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Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

Jan 17, 2012 04:31 AM
by M. Sufilight

Dear Govert anf friends

My views are:

I am a bit late with a least more than usual...

I am contemplating an longer answer than this one as we speak. I have written 11 pages answering your a, b and c, but I have cut it short in the below. It takes some time to reach a clear conclusion - there are so many angles to consider you know - and also because I am in a learning proces. 
I think views differ on who fits the bill best with regard to the so-called "Torch-bearer" title mentioned by Blavatsky in her book the Secret Doctrine, vol. I, p. xxxviii. 

The likely candidates are among the most often mentioned the following:
Whether it was J. Krishnamurti (d. 1986), Alice A. Bailey (d. 1949), S. Subramania Iyer (d. 1924) and his Avatar.
Ananda Tara Shan (claimed to be Blavatsky re-incarnated...I doubt it.) (d. 2002), Sathya Sai Baba (d. 2011) or another possible candidate (just name one and I will add the person) ...will as a minimum have to be compared before we reach a more clear picture on this...Well as I see it.

First. With regard to the "Torch-Bearer" idea - the main focus is, as I see it, to always keep in mind that Altruism is the core of the matter here, And that Altruism, as I see it for logical reasons, never will succeed in being promoted without a Psychological Change - ie. Psychological Knowledge - and therefore also awareness about the Science on Psychology (exoteric and esoteric) and the Science Subtle Mind Control - especially within religions - ie. taking into account whether one promotes a sectarian or non-sectarian doctrine - for instance a doctrine about a "Torch-bearer". Both are Sciences - not beliefs. And this is also important. --- So I am not about to seek to promote one or another Guru for the readers in this post - using ann approach which is not taking the Science of Subtle Mind Control into account - when answering your interesting post Govert. It think thís is important to centemplate.

And because of this - the angle - used to approach the issue discussed - "Torch-bearer" or Maitreya or not - one aught therefore as I see it - to take the Science of Subtle Mind Control into account - and - avoid the risk of promoting one of the usual personality cults which - perhaps -could be emanating from such an exchange like the present one we have. Because it must also be true - that each individuals view about the issue - certainly might differ because of their own level of being Subtly Mind Controlled --- or not. And since it is subtle - each of us - might be victim of it without actually being aware of it. So I will keep these preliminary points into account when we I proceed. I will mentioned and name some of the Authors on the Science of Subtle Mind Control within ordinary science and spiritual science when asked about.

My humble conclusion is - that all the above mentioned Candidates - did a poor job on the explaining the Science of Subtle Mind Control. But maybe that was not their task - karmically speaking - who actually knows?
Almost none of the above candidates gave the Irrefutable proof on the science called Gupta-Vidya (ie. Atma-Vidya). Perhaps Sai Baba fits the bill better than any other candidate. But then again - either he was the greatest conman in the last century or else he was the greatest Occulist - with regard to be showing signs on Extra Sensory Preseption. Most people would oppose this. I would not say that J. Krishnamurti taught more than Sai Baba on the science of Atma-Vidya - and - others in the Alice A. Bailey camp would claim that Alice A. Bailey did so - despite some of us find this view silly.

--- Union is Strength or Solitude is Strength - that is a vital question? ---
And J. Krishnamurti was, as I see it, more or less clumsy in teaching the doctrine forwarded by Blavatsky on why the TS was founded: Union is Strength when one promote altruism (!!!) He seemed to have taught - Solitude is strength instead, (An odd doctrine to promote by an alleged World Teacher of the Age. - Any comments?). - The actual truth is - BOTH - extrovert and introvert is strength. Simple logic tells us this. One could say that the TS for various reasons - being non-sectarian and all - to a certain extend omitted that part of the equation called solitude. J. Krishnamurti omitted the idea that Union is strength. - Guru's are crutches and similar oneliners coming from his mouth. - But I give the Theosophical Society the upper hand here - because it was also said, that not all belong as members of the Society, and, that, altruism sometimes is best promoted in solitude. And on top of that this was only mentioned by some members of the Theosophical Society, which ORIGINALLY was an Absolutely Non-sectarian Society - with no Solitude Guru - who reject all other Guru's or crutches but his own voice - or at least was so clumsy as to give the expression that this was his message. And that all spiritual organisations in fact was more or less no good - mere sects and all. - And then afterwards he went and created hos - own - so to speak Sectarian - Childrens Schools with the other hand - just to in his last years of his life to end up in a trial with his best friend Rajagopal - on rather trivial matters - compared to a geuine Avatar - consciousness - or even that of a Master.

