From noone@nowhere.com Mon Oct 01 10:44:32 2001 Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: message missing To: theos-talk@egroups.com From: "Message Missing" message missing From officerjenny@mindspring.com Mon Oct 01 10:44:33 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: officerjenny@mindspring.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 1 Oct 2001 17:43:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 80181 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2001 17:43:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 1 Oct 2001 17:43:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hall.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.60) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2001 17:44:32 -0000 Received: from mindspring.com (nycmny1-ar4-4-43-236-132.elnk.dsl.gtei.net [4.43.236.132]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17304 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 13:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BB8ABA7.3586EC19@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:45:11 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michele Lidofsky Jonah Goldberg writes: "Bernard Lewis, perhaps the greatest living English-language historian of the Middle East, wrote a brilliant essay eleven years ago in the Atlantic entitled "The Roots of Muslim Rage." It is the best short piece I've found on this subject to date, and I think anyone interested in this topic should read it. Lewis (also) shows that while Israel is obviously unpopular in the Arab world, it may not be for the reasons so many knee-jerk Israel foes believe....." An important set of articles giving a valuable brief synopsis of East/West history and cultural conflict. Well worth reading. http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/90sep/rage.htm Michele From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Oct 01 12:10:36 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 1 Oct 2001 19:10:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 30443 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2001 19:10:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2001 19:10:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.65) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2001 19:10:35 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0462.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.153.207]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with SMTP id f91JATT05105; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:10:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] Table... Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:10:30 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: Monday, October 01, 2001 Dear Friend: A warning ought to precede every positing: Read, study, compare, find out if it is universal and impersonal. Use only if you find out it is useful and true. All "tables" or "Statements" are opinions advanced for our independent consideration. They were or are of use to the students who originate and publish them. It is like saying: Here is a house. Here are doors and windows to let in the air and light and to use to enter or to leave. The use of those facilities are up to you who become the habitants. So are all ideas when presented to an active mind. It is up t each individual to see if they provide additional insight on problems of personal or universal significance. No one ought to adopt anything without careful scrutiny. Best wishes, Dallas ======================== -----Original Message----- From: Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 7:03 AM To: Subject: [SECRET DOCTRINE study: Table... Dear Friend: It is quite possible to dig up a number of tables that claim description and precedence over those provided to us by the Mahatmas through H.P.Blavatsky. Those were provided AFTER H P B's death -- so she had no opportunity under Karma to write about them. Apparently one of the invariable laws of occultism is that no "prophet" or "messenger" may break the walls of silence that veil the present EGO and its after-life condition from imposture, criticism, and claims of authority made after the physical personality that was used died. The ORIGINAL TEACHINGS still stand as a monument to what was actually taught and said. If those are not studied with great care the arguments that may be offered at later dates cannot be verified or reported on with accuracy. We are in such a position in regard to information about planes or states that are claimed to be earlier, different or superior to what is called in philosophical metaphysics in ancient India: PARABRAHM. CUT From dalval14@earthlink.net Mon Oct 01 12:10:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 1 Oct 2001 19:08:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 50170 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2001 19:08:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 1 Oct 2001 19:08:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.65) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2001 19:10:39 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0462.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.153.207]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with SMTP id f91JAMT03648; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:10:22 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: RE: [bn-basic] Prayer from a theosophical point of view Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:10:17 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: Monday, October 01, 2001 Re: PRAYER and PRAYERS Dear Rodolfo: Would it not be a good idea to ask ourselves what is PRAYER? 1. What is a Prayer? A request, a demand, a --- what ? 2. To WHOM OR TO WHAT is it to be addressed? 3. Does it request special ( i.e., personal), or general (i.e., impersonal and universal) attention? Do we actually believe that GOD does not know what is going on, and has had no hand in its planning and development? Is it not an impertinence of ours to try and tell Him that we are dissatisfied with His management? 4. What exactly is a "faith?" Does it mean a reasoned set of propositions concerning the rules and government of our World and the Kosmos? Does it mean only some specific rites and regulations relating to a particular "faith?" Does it relate solely to our "faith" or doe the views of God and "His works" include our little earth lost in the infinitudes of vast space? 5. What is a "belief?" Is it a statement of certain well ascertainable "facts in nature" that we can inquire into, investigate and prove? [ I mean like the rules of Mathematics, chemistry, physics, astronomy, engineering, etc... ] Or, does it consist in certain dogmas and statements which we are prohibited, or discouraged from investigating? Are those stated logically or not? And how is it possible, if a portion of God is also within us, to tell us that we may not inquire? Is it an expression of KNOWLEDGE or of ignorance ? 6. Since every human being is called and designated a "Child of God" then, regardless of how the "God" is named by us, IT is UNIVERSAL, IMPERSONAL, SUPPORTIVE OF LIFE, the creator and sustainer of all things as they have been and now are? Why should any one be excluded from the universal GOD principle? Do catastrophes occur because of Karma? Are all who are involved receiving some effect due to their Karma? 7. Is "GOD" a Person or a Power that is universal. ? If the UNIVERSE (and our world and our own physical being) are the "body of God manifest," then how can anything occur which has not had God's prior attention and sanction? Is Karma not an expressions of "As you sow, so shall you reap." -- that statement is found in every religion. Not everyone trusts it, or believes in it, and many hope to "escape" its effects returning to them. 8. Are we debarred from inquiring into the purposes, objectives, and methods of God's work? After all GOD IS WITHIN US to some extent, so it is not impertinent or sacrilegious to make such an honest inquiry. Should not that "Ray" of God within each of us be able to answer our mental inquiry? How does one become wise unless it is through continued inquiry into God's ways? 9. Is our view (and that of our :belief") so vast as to include the WHOLE UNIVERSE ( 50 billion years old, and an immeasurable size) with our "personal God's purview ? Is it possible that our view of the Power of our Earthly God is not UNIVERSAL ? [ As an analogy, it is like a single citizen in our nation asking if the rules and regulations of his existence are identical with those of a citizen of INDIA, or of Patagonia -- the answer would be: "No, not exactly, but they might be similar." When it comes to Prayer, let us see what the original teachings given to us by H.P.Blavatsky say: If we use the INDEX to the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) we find a number of interesting entries: p. 10 mediation is unuttered prayer; ( But, what is meditation? ) 66 verbal and will prayer ( What is the difference between "word" and "thought?" ) 67 Father in Heaven -- its esoteric meaning ( Is this not the God within ?) 68-70 an occult process 70-1 prayer and action ( does not a thought and a choosing precede all acts ?) 72 prayer does not teach or encourage self-reliance ( Why is self-reliance essential?) 198 Karma cannot be turned aside by prayer. ( How does the equity of KARMA work?) >From the INDEX to The SECRET DOCTRINE SECRET DOCTRINE I p. 280fn to Father in Secret ( True worship ) 416, 467-9 Prayer can be BLACK MAGIC if used personally for self-benefit, or for revenge against another We have to always remember that in our innermost essence we are all IMMORTAL BEINGS. No matter how horrible, or how peaceful is the departure of the Inner spirit from its body, the even is regulated by the personal Karma of the EGO, the Spiritual Mind being that we are in our essence. We also have to remember that Nature, (GOD, the UNIVERSE) does not work haphazardly. It runs under laws which include all beings who have an affinity for certain events, peaceful or cataclysmic. But there are some sequences and causes which we cannot determine as of origin in this lifetime -- they come from our past lives, and represent some unsettle balance which is now being adjusted. This is not extending "cold comfort." But is a warm and heart-felt way in which to give true comfort to any one who is closely affected -- the continuity of the glorious SPIRIT IN MAN, the continuity of life's efforts to become wise, the fact that Karma adjusts all causes to their effects. There is no question that the world has receive a violent "awakening." How many will begin to seek in their own lives for potential causes that made them participate near by or remotely in this? Is this not far better than making prayers to a questionable "Personal god" who may or may not respond in the way we hope may happen, but who never explains? I hope this proves valuable, Dallas ===================================== -----Original Message----- From: Rodolfo Guzman Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 4:29 PM To: Subject: Prayer from a theosophical point of view Dear Friends: Since at this time of crisis millions are turning to prayer within their respective faith traditions, myself included, I am interested to know how the members of the theosophical community regard the subject of prayer. I am aware of the views of HP Blavatsky and, although they seem antagonistic to certain prayer traditions, this misunderstanding seems to me to be mainly skin deep, since many of her views are in harmony with many aspects of prayer practiced in the different faith traditions, especially in their more mystical or liberal forms. I am extremely interested about the different ideas and opinions our website members may have on this matter. I will not comment much further since I am new to the theosophical tradition and wish to know more about the opinions of more advanced students. R--- G--- From ringding@blinx.de Mon Oct 01 12:16:56 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 1 Oct 2001 19:16:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 60525 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2001 19:16:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Oct 2001 19:16:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2001 19:16:55 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f91JGoc25324 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 21:16:50 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from ringding (cppp-151.blinx.de [62.96.222.151]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id f91JGnm25316 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 21:16:49 +0200 Message-ID: <000201c14aad$d83600e0$97de603e@ringding> To: References: <3BB7D217.C3A5DF0E@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Where are the Masters? Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 16:24:06 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" Dallas: The main point is that those who are truly WISE never attach themselves or endorse any temporal ORGANIZATION. Bart: That is a statement trying to convince on an emotional level, equivalent to, say, "only an idiot would believe what you just said." Frank: Good to hear that the ULT now switches over to Krishamurti. Furthermore I have heard theosophists say that the physical world is unimportant and it's the spirit what counts. To make that practical I have decided now to spring from the bridge to get my soul freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee From Pendragon@fix.net Mon Oct 01 13:01:57 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: pendragon@fix.