Re: theos-talk Re: off topic about lama dorge
Jan 24, 2012 02:24 PM
by M. Sufilight
My views are:
Among the Sufis the following romour seem to be solid in various respects...
The well-known Sufi named Idries Shah (d. 1996) said that Gurdjieff (d. 1949) knew about the ABJD scheme in writing - using ciphers - and that Ouspensky did not know it and molested the writings of Gurdjieff.
And that Gurdjieff only knew ABJD on a lower level of the inner teachings.I cannot help getting the feeling that Idries Shah are right. And there are indications on this. Idries Shah mentiones an esoteric group existed about 40 kilometers north of Kabul in Afghanistan. Idries Shah was born in Afghanistan and arrived in England later. His father was a high-rank diplomat and advisor.
The following might be knew to some readers...
>>> Gurdjieff's Search <<<
Dissatisfied with the answers of contemporary religion and science, Gurdjieff intuited
that the wisdom societies of ancient civilizations held the real key to his question.
And so with a group of like-minded friends who called themselves the Seekers of Truth,
he made many journeys into remote and dangerous areas with the aim of rediscovering this
ancient knowledge. "
"In the ruins of Ani, the ancient Armenian capital, Gurdjieff and his friends discovered
correspondence that spoke of an esoteric brotherhood called Sarmoung. The brotherhood had
existed in Babylon in 2,500 B.C., and subsequently migrated northward to the Izrumim Valley.
Some believe the Sarmoung to have been a sixth or seventh century Aisorian school located
between Urmia and Kurdistan. There is also in Tibet a group of monasteries known as Surmang.
The tenth Trungpa Tulku, their supreme abbot, died in 1938. Tibetans believe he reincarnated
as Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, the eleventh Trungpa Tulku, who came to America in 1970 and often
spoke of Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff certainly did travel to Tibet and speaks about his experiences
there. See Voices in the Dark."
"Gurdjieff realized that elements of this teaching over time had dispersed northward into Babylon, the
Hindu Kush, Tibet, Siberia and the Gobi desert. He set out on a second journey to re-collect them.
See the documentary video Gurdjieff in Egypt. "
(Kagyu - related monasteries. "The lineage held therein, known as the Surmang Kagyu, is a subschool
of the Karma Kagyu yet it includes a unique synthesis of Nyingma teachings." --- And let me add ---- the area are related to the early culture of Majiayao culture - dated by science to 3,200-2,700 BCE. (The same period as the Sumerian in Mesopotamia and the early Harappa culture - in what was called Western India in the old days). - And the area with these monasteries are related to the Kayue culture 900-600 BCE (with old GOLD artifacts) - related to the earlier Siwa culture. And Kanyue are related to the Qiang people (ie. "ancient people") who later moved into Sichuan Province - and - according to some historians carried with them the their strange Ideographic and eblematic language - by the way the only one in use today - however in a changed version compared to past centuries. - And petroglyphs are found on various Rocks and in caves in Tibet at many a place and also in the Pamir mountains. Some have in the last decades been destroyed due to road-plannning and wetern-like so-called "modernisations" seeking well-fare by the use of roads and electricity - claimed faster transpirt and communication etc. etc.)
About Master Morya and Khutumi:
Where was the "Ravine in Tibet"?
(In the old days - the area of Kashmir and north thereof was called Tibet or little Tibet. And this can also be seen on maps from the 19th century. So - according to this link to Caldwells's website with quotes etc. etc. ---- the two Masters lived for a time just north of the ancient Kashmir-Ladakh border and a few kilometers away from the Indus River, (also based on other accounts). - In present day Pakistan it seems...The place should not be that hard to find, if travelling in the area...I had - a dream - more than 5 years ago where I was at the actual place shown on the "colored sketch on China silk" - (with Morya on his horse just left of the first tree ) - and saw that there now was a road leading to it - so driving in car is possible. The place has changed - and the Buddhist Temple was also changed as far as the dream goes. The bridge is a new one now - but there should still be a bridge at the place or at least traces of it....But I have not verified the dream...Maybe others have something to add......)
I found the following maps - and - there are no doubt more to be found:
--- Map India 1875 - http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~poyntz/India/images/India1875.jpg (Left-click the map and enlarge.)
--- Map India 1857 - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fa/IGI1908India1857b.jpg (Left-click the map and enlarge.)
--- Map India 1857 (with small regions in Kashmir) - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f6/NorthWesternProvincesIndia1857.jpg ( Left-click the map and enlarge.)
--- Map India 1880 - http://satyameva-jayate.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/British-India-1880.jpg
--- Map India 1893 - http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~poyntz/India/images/SectionMapsKey.jpg ( Left-click the map and enlarge.)
--- Map India 1893 - Kashmir - http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~poyntz/India/images/ChineseTurkistanKashmir&Jamu.jpg
--- Map India 1909 - (Larger version with Chitral in Palistan included -year 1909 -- http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F2aqoc7ZKBU/TpWAuM31QkI/AAAAAAAAAU8/_aUHUKhDBuM/s1600/political+divisions+of+British+Indian+Empire+1909+Imperial+Gazetteer+of+India.jpg )
--- Map of India 1804 --- (Notice that the Himalaya's are here given south of Indus River and with Srinagar city inside them.) - http://www.emersonkent.com/images/india_1804.jpg (Left-click the map and enlarge.)
--- Map India + Afghanistan 1912 --- (with Turkestan north of Kashmir - called Little Tibet - and north of Tibet - a place with many archaeological discoveries. Peshawar near Taxila was a part of India in those days.It was there Aryasanga was born - he who knew about the Dzyan Stanzas according to Blavatsky.) - http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ward_1912/india_west_frontier.jpg ( Left-click the map and enlarge.)
