From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Mar 1 13:16:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id MAA08269 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 12:57:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <004a01bf83af$a7335d60$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> From: "Eugene Carpenter" To: Subject: Theos-World Cool. I like this alot. It says everything at once. Eugene. Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:55:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01BF836C.98E6C370" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3612.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BF836C.98E6C370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i -----Original Message----- From: Barr Date: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Are the Great Masters mere fiction? =20 =20 re: dreams. In "Transactions of the Blavatsky Lodge," H.P.B. = ennumerates seven (7) types of dreams. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BF836C.98E6C370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Barr
Date: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 9:23 = PM
Subject:=20 Re: Theos-World RE: Are the Great Masters mere=20 fiction?

re: dreams.  = In=20 "Transactions of the Blavatsky Lodge," H.P.B. ennumerates = seven=20 (7) types of dreams.
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01BF836C.98E6C370-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Wed Mar 1 18:18:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA17475 for theos-talk-outgoing; Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:06:43 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "Free Tibet" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Cool. I like this alot. It says everything at once. Eugene. Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 10:32:00 +1030 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF8432.8B11E420" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <004a01bf83af$a7335d60$2920020a@toetag105.its.co.la.ca.us> Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF8432.8B11E420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit if you highlight the text you can read it -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Eugene Carpenter Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 5:25 AM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Cool. I like this alot. It says everything at once. Eugene. i -----Original Message----- From: Barr Date: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: Are the Great Masters mere fiction? re: dreams. In "Transactions of the Blavatsky Lodge," H.P.B. ennumerates seven (7) types of dreams. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF8432.8B11E420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
if you highlight the text you can read=20 it
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com = [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On=20 Behalf Of Eugene Carpenter
Sent: Thursday, March 02, = 2000 5:25=20 AM
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: = Theos-World Cool.=20 I like this alot. It says everything at once. = Eugene.

i
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Barr
Date: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 9:23 = PM
Subject:=20 Re: Theos-World RE: Are the Great Masters mere=20 fiction?

re: dreams.  = In=20 "Transactions of the Blavatsky Lodge," H.P.B. ennumerates seven (7) = types of=20 dreams.
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF8432.8B11E420-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Mar 2 01:16:32 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id BAA24870 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 01:11:21 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000301bf8415$ad2c3b40$0113f4d8@denniski> From: "Dennis Kier" To: References: <001101bf82bf$8f55ea00$0e0e75ce@nwc.net> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND MASTERS Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:25:52 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: W. Dallas TenBroeck To: Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:16 AM Subject: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND MASTERS > > You ask about HPB and her work. She was emphatically not a > > "shell." She was an Adept and worked as such. There are > > apparently times when an Adept can allow a Brother Adept to use > > as their "vehicle" the body that one has to use in any one > > incarnation. But the "owner of the body" does NOT lose > > consciousness -- only "stands aside" for a while as HPB > describes > > it clearly. It is unimportant that you may interpret things > you > > study differently from myself. That is always true among > > students. > I see. I was under the impression that this was a conversation. I see it is a word/defination discussion. I will try to alter my approach to communicate better in that mode. HPB says" Someone comes and envelopes me as a misty cloud and all at once pushes me out of myself, and then I am not 'I' anymore-- Helena Petrovna Blavatsky-- but someone else....I even understand and remember it all so well that afterwards I can repeat it and even write down his words...." I suppose that you wish me to put in here the reference, so you can go and read it for yourself, and as you probably have the material close at hand, it was from a letter written by H.P.B. to her sister, vera, and was one of a series published by William Q. Judge in his magazine, The Path, December 1894, Vol IX, No. 9, p.266. The Evaluation of the situation by another who knew her is that, "I will put forth my own theory, For the purpose of the theosophical work that body was an instrument used by one of the Masters, known to us as H.P.B. When he had to attend to other business, the instrument was left in charge of one of his pupils or friends, who ran the body as an engineer directs his machine when taking duty for another...." This is from Dr. Keightley, (who helped put toghether the SD.) Theosophical Quarterly, New York, Vol. VII, October, 1910. Republished in Theosophia, Los Angeles, Vol. XVI, No. 1, p.20. You say she was not a "shell". Olcott & the Masters called her that, but in a colloquial way. There may not be a real good technical description of what she was. One of the Masters called the shell, "it and the brother inside it." Old Diary Leaves, Vol. 1, p.247. There are other instances, but if you read the book, you should find them. One Technical term is "Tulku", but they say she was not exactly that, but in a situation similar to that. ODL, V.1, p. 243--246. Another definition of the term is on page 481 of BLAVATSKY COLLECTED WRITINGS, Vol. 1. Earlier in the last century, around 1918, the Communists killed the Tzar and his family. One of the daughters, not at the end of her Karma, found the body of a Polish girl, a few years older than her, who had tried to commit suicide, and the body was lying in a hospital bed, in a coma. When this body woke up, it had the memories of the Russian Princess, -Anastasia-. People who had known the Russian, said that the awakened girl had all the memories and mannerisms of Anastasia. DNA tests a few years ago proved that she was no physical relation to the Royal Families of europe. This was no doubt, an example of the Tulku process happening accidently. It happened again a few years earlier in England, when a little 4 year old girl named Dorothy Eady fell down stairs, went into a coma, and when she woke up in her own bed, demanded to be taken home. And, she didn't mean England. Jonathan Cott wrote a book about it, THE SEARCH FOR OMM SETY. I'll bet that he didn't set the type for it, or run the presses, or order the thing done by himself either. Published by Doubleday & Company, Garden City, New York, 1987, ISBN 0-385-23746-4. She found her home when they visited the British Museum, in the Egyptian section. She wanted to stay. She asked why things were all old and broken, since when she had gone to sleep, everything was new and and painted. The point is that this happens in nature, and the Tibetan Lamas have made use of this human characteristic & ability, to mimic it when projecting their consciousness. They usually keep their own natural body, and just overwhelm, or overshadow the "shell" of the person they wish to use. Sometimes it is their students. The masters had a problem with Karma. They looked long and hard for a "European Body" that they could send out to Europe & America to teach their beliefs, and to start their Society.They didn't want the Karma associated with taking over a living person who was not through with their life, so thay looked and waited. HPB had been associated with them before this incarnation, and She had met her "Adept" in London In (1851 if I recall correctly). She got involved in a war, and needed assistance. They threw the body in a ditch since they thought she was dead. Olcott said that she had shown him where her arm had been broken in two places, and a severe wound over the heart, and another one as well, from that battle. Her Master re-animated her, and they formed a "club" to use her, much in the manner of a TULKU, except that one of them occupied the body all the time. They took turns. There were 7 Masters in the group. In the Collected Works, Vol.1, pp. 414--415, bottom of p. 414 they note "Narayan left watch-- and in came Sahib. (Master M) The latter with orders from Serapis to complete all by the first days of December." In the MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P.SINNETT, letter # 45, he closes with "I am called to duty." p.246. What duty? -well, it is his turn to animate the shell, and not let it die. (my conclusion, of course) In OLD DIARY LEAVES, Vol. 1, p 289, 290, 291. concerning Olcott's Technical Term for the shell, "avesa" "To return to the matter of the occupancy (avesa) of H.P.B.'s body. ... Let us say that the Master A or B had been "on guard" an hour or more, had been working on ISIS, alone or jointly with me, and was at a given moment saying something to me, or if third parties were present to one of them. Suddenly she (he?) stops speaking, rises and leaves the room, excusing herself for a moment on some pretext to strangers. She presently returns, looks around as any new arrival would upon entering a room where there was company, makes herself a fresh cigarette, and says something which has not the least reference to what had been talked about when whe left the room. Some one present, wishing to keep her to the point, asks her kindly to explain. She shows embarrassment and inability to pick up the thread;.... says, "Oh yes: excuse me," and goes on with her subject. She was sometimes as quick as lightning in these changes, and I myself, forgetting her multiplex personality, have often been irritated for her seeming inability to keep to the same subject.... On the same page, Olcott describes how the Master occupies the body. "entered and by slow degrees occupied the whole body of the dead down to its very feet." This brings to mind the Hawaiian practice of the Kahunas sending one of their captive spirits (like you think HPB was when standing beside her body when a Master was inside) to attack & kill a victim. Max Freedom Long, THE SECRET SCIENCE BEHIND MIRACLES, & THE SECRET SCIENCE AT WORK. They claim that in the process of the attack, first the feet go numb, and the numbness creeps up the body, and when it reaches the heart region, the victim dies. The Masters are evidently using some similar capacity of the human body when they do their thing. They also use this capacity when they wish to recognize a new Dali Lama, or other reincarnational Lama, when they energize the body of a baby, to see if it will recognize the tools and possessions of the old Lama. In Old Diary Leaves, Vol. 1, p 291, "I have noted above how various Mahatmas, in writing to me about H.P.B. and her body, spoke of the latter as a shell occupied by one of themselves." > After her death (as far as I can see and read) he made some > accusations that he had not dared utter to her while she was > alive. He also showed his animosity to Mr. Judge in more ways > than one and was instrumental in promoting the "Judge Case" > beyond reasonable limits, especially as it had been terminated in > July 1894, and BROTHERHOOD was the prime Object of the > Theosophical Society. As for BROTHERHOOD, I note very little of it in the Theosophical Community, what with 3 or more distinct organizations, locally, all claiming to be the One, True, and Original society. If there were true Brotherhood, you would think that they could all get together, stop fighting each other, stop wasting their members money duplicating each other's efforts, and try to extend Brotherhood to each other as well as the potential new members. > Olcott asked one of the Adepts, when they were together how many > different > varieties of Adept there is, and the Master said 65. > > DTB Do you have the reference for this statement? I cannot > recollect it. I would be obliged for your giving me the source > for it. Where did the Master say "65 ?" > Is there anything else given there in additional explanation? > I would very