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RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

Jan 16, 2012 07:25 PM
by Govert Schuller

Canât really say, but my impression is that he was demanding to extent of putting his pupils in physical and psychological danger, not just danger to the ego, which might be ok, but danger to oneâs psyche. 


From: [] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question



yes, but in terms of him being a teacher?

> From: Govert Schuller < <> >
>To: <>  
>Sent: Monday, 16 January 2012 5:34 AM
>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>Courageous rascal
>From: <>  [ <> ] On Behalf Of Cass Silva
>Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:35 PM
>To: <> 
>Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>Your thoughts on Gurdgieff?
>> From: Govert Schuller < <>  <> >
>>To: <>  <> 
>>Sent: Sunday, 15 January 2012 5:49 AM
>>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>Dear Morton,
>>Thanks for your long reply. I'll try to be brief. Keep in mind that the big
>>questions in this matter are a) whether the project/program with K was
>>genuine or not, b) whether it was successful or not (with the chance of it
>>being not genuine but still successful), and I'll add c) whether HPB's
>>Torch-bearer prophecy/program was genuine or not (with the possibility that
>>the program was one of HPB's concoctions but found a surprising fulfillment
>>in K). 
>>For starters, the following statements would be in support of the idea that
>>HPB's program was genuine, that it was implemented with K and somehow
>>1) The words "World Teacher" or "Messiah" to designate the expected
>>"Torch-bearer of Truth" are not mine but were used by CWL and AB. One
>>Theosophist (Jean Overton Fuller) argued that the project with K was genuine
>>but that the CWL/AB accretions were unnecessary and were legitimately tossed
>>out by K.
>>2) You posit that the Torch-bearer, to be genuine and acceptable in
>>your conceptualization, should have taught a psychological key promoting
>>psychological change, non-sectarianism and altruism. One could argue that
>>Krishnamurti's mature teachings fits the bill quite nicely and is quite free
>>from "any more or less emotional-wave related Savior sectarian doctrine." 
>>3) K himself, being arguably the ultimate insider of the whole saga,
>>claimed in a somewhat puzzling and indirect manner the status of being the
>>expected Torch-bearer of Truth. He said: "Mrs. Besant intended the land at
>>Adyar [the T.S. international headquarters] to be meant for the teaching.
>>The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." I
>>argue in my paper on K that this statement is structurally congruent with
>>HPB's Torch-bearer program for the TS. 
>>4) Nobody else has come as close as K to fulfill HPB's Torch-bearer
>>There are other sets of statements to be made from different positions. I
>>have argued for a long time that the project with K was genuine but had
>>failed and that Cyril Scott, David Anrias, Geoffrey Hodson and Elizabeth
>>Clare Prophet had the correct evaluation of what had gone wrong. The
>>skeptical position in regards to HPB would put the whole narrative into
>>question as a series of concoctions, delusions and manipulations, a
>>perspective I'm seriously exploring.
>>From: <>  <> [ <>  <> ] On
>>Behalf Of M. Sufilight
>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 4:19 PM
>>To: <>  <> 
>>Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>Dear Govert and friends
>>My views are:
>>I will here in the below seek to help you in understanding my view on the
>>matter by writing at least a few pages on it all.
>>I also write so that other Seekers might benefit from it all. (I can only
>>recommend a research in the references given.)
>>I understand that you forward this as a proof on you assertion.
>>But, I think that you misjudge the old lady - Blavatsky - a bit when you go
>>and interpret this as if such a "torch-bearer" should be a Messiah or World
>>Teacher - let alone named Maitreya or Christ. Because this was not the words
>>- chosen by Blavatsky, but the words chosen by you it seems. And I am sure
>>that Blavatsky would have chosen at different kind of formulation if she
>>meant what you clearly seem to imply.
>>And the below quotes from her hand - should settle this question clearly and
>>strongly enough.(Annie Besant's views are merely her own - I am not aware of
>>any documentation supporting her claim that Blavatsky had such a view as her
>>own - as stated in the footnote - and nothing is - clearly - mentioned by
>>Blavatsky and others about that the MAIN reason for founding the
>>Theosophical Society was to prepare for a Messiah --- The Original Objects
>>given in 1875 is here:
>> --- "no
>>creed to disseminate"...etc. etc.)
