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Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

Jan 14, 2012 06:38 PM
by Cass Silva

Your thoughts on Gurdgieff?

> From: Govert Schuller <>
>Sent: Sunday, 15 January 2012 5:49 AM
>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>Dear Morton,
>Thanks for your long reply. I'll try to be brief. Keep in mind that the big
>questions in this matter are a) whether the project/program with K was
>genuine or not, b) whether it was successful or not (with the chance of it
>being not genuine but still successful), and I'll add c) whether HPB's
>Torch-bearer prophecy/program  was genuine or not (with the possibility that
>the program was one of HPB's concoctions but found a surprising fulfillment
>in K). 
>For starters, the following statements would be in support of the idea that
>HPB's program was genuine, that it was implemented with K and somehow
>1)      The words "World Teacher" or "Messiah" to designate the expected
>"Torch-bearer of Truth" are not mine but were used by CWL and AB. One
>Theosophist (Jean Overton Fuller) argued that the project with K was genuine
>but that the CWL/AB accretions were unnecessary and were legitimately tossed
>out by K.
>2)      You posit that the Torch-bearer, to be genuine and acceptable in
>your conceptualization, should have taught a psychological key promoting
>psychological change, non-sectarianism and altruism. One could argue that
>Krishnamurti's mature teachings fits the bill quite nicely and is quite free
>from "any more or less emotional-wave related Savior sectarian doctrine." 
>3)      K himself, being arguably the ultimate insider of the whole saga,
>claimed in a somewhat puzzling  and indirect manner the status of being the
>expected Torch-bearer of Truth. He said: "Mrs. Besant intended the land at
>Adyar [the T.S. international headquarters] to be meant for the teaching.
>The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." I
>argue in my paper on K that this statement is structurally congruent with
>HPB's Torch-bearer program for the TS. 
>4)      Nobody else has come as close as K to fulfill HPB's Torch-bearer
>There are other sets of statements to be made from different positions. I
>have argued for a long time that the project with K was genuine but had
>failed and that Cyril Scott, David Anrias, Geoffrey Hodson and Elizabeth
>Clare Prophet had the correct evaluation of what had gone wrong. The
>skeptical position in regards to HPB would put the whole narrative into
>question as a series of concoctions, delusions and manipulations, a
>perspective I'm seriously exploring.
>From: [] On
>Behalf Of M. Sufilight
>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 4:19 PM
>Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>Dear Govert and friends
>My views are:
>I will here in the below seek to help you in understanding my view on the
>matter by writing at least a few pages on it all.
>I also write so that other Seekers might benefit from it all. (I can only
>recommend a research in the references given.)
>I understand that you forward this as a proof on you assertion.
>But, I think that you misjudge the old lady - Blavatsky - a bit when you go
>and interpret this as if such a "torch-bearer" should be a Messiah or World
>Teacher - let alone named Maitreya or Christ. Because this was not the words
>- chosen by Blavatsky, but the words chosen by you it seems. And I am sure
>that Blavatsky would have chosen at different kind of formulation if she
>meant what you clearly seem to imply.
>And the below quotes from her hand - should settle this question clearly and
>strongly enough.(Annie Besant's views are merely her own - I am not aware of
>any documentation supporting her claim that Blavatsky had such a view as her
>own - as stated in the footnote - and nothing is - clearly - mentioned by
>Blavatsky and others about that the MAIN reason for founding the
>Theosophical Society was to prepare for a Messiah --- The Original Objects
>given in 1875 is here:
> --- "no
>creed to disseminate"...etc. etc.)
>The "torch-bearer" in mention - would therefore as I see it simply be a
>Bodhisattva or one of the initiated Chelas, who would be chosen for such a
>task. A role she claimed for Cagliostro and the Count St. Germain in the
>18th century. (See primarily "Chelas And Lay Chelas" by Blavatsky) And her
>self no doubt in the 19th century. The one claimed to have --- possibly ---
>arrived in the 20th century - I have not discovered yet, although I have my
>ideas. But the teachings must have dealt with the science on psychology - in
>a very profound manner, and seven-fold too. More in the below on this.
