From nos@granite.net.au Thu Nov 01 00:00:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nos@granite.net.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 08:00:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 22633 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 08:00:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 08:00:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pegasus.imagiware.com) (64.49.222.14) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 08:00:28 -0000 Received: from mail.granite.net.au (mail.granite.net.au [203.132.126.6]) by pegasus.imagiware.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75D7E43E0 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:00:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from nos (victor56k-03.granite.net.au [203.132.126.130]) by mail.granite.net.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05609 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:31:40 +1030 To: Subject: Honest question Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:29:57 +1030 Message-ID: <000201c162ab$336f33e0$827e84cb@nos> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2605 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal From: "nos" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What is Israel's position on a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state? 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the Scoundrel' - Samuel Johnson. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nos@granite.net.au Thu Nov 01 00:01:57 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nos@granite.net.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 08:01:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 23400 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 08:01:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 08:01:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.granite.net.au) (203.132.126.6) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 08:01:54 -0000 Received: from nos (victor56k-03.granite.net.au [203.132.126.130]) by mail.granite.net.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05682 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:33:26 +1030 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World human rights Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:31:43 +1030 Message-ID: <000701c162ab$72f1e670$827e84cb@nos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2605 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000301c1626e$dd5bf380$6a61173f@u7k5a4> From: "nos" And whats in the Bill of Rights? |-----Original Message----- |From: Dennis Kier [mailto:dennw3k@earthlink.net] |Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2001 9:38 AM |To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com |Subject: Re: Theos-World human rights | | | |More B.S., I see. | |I see much sue of the phrase "Everyone Should". And I notice |that most all of these "goals" are violated by most every |nation except the U.S. and those in Europe. | |I don't notice any enforcing mechanism in the document you |quoted. Does the U.N. have the armed forces, for instance, to |go and enforce these vague goals on, say Iraq, or perhaps China? | |It is all well and good to say that "Everyone Should" do this |or that. In the U.S. Consitution, it says the government "May |Not". It is a negative document. It prohibits the Officials |from doing things, and reserves those rights not specifically |given to the government in the document, to the States, or to |the people who have the power to give or take these rights |from the government. | |What does the United Nations charter specify that governments |May Not Do? | |And, of course, just because the document has the phrase |"UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS" that doesn't mean that |anyone must abide by those "goals", as evidenced by the things |that are going on in the non U.S. world today, nor does it |mean that the document is actually about "Human" rights. | |Dennis | | |----- Original Message ----- |From: Katinka Hesselink |To: theos-talk |Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 4:05 AM |Subject: Theos-World human rights | | |> Seems the subject of human rights has come up. Since the |watch-word of |> Amnesty is: don't complain of the dark, light a candle, I thought - |> I'll find the human rights on the web and share them. Seems |a bit more |> useful than political bickering. |> |> Katinka |> [found at http://www.hrweb.org/legal/udhr.html ] |> |> UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS |> |> Article 1 |> All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They |> are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one |> another in a spirit of brotherhood. |> |> Article 2 |> Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set |> forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as |> race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, |> national or social origin, property, birth or other status. |> Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of |> the political, jurisdictional or international status of |> the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether |> it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any |> other limitation of sovereignty. |> |> |> Article 3 |> Everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of person. |> |> Article 4 |> No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and |> the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms. |> |> Article 5 |> No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman |> or degrading treatment or punishment. |> |> Article 6 |> Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a |> person before the law. |> |> Article 7 |> All are equal before the law and are entitled without any |> discrimination to equal protection against any discrimination in |> violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such |> discrimination. |> |> Article 8 |> Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent |> national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted |> him by the constitution or by law. |> |> Article 9 |> No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile. |> |> Article 10 |> Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair, and public |hearing by |> an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his |> rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him. |> |> Article 11 |> Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed |> innocent until proven guilty according to law in a public trial at |> which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence. |> No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account |> of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal |> offence, under national or international law, at the time |> when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be |> imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the |> penal offence was committed. |> |> Article 12 |> No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with |> his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his |> honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the |protection of the |> law against such interference or attacks. |> |> Article 13 |> Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence |within the |> borders of each State. Everyone has the right to leave any country, |> including his own, and to return to his country. |> |> Article 14 |> Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other |countries asylum |> from persecution. This right may not be invoked in the case of |> prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts |> contrary to the purposes and principles of the United |> Nations. |> |> Article 15 |> Everyone has the right to a nationality. |> No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor |denied the |> right to change his nationality. |> |> Article 16 |> Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, |> nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a |> family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during |> marriage and at its dissolution. Marriage shall be entered into only |> with the free and full consent of the intending spouses. |> The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of |> society and is entitled to protection by society and the |> State. |> |> Article 17 |> Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in |association |> with others. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property. |> |> Article 18 |> Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience |> and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or |> belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in |> public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, |> practice, worship and observance. |> |> Article 19 |> Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and |> expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without |> interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas |> through any media and regardless of frontiers. |> |> Article 20 |> Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and |> association. No one may be compelled to belong to an association. |> |> Article 21 |> Everyone has the right to take part in the government of |> his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives. |> Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in |> his country. |> The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority |> of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and |> genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal |> suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent |> free voting procedures. |> |> Article 22 |> Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social |security and |> is entitled to realization, through national effort and |international |> co-operation and in accordance with the organization and |resources of |> each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights |indispensable |> for his dignity and the free development of his personality. |> |> Article 23 |> Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of |> employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and |> to protection against unemployment. |> Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to |> equal pay for equal work. |> Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration |> ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human |> dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social |> protection. Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions |> for the protection of his interests. |> |> Article 24 |> Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable |> limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay. |> |> Article 25 |> Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for |the health |> and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, |clothing, |> housing and medical care and necessary social services, and |the right |> to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, |> widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in |circumstances beyond |> his control. |> Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and |> assistance. All children, whether born in or out of |> wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. |> |> Article 26 |> Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be |> free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary |> education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education |> shall be made generally available and higher education shall be |> equally accessible to all on the basis of merit. |> Education shall be directed to the full development of the |> human personality and to the strengthening of respect for |> human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote |> understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, |> racial or religious groups, and shall further the |> activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of |> peace. |> Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education |> that shall be given to their children. |> |> Article 27 |> Everyone has the right freely to participate in the |> cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in |> scientific advancement and its benefits. Everyone has the |right to the |> protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any |> scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is |the author. |> |> Article 28 |> Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in |which the |> rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully |> realized. |> |> Article 29 |> Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the |> free and full development of his personality is possible. |> In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall |> be subject only to such limitations as are determined by |> law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and |respect for |> the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just |requirements |> of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic |> society. These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised |> contrary to the purposes and principles of the United |> Nations. |> |> Article 30 |> Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any |> State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to |> perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and |> freedoms set forth herein. |> |> __________________________________________________ |> Do You Yahoo!? |> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. |> http://personals.yahoo.com |> |> |> |> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to |http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |> |> |> | | | | |Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to |http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ | | From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 01 03:41:27 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 11:41:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 8432 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 11:41:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 11:41:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 11:41:27 -0000 Received: from pool0057.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.188.57] helo=earthlink) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zGDq-0003N4-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 03:41:22 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] Stanza III Sloka 5 -- S D I 68-9 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 03:40:43 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 Dear Peter: You ask for comments on the following pages. S D I 68-9 This, as I understand, is high metaphysics. And we, as intelligent, independent, human minds, are trying at present to account for our presence here as DUAL EGOS, living in a physical body which is always changing (as new atoms flow in and out of it), yet, it gives us a sense of continuity and bridges the gap of unconsciousness we call sleep, trance, unconsciousness, etc... (We are not sure about the bridging of the gap of death, as we do not recollect with our newly formed brain stuff in this life, the memory pictures of past personal lives -- though rare persons seem to be able to do this either partially or wholly.) Curiously we accept the fact that our consciousness is continuous, but the vehicles for that Consciousness (WE) in the past are indistinct insofar as memory goes. [But, they can be inferred, since the variations we notice from birth in humanity indicate some past experience and either gain or loss of aptitudes.] The phrase I use DUAL EGOS may seem very strange, but it is a tenet of Theosophy that resident in each human embodiment there is also a kind of TUTOR -- a SPIRITUAL EGO (or MONAD) which has attained WISDOM. In TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE , between pp. 66 and 78, [BLAVATSKY: Collected Works (TPH) Vol. 10, pp 252-266] will be found the necessary hints on this explained as an active process. In The SECRET DOCTRINE [ S D I 130, II 79, 103, 109-110, 167, 241-3 ] will be found additional statements relative to this curious but important fact. This reinforces the concept of cooperation and brotherhood conducted on an educative level which is profoundly mystical, but also illustrates the "hands-off" attitude that a "tutor" such as is the HIGHER SELF observes in regard to the "monad of lesser experience" or, our present waking consciousness that rules our embodied lives daily. These two Egos, variously named, but generally embodying characteristics that cause us to call them: [the Higher SELF (Virtuous), and the Lower self (vicious and selfish)], interact in and through our personal and environmental Karma, Reincarnation and the method of will-use we can direct to actively accelerate the process of becoming consciously Wise -- and thus learn how to bridge the gap of unconsciousness we call sleep and death., by a CONSCIOUSNESS that is never eclipsed. Primarily, as I see it, since we are all beginners at this level of commencement studies. we seek to establish who or what the "WE," the PERCEIVER, the CHOOSER and the "student" are. Since these are non-physical "beings, forces, powers," we call them "subjective," or say they are interior and provable only to our own power of conception and proving. 5. THE ROOT REMAINS, THE LIGHT REMAINS, THE CURDS REMAIN, AND STILL OEAOHOO (a) IS ONE (b). ----------------------------------------------- OEAOHOO is a sound rather than a word or term, and as it is all vowels, it seems to me to signify the entirety of the embodied Spirit at the highest level -- comparable to the A U M of ancient India It forms, I think, the APEX of the Triangle above the 4 planes as illustrated in S D I 200 diagram. In manifestation it is the "starting-point." The DIVINE UNIVERSAL MONAD. As such it contains the Male impulse (positive) and the female (negative) form provider -- out of the primordial matter pole of the Monad. -------------------------------------------- (a) OEAOHOO is rendered "Father-Mother of the Gods" in the Commentaries, or the SIX IN ONE, or the septenary root from which all proceeds. -------------------------------- DTB Outside of manifestation (or if preferred, BEFORE manifestation as known to us), is the ABSOLUTE. Concerning this none of our speculations, which are based on the limits of our plane of matter and its associated perceptions will be accurate. The FINITE cannot define the INFINITE. Therefore Theosophy and the S D recommends that we not speculate. But, it does not leave us up in the air. It says that everything that exists (anywhere and in any condition) is the exact result (under KARMA) of some CAUSE. In manifestation the Universal ATMAN is said to split into innumerable "rays" and each of these forms one pole of a Monad ATMA-BUDDHI ).. These Monads have no dimensions in our level of Time/Space, but they reflect their energy into various levels of "matter" and corresponding "forms" (all illusory because temporary) appear.. For instance a molecule, a grain of sand, a human body, a planet such as our Earth, a Sun, such as any STAR, are all temporary (and ever shifting, ever changing forms) in limited TIME.. But in terms of ETERNITY AND REALITY they are all "appearances of the MONAD which generated them. The spiritual verities and program are embedded in the eternal AKASA (the highest, 7th, aspect of the ASTRAL LIGHT .) To make it more complicated, an aspect of the CONSCIOUSNESS innate to the Monad takes up residence in each "form." One might compare this to MIND, which being present there as a mid-way position, it is enabled to PERCEIVE Spirit and Matter and their countless interactions. In this Verse it is said that 6 "forms" are synthesized in ONE -- the ATMA. -------------------------------------- All depends upon the accent given to these seven vowels, which may be pronounced as one, three, or even seven syllables by adding an e after the letter "o." This mystic name is given out, because without a thorough mastery of the triple pronunciation it remains for ever ineffectual. (b) This refers to the Non-Separateness of all that lives and has its being, whether in active or passive state. In one sense, Oeaohoo is the "Rootless Root of All"; hence, one with Parabrahmam; in another sense it is a name for the manifested ONE LIFE, the Eternal living Unity. The "Root" means, as already explained, pure knowledge (Sattva),* eternal (Nitya) unconditioned reality or SAT (Satya), whether we call it Parabrahmam or Mulaprakriti, for these are the two aspects of the ONE. The "Light" is the same Omnipresent Spiritual Ray, which has entered and now fecundated the Divine Egg, and calls cosmic matter to begin its long series of differentiations. The curds are the first differentiation, and probably refer also to that cosmic matter which is supposed to be the origin of the "Milky Way" -- the matter we know. This "matter," which, according to the revelation received from the primeval Dhyani-Buddhas, is, during the periodical sleep of the Universe, of the ultimate tenuity conceivable to the eye of the perfect Bodhisattva -- this matter, radical and cool, becomes, at the first reawakening of cosmic motion, scattered through Space; appearing, when seen from the Earth, in clusters and lumps, like curds in thin milk. These are the seeds of the future worlds, the "Star-stuff." [Footnote] ------------------------------------------------- * The original for Understanding is Sattva, which Sankara (acharya) renders antahkarana. "Refined," he says, "by sacrifices and other sanctifying operations." In the Katha, at p. 148, Sattva is said by Sankara to mean buddhi -- a common use of the word. ("The BHAGAVAT GITA with The Sanatsugatiya and The "Anugita," translated by Kashinath Trimbak Telang, M.A.; edited by Max Muller.) Whatever meaning various schools may give the term, Sattva is the name given among Occult students of the Aryasanga School to the dual Monad or Atma-buddhi, and Atma-buddhi on this plane corresponds to Parabrahm and Mulaprakriti on the higher plane. (SD I 68-69) =========================== I think that the hints H P B gives to the rest of her explaining are suggestive enough of the kind of careful study (using the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY) each one of us has to discipline himself to take. Best wishes, Dallas ================================================ -----Original Message----- From: Moderator [mailto:nous@btinternet.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:52 AM To: sd@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-sd] Stanza III Sloka 5 As we continue on with Stanza III, this next sloka expresses the fundamental truth of both existence and non-existence i.e. "the Non-Separateness of all that lives and has its being, whether in active or passive state." Your comments and questions are welcome. One way to actively engage in the study material offered is to look up related material in other parts of the Secret Doctrine (or other works by HPB, The Mahatma Letters etc) and bring it together here. First find the related material, then we can see if it will throw any light on the current sloka. CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 01 04:36:01 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 12:36:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 79761 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 12:36:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 12:36:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 12:35:56 -0000 Received: from pool0059.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.152.59] helo=earthlink) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zH0b-00019S-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 04:31:45 -0800 To: "AA-Dal" Subject: THEOSOPHY == How H P B relates to it. WHO WAS/IS H P B ? Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 04:30:33 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: Saturday, October 27, 2001 Re: Theosophic Fundamentalism and H P B Some inquiries have arisen in recent days concerning the nature of "fundamentalism" in Theosophy. -- Is there any such thing? Is Theosophy a changing set of ideas and principles? Or, Is Theosophy, as presented by H P B, a statement of facts in Nature? Here are some views offered for consideration: ----------------- THEOSOPHY and H P B as a "Messenger" =================================== WHAT IS THEOSOPHY ? Theosophy is a puzzle to some: it seems to cover so much. It demands that an ethical balance be maintained in all affairs and decisions. "All of it can be demonstrated to wisdom...it is "a great body of philosophical, scientific and ethical doctrine, forming the basis and origin of all similar thought...known as the "Wisdom Religion." It was "always taught by Adepts or Initiates, who preserve it through all time." The KNOWERS of THEOSOPHY These great Men, the Brothers, (Adepts, Initiates, Masters of Wisdom, Mahatmas, Dhyanis, Rishis, etc...) are they the wise professors the guides and flowers of the human race? Can we trust their Teachings? WE -- As MODERN MEN and WOMEN The modern man sensing that he has been so far provided in his education with partial and even inaccurate information, has a gnawing desire to see if he can discover any greater truth about his living and the quality of support that Nature affords him or her. He wants to know if he is really free. This innate desire causes him to test the parameters of the conditions and the "laws" he finds he is constrained to. 1. If he is free, is he responsible -- in case he does harm to others? 2. If he is constrained by Law or Laws, how can he ascertain if those are fair and just. In any case: -- is he a slave or a Prince? WHAT DOES THEOSOPHY CONCERN ITSELF WITH? In the night of Time, far long ago, They, the Wise Ones of the Race of earlier Humanities, formed a Brotherhood. They were taught by older and still wiser "Fathers," and "Builders" of the continually recreated Universe. This process of the Elders assisting the younger, is said to be universal and immemorial. No constraints or obligations are placed on students by their predecessors. The offer to explain, share experience, and instruct is one which has no price. Wisdom cannot be bought and sold. STUDYING THEOSOPHY in the PAST According to The SECRET DOCTRINE [ Vol. I, p. 207-8] The elders of our Race studied first that which intelligent NATURE had established, and the instructions that their "Fathers" had passed down to them.. They say that what we know of as THEOSOPHY is the result of this study and verification. They offer us information and the means to prove the accuracy of this for ourselves. TRIPLE EVOLUTION They found that a three pronged system , a three level process of development, was in place, and impartially maintained by Nature -- so that in a system where there was invariable and a universal opportunity to progress from ignorance to wisdom, each being had the same opportunities. This system is:-- 1. the SPIRITUAL, a true and real, and IMMORTAL basic and uniform for all,. 2. the INTELLECTUAL, employing all the faculties of the mind and psychic nature, and 3. the PHYSICAL, or, the "forms of physical matter," -- the assemblies of actual "vehicles," needed to carry and allow Spirit and Mind to manifest on any plane of matter. This included the progressive evolution and development of the mind and psychic nature of every human. This development had to self generated and self-controlled -- allowing for the free development of Spiritual consciousness in those vehicles. Free choice for all members of humanity was a pre-requisite for the intelligent development of the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS (also called the HIGHER SELF) in each of the many units. These 3 were his (the Spiritual REAL MAN's) "lining" in our type of matter. They demonstrate the quality of support that NATURE, as a totally sensitive and supportive Presence, offers to all levels of developing INTELLIGENCE in all its myriads degrees of differentiations. In other words, our spiritual and mental Egoity once animated and resided in an atom, then progressively: a grain of sand, a plant, an animal, and now uses a human form. >From here the possibility of becoming DIVINE rests in Mans' free choice. Patanjali, an ancient sage who wrote about the development of the mind and the spiritual nature in man said: "The Universe exists for the purpose of the Soul's development and experience." In the "Bhagavad Gita" we find Krishna ( a name given to the UNIVERSAL PRESERVATIVE aspect of Nature) saying: "I am the EGO, seated in the heart of all beings. I am the beginning, the middle and the end of all existing things... In mankind I am the Manas (mind)..." A COLLEGE of the WISE The Brotherhood of the WISE decided, as primary task, to be "concerned with the soul development of man." This evolutionary development includes every process of evolution, and all beings, on all planes, visible and invisible. WHAT is HUMANITY ? They hold that humanity (which is Divine in its innate essence) is capable of infinite perfection. This Brotherhood of the WISE, resides on Earth, but is generally unknown.. They claim that there is a single body of wisdom, of knowledge of the Laws of Nature. It has been known by many names in the past, and lately, as Theosophy (theos: godlike, and sophia: wisdom). This ancient Lodge declared that H P B was their "Messenger." Under the Karma of the race and of our Earth it was time to present again to mankind, in our technological and scientific age the unifying principles that all could understand as already operating in themselves. They pointed to the "moral Universe" that unites and underlies the visible physical. We find they wrote: "...imperfect as may be our visible agent...yet, she [HPB] is the best available at present, and her phenomena have for about half a century astounded and baffled some of the cleverest minds of the age." MAHATMA LETTERS, pp. 9-10 (Barker Edition) "After nearly a century of fruitless search, our chiefs had to avail themselves of the only opportunity to send out a European body upon European soil to serve as a connecting link between that country and our own...my brother M. made to you through her a certain offer...you had but to accept it, and at any time you liked, you would have had for an hour or more, the real baitchooly to converse