From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Apr 1 18:00:40 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA26987 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 17:51:22 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000401174252.00aea2a0@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 17:42:52 -0600 To: murdicrj@esvax.es.dupont.com, murdicr@del.net, theos-l@list.vnet.net From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theos-World RE: How Theosophists were ahead of the curve? Cc: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Bob: You have raised a very interesting question of much interest to many theosophists. I am posting it on theos-l and theos-talk so that we may get some discussion going. mkr At 08:57 AM 03/30/2000 -0500, murdicrj@esvax.es.dupont.com wrote: >>>> MKR, Thanks, I appreciated your tidbit on Theosophy and I think that Krishnamurti WAS ahead of the curve. I think it was/is admirable that a second but equal meeting was held but Krishnamurti would have had a difficult time in certain parts of our country. What I would like to know is the status of Hispanics and Afro-Americans in the rest of the Theosophical lodges and centers thorough-out the good old USA during those times, say, 1875 - 1960's. I haven't read nor have I heard the how Theosophical Society treated "Hispanics and others" during those early years. What did HPB, WQJ and HSO have to say about all this stuff? How did the "form a nucleus" impact on their behaviors? How could HPB and WQJ live during that period and not have ANY comments? Bob Murdic -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Apr 2 22:52:03 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA18561 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:44:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000402223602.0201b600@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 22:36:02 -0500 To: "Thoesophy Activists List" , From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theos-World Re: The Inner Life of Krishnamurti In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com It is a breath of fresh air to learn that you have published the book. It is all the more timely in the context of my experience with many "older" generation "theosophists" especially in the United States, who dismiss Krishnamurti as a "failure". Like all inspired works, the reality behind the written material is what is important. I felt all along, that Krishnamurti tried to emphasize the need for initiative and action, not following a particular cook book approach or blindly following a guru or a selfappointed righthand of a guru. Self-discovery in an unstructured non hierarchical environment may be the real answer to transformation. My hope is your book may make many of us to think for ourselves independently. By the way, since you own the copyright to the work, could you make it available on-line on Internet. It would permit immediate distribution around the world. After all, the number of people interested in Krishnamurti and theosophy are a miniscule in number. I am copying this to theos-talk, theos-l and listening-l. mkr At 11:26 AM 04/02/2000 EDT, ASANAT@aol.com wrote: Dear friends, My book The Inner Life of Krishnamurti was published recently by Quest Books. It contains information that I consider critical for understanding what theosophy is really likely to be (as opposed to what we have been told it is, in error, for much too long). For instance, we have been told that theosophy is a metaphysics, a conceptual system. Conceptual systems, however, all come from the analytical mind. And that is what needs to be transcended in order for theosophy to even begin to manifest itself in our lives. "The Mind is the Great Slayer of the Real. Let the Disciple Slay the Slayer." Surely that was not meant in jest? Theosophy is that which happens in theosophical (divine-like) states of awareness. It demands, in other words, that there be transformation. "Transformation" is but a word, which refers precisely to the same activity that all the ancient schools (and early theosophists) called "initiation." In the summer of 1884, the Master KH said to Sinnett, in ML # 63, concerning his book The Occult World, that "the results have proved quasi-disastrous! We had tried an experiment and sadly failed! Now we see that none but those who have passed at least their third initiation are able to write upon those subjects comprehensively." Let us recall that Sinnett was talking largely about bells ringing psychically, cups and saucers materializing, and brooches appearing under pillows. In other words, he was talking about relatively "simple" matters. Yet, according to KH, three initiations were required in order to do even that. And transformation is the one theme that runs through every single statement Krishnamurti ever made as part of his work. That cannot be said of any other "theosophical" author. If I am mistaken, and missed something here, please enlighten me. I mean it. But it does seem that K did precisely what the Master KH suggested for all theosophists: To focus on transformation rather than on conceptual schemes, the acceptance of which does not require transformation, and is therefore not theosophical in itself. I'll appreciate any comments. Aryel Sanat -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Apr 3 09:54:34 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id JAA02931 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:53:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <20000403144520.16407.qmail@web1606.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:45:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Caldwell Subject: Theos-World Dallas on "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles" To: basic@blavatsky.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dallas just wrote on BN basic: > If accuracy is desired the best way to secure this > is to go > direct to the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's > books and > articles. > > The BOOKSHOP at BLAVATSKY.NET can provide the > original texts > reproduced by photographic processes, so there is no > editing or > interpolation of opinions. The student is placed > directly in > relation with HPB and her writings. . . . > > After HPB died several of her students, in time, > claimed to be > able to "correct" her writings, and proceeded to do > this. Also, > most of her writings went "out of print" in several > societies, or > were amended and edited without any notes to advise > readers of > the changes made. . . . > > It is better if one makes up one's own mind as to > the value of > HPB's writings in their original form as compared > with edited > versions. Daniel replies: Dallas, I agree with your observations above. Unfortunately, both you and the Bookshop at BN promote an edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE and also MODERN PANARION which have both been edited and therefore contain hundreds of changes. I have pointed this out to you before and even given you dozens of examples of these changes. Many of these changes are totally unnecessary and unneeded. In other words, inquirers and students who use these two editions are NOT obtaining "HPB's writings in their original form." Dallas, when you specifically write: "After HPB died several of her students, in time,claimed to be able to 'correct' her writings, and proceeded to do this. Also, most of her writings . . . were amended and edited without any notes to advise readers of the changes made. . . .", you are PERFECTLY describing the two editions I mention above. These two works violate the standards that you yourself enunciate above. Please explain to all of us why you promote the two "edited" versions of HPB's works mentioned above while at the same time recommending others to read and study the "ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles"? What you personally and privately use in your own studies of HPB is your business, but when you write in a public forum what you have written above, I think inquirers and other students should know the true state of affairs. Hoping that you will state your position on this important issue which you have brought up again. Also hoping that you might start using and citing from the original editions of the material that is under discuss here in this email. A photographic facsimile of HPB's 1889 edition of the VOICE OF THE SILENCE is available from Kessinger Publishing. I'm hoping that the BN bookstore might start selling this edition instead of the edition that has hundreds of unacknowledged changes. Daniel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Apr 3 16:45:33 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id QAA25021 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:31:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "AAA-BN-BASIC" Subject: Theos-World RE: DTB = DC on "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles" Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:21:32 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c0bc84$0fde3660$920e97cf@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <20000403144520.16407.qmail@web1606.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Daniel: I think you make an error ? I did not promote any publisher. I said secure the ORIGINAL WRITINGS. Dallas PS If you are referring to the editions of the VOICE OF THE SILENCE and of MODERN PANARION done by the Theosophy Company in Los Angeles you have the explanations made quite some months ago last year. I summarize them again, in case they are useful to all concerned. The VOICE is a verbatim reproduction in reset type of the 1st edition of the VOICE that Mr. Judge printed and issued in New York, I believe it was in 1893. We have both noted this. It was not claimed to be a reproduction of HPB's original edition of 1889. A few changes in orthography and spelling in the FOOTNOTES were noted and explained; but there was nothing there that would impair the meaning of the original printed text as far as I could see. You may hold another opinion. The MODERN PANARION is a lithographic reproduction of the 1st Edition of the book as published in 1895. It was done in London at the H.P.B. Press. As noted by us both, the TPH in London, New York, and Adyar had apparently made some editorial changes from the original articles when it issued this book in 1895. I have no idea who authorized them at the H.P.B. Press in London as HPB was already four years dead by that date. I am sure that if the Theosophy Company had reproduced the book in reset type and true to the original articles, anyone might observe that it was not the reproduction of the ORIGINAL MODERN PANARION of 1895. It seems difficult to give full satisfaction both ways. With kind fraternal regards and best wishes to you as always, Dallas =========================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Daniel Caldwell Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 7:45 AM To: basic@blavatsky.net Subject: Theos-World Dallas on "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles" Dallas just wrote on BN basic: > If accuracy is desired the best way to secure this > is to go > direct to the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's > books and > articles. > > The BOOKSHOP at BLAVATSKY.NET can provide the > original texts > reproduced by photographic processes, so there is no > editing or > interpolation of opinions. The student is placed > directly in > relation with HPB and her writings. . . . > > After HPB died several of her students, in time, > claimed to be > able to "correct" her writings, and proceeded to do > this. Also, > most of her writings went "out of print" in several > societies, or > were amended and edited without any notes to advise > readers of > the changes made. . . . > > It is better if one makes up one's own mind as to > the value of > HPB's writings in their original form as compared > with edited > versions. Daniel replies: Dallas, I agree with your observations above. Unfortunately, both you and the Bookshop at BN promote an edition of THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE and also MODERN PANARION which have both been edited and therefore contain hundreds of changes. I have pointed this out to you before and even given you dozens of examples of these changes. Many of these changes are totally unnecessary and unneeded. In other words, inquirers and students who use these two editions are NOT obtaining "HPB's writings in their original form." Dallas, when you specifically write: "After HPB died several of her students, in time,claimed to be able to 'correct' her writings, and proceeded to do this. Also, most of her writings . . . were amended and edited without any notes to advise readers of the changes made. . . .", you are PERFECTLY describing the two editions I mention above. These two works violate the standards that you yourself enunciate above. Please explain to all of us why you promote the two "edited" versions of HPB's works mentioned above while at the same time recommending others to read and study the "ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles"? What you personally and privately use in your own studies of HPB is your business, but when you write in a public forum what you have written above, I think inquirers and other students should know the true state of affairs. Hoping that you will state your position on this important issue which you have brought up again. Also hoping that you might start using and citing from the original editions of the material that is under discuss here in this email. A photographic facsimile of HPB's 1889 edition of the VOICE OF THE SILENCE is available from Kessinger Publishing. I'm hoping that the BN bookstore might start selling this edition instead of the edition that has hundreds of unacknowledged changes. Daniel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Apr 3 21:41:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id VAA23451 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 21:19:03 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38E94FB0.DF33D245@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:13:04 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: DTB = DC on "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles" References: <000201c0bc84$0fde3660$920e97cf@nwc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dallas: Do you really want us to wait a year to read your messages (they are being marked 2001!) Bart "W. Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: > Daniel: > > I think you make an error ? -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Apr 3 22:11:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id VAA26499 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 2000 21:57:20 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <001301bf9de1$f0633860$a90ac5a9@azstarnet.com> From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" To: , "Theos-L" , , "AAA-BN-BASIC" References: <000201c0bc84$0fde3660$920e97cf@nwc.net> Subject: Theos-World Re: Dallas on "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles" Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:00:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dallas you wrote: > Daniel: > > I think you make an error ? > > I did not promote any publisher. I said secure the ORIGINAL > WRITINGS. Dallas, this is what you originally said in part: "If accuracy is desired the best way to secure this is to go direct to the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles." "The BOOKSHOP at BLAVATSKY.NET can provide the original texts reproduced by photographic processes, so there is no editing or interpolation of opinions. The student is placed directly in relation with HPB and her writings. . . ." What were you saying here? Surely you were suggesting if not firmly stating that one can secure "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles" at "The BOOKSHOP at BLAVATSKY.NET." Isn't that what you were trying to convey? Is this not "promoting" to some degree the HPB volumes sold at BN? MODERN PANARION and the edition of the VOICE sold by BN are definitely edited and contain hundreds of editorial changes. This is not just "my opinion", is it? It is a fact that anyone can determine if they have access to the ORIGINALS and then compare those to these two edited works sold by BN. You know this and yet you were promoting (indirectly) these two HPB titles at BN by your own words. You also wrote: "After HPB died several of her students, in time, claimed to be able to "correct" her writings, and proceeded to do this. Also, most of her writings . . . were amended and edited without any notes to advise readers of the changes made. . . ." You also know (or should know) that when you wrote this, that these two works under discussion (sold at BN) were "corrected," "amended and edited without any notes to advise readers of the changes made." Why didn't you mention these facts to everyone reading your email? How would inquirers, new students and even older (uninformed) students know that these two works sold by BN were edited with hundreds of changes? Your email certainly didn't inform them of these facts. Dallas, you ALSO certainly promote both MODERN PANARION and the TC edition of the VOICE by constantly quoting from these two volumes. You don't quote from the de Zirkoff edition of the SECRET DOCTRINE or G.R.S. Mead's edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, do you Why don't you? Is something wrong with these editions? Concerning the edition of the VOICE published by the Theosophy Company, you reply: "The VOICE is a verbatim reproduction in reset type of the 1st edition of the VOICE that Mr. Judge printed and issued in New York, I believe it was in 1893. We have both noted this. It was not claimed to be a reproduction of HPB's original edition of 1889. A few changes in orthography and spelling in the FOOTNOTES were noted and explained; but there was nothing there that would impair the meaning of the original printed text as far as I could see. You may hold another opinion." Oh, so it is just a matter of opinion. By this do you mean it is a very subjective matter? That there are no verifiable facts that any two or three or four sensible persons could agree on? Here are my observations of the Theosophy Company's edition of the VOICE. These are facts which anyone can verify if he or she will do the necessary work. 1. This edition is not an "un-edited" reproduction of the ORIGINAL edition as HPB published it in 1889. 2. In fact this edition has hundreds of changes in orthography, spelling, etc. when compared with HPB's ORIGINAL. 3. And these hundreds of changes are not just in the FOOTNOTES as you seem to believe or suggest but also are in the main text. 4. To use your own words, this edition was "amended and edited without any notes to advise readers of the changes made. . . ." This is not just my opinion but are facts which anyone can confirm if they desire to do so. Again you write: "A few changes in orthography and spelling in the FOOTNOTES were noted and explained; but there was nothing there that would impair the meaning of the original printed text as far as I could see. You may hold another opinion." It is not that clear to me what your mean by "a few changes". Putting that aside, I will simply state again that there are hundreds of changes and that is not some subjective opinion but a verifiable fact. You seem to suggest that you noted the "changes" between the ORIGINAL as approved by HPB and this later edition published when HPB was dead and gone and concluded "there was nothing there that would impair the meaning of the original printed text as far as I could see." Dallas, this is not THE ISSUE that we were originally discussing. Your original words were: "If accuracy is desired the best way to secure this is to go direct to the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles." You said "go DIRECT to the ORIGINAL." Why not heed your own advise and go DIRECT to the ORIGINAL of the "Voice" published in 1889? Why go through the laborious process of comparing hundreds of changes in the edited TC text with the original as published by HPB? This too me is pretty INDIRECT. Just go to the ORIGINAL as HPB published it. To do that one should avoid all edited versions INCLUDING THE THEOSOPHY COMPANY'S EDITION. One can do this by either obtaining a copy of the original 1889 edition or by purchasing a copy of the photofacsimile sold by Kessinger Publishing on the Internet at: http://www.kessinger-publishing.com/catalog/titles/ISBN_0-7661-0202-5.html My above comments on the TC edition of the Voice can be similarly applied to MODERN PANARION. If the student of HPB's writings wants to read "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text" of HPB's articles, AVOID "THE MODERN PANARION." The text in some of the articles in this 1895 volume is terribly multilated. I really hope that the Theosophy Company will pull these two multilated volumes out of circulation and reprint a photofacsimile of the 1889 edition of the VOICE and compile and publish an accurate and faithful transcription of HPB's articles covering the time period 1874-1884. If the Theosophy Company can publish photofacsimiles of the originals editions of ISIS, the SD and the KEY, WHY can't they produce one of the VOICE? This is a great puzzle to me. Daniel -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Apr 4 08:26:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA11253 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:23:13 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Barrett Culmback" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: Dallas on "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles" Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 06:14:54 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <001301bf9de1$f0633860$a90ac5a9@azstarnet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3825.400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Thank you for the link to Kessinger Publishing. "It is understandable that a child might fear the darkness; less so that an adult would fear the light." -Plato -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of D.Caldwell/M.Graye Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 8:01 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com; Theos-L; study@blavatsky.net; AAA-BN-BASIC Subject: Theos-World Re: Dallas on "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles" Dallas you wrote: > Daniel: > > I think you make an error ? > > I did not promote any publisher. I said secure the ORIGINAL > WRITINGS. Dallas, this is what you originally said in part: "If accuracy is desired the best way to secure this is to go direct to the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles." "The BOOKSHOP at BLAVATSKY.NET can provide the original texts reproduced by photographic processes, so there is no editing or interpolation of opinions. The student is placed directly in relation with HPB and her writings. . . ." What were you saying here? Surely you were suggesting if not firmly stating that one can secure "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles" at "The BOOKSHOP at BLAVATSKY.NET." Isn't that what you were trying to convey? Is this not "promoting" to some degree the HPB volumes sold at BN? MODERN PANARION and the edition of the VOICE sold by BN are definitely edited and contain hundreds of editorial changes. This is not just "my opinion", is it? It is a fact that anyone can determine if they have access to the ORIGINALS and then compare those to these two edited works sold by BN. You know this and yet you were promoting (indirectly) these two HPB titles at BN by your own words. You also wrote: "After HPB died several of her students, in time, claimed to be able to "correct" her writings, and proceeded to do this. Also, most of her writings . . . were amended and edited without any notes to advise readers of the changes made. . . ." You also know (or should know) that when you wrote this, that these two works under discussion (sold at BN) were "corrected," "amended and edited without any notes to advise readers of the changes made." Why didn't you mention these facts to everyone reading your email? How would inquirers, new students and even older (uninformed) students know that these two works sold by BN were edited with hundreds of changes? Your email certainly didn't inform them of these facts. Dallas, you ALSO certainly promote both MODERN PANARION and the TC edition of the VOICE by constantly quoting from these two volumes. You don't quote from the de Zirkoff edition of the SECRET DOCTRINE or G.R.S. Mead's edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, do you Why don't you? Is something wrong with these editions? Concerning the edition of the VOICE published by the Theosophy Company, you reply: "The VOICE is a verbatim reproduction in reset type of the 1st edition of the VOICE that Mr. Judge printed and issued in New York, I believe it was in 1893. We have both noted this. It was not claimed to be a reproduction of HPB's original edition of 1889. A few changes in orthography and spelling in the FOOTNOTES were noted and explained; but there was nothing there that would impair the meaning of the original printed text as far as I could see. You may hold another opinion." Oh, so it is just a matter of opinion. By this do you mean it is a very subjective matter? That there are no verifiable facts that any two or three or four sensible persons could agree on? Here are my observations of the Theosophy Company's edition of the VOICE. These are facts which anyone can verify if he or she will do the necessary work. 1. This edition is not an "un-edited" reproduction of the ORIGINAL edition as HPB published it in 1889. 