From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Thu Feb 01 08:06:31 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 1 Feb 2001 16:06:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 73755 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2001 15:59:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2001 15:59:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eagle.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.3) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Feb 2001 15:59:59 -0000 Received: from toetag105 (pc2247.co.la.ca.us [159.83.128.215]) by eagle.co.la.ca.us (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA20546 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2001 07:59:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001201c08c69$2ff87280$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: <3A741EEE.289F150@wisdomworld.org> <006a01c08a94$3143e560$fc81303f@govert> <002901c08ad7$c8a51e40$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> <3A777E01.A4F41856@sprynet.com> <00c301c0897d$b9513c40$bfde603e@FrankReitemeyer> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:07:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Frank, As my young friend lay dying of her severe chronic injuries from a car accident two years ago the potential peace of the event was being disturbed by her different close friends and family members by conflict as to whether or not to force hospitalization and tube feedings, etc, and the police had been called and the suicide prevention team arrived and the hospice group was consulted and the rich benfactors feared being sued and the intermediates got paid well and did their thing . . . it all fell on me to try to help, which I was able to do. Key to the resolution and the harmonization process was the realization that conflict will inevitably arise within those who tune into their souls and do their best; that it is a conflict that can be harmonized raising everyone to a new and higher level of organization and civility IF each is supported to think and love and find healthy motivation and express themselves freely and be heard and attended. This is was done. Peace was achieved on the last two days and all were healed somewhat. There will be conflict between the Intellectual and Intuitive communities, between knowledge and love but there will be harmony and resolution between these great communities and aspects of life. I can see that the conflict between the Helennites and the Aliceites is the continuation of the conflict between the Jewish and Christian point of views. This conflict arises and is perpetuated within the exoteric communities of both and there is unity within the esoteric communites of both. Our higher selves smile lovingly on both of us as one protects and defends and professes the greatest collection of knowlege yet given out into the modern world of thought and the other wishes it to be known that that knowledge-base has been continued, expanded and clarified and includes a large group of mainly artistic and intuitive individuals and groups who do not or can not yet resonate to the deep intellectual, factual, referenced form of Helenna's teaching. I know theosophists who are exploring neo-theosophy and I know neo-theosophists that now might explore theosophy. There are the professors of the sciences, rough and grough and used to fighting, brilliant and discerning, filled with power, rich with knowledge. There are the artists, musicians, the more mystically inclined, ministers, seekers of beauty, mathematicians, intuitives, poets, etc. Then there is the ideal: The Arts and the Sciences together for the advancement of the one Humanity. Manas, Buddhi, and Buddhi-Manas. The two communities are compatible. Each major religion holds dear one aspect of the Whole of life: Intelligent Activity, Love-Wisdom, or Will-Power. The conflict between the Intelligent Activity and Love-Wisdom communities will be harmonized. This harmonization is called human being. Theosophists will heal the breech, first through honest conflict and free unintimidated speech, from the heart, and then through understanding and harmony, cooperation and peace and united divine opposition to those who would separate us from one another. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: > > The Secret Doctrine and Treatise on Cosmic Fire, the latter is not > > acceptable to many intelligent, loving and sacrificing Theosophists, but > it > > is dedicated to Helenna and seems genuine and sincere to me. If Cosmic > Fire > > Eugene, I accept, believe and respect that it is genuine and sincere to me, > but to me it is not. > That it is dedicated to Helena is no proof for me that it is genuine. > The Jesuit Society is dedicated to Jesus, but I can hardly believe they > follow him and his teachings. > Frank > > > > > From bhive@alphalink.com.au Thu Feb 01 13:01:47 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhive@alphalink.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 1 Feb 2001 21:01:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 5920 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2001 20:52:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2001 20:52:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.alphalink.com.au) (203.24.205.7) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Feb 2001 20:52:43 -0000 Received: from t1000 (d27-ds0-ros.alphalink.com.au [202.161.118.154]) by mail.alphalink.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA30638 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:52:42 +1100 Message-ID: <004b01c08c91$a6103340$9a76a1ca@t1000> To: Subject: The Idea of Tsimtsum Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:57:51 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "888" How can there be a place where God is not when God is everywhere? Valentin Tomberg explains this well in his Meditations on the Tarot: "the idea of tsimtsum - the 'withdrawal of God' - of the Lurianic school of Cabala.....the existence of the universe is rendered possible by the act of contraction of God within himself. God made a 'place' for the world in abandoning a region interior to himself." "In other words, in order to create the world ex nihilo, God had first to bring the void itself into existence. He had to withdraw within in order to create a mystical space, a space without his presence - the void. And it is in thinking this thought that we assist the birth of freedom." If this was not so then we would have not been told to pray "Thy Will be done, Thy Kingdom come." If God's Will permeated the world in toto then the world would be perfect, but also there would be no freedom and development. No death also. -Bruce http://www.egroups.com/group/spiritualscience From bhive@alphalink.com.au Thu Feb 01 13:17:40 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhive@alphalink.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 1 Feb 2001 21:17:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 16309 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2001 21:02:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2001 21:02:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ej.egroups.com) (10.1.10.49) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Feb 2001 21:02:30 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: bhive@alphalink.com.au Received: from [10.1.10.116] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Feb 2001 21:02:04 -0000 Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:02:02 -0000 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Great thoughts on the opposites.... Message-ID: <95cisa+8da1@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <57.11041808.27aa4f00@aol.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 607 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 202.161.124.3 From: bhive@alphalink.com.au --- In theos-talk@y..., DNisk98114@a... wrote: > BUT don't get caught in them.We are more than that in our true nature. > Seek to rise above these sayeth a master of wisdom. Hi, I can't see much point in that, saith me. The point of development is _in developing virtue_. The vice is there for a reason. Being the polar opposite it can stimulate the developing virtue. Vice has no other purpose. Example: if there were no poverty in the world there would be no need for charity i.e. the need brings the virtue into the world. Cheers, Bruce http://spiritweb.org/Spirit/elderbrothers-l.html From ambain@ambain.screaming.net Thu Feb 01 21:41:12 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ambain@ambain.screaming.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 05:41:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 38301 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 05:41:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 05:41:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mk-smarthost-1.mail.uk.worldonline.com) (212.74.112.71) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 05:41:11 -0000 Received: from ppp-3-210.5800-3.access.uk.worldonline.com ([62.64.140.210] helo=Alan) by mk-smarthost-1.mail.uk.worldonline.com with smtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 14OYxx-000J5w-00 for theos-talk@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 02 Feb 2001 05:41:02 +0000 Message-ID: <009c01c08cda$9fc7bb40$dd94403e@Alan> To: "Theos Talk" Subject: Theory Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:10:11 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "Alan" Bruce, quoting Valentin Tomberg. writes: "In other words, in order to create the world ex nihilo, God had first to bring the void itself into existence. He had to withdraw within in order to create a mystical space, a space without his presence - the void. And it is in thinking this thought that we assist the birth of freedom." I cannot see this as anything other than speculative theory. Has the author been privy to the innermost workings of the mind of God? And how does he define the terms "God" and "ex nihilo" in context (or even out of context)? The "names" of God in Hebrew, from which tradition the above ideas emanate, are variants of "Eternal Being," or "That Which Is" - none of which is anthropomorphic, and to which human ideas of intent or desire are difficult to assign. Theosophy, including Kabbalist theosophy, is part of what used to be called the Occult *Sciences* - which require that evidence should accompany theories and assertions. Alan http://www.soft.net.uk/ambain/ Simply Occult and stuff From teos9@aol.com Fri Feb 02 02:11:23 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Teos9@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 10:11:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 51533 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 10:11:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 10:11:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r06.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.6) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 10:11:22 -0000 Received: from Teos9@aol.com by imo-r06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.ad.661208c (17079) for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:11:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 05:11:18 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Great thoughts on the opposites.... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 130 From: teos9@aol.com In a message dated 2/1/2001 7:54:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, bhive@alphalink.com.au writes: > --- In theos-talk@y..., DNisk98114@a... wrote: > > BUT don't get caught in them.We are more than that in our true > nature. > > Seek to rise above these sayeth a master of wisdom. > > Hi, > I can't see much point in that, saith me. The point of development > is _in developing virtue_. The vice is there for a reason. Being the > polar opposite it can stimulate the developing virtue. Vice has no > other purpose. > > Example: if there were no poverty in the world there would be no need > for charity i.e. the need brings the virtue into the world. > > Cheers, > Bruce > Bruce, Am I missing something? I thought poverty was the opposite of wealth, pure and simple. Who says one is vice and the other virtue? Charity, it seems to me is a compassionate response of our higher nature which can and should be made equally, to the wealthy as well as the poor. >The vice is there for a reason. Being the > polar opposite it can stimulate the developing virtue. Vice has no > other purpose. What about it's role of simply providing freedom of choice to an evolving species in its journey to enlightenment. Karma regulates the action of inappropriate choices, not the duality's. Louis From DNisk98114@aol.com Fri Feb 02 06:42:56 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: DNisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 14:42:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 59422 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 14:42:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 14:42:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r09.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 14:42:32 -0000 Received: from DNisk98114@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.59.65cc2a7 (3984) for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:42:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <59.65cc2a7.27ac214c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:42:20 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Digest Number 120 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_59.65cc2a7.27ac214c_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10502 From: DNisk98114@aol.com --part1_59.65cc2a7.27ac214c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/2/01 5:05:20 OM !! Eastern Standard Time, theos-talk@yahoogroups.com writes: > Hi, > I can't see much point in that, saith me. The point of development > is _in developing virtue_. The vice is there for a reason. Being the > polar opposite it can stimulate the developing virtue. Vice has no > other purpose. > > Example: if there were no poverty in the world there would be no need > for charity i.e. the need brings the virtue into the world. > > Cheers, > Bruce > > --part1_59.65cc2a7.27ac214c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/2/01 5:05:20 OM !! Eastern Standard Time,
theos-talk@yahoogroups.com writes:


Hi,
  I can't see much point in that, saith me. The point of development
is _in developing virtue_. The vice is there for a reason. Being the
polar opposite it can stimulate the developing virtue. Vice has no
other purpose.

Example: if there were no poverty in the world there would be no need
for charity i.e. the need brings the virtue into the world.

Cheers,
Bruce

http://spiritweb.org/Spirit/elderbrothers-l.html


 --part1_59.65cc2a7.27ac214c_boundary-- From DNisk98114@aol.com Fri Feb 02 06:54:16 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: DNisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 14:54:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 90834 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 14:53:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 14:53:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d07.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.39) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 14:53:43 -0000 Received: from DNisk98114@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.16.84980d6 (3984) for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:53:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <16.84980d6.27ac23ec@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:53:32 EST Subject: A real trial...... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_16.84980d6.27ac23ec_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10502 From: DNisk98114@aol.com --part1_16.84980d6.27ac23ec_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =A0=A0 I can't see much point in that, saith me. The point of development=20 is _in developing virtue_. The vice is there for a reason. Being the=20 polar opposite it can stimulate the developing virtue. Vice has no=20 other purpose. Example: if there were no poverty in the world there would be no need=20 for charity i.e. the need brings the virtue into the world. Cheers, Bruce http://spiritweb.org/Spirit/elderbrothers-l.html =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- --- Well, here's the point , my friend, A master does say:" Love G'D above all= =20 things , and treat thy neighbor as thyself." Looking beyond is in the first part(look carefully and you might see it ,bu= t=20 , don't go too fast) and the "supposed" virtues and vices are inherent in the second part. and G'D meaning LAW , theosphically speaking , is the focus of the Soul who= =20 has given himself over to patient trying. --part1_16.84980d6.27ac23ec_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,
=A0=A0 I can't see much point in that, saith me. The point of developme= nt=20
is _in developing virtue_. The vice is there for a reason. Being the=20
polar opposite it can stimulate the developing virtue. Vice has no=20
other purpose.

Example: if there were no poverty in the world there would be no need=20
for charity i.e. the need brings the virtue into the world.

Cheers,
Bruce

http://spiritweb.org/Spirit/elderbrothers-l.html

           &nbs= p; 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------

---

Well, here's the point , my friend, A master does say:" Love G'D above = all=20
things , and treat thy neighbor as thyself."

Looking beyond is in the first part(look carefully and you might see it= ,but=20
, don't go too fast)

and the "supposed" virtues and vices are inherent in the second part.
and G'D meaning LAW , theosphically speaking , is the focus of the Soul= who=20
has
given himself over to patient trying. --part1_16.84980d6.27ac23ec_boundary-- From DNisk98114@aol.com Fri Feb 02 07:12:33 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: DNisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 15:12:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 7499 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 15:11:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 15:11:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r15.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.69) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 15:11:39 -0000 Received: from DNisk98114@aol.com by imo-r15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.22.11617eae (3984) for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:11:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <22.11617eae.27ac2825@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:11:33 EST Subject: And yet again,,virtue and vice... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_22.11617eae.27ac2825_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10502 From: DNisk98114@aol.com --part1_22.11617eae.27ac2825_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And yet again "OUR" first parts having immense implications as even unto Lucifer is pointed to by H.P.B. as having tremendous signifigance in ALL our lives as it leads to a patient care of the Soul and it's doings in the "here and now , while still , in point of fact , never losing sight of our "Original" first part which is: Love G'D above all things, in other words going beyond the opposites is always to be kept in view by the patient striver ie: SOUL Hope is there for all who so choose. --part1_22.11617eae.27ac2825_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And yet again "OUR" first parts having immense implications as even unto
Lucifer is pointed to by H.P.B. as having tremendous signifigance in ALL our
lives as it leads to a patient care of the Soul and it's doings in the "here
and now , while still , in point of fact , never losing sight of our
"Original" first part which is: Love G'D above all things, in other words
going beyond the opposites is always to be kept in view by the patient
striver ie: SOUL
Hope is there for all who so choose. --part1_22.11617eae.27ac2825_boundary-- From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Feb 02 12:44:17 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 20:44:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 40966 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 20:36:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 20:36:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 21:37:45 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0539.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.246.29]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA17813; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:36:37 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World And yet again,,virtue and vice... Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:36:58 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0013_01C08D14.D57EE760" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <22.11617eae.27ac2825@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C08D14.D57EE760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit February 2, 2001 Dear Friends: Two “We’s” seem to work in and through us. The Higher or BUDDHI-MANAS (the honest, sincere, wise MIND) seeks the ways of brotherhood and cooperation. The Lower KAMA-MANAS (the selfish, isolated, territorial mid) seeks to dominate, convince, and confuse -- it lives isolated and to reinforce its supremacy it tries to label others in terms of its concepts of reality -- which are not universal. At lease this seems to be the case as I see it, Dallas ================================== -----Original Message----- From: DNisk98114@aol.com [mailto:DNisk98114@aol.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 7:12 AM To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Theos-World And yet again,,virtue and vice... And yet again "OUR" first parts having immense implications as even unto Lucifer is pointed to by H.P.B. as having tremendous signifigance in ALL our lives as it leads to a patient care of the Soul and it's doings in the "here and now , while still , in point of fact , never losing sight of our "Original" first part which is: Love G'D above all things, in other words going beyond the opposites is always to be kept in view by the patient striver ie: SOUL Hope is there for all who so choose. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C08D14.D57EE760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

February 2, 2001=

 

Dear Friends:

 

Two = “We’s” seem to work in and through us.  The Higher or BUDDHI-MANAS (the honest, sincere, wise MIND) seeks th= e ways of brotherhood and cooperation. = ; The Lower KAMA-MANAS (the selfish, isolated, territorial mid) seeks = to dominate, convince, and confuse -- it lives isolated and to reinforce its supremacy it tries to label others in terms of its concepts of reality -- w= hich are not universal.

 

At l= ease this seems to be the case as I see it,

 

Dall= as

 

=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

-----Original Message-----
From: DNisk98114@aol.com [mailto:DNisk98114@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2= 001 7:12 AM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.c= om
Subject: Theos-World And yet again,,virtue and vice...

 =

And yet again "OUR" first p= arts having immense implications as even unto
Lucifer is pointed to by H.P.B. as having tremendous signifigance in ALL ou= r
lives as it leads to a patient care of the Soul and it's doings in the "here
and now , while still , in point of fact , never losing sight of our
"Original" first part which is: Love G'D above all things, in oth= er words
going beyond the opposites is always to be kept in view by the patient
striver ie: SOUL
Hope is there for all who so choose. =