with, instead of the psychological cripple you generally have to deal with now." M L 203-4 "On the 17th of November next [1882] the septenary term of trial given the Society at its foundation [1875] in which to discreetly "preach us" will expire. One or two of us hoped that the world had so far advanced intellectually, if not intuitionally, that the Occult doctrine might gain an intellectual acceptance, and the impulse given for a new cycle of occult research....consent was given for the trial. It was stipulated, however, that the experiment should be made independently of our personal management; that there should be no abnormal interference by ourselves. So casting about we found in America the man to stand as leader--a man of great moral courage, unselfish, and having other good qualities. He was far from being the best, but...he was the best available. With him we associated a woman of most exceptional and wonderful endowments. Combined with them she had strong personal defects, but just as she was, there was no second to her living fit for this work. We sent her to America, brought them together--and the trial began. From the first both he and she were given to clearly understand that the issue lay entirely with themselves. And both offered themselves for the trial... For 6 1/2 years they have been struggling against such odds as would have driven off any one who was not working with the desperation of one who stakes life and all he prizes on some desperate supreme effort. Their success has not equaled the hopes of their original backers, phenomenal as it has been in certain directions. In a few more months the term of probation will end. If by that time the status of the Society as regards ourselves -- the question of the "Brothers" be not definitely settled (either dropped out of the Society's programme or accepted on our own terms) that will be the last of the "Brothers" of all shapes and colors, sizes or degrees. We will subside out of public view like a vapour into the ocean. Only those who have proved faithful to themselves and to Truth through everything, will be allowed further intercourse with us..." M L, pp. 263-4 FOUNDATION TEACHINGS of THEOSOPHY The foundational teachings rest on the UNKNOWN principle. It is not to be defined. Information concerning IT is indefinable in terms using comparisons familiar to us. Yet, IT is the universal substratum of all. It IS, and IT is in ALL THINGS and BEINGS. "There is not one finger's breadth of void Space, in the whole Boundless (Universe)...." [S D I, p. 289] SEVEN PLANES and "PRINCIPLES" The whole universe is alive and active in seven ways and on seven planes, all cooperative and interactive. Spirit is its highest aspect in manifestation. Matter is the pole opposite to Spirit, but has the same origin. Together they are the Monad in evolution. The UNIVERSAL MONAD SPLITS ITSELF INTO COUNTLESS FRAGMENTS EACH A monad and each the mirror of all the rest. The MONAD (Spirit / Matter in Evolution) This Monad embodying a fragment (or "Ray of the Whole") is in every human Monad. It manifests through those who "permit it to do so." ..." The refusal to permit it to do so is the cause of all sin, suffering and sorrow." This is the exercise of FREE-WILL and it is present in every human.. Nature is the infinite and tender Mother that provides all living things with their needs, yet it can only exist with definite laws of charity and adjustment which are expressions of brotherhood in merciful and compassionate, and intelligent action. DUTIES of the WISE The Perfectibility of the Individual, and ultimately, of the Race of human Monads, constantly provides the "Brotherhood of the Wise" with new members,. As such, they enter, only to assume a position of responsibility and assistance to the Laws (karmic activity) of Nature,. They continue to widen and deepen their consciousness and take on additional responsibilities. Their influence is for the universal and impartial, brotherly, and charitable "good" in the government of all... "This offers a sublime concept of aim, and purpose for living. It agrees with the basic yearnings of the soul, and it destroys pessimism and despair." MANKIND The Monad in Man is a Conscious Spirit, and in him are conjoined Spirit, Matter and Mind. His responsibility when he ascends to the human stage is to assist those Monads who form "matter." They are at a lower stage in the universal program of evolution. They receive this influence as an assistance in purifying themselves, and rising to be the conscious vehicle of the Spiritual "Ray" already present in them. To do this, the Monad that becomes human has to get into "touch with all planes of nature." INDIVIDUALITY and PERSONALITY In Nature, as in Man, the 7 principles, show that the INDIVIDUALITY (or Divine Man) is a trinity, a thinker. It passes from one "4-fold house" to the next (PERSONALITY is the name of the "mask" that bears it). By the process of reincarnation, in successive embodiments, its continuity provides for its enjoyment or suffering according chosen deeds, thoughts, desires and words made freely in the past by it. The spiritual man is immortal and has always existed.. In him is embodied the law of cause and effect. He is Karma. In one life he is known as a Personality, but, in the stretch of eternity he is one Individual, independent of name, form, or recollection." "Each man's life and character are the outcome of his previous lives and thoughts. Each is his own judge, his own executioner...each, by his own life reaches his reward, rises to the heights of knowledge...and power of good for all. Nothing is left to chance, or partiality, but all is under the governance of law....His own spirit is the essence of this LAW. Right ethics are ever the same: Universal Brotherhood." REINCARNATION This will not be the first nor the last time that we bring our personality into rebirth Reincarnation is designed under Karma to assist the Personality (the Monad that is inexperienced, and which is presently under tuition) in its struggle to become an INDIVIDUALITY -- an eternal, self-conscious SPIRITUAL BEING. And, this means becoming a Brother to all beings. Nature accepts no selfishness or self-indulgence., and tolerates no violence done to another. This is the ultimate and invariable LAW. As a part of the process, the embodied spiritual INDIVIDUALITY is always present -- as a model, as an actual inspiration to the Personality. Its "voice" is the "Conscience," and the "Intuition." PERSONALITY -- What is it ? What is our "personality ?" Theosophy teaches that it is made up of the :"aggregates," of Monadic Immortals who are at the beginning of their respective pilgrimages. They are not yet individually and independently "conscious." They have been called our "younger Brothers." They provide us with our "form and our invisible 'vehicles' -- astral body, life force, desires, lower Mind. We could call them our Karmic Skandhas --we attracted them and imprinted them with our will and desires. In effect this imprint served to weld them to us under Karma. Many were thus created by us in our past lives, and the immediate past of this life. Among them one may assume that there is one which stands at the forefront of the "material, personal evolution" and serves as a focus for the essential lower-mind, [or "Kama-Manasic"] link to the Spiritual Divine EGO -- our HIGHER SELF, the divine MONAD. Observing our own character, capacity and nature may we not legitimately ask: "Are these links pure, perfect, anxious to observe the LAW in us ? If not, we ought to find out what our real situation is, as an embodied Mind. SELF-DEVELOPMENT -- SELF-REFORM Theosophy states that the process of self-development and self-reform exists as a part of Nature's program, and, as the only honorable means for the self-determined progress of the "Monad of lesser experience," that we call our "Personality?" Considering this broadly, do we not witness here a universal program of evolution towards a spiritual and an actual brotherhood of all Nature ? Theosophy states that through it, the whole mass of manifested matter, may also be raised to a higher stage along the common "Path" to Sublime Perfection. Is "brotherhood" not a practical method of brotherly assistance offered directly to "matter (or the 'form')" by every indwelling Spirit ? THEOSOPHY as HISTORY Would it not be possible to reflect on the nature of Theosophy -- as the accumulated experience -- wisdom -- of our past and the past of everyone -- BUDDHI. Theosophy holds that it is and states that the "Akasa" is the permanent and ineffaceable record of the entire past. Ours and that of every Monad is included there -- immortally. Might we not consider that the literature OF THEOSOPHY, which the Brothers have offered us through H P B, is the record of their research into Nature and her Laws? Could it be an expression of the Wisdom which could be brought to our attention at this time? Is it possible that the concept of impersonal and universal brotherhood is the sole basis, and that an important aspect of this offering is contained in the statement that there will never be any infringement on the free choice of any one? Since Theosophical living is something expressed as "principles" and, Karma, can it not possibly be considered as an attempt to give us, each independently, an impetus, a good reason, for the self-reform our own Lower nature ? It could be treated as an educational opportunity given by Those who are ahead of, and wiser than we yet are on the Path to Spiritual vision and living. It is, therefore, for us to consider, and we are we not freely able to use this information, to improve and guide ourselves out of some difficulties we may have created for ourselves in the past. ? D T B ============================= From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 01 05:14:13 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 13:14:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 86290 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 13:14:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 13:14:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 13:14:13 -0000 Received: from pool0145.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.152.145] helo=earthlink) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zHfg-00013x-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 05:14:13 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Honest question Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 05:13:44 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: <000201c162ab$336f33e0$827e84cb@nos> From: What has this to do with theosophy? Since you say this is an honest question, can you define it further ? Do you have some particular reason for asking this in this study group? Dallas =========================== -----Original Message----- From: nos Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:00 AM To: Subject: Honest question What is Israel's position on a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state? 'Patriotism is the last refuge of the Scoundrel' - Samuel Johnson. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 01 05:14:26 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 13:14:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 36893 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 13:14:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 13:14:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 13:14:26 -0000 Received: from pool0145.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.152.145] helo=earthlink) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zHfq-00013x-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 05:14:22 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World human rights Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 05:13:46 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: <000701c162ab$72f1e670$827e84cb@nos> From: Dear Nos: I thought you might recognize this as one of the basic documents on human freedom we have so far generated as a basis for our solidarity, early in the politics that generated the U.S.A. But do you wish to compare it with the altruism and the fraternity implied in THEOSOPHY ? If so what are your specific questions? Dallas ====================== -----Original Message----- From: nos [mailto:nos@granite.net.au] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:02 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Theos-World human rights And whats in the Bill of Rights? |-----Original Message----- |From: Dennis Kier [mailto:dennw3k@earthlink.net] |Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2001 9:38 AM |To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com |Subject: Re: Theos-World human rights | | | |More B.S., I see. | |I see much sue of the phrase "Everyone Should". And I notice |that most all of these "goals" are violated by most every |nation except the U.S. and those in Europe. | |I don't notice any enforcing mechanism in the document you |quoted. Does the U.N. have the armed forces, for instance, to |go and enforce these vague goals on, say Iraq, or perhaps China? | |It is all well and good to say that "Everyone Should" do this |or that. In the U.S. Consitution, it says the government "May |Not". It is a negative document. It prohibits the Officials |from doing things, and reserves those rights not specifically |given to the government in the document, to the States, or to |the people who have the power to give or take these rights |from the government. | |What does the United Nations charter specify that governments |May Not Do? | |And, of course, just because the document has the phrase |"UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS" that doesn't mean that |anyone must abide by those "goals", as evidenced by the things |that are going on in the non U.S. world today, nor does it |mean that the document is actually about "Human" rights. | |Dennis | | |----- Original Message ----- |From: Katinka Hesselink |To: theos-talk |Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 4:05 AM |Subject: Theos-World human rights | | |> Seems the subject of human rights has come up. Since the |watch-word of |> Amnesty is: don't complain of the dark, light a candle, I thought - |> I'll find the human rights on the web and share them. Seems |a bit more |> useful than political bickering. |> |> Katinka |> [found at http://www.hrweb.org/legal/udhr.html ] |> |> UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS |> |> Article 1 |> All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They |> are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one |> another in a spirit of brotherhood. |> |> Article 2 |> Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set |> forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as |> race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, |> national or social origin, property, birth or other status. |> Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of |> the political, jurisdictional or international status of |> the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether |> it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any |> other limitation of sovereignty. |> |> |> Article 3 |> Everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of person. |> |> Article 