2. In fact this edition has hundreds of changes in orthography, spelling, etc. when compared with HPB's ORIGINAL. 3. And these hundreds of changes are not just in the FOOTNOTES as you seem to believe or suggest but also are in the main text. 4. To use your own words, this edition was "amended and edited without any notes to advise readers of the changes made. . . ." This is not just my opinion but are facts which anyone can confirm if they desire to do so. Again you write: "A few changes in orthography and spelling in the FOOTNOTES were noted and explained; but there was nothing there that would impair the meaning of the original printed text as far as I could see. You may hold another opinion." It is not that clear to me what your mean by "a few changes". Putting that aside, I will simply state again that there are hundreds of changes and that is not some subjective opinion but a verifiable fact. You seem to suggest that you noted the "changes" between the ORIGINAL as approved by HPB and this later edition published when HPB was dead and gone and concluded "there was nothing there that would impair the meaning of the original printed text as far as I could see." Dallas, this is not THE ISSUE that we were originally discussing. Your original words were: "If accuracy is desired the best way to secure this is to go direct to the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles." You said "go DIRECT to the ORIGINAL." Why not heed your own advise and go DIRECT to the ORIGINAL of the "Voice" published in 1889? Why go through the laborious process of comparing hundreds of changes in the edited TC text with the original as published by HPB? This too me is pretty INDIRECT. Just go to the ORIGINAL as HPB published it. To do that one should avoid all edited versions INCLUDING THE THEOSOPHY COMPANY'S EDITION. One can do this by either obtaining a copy of the original 1889 edition or by purchasing a copy of the photofacsimile sold by Kessinger Publishing on the Internet at: http://www.kessinger-publishing.com/catalog/titles/ISBN_0-7661-0202-5.html My above comments on the TC edition of the Voice can be similarly applied to MODERN PANARION. If the student of HPB's writings wants to read "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text" of HPB's articles, AVOID "THE MODERN PANARION." The text in some of the articles in this 1895 volume is terribly multilated. I really hope that the Theosophy Company will pull these two multilated volumes out of circulation and reprint a photofacsimile of the 1889 edition of the VOICE and compile and publish an accurate and faithful transcription of HPB's articles covering the time period 1874-1884. If the Theosophy Company can publish photofacsimiles of the originals editions of ISIS, the SD and the KEY, WHY can't they produce one of the VOICE? This is a great puzzle to me. Daniel -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Apr 4 18:23:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA27464 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:17:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000401bf9e8b$2f980d40$629eb2d1@denniski> From: "Dennis Kier" To: References: <3.0.3.32.20000402223602.0201b600@mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: The Inner Life of Krishnamurti Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:54:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > > At 11:26 AM 04/02/2000 EDT, ASANAT@aol.com wrote: > Dear friends, > > My book The Inner Life of Krishnamurti was published recently by Quest Books. Thanks for that research. I enjoyed reading it, and feel that it is an important addition to the Krishnamurti related, and Theosophy related material. > In the summer of 1884, the Master KH said to Sinnett, in ML # 63, concerning > his book The Occult World, that "the results have proved quasi-disastrous! > We had tried an experiment and sadly failed! Now we see that none but those > who have passed at least their third initiation are able to write upon those > subjects comprehensively." I guess that is why they had Djual Kuhl write the next series of comments on the Secret Doctrine through Alice A. Bailey. They are some of my favorite reading. > Let us recall that Sinnett was talking largely about bells ringing > psychically, cups and saucers materializing, and brooches appearing under > pillows. In other words, he was talking about relatively "simple" matters. That is the problem with phenomena. It takes the spotlight, attracts attention, and many people forget to look behind the "show-business", to study the Real World laws and regulations that are behind it. > Yet, according to KH, three initiations were required in order to do even > that. And transformation is the one theme that runs through every single > statement Krishnamurti ever made as part of his work. That cannot be said of any other "theosophical" author. > > If I am mistaken, and missed something here, please enlighten me. I mean it. > But it does seem that K did precisely what the Master KH suggested for all > theosophists: To focus on transformation rather than on conceptual schemes, > the acceptance of which does not require transformation, and is therefore not > theosophical in itself. I just finished reading the book. It confirms many of my observations in reading the published biographies, and adds much new that I hadn't seen. I would recommend the book (for what that is worth). Dennis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Apr 4 19:34:46 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id TAA02637 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:21:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38EAA2CE.54D4@wworld.com> Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 19:19:59 -0700 From: scott holloman X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Dallas on "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's books and articles" References: <000201c0bc84$0fde3660$920e97cf@nwc.net> <001301bf9de1$f0633860$a90ac5a9@azstarnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com D.Caldwell/M.Graye wrote: > > Dallas you wrote: > > > Daniel: > > > > I think you make an error ? > > > > I did not promote any publisher. I said secure the ORIGINAL > > WRITINGS. > > Dallas, this is what you originally said in part: > > "If accuracy is desired the best way to secure this is to go > direct to the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's > books and articles." > > "The BOOKSHOP at BLAVATSKY.NET can provide the > original texts reproduced by photographic processes, so there is no > editing or interpolation of opinions. The student is placed > directly in relation with HPB and her writings. . . ." > > What were you saying here? Surely you were suggesting if not firmly > stating that one can secure "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's > books and articles" at "The BOOKSHOP at BLAVATSKY.NET." > Isn't that what you were trying to convey? Is this not "promoting" to > some degree the HPB volumes sold at BN? > > MODERN PANARION and the edition of the VOICE sold > by BN are definitely edited and contain hundreds of editorial changes. > This is not just "my opinion", is it? It is a fact that anyone can > determine if they have access to the ORIGINALS and then > compare those to these two edited works sold by BN. > > You know this and yet you were promoting (indirectly) these two HPB > titles at BN by your own words. > > You also wrote: > > "After HPB died several of her students, in time, claimed to be > able to "correct" her writings, and proceeded to do this. Also, > most of her writings . . . were amended and edited without any > notes to advise readers of the changes made. . . ." > > You also know (or should know) that when you wrote this, > that these two works under discussion (sold at BN) were > "corrected," "amended and edited without any notes to advise > readers of the changes made." Why didn't you mention these > facts to everyone reading your email? > > How would inquirers, new students and even older (uninformed) > students know that these two works sold by BN were edited with > hundreds of changes? Your email certainly didn't inform them of these > facts. > > Dallas, you ALSO certainly promote both MODERN PANARION and > the TC edition of the VOICE by constantly quoting from these two > volumes. > > You don't quote from the de Zirkoff edition of the SECRET DOCTRINE or > G.R.S. Mead's edition of THE SECRET DOCTRINE, do you Why don't you? > Is something wrong with these editions? > > Concerning the edition of the VOICE published by the Theosophy > Company, you reply: > > "The VOICE is a verbatim reproduction in reset type of the 1st > edition of the VOICE that Mr. Judge printed and issued in New > York, I believe it was in 1893. We have both noted this. It was > not claimed to be a reproduction of HPB's original edition of > 1889. A few changes in orthography and spelling in the FOOTNOTES > were noted and explained; but there was nothing there that would > impair the meaning of the original printed text as far as I could > see. You may hold another opinion." > > Oh, so it is just a matter of opinion. By this do you mean it is a > very subjective matter? That there are no verifiable facts that > any two or three or four sensible persons could agree on? > > Here are my observations of the Theosophy Company's edition > of the VOICE. These are facts which anyone can verify if he or > she will do the necessary work. > > 1. This edition is not an "un-edited" reproduction of the ORIGINAL edition > as > HPB published it in 1889. > > 2. In fact this edition has hundreds of changes in orthography, spelling, > etc. when compared with HPB's ORIGINAL. > > 3. And these hundreds of changes are not just in the FOOTNOTES as you > seem to believe or suggest but also are in the main text. > > 4. To use your own words, this edition was "amended and edited without > any notes to advise readers of the changes made. . . ." > > This is not just my opinion but are facts which anyone can confirm if they > desire to do so. > > Again you write: > > "A few changes in orthography and spelling in the FOOTNOTES > were noted and explained; but there was nothing there that would > impair the meaning of the original printed text as far as I could > see. You may hold another opinion." > > It is not that clear to me what your mean by "a few changes". > Putting that aside, I will simply state again that there are > hundreds of changes and that is not some subjective opinion > but a verifiable fact. > > You seem to suggest that you noted the "changes" between the > ORIGINAL as approved by HPB and this later edition published > when HPB was dead and gone and concluded "there was nothing there that > would impair the meaning of the original printed text as far as I > could see." Dallas, this is not THE ISSUE that we were originally > discussing. > > Your original words were: > > "If accuracy is desired the best way to secure this is to go > direct to the ORIGINAL (un-edited) text of HPB's > books and articles." > > You said "go DIRECT to the ORIGINAL." > > Why not heed your own advise and go DIRECT to the ORIGINAL > of the "Voice" published in 1889? Why go through the laborious > process of comparing hundreds of changes in the edited TC text with the > original > as published by HPB? This too me is pretty INDIRECT. > > Just go to the ORIGINAL as HPB published it. To do that one should > avoid all edited versions INCLUDING THE THEOSOPHY COMPANY'S > EDITION. One can do this by either obtaining a copy of the original 1889 > edition > or by purchasing a copy of the photofacsimile sold by Kessinger Publishing > on the Internet