From compiler@wisdomworld.org Tue May 01 17:42:54 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 2 May 2001 00:42:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 72205 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 19:37:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 May 2001 19:37:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com) (24.0.95.141) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 May 2001 19:37:42 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([24.3.34.114]) by femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010501193742.KFWX12893.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@wisdomworld.org> for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 12:37:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3AEF1E23.A0304937@wisdomworld.org> Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 15:35:48 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: "ORIGINS OF SCIENTIFIC MATERIALISM" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Compiler This article may be useful supplementary reading based on the current conversation going on under the heading of "Stemming the tide of materialism": http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/materialism.html Here's the Index page that it is on; it's the 57 article of the 166 that have been compiled in this "Volume 1--> Setting the Stage" book: http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting.html John DeSantis (Compiler) ------- You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: Wisdom World web site (Main Page): http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html The page where "Additional" articles are steadily being added: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/index.html ------- From jjhe@netfeed.com Wed May 02 10:40:41 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjhe@netfeed.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 2 May 2001 17:40:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 75742 invoked from network); 2 May 2001 16:52:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 May 2001 16:52:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO toadie.netfeed.com) (209.95.176.5) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 May 2001 16:52:49 -0000 Received: from pavilion (ppp-pm31stoca-161-126.netfeed.com [209.95.177.126] (may be forged)) by toadie.netfeed.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07326 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <001401c0d328$413ad0a0$7eb15fd1@pavilion> To: Subject: Re Stemming the Tide of Materialism Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:52:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0D2ED.941BB5E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "Jerry Hejka-Ekins" ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0D2ED.941BB5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you so much everyone for the great references. The picture I get is = that HPB had certain objectives she was obliged to carry out and tried to d= o so through the TS. But the TS was formed by committee, and we all know f= rom experience that anything done by committee always turns out differently= than what any single member has in mind.=20 jhe ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0D2ED.941BB5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you so much everyone for the great=20 references.  The picture I get is that HPB had certain objectives she = was=20 obliged to carry out and tried to do so through the TS.  But the TS wa= s=20 formed by committee, and we all know from experience that anything done by= =20 committee always turns out differently than what any single member has in m= ind.=20
 
jhe
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0D2ED.941BB5E0-- From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu May 03 17:25:30 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 4 May 2001 00:25:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 66161 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 00:25:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 May 2001 00:25:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 May 2001 00:25:28 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0530.cvx4-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.148.20]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA29894; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:25:26 -0700 (PDT) To: "AA-Theos-talk" Subject: THOUGHT - WILL - FEELING Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 18:22:49 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net Wednesday, May 02, 2001 Re: Thought, Will and Feeling There is forever a difficulty in dealing with the two opposed "poles" of existence. Theosophy has offered us for consideration the concept of the MONAD. It seems to me this is of help -- as follows: The Monad (Spirit/Matter conjoined) The idea of the MONAD epitomizes this, because it is said to be eternal. In the Secret Doctrine, H.P.B. deals with this extensively. ( S.D. I 173 - 184 ) One of the key statement is in S.D. I p. 289, where we read from an ancient "Commentary" :"there is not one finger's breath (Angula) of void space in the whole of Boundless (Universe) ..." Eternity - Time - Duration Eternal means it began its existence when the Universe started. And that cannot be defined. Instead of "Time," the concept of eternal DURATION has to be invoked -- and we enter the realm of meta-physics. MANVANTARA The present "manifestation" or MAHA-MANVANTARA (period of waking and doing) is said to be a little more than half over. (S.D. II 68 - 70) It consists of two parts: 1. the descent of Spirit into matter and then when thoroughly mixed, MIND acts and gives the Monad its INDIVIDUALITY, its power of perception (I am putting this badly, of course for all this occurs under KARMA -- the great LAW of life and of individual living) the phase 2 begins and this is the "ascent of Matter made Intelligent" back into Spirit (plus all the experience gained). (S.D. I 200) Beginning and Ending The problem of "beginning" (or "ending") starts when one considers that Pralaya (rest, non-activity) is always followed by one of Manvantara (activity, life, awareness, intelligence and all their interactions, growths, failures and increments). These cycles endlessly intertwine as the process of "raising 'matter' up to the "nature, stature and dignity of conscious godhood" ever continues. CYCLES OF WORK AND REST Each Manvantara is like a new birth (after a gestation period -- so to say) which began in the rest period. And this is the lawful result of all the energies and forces used in an earlier Manvantara -- just as reincarnation of the human Ego is a result of the life last lived. Each birth of a Universe and of all beings composing it, sees a period of growth and learning, and this is then followed by one of support, work, and imparting of wisdom to those who follow or surround it. Then, when the cycles close, there always follows the destruction (or dispersal) of the "form," and the transfer into another plane of consciousness of the spiritual consciousness. But, Theosophy teaches that the components of the "form" are not "destroyed." They too, are immortal Monads, though of a lesser degree of learning. They enter into a period of introspective rest, and assimilate the essence of the experiences they underwent during the previous Manvantara. This is analogous to reincarnation for all of us. This process occurs in mankind, as well as for the Atoms of the Earth, for the world, the solar system, and ultimately, the whole Universe. But here there is a paradox. The Universe being immeasurable it is not possible for the WHOLE to be at any time totally involved in the rest-period of a Pralaya, however vast. There is always some section somewhere that is awake and active. CONSCIOUSNESS -- 7 and 10 states We think we know something of the 7 states of Consciousness S.D. I 157, 181) but there are states of Universal consciousness which we can only vaguely guess at. Perhaps they are left unidentified purposely as H.P.B. does in the diagram at S.D. I 200 where she places a triangle in the 3 planes above the 4 planes of the 7 GLOBES. She names them: "The Divine And Formless Plane Of Spirit." (see also SD I 242, 267, 434 II 300-1, 540, 759, 607 footnote. This ought to give us all plenty of room for meditation -- but not for speculation unless sound logic supports. Thus cycles overlap all the time and as far back as one might go, or as far forward as one might anticipate in time, there has always been this duality and the eternal and indestructible MONAD host has always been a part of it. Manifestation always imposes the limits of Karma on all entities that revive and begin to participate each in their own legitimate place in the process of continuing this vast journey towards ULTIMATE WISDOM and true Living. Parent and Child Using your query the "parent" is like a Monad that has accumulated much experience and has accumulated around it many other Monads which together frame its WISDOM. In terms of ultimates it is still limited. It has its own "path" and "journey." As a comet has a 'tail,' so each Monad has an assembly of "monads of lesser experience," which surround and follow it, for which it acts as a "parent." And yet, we find in the S.D. (S.D. I 174-5 footnote) the idea that the Monad per se remains unaffected -- and it is the late-comers who have to voluntarily choose to "adhere to it." It is a puzzle and a paradox. A statement which it is hard to rationalize. In any and all cases the law of affinity works and this is propelled by the law of Karma that covers everything -- it is the CAUSELESS CAUSE. On examination, this concept is as difficult of definition as would be a definition for the ABSOLUTE. The first volume of the S.D. gives us a survey of most of the important factors involved -- enough to enable us to reason out and 'intuit' more. To this primary center, Monads of lesser experience continually come from the ocean of the "Monadic Essence." ( see S.D. I 619, 178-9, 632 II 273 ) They are said to adhere to it and give it an "individuality" which H.P.B. says survives the greatest of Pralayas. The INDIVIDUALITY is never "lost." [ see H.P.B. ARTICLES, (ULT) Vol III, P. 265 -- ISIS UNVEILED AND THE VISISHTADWAITA (Theosophist January 1886 -- BCW Vol. 7, p. 50) Speaking of the vat line of gurus that are seen to extend infinitely from the past into our present and then into the future H.P.B. names them the "Guruparampara Chain." Some more details of this are given in TRANSACTIONS of the BLAVATSKY LODGE, pp 23-26. (ULT Edn. -- Vol. 10, BCW) Purpose ? One of the obligations of existence is the imparting of wisdom and true knowledge to others, so that they too may consider, think and if they can, test and try to adopt for themselves, these great concepts of life, its purpose and a correct way of living. The Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Lao-Tze, Pythagoras, Plato, Hermes and hundreds of great men and "prophets" have always come, worked, and left the same general message. Slowly but surely the power of the concept of brotherhood attracts the attention of those who suffer and seek to bring their pain (and that of their fellows), to an end. It therefore follows that Moksha or Nirvana does not see the "erasure" of any CONSCIOUSNESS. It continues, and Nature (the Universe) supports and nurtures it. From these states of spiritual selfishness they who took temporary refuge there, eventually return (see S.D. II 79-80, 94, 110-1) The difference between the "Parent" and the "child" is the amount of experience that the parent has, compared to the child during its growing and learning period. If one reads Plato's REPUBLIC one may gain an insight into the way an ideal society might be made to function -- based on responsibility and brotherhood, in our world. Tis is perhaps a 5th or 6th ROUND probability when every human being voluntarily adheres to brotherhood as a rule of life. Here we have planted for us (in Theosophy) the "Seed" of the Great Idea. The plant and tree are yet to come and bear their golden fruit in the 7th ROUND. The WISE The "WISE ONES" are truly our "parents." And physical age has little to do with it. (see S.D. I 207-210, 272-3) Another idea to consider: THOUGHT means there is a MIND functioning. It has 3 main faculties: it remembers, it thinks constructively, it forgets (and destruction generally follows, unless anticipation leads WILL to choose a "path" that is constructive). It is the INDIVIDUALITY and represents the spiritual base of the eternal MONAD for each of us. WILL implies the POWER TO CHOOSE, to see polar opposites like "good and bad," like "Matter and Spirit," etc... It resides in between the two opposites and its function is to assist the growth of the "personal" into the impersonal and universal. It Knows the truth of things and their Ideal nature. It can recommend on appeal a course of action to the "Lower mind." But in n o way can it compel (Transactions pp 66-76) FEELING implies a sensitivity to the effect of any concept, act, or thought. This sensitivity is balanced between two extremes: generosity (brotherhood) and selfishness (isolation). Here is the difference between vice and virtue. Broadly speaking, one may say that vice is an exaggerated virtue -- one that has not been tempered by harmony and balance in this dynamic universe of continuously changing situations and contrasts. Those chaotic situations have been produced by our earlier choices and those which have affected the lives of others who like us are weaving their freedom. LIFE and LIVING is an on-going condition with many variables in which we are all engaged. The Spirit is immortal and employs many 'personal' lives. Many forms are created out of the matter which the Spirit continually calls together to frame a new focus of experience in the plane of "physical existence." This matter are the "skandhas" the "life-units," all Monads of lesser experience which accrete to the Individuality because of affinity and past use. This is Karma in action in regard to our physical and personal living. The Spirit in Man On examination the Spirit in Man, (which is immortal and the cause of incarnation) finds itself confined in Matter (which gives it a limited form, and with that, fear and ignorance arise, because the vision of matter without Spirit to illumine and guide it, sees only death, frustration and dissolution. ). Fear and ignorance cause suffering when the light of Spirit is denied or avoided. Wisdom and Progress The "fight" for supremacy and for WISDOM is always in the Mind. One half of the Mind is spiritual and wise, and the other half, allied to the form of the present moment, is ignorant of its potentials -- and therefore, fearful of pain and its ultimate death. The mission of the Spirit is to illuminate the Mind, so that its spiritual half may reflect its WISDOM and assurance of continued life on to its other half, that is deluded by the limited vision that matter provides. The faculty known to us as FEELING works extensively in the material planes, and it not a substitute for the Spirit, because its present material limitations lead it to perceive only the present form and its needs and desires. Mankind, (as Monads) endowed with both WISDOM-MIND and the DESIRE-MIND has to work his way out of this paradoxical state and choose which of the two he will use in making decisions. This decision process is universal and is the only method whereby Mankind (each one as an Individual, and the whole, as an intelligent army) moves out of "matter" and its false limits, into the universal plane of "Spirit" and its universal power to provide answers that resonate (honestly, sincerely, justly and truly) in every context. Tis is of course, as I see the problem and as I see Theosophy makes this view reasonable. But there may be other views and it would be good to hear them and discuss them. Best wishes, DTB From dalval14@earthlink.net Thu May 03 17:25:34 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 4 May 2001 00:25:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 66434 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 00:25:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 May 2001 00:25:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.123) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 May 2001 00:25:34 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0530.cvx4-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.148.20]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA00316; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:25:32 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] Thought , Will and other... Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 18:23:10 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0D3FE.1BC7B280" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: From: dalval14@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0D3FE.1BC7B280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thursday, May 03, 2001 Dear B-----a: But ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS (or the immortal and ETERNAL PILGRIM) did EXIST before manifestation began. In Theosophy the concept of the obscuration between Manvantaras -- a Pralaya -- does not mean a total elimination of everything into nothingness. That is illogical and Nature would not permit it. The teaching is that these periods called Pralayas are periods of rest and the SPIRITUAL ELEMENT is always AWAKE and supports the rebirth of the whole KOSMOS and every being in it. (S.D. I 27) When Pralaya sets in it is for the Universe like our daily (nightly) sleep. The spiritual nature is awake (dreams) while the BODY SLEEPS. Daily the miracle of the return of the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS to its body occurs as we awaken. There is always SOMETHING alive and awake that supports the many cycles of rebirth. It is a universal LAW - KARMA. It is the group (or Universal) Karma and the Karma of each individual SPIRIT/SOUL. Dal =============================== -----Original Message----- From: B Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:29 PM To: sd@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-sd] Thought , Will and other... But where was the PARENT? No babe no PARENT. A kind of chicken or egg problem , i guess. It is interesting to see that some interpret the AH_HI as the parent to the universal Mind. I think the meaning of mind changes in SD, which makes it very confusing. Maybe, Thought, Will and Feeling discussed in this Stanza represents the spiritual Triad: Atma, Buddhi, Manas. They did not exist before the awakening. B ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0D3FE.1BC7B280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Thursday, May 03, 2001<= /span>