4 |> No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and |> the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms. |> |> Article 5 |> No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman |> or degrading treatment or punishment. |> |> Article 6 |> Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a |> person before the law. |> |> Article 7 |> All are equal before the law and are entitled without any |> discrimination to equal protection against any discrimination in |> violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such |> discrimination. |> |> Article 8 |> Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent |> national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted |> him by the constitution or by law. |> |> Article 9 |> No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile. |> |> Article 10 |> Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair, and public |hearing by |> an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his |> rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him. |> |> Article 11 |> Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed |> innocent until proven guilty according to law in a public trial at |> which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence. |> No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account |> of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal |> offence, under national or international law, at the time |> when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be |> imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the |> penal offence was committed. |> |> Article 12 |> No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with |> his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his |> honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the |protection of the |> law against such interference or attacks. |> |> Article 13 |> Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence |within the |> borders of each State. Everyone has the right to leave any country, |> including his own, and to return to his country. |> |> Article 14 |> Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other |countries asylum |> from persecution. This right may not be invoked in the case of |> prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts |> contrary to the purposes and principles of the United |> Nations. |> |> Article 15 |> Everyone has the right to a nationality. |> No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor |denied the |> right to change his nationality. |> |> Article 16 |> Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, |> nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a |> family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during |> marriage and at its dissolution. Marriage shall be entered into only |> with the free and full consent of the intending spouses. |> The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of |> society and is entitled to protection by society and the |> State. |> |> Article 17 |> Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in |association |> with others. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property. |> |> Article 18 |> Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience |> and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or |> belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in |> public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, |> practice, worship and observance. |> |> Article 19 |> Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and |> expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without |> interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas |> through any media and regardless of frontiers. |> |> Article 20 |> Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and |> association. No one may be compelled to belong to an association. |> |> Article 21 |> Everyone has the right to take part in the government of |> his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives. |> Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in |> his country. |> The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority |> of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and |> genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal |> suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent |> free voting procedures. |> |> Article 22 |> Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social |security and |> is entitled to realization, through national effort and |international |> co-operation and in accordance with the organization and |resources of |> each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights |indispensable |> for his dignity and the free development of his personality. |> |> Article 23 |> Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of |> employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and |> to protection against unemployment. |> Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to |> equal pay for equal work. |> Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration |> ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human |> dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social |> protection. Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions |> for the protection of his interests. |> |> Article 24 |> Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable |> limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay. |> |> Article 25 |> Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for |the health |> and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, |clothing, |> housing and medical care and necessary social services, and |the right |> to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, |> widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in |circumstances beyond |> his control. |> Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and |> assistance. All children, whether born in or out of |> wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. |> |> Article 26 |> Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be |> free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary |> education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education |> shall be made generally available and higher education shall be |> equally accessible to all on the basis of merit. |> Education shall be directed to the full development of the |> human personality and to the strengthening of respect for |> human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote |> understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, |> racial or religious groups, and shall further the |> activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of |> peace. |> Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education |> that shall be given to their children. |> |> Article 27 |> Everyone has the right freely to participate in the |> cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in |> scientific advancement and its benefits. Everyone has the |right to the |> protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any |> scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is |the author. |> |> Article 28 |> Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in |which the |> rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully |> realized. |> |> Article 29 |> Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the |> free and full development of his personality is possible. |> In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall |> be subject only to such limitations as are determined by |> law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and |respect for |> the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just |requirements |> of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic |> society. These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised |> contrary to the purposes and principles of the United |> Nations. |> |> Article 30 |> Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any |> State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to |> perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and |> freedoms set forth herein. |> |> __________________________________________________ |> Do You Yahoo!? |> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. |> http://personals.yahoo.com |> |> |> |> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to |http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ |> |> |> | | | | |Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to |http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ | | Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From bri_mue@yahoo.com Thu Nov 01 05:23:49 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 13:23:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 64183 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 13:23:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 13:23:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 13:23:50 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: bri_mue@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.4.65] by n1.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2001 13:23:49 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:23:45 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: human rights Message-ID: <9rrid1+d274@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 193 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 203.146.223.81 From: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue New article; THEOSOPHICAL MASTERS AND THE EXTREME RIGHT at; http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a7502210/index.html Brigitte From nos@granite.net.au Thu Nov 01 05:52:31 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nos@granite.net.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 13:52:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 3582 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 13:52:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 13:52:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.granite.net.au) (203.132.126.6) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 13:52:30 -0000 Received: from nos (victor56k-08.granite.net.au [203.132.126.135]) by mail.granite.net.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16656 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:24:11 +1030 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Honest question Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 00:22:25 +1030 Message-ID: <000001c162dc$72112d20$877e84cb@nos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2605 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: From: "nos" It was directed to those participating in the debate on world politics etc. It of course relates back to HPBs activities etc.. Nos |-----Original Message----- |From: dalval14@earthlink.net [mailto:dalval14@earthlink.net] |Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2001 11:44 PM |To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com |Subject: RE: Theos-World Honest question | | |What has this to do with theosophy? | |Since you say this is an honest question, can you define it further ? | |Do you have some particular reason for asking this in this study group? | |Dallas | |=========================== | |-----Original Message----- |From: nos Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:00 AM |To: |Subject: Honest question | |What is Israel's position on a unilateral declaration of a |Palestinian state? | | |'Patriotism is the last refuge of the Scoundrel' - Samuel Johnson. | | | | | |[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] | | | | |Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to |http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ | | | | | |Your use of Yahoo! |Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ | | From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 01 10:19:02 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 18:19:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 9269 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 18:19:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 18:19:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 18:19:02 -0000 Received: from pool0584.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.32.74] helo=earthlink) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zMQe-0001ES-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:19:00 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] Re: Masters Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:18:27 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: Thursday, November 01, 2001 Dear Friend: You are right, but I would add that none of us can truly evaluate THEOSOPHY if we do not at least read her works and take her statements to consider at our leisure with a view to verifying them. this is serous stuff, only if we make it so. I think it is the opportunity of a lifetime, and am very grateful that I started reading ISIS UNVEILED WHEN i WAS 18 -- then I had to use The THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY to look up the words -- that was fun for me. Try the shortest -- the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) -- it is available on http://www.blavatsky.net If the "Heart Doctrine" of mysticism and true spiritual discernment interests you, then study the VOICE OF THE SILENCE. There is work for weeks, months and years if your interest is continuous and you really want to KNOW. At least, that is my opinion and has been my experience. Best wishes, Dallas ======================== -----Original Message----- From: Enter your name here Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:15 AM To: Subject: Re: Masters -- Finding out the meaning of THEOSOPHY I gather that HPB was a dynamic person who clearly did not stagnate into the a dogmatic and static view of anything or the glorification of any one person. Everything in the lower worlds, includind books, philosophies et al are evolving towards continuous quality improvement. Perhaps the masters are still trying to comunicate new ideas all the time ! CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 01 10:19:09 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 18:19:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 64262 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 18:19:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 18:19:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 18:19:09 -0000 Received: from pool0584.