>>The "torch-bearer" in mention - would therefore as I see it simply be a
>>Bodhisattva or one of the initiated Chelas, who would be chosen for such a
>>task. A role she claimed for Cagliostro and the Count St. Germain in the
>>18th century. (See primarily "Chelas And Lay Chelas" by Blavatsky) And her
>>self no doubt in the 19th century. The one claimed to have --- possibly ---
>>arrived in the 20th century - I have not discovered yet, although I have my
>>ideas. But the teachings must have dealt with the science on psychology - in
>>a very profound manner, and seven-fold too. More in the below on this.
>>We aught to bear in mind - that such a one only would arrive according to
>>Blavatsky --- "If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds
>>better than
>>its predecessors have done" ---- We can easily question whether is has
>>succeeded better or not. And aught perhaps to do so.
>>(((----- Other reference related to all the above are the following: ---
>>BCW, Vol. 1 p. 141 --- and --- BCW, Vol. 12. p. 81, "Kenneth MacKenzie has
>>well proven that Cagliostro had never mixed himself up with political
>>intrigue-the very soul of the activities of the Jesuits." ----this one was
>>for the Alice A. Bailey camp --- See Mahatma LETTER No. LXV --- See also
>>"Theosophical Glossary", 1892 at "St. Germain" - the second world war
>>predicted by Blavatsky and John King's portrait did it as well -
>> - with the Swastica and
>>Jew Star and all. The Law of Karma will not bend, and the negative magicians
>>have their fall. But these are my views, and somebody will say that I
>>interpret too much in alle this. -----)))
>>The teaching forwarded by such a "Torch-bearer" (not a Messiah mind you) in
>>mention, would no doubt give emphasis on the Psychological Key to the Secret
>>Doctrine of all ages - also as a natural result a doctrine giving emphasis
>>on Atma-Vidya (Gupta-Vidya, the same). Also called the "mystical" or moral
>>key - the first key that need to be turned - Because there cannot be any
>>real Altruism promoted without a PSYCHOLOGICAL CHANGE in the Individual.
>>This must be clear. And since 1888 - the Science of Psychology (therefore
>>both esoteric and exoteric !!!) has made its - slowly and almost invisible -
>>almost "french" entree - in the Western Hemisphere and the Eastern as well,
>>and North and South, - and the percentage of human beings being able to read
>>and write on globe as such has increased quite visibly. Taking this into
>>account aught to give the readers an idea about what such a Torch-bearer
>>necessarily must teach - IF - he or she should arrive and karma will permit
>>such an arrival - or has arrived. - And the science on Subtle Mind Control -
>>would no doubt be - carefully and efficiently - taken into account - when
>>such a doctrine was or would be forwarded. - Just like the scientific
>>doctrine on "matter" and "substance" was dealt very much with by Blavatsky
>>in her book the Secret Doctrine. This seem pretty logical. 
>>---- Others disagree on the above. And those who disagree most often - do
>>not know a trifle about the psychological science or the psychological
>>science on Subtle Mind Control. A science - not a belief. And this science
>>in our times - is the Psychological Key - and - A Key to the esoteric
>>Psychology. (The reason why the Psychological Key is important is also seen
>>here: "Esoteric Character Of The Gospels" by Blavatsky, CBW, VII, p. 182 .
>>"The first key that one has to use to unravel the dark secrets"
>>seq. - and the rest.... --- and from this article and other papers -
>>historical evidence about the Mysteries through the centuries - and - by
>>analogical contemplations - one will see that the "new" science of
>>psychology (both esoterical and exoterical) is the next important step on
>>this planet for humanity. Today we have psychology creeping in all and
>>everywhere. - At work in nearly all the profit scheming companies, in nearly
>>all the alternative treatments of all sorts (hundred years ago - the
>>soothsayers and "quacks" operated differently - smile), coaching workshops,
>>spin among politicians and civil servants, Even the dogmatic religions had
>>to take psychology seriously, although unwillingly as usual. - And it
>>arrived really visibly as officially mentioned in the 1879 or 1880 or so -
>>on a wave running parallel with the formation of the Theosophical Society.
>>So you see - there is more than one thing going on on this our little planet
>>- while cycle of evolution goes on - with little sweet babies getting born,
>>grow up and begin to walk, become adults, get old and die - all the many
>>lifes that constantly arrive and depart on this planet or world - and the
>>lokas - with the eleusian fields, hades, "walhalla", devachan and all that.)
>>All the above ---- still does not remove the fact - I questioned you about
>>Govert - that the Theosophical Society was PRIMARILY founded so to promote
>>altruism. Not not primarily so to prepare the arrival of a Messiah. So the
>>founding of The Theosophical Society aught certainly not to be connected
>>with any more or less emotional-wave related Savior sectarian doctrine in
>>any manner what so ever. This is there I disagreed with you.
>>This you not see this?
>>And if an Avatar arrives - the doctrine - will no doubt be about Altruism
>>regard to any human (because we are all temples of the divine - according to
>>the ancient Wisdom traditions of all ages and cultures) and organisation -
>>ie. the psychological key - and - must be to promote altruism through an
>>Absolutely Non-Sectarian organisational aim - and - even non-organisational
>>- aim, because humans live like ebb and flood, extrovert and introvert, in
>>various phases of life. And any teaching by an Avatar seeking to promote a
>>sectarian doctrine - will quite obviously fail in these days - as it has
>>done in the past decades - although quite a number of the past Initiated
>>teachers - have been plastered with being sectarian - by the same sectarian
>>persons - who still are scheming sectarianism and even dogmatism. However,
>>these are merely my humble views - But I challenge any one to - disprove
>>them. If they are able - they will find a willing listener. This is written
>>from the heart seeking to promote altruism for us all.
>>The below is a contrast to the idea that Blavatsky meant a Messiah - when
>>she mentioned the POSSIBLE - arrival of a Torch-Bearer in the 20th century.
>>H. P. Blavatsky said:
>>"With the spread of the spiritualistic cult, the Messiah craze has vastly
>>increased, and men and women alike have been involved in its whirlpools.
>>Given, a strong desire to reform somehow the religious or social aspect of
>>the world, a personal hatred of certain of its aspects, and a belief in
>>visions and messages, and the result was sure; the "Messiah" arose with a
>>universal panacea for the ills of mankind. If he (very often she) did not
>>make the claim, it was made for him. Carried away by the magnetic force, the
>>eloquence, the courage, the single idea of the apostle pro tem, numbers, for
>>very varied reasons, accepted him or her as the revelator of the hour and of
>>all time. "
>>"With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, and
>>sees its doom."
>>H. B. Blavatsky wrote:
>>"It is, however, right that each member, once he believes in the existence
>>of such Masters, should try to understand what their nature and powers are,
>>to reverence Them in his heart, to draw near to Them, as much as in him
>>lies, and to open up for himself conscious communication with the guru to
>>whose bidding he has devoted his life. THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE BY RISING TO
>>(BCW; Vol. XII, p. 492)
>>M. Sufilight says:
>>My own view are the following.......
>>People are always looking for an Avatar or a Saviour; that does not mean
>>this is the time for an Avatar or a Christ Saviour. The problems that an
>>Avatar or a Saviour would be
>>able to resolve have not been identified. Nor does the clamor mean
>>that those who cry out are suitable followers. Most of the people who
>>demand an Avatar or a Christ Saviour seem to have some baby's idea of what
>>an Avatar or a Saviour
>>should do. The idea that an Avatar or a Christ Saviour will walk in and we
>>will all
>>recognize him, her or it and follow this being and everybody will be happy
>>strikes me
>>as a strangely IMMATURE ATAVISM. Most of these people, I believe,
>>want not an Avatar or a Christ Saviour but excitement. I doubt that those
>>who cry the
>>loudest would obey an Avatar or a Christ Saviour if there was one. Talk is
>>cheap, and a
>>lot of the talk comes from millions of beginner seekers after truth and
>>(Maybe the leaders at various esoteric groups would be kind to consider the
>>above words. Okay?)
>>A few extra views of my own....
>>There is no so-called "dead" matter. Atoms vibrate and rotate. From where is
>>the force that makes them rotate, and make the electrons spin? From
>>life-force, no doubt.