 

 

Dear= B-----a:

 

But ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS (or the immortal and ETERNAL PILGRIM) did EXIST before manifestation began.

 

In Theosophy the concept of the obscuration between Manvantaras -- a Pralaya -= - does not mean a total elimination of everything into nothingness.  That is illogical and Nature woul= d not permit it.

 

The teaching is that these periods called Pralayas are periods of rest and the SPIRITUAL ELEMENT is always AWAKE and supports the rebirth of the whole KOS= MOS and every being in it.  (S.D.= I 27)

 

When Pralaya sets in it is for the Universe like our daily (nightly) sleep.  The spiritual nature is awake (dr= eams) while the BODY SLEEPS.  Daily= the miracle of the return of the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS to its body occurs as we awa= ken.

 

Ther= e is always SOMETHING alive and awake that supports the many cycles of rebirth.<= span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  It is a universal LAW  - KARMA.  It is the group (or Universal) Karma and the Karma of ea= ch individual SPIRIT/SOUL.

 

Dal<= o:p>

 

=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

-----Original Message-----
From: B

= Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:29 PM
To: sd@blavatsky.net
Subject: [bn-sd] Thought , W= ill and other...

 =

But where was the PARENT?
No babe  no PARENT.
A kind of chicken or egg problem , i guess.



It is interesting to see that some interpret the AH_HI as the parent to the=
universal Mind.

I think the meaning of mind changes in SD, which makes it very confusing. <= br>
Maybe, Thought, Will and Feeling discussed in this Stanza represents the spiritual Triad: Atma, Buddhi, Manas.  They did not exist before the <= br> awakening.


B

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0D3FE.1BC7B280-- From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri May 04 05:49:09 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 4 May 2001 12:49:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 40116 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 12:49:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 May 2001 12:49:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.49) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 May 2001 12:49:08 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0251.cvx4-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.146.251]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA12966; Fri, 4 May 2001 05:49:03 -0700 (PDT) To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: belief-structures and theosophy Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 06:46:34 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0D465.F6763020" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0D465.F6763020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friday, May 04, 2001 Re: “Belief structures” Dear M: If “belief structures” are based on observation and the accuracy of those, then they cease being “belief” and become “history.” If it is a “belief” -- mistrust it. If it is “history” verify it. Theosophy is a report on archaic HISTORY up to the present and is on-going even now. It reports on every aspect of the evolving, living Universe both visible and invisible and therefore holds that Nature (which Science investigates) is evidence of Nature’s cooperative interactions. It reports on the Laws and causes for the reincarnation of the Universe and of all lesser Beings in and on it. The SECRET DOCTRINE (book) demonstrates this amply. This needs to be tested by study. There are no valid short-cuts. Each one of us needs to exchange “belief” for KNOWLEDGE. All religions and “belief systems” of today are based on either the true continuation of the theosophic effort or some deviation from it due to the interposition of personal opinions. None of these can be “proved” to any one else, but an approach to their history and current study is always valuable, even if this ends up in proving their errors. The opposite of “belief” is always FACT and KNOWLEDGE. Endless questions show only the suspicion and doubts of the questioner -- one who refuses to analyse and build their own field of KNOWLEDGE. Personal opinions lead to “belief systems.” As such they mislead and are worthless. Best wishes, Dallas ====================================== -----Original Message----- From: m [mailto:mhart@idirect.ca] Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 5:58 AM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: belief-structures and theosophy subject: belief-structures and theosophy On the subject of subjectivity, objectivity, consensus making and Theosophy: I wonder if I might somewhat justifiably (for the sake of rhetorical questioning or theoretical extrapolation of a sort?) see if I might find something worthwhile in a form of tentative separating of those who (whoever they may be) might find themselves (however tentatively?) rather (apparently?) primarily attracted to and emphasizing, (in their thinking and writing), forms of consensus in various "theosophical terms", and those who might find themselves (however tentatively?) rather (apparently?) primarily attracted to (however that may be individually expressed) their (self defined?) "own" reactions and value judgments during their "theosophical studies:" in the sense that there would seem to be (as I see it, at any rate) an interesting interplay between those two (theoretical?) tentative poles, with occasional emphasis being paid to one or the other (even though, of course, "realistically" I suppose we all somehow combine forms of search and forms of consensus). I have the impression that there are those students of Theosophy who, I suspect, rather automatically tend to shy away from those who tend to continually present commentary/posts that would seem to be suggestive of forms of ongoing search/enquiry rather than forms of on-going consensus making: It's as if there were two opposing poles (with many variables in between, of course) represented by (in broader terms expressive of poles?) "search makers," on the one hand, and, on the other hand, "consensus makers;" and apparently the "consensus makers" see themselves, to whatever extent (?), as the guardians of certain "established" or traditional theosophical belief-structures and so, (I suspect), take a rather dim view of those who find much to search/question/extrapolate in those same "accepted" theosophical belief structures, as if those questioners, (like myself?), were the representatives of an Opposing Force of some kind, in some way? At the same time the "search makers" might/would tend to see the "consensus makers" as missing out on a chief interest and value in that same Theosophy: the more-specifically self-relevant self/Self study aspects of it in active combination with the study of VARIOUS "theosophical" writings (the "various" implying the need of forms of self-determination/discrimination). Not that the "search makers" can escape forms of consensus making: as I tend to see it, "thoughts" themselves are forms of consensus making, even if they're the "result" of a "consensus" of "one." (Incidentally, for the sake of consensus making, in a sense, I see myself as rather unjustifiably starting a new paragraph here---something about keeping my paragraphs shorter for the sake "clarity", I think/was told, I think.) Which kind of recognition, of that kind of "individual thought-based" consensus-making, might motivate some to realizations of the importance of self/Self devised efforts, whatever forms those might take: so that attention might be paid to more-specific self-relevant and self/Self related issues, rather than forms of comparatively "external" (or "foreign," to an extent?) Theosophy that may not be in all its aspects particularly relevant to all individuals and their values/motives, even though that "Theosophy" can (potentially, in many cases?) be used as inspirational material, in whatever kind of combined search/consensus mode one might imagine themselves in. Something like that? Mauri --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@earthlink.net List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-13148L@list.vnet.net ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0D465.F6763020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Friday, May 04, 2001

 

        &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   Re:  “Belief structures”

 

Dear= M:

 

 

 

If &= #8220;belief structures” are based on observation and the accuracy of those, then = they cease being “belief” and become “history.”  

 

If i= t is a “belief” -- mistrust it. = ; If it is “history” verify it.

 

 

Theo= sophy is a report on archaic HISTORY up to the present and is on-going even now.<= span style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  It reports on every aspect of the evolving, living Universe both visible and invisible and therefore holds th= at Nature (which Science investigates) is evidence of Nature’s cooperati= ve interactions.

 

It r= eports on the Laws and causes for the reincarnation of the Universe and of all les= ser Beings in and on it.  The SEC= RET DOCTRINE (book) demonstrates this amply.&= nbsp; This needs to be tested by study.&= nbsp; There are no valid short-cuts.&nbs= p;

 

Each= one of us needs to exchange “belief” for KNOWLEDGE. 

 

All religions and “belief systems” of today are based on either the= true continuation of the theosophic effort or some deviation from it due to the interposition of personal opinions.  None of these can be “proved” to any one else, but an ap= proach to their history and current study is always valuable, even if this ends up in provi= ng their errors.

 

The opposite of “belief” is always FACT and KNOWLEDGE.

 

Endl= ess questions show only the suspicion and doubts of the questioner -- one who refuses to = analyse and build their own field of KNOWLEDGE.

 

Pers= onal opinions lead to “belief systems.”  As such they mislead and are worthless.

 

Best wishes,

 

Dall= as

 

=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

-----Original Message-----
From: m [mailto:mhart@idirec= t.ca]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001= 5:58 AM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: belief-structures a= nd theosophy

 =

=  
subject:  belief-structures and theosophy

On the subject of subjectivity, objectivity, consensus making = and Theosophy:   I wonder if I might somewhat justifiably (for the sa= ke of rhetorical questioning or theoretical extrapolation of a sort?) see if I might find something worthwhile in a form of tentative separating of those = who (whoever they may be) might find themselves (however tentatively?) rather (apparently?) primarily attracted to and emphasizing, (in their thinking an= d writing), forms of consensus in various "theosophical terms", and those who might find themselves (however tentatively?) rather (apparently?) primarily attracted to (however that may be individually expressed) their (= self defined?) "own" reactions and value judgments during their "theosophical studies:" in the sense that there would seem to be = (as I see it, at any rate) an interesting interplay between those two (theoretical?) tentative poles, with occasional emphasis being paid to one = or the other (even though, of course, "realistically" I suppose we a= ll somehow combine forms of search and forms of consensus).  =

I have the impression that there are those students of Theosop= hy who, I suspect, rather automatically tend to shy away from those who tend t= o continually present commentary/posts that would seem to be suggestive of fo= rms of ongoing search/enquiry rather than forms of on-going consensus making:&n= bsp; It's as if there were two opposing poles (with many variables in between, o= f course) represented by (in broader  terms expressive of poles?) "search makers," on the one hand, and, on the other hand, "consensus makers;" and apparently the "consensus makers&quo= t; see themselves,  to whatever extent (?), as the guardians of certain "established" or traditional theosophical belief-structures and s= o, (I suspect), take a rather dim view of those who find much to search/question/extrapolate in those same "accepted" theosophical belief structures, as if those questioners, (like myself?), were the representatives of  an Opposing Force of some kind, in some way? = At the same time the "search makers" might/would tend to see the "consensus makers" as missing out on a chief interest and value i= n that same Theosophy: the more-specifically self-relevant self/Self study aspects of it in active combination with the study of VARIOUS "theosophical" writings (the "various" implying the nee= d of forms of self-determination/discrimination).

Not that the "search makers" can escape forms of consensus making:  as I tend to see it, "thoughts" themselve= s are forms of consensus making, even if they're the "result" of a "consensus" of "one."  (Incidentally, for the sake= of consensus making, in a sense, I see myself as rather unjustifiably starting= a new paragraph here---something about keeping my paragraphs shorter for the = sake "clarity", I think/was told, I think.)  Which kind of recognition, of that kind of "individual thought-based" consensus-making, might motivate some to realizations of the importance of self/Self devised efforts, whatever forms those might take: so that attenti= on might be paid to more-specific self-relevant and self/Self related issues, rather than forms of comparatively "external" (or "foreign," to an extent?) Theosophy that may not be in all its aspects particularly relevant to all individuals and their values/motives, = even though that "Theosophy" can (potentially, in many cases?) be used= as inspirational material, in whatever kind of combined search/consensus mode = one might imagine themselves in.

Something like that?
Mauri
 

 
  ---
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------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C0D465.F6763020-- From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri May 04 05:50:05 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 4 May 2001 12:50:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 33282 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 12:50:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 May 2001 12:50:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.49) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 May 2001 12:50:04 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0251.cvx4-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.146.251]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA15521; Fri, 4 May 2001 05:50:02 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re Stemming the Tide of Materialism Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 06:47:39 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C0D466.1C92A860" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001401c0d328$413ad0a0$7eb15fd1@pavilion> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C0D466.1C92A860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Friday, May 04, 2001 Dear Jerry: Whether formed by committee or some other means any body that works in the world to forward the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS has value. It is quite true that owing to politics and partisanship the “societies” have diverged from the ideals H.P.B. had originally set and supported. No one prevents an individual from continuing to work individually or with many so-called Theosophical groups and lists to continue the thread of promulgation as a personal responsibility. Theosophy, if anything teaches the individual to be responsible only to the PRINCIPLES and not to any “authorities.” The sole authority for each is his own HIGHER SELF. The T.S. is a body dedicated originally to study and promulgate the Natural Truths that anyone could discover and prove for themselves. The value of an organization was that individuals could mutually consult and arrive at some joint ideas, which were then to be used (or not) by the INDIVIDUALS. Our KARMA is always INDIVIDUAL. By joining a TS we surrender nothing of our personal responsibilities. The ORIGINAL LITERATURE of Theosophy is due to H.P.B. and the Masters. No interpreters. s a universal LAW p- KARMA.hile the BOD Best wishes, Dallas ================== -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins [mailto:jjhe@netfeed.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:52 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World Re Stemming the Tide of Materialism Thank you so much everyone for the great references. The picture I get is that HPB had certain objectives she was obliged to carry out and tried to do so through the TS. But the TS was formed by committee, and we all know from experience that anything done by committee always turns out differently than what any single member has in mind. jhe Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C0D466.1C92A860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Friday, May 04, 2001

 

Dear Jerry:

 

Whet= her formed by committee or some other means any body that works in the world to forward the ORIGINAL TEACHINGS has value.

 

It i= s quite true that owing to politics and partisanship the “societiesR= 21; have diverged from the ideals H.P.B. had originally set and supported.

 

No o= ne prevents an individual from continuing to work individually or with many so-called Theosophical groups and lists to continue the thread of promulgat= ion as a personal responsibility.

