Re: theos-talk Orlando Lodge Innocent until proven guilty!!!
May 06, 2011 08:16 AM
by M. Sufilight
Just to let you know.
I find that Duane Carpenters e-mail in the below in many respects is seeking to be of service to the cause of altruism. And that is important in the matter exchanged upon. I do hope you will consider his views.
And I find, that any kind of "popery" within the TS as such, if any exists, aught to be avoided in such a situation. And Radha Burnier aught to stand honest and clearly and openly be an official example in avoiding this in her behaviour in regard to the Orlando case and all what it involves. Especially when we consider the official present day objects of the TS and also its original intentions as given by the founders of the TS in 1875-1891.
Altruism was originally defined as:
Altruism is selfless concern for the welfare of others.
And Theosophy is said to be ALTRUISM at its core!
- - -
A comment by M. Sufilight
One could consider whether the TS - still - very much is hit by the below "popery" problem mentioned in the article/letter by Blavatsky with excerpts by me --- however - only with the very important difference - that the Corresponding Secretary - is missing heavily in the picture???
Here we go...
[âORIGINAL PROGRAMMEâ MANUSCRIPT]
"But if the two Founders were not told what they had to do, they were distinctly instructed about what they should never do, what they had to avoid, and what the Society should never become. Church organizations, Christian and Spiritual sects were shown as the future contrasts to our Society."
"(1) The Founders had to exercise all their influence to oppose selfishness of any kind, by insisting upon sincere, fraternal feelings among the Membersâat least outwardly; working for it to bring about a spirit of unity and harmony, the great diversity of creeds notwithstanding; expecting and demanding from the Fellows, a great mutual toleration and charity for each otherâs shortcomings; mutual help in the research of truths in every domainâmoral or physicalâand even, in daily life."
"(2) They had to oppose in the strongest manner possible anything approaching dogmatic faith and fanaticismâbelief in the infallibility of the Masters, or even in the very existence of our invisible Teachers, having to be checked from the first. On the other hand, as a great respect for the private views and creeds of every member was demanded, any Fellow criticising the faith or belief of another Fellow, hurting his feelings, or showing a reprehensible self-assertion, unasked (mutual friendly advices were a duty unless declined)âsuch a member incurred expulsion. The greatest spirit of free research untrammelled by anyone or anything, had to be encouraged.
Thus, for the first year the Members of the T. Body who representing every class in Society as every creed and beliefâChristian clergymen, Spiritualists, Freethinkers, Mystics, Masons and Materialistsâlived and met under these rules in peace and friendship. There were two or three expulsions for slander and backbiting. The rules, however imperfect in their tentative character, were strictly enforced and respected by the members "
"Theosophy teaches mutual-culture before self-culture to begin with. Union is strength. It is by gathering many theosophists of the same way of thinking into one or more groups, and making them closely united by the same magnetic bond of fraternal unity and sympathy that the objects of mutual development and progress in Theosophical thought may be best achieved. âSelf-cultureâ is for isolated Hatha Yogis, independent of any Society and having to avoid association with human beings; and this is a triply distilled SELFISHNESS. For real moral gatheredâ in the name of the SPIRIT OF TRUTHâthere that Spirit of Theosophy will be in the midst of them. To say that theosophy has no need of a Societyâa vehicle and centre thereof,âis like affirming that the Wisdom of the Ages collected in thousands of volumes at the British Museum has no need of either the edifice that contains it, nor the works in which it is found. "
"The greatest among men is always the readiest to serve and yet is unconscious of the Service.
âLet us pause before finally tying the millstone of worldliness round the neck of Theosophy. Let us not forget that Theosophy does not grow in our midst by force and control, but by the sunshine of brotherliness and the dew of self-oblivion. If we do not believe in Brotherhood and Truth, let us put ashes on our head and weep in sackcloth and not rejoice in the purple of authority and in the festive garments of pride and worldliness. Better it is by far that the name of Theosophy should never be heard than that it should be used as the motto of a papal institution.â
Who, upon reading this, and being ignorant that the above piece of rhetorical flowers of speech is directed against the luckless Prest.-Founderâwould not have in his âmindâs eyeââan Alexander Borgia, a Caligula, or to say the leastâGeneral Booth in his latest metamorphosis! When, how, or by doing what, has our good natured, unselfish, ever kind President merited such a Ciceronian tirade?"