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.32.74] helo=earthlink) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zMQX-0001ES-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:18:53 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-study] RE:Masters -- and OURSELVES -- What makes us "tick?" .... IDEALISM Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:18:17 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thursday, November 01, 2001 Dear Pedro: Re: Is there any one who does absolutely nothing? Re; Are ideals, aspirations, altruism, virtues non-existent ? As far as I know there is hardly any one alive who does not, at some time, make decisions to DO SOMETHING. Even such mundane things as breathing the air, or eating, or performing hundreds of functions concerned with living and assisting one=92s family an= d friends. Broadly, one could say that idealism and altruism represent expressions of human activities based on responsibility, on law, on brotherhood. Regardless of any choice or non-choice of a =93goal=94 there is in each of = us something that lures us on. What is that ? The alternative is total immobility, inertia -- and the fact we do not practice that, is significant, is it not ? What then impels us forward? Why do we even communicate ? Is there not also something in us that distinguishes between virtue and vice? If so what is it ? How are these to categories of attitudes, procedures, living, and goals defined or evaluated -- perhaps not to others= , but to one=92s inner self ? Is there a general consensus as to the presence of law and laws in the Universe ? We see them in mathematics, chemistry, physics, biology, medicine, astronomy, engineering, and why not in human relations? Are they non-existent there simply because we DO NOT LIKE THEM ? Are our =93likes o= r dislikes=94 so powerful? Why not study the inner nature of mankind and of ourselves? What can we learn about our psychology? Are we the slaves of our desires or do we direct them? are we the slaves of our thoughts, or can we direct the Mind? If the answer is YES, we are in CONTROL. If WE can exercise =93control,=94= then who are WE ? And what is the purpose of our living? Can we frame an accurate answer to this? And does this kind of answer change over a period of time? If so, then what in us is stable, and what in us is changing? Wh= o OBSERVES? Who WITNESSES ? And why should there not be =93perfected=94 beings who are virtuous and pra= ctice it wherever they are? They don=92t have to advertise, but their silence an= d secrecy does not imply they do not exist, does it ? There are some important unanswered questions here, I think. But I also feel we could all profit by re-reading the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) It is available on line at http://www.blavatsky.net -- I think we could all profit by a review of the essentials of Theosophy that we can find in the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB). Best wishes, Dallas. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: poeavaor Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 6:45 PM To: Subject: RE: Masters and OURSELVES .... That's why l don't belong to any organization, most of them tell you how to do things, what is the "path", they don't see this as ambition, wanting to be "more", they think it is ok to be ambitious. Like being born, dying and getting to 'It" should be something natural not forced, it should just be not approached or searched for. And we don't really know what "it" is. Peace. Pedro T-------. --- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eldon@theosophy.com Thu Nov 01 12:54:31 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 20:54:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 63754 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 20:54:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 20:54:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n12.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.51) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 20:54:32 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: eldon@theosophy.com Received: from [10.1.10.114] by n12.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2001 20:54:32 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 20:54:30 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: time to review how theos-talk operates Message-ID: <9rscq6+ktdq@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1848 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 167.167.110.112 X-eGroups-Announce: yes From: "Eldon B Tucker" X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker There have been some complaints about personal attacks on the list. Others, primarily on another list, have observed an inconsistent reponse by theos-talk list members. When certain subjects or individuals are involved, I'm told, there's immediate support for the individuals attacked. When other subjects or individuals are involved, others pile on and magnify the attack. The general rule here has been no personal attacks, but in the interest of openness and freedom of thought, the list is unmoderated and there's been no heavy-handed policing of the messages going out. I value that freedom and would hate to give it up. We're an odd assortment of individuals, of different political, cultural, racial, religious, and economic backgrounds. We're presumably here -- hopefully -- because we share a common interest in Theosophy or theosophic inquiry, and not with other, perhaps hidden agendas (like were someone with us in order to recruit us into their favorite religious cult or "save us from the devil" or some other such balony). To date, when people have gotten out-of-hand, there often have been other list members posting messages asking them to "shape up," or sending them private emails to the same effect. Since this hasn't consistently happened, I'd like to ask everyone what their thoughts are on the subject. What do people think is appropriate and what is "off topic"? (This deals with the content side of the discussions.) What do people think is appropriate behavior and treatment of others? (This deals with the process side of the discussions.) I'd like to see what people post (and write privately to me). Perhaps it's time to review and change the guidelines or the way things are run. Based upon input from list members, I'll write up what the proposed changes might be, for review by list members. -- Eldon Tucker From bri_mue@yahoo.com Thu Nov 01 13:45:12 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 21:45:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 39773 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 21:44:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 21:44:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n18.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.1.37) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 21:44:46 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: bri_mue@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.68] by n18.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 01 Nov 2001 21:44:48 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 21:44:43 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: OCCULTISM OR RAJA-YOGA Message-ID: <9rsfoc+hje7@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 12825 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 202.183.228.67 From: bri_mue@yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Profile: bri_mue To Brigitte and other interested persons: Subject: What did Dallas Tenbroeck really mean by using the word "verbatim"? Over the last several years on the Internet's public Theosophical forums, Dallas Tenbroeck has made numerous statements about "verbatim" or "accurate verbatim" reprints of H.P. Blavatsky's and W.Q. Judge's original writings. Here are just three examples from numerous statements made by Dallas on this subject: ------------------------------------------------- (1) "During the last years of his life, from 1912 to 1919 Crosbie edited the magazine THEOSOPHY. . . In those pages he reprinted most of the original articles and answers to questions which HPB and Judge has printed originally in THEOSOPHIST, LUCIFER, and PATH magazines. . . . Those articles have been made into books as accurate verbatim reprints of the originals, and are made available by ULT." ------------------------------------------------- (2) "Most of the articles of H.P.B. and Judge and other students had gone out of print. Verbatim reprints of these were then issued in the magazine THEOSOPHY." ------------------------------------------------- (3) ". . . THEOSOPHY CO. has done a verbatim reprint of the 1889 edition [of the Voice of the Silence]. There exists a facsimile edition - but I do not know who issued it . . . . -------------------------------------------------- At one point several years ago, I asked Dallas about his "preferences" and "recommendations" concerning originals, facsimiles of originals, verbatim reprints, edited reprints, etc. of Madame Blavatsky's writings. He wrote the following most important reply: ---------------------------------------------------- (4) "I prefer a facsimile edition - no question of authenticity. Comments and changes can be put in an ADDENDUM for students to consult. "Verbatim editions are acceptable, if truly and accurately VERBATIM - no changes or emendations or interpolations. Any such can be handled through an ADDENDUM." ---------------------------------------------------- Looking at the above statements (1), (2) and (3) from Dallas' pen, one might ponder on Dallas' definition of the word "verbatim". His statement (4) above gives his view on the meaning of "verbatim". A verbatim reprint would have NO changes NO emendations NO interpolations made to the original text. I give below from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary (online), some definitions of these key words used by Dallas: verbatim --- in the exact words : word for word to emend --- to correct usually by textual alterations emendation --- an alteration designed to correct or improve interpolate --- to alter or corrupt (as a text) by inserting new or foreign matter >From these definitions, one can plainly see that a verbatim edition would be "in the exact words" of HPB as found in the her original editions. No textual alterations would be found in a verbatim edition. No corrections would be made. No insertion of new words or matter would be in a "truly and accurately" reprint of HPB's works. When Dallas first gave the above definition in statement (4) I immediately thought of the "verbatim editions" of ISIS UNVEILED, KEY TO THEOSOPHY and VOICE OF THE SILEENCE currently published by Theosophical University Press of Pasadena, California. This publisher has RE-typeset the texts from the original editions of these works. TUP's INTENT has been to produce exact "word for word " reproductions of HPB's texts. Therefore, no changes were intentionally introduced into the text. No "corrections" were made in spelling of words, punctuation or alleged errors. However, some unintentional changes may have been introduced in this laborious process of typesetting. The above definition of "verbatim" as found in Dallas' statement (4) and as also found in the dictionary definitions are repeatedly confirmed by Dallas in many of his other postings over many years. I give below a good sample of these additional statements by Dallas. His comments corroborate the above statements concerning the meaning of "verbatim". -------------------------------------------------------------------- (5) "In the final editing of the SD HPB (1888) was assisted by a number of persons and it is quite possible that some erros [errors] in proof reading, etc... have crept in. But that does not give anyone the right to change what she put her signature to. If such errors are detected, then out of respect for her and the two Masters who gave their certificate of co-authorship to that work, I would say that no one ought to 'edit' those, without due warning at every change to readers, by suitable foot-notes -- yet we find that by 1893 a 'third and Reveised Edition of the SD was issued with over 40,000 alterations, UNMARKED, as compared to the original 1888 edition." ---------------------------------------------- (6) ". . . when people insert their 'corrections' unmarked into the original text they are taking a liberty with that original. If they do find some valuable changes that ought to be considered, a list in an ADDENDUM would be a far more suitable way of recording those and offering them for the consideration of succeeding waves of students and seekers." --------------------------------------------- (7) "Publish the original as ORIGINAL. "Put in an Appendix and therein list those changes that study an scholarship reveal to be necessary (?) alterations. Give the reason why and the source to be checked by the student for accuracy." ----------------------------------------------- (8) "All changes or scholarly findings ought to find place in an ADDENDUM to the original text, so that all can be reviewed by the student. "No one likes to find that someone else has interposed their thinking (however learned) between himself and the original. That is the height of presumption, in my esteem." -------------------------------------------------- (9) Concerning "all reprints" of HPB's writings, Dallas wrote: ". . . . LEAVE THE ORIGINAL TEXT UNCHANGED, but place 'Bullets' or some other markers in the margins, and in an ADDENDUM, page by page, add their comments and proposed changes. That would be fair to future students, and also raise their personal integrity higher - but what has happened, although irreversible, need not be perpetuated hereafter." ------------------------------------------------ (10) "I am satisfied that there are changes [in later editions] and whether they are good or bad, whether they amplify or detract, is not the problem, PROVIDING THEY ARE IDENTIFIED, so that trusting student can know whether that was what HPB wrote OR NOT." ---------------------------------------------- (11) "If you wish I can give you as an example the little book that the Adyar Theosophical Publishing House issued under H.P.Blavatsky's name as PRACTICAL OCCULTISM It is one of the articles she wrote. If you have a copy then compare it with the same article you have reprinted by the U.L.T. in OCCULTISM OR RAJA-YOGA. The U.L.T. is verbatim from H.P.Blavatsky's original article -- remember proof reading it myself years ago. The ADYAR version has been heavily edited. . . . "In U.L.T. I don't have to worry -- the originals are available on a reliable basis . . . . Personally I would rather deal with H.P.Blavatsky's 'mistakes' than with those created by others who have had the temerity to believe they knew better than she did, and had the audacity to introduce changes which she did not authorize. . . ." ------------------------------------------------- In light of some of the above statements and the STANDARD Dallas has enunciated innumerable times, I asked Dallas several years ago if he would please tell his readers what editions of HPB's works he preferred and recommended. To my question, he listed his preferences and recommendations including the following words about HPB's VOICE OF THE SILENCE: ". . . THEOSOPHY CO. has done a verbatim reprint of the 1889 edition [of the Voice of the Silence]. There exists a facsimile edition - but I do not know who issued it . . . ." Dallas' preference and recommendation of the edition of the VOICE published by the Theosophy Company completely puzzled and baffled me. I knew from my own research that numerous changes and emendations had been introduced into this Theosophy Company ed. of HPB's classic when compared with the original 1889 ed. How could Dallas call this TC edition "a verbatim reprint of the 1889 edition." especially in light of his many statements quoted earlier in this posting? When I publicly pointed out these observations, Dallas wrote back at one point: "I looked up in