>We aught to bear in mind - that such a one only would arrive according to
>Blavatsky --- "If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds
>better than
>its predecessors have done" ---- We can easily question whether is has
>succeeded better or not. And aught perhaps to do so.
>(((----- Other reference related to all the above are the following: ---
>BCW, Vol. 1 p. 141 --- and --- BCW, Vol. 12. p. 81, "Kenneth MacKenzie has
>well proven that Cagliostro had never mixed himself up with political
>intrigue-the very soul of the activities of the Jesuits." ----this one was
>for the Alice A. Bailey camp --- See Mahatma LETTER No. LXV --- See also
>"Theosophical Glossary", 1892 at "St. Germain" - the second world war
>predicted by Blavatsky and John King's portrait did it as well -
> - with the Swastica and
>Jew Star and all. The Law of Karma will not bend, and the negative magicians
>have their fall. But these are my views, and somebody will say that I
>interpret too much in alle this. -----)))
>The teaching forwarded by such a "Torch-bearer" (not a Messiah mind you) in
>mention, would no doubt give emphasis on the Psychological Key to the Secret
>Doctrine of all ages - also as a natural result a doctrine giving emphasis
>on Atma-Vidya (Gupta-Vidya, the same). Also called the "mystical" or moral
>key - the first key that need to be turned - Because there cannot be any
>real Altruism promoted without a PSYCHOLOGICAL CHANGE in the Individual.
>This must be clear. And since 1888 - the Science of Psychology (therefore
>both esoteric and exoteric !!!) has made its - slowly and almost invisible -
>almost "french" entree - in the Western Hemisphere and the Eastern as well,
>and North and South, - and the percentage of human beings being able to read
>and write on globe as such has increased quite visibly. Taking this into
>account aught to give the readers an idea about what such a Torch-bearer
>necessarily must teach - IF - he or she should arrive and karma will permit
>such an arrival - or has arrived. - And the science on Subtle Mind Control -
>would no doubt be - carefully and efficiently - taken into account - when
>such a doctrine was or would be forwarded. - Just like the scientific
>doctrine on "matter" and "substance" was dealt very much with by Blavatsky
>in her book the Secret Doctrine. This seem pretty logical. 
>---- Others disagree on the above. And those who disagree most often - do
>not know a trifle about the psychological science or the psychological
>science on Subtle Mind Control. A science - not a belief. And this science
>in our times - is the Psychological Key - and - A Key to the esoteric
>Psychology. (The reason why the Psychological Key is important is also seen
>here: "Esoteric Character Of The Gospels" by Blavatsky, CBW, VII, p. 182 .
>"The first key that one has to use to unravel the dark secrets"
>seq. - and the rest.... --- and from this article and other papers -
>historical evidence about the Mysteries through the centuries - and - by
>analogical contemplations - one will see that the "new" science of
>psychology (both esoterical and exoterical) is the next important step on
>this planet for humanity. Today we have psychology creeping in all and
>everywhere. - At work in nearly all the profit scheming companies, in nearly
>all the alternative treatments of all sorts (hundred years ago - the
>soothsayers and "quacks" operated differently - smile), coaching workshops,
>spin among politicians and civil servants, Even the dogmatic religions had
>to take psychology seriously, although unwillingly as usual. - And it
>arrived really visibly as officially mentioned in the 1879 or 1880 or so -
>on a wave running parallel with the formation of the Theosophical Society.
>So you see - there is more than one thing going on on this our little planet
>- while cycle of evolution goes on - with little sweet babies getting born,
>grow up and begin to walk, become adults, get old and die - all the many
>lifes that constantly arrive and depart on this planet or world - and the
>lokas - with the eleusian fields, hades, "walhalla", devachan and all that.)
>All the above ---- still does not remove the fact - I questioned you about
>Govert - that the Theosophical Society was PRIMARILY founded so to promote
>altruism. Not not primarily so to prepare the arrival of a Messiah. So the
>founding of The Theosophical Society aught certainly not to be connected
>with any more or less emotional-wave related Savior sectarian doctrine in
>any manner what so ever. This is there I disagreed with you.
>This you not see this?
>And if an Avatar arrives - the doctrine - will no doubt be about Altruism
>regard to any human (because we are all temples of the divine - according to
>the ancient Wisdom traditions of all ages and cultures) and organisation -
>ie. the psychological key - and - must be to promote altruism through an
>Absolutely Non-Sectarian organisational aim - and - even non-organisational
>- aim, because humans live like ebb and flood, extrovert and introvert, in
>various phases of life. And any teaching by an Avatar seeking to promote a
>sectarian doctrine - will quite obviously fail in these days - as it has
>done in the past decades - although quite a number of the past Initiated
>teachers - have been plastered with being sectarian - by the same sectarian
>persons - who still are scheming sectarianism and even dogmatism. However,
>these are merely my humble views - But I challenge any one to - disprove
>them. If they are able - they will find a willing listener. This is written
>from the heart seeking to promote altruism for us all.
>The below is a contrast to the idea that Blavatsky meant a Messiah - when
>she mentioned the POSSIBLE - arrival of a Torch-Bearer in the 20th century.
>H. P. Blavatsky said:
>"With the spread of the spiritualistic cult, the Messiah craze has vastly
>increased, and men and women alike have been involved in its whirlpools.
>Given, a strong desire to reform somehow the religious or social aspect of
>the world, a personal hatred of certain of its aspects, and a belief in
>visions and messages, and the result was sure; the "Messiah" arose with a
>universal panacea for the ills of mankind. If he (very often she) did not
>make the claim, it was made for him. Carried away by the magnetic force, the
>eloquence, the courage, the single idea of the apostle pro tem, numbers, for
>very varied reasons, accepted him or her as the revelator of the hour and of
>all time. "
>"With the advent of Theosophy, the Messiah-craze surely has had its day, and
>sees its doom."
>H. B. Blavatsky wrote:
>"It is, however, right that each member, once he believes in the existence
>of such Masters, should try to understand what their nature and powers are,
>to reverence Them in his heart, to draw near to Them, as much as in him
>lies, and to open up for himself conscious communication with the guru to
>whose bidding he has devoted his life. THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE BY RISING TO
>(BCW; Vol. XII, p. 492)
>M. Sufilight says:
>My own view are the following.......
>People are always looking for an Avatar or a Saviour; that does not mean
>this is the time for an Avatar or a Christ Saviour. The problems that an
>Avatar or a Saviour would be
>able to resolve have not been identified. Nor does the clamor mean
>that those who cry out are suitable followers. Most of the people who
>demand an Avatar or a Christ Saviour seem to have some baby's idea of what
>an Avatar or a Saviour
>should do. The idea that an Avatar or a Christ Saviour will walk in and we
>will all
>recognize him, her or it and follow this being and everybody will be happy
>strikes me
>as a strangely IMMATURE ATAVISM. Most of these people, I believe,
>want not an Avatar or a Christ Saviour but excitement. I doubt that those
>who cry the
>loudest would obey an Avatar or a Christ Saviour if there was one. Talk is
>cheap, and a
>lot of the talk comes from millions of beginner seekers after truth and
>(Maybe the leaders at various esoteric groups would be kind to consider the
>above words. Okay?)
>A few extra views of my own....
>There is no so-called "dead" matter. Atoms vibrate and rotate. From where is
>the force that makes them rotate, and make the electrons spin? From
>life-force, no doubt.