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 1 Oct 2001 20:01:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 28265 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2001 20:01:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Oct 2001 20:01:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snfc21.pbi.net) (206.13.28.241) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2001 20:01:54 -0000 Received: from istvanba ([63.196.194.150]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GKJ00J9JMA51A@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net>; Mon, 01 Oct 2001 13:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:57:13 -0700 Subject: Letter by Tamim Ansary, an Afghan-American woman To: Message-id: <007501c14ab3$557c1080$96c2c43f@istvanba> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal From: Pendragon This letter is by Tamim Ansary, an Afghan-American woman and writer living in the US. Please forward to every one you know. ***** Dear Friends, Yesterday I heard a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage," and he asked, "What else can we do? What is your suggestion?" Minutes later I heard a TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about these issues especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's been going on over there. So I want to share a few thoughts with anyone who will listen. I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I fervently wish to see those monsters punished. But the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who captured Afghanistan in 1997 and have been holding the country in bondage ever since. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a master plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would love for someone to eliminate the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country. I guarantee it. Some say, if that's the case, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban themselves? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, damaged, and incapacitated. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. Millions of Afghans are widows of the approximately two million men killed during the war with the Soviets. And the Taliban has been executing these women for being women and have buried some of their opponents alive in mass graves. The soil of Afghanistan is littered with land mines and almost all the farms have been destroyed. The Afghan people have tried to overthrow the Taliban. They haven't been able to. We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble with that scheme is, it's already been done. The Soviets took care of it . Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? There is no infrastructure. Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only land in the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. (They have already, I hear.) Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time. So what else can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. I think that when people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" many of them are thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. They are thinking about overcoming moral qualms about killing innocent people. But it's the belly to die not kill that's actually on the table. Americans will die in a land war to get Bin Laden. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks. To get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. The invasion approach is a flirtation with global war between Islam and the West. And that is Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants and why he did this thing. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. At the moment, of course, "Islam" as such does not exist. There are Muslims and there are Muslim countries, but no such political entity as Islam. Bin Laden believes that if he can get a war started, he can constitute this entity and he'd be running it. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in Muslim lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong about winning, in the end the west would probably overcome--whatever that would mean in such a war; but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden yes, but anyone else? I don't have a solution. But I do believe that suffering and poverty are the soil in which terrorism grows. Bin Laden and his cohorts want to bait us into creating more such soil, so they and their kind can flourish. We can't let him do that. That's my humble opinion. Tamim Ansary From compiler@wisdomworld.org Mon Oct 01 13:42:05 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 1 Oct 2001 20:42:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 51094 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2001 20:42:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 1 Oct 2001 20:42:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com) (24.0.95.85) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2001 20:42:01 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([65.8.44.129]) by femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011001204201.QNXT27487.femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com@wisdomworld.org>; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 13:42:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3BB8E324.636C509@wisdomworld.org> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:41:57 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, basic@blavatsky.net Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-basic] Prayer from a theosophical point of view References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Compiler The first two articles in this 9-part series, entitled MISUNDERSTOOD BIBLICAL TRADITIONS, are on "Prayer", and may be useful to everyone: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/MisunderstoodBiblicalTraditions/index.html If the long link ends up broken on either of the web sites being posted to, you will find the series in the "Additional Articles" index page (in the CHRISTIANITY IN THE "LIGHT OF THEOSOPHY" section). John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: Wisdom World web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html The Index page of the Introductory, "Setting the Stage" book: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html The page where "Additional" articles are slowly being added: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html ------- dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > Monday, October 01, 2001 > > Re: PRAYER and PRAYERS > > Dear Rodolfo: > > Would it not be a good idea to ask ourselves what is PRAYER? > > 1. What is a Prayer? A request, a demand, a --- what ? > > 2. To WHOM OR TO WHAT is it to be addressed? > > 3. Does it request special ( i.e., personal), or general (i.e., > impersonal and universal) attention? Do we actually believe > that GOD does not know what is going on, and has had no hand in > its planning and development? Is it not an impertinence of ours > to try and tell Him that we are dissatisfied with His management? > > 4. What exactly is a "faith?" Does it mean a reasoned set of > propositions concerning the rules and government of our World and > the Kosmos? Does it mean only some specific rites and > regulations relating to a particular "faith?" Does it relate > solely to our "faith" or doe the views of God and "His works" > include our little earth lost in the infinitudes of vast space? > > 5. What is a "belief?" Is it a statement of certain well > ascertainable "facts in nature" that we can inquire into, > investigate and prove? [ I mean like the rules of Mathematics, > chemistry, physics, astronomy, engineering, etc... ] Or, does it > consist in certain dogmas and statements which we are prohibited, > or discouraged from investigating? Are those stated logically or > not? And how is it possible, if a portion of God is also within > us, to tell us that we may not inquire? Is it an expression of > KNOWLEDGE or of ignorance ? > > 6. Since every human being is called and designated a "Child of > God" then, regardless of how the "God" is named by us, IT is > UNIVERSAL, IMPERSONAL, SUPPORTIVE OF LIFE, the creator and > sustainer of all things as they have been and now are? Why > should any one be excluded from the universal GOD principle? Do > catastrophes occur because of Karma? Are all who are involved > receiving some effect due to their Karma? > > 7. Is "GOD" a Person or a Power that is universal. ? If the > UNIVERSE (and our world and our own physical being) are the "body > of God manifest," then how can anything occur which has not had > God's prior attention and sanction? Is Karma not an expressions > of "As you sow, so shall you reap." -- that statement is found > in every religion. Not everyone trusts it, or believes in it, > and many hope to "escape" its effects returning to them. > > 8. Are we debarred from inquiring into the purposes, objectives, > and methods of God's work? After all GOD IS WITHIN US to some > extent, so it is not impertinent or sacrilegious to make such an > honest inquiry. Should not that "Ray" of God within each of us > be able to answer our mental inquiry? How does one become wise > unless it is through continued inquiry into God's ways? > > 9. Is our view (and that of our :belief") so vast as to include > the WHOLE UNIVERSE ( 50 billion years old, and an immeasurable > size) with our "personal God's purview ? Is it possible that our > view of the Power of our Earthly God is not UNIVERSAL ? [ As an > analogy, it is like a single citizen in our nation asking if the > rules and regulations of his existence are identical with those > of a citizen of INDIA, or of Patagonia -- the answer would be: > "No, not exactly, but they might be similar." > > When it comes to Prayer, let us see what the original teachings > given to us by H.P.Blavatsky say: > > If we use the INDEX to the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (HPB) we find a > number of interesting entries: > > p. 10 mediation is unuttered prayer; ( But, what is > meditation? ) > 66 verbal and will prayer ( What is the difference between > "word" and "thought?" ) > 67 Father in Heaven -- its esoteric meaning ( Is this not the > God within ?) > 68-70 an occult process > 70-1 prayer and action ( does not a thought and a choosing > precede all acts ?) > 72 prayer does not teach or encourage self-reliance ( Why is > self-reliance essential?) > 198 Karma cannot be turned aside by prayer. ( How does the > equity of KARMA work?) > > >From the INDEX to The SECRET DOCTRINE > > SECRET DOCTRINE I > > p. 280fn to Father in Secret ( True worship ) > > 416, 467-9 Prayer can be BLACK MAGIC if used personally for > self-benefit, > or for revenge against another > > We have to always remember that in our innermost essence we are > all IMMORTAL BEINGS. No matter how horrible, or how peaceful is > the departure of the Inner spirit from its body, the even is > regulated by the personal Karma of the EGO, the Spiritual Mind > being that we are in our essence. > > We also have to remember that Nature, (GOD, the UNIVERSE) does > not work haphazardly. It runs under laws which include all > beings who have an affinity for certain events, peaceful or > cataclysmic. But there are some sequences and causes which we > cannot determine as of origin in this lifetime -- they come from > our past lives, and represent some unsettle balance which is now > being adjusted. > > This is not extending "cold comfort." But is a warm and > heart-felt way in which to give true comfort to any one who is > closely affected -- the continuity of the glorious SPIRIT IN MAN, > the continuity of life's efforts to become wise, the fact that > Karma adjusts all causes to their effects. There is no question > that the world has receive a violent "awakening." How many will > begin to seek in their own lives for potential causes that made > them participate near by or remotely in this? > > Is this not far better than making prayers to a questionable > "Personal god" who may or may not respond in the way we hope may > happen, but who never explains? > > I hope this proves valuable, > > Dallas > > ===================================== > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rodolfo Guzman > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 4:29 PM > To: > Subject: Prayer from a theosophical point of view > > Dear Friends: > > Since at this time of crisis millions are turning to prayer > within their > respective faith traditions, myself included, I am interested to > know how > the members of the theosophical community regard the subject of > prayer. I > am aware of the views of HP Blavatsky and, although they seem > antagonistic > to certain prayer traditions, this misunderstanding seems to me > to be > mainly skin deep, since many of her views are in harmony with > many aspects > of prayer practiced in the different faith traditions, especially > in their > more mystical or liberal forms. > > I am extremely interested about the different ideas and opinions > our website members may have on this matter. I will not comment > much further since I am new to the theosophical > tradition and wish to know more about the opinions of more > advanced students. > > R--- G--- > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From officerjenny@mindspring.com Mon Oct 01 13:57:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: officerjenny@mindspring.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 1 Oct 2001 20:55:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 10459 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2001 20:55:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 1 Oct 2001 20:55:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp10.atl.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.246) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2001 20:57:28 -0000 Received: from mindspring.com (nycmny1-ar4-4-43-236-132.elnk.dsl.gtei.net [4.43.236.132]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20099 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 16:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BB8D8DE.F9044E2B@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 16:58:06 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: To the Anti-War Demonstrators Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Michele Lidofsky Folks - Here's an interesting essay currently being run in campus newspapers by former Marxist organizer David Horowitz: Michele An Open Letter to the "Anti-War" Demonstrators: Think Twice Before You Bring The War Home By David Horowitz FrontPageMagazine.com | September 27, 2001 URL: http://www.frontpagemag.com/horowitzsnotepad/2001/hn09-27-01p I AM a former anti-war activist who helped to organize the first campus demonstration against the war in Vietnam at the University of California, Berkeley in 1962. I appeal to all those young people who participated in "anti-war" demonstrations on 150 college campuses this week, to think again and not to join an "anti-war" effort against America’s coming battle with international terrorism. The hindsight of history has shown that our efforts in the 1960s to end the war in Vietnam had two practical effects. The first was to prolong the war itself. Every testimony by North Vietnamese generals in the postwar years has affirmed that they knew they could not defeat the United States on the battlefield, and that they counted on the division of our people at home to win the war for them. The Vietcong forces we were fighting in South Vietnam were destroyed in 1968. In other words, most of the war and most of the casualties in the war occurred because the dictatorship of North Vietnam counted on the fact Americans would give up the battle rather than pay the price necessary to win it. This is what happened. The blood of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, and tens of thousands of Americans, is on the hands of the anti-waractivists who prolonged the struggle and gave victory to the Communists. The second effect of the war was to surrender South Vietnam to the forces of Communism. This resulted in the imposition of a monstrous police state, the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent South Vietnamese, the incarceration in "re-education camps" of hundreds of thousands more, and a quarter of a century of abject poverty imposed by crackpot Marxist economic plans, which continue to this day. This, too, is the responsibility of the so-called anti-war movement of the 1960s. I say "so-called anti-war movement," because while many Americans were sincerely troubled by America’s war effort, the organizers of this movement were Marxists and radicals who supported a Communist victory and an American defeat. Today the same people and their youthful followers are organizing the campus demonstrations against America’s effort to defend its citizens against the forces of international terrorism and anti-American hatred, responsible for the September attacks. I know, better than most, the importance of protecting freedom of speech and the right of citizens to dissent. But I also know better than most, that there is a difference between honest dissent and malevolent hate, between criticism of national policy, and sabotage of the nation’s defenses. In the 1960s and 1970s, the tolerance of anti-American hatreds was so high, that the line between dissent and treason was eventually erased. Along with thousands of other New Leftists, I was one who crossed the line between dissent and actual treason. (I have written an account of these matters in my autobiography, Radical Son). I did so for what I thought were the noblest of reasons: to advance the cause of "social justice" and "peace." I have lived to see how wrong I was and how much damage we did – especially to those whose cause we claimed to embrace, the peasants of Indo-China who suffered grievously from our support for the Communist enemy. I came to see how precious are the freedoms and opportunities afforded by America to the poorest and most humble of its citizens, and how rare its virtues are in the world at large. If I have one regret from my radical years, it is that this country was too tolerant towards the treason of its enemies within. If patriotic Americans had been more vigilant in the defense of their country, if they had called things by their right names, if they had confronted us with the seriousness of our attacks, they might have caught the attention of those of us who were well-meaning but utterly misguided. And they might have stopped us in our tracks. This appeal is for those of you who are out there today attacking your country, full of your own self-righteousness, but who one day might also live to regret what you have done. David Horowitz is editor-in-chief of FrontPageMagazine.com and president of the Center for the Study of Popular Culture. From dennw3k@earthlink.net Mon Oct 01 16:34:45 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dennw3k@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 1 Oct 2001 23:34:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 35909 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2001 23:34:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Oct 2001 23:34:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.74) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2001 23:34:44 -0000 Received: from u7k5a4 (1Cust199.tnt16.lax3.da.uu.net [63.23.97.199]) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with SMTP id f91NYgC02134 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 16:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000201c14ace$337c7f40$c761173f@u7k5a4> To: References: <000801c1493b$4ae05b00$100aa8c0@nos> Subject: Re: Theos-World Fwd: Chomsky and Farrakhan responses to WTC911 Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 14:26:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "Dennis Kier" ----- Original Message ----- From: nos To: Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 4:05 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World Fwd: Chomsky and Farrakhan responses to WTC911 >>>>>> > Anyone got a source for Farrakhans supposed claim? > > BTW, HPB says you shouldn't keep pets.... > > > > Cheers > > #'s You REALLY are stretching things there quite a bit, aren't you? Could you give a reference - or why you believe that she said that? What I find is in the H.P.BLAVATSKY COLLECTED WRITINGS, VOLUME IX 1888. In an article starting on page 155, "Practical Occultism, Important to students", from Lucifer, Vol. II, No. 8, April, 1888, pp. 150-154, -5 pages into the article is the following: "8. A Lanoo (disciple) has to dread external living influence alone (magnetic emanations from living creatures). For this reason while at one with all, in his inner nature, he must take care to separate his outer (external) body from every foreign influence: none must drink out of, or eat in his cup but himself. He must avoid bodily contact (i.e., being touched or touch) with a human, as with animal being. [No pet animals are permitted and it is forbidden even to touch certain trees and plants. A disciple has to live, so to say, in his own atmosphere in order to individualize it for occult purposes.]" She doesn't say which plants you should not touch in the rest of the article. So, if you are not a formal "disciple", it shouldn't matter whether you keep a pet. You will probably recall that when she was in Egypt, she had a monkey, and a cat. When she moved, she sold the monkey, and the cat ran away. >From the forgoing, I would conclude that she did not say that you, the general public, should not keep a pet. Cheers Dennis From nos@granite.net.au Mon Oct 01 19:20:20 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nos@granite.net.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 02:20:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 74961 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 02:20:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 02:20:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.granite.net.au) (203.132.126.6) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 02:20:16 -0000 Received: from nos (victor56k-21.granite.net.au [203.38.211.84]) by mail.granite.net.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24679 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:53:22 +0930 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:54:04 +0930 Message-ID: <000801c14ae9$4f169540$100aa8c0@nos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2605 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <3BB8ABA7.3586EC19@mindspring.com> From: "nos" HI Michele, Thanks for the Link - I'm working through it now - I'll get back to you with my thoughts. Have you read any Malcolm Booker? He is perhaps my main source of political commentary on middle eastern situations. We studied Iraq from his POV at University and it has perhaps moulded my own beliefs the most. Regards Nos (not ONLY sarcastic!) ;) -----Original Message----- From: Michele Lidofsky [mailto:officerjenny@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2001 3:15 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... Jonah Goldberg writes: "Bernard Lewis, perhaps the greatest living English-language historian of the Middle East, wrote a brilliant essay eleven years ago in the Atlantic entitled "The Roots of Muslim Rage." It is the best short piece I've found on this subject to date, and I think anyone interested in this topic should read it. Lewis (also) shows that while Israel is obviously unpopular in the Arab world, it may not be for the reasons so many knee-jerk Israel foes believe....." An important set of articles giving a valuable brief synopsis of East/West history and cultural conflict. Well worth reading. http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/90sep/rage.htm Michele Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From officerjenny@mindspring.com Mon Oct 01 19:36:03 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: officerjenny@mindspring.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 02:36:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 36540 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 02:36:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 02:36:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mclean.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.57) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 02:36:02 -0000 Received: from mindspring.com (nycmny1-ar4-4-43-236-132.elnk.dsl.gtei.net [4.43.236.132]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA11726 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BB92838.EE448AD2@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 22:36:40 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... References: <000801c14ae9$4f169540$100aa8c0@nos> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michele Lidofsky nos wrote: > Thanks for the Link - I'm working through it now - I'll get back to you > with my thoughts. I'll be interested to hear your comments, send 'em along... > Have you read any Malcolm Booker? He is perhaps my > main source of political commentary on middle eastern situations. We > studied Iraq from his POV at University and it has perhaps moulded my > own beliefs the most. No, I haven't read Booker, but I'll look him up on a search engine tonight after I finish my mail, and check his work out. I try to read as many commentators as possible (of all persuasions) before coming to my personal conclusions. > Regards > > Nos > > (not ONLY sarcastic!) ;) glad to hear that, nos! Best, Michele From nos@granite.net.au Mon Oct 01 20:25:25 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nos@granite.net.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 03:25:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 87494 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 03:25:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 03:25:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.granite.net.au) (203.132.126.6) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 03:25:20 -0000 Received: from nos (victor56k-21.granite.net.au [203.38.211.84]) by mail.granite.net.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26213 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:58:37 +0930 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World To the Anti-War Demonstrators Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:59:19 +0930 Message-ID: <000d01c14af2$6c66c4e0$100aa8c0@nos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2605 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <3BB8D8DE.F9044E2B@mindspring.com> From: "nos" Patriotism...Nationalism.... The anti-thesis of theosophy. Fortunately MOST of the youth see through MOST of it. Are you for or against the War with China fought in Afghanistan? Namaste Novus ordo seclorum -----Original Message----- From: Michele Lidofsky [mailto:officerjenny@mindspring.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2001 6:28 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World To the Anti-War Demonstrators Folks -=20 Here's an interesting essay currently being run in campus=20 newspapers by former Marxist organizer David Horowitz: Michele An Open Letter to the "Anti-War" Demonstrators: Think Twice=20 Before You Bring The War Home By David Horowitz=20 FrontPageMagazine.com | September 27, 2001 URL: http://www.frontpagemag.com/horowitzsnotepad/2001/hn09-27-01p=20 =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 I AM a former anti-war activist who helped to organize the=20 first campus demonstration against the war in Vietnam at the=20 University of California, Berkeley in 1962. I appeal to all=20 those young people who participated in "anti-war"=20 demonstrations on 150 college campuses this week, to think=20 again and not to join an "anti-war" effort against America=92s=20 coming battle with international terrorism.=20 The hindsight of history has shown that our efforts in the=20 1960s to end the war in Vietnam had two practical effects. The=20 first was to prolong the war itself. Every testimony by North=20 Vietnamese generals in the postwar years has affirmed that they=20 knew they could not defeat the United States on the=20 battlefield, and that they counted on the division of our=20 people at home to win the war for them. The Vietcong forces we=20 were fighting in South Vietnam were destroyed in 1968. In other=20 words, most of the war and most of the casualties in the war=20 occurred because the dictatorship of North Vietnam counted on=20 the fact Americans would give up the battle rather than pay the=20 price necessary to win it. This is what happened. The blood of=20 hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese, and tens of thousands of=20 Americans, is on the hands of the anti-waractivists who=20 prolonged the struggle and gave victory to the Communists. The second effect of the war was to surrender South Vietnam to=20 the forces of Communism. This resulted in the imposition of a=20 monstrous police state, the murder of hundreds of thousands of=20 innocent South Vietnamese, the incarceration in "re-education=20 camps" of hundreds of thousands more, and a quarter of a=20 century of abject poverty imposed by crackpot Marxist economic=20 plans, which continue to this day. This, too, is the=20 responsibility of the so-called anti-war movement of the 1960s. I say "so-called anti-war movement," because while many=20 Americans were sincerely troubled by America=92s war effort, the=20 organizers of this movement were Marxists and radicals who=20 supported a Communist victory and an American defeat. Today the=20 same people and their youthful followers are organizing the=20 campus demonstrations against America=92s effort to defend its=20 citizens against the forces of international terrorism and=20 anti-American hatred, responsible for the September attacks. I know, better than most, the importance of protecting freedom=20 of speech and the right of citizens to dissent. But I also know=20 better than most, that there is a difference between honest=20 dissent and malevolent hate, between criticism of national=20 policy, and sabotage of the nation=92s defenses. In the 1960s and=20 1970s, the tolerance of anti-American hatreds was so high, that=20 the line between dissent and treason was eventually erased.=20 Along with thousands of other New Leftists, I was one who=20 crossed the line between dissent and actual treason. (I have=20 written an account of these matters in my autobiography,=20 Radical Son). I did so for what I thought were the noblest of=20 reasons: to advance the cause of "social justice" and "peace."=20 I have lived to see how wrong I was and how much damage we did=20 =96 especially to those whose cause we claimed to embrace, the=20 peasants of Indo-China who suffered grievously from our support=20 for the Communist enemy. I came to see how precious are the=20 freedoms and opportunities afforded by America to the poorest=20 and most humble of its citizens, and how rare its virtues are=20 in the world at large. If I have one regret from my radical years, it is that this=20 country was too tolerant towards the treason of its enemies=20 within. If patriotic Americans had been more vigilant in the=20 defense of their country, if they had called things by their=20 right names, if they had confronted us with the seriousness of=20 our attacks, they might have caught the attention of those of=20 us who were well-meaning but utterly misguided. And they might=20 have stopped us in our tracks.=20 This appeal is for those of you who are out there today=20 attacking your country, full of your own self-righteousness,=20 but who one day might also live to regret what you have done.=20 David Horowitz is editor-in-chief of FrontPageMagazine.com and=20 president of the Center for the Study of Popular Culture. =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 From leonmaurer@aol.com Mon Oct 01 21:05:47 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 04:04:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 70284 invoked by uid 0); 2 Oct 2001 04:03:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 88358 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2001 07:25:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.224 with QMQP; 1 Oct 2001 07:25:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m08.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.163) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2001 07:27:34 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.7.) id r.116.5733404 (30963) for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 03:27:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <116.5733404.28e974de@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 03:27:26 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Where are the Masters? To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Did you take Dal's statement personally? And, is your statement an even more emotional level argument (if his was so) to defend your own membership in a "temporal organization"? In any case, why would Dal have to use an emotional level statement to convince anyone of what the Masters, Buddha, Krishna, Christ, et al, demonstrated or implied that they believed? Isn't that what theosophy teaches fundamentally -- to detach oneself from the forms of this world -- be "in the world and not of the world," so to speak? So, why don't you discuss the truth of the statement or ask a question of you disagree rather than pick on the author's means of saying it? That's not very wise from a theosophical point of view. But, does that make you an idiot? I'm sure we all know a lot of very intelligent but not so wise people. Does that make them idiots? LHM In a message dated 09/30/01 10:18:08 PM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: >dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: >> The main point is that those who are truly WISE never attach themselves >>or endorse any temporal ORGANIZATION. > > That is a statement trying to convince on an emotional level, >equivalent to, say, "only an idiot would believe what you just said." > > Bart Lidofsky From officerjenny@mindspring.com Mon Oct 01 21:40:58 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: officerjenny@mindspring.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 04:40:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 90224 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 04:40:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 04:40:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp10.atl.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.246) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 04:40:57 -0000 Received: from mindspring.com (nycmny1-ar4-4-43-236-102.elnk.dsl.gtei.net [4.43.236.102]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02106 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 00:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BB94580.7B90C46E@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:41:36 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World To the Anti-War Demonstrators References: <000d01c14af2$6c66c4e0$100aa8c0@nos> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michele Lidofsky nos wrote: > Patriotism...Nationalism.... The anti-thesis of theosophy. > > Fortunately MOST of the youth see through MOST of it. "Be true, be loyal to your pledges, to your sacred duty, to your country, to your own conscience". K.H. "You pride yourself on not being a patriot - I DO NOT - for, in learning to love one's own country one but learns to love humanity the more". K.H. Further: "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. ..... I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honor than that she should in a cowardly manner become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor." Gandhi, Young India, August 11, 1920 "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." Gandhi (in his autobiography) "My Experiments with Truth" Michele From nos@granite.net.au Mon Oct 01 23:40:27 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nos@granite.net.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 06:40:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 84208 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 06:40:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 06:40:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.granite.net.au) (203.132.126.6) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 06:40:25 -0000 Received: from nos (victor56k-21.granite.net.au [203.38.211.84]) by mail.granite.net.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA30727 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:13:46 +0930 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:14:29 +0930 Message-ID: <002701c14b0d$b0567a40$100aa8c0@nos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2605 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <3BB92838.EE448AD2@mindspring.com> From: "nos" Michele - Interesting article basically re-iterates the accepted establishment views and history - Ignores many major points to simplify a a supposedly simple moral argument. As the author doesn't 'appreciate' theosophical history there is little point debating it. It=92s a fluff piece suitable for People. I've copied some selected quotes over regarding women because I've noted how the media is using the treatement of women in muslim countries as a moral sweetener : The third -- the last straw -- was the challenge to his mastery in his own house, from emancipated women and rebellious children. It was too much to endure, and the outbreak of rage against these alien, infidel, and incomprehensible forces that had subverted his dominance, disrupted his society, and finally violated the sanctuary of his home was inevitable. The accusations are familiar. We of the West are accused of sexism, racism, and imperialism, institutionalized in patriarchy and slavery, tyranny and exploitation. To these charges, and to others as heinous, we have no option but to plead guilty -- not as Americans, nor yet as Westerners, but simply as human beings, as members of the human race. In none of these sins are we the only sinners, and in some of them we are very far from being the worst. The treatment of women in the Western world, and more generally in Christendom, has always been unequal and often oppressive, but even at its worst it was rather better than the rule of polygamy and concubinage that has otherwise been the almost universal lot of womankind on this planet. How do you view the use of women as a tactical tool in the manipulation of populations opinions? Next overdose soon.... -----Original Message----- From: Michele Lidofsky [mailto:officerjenny@mindspring.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2001 12:07 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is=20 NOT to Blame... nos wrote: > Thanks for the Link - I'm working through it now - I'll get back to=20 > you with my thoughts. I'll be interested to hear your comments, send 'em along... > Have you read any Malcolm Booker? He is perhaps my > main source of political commentary on middle eastern situations. We=20 > studied Iraq from his POV at University and it has perhaps moulded my=20 > own beliefs the most. No, I haven't read Booker, but I'll look him up on a search=20 engine tonight after I finish my mail, and check his work out. I try to read as many commentators as possible (of all=20 persuasions) before coming to my personal conclusions. > Regards >=20 > Nos >=20 > (not ONLY sarcastic!) ;) glad to hear that, nos! Best, Michele =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 From alpha@dircon.co.uk Tue Oct 02 04:00:35 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: alpha@dircon.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 10:58:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 4430 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 10:58:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 10:58:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailhost1.dircon.co.uk) (194.112.32.65) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 11:00:34 -0000 Received: from default (th-en134-230.pool.dircon.co.uk [194.112.53.230]) by mailhost1.dircon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA38278 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:00:32 +0100 (BST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:03:03 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <000801c14ae9$4f169540$100aa8c0@nos> From: "Tony" nos: <<>> Isn't it belief that is the evil? Piloting a plane into peoples beliefs (the real materialism) will not bring those beliefs down, or render them harmless. Wisdom (rather than belief) is something we can all aspire to. And that aspiration can help in crushing out beliefs (ignorance). The curse of humanity. Tony -----Original Message----- From: nos [mailto:nos@granite.net.au] Sent: 2 October 2001 3:24 am To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... HI Michele, Thanks for the Link - I'm working through it now - I'll get back to you with my thoughts. Have you read any Malcolm Booker? He is perhaps my main source of political commentary on middle eastern situations. We studied Iraq from his POV at University and it has perhaps moulded my own beliefs the most. Regards Nos (not ONLY sarcastic!) ;) -----Original Message----- From: Michele Lidofsky [mailto:officerjenny@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2001 3:15 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... Jonah Goldberg writes: "Bernard Lewis, perhaps the greatest living English-language historian of the Middle East, wrote a brilliant essay eleven years ago in the Atlantic entitled "The Roots of Muslim Rage." It is the best short piece I've found on this subject to date, and I think anyone interested in this topic should read it. Lewis (also) shows that while Israel is obviously unpopular in the Arab world, it may not be for the reasons so many knee-jerk Israel foes believe....." An important set of articles giving a valuable brief synopsis of East/West history and cultural conflict. Well worth reading. http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/90sep/rage.htm Michele Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Oct 02 04:22:47 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 11:22:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 16011 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 11:22:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 11:22:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mclean.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.57) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 11:22:46 -0000 Received: from sprynet.com (nycmny1-ar4-4-43-236-102.elnk.dsl.gtei.net [4.43.236.102]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26791 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 07:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BB9A3AC.5493D069@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 07:23:25 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Where are the Masters? References: <116.5733404.28e974de@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > > Did you take Dal's statement personally? And, is your statement an even more > emotional level argument (if his was so) to defend your own membership in a > "temporal organization"? I was trying to point out, graphically, that the statement contained a basic logical fallacy called "Prejudicial Language", and showed an equivalent statement to demonstrate. > In any case, why would Dal have to use an emotional level statement to > convince anyone of what the Masters, Buddha, Krishna, Christ, et al, > demonstrated or implied that they believed? Isn't that what theosophy > teaches fundamentally -- to detach oneself from the forms of this world -- be > "in the world and not of the world," so to speak? Yes, that was my point. I am sorry that it was not clearer. > So, why don't you discuss the truth of the statement or ask a question of you > disagree rather than pick on the author's means of saying it? I didn't say I disagreed. And THAT is important to the point, as well. If you re-read my note, and hold back emotional reactions, you will see that I was not disagreeing with his statement as much as pointing out that his statement DID contain emotional distractions designed to convince people to agree with it not because it's right, but to avoid being accused of being "unwise". Note that I only used the phrase "idiot" as an example, but you took it as if I had actually used the phrase to make a statement: > That's not very wise from a theosophical point of view. But, does that make > you an idiot? I'm sure we all know a lot of very intelligent but not so wise > people. > Does that make them idiots? You fell into the logical trap, and it wasn't even being set. How much more insidious is a logical trap that is set on purpose? And THAT is why I pointed it out, and did so harshly. Below is the original exchange, for reference: > In a message dated 09/30/01 10:18:08 PM, bartl@sprynet.com writes: > > >dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > >> The main point is that those who are truly WISE never attach themselves > >>or endorse any temporal ORGANIZATION. > > > > That is a statement trying to convince on an emotional level, > >equivalent to, say, "only an idiot would believe what you just said." > > > > Bart Lidofsky From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Oct 02 04:29:40 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 11:29:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 12056 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 11:29:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 11:29:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mclean.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.57) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 11:29:39 -0000 Received: from sprynet.com (nycmny1-ar4-4-43-236-102.elnk.dsl.gtei.net [4.43.236.102]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA22327 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 07:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BB9A54A.D984E8B6@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 07:30:18 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... References: <002701c14b0d$b0567a40$100aa8c0@nos> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Bart Lidofsky nos wrote: > Michele - Interesting article basically re-iterates the accepted > establishment views and history - Ignores many major points to simplify > a a supposedly simple moral argument. As the author doesn't 'appreciate' > theosophical history there is little point debating it. It’s a fluff > piece suitable for People. As opposed to baboons? Bart Lidofsky From ringding@blinx.de Tue Oct 02 05:26:30 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ringding@blinx.de X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 12:26:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 96290 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 12:26:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 12:26:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.blinx.de) (194.115.26.35) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 12:26:28 -0000 Received: (from amavis@localhost) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f92CQPX18189 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:26:25 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: mail.blinx.de: Processed by amavis with -C /etc/sendmail.orig.cf Received: from ringding (cppp-238.blinx.de [62.96.222.238]) by mail.blinx.de (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) with SMTP id f92CQMm18166 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:26:22 +0200 Message-ID: <007301c14b3d$ac361bc0$b6de603e@ringding> To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010930171223.009f4830@theosophy.com> Subject: Re: Theosophy World #64, October 1, 2001 - Theosophy is not received truth Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:27:17 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-9 From: "Frank Reitemeyer" I have read the articles from both Gregory Tillett and Dara Eklund with great care and interest. Both are likewise right from a certain point of view and I think there is some misunderstanding between them. Dara writes. > Nevertheless, there are means provided for a rational examination > of Theosophy and a means to test its theories on their own merit. That is quite right, but to my humble understanding that point wasn't refused by Gregory. > We do not need to accept them as either beliefs or dogmas. Dr. > Tillett's argument that we accept HPB's teachings as "received > Truth" falters when you take to heart her own words to accept > nothing upon faith alone. In the preface to her SECRET DOCTRINE, > she stated, That is also right. But to my understanding Gregory did not question what HPB said about Theosophy but rather what her followers make out of it. He says that the Theosophists do not understand the founding-Adepts very well when they establish received truths like the examples he gave. From an academic point of view he is quite right, and I think also from a deeper theosophical point of view. Today we have a very rigid and often twisted form of Theosophy and it seems that no one of the three outer organizations (Adyar, ULT, Pasadena) of today has the genuine Theosophy outlined by HPB. Why have we Theosophists a problem with it to admit the reality? For example I heard in a local lodge just during the last weeks: Do not read the Mahatma letters, they deal only with quarrel and that prevents good thoughts and harmony! Do not read The Secret Doctrine, it's an outmoded book! Leadbeater saw in the astral light that Apollonius is the reincarnation of Jesus Christ and was in order to that advanced from a Master to an Adept! Also Apollonius took a woman for good sex, but it was not the ordinary dirty human sex as there exists also holy sex between man and woman! OTOH, it should not be overlocked that all systems have the same problem, including science. Also in our universities the students hear received truths and they usually repeat them without question them. Take for example the new theory of Rupert Sheldrake. His fellow Biologists demanded his books to be burnt! And the mundane teachers claim often authority too. We too often intermix Theosophy with the TS and the TS with the members. Theosophy itself has its definite dogmas, but no TS has any dogmas and no member should be forced to believe in any dogmas. They may as individual members believe what they want. But there is another danger: Not all what they believe is in turn Theosophy. Considering this clear distinctions both authors are right, Dara points more to the ideal of Theosophy and Gregory point more to the actual use of Theosophy. Both positions are helpful to develop discrimination power which should be the first lesson on the occult path. Theosophy blindly accepted is a received truth, but Theosophy implies also a demand to test it and to live it - them it becomes our own and, only then, we can speak about it with authority and authenticity. If we just repeat parrotlike what we hear then we do not understand Theosophy. That is what Krishnamurti tried to say. Ironically K seems to be misused by some too when they believe that negation is the truth, but K taught also the negation of the negation which can help misleaded Theosophists to come back to the path HPB outlined to us. Of course it is not Theosophy in itself but it is a good beginning for Theosophy. Frank From teos9@aol.com Tue Oct 02 05:27:33 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 12:27:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 2988 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 12:27:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 12:27:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r01.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.97) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 12:27:32 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-r01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.7.) id r.c4.1b9b6f8a (4328) for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 08:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 08:27:21 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World The War Prayer by Mark Twain To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124 From: teos9@aol.com Hello Pendragon, Just wanted to say thanks for offering this bit of Mark Twain's deep & powerful insight into the real nature of war. Stripped of right or wrong, the act itself will ALWAYS bring forth the scenes described for us, in this story. Every physical action must be accompanied and powered by a focused INTENT. An intent which is both, conscious and stated, as well as un-conscious and un-stated. All the participants will be guilty of all the effects, known and unknown, of that action. The Karmic legacy of these actions will not lessen over time, until, the real, underlying, lessons are learned and an actual transformation in the Human Personality begins. Clearly, since we are about to engage again, on this most recent version, of the lessons of violence, which nature has been trying to teach us for millennia, we obviously have not yet learned anything, from a Karmic point of view. By our actions here and now we set into motion a future which is ours to inherit and one which CANNOT be escaped. Thanks for the piece, it is a treasure of folk wisdom which, Twain could play with, like very few others. Louis In a message dated 9/30/2001 8:42:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Pendragon@fix.net writes: > The War Prayer > March 1905 > > by Mark Twain > > Editor's note: Outraged by American military intervention in the > Phillipines, Mark Twain wrote this and sent it to Harper's Bazaar. This > women's magazine rejected it for being too radical, and it wasn't published > until after Mark Twain's death, when World War I made it even more timely. > It appeared in Harper's Monthly, November 1916. > > > It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in > arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; > the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the > bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the > receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of > flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide > avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and > sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion > as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to > patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which > they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears > running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached > devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His > aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every > listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash > spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its > righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their > personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more > in that way. > > Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the > front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces > alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering > momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, > the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then > home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden > seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and > envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send > forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the > noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old > Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ > burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with > glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation > > God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning > thy sword! > > Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for > passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its > supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would > watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in > their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the > hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, > invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them > and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory -- > > An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the > main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a > robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a > frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even > to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his > silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood > there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, > continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, > uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our > God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!" > > The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the > startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed > the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; > then in a deep voice he said: > > "I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The > words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no > attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will > grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have > explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is > like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who > utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think. > > "God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken > thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both > have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and > the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a > blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon > a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your > crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon > some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it. > > "You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am > commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part > which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed > silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You > heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is > sufficient. the whole of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant > words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you > have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory -- must follow > it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also > the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. > Listen! > > "O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth > to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth > from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our > God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help > us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; > help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, > writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane > of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with > unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to > wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and > thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, > broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the > grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their > hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy > their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the > blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is > the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all > that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen. > > (After a pause.) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The > messenger of the Most High waits!" > > It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was > no sense in what he said. > > Source: Jim Zwick ed., Mark Twain's Weapons of Satire (Syracue: Syracuse > University Press, 1992), pp. 156-160. > > > From nos@granite.net.au Tue Oct 02 08:36:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nos@granite.net.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 15:34:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 72918 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 15:34:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 15:34:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.granite.net.au) (203.132.126.6) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 15:36:50 -0000 Received: from nos (victor56k-37.granite.net.au [203.38.211.102]) by mail.granite.net.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA08814 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:10:14 +0930 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:10:52 +0930 Message-ID: <000801c14b58$9ebbd640$100aa8c0@nos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2605 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3BB9A54A.D984E8B6@sprynet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "nos" You'll notice the capital P - indicating a proper noun - in this case a magazine.=20 Actually I'll rephrase it - It's apologetics suitable for the soap box rally.=20 Cfdu Nos -----Original Message----- From: Bart Lidofsky [mailto:bartl@sprynet.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2001 9:00 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is=20 NOT to Blame... nos wrote: > Michele - Interesting article basically re-iterates the accepted=20 > establishment views and history - Ignores many major points to=20 > simplify a a supposedly simple moral argument. As the author doesn't=20 > 'appreciate' theosophical history there is little point debating it.=20 > It=92s a fluff piece suitable for People. As opposed to baboons?=20 Bart Lidofsky =20 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to=20 http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/=20 From nos@granite.net.au Tue Oct 02 08:42:16 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nos@granite.net.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 15:40:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 11601 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 15:40:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 15:40:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.granite.net.au) (203.132.126.6) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 15:42:14 -0000 Received: from nos (victor56k-37.granite.net.au [203.38.211.102]) by mail.granite.net.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA08859 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:15:33 +0930 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:16:04 +0930 Message-ID: <000a01c14b59$5f1a0d80$100aa8c0@nos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2605 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "nos" What if my beliefs are theosophical? Nos -----Original Message----- From: Tony [mailto:alpha@dircon.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2001 8:33 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... nos: <<>> Isn't it belief that is the evil? Piloting a plane into peoples beliefs (the real materialism) will not bring those beliefs down, or render them harmless. Wisdom (rather than belief) is something we can all aspire to. And that aspiration can help in crushing out beliefs (ignorance). The curse of humanity. Tony -----Original Message----- From: nos [mailto:nos@granite.net.au] Sent: 2 October 2001 3:24 am To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... HI Michele, Thanks for the Link - I'm working through it now - I'll get back to you with my thoughts. Have you read any Malcolm Booker? He is perhaps my main source of political commentary on middle eastern situations. We studied Iraq from his POV at University and it has perhaps moulded my own beliefs the most. Regards Nos (not ONLY sarcastic!) ;) -----Original Message----- From: Michele Lidofsky [mailto:officerjenny@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2001 3:15 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Why US 'Imperialialism', 'Racism' is NOT to Blame... Jonah Goldberg writes: "Bernard Lewis, perhaps the greatest living English-language historian of the Middle East, wrote a brilliant essay eleven years ago in the Atlantic entitled "The Roots of Muslim Rage." It is the best short piece I've found on this subject to date, and I think anyone interested in this topic should read it. Lewis (also) shows that while Israel is obviously unpopular in the Arab world, it may not be for the reasons so many knee-jerk Israel foes believe....." An important set of articles giving a valuable brief synopsis of East/West history and cultural conflict. Well worth reading. http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/90sep/rage.htm Michele Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From nos@granite.net.au Tue Oct 02 08:51:58 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: nos@granite.net.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 15:49:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 4769 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 15:49:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 15:49:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.granite.net.au) (203.132.126.6) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 15:51:56 -0000 Received: from nos (victor56k-37.granite.net.au [203.38.211.102]) by mail.granite.net.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA08956 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:25:21 +0930 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World To the Anti-War Demonstrators Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:25:58 +0930 Message-ID: <000b01c14b5a$bafa7300$100aa8c0@nos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2605 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3BB94580.7B90C46E@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "nos" -----Original Message----- From: Michele Lidofsky [mailto:officerjenny@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2001 2:12 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World To the Anti-War Demonstrators nos wrote: > Patriotism...Nationalism.... The anti-thesis of theosophy. > > Fortunately MOST of the youth see through MOST of it. "Be true, be loyal to your pledges, to your sacred duty, to your country, to your own conscience". K.H. "You pride yourself on not being a patriot - I DO NOT - for, in learning to love one's own country one but learns to love humanity the more". K.H. Further: "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. ..... I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honor than that she should in a cowardly manner become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor." Gandhi, Young India, August 11, 1920 "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." Gandhi (in his autobiography) "My Experiments with Truth" Michele _____________________ Can't say I've ever read your two sources above. This Gandhi fella sounds like a bit of a subversive type. KH - the product of HPB's need to say that what she had learnt had come from a 'higher' source.... I agree with be true to your conscience - don't know about true to my country. If my country was criminal it would be wrong to support it? And as to pride...I personally take no pride in being non-nationalist - I don't think of it. I think instead of learning to loves one country - one should learn to love just each person they come into contact with. In a perfect world there would of course be no countries - just a worldwide community - no borders, no passports, no political parties and of course no starvation, poverty, etc etc Imho Cfdu Nos From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Oct 02 10:08:46 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 17:08:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 96848 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 17:08:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 17:08:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.50) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 17:08:45 -0000 Received: from pool0869.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.191.104] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #2) id 15oT2D-0007Jt-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 10:08:45 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Unsubscribe Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:08:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200110011354.f91DsdM96756@mailserver1c.hushmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: Done Sorry to have troubled you DTB -----Original Message----- From: philo2@hushmail.com [mailto:philo2@hushmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 6:55 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Unsubscribe Please unsubscribe me. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Oct 02 10:08:53 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 17:08:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 53669 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 17:08:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 17:08:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.50) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 17:08:52 -0000 Received: from pool0869.cvx11-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.191.104] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #2) id 15oT2K-0007Jt-00; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 10:08:52 -0700 To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: Where are the Masters? Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:08:45 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3BB7D217.C3A5DF0E@sprynet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: Monday, October 01, 2001 Dear Bart: I think if you read the MAHATMA LETTERS and H.P.Blavatsky's SHE BEING DEAD YET SPEAKETH also H. P. Blavatsky's WHY I DO NOT RETURN TO INDIA and her A PUZZLE FROM ADYAR you will get my meaning. It is not emotional at all, as far as I am concerned, nor am I interested in convincing any one. If you read what the Mahatmas have said and add to that what H.P.Blavatsky has said, form your own conclusions. Dallas. ======================================== -----Original Message----- From: Bart Lidofsky [mailto:bartl@sprynet.com] Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 7:17 PM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Where are the Masters? dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > The main point is that those who are truly WISE never attach themselves or > endorse any temporal ORGANIZATION. That is a statement trying to convince on an emotional level, equivalent to, say, "only an idiot would believe what you just said." Bart Lidofsky Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Oct 02 12:01:42 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 19:01:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 2860 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 19:01:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 19:01:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 19:01:34 -0000 Received: from pool0024.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.152.24] helo=earthlink) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.32 #2) id 15oUnG-0001Es-00; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:01:27 -0700 To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: Faith Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:01:12 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 Dear Jerry: In absolute terms, during manifestation, nothing is "stable" except the unmodified SOURCE, or rather since it cannot be defined in our limited terms: the ABSOLUTE, the SPIRITUAL ALL. It really cannot be given a name. To some it is NO-THING. So I agree that the rules, laws, etc that Science uses are at best "resting places." They have a limited time value on which we perch our concepts. If we are wise we do not solidify them but admit they are mutable, yet if one pleases they are "subjective" (not on this plane) "centers of force" or, IDEAS. If the physical and astral planes change constantly, then their supports (Life energy - prana, and Kama-desire) are also mutable. [The PERSONALITY) In respect to those, the Mind seems more stable. Yet, the Mind is a "tool" in the grasp of the PERCEIVER. Shall we not say that the Perceiver is ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS [ The INDIVIDUALITY] taken as a Monadic unity [The THREE-IN-ONE] in material manifestation and evolution? These are of course words, and are modified by the concepts each individual holds in regard to their qualities and functions. The concept as I grasp it is that the Eternal thought in the Eternal Mind (Gita) fragments itself throughout the UNIVERSE On our Earth it fragments itself into the innumerable centers of dynamic intelligence and force which are called MONADS. These then, are the "Eternal Pilgrims" in search of their Goal: Total Wisdom. Mankind represents a stage along this great path whereby the intelligence of Matter, ever-building, the wisdom of spirit ever-inclusive, meets with the power of discrimination -- the MIND which has the curious independence that enables it to view material constructs on one side and perfect IDEALS in terms of altruistic living on the other. (Or so I visualize it, simplistically of course.) But to my mind this does not obviate the great and general Law of KARMA -- the CAUSELESS CAUSE -- as it is sometimes spoken of. "Faith" or "belief" to me is an expression of ignorance unless it is a referral to some proposition that one has already demonstrated to one's self as reasonable and exact -- which terms, of course may have different meaning for different minds,. As to SUBJECTIVE. Everything is ultimately subjective. No "objective" event in the material universe (VISIBLE OR INVISIBLE) -- to my way of thinking -- nothing is totally and forever immobilized. If, say I to myself, this idea is grasped, it has to be placed as feeling and idea subjectively, before the screen of the Mind. Then it is an object for the mind to consider. I believe the MIND employs the brain (where our consciousness is under our control and most active at present) as a medium of communication between the MATERIAL and the IMMATERIAL, or between the form and the causative essence of that "form." It can no more be objectivized than the Mind or the "impact of a desire," or a "feeling." One may depict it in words, or other images, but the real thing is inexpressible in any of our comparative and necessarily limited terms. And yet, we are all presently forced to employ words to communicate our IDEAS. There has to be a reason for this set of limitations. I often wonder what it would be like to communicate mind to mind, and yet to distinguish one set of thoughts from another set. I suppose we are trending towards this. In regard to mountain moved by faith -- does it not say that the material is altered by the immaterial power of determined thought? Is this not the "Will?" What added to "faith" moves the mountains? What is the actual focus. There is also I agree a usage of "faith" as a synonym for WILL. But then one needs to define WILL and let the common usage of "faith" as a word expand. I don't really mean to change gears here, but to indicate that Jesus ' saying is true in its own context. The one who applies has to chose according to his development and progress which he desires to use. As to GOD One has to decide if there is such a thing and what its powers are, According to those views so will be the usage. But the general public has only a very nebulous idea of what GOD signifies. Theosophy tries to gather all those meanings into simple propositions. I DO NOT think it at all reasonable that any GOD we may think of as related to our EARTH only is also the GOD OF THE UNIVERSE. Our Earth is altogether too puny -- though large to us. What ever its administrator may be ( the PLANETARY SPIRIT) perhaps -- under whatever name -- it is benevolent, tolerant, lawful and ever-handed to all the beings that are evolved under its general guidance. We either have 1. Nature and the UNIVERSE in its spiritual aspect -- impersonal and honest as GOD immanent in all (omnipresent), or 2. We place GOD in a limited form of some kind and make HIM a creator outside of the laws of creation which he devises. And we make HIM separate from HIS CREATION -- which is it to be? Are we to be personally annihilated because we question or investigate these ideas? Are we to be ruled by the fear of the unknown. Or are we to remain beatifically ignorant, and let the priests and the padres worry over those things -- and without our queries or interference ? In either case the examination of GOD'S WORKS (assumed to be Nature, Man, etc...) is the province of Science (broadly) -- but the individual's MIND does the examining and the conceptualizing and the theorizing. A knowledge of REALITY ( if available to the embodied mind) would solve these speculations and doubts. But they would not stop the power of the INDIVIDUAL to maintain and purse his own speculations or be limited by whatever doubts he has provided himself with. As to REINCARNATION. What does one do with the Spirit as a "Ray of the Deific Principle?" If the body dies what happens to it? As to what one has thought about, willed, hoped for, desired, achieved -- what happens to those ? Are they entirely wasted -- all these efforts? If not wasted where are they stored? If stored, the when are they given another "existence?" I agree with you that "faith moves mountains." But Jesus was not too specific was he? He left it to the disciples to find out what he meant. I think we are trying to do that, each in his own way. But the value of these exchanges is that they widen our own perceptions and then deepen them to include the work and thoughts of others -- still it remains for us to adopt or reject them, or to seek to understand the basis for the logic that another employs. Best wishes, Dallas ================================ -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Schueler [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 4:41 PM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: RE: Faith <<>> Many scientists would not agree with this. I don't agree with it either. I recommend you read CHOOSING REALITY: A BUDDHIST VIEW OF PHYSICS AND THE MIND, by B. Alan Wallace (Snow Lion) which provides a lot of hard evidence to the "faith" that is required in modern science where theories abound. In it you will read things like "What we experience, however, is change, and upon close inspection it seems that time is simply a concept that we impute on change." (p 108) and so on ... <<>> Rather than "foggy" Dallas, perhaps you should say, subjective. All life is subjective, the external "reality" of it being an imputation of the human mind. <<< FAITH -- as a blind and unreasoning adoption of any explanation (or of none) which springs solely from ignorance, hope and a desire to be happy and undisturbed.>>> It too bad that you always take such a low opinion of faith, Dallas. A great man once said that it can move mountains. FACT 1: There is absolutely no proof that God exists. FACT 2: There is absolutely no proof that God does not exist. People who believe in God are called theists, and they take it on faith that God exists and act accordingly. People who believe that God does not exist are called atheists, and they take it on faith that God does not exist and act accordingly. Both views are based on faith. The most crass materialist takes it on faith that his/her physical senses are accurate and that what they reveal to the brain-mind is reality. A materialist uses faith just as must as a Christian, or Buddhist, or Theosophist, or anyone else. Scientists have faith in their mutual observations. We all have faith in something. The same is true with reincarnation. Some believe in it, and others do not. Not a single person knows absolutely for sure if we reincarnate or not. Theosophy is a belief system as much as any other, although I know you don't want to hear that, Dallas. But Theosophy does help explain psychic and spiritual experiences that our physical senses don't explain. And so we find it useful. Call me crazy, but I am a big believer in faith moving mountains. It moves lives and countries and even worlds, every moment of every day, and it does so whether we are conscious of it or not (perhaps you are not yet aware of your own faith in how you perceive reality? Change all of your "I know"s to "I believe"s and you will be closer to the truth, my friend). Our most beloved and trusted assumptions of life and reality are just that - assumptions. Jerry S. -- --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@earthlink.net List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-14759P@list.vnet.net From Pendragon@fix.net Tue Oct 02 17:16:19 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: pendragon@fix.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 3 Oct 2001 00:16:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 77836 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2001 00:16:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2001 00:16:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snfc21.pbi.net) (206.13.28.241) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Oct 2001 00:16:18 -0000 Received: from istvanba ([64.161.57.70]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GKL008CISQ6WF@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net>; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 17:11:37 -0700 Subject: Fw: [nadervt] Warning: The present condition of the U.S. To: Message-id: <008701c14ba0$0a633950$4639a140@istvanba> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal From: Pendragon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In September, over 6,000 Americans were lost when the biggest and best funded military in world history was defeated by a handful of guerillas armed mainly with knives. In normal circumstances there would be talk of courts martial (as there was in the case of Pearl Harbor) and impeachment (as there was during the Vietnam War). Instead we have been conned into waving the flag on behalf of an establishment that has shamefully failed the country through a combination of arrogance, greed, stupidity, unpreparedness, carelessness, and corruption. Consider, for example, the fact that we are now getting lessons on patriotism from politicians and journalists who spent the past decade tossing American sovereignty down the drain in the name of "free trade." Consider that our military, alienating the restless in scores of country, turned out to be a cause of our troubles rather than of their elimination. Consider an intelligence establishment that help train the guerillas who have now turned on us. Consider the politicians who undermined our safety to please the oil and defense industries or who endangered our lives in order to support Israel and gain the campaign rewards that followed. Consider a foreign policy intelligentsia that could not tell the difference between realpolitik and realstupid. This is not cause for unity, flag-waving and loyalty to the latest political puppet of a decadent elite that has led us into such a crisis. It is cause for shock and anger, for citizen inquiries and investigations into the questions the think tanks, Congress and the media refuse to ask, and for a Solidarity-type movement in which Americans who love their land, the freedom they once possessed, and the decency to which they aspire come together not just to bring peace in a war-mad moment but to cause a transformation in how power is exercised. I was asked the other day what I would do if I were president. I declined the hypothesis because, I said, the only way that would happen would be if the Green Party had come to power, which would mean that America would have already have been acting in a far different manner than it is today and thus the attacks would have been far less like even to have occurred. I might have added that it was a little late to be seeking the advice of those who have repeatedly sought a different course and who, in return, have been scorned, kept off the ballot, not invited to debates, and blacked out of the media. Further, the American establishment, despite its shameful and disastrous failure, refuses even now to listen to other than itself. Check this out by counting how many minutes on mainstream TV or inches in your paper are devoted to non-military, non-violent solutions to our problem. Of course, the establishment would have you believe that the guerillas sprung from the global forest like the Big Bad Wolf going after Little Red Riding Hood. It relies heavily on the American faith that bad things have only two sources: accident or someone else's evil. The idea, such as was imbedded for centuries in maritime law, that a collision often involves divided fault, is alien to us save in a few instances such as when an abused spouse shoots her husband. Yet we must now face our proportional responsibility not only in the name of honesty but in the name of survival. Nations can not well endure on such a diet of denial as ours. The question of what one should do at this moment is clouded by another truth: there may actually be no adequate defense against that which we fear. To believe that we will be safe if we only ban, search, and spy on enough things, and jail enough people on enough specious grounds, is a path towards madness. Like the individual suffering from agoraphobia, we will become prisoners in our own rooms. The possibility of no available defense is frightening until one realizes that we live happily with it every day in other contexts. For example, no husband and wife adequately protects themselves from being murdered by each other or by their children. Yet, most do not sleep in bulletproof vests nor pat the kids down each time they walk in the house. That's because we have found other ways of assuring the safety in these relationships based on means beyond those used by the military and police. Similarly, despite the often heated nature of labor negotiations, I have never heard of a mediator going into the conference room fully armed. To define the possible solutions to this crisis as only those of war and security is to admit defeat, for it is on this level that we are most vulnerable. Yet these appear to be virtually the sole tools our establishment understands. Thus not only has it brought unprecedented shame and danger to this land, it proposes with unbridled hubris to compound its errors by more of the same. The rest of us, whether out of moral sense or pragmatic grasp, must no longer enable such madness but tell those who have failed and betrayed us that they may not, must not, damage further our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. SAM SMITH To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: nadervt-unsubscribe@egroups.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Oct 02 17:48:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 3 Oct 2001 00:48:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 15553 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2001 00:48:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 3 Oct 2001 00:48:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp6.mindspring.com) (207.69.200.110) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Oct 2001 00:48:51 -0000 Received: from sprynet.com (nycmny1-ar4-4-43-236-102.elnk.dsl.gtei.net [4.43.236.102]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA32325 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BBA6098.18C9CFD8@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 20:49:28 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Where are the Masters? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky dalval14@earthlink.net wrote: > I think if you read the MAHATMA LETTERS and H.P.Blavatsky's SHE > BEING DEAD YET SPEAKETH also H. P. Blavatsky's WHY I DO NOT > RETURN TO INDIA and her A PUZZLE FROM ADYAR you will get my > meaning. > > It is not emotional at all, as far as I am concerned, nor am I > interested in convincing any one. I was not protesting your message; I was protesting the format in which you presented it. You were using a logical fallacy called "Prejudicial Language", defined as "Loaded or emotive terms are used to attach value or moral goodness to believing the proposition." Bart Lidofsky From bilmer@surfsouth.com Tue Oct 02 19:48:09 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bilmer@surfsouth.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 3 Oct 2001 02:48:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 92173 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2001 02:48:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 3 Oct 2001 02:48:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl-mta01.durocom.com) (216.53.195.242) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Oct 2001 02:48:09 -0000 Received: from default ([216.128.178.178]) by fl-mta01.durocom.com with ESMTP id <20011003024838.QVDP6346.fl-mta01@default> for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:48:38 -0400 To: Subject: Re: Theos-World Fw: [nadervt] Warning: The present condition of the U.S. Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:46:28 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20011003024838.QVDP6346.fl-mta01@default> From: "Bill Meredith" ---------- > From: Pendragon > To: Undisclosed-Recipient:; > Subject: Theos-World Fw: [nadervt] Warning: The present condition of the U.S. > Date: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 8:11 PM > > In September, over 6,000 Americans were lost > when the biggest and best funded military in world history was defeated by a > handful of guerillas armed mainly with knives. > The U.S. military was not responsible for protecting the WTC. Domestic terrorism has been the responsibility of the FBI. It is true that this division of labor has to change. The U.S. military has not been defeated. Be patient......and you will see. > In normal circumstances there would be talk of courts martial (as there was > in the case of Pearl Harbor) and impeachment (as there was during the > Vietnam War). Again you confuse the role of the U.S. military with other agencies. Instead we have been conned into waving the flag on behalf of > an establishment that has shamefully failed the country through a > combination of arrogance, greed, stupidity, unpreparedness, carelessness, > and corruption. And tonight all around the world young men and women stand guard over your freedom to utter such nonsense. > Consider, for example, the fact that we are now getting lessons on > patriotism from politicians and journalists who spent the past decade > tossing American sovereignty down the drain in the name of "free trade." > Consider that our military, alienating the restless in scores of country, > turned out to be a cause of our troubles rather than of their elimination. > Consider an intelligence establishment that help train the guerillas who > have now turned on us. Consider the politicians who undermined our safety to > please the oil and defense industries or who endangered our lives in order > to support Israel and gain the campaign rewards that followed. Consider a > foreign policy intelligentsia that could not tell the difference between > realpolitik and realstupid. > Consider, for example, the fact that despite our so called defeat at the hands of a group of thugs, you have not been called upon to defend any aspect of America with your time, or money, or life. You are free. Free to leave this sorry ass country that you have no use for with its corrupt military, political, and foreign policies. And I am free to wish you good riddance. > This is not cause for unity, flag-waving and loyalty to the latest political > puppet of a decadent elite that has led us into such a crisis. It is cause > for shock and anger, for citizen inquiries and investigations into the > questions the think tanks, Congress and the media refuse to ask, and for a > Solidarity-type movement in which Americans who love their land, the freedom > they once possessed, and the decency to which they aspire come together not > just to bring peace in a war-mad moment but to cause a transformation in how > power is exercised. > We are not in a war-mad moment. You are in a delusional state of denial. Many citizens have great difficulty dealing with events of the past few weeks. Some bow their heads and pray. Some are depressed and anxious. Some, like you, are pissed off. Since it is safer to yell at your own country than it is to yell at your enemy, you do that. Be safe my friend. Be safe in your ignorance. > I was asked the other day what I would do if I were president. I declined > the hypothesis because, I said, the only way that would happen would be if > the Green Party had come to power, which would mean that America would have > already have been acting in a far different manner than it is today and thus > the attacks would have been far less like even to have occurred. I might > have added that it was a little late to be seeking the advice of those who > have repeatedly sought a different course and who, in return, have been > scorned, kept off the ballot, not invited to debates, and blacked out of the > media. > A coward will never been elected president. > Further, the American establishment, despite its shameful and disastrous > failure, refuses even now to listen to other than itself. Check this out by > counting how many minutes on mainstream TV or inches in your paper are > devoted to non-military, non-violent solutions to our problem. > Lordy, Lordy, you are a throw-back to the 60's. When all else fails, attack the 'establishment.' Like you aren't establishment. Your rhetoric conforms to the established norms for radical anti-establishment propoganda. You give Life to the establishment. > Of course, the establishment would have you believe that the guerillas > sprung from the global forest like the Big Bad Wolf going after Little Red > Riding Hood. It relies heavily on the American faith that bad things have > only two sources: accident or someone else's evil. The idea, such as was > imbedded for centuries in maritime law, that a collision often involves > divided fault, is alien to us save in a few instances such as when an abused > spouse shoots her husband. Yet we must now face our proportional > responsibility not only in the name of honesty but in the name of survival. > Nations can not well endure on such a diet of denial as ours. > You are not qualified to use the words 'American faith' While you may be American, you have no faith. > The question of what one should do at this moment is clouded by another > truth: there may actually be no adequate defense against that which we fear. > To believe that we will be safe if we only ban, search, and spy on enough > things, and jail enough people on enough specious grounds, is a path towards > madness. Like the individual suffering from agoraphobia, we will become > prisoners in our own rooms. > There is no question what we should do at this moment. We, (the establishment) have already developed a plan and put it into motion. For you to believe that if we extend a hand of friendship to our terrorist enemies that it will not be chopped off is the path towards madness. You want so bad for the world to be an ideal place that you are willing to accept your 6000 neighbors' horrible deaths as a necessary price to pay on the path to utopia. You are a fool. > The possibility of no available defense is frightening until one realizes > that we live happily with it every day in other contexts. For example, no > husband and wife adequately protects themselves from being murdered by each > other or by their children. Yet, most do not sleep in bulletproof vests nor > pat the kids down each time they walk in the house. That's because we have > found other ways of assuring the safety in these relationships based on > means beyond those used by the military and police. Similarly, despite the > often heated nature of labor negotiations, I have never heard of a mediator > going into the conference room fully armed. > > To define the possible solutions to this crisis as only those of war and > security is to admit defeat, for it is on this level that we are most > vulnerable. Yet these appear to be virtually the sole tools our > establishment understands. Thus not only has it brought unprecedented shame > and danger to this land, it proposes with unbridled hubris to compound its > errors by more of the same. > The establishment has made it clear that terrorism will be fought on all available fronts including economic, political, and military. You choose to focus your hatred on the wrong enemy. > The rest of us, whether out of moral sense or pragmatic grasp, must no > longer enable such madness but tell those who have failed and betrayed us > that they may not, must not, damage further our lives, our fortunes, and > our sacred honor. SAM SMITH > > You have failed and betrayed your friends, neighbors, and country. As I said earlier: You are free to leave so that your life and fortune and sacred honor will not be damaged any further by the country that you love to hate. I'm sure the Taliban will welcome you with open arms. No, you will not leave. You have never had it so good. Bill Meredith > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > nadervt-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > From officerjenny@mindspring.com Tue Oct 02 20:17:54 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: officerjenny@mindspring.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 3 Oct 2001 03:17:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 92968 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2001 03:17:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2001 03:17:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mclean.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.57) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Oct 2001 03:17:53 -0000 Received: from mindspring.com (nycmny1-ar4-4-43-236-102.elnk.dsl.gtei.net [4.43.236.102]) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA07261 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3BBA8385.5DDE4FA3@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 23:18:29 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "theos-talk@yahoogroups.com" Subject: Jonah Goldberg on Moral Equivalance Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Michele Lidofsky Who Are We to Judge? Americans, that’s who. September 21, 2001 5:00 p.m. Note: My apologies for changing the topic of this column from the one advertised. But I received so many e-mails from people asking, "Who are we to judge?" or "What's the answer to moral equivalence arguments?" that I couldn't contain myself. We'll come back to the end of history another time. Last year, bending to the pressure from a broad array of animal-rights groups, the British House of Commons voted to ban fox hunting. "A feudal relic from the Dark Ages," is how one prominent critic summarized the popular view. In America, fox hunting is also under attack. But the controversy is more muted because the sport plays a smaller role in our national culture. Broadly speaking, I think it's fair to say that the people here in America and in Great Britain who oppose fox hunting are also, in all likelihood, the same folks who lament the dissolution of "indigenous cultures" around the world. They believe it is a tragedy that Amazonian, African, and Asian tribal communities are losing their "traditional lifestyles." Somehow, the fact that these traditional lifestyles involve the hunting, killing, and ritualized mutilating of all sorts of animals which are not only cuter than foxes, but rarer or more intelligent, doesn't trouble them. In America, there are those who want to give rights to rats used in cancer and Parkinson's studies. But take a trip up the Congo, down the Amazon, or along the Yangtze and all of a sudden it's okay for Third Worlders to eat dogs, kill jaguars, and slaughter monkeys by the barrel. I bring this up to illustrate the point that here in America all that is traditional, the few "feudal relics from the Dark Ages" we have left, are subjected to constant purges and social cleansing. Customs like f