From eldon@theosophy.com Mon Jan 01 14:37:26 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 1 Jan 2001 22:37:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 15060 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2001 22:37:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Jan 2001 22:37:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Jan 2001 22:37:25 -0000 Received: from SCRIBE.theosophy.com (dsl-64-194-209-113.telocity.com [64.194.209.113]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08401 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:48:10 -0600 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010101141357.00a20150@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: eldon/theosophy.com@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 14:36:49 -0800 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Eldon B Tucker Following are the dates of the solstices, equinoxes, perihelion, and aphelion for the next few years. Upcoming is the Sun's perihelion on Jan 4th at 09:00 AM Universal Time. (In California, Pacific Standard Time would make it at 5:00 PM. These dates are from the "Earth's Seasons" web page of the U.S. Naval Observatory: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/data/docs/EarthSeasons.html ---- 2001 2001 Perihelion Jan 4 09 Equinoxes Mar 20 13 31 Sept 22 23 05 Aphelion July 4 14 Solstices June 21 07 38 Dec 21 19 22 2002 2002 Perihelion Jan 2 14 Equinoxes Mar 20 19 16 Sept 23 04 56 Aphelion July 6 04 Solstices June 21 13 24 Dec 22 01 15 2003 2003 Perihelion Jan 4 05 Equinoxes Mar 21 01 00 Sept 23 10 47 Aphelion July 4 06 Solstices June 21 19 10 Dec 22 07 04 2004 2004 Perihelion Jan 4 18 Equinoxes Mar 20 06 49 Sept 22 16 30 Aphelion July 5 11 Solstices June 21 00 57 Dec 21 12 42 2005 2005 Perihelion Jan 2 01 Equinoxes Mar 20 12 34 Sept 22 22 23 Aphelion July 5 05 Solstices June 21 06 46 Dec 21 18 35 ---- At the Perihelion, the Earth is at its closest point in the year to the Sun. (The farthest point away from the Sun is the Aphelion.) Since outer physical events are symbolic of things on the inner planes, especially outer events of astronomical nature, we might assume that the equinoxes and solstices, and the perihelion/aphelion cycles have special significance. The solstices and equinoxes come from the obliquity of the ecliptic. They come from the fact that the earth, in spinning on its axis, is not exactly at right angles to the plane of its orbit around the sun. The plane representing the earth's revolution about its axis is the celestial equator, a projection outwards of the earth's equator. The plane representing the earth's orbit of the sun is the ecliptic. They match in springtime at the Vernal Equinox. They are farthest apart (with the Sun most northward of the earth's equator) at the Summer Solstice. They are again matched in the autumn, at the Autumnal Equinox. And they are again farthest apart (with the Sun most southward of the earth's equator) at the Winter Solstice. The solstices and equinoxes, then, represent the points of change in the difference between the earth's independent view of the universe (it's revolution) and the earth's dependent relationship with its parent sun (it's orbit of the sun). The perihelion and aphelion cycle are on a different cycle, and it is only at the present that the perihelion happens to be about two weeks after the Winter Solstice. Thousands of years later, it will happen at a different time of the year. We can't, therefore, assume that anything of a mystical nature involved in the perihelion is specifically tied to the Winter Solstice. Right now, it's about two weeks or half a lunar month later, but it wasn't always so, and won't remain so into the distant future. If we want to understand the special significance of the perihelion/aphelion cycle, we have to consider what it might symbolize, using the astronomical key, our intuition, and any stray references in the theosophical and other mystery tradition literature. I suspect, since the perihelion is the closest point to the sun, and the aphelion the farthest, that with the former there is communion with beings of earth and inner life forces of the sun, and with the latter there is communion with beings outside our solar scheme, with the aphelion being the time of easiest escape of the solar influence. This are only, of course, some initial, stray thoughts on the matter. What do others think? -- Eldon From Drpsionic@aol.com Mon Jan 01 14:54:03 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Drpsionic@aol.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 1 Jan 2001 22:54:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 16608 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2001 22:54:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2001 22:54:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d04.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.36) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Jan 2001 22:54:02 -0000 Received: from Drpsionic@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.35.) id a.a5.f9d85b9 (3956) for ; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 17:53:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 17:53:59 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World To: theos-talk@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 104 From: Drpsionic@aol.com In a message dated 1/1/01 4:39:25 PM Central Standard Time, eldon@theosophy.com writes: << What do others think? >> I think it's really cool that it lands on Bashi-Bazouk Day. Chuck the Heretic From nick.weeks@att.net Mon Jan 01 15:33:09 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nick.Weeks@worldnet.att.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 1 Jan 2001 23:33:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 41109 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2001 23:33:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2001 23:33:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net) (204.127.131.51) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Jan 2001 23:33:08 -0000 Received: from pavilion ([12.72.43.171]) by mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.10 201-229-121-110) with SMTP id <20010101233307.LNGB6585.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@pavilion> for ; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:33:07 +0000 Message-ID: <000601c0744b$b1786300$ab2b480c@pavilion> To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010101141357.00a20150@pop3.norton.antivirus> Subject: Re: Theos-World Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 15:36:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-eGroups-From: "Nick Weeks" From: "Nick Weeks" From: "Eldon B Tucker" > Following are the dates of the solstices, equinoxes, perihelion, and > aphelion for the next few years. Upcoming is the Sun's perihelion > on Jan 4th at 09:00 AM Universal Time. (In California, Pacific Standard > Time would make it at 5:00 PM. Universal time is the old GMT which is located in Greenwich, England. There is an 8 hour difference between UT & PST, so I think 1 am PST is the correct time for perhelion this year. Best, Nicholas From nick.weeks@att.net Mon Jan 01 15:53:03 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Nick.Weeks@worldnet.att.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 1 Jan 2001 23:53:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 32932 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2001 23:53:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2001 23:53:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net) (204.127.131.51) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Jan 2001 23:53:01 -0000 Received: from pavilion ([12.72.43.171]) by mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.10 201-229-121-110) with SMTP id <20010101235259.LQJA6585.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@pavilion> for ; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:52:59 +0000 Message-ID: <000f01c0744e$78478cc0$ab2b480c@pavilion> To: References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010101141357.00a20150@pop3.norton.antivirus> Subject: Re: Aphelion Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2001 15:56:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-eGroups-From: "Nick Weeks" From: "Nick Weeks" From: "Eldon B Tucker" > If we want to understand the special significance of the > perihelion/aphelion cycle, we have to consider what it might > symbolize, using the astronomical key, our intuition, and any > stray references in the theosophical and other mystery tradition > literature. I suspect, since the perihelion is the closest > point to the sun, and the aphelion the farthest, that with > the former there is communion with beings of earth and inner > life forces of the sun, and with the latter there is communion > with beings outside our solar scheme, with the aphelion being > the time of easiest escape of the solar influence. This are > only, of course, some initial, stray thoughts on the matter. > What do others think? For advanced Adepts there may be communion with "inner life forces of the sun", but for aspirants like ourselves we might, at best, commune with our individual solar forces and/or the solar force within this Earth Chain & Globe -- that is, the Atmic/Auric Egg parts of our highest nature. As for aphelion (around July 4th) the forces of this Earth Chain & Globe will be, relative to the solar forces, most powerful. Depending on how spiritually polarized we are, this would be a time to commune with our non-solar (ie "lunar") mental & buddhic higher nature. If we are not careful though, what we contact may be lower, personal energies. Some theosophical groups have a practice of taking a summer break around July. Perhaps (consciously or unconsciously, I do not know) they are avoiding having any "esoteric" or "meditative" gatherings in thought because of possible dangers around aphelion. Best, Nicholas From eldon@theosophy.com Mon Jan 01 15:56:51 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: eldon@theosophy.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 1 Jan 2001 23:56:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 5626 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2001 23:56:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Jan 2001 23:56:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Jan 2001 00:57:55 -0000 Received: from SCRIBE.theosophy.com (dsl-64-194-209-113.telocity.com [64.194.209.113]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21446 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 18:07:35 -0600 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010101155520.00a51630@pop3.norton.antivirus> X-Sender: eldon/theosophy.com@pop3.norton.antivirus X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 15:56:16 -0800 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World In-Reply-To: <000601c0744b$b1786300$ab2b480c@pavilion> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010101141357.00a20150@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: Eldon B Tucker You're right. I was adding when I should have subtracted. 09:00 AM - 8 hours = 01:00 AM -- Eldon At 03:36 PM 1/1/01 -0800, you wrote: >From: "Eldon B Tucker" > > Following are the dates of the solstices, equinoxes, perihelion, and > > aphelion for the next few years. Upcoming is the Sun's perihelion > > on Jan 4th at 09:00 AM Universal Time. (In California, Pacific Standard > > Time would make it at 5:00 PM. > > >Universal time is the old GMT which is located in Greenwich, England. There >is an 8 hour difference between UT & PST, so I think 1 am PST is the correct >time for perhelion this year. > >Best, > >Nicholas From ramadoss@mail.eden.com Mon Jan 01 21:47:17 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 2 Jan 2001 05:47:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 15579 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2001 05:47:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2001 05:47:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO VOLTAIRE.stic.net) (216.198.0.5) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Jan 2001 05:47:16 -0000 Received: from senzar ([216.198.61.55]) by VOLTAIRE.stic.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-70040U18500L11000S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Mon, 1 Jan 2001 23:47:15 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20010101234620.00778f2c@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 23:46:20 -0600 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Aphelion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: ramadoss@mail.eden.com At 03:56 PM 1/1/01 -0800, Nick Weeks wrote: >Some theosophical groups have a practice of taking a summer break around >July. Perhaps (consciously or unconsciously, I do not know) they are >avoiding having any "esoteric" or "meditative" gatherings in thought because >of possible dangers around aphelion. In all the years I spent in India, I have not seen the summer break around July. On the other hand, many groups in the USA suspend all activities during summer break much like the schools having summer off. mkr From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Jan 02 03:43:51 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 2 Jan 2001 11:43:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 88264 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2001 11:43:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2001 11:43:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Jan 2001 11:43:50 -0000 Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA30003; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 05:54:35 -0600 Received: from earthlink (pool0090.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.90]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA11034; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 03:42:54 -0800 (PST) To: "AA-Dal" Subject: JAN. 1st 2001 -- HAPPY NEW YEAR 2001 to you and family Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 03:38:10 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 From: dalval14@earthlink.net January 1st 2001 DEAR FRIEND: This brings you our BEST WISHES for the coming year 2001 Valerie and Dallas TenBroeck From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Jan 02 06:29:16 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 2 Jan 2001 14:29:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 78817 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2001 14:29:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Jan 2001 14:29:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Jan 2001 14:29:14 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0046.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.46]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA08363; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:29:01 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:23:51 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: <002b01c07357$058f99e0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> From: dalval14@earthlink.net Jan 1 2001 Dear Gene: Some notes below: Hasty but perhaps some value in them. Thanks for the sharing, D. ================================ -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 10:25 AM To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Dear Dallas, I appreciate all your comments. It is very good for me to remember the differences so as not to get confused concerning the word astral and it's different uses. I know the HPB's materials are the basis and the foundation for all further work in theosophy. There are clear differences, however, between the seven states of consciousness and the seven principles as: three of the planes of any set of seven planes are abstract and out of manifestation. All of the principles are within manifestation. The subtleties are kept in mind. =========== DTB As I understand it, the evolutionary scheme requires these 7 (or 10) steps to link the separate poles established in manifestation And called respectively SPIRIT and MATTER. Separately I have sent comments to you on a similar subject and tried to show how the concept of the MONAD (SPIRIT/MATTER) pervades all manifestation and in all place, all times, and in any of the planes of matter or of consciousness. As I see it, the reason for those consecutive links is to enable the CONSCIOUSNESS of each MONAD -- which is unitary -- TO PROGRESS UP AND DOWN THE SCALE OF RECORDING, WHICH EACH LEVEL PF "principles" REPRESENTS. Consciousness is one for each Monad and not many. Mahat or the Universal Mind, represents not only the SOURCE in Primary Creation of the mind-principle (S.D. I 75) and the rules of evolution -- as well as KARMA . So I am little confused when you speak of several states of consciousness unless you are looking at it from our matter limited point of view sich as: waking, lucid dreaming, kamic-disturbed emotional dreams, true spiritual dreams, trance, meditation (of several kinds), hypnosis, total periods of time when our usual consciousness appears to be blanked out and our brain on awaking seems to have no awareness of, and the kind of sleep induced by drugs anesthetics, etc... The important thing is that we are always OURSELVES and not someone else when we resume waking consciousness. H.P.B. does mention the evil elementaries, sorcerers and black-magicians who use their powers to "take over" the body (form) of some individuals and then use them for their own evil or destructive purposes. Literature offers a number of such cases. Dal. ================================ The gross non-etheric plane is not a principle. DTB WHAT IS IT THEN? ------------------------------------------- Atma is not a principle, strictly DTB It is UNIVERSAL. Why are we "aware" of it. ------------------------------------------- speaking. And. The entire emotional plane is not a principle, I have recently seen suggested. ======================================== DTB I do not understand that, as "feeling" [ including KAMA, passions and desires] is uncertainty but also it attracts. It is a "plane" separate from MIND and from PRANA (vitality). Mind is a tool which is able to pierce up and down through all possibilities (and planes of sensation) without loosing its cohesive quality and its egoic nature. ========================================= The Buddhic-Intuitive state of consciousness is latent thought as this is the manifesting plane for the Monadic State of Consciousness, the second plane from the top, it seems. ==================================== DTB Buddhi is said by H.P.B. to include the record of all experience and event and the impression any Mind makes on matter as it lives and makes independent choices -- the amount of data is staggering in our concept. But is necessary for KARMA to work unerringly and sincerely honestly for every speck of sentient conscious material -- no matter how "unimportant." Buddhi-manas is our Mind which is able to unite with the plane of Buddhi and draw from it a perception of causes and their potential effects. It is impersonal and universal, also timeless. ==================================== This Monadic Plane, the plane of the Causeless Cause, is beyond all possible thought(but not beyond the Heart of hearts). So it is appropriate that Beauty, Harmony, Grace, Intuition, Buddhi(Beauty?) be beyond actual thought. The poet speaks of THAT beyond all possible thought. A remarkable art, no? The successful poet speaks of the Absoluteness. ====================================== DTB How can any principle be isolated from or "beyond" any other? The total person is essentially a mind which is balanced between TOTAL KNOWLEDGE (or WISDOM) and total IGNORANCE (which is inexperience). Hence the Mind-being (you and me, etc...) have to pass (over an immense time and many incarnations) through all those experiences that educate it in the limitations of various planes of matter (and its lower "principles"). Each Mind-human has to acquire the ability to reflect in itself without inaccuracy, and by self-effort an actual knowledge of the WHOLE and the INFINITE. It (the Soul-Mind) is called THE ETERNAL PILGRIM, because time is not a factor. In our present lives TIME is a grinding factor. We feel limited and grasp for certainties which are in themselves limits WE ERECT through inexperience or false reasoning from unsound bases. Dal ============================= All THAT there is, is the UNKNOWABLE Therefore, All that can be known is the unknowable. (I have just adroitly proved that I'm no poet) If I were to see at the logoic level, the first plane, this would be Atma. ============================= DTB Why? Buddhi is only 1/2 of the eternal MONAD It is PRIMORDIAL MATTER. It needs the contrast of its opposed SPIRIT to manifest. ================================== If I were to see at the monadic level, this would appear as Buddhic. ================================================ DTB BUDDHI is only 1/2 of the Monad and cannot exist separately. >From one point of view ATMA is the ONLY PRINCIPLE and the 6 other "principles" are modifications of IT -- THE ONE AND WHOLE. All beings need contrast for their existence. SPIRIT is the contrasting (opposite) pole to Buddhi which is PRIMORDIAL MATTER (Mulaprakriti) Dal ========================================== If I were to see at the Atmic level, the third plane, this would be Manasic. DTB OK And seeing on all these supreme levels (the upper three) would be Atma-Buddhi-Manas. DTB To me this represents the INDIVIDUALITY or the components of the IMMORTAL MAN -- the ETERNAL PILGRIM. =================================== The Buddhi-Manas part would be Hermes-Venus or Hermes-Aphrodite or Hermaphrodite(Collected Works, Vol. 12, early part of the Second Instruction, around page 532 or so) Hence the struggle to see at the highest planes in order to one day manifest through the middle and transpersonal planes. ============================================== DTB No conflict that I can see. The WE is actually the individualized higher Mind or Buddhi-Manas on which the supernal light of the "ray" of ATMA shines always. As to vision from the plane of BUDDHI-MANAS or even ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS (since the 3 are inseparable) is invoked whenever the MANAS-MIND dwells on universal and universal virtues, their origin, existence and application.. Somehow your definitions seem to me to difficult to understand and apply. I would strongly recommend a review of several tables in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY by H.P.B. pp 91-2, 135-6, 175-6. And these could also be cross checked with the definitions H.P.B. gives in the S.D. vol. 1, pp. 243-246. I say this because to me those are the basis from which Theosophy starts, Later commentators (as I have found) have erected their terminology on these in order to define some of their own speculations, which makes it difficult to adjust their terms to the basics. I may be wrong, but I sense that you are using something like that. Actually we ought to be able to deal with these things without such definitions. But then for communication we need to use accurate symbology in words. This is very interesting, Best wishes, Dal =================================== Brother Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 5:18 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > December 30, 2000 > > Almost the end of this year and a new millennium starts Monday. > BEST WISHES TO YOU and yours. > > > Dear Gene: > > I am going by the description of the qualities inherent in the 7 > Principles (which correspond to the 7 Universal Planes) - and I > use H.P.B.'s books KEY TO THEOSOPHY and THE SECRET DOCTRINE as a > basis . > > I consider the commentaries made by students who followed her > (and of course myself) as expressions of their understanding of > what she basically said -- and remember the Masters certified > they were her co-authors ( PATH Vol. 8,. P. 1-4). > > So you will find me in trying to meet or make descriptions using > those originals of H.P.B. > > Of course there are mixtures as some aspects of metaphysics > involve more than one set of Principles or Planes of being, > perception and of action . > > So much time is spent on adjusting terminology, so meaning is > rendered clear. Sorry. > > Let me add some comments to yours given below. > > Dal > > ================================ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 8:26 AM > To: theos-talk@egroups.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > > Dear Dallas, > > Yes. Your comments are very helpful. What I gave out was to be > food for > thought, sort of like a buddha made out of gingerbread, to be > consumed, > digested, some absorbed, some not. It is very interesting to be > able to > follow your reasoning. > > I can see that whereas I am sticking to the seven planes, you are > expanding > and pointing out that each of the planes as seven subplanes. > Also you are > associating from planes into the seven principles which are > numbered > differently than the planes but jive nonetheless, and I follow > you as I'm > familiar with the different ways of numbering the principles and > how Subba > Row in his comments on the Bhragava(sp?) Gita demonstrates his > numbering > system. This is all good. I keep my focus better by sticking to > the planes > and pondering their logical derivation: > Will causes love and intelligent > activity and these three have four permutations giving seven and > each of the > seven have seven, etc, and I'm constantly retreating back to the > Will or the > Three Aspects(The Will and it's two effects, Love and Intellect). > I might > point out that the lists of Seven are all using different words > to describe > the same seven planes. One list I didn't use might be > clarifying: > > -------------------------------------------------------- > DTB Will (as I understand it) is a faculty used by the MONAD to > achieve any result on any plane of matter. For instance you > desire to lift your pencil. The thought is activated by the > desire impulse, the mind decides that it is a legitimate action, > the will is engaged to transmit the thought into action by > activating the brain centers which transmit neural directions to > the appropriate muscles, etc.. All done in a "flash." I think you > will find the sequence correct. "Deciding that an action is > legitimate" is where the moral equation comes in. On can spend a > great deal of time establishing that. Is the pencil to be used > casually, or with the intent to assist or harm -- and so on. > What kind of feelings, and / or thoughts lie behind the use of > that pencil, -- and so on. > -------------------------------------- > Yours My comments > --------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ----------- > 1. DTB ZERO REALLY as we have no concept of ITS REALITY. > > 2. Absoluteness DTB NO THING > > 3. Absolute DTB NOTHING (see S.D. I p. 27 ) > > 4. Buddhic(latent thought) DTB WHY LATENT? It can be > activated and relied on at need. > MEMORY certainly, but serves MIND (the active agent), as a basis > for comparing earlier recorded results and determining the > probable outcome of any act, word or feeling. (This -- I think > may be called -- a service from the universal Akasa to the > individualized Buddhi, and displayed to the Mind more and more > clearly as it (the Mind) attempts to secure a clear view of > TRUTH -- so that it can choose the best course available.) > If we are seeking for the most appropriate MORAL aspect of > thought this would indeed bring on the conjunction of BUDDHI and > MANAS. This is also called the HIGHER-MIND or Buddhi-Manas. It > is a act of the tripartite SPIRITUAL SELF ( ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) > in trying to give the best "advice" to the inquiring LOWER > MIND -- all of us, who seek to do "the best that we can." > > 5. Manasic(actual thought) DTB PERHAPS YOU MEAN THE THOUGHTS WE > GENERATE WHEN WE RESPOND OR GENERATE IDEAS BASED ON OUR PRESENT > INVOLVEMENT WITH MATERIAL THINGS ? Most of these have a personal > or selfish basis. But under the pressure of experience at some > time the Lower Manas wakes up to the fact that its choices have > often led it astray into painful experiences -- so it resolves to > look for a better advisor -- a better way to choose actions, > words, feelings. > > 6. Astral(emotions) DTB NOT part of my concept, as the word > "astral" as first used in H.P.B.'s and Masters' expositions > related solely to the electro-magnetic world which is interior to > the physical and serves as a basis for its being -- as a location > pattern for atoms, molecules, cells, etc...hence, > electro-magnetic in nature -- some all it the real body, as the > physical rests in and on it. A knowledge of this adds > substantially to one's ability to heal disease, etc... And to > this was its other capacity of recording all the events that > concerned Lower Manas > DTB EMOTIONS (desires, passions, yearnings, etc. ) H.P.B. > relegates to the plane of KAMA -- DESIRE in Sanskrit. And this is > distinct from the plane of PRANA / JIVA or vitality the general > Life-current in man and Nature. > DTB Plane of PRANA or vital breath in Man -- the life-currents > JIVA, this is perhaps one of the most difficult to define, as > it relates to the tensile strength of the body and has to do with > the Karma of our incarnation in any one place, time and for > whatever purpose our life is set for) and > DTB Plane of the Astral (pattern body of electro-magnetic > substance) and which also a storage place to act as a recording > center for all kinds of moral/ethical events and problems. It is > said to be the lowest aspect of the Akasa. > 7. Physical(the etheric aspect of the physical plane) DTB THIS > APPEARS TO HAVE THE QUALITIES OF WHAT I TERM THE ASTRAL PLANE. > Just above here. > DTB Physical Body and Physical matter of all kinds -- (in terms > of an earlier example its like the whirling fan blades that > resent an obstruction to other kinds of matter. When those > "blades" are stilled one can safely pass matter between them. > When in motion they obstruct or injure.) > ================================== > > I'm finding that things go better for me if I focus on the upper > three > planes using my abstract mind as best I can. > DTB I would not try to pin-point in such a way, as all thought > when put into comprehensible words and expressions are filtered > through the "Lower Mind" or Kama-manas -- which is the link > between the "personality (the lower 4)" and the INDIVIDUALITY, > the Spiritual triad "above." This filter can sometimes distort > the understanding, or blur what one intends to convey. > > I'm trying to understand these DTB SO AM I > > as best I can before again cycling downward through the four > "lower" > permutations of the these states of consciousness. > I am the concrete and practical minded one bridging to the > abstract mind and trying to receive > through that abstract mind the latent thought, beyond actual > thought, of the > buddhic intuition which is, in a very real sense, the beauty of > the Atmic > state of consciousness, containing the unity of our future, for > us, > perfected humanity. > ------------------------------------------ > DTB IF YOU want to phrase it in that way, then do so. But I > don't think there is much profit in making such an identification > FROM THIS MATERIAL LEVEL OF CONCEPTUALIZATION. But as I say if > it helps than use the ideas and concepts. > But let me add a word of caution don't let them (present words > and ideas) trap you in altogether too defining boxes or limits. > (Our existence in "matter" has a tendency to make us rigid -- we > depend on past thinking and don't realise that we have graduated, > and need new concepts, l mean a phrase, words, ideas, etc... to > better define what we have added to our past conclusions and > definitions -- or, what we have learned and proved to ourselves > to be valid THEN. > If you notice, NATURE is made up of many combinations and does > not stop to reason out the whys and the wherefores. It does it > because it is RIGHT TO BE DONE. For us, we have (because we are > emerging from the gross limits of matter) to define as we go, > cautiously and with whatever degree of certainty we can muster. > But keep the definitions as a relatively unimportant aspect of > our work -- as I think you will find, as I did that this ability > to stay focused on a concept (but not on words) helps. So > difficult to convey exactly what I mean. > Another example: The word ABSOLUTE or ABSOLUTENESS means nothing > to us until that moment when MANIFESTATION and EVOLUTION > rebegins. Then they achieve meaning as being that which > anteceded this fresh BEGINNING -- and remains as an unchanged > background. If you take a stone or a brick out of a wall the > SPACE is left there undisturbed. > ========================================= > All of your comments are right-on and very well > reasoned. I shall not comment on them as you will further dance > with them > as you choose. I will happily return to the focus of trying to > understand > the perfected human intellect as it is bathed in the love beyond > all > possible thought, this love the operation of the Will of God, our > solar > logos. > ----------------------------------------------- > DTB WILL OF GOD is a very strange expression as it places GOD as > a very large BEING somewhere -- as a kind of whimsical overseer > who at its pleasure might wave a hand or waft a thought and > render all activity fruitless and abortive. That to me is a > fallacy. ORDERLINESS does not depend on DISORDER or WHIMS, or > FANCY, or any kind of being however small or large. Every bit of > evidence I have secured points to LAW and ORDER and PROGRESS, and > the ACHIEVEMENT OF A GOAL. > One may indeed place LOVE at the head of all things, It may be a > transcendent DESIRE for the GOOD of ALL. I think that takes care > of the level of motive as it is universalized and made impersonal > "for the good of all." > But the WILL action that we AUTHORIZE and select, is the ability > to put this desire into living action. We may follow it, and see > it moving all the various links from plane to plane and principle > to principle, so as to finally engender a physical plane result, > action, etc... . > To me, it would imply a merging of the small self that we are > into the UNIVERSAL SELF of ALL. HARMONY is the KEY to true > LIVING. I think. One might even all it a kind of meditation as > such a repeated action brings on the attunement of all the > "Skandhas" (which are themselves Monads -- but of lesser > experience than ours). > I wonder if you read the article THE ELIXIR OF LIFE -- it is the > first in FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY. It speaks there of the > transformation of our "little lives" (the skandhas) into a > permanent relation with us based on the honest and sincere > voluntary election to live and act "for the good of all > creatures." > ================================== > To let this divine love operate on my little evolving intellect > and > one day bring me face to face with this will is rather like life > itself. To > more fully participate in our mind and our consciousness and our > father's > will is a trip! > ---------------------------------------------- > DTB I would say that the expressions used such as "face to face > with this will," and "our father's will" imply we know those are > NOT SEPARATE from us (except in the imagination of our lower > mind). As we grow in perception of the INNER MAN the potential > of rendering the virtues the real base for life and action > becomes more apparent. > One ought not to consider the Mind, the Will, the Buddhi, and > Atma as distant and remote. (I can see that our education has > tended to produce such an impress on us hat we think in those > terms. I can see how in school I was so impressed, but later I > saw this was not so). > I take the position that I am immortal because I am a "ray" of > the universal ATMAN. This is associated with UNIVERSAL MATTER > and the ensuing combination is also immortal and is called the > MONAD in evolution. > Of necessity the Mind (Manas) is associated with the MONAD and > all three form the IMMORTAL human EGO which is immortal and > eternal and passes from body to body life after life, always > growing and deepening its understanding of the ways and laws and > rules of NATURE -- the UNIVERSE in which it lives and in which it > participates (under the law of universal KARMA) with the work of > all other similar beings regardless of their altitude in terms of > wisdom, will, knowledge, etc... > This causes the Mind (Manas) to be tripartite: pure Manas > uninfluenced by desire. Manas influenced and aspiring to higher > wisdom and universally positive and "good" actions -- > (Buddhi-Manas or Higher Manas). And 3, the Kama-Manas -- Lower > Manas, or that aspect of the mind which is under the influence of > selfish desires, emotions, passions, etc... And this influence > makes acts of selfish and careless evil possible. > The "true WE" is aware of these factors and in its momentary > decisions it voluntarily adopts one position or the other. As we > grow wise and realise that we have an ineradicable share in the > Universe (in which we have been living for aeons under many > "names" and in many races and bodies) we also realize that our > responsibilities as immortals, dealing with others who are also > immortals is a highly important one. > But that is enough I trust I have not abused your patience in all > this writing. > Best wishes as always and for the coming year > Dal > > COMPANIONS INDEED. So glad to have met you again. Old friends > truly. > > Companions, > Gene > > ======================================== > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 5:52 AM > Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > > > > December 27, 2000 > > > > Dear Gene: > > > > Quite a bit to think over. May I interject some comments > below > > in the body of yours? > > > > Also in Theosophical consideration is the fact that each > > principle is 7-fold, as it has a range that dovetails with the > > other principles at their level. > > > > So "Thought" would be 7-fold. "Feelings" also, and presumably > > meditation would also have at least 7 levels of consideration > to > > dwell on. Not so very simple. But, to disentangle them and > > assign any classifications meaning, I would suggest a common > > understanding -- as you do -- so I hazard adding my thoughts > and > > definitions to your categories, Very interesting as we seem to > > have few words in English to be exact with. > > Incidentally: as far as I know there are categories of > > "meditation." Dispassion may remove motives of selfishness. > > Universalization may install motives of use for a plurality of > > brother souls- beings-monads... But to me the important fact is > > that we are that SINGULAR CONSCIOUSNESS, which unmodified, > > persists in its unique nature as an essential UNIT, and is > > different from other -- even though it recognizes analogetic > and > > similar characteristics in those -- corresponding to its own > > faculties, but not identical. > > > > Yet, in the theosophical scheme, each Principle whether > Universal > > or Individual inter-corresponds with the rest. Buddhi > > (universality and "heart") with the Mind-manas or the mental > > faculties of thought, e=memory and anticipation. Feelings, > > desires and passions (Kama) -- so difficult to distinguish from > > Thought and Mind. These three levels seem so very important to > > recognize, organize and then utilize --- once we become aware > of > > them. They say that all advance and progress is in and through > > the MIND. "the fight is in the Mind." > > > we are the MIND -- which is also named the SOUL. > > > > > From dalval14@earthlink.net Tue Jan 02 06:29:39 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: dalval14@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 2 Jan 2001 14:29:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 1000 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2001 14:29:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2001 14:29:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Jan 2001 14:29:38 -0000 Received: from earthlink (pool0046.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.244.46]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA09633 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:29:37 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 06:24:58 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 In-Reply-To: <004301c07358$86ac02b0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> From: dalval14@earthlink.net What else? We depend on the MIND -- our mind CONSCIOUSNESS is awareness and for the Universe would it not take a UNIVERSAL MIND to encompass all adjustments to be made so that the least of entities receives its just deserts, as well as the greatest ? What is the problem? Dal ================================= -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 10:36 AM To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind Dependent upon Consciousness ????? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lester" To: ; Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 6:19 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: [bn-sd] Re: Cosmic Ideation, Intuition and Mind > Someone told me that there is a Theosophy "scale of knowledge to mystery" > which shows different levels of ability to control, to be responsible and to > know, dependent upon ?????. > > Maybe a subscriber to this list might post something on the subject? > > Thanks > > John Lester > > > > > > From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Tue Jan 02 07:45:51 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 2 Jan 2001 15:45:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 31393 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2001 15:45:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2001 15:45:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Jan 2001 16:46:54 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id HAA10622 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id HAA10615 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:45:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000f01c074d4$0f432000$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World JAN. 1st 2001 -- HAPPY NEW YEAR 2001 to you and family Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:51:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Dear Valerie and Dallas, Thankyou for your greetings. I hope you both have a wonderful millennium forthcoming. Let's not rush through it but take our time and proceed mindfully. Let's make haste slowly. Yours, Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "AA-Dal" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 3:38 AM Subject: Theos-World JAN. 1st 2001 -- HAPPY NEW YEAR 2001 to you and family > January 1st 2001 > > > DEAR FRIEND: > > This brings you our BEST WISHES > > for the coming year 2001 > > > Valerie and Dallas TenBroeck > > > > > > From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Tue Jan 02 09:45:38 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 2 Jan 2001 17:45:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 9211 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2001 17:45:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2001 17:45:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Jan 2001 17:45:37 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id JAA29229 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id JAA29224 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:24:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002101c074e1$ec4d81e0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 09:31:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" Dear Dallas, I'm referring to the seven systemic planes as listed in the standard theosophic literature. I understand plane to mean a state of consciousness. The seven planes are part of the infinite spectrum the higher the vibration the more spiritualward and the lower the vibration the more materialward. The entirely is the Light, the third aspect and appears as many yet, in reality, is one. 1. Logoic 2. Monadic 3. Atmic 4. Buddhic 5. Manasic(state of scientific wisdom) 6. Emotional(astral plane in the new use) 7. Physical(the higher four subplanes of which are your and HPB,s "astral" The above are the seven metaphysical states of consciousness within the Cosmic Physical Plane, itself one of seven, with the third from the top being the plane of Brahma(neutral) The corresponding physical states are 1. first ether 2. second ether 3. third ether 4. fourth ether(plasma) 5. gaseous 6. liguid 7. solid All is a continuum of one substance more material lower on the totem pole and more spiritual higher on the totem pole, all being relative to the observer. To me this one substance is UNDERSTANDING or LIGHT. It is integrated from the many back into the one by COMPASSION and COOPERATION amongst disciples. It is the mother aspect, intelligent activity, and that aspect of the One that raises matter from the lower and grosser up into the more spiritual light of Atma-Buddhi-Manas when matter becomes subservient to the second aspect of COMPASSION and later, WILL. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:23 AM Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > Jan 1 2001 > > Dear Gene: > > Some notes below: Hasty but perhaps some value in them. > > Thanks for the sharing, > D. > > ================================ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 10:25 AM > To: theos-talk@egroups.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > > Dear Dallas, > > I appreciate all your comments. It is very good for me to > remember the > differences so as not to get confused concerning the word astral > and it's > different uses. I know the HPB's materials are the basis and the > foundation > for all further work in theosophy. > > There are clear differences, however, between the seven states of > consciousness and the seven principles as: three of the planes of > any set of > seven planes are abstract and out of manifestation. All of the > principles > are within manifestation. The subtleties are kept in mind. > =========== > DTB As I understand it, the evolutionary scheme requires > these 7 (or 10) steps to link the separate poles established in > manifestation And called respectively SPIRIT and MATTER. > Separately I have sent comments to you on a similar subject and > tried to show how the concept of the MONAD (SPIRIT/MATTER) > pervades all manifestation and in all place, all times, and in > any of the planes of matter or of consciousness. > > As I see it, the reason for those consecutive links is to enable > the CONSCIOUSNESS of each MONAD -- which is unitary -- TO > PROGRESS UP AND DOWN THE SCALE OF RECORDING, WHICH EACH LEVEL PF > "principles" REPRESENTS. Consciousness is one for each Monad and > not many. Mahat or the Universal Mind, represents not only the > SOURCE in Primary Creation of the mind-principle (S.D. I 75) and > the rules of evolution -- as well as KARMA . > So I am little confused when you speak of several states of > consciousness unless you are looking at it from our matter > limited point of view sich as: waking, lucid dreaming, > kamic-disturbed emotional dreams, true spiritual dreams, trance, > meditation (of several kinds), hypnosis, total periods of time > when our usual consciousness appears to be blanked out and our > brain on awaking seems to have no awareness of, and the kind of > sleep induced by drugs anesthetics, etc... > The important thing is that we are always OURSELVES and not > someone else when we resume waking consciousness. H.P.B. does > mention the evil elementaries, sorcerers and black-magicians who > use their powers to "take over" the body (form) of some > individuals and then use them for their own evil or destructive > purposes. Literature offers a number of such cases. > > Dal. > > ================================ > The gross non-etheric plane is not a principle. DTB > WHAT IS IT THEN? > ------------------------------------------- > Atma is not a principle, strictly DTB It is UNIVERSAL. > Why are we "aware" of it. > ------------------------------------------- > > speaking. And. The entire emotional plane is not a principle, I > have > recently seen suggested. > ======================================== > DTB I do not understand that, as "feeling" [ including KAMA, > passions and desires] is uncertainty but also it attracts. It is > a "plane" separate from MIND and from PRANA (vitality). Mind is > a tool which is able to pierce up and down through all > possibilities (and planes of sensation) without loosing its > cohesive quality and its egoic nature. > ========================================= > > > The Buddhic-Intuitive state of consciousness is latent thought as > this is > the manifesting plane for the Monadic State of Consciousness, the > second > plane from the top, it seems. > ==================================== > > DTB Buddhi is said by H.P.B. to include the record of all > experience and event and the impression any Mind makes on matter > as it lives and makes independent choices -- the amount of data > is staggering in our concept. But is necessary for KARMA to work > unerringly and sincerely honestly for every speck of sentient > conscious material -- no matter how "unimportant." > Buddhi-manas is our Mind which is able to unite with the plane > of Buddhi and draw from it a perception of causes and their > potential effects. It is impersonal and universal, also > timeless. > > ==================================== > > This Monadic Plane, the plane of the Causeless Cause, is beyond > all possible thought(but not beyond the Heart of hearts). So it > is appropriate that Beauty, Harmony, Grace, Intuition, > Buddhi(Beauty?) be beyond actual thought. The poet speaks of > THAT beyond > all possible thought. A remarkable art, no? The successful > poet speaks of > the Absoluteness. > ====================================== > > DTB How can any principle be isolated from or "beyond" any other? > The total person is essentially a mind which is balanced between > TOTAL KNOWLEDGE (or WISDOM) and total IGNORANCE (which is > inexperience). Hence the Mind-being (you and me, etc...) have > to pass (over an immense time and many incarnations) through all > those experiences that educate it in the limitations of various > planes of matter (and its lower "principles"). > Each Mind-human has to acquire the ability to reflect in itself > without inaccuracy, and by self-effort an actual knowledge of the > WHOLE and the INFINITE. > It (the Soul-Mind) is called THE ETERNAL PILGRIM, because time is > not a factor. In our present lives TIME is a grinding factor. > We feel limited and grasp for certainties which are in themselves > limits WE ERECT through inexperience or false reasoning from > unsound bases. > > Dal > ============================= > > > All THAT there is, is the UNKNOWABLE > > Therefore, > > All that can be known is the unknowable. > > (I have just adroitly proved that I'm no poet) > > > If I were to see at the logoic level, the first plane, this would > be Atma. > ============================= > > DTB Why? > > Buddhi is only 1/2 of the eternal MONAD It is PRIMORDIAL MATTER. > It needs the contrast of its opposed SPIRIT to manifest. > > ================================== > > > If I were to see at the monadic level, this would appear as > Buddhic. > ================================================ > DTB BUDDHI is only 1/2 of the Monad and cannot exist > separately. > >From one point of view ATMA is the ONLY PRINCIPLE and the 6 other > "principles" are modifications of IT -- THE ONE AND WHOLE. > > All beings need contrast for their existence. SPIRIT is the > contrasting (opposite) pole to Buddhi which is PRIMORDIAL MATTER > (Mulaprakriti) > Dal > ========================================== > > > If I were to see at the Atmic level, the third plane, this would > be Manasic. DTB OK > > > And seeing on all these supreme levels (the upper three) would be > Atma-Buddhi-Manas. > > DTB To me this represents the INDIVIDUALITY or the components of > the IMMORTAL MAN -- the ETERNAL PILGRIM. > =================================== > > > The Buddhi-Manas part would be Hermes-Venus or Hermes-Aphrodite > or > Hermaphrodite(Collected Works, Vol. 12, early part of the Second > Instruction, around page 532 or so) > > Hence the struggle to see at the highest planes in order to one > day manifest > through the middle and transpersonal planes. > > ============================================== > DTB No conflict that I can see. The WE is actually the > individualized higher Mind or Buddhi-Manas on which the supernal > light of the "ray" of ATMA shines always. > As to vision from the plane of BUDDHI-MANAS or even > ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS (since the 3 are inseparable) is invoked > whenever the MANAS-MIND dwells on universal and universal > virtues, their origin, existence and application.. > Somehow your definitions seem to me to difficult to understand > and apply. I would strongly recommend a review of several tables > in THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY by H.P.B. pp 91-2, 135-6, 175-6. And > these could also be cross checked with the definitions H.P.B. > gives in the S.D. vol. 1, pp. 243-246. I say this because to > me those are the basis from which Theosophy starts, Later > commentators (as I have found) have erected their terminology on > these in order to define some of their own speculations, which > makes it difficult to adjust their terms to the basics. I may be > wrong, but I sense that you are using something like that. > Actually we ought to be able to deal with these things without > such definitions. But then for communication we need to use > accurate symbology in words. > > This is very interesting, > > Best wishes, > > Dal > =================================== > Brother Gene > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 5:18 PM > Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > > > > December 30, 2000 > > > > Almost the end of this year and a new millennium starts Monday. > > BEST WISHES TO YOU and yours. > > > > > > Dear Gene: > > > > I am going by the description of the qualities inherent in the > 7 > > Principles (which correspond to the 7 Universal Planes) - and > I > > use H.P.B.'s books KEY TO THEOSOPHY and THE SECRET DOCTRINE as > a > > basis . > > > > I consider the commentaries made by students who followed her > > (and of course myself) as expressions of their understanding of > > what she basically said -- and remember the Masters certified > > they were her co-authors ( PATH Vol. 8,. P. 1-4). > > > > So you will find me in trying to meet or make descriptions > using > > those originals of H.P.B. > > > > Of course there are mixtures as some aspects of metaphysics > > involve more than one set of Principles or Planes of being, > > perception and of action . > > > > So much time is spent on adjusting terminology, so meaning is > > rendered clear. Sorry. > > > > Let me add some comments to yours given below. > > > > Dal > > > > ================================ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] > > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 8:26 AM > > To: theos-talk@egroups.com > > Subject: Re: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > > > > Dear Dallas, > > > > Yes. Your comments are very helpful. What I gave out was to > be > > food for > > thought, sort of like a buddha made out of gingerbread, to be > > consumed, > > digested, some absorbed, some not. It is very interesting to > be > > able to > > follow your reasoning. > > > > I can see that whereas I am sticking to the seven planes, you > are > > expanding > > and pointing out that each of the planes as seven subplanes. > > Also you are > > associating from planes into the seven principles which are > > numbered > > differently than the planes but jive nonetheless, and I follow > > you as I'm > > familiar with the different ways of numbering the principles > and > > how Subba > > Row in his comments on the Bhragava(sp?) Gita demonstrates his > > numbering > > system. This is all good. I keep my focus better by sticking > to > > the planes > > and pondering their logical derivation: > > Will causes love and intelligent > > activity and these three have four permutations giving seven > and > > each of the > > seven have seven, etc, and I'm constantly retreating back to > the > > Will or the > > Three Aspects(The Will and it's two effects, Love and > Intellect). > > I might > > point out that the lists of Seven are all using different words > > to describe > > the same seven planes. One list I didn't use might be > > clarifying: > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > DTB Will (as I understand it) is a faculty used by the MONAD > to > > achieve any result on any plane of matter. For instance you > > desire to lift your pencil. The thought is activated by the > > desire impulse, the mind decides that it is a legitimate > action, > > the will is engaged to transmit the thought into action by > > activating the brain centers which transmit neural directions > to > > the appropriate muscles, etc.. All done in a "flash." I think > you > > will find the sequence correct. "Deciding that an action is > > legitimate" is where the moral equation comes in. On can spend > a > > great deal of time establishing that. Is the pencil to be used > > casually, or with the intent to assist or harm -- and so on. > > What kind of feelings, and / or thoughts lie behind the use of > > that pencil, -- and so on. > > -------------------------------------- > > Yours My comments > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > ----------- > > 1. DTB ZERO REALLY as we have no concept of ITS REALITY. > > > > 2. Absoluteness DTB NO THING > > > > 3. Absolute DTB NOTHING (see S.D. I p. 27 ) > > > > 4. Buddhic(latent thought) DTB WHY LATENT? It can be > > activated and relied on at need. > > MEMORY certainly, but serves MIND (the active agent), as a > basis > > for comparing earlier recorded results and determining the > > probable outcome of any act, word or feeling. (This -- I think > > may be called -- a service from the universal Akasa to the > > individualized Buddhi, and displayed to the Mind more and more > > clearly as it (the Mind) attempts to secure a clear view of > > TRUTH -- so that it can choose the best course available.) > > If we are seeking for the most appropriate MORAL aspect of > > thought this would indeed bring on the conjunction of BUDDHI > and > > MANAS. This is also called the HIGHER-MIND or Buddhi-Manas. > It > > is a act of the tripartite SPIRITUAL SELF ( ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) > > in trying to give the best "advice" to the inquiring LOWER > > MIND -- all of us, who seek to do "the best that we can." > > > > 5. Manasic(actual thought) DTB PERHAPS YOU MEAN THE THOUGHTS > WE > > GENERATE WHEN WE RESPOND OR GENERATE IDEAS BASED ON OUR PRESENT > > INVOLVEMENT WITH MATERIAL THINGS ? Most of these have a > personal > > or selfish basis. But under the pressure of experience at some > > time the Lower Manas wakes up to the fact that its choices have > > often led it astray into painful experiences -- so it resolves > to > > look for a better advisor -- a better way to choose actions, > > words, feelings. > > > > 6. Astral(emotions) DTB NOT part of my concept, as the word > > "astral" as first used in H.P.B.'s and Masters' expositions > > related solely to the electro-magnetic world which is interior > to > > the physical and serves as a basis for its being -- as a > location > > pattern for atoms, molecules, cells, etc...hence, > > electro-magnetic in nature -- some all it the real body, as the > > physical rests in and on it. A knowledge of this adds > > substantially to one's ability to heal disease, etc... And to > > this was its other capacity of recording all the events that > > concerned Lower Manas > > DTB EMOTIONS (desires, passions, yearnings, etc. ) H.P.B. > > relegates to the plane of KAMA -- DESIRE in Sanskrit. And this > is > > distinct from the plane of PRANA / JIVA or vitality the general > > Life-current in man and Nature. > > DTB Plane of PRANA or vital breath in Man -- the > life-currents > > JIVA, this is perhaps one of the most difficult to define, as > > it relates to the tensile strength of the body and has to do > with > > the Karma of our incarnation in any one place, time and for > > whatever purpose our life is set for) and > > DTB Plane of the Astral (pattern body of electro-magnetic > > substance) and which also a storage place to act as a > recording > > center for all kinds of moral/ethical events and problems. It > is > > said to be the lowest aspect of the Akasa. > > 7. Physical(the etheric aspect of the physical plane) DTB THIS > > APPEARS TO HAVE THE QUALITIES OF WHAT I TERM THE ASTRAL PLANE. > > Just above here. > > DTB Physical Body and Physical matter of all kinds -- (in terms > > of an earlier example its like the whirling fan blades that > > resent an obstruction to other kinds of matter. When those > > "blades" are stilled one can safely pass matter between them. > > When in motion they obstruct or injure.) > > ================================== > > > > I'm finding that things go better for me if I focus on the > upper > > three > > planes using my abstract mind as best I can. > > DTB I would not try to pin-point in such a way, as all thought > > when put into comprehensible words and expressions are filtered > > through the "Lower Mind" or Kama-manas -- which is the link > > between the "personality (the lower 4)" and the INDIVIDUALITY, > > the Spiritual triad "above." This filter can sometimes distort > > the understanding, or blur what one intends to convey. > > > > I'm trying to understand these DTB SO AM I > > > > as best I can before again cycling downward through the four > > "lower" > > permutations of the these states of consciousness. > > I am the concrete and practical minded one bridging to the > > abstract mind and trying to receive > > through that abstract mind the latent thought, beyond actual > > thought, of the > > buddhic intuition which is, in a very real sense, the beauty of > > the Atmic > > state of consciousness, containing the unity of our future, for > > us, > > perfected humanity. > > ------------------------------------------ > > DTB IF YOU want to phrase it in that way, then do so. But I > > don't think there is much profit in making such an > identification > > FROM THIS MATERIAL LEVEL OF CONCEPTUALIZATION. But as I say if > > it helps than use the ideas and concepts. > > But let me add a word of caution don't let them (present words > > and ideas) trap you in altogether too defining boxes or limits. > > (Our existence in "matter" has a tendency to make us rigid -- > we > > depend on past thinking and don't realise that we have > graduated, > > and need new concepts, l mean a phrase, words, ideas, etc... > to > > better define what we have added to our past conclusions and > > definitions -- or, what we have learned and proved to > ourselves > > to be valid THEN. > > If you notice, NATURE is made up of many combinations and does > > not stop to reason out the whys and the wherefores. It does it > > because it is RIGHT TO BE DONE. For us, we have (because we > are > > emerging from the gross limits of matter) to define as we go, > > cautiously and with whatever degree of certainty we can muster. > > But keep the definitions as a relatively unimportant aspect of > > our work -- as I think you will find, as I did that this > ability > > to stay focused on a concept (but not on words) helps. So > > difficult to convey exactly what I mean. > > Another example: The word ABSOLUTE or ABSOLUTENESS means > nothing > > to us until that moment when MANIFESTATION and EVOLUTION > > rebegins. Then they achieve meaning as being that which > > anteceded this fresh BEGINNING -- and remains as an unchanged > > background. If you take a stone or a brick out of a wall the > > SPACE is left there undisturbed. > > ========================================= > > All of your comments are right-on and very well > > reasoned. I shall not comment on them as you will further > dance > > with them > > as you choose. I will happily return to the focus of trying to > > understand > > the perfected human intellect as it is bathed in the love > beyond > > all > > possible thought, this love the operation of the Will of God, > our > > solar > > logos. > > ----------------------------------------------- > > DTB WILL OF GOD is a very strange expression as it places GOD > as > > a very large BEING somewhere -- as a kind of whimsical overseer > > who at its pleasure might wave a hand or waft a thought and > > render all activity fruitless and abortive. That to me is a > > fallacy. ORDERLINESS does not depend on DISORDER or WHIMS, or > > FANCY, or any kind of being however small or large. Every bit > of > > evidence I have secured points to LAW and ORDER and PROGRESS, > and > > the ACHIEVEMENT OF A GOAL. > > One may indeed place LOVE at the head of all things, It may be > a > > transcendent DESIRE for the GOOD of ALL. I think that takes > care > > of the level of motive as it is universalized and made > impersonal > > "for the good of all." > > But the WILL action that we AUTHORIZE and select, is the > ability > > to put this desire into living action. We may follow it, and > see > > it moving all the various links from plane to plane and > principle > > to principle, so as to finally engender a physical plane > result, > > action, etc... . > > To me, it would imply a merging of the small self that we are > > into the UNIVERSAL SELF of ALL. HARMONY is the KEY to true > > LIVING. I think. One might even all it a kind of meditation as > > such a repeated action brings on the attunement of all the > > "Skandhas" (which are themselves Monads -- but of lesser > > experience than ours). > > I wonder if you read the article THE ELIXIR OF LIFE -- it is > the > > first in FIVE YEARS OF THEOSOPHY. It speaks there of the > > transformation of our "little lives" (the skandhas) into a > > permanent relation with us based on the honest and sincere > > voluntary election to live and act "for the good of all > > creatures." > > ================================== > > To let this divine love operate on my little evolving intellect > > and > > one day bring me face to face with this will is rather like > life > > itself. To > > more fully participate in our mind and our consciousness and > our > > father's > > will is a trip! > > ---------------------------------------------- > > DTB I would say that the expressions used such as "face to face > > with this will," and "our father's will" imply we know those > are > > NOT SEPARATE from us (except in the imagination of our lower > > mind). As we grow in perception of the INNER MAN the potential > > of rendering the virtues the real base for life and action > > becomes more apparent. > > One ought not to consider the Mind, the Will, the Buddhi, and > > Atma as distant and remote. (I can see that our education has > > tended to produce such an impress on us hat we think in those > > terms. I can see how in school I was so impressed, but later I > > saw this was not so). > > I take the position that I am immortal because I am a "ray" of > > the universal ATMAN. This is associated with UNIVERSAL MATTER > > and the ensuing combination is also immortal and is called the > > MONAD in evolution. > > Of necessity the Mind (Manas) is associated with the MONAD and > > all three form the IMMORTAL human EGO which is immortal and > > eternal and passes from body to body life after life, always > > growing and deepening its understanding of the ways and laws > and > > rules of NATURE -- the UNIVERSE in which it lives and in which > it > > participates (under the law of universal KARMA) with the work > of > > all other similar beings regardless of their altitude in terms > of > > wisdom, will, knowledge, etc... > > This causes the Mind (Manas) to be tripartite: pure Manas > > uninfluenced by desire. Manas influenced and aspiring to > higher > > wisdom and universally positive and "good" actions -- > > (Buddhi-Manas or Higher Manas). And 3, the Kama-Manas -- Lower > > Manas, or that aspect of the mind which is under the influence > of > > selfish desires, emotions, passions, etc... And this influence > > makes acts of selfish and careless evil possible. > > The "true WE" is aware of these factors and in its momentary > > decisions it voluntarily adopts one position or the other. As > we > > grow wise and realise that we have an ineradicable share in the > > Universe (in which we have been living for aeons under many > > "names" and in many races and bodies) we also realize that our > > responsibilities as immortals, dealing with others who are also > > immortals is a highly important one. > > But that is enough I trust I have not abused your patience in > all > > this writing. > > Best wishes as always and for the coming year > > Dal > > > > COMPANIONS INDEED. So glad to have met you again. Old friends > > truly. > > > > Companions, > > Gene > > > > ======================================== > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 5:52 AM > > Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it? > > > > > > > December 27, 2000 > > > > > > Dear Gene: > > > > > > Quite a bit to think over. May I interject some comments > > below > > > in the body of yours? > > > > > > Also in Theosophical consideration is the fact that each > > > principle is 7-fold, as it has a range that dovetails with > the > > > other principles at their level. > > > > > > So "Thought" would be 7-fold. "Feelings" also, and > presumably > > > meditation would also have at least 7 levels of consideration > > to > > > dwell on. Not so very simple. But, to disentangle them and > > > assign any classifications meaning, I would suggest a common > > > understanding -- as you do -- so I hazard adding my thoughts > > and > > > definitions to your categories, Very interesting as we seem > to > > > have few words in English to be exact with. > > > Incidentally: as far as I know there are categories of > > > "meditation." Dispassion may remove motives of selfishness. > > > Universalization may install motives of use for a plurality > of > > > brother souls- beings-monads... But to me the important fact > is > > > that we are that SINGULAR CONSCIOUSNESS, which unmodified, > > > persists in its unique nature as an essential UNIT, and is > > > different from other -- even though it recognizes analogetic > > and > > > similar characteristics in those -- corresponding to its own > > > faculties, but not identical. > > > > > > Yet, in the theosophical scheme, each Principle whether > > Universal > > > or Individual inter-corresponds with the rest. Buddhi > > > (universality and "heart") with the Mind-manas or the mental > > > faculties of thought, e=memory and anticipation. Feelings, > > > desires and passions (Kama) -- so difficult to distinguish > from > > > Thought and Mind. These three levels seem so very important > to > > > recognize, organize and then utilize --- once we become aware > > of > > > them. They say that all advance and progress is in and > through > > > the MIND. "the fight is in the Mind." > > > > > we are the MIND -- which is also named the SOUL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Tue Jan 02 14:44:53 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 2 Jan 2001 22:44:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 81668 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2001 22:44:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Jan 2001 22:44:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pippin.imagiware.com) (205.254.196.9) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Jan 2001 22:44:52 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (magic1.co.la.ca.us [159.83.181.42]) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA32734 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:55:35 -0600 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id OAA25451; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id OAA25432; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:44:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00ac01c0750e$9a497070$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: Cc: "Esoteric Science" Subject: Struggling to find the origin of the point of it All. Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 14:51:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A9_01C074CB.8B672630" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" ------=_NextPart_000_00A9_01C074CB.8B672630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Group, I'm trying to understand whether or not the first three states or planes of= consciousness correspond to the first three sets: zero, one and two. And = if so gain insight into the intimacy of these planes through meditating on = the intimate relationships between these sets. 1. Empty Set 2. Set containing the empty set 3. Set containing both of the above or. 1. Zero 2. One 3. Two or. 1. ( ) 2. ( ( ) ) 3. ( ( ), ( ( ) ) ) Let's pretend that we enter into the empty set as if it were an empty consc= iousness. Then we might "see": 1.=20 2. ( ) 3. ( ( ), ) In other words:=20 1. Consciousness which is empty 2. Consciousness which contains the=20 representation of empty=20 consciousness 3. Consciousness which contains repre- sentations of both states above. Two things one might notice which seem very very cool. If one is at the third state of consciousness and focuses on the number 1.= state one becomes most resonate with the number 2. state. ( ) If one is at the third state but instead focusing on the representation of = number 2. then one would be most resonant with the number 3. state. ( ( ) ) By doing so the effect would be to be resonant to the number 2. state and t= hen to the number 3. state, like going in and out of pralaya.( from Atma t= o Monadic, back to=20 Atma, etc.) The other interesting observation is to recognize that: 1. Here there is no inside and no outside and can be no symbol. A mathematical point has no inside but must have= an outside. 2. Here there is inside but no outside,=20 in fact, all of abstract space itself. There is no abstract space outside of abstract space. 3. Here there is that which has inside but=20 no outside together, but it is together in the same state=20 of consciousness as that with no inside=20 and no outside, ( that with no inside and no outside is like a mathemat= ical point without any space in which to be expressed.) BUT Can't these two, now found in state number 3., now be superimposed? We co= uld then get: 1. 2. ( ) 3. ( . ) Now, at level three, the mathematical point can appear as the abstract spac= e it needed was represented at level two. One can concentrate on the point= without any abstract space, and fail, or one can concentrate on the space = without any point, and just rest, or one can concentrate on both and then t= he point can appear. This is why I'm thinking that the first three sets in mathematics correspon= ds to the first three abstract planes in any septenate of states(or planes)= of consciousness. 1. Zero 2. One 3. Two=20 re-presented as 1. 2. ( ) 3. ( . ) This yields our beginning and ending point and it can polarize into the lin= e and the line can be used to construct a triangle and the triangle can be = used to construct a tetrahedron, etc. o ( . ) ( . . ) ( . . . ) ( . . . . ) Gene ------=_NextPart_000_00A9_01C074CB.8B672630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Group,
 
 
I'm trying to understand whether or not th= e first=20 three states or planes of consciousness correspond to the first three sets:= =20 zero, one and two.  And if so gain insight into the intimacy of these= =20 planes through meditating on the intimate relationships between these=20 sets.
 
 
 
1.  Empty Set
 
2.  Set containing the empty set
 
3.  Set containing both of the=20 above
 
 
or.
 
 
 
1. Zero
 
2. One
 
3. Two
 
 
 
or.
 
 
 
 
1.  (     &n= bsp;=20  )
 
2.  (  (  )  )<= /DIV>
 
3.  (       ( ), = (  (=20 )  )      )
 
 
 
Let's pretend that we enter into the empty= set as=20 if it were an empty consciousness.  Then we might "see":
 
 
1.
 
2. (      =20 )
 
3. (   ( ),  &nbs= p; =20 )
 
 
In other words:
 
1. Consciousness which is empty
 
2. Consciousness which contains the
     representation of= empty=20
     consciousness
 
3. Consciousness which contains=20 repre-
     sentations of bot= h states=20 above.
 
 
Two things one might notice which seem ver= y very=20 cool.
 
If one is at the third state of consciousn= ess and=20 focuses on the  number 1. state one becomes most resona= te=20 with the number 2. state.
 
(           = ;        =20 )
 
 
If one is at the third state but instead f= ocusing=20 on the representation of number 2. then one would be most resonant with=20 the number  3. state.
 
(  (   =20 )           )
 
 
By doing so the effect would be to be reso= nant to=20 the number 2. state and then to the number 3. state,  l= ike=20 going in and out of pralaya.( from Atma to Monadic, back to
Atma, etc.)
 
 
 
The other interesting observation is to re= cognize=20 that:
 
1. Here there is no inside and no=20 outside
    and can be no symbol.&n= bsp; A=20 mathematical point has no inside but must have an outside.
 
2. Here there is inside but no outside,=20
    in fact, all of abstrac= t space=20 itself.  There is no abstract
    space outside of abstra= ct=20 space.
 
 
3. Here there is that which has inside but= =20
    no outside together, bu= t it is=20 together in the same state
    of consciousness as tha= t with no=20 inside 
    and no outside, ( that = with no=20 inside and no outside is like a mathematical
    point without any space= in which=20 to be
    expressed.)
 
 
BUT
 
 
 Can't these two, now found in state = number=20 3.,  now be superimposed? We could then get:
 
 
1.
 
2.=20 (            &n= bsp;=20 )
 
3. (     =20 .       )
 
 
 
Now, at level three, the mathematical poin= t can=20 appear as the abstract space it needed was represented at level two.  = One=20 can concentrate on the point without any abstract space, and fail, or = one=20 can concentrate on the space without any point, and just rest, or one = can=20 concentrate on both and then the point can appear.
 
 
This is why I'm thinking that the first th= ree sets=20 in mathematics corresponds to the first three abstract planes in any septen= ate=20 of states(or planes) of consciousness.
 
1. Zero
 
2. One
 
3. Two
 
re-presented as
 
 
1.
 
2. =20 (           =20 )
 
3.  (     =20 .     )
 
 
This yields our beginning and ending point= and it=20 can polarize into the line and the line can be used to construct a triangle= and=20 the triangle can be used to construct a tetrahedron, etc.
 
 
 
 
           =20 o
(        &nb= sp; =20 .            )
 
(       =20 .      .        )<= /DIV>
 
( =20     .     .   &= nbsp;=20 .     )
 
(   .   =20  .    .   =20  .   )
 
 
 
 
Gene
------=_NextPart_000_00A9_01C074CB.8B672630-- From bartl@sprynet.com Tue Jan 02 15:55:24 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bartl@sprynet.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 2 Jan 2001 23:55:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 91339 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2001 23:55:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Jan 2001 23:55:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO escape.com) (198.6.71.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Jan 2001 23:55:22 -0000 Received: from sprynet.com ([64.24.47.44]) by escape.com ; Tue, 02 Jan 2001 18:52:08 -3736631 Message-ID: <3A526A65.4EB82B26@sprynet.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 18:55:17 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@egroups.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Aphelion References: <3.0.3.32.20010101234620.00778f2c@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bart Lidofsky ramadoss@mail.eden.com wrote: > > At 03:56 PM 1/1/01 -0800, Nick Weeks wrote: > >Some theosophical groups have a practice of taking a summer break around > >July. Perhaps (consciously or unconsciously, I do not know) they are > >avoiding having any "esoteric" or "meditative" gatherings in thought because > >of possible dangers around aphelion. > > In all the years I spent in India, I have not seen the summer break around > July. On the other hand, many groups in the USA suspend all activities > during summer break much like the schools having summer off. There are a number of reasons for that. Expense of air conditioning, many people taking vacations, and, for larger lodges, giving the volunteer staff a break all figure into the equation. In Pumpkin Hollow Farm in New York, the reverse is true; the summer is the busy time, and the winter is when they take a break. Bart Lidofsky From info@blavatskyarchives.com Tue Jan 02 23:25:13 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: info@blavatskyarchives.com X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 3 Jan 2001 07:25:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 84093 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2001 07:25:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Jan 2001 07:25:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail01.san.yahoo.com) (209.132.1.35) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Jan 2001 07:25:12 -0000 Received: by mail01.san.yahoo.com (5.1.053) id 39FF3D12026AA952; Tue, 2 Jan 2001 23:15:18 -0800 Message-ID: <39FF3D1500020028@mail01.san.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 00:15:17 -0700 Subject: Esoteric World of Madame Blavatsky: Revised & Expanded Edition . . . Just Published! Reply-To: info@blavatskyarchives.com To: info@blavatskyarchives.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Blavatsky Archives" THE ESOTERIC WORLD OF MADAME BLAVATSKY Collected by Daniel H. Caldwell Revised & Expanded Edition of this book. . . Just Published! Personal reminiscences by more than sixty of Madame Blavatsky's contemporar= ies give a vivid portrayal of one of the most extraordinary and controversial figures of modern times. This new edition is illustrated with more than forty photographs. Some of these photos have never been published before. Anyone interested in H.P. Blavatsky's life and work will want to have this hardbound volume of rare source materials. Give a copy to a friend or to your local library. Published by The Theosophical Publishing House, Wheato= n, Illinois, USA.=20=20 For more information, see http://blavatskyarchives.com/esotericworld.htm --------------------------------------- Daniel H. Caldwell info@blavatskyarchives.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES http://www.blavatskyarchives.com http://blavatsky.cc http://theosophyonthe.net You can always access our site by simply typing into the URL address bar the following 6 characters: hpb.cc --------------------------------------- From alpha@dircon.co.uk Wed Jan 03 02:30:23 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: alpha@dircon.co.uk X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 3 Jan 2001 10:30:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 93016 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2001 10:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Jan 2001 10:30:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailhost1.dircon.co.uk) (194.112.32.65) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Jan 2001 10:30:20 -0000 Received: from default (th-en136-167.pool.dircon.co.uk [194.112.54.167]) by mailhost1.dircon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA48990 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:30:15 GMT To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Struggling to find the origin of the point of it All. Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:31:34 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C07570.58DC6680" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00ac01c0750e$9a497070$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Tony" ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C07570.58DC6680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Eugene You write <<>> Although not understanding all you have written, <<>> would appear to be the operative "word." Between 1 and 2 and between 2 and 3, the "and". Your mail ends with the ten "dots," but does the significance lie in between the dots? The seven hidden mathematical points...here is the whole quote from "The Secret Doctrine" pages 612-613): "Theo philosophy proceeds on broader lines. From the very beginning of AEons -- in time and space in our Round and Globe -- the Mysteries of Nature (at any rate, those which it is lawful for our races to know) were recorded by the pupils of those same now invisible "heavenly men," in geometrical figures and symbols. The keys thereto passed from one generation of "wise men" to the other. Some of the symbols, thus passed from the east to the west, were brought therefrom by Pythagoras, who was not the inventor of his famous "Triangle." The latter figure, along with the plane cube and circle, are more eloquent and scientific descriptions of the order of the evolution of the Universe, spiritual and psychic, as well as physical, than volumes of descriptive Cosmogonies and revealed "Geneses." The ten points inscribed within that "Pythagorean triangle" are worth all the theogonies and angelologies ever emanated from the theological brain. For he who interprets them -- on their very face, and in the order given -- will find in these seventeen points (the seven Mathematical Points hidden) the uninterrupted series of the genealogies from the first Heavenly to terrestrial man. And, as they give the order of Beings, so they reveal the order in which were evolved the Kosmos, our earth, and the primordial elements which the latter was generated. Begotten in the invisible Depths, and in the womb of the same "Mother" as its fellow-globes -- he who will master the mysteries of our Earth, will have mastered those of all others." Tony -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] Sent: 2 January 2001 10:52 pm To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Cc: Esoteric Science Subject: Theos-World Struggling to find the origin of the point of it All. Dear Group, I'm trying to understand whether or not the first three states or planes of consciousness correspond to the first three sets: zero, one and two. And if so gain insight into the intimacy of these planes through meditating on the intimate relationships between these sets. 1. Empty Set 2. Set containing the empty set 3. Set containing both of the above or. 1. Zero 2. One 3. Two or. 1. ( ) 2. ( ( ) ) 3. ( ( ), ( ( ) ) ) Let's pretend that we enter into the empty set as if it were an empty consciousness. Then we might "see": 1. 2. ( ) 3. ( ( ), ) In other words: 1. Consciousness which is empty 2. Consciousness which contains the representation of empty consciousness 3. Consciousness which contains repre- sentations of both states above. Two things one might notice which seem very very cool. If one is at the third state of consciousness and focuses on the number 1. state one becomes most resonate with the number 2. state. ( ) If one is at the third state but instead focusing on the representation of number 2. then one would be most resonant with the number 3. state. ( ( ) ) By doing so the effect would be to be resonant to the number 2. state and then to the number 3. state, like going in and out of pralaya.( from Atma to Monadic, back to Atma, etc.) The other interesting observation is to recognize that: 1. Here there is no inside and no outside and can be no symbol. A mathematical point has no inside but must have an outside. 2. Here there is inside but no outside, in fact, all of abstract space itself. There is no abstract space outside of abstract space. 3. Here there is that which has inside but no outside together, but it is together in the same state of consciousness as that with no inside and no outside, ( that with no inside and no outside is like a mathematical point without any space in which to be expressed.) BUT Can't these two, now found in state number 3., now be superimposed? We could then get: 1. 2. ( ) 3. ( . ) Now, at level three, the mathematical point can appear as the abstract space it needed was represented at level two. One can concentrate on the point without any abstract space, and fail, or one can concentrate on the space without any point, and just rest, or one can concentrate on both and then the point can appear. This is why I'm thinking that the first three sets in mathematics corresponds to the first three abstract planes in any septenate of states(or planes) of consciousness. 1. Zero 2. One 3. Two re-presented as 1. 2. ( ) 3. ( . ) This yields our beginning and ending point and it can polarize into the line and the line can be used to construct a triangle and the triangle can be used to construct a tetrahedron, etc. o ( . ) ( . . ) ( . . . ) ( . . . . ) Gene ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C07570.58DC6680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear=20 Eugene
 
You=20 write
<<<on the intimate relationships betwee= n these=20 sets.>>>
 
Although not understanding all you have written,= =20
<<<between>>> would appear to = be the=20 operative "word."
 
Between 1 and 2 and between 2 and 3, the=20 "and".
 