at: > http://www.kessinger-publishing.com/catalog/titles/ISBN_0-7661-0202-5.html > > My above comments on the TC edition of the Voice can be similarly > applied to MODERN PANARION. > > If the student of HPB's writings wants to read "the ORIGINAL (un-edited) > text" > of HPB's articles, AVOID "THE MODERN PANARION." The text > in some of the articles in this 1895 volume is terribly multilated. > > I really hope that the Theosophy Company will pull these two multilated > volumes > out of circulation and reprint a photofacsimile of the 1889 edition of the > VOICE > and compile and publish an accurate and faithful transcription of HPB's > articles covering > the time period 1874-1884. If the Theosophy Company can publish > photofacsimiles > of the originals editions of ISIS, the SD and the KEY, WHY can't they > produce one of the VOICE? > This is a great puzzle to me. > > Daniel > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. Forgive me for I'am a neophyte but aren't ALL texts suffering from a form of mutilation and interpretation?I ask sincerely if H.P.B.'s recordings are mean't as aguide at least to the uninitiate like me? Thanks Scott -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Apr 6 00:00:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id XAA30093 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:29:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000405232205.00696728@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:22:05 -0500 To: theos-l@list.vnet.net, theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theos-World Inner Life of Krishnamurti Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Here are some feedback from some of those who have read the book. I have excerpted from the amazon and barnes&nobles sites. Hope some might find it interesting. mkr ================= The Inner Life of Krishnamurti : Private Passion and Perennial Wisdom by Aryel Sanat List Price: $16.95 ========== Here is a comment from amazon.com customer A reader from San Felipe, CA February 21, 2000 This book is not about the title but more about attempting to validate claims made by the Theosophical Society and the subject of the book. The author says his book takes no viewpoint on these matters and he invites "positive" criticism of his work, yet he cuts short such evaluation by saying all of his remarks are "facts." These facts actually, in every case, are quotes--the opinions of various, mostly Theosophical sources--since how, indeed, can one PROVE that the Theosophical Society has been tapped to save the world by Himalayan "masters" known only to them or that Krishnamurti was the "second coming of Christ" or the Buddha Maitreya? These contentions are the focal points of the book. The many inferences the author otherwise makes between what Krishnamurti said at various times in his life that were contradictory and "what is" remain debatable. As Krishnamurti himself spoke of his source of inspiration as "the Other," we must assume that Krishnamurti the man existed separately as an individual and was prone to the occasional contradictions and foibles of individuals. In the last chapter, the author closes with a further note of confusion, stating that the entire book "may be transcended." Another reader from Albuquerqui, NM -- February 19, 2000 The title of this book indicates that Krishnamurti had an "outer" and an "inner" life, the latter to be reveal by the author. However, it was my impression that this book is merely restatement of the old agendas of the Theosophical Society in Krishnamurti packaging, to wit: the Theosophical Society is the crucible of all esoteric knowledge; the T.S. was annointed by "Masters" unrecognized by any other faith but believed by them to rule the affairs of the world and to "save" said world; Krishnamurti was the second coming of Christ (called the Buddha Maitreya by the T.S.) appointed and trained by the Masters as the only means of world salvation in this age. Additionally, he was the sole beneficiary of the highest initiation process ever performed on a human. The author invites "positive" criticism of his ideas, but cautions that since his research is based in "fact" only, that he has no viewpoint to debate. To those who find elitist theologies appealing, this book will be intriguing. ================== A reader from Barnes & Noble: February 22, 2000, Book's agenda is clouded Was Krishnamurti always 'channelling' his inspirational ideas at the highest level or did he sometimes act like a human being 'off stage' and get caught up in certain illusions? Aryel Sanat (or Miguel Sanabria, as he also calls himself on the jacket) goes to unnecessary lengths to try to reconcile Krishnamurti's sometimes contradictory words and behavior. Most great gurus have exhibited a dichotomy but Sanat, a lecturer at Theosophical groups, seems to want people to regard Krishnamurti and the Theosophical Society as a 'cut above' other teachers and societies. His book sets out to prove that Krishnamurti was none other than Christ reborn and the Theosophical Society (like the B'hais, it might be said) the vehicle for world salvation. The proof the author feels he must offer is self-referencing quotes among Theosophists, former Theosophists, one nameless Buddhist monk, and Krishnamurti himself. It's difficult to take this serious subject seriously when the author himself states in his last chapter that we might just as well 'transcend' everything he has tried to say. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Apr 6 00:32:55 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id AAA07580 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:18:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000406170958.01c54e50@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: john/pop.actrix.co.nz@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:15:58 +1200 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: John Vorstermans Subject: Re: Theos-World Inner Life of Krishnamurti In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000405232205.00696728@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com At 23:22 5/04/00 -0500, you wrote: >Here are some feedback from some of those who have read the book. I have >excerpted from the amazon and barnes&nobles sites. > >Hope some might find it interesting. It is certainly interesting to see strong opinion on the book and I have no doubt at all that it will be seen as controversial to many people, as K himself was. "The truth however is in the pudding". We need to ponder carefully on what K has said (and this is often deeper than most people realize), and then reflect on what the picture is that the Inner Life puts forth. It is certainly a very interesting book to read. Wither it is true or not is for each individual to work out for themselves. John -- John Vorstermans || In the confrontation between the stream and the Technical Manager || rock, The stream always wins - not through Actrix Networks || strength but through perseverance. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Apr 6 01:33:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id BAA12621 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:16:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAnU7fxUo2Jl96rgS+cnUKb+Tde0MCFGIZKTqDUVzc7GRYLewik16emlAQ From: gfdrucker@webtv.net (Gerry Druckerman) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:09:02 -0700 (PDT) To: RobinScorpio@webtv.net, countrigal@mindspring.com, jherb13197@aol.com, AlexLaural@yahoo.com, njaraujo@earthlink.net, rzchung@earthlink.net, theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Fwd: Theos-World Inner Life of Krishnamurti Message-ID: <131-38EC29FE-3290@storefull-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary=WebTV-Mail-15853-1690 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com --WebTV-Mail-15853-1690 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Gerry --WebTV-Mail-15853-1690 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-101-9.iap.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.43) by storefull-154.iap.bryant.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 21:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from pippin.imagiware.com (pippin.imagiware.com [205.254.196.9]) by mailsorter-101-9.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8-wtv-f/ms.dwm.v7+dul2) with ESMTP id VAA13929; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 21:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id XAA30093 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:29:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000405232205.00696728@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:22:05 -0500 To: theos-l@list.vnet.net, theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Theos-World Inner Life of Krishnamurti Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Here are some feedback from some of those who have read the book. I have excerpted from the amazon and barnes&nobles sites. Hope some might find it interesting. mkr ================= The Inner Life of Krishnamurti : Private Passion and Perennial Wisdom by Aryel Sanat List Price: $16.95 ========== Here is a comment from amazon.com customer A reader from San Felipe, CA February 21, 2000 This book is not about the title but more about attempting to validate claims made by the Theosophical Society and the subject of the book. The author says his book takes no viewpoint on these matters and he invites "positive" criticism of his work, yet he cuts short such evaluation by saying all of his remarks are "facts." These facts actually, in every case, are quotes--the opinions of various, mostly Theosophical sources--since how, indeed, can one PROVE that the Theosophical Society has been tapped to save the world by Himalayan "masters" known only to them or that Krishnamurti was the "second coming of Christ" or the Buddha Maitreya? These contentions are the focal points of the book. The many inferences the author otherwise makes between what Krishnamurti said at various times in his life that were contradictory and "what is" remain debatable. As Krishnamurti himself spoke of his source of inspiration as "the Other," we must assume that Krishnamurti the man existed separately as an individual and was prone to the occasional contradictions and foibles of individuals. In the last chapter, the author closes with a further note of confusion, stating that the entire book "may be transcended." Another reader from Albuquerqui, NM -- February 19, 2000 The title of this book indicates that Krishnamurti had an "outer" and an "inner" life, the latter to be reveal by the author. However, it was my impression that this book is merely restatement of the old agendas of the Theosophical Society in Krishnamurti packaging, to wit: the Theosophical Society is the crucible of all esoteric knowledge; the T.S. was annointed by "Masters" unrecognized by any other faith but believed by them to rule the affairs of the world and to "save" said world; Krishnamurti was the second coming of Christ (called the Buddha Maitreya by the T.S.) appointed and trained by the Masters as the only means of world salvation in this age. Additionally, he was the sole beneficiary of the highest initiation process ever performed on a human. The author invites "positive" criticism of his ideas, but cautions that since his research is based in "fact" only, that he has no viewpoint to debate. To those who find elitist theologies appealing, this book will be intriguing. ================== A reader from Barnes & Noble: February 22, 2000, Book's agenda is clouded Was Krishnamurti always 'channelling' his inspirational ideas at the highest level or did he sometimes act like a human being 'off stage' and get caught up in certain illusions? Aryel Sanat (or Miguel Sanabria, as he also calls himself on the jacket) goes to unnecessary lengths to try to reconcile Krishnamurti's sometimes contradictory words and behavior. Most great gurus have exhibited a dichotomy but Sanat, a lecturer at Theosophical groups, seems to want people to regard Krishnamurti and the Theosophical Society as a 'cut above' other teachers and societies. His book sets out to prove that Krishnamurti was none other than Christ reborn and the Theosophical Society (like the B'hais, it might be said) the vehicle for world salvation. The proof the author feels he must offer is self-referencing quotes among Theosophists, former Theosophists, one nameless Buddhist monk, and Krishnamurti himself. It's difficult to take this serious subject seriously when the author himself states in his last chapter that we might just as well 'transcend' everything he has tried to say. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. --WebTV-Mail-15853-1690-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Apr 6 10:21:39 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id KAA24261 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:01:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000406095318.02587ea0@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 09:53:18 -0500 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Inner Life of Krishnamurti In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000406170958.01c54e50@127.0.0.1> References: <3.0.3.32.20000405232205.00696728@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com You are on target. What ever is K's inner life, one can never know. In the final analysis, it is "our" life which matters. If what he has said and written helps to better understand ourselves and our relationship with the world, then that is what is going to be very important. mkr At 05:15 PM 04/06/2000 +1200, you wrote: >At 23:22 5/04/00 -0500, you wrote: >>Here are some feedback from some of those who have read the book. I have >>excerpted from the amazon and barnes&nobles sites. >> >>Hope some might find it interesting. > >It is certainly interesting to see strong opinion on the book and I have no >doubt at all that it will be seen as controversial to many people, as K >himself was. "The truth however is in the pudding". We need to ponder >carefully on what K has said (and this is often deeper than most people >realize), and then reflect on what the picture is that the Inner Life puts >forth. > >It is certainly a very interesting book to read. Wither it is true or not >is for each individual to work out for themselves. > >John -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Apr 8 05:19:43 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id EAA10155 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 04:58:43 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Inner Life of Krishnamurti Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 02:48:27 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0c011$0ff40040$197bc4d0@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <131-38EC29FE-3290@storefull-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Gerry: About Krishnamurti. He was a person much abused especially by Leadbeater. He had the strength to get out of the situation and realizing that he had been given by L and AB a "position" that was untrue (in the eyes of the TS members) he had the honesty to reject it. He then spent the rest of his life trying to preach openness, and truth OUTSIDE the TS -- which by then had veered way off the course and far away from true THEOSOPHY. Many old members of the TS and their children respect K's honesty and evident integrity. Unfortunately he did not lend his energies to spreading THEOSOPHY. Mr Wadia aid once to me that K. had been PREVENTED from actually studying HPB's THEOSOPHY by L. He is to be honored for his good work but he is not in any way a reincarnation of HPB or of anything except his own honest self. Dallas -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Gerry Druckerman Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:09 PM To: RobinScorpio@webtv.net; countrigal@mindspring.com; jherb13197@aol.com; AlexLaural@yahoo.com; njaraujo@earthlink.net; rzchung@earthlink.net; theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Fwd: Theos-World Inner Life of Krishnamurti Gerry -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Apr 8 17:24:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA30121 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:13:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <004701bfa1a2$68baa6e0$2a09c5a9@azstarnet.com> From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" To: "Caldwell, Daniel H." Subject: Theos-World Unpublished, Rare Material newly added to BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES ONLINE Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:35:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES ONLINE http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/index.htm The following three items have been added today to the archives. Some may find the "never before published" letters of HPB of great interest. *** "Two Letters from H.P. Blavatsky to Dr. Wilhelm Hübbe-Schleiden." [These letters (written in early January, 1886) have never before been published. They deal with HPB's receipt of the "Hodgson Report" and her answers to some of Hodgson's charges.] *** "Book Review of Vernon Harrison's H.P. Blavatsky and the SPR" by Leslie Price. [Reprinted from the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research (London), Volume 63, January 1999, pp. 125-127.] *** "The Founding of the Theosophical Society" by Walter A. Carrithers, Jr. [First published as the "Epilogue" to the 1975 abridged reprint of H.S. Olcott's 1875 "Inaugural Address." This article was originally published under Mr. Carrither's pseudonym Adlai E. Waterman. This 2000 web edition is published by the Blavatsky Foundation.] Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES ONLINE http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/index.htm -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Apr 8 17:26:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id RAA29804 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:10:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <003401bfa1a7$620b95c0$fa390e26@iximd.com> From: "Gerald Schueler" To: References: <200004081400.JAA22833@pippin.imagiware.com> Subject: Theos-World Re: theos-talk-digest V1 #1058 Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:11:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Dear Gerry: > > About Krishnamurti. He was a person much abused especially by > Leadbeater. > In what way was he abused? > He had the strength to get out of the situation and realizing > that he had been given by L and AB a "position" that was untrue > (in the eyes of the TS members) he had the honesty to reject it. Yes. > He then spent the rest of his life trying to preach openness, and > truth OUTSIDE the TS -- which by then had veered way off the > course and far away from true THEOSOPHY. Many old members of the > TS and their children respect K's honesty and evident integrity. > I agree with you here about K. But in what way, exactly, do you think the TS "had veered way off the course and far away from true THEOSOPHY?" My impression is that after the K incident, the TS started a "back to Blavatsky" movement to get back on track. > Unfortunately he did not lend his energies to spreading > THEOSOPHY. Mr Wadia aid once to me that K. had been PREVENTED > from actually studying HPB's THEOSOPHY by L. > He was, I think, beyond any organization including Theosophy. His "pathless land" approach is more Zen than Theosophical. > He is to be honored for his good work but he is not in any way a > reincarnation of HPB or of anything except his own honest self. > > Dallas I certainly agree with you here, Dallas. Jerry S. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Apr 11 02:15:45 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id CAA21110 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 02:10:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Free Tibet" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Re: theos-talk-digest V1 #1058 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:36:41 +0930 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <003401bfa1a7$620b95c0$fa390e26@iximd.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com > [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Gerald Schueler > Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2000 7:41 AM > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Theos-World Re: theos-talk-digest V1 #1058 > > > > Dear Gerry: > > > > About Krishnamurti. He was a person much abused especially by > > Leadbeater. > > > > In what way was he abused? > Its been a couple of days now. Any response? I think it must be in reference to Leadbetters lessons on Self-gratification. nos -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Apr 11 11:49:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id LAA09652 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:32:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38F2FA1F.A27A849@bmu.com.pe> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 05:10:41 -0500 From: ernesto X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Leadbeater's problem References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server: VPOP3 V1.3.0b - Registered to: Estudio Benitez,Mercado y Ugaz Abogados Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear friends: We have been talking about Leadbeater recently. Leadbeater said he was a clairvoyant. He said he could see our fisical, astral, and the two kind of mental bodies. He also said he knew the Adepts. In his book about tha Masters and the Path, he said he saw the Maitreya, before his coming to the World. But, if he really had all of these experiences and capabilities, I don't understand why he made a great mistake about Krishnamurti's identity. He should have known Krishnamurti was not Master Maitreya. And it is also surprising that, with his "great clairvoyance", he was in such a mistake for much more than one simple day. So, was he really clairvoyant? Doesn't it seem that he was alucinating or may be lying?. David. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Apr 11 13:00:18 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id MAA20360 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:48:31 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000411123951.026cfa70@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:39:51 -0500 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Leadbeater's problem In-Reply-To: <38F2FA1F.A27A849@bmu.com.pe> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com According to K, Leadbeater was temporarily clairvoyant. However in Adyar TS circles he was the undisputed contact person with Adepts and all his claims were accepted by most as 100% correct. No one will ever know the full truth or falsity. In K's case, it looks like the way he and others expected him to turn out to be was wrong. They expected that there would be rerun of the way Lord Maitreya appeared 2000 years ago (apostles, rituals, church etc.) If some one predicted 2000 years ago that the Lord is going to appear the same way the Hindu God Krishna appeared, they would have been wrong. As for K, whether he was a success or failure can be judged only a century from now. For now what seems to be important is if his message has any impact on human beings and help them change, that is critical. Considering the large number of people who are reading his books and watching his videos, apparently many around the world are interested in the topics he discussed for over 60 years. My .02 mkr At 05:10 AM 04/11/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >Dear friends: > >We have been talking about Leadbeater recently. > >Leadbeater said he was a clairvoyant. He said he could see our fisical, >astral, and the two kind of mental bodies. He also said he knew the >Adepts. In his book about tha Masters and the Path, he said he saw the >Maitreya, before his coming to the World. > >But, if he really had all of these experiences and capabilities, I don't >understand why he made a great mistake about Krishnamurti's identity. He >should have known Krishnamurti was not Master Maitreya. And it is also >surprising that, with his "great clairvoyance", he was in such a mistake >for much more than one simple day. > >So, was he really clairvoyant? Doesn't it seem that he was alucinating >or may be lying?. > >David. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Apr 11 22:18:08 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA02863 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 22:13:14 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38F490B6.F0BC9F60@lainet.