Now, where are Radha Burnier and especially the Corresponding Secretary of the TS in all this with their - (I do hope) aims of MUTUAL-CULTURE?
I do hope that someone will adress the ADMINISTRATIVE leadership in the TS, if they do not react to this e-mail and other e-mails of compassion on this forum and elsewhere with regard to the Orlando case.
Although not a member myself - I have the greatest sympathy with any scapegoat - because I have too often experienced this role myself in the past.
And since any able clairvoyant will be able to verify that I have witnessed a person who looked like H. P. Blavatsky down to the dot materialize in my own appartment a few years ago - one might say that I am - a bit touched by it all.
----- Original Message -----
From: Duane Carpenter
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 1:42 PM
Subject: theos-talk Orlando Lodge Innocent until proven guilty!!!
The Orlando Lodge is innocent until proven guilty.
Katinka we are trying to get at the truth here and you have clearly not offered
any new clarity to the ongoing controversy.
Orlando Lodge loses its charter and all of its assets and your comment here
about people who are trying to get at the truth as "online rants" lacks
compassion and an understanding of the issues involved. What a callous attitude
you have adopted when so many at the Orlando lodge are forced to experience such
anguish over their possible futures.
Katinka: I totally agree that it would have been good if more specific
information was forthcoming. However, a few years ago a Dutch lodge in my region
got expelled. In that case there had been financial issues. Before the lodge was
expelled, it went all the way up to Radha, as it has gone in this case too.
DC. Are you inferring here Katinka that the Orlando situation is about financial
Katinka: Lodges getting expelled has been a rare but regular occurrence for over
Personally I think the opinion of the federation is way more relevant than mine
is, or yours: they've had to work with these people, so they're opinion is based
on more than reading online rants by people with nothing better to do than write
DC. People are seeking clarification here because they have been done what
appears as an injustice and you flippantly relegate their inquiries to "online
rants". I wonder how you would feel if your website and Theosophical blog had
been up and running for 75 years and then without any clarity around the charges
just shut down and all of your assets seized.
Katinka. Betty bland and the TSA in general are in a bind here: they're being
accused at an online tribunal. But they can't defend themselves to anybodies
satisfaction without defaming the members of the Orlando lodge.
DC. Lets not put the cart before the horses here. National started the lawsuit,
a lawsuit that until its accusations are proven by facts is not justifiable. And
you think we or the Orlando lodge should sympathize with Nationals discomfort.
Those who are seeking the truth and post here on theos-talk are not the tribunal
it is National that has taken this aggressive and unspiritual action. They
created the problem to begin with and they should now be responsible for their
actions. This is a case on your part of misguided idealism. You are clearly
sympathizing with those who started this crises in the first place and not the
Orlando Lodge which is the recipient of National aggressive and predatory
Let's see if I understand your line of reasoning here Katinka I accuse you of
certain violations take all your assets and excommunicate you from the greater
theosophical society but because it might defame you I refuse to clarify what
the charges are that are being brought against you. Somebody needs a reality
check here Katinka. You are clearly siding with National and are not interested
in the facts. Blind obedience will never make a person into a true theosophist.
Can you not see the perverse logic you present here in this situation or
analysis on your part?
Katinka. "They know full well that they can't sign their own name, because that
would jeopardize their current or potentially future jobs.
DC. In the real world if you penalize someone and seize all of their assets you
have to state what the particular facts or charges are that have led up to this
act. To simply say that the accusers can say nothing further because it might
jeopardize their jobs is ludicrous and defies all common definitions of what is
considered as fair or right. If National and its official representatives are
not willing to stand behind their actions with information to support there
claims they should have never made them in the first place. They have affected
many good people's lives adversely and it is obvious from your statements that
they are looking out for their own best interest and not the interest of the
Your statement Katinka that " As in: if they publicly prove the misconduct of
the leaders of that lodge, they're definitely being unbrotherly".