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C08D14.D57EE760-- From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Feb 02 12:45:09 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 20:45:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 78759 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 20:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 20:37:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 20:37:21 -0000 Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12765 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:36:33 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0539.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.246.29]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA17457; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:36:31 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: [bn-basic] "older students of Theosophy"??? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:36:49 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net Friday, February 02, 2001 Dear Mauri: If we are immortal MONADS there are no "older" or "newer" students here. If you mean relative to the age of our personality this incarnation then a time scale is possible but then, each of us studies at different rates and chooses the areas of our improvement and growth of knowledge. So "age" really has nothing to do with it. A 15 year old may have read and studied more of THEOSOPHY than a 50 year old who has read cursorily through the Secret Doctrine, and is in position to shuffle many ideas without having settled in his Mind what is useful or definite. We are the only ones who settle Karma on ourselves, whether for good or ill. If another seems to be a channel for some kind of Karma to precipitate, it is not their "fault" but, is basically ours for having set up the CAUSES. It may be their fortune or misfortune to be in the chain of events. It still remains our RESPONSIBILITY as to how we REACT. "Watch out" ought to be further qualified with the words "for the kind of emotions you then allow to come out." At such times one either balances the Karma or permits to roll on incomprehended and accumulating more or less of the "same" to it. It is helpful if one reads Chapter 11 in the OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY -- W. Q. Judge; and, KEY TO THEOSOPHY by H.P.B pp. 99 - 163.198-215. Articles by W.Q.J. FRIENDS OR ENEMIES IN THE FUTURE W.Q.J. Articles I p.92 MORAL LAW OF COMPENSATION ditto p. 127 ADVANTAGES & DISADVANTAGES IN LIFE ditto p. 138 CYCLIC IMPRESSIONS AND THEIR RETURN ditto p. 159 [ all in the 2 Vol. Set of W.Q.J. Articles published by ULT and available at BLAVATSKY.NET] I hope this may help, Dallas ============================== -----Original Message----- From: Mauri [mailto:mhart@idirect.ca] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 6:16 AM To: basic@blavatsky.net Subject: [bn-basic] "older students of Theosophy"??? RE: [bn-basic] head winds of theosophic simplexity Thu, 1 Feb 2001 06:31:14 -0800 From: "Mauri" who wrote, in part: '. . . the various "older students", collectively, ought to be regularly consulted about the simplexic aspects of the "basics."' ========== But, having received some comments from A STUDENT OF THEOSOPHY, how is one to know/decide something about the "age level" of the contributor, and thereby something about the "age level" of the contribution? It would seem that we all have to ask ourselves that question and then, for better or worse, deal with the repercussions of our own answer: That would seem to be part of how Karma is specifically applicable to each of us. So while, (presumably), Karmic workings might be complex and simplexic, and impossible to time, there might be some consolation in the notion (?) that, one way or another, sooner or later, there might be a Karmically appropriate response to our enquiries, attitudes, efforts, etc. (Sorry about the word "might" in that last sentence: but being a "younger" student, I have to admit that I really don't Know any better. I've been "told" this and that but, "unfortunately", I have not yet acquired a means of "more-directly knowing"---or "Knowing"---anything much in a Knowing way.) And so, presumbably, it's the QUALITY of our own efforts at interpretation of WHATEVER we get, (and the quality of our efforts at applying those interpretations, however tentative they may be, to our own situations and relevance), from whoever, that goes toward getting (as per the relevant Karmic processing) more and more RELEVANT (or relevant quality) responses from more and more "older" students. A less wordy version of the above: WATCH OUT! Something like that? Mauri --- Current topic is at http://www.blavatsky.net/talk/bnbasic/basicSyllabus.htm You are currently subscribed to bn-basic as: [dalval14@earthlink.net] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-bn-basic-6660818H@lists.lyris.net From dalval14@earthlink.net Fri Feb 02 12:48:15 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 20:48:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 32863 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 20:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 20:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 20:36:45 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0539.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.246.29]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA18120; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:36:41 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Theory Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:37:02 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <009c01c08cda$9fc7bb40$dd94403e@Alan> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net February 2, 2001 Dear Friends: H.P.B. wrote a most interesting article on this subject named LAMAS AND DRUZES THEOSOPHIST for June 1881 It deals with the relations of the secret sects across Asia-Minor with their ancient roots in Tibet. Also Included are the permutations of the NAME. ( Published by THEOSOPHY COMPANY in H.P.B. Articles III 281... Best wishes, Dallas ======================= -----Original Message----- From: Alan [mailto:ambain@ambain.screaming.net] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:10 PM To: Theos Talk Subject: Theos-World Theory Bruce, quoting Valentin Tomberg. writes: "In other words, in order to create the world ex nihilo, God had first to bring the void itself into existence. He had to withdraw within in order to create a mystical space, a space without his presence - the void. And it is in thinking this thought that we assist the birth of freedom." I cannot see this as anything other than speculative theory. Has the author been privy to the innermost workings of the mind of God? And how does he define the terms "God" and "ex nihilo" in context (or even out of context)? The "names" of God in Hebrew, from which tradition the above ideas emanate, are variants of "Eternal Being," or "That Which Is" - none of which is anthropomorphic, and to which human ideas of intent or desire are difficult to assign. Theosophy, including Kabbalist theosophy, is part of what used to be called the Occult *Sciences* - which require that evidence should accompany theories and assertions. Alan http://www.soft.net.uk/ambain/ Simply Occult and stuff From bhive@alphalink.com.au Fri Feb 02 13:03:26 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bhive@alphalink.com.au X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 2 Feb 2001 21:03:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 32238 invoked from network); 2 Feb 2001 20:55:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Feb 2001 20:55:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.alphalink.com.au) (203.24.205.7) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Feb 2001 20:55:43 -0000 Received: from t1000 (d08-ds1-ros.alphalink.com.au [202.161.118.200]) by mail.alphalink.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA26307 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 07:55:38 +1100 Message-ID: <006901c08d5b$3ba0ace0$c876a1ca@t1000> To: Subject: St.Francis Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 07:58:58 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "888" Here is a few words on St. Francis: "FRANCIS WAS NOT a gentle man; being cumbersome in build, seasoned by several small wars, content to be a soldier and travel abroad, content also as a labourer whose coarse hands could hold a bird. This is to be mentioned because the familiar and the true may speak with a sense to all: a common sense which does teach us of the manner to which we may begin at the outset to ponder the reality of any truth. Quite often it is that an advancing man becomes so capable of abstractions and specifications that he mistakes the familiar as to be a commonalty which is so well comprehended afore time, that as a fruit sucked dry, shall offer nothing more. Great art speaks to us from the two points intersecting: Inspirational (downward pointing triangle) Familiar (upward pointing triangle) For we are marveled not by Heaven alone, but that she should enter into our World and all we know there! If one pictured St. Francis to be a bony man, lithe and feeble, they should mistake the great relevance he personally saw out by his commanding relationship to all - bird, beast and man - who did know him. Great organisers are rarely, if ever, feeble about their task. The men and women who were inspired by his constancy, were awed by his purposefulness, forthright and decisive. That portion of his day he spent given to his Lord and Master was no less determined in its demands. How bold to ask! And though nine-parts humble, how presumptuous (and rightly so) that a man goes to God with the complete expectation of winning audience! But bold as it is, this is the way it's to be. It happens that so many fall to severe and uneasy fortunes, and in those periods of desperate frustration a man may more readily pray with intensity. Cutting to the quick he may begin to really ask determinedly. For so often the boat drifts and steers hither and thither - as the saying goes - where the wind blows the sails, and all the time the man concerned is inwardly disorientated, regretting the journey. However, come the time when circumstance persuades his fiery will to ignite self-action, he may once again regain his necessary ego-qualification. It is of tremendous sadness to approach a soul who is devastated beyond 'spark and spirit'. Some are but temporarily ruined and shall return to their rightful place in true manhood; and then there are those within a lifetime that have 'forgotten' themselves - the stray lambs - who have begun to revert back into the other kingdoms in subjugation. To be blatantly wilful is not, on its own, commendable. We are empowered to instigate great and marvelous happenings. All men are equipped to apply their virtue actively, and yet the ideas expire before their execution. Progressively however, our expectations heighten and as long as we are unabashed by short-term failure we do successfully implore the powers with exacting definition and artistry. No man truly deserves sorrow and hardship. No man truly deserves to take his place closer to God than another, and yet it is that in both there is truth that it is, deservedly or not. Although abrupt and demanding, Francis did not come to the spiritual realities of the essential characters he bore relation to, by demanding or commanding or designing this be so: that his way be their way. He came to each and every one in love through the overgrown path and the little gate of their familiar habitats. To the birds he became as bird, to the doe he became as fawn; and masterfully so." The Familiar & the Divine -Bruce http://spiritweb.org/Spirit/elderbrothers-l.html From amerman@theosophy.net Fri Feb 02 18:29:44 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: amerman@theosophy.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 02:29:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 94613 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 02:29:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 02:29:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO clapton.siteprotect.com) (64.26.0.53) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 03:30:48 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (sc-24-24-207-110.socal.rr.com [24.24.207.110]) by clapton.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA27836 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 20:29:42 -0600 Message-ID: <027101c08d89$43806da0$6ecf1818@socal.rr.com> To: Subject: Cambria Gathering 2001 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:30:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_026E_01C08D46.34F0D740" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Wes Amerman" ------=_NextPart_000_026E_01C08D46.34F0D740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SEVENTH ANNUAL THEOSOPHICAL GATHERING, CAMBRIA, CALIFORNIA, USA=20 August 11 & 12, 2001=20 All students of Theosophy and inquirers are cordially invited to attend the= =20 Seventh Annual Gathering in Cambria, CA, on August 11 & 12, 2001.=20 The topic for the weekend is:=20=20 =20 THEOSOPHY -- ANCIENT WISDOM FOR MODERN TIMES A public meeting will be held on Saturday, August 11, from 2:00 to 4:00 p.m= .=20 at the Joslyn Recreation Center, 950 Main Street, Cambria. A brunch and in= formal=20 discussion will follow on Sunday, August 12 at 10:00 a.m. at the Hospitalit= y=20 House, 305 Pembrook, across from Shamel Park. Also, the Hospitality House= =20 will be open to all visitors during the week of August 6-12.=20 A Web site for the Cambria event can be found at: http://www6.bcity.com/the= osophy/cambria.html and includes more information on the area, lodging, tra= nsportation, event times, etc.=20=20 =20 This is a very popular vacation spot, so plan ahead and make lodging and tr= avel reservations as early as possible. Cambria is on Route 1, about midwa= y between Los Angeles and San Francisco or San Jose. The nearest local air= port is San Luis Obispo. We hope to see old friends there and meet new ones, gathering together in t= he=20 spirit of Unity and Brotherhood, continuing the tradition of the annual=20 Gatherings in Brookings.=20 =20 For further information, contact Phyllis Ryan at zoloft@mindspring.com or L= inda Smith at TheoLinArt@aol.com Please feel free to pass this invitation along, and share it with whomever = you might think would be interested.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_026E_01C08D46.34F0D740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
SEVENTH ANNUAL THEOSOPHICA= L=20 GATHERING, CAMBRIA, CALIFORNIA, USA
August 11 & 12, 2001

Al= l=20 students of Theosophy and inquirers are cordially invited to attend the=20
Seventh Annual Gathering in Cambria, CA, on August 11 & 12, 2001.=20
The topic for the weekend = is: =20
 
THEOSOPHY -- ANCIENT WISDO= M FOR=20 MODERN TIMES

A public meeting will = be held=20 on Saturday, August 11, from 2:00 to 4:00 p.m.
at the Joslyn Recreation= =20 Center, 950 Main Street, Cambria.  A brunch and informal
discussio= n=20 will follow on Sunday, August 12 at 10:00 a.m. at the Hospitality
House= , 305=20 Pembrook, across from Shamel Park.  Also, the Hospitality House
wi= ll be=20 open to all visitors during the week of August 6-12.

A Web sit= e=20 for the Cambria event can be found at: http://www6.bcity.com= /theosophy/cambria.html and includes=20 more information on the area, lodging, transportation, event times, etc.&nb= sp;=20
 
This is a very popular vac= ation=20 spot, so plan ahead and make lodging and travel reservations as early as=20 possible.  Cambria is on Route 1, about midway between Los Angeles and= San=20 Francisco or San Jose.  The nearest local airport is San Luis=20 Obispo.

We hope to see old fri= ends=20 there and meet new ones, gathering together in the
spirit of Unity and= =20 Brotherhood, continuing the tradition of the annual
Gatherings in Brook= ings.=20

 
For further information,=20 contact Phyllis Ryan at zoloft@mindspring.com or Lin= da=20 Smith at TheoLinArt@aol.com
 
Please feel free to pass this invitation along, and share it with whom= ever=20 you might think would be interested.
 