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:05:34 -0700 From: Martin Leiderman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Leadbeater's problem References: <3.0.3.32.20000411123951.026cfa70@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Ramadoss, Would you clarify the point brought up by someone (David) when he wrote: "He >should have known Krishnamurti was not Master Maitreya. I never heard that. What I was told is the K. was going to be the "vehicle" for the World Teacher. Something like Jesus and the Christ. Please tell us if you know about it. They are very different matter. I have no doubt CWL was clairvoyant. I challenge anyone to select one child in India to later become a great philosopher to millions; one whose books (from his talks, etc) and memories has lifted their souls to a true understanding of the mental process and life realities. Martin M K Ramadoss wrote: > According to K, Leadbeater was temporarily clairvoyant. > > However in Adyar TS circles he was the undisputed contact person with > Adepts and all his claims were accepted by most as 100% correct. No one > will ever know the full truth or falsity. > > mkr Original quote below: > > >Leadbeater said he was a clairvoyant. ... > > > >But, if he really had all of these experiences and capabilities, I don't > >understand why he made a great mistake about Krishnamurti's identity. He > >should have known Krishnamurti was not Master Maitreya. ... > > > >So, was he really clairvoyant? Doesn't it seem that he was alucinating > >or may be lying?. > > > >David. > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Tue Apr 11 23:26:44 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id XAA14331 for theos-talk-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:17:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20000411231024.01173170@mail.eden.com> X-Sender: ramadoss@mail.eden.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 23:10:24 -0500 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com From: M K Ramadoss Subject: Re: Theos-World Leadbeater's problem In-Reply-To: <38F490B6.F0BC9F60@lainet.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20000411123951.026cfa70@mail.eden.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Martin: At 08:05 AM 4/12/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Dear Ramadoss, > >Would you clarify the point brought up by someone (David) when he wrote: "He >>should have known Krishnamurti was not Master Maitreya. > >I never heard that. What I was told is the K. was going to be the "vehicle" >for the World Teacher. Something like Jesus and the Christ. >Please tell us if you know about it. They are very different matter. You are right. He was supposed to be vehicle to be used by the World Teacher. >I have no doubt CWL was clairvoyant. >I challenge anyone to select one child in India to later become a great >philosopher to millions; one whose books (from his talks, etc) and memories >has lifted their souls to a true understanding of the mental process and life >realities. Identifying K was a very remarkable find of CWL and all the credit goes to him. One time K was questioned about his views on CWL's clairvoyance. K's comment was that CWL was temporarily clairvoyant. Since he had known CWL well, I put some credence on K's statement. Yes many got introduced to Theosophy due to CWL's works and the credit goes to him. mkr -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Apr 12 06:21:56 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id GAA22838 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:18:27 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38F45A2B.5CA2361F@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:12:43 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Leadbeater's problem References: <3.0.3.32.20000411123951.026cfa70@mail.eden.com> <3.0.3.32.20000411231024.01173170@mail.eden.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com My take on clairvoyance in general, if it even exists: There is an old Jewish story about a great healer who came to a town. The local rabbi was unimpressed by the healer's reputation, however. The healer declared that he would prove his healing powers. On the day of the presentation, the healer had the usual line of sick and disabled people wishing for aid. The first man who came up said, "I have been blind since birth. Can you make me see?" The healer laid his hands on the blind man's eyes, prayed to God to heal the man, and, sure enough, the man exclaimed, "I can see! I can see!" The rabbi, skeptical, held up a red handkerchief, and asked the man, "If you can see, tell me what color this handkerchief is." The man said, "It is red!" The audience was even more impressed, but the rabbi was not. "If you were born blind," asked the rabbi, "then how could you possibly know which color is which?" Based on the most reliable stories of clairvoyance and astral projection, it seems clear that what is being sensed is not vision, but another sense being interpreted as vision. It becomes sort of the opposite of Quixotism, what might be termed Panzaism; instead of seeing giants while looking at windmills, when one looks at giants, one sees windmills. What one sees is heavily flavored by one's prejudices. When I read theosophical writings, I tend to look for two things, first. They are, what are the prejudices (using the formal rather than colloquial meaning of the word) of the author, and how hard does the author try to keep those prejudices from influencing their work. To give one example, Blavatsky clearly has an anti-Semitism that probably came from her upbringing and attitudes of the time. It pops up every now and then in her work (I don't have the books in front of me, but two examples I remember are in the early part of KEY TO THEOSOPHY and in her fictional AN ENCHANTED LIFE. Off tangent: a LOT of her attitudes are far more apparent in her fiction than in the bulk of her writings), but far more often she makes statements which contradict the others. Leadbeater, on the other hand, tends to make little, if any effort to fight his own prejudices in his writings (for example, anything that might contradict his Christian beliefs he incorporates into them, which is what, in my opinion, caused the whole Maitreya obsession in the first place, a Theosophical concept that, with my own prejudice, I disincorporate from my beliefs). Yet, there are many Theosophists who believe that what Leadbeater wrote was quite literally true. One of my own prejudices is that modern science is taking us closer to Truth (although there are definite limits in what can be discovered using modern techniques, and even more limits in the human beings in the sciences), and if there are multiple interpretations of Theosophical literature, one of which agrees with modern scientific thought, then that is the interpretation one should use a a working one until new information comes that contradicts it. Therefore, when it was discovered by DNA testing that Neanderthal man was not an anscestor of modern humanity, but a failed cousin, a fact which greatly increased the weight of the theory that humanity originally came out of Africa and spread to the rest of the world from there, I felt that this fit in well with Leadbeater's concept that humanity originated in one place, then crossed a desert to spread into the rest of the world. That the desert was the Sahara rather than the Gobi was, to me, an unimportant detail. Yet many old-time Theosophists treated this idea as blasphemy. Bart Lidofsky M K Ramadoss wrote: > Dear Martin: > > At 08:05 AM 4/12/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >Dear Ramadoss, > > > >Would you clarify the point brought up by someone (David) when he wrote: "He > >>should have known Krishnamurti was not Master Maitreya. > > > >I never heard that. What I was told is the K. was going to be the "vehicle" > >for the World Teacher. Something like Jesus and the Christ. > >Please tell us if you know about it. They are very different matter. > > You are right. He was supposed to be vehicle to be used by the World Teacher. > > >I have no doubt CWL was clairvoyant. > >I challenge anyone to select one child in India to later become a great > >philosopher to millions; one whose books (from his talks, etc) and memories > >has lifted their souls to a true understanding of the mental process and life > >realities. > > Identifying K was a very remarkable find of CWL and all the credit goes to > him. > > One time K was questioned about his views on CWL's clairvoyance. > > K's comment was that CWL was temporarily clairvoyant. Since he had known > CWL well, I put some credence on K's statement. > > Yes many got introduced to Theosophy due to CWL's works and the credit goes > to him. > > mkr > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Apr 12 06:38:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id GAA23299 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:24:39 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38F45B9C.79CEBBAF@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:18:52 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Leadbeater's problem References: <3.0.3.32.20000411123951.026cfa70@mail.eden.com> <38F490B6.F0BC9F60@lainet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Martin Leiderman wrote: > I never heard that. What I was told is the K. was going to be the "vehicle" > for the World Teacher. Something like Jesus and the Christ. > Please tell us if you know about it. They are very different matter. According to Dora Kunz, Krishnamurti (to me, "the K." will always be Murray) was the "vehicle" for the World Teacher, but rejected it. This fits in well with the Hasidic belief that, in every generation, there is a person worthy of becoming the Messiah, but the Messiah will only appear when the world (and, one assumes, the vehicle) is ready. Bart Lidofsky -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Apr 12 09:03:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA07546 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:54:58 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <001301bfa486$c39bbe00$1b855ad1@libidium> From: "libidia" To: References: <3.0.3.32.20000411123951.026cfa70@mail.eden.com> <3.0.3.32.20000411231024.01173170@mail.eden.com> <38F45A2B.5CA2361F@sprynet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Leadbeater's problem Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:50:44 -0400 Organization: Libidium Creations Incorporated. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > this handkerchief is." The man said, "It is red!" The audience was even more > impressed, but the rabbi was not. "If you were born blind," asked the rabbi, "then > how could you possibly know which color is which?" Interesting story. Many things come to mind.... Being in the world but not of it. Recognizing the distinctions between cultural experience, our common human being experience, our variations of openess or releasing of supra/para normal experiences, and the element of what we simply 'know' because we are holograms of the one 'knower'. > Based on the most reliable stories of clairvoyance and astral projection, it > seems clear that what is being sensed is not vision, but another sense being > interpreted as vision. It becomes sort of the opposite of Quixotism, what might be > termed Panzaism; instead of seeing giants while looking at windmills, when one > looks at giants, one sees windmills. Well, that just seems like a game of duality defining. What in reality is being seen is what I wonder. 