much like to be able to see it. > To myself I say: And why "65" and not "70 ?" > I cannot recollect reading this in MAHATMA LETTERS, or some of > the other sources that have reprinted Masters' letters. But then > I have not read everything either. I must confess that I made an error in quoting that number from memory. The number is "63". ODL, Vol.1 p278. There is another quotation which points to there being more than one type on each level. Collected Writings, Volume XIV, p. 435 , These degrees are "based (on) the seven and twelve degrees of the Hierarchy of Adeptship..... All these are men, and not disembodied Beings,..." And then there is another matter. As a shell, (Avesa, Tulku, whatever name you may wish to use) HPB did very slight phenomena before she got the bullet to the heart fighting for Garibaldi. After the Group of Seven took over the body, it could do all sorts of phenomena. It was the battery for the transfer of letters back and forth from and to the Masters. After her death, they quit sending letters, claiming that there was no more power. Collected Writings, Vol. XIII, p. 93, "....It has never claimed to be the full exposition of the system (it advocates) in its totality; (a) because as the writer does not boast of being a great Initiate, she could, therefore, never have undertaken such a gigantic task; and (b) because had she been one, she would have divulged still less..." You and Mr. Judge say that she is an Adept. She says she was not. Who shall one believe? I have seen plump individuals used as batteries for mediums at many churches. It is rather common, once you know what to look for. It is obvious that HPB had this capacity. So, it is back to studying the material, and noting those things that have special meaning for me. It appears to me that your purpose in studying Theosophy, is to Study Theosophy. My purpose is to evolve closer to the end of the Adept state, and beyond. There is a lot of material to put together, and to make a pattern, and to put it into practice. Otherwise, for me, it is just an intellectual exercise for the purpose of doing the exercise. Dennis I left out lots of quotes. Hope no one minds. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Mar 2 21:04:30 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id UAA11485 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:59:51 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND MASTERS Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:51:41 -0800 Message-ID: <000f01bf84bb$6f7a4ca0$1f0e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000301bf8415$ad2c3b40$0113f4d8@denniski> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 2 2000 Dear Dennis: Thank you and I would like to respond below: I am always careful of what I write as usually (otherwise) it means one has to do things twice. Just a habit of mine and not anything else. Dallas dalval@nwc.net ============================ -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Kier Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:26 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND MASTERS ----- Original Message ----- From: W. Dallas TenBroeck Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:16 AM > > You ask about HPB and her work. She was emphatically not a > > "shell." She was an Adept and worked as such. There are > > apparently times when an Adept can allow a Brother Adept to use > > as their "vehicle" the body that one has to use in any one > > incarnation. But the "owner of the body" does NOT lose > > consciousness -- only "stands aside" for a while as HPB > >describes it clearly. It is unimportant that you may interpret things > >you study differently from myself. That is always true among > > students. > I see. I was under the impression that this was a conversation. I see it is a word/defination discussion. I will try to alter my approach to communicate better in that mode. HPB says" Someone comes and envelopes me as a misty cloud and all at once pushes me out of myself, and then I am not 'I' anymore-- Helena Petrovna Blavatsky-- but someone else....I even understand and remember it all so well that afterwards I can repeat it and even write down his words...." I suppose that you wish me to put in here the reference, so you can go and read it for yourself, and as you probably have the material close at hand, it was from a letter written by H.P.B. to her sister, vera, and was one of a series published by William Q. Judge in his magazine, The Path, December 1894, Vol IX, No. 9, p.266. DTB Correct I have it here. She was describing the event for her family to understand what happened. She was still in control and CONSCIOUS . A medium usually is not. An Adept is always aware at all times. ---------------------------------- The Evaluation of the situation by another who knew her is that, "I will put forth my own theory, For the purpose of the theosophical work that body was an instrument used by one of the Masters, known to us as H.P.B. When he had to attend to other business, the instrument was left in charge of one of his pupils or friends, who ran the body as an engineer directs his machine when taking duty for another...." This is from Dr. Keightley, (who helped put toghether the SD.) Theosophical Quarterly, New York, Vol. VII, October, 1910. Republished in Theosophia, Los Angeles, Vol. XVI, No. 1, p.20. DTB Yes that is Keightley's way of expressing the matter. But that does not make it correct. Do you mean THEOSOPHY Vol 17 ? -------------------------------------------------- You say she was not a "shell". Olcott & the Masters called her that, but in a colloquial way. There may not be a real good technical description of what she was. One of the Masters called the shell, "it and the brother inside it." Old Diary Leaves, Vol. 1, p.247. There are other instances, but if you read the book, you should find them. DTB understood, however the usual use of the word "SHELL" implies (to me) that condition is of a non-self-conscious medium usually in a trance. HPB as far as I can ascertain was an ADEPT and always was in control. She "loaned" her body to other Adepts. But was not unconscious of the event or of the use. I guess I am splitting hairs, and regret annoying you. But it is always my practice to be as explicit as possible in comminuting so as to avoid any such time waste as this represents to both of us. ---------------------------------------- One Technical term is "Tulku", but they say she was not exactly that, but in a situation similar to that. ODL, V.1, p. 243--246. Another definition of the term is on page 481 of BLAVATSKY COLLECTED WRITINGS, Vol. 1. DTB I am aware of both of these. ------------------------------------------------ Earlier in the last century, around 1918, the Communists killed the Tzar and his family. One of the daughters, not at the end of her Karma, found the body of a Polish girl, a few years older than her, who had tried to commit suicide, and the body was lying in a hospital bed, in a coma. When this body woke up, it had the memories of the Russian Princess, -Anastasia-. People who had known the Russian, said that the awakened girl had all the memories and mannerisms of Anastasia. DNA tests a few years ago proved that she was no physical relation to the Royal Families of Europe. DTB Theosophy offers the possibility that the body of the unconscious person was left vacant and by some rule of Karma it could be use by the intelligence of the princess. That is only a guess, as it might mean that the "astral and personal nature did not have to go through Devachan, but because it had some ancient affinity for the personality of the now unconscious body of the failed suicide, these two events permitted such a transfer. Did the personality of the Polish girl ever surface again? Did anyone maintain a study of the Polish girl to see if this now "borrowed body" continued to be used by "Anastasia?" Or does that fade away and no history was maintained ? It would be interesting to see if there are any records of that aspect. Do you know any more of that? I do not think of anything that happens "accidentally" as the whole of Nature runs under very definite laws. to us it may seem to be extraordinary, but there must be some logical reason for events to occur -- even such a strange one as this. I am sure you are aware of the case of Mr. Judge ? But that is even stranger as reported. See LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME p. 249 ULT Edition: IN A BORROWED BODY. ------------------------ This was no doubt, an example of the Tulku process happening accidently. It happened again a few years earlier in England, when a little 4 year old girl named Dorothy Eady fell down stairs, went into a coma, and when she woke up in her own bed, demanded to be taken home. And, she didn't mean England. Jonathan Cott wrote a book about it, THE SEARCH FOR OMM SETY. I'll bet that he didn't set the type for it, or run the presses, or order the thing done by himself either. Published by Doubleday & Company, Garden City, New York, 1987, ISBN 0-385-23746-4. She found her home when they visited the British Museum, in the Egyptian section. She wanted to stay. She asked why things were all old and broken, since when she had gone to sleep, everything was new and and painted. DTB I have know of several cases where the reincarnation of the Ego into a child body (usually below the age of 7) may evoke a memory of the past personal life. Usually this fades, but for those who may not be aware of reincarnation the effect is startling and often can evoke an attempt to "shush" the child. -------------------------------------------- The point is that this happens in nature, and the Tibetan Lamas have made use of this human characteristic & ability, to mimic it when projecting their consciousness. They usually keep their own natural body, and just overwhelm, or overshadow the "shell" of the person they wish to use. Sometimes it is their students. DTB Also ISIS II 600-2 HPB illustrates this process. I am sure that this is no "mimicry" it is an actuality and implies a knowledge of psychology and a control of the pathways of the Conscious Self of One's SELF and that of others. But also it is clear that his exchange or control is only done when there is a good Karmic reason for it. I also believe that Abbe Huc narrates something along these lines in his travel book. I seem to recall that. --------------------------------------------- The masters had a problem with Karma. They looked long and hard for a "European Body" that they could send out to Europe & America to teach their beliefs, and to start their Society.They didn't want the Karma associated with taking over a living person who was not through with their life, so thay looked and waited. DTB I am aware of what they write on this , but your interpretation seems to me to be yours and not theirs. Karma is no "problem" to Them. The avoid making any "bad" karma. They live under the same rules we do, but as they are aware of them and their inflexibility, they avoid evoking them adversely. WE seem to be interested in the phenomenal process and in performing some unusual feat of control -- but the reason, the motive for that is known only to ourselves, and could be quite selfish/ the question is then, is it necessary? Does it help the rest of the world? Is it an aspect of Brotherhood? =============================== HPB had been associated with them before this incarnation, and She had met her "Adept" in London In (1851 if I recall correctly). DTB Yes she met her Master in the flesh in London in 1851 and recorded it in her diary. But she also noted that it was a meeting of the "Master of her dreams" as she had seen him before in her mind's eye, or, as an astral vision when she was a younger person. ================================= She got involved in a war, and needed assistance. They threw the body in a ditch since they thought she was dead. Olcott said that she had shown him where her arm had been broken in two places, and a severe wound over the heart, and another one as well, from that battle. DTB That was when she was with Garibaldi at the battle of Mentana, I believe. she was wounded several times and left for dead, but they revived and returned. It ha also been hinted (but I have not found a primary source for this) that at that time there was a change of inner SELF and her body was perhaps reanimated with ANOTHER CONSCIOUSNESS -- which we know of as "HPB" -- and yet the personality retained all the memories of its earlier years. But we simply are speculating here and are arriving at no useful conclusion. I say let THEOSOPHY or, the presentation thereof be witness to the WISDOM of the HPB who acted as Messenger of the Mahatmas and our friend. I do not think we will be able to "explain" her Olcott tried and offered many theories, but of what use? He did not profit very well from the presentation of THEOSOPHY at least the ethics that are part of the theory and metaphysics and are logically derived from them -- did not attract his close attention as things to be practised -- or the course of the T S once that HPB and WQJ her dead would have been quite different. ============================ Her Master re-animated