------=_NextPart_000_026E_01C08D46.34F0D740-- From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Feb 02 22:05:51 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 06:05:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 28745 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 06:05:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 06:05:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 06:05:50 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.a5.1116328a (3971) for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:05:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:05:44 EST Subject: Re: [jcs-online] Science and Religion: The Artificial Tempest To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com The following essay was copied from a letter written to the Journal of=20 Consciousness Studies online forum. It had no signature but came from=20 fc@eleusis.com, forwarded through jcs-online@yahoogroups.com.=20 I thought it might be useful to share with students of theosophy, since it= =20 appears to be in conformance with many of the ideas about religion and=20 science discussed by HPB and WQJ. Incidentally, the "interdisciplinary" Journal whose subtitle is=20 "controversies in science & the humanities," although peer reviewed, is qui= te=20 willing to give an equal platform in their online forum to both religious=20 (theosophical) as well as scientific thought. It may be of interest to=20 advanced students that of late there have been several online scientific an= d=20 philosophical dialogues referring to Buddhist and Hindu philosophies relate= d=20 to consciousness. In addition, although carefully monitored, for the past 7= =20 years they have accepted and archived many of my letters using arguments=20 culled from theosophical teachings, as well as related to the ABC theory=20 which contradicts the majority academic scientific view that consciousness = is=20 an epiphenomena or quantum effect of the brain's neurology. FYI, the lates= t=20 edition of the quarterly Journal (Volume 7, No. 11/12 - 2000) entitled,=20 "Cognitive Models and Spiritual Maps," had the subtitle, "interdisciplinary= =20 Explorations of Religious Experience."=20 LHM =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D As the ongoing battle between creationism and evolutionary theory continues= =20 to be waged, especially within the confines of school boards across the US,= =20 we could easily believe that there is an inherent conflict between a belief= =20 in God and a belief in science. Yet a contest between these two disciplines= =20 has not always existed, nor is there really a conflict today. Rather the=20 perceived contest is the product of a distorted view of religion that we ha= ve=20 created in the Western world. In order to put this false tempest in perspective, we need only remind=20 ourselves that some of our most imminent scientists have expressed a belief= =20 in a divine force. They do not see themselves as opposed to religion, rathe= r=20 they see their work, in Stephen Hawking's phrase, as an attempt to "peer=20 inside the mind of God." But that is not the mainstream view of science tha= t=20 is held by many of the members of our society. In fact, our society tends t= o=20 see the scientist as rigorously logical and the religious as simple-minded.= =20 While it is certainly arguable that many of those who profess fundamental=20 beliefs most loudly are less well-educated (and are also irritatingly=20 impenetrable to logic), many with strong beliefs are both educated and=20 intelligent.=20 They simply draw an artificial line around the "truths" of their religion a= nd=20 refuse to allow science to cross them. The essential problem that creates this appearance of conflict is a confusi= on=20 of the quite different realms in which religion and science should operate.= =20 Science deals with the realm of physical reality=E2=80=93with gravity, elec= tricity,=20 quantum mechanics, chemistry, et al. Religion deals with what might be term= ed=20 "spiritual reality," that is, those things that have to do with the human=20 spirit and psyche, with the meaning of life itself, with individual and=20 social values, and with myth. How these realms became confused is a story=20 grounded hundreds of years ago in the early history of Christianity in the= =20 West. But the story needs to begin a bit earlier than that in order to=20 provide perspective. Science and the scientific method were invented by the ancient Greeks in th= e=20 context of a society that was far more religious than our own. One has only= =20 to look at the number and prominence of the temples of Greece to see the=20 position that religion held in their society.=20 Where we might put a capitol building, they built a temple. Initiation into= =20 the mysteries at Eleusis was an important part of the life of the men who l= ed=20 Athens in its Golden Age. The Greeks did not find the pursuit of science to= =20 be at odds with religion, as they had no static dogma to block or to confli= ct=20 with scientific inquiry. For them, the universe was the handiwork of the=20 gods. To discover more about it was to know more of the gods. To the Greeks= ,=20 as well as to many other ancient cultures, the differing sides of the mind,= =20 the logical and the spiritual, were complimentary. Each had its own sphere = of=20 operation, and each met different human needs. Moving forward to Roman times, the definition of religion and its place in= =20 society are made even clearer. It is from Latin that the term "religion"=20 springs. The Latin word religio is specifically related to the root "lig" (= to=20 bind). Religio means a "reverence for the gods." The term was also used to= =20 mean "the rites and ceremonies, as well as the entire system of religion an= d=20 worship" (from Lewis and Short). It is also related to obligatio, or social= =20 and personal obligation. Religion was therefore something that tied the=20 people of Rome together.=20 Ancient Rome was a city and culture highly devoted to technological=20 achievement. Roman innovations defined the basic concepts of engineering an= d=20 architecture. The first textbook of engineering was written in ancient Rome= .=20 Yet it was also a highly religious culture, with the ceremonies and holiday= s=20 of the gods assuming a position in society far beyond what religion does=20 today. Each household had its gods and representations of them. There was n= o=20 concept of the separation of church and state. The religion of Rome was=20 linked to the politics of the city.=20 Because of the manifold concept of their religion, they had little trouble= =20 identifying the gods of other, conquered cultures with their own gods. Much= =20 of the final shape of the Roman religion was given to it by their adoption = of=20 the traditions of the Greek pantheon that had preceded it. This state of affairs changed drastically in the third and fourth centuries= ,=20 culminating in the establishment of Christianity as the official religion o= f=20 Rome. Belief in the old gods was waning in those years and fewer and fewer= =20 people were linked together by the old religion. Numerous cults, including= =20 the ones of Mithra and Christ, were being followed by Romans. These religio= ns=20 did not add to the old religion, rather they separated themselves from the= =20 older practices. Recognizing the social need for a religion to link the=20 various facets of his society together, the emperor Constantine chose=20 Christianity as the official religion of the Empire. With that one decision= =20 the entire religious substrate of the Western world was changed.=20 Christianity was in flux at the time of Constantine's declaration. It was n= ot=20 a religion that had established it belief patterns. Competing views were he= ld=20 by peoples who were all nominally Christian. Councils were called (the most= =20 prominent of which was Nicea) to define what was and wasn't Christianity.=20 Those who fell outside of these beliefs were heretics.=20 They were converted or punished. While the sword of doctrinal purity was=20 first used against Christians who differed in their belief patterns, it was= =20 later expanded, through the Office of the Inquisition, to oppose all=20 non-Christian faiths.=20 This establishment of dogma was a critical step in changing the nature of=20 religion. Instead of bringing people together, it split them apart. Dogma w= as=20 used to define those who were pure, i.e., those who espoused the officially= =20 sanctioned version of Christianity, and those who were not. Religion had lo= st=20 the relaxed form that it had held for centuries, when myth was more importa= nt=20 than dogma. (One has only to look at Celtic myth to see the rather freeform= =20 approach to religion of Indo-European polytheism.) In Greek and Roman=20 religion, it was not unusual to select one god who was considered the divin= e=20 patron of a household or family. So one religion with many gods could be=20 viewed in many ways.=20 Dogma did have its political reasons in Christianity, but it is important t= o=20 note that a dogmatic definition of religion is a normal feature of a certai= n=20 type of monotheistic faith, the type that espouse a principle of evil as we= ll=20 as one of good. Christianity and Islam are representative of this type. It = is=20 unfortunate that monotheism tends to this type of faith. The single god of= =20 monotheism usually assumes the role of the all powerful and all knowing. If= =20 he is so powerful and knowing, then how can one explain the presence of evi= l?=20 The simplest answer is to create a balancing Lord of Darkness, as was done = by=20 the earliest of these religions, Zoroastrianism. This God-Devil dichotomy=20 remains a significant feature in conservative Christianity. From this=20 dichotomy comes a necessity to separate the godly from the not godly,=20 therefore tests of faith and articles of faith (dogma) are created. The=20 dogmatic principles that were used to test faith did, on some occasions,=20 bleed over into the physical sciences. Mary was no longer "symbolically" or= =20 "mythically" a virgin. She was actually a virgin.=20 Western Christianity did not stop with the creation of spiritual dogma that= =20 only occasionally spread into the sciences. From its self conception as bei= ng=20 the "possessor of truth" it expanded the concept of its own sphere of=20 knowledge. In doing so, it reached into areas that did not concern the huma= n=20 spirit, but concerned physical reality. For centuries this created little=20 problem, as the church was the possessor of much of the scientific research= =20 that had been done by the Greeks and Romans. But, as the sciences were agai= n=20 reborn in the West, the church found itself in conflict with Galileo and=20 Copernicus, whose experiments and observations challenged the pronouncement= s=20 of the church. The church had placed the earth at the center of the Univers= e,=20 as man was the beloved of God. Unfortunately, the universe had not been=20 informed of this decision and had relegated us to circling a middling sun=20 that was placed in a rather rural portion of the galaxy. So the battle line= =20 between Western Christianity and the sciences was drawn many centuries ago.= =20 Evolution versus creationism is only the current battle. The other battles,= =20 such as the one the church fought to maintain the belief that the sun circl= ed=20 the earth, were lost long ago. The point is that conflict between science and traditional Christianity onl= y=20 appears to be a conflict between religion and science. The problem is that= =20 Christianity often does not function as a religion. The objective of creati= ng=20 a spiritual and mythic experience is secondary to its desire to enforce=20 adherence to dogma. Christianity has therefore replaced the mythic core of= =20 religion with a dogmatic one. Myth, those charming stories we are all told = to=20 take "figuratively" is no longer included in the teaching of religion. As=20 conservative Christianity wastes its energy on battles with the=20 ever-expanding knowledge of science, it pays less and less attention to the= =20 spiritual needs of its followers. Even the more mainstream components of=20 Christianity have lost the ability to meet the needs of its devotees as it= =20 has seen its scope reduced by science.=20 As its dogma has been undermined, it has not been able to adapt and instea= d=20 has retreated in to vagueness and homilies. Its irrelevance has been=20 succinctly pointed out by The Right Reverend John Shelby Spong, the retired= =20 Bishop of Newark (NJ, US). Western society is on short rations when it comes to meeting our spiritual= =20 needs, primarily because we have lost sight of a correct perception of=20 religion. The counterfeit currency of a dogmatic religion, concerned with=20 promoting its dogma over fact, has debased the entire currency of religion.= =20 As a result, the critical psychological needs that religion answers=E2=80= =93the sense=20 of place, the search for meaning, and a binding moral center=E2=80=93are no= longer=20 met.=20 As a child, I was fortunately exposed to myth as well as to Christianity.=20 Today when I see someone who needs help and try to remember the inherent=20 nobility and worth of every human life, it is not my Christian upbringing=20 that sustains me. Rather it is an old tale about Zeus and Hermes, disguised= =20 as poor peasants walking along a road. Rich house after rich house turned=20 them away as they asked for food and shelter. But one old couple, with bare= ly=20 enough food to sustain themselves, took pity on the poor travelers and gave= =20 them what they could. Of course, the old couple's rewards were immense. But= =20 that childhood lesson, that I should not judge the merit of a person from=20 what you see of him, has remained with me. And Prometheus, Aphrodite,=20 Achilles, and Ulysses are in my memory as well. I learned loyalty from=20 Ulysses' dog, devotion from his wife, and nobility of sacrifice from=20 Prometheus. I learned that even the most invulnerable had best not be too=20 arrogant, since we all have an "Achilles' heel."=20 The purpose of religion is to elevate the nobility of spirit within mankind= =20 and to teach us that there is justice in the universe. This purpose is met = by=20 myth, n=C3=A5ot by dogma. Or, in Joseph Campbell's words, myth does not pro= vide=20 the meaning of life, it provides the "experience of being alive." Arguing=20 creationism against evolution has nothing to do with the validity or power = of=20 religion. As a believer, I am not concerned with denying evolution's truth.= =20 The gods had the right to shape the universe in whatever time and in whatev= er=20 manner they chose.=20 From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Feb 02 22:10:45 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 06:10:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 23064 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 06:10:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 06:10:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r07.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.7) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 07:11:49 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id j.11.f536134 (3971) for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:10:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <11.f536134.27acfabd@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:10:05 EST Subject: Re: [bn-basic] the "silver platter" connection? To: basic@blavatsky.