>Even your computerscreen and table is alive and livning. Alle the planets
>are living. The Sun-spots in the Sun seen by the astronomers are related to
>the expression of the heart of the Sun and occur every 10-11 years. And the
>Sun is very much related to the karmic cycles on our planet. It determines
>the humans our harvests of vegetables, corn, fruits and berries, and the
>food of animals - and photosynthesis is central here. The Sun is alive and
>breathes. All planets breathe. Science can still not find out why certain
>comets are not following ordinary physical laws of science. They can neither
>understand what force determines the spin of each planet. And the
>astronomers still talk about "dark matter" outside our Solar System - but
>they seem to forget to notify the chemist about that this "dark matter"
>might be very near to matter on earth as well. And we call it Ether or
>So where ever you look in the future, please realise that - all - this our
>universe is a living organism. Let us together respect each other as living
>breathing creatures - all divine in our inner nature. For each human is a
>Dhyan Chohan (with an esoterical Christian word an Archangel) which in its
>cycle of necessity had to make it self incarnate as a human - so to absorb
>the necessary exchange of energy or Akasic recording in the Universe. So in
>a sense we are here because some Dhyan Chohans need to learn what other
>Dhyan Chohans already have learned. 
>All the above are of course only my humble views.
>But maybe some of the long time theosophists or other members on this forum
>would tell me something - I have overlooked - or could improve upon. I would
>gladly welcome something like that. 
>Altruism is important, is it not?
>I do not claim my self infallible. - I just have the hope that you as
>members find the above useful. 
>M. Sufilight
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: Govert Schuller 
>To: <> 
>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:34 PM
>Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>Well, gentlemen, if you've read "The Masters and Their Emissaries: From HPB
>to Guru Ma and Beyond" at
> you might
>have found the following documentation in footnote 2:
>[The timing of this project is addressed in footnote 3 with a quote from
>Annie Besant]
>Blavatsky wrote in 1889: 
>"If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds better than
>its predecessors have done, then it will be in existence as an organized,
>living and healthy body when the time comes for the effort of the XXth
>century. The general condition of men's minds and hearts will have been
>improved and purified by the spread of its teachings, and, as I have said,
>their prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have been, to some extent at
>least, removed. Not only so, but besides a large and accessible literature
>ready to men's hands, the next impulse will find a numerous and united body
>of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the
>minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for him in which to
>clothe the new truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which
>will remove the merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from
>his path. Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity is given, could
>accomplish. Measure it by comparison with what the Theosophical Society
>actually has achieved in the last fourteen years, with out any of these
>advantages and surrounded by hosts of hindrances which would not hamper the
>new leader. Consider all this, and then tell me whether I am too sanguine
>when I say that if the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its
>mission, to its original impulses through the next hundred years--tell me, I
>say, if I go too far in asserting that earth will be a heaven in the
>twenty-first century in comparison with what it is now!"
>H.P. Blavatsky, The Key to Theosophy (London: Theosophical Publishing Co.,
>1889), pp. 306-307. 
>From: <>
>[ <> ]
>Behalf Of Daniel
>Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 12:45 PM
>To: <> 
>Subject: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question
>Good question. I will be looking forward for the documentation, too.
>--- In <>
><> ,
>"M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...> wrote:
>> Dear Daniel and friends
>> My views are:
>> I se not that many problems with most of what Govert are saying.
>> The books by the Ballards could easily be at the library at TS Adyar.
>> (Of course if there were a demand for them. Or donations of books were
>> Well, when I reached the following I hesitated immediately...
>> Govert wrote:
>> The Theosophical
>> Society was founded, not only to re-introduce to the west the idea of an
>> Wisdom, but also to prepare the world for the coming of a great teacher.
>> M. Sufilight says:
>> That was a new one to me. Govert?
>> Where are the documentation on this claim that the Theosophical Society
>was founded in 1875 for this reason?
>> I tend to disagree.
>> The Society was as I understand it founded so to promote altruism - since
>this was and still is the main object of the Theosophical Society.
>> All other ideas - cannot - be important or central in any manner. Since
>this Society was non-sectarian from its very beginning.
>> Else we can go and say that the Theosophical Society was founded so that
>you and I could become Avatars or clairvoyant etc. And anything else of a
>sectarian choosing.
>> M. Sufilight
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: Daniel 
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 6:36 PM
>> Subject: theos-talk Mahatmas versus Ascended Masters
>> Govert S. has written the following:
>> Readers may also want to read what HPB said:
>> On Pseudo-Theosophy and Pseudo-Adepts
>> Also see:
>> Some food for thoughtful reflection....
>> Daniel
>> Blavatsky Archives
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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