But what is it to give Irrefutable proof on Gupta-Vidya (ie. Atma-Vidya)???
I think when this is agreed upon - some of the above mentioned candidates will vanish - if not all of them. And your questions a, b, and c - will be more easy to answer.
And Blavatsky did not say that the "Torch-bearer" inevitably would arrive, (See Sd. Vol. I, p. xxxviii).
So what is the answer among the readers - and - you Govert on Gupta-Vidya and what is "Irrefutable proof", in what sense is it to be understood?

M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Govert Schuller 
  Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:49 PM
  Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

  Dear Morton,

  Thanks for your long reply. I'll try to be brief. Keep in mind that the big
  questions in this matter are a) whether the project/program with K was
  genuine or not, b) whether it was successful or not (with the chance of it
  being not genuine but still successful), and I'll add c) whether HPB's
  Torch-bearer prophecy/program was genuine or not (with the possibility that
  the program was one of HPB's concoctions but found a surprising fulfillment
  in K). 

  For starters, the following statements would be in support of the idea that
  HPB's program was genuine, that it was implemented with K and somehow

  1) The words "World Teacher" or "Messiah" to designate the expected
  "Torch-bearer of Truth" are not mine but were used by CWL and AB. One
  Theosophist (Jean Overton Fuller) argued that the project with K was genuine
  but that the CWL/AB accretions were unnecessary and were legitimately tossed
  out by K.

  2) You posit that the Torch-bearer, to be genuine and acceptable in
  your conceptualization, should have taught a psychological key promoting
  psychological change, non-sectarianism and altruism. One could argue that
  Krishnamurti's mature teachings fits the bill quite nicely and is quite free
  from "any more or less emotional-wave related Savior sectarian doctrine." 

  3) K himself, being arguably the ultimate insider of the whole saga,
  claimed in a somewhat puzzling and indirect manner the status of being the
  expected Torch-bearer of Truth. He said: "Mrs. Besant intended the land at
  Adyar [the T.S. international headquarters] to be meant for the teaching.
  The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." I
  argue in my paper on K that this statement is structurally congruent with
  HPB's Torch-bearer program for the TS. 

  4) Nobody else has come as close as K to fulfill HPB's Torch-bearer

  There are other sets of statements to be made from different positions. I
  have argued for a long time that the project with K was genuine but had
  failed and that Cyril Scott, David Anrias, Geoffrey Hodson and Elizabeth
  Clare Prophet had the correct evaluation of what had gone wrong. The
  skeptical position in regards to HPB would put the whole narrative into
  question as a series of concoctions, delusions and manipulations, a
  perspective I'm seriously exploring.



  From: [] On
  Behalf Of M. Sufilight
  Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 4:19 PM
  Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

  Dear Govert and friends

  My views are:

  I will here in the below seek to help you in understanding my view on the
  matter by writing at least a few pages on it all.
  I also write so that other Seekers might benefit from it all. (I can only
  recommend a research in the references given.)

  I understand that you forward this as a proof on you assertion.
  But, I think that you misjudge the old lady - Blavatsky - a bit when you go
  and interpret this as if such a "torch-bearer" should be a Messiah or World
  Teacher - let alone named Maitreya or Christ. Because this was not the words
  - chosen by Blavatsky, but the words chosen by you it seems. And I am sure
  that Blavatsky would have chosen at different kind of formulation if she
  meant what you clearly seem to imply.
  And the below quotes from her hand - should settle this question clearly and
  strongly enough.(Annie Besant's views are merely her own - I am not aware of
  any documentation supporting her claim that Blavatsky had such a view as her
  own - as stated in the footnote - and nothing is - clearly - mentioned by
  Blavatsky and others about that the MAIN reason for founding the
  Theosophical Society was to prepare for a Messiah --- The Original Objects
  given in 1875 is here: --- "no
  creed to disseminate"...etc. etc.)

  The "torch-bearer" in mention - would therefore as I see it simply be a
  Bodhisattva or one of the initiated Chelas, who would be chosen for such a
  task. A role she claimed for Cagliostro and the Count St. Germain in the
  18th century. (See primarily "Chelas And Lay Chelas" by Blavatsky) And her
  self no doubt in the 19th century. The one claimed to have --- possibly ---
  arrived in the 20th century - I have not discovered yet, although I have my
  ideas. But the teachings must have dealt with the science on psychology - in
  a very profound manner, and seven-fold too. More in the below on this.

  We aught to bear in mind - that such a one only would arrive according to
  Blavatsky --- "If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds
  better than
  its predecessors have done" ---- We can easily question whether is has
  succeeded better or not. And aught perhaps to do so.

  (((----- Other reference related to all the above are the following: ---
  BCW, Vol. 1 p. 141 --- and --- BCW, Vol. 12. p. 81, "Kenneth MacKenzie has
  well proven that Cagliostro had never mixed himself up with political
  intrigue-the very soul of the activities of the Jesuits." ----this one was
  for the Alice A. Bailey camp --- See Mahatma LETTER No. LXV --- See also
  "Theosophical Glossary", 1892 at "St. Germain" - the second world war
  predicted by Blavatsky and John King's portrait did it as well - - with the Swastica and
  Jew Star and all. The Law of Karma will not bend, and the negative magicians
  have their fall. But these are my views, and somebody will say that I
  interpret too much in alle this. -----)))

  The teaching forwarded by such a "Torch-bearer" (not a Messiah mind you) in
  mention, would no doubt give emphasis on the Psychological Key to the Secret
  Doctrine of all ages - also as a natural result a doctrine giving emphasis
  on Atma-Vidya (Gupta-Vidya, the same). Also called the "mystical" or moral
  key - the first key that need to be turned - Because there cannot be any
  real Altruism promoted without a PSYCHOLOGICAL CHANGE in the Individual.
  This must be clear. And since 1888 - the Science of Psychology (therefore
  both esoteric and exoteric !!!) has made its - slowly and almost invisible -
  almost "french" entree - in the Western Hemisphere and the Eastern as well,
  and North and South, - and the percentage of human beings being able to read
  and write on globe as such has increased quite visibly. Taking this into
  account aught to give the readers an idea about what such a Torch-bearer
  necessarily must teach - IF - he or she should arrive and karma will permit
  such an arrival - or has arrived. - And the science on Subtle Mind Control -
  would no doubt be - carefully and efficiently - taken into account - when
  such a doctrine was or would be forwarded. - Just like the scientific
  doctrine on "matter" and "substance" was dealt very much with by Blavatsky
  in her book the Secret Doctrine. This seem pretty logical. 
  ---- Others disagree on the above. And those who disagree most often - do
  not know a trifle about the psychological science or the psychological
  science on Subtle Mind Control. A science - not a belief. And this science
  in our times - is the Psychological Key - and - A Key to the esoteric
  Psychology. (The reason why the Psychological Key is important is also seen
  here: "Esoteric Character Of The Gospels" by Blavatsky, CBW, VII, p. 182 .
  "The first key that one has to use to unravel the dark secrets"
  seq. - and the rest.... --- and from this article and other papers -
  historical evidence about the Mysteries through the centuries - and - by
  analogical contemplations - one will see that the "new" science of
  psychology (both esoterical and exoterical) is the next important step on
  this planet for humanity. Today we have psychology creeping in all and
  everywhere. - At work in nearly all the profit scheming companies, in nearly
  all the alternative treatments of all sorts (hundred years ago - the
  soothsayers and "quacks" operated differently - smile), coaching workshops,
  spin among politicians and civil servants, Even the dogmatic religions had
  to take psychology seriously, although unwillingly as usual. - And it
  arrived really visibly as officially mentioned in the 1879 or 1880 or so -
  on a wave running parallel with the formation of the Theosophical Society.
  So you see - there is more than one thing going on on this our little planet
  - while cycle of evolution goes on - with little sweet babies getting born,
  grow up and begin to walk, become adults, get old and die - all the many
  lifes that constantly arrive and depart on this planet or world - and the
  lokas - with the eleusian fields, hades, "walhalla", devachan and all that.)

  All the above ---- still does not remove the fact - I questioned you about
  Govert - that the Theosophical Society was PRIMARILY founded so to promote
  altruism. Not not primarily so to prepare the arrival of a Messiah. So the
  founding of The Theosophical Society aught certainly not to be connected
  with any more or less emotional-wave related Savior sectarian doctrine in
  any manner what so ever. This is there I disagreed with you.
  This you not see this?

  And if an Avatar arrives - the doctrine - will no doubt be about Altruism
  regard to any human (because we are all temples of the divine - according to
  the ancient Wisdom traditions of all ages and cultures) and organisation -
  ie. the psychological key - and - must be to promote altruism through an
  Absolutely Non-Sectarian organisational aim - and - even non-organisational
  - aim, because humans live like ebb and flood, extrovert and introvert, in
  various phases of life. And any teaching by an Avatar seeking to promote a
  sectarian doctrine - will quite obviously fail in these days - as it has
  done in the past decades - although quite a number of the past Initiated
  teachers - have been plastered with being sectarian - by the same sectarian
  persons - who still are scheming sectarianism and even dogmatism. However,
  these are merely my humble views - But I challenge any one to - disprove
  them. If they are able - they will find a willing listener. This is written
  from the heart seeking to promote altruism for us all.

  The below is a contrast to the idea that Blavatsky meant a Messiah - when
  she mentioned the POSSIBLE - arrival of a Torch-Bearer in the 20th century.

  H. P. Blavatsky said:
  "With the spread of the spiritualistic cult, the Messiah craze has vastly
  increased, and men and women alike have been involved in its whirlpools.
  Given, a strong desire to reform somehow the religious or social aspect of
  the world, a personal hatred of certain of its aspects, and a belief in
  visions and messages, and the result was sure; the "Messiah" arose with a
  universal panacea for the ills of mankind. If he (very often she) did not
  make the claim, it was made for him. Carried away by the magnetic force, the
  eloquence, the courage, the single idea of the apostle pro tem, numbers, for
  very varied reasons, accepted him or her as the revelator of the hour and of
  all time. "
  "With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, and
  sees its doom."

  H. B. Blavatsky wrote:
  "It is, however, right that each member, once he believes in the existence
  of such Masters, should try to understand what their nature and powers are,
  to reverence Them in his heart, to draw near to Them, as much as in him
  lies, and to open up for himself conscious communication with the guru to
  whose bidding he has devoted his life. THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE BY RISING TO
  (BCW; Vol. XII, p. 492)

  M. Sufilight says:
  My own view are the following.......
  People are always looking for an Avatar or a Saviour; that does not mean
  this is the time for an Avatar or a Christ Saviour. The problems that an
  Avatar or a Saviour would be
  able to resolve have not been identified. Nor does the clamor mean
  that those who cry out are suitable followers. Most of the people who
  demand an Avatar or a Christ Saviour seem to have some baby's idea of what
  an Avatar or a Saviour
  should do. The idea that an Avatar or a Christ Saviour will walk in and we
  will all
  recognize him, her or it and follow this being and everybody will be happy
  strikes me
  as a strangely IMMATURE ATAVISM. Most of these people, I believe,
  want not an Avatar or a Christ Saviour but excitement. I doubt that those
  who cry the
  loudest would obey an Avatar or a Christ Saviour if there was one. Talk is
  cheap, and a
  lot of the talk comes from millions of beginner seekers after truth and
  (Maybe the leaders at various esoteric groups would be kind to consider the
  above words. Okay?)