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com Mauri, I hope you understand that my opening comments in my last post was not meant as a criticism, but, speaking for myself, as a way of indicating why I find it difficult to answer any if your your posts properly unless I can pin them down to direct questions with respect to theosophical principles or to methods of study. Your "talking to yourself" and "cleansing" as you put it, by what appears to be making off the wall tentative guesses and apparently rambling speculations -- makes it very difficult to follow your lines of thought and formulate them into direct questions that can be answered concisely and clearly for the benefit of all theosophical students participating in these forums. Also, you always seem, in your roundabout tentative manner of writing, to appear to answer all your own questions (whether correctly or not -- who knows?) -- which then creates other questions that are very difficult to pin down exactly what it is you actually know and understand, or are trying to clarify or find out. I suppose it's okay to handle your personal mind clearing, or "cleansing" as you call it, in the manner you do, but I don't think it helps anyone else for you to use an open forum (that is devoted to studying theosophy as it was originally taught) to "wash your laundry" so to speak... Since, all that does (considering that your complex wordy and speculative jargon appears on the surface to be more profound than it actually is) is make theosophy more difficult to understand, and possibly, quite misleading and confusing to other new students who are looking for cogent and useful answers to their own unspoken questions -- not speculative guesses that can only add to their confusion. I suppose that's why whoever does respond to your missiles, Dallas for instance, can only do so by quoting teachings directly from the SD... Which, apparently, you rarely seem to respond to directly... And, if so, by adding more tentative speculations and "guessings" that don't seem to have any direct relationships to the answers given. This is what gives one the impression that you may be fishing for someone to do your in-depth studying for you, and have the "inner teachings" (meaning, "intuitive insights," which can only result from such a deep study combined with *private* meditation) "handed to you on a silver platter" so to speak. I'm sorry, but that's the impression that your rambling, tentative and speculative style of writing gives me... And, I suspect, others who also may find it difficult to engage in any sort of meaningful or direct dialogue with you. In any group study (which is what these bn online forums essentially are), it is far better for a beginning student to listen to the teacher's answers to the questions of others (in this case, after first studying and considering the basic texts such as the SD, the Key and the Ocean, as well as the letters offered in the online study forums by more advanced students) and meditate on these teachings and answers thoroughly... And then (and only then) ask pertinent questions whenever there is something in particular not understood or that needs further clarification. Or, if one does find a new truth or insight, offer it in answer to another student's question, or directly ask the group or a specific advanced student-teacher if it's a correct interpretation. On the other hand, continually rambling on in long tentative speculations, using intricately woven theosophical jargon as almost incoherent streams of consciousness that may or may not be theosophically correct -- serves no purpose in helping and teaching others (which is the goal of theosophical study and knowledge gained by such study)... And, besides such confusing mental ramblings being difficult to read, hard to follow, and to figure out what are actual statements of theosophical truth and what are not -- can become a waste of much time -- especially for those who follow and participate in a number of different online forums. In your recent post (that also includes repeats of two previous posts which are too long for me to quote here), the only other questions I find is; How does "coadunate" and "consubstantial" -- (referring to the statement of HPB, that all fields of consciousness, related to the seven fold nature of both the Universe and of Mankind, are "coadunate but not consubstantial") -- relate to the use of the word "coenergetic" in the theory of ABC? The answer is that the Astro Biological Coenergetics (ABC) theory of transcendental (spiritual, mental) and physical field interactions, and their ability to transform electro- (and astro-) magnetic energy and their holographically encoded sensory information from one field to another (i.e., coenergetically) -- is based on that statement of HPB, as well as on innumerable Secret Doctrine references that inspired the theories of relativity, quantum physics and the newest theories of Superstrings/M-branes -- which synthesizes all the previous classical and modern scientific theories and is closest to the metaphysical *zero-(laya-) point* field concepts of theosophy (as further explained by ABC theory in relation to visual perception). See some of these SD scientific references at: http://users.aol.com/unIwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html Also, see the symbolic chakrafield diagram that may be helpful in understanding the analogy and correspondence relationships between the theosophical principles and the ABC field theory: http://members.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html I hope this answers some of your implied questions that I was able to understand. LHM ABC theory is outlined at: http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics/ In a message dated 01/29/01 9:38:45 AM, mhart@idirect.ca writes: >subject: the "silver platter" connection? > >RE: >subject: Re: complexity of theosophic "basics" >Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 06:06:54 EST >From: leonmaurer@aol.com > >who wrote, in part: > >You take such an awful lot of words to express >your thoughts, which are not only "diffuse" but >sometimes so contradictory that one finds it >difficult figuring out how to respond. (Although >lately, I notice it's improved somewhat.:-) But >you certainly can ask the right question -- which, >in this case I boil down to; Why can't theosophy >be expressed in other terms or other symbols that >can make it's inner complexity more evident to >those that do not wish to search for the answers >within themselves by their own "self defined and >self determined efforts"? > >Of course, aside from the indictment that you >would like to have the inner teaching handed to >you on a silver platter -- actually, in one respect, >you have already answered your question. >==============snip > >Dear Leon, > >Which, what kind of "indictment", Leon, re "silver >platter" by who, where, in what sense, in what context, >referring to what specifically? > >Except for that beginning part of your post, (which I'm >still trying to figure out), the rest of your post came >across agreeably . . . though I'll have to read it again. > >If we were to THOROUGHLY CONSIDER the >validity of everything we say, then I would tend to think >that the time-factor alone would make much of BN >discussions rather difficult: In my case , at any rate, I >can theoretically see myself CONSIDERING many >theosophic subjects so long that, by the time I'd feel >"sure enough" (whatever that means), after many >life-times, possibly, of what to say or write, these BN >Forums might not be around any more. (Snip) >Leon, I wonder if you could kindly let me know what >kind of SPECIFIC reasoning of yours, based on which >SPECIFIC statements of mine, led you to write: " . . . >indictment that you would like to have the inner teaching >handed to you on a silver platter --?" From leonmaurer@aol.com Fri Feb 02 22:13:01 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: LeonMaurer@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 06:13:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 91359 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 06:13:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 06:13:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r16.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.70) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 06:13:00 -0000 Received: from LeonMaurer@aol.com by imo-r16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.6d.ef9780f (3971) for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:12:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6d.ef9780f.27acfb64@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:12:52 EST Subject: Re: Response to Gene To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 28 From: leonmaurer@aol.com In a message dated 02/01/01 5:08:55 PM, ecarpent@co.la.ca.us writes: >It seems that one has a potential point but without space it can't appear. >Let the circle be the spacious expression of that point and then the point >can appear central to it. If I were some non-dimensional potential observer >and had the desire to appear I'd need some abstract space first and then >I could appear central to that space. I'm seeing that Parabrahm, like a >potential point first is expressed as Space(mulaprakriti) and then and only >then can appear, the central point within that Space. Here one has the >non-dimensional point appearring within the dimensional Space. The unity >of the two is the whole. Hermetic philosophy or theosophy holds that Space is all there is. Therefore, Space is either manifest or unmanifest, and there cannot be such a concept as "no space." It follows that there must always be an abstract laya or zero-point around which Space must exist... Since, as theosophy also teaches, there can never be any cessation of motion -- whether such motion is represented as the objective (metric) cyclic movement of energy within the manifest space, or as the abstract (non-metric) cyclic motion (pure "spinergy") within the Absolute "mother" Space, or Paramartha (which includes Parabrahm) in Paranishpanna -- it confirms the adage, as the Buddha said, "No-thing comes from nothing." Also, since abstract motion can only be equated with non-dimensional spin, and since spin can only be equated with an endless and beginningless movement of absolute abstract space having zero diameter, there must always be a central, *unmoving* or "static" point of zero (0) dimension around which both the manifest motion (circular) and the abstract motion "spin" is cyclically *moving* (turning or spinning) around." Therefore the abstract zero-point, as is the Space surrounding it (whether manifest or unmanifest) must be both everywhere and nowhere (locally and nonlocally) *existent* throughout all eternity -- i.e., whether it is in temporal objective motion or in eternal abstract motion of infinite duration. This static (inertial) point of zero dimension around which all motion must occur (and be always tied to), then, is the only possibility that can justify the unequivocally theosophical statement, that "the center of the universe is everywhere and its circumference is nowhere." Thus, the Abstract Origin remains forever existent as both a zero-point (of absolute inertia), and as *spin* (of infinite energetic force or "spinergy") around that point -- whether the Cosmos is manifest (Brahma) or unmanifest (Parabrahm). This confirms the avatar Krishna's (representing Parabrahm) statement in the Bhagavad Gita, "I established this whole universe with a single portion of myself, and remain separate." Therefore Space, in its dual aspects of both static zero-points and energetic motion rooted in spin, no matter what its state or condition, whether manifest or unmanifest, temporal or timeless, objective or abstract, is always some-thing that can be *grasped* or *imagined* either intuitively or rationally by our "dual mind." Long and deep meditation on these abstract and, in some sense, inherently logical ideas can result in a profound conviction of such facts. (Although, no "proof" in a reductive or objective scientific sense can ever be shown that could unequivocally convince another.) However, some of the abstract mathematics that underlie the current multidimensional Superstring/M-brane theories have come relatively close to "proving" or, at least, verifying the theosophical teachings. LHM From compiler@wisdomworld.org Sat Feb 03 00:40:36 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 08:40:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 88984 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 08:40:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 08:40:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.rdc1.md.home.com) (24.2.2.66) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 08:40:35 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([24.3.34.114]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010203083951.QBUN10139.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@wisdomworld.org> for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:39:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3A7BC3D7.E6E21646@wisdomworld.org> Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 03:39:49 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: [jcs-online] Science and Religion: The Artificial Tempest References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Compiler Leon, As I was reading your posting, which introduced the one you brought over from the other forum, both of which are below mine, this 2-part article came to mind as being useful additional material on the subject for the reader to have access to: Compromise in Science and Religion (Part 1 of 2): http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/compromiseone.html Compromise in Science and Religion (Part 2 of 2): http://www.wisdomworld.org/setting/compromisetwo.html John DeSantis (Compiler) You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html ------- leonmaurer@aol.com wrote: > The following essay was copied from a letter written to the Journal of > Consciousness Studies online forum. It had no signature but came from > fc@eleusis.com, forwarded through jcs-online@yahoogroups.com. > > I thought it might be useful to share with students of theosophy, since it > appears to be in conformance with many of the ideas about religion and > science discussed by HPB and WQJ. > > Incidentally, the "interdisciplinary" Journal whose subtitle is > "controversies in science & the humanities," although peer reviewed, is quite > willing to give an equal platform in their online forum to both religious > (theosophical) as well as scientific thought. It may be of interest to > advanced students that of late there have been several online scientific and > philosophical dialogues referring to Buddhist and Hindu philosophies related > to consciousness. In addition, although carefully monitored, for the past 7 > years they have accepted and archived many of my letters using arguments > culled from theosophical teachings, as well as related to the ABC theory > which contradicts the majority academic scientific view that consciousness is > an epiphenomena or quantum effect of the brain's neurology. FYI, the latest > edition of the quarterly Journal (Volume 7, No. 11/12 - 2000) entitled, > "Cognitive Models and Spiritual Maps," had the subtitle, "interdisciplinary > Explorations of Religious Experience." > > LHM > > ========================== > > As the ongoing battle between creationism and evolutionary theory continues > to be waged, especially within the confines of school boards across the US, > we could easily believe that there is an inherent conflict between a belief > in God and a belief in science. Yet a contest between these two disciplines > has not always existed, nor is there really a conflict today. Rather the > perceived contest is the product of a distorted view of religion that we have > created in the Western world. > > In order to put this false tempest in perspective, we need only remind > ourselves that some of our most imminent scientists have expressed a belief > in a divine force. They do not see themselves as opposed to religion, rather > they see their work, in Stephen Hawking's phrase, as an attempt to "peer > inside the mind of God." But that is not the mainstream view of science that > is held by many of the members of our society. In fact, our society tends to > see the scientist as rigorously logical and the religious as simple-minded. > While it is certainly arguable that many of those who profess fundamental > beliefs most loudly are less well-educated (and are also irritatingly > impenetrable to logic), many with strong beliefs are both educated and > intelligent. > > They simply draw an artificial line around the "truths" of their religion and > refuse to allow science to cross them. > > The essential problem that creates this appearance of conflict is a confusion > of the quite different realms in which religion and science should operate. > Science deals with the realm of physical reality–with gravity, electricity, > quantum mechanics, chemistry, et al. Religion deals with what might be termed > "spiritual reality," that is, those things that have to do with the human > spirit and psyche, with the meaning of life itself, with individual and > social values, and with myth. How these realms became confused is a story > grounded hundreds of years ago in the early history of Christianity in the > West. But the story needs to begin a bit earlier than that in order to > provide perspective. > > Science and the scientific method were invented by the ancient Greeks in the > context of a society that was far more religious than our own. One has only > to look at the number and prominence of the temples of Greece to see the > position that religion held in their society. > > Where we might put a capitol building, they built a temple. Initiation into > the mysteries at Eleusis was an important part of the life of the men who led > Athens in its Golden Age. The Greeks did not find the pursuit of science to > be at odds with religion, as they had no static dogma to block or to conflict > with scientific inquiry. For them, the universe was the handiwork of the > gods. To discover more about it was to know more of the gods. To the Greeks, > as well as to many other ancient cultures, the differing sides of the mind, > the logical and the spiritual, were complimentary. Each had its own sphere of > operation, and each met different human needs. > > Moving forward to Roman times, the definition of religion and its place in > society are made even clearer. It is from Latin that the term "religion" > springs. The Latin word religio is specifically related to the root "lig" (to > bind). Religio means a "reverence for the gods." The term was also used to > mean "the rites and ceremonies, as well as the entire system of religion and > worship" (from Lewis and Short). It is also related to obligatio, or social > and personal obligation. Religion was therefore something that tied the > people of Rome together. > > Ancient Rome was a city and culture highly devoted to technological > achievement. Roman innovations defined the basic concepts of engineering and > architecture. The first textbook of engineering was written in ancient Rome. > Yet it was also a highly religious culture, with the ceremonies and holidays > of the gods assuming a position in society far beyond what religion does > today. Each household had its gods and representations of them. There was no > concept of the separation of church and state. The religion of Rome was > linked to the politics of the city. > > Because of the manifold concept of their religion, they had little trouble > identifying the gods of other, conquered cultures with their own gods. Much > of the final shape of the Roman religion was given to it by their adoption of > the traditions of the Greek pantheon that had preceded it. > > This