And Gurdijeff travelles at lot before the year 1912.
The use of names and the geographical location of the Himalaya's, Kashmir, Tibet and India in those days and the borders of India in those days are worthwhile having in mind when reading the Secret Doctrine and other papers from the old days of the Theosophical Society.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 8:46 PM
Subject: theos-talk Re: off topic about lama dorge
I don't recall who mentioned a senario that madame blavatsky had come upon a lama named "Dorge" in her travel and bbecame acquainted with him to her beneift. On one of my previous PC's I had in my favorites several lins about a kalmuk Shaman who is said to have treated the czar or a member of the czars's family, my memory is foggy here it has been several years. But at any rate this Kulmuk Shaman was also said to have created a Herbal medecine clinic out side of the capitol of russia then, and was also a confident to a high peerage figurecwho had a serious Master Plan outline for the future of Russia. Due to a hard drive crash I lost all those links I had then but in my hard written notes I have names and etc some where if I can find again.
In the mean time I have located a website with information for Dorge also givin in the posted reference here as "Dorgieff " if I recall correct. However as is oftenn the case named seem to never be spelled right when it concerns Theosophy context. So the present used spelling of Dorge in what I have located who was the kalmuk lama is "Dorgiev" this banges me hard in my forehead because it keeps making me think of Gurjieff lol! So here is the link which tells what followed in the life of the Lama Dorgiev after Blavatsky and what the Communists ended up doing to him. Poor soul.
The Shamballa Myth and the West ---- Agvan Dorgiev 1854 -- 1938
One curious idea thyat was proposed in the original story about this lama posted here recently was that he was traveling accompaning a spcial envoy or ambassador to Lhasa Tibet and it mentioned that he was an "Adept", but noting his birth date of 1854 he would have been only 21 yrs old in 1875, kinda young for an Adept?
Ok, gentlemen what is your take on this new information?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel" <danielhcaldwell@2G_fXb75Xm18eOTXGCQXlla5lWm35j0FZwyt239ROx09xJLXvQuuDIoYtx18aMVDzzDf1ytyKXtpU1A6RcuviUwfzOg.yahoo.invalid>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:41:44 AM
Subject: theos-talk Marion Meade "explains" HPB's cup and saucer incident???
BELOW is what I wrote on Theos-Talk years ago using an example from Marion Meade's book on HPB to show how Ms. Meade "uses" (misuses) the 4 step method I recently wrote to Govert about here at Theos-Talk.
> Brigitte Muehlegger now tells us to look for an
> explanation about the teacup and saucer incident in
> Marion Meade's MADAME BLAVATSKY, p.223-224.
> Brigitte, do you actually agree with Meade's
> Is Meade's explanation just one of many "possible"
> explanations or is Meade's explanation the most
> "probable" explanation in light of all the known
> evidence? In other words, are we at step 2 or at step
> 4 with Meade's "explanation"?
> Anyway, as Brigitte ponders the above, I give Meade's
> "At the time and even later Alfred could find no
> loopholes in what came to be known as 'the cup and
> saucer incident.' He based his conviction mainly on
> the fact that Madame Blavatsky could not have known in
> advance that there would be seven guests in the party,
> as the judge had arrived only at the last minute.
> OBVIOUSLY she did know, and so did Patience Sinnett
> because Olcott overheard her telling the butler: 'It
> was very stupid of you not to put in another cup and
> saucer when you knew that the other gentleman would
> have to have tea.' It seems reasonable TO ASSUME that
> H.P.B. had instructed Babula to bury the cup and
> saucer, then led the picnickers to the spot herself.
> In fact, this notion had already occurred to the judge
> and police chief who later in the afternoon examined
> the site. Their final conclusion was that it was
> theoretically POSSIBLE for someone to have tunneled in
> from below and thrust the cup and saucer up into the
> place where they were discovered. Apparently Babula
> later confided to Emma Coulomb that this was exactly
> what he had done. In the experts' opinion, the
> phenomenon could not be accepted as scientifically
> perfect and, somewhat indelicately, they
> challenged her to repeat it under test conditions.
> Helena, who had worked hard to stage the tableau,
> could not keep herself from exploding. Henry vividly
> remembered that 'she seemed to take leave of her
> senses and poured out upon the two unfortunate
> skeptics the thunder of her wrath. And so our pleasant
> party ended in an angry tempest.' " Caps added
> Well, Steve, what do you think of Meade's
> Now a few more questions to ponder:
> Is Meade actually explaining the incident [at step 4]
> or is Meade simply speculating [at step 2]? See 4 Step
> Process at:
> Is Meade simply using the "unpacking" method I've
> described before?
> As Ray Hyman wrote: "it is ALWAYS possible to
> 'imagine' SOME scenario in which cheating no matter
> how implausible, COULD HAVE occurred." Caps added.
> This is a step 2 technique.
> Is Meade simply using the "possibility/plausibility"
> method of argument? See
> for an example.
> Has Meade followed the Barzun and Graffe dictum?
> "The rule of 'Give Evidence' is not be be violated. .
> . .No matter how possible or plausible the author's
> conjecture it cannot be accepted as truth if he has
> only his hunch [which is not evidence] to support it.
> Truth rests not on possibility or plausibility but on
> probability. Probability means the balance of chances
> that, GIVEN SUCH AND SUCH EVIDENCE, the event it
> records happened in a certain way; or, in other cases,
> that a supposed event did not in fact take place."
> Caps added.
> Daniel H. Caldwell
> BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
> "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things
> at their right value; and unless a judge compares
> notes and hears both sides he can hardly come to a
> correct decision."
> H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218.
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Back to Top]
Dedicated to the Theosophical Philosophy and its Practical Application