Webster's dictionary the meaning of 'Verbatim.' It says : 'word for word, in the same words.' . . . "I have in the past checked the T. Co. edition with the original 1889 VOICE, of which I have a copy autographed by HPB, (that I purchased in 1964 from John Watkins in London) and found it to be indeed 'word by word, in the same words.' " I replied at some point that Dallas was certainly in error about this TC edition being verbatim ["word by word, in the same words"] with the original. But in two later emails, Dallas admitted that certain kinds of changes had indeed been made. ". . . it is quite clear to me that the T. Co. edition of the text of the VOICE has changes in format, punctuation, numbering, footnotes, and even in the spelling of some of the "foreign" words (as diacritical marks were not used). No argument there." This seemed quite puzzling to me in light of his previous use of the term "verbatim". I was even more "dumbfounded" that Dallas was still recommending to new students and inquirers this Theosophy Company edition in which not only the changes, emendations, corrections and interpolations were to be found but in addition nothing in this TC edition indicated that changes had actually been made. No publisher's or editor's Note telling the reader that corrections, etc. had been made to HPB's original text was to found anywhere in the Theosophy Company edition. In other words, all these changes were UNMARKED to use a word Dallas likes to use. Had not Dallas written before in clear and unmistakable terms on this very point of UMARKED editing as well as to even more important ethical issues? Here are just a few excerpts from Dallas' pen already quoted earlier in this email relevant to the ethical dimension: "If such errors are detected [in HPB's original SECRET DOCTRINE], then OUT OF RESPECT for her and the two Masters who gave their certificate of co-authorship to that work, I would say that no one ought to 'edit' those, without due warning at every change to readers, by suitable foot-notes." Caps added. ". . . when people insert their 'corrections' unmarked into the original text they are TAKING A LIBERTY with that original." Caps added. "No one likes to find that someone else has interposed their thinking (however learned) between himself and the original. That is the HEIGHT OF PRESUMPTION, in my esteem." Caps added. Had not Dallas written that all such changes should be clearly MARKED especially putting them in an appendix separate from HPB's original text "so that trusting student can know whether that was what HPB wrote OR NOT"? In light of all of the above, why would Dallas still prefer and recommend this Theosophy Company edition? His reply to this question of why he would still be preferring and recommending this TC edition is in part as follows: "Why should I not recommend the T. Co. edition? Did you find any changes in meaning ? The difference in the PREFACE as to the spelling of 'Bhagavad Gita / Bhagavadgita' seem to me to fall under this. In any case that is not the TEXT of the VOICE." As soon as I read this and similar statements I knew that Dallas, for reasons best known to him, was now quibbling with me about the definition of "verbatim"!! No longer was he defining "verbatim" as he had formerly done, now Dallas was changing the focus and suggesting that we should not be concerned with whether actual alterations had been done to the TEXT , but instead we should be concerned with whether or or not the alteration had actually changed the MEANING!! In closing this section, I now wonder what Dallas really meant when he wrote: "Those articles [by Blavatsky and Judge] have been made into books as accurate verbatim reprints of the originals, and are made available by ULT." Does he mean by "verbatim" in this statement that no alterations to the text of these articles will be found in these compilations or does he mean that changes and corrections may have been made but none of the changes alter the meaning of the originals? Daniel Caldwell From eldon@theosophy.com Thu Nov 01 14:18:00 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 1 Nov 2001 22:18:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 38263 invoked from network); 1 Nov 2001 22:17:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 1 Nov 2001 22:17:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pegasus.imagiware.com) (64.49.222.14) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Nov 2001 22:17:59 -0000 Received: from SCRIBE.theosophy.com (unknown [167.167.110.112]) by pegasus.imagiware.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0A9B43F2 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:17:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101135016.00a360f0@theosophy.net> X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 14:17:53 -0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: why was this cross-posted? In-Reply-To: <9rsfoc+hje7@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Eldon B Tucker X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker At 09:44 PM 11/1/01 +0000, you wrote: >To Brigitte and other interested persons: >Subject: What did Dallas Tenbroeck really mean by using the word >"verbatim"? > >Over the last several years on the Internet's public Theosophical >forums, Dallas Tenbroeck has made numerous statements about "verbatim" >or "accurate verbatim" reprints of H.P. Blavatsky's and W.Q. Judge's >original writings. Here are just three examples from numerous >statements made by Dallas on this subject: >... >Daniel Caldwell This message was a cross posting of a message of Daniel's to the Universal Seekers mailing list. Standing by itself, the message is out of context, and likely posted without Daniel's knowledge. On that list, Brigitte has made some statements about theosophical history. Daniel has replied, but found her responses unsatisfactory. He gave this piece as an example of the thoroughness that he peruses a subject, setting a certain level of expectation there regarding the quality of responses he expects from her. Given that this message was posted without explanation nor comment, and given that Brigitte has been critical of both Daniel and the theos-talk mailing list, it would seem like the intent in posting this was to start a gratuitous argument between Daniel and others here. Perhaps this would be to detract from the time he might be taking to deconstruct her historic theories on the other list? The other thing might be that this is a test of my recent call for comments about civil behavior on theos-talk. What do we do when it appears that someone is trying to instigate an argument between people out of possible hostility or with the intent of simply wasting their time? On the surface, it appears that Brigitte is being nasty to Daniel, and to others she may embroil in a gratuitous argument. Perhaps there is a less apparent but innocent reason that she could reveal to us? -- Eldon From dennw3k@earthlink.net Thu Nov 01 16:41:17 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Nov 2001 00:41:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 55904 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 00:41:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2001 00:41:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Nov 2001 00:41:14 -0000 Received: from 1cust161.tnt12.lax3.da.uu.net ([63.23.86.161] helo=u7k5a4) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zSOU-0006Va-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 16:41:11 -0800 Message-ID: <000201c16337$09768d40$a156173f@u7k5a4> To: References: <20011029120544.55137.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World human rights Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:15:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "Dennis Kier" ----- Original Message ----- From: Katinka Hesselink To: theos-talk Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 4:05 AM Subject: Theos-World human rights > Seems the subject of human rights has come up. Since the > watch-word of Amnesty is: don't complain of the dark, light > a candle, I thought - I'll find the human rights on the web > and share them. Seems a bit more useful than political > bickering. A good Idea. And since you have so generously provided us with the document written by political hacks, and mindless bureaucrats, I can provide the Real Thing, - I trust you can tell the difference. Dennis ******************* First Ten Amendments passed lay Congress Sept 25, 1789. Ratified by three fourths of the States December 15, 1791. ARTICLE I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. ARTICLE II A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and hear arms, shall not be infringed. ARTICLE III No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law. ARTICLE IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. ARTICLE V No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property., without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation. ARTICLE VI In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense. ARTICLE VII In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law. ARTICLE VIII Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. ARTICLE IX The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. ARTICLE X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. ****************** > > Katinka > [found at http://www.hrweb.org/legal/udhr.html ] > > UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS > > Article 1 > All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and > rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and > should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. > > Article 2 > Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set > forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, > such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or > other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth > or other status. > Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of > the political, jurisdictional or international status of > the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether > it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any > other limitation of sovereignty. > > > Article 3 > Everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of > person. > > Article 4 > No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and > the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms. > > Article 5 > No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman > or degrading treatment or punishment. > > Article 6 > Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a > person before the law. > > Article 7 > All are equal before the law and are entitled without any > discrimination to equal protection against any > discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against > any incitement to such discrimination. > > Article 8 > Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the > competent national tribunals for acts violating the > fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by > law. > > Article 9 > No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or > exile. > > Article 10 > Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair, and public > hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the > determination of his rights and obligations and of any > criminal charge against him. > > Article 11 > Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be > presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a > public trial at which he has had all the guarantees > necessary for his defence. > No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account > of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal > offence, under national or international law, at the time > when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be > imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the > penal offence was committed. > > Article 12 > No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with > his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks > upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to > the protection of the law against such interference or > attacks. > > Article 13 > Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence > within the borders of each State. > Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his > own, and to return to his country. > > Article 14 > Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other > countries asylum from persecution. > This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions > genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts > contrary to the purposes and principles of the United > Nations. > > Article 15 > Everyone has the right to a nationality. > No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor > denied the right to change his nationality. > > Article 16 > Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to > race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and > to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to > marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. > Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full > consent of the intending spouses. > The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of > society and is entitled to protection by society and the > State. > > Article 17 > Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in > association with others. > No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property. > > Article 18 > Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience > and religion; this right includes freedom to change his > religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in > community with others and in public or private, to manifest > his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and > observance. > > Article 19 > Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and > expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions > without interference and to seek, receive and impart > information and ideas through any media and regardless of > frontiers. > > Article 20 > Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and > association. > No one may be compelled to belong to an association. > > Article 21 > Everyone has the right to take part in the government of > his country, directly or through freely chosen > representatives. > Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in > his country. > The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority > of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and > genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal > suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent > free voting procedures. > > Article 22 > Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social > security and is entitled to realization, through national > effort and international co-operation and in accordance > with the organization and resources of each State, of the > economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his > dignity and the free development of his personality. > > Article 23 > Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of > employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and > to protection against unemployment. > Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to > equal pay for equal work. > Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable > remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an > existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if > necessary, by other means of social protection. > Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for > the protection of his interests. > > Article 24 > Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including > reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic > holidays with pay. > > Article 25 > Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for > the health and well-being of himself and of his family, > including food, clothing, housing and medical care and > necessary social services, and the right to security in the > event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old > age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his > control. > Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and > assistance. All children, whether born in or out of > wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection. > > Article 26 > Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be > free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. > Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and > professional education shall be made generally available > and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on > the basis of merit. > Education shall be directed to the full development of the > human personality and to the strengthening of respect for > human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote > understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, > racial or religious groups, and shall further the > activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of > peace. > Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education > that shall be given to their children. > > Article 27 > Everyone has the right freely to participate in the > cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to > share in scientific advancement and its benefits. > Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and > material interests resulting from any scientific, literary > or artistic production of which he is the author. > > Article 28 > Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in > which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration > can be fully realized. > > Article 29 > Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the > free and full development of his personality is possible. > In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall > be subject only to such limitations as are determined by > law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and > respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of > meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and > the general welfare in a democratic society. > These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised > contrary to the purposes and principles of the United > Nations. > > Article 30 > Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying > for any State, group or person any right to engage in any > activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of > any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein. > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 01 17:03:06 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Nov 2001 01:03:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 61258 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 01:02:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2001 01:02:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Nov 2001 01:02:50 -0000 Received: from pool0669.cvx4-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.148.159] helo=earthlink) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zSjM-0006kw-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 17:02:45 -0800 To: Subject: RE: Re: SD Stanza III Sloka 5. == S D I 68-9 == OEAOHOO Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:02:01 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: Thursday, November 01, 2001 Dear Ramprakash: Re OEAOHOO OEAOHOO seems to be an expression on our physical plane of an occult sound which, if viewed from the plane of our physical matter consists of the potent vowel sounds [ English A E I O U -- to which some aspirates like "H" might be added to show a difference ]. Such a "word" will always remain "lost" to those who would misuse it, or who do not know enough to keep its effects within prudent and useful boundaries. We could take it to be a "blind," as the sound we might make would not, at this stage, produce much of an effect, except upon ourselves as the first victims of our ignorance or evil desires. Yet there are "Black Magicians" who have succeeded in securing some occult powers and who therefore can wreck a degree of havoc. But, fortunately this is limited, and generally does not affect the pure in Heart, and those devoted to Brotherhood. But there are those who have a curiosity, a desire to discover the secret and the occult powers in Nature, and whose drive and intentions are usually for amusement, and curiosity, if not for ambition, and the actual power to harm and compel the obedience of others of lesser intellect to them. If one desires to read a couple of stories relating in general to this, one could secure two books written by Bulwer-Lytton : 1. ZANONI, and 2, A STRANGE STORY. I would venture to say that the use of OEAOHOO is not meant to be literal, but, rather, to evoke some of the correlations on the intuitive plane of the Buddhi and the Akas -- of which I would say there are 7 on the invisible and supernal. Obviously this is a matter for deep and intense study, theoretically, before any practical experimental use can be attempted. One is inclined to recall the delightful story put to music by Dukas: THE SORCERER'S APPRENTICE. {the apprentice got use of a "word" to start the filling of a large container with water -- but he did not know the "word" to stop that process. His Master, returning, banished the flood. (And got rid of the rash apprentice.) [ Conclusion: One ought always to know how to STOP something before it is begun.] H P B in CAVES AND JUNGLES OF HINDOOSTAN early in the book speaks of a visit to the ancient Karli Caves near Bombay and Poona. The visitors spent the night at a neighboring cave vihara and while there, a tiger attacked. One of their companions stopped this. Next morning a disciple of a local Yogi appeared, and brought some of the hair of the tiger to them saying, as was the custom, that they deserved a portion of that, as the attacking tiger had been killed by "one who had the Word," and was a member of the visiting party. One ought to go through The SECRET DOCTRINE and draw together the quotes and the ideas of the various 7 aspects of manifestation if we desire to find out the correlations in nature and in man, as life proceeds. As to the power -- it is not physical at all but has to do with the WILL as used by a true Yogi. It would be sparingly used, and only in cases of dire necessity, and, as permitted by KARMA -- which only a YOGI would know. One might surmise that its use draws together energy at a center to create. But another correlation could draw energy to a point to obstruct or to destroy. This power is real, as for instance one find it described approximately in the sections that deal with Keely ( S D I 565-6) or the "Vrill" of Bulwer Lytton (S D I xxxv, 563) or the "Mash-Mak" of the Atlanteans (S D I 563). Mr Judge makes an oblique reference to this last in his Story: WHERE THE RISHIS WERE, Letters (W Q J ) p. 244. We find that Rider Haggard refers briefly to these things in his books: "SHE,' and "AESHA." As I understand it, while there are seven manifested (7) and 3 spiritual and supernal potencies in manifestation {as illustrated in S D I 200 Diagram, and on S D I 596 (also S D I 570-75) } only Those who are perfect in Brotherhood, and have the protection of all beings for their responsibility can use such a force. It has to be in harmony with all Nature (is this a hint as to the nature of the MACROPROSOPUS -- or, ADAM-KADMON ? -- or MAHA-VISHNU, for instance as the divine ALL -- that has to manifest to men through a "human form" however divine or gigantic ?) One might well challenge such ideas, but if we recall that the UNIVERSAL SPIRIT -- ATMAN -- splits, on manifestation, into myriad "rays", each of those animating, or rather, overshadowing the core of every being, we perceive the universal rationale for a brotherhood to unite in the life of all, the purpose of the universe in its tendency to do good to all without any partiality whatsoever. And in case the Karma of the world needs it, such a force would be used at a special conjunction in time when it is the last and necessary effort to achieve the operational change of a huge bulk of Karma. If we go through the 1st Vol. of The SECRET DOCTRINE we notice that some It occurs to me that if present man, as the Microprosopus (the "Adam of dust" or as "Arjuna" -- striving to perfect himself under Sri Krishna's tuition) we have an analogy. We, using our power to choose, impose on the myriad of atoms, molecules and cells that make up our bodies, our decisions as to food, work, rest, recreation, exercise, laziness ... And these impositions and changes, might be said to appear to them, at their level of consciousness and intelligence, as a "god-like" fiat, a ukase which they had no power to alter -- a kind of Karmic imposition, or, accident, specially when their nature and inclination, shaped by their tendencies to do otherwise, are now forced in a different direction. [Is this not a clue to the operation of Karma?] Is it not in that way that we build or change our character for "good" or "Bad"? And we, in turn, as families, communities, nations, find ourselves enclosed in a general movement, as Karmic waves of thought and desire sweep across the minds of all those involved. We can think of the way in which our weather affects us and periodical invasions by disease, or moods of elation, sorrow, joy, or despair enclose a continent for a while ... In the final analysis it has to be through a Human-Made-Divine channel -- an impartial Power that once was an ordinary man -- that Karma acts at the appropriate time. The myths, and legends in all countries show this to have happened. And those who have only evil, selfishness and vice in their hearts desire to open this secret and make it theirs. -- But the supreme Force will never be at their disposal because it unifies, protects and is always creative. In the VOICE OF THE SILENCE it speaks of the great Brotherhood of the Mahatmas and Yogis of all races past and present who unite to form the "Guardian Wall." This wall holds back some of the evil Karma that humanity has created through ignorance or perversity. [ I find 'perversity' to be a definite puzzle. Who wants to do evil and then engage others into that kind of a mess ? ] That is as I understand it. Best wishes, Dallas. ============================================ -----Original Message----- From: Ramprakash [mailto:ult_blr@vsnl.net] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:18 AM To: Subject: [bn-sd] Re: Stanza III Sloka 5 == S D I 68-9 I have a question. Is the magical Name OEAOHOO the same as the "Lost Word"? Since it refers to the Septenary Root of the universe, or, in other words, to the synthesis of the Primordial Seven Rays, to the "Father-Mother of the Gods", (Alaya-Akasa), it must be extremely potent. The Seven Primordial Rays of the Logos are the Seven Hierarchies, the Lords of the Seven sacred Planets, Spirits of the Seven Elements and of the six primary Forces of Nature synthesised by the seventh, if pronounced, it must have omnipotent effect. It must be the crown of Mantra Sakti. Of course its right pronounciation can only be with Chief Hierophants of Adept Fraternity. ===================================================== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moderator" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:22 PM Subject: [bn-sd] Stanza III Sloka 5 As we continue on with Stanza III, this next sloka expresses the fundamental truth of both existence and non-existence ie "the Non-Separateness of all that lives and has its being, whether in active or passive state." Your comments and questions are welcome. One way to actively engage in the study material offered is to look up related material in other parts of the Secret Doctrine (or other works by HPB, The Mahatma Letters etc) and bring it together here. First find the related material, then we can see if it will throw any light on the current sloka. With this in mind, what other references to terms such as "OEAOHOO", "THE ROOT", "the manifested ONE LIFE", "Father-Mother", "the SIX IN ONE" & so on, do we find in the SD? STANZA III, Sloka 5, (SD I 68-69) reproduced below, regards, ...Peter Merriott ============================= 5. THE ROOT REMAINS, THE LIGHT REMAINS, THE CURDS REMAIN, AND STILL OEAOHOO (a) IS ONE (b). (a) OEAOHOO is rendered "Father-Mother of the Gods" in the Commentaries, or the SIX IN ONE, or the septenary root from which all proceeds. All depends upon the accent given to these seven vowels, which may be pronounced as one, three, or even seven syllables by adding an e after the letter "o." This mystic name is given out, because without a thorough mastery of the triple pronunciation it remains for ever ineffectual. (b) This refers to the Non-Separateness of all that lives and has its being, whether in active or passive state. In one sense, Oeaohoo is the "Rootless Root of All"; hence, one with Parabrahmam; in another sense it is a name for the manifested ONE LIFE, the Eternal living Unity. The "Root" means, as already explained, pure knowledge (Sattva),* eternal (Nitya) unconditioned reality or SAT (Satya), whether we call it Parabrahmam or Mulaprakriti, for these are the two aspects of the ONE. The "Light" is the same Omnipresent Spiritual Ray, which has entered and now fecundated the Divine Egg, and calls cosmic matter to begin its long series of differentiations. The curds are the first differentiation, and probably refer also to that cosmic matter which is supposed to be the origin of the "Milky Way" -- the matter we know. This "matter," which, according to the revelation received from the primeval Dhyani-Buddhas, is, during the periodical sleep of the Universe, of the ultimate tenuity conceivable to the eye of the perfect Bodhisatva -- this matter, radical and cool, becomes, at the first reawakening of cosmic motion, scattered through Space; appearing, when seen from the Earth, in clusters and lumps, like curds in thin milk. These are the seeds of the future worlds, the "Star-stuff." [Footnote] ------------------------------------------------- * The original for Understanding is Sattva, which Sankara (acharya) renders antahkarana. "Refined," he says, "by sacrifices and other sanctifying operations." In the Katha, at p. 148, Sattva is said by Sankara to mean buddhi -- a common use of the word. ("The BHAGAVATGITA with The Sanatsugatiya and The Anugita," translated by Kashinath Trimbak Telang, M.A.; edited by Max Muller.) Whatever meaning various schools may give the term, Sattva is the name given among Occult students of the Aryasanga School to the dual Monad or Atma-buddhi, and Atma-buddhi on this plane corresponds to Parabrahm and Mulaprakriti on the higher plane. (SD I 68-69) =========================== For those who do not have their own copy of the Secret Doctrine, you can find this section on line at: http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-04.htm If you want to look up previous posts/messages on our earlier topics, then go to the following link. This is also a good place to change your subscription settings: http://lists.lyris.net/cgi-bin/lists.pl?enter=bn-sd From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu Nov 01 17:03:10 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Nov 2001 01:03:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 80989 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 01:03:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2001 01:03:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Nov 2001 01:03:10 -0000 Received: from pool0669.cvx4-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.148.159] helo=earthlink) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zSjU-0006kw-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 17:02:53 -0800 To: Subject: RE: [bn-basic] (no subject) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:02:21 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friend : We all. began as you have in the Pre-K, and I would consider myself as stil= l being in it. There is so much to learn. So we try to help each other with our experience. As you study you will find that THEOSOPHY always offers to levels of discovery: One is called the =93Heart Doctrine.