her, and they formed a "club" to use her, much in the manner of a TULKU, except that one of them occupied the body all the time. They took turns. There were 7 Masters in the group. DTB THAT IS NEWS TO ME. I never read this and wonder if you could direct me to the source of this statement. ============================= In the Collected Works, Vol.1, pp. 414--415, bottom of p. 414 they note "Narayan left watch-- and in came Sahib. (Master M) The latter with orders from Serapis to complete all by the first days of December. DTB I took note of this too, but "keeping watch" does not mean that the body was INFORMED. It means that it was carefully watched over. To read more into it is not the way I would go. It is speculation. I do not find that being informed of this helps me to lead a better or more spiritual life. How does it help you ? ===================================== In the MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P.SINNETT, letter # 45, he closes with "I am called to duty." p.246. What duty? -well, it is his turn to animate the shell, and not let it die. (my conclusion, of course) DTB YES, I think it is yours, but then in those same letters in other places the "other duties" are often referred to, and as far as I can see they do not always focus on HPB. Usually they indicate limits on the time that the Master can spend in correspondence with Sinnett. =================================== In OLD DIARY LEAVES, Vol. 1, p 289, 290, 291. concerning Olcott's Technical Term for the shell, "avesa" "To return to the matter of the occupancy (avesa) of H.P.B.'s body. ... Let us say that the Master A or B had been "on guard" an hour or more, had been working on ISIS, alone or jointly with me, and was at a given moment saying something to me, or if third parties were present to one of them. Suddenly she (he?) stops speaking, rises and leaves the room, excusing herself for a moment on some pretext to strangers. She presently returns, looks around as any new arrival would upon entering a room where there was company, makes herself a fresh cigarette, and says something which has not the least reference to what had been talked about when whe left the room. Some one present, wishing to keep her to the point, asks her kindly to explain. She shows embarrassment and inability to pick up the thread;.... says, "Oh yes: excuse me," and goes on with her subject. She was sometimes as quick as lightning in these changes, and I myself, forgetting her multiplex personality, have often been irritated for her seeming inability to keep to the same subject.... On the same page, Olcott describes how the Master occupies the body. "entered and by slow degrees occupied the whole body of the dead down to its very feet." DTB I looked up those pages in my OLD DIARY LEAVES SERIES of 6 volumes. Mine is the 2nd edition 1928 -- and the pagination seems to be different. If you could let me have the CHAPTER location. Olcott and others were interested in the phenomena and the processes they could witness. I am interested in the PHILOSOPHY and not those other things (of which I am aware) but as they have nothing (or little) to do with the PHILOSOPHY, I relegate them to the position of being interesting events --side issues -- and not of any great importance (to me). I say to myself that the PHILOSOPHY OF THEOSOPHY will survive a long time when these descriptions of how HPB did this or that are long forgotten. ===================================== This brings to mind the Hawaiian practice of the Kahunas sending one of their captive spirits (like you think HPB was when standing beside her body when a Master was inside) to attack & kill a victim. Max Freedom Long, THE SECRET SCIENCE BEHIND MIRACLES, & THE SECRET SCIENCE AT WORK. They claim that in the process of the attack, first the feet go numb, and the numbness creeps up the body, and when it reaches the heart region, the victim dies. DTB Did you ever come across and read HPB's story CAN THE DOUBLE MURDER? 1876 -77 (Modern Panarion, p. 95). (see HPB LETTERS TO A.P.Sinnett p. 151-3 on how this was written). HPB explains this capacity of the astral body to be sent and directed. I do not think that numbing death that Freedom Long writes of is a parallel case. As I recall Socrates describes it after he drank the hemlock. But dying is not being in-formed, is it ? ------------------------------------------------------- The Masters are evidently using some similar capacity of the human body when they do their thing. DTB I am not sure what you imply by that. Seems to be very vague and speculative to me. =============================== They also use this capacity when they wish to recognize a new Dali Lama, or other reincarnational Lama, when they energize the body of a baby, to see if it will recognize the tools and possessions of the old Lama. DTB I am also not sure that the Masters play any hand in such things. To impute it to Them is quite speculative and may be very inaccurate I think. Is this process not also illustrated in ISIS II 598 ? ---------------------------------------- In Old Diary Leaves, Vol. 1, p 291, "I have noted above how various Mahatmas, in writing to me about H.P.B. and her body, spoke of the latter as a shell occupied by one of themselves." DTB Quite true, but might mean that the Conscious Entity we call HPB is a Master, and He/she used that body . If that is the case, that does not mean that HPB as the Adept using that body was a non-entity, or incapable of self-will and self-direction. Of course the whole thing turns into an argument and that is again a waste of time and proves nothing as only HPB or one of the Masters could settle the matter. And why should they waste the time? ======================================= > After her death (as far as I can see and read) he made some > accusations that he had not dared utter to her while she was > alive. He also showed his animosity to Mr. Judge in more ways > than one and was instrumental in promoting the "Judge Case" > beyond reasonable limits, especially as it had been terminated in > July 1894, and BROTHERHOOD was the prime Object of the > Theosophical Society. As for BROTHERHOOD, I note very little of it in the Theosophical Community, what with 3 or more distinct organizations, locally, all claiming to be the One, True, and Original society. If there were true Brotherhood, you would think that they could all get together, stop fighting each other, stop wasting their members money duplicating each other's efforts, and try to extend Brotherhood to each other as well as the potential new members. DTB I have no argument against that proposal. However persons will be individuals and make up their own minds in their own way (and bear the karmic consequences of that). To join one of the TSes or another does not in any way help anyone. The only value that I can detect is that one might be able to cross check one's conclusions with others so as to make sure that they are more accurate than what one might be able to arrive at alone. In such mattes thee is no need to assume one is either superior or inferior. since we are all "Immortal Pilgrims" our "age" is probably quite uniform. But the areas in which we have made ourselves proficient may differ. Also, although all men can look into a Diamond through one facet or another, it does not change the Diamond, only the views differ. ==================================== > Olcott asked one of the Adepts, when they were together how many > different varieties of Adept there is, and the Master said 65. > > DTB Do you have the reference for this statement? I cannot > recollect it. I would be obliged for your giving me the source > for it. Where did the Master say "65 ?" > Is there anything else given there in additional explanation? > I would very much like to be able to see it. > To myself I say: And why "65" and not "70 ?" > I cannot recollect reading this in MAHATMA LETTERS, or some of > the other sources that have reprinted Masters' letters. But then > I have not read everything either. I must confess that I made an error in quoting that number from memory. The number is "63". ODL, Vol.1 p278. DTB THANKS BUT I THINK YOU GOT THE WRONG PAGE, AS THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT THAT THERE. So ? Maybe there was a change in pagination ? What chapter ? It is also possible that my 2nd edition has a different pagination than yours. what Chapter do you read that in? ==================== ? ================= There is another quotation which points to there being more than one type on each level. Blavatsky: Collected Writings, Volume XIV, p. 435 , These degrees are "based (on) the seven and twelve degrees of the Hierarchy of Adeptship..... All these are men, and not disembodied Beings,..." DTB AGREED THAT THERE ARE ADEPTS AT VARIOUS LEVELS. I would imagine that in an Infinite Universe with uncountable "incarnations/manifestations, there are most probably many MONADS which have attained far higher areas of responsibility than we might imagine. Suffice it, then that we learn what lessons we can from the position we are in at present. That would include, I think the attitude of assistance which can be exchanged between us all -- and in that we are all BROTHERS. ----------------------------------------- And then there is another matter. As a shell, (Avesa, Tulku, whatever name you may wish to use) HPB did very slight phenomena before she got the bullet to the heart fighting for Garibaldi. After the Group of Seven took over the body, it could do all sorts of phenomena. It was the battery for the transfer of letters back and forth from and to the Masters. After her death, they quit sending letters, claiming that there was no more power. DTB NEAR THE HEART not TO THE HEART as I read it. also although she was healed I have not read of there being a "GROUP OF SEVEN" who took over the body. DO YOU HAVE A REFERENCE FOR THAT ? As to HPB's phenomena one need only refer to the accounts of her family when as she a young woman returned to visit them and they marveled at the quantity of "manifestations" all around her. so saying they were "slight" seems hardly the right term, unless you qualify it and add ("to my knowledge.") =================================== Collected Writings, Vol. XIII, p. 93, "....It has never claimed to be the full exposition of the system (it advocates) in its totality; (a) because as the writer does not boast of being a great Initiate, she could, therefore, never have undertaken such a gigantic task; and (b) because had she been one, she would have divulged still less..." You and Mr. Judge say that she is an Adept. She says she was not. Who shall one believe? DTB Why not trust what she wrote? I mean the PHILOSOPHY ? Has that been destroyed by these accounts and details? HPB did not say she was NOT an INITIATE. She said that she was not a GREAT initiate. There is a difference, and we cannot rate that. Many have been the speculations written after her death as to who or what the Real HPB was -- even extending such ideas to including in them an "incarnation of Tsong-kha-pa." ======================================== I have seen plump individuals used as batteries for mediums at many churches. It is rather common, once you know what to look for. It is obvious that HPB had this capacity. DTB NOT TO ME AND I WOULD SAY THAT IS A PRESUMPTION. Something that we cannot prove but only speculate about. HPB adopted a very sedentary way of lie after she arrived in America so as to write all that had to be done. Earlier she had been very active and widely traveled. Frequently those who cease being active develop fat -- but that is only an observation and not part of any speculation on my part. She was said to have developed several diseases which would have resulted in her premature death and also prevented THE SECRET DOCTRINE from being issued. Apparently ( as Countess Wachmeister) recorded, she was known, at least once if not twice, to have refused death and continued working and writing for THEOSOPHY and for the TS. ================================== So, it is back to studying the material, and noting those things that have special meaning for me. It appears to me that your purpose in studying Theosophy, is to Study Theosophy. My purpose is to evolve closer to the end of the Adept state, and beyond. There is a lot of material to put together, and to make a pattern, and to put it into practice. Otherwise, for me, it is just an intellectual exercise for the purpose of doing the exercise. DTB Each to his own. If you think you will do well with your area and method, then good. Yes I do study THEOSOPHY. The study of people and events may also eventually lead to some conclusions, but if they are limited to our present views, I am afraid that we will miss the larger picture. If you want a valuable book to look over then borrow a copy of M. Gomes THEOSOPHY IN THE 19TH CENTURY -- An Annotated Bibliography, [1994 Garland Publishing New York & London] Looking through its pages many aspects of Theosophical history and the nature and work of HPB are made to stand out. There are 2057 entries there. It would take years to go through all of them. Best wishes, Dallas --------------------------------------- Dennis I left out lots of quotes. Hope no one minds. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Mar 2 22:33:29 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA21195 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:24:18 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <000d01bf84d0$f3033180$1706c5a9@azstarnet.com> From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" To: References: <000f01bf84bb$6f7a4ca0$1f0e75ce@nwc.net> Subject: Theos-World a "GROUP OF SEVEN" who took over the body Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 21:25:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dallas writes to Dennis: "I have not read of there being a "GROUP OF SEVEN" who took over the body. DO YOU HAVE A REFERENCE FOR THAT ?" Yes, I too would like see what references there are to a group of seven Adepts or Masters who took over the HPB body. Daniel -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Mar 2 22:41:25 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA23116 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:39:52 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <001c01bf84d3$1f983d60$1706c5a9@azstarnet.com> From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" To: References: <000f01bf84bb$6f7a4ca0$1f0e75ce@nwc.net> Subject: Theos-World Dallas' and Dennis' references to various historical documents on HPB Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 21:41:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dallas and Dennis: thanks for your references to various primary sources on HPB, ie., HPB's letters to her relatives, the Keightley article, etc. etc. I would like to remind everyone that many of these sources have been reprinted on the Web at the Blavatsky Archives Online. And we have several hundred more documents being processed for publication by this spring. Our intent is to eventually publish some 3, 500 items dealing with H.P. Blavatsky's life, work, writings and teachings. Visit our web site at: http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/index.htm Click on the "Archives". Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES ONLINE blafoun@azstarnet.com Also if you have suggestions regarding what should be reprinted or if you have access to material that you think is important and should be more widely disseminated, please let us know about this material. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Thu Mar 2 22:56:26 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id WAA23484 for theos-talk-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 22:42:44 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000b01bf84c9$ba39b420$b3b57ed8@computer> From: "Barrett Culmback" To: References: <000f01bf84bb$6f7a4ca0$1f0e75ce@nwc.net> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND MASTERS Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:34:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.3825.400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3825.400 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Comment the beginning lines of the S.D.: "The author, the writer, rather ..." ICQ#: 63631087 Interested in 'Consciousness'? Go To: http://www.egroups.com/group/I2c2much/info.html "It is understandable that a child might fear the darkness; less so that an adult would fear the light." Plato ----- Original Message ----- From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:51 PM Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND MASTERS > March 2 2000 > > Dear Dennis: > > Thank you and I would like to respond below: > > I am always careful of what I write as usually (otherwise) it > means one has to do things twice. > Just a habit of mine and not anything else. > > Dallas > > dalval@nwc.net > > ============================ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com > [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Kier > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:26 PM > To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND > MASTERS > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: W. Dallas TenBroeck > Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:16 AM > > > > You ask about HPB and her work. She was emphatically not a > > > "shell." She was an Adept and worked as such. There are > > > apparently times when an Adept can allow a Brother Adept to > use > > > as their "vehicle" the body that one has to use in any one > > > incarnation. But the "owner of the body" does NOT lose > > > consciousness -- only "stands aside" for a while as HPB > > >describes it clearly. It is unimportant that you may > interpret things > > >you study differently from myself. That is always true among > > > students. > > > > I see. I was under the impression that this was a conversation. I > see it is > a word/defination discussion. I will try to alter my approach to > communicate > better in that mode. > > HPB says" Someone comes and envelopes me as a misty cloud and all > at once > pushes me out of myself, and then I am not 'I' anymore-- Helena > Petrovna > Blavatsky-- but someone else....I even understand and remember it > all so > well that afterwards I can repeat it and even write down his > words...." > > I suppose that you wish me to put in here the reference, so you > can go and > read it for yourself, and as you probably have the material close > at hand, > it was from a letter written by H.P.B. to her sister, vera, and > was one of a > series published by William Q. Judge in his magazine, The Path, > December > 1894, Vol IX, No. 9, p.266. > > DTB Correct I have it here. She was describing the event for > her family to understand what happened. She was still in control > and CONSCIOUS . A medium usually is not. An Adept is always > aware at all times. > ---------------------------------- > > The Evaluation of the situation by another who knew her is that, > "I will put > forth my own theory, For the purpose of the theosophical work > that body was > an instrument used by one of the Masters, known to us as H.P.B. > When he had > to attend to other business, the instrument was left in charge of > one of his > pupils or friends, who ran the body as an engineer directs his > machine when > taking duty for another...." This is from Dr. Keightley, (who > helped put toghether the SD.) Theosophical Quarterly, New York, > Vol. VII, October, 1910. Republished in Theosophia, Los > Angeles, Vol. XVI, No. 1, p.20. > > DTB Yes that is Keightley's way of expressing the matter. But > that does not make it correct. > Do you mean THEOSOPHY Vol 17 ? > -------------------------------------------------- > > You say she was not a "shell". Olcott & the Masters called her > that, but in > a colloquial way. There may not be a real good technical > description of what > she was. One of the Masters called the shell, "it and the brother > inside > it." Old Diary Leaves, Vol. 1, p.247. There are other instances, > but if you > read the book, you should find them. > > DTB understood, however the usual use of the word "SHELL" > implies (to me) that condition is of a non-self-conscious medium > usually in a trance. > > HPB as far as I can ascertain was an ADEPT and always was in > control. She "loaned" her body to other Adepts. But was not > unconscious of the event or of the use. I guess I am splitting > hairs, and regret annoying you. But it is always my practice to > be as explicit as possible in comminuting so as to avoid any such > time waste as this represents to both of us. > ---------------------------------------- > > > > One Technical term is "Tulku", but they say she was not exactly > that, but in > a situation similar to that. ODL, V.1, p. 243--246. Another > definition of > the term is on page 481 of BLAVATSKY COLLECTED WRITINGS, Vol. 1. > > DTB I am aware of both of these. > ------------------------------------------------ > > > Earlier in the last century, around 1918, the Communists killed > the Tzar and > his family. One of the daughters, not at the end of her Karma, > found the > body of a Polish girl, a few years older than her, who had tried > to commit > suicide, and the body was lying in a hospital bed, in a coma. > When this body > woke up, it had the memories of the Russian > Princess, -Anastasia-. People > who had known the Russian, said that the awakened girl had all > the memories > and mannerisms of Anastasia. DNA tests a few years ago proved > that she was > no physical relation to the Royal Families of Europe. > > DTB Theosophy offers the possibility that the body of the > unconscious person was left vacant and by some rule of Karma it > could be use by the intelligence of the princess. That is only a > guess, as it might mean that the "astral and personal nature did > not have to go through Devachan, but because it had some ancient > affinity for the personality of the now unconscious body of the > failed suicide, these two events permitted such a transfer. Did > the personality of the Polish girl ever surface again? Did > anyone maintain a study of the Polish girl to see if this now > "borrowed body" continued to be used by "Anastasia?" Or does > that fade away and no history was maintained ? It would be > interesting to see if there are any records of that aspect. Do > you know any more of that? > > I do not think of anything that happens "accidentally" as the > whole of Nature runs under very definite laws. to us it may seem > to be extraordinary, but there must be some logical reason for > events to occur -- even such a strange one as this. I am sure > you are aware of the case of Mr. Judge ? But that is even > stranger as reported. See LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME p. 249 ULT > Edition: IN A BORROWED BODY. > ------------------------ > > > > This was no doubt, an example of the Tulku process happening > accidently. > It happened again a few years earlier in England, when a little 4 > year old > girl named Dorothy Eady fell down stairs, went into a coma, and > when she > woke up in her own bed, demanded to be taken home. And, she > didn't mean > England. > > Jonathan Cott wrote a book about it, THE SEARCH FOR OMM SETY. > I'll bet that > he didn't set the type for it, or run the presses, or order the > thing done > by himself either. Published by Doubleday & Company, Garden > City, New York, > 1987, ISBN 0-385-23746-4. > > She found her home when they visited the British Museum, in the > Egyptian > section. She wanted to stay. She asked why things were all old > and broken, > since when she had gone to sleep, everything was new and and > painted. > > DTB I have know of several cases where the reincarnation of the > Ego into a child body (usually below the age of 7) may evoke a > memory of the past personal life. Usually this fades, but for > those who may not be aware of reincarnation the effect is > startling and often can evoke an attempt to "shush" the child. > -------------------------------------------- > > > > The point is that this happens in nature, and the Tibetan Lamas > have made > use of this human characteristic & ability, to mimic it when > projecting > their consciousness. They usually keep their own natural body, > and just > overwhelm, or overshadow the "shell" of the person they wish to > use. > Sometimes it is their students. > > DTB Also ISIS II 600-2 HPB illustrates this process. I am sure > that this is no "mimicry" it is an actuality and implies a > knowledge of psychology and a control of the pathways of the > Conscious Self of One's SELF and that of others. But also it is > clear that his exchange or control is only done when there is a > good Karmic reason for it. I also believe that Abbe Huc narrates > something along these lines in his travel book. I seem to recall > that. > --------------------------------------------- > > > > The masters had a problem with Karma. They looked long and hard > for a > "European Body" that they could send out to Europe & America to > teach their > beliefs, and to start their Society.They didn't want the Karma > associated > with taking over a living person who was not through with their > life, so > thay looked and waited. > > DTB I am aware of what they write on this , but your > interpretation seems to me to be yours and not theirs. Karma is > no "problem" to Them. The avoid making any "bad" karma. They > live under the same rules we do, but as they are aware of them > and their inflexibility, they avoid evoking them adversely. WE > seem to be interested in the phenomenal process and in performing > some unusual feat of control -- but the reason, the motive for > that is known only to ourselves, and could be quite selfish/ the > question is then, is it necessary? Does it help the rest of the > world? Is it an aspect of Brotherhood? > =============================== > > > > HPB had been associated with them before this incarnation, and > She had met > her "Adept" in London In (1851 if I recall correctly). > > DTB Yes she met her Master in the flesh in London in 1851 and > recorded it in her diary. But she also noted that it was a > meeting of the "Master of her dreams" as she had seen him before > in her mind's eye, or, as an astral vision when she was a younger > person. > ================================= > > > > She