think it is important for interested persons to actually read and study what Blavatsky wrote. That is why I tried to give some of HPB's own words about "atman" and "monad". Whether your view of what HPB writes is correct or not is up for each reader to decide if they think it is important to do so. But first one must ponder on what HPB writes instead of reading her through "your interpretation." I am not throwing around quotes. I'm just giving quotes so interested readers can easily read and compare them and ponder on them and then compare them with what you are writing. It's called COMPARISON. Hopefully you're not afraid of that, are you? :) BELOW are the quotes again from HPB's pen. Daniel Subject: What Blavatsky writes on the subject of "Atman" We say that the Spirit (the "Father in secret" of Jesus), or Atman, is no individual property of any man, but is the Divine essence which has no body, no form, which is imponderable, invisible and indivisible, that which does not exist and yet is, as the Buddhists say of Nirvana. It only overshadows the mortal; that which enters into him and pervades the whole body being only its omnipresent rays, or light, radiated through Buddhi, its vehicle and direct emanation. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-7.htm Add to this Atma, the impersonal divine principle or the immortal element in Man, undistinguished from the Universal Spirit, and you have the same seven again. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-7.htm First of all, Spirit (in the sense of the Absolute, and therefore, indivisible ALL), or Atma. As this can neither be located nor limited in philosophy, being simply that which is in Eternity, and which cannot be absent from even the tiniest geometrical or mathematical point of the universe of matter or substance, it ought not to be called, in truth, a "human" principle at all. Rather, and at best, it is in Metaphysics, that point in space which the human Monad and its vehicle man occupy for the period of every life. Now that point is as imaginary as man himself, and in reality is an illusion, a maya; but then for ourselves, as for other personal Egos, we are a reality during that fit of illusion called life, and we have to take ourselves into account, in our own fancy at any rate, if no one else does. To make it more conceivable to the human intellect, when first attempting the study of Occultism, and to solve the A B C of the mystery of man, Occultism calls this seventh principle the synthesis of the sixth, and gives it for vehicle the Spiritual Soul, Buddhi. Now the latter conceals a mystery, which is never given to any one, with the exception of irrevocably pledged chelas, or those, at any rate, who can be safely trusted. Of course, there would be less confusion, could it only be told; but, as this is directly concerned with the power of projecting one's double consciously and at will, and as this gift, like the "ring of Gyges," would prove very fatal to man at large and to the possessor of that faculty in particular, it is carefully guarded. But let us proceed with the "principles." This divine soul, or Buddhi, then, is the vehicle of the Spirit. In conjunction, these two are one, impersonal and without any attributes (on this plane, of course), and make two spiritual "principles http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-7.htm Atma // Spirit // One with the Absolute, as its radiation http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-6.htm We include Atma among the human "principles" in order not to create additional confusion. In reality it is no "human" but the universal absolute principle of which Buddhi, the Soul-Spirit, is the carrier. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-6.htm This "Higher Self" is ATMA, and of course it is "non-materializable," as Mr. Sinnett says. Even more, it can never be "objective" under any circumstances, even to the highest spiritual perception. For Atman or the "Higher Self" is really Brahma, the ABSOLUTE, and indistinguishable from it. In hours of Samadhi, the higher spiritual consciousness of the Initiate is entirely absorbed in the ONE essence, which is Atman, and therefore, being one with the whole, there can be nothing objective for it. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-9.htm THE HIGHER SELF is Atma the inseparable ray of the Universal and ONE SELF. It is the God above, more than within, us. Happy the man who succeeds in saturating his inner Ego with it! http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-9.htm Atma, the "Higher Self," is neither your Spirit nor mine, but like sunlight shines on all. It is the universally diffused "divine principle," and is inseparable from its one and absolute Meta-Spirit, as the sunbeam is inseparable from sunlight. Buddhi (the spiritual soul) is only its vehicle. Neither each separately, nor the two collectively, are of any more use to the body of man, than sunlight and its beams are for a mass of granite buried in the earth, unless the divine Duad is assimilated by, and reflected in, some consciousness. Neither Atma nor Buddhi are ever reached by Karma, because the former is the highest aspect of Karma, its working agent of ITSELF in one aspect, and the other is unconscious on this plane. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-8.htm The student must not confuse this Spiritual Ego with the "HIGHER SELF" which is Atma, the God within us, and inseparable from the Universal Spirit. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-8.htm Atman, or Atma (Sans.) The Universal Spirit, the divine monad, "the seventh Principle," so called, in the exoteric "septenary" classification of man. The Supreme Soul. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/key/key-glos.htm Atma neither progresses, forgets, nor remembers. It does not belong to this plane: it is but the ray of light eternal which shines upon and through the darkness of matter -- when the latter is willing. http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-12.htm Its Primary, the Spirit (Atman) is one, of course, with Paramatma (the one Universal Spirit), but the vehicle (Vahan) it is enshrined in, the Buddhi, is part and parcel of that Dhyan-Chohanic Essence; http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-12.htm The monad -- a truly "indivisible thing," as defined by Good, who did not give it the sense we now do -- is here rendered as the Atma in conjunction with Buddhi and the higher Manas. This trinity is one and eternal, the latter