 

Theo= sophy, if anything teaches the individual to be responsible only to the PRINCIPLES= and not to any “authorities.”&nbs= p; The sole authority for each is his own HIGHER SELF. 

 

The = T.S. is  a body dedicated originally to st= udy and promulgate the Natural Truths that anyone could discover and prove for themselves.  The value of an organization was that individuals could mutually consult and arrive at some joint ideas, which were then to be used (or not) by the INDIVIDUALS.  Our KARMA is always INDIVIDUAL.  By joining a TS we surrender noth= ing of our personal responsibilities.

 

The ORIGINAL LITERATURE of Theosophy is due to H.P.B. and the Masters.  No interpreters.  s a universal LAW p- KARMA.hile the BOD

 

Best wishes,

 

Dall= as

 

=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Hejka-Ekins [mailto:jjhe@netfeed.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 200= 1 9:52 AM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.c= om
Subject: Theos-World Re Stem= ming the Tide of Materialism

<= span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> 

Thank you so much everyone for the gr= eat references.  The picture I get is that HPB had certain objectives she = was obliged to carry out and tried to do so through the TS.  But the TS wa= s formed by committee, and we all know from experience that anything done by committee always turns out differently than what any single member has in m= ind.

=  

jhe<= span style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>

=
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C0D466.1C92A860-- From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri May 04 17:43:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 5 May 2001 00:43:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 70050 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 00:43:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 May 2001 00:43:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 00:43:13 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0623.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.154.113]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10047; Fri, 4 May 2001 17:43:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: RE: [bn-sd] Re: Mind is a name given.... Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 18:40:41 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: dalval14@earthlink.net Friday, May 04, 2001 Der Friends: If one studies THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY (H.P.B.)or THE OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY (W.Q.J.) one will discover that the MIND, as a principle and a faculty, is the PERCEIVER and it uses the Personality as an organ of perception. The 5 "Indriya" (senses) of Hindu psychology are divided into 2: There are the senses of reception of the impressions of: Knowledge, perception, awareness ( eyes, ears, nose, touch, etc...) and, There are the powers of action: Thought, feeling, emotion, intuition and action on the lowest, the physical plane. Theosophy views the entire Man as a spiritual being starting with the "ray" of the Universal SPIRIT, its vehicle is BUDDHI or the accumulated WISDOM of past experience in previous bodies (reincarnation, cycles, Karma) The link between those and our Personality (body, astral body, vitality and Kama-desires is through the MIND. The Mind is dual: One half is allied permanently to ATMA-BUDDHI and is called the HIGHER MIND or BUDDHI-MANAS. A thread of consciousness unites this HIGHER MIND at each incarnation with the personality where the Lower Mind in close connection with KAMA--desire resides. Here and now, as humans who are awake and active, (not asleep) we are using the Lower Mind. The Higher mind can be invoked when we (acting as the higher aspect of the Lower Mind (Kama-Manas) aspire to put VIRTUES (universal and impersonal qualities) into consideration and action. That is why BROTHERHOOD is the key to self-improvement. It also points to reincarnation and the common source from which we have all come, and to which we will return eventually, after a very long time. To get a clear view of this refer carefully to KEY and OCEAN. Best wishes, Dallas =========================== -----Original Message----- From: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 8:57 PM To: sd@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-sd] Re: Mind is a name given.... Where does awareness come in? This seems to say that Mind is the same as awareness? Thought, Will, and Feeling give us the ability to be aware? B-----a _________________________________________________ > > > In our study passage, below, it begins: > > > > ===================== > > 3. . . . UNIVERSAL MIND WAS NOT, FOR THERE WERE NO AH-HI (celestial > > beings) TO CONTAIN (hence to manifest) IT (a) > > > > (a) "Mind is a name given to the sum of the states of Consciousness >grouped > > under Thought, Will, and Feeling." (SD I 38) > > ===================== > > _________________________________________________________________ From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri May 04 17:43:22 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 5 May 2001 00:43:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 70354 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 00:43:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 May 2001 00:43:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.12) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 00:43:22 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0623.cvx5-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.154.113]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10415; Fri, 4 May 2001 17:43:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Cc: "AA-Dal" Subject: RE: [bn-basic] RE: The Dual Mind Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 18:40:49 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: From: dalval14@earthlink.net Friday, May 04, 2001 Dear Friend: The duality of the Mind is created by the eternal "fight" between a consciousness of the universal SOURCE (SPIRIT) from which we as mind-beings emanate. [ The S.D. Vol. 1 deals with this in detail.] and the polar opposite of the Universal which is the form limits of our Personality. The concept of the MONAD is therefore important to grasp as SPIRIT and MATTER re forever intertwined. Both of these as separate pole (or point of view) are perceived by the MIND which is innate to the Monad in manifestation. ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS is called the ETERNAL PILGRIM because it never dies. It is as old as the Universe in its earliest manifestation. And it will last till the "endless-end." Our present ideas are generated in the condition where the MIND is embodied in its personality as we all are today. The PERSONALITY consists of "monads of lesser experience'. These cluster around the "advanced MONAD." The Spiritual thus always acts as a mentor or a tutor and is available on request of the Lower Mind (the mind enmeshed in desires -- also called Kama-Manas). The quality of our MOTIVE directs the storage of mental impressions and subsequent choices and actions to either the HIGHER-MIND or the Lower-Mind. Karma originates in the quality of our motives. Motives may be broadly divided into selfless, altruistic, virtuous and universal -- and -- the selfish, persona, isolationist, self-serving and vicious type. One of the most important points of all is that we intuitively KNOW the difference at all times, regardless of our race, religion, politics, etc... We always (every one of us and at all times) have an innate sense of justice and fairness active in us and we know when we choose to be selfish or to take an unfair advantage of others. Why should this be unless there was a constant and unwavering IDEAL always present in the base of our CONSCIOUSNESS ? This sense of truth and justice is called by some "The VOICE OF CONSCIENCE." Theosophy affirms it existence and offers these explanations so that we may assure ourselves of their accuracy and test them IN OURSELVES. Theosophy eliminates the uncertain and insecure mumbo-jumbo of psychology which has only the Personality and the EMBODIED MIND (associated with the brain) to observe and theorize about. Since the electro-magnetic responses of the brain can be recorded as well as other physiological effects (such as involuntary responses, hypnotic regression and memory, REM, etc...) they theorize, without being able to give reason or cause, that the Physical Brain is the real man. Theosophy says this is a fallacy as the physical Man and the Personality are the product of interior forces, Spirit, Wisdom, Thought of an IDEAL nature, will, choice and motive. In man at all times there is a spiritual Self -- it acts as a perceiver. It observes the quality of events as they flow in and around us and it is aware of the physical, psychic, astral, and mental correlations. [ A god article that deals wit this and needs careful study is H.P.B.'s PSYCHIC AND NOETIC ACTION (ULT, H.P.B. Articles, Vol. II, p. 7 -- BCW, Vol. 12, p. 250 -- LUCIFER Oct/Nov 1890) In TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE, Between pp. 66 and 76 (ULT) BCW, Vol. 10, will be found valuable descriptions of this most important psychological division of the Higher and the Lower Mind. In S.D. II 167 H.P.B. indicates the reason for this duality. She calls it there the 2 Egos in man. The Mind is unitary but because of its affinity with either BUDDHI or KAMA it divides itself and present two points of view for us to choose from. Mind is the growing tip of our present evolution. It a puzzle we have to resolve for ourselves. Theosophy provides age-old information found nowhere else. Best wishes, Dallas ================================ -----Original Message----- From: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 8:06 PM To: basic@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-basic] RE: The Dual Mind DO the ideas we hold in the mind gravitate to one side of the dual mind or the other. Or is an idea something that can be held by both the higher and lower mind so to speak? Is it our ideas that activate the higher and/or lower mind? Or is it one of the "two minds" thatdetermines how we see the idea, situation, etc. D---d From dalval14@earthlink.net Sat May 05 04:22:26 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 5 May 2001 11:22:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 13062 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 11:22:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 5 May 2001 11:22:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.85) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 11:22:24 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0047.