got involved in a war, and needed assistance. They threw the > body in a ditch since they > thought she was dead. Olcott said that she had shown him where > her arm had > been broken in two places, and a severe wound over the heart, and > another > one as well, from that battle. > > DTB That was when she was with Garibaldi at the battle of > Mentana, I believe. she was wounded several times and left for > dead, but they revived and returned. It ha also been hinted (but > I have not found a primary source for this) that at that time > there was a change of inner SELF and her body was perhaps > reanimated with ANOTHER CONSCIOUSNESS -- which we know of as > "HPB" -- and yet the personality retained all the memories of its > earlier years. But we simply are speculating here and are > arriving at no useful conclusion. > > I say let THEOSOPHY or, the presentation thereof be witness to > the WISDOM of the HPB who acted as Messenger of the Mahatmas and > our friend. > > I do not think we will be able to "explain" her Olcott tried and > offered many theories, but of what use? He did not profit very > well from the presentation of THEOSOPHY at least the ethics that > are part of the theory and metaphysics and are logically derived > from them -- did not attract his close attention as things to be > practised -- or the course of the T S once that HPB and WQJ her > dead would have been quite different. > ============================ > > > > Her Master re-animated her, and they formed a "club" to use her, > much in the > manner of a TULKU, except that one of them occupied the body all > the time. > They took turns. There were 7 Masters in the group. > > DTB THAT IS NEWS TO ME. I never read this and wonder if you > could direct me to the source of this statement. > ============================= > > > In the Collected Works, Vol.1, pp. 414--415, bottom of p. 414 > they note > "Narayan left watch-- and in came Sahib. (Master M) The latter > with orders > from Serapis to complete all by the first days of December. > > DTB I took note of this too, but "keeping watch" does not mean > that the body was INFORMED. It means that it was carefully > watched over. To read more into it is not the way I would go. > It is speculation. I do not find that being informed of this > helps me to lead a better or more spiritual life. How does it > help you ? > ===================================== > > > > In the MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P.SINNETT, letter # 45, he closes > with "I am called to > duty." p.246. What duty? -well, it is his turn to animate the > shell, and not let it die. (my conclusion, of course) > > DTB YES, I think it is yours, but then in those same letters in > other places the "other duties" are often referred to, and as far > as I can see they do not always focus on HPB. Usually they > indicate limits on the time that the Master can spend in > correspondence with Sinnett. > =================================== > > > > In OLD DIARY LEAVES, Vol. 1, p 289, 290, 291. concerning Olcott's > Technical > Term for the shell, "avesa" "To return to the matter of the > occupancy (avesa) of H.P.B.'s body. ... Let us say that the > Master A or B had been "on guard" an hour or more, had been > working on ISIS, alone or jointly with me, and was at a given > moment saying > something to me, or if third parties were present to one of them. > Suddenly > she (he?) stops speaking, rises and leaves the room, excusing > herself for a > moment on some pretext to strangers. She presently returns, looks > around as > any new arrival would upon entering a room where there was > company, makes > herself a fresh cigarette, and says something which has not the > least > reference to what had been talked about when whe left the room. > Some one > present, wishing to keep her to the point, asks her kindly to > explain. She > shows embarrassment and inability to pick up the thread;.... > says, "Oh yes: > excuse me," and goes on with her subject. She was sometimes as > quick as > lightning in these changes, and I myself, forgetting her > multiplex > personality, have often been irritated for her seeming inability > to keep to > the same subject.... > > On the same page, Olcott describes how the Master occupies the > body. > "entered and by slow degrees occupied the whole body of the dead > down to its > very feet." > > DTB I looked up those pages in my OLD DIARY LEAVES SERIES of 6 > volumes. Mine is the 2nd edition 1928 -- and the pagination > seems to be different. If you could let me have the CHAPTER > location. > > Olcott and others were interested in the phenomena and the > processes they could witness. I am interested in the PHILOSOPHY > and not those other things (of which I am aware) but as they have > nothing (or little) to do with the PHILOSOPHY, I relegate them to > the position of being interesting events --side issues -- and not > of any great importance (to me). > > I say to myself that the PHILOSOPHY OF THEOSOPHY will survive a > long time when these descriptions of how HPB did this or that are > long forgotten. > ===================================== > > > > This brings to mind the Hawaiian practice of the Kahunas sending > one of > their captive spirits (like you think HPB was when standing > beside her body > when a Master was inside) to attack & kill a victim. Max Freedom > Long, THE > SECRET SCIENCE BEHIND MIRACLES, & THE SECRET SCIENCE AT WORK. > They claim > that in the process of the attack, first the feet go numb, and > the numbness > creeps up the body, and when it reaches the heart region, the > victim dies. > > DTB Did you ever come across and read HPB's story CAN THE DOUBLE > MURDER? > 1876 -77 (Modern Panarion, p. 95). (see HPB LETTERS TO > A.P.Sinnett p. 151-3 on how this was written). HPB explains this > capacity of the astral body to be sent and directed. > > I do not think that numbing death that Freedom Long writes of is > a parallel case. As I recall Socrates describes it after he > drank the hemlock. But dying is not being in-formed, is it ? > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > The Masters are evidently using some similar capacity of the > human body when > they do their thing. > > DTB I am not sure what you imply by that. Seems to be very vague > and speculative to me. > =============================== > > > They also use this capacity when they wish to recognize a new > Dali Lama, or other reincarnational Lama, when they energize the > body of a baby, to see if it will recognize the tools and > possessions of the old Lama. > > > DTB I am also not sure that the Masters play any hand in such > things. To impute it to Them is quite speculative and may be > very inaccurate I think. Is this process not also illustrated in > ISIS II 598 ? > ---------------------------------------- > > > In Old Diary Leaves, Vol. 1, p 291, "I have noted above how > various Mahatmas, in writing to me about H.P.B. and her body, > spoke of the latter as a shell occupied by one of themselves." > > DTB Quite true, but might mean that the Conscious Entity we call > HPB is a Master, and He/she used that body . If that is the > case, that does not mean that HPB as the Adept using that body > was a non-entity, or incapable of self-will and self-direction. > Of course the whole thing turns into an argument and that is > again a waste of time and proves nothing as only HPB or one of > the Masters could settle the matter. And why should they waste > the time? > ======================================= > > > > > After her death (as far as I can see and read) he made some > > accusations that he had not dared utter to her while she was > > alive. He also showed his animosity to Mr. Judge in more ways > > than one and was instrumental in promoting the "Judge Case" > > beyond reasonable limits, especially as it had been terminated > in > > July 1894, and BROTHERHOOD was the prime Object of the > > Theosophical Society. > > As for BROTHERHOOD, I note very little of it in the Theosophical > Community, > what with 3 or more distinct organizations, locally, all claiming > to be the > One, True, and Original society. If there were true Brotherhood, > you would > think that they could all get together, stop fighting each other, > stop > wasting their members money duplicating each other's efforts, and > try to > extend Brotherhood to each other as well as the potential new > members. > > DTB I have no argument against that proposal. However persons > will be individuals and make up their own minds in their own way > (and bear the karmic consequences of that). To join one of the > TSes or another does not in any way help anyone. The only value > that I can detect is that one might be able to cross check one's > conclusions with others so as to make sure that they are more > accurate than what one might be able to arrive at alone. In such > mattes thee is no need to assume one is either superior or > inferior. since we are all "Immortal Pilgrims" our "age" is > probably quite uniform. But the areas in which we have made > ourselves proficient may differ. Also, although all men can look > into a Diamond through one facet or another, it does not change > the Diamond, only the views differ. > ==================================== > > > Olcott asked one of the Adepts, when they were together how > many > > different varieties of Adept there is, and the Master said 65. > > > > DTB Do you have the reference for this statement? I cannot > > recollect it. I would be obliged for your giving me the source > > for it. Where did the Master say "65 ?" > > Is there anything else given there in additional explanation? > > I would very much like to be able to see it. > > To myself I say: And why "65" and not "70 ?" > > I cannot recollect reading this in MAHATMA LETTERS, or some of > > the other sources that have reprinted Masters' letters. But > then > > I have not read everything either. > > I must confess that I made an error in quoting that number from > memory. The > number is "63". ODL, Vol.1 p278. > > DTB THANKS BUT I THINK YOU GOT THE WRONG PAGE, AS THERE IS > NOTHING ABOUT THAT THERE. So ? Maybe there was a change in > pagination ? What chapter ? It is also possible that my 2nd > edition has a different pagination than yours. what Chapter do > you read that in? > > ==================== ? ================= > > There is another quotation which points to there being more than > one type on > each level. Blavatsky: Collected Writings, Volume XIV, p. 435 , > These degrees are > "based (on) the seven and twelve degrees of the Hierarchy of > Adeptship..... > All these are men, and not disembodied Beings,..." > > DTB AGREED THAT THERE ARE ADEPTS AT VARIOUS LEVELS. I would > imagine that in an Infinite Universe with uncountable > "incarnations/manifestations, there are most probably many MONADS > which have attained far higher areas of responsibility than we > might imagine. Suffice it, then that we learn what lessons we > can from the position we are in at present. That would include, > I think the attitude of assistance which can be exchanged between > us all -- and in that we are all BROTHERS. > ----------------------------------------- > > > > And then there is another matter. As a shell, (Avesa, Tulku, > whatever name > you may wish to use) HPB did very slight phenomena before she got > the bullet > to the heart fighting for Garibaldi. After the Group of Seven > took over the > body, it could do all sorts of phenomena. It was the battery for > the > transfer of letters back and forth from and to the Masters. After > her death, > they quit sending letters, claiming that there was no more power. > > DTB NEAR THE HEART not TO THE HEART as I read it. also although > she was healed I have not read of there being a "GROUP OF SEVEN" > who took over the body. DO YOU HAVE A REFERENCE FOR THAT ? > > As to HPB's phenomena one need only refer to the accounts of her > family when as she a young woman returned to visit them and they > marveled at the quantity of "manifestations" all around her. so > saying they were "slight" seems hardly the right term, unless you > qualify it and add ("to my knowledge.") > =================================== > > > Collected Writings, Vol. XIII, p. 93, > "....It has never claimed to be the full exposition of the system > (it > advocates) in its totality; (a) because as the writer does not > boast of > being a great Initiate, she could, therefore, never have > undertaken such a > gigantic task; and (b) because had she been one, she would have > divulged > still less..." > > You and Mr. Judge say that she is an Adept. She says she was not. > Who shall > one believe? > > DTB Why not trust what she wrote? I mean the PHILOSOPHY ? Has > that been destroyed by these accounts and details? > > HPB did not say she was NOT an INITIATE. She said that she was > not a GREAT initiate. > > There is a difference, and we cannot rate that. Many have been > the speculations written after her death as to who or what the > Real HPB was -- even extending such ideas to including in them an > "incarnation of Tsong-kha-pa." > ======================================== > > > > I have seen plump individuals used as batteries for mediums at > many > churches. It is rather common, once you know what to look for. It > is obvious > that HPB had this capacity. > > DTB NOT TO ME AND I WOULD SAY THAT IS A PRESUMPTION. Something > that we cannot prove but only speculate about. HPB adopted a > very sedentary way of lie after she arrived in America so as to > write all that had to be done. Earlier she had been very active > and widely traveled. Frequently those who cease being active > develop fat -- but that is only an observation and not part of > any speculation on my part. She was said to have developed > several diseases which would have resulted in her premature death > and also prevented THE SECRET DOCTRINE from being issued. > Apparently ( as Countess Wachmeister) recorded, she was known, at > least once if not twice, to have refused death and continued > working and writing for THEOSOPHY and for the TS. > ================================== > > So, it is back to studying the material, and noting those things > that have > special meaning for me. It appears to me that your purpose in > studying > Theosophy, is to Study Theosophy. My purpose is to evolve closer > to the end > of the Adept state, and beyond. There is a lot of material to put > together, > and to make a pattern, and to put it into practice. Otherwise, > for me, it is > just an intellectual exercise for the purpose of doing the > exercise. > > DTB Each to his own. If you think you will do well with your > area and method, then good. > Yes I do study THEOSOPHY. The study of people and events may > also eventually lead to some conclusions, but if they are limited > to our present views, I am afraid that we will miss the larger > picture. > > If you want a valuable book to look over then borrow a copy of M. > Gomes THEOSOPHY IN THE 19TH CENTURY -- An Annotated Bibliography, > [1994 Garland Publishing New York & London] Looking through its > pages many aspects of Theosophical history and the nature and > work of HPB are made to stand out. There are 2057 entries there. > It would take years to go through all of them. > > Best wishes, > > Dallas > --------------------------------------- > > Dennis > > I left out lots of quotes. Hope no one minds. > > > > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- > theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting > of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. > > > -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com > > Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and > teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of > "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Fri Mar 3 04:08:19 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id EAA14132 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 04:00:12 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: <97.28d9401.25f0e57a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 04:52:58 EST Subject: Theos-World Re: About Venus To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 9 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/2/00 7:41:06 PM, compiler@wisdomworld.org writes: (referring to my explanation (in a previous post) of HPB's teachings that we go through seven rounds and races inward towards the Sun on all 7 planets, successively, until we reach Mercury, and thence onward to become "Solar Beings.") >Thanks for the interesting reply. No, this stuff is not easy. But I specifically >want to ask you if I remember correctly, that somewhere in the Teachings it is >said, using my own words here, of course, that the beings, or the humanity of >the planet Venus, are much more advanced than us and may be, if I remember >correctly, in their 7th Round, or at least in the 7th Race of some particular round, >further along than us. Do you recall this idea? And if so, where would it fit into >what you explained, in general, overall? (Maybe someone can come up with the actual quote or reference in the SD.) In any event, the way that I see it is based on the idea that everything in the universe happens "synchronistically"... Meaning, the past present and future are all in the ever present, universal NOW. Therefore, when the time comes for us to move to the planet Venus (after we are in our seventh round and seventh race on Earth) we will appear there as seventh race beings, who will be, at the start, in our first round and race on that planet. After we reach our seventh round and seventh race on Venus, we will then go to our final home on Mercury -- which brings us into our eighth stage as solar beings -- who can withstand the heat of the sun, but can never reach it -- as it says in the old hermetic maxim, "We can approach the fire but we can never touch the flame." At this stage we will be at the level of the Dhyan Chohans and Planetary Builders. Perhaps then, after seven rounds and races on Mercury we will finally be absorbed into the Solar consciousness. And, when the Sun goes Novae, (since cyclic evolution is infinite in scope) it will possibly spew our seed into the Galaxy to populate new planets on new suns closer inward towards the Central Sun. Also, since all this occurs synchronistically (as Jung described it in his Forward to the I Ching) we could say that we are already out there, NOW, going through all those planetary systems' rounds and races as highly advanced beings. However, this precludes the idea that we could ever contact these "extraterrestrial" entities, since they would exist in entirely different levels of multidimensional space (which is "infinitely divisible," according to HPBs' teachings as I remember it). (Perhaps someone can come up with the actual quote or reference.) However, while I dloubt we could ever communicate with them, they might be able to come "down" to us -- which may account for the elusive UFO's that everyone is talking about.:-) None of this is very easy to imagine. Since, our minds forced into "linear time," as well as three dimensional thinking (which only applies to this physical plane) are too limited to encompass the infinite possibilities of holistic multidimensionality, non-locality, and non-linearity -- that is the real nature of the entire Universe. However, all this may become perfectly obvious to us, intuitively, when we are in an altered state of pure spiritual consciousness (such as in the state of Samadhi reached by the Adept in deep meditation.) and can place our zero-point center of awareness in the zero-point center of the ONE universal Self -- who is all wise and all knowing. So, HPB was correct when she said that Venus has us NOW there (synchronistically) as seventh racers... (i.e., in that state of evolution we will be in after our seventh round and seventh race on Earth.) Therefore. it should be intuitively obvious, from a synthesis of all of HPB's teachings, that there is only one Humanity, split on seven rays, in this solar system... And that we go through seven rounds and races on each of the seven mystic planets until we collectively arrive at the consciousness level of the Solar Demiurge or Solar God. (This is as far advanced as can be theosophically determined from the teachings in the Book of Dzyan and its commentaries.) After that, who knows? As students, we can only speculate, and come to no meaningful conclusions. Therefore, as the teachers advise, don't think about it too much.:-) We have enough to do to be able to reach and understand our own present racial cycles on the present Globe. As WQJ pointed out, the Atma or "Spirit in man" that we are trying to reach as human beings on this Earth, "is NOT the Supreme Spirit." It follows, that we go to Brahm, Brahm goes to Prarabrahm, and Parabrahm goes to Paraparabrahm... And, from there? It's anyone's guess. Hope this adds further clarification to my earlier post. LHM -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Fri Mar 3 07:58:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id HAA04040 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 07:58:24 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: RE: Theos-World Dallas' and Dennis' references to various historical documents on HPB Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 05:51:12 -0800 Message-ID: <000a01bf8517$895bcca0$420e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <001c01bf84d3$1f983d60$1706c5a9@azstarnet.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dear Dan: I have been revisiting Gomes "Annotated Bibliography of Theos Lit of the 19th Cent." There are many listed there, about 2060 -- but you seem to have even more -- some I guess are in the 20t Cent. Also I note that he will group several items (usually letters) under one entry. Is Gomes list pretty complete? Dal Dallas dalval@nwc.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com [mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of D.Caldwell/M.Graye Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 9:41 PM To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Theos-World Dallas' and Dennis' references to various historical documents on HPB Dallas and Dennis: thanks for your references to various primary sources on HPB, ie., HPB's letters to her relatives, the Keightley article, etc. etc. I would like to remind everyone that many of these sources have been reprinted on the Web at the Blavatsky Archives Online. And we have several hundred more documents being processed for publication by this spring. Our intent is to eventually publish some 3, 500 items dealing with H.P. Blavatsky's life, work, writings and teachings. Visit our web site at: http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/index.htm Click on the "Archives". Daniel H. Caldwell BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES ONLINE blafoun@azstarnet.com Also if you have suggestions regarding what should be reprinted or if you have access to material that you think is important and should be more widely disseminated, please let us know about this material. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Fri Mar 3 13:07:23 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id MAA18604 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 12:53:59 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <004001bf854a$60688580$a009c5a9@azstarnet.com> From: "D.Caldwell/M.Graye" To: "Caldwell, Daniel H." Subject: Theos-World Announcing the reprint of an important rare document on Madame Blavatsky and the Mahatmas Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:54:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Blavatsky Archives Online. http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/index.htm Announcing the reprint of an important rare document on Madame Blavatsky and the Mahatmas. I've just added to the archives the following item: First Report of the Committee of the Society for Psychical Research, Appointed to Investigate the Evidence for Marvellous Phenomena offered by Certain Members of the Theosophical Society It is reprinted from the rare 1884 edition consisting of 130 pages of text. This online edition can be found at: http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/blavatsky-archives.htm Look in the section titled "New Items Recently Added." This is NOT the "Hodgson Report" which was the second or final report on Madame Blavatsky issued by the Society for Psychical Research, London. A valuable preface written by Leslie Price has been added to this online edition. The rarity of this "First Report" is mentioned by Mr. Price in his Preface: "The report which is here made available was private and confidential to SPR members, and in our time has never been read except by a handful of psychical researchers and historians of Theosophy. Copies were on the shelf in the SPR library, London and in one or two other archives, but students generally overlooked it. Its republication is therefore a signal service." Daniel H. Caldwell Blavatsky Archives Online. http://sites.netscape.net/dhcblainfo/index.htm -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Fri Mar 3 18:45:10 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA28735 for theos-talk-outgoing; Fri, 3 Mar 2000 18:24:51 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000501bf856f$3ce26fc0$eb98b2d1@denniski> From: "Dennis Kier" To: Subject: Theos-World Black screens Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 15:38:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF845D.5FA161A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF845D.5FA161A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am getting messages in this list from Barrett Culmback, which, when I = select them, are displaying only a black screen. At first I thought it was a joke, but that is what I get every time I = look at one from him. Is there something I can do here to view the = message, if there is a message? ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF845D.5FA161A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am getting messages in this list from = Barrett=20 Culmback, which, when I select them, are displaying only = a black=20 screen.
 
At first I thought it was a joke, = but that is=20 what I get every time I look at one from him. Is there something I can = do here=20 to view the message, if there is a message?
------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF845D.5FA161A0-- -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Mar 4 04:46:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id EAA28160 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 04:43:38 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38C0E728.2C07998A@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 23:36:25 +1300 From: Charles Sitwell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Black screens References: <000501bf856f$3ce26fc0$eb98b2d1@denniski> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dennis Kier wrote: > I am getting messages in this list from Barrett Culmback, which, when > I select them, are displaying only a black screen. At first I thought > it was a joke, but that is what I get every time I look at one from > him. Is there something I can do here to view the message, if there is > a message? If you "highlight" them you can read the message. (Sorry if this "Teaching grandmother to suck eggs :-) but I Mean click at start hold down "Shift" key and click at end, then all is light regards. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Mar 4 07:29:41 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id HAA05024 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 07:22:32 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: Subject: Theos-World DTB = Carl, Re: Is Theosophy "Syncretic"? Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 05:14:59 -0800 Message-ID: <000201bf85db$a7a1e400$2c0e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com March 4th 2000 Dallas offers: Dear Friends: Might I interject a short observation? Is Theosophy also History ? Theosophy ought to be thought of as HISTORY. It deals with the past in terms of presenting to us the observations of events from an immense past. From a "past" that is ours. Examples: It deals with the formation of the Worlds, Galaxies and Universes as a pattern, a plan and this includes the LAWS and/or processes. Implicit in this vast Plan are Nature's (the WHOLE) periodical emanations from the non-manifest into manifestation, and back again into the rest and non-manifestation of a Maha-Pralaya. This is not "annihilation," as every manifestation adds to the accumulating experience of all Monads active in this. The "Monads" are deemed to be the basic "units" of the eternally contrasting SPIRIT/MATTER [Atma/Buddhi] . They return into manifestation and evolution with every re-awakening of the Universes and the Worlds. Thus described, we see : Space, Area, Time, Cause, Planes and levels of Consciousness, and those Agencies whose intelligent assistance (the Agents being named: "Builders, Ah-hi, Buddhas, Rishis, Mahatmas, etc...") and active guidance is needed to actually re-create and then to sustain all aspects of an evolution in all its vast detail. [ If the atoms (or rather 'quarks'?) are the building blocks of Nature and "matter," then the laws that guide them into the formation of larger structures that are able to interact on more complex levels, are implied -- as to intelligence, purpose, and actuality. We, each of us, are a living part of this constantly developing History. >From Kosmology and Cosmogenesis, Theosophical History moves to the description of the many and intricate stages of the development of humanity (Anthropogensis), and explains legend and mythology as well as theogony to be the events that embrace and describe by analogy our own Past -- we were that Past, as individuals living then, as part of the humanity of those eras. In doing this, it discusses and exposes aspects of the great Laws that govern all departments of ITSELF. We are a living part of this great LIFE. We seek, even unconsciously to learn more of the "causes" and the details of this collaboration. We sense that if we secure these, we may be better able to more accurately choose, and optimize our future The reason and cause of this vast scheme is that the immortal Monads (you and me and all the rest of Evolution) have to pass through all levels and ranges of experience in order to emerge (by their own self-induced efforts) into the ranks of the "Agents." These are "Wise agents." We/they assist each other in their own way and place, and serve to guide "evolution" in its many works. This work is eternally ours as, in the past, we moved through the centuries and millennia of the past (as History) and now, face the future, which we will be devising in confluence with others. These Agents are called the Great Souls (Mahatmas) -- of many degrees -- and Mankind as a class, generally, represents the "mind-stage" of this great process of "becoming." All the great Agents, Adepts, Mahatmas, Buddhas, have passed through the "human-mind" stage, a stage that we are now in and which Nature is guiding us through under the Law of Karma. We all seek to "graduate" into the next higher level. Theosophy affords a view of the structure of evolution, and it assures us that all our efforts remain in our control and are available to us as acquired talents and genius, and as memories in assistance of our own (and humanity's) future. The history of humankind therefore, is not only a matter of time, civilization and events (in which we have participated as Immortal reincarnating Monads), but marks the many areas and disciplines inherent in Nature that are necessary to provide an integrated and cooperative basis for all beings (Monads) to live and work in, in harmony with each other. Karma is a general term embracing a vast number of intelligent units (Monads as "life-atoms") that have to work with one-another so that they may all develop as they work, individually. This is generally expressed as Universal Brotherhood. It introduces us, intellectually, to an understanding of what Universal and Impersonal ETHICS means -- A paying of due regard to the rights and duties of other Monads, which not only assist in our "vestures" (principles), but are themselves immortal entities that are undergoing development in, through and around US. WE are serving them and THEY are serving us. It is Unity in diversity, everywhere and all the time. If we observe the work of scientists, philosophers, psychologists, and humanity in general we will see the process of learning proceeding constantly. We, "they," all intelligent beings, regardless of the level of mental intelligence, live in and are constantly studying some aspect of Nature. But we note that any one aspect of Nature involves others, until the "hologram" of interlocking laws, actions, causes and effects, become clear to our inquiring individual Minds. We can departmentalize our specialties, but we cannot exclude the fact of cooperation from those specific details that we are presently selecting for more intense consideration. Whether one is a mathematician, chemist, physicist, astronomer, engineer, sociologist, psychologist, philosopher, or "just a home-body," one cannot isolate oneself from any of the many aspects of conjoint living in our position in this constantly moving, changing and law-abiding Universe. Theosophy taken as a whole appears to me to provide the outline of an intelligent scheme that suits the evolution of an enormous mass of intelligent immortals -- the MONADS. We, as humans mark a specific level of this development. We have become endowed, each one of us, with an independent MIND. This Mind, as a faculty, enables us to sense our Unity and uniqueness, our "past" as history, and our future as "what we will decide on as a goal for ourselves to achieve." In doing this we observe that "WE" are not the Mind, but it is a "tool" that we guide and control. Our feelings and emotions are likewise controllable and under constant observation -- as they impact on us all the time. Taking the two together, Theosophy uses the appellation of Kama-Manas to describe our average daily level of consciousness. All decisions we make and acts we perform start at this level. Theosophy expresses this situation as: "Our consciousness is ONE and not many, nor different consciousnesses. The ONE CONSCIOUSNESS of each person is the WITNESS or SPECTATOR of the actions and experiences of every state we are in or pass through, such as sleep, dreams, waking, etc... The ONE CONSCIOUSNESS pierces up and down through all the states or planes of Being (experience), and serves to uphold the memory--whether conscious or unconscious--of each state's experiences. The "Path" to individual success (perfection of our humanity) has to be commenced. It is done by a wholly voluntary effort. Such effort is thereafter entirely self-sustained and self-monitored. The ascent to "adeptship" or "Mahatmaship" is said to begin, as a first step, with an abandoning of errors, the giving up of selfishness and personal habits that obscure and delay ones' view of and work towards that GOAL. It is expressed mystically, as "becoming one with the Spirit." The second step is joining the company of those who desire to attain to PERFECTION as we do. It becomes a cooperative effort, listening, considering, and practicing the highest altruism one is able to envisage and aspire to. It is that which is implied in BROTHERHOOD -- a brotherhood of immortals in which each works for the rest, and all the rest work for each individual. The third step is sustaining and reinforcing this practice, developing confidence in what one learns, and persisting in its attentive and all-consuming practical continuance as one meets his or her daily duties and responsibilities in life. Whoever does this, lays a sure foundation for ascent to adeptship, or CONSCIOUS IMMORTALITY. This is what mystics call a "peak" experience, where "the whole Universe grows I," and, we see that we are an ineradicable and an essential, immortal part of the vast WHOLE. I hope these ideas may prove to be of use. It makes of our immortality a matter which we can depend on and use practically. It is the basis of a positive and wholesome change in our attitudes and ways of living. It gives an insight into the essentiality of all things and situations. Karma and reincarnation are seen to be two of these essential concepts. They are actually working in and through every one, and form the basic operations of all individual and collective (monadic) living at every level. This is offered in the hope of evoking further consideration of these great and wonderful laws -- laws that work complexly in all aspects of manifestation and evolution -- yet most simple in concept. As the great Hillel once said: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. All the rest is commentary." Dallas dalval@nwc.net ====================================== -----Original Message----- From: C----l Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 8:51 PM Subject: Re: Is Theosophy "Syncretic"? Dear --------, As I am sure you know, I oppose the notion that Theosophy is a synthesis, and yet, as it has been pointed out to me on more than one occasion, HPB speaks of The Secret Doctrine as "The Synthesis of Science, Religion, and Philosophy" - and this on the title page of her book! I believe that it is important to address this claim that would reduce the writings of Blavatsky to an assortment of ideas pieced together in some unique way that came to be called Theosophy due to the new structuring of earlier works. According to this charge, HPB was little more than a compiler of data already available - though scattered about. >From what you wrote, it is obvious that the syncretic view does not account for the Theosophical perspective that HPB made available, nor does it follow from a close reading of The Secret Doctrine. Thus, to account for the use of the word "synthesis," we need to consider the word within the context of the writing itself and how that context might explain the usage of the word. For those not familiar with the study of semantics, one definition, and that being the most common one, will often suffice. In this case, however, we know that is not true. Synthesis is usually defined as the putting together of parts to form a whole, but actually the possibilities are not exhausted in this one meaning. In philosophy, synthesis is the process of deductive reasoning, from the simple elements of thought into the complex whole, from cause to effect, from a principle to its application. Certainly, this is the definition that best describes the works of HPB. Perhaps, more important, we should consider that synthesis is opposed to or set over against analysis. An analysis is the examining of a substance by breaking it up into its constituent parts. Consider now the phrase: "The Synthesis of Science, Religion, and Philosophy." If I analyse them, I address the parts, but was it not Blavatsky's aim to address the whole (the synthesis) - not the fragment? In so doing, she moved from the simple elements of thought that were foundational and definitive to Science, Religion, and Philosophy into the complex whole which she termed Theosophy. I believe this to be the synthesis referred to in The Secret Doctrine - and not the congealed debris of the ages. Carl -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Mar 4 08:31:54 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id IAA10384 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 08:27:59 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" To: "Theosophy Study List" Subject: Theos-World RE: ATMA / ANATMA March 03, 2000 Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 06:16:50 -0800 Message-ID: <000501bf85e4$49396880$2c0e75ce@nwc.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Dallas offers: If anyone can conceive of a negative THEN THE POSITIVE IS AT THE CONTRASTING "OTHER END." However, to be able to conceive of ONE SIDE of an equation, implies that the CONCEIVER -- the THINKER is apart (DETACHED) from the problem and is able to LOOK AT IT. If one is to consider ANATMA or "non-spirit" then that which does the considering is not limited or bound by the concept. It is ABLE TO CONSIDER it as an IDEA. Is it right or wrong? What can be done with it? How does it fit into known experience? Is it logical? Why is it introduced or being considered? etc... On this basis the concept is inferior to the entity that is doing the CONSIDERING, or am I wrong? Example: We are currently living in the multi-contrast area of "evolution." When this comes to an end "NON-MANIFESTATION" [PRALAYA or MAHA-PRALAYA] sets in. All contrasts end. But Theosophy teaches this is not ANNIHILATION. The IMMORTAL MONADS, each carry with them into this resting period the entire memory of all that they have experienced. (Similar to the after-death-states during Manifested stages of living.) And in any case, from the Universal point of view, these memories are impacted in the imperishable AKASA. All the memories of the work done during the active state are carried into the inactive state and there preserved until the new MANIFESTATION begins. Then, under KARMA they re-emerge in due time. If one desires to give a Negative connotation to "spirit out of manifestation" it might be called anatma. But that does not imply the total eradication of SPIRIT IN MANIFESTATION, only a change of state or condition -- and that is within the limits of DURATION -- as such it would be only a limited period of time -- a Kalpa or a Manvantara. I may be wrong in expressing this, but I think the logic is sound Dallas dalval@nwc.net ============================== -----Original Message----- From: Mark Kusek [mailto:mark@withoutwalls.com] Sent: Friday, March 03, 2000 9:38 PM To: Theosophy Study List Subject: Re: theos-l digest: March 03, 2000 This question is particularly addressed to Jerry Schueler, but anyone can chime in : Granted the conclusion reached by Buddhists of the Emptiness of Self (re: the doctrine of an-atma) and the ultimate reality of void-nature (i.e. the emptiness of Emptiness, as you say) ... do they also hold that such a thing as Atma (Supreme Universal and/or Supreme Individual Selfhood; even to the archetypal core of the embodied personal human ego - a la Jung) exists conventionally (as an aggregate or whatever), while still being ultimately or absolutely void? If so then, could the duration of that conventional (seeming) existent "being" be said to be the length of a manvantara, and thus put into perspective the place of Theosophical teachings vis a vis this an-atma realization of Buddhism? I've never heard you actually come out and say this, although I've been following your recent discussions with Dallas with some interest. If I am not entirely off base here, might that not reconcile your two points of view? (although perhaps giving some the awareness of a potential they might not be comfortable with?) Regards to all, -- Mark ---------------------------------------- Without Walls:An Internet Art Space email: mark@withoutwalls.com www.withoutwalls.com --- You are currently subscribed to theos-l as: DALVAL@NWC.NET List URL - http://list.vnet.net/?enter=theos-l To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-theos-l-539B@list.vnet.net -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Mar 4 10:50:35 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id KAA22829 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:47:36 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhR//Jqvi09j8LjyG0bwfA3kAD3vvgIVALta2zcfqLwnABOa6y0mGmt84pgz From: theo73@webtv.net (dorothy lord) Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 08:40:59 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Black screens Message-ID: <24165-38C13C9B-2250@storefull-174.iap.bryant.