  A few extra views of my own....
  There is no so-called "dead" matter. Atoms vibrate and rotate. From where is
  the force that makes them rotate, and make the electrons spin? From
  life-force, no doubt.
  Even your computerscreen and table is alive and livning. Alle the planets
  are living. The Sun-spots in the Sun seen by the astronomers are related to
  the expression of the heart of the Sun and occur every 10-11 years. And the
  Sun is very much related to the karmic cycles on our planet. It determines
  the humans our harvests of vegetables, corn, fruits and berries, and the
  food of animals - and photosynthesis is central here. The Sun is alive and
  breathes. All planets breathe. Science can still not find out why certain
  comets are not following ordinary physical laws of science. They can neither
  understand what force determines the spin of each planet. And the
  astronomers still talk about "dark matter" outside our Solar System - but
  they seem to forget to notify the chemist about that this "dark matter"
  might be very near to matter on earth as well. And we call it Ether or
  So where ever you look in the future, please realise that - all - this our
  universe is a living organism. Let us together respect each other as living
  breathing creatures - all divine in our inner nature. For each human is a
  Dhyan Chohan (with an esoterical Christian word an Archangel) which in its
  cycle of necessity had to make it self incarnate as a human - so to absorb
  the necessary exchange of energy or Akasic recording in the Universe. So in
  a sense we are here because some Dhyan Chohans need to learn what other
  Dhyan Chohans already have learned. 

  All the above are of course only my humble views.
  But maybe some of the long time theosophists or other members on this forum
  would tell me something - I have overlooked - or could improve upon. I would
  gladly welcome something like that. 
  Altruism is important, is it not?
  I do not claim my self infallible. - I just have the hope that you as
  members find the above useful. 

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Govert Schuller 
  To: <> 
  Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:34 PM
  Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

  Well, gentlemen, if you've read "The Masters and Their Emissaries: From HPB
  to Guru Ma and Beyond" at
  <> you might
  have found the following documentation in footnote 2:

  [The timing of this project is addressed in footnote 3 with a quote from
  Annie Besant]

  Blavatsky wrote in 1889: 

  "If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds better than
  its predecessors have done, then it will be in existence as an organized,
  living and healthy body when the time comes for the effort of the XXth
  century. The general condition of men's minds and hearts will have been
  improved and purified by the spread of its teachings, and, as I have said,
  their prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have been, to some extent at
  least, removed. Not only so, but besides a large and accessible literature
  ready to men's hands, the next impulse will find a numerous and united body
  of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the
  minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for him in which to
  clothe the new truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which
  will remove the merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from
  his path. Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity is given, could
  accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the Theosophical Society
  actually has achieved in the last fourteen years, with out any of these
  advantages and surrounded by hosts of hindrances which would not hamper the
  new leader. Consider all this, and then tell me whether I am too sanguine
  when I say that if the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its
  mission, to its original impulses through the next hundred years--tell me, I
  say, if I go too far in asserting that earth will be a heaven in the
  twenty-first century in comparison with what it is now!"

  H.P. Blavatsky, The Key to Theosophy (London: Theosophical Publishing Co.,
  1889), pp. 306-307. 

  From: <>
  [ <> ]
  Behalf Of Daniel
  Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 12:45 PM
  To: <> 
  Subject: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

  Good question. I will be looking forward for the documentation, too.


  --- In <>
  <> ,
  "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...> wrote:
  > Dear Daniel and friends
  > My views are:
  > I se not that many problems with most of what Govert are saying.
  > The books by the Ballards could easily be at the library at TS Adyar.
  > (Of course if there were a demand for them. Or donations of books were
  > Well, when I reached the following I hesitated immediately...
  > Govert wrote:
  > The Theosophical
  > Society was founded, not only to re-introduce to the west the idea of an
  > Wisdom, but also to prepare the world for the coming of a great teacher.
  > M. Sufilight says:
  > That was a new one to me. Govert?
  > Where are the documentation on this claim that the Theosophical Society
  was founded in 1875 for this reason?
  > I tend to disagree.
  > The Society was as I understand it founded so to promote altruism - since
  this was and still is the main object of the Theosophical Society.
  > All other ideas - cannot - be important or central in any manner. Since
  this Society was non-sectarian from its very beginning.
  > Else we can go and say that the Theosophical Society was founded so that
  you and I could become Avatars or clairvoyant etc. And anything else of a
  sectarian choosing.
  > M. Sufilight
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: Daniel 
  > To: <>
  > Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 6:36 PM
  > Subject: theos-talk Mahatmas versus Ascended Masters
  > Govert S. has written the following:
  > Readers may also want to read what HPB said:
  > On Pseudo-Theosophy and Pseudo-Adepts
  > Also see:
  > Some food for thoughtful reflection....
  > Daniel
  > Blavatsky Archives
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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