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [216.244.30.47]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA24944; Sat, 5 May 2001 04:21:57 -0700 (PDT) To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: RE: More Responses to Dallas Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 05:18:42 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net Dear Jerry Merely to say "it is an illusion" does not make it so. If it is an "illusion" then what is the REALITY ? -----Original Message----- From: G S. Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:13 AM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: More Responses to Dallas DTB: NO I mean an IMPARTIAL MIND -- a Mind forced by the INNER RULER to record accurately -- and that requires a great deal of discipline and a totally honest position. JERRY: The Inner Ruler is an illusion or "ray" of something else. OF WHAT ----------------------------------------------- DTB: I am still the UNITARY PERCEIVER. I AM A POINT OF CONSCIOUSNESS, and all sensory input becomes memory -- which I may seek to interpret if the memory persists (as in dreams or trances) AND BRINGS IT ON TO THIS PLANE. JERRY: The I to which you refer above is either the ego or Ego, and both are illusions. OF WHAT ? -------------------------------------- DTB: I cannot assume this plane is the only plane that is real. I must assume that the LAWS of this universe are honest and persist on this, as on other planes. JERRY: I don't assume that any of the 7 planes are "real." The physical plane seems real in the waking state, but then again a dream seems real while dreaming. What is really going on, is not as it appears to our senses. THEN WHAT IS GAINED BY OUR PERCEPTIONS ? ------------------- I also assume that the relationship between other planes of perception and action, and this one, is an ancient arrangement and there are agreements as to relationship. JERRY: We already have corresponding senses on all planes. The cosmic planes may seem strange and mysterious to us, but they are part of our Self and we are actually familiar with them. AGREED DTB: Then there is the question of necessity. At what point is it necessary for me to be able to cross the "abyss" (if any) between planes? If I can perceive a need to do this, then it becomes a duty to learn more about the transition. JERRY: I kind of agree with you, that an inner need is a pre-requisite. ======================================= DTB: IF We VIEW OURSELVES AS THE CENTER OF a Universe in which we share experience as well as materials -- the constant exchange of life-atoms -- then we SHARE "space" and are NOT separate from anything visible or invisible -- our powers presently focused in our material selves are really seen as truncated, whereas they are EXTENSIVE and universal. I think this is why the concept of the UNIVERSAL MAN is evoked. But this sounds almost too material. JERRY: The "sense of separateness" Buddha warned us against has more to do with having a sense of individual selfhood than anything else. When the divine Monad splits into duality, it becomes an I-Not-I Monad which actually is composed of three things: a subjective self, and objective not-self, and a force that relates the two which is called fohat. The self and not-self, or purusha and prakriti, comprise the orginal duality that starts the manvantaric expression going. The self or I part of that is original heresy of separateness that Buddha warns us about. As this I-Not-I Monad self-manifests downward into the planes, the self part becomes atma. So I would equate this original self or sense of selfhood with paratman (literally beyond atman). DTB SEPARATENESS IS NOT OF THE SPIRIT. SEPARATENESS IS OF THE "MATTER" WHICH COMPOSES FORMS. BUT WHY ARE FORMS MADE? If the components of forms are "life-atoms" then the "illusory" and "temporary" situation has the value of raising them to INDIVIDUALITY ( Self-Consciousness) and the next step which they (we) induce is rising to SPIRITUAL SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS. Unless I am much mistaken, Buddha taught that. ================================ DTB: TESTING is a word that means probing for deeper understanding to me. I am convinced that our position in the Universe is not terribly important except to us. However our being here and being able to THINK implies we have wide and deep responsibilities. How can we be sure of these ideas unless we try (mentally) to test them out ? JERRY: OK ================================================= DTB: But, to me, I do NOT dissociate myself (or any human being) from NATURE (using that word to imply all that exists and lives, near and far, on this plane or on any other, from highest to lowest) UNIVERSE and UNIVERSAL covers it for me. The plane or state where MIND is developed and the separation of the Lower from the Higher Manas is one through which every being ultimately goes. It is no novelty except to us who are now experiencing it and its thousands of detours. It is living Karma guided by motive.-- and motive is the Universal difference between good and evil or virtue and vice. -- "right livelihood.," and evil doing. JERRY: I do not dissociate from nature either. In fact, I would call Nature those rules/principles of our life-wave agreement that pertain to our overlapping Not-I's. In short, Nature has to do with the external world that is the other half of our Self. The basic division into self and not-self is an illusion - they are really one. The problem with the word "universal" is that it only pertains to a universe and there are countless universes. The idea that we are all sharing one single universe is part of the illusion, and calling things "universal" helps maintain that illusion. AGREED DTB: Nor do I perceive our living to be a "game" though the Hindus in one sense, considering it as an 'art" speak of the "dance of the Universe" (Tandava Lakshanam) and of the living in it a "leela" or rhythmic dance. These are symbolic ideas -- time, space and motion being harmonized. JERRY: Well, everything and anything one can say about life, ourselves, and the world around us has to be symbolic. Jung has pointed out how the language of archetypes is in symbols, which we each then have to interpret as signs. BTW serious business and a fun game are simply two polar ways of looking at things. AGREED ============================================== DTB: EVERYTHING WITHOUT EXCEPTION ENTERS THE CONTEMPLATIVE and SUBJECTIVE plane Our so called OBJECTIVITY is entirely a matter of memory. JERRY: This Theosophical notion of subjective planes vs objective planes as well as planes of cause and planes of effect are just possible ways of seeing things, not literal truth. Every one of the 7 planes has both subjectivity and objectivity, and both cause and effect, and if you think about it you should be able to realize that you can't have one without the OTHER. AGREED ============================ DTB: The present EXPERIENCE is a most infinitely small division of time as we pass from our PAST into our FUTURE. We always remember the PRESENT. In applying the power of MOTIVE we may view a range of possible "futures" but our selection of any one, and actions performed as a result of selection (mental, emotional, vital and physical) bring into being situations to which KARMA is attached. We can never escape the MORAL consequences of our choices. JERRY: How can I remember the present? So far as I have been able to tell, I can only remember my past. Memory, in fact, IS the past. History and historical undertakings are all about trying to reach a consensus as to what happened in the past. What REALLY happened is absolutely inconsequential because there is no such thing. I used a meditation technique for several years in which I would focus my attention only on the present, forgetting the future and past altogether. When I was able to do this, I discovered that memory itself disappeared. I have already said many times what I think about "moral consequences" and have written articles on moral development and on how morals work. Yes Dallas, we can indeed "escape" our moral consequences. The technique used to do this is called the Path, and it is what liberation is all about. Buddha's 4 Noble Truths tell us that we can, indeed, liberate ourselves from our own karma, and the fact that Theosophy ignores this teaching is one of the main factors that will kill the Theosophcal Movement in the end (my prediction, and you heard it here!) DTB AS FAR AS I KNOW, THE KARMA OF OUR PAST AS A PERSONALITY, LEAVES A DISTORTION IN THE UNIVERSAL HARMONY. KARMA REQUIRES THAT We ADJUST AND RESTORE THAT HARMONY -- HENCE THE "PATH" AND THE 4 NOBLE TRUTHS AS A METHOD OF ACHIEVING THIS. [ Essay on KARMA, at end of LIGHT OF THE PATH is another way of stating this.] BUT IN THEOSOPHY AS FAR AS I KNOW THE PATH AND THE NOBLE TRUTHS ARE FULLY UNDERSTOOD AND SUPPORTED. THE ARE LOGICAL AND NECESSARY. AS I UNDERSTAND IT BUDDHISM IS A PART OF THE THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT -- I MEAN THE ANCIENT ONE -- AND NOT THE RECENT ONE RE-STARTED IN 1875. I DO NOT FIND THE TEACHINGS OF THE BUDDHA DIFFERENT FROM THE THEOSOPHICAL. --------------------------------------------------------- DTB: The use of the word "subjective" in (modern) psychology (is used as a kind of a short-cut), But I think it has not been analyzed as to its source and function. We assign "objective" to tangible things impressions and events -- the "Gnyan indriyas" or powers of perception (again limited to 5 on this plane). The "Karma indriyas," or powers to act are again 5. JERRY: Here is my take on this: Subjective is a word used to define any experience that we have. When we have an experience that is shared by others, we call it objective. Basically, everything is subjective and objectivity is a consensus of certain subjective experiences. All that we can know about life is what we observe through our senses, which are terribly faulty. Our worldview is subjective. Our feelings and emotions are subjective. Our thoughts and ideas are subjective. In a more philosophical view, everything that pertains to our sense of selfhood can