=94 You will find it in th= e VOICE OF THE SILENCE . It deals with the moral and ethical aspect of our choosing. It is based on the fact that we all share in the ONE CENTRAL SPIRIT -- the highest and purest and the Origin of all beings. This is why Universal brotherhood is emphasized as the first Object. To grasp the meaning of the VOICE OF THE SILENCE it might be a good idea as a preliminary to read through and study the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) -- this may give you a basis from which to understand some of the statements made i= n the VOICE OF THE SILENCE -- but, in any case as you study it, if you ask questions, we will all try to find answers for you. The basic ideas of Theosophy are: 1. UNIVERSAL UNITY (Brotherhood in SPIRIT), 2. KARMA (as universal justice, mercy, education, and the urge to do =93go= od=94 to all), 3. REINCARNATION or the periodical return into a physical body of the imperishable and eternal EGO (The Spiritual MAN, which never =93dies,=94 a= nd is of unlimited Mind power) and 4. universal EVOLUTION -- in which all beings (which are Immortal in essence) -- from the Atom, to the Man, and, from the WISE to the distant STARS, are all involved. You can read the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) if you want as it is on-line at http://www.blavatsky.net. Best wishes, Dallas =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: M B---I FQ Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 5:06 AM To: Subject: [bn-basic] (no subject) Dear Sir: I subscribed to the 10 week course offered by Blavatsky Net. Does it start at a specific date? QUESTION: Yesterday I bought the book THE SOUND OF THE SILENCE. I started reading slowly, going back and forth between the quotes and the glossary. ( It coul= d be said that I am in Pre-K of Theosophy, therefore, I am not familiar with many terms -- hence the need to refer to the glossary.) I only read a few pages because sometimes I had to read the quotes several times. I feel that I am grasping the message. Would you suggest that I continue to read, or wait until I finish the basic course before I try to read on my own? A reply would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Bruni CUT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gregory@zeta.org.au Thu Nov 01 18:07:59 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: gregory@zeta.org.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Nov 2001 02:08:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 57403 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 02:07:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2001 02:07:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailman.zeta.org.au) (203.26.10.16) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Nov 2001 02:07:57 -0000 Received: from [210.23.145.166] (ppp166.dyn145.pacific.net.au [210.23.145.166]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10732 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:07:51 +1100 Message-Id: <200111020207.NAA10732@mailman.zeta.org.au> Subject: Unauthorized publication Date: Fri, 2 Nov 01 13:08:38 +1100 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable From: I was outraged to find that Dr Brigitte Muehlegger has published a number o= f papers on her =8CHistory of Theosophy=B9 web site - http//www.univie.ac= .at/~a7502210 -=20 which are extensive extracts (including whole chapters) from my Doctoral th= esis, and that she have further published papers =B3by the editor=B2 which = directly plagiarise (without acknowledgement or permission) material from m= y thesis. I note that some of my material has been published in an edited f= orm or with titles and headings not found in the original work and which di= stort and misrepresent my research and my opinions. This publication was w= ithout my permission and, indeed, against the explicit direction I gave to = Dr Muehlegger when making a copy of parts of my thesis available to her. Su= ch publication is in violation of my copyright and other intellectual prope= rty rights in the material published. I have therefore written to Dr Muehle= gger requiring that she immediately removes all material of which I am the = author and in which I hold copyright and other intellectual property rights= from her web site and refrains in future from publishing such material wit= hout my explicit permission. I have further required that the authorities o= f the University of Vienna, on whose web site the material appears, be info= rmed of this violation of my rights and confirm the withdrawal of my materi= al. I reserve all rights to pursue appropriate legal remedies against Dr Mu= ehlegger and against the University of Vienna in this matter. Dr Brendan French From eldon@theosophy.com Thu Nov 01 18:32:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Nov 2001 02:32:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 42564 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 02:32:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 2 Nov 2001 02:32:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pegasus.imagiware.com) (64.49.222.14) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Nov 2001 02:32:26 -0000 Received: from SCRIBE.theosophy.com (sc-66-75-88-32.socal.rr.com [66.75.88.32]) by pegasus.imagiware.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 659E643DF for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:32:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101180324.02307570@theosophy.net> X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 18:32:21 -0800 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: some elements of a good posting In-Reply-To: <20011101223735.11288.qmail@web13408.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Eldon B Tucker X-Yahoo-Profile: eldon_tucker I was written earlier today by someone on the list wanting to know if a certain line of research was ok to discuss on the list, when it had reached the point where the findings could be presented. It was a good question. Because there are different theosophical groups, each with their own view of history and the lives of their key leaders, we'll see people strongly liking certain discussions and others very unhappy with them. The differences are further compounded by the fact that each group teaches a slightly different version of Theosophy, but the differences aren't apparent to the new student unless he or she studies the literature from different theosophical groups. The research sounded like reasonable philosophical and scientific inquiry. We're taught to question, test out ideas for ourselves, and come to our own understanding of the philosophy. Each of us is as entitled to do so as anyone else, even if one don't stick to the traditional beliefs. As long as a subject is clearly marked in the message header, so that people can decide if they want to explore it or not before opening the message, I don't see why certain subjects wrong. Where things go wrong is when people attack others or claim to know their motives better that they do themselves. Or when people promote a general hatred or bigotry against an entire class of others. It's ok to disagree with ideas and offer better ones; it's not ok to brand the other person with some hateful term, lumping them in a group of "bad guys" that one wants to mock or condemn. Another thing may regard harassing people. Someone may not want to carry on a particular conversation. Once they've said so, it's unfair to continue to challenge them in emails to continue the undesired dialogue. Since this is supposed to be a theosophical list, it would be a good idea if there was some connection between the postings and theosophic thought. Simply linking to a url or reprint something of interest is not helpful if the connection is not apparent. An explanation of the connection usually makes things much clearer. I'd recommend that we always mention why something is of interest, when passing it on. The message gave me a change to start writing down some of my thoughts on the subject of making a "gracious space" out of the list. How about other ideas from everyone? -- Eldon At 02:37 PM 11/1/01 -0800, you wrote: >Dear Eldon, > >I am currently researching theories of Leadbeater, >especially dealing with Indigenous Australians, and >links with eugenics. My theory is that some work >undertaken during this period was highly influenced by >the contemporary thoughts of the day. My intention is >to eventually place my findings on the list. I know >some people who may affiliate themselves with >Leadbeater may become offended. Is this sort of >material likely to be banned in the future? If so I >would be greatly disappointed and it would infringe on >the freedom of speech I am sure most of us adhere to. > >Regards, >Mic Forster > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. >http://personals.yahoo.com From ramadoss@infohwy.com Thu Nov 01 18:59:11 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@infohwy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Nov 2001 02:59:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 83867 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 02:59:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2001 02:59:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO VOLTAIRE.stic.net) (204.57.118.5) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2001 02:59:11 -0000 Received: from senzar.infohwy.com ([216.198.63.107]) by VOLTAIRE.stic.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-70040U18500L11000S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:59:08 -0600 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011101203945.03674220@mail.infohiwy.net> X-Sender: senzar@mail.infohwy.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 20:52:47 -0600 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World time to review how theos-talk operates In-Reply-To: <9rscq6+ktdq@eGroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: MKRamadoss I am on several lists, all unmoderated, and everyone of them have their ups and downs in terms of traffic. There are bound to be times when things become hot and some msgs that may be seen out of line. The self policing that goes on takes care of any msgs that may be considered offensive or inappropriate and unjustly personal attack. Since not everyone can be satisfied all the time about what goes on the list, my suggestion is leave things as they are. If it is not broken let us not fix it. mkr At 08:54 PM 11/1/01 +0000, you wrote: >There have been some complaints about personal attacks on the list. >Others, primarily on another list, have observed an inconsistent >reponse by theos-talk list members. When certain subjects or >individuals are involved, I'm told, there's immediate support for >the individuals attacked. When other subjects or individuals are >involved, others pile on and magnify the attack. > >The general rule here has been no personal attacks, but in the >interest of openness and freedom of thought, the list is >unmoderated and there's been no heavy-handed policing of the >messages going out. I value that freedom and would hate to give >it up. > >We're an odd assortment of individuals, of different political, >cultural, racial, religious, and economic backgrounds. We're >presumably here -- hopefully -- because we share a common interest >in Theosophy or theosophic inquiry, and not with other, perhaps >hidden agendas (like were someone with us in order to recruit us >into their favorite religious cult or "save us from the devil" or >some other such balony). > >To date, when people have gotten out-of-hand, there often have been >other list members posting messages asking them to "shape up," or >sending them private emails to the same effect. Since this hasn't >consistently happened, I'd like to ask everyone what their thoughts >are on the subject. > >What do people think is appropriate and what is "off topic"? (This >deals with the content side of the discussions.) > >What do people think is appropriate behavior and treatment of >others? (This deals with the process side of the discussions.) > >I'd like to see what people post (and write privately to me). >Perhaps it's time to review and change the guidelines or the way >things are run. Based upon input from list members, I'll write up >what the proposed changes might be, for review by list members. > >-- Eldon Tucker > > > > From bartl@sprynet.com Thu Nov 01 19:15:51 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 2 Nov 2001 03:15:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 92699 invoked from network); 2 Nov 2001 03:15:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Nov 2001 03:15:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hall.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.60) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 2001 03:15:51 -0000 Received: from sprynet.com (nycmny1-ar4-4-43-236-094.elnk.dsl.gtei.net [4.43.236.94]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05840 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:15:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3BE2102D.392F44CF@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 22:17:01 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Re: SD Stanza III Sloka 5. == S D I 68-9 == OEAOHOO References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky X-Yahoo-Profile: bml07646 dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > > Re OEAOHOO > > OEAOHOO seems to be an expression on our physical plane of an > occult sound which, if viewed from the plane of our physical > matter consists of the potent vowel sounds [ English A E I O >