This statement of yours quoting National is beyond my understanding that anybody
could make it on a public forum like theos-talk for future generations of
theosophists to read or examine. This perverse statement by National will go
down in theosophical history as a great travesty of justice. National takes away
Orlando's Charter, seizes all of their assets, disgrace them in front of the
whole theosophical world and then National rationalizes its behavior and
justifies why it cannot substantiate their actions because it might seem
I cannot understand Katinka why you cannot see the real issues here and keep
obscuring the truth with token gestures of goodwill and vague statements. In the
real world if you harm another person or group in any way you better be prepared
to justify why you did it.
Here in the US and all civilized countries a person or group is assumed
innocent until proven guilty by a court of law or by a jury of his pears. The
Orlando Lodge is innocent until proven guilty. Cannot you see that by National
failing to supply the facts this issue is not going away but simply grows in
intensity over time?
Katinka . Betty has no such anonymity to hide behind. She has the reputation of
the whole TSA to consider.
DC. Excuse me but what about the reputation of the Orlando lodge and why would
she need to hide behind anything if the facts she knows could justify National
aggressive behavior with the Orlando lodge.
Katinka. I can only confirm that I knew of these difficulties years ago, a I've
stated before. In fact: a search in the archives here ought to confirm much the
same thing. Even if going back a few years less than the trouble did actually
I do not think it's my place to publish private emails, so I'm not going to even
try to prove anything.
DC. It's nice of you to act as an intermediary for National but sooner or later
they are going to have to come out of hiding and justify their actions. Why
should you have to prove anything since it is not you who are being penalized?
Your statements Katinka that National cannot be more specific about its charges
and decision to pull the Orlando charter will in the long run become
counterproductive and ironically create the very thing they are attempting to
avoid which is accountability and transparency.
National is fast becoming an exclusive click and hierarchy that is so powerful
and self absorbed it thinks it can exist in its own self contained bubble or
subjective vacuum and exists outside of the law be it common law or spiritual
law. It appears to be looking out for its own good and is trying to hide behind
executive privileged. A ploy all political and religious systems use to avoid
any responsibility for their actions and keep a shroud of secrecy over the
In conclusion I regret to say when all things are considered National is looking
for conformity in its members and groups. Original thought or variations from
party politics will not be accepted. This attitude goes against the very fabric
of true theosophy which is to think for yourself and explore beyond the common
National has demonstrated it lacks moral fiber in its attempt to seize
Orlando's assets and charter and then refuses to take responsibility for its
actions by trying to cover its behavior behind a shroud of false altruism and
goodwill. It is such an irony and so contradictory that they don't want to
appear "unbrotherly" in the wake of their actions against the Orlando lodge that
is clearly unspiritual and is as far from brotherhood as anyone could ever
imagine. And people are baffled by why theosophy is on the decline.
Blessings to those who live in the truth and may karma be swift and just to
those who use theosophy as a veneer for their own personal agendas.
From: t_s_theosophist <THEOSOPHIST@ohuCEJYrTPWYY2_vXNDKnLlLWL5R9NdU4DCHZNa56Hw82EFbEwJrCgzxFILpYsO6cdW1goKngPumsU6ObNqELQ.yahoo.invalid>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 4:47:44 PM
Subject: theos-talk KATINKAS MIS-INFORFMATION
Katinnka has every right to express her opinions. However she has no right to
continue to spread mis-information and make unfounded allegations and give the
airs that she is privy to "secret information" about issues concerning Orlando
Lodge. She has NO information, only her assumptions and opinion.
She has also laced her comments with outright LIES. She has never had any
contacts with members at Orlando Lodge. And the responses from Orlando Lodge
have never been anonymous. I always back up my
responses and posts with my name.
I have nothing to hide.
Katinka is very good at gossip mongering and meddeling in things
which she has no direct information about. She admits that she has no
documentation, which right there blows a huge hole in her credibility.
Lets stick to FACTS, Documented
Facts, and stop the innuendo and libelous gossip.
A challenge to Katinka, are you up to Playing Fair, and Above board,
and stopping the rumor mongering?
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