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Charles Sitwell 's message of Sat, 04 Mar 2000 23:36:25 +1300 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Charles Never mind - sucking eggs- Why cant you send a normal message?? -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Mar 4 12:20:57 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id MAA30717 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 12:11:34 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: THEMAZEMAN@aol.com Message-ID: <9f.2889278.25f2aa25@aol.com> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 13:04:21 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Black screens To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 68 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > I am getting messages ... displaying only a black screen. > Is there something I can do here to view the message ... On my system, I can click, inside the black message area, with my right mouse button, then click CLEAR BACKGROUND, but that may not work on all systems. It's also good for those annoying backgrounds which are probably a pretty color on the sender's system, but which are a dotted color on my system. Another option is to click at the beginning of the message and drag to the end of the message. If you can't read it by this point, you can click EDIT and COPY, then paste it into WINDOWS NOTEPAD (START - PROGRAMS - ACCESSORIES - NOTEPAD) which should give you just the text (and some garbage to ignore). John www.MAZES.com www.MAZES.com/free/stuff -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sat Mar 4 23:50:50 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id XAA05429 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sat, 4 Mar 2000 23:26:00 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f From: LeonMaurer@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:18:48 EST Subject: Re: Theos-World Black screens To: theos-talk@theosophy.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com In a message dated 3/3/0 7:39:49 PM, dennw3k@earthlink.net writes: >I am getting messages in this list from Barrett Culmback, which, when I >select them, are displaying only a black screen. > >At first I thought it was a joke, but that is what I get every time I look >at one from him. Is there something I can do here to view the message, >if there is a message? Highlight all the text and hit "Reply". The text should appear in the reply message in normal typeface. -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Mar 5 14:05:24 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id OAA03708 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 14:01:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <38C2BB74.F705FE1C@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 08:54:28 +1300 From: Charles Sitwell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Black screens References: <24165-38C13C9B-2250@storefull-174.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com dorothy lord wrote: > Charles > Never mind - sucking eggs- > Why cant you send a normal message?? > > I'm not sure what you mean by "normal" in this context. I was only trying to *not* be patronizing (by using a little humor), but also offer a practical help if it was needed. Is this abnormal?? Cheers -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Sun Mar 5 18:13:20 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA25763 for theos-talk-outgoing; Sun, 5 Mar 2000 18:05:41 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAoYsVxMs0aqnvRLh/GTMnrYAC0XECFEIT1HMLwMsawGQCL9hmb/fEDl+8 From: theo73@webtv.net (dorothy lord) Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 15:59:06 -0800 (PST) To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Subject: Re: Theos-World Black screens Message-ID: <8148-38C2F4CA-7726@storefull-173.iap.bryant.webtv.net> In-Reply-To: Charles Sitwell 's message of Mon, 06 Mar 2000 08:54:28 +1300 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com Charles In this case - normal is whats easy fpr everyone Just open the mail & read it. Your way is distracting minds from other important iissues - un-nessesarily Just a comment - nothing personal besides I cant retreive it . Have webtv Dorothy -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Mar 6 18:43:49 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA32360 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:38:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000301bf87cc$9d0398c0$26a2b2d1@denniski> From: "Dennis Kier" To: References: <000f01bf84bb$6f7a4ca0$1f0e75ce@nwc.net> <000d01bf84d0$f3033180$1706c5a9@azstarnet.com> Subject: Re: Theos-World a "GROUP OF SEVEN" who took over the body Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:29:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: D.Caldwell/M.Graye To: Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 9:25 PM Subject: Theos-World a "GROUP OF SEVEN" who took over the body > Dallas writes to Dennis: > > "I have not read of there being a "GROUP OF SEVEN" > who took over the body. DO YOU HAVE A REFERENCE FOR THAT ?" > > Yes, I too would like see what references there are to > a group of seven Adepts or Masters who took over the HPB body. > Hi Daniel!: I have quoted it and sent it in, so it should appear on the list, so I won't bother to type it in again. It looks like no ever reads Olcott's memoirs, OLD DIARY LEAVES. The quote is in Old Diary Leaves, Vol.1, Chapter 5, "Spiritualism", on pages 75 & 76 in my edition. It is about 3/4 way through the chapter. HPB & HSO had met the editor of a spiritualist paper that they wanted to support. HSO wrote a 1 page "circular", had it printed and checked with HPB whether he should sign his name, or what would she prefer. She said that the Masters wanted it signed, "For the Committee of Seven, Brotherhood of Luxor", She also told him that their work was supervised by seven adepts. The whole quote should be in the list shortly, if you don't have the book. Dennis -- THEOSOPHY WORLD -- Theosophical Talk -- theos-talk@theosophy.com Letters to the Editor, and discussion of theosophical ideas and teachings. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message consisting of "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to theos-talk-request@theosophy.com. From owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com Mon Mar 6 18:44:07 2000 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by pippin.imagiware.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) id SAA32350 for theos-talk-outgoing; Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:38:04 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: pippin.imagiware.com: majordom set sender to owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com using -f Message-ID: <000201bf87cc$9a08a840$26a2b2d1@denniski> From: "Dennis Kier" To: References: <000f01bf84bb$6f7a4ca0$1f0e75ce@nwc.net> <000b01bf84c9$ba39b420$b3b57ed8@computer> Subject: Re: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND MASTERS Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 11:49:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com Reply-To: theos-talk@theosophy.com > From: "W. Dallas TenBroeck" > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 6:51 PM > Subject: RE: Theos-World RE: RE: DTB = D on HPB'S WORK AND MASTERS I have noticed that if I read a book and put it aside for years, and then pick it up again, lots of times I have forgotten much of what is in it, and the experience that I get, and the reading that I do gives me a lot of information. When I go back to it, many times in re-reading the original book, I find a lot that I didn't remember from the first time, and lots of the material fits in like a pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, and means a lot more the second or third time around. Then there are new books and magazines coming out all the time, and sometimes I just put the old books on the shelf, just trying to keep up with the new stuff. Perhaps that is what is going on here. > > DTB understood, however the usual use of the word "SHELL" > > implies (to me) that condition is of a non-self-conscious medium > > usually in a trance. Terminology, and intrepetation, I suppose. > > HPB as far as I can ascertain was an ADEPT and always was in > > control. She "loaned" her body to other Adepts. But was not > > unconscious of the event or of the use. I guess I am splitting > > hairs, and regret annoying you. But it is always my practice to > > be as explicit as possible in comminuting so as to avoid any such > > time waste as this represents to both of us. > > ---------------------------------------- > Earlier in the last century, around 1918, the Communists killed > > the Tzar and > > his family. One of the daughters, not at the end of her Karma, > > found the > > body of a Polish girl, a few years older than her, who had tried > > to commit > > suicide, and the body was lying in a hospital bed, in a coma. > > When this body > > woke up, it had the memories of the Russian > > Princess, -Anastasia-. People > > who had known the Russian, said that the awakened girl had all > > the memories > > and mannerisms of Anastasia. DNA tests a few years ago proved > > that she was > > no physical relation to the Royal Families of Europe. > > > > DTB Theosophy offers the possibility that the body of the > > unconscious person was left vacant and by some rule of Karma it > > could be use by the intelligence of the princess. That is only a > > guess, as it might mean that the "astral and personal nature did > > not have to go through Devachan, but because it had some ancient > > affinity for the personality of the now unconscious body of the > > failed suicide, these two events permitted such a transfer. Did > > the personality of the Polish girl ever surface again? Did > > anyone maintain a study of the Polish girl to see if this now > > "borrowed body" continued to be used by "Anastasia?" Or does > > that fade away and no history was maintained ? It would be > > interesting to see if there are any records of that aspect. Do > > you know any more of that? The end was only in the last couple of years. I would have thought that you would recall that, but I guess that if you had no interest in these kinds of things, you would not follow it. The woman maintained the identity of the Russian girl to the end of her life. When DNA blood typing became available, scientists took blood from Anastasia, her polish relatives, and the royal family of England, since Queen Victoria of England was a blood relative of the Russian royal family. They compared all the DNA evidence, and found that there was no possibility that the physical body was in any way related to the English and Russian royal families. The memories of the Polish girl never reappeared, and the Russian memories were maintained till the death of the body. There have been books, magazine articles, one or more Movies, and TV programs on that theme. I don't have any of them, and don't think any of them mentioned the Tulku phenomena, which seems to happen in nature from time to time, but is labeled as something else, if it is commented on at all. There has been some comment about someone having an accident, or getting sick and going into a coma, and when they wake up, not knowing relatives, and having to learn about relationships all over, and having a decidedly different life goals, personal psychology and moods. These are usually taken to be just a result of the sickness or accident, and the new personality inside usually has sense enough to not mention the impossible memories, if they remember them at all. > > I do not think of anything that happens "accidentally" as the > > whole of Nature runs under very definite laws. to us it may seem > > to be extraordinary, but there must be some logical reason for > > events to occur -- even such a strange one as this. I am sure > > you are aware of the case of Mr. Judge ? But that is even > > stranger as reported. See LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME p. 249 > > ULT Edition: IN A BORROWED BODY. No, I was not aware of something with Mr. Judge. I did notice what seemed to me a definite change of personality from the time he was working with HPB, and later when he had a difference with Mr. Olcott, but I didn't attach any significance to it till I saw your comment above. It had caused me to wonder if he had had a nervous breakdown, or something associated with the illness that took his life, -he seemed too young to die--. I just got the Sunrise issues of his life, HPB, and Ms. Tingley. In looking through them, I noticed some pictures of WQJ, and in some of them he seems to be assured of himself, and in command, in others he seems to have a rather haunted look in his expression, and perhaps hunched over a bit. Of course, I have a slight spinal deformity, and am a little hunched over too. Perhaps some of the photos were taken after his illness, or whatever it is you were referring to. I will pay closer attention to that issue when I read it. I take it then, that this is detailed in LETTERS THAT HAVE HELPED ME? > > Her Master re-animated her, and they formed a "club" to use her, > > much in the > > manner of a TULKU, except that one of them occupied the body all > > the time. > > They took turns. There were 7 Masters in the group. > > > > DTB THAT IS NEWS TO ME. I never read this and wonder if you > > could direct me to the source of this statement. > > ============================= As I mentioned at the beginning of this (above), sometimes I have books on the shelves for years, and forget what I read years ago. I sort of get the sense that you have some animosity toward Mr. Olcott, and so don't read his material all that much, after the initial reading. Look in OLD DIARY LEAVES, Vol. 1, Chapter 5, SPIRITUALISM. In my copy Chapter 5 starts on page 66, and ends on page 81. On page 72, they meet a Mr. E. Gerry Brown. On page 74, Olcott writes: "I wrote every word of this circular myself, alone correcting t