Orlando Lodge Innocent until proven guilty!!!
May 06, 2011 04:42 AM
by Duane Carpenter
ÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂÂ The Orlando Lodge is innocent until proven guilty.
Katinka we are trying to get at the truth here and you have clearly not offered
any new clarity to the ongoing controversy.
Orlando Lodge loses its charter and all of its assets and your comment here
about people who are trying to get at the truth as "online rants" lacks
compassion and an understanding of the issues involved. What a callous attitude
you have adopted when so many at the Orlando lodge are forced to experience such
anguish over their possible futures.
Katinka: I totally agree that it would have been good if more specific
information was forthcoming. However, a few years ago a Dutch lodge in my region
got expelled. In that case there had been financial issues. Before the lodge was
expelled, it went all the way up to Radha, as it has gone in this case too.
DC. Are you inferring here Katinka that the Orlando situation is about financial
Katinka: Lodges getting expelled has been a rare but regular occurrence for over
Personally I think the opinion of the federation is way more relevant than mine
is, or yours: they've had to work with these people, so they're opinion is based
on more than reading online rants by people with nothing better to do than write
DC. People are seeking clarification here because they have been done what
appears as an injustice and you flippantly relegate their inquiries to "online
rants". I wonder how you would feel if your website and Theosophical blog had
been up and running for 75 years and then without any clarity around the charges
just shut down and all of your assets seized.
Katinka. ÂBetty bland and the TSA in general are in a bind here: they're being
accused at an online tribunal. But they can't defend themselves to anybodies
satisfaction without defaming the members of the Orlando lodge.
DC. Lets not put the cart before the horses here. National started the lawsuit,
a lawsuit that until its accusations are proven by facts is not justifiable. And
you think we or the Orlando lodge should sympathize with Nationals discomfort.
Those who are seeking the truth and post here on theos-talk are not the tribunal
it is National that has taken this aggressive and unspiritual action. They
created the problem to begin with and they should now be responsible for their
actions. This is a case on your part of misguided idealism. You are clearly
sympathizing with those who started this crises in the first place and not the
Orlando Lodge which is the recipient of National aggressive and predatory
Let's see if I understand your line of Âreasoning here Katinka I accuse you of
certain violations take all your assets and excommunicate you from the greater
theosophical society but because it might defame you I refuse to clarify what
the charges are that are being brought against you. Somebody needs a reality
check here Katinka. You are clearly siding with National and are not interested
in the facts. Blind obedience will never make a person into a true theosophist.
Can you not see the perverse logic you present here in this situation or
analysis on your part?
Katinka. "They know full well that they can't sign their own name, because that
would jeopardize their current or potentially future jobs.
DC. In the real world if you penalize someone and seize all of their assets you
have to state what the particular facts or charges are thatÂ have led up to this
act. To simply say that the accusers can say nothing further because it might
jeopardize their jobs is ludicrous and defies all common definitions of what is
considered as fair or right. If National and its official representatives are
not willing to stand behind their actions with information to support there
claims they should have never made them in the first place. They have affected
many good people's lives adversely and it is obvious from your statements that
they are looking out for their own best interest and not the interest of the
ÂYour statement Katinka that " As in: if they publicly prove the misconduct of
the leaders of that lodge, they're definitely being unbrotherly".
This statement of yours quoting National is beyond my understanding that anybody
could make it on a public forum like theos-talk for future generations of
theosophists to read or examine. This perverse statement by National will go
down in theosophical history as a great travesty of justice. National takes away
Orlando's Charter, seizes all of their assets, disgrace them in front of the
whole theosophical world and then National rationalizes its behavior and
justifies why it cannot substantiate their actions because it might seem
ÂI cannot understand Katinka why you cannot see the real issues here and keep
obscuring the truth with token gestures of goodwill and vague statements. In the
real world if you harm another person or group in any way you better be prepared
to justify why you did it.
ÂHere in the US and all civilized countries a person or group is assumed
innocent until proven guilty by a court of law or by a jury of his pears. The
Orlando Lodge is innocent until proven guilty. Cannot you see that by National
failing to supply the facts this issue is not going away but simply grows in
intensity over time?
Katinka . Betty has no such anonymity to hide behind. She has the reputation of
the whole TSA to consider.
DC. Excuse me but what about the reputation of the Orlando lodge and why would
she need to hide behind anything if the facts she knows could justify National
aggressive behavior with the Orlando lodge.
Katinka. I can only confirm that I knew of these difficulties years ago, a I've
stated before. In fact: a search in the archives here ought to confirm much the
same thing. Even if going back a few years less than the trouble did actually
I do not think it's my place to publish private emails, so I'm not going to even
try to prove anything.
DC. It's nice of you to act as an intermediary for National but sooner or later
they are going to have to come out of hiding and justify their actions. Why
should you have to prove anything since it is not you who are being penalized?
Your statements Katinka that National cannot be more specific about its charges
and decision to pull the Orlando charter will in the long run become
counterproductive and ironically create the very thing they are attempting to
avoid which is accountability and transparency.
National is fast becoming an exclusive click and hierarchy that is so powerful
and self absorbed it thinks it can exist in its own self contained bubble or
subjective vacuum and exists outside of the law be it common law or spiritual
law. It appears to be looking out for its own good and is trying to hide behind
executive privileged. ÂA ploy all political and religious systems use to avoid
any responsibility for their actions and keep a shroud of secrecy over the
In conclusion I regret to say when all things are considered National is looking
for conformity in its members and groups. Original thought or variations from
party politics will not be accepted. ÂThis attitude goes against the very fabric
of true theosophy which is to think for yourself and explore beyond the common
ÂNational has demonstrated it lacks moral fiber in its attempt to seize
Orlando's assets and charter and then refuses to take responsibility for its
actions by trying to cover its behavior behind a shroud of false altruism and
goodwill. It is such an irony and so contradictory that they don't want to
appear "unbrotherly" in the wake of their actions against the Orlando lodge that
is clearly unspiritual ÂÂand is as far from brotherhood as anyone could ever
imagine. And people are baffled by why theosophy is on the decline.
Blessings to those who live in the truth and may karma be swift and just to
those who use theosophy as a veneer for their own personal agendas.
From: t_s_theosophist <THEOSOPHIST@jSUnE3KdQazRF3Enw4niGCktOSJDxECCd0wBNqaIkxk4jvSLDQDxLdH9Rg2YULCSg7vXbpKH6rnYQpckWLyX.yahoo.invalid>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 4:47:44 PM
Subject: theos-talk KATINKAS MIS-INFORFMATION
Katinnka has every right to express her opinions. However she has no right to
continue to spread mis-information and make unfounded allegations and give the
airs that she is privy to "secret information" about issues concerning Orlando
Lodge. She has NO information, only her assumptions and opinion.
She has also laced her comments with outright LIES. She has never had any
contacts with members at Orlando Lodge. And the responses from Orlando Lodge
have never been anonymous. I always back up my
responses and posts with my name.
I have nothing to hide.
Katinka is very good at gossip mongering and meddeling in things
which she has no direct information about. She admits that she has no
documentation, which right there blows a huge hole in her credibility.
Lets stick to FACTS, Documented
Facts, and stop the innuendo and libelous gossip.
A challenge to Katinka, are you up to Playing Fair, and Above board,
and stopping the rumor mongering?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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