be called subjective and everything else can be called objective. Our subjective sense of self and our objective sense of world both merge together in non-duality. AGREED AS EXPLAINED DTB: But the MIND which controls and interprets both is non-material -- shall we then call all mental elements subjective? Also all Kama (desire, passion, emotion, needs and wants) subjective ? What about "vitality" and energy and power of various kinds some of which cane transformed (by the will ?) into physical motion. JERRY: I agree that all mental elements are not subjective. As I said above, each plane contains subjectivity and objectivity. Dreams are experiences on the astral and mental planes, and in dreams we also have a subjective sense of self looking out at an objective world. AGREED ============================================= OLD JERRY: Just to postulate some kind of infallible karmic record of everything that ever happens is meaningless as well as illogical. I don't have your faith. DTB: Not a faith, please. But do you seriously think we can ever "escape" the consequences of what we do in this sensitive universe? JERRY: If someone tells you that akashic records exist, and you have never seen them, then you have to take their existence on faith. I don't see how you can do otherwise. You seem to be in denial when it comes to your faith. Actually I have a great deal of faith in faith. Faith is a good thing. Karmic Consequences: You seem to be taking HPB very literally when she talks about the cycle of necessity and how every cause must produce an effect, and so on. According to this view our fate is to cycle forever. Such a view ignores the possibilty of liberation from karma (jivamukta). No, there is no "escape" in the sense that you seem to be using it. However, karma itself allows for its own transcendence - liberation is an effect, and the Path is the cause. This is probably THE central teaching of Buddhism, and Theosophy seems to ignore it. DTB IF IT IS A FACT THEN THEOSOPHY CERTAINLY DOES NOT IGNORE IT. What does the Jivanmukta do to escape karma? Is it solely his own Karma or the KARMA OF EVERYTHING ELSE that is "escaped ? " W hat is the necessity of "escape?" WHO or WHAT in Man's constitution does the "escaping?" Are we so afraid of pain and suffering, especially of that which we have brought on ourselves by wrong choices in past and present ? HOW LONG DOES THE JIVANMUKTA "ESCAPE" IN TIME? And if this escape occurs, then what happens to the JIVANMUKTA as an Entity ? As I understand it the BUDDHA refused to enter Nirvana and become a JIVANMUKTA. Then what was His reason? Is that given ? Where is HE now ? ========================================= DTB: Why should the Karmic record not be infallible? JERRY: Nothing, not even the Pope, is infallible. DTB THAT IS NOT AN ANSWER THAT I CAN UNDERSTAND. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN MYSTERIES -- as so often the Church terminates questioning in its Catechism: "That is a mystery. Don't ask." I DON'T BELIEVE THAT IN A UNIVERSE OF LAW THERE ARE NO ULTIMATE ANSWERS THAT We CANNOT INTUIT THEM. The Pope I would say is highly fallible. But would you say the BUDDHA is fallible ? My understanding is that he passed out of our levels of illusion into the full light of TRUTH UNIVERSAL -- yet preserved a link intact to our plane of existence (illusion) so as to continue to help us out of our blindness and lack of perception. How else can this be done but by enfranchising the Mind from its illusions of separateness and form-limitation? ==================================== DTB: Is it because we cannot invariably trace effects to causes ? Does our testing (?) prove its fallibility? I think there will be many quid pro quos here. JERRY: Logic is all that is necessary to "prove" its not infallible. Infallible means that it can't make mistakes, that it can't be wrong, that it is always right. As I have said many times, right and wrong are a duality and you can't have one without the other. There is no such thing as always right or always wrong. These two sides of the coin have to go together. DTB AGREED -- SO THERE IS A UNIVERSAL LAW WITHIN WHICH We ALL LIVE AND DEVELOP. ALSO THERE ARE THOSE MEN/MINDS WHO HAVE "ESCAPED" THE ILLUSIONS, BUT HAVE NOT USED THEIR WISDOM TO SELFISHLY "ESCAPE" AND ABANDON THEIR MORE IGNORANT COMPANIONS ? ==================================== DTB: But in a Universe as complex as ours why shold we elect to challenge the idea that it is lawless, or flawed with some laws that work and others that don't ? If it works with clock-work precision in ways we have so far not devised for ourselves to check it, then, it may be an act of faith on our part to decide that karma neither exists nor does it have any exactitude. It's a kind of cul-de-sac -- a paradox -- yet, still we live (Still it turns. -- Galileo) JERRY: Science used to think that the world was a perfect machine and that if we knew enough about it we would know everything. Then relativity, quantum physics, and chaos theory came along, and no scientist believes this any more. Why are Theosophists so far behind modern scientists? The law of dualities says that you can't have one without the other. This law works the same way for the order-chaos duality as it does for all dualities. Each and every piece of our universe has some law and some flaw, some order and some chaos, some existence and some non-existence. DTB AS FAR AS I KNOW THEOSOPHY SPOKE TO THESE THINGS LONG BEFORE SCIENCE RECOGNIZED AND DEMONSTRATED THEM. I SEE THOSE TEACHING IN THE S.D. SCIENCE IS AT LAST CATCHING UP. WHEN THE DISCOVER THE EVER-PRESENT ASTRAL PLANE We WILL BE ABLE TO GO AHEAD A GREAT DEAL MORE. I WOULD SAY THE CONCEPT OF DUALITY INDEED MAKES FOR ILLUSION. BUT THE CONCEPT OF THE UNITING TRIAD MAKES CHAOS INTELLIGIBLE BECAUSE THAT POSITION TRANSCENDS MERE DUALITY. To me dualism has always lacked something: 1. its SOURCE is not considered relevant. 2. the result of duality is not to be found until a uniting base is found established and used to transcend mere divergence and make of it even temporarily a UNITY. However, this makes a Tetraktis -- a 4. The "illusory" entity that undergoes evolutionary experience on many planes is essential to the system. I WOULD SAY WE, FORCED TO FUNCTION (for the present) IN AND THROUGH THIS MATERIAL PLANE ARE DRIVEN TO CONCEIVE OF HIGHER AND MORE STABLE LEVELS. ================================== DTB: The Buddhism I encountered in India (where I spent over 35 years) it is still studied and promoted by the MAHABODHI SOCIETY (as an instance) and by others, made use of both the Pali and the Sanskrit terms -- as IDEAS. Buddhism there rejects nothing, but it tries to consider it and find what the truth really is. Remember the Buddha came as a reformer of Hinduism which had descended in its external practice into black magic -- animal sacrifices, etc... all aimed at personal improvement, benefit and development. JERRY: Agreed. ========================================== The words "spiritual essence" is so slippery that it could mean almost anything. DTB NON-PHYSICAL -- NO FORM -- BASIC, FOUNDATIONAL, TRUE JERRY: Only one plane is physical, the lowest. The other six are all non-physical. The lower three planes contain forms, and the upper four are relatively formless. The upper three planes are spiritual, and I would guess that "spiritual essence" could be the "substance" of any of the 3 upper planes. AGREED ============================== OLD JERRY: What does "pervading space" mean? DTB: LIMITLESS EXTENSION -- FORMLESS -- ALL INCLUSIVE JERRY: But each plane has it own "space." No matter how far space reaches on the physical plane, it will never reach to the astral, and so on. DT As I understand it all planes are inter-related, hence the inter-penetrate. H.P.B. uses the phrase "coadunition but not consubstantiality" [ S.D. I 166 ] ======================================== DTB: Akasa in Sanskrit is translated "sky." In philosophy it is the "vehicle" of SPIRIT. JERRY: This is confusing to me. Spirit is usually considered as objective in the same sense as matter and both matter and spirit are generally used as objective substances on the cosmic planes. How can objective substance have a "vehicle?" G de Purucker, for example, uses vehicle and body interchangeably, which makes sense to me. Consciousness needs a body or vehicle for each plane. But why does spirit need a body? DTB SPIRIT REALLY DOES NOT NEED A BODY. WHY THE UNIVERSE IS MADE UP OF LIFE-ATOMS (monads that reflect the ONE UNIVERSAL MONAD) I DO NOT KNOW. IT HOWEVER MAKES SENSE TO ME LOOKING AROUND THAT ALL "FORMS" WOULD BE COMPOSED OF LESSER ELEMENTS WHICH IN THEMSELVES ARE AS IMMORTAL AND SIGNIFICANT IN TIME SPACE AND MOTION AS ANY OTHER BEING. In other words the Universe is not based on an intelligence that considers "size" (an illusion) as an important factor. Our Human minds involved in FORMS does consider (erroneously) size as important. [Consequently we often think, feel, and act as "bullies." The concept of being a preceptor, tutor, teacher of the young and defenseless, is one widely lacking in our present culture -- though deeply felt as an intuition in most individuals -- but I do not find it lacking in either Buddhism or in Theosophy. To me this is the moral link between all intelligence of whatever kind or position. ======================================= DTB: It is also MAHA-BUDDHI -- WISDOM of accumulated experience, over the immense range of the indefinable "past." Also PRIMORDIAL MATTER -- or Suddha Sattva -- a formless energic substance which forms a link or bridge between SPIRIT-ATMA and all the degrees of Form and limitation. [ See S.D. I 157, II 596.] JERRY: Here again I am confused. Now you bring matter into it, and somehow you want to equate "wisdom" a subjective character, with "matter" an objective character, and this doesn't make sense to me. DTB PRIMORDIAL MATTER is NOT MATTER AS We KNOW IT NOW. IT IS PRIMEVAL AND LASTS AS LONG AS ITS CONTRAST: SPIRIT. AND IS AN EQUAL RADIATION FROM THE EVER INDESCRIBABLE SOURCE -- THE ABSOLUTE. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- DTB: THE concept of VERBUM, WORD, UNIVERSAL MIND, UNIVERSAL PLAN OF MANIFESTATION UNDER KARMA -- in 3 stages unmanifested manifesting, and manifested -- these three bridge the gap between Pralaya and Manvantara -- The old Universe and its child the new one. JERRY: All of this stuff is too much personification for me. I see it as just a bunch of words for God. DTB AGREED THEY ARE WORDS. BUT THEY ALSO CONVEY IDEAS THAT ARE DYNAMIC AND LINK THE MATERIAL CONDITION We ARE IN WITH THE SOURCE OF ALL. THEY ARE DESIGNED TO DESCRIBE THE PASSAGE OUT OF PRALAYA INTO MANVANTARA (AGAIN AS A REINCARNATION OF THE UNIVERSE) OF ALL THE BEINGS THAT PRESENTLY ARE TRAVELING ON "THE PATH." AND PRACTICING THE 4 NOBLE TRUTHS IN SOME WAY. =============================================== DTB: BOTH VIEWS ARE ENTIRELY RECONCILABLE -- THE karmic Skandhas belong to the material side of living and have a cycle that brings them back to the point of "reincarnation" be it a Universe, a World, or a human. Karma is "carried " by them. But they are not separate from SPIRIT. As Monads they co-exist and form the ETERNAL PILGRIM -- a Unit of Life which shares in the ONE SOURCE--SPIRIT, in the ocean of "matter"--BUDDHI and in the continual advance of the MIND -- THE BUDDHAS AND MANUSHIS OF MANKIND. JERRY: Dallas, I am more confused than ever. You say that they can be "entirely reconciled" and then turn right around and talk about monads, and skandhas, and unit of life, and eternal pilgrims, all of which Tzongkapa and his Gelugpas totally reject. I don't see any reconciliation, but rather you seem to be saying that Tzongkapa and the Gelugpas (including the line of Dali and Panchen Lamas) are all wrong. DTB I CAN'T HELP IT IF YOU THINK TSONKHAPA AND OTHERS REJECT THIS CONCEPT. I DO NOT OFFER IT AS A MATTER OF "DOGMA." I THINK THEY UNDERSTAND AND ENDORSE IT. WHY SHOULD THEY NOT? Theosophy recognizes none. I offered it as the explanation Theosophy has offered. I would be entirely surprised to find Tsonkhapa rejecting this idea. ===================================== DTB: I CANNOT CONCEIVE OF ANYTHING WHICH IS NOT DEPENDENT ON CYCLES, and cycles means measured and recurring, analogetic TIME, EVENTS, RESULTS that follow CAUSES, etc... There are three independent dependents as I see it. SPIRIT, MATTER, MIND and as I see it there is also TIME -- but as this is finite, the infinitude of TIME might be called DURATION -- with no divisions any more than space and motion have -- these are the three CONTINUITIES. JERRY: Tzongkapa and his Gelugpas teach that anything that depends for its existence on something else cannot be permanent. DTB Everything depends on the absolute -- WHICH AS source IS THE ULTIMATE BASIS FOR BOTH MANIFESTATION AND NON-MANIFESTATION. They do not arise out of NOTHING. And for no CAUSE. ========================================== In order to have permanent existence, you can't depend on something else but rather must be independent. DTB How can anyone or anything be totally independent ?> we share in so many things, objectively and subjectively? Now I am confused by such an assumption. =========================================== Furthermore, they also teach that anything that comes into existence depending on certain causes and conditions (ie, what they refer to as a dependent arising)is temporary and has only a conventional reality. DTB THOSE "CERTAIN CAUSES AND CONDITIONS" ARE THEY DEFINED ? =========================================== This is rather easy to understand with physical objects, but is perhaps a bit more difficult to understand for mental and spiritual objects. Thus I easily reach the logical conclusion that everything within this 7-plane solar system is temporary and not permanent. For any kind of reconciliation to occur, Theosophy would have to accept this. DTB BUT, AS I SEE IT THEOSOPHY DOES ACCEPT THIS CONCEPT. TO PASS MENTALLY FROM THE SOURCE TO THE LIMITATION OF FORM A NUMBER OF LOGICAL STEPS (IN PLANE AND FORM AS WELL AS INTELLIGENCE) HAVE TO EXIST -- EVEN IF TEMPORARILY. In other words there is something that is PERMANENT which uses the impermanent. How are we to distinguish between the two? Is there any value in the "impermanent ?" If so how is that to be define? ========================================== DTB: If we are to explain our being and existence as THINKERS we have to abandon the idea that our FORM and personality is the only thing that exists. -- and that the whole UNIVERSE is a construct of our wishful thinking. JERRY: I no longer explain my existence as a thinker at all. My existence as a thinker is an illusion. And yes, I do see the universe as my wishful thinking. But then, who is this "my" that I am referring to? DTB IN MY OWN CASE I WOULD LIKE TO FIND OUT THAT ALSO. IF WE SPEAK AND COMMUNICATE THROUGH THESE INSTRUMENTS, then we as subjective entities have an existence that is non material and not to be defined in material terms. We tend to say they are also impermanent, illusory, etc. because we do not know exactly what PERMANENCE is. Yet in our discussion we constantly refer to "We' , and "I" employing those indefinite words to imply a permanency which could only be described as the OBSERVER, or EXPERIENCER. We seem to lack the vocabulary to agree on, but we both record the experience in our own way ========================================== DTB: There are too many of us and with divergent views to make this last very long. JERRY: The universe around us is one of general consensus, a shared realm. That to which we do not share a consensus remains our personal realm. And we each have both. ======================== DTB: But we need not invoke chaos, lack of law and incomprehension for a basis to avoid observing order, effects that follow causes, and some kind of reason for existence and the hope for progress. JERRY: There is no need to invoke anything. Order and chaos are both alive and well in the world. We cannot "avoid observing order" any more than we can avoid observing chaos. AGREED DTB: Surely the Buddha and Tsonkhapa did not advocate pointlessness or uselessness? JERRY: No, that was Lao-tzu and Changtzu, although the Zen teaching of wu comes close enough as well. Mystics teach uselessness, and Tzongkapa, from what I have seen, was not a mystic. DTB MY READING OF LAO-TZE DID NOT MAKE HIM OUT AS USELESS. HE DISCUSSED ULTIMATES -- AND USED THEM AS GUIDES FOR THOSE WHO DESIRED TO FOLLOW THE "PATH" -- AS I RECALL HE WAS A CONTEMPORARY OF BUDDHA. ============================================== DTB: As to modern day Tibetan Buddhist teachers and the Dalai Lama -- they may know their texts, but have they compared them with theosophy ? JERRY: Why should they? I think that this is a job for Theosophists to do, if for no other reason than to demonstrate that Blavatsky knew what she was talking about (Wallace and other modern Buddhist scholars are currently saying that Blavatsky knew nothing of true Buddhism and it is up to us to refute this). DTB MAHAYANA BUDDHISM SEEMS TO BE DIFFERENT FROM THE REST. AS FAR AS I KNOW THE THEOSOPHY OF H.P.B. IS DRAWN FROM THE MAHAYANA. I AM VERY MUCH INFLUENCED BY THE IDEALS THAT ARE RECORDED IN "The voice of the Silence." That is a Mahayana treatise. THERE IS A GAP (not irreconcilable) BETWEEN HINAYANA AND MAHAYANA. As far as I can see Theosophists have to consider, study and reconcile all "religions." None is superior to any other if we consider WISDOM to be universal and impartial. The various religions and philosophical and psychological systems are (as far as I can ascertain) all inter-related, inter-twined and possibly identical in their fundamentals and ideals. I would say that the exponent who followed any GREAT TEACHER made of His/Her words dogmas for which they were not able to derive logical explanations. In other words they limited themselves and did not liberate their minds from the phrases they could understand of the original exponent. Personally I do not find much difference between the original teaching of Buddha and Theosophy and I know that in several places, those who wrote originally on Theosophy, such as H.P.B. and the Masters, speak of the BUDDHA with the most profound respect. There is no reason for the humble followers of either system to do anything but try to understand each other - as we are. =============================================== DTB: If Antique Theosophy is the basis of all the world religions than even Tibetan Buddhism, esotericism, Mahayana, Hinayana, Theravada and other systems can be resolved back into the vast base that a continuous WISDOM RELIGION which needs no name or designation provides. JERRY: While I don't disagree with you, I will remind you that such a "base" must be interpreted by its students, and that perhaps it is in this interpretative process where problems creep in? AGREED DTB: Yes, our present bodies will die and be dispersed -- but much of the real thinking we share persists and forms the new "I" that will arise phoenix like fro the ashes of our soon to come "future." (I just posted some quotes on what theosophy offers on the states of Devachan and Kamaloka which might be of interest to you.) JERRY: I don't disagree with what you say, but I would remind you that this so-called "real thinking" is not permanent, and that the phoenix-like "I" is an illusion. DTB AGREED -- YET FROM LIFE TO. LIFE IT REAPPEARS. AND, IT IS MODIFIED BY LIVING AND THE NATURE OF THE CONTROL We EXERCISE OVER OUR PERSONALITIES. ============================= DTB: in Hinduism the word ATMA is translated SOUL. In theosophy the word "soul" is associated with MANAS (Higher and Lower) In Theosophy ATMA (ATMAN) is used to designate the UNIVERSAL SPIRIT -- impartite and inherent innate in all beings, everywhere, in every plane of space without exception. No "rays," just PRESENCE -- an inescapable BEING. No form of matter however remote or minute escapes the PRESENCE OF ATMA -- the UNIVERSAL SPIRIT -- so says THEOSOPHY. JERRY: I agree that Theosophy's atma is higher than Hinduism's atma. But I also think that atma is an illusion and is not permanent no matter where you want to locate it. It is relatively permanent to us, but relatively fleeting when compared to the divine Monad or the para-atma. DTB Paramatma - IS OF COURSE THE TRANSCENDENT AND PERHAPS IT IS A NAME USED IN THE Hindu PHILOSOPHY TO DESIGNATE THE "ABSOLUTE." =================================== DTB: However if you desire to assign the designation of "rays" to the innate ATMA of every "life-unit" that also is not wrong (from my point of view) . JERRY: I do so desire. On page 435 of G de Purucker's Fountain Source you will see a diagram showing atman as a ray from paramatman (as a Sanskrit scholar, he liked to add a final n). In this figure you will also see atma (alias atman) as the highest part of our auric egg. He says "Paramatman is kosmic or galactic; Atman is cosmic