>>Even your computerscreen and table is alive and livning. Alle the planets
>>are living. The Sun-spots in the Sun seen by the astronomers are related to
>>the expression of the heart of the Sun and occur every 10-11 years. And the
>>Sun is very much related to the karmic cycles on our planet. It determines
>>the humans our harvests of vegetables, corn, fruits and berries, and the
>>food of animals - and photosynthesis is central here. The Sun is alive and
>>breathes. All planets breathe. Science can still not find out why certain
>>comets are not following ordinary physical laws of science. They can neither
>>understand what force determines the spin of each planet. And the
>>astronomers still talk about "dark matter" outside our Solar System - but
>>they seem to forget to notify the chemist about that this "dark matter"
>>might be very near to matter on earth as well. And we call it Ether or
>>So where ever you look in the future, please realise that - all - this our
>>universe is a living organism. Let us together respect each other as living
>>breathing creatures - all divine in our inner nature. For each human is a
>>Dhyan Chohan (with an esoterical Christian word an Archangel) which in its
>>cycle of necessity had to make it self incarnate as a human - so to absorb
>>the necessary exchange of energy or Akasic recording in the Universe. So in
>>a sense we are here because some Dhyan Chohans need to learn what other
>>Dhyan Chohans already have learned. 
>>All the above are of course only my humble views.
>>But maybe some of the long time theosophists or other members on this forum
>>would tell me something - I have overlooked - or could improve upon. I would
>>gladly welcome something like that. 
>>Altruism is important, is it not?
>>I do not claim my self infallible. - I just have the hope that you as
>>members find the above useful. 
>>M. Sufilight
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: Govert Schuller 
>>To: <>  <> <> 
>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:34 PM
>>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>Well, gentlemen, if you've read "The Masters and Their Emissaries: From HPB
>>to Guru Ma and Beyond" at
>> you might
>>have found the following documentation in footnote 2:
>>[The timing of this project is addressed in footnote 3 with a quote from
>>Annie Besant]
>>Blavatsky wrote in 1889: 
>>"If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds better than
>>its predecessors have done, then it will be in existence as an organized,
>>living and healthy body when the time comes for the effort of the XXth
>>century. The general condition of men's minds and hearts will have been
>>improved and purified by the spread of its teachings, and, as I have said,
>>their prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have been, to some extent at
>>least, removed. Not only so, but besides a large and accessible literature
>>ready to men's hands, the next impulse will find a numerous and united body
>>of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the
>>minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for him in which to
>>clothe the new truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which
>>will remove the merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from
>>his path. Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity is given, could
>>accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the Theosophical Society
>>actually has achieved in the last fourteen years, with out any of these
>>advantages and surrounded by hosts of hindrances which would not hamper the
>>new leader. Consider all this, and then tell me whether I am too sanguine
>>when I say that if the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its
>>mission, to its original impulses through the next hundred years--tell me, I
>>say, if I go too far in asserting that earth will be a heaven in the
>>twenty-first century in comparison with what it is now!"
>>H.P. Blavatsky, The Key to Theosophy (London: Theosophical Publishing Co.,
>>1889), pp. 306-307. 
>>From: <>  <> <>
>>[ <>  <> <> ]
>>Behalf Of Daniel
>>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 12:45 PM
>>To: <>  <> <> 
>>Subject: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>>Good question. I will be looking forward for the documentation, too.
>>--- In <>  <> <>
>><> ,
>>"M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...> wrote:
>>> Dear Daniel and friends
>>> My views are:
>>> I se not that many problems with most of what Govert are saying.
>>> The books by the Ballards could easily be at the library at TS Adyar.
>>> (Of course if there were a demand for them. Or donations of books were
>>> Well, when I reached the following I hesitated immediately...
>>> Govert wrote:
>>> The Theosophical
>>> Society was founded, not only to re-introduce to the west the idea of an
>>> Wisdom, but also to prepare the world for the coming of a great teacher.
>>> M. Sufilight says:
>>> That was a new one to me. Govert?
>>> Where are the documentation on this claim that the Theosophical Society
>>was founded in 1875 for this reason?
>>> I tend to disagree.
>>> The Society was as I understand it founded so to promote altruism - since
>>this was and still is the main object of the Theosophical Society.
>>> All other ideas - cannot - be important or central in any manner. Since
>>this Society was non-sectarian from its very beginning.
>>> Else we can go and say that the Theosophical Society was founded so that
>>you and I could become Avatars or clairvoyant etc. And anything else of a
>>sectarian choosing.
>>> M. Sufilight
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: Daniel 
>>> To: <>  <> <>
>>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 6:36 PM
>>> Subject: theos-talk Mahatmas versus Ascended Masters
>>> Govert S. has written the following:
>>> Readers may also want to read what HPB said:
>>> On Pseudo-Theosophy and Pseudo-Adepts
>>> Also see:
>>> Some food for thoughtful reflection....
>>> Daniel
>>> Blavatsky Archives
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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