state of affairs changed drastically in the third and fourth centuries, > culminating in the establishment of Christianity as the official religion of > Rome. Belief in the old gods was waning in those years and fewer and fewer > people were linked together by the old religion. Numerous cults, including > the ones of Mithra and Christ, were being followed by Romans. These religions > did not add to the old religion, rather they separated themselves from the > older practices. Recognizing the social need for a religion to link the > various facets of his society together, the emperor Constantine chose > Christianity as the official religion of the Empire. With that one decision > the entire religious substrate of the Western world was changed. > > Christianity was in flux at the time of Constantine's declaration. It was not > a religion that had established it belief patterns. Competing views were held > by peoples who were all nominally Christian. Councils were called (the most > prominent of which was Nicea) to define what was and wasn't Christianity. > Those who fell outside of these beliefs were heretics. > > They were converted or punished. While the sword of doctrinal purity was > first used against Christians who differed in their belief patterns, it was > later expanded, through the Office of the Inquisition, to oppose all > non-Christian faiths. > > This establishment of dogma was a critical step in changing the nature of > religion. Instead of bringing people together, it split them apart. Dogma was > used to define those who were pure, i.e., those who espoused the officially > sanctioned version of Christianity, and those who were not. Religion had lost > the relaxed form that it had held for centuries, when myth was more important > than dogma. (One has only to look at Celtic myth to see the rather freeform > approach to religion of Indo-European polytheism.) In Greek and Roman > religion, it was not unusual to select one god who was considered the divine > patron of a household or family. So one religion with many gods could be > viewed in many ways. > > Dogma did have its political reasons in Christianity, but it is important to > note that a dogmatic definition of religion is a normal feature of a certain > type of monotheistic faith, the type that espouse a principle of evil as well > as one of good. Christianity and Islam are representative of this type. It is > unfortunate that monotheism tends to this type of faith. The single god of > monotheism usually assumes the role of the all powerful and all knowing. If > he is so powerful and knowing, then how can one explain the presence of evil? > The simplest answer is to create a balancing Lord of Darkness, as was done by > the earliest of these religions, Zoroastrianism. This God-Devil dichotomy > remains a significant feature in conservative Christianity. From this > dichotomy comes a necessity to separate the godly from the not godly, > therefore tests of faith and articles of faith (dogma) are created. The > dogmatic principles that were used to test faith did, on some occasions, > bleed over into the physical sciences. Mary was no longer "symbolically" or > "mythically" a virgin. She was actually a virgin. > > Western Christianity did not stop with the creation of spiritual dogma that > only occasionally spread into the sciences. From its self conception as being > the "possessor of truth" it expanded the concept of its own sphere of > knowledge. In doing so, it reached into areas that did not concern the human > spirit, but concerned physical reality. For centuries this created little > problem, as the church was the possessor of much of the scientific research > that had been done by the Greeks and Romans. But, as the sciences were again > reborn in the West, the church found itself in conflict with Galileo and > Copernicus, whose experiments and observations challenged the pronouncements > of the church. The church had placed the earth at the center of the Universe, > as man was the beloved of God. Unfortunately, the universe had not been > informed of this decision and had relegated us to circling a middling sun > that was placed in a rather rural portion of the galaxy. So the battle line > between Western Christianity and the sciences was drawn many centuries ago. > Evolution versus creationism is only the current battle. The other battles, > such as the one the church fought to maintain the belief that the sun circled > the earth, were lost long ago. > > The point is that conflict between science and traditional Christianity only > appears to be a conflict between religion and science. The problem is that > Christianity often does not function as a religion. The objective of creating > a spiritual and mythic experience is secondary to its desire to enforce > adherence to dogma. Christianity has therefore replaced the mythic core of > religion with a dogmatic one. Myth, those charming stories we are all told to > take "figuratively" is no longer included in the teaching of religion. As > conservative Christianity wastes its energy on battles with the > ever-expanding knowledge of science, it pays less and less attention to the > spiritual needs of its followers. Even the more mainstream components of > Christianity have lost the ability to meet the needs of its devotees as it > has seen its scope reduced by science. > > As its dogma has been undermined, it has not been able to adapt and instead > has retreated in to vagueness and homilies. Its irrelevance has been > succinctly pointed out by The Right Reverend John Shelby Spong, the retired > Bishop of Newark (NJ, US). > > Western society is on short rations when it comes to meeting our spiritual > needs, primarily because we have lost sight of a correct perception of > religion. The counterfeit currency of a dogmatic religion, concerned with > promoting its dogma over fact, has debased the entire currency of religion. > As a result, the critical psychological needs that religion answers–the sense > of place, the search for meaning, and a binding moral center–are no longer > met. > > As a child, I was fortunately exposed to myth as well as to Christianity. > Today when I see someone who needs help and try to remember the inherent > nobility and worth of every human life, it is not my Christian upbringing > that sustains me. Rather it is an old tale about Zeus and Hermes, disguised > as poor peasants walking along a road. Rich house after rich house turned > them away as they asked for food and shelter. But one old couple, with barely > enough food to sustain themselves, took pity on the poor travelers and gave > them what they could. Of course, the old couple's rewards were immense. But > that childhood lesson, that I should not judge the merit of a person from > what you see of him, has remained with me. And Prometheus, Aphrodite, > Achilles, and Ulysses are in my memory as well. I learned loyalty from > Ulysses' dog, devotion from his wife, and nobility of sacrifice from > Prometheus. I learned that even the most invulnerable had best not be too > arrogant, since we all have an "Achilles' heel." > > The purpose of religion is to elevate the nobility of spirit within mankind > and to teach us that there is justice in the universe. This purpose is met by > myth, nåot by dogma. Or, in Joseph Campbell's words, myth does not provide > the meaning of life, it provides the "experience of being alive." Arguing > creationism against evolution has nothing to do with the validity or power of > religion. As a believer, I am not concerned with denying evolution's truth. > > The gods had the right to shape the universe in whatever time and in whatever > manner they chose. From runamoks@hotmail.com Sat Feb 03 05:00:15 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: runamoks@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 13:00:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 99561 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 13:00:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 13:00:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.149.15) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 13:00:15 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 05:00:15 -0800 Received: from 206.100.232.11 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 03 Feb 2001 13:00:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [206.100.232.11] To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: unsubscribe Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 08:00:14 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2001 13:00:15.0166 (UTC) FILETIME=[4042EDE0:01C08DE1] From: "Art Morgan" _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From info@blavatskyarchives.com Sat Feb 03 07:18:15 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 15:18:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 20891 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 15:18:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 15:18:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.35) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 16:19:19 -0000 Received: by mail01.san.yahoo.com (5.1.056) id 3A68A325022D81EF; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 07:11:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3A6693A40000CF2F@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 08:11:23 -0700 In-Reply-To: Subject: The lotus growing out of Vishnu's navel Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com To: sd@blavatsky.net, sd@blavatsky.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" Does any student see a relationship between the symbols shown in Illustration 3: http://blavatskyarchives.com/Pictureisworthathousandwords3.htm and the lotus growning out of Vishnu's navel? See Illustration 2 http://blavatskyarchives.com/Pictureisworthathousandwords2.htm In the Illustration of Vishnu, what represents the circle without the dot? What represents the Circle with the dot? And is there a geometrical figure that represents Brahma sitting on the lotus?=20=20 Daniel --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES --------------------------------------- http://blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatskyarchives.com/esotericworld.htm http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our main site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From sanctius@mail.com Sat Feb 03 07:27:34 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: sanctius@mail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 15:27:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 94327 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 15:27:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 15:27:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.kolumbus.fi) (193.229.0.37) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 16:28:37 -0000 Received: from SANCTIUS (mg58m1tli.dial.kolumbus.fi [212.54.14.58]) by smtp2.kolumbus.fi (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA19938 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:27:31 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <200102031527.RAA19938@smtp2.kolumbus.fi> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Just testing... Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 15:28:44 GMT Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sanctius_J=E4rvenp=E4=E4_Finland?= Reply-To: sanctius@mail.com References: <981189491.336.90289.l10@yahoogroups.com> In-Reply-To: <981189491.336.90289.l10@yahoogroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-From: sanctius@mail.com (Sanctius) From: sanctius@mail.com I wonder how advanced initiate must be to pass following, quite simple yet practical test? 1) I pick a random book and a random page and underline a random phrase. I close the book. 2) I pick up the phone and call my friend, who I think is an initiate of such high standing, that she shall gladly show me some benefits of spiritual unfoldment. 3) I ask her "I have something to ask, just for a joke, but can you recall what phrase I just underlined from a book of mine?" I have a feeling that initiates of third degree[1] or higher can attune to peoples soul and therefore have access to all information that has ever been experienced by a human being in earth's sphere. [1] With Nth inititation I mean the definition written by Bailey/DK. -- http://profiles.yahoo.com/sanctius From john@micronuts.com Sat Feb 03 07:35:58 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: john@micronuts.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 15:35:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 73430 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 15:35:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 15:35:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca) (24.201.245.36) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 16:37:02 -0000 Received: from micronuts.com ([24.200.172.15]) by VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id G86TZR02.TLG for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:35:51 -0500 Message-ID: <3A7C257C.789B509C@micronuts.com> Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 10:36:28 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Just testing... References: <981189491.336.90289.l10@yahoogroups.com> <200102031527.RAA19938@smtp2.kolumbus.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Stankiewicz You're deluded about this (no offense meant), as most people are. Even two intitiates of the same degree will most likely manifest different siddhis. js sanctius@mail.com wrote: > I wonder how advanced initiate must be to pass > following, quite simple yet practical test? > > 1) I pick a random book and a random page and > underline a random phrase. I close the book. > > 2) I pick up the phone and call my friend, who > I think is an initiate of such high standing, > that she shall gladly show me some benefits of > spiritual unfoldment. > > 3) I ask her "I have something to ask, just for > a joke, but can you recall what phrase I just > underlined from a book of mine?" > > I have a feeling that initiates of third degree[1] > or higher can attune to peoples soul and therefore > have access to all information that has ever been > experienced by a human being in earth's sphere. > > [1] With Nth inititation I mean > the definition written by Bailey/DK. > > -- > http://profiles.yahoo.com/sanctius From DNisk98114@aol.com Sat Feb 03 07:44:32 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: DNisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 15:44:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 3447 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 15:44:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 15:44:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r12.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.66) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 15:44:31 -0000 Received: from DNisk98114@aol.com by imo-r12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.68.bb79ec9 (4409) for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:44:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <68.bb79ec9.27ad8152@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:44:18 EST Subject: About going beyond virtue and vice....... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_68.bb79ec9.27ad8152_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10502 From: DNisk98114@aol.com --part1_68.bb79ec9.27ad8152_boundary Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en And here is someone who has expressed our "beloved"? Duality into a=20 significant directive towards the "One". SELF-TRANSCENDENCE =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Man is all the time outside of himself: it is in projecting a= nd=20 losing himself beyond himself that he makes man to exist; and, on the=20 other hand, it is by pursuing transcendent aims that he himself is=20 able to exist. Since man is thus self-surpassing, and can grasp=20 objects only in relation to his self-surpassing, he is himself the=20 heart and centre of his transcendence. There is no other universe=20 except the human universe, the universe of human subjectivity. This=20 relation of transcendence as constitutive of man (not in the sense=20 that God is transcendent, but in the sense of self-surpassing) with=20 subjectivity (in such a sense that man is not shut up in himself but=20 forever present in a human universe) - it is this that we call=20 existential humanism. This is humanism, because we remind man that=20 there is no legislator but himself; that he himself, thus abandoned,=20 must decide for himself; also because we show that it is not by=20 turning back upon himself, but always by seeking, beyond himself, an=20 aim which is one of liberation or of some particular realization,=20 that man can realize himself as truly human.=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 JEAN-PAUL SARTRE =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ( http://theosophy.org/tlodocs/Readings/123.htm ) Dear Friends: Two =E2=80=9CWe=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D seem to work in and through us.=C2=A0 Th= e Higher or BUDDHI-MANAS (the honest, sincere, wise MIND) seeks the ways of brotherhood and cooperation. The Lower KAMA-MANAS (the selfish, isolated, territorial mid) seeks to dominate, convince, and confuse -- it lives isolated and to reinforce its supremacy it tries to label others in terms of its concepts of reality -- which are not universal. At lease this seems to be the case as I see it, Dallas --part1_68.bb79ec9.27ad8152_boundary Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en And here is someone who = has expressed our "beloved"? Duality into a=20
significant directive towards the "One".

SELF-TRANSCENDENCE

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Man is all the time outside of himself: it is in projecti= ng and=20
losing himself beyond himself that he makes man to exist; and, on the=20
other hand, it is by pursuing transcendent aims that he himself is=20
able to exist. Since man is thus self-surpassing, and can grasp=20
objects only in relation to his self-surpassing, he is himself the=20
heart and centre of his transcendence. There is no other universe=20
except the human universe, the universe of human subjectivity. This=20
relation of transcendence as constitutive of man (not in the sense=20
that God is transcendent, but in the sense of self-surpassing) with=20
subjectivity (in such a sense that man is not shut up in himself but=20
forever present in a human universe) - it is this that we call=20
existential humanism. This is humanism, because we remind man that=20
there is no legislator but himself; that he himself, thus abandoned,=20
must decide for himself; also because we show that it is not by=20
turning back upon himself, but always by seeking, beyond himself, an=20
aim which is one of liberation or of some particular realization,=20
that man can realize himself as truly human.=20

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 JEAN-PAUL SARTRE
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ( http://theosophy.org/tlodocs/Readings/123.htm )



Dear Friends:

Two =E2=80=9CWe=E2=80=99s=E2=80=9D seem to work in and through us.=C2= =A0 The Higher or BUDDHI-MANAS (the
honest, sincere, wise MIND) seeks the ways of brotherhood and cooperati= on.
The Lower KAMA-MANAS (the selfish, isolated, territorial mid) seeks to
dominate, convince, and confuse -- it lives isolated and to reinforce i= ts
supremacy it tries to label others in terms of its concepts of reality = --
which are not universal.

At lease this seems to be the case as I see it,

Dallas --part1_68.bb79ec9.27ad8152_boundary-- From DNisk98114@aol.com Sat Feb 03 08:24:00 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: DNisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 16:23:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 15870 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 16:23:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 16:23:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d05.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.37) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 16:23:59 -0000 Received: from DNisk98114@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.16.85ac390 (4409) for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:23:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <16.85ac390.27ad8a9c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:23:56 EST Subject: Musing the opposites...... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_16.85ac390.27ad8a9c_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10502 From: DNisk98114@aol.com --part1_16.85ac390.27ad8a9c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What does a Great master like Jalludin Rumi mean when he asserts "I have put away Duality and I embrace oneness?"(pardon, please, the rough quote) if not for having won further than most in the struggle with the pairs of opposites? I greatly appreciate all replies that have been given and will be given as this opens up our natures to the "possibilties" (vistas of the Soul, as Judge put it.) --part1_16.85ac390.27ad8a9c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What does a Great master like Jalludin Rumi mean when he asserts "I have put
away Duality and I embrace oneness?"(pardon, please, the rough quote) if not
for having won further than most in the struggle with the pairs of opposites?
I greatly appreciate all replies that have been given and will be given as
this opens up our natures to the "possibilties" (vistas of the Soul, as Judge
put it.) --part1_16.85ac390.27ad8a9c_boundary-- From DNisk98114@aol.com Sat Feb 03 09:38:30 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: DNisk98114@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 17:38:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 60804 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 17:38:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 17:38:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 17:38:28 -0000 Received: from DNisk98114@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.3d.6f745d3 (658) for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:38:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3d.6f745d3.27ad9c0a@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:38:18 EST Subject: Sometimes things hide...... To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_3d.6f745d3.27ad9c0a_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: 6.0 sub 10502 From: DNisk98114@aol.com --part1_3d.6f745d3.27ad9c0a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just as a note of interest. This month's celestial going's on. Sometimes things hide to even the careful observer.{note that which is behind the Sun.) --part1_3d.6f745d3.27ad9c0a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just as a note of interest.

This month's celestial going's on.

Sometimes things hide to even the careful observer.{note that which is behind
the Sun.) --part1_3d.6f745d3.27ad9c0a_boundary-- From compiler@wisdomworld.org Sat Feb 03 09:41:24 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: compiler@wisdomworld.org X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 17:41:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 55628 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 17:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 17:41:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.rdc1.md.home.com) (24.2.2.66) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 17:41:23 -0000 Received: from wisdomworld.org ([24.3.34.114]) by mail.rdc1.md.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010203174122.GGDP10139.mail.rdc1.md.home.com@wisdomworld.org>; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 09:41:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3A7C42C2.D22FE400@wisdomworld.org> Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 12:41:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, basic@blavatsky.net Subject: Re: Theos-World Musing the opposites...... References: <16.85ac390.27ad8a9c@aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A58696D675797BCECB495C14" From: Compiler --------------A58696D675797BCECB495C14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DNisk: This 6-part series, entitled ANTIPODAL POWERS OF MANAS, should be very useful to you and everyone else concerning the overall subject of duality, "the opposites", etc.: http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/AntipodalPowersOfManas-Series/index.html John DeSantis (Compiler) You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here: http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html ------- DNisk98114@aol.com wrote: > What does a Great master like Jalludin Rumi mean when he asserts "I > have put > away Duality and I embrace oneness?"(pardon, please, the rough quote) > if not > for having won further than most in the struggle with the pairs of > opposites? > I greatly appreciate all replies that have been given and will be > given as > this opens up our natures to the "possibilties" (vistas of the Soul, > as Judge > put it.) --------------A58696D675797BCECB495C14 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DNisk:

This 6-part series, entitled ANTIPODAL POWERS OF MANAS,
should be very useful to you and everyone else concerning
the overall subject of duality, "the opposites", etc.:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/additional/AntipodalPowersOfManas-Series/index.html

John DeSantis
(Compiler)

You may find a great deal of the Truth that you are searching for here:
http://www.wisdomworld.org/index.html

-------

DNisk98114@aol.com wrote:

What does a Great master like Jalludin Rumi mean when he asserts "I have put
away Duality and I embrace oneness?"(pardon, please, the rough quote) if not
for having won further than most in the struggle with the pairs of opposites?
I greatly appreciate all replies that have been given and will be given as
this opens up our natures to the "possibilties" (vistas of the Soul, as Judge
put it.)
--------------A58696D675797BCECB495C14-- From sanctius@mail.com Sat Feb 03 10:09:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: sanctius@mail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 18:09:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 1639 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 18:09:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 18:09:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4.kolumbus.fi) (193.229.0.39) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 18:09:13 -0000 Received: from SANCTIUS (mg58m1tli.dial.kolumbus.fi [212.54.14.58]) by smtp4.kolumbus.fi (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA08451 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 20:09:05 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <200102031809.UAA08451@smtp4.kolumbus.fi> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Siddhic Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:10:30 GMT Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sanctius_J=E4rvenp=E4=E4_Finland?= Reply-To: sanctius@mail.com References: <981189491.336.90289.l10@yahoogroups.com> In-Reply-To: <981189491.336.90289.l10@yahoogroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-From: sanctius@mail.com (Sanctius) From: sanctius@mail.com John Stankiewicz: >You're deluded about this (no offense meant), as most people are. I might be deluded, yes. By myself or by others. As long there are "myself" and "others", I might be deluded. O:-) >Even two intitiates of the same degree will >most likely manifest different siddhis. But what in reality ARE those so-called siddhis? Isn't my physical hearing and sight siddhis too? Isn't it a siddhi anymore when everybody has it? There is a point in human evolution where physical hearing and sight become 99% common. There is also a point in human evolution where spiritual knowing becomes 99% common. Of course there are nowadays some people who can't see or hear, and there are likeways some high degree initiates who can't know either. I'd like to know what that point of evolution is, where 99% people become all-knowing of all on earth. Is that 3rd, 5th or 7th initiation? There must be some "common siddhi" for every degree of intiate. I wonder what those might be? For example for the 3rd degree initiate, who has experienced "the light from above"? -- http://profiles.yahoo.com/sanctius From john@micronuts.com Sat Feb 03 10:22:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: john@micronuts.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 18:22:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 60657 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 18:22:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 18:22:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca) (24.201.245.36) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 18:22:13 -0000 Received: from micronuts.com ([24.200.172.15]) by VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id G871OY00.ST9 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:22:10 -0500 Message-ID: <3A7C4C77.EAA6764E@micronuts.com> Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 13:22:47 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Siddhic References: <981189491.336.90289.l10@yahoogroups.com> <200102031809.UAA08451@smtp4.kolumbus.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Stankiewicz sanctius@mail.com wrote: > John Stankiewicz: > >You're deluded about this (no offense meant), as most people are. > > I might be deluded, yes. By myself or by others. As long > there are "myself" and "others", I might be deluded. O:-) > nice. sure. > > >Even two intitiates of the same degree will > >most likely manifest different siddhis. > > But what in reality ARE those so-called siddhis? Isn't my physical > hearing and sight siddhis too? Isn't it a siddhi anymore when > everybody has it? There is a point in human evolution where physical > hearing and sight become 99% common. There is also a point in human > evolution where spiritual knowing becomes 99% common. Of course there > are nowadays some people who can't see or hear, and there are likeways > No, your sight, hearing, taste, and so on are not siddhis as considered in the traditions. Siddhis are powers that manifest when a person has progressed to a certain/whatever level of degree. And experience/history has shown that no two yogins (or even Gurus) who have progressed to a certain degree, necessarily exhibit the same siddhi. To assume that humans will progress to some point where all of them will possess a certain siddhi is...not how it is structured or works. It is not just evolution. This is a dream, remember? > > some high degree initiates who can't know either. I'd like to know > what that point of evolution is, where 99% people become all-knowing > of all on earth. Is that 3rd, 5th or 7th initiation? There must be > There is no such thing. Even at the highest levels the initiated person/Guru/Master/Mahatma may not know All. Because All is just patterns and patterning. We Westerners are under the illusion that All can be known and examined in all certainty. And that there is some position we can attain to that makes us Omnipotent or Omniscient (but Omniscient does not mean that we KNOW what is exactly happening everywhere and when.) > some "common siddhi" for every degree of intiate. I wonder what > those might be? For example for the 3rd degree initiate, who has > experienced "the light from above"? > Now there are some common siddhis, such as etheric vision and astral vision, sure. But the rest are not necessarily common, such as bilocation. Not every initiate will experience/have that particular siddhi. It WILL manifest if there is a need for it. Otherwise, if there is no predisposition for it or need for it...it won't. So there is no yardstick you can really apply, and I feel that's what you're trying to do. js > > -- > http://profiles.yahoo.com/sanctius From john@micronuts.com Sat Feb 03 10:27:04 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: john@micronuts.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 18:27:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 60240 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 18:27:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 18:27:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca) (24.201.245.36) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 19:28:07 -0000 Received: from micronuts.com ([24.200.172.15]) by VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id G871X201.PSX for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 13:27:02 -0500 Message-ID: <3A7C4D9A.5052EBBC@micronuts.com> Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 13:27:39 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Musing the opposites...... References: <16.85ac390.27ad8a9c@aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------34DC25E19D36F65EBD15577A" From: John Stankiewicz --------------34DC25E19D36F65EBD15577A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This sounds like a seventh stage samadhi confession. Which means that he has realized his identity with the One, or All and all, as there is no One, really, if there was then that would imply there is no Two or more, or One against the Many. The final samadhi is a realization that you are All of It. All seeming separate selves, but yet there is no one separate, and you are all that. js DNisk98114@aol.com wrote: > What does a Great master like Jalludin Rumi mean when he asserts "I > have put > away Duality and I embrace oneness?"(pardon, please, the rough quote) > if not > for having won further than most in the struggle with the pairs of > opposites? > I greatly appreciate all replies that have been given and will be > given as > this opens up our natures to the "possibilties" (vistas of the Soul, > as Judge > put it.) -- John Stankiewicz, http://www.true-freedom-as-self-government.com --------------34DC25E19D36F65EBD15577A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This sounds like a seventh stage samadhi confession.  Which means that he has realized his identity with the One, or All and all, as there is no One, really, if there was then that would imply there is no Two or more, or One against the Many.  The final samadhi is a realization that you are All of It.  All seeming separate selves, but yet there is no one separate, and you are all that.

js

DNisk98114@aol.com wrote:

What does a Great master like Jalludin Rumi mean when he asserts "I have put
away Duality and I embrace oneness?"(pardon, please, the rough quote) if not
for having won further than most in the struggle with the pairs of opposites?
I greatly appreciate all replies that have been given and will be given as
this opens up our natures to the "possibilties" (vistas of the Soul, as Judge
put it.)

--
John Stankiewicz, http://www.true-freedom-as-self-government.com
  --------------34DC25E19D36F65EBD15577A-- From sanctius@mail.com Sat Feb 03 10:56:16 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: sanctius@mail.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 3 Feb 2001 18:56:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 56693 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2001 18:56:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Feb 2001 18:56:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4.kolumbus.fi) (193.229.0.39) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Feb 2001 18:56:14 -0000 Received: from SANCTIUS (mg58m1tli.dial.kolumbus.fi [212.54.14.58]) by smtp4.kolumbus.fi (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA15704 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 2001 20:56:08 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <200102031856.UAA15704@smtp4.kolumbus.fi> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com Subject: Siddhic Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:57:35 GMT Organization: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sanctius_J=E4rvenp=E4=E4_Finland?= Reply-To: sanctius@mail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-From: sanctius@mail.com (Sanctius) From: sanctius@mail.com John Stankiewicz: >Siddhis are powers that manifest when a person >has progressed to a certain/whatever level of degree. Perhaps persons too are powers that manifest when a Monad has progressed to a certain/whatever level of degree? >We Westerners are under the illusion that All >can be known and examined in all certainty. Perhaps all humanity is under the illusion that All cannot be known? >Not every initiate will experience/have that particular >siddhi. It WILL manifest if there is a need for it. If I consider myself a siddhi for a moment: Because I AM manifested, there is a need for this particular kind of siddhi like me. I don't believe that I can make any siddhis, becau