or appurtenant to the solar system" (p 434) In this way, just as our galaxy is part of something bigger, so there is something bigger than even paramatman - the idea of "universe" thus expands infinitely all the way up to "divinity" whatever that is. UNDERSTOOD DTB: But ATMA may not be thereby excluded from anything. Perhaps you use ATMA for SPIRIT in Non -Manifestation and the "rays of Atma" for SPIRIT in Manifestation ? Does that clear up anything ? Theosophy uses the designation ABSOLUTE for that supernal, nameless and formless SOMETHING that ALWAYS IS -- unmodified, timeless, and impartite. Always PRESENT whether there be manifestation or non-manifestation. JERRY: I see spirit and matter as a duality, and so within our 7-plane solar system, and thus both are within manvantaric manifestation. I see atma as somehwere on the upper three planes, and its rays as descending downward into the lower four planes. I see Absolute (personally I dislike the term altogether) as that which is totally outside the whole 7 planes and thus outside of time and space UNDERSTOOD . ===================================== DTB: ANANDA as far as I know, this means the bliss of right action, and hence he was Buddha's favorite disciple -- asking but to help and serve and careless of the lower self. JERRY: Well, there was a disciple named Ananda, but I don't think that this has anything to do with the bliss of spirituality. Ananda as used in Buddhism is not just the joy of right action, but rather the bliss of spirituality. When consciousness rises into any of the three upper planes, there is an overwhelming sense of oneness and bliss. This bliss goes way beyond joy, and is called ecstasy by the Christian mystics who experienced it. DTB ANANDA THE FAVORITE DISCIPLE OF THE BUDDHA is one. But the Sanskrit word "ananda" is also translated joy or bliss. I would say the rising of our "lower" CONSCIOUSNESS into its own Higher Self as the origin of its lower self would reconcile confusion and illusion of perception as the TRUE would make everything clear. But this is not a "sensation" that involves one or other aspects of Kama -- unless it invokes the transcendent Kama as KAMADEVA ( see T. Gloss pp 170-1) =================================== OLD JERRY: We are said to have an anandakosha, a body of bliss or bliss body, DTB: ANADAMAYAKOSHA I believe ( S.D. I 157) Maya still present as a partial illusion and impermanent. JERRY: The term I used is from modern Buddhist translations, and not from Blavatsky whose Oriental terms are largely outdated. In any event, I agree that it is maya because everything in the whole 7-plane solar system including the upper 3 spiritual planes, is maya. If you look at the listings for bodies or sheaths, you will find the Body of Bliss at the top - it is a spiritual body. The bliss experienced in this body has been likened to a whole-body orgasm, and female Christian mystics likened it to having sex with Jesus. My own experiences agree with those views. DTB THE PROBLEM THAT SEEMS TO ARISE WITH US ALL IS NOVELTY Often we think because H.P.B. wrote 125 years or so ago she is "put-darted." I would disagree with this view. I would rather say that she is not studied. The fact is that she was the Masters' Messenger -- are you sure that the Theosophical Mahatmas do not include GAUTAMA THE BUDDHA ? IO find in the ML that they REFER to HIM as a most transcendent ONE, and show Him every respect. The fact that on the transcendent planes all the great teachers are a single body is difficult for us who read current material to understand. It is just as difficult to understand the permanence of the SPIRIT, of the ABSOLUTE, and of PRIMORDIAL MATTER. We seem to ant to divide and isolate them and then reduce them to impotence by saying "ILLUSION." "TRANSITORY." As far as I can see this does not help us get to any real understanding. ========================================= DTB: WITHOUT THE "ETERNAL MONAD" whether Universal terrene or human or even atomic one could not have manifestation. MONAD is also unitary as well as discrete simultaneously -- or it would not be the MONAD. ( S.D. I 174-5 footnote) JERRY: The idea of a discrete self is an illusion, and whether we call it a monad or not doesn't change that. DTB AS FAR AS I CAN SEE THAT MAKES NO SENSE. IF IT IS, IT IS. DENIAL DOES NOT ELIMINATE IT. =================================== DTB: DEPERSONALIZE "GOD," and make of it the universal justice of KARMA or ACTION that follows choice, and we have the operating scheme in time, space and motion. JERRY: Problem here is that I do equate universal karma and God. I can't see any difference. Neither are good teachers, or good parents for that matter, if that is what they are supposed to be doing. Causality certainly does exist, but it doesn't serve to teach us anything because the effect is too long following the cause. Any teacher will tell you that for teaching to be effective the effect must quickly follow the cause. I also believe in acausality because I experience it (and to explain it as God's will or as karma in a past life is no explanation at all). DTB I REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT LINE OF REASONING. IT IS NIHILISTIC AND CONSEQUENTLY ARRIVES AT NEITHER DESCRIPTION, CAUSE NOR EFFECT -- SO OF WHAT VALUE IS IT ? To me its logic is quite unclear. But I would not deny you the satisfaction of having and using it. ============================================= DTB: The Purpose of this universal working being ought to be a CONSCIOUS PERFECTION of VISION and UNDERSTANDING -- called by the Jains KEVAL GNYAN or UNIVERSAL AND TIMELESS CONSCIOUSNESS -- UNIVERSAL WISDOM -- and that is the technical description of a BUDDHA. or of a Tirthankara. JERRY: The technical description of a Buddha, that I am familiar with, is one who has awakened to the truth of what is really going on, and who has omniscience in the sense that he can look at a person and know exactly what best to say and do in order to help that person the most. Our consciousness is already perfect and timeless, and so you seem to be suggesting that the purpose of manifestation is to show us what we already are, and I would agree with that. Now that makes sense -- agreed Best wishes, Dal ====================================== Jerry S. --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: dalval14@earthlink.net List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-13148L@list.vnet.net From ramadoss@infohwy.com Sat May 05 20:29:23 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@infohwy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 6 May 2001 03:29:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 3583 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 03:29:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 May 2001 03:29:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.infohwy.com) (207.90.192.3) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 May 2001 03:29:23 -0000 Received: from senzar (max1-86.max1.sa.infohwy.com [207.90.224.86]) by mail.infohwy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/ryanw-infohwy) with ESMTP id WAA08630; Sat, 5 May 2001 22:40:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20010505222246.00a6adf0@mail.infohwy.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.infohwy.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 22:29:41 -0500 To: theos-l@list.vnet.net, Subject: "Buddha" - Karen Armstrong Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: ramadoss@infohwy.com Little while ago, I accidentally watched a talk by Karen Armstrong - author of a biography "Buddha" on CSpan-2. As one who has been around theosophy, it was a very insightful presentation and I think anyone interested in Buddha and Buddhism would be find it very informative and thought provoking. Karen is a former Catholic Nun who has published several books on Religion and her recent book titled "Buddha" is published by Viking. Her speech was based on her book (which I have not read). Here is an brief abstract of the speech. Armstrong, Karen, Author Ms. Armstrong discussed some of the themes of her biography Buddha, published as part of the Penguin Lives series by Viking. Ms. Armstrong discussed some of the major aspects of Buddha's life and teachings. She placed special emphasis on Buddha's ideas about human suffering, and argued that the Western conception of God is comparable to the Buddhist idea of nirvana. She also argued that the world's major religious traditions are unified in their insistence on the importance of compassion. ____________MKR_____________________ Ps: It is quite possible that the speech would be rebroadcast on Cspan-2 and I do not know when. From DNisk98114@aol.com Sun May 06 07:13:34 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: DNisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 6 May 2001 14:13:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 66687 invoked from network); 6 May 2001 14:13:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 May 2001 14:13:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r12.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.66) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 May 2001 14:13:33 -0000 Received: from DNisk98114@aol.com by imo-r12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.10.) id r.60.e2ee379 (9762) for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 10:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <60.e2ee379.2826b604@aol.com> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:13:24 EDT Subject: Re: Theos-World Digest Number 210\NUN To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_60.e2ee379.2826b604_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10520 From: DNisk98114@aol.com --part1_60.e2ee379.2826b604_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The church , according to a recent radio blurb , is having a "HARD" time with this woman. > Subj: Theos-World Digest Number 210 > Date: 5/6/01 7:24:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > Reply-to: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com > > > > > There is 1 message in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. "Buddha" - Karen Armstrong > From: ramadoss@infohwy.com > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 22:29:41 -0500 > From: ramadoss@infohwy.com > Subject: "Buddha" - Karen Armstrong > > Little while ago, I accidentally watched a talk by Karen Armstrong - author > of a biography "Bud