'Seen' meaning a representation in language format of a feeling of a vibration. What one sees is heavily flavored by one's > prejudices. When I read theosophical writings, I tend to look for two things, > first. They are, what are the prejudices (using the formal rather than colloquial > meaning of the word) of the author, and how hard does the author try to keep those > prejudices from influencing their work. Interesting..... You or I can look, but how can we 'see' the prejudices of another unless we have none ourselves? Isn't it wiser to simply 'look' as an experience, but to concentrate on 'knowing' oneself and one's own prejudices. The result hopefully being that as one knows oneself, one knows all others....when prejudice no longer exists, and judgement as an experience is eliminated? I think that 'a prejudice' is a simple way of experiencing 'non understanding yet'. > One of my own prejudices is that modern science is taking us closer to Truth > (although there are definite limits in what can be discovered using modern > techniques, and even more limits in the human beings in the sciences), and if > there are multiple interpretations of Theosophical literature, one of which agrees > with modern scientific thought, then that is the interpretation one should use a a > working one until new information comes that contradicts it. So then I wouldn't call this a 'prejudice', but a postulation or partial vision of how things are which one then 'puts to the test' experientially,and in that experience [called living] everything is 'right' and everything is partial. > Therefore, when it was discovered by DNA testing that Neanderthal man was not > an anscestor of modern humanity, but a failed cousin, a fact which greatly > increased the weight of the theory that humanity originally came out of Africa and > spread to the rest of the world from there, I felt that this fit in well with > Leadbeater's concept that humanity originated in one place, then crossed a desert > to spread into the rest of the world. That the desert was the Sahara rather than > the Gobi was, to me, an unimportant detail. Yet many old-time Theosophists treated > this idea as blasphemy. An idea is both self-fulfilling and self-creating, and busy work of life. Beyond the 'busyness', what Is? Cheers Annette -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Apr 12 18:06:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA26204 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:03:58 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000001bfa4d3$7949d600$51ecb3d1@denniski> From: "Dennis Kier" To: References: <3.0.3.32.20000411123951.026cfa70@mail.eden.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World Leadbeater's problem Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:11:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: M K Ramadoss To: Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 10:39 AM Subject: Re: Theos-World Leadbeater's problem > According to K, Leadbeater was temporarily clairvoyant. > According to Leadbeater he was only vaguely clairvoyant, till one day, the Master Morya visited him, laid his hand over CWL's forehead for a time, and then CWL had a real Talent for the rest of his life. He has many books out on the aura, and other things that empahsize the vision. > However in Adyar TS circles he was the undisputed contact person with > Adepts and all his claims were accepted by most as 100% correct. No one > will ever know the full truth or falsity. > > In K's case, it looks like the way he and others expected him to turn out > to be was wrong. They expected that there would be rerun of the way Lord > Maitreya appeared 2000 years ago (apostles, rituals, church etc.) If some > one predicted 2000 years ago that the Lord is going to appear the same way > the Hindu God Krishna appeared, they would have been wrong. That too was prophecied. It was said that the teachings were not going to be what CWL and Besant tried to set up for him. With hindsight, it can be seen that what CWL prophecied is exactly what happened, although not in the way CWL & Besant tried to set it up. They expected it to be on the model of a burst of light, and the GREAT Presence. The reality was more human, with the overshadowing at a more subtle level. But, the results speak for themselves. Perhaps the next World Teacher will be more what people expect, given our experience with this one. And, it was not K who did most of the deciding. He was a very dull boy as a child, - almost a vacant mind, who got beat repeatedly in school because he couldn't retain lessons. His younger brother had to shepard him around remembering his lunch box in the evening, and taking care of him in a practical way. If he saw another child with less than he had, he would give them his books, slate, and things. All through his life he recognised the Master KH as one who came around and checked on him, and gave some of the lectures. The Lord Matriea would come and take over the body for most of the lectures. In the Schloss book (Rajagopal's daughter), the author would remark at his transformation from the time he would start from the living quarters to the lecture stage, and then the change was visible as he left the stage, and went back into the living quarters. > > As for K, whether he was a success or failure can be judged only a century > from now. > For now what seems to be important is if his message has any impact on > human beings and help them change, that is critical. > > Considering the large number of people who are reading his books and > watching his videos, apparently many around the world are interested in the > topics he discussed for over 60 years. > >But, if he really had all of these experiences and capabilities, I don't > >understand why he made a great mistake about Krishnamurti's identity. He > >should have known Krishnamurti was not Master Maitreya. And it is also > >surprising that, with his "great clairvoyance", he was in such a mistake > >for much more than one simple day. He understood the Overshadowing better than you do. He had had experience in watching the process take place with HPB. It is true that K was not Master Maitreya . The Master didn't have the time to waste living and managing a physical body all the time. It is like your automobile. When you get in it, and animate it, it functions in the way you direct it to. The overshadowing works in much the same way. When it was time for the teaching, or writings, the Master was here - or the Master KH could fill in in a pinch. When the teachings was over, the Master went on taking care of HIS other business, leaving the man K to take care of the "vehicle", take care of the lecture schedule, meeting people, and growing in his own right. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Apr 12 22:55:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA32280 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:46:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <003101bfa4fa$73a5fae0$c20ac5a9@azstarnet.com> From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" To: "Caldwell, Daniel H." Subject: Theos-World New Website on the Early History of the Theosophical Society Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:42:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com There is a call for papers for a new website on the early history of the T.S. and the Masters. There will be monthly interviews and it starts today with K. Paul Johnson. The website is titled: HISTORY OF THEOSOPHY http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a7502210/ "These Webpages are to bring together academic and semi academic research related to the early history of the Theosophical Society, its surroundings and legacy." -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Apr 13 00:24:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id AAA07239 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:22:14 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38F601FF.9D6459B3@lainet.com> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:21:14 -0700 From: Martin Leiderman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Leadbeater's problem References: <3.0.3.32.20000411123951.026cfa70@mail.eden.com> <3.0.3.32.20000411231024.01173170@mail.eden.com> <38F45A2B.5CA2361F@sprynet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Thanks Ramadoss and Bart, for your views on Krishnamurti and the World Teacher. I liked the rabbi story. And I think Bart, you are right in saying about clairvoyance Bart Lidofsky wrote: > My take on clairvoyance in general, if it even exists: > > "What one sees is heavily flavored by one's prejudices. " The astral world is very plastic and our minds, the artists. Bart, I hope to meet you some day. I'm schedule to give a talk on Osiris and Quetzalcoatl to the group where Tom Ockerse meet. Do you live in that part of the world? Martin -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Apr 13 07:47:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id HAA06176 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:43:52 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38F5C134.AEB7172B@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:44:36 -0400 From: Bart Lidofsky X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Leadbeater's problem References: <3.0.3.32.20000411123951.026cfa70@mail.eden.com> <3.0.3.32.20000411231024.01173170@mail.eden.com> <38F45A2B.5CA2361F@sprynet.com> <38F601FF.9D6459B3@lainet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com I'm a New Yorker (well, I just moved to Joizee, but I'm still only about 10 miles from the New York Lodge). I am considering coming to the Annual Meeting at Wheaton. Bart Lidofsky Martin Leiderman wrote: > Thanks Ramadoss and Bart, for your views on Krishnamurti and the World Teacher. > > I liked the rabbi story. > And I think Bart, you are right in saying about clairvoyance > > Bart Lidofsky wrote: > > > My take on clairvoyance in general, if it even exists: > > > > "What one sees is heavily flavored by one's prejudices. " > > The astral world is very plastic and our minds, the artists. > > Bart, I hope to meet you some day. > I'm schedule to give a talk on Osiris and Quetzalcoatl to the group where Tom > Ockerse meet. > Do you live in that part of the world? > > Martin > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Apr 15 14:30:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id OAA02116 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:26:03 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: monad@earthling.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00041515251559.20361@weba6.iname.net> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:25:15 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Thesaurus on theosophy Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Friends, For the theosophical library in the Netherlands (TS), we're planning to create a thesaurus of theosophical terms. Once that is available, it can be linked to the resources like books and magazines which we have available for the public. We hope it will help people interested in specific subjects find the relevant materials quickly, and also provide them with a kind of roadmap of terms that are linked together. My question to all of you is: does anyone know of some thesaurus in the field of theosophy that has already been created or is in use by some library for instance? It's not purely details of the ancient wisdom itself but also more broadly the important people involved in the movement, and related subjects on esoteric philosophy in general. I noticed there is some good material online like occult glossaries or the Index to the Secret Doctrine; even though in English (and we are starting out in the Dutch language) that kind of material is suitable as a starting point to establish a list of important theosophical terms. But more interesting will be a clearly defined list of keywords and their cross- references, hierarchies etc. Any tips are welcome! Best wishes, Peter Walstra --------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Apr 15 22:59:51 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA15862 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:55:24 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <017401bfa757$098ea580$e8de603e@Ringding> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: "Theos-Talk@Theosophy.Com" , References: Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] Re: Joe and Dallas on Mrs. Katherine Tingley and her relationship to William Q. Judge Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:19:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Guy, you really don't know of what you are talking about. KT never hold any seances, as HPB never did, too. KT was trained in the same fashion as HPB and WQJ for her task in the outer world. KT was the paraclete and the saver of Theosophy in USA. All that WAS accepted even by a Robert Crosbie. But when Crosbie was kicked out by KT, he began his rumors and dirty talking against KT anf then founded his ULT. Best, Frank > Katherine Tingley took care of Judge while he was dying and > external observers mistook this as some kind of special > relationship. Sorry! there is plenty of hard evidence that the > real connection thru HPB and Judge was elsewhere. I have had > people stare me straight in the face and say that Judge attended > seances with Katherine Tingley ---- so much for fantasy!! Some > day the real story will come out. > best, > jerome -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Apr 16 00:02:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id XAA20346 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:59:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <20000416045751.35261.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.11.239] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Robert Crosbie Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 04:57:51 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com >From: "Frank Reitemeyer" >KT was the paraclete and the saver of Theosophy in USA. >All that WAS accepted even by a Robert Crosbie. Frank, you're correct about Robert Crosbie. Review article "Robert Crosbie-----Devoted Follower & Loyal Defender of Mrs Katherine Tingley." on Internet http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/robertcrosbie.html I've amassed more for a study of Crosbie. David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Apr 16 02:00:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id BAA27052 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:49:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <04e101bfa76f$56b871c0$e8de603e@Ringding> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: References: <003101bfa4fa$73a5fae0$c20ac5a9@azstarnet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World New Website on the Early History of the Theosophical Society Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:22:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com O no, not again that idiotic pseudo-scientific and pseudo-theosophical fairy tale book. If the University of Vienna calls on their web-site this really an "scientific" book we first have to talk about what is Science. Frank > There is a call for papers for a new website on the early history of the > T.S. and the Masters. There will be > monthly interviews and it starts today with K. Paul Johnson. > > The website is titled: > > HISTORY OF THEOSOPHY > http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a7502210/ > > "These Webpages are to bring together academic and semi academic research > related to the early history of the Theosophical Society, its surroundings > and legacy." > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Apr 16 07:18:36 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id HAA11323 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 07:08:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Thesaurus on theosophy Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 05:03:41 -0700 Message-ID: <000801bfa79b$ce54d9e0$317bc4d0@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00041515251559.20361@weba6.iname.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Try using the THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY by HPB At the end of the 2nd Edition of the KEY TO THEOSOPHY (1890 ?) HPB placed about 30 pages of GLOSSARY -- it is not included in the 1st edition 1889. TS Pasadena has recently published a large GLOSSARY. It is very useful. Best wishes, Dallas ==================================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of monad@earthling.net Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 12:25 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Thesaurus on theosophy Friends, For the theosophical library in the Netherlands (TS), we're planning to create a thesaurus of theosophical terms. Once that is available, it can be linked to the resources like books and magazines which we have available for the public. We hope it will help people interested in specific subjects find the relevant materials quickly, and also provide them with a kind of roadmap of terms that are linked together. My question to all of you is: does anyone know of some thesaurus in the field of theosophy that has already been created or is in use by some library for instance? It's not purely details of the ancient wisdom itself but also more broadly the important people involved in the movement, and related subjects on esoteric philosophy in general. I noticed there is some good material online like occult glossaries or the Index to the Secret Doctrine; even though in English (and we are starting out in the Dutch language) that kind of material is suitable as a starting point to establish a list of important theosophical terms. But more interesting will be a clearly defined list of keywords and their cross- references, hierarchies etc. Any tips are welcome! Best wishes, Peter Walstra --------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Apr 16 08:34:11 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA15363 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:30:36 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World RE: DTB = F ? Re: Joe and Dallas on Mrs. Katherine Tingley and her relationship to William Q. Judge Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 06:26:08 -0700 Message-ID: <001101bfa7a7$536a0fa0$317bc4d0@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <017401bfa757$098ea580$e8de603e@Ringding> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com April 16th 2000 Dear Frank: You make some important and to me startling statements. Would you be able to let know what are the SOURCE of those statements? Where can I find any documents that support them? I am a student of Theosophy and also of its history and would like to have available to me such information. That which you offer is quite unsupported. Is it only opinion or is it fact ? Dallas ================================ -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Frank Reitemeyer Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 7:20 PM To: Theos-Talk@Theosophy.Com; study@blavatsky.net Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] Re: Joe and Dallas on Mrs. Katherine Tingley and her relationship to William Q. Judge Guy, you really don't know of what you are talking about. KT never hold any seances, as HPB never did, too. KT was trained in the same fashion as HPB and WQJ for her task in the outer world. KT was the paraclete and the saver of Theosophy in USA. All that WAS accepted even by a Robert Crosbie. But when Crosbie was kicked out by KT, he began his rumors and dirty talking against KT anf then founded his ULT. Best, Frank > Katherine Tingley took care of Judge while he was dying and > external observers mistook this as some kind of special > relationship. Sorry! there is plenty of hard evidence that the > real connection thru HPB and Judge was elsewhere. I have had > people stare me straight in the face and say that Judge attended > seances with Katherine Tingley ---- so much for fantasy!! Some > day the real story will come out. > best, > jerome -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Apr 16 10:04:58 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id JAA21699 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 09:56:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <010b01bfa7b3$5647e4c0$ebde603e@Ringding> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: References: <001101bfa7a7$536a0fa0$317bc4d0@nwc.net> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: DTB = F ? Re: Joe and Dallas on Mrs. Katherine Tingley and her relationship to William Q. Judge Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:52:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Dallas, information about Crosbie's view about KT before and after he was kicked out by her can for example be found in: The Eclectic Theosophist Nos. 37/3, 39/8 or 101/5. That Crosbie accepted first KT is a matter of fact, oral and by documents. Also, that KT has had the same tulku powers as Judge and that they worked together in esoteric matters. Her co-workers confirmed as witnesses that she was in direct connection with the Masters. Please let me emphazize that I do NOT underestimate the value of the important work of the ULT. I only try to balance out what was too one-sided said against KT by Jerome before. Frank > April 16th 2000 > > Dear Frank: > > You make some important and to me startling statements. > > Would you be able to let know what are the SOURCE of those > statements? Where can I find any documents that support them? > > I am a student of Theosophy and also of its history and would > like to have available to me such information. > > That which you offer is quite unsupported. > > Is it only opinion or is it fact ? > > Dallas > > ================================ > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com > [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Frank > Reitemeyer > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2000 7:20 PM > To: Theos-Talk@Theosophy.Com; study@blavatsky.net > Subject: Theos-World Re: [bn-study] Re: Joe and Dallas on Mrs. > Katherine > Tingley and her relationship to William Q. Judge > > > Guy, you really don't know of what you are talking about. > KT never hold any seances, as HPB never did, too. > KT was trained in the same fashion as HPB and WQJ for her task in > the outer > world. > KT was the paraclete and the saver of Theosophy in USA. > All that WAS accepted even by a Robert Crosbie. > But when Crosbie was kicked out by KT, he began his rumors and > dirty > talking against > KT anf then founded his ULT. > Best, Frank > > > Katherine Tingley took care of Judge while he was dying and > > external observers mistook this as some kind of special > > relationship. Sorry! there is plenty of hard evidence that the > > real connection thru HPB and Judge was elsewhere. I have had > > people stare me straight in the face and say that Judge > attended > > seances with Katherine Tingley ---- so much for fantasy!! Some > > day the real story will come out. > > best, > > jerome > > > > > > > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- > theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting > of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Apr 16 10:44:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id KAA26096 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:38:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <016d01bfa7b9$26a81040$ebde603e@Ringding> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" To: "Basic@Blavatsky.Net" , References: <001101bfa7a7$536a0fa0$317bc4d0@nwc.net> <010b01bfa7b3$5647e4c0$ebde603e@Ringding> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: DTB = F ? Re: Joe and Dallas on Mrs. Katherine Tingley and her relationship to William Q. Judge Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:28:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > > You make some important and to me startling statements. > > > > Would you be able to let know what are the SOURCE of those > > statements? Where can I find any documents that support them? see for online information under: http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/revisionist.htm -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Apr 16 11:14:00 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id LAA28666 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:06:44 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <20000416160523.24266.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Originating-IP: [169.197.11.239] From: "David Green" To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Re: DTB = F ? Re: on Mrs. Katherine Tingley Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 16:05:23 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com "W. Dallas TenBroeck" wrote: >Would you be able to let know what are the SOURCE of those >statements? Where can I find any documents that support them? > >I am a student of Theosophy and also of its history and would >like to have available to me such information. > >That which you offer is quite unsupported. > >Is it only opinion or is it fact ? Mr TenBroeck,----- The statement about Crosbie as a loyal devoted follower of Tingley is well supported & documented. Review the article "Robert Crosbie-----Devoted Follower & Loyal Defender of Mrs Katherine Tingley." on Internet http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/robertcrosbie.html The documents reproduced there are in the words of Crosbie & support Mr. Reitemeyer's positiion. Review also------ "Mr Crosbie's Revisionist Account of His Association with Mrs Tingley" http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/revisionist.htm "In 1896, Mr Crosbie's Knowledge of Mrs Tingley was not based on Second Hand Reports" http://members.tripod.com/davidgreen_2/cros1896.htm David Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Apr 16 18:24:15 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA05179 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 16 Apr 2000 18:18:50 -0500 X-Authenticati