Your=20 mail ends with the ten "dots," but does the significance lie in between the= =20 dots?   The seven hidden mathematical points...here is the whole = quote=20 from "The Secret Doctrine" pages 612-613):
 
"Theo philosoph= y proceeds on=20 broader lines. From the very beginning of AEons -- in time and space in our= =20 Round and Globe -- the Mysteries of Nature (at any rate, those which it is= =20 lawful for our races to know) were recorded by the pupils of those same now= =20 invisible "heavenly men," in geometrical figures and symbols. The keys ther= eto=20 passed from one generation of "wise men" to the other. Some of the symbols,= thus=20 passed from the east to the west, were brought therefrom by Pythagoras, who= was=20 not the inventor of his famous "Triangle." The latter figure, along with th= e=20 plane cube and circle, are more eloquent and scientific descriptions of the= =20 order of the evolution of the Universe, spiritual and psychic, as well as=20 physical, than volumes of descriptive Cosmogonies and revealed "Geneses." T= he=20 ten points inscribed within that "Pythagorean triangle" are worth all the=20 theogonies and angelologies ever emanated from the theological brain. For h= e who=20 interprets them -- on their very face, and in the order given -- will find = in=20 these seventeen points (the seven Mathematical Points hidden) the uninterru= pted=20 series of the genealogies from the first Heavenly to terrestrial man. And, = as=20 they give the order of Beings, so they reveal the order in which were evolv= ed=20 the Kosmos, our earth, and the primordial elements which the latter was generated. Begotten= in the=20 invisible Depths, and in the womb of the same "Mother" as its fellow-globes= --=20 he who will master the mysteries of our Earth, will have mastered those of = all=20 others."

Tony

 
 
 
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Carpenter=20 [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
Sent: 2 January 2001 10:52=20 pm
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Cc: Esoteric=20 Science
Subject: Theos-World Struggling to find the origin of the= =20 point of it All.

Dear Group,
 
 
I'm trying to understand whether or not = the first=20 three states or planes of consciousness correspond to the first three set= s:=20 zero, one and two.  And if so gain insight into the intimacy of thes= e=20 planes through meditating on the intimate relationships between these=20 sets.
 
 
 
1.  Empty Set
 
2.  Set containing the empty=20 set
 
3.  Set containing both of the=20 above
 
 
or.
 
 
 
1. Zero
 
2. One
 
3. Two
 
 
 
or.
 
 
 
 
1.  (     =  =20  )
 
2.  (  (  )  )
 
3.  (       ( )= , ( =20 ( )  )      )
 
 
 
Let's pretend that we enter into the emp= ty set as=20 if it were an empty consciousness.  Then we might "see":
 
 
1.
 
2. (      = =20 )
 
3. (   (=20 ),     )
 
 
In other words:
 
1. Consciousness which is empty
 
2. Consciousness which contains the
     representation = of empty=20
    =20 consciousness
 
3. Consciousness which contains=20 repre-
     sentations of b= oth=20 states above.
 
 
Two things one might notice which seem v= ery very=20 cool.
 
If one is at the third state of consciou= sness and=20 focuses on the  number 1. state one becomes most reso= nate=20 with the number 2. state.
 
(          &nb= sp;        =20 )
 
 
If one is at the third state but instead= focusing=20 on the representation of number 2. then one would be most resonant with=20 the number  3. state.
 
(  (   =20 )           )
 
 
By doing so the effect would be to be re= sonant to=20 the number 2. state and then to the number 3. state, = like=20 going in and out of pralaya.( from Atma to Monadic, back to
Atma, etc.)
 
 
 
The other interesting observation is to = recognize=20 that:
 
1. Here there is no inside and no=20 outside
    and can be no symbol.=   A=20 mathematical point has no inside but must have an outside.
 
2. Here there is inside but no outside,= =20
    in fact, all of abstr= act space=20 itself.  There is no abstract
    space outside of abst= ract=20 space.
 
 
3. Here there is that which has inside b= ut=20
    no outside together, = but it is=20 together in the same state
    of consciousness as t= hat with=20 no inside 
    and no outside, ( tha= t with no=20 inside and no outside is like a mathematical
    point without any spa= ce in=20 which to be
    expressed.)
 
 
BUT
 
 
 Can't these two, now found in stat= e number=20 3.,  now be superimposed? We could then get:
 
 
1.
 
2.=20 (            =  =20 )
 
3. (     =20 .       )
 
 
 
Now, at level three, the mathematical po= int can=20 appear as the abstract space it needed was represented at level two. = ; One=20 can concentrate on the point without any abstract space, and fail, o= r one=20 can concentrate on the space without any point, and just rest, or on= e can=20 concentrate on both and then the point can appear.
 
 
This is why I'm thinking that the first = three=20 sets in mathematics corresponds to the first three abstract planes in any= =20 septenate of states(or planes) of consciousness.
 
1. Zero
 
2. One
 
3. Two
 
re-presented as
 
 
1.
 
2. =20 (           =20 )
 
3.  (     = =20 .     )
 
 
This yields our beginning and ending poi= nt and it=20 can polarize into the line and the line can be used to construct a triang= le=20 and the triangle can be used to construct a tetrahedron, etc.
 
 
 
 
           =20 o
(     =20      .        =20    )
 
(       =20 .      .       =20 )
 
( =20     .     .   = ; =20 .     )
 
(   .   =20  .    .   =20  .   )
 
 
 
 
Gene
------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C07570.58DC6680-- From Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us Wed Jan 03 07:53:49 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ecarpent@co.la.ca.us X-Apparently-To: theos-talk@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 3 Jan 2001 15:53:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 41425 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2001 15:53:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Jan 2001 15:53:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO magic1.co.la.ca.us) (159.83.181.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Jan 2001 16:54:40 -0000 Received: from magic1.co.la.ca.us (root@localhost) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with ESMTP id HAA03731 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:53:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from toetag105 ([10.2.32.41]) by magic1.co.la.ca.us with SMTP id HAA03725 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:53:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002f01c0759e$524351c0$2920020a@its.co.la.ca.us> To: References: Subject: Re: Theos-World Struggling to find the origin of the point of it All. Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:59:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01C0755B.1A4531F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Eugene Carpenter" ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C0755B.1A4531F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Tony, I am trying to work from universals downward and wish to find and then proc= eed step by step downward from the most spiritual to the more material. I = wish every step to be logical and provable and subject to intense construct= ive criticism. There are assumptions on which plane geometry is constructed. 'twould be= neat to start at the beginning without any assumptions whatsoever, no? When I listed the ten dots I am getting into an area that I would love to u= nderstand better but don't. I was delighted when a mathematician pointed o= ut to me that the point, the two points of the line, the three points of th= e triangle and the four points of the tetrhedron form the ten points of the= tetractys. So one has: (on the microcosmic scale) 1. Logoic plane(state of consciousness) 2. Monadic plane 3. Atmic plane: Atma, the one mathematical point within the circle 4. Buddhic plane: the two points of the line 5. Manasic plane(higher Manas): the three points of the triangle Manasic plane(lower Manas): the four points of the tetrahedron( here I'= m not at all clear, I've always studied the SD down to the level of the tri= angle and then stopped, so . . . . help! I'm guessing that the tetrahedron= stands for the concrete, practical mind) The paragraph you have quoted seems so important and crucial to understand.= Perhaps others might help clarify. I wish to stay focussed on the proble= m of "where" the mathematical point comes from. I suspect that it is poten= tial only at the logoic plane as there is nothing, no abstract space even, = that might allow it to appear. The circle representing Total unconditioned= consciousness and bare subjectivity must be PRESENT in order for the point= to "Appear" and start the creative cycle once again. My experience is tha= t I get tired, I forget, then I rest and meditate . . . . and remember: ess= entially it is all absolutely nothing whatsoever! To me this is a tiny spa= rk of enlightenment. It takes so little to make fool laugh and giggle. Gene ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tony=20 To: theos-talk@egroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:31 AM Subject: RE: Theos-World Struggling to find the origin of the point of it= All. Dear Eugene You write=20 <<>> Although not understanding all you have written,=20 <<>> would appear to be the operative "word." Between 1 and 2 and between 2 and 3, the "and". Your mail ends with the ten "dots," but does the significance lie in betw= een the dots? The seven hidden mathematical points...here is the whole qu= ote from "The Secret Doctrine" pages 612-613): "Theo philosophy proceeds on broader lines. From the very beginning of AE= ons -- in time and space in our Round and Globe -- the Mysteries of Nature = (at any rate, those which it is lawful for our races to know) were recorded= by the pupils of those same now invisible "heavenly men," in geometrical f= igures and symbols. The keys thereto passed from one generation of "wise me= n" to the other. Some of the symbols, thus passed from the east to the west= , were brought therefrom by Pythagoras, who was not the inventor of his fam= ous "Triangle." The latter figure, along with the plane cube and circle, ar= e more eloquent and scientific descriptions of the order of the evolution o= f the Universe, spiritual and psychic, as well as physical, than volumes of= descriptive Cosmogonies and revealed "Geneses." The ten points inscribed w= ithin that "Pythagorean triangle" are worth all the theogonies and angelolo= gies ever emanated from the theological brain. For he who interprets them -= - on their very face, and in the order given -- will find in these seventee= n points (the seven Mathematical Points hidden) the uninterrupted series of= the genealogies from the first Heavenly to terrestrial man. And, as they g= ive the order of Beings, so they reveal the order in which were evolved the= Kosmos, our earth, and the primordial elements which the latter was genera= ted. Begotten in the invisible Depths, and in the womb of the same "Mother"= as its fellow-globes -- he who will master the mysteries of our Earth, wil= l have mastered those of all others."=20 Tony -----Original Message----- From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us] Sent: 2 January 2001 10:52 pm To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Cc: Esoteric Science Subject: Theos-World Struggling to find the origin of the point of it All= . Dear Group, I'm trying to understand whether or not the first three states or plane= s of consciousness correspond to the first three sets: zero, one and two. = And if so gain insight into the intimacy of these planes through meditating= on the intimate relationships between these sets. 1. Empty Set 2. Set containing the empty set 3. Set containing both of the above or. 1. Zero 2. One 3. Two or. 1. ( ) 2. ( ( ) ) 3. ( ( ), ( ( ) ) ) Let's pretend that we enter into the empty set as if it were an empty c= onsciousness. Then we might "see": 1.=20 2. ( ) 3. ( ( ), ) In other words:=20 1. Consciousness which is empty 2. Consciousness which contains the=20 representation of empty=20 consciousness 3. Consciou