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Re: theos-talk Re: New Chinese Law Banning Dalai Lama Reincarnation

Feb 15, 2011 07:33 AM
by Augoeides-222

John W, 
Thanks for your reply and comments. I will reply after i read more of your post. In the mean time might I recommend viewing a Documentary of a search for a high Lama Tulku in Tibet by the very heart drop disciple of that lama. "The Unmistaken Child" it is an amazing demonstration of the means used to determine the authentic Tulku child, and feature the Dalai Lama and many of the High Lama's of Lhasa and other Monastery's, even on on Taiwan where the monk uses Horary astrology and certain calculations are seen being made by that Lama. This is a rare screening showing things I have never seen shown to a public before. One of the most moving heartfelt scenes is when the real past life disciples of the Tulku line the highway leading to the Temple all smiling in joy and waving Tibetan sacred color scarves at him as he passes by them in the car some are crying with joy to see him once more before them. 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John W" <> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 5:56:44 AM 
Subject: theos-talk Re: New Chinese Law Banning Dalai Lama Reincarnation 

Of course, there is NO WAY that the Chinese could possibly prevent H.H. the Dalai Lama (see , , , from reincarnating, if/when he wants to, whether by law or military force, because be could simply be born into one of the many Tibetan Buddhist communities outside China or Chinese-occupied Tibet. 

BTW, I think I remember hearing somewhere that H.H. the Dalai Lama said that if he dies in exile, he would be reincarnated in exile, but if he dies in Tibet, he would be reincarnated in Tibet. It is is looking increasingly unlikely that he will die in Tibet, he being already 75, although 
his horoscope (sunrise, 6 a.m., Amdo, Tibet, 6th July 1935) indicates 
that he has the potential to live MUCH longer. As with the 13th Dalai Lama in the early 1930s (see,_13th_Dalai_Lama ), not long before he dies, he would leave signs as to where to look for the rebirth of his next incarnation, if he intends so returning. 

Also, the young 17th Karmapa Lama (see , , , ), now at Dharamsala, India, is supposed to be third in the Tibetan Buddhist spiritual hierarchy, after the Dalai Lama, and the 11th Panchen (or Tashi) Lama. The latter, after being reborn in Tibet in 1990 following the death of the 10th in 1989 at age 51 (suddenly at Shigatse in Tibet where he had been installed as a puppet by the Chinese, after giving a speech criticizing the Chinese), was taken prisoner at age 6 by the Chinese, and has disappeared and possibly been murdered; see , , , , , . 

What do you think of the recent allegations that the 17th Karmapa Lama might in fact be a spy for China? His escape from Tibet through Nepal over the Himalayas in 1999, at the age of 14 (he was born on 26th June 1985 following the death of the 16th in 1981), was under dramatic circumstances, making world headlines; but the ease of it is somewhat suspicious because Chinese border security on Tibet's borders, at least since the 1990s, has lately been much tighter than it was in 1959 when the Dalai Lama escaped from Tibet near the eastern end of the border with India. It is looking even murkier because there is a rival Karmapa Lama, born in 1983 and officially endorsed by the Chinese (see , ), who has set up shop in New Delhi. 

See for the latest news, particularly about the Karmapa's cash : 

John W. 

--- On Tue, 15/2/11, <> wrote: 
From: <.......... > 
Subject: theos-talk 
Re: New Chinese Law Banning Dalai Lama Reincarnation 
Date: Tuesday, 15, February, 2011, 10:35 AM 

Speaking about Tibetans, there are some interesting developments in the 
Tibetan community in India. Never underestimate the ability of those 
supposedly enlightened lamas to go nuts. 

Quest for crown uncovers Tibetan politicking 

The tale of two Karmapas 

Tibetan Buddhism the Western way 

China gains from India's Tibetan bungle 
(in 3 parts) 

Excerpts from the last article: 

China is looking on with a certain amount of satisfaction as India 
bungles the management of a key anti-China strategic asset - the Tibetan 
emigre and indigenous ethnic Tibetan Buddhist communities in north India 
- with a high-profile, borderline xenophobic campaign against the 
Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje, a young monk widely viewed as the 
designated successor to the Dalai Lama as the symbol of Tibetan culture, 
religion and national aspirations. 

Indian newspapers have been filled with accusations of financial 
misconduct, intention to evade currency and real estate laws, and, most 
provocatively, the claim that the Karmapa is a Chinese mole, receiving 
bricks of Chinese cash that he intended to use to establish a string of 
pro-Chinese monasteries on the Indian side of the border. 

The story of the Karmapa is also the story of violent, bloody and 
ometimes fatal struggles within Tibetan Buddhism, within the Kagyu sect 
itself, and the determination of India's security establishment to 
control Tibetan Buddhist affairs in the sensitive border regions. 

....the Dalai Lama's decidedly un-Buddhist brother, Gyalo Thondup - who 
was the US Central Intelligence Agency liaison for the secret war 
against the Chinese occupation of Tibet - spearheaded the creation of a 
"united front" that would centralize the control of the fractious emigre 
community and sects under the control of the government in exile in 
Dharmsala. The other sects were apparently loathe to bow to Gelugpa 
control and formed their own political organization, the "Fourteen 
Settlements" group under the leadership of Gungthang Tsultrim. 

In 1977, Gungthang was assassinated. His assassin allegedly told police 
that he had been paid $35,000 to commit the crime by the 
government-in-exile, and further alleged that he had been promised a 
bounty of double that amount to kill the current Karmapa. 

The situation was complicated by a split within the Kagyu sect itself 
upon the death of the 16th Karmapa in 1981.The conflict boils down to 
the rivalry between two Rinpoche in the Kagyu order, Tai Situ Rinpoche 
and Shamar Rinpoche ("Rinpoche" is an honorific typically applied to 
reincarnated lamas). 

Tai Situ Rinpoche claimed to have found a secret note from the 16th 
Karmapa that directed him to the boy subsequently acknowledged by the 
Dalai Lama and enthroned in 1992 as Ogyen Trinley Dorje, the 17th 

Shamar Rinpoche had none of that, asserting that a dream led him to a 
different Karmapa, one Trinley Thaye Dorje, whom he quietly brought to 
India from the PRC and enthroned in 1994. 

Adherents of Shamar Rinpoche consider Ogyen Trinley Dorje's 
acknowledgement by the Dalai Lama as a piece of low, Gelugpa 
skullduggery. An America student of Shamar Rinpoche, Erik Curren, wrote 
a book on the Karmapa controversy titled "Buddha's Not Smiling". Talking 
to Asia Times, Mr Curren characterized the elevation of Ogyen Trinley 
Dorje as a virtual coup d'etat against the Kagyu sect by the Dalai Lama, 
with the intention of elevating an easily-manipulated son of nomads to 
the position of Karmapa. 

Shamar Rinpoche's followers have also hinted that a neutral Rinpoche was 
murdered during the trip to Tibet to find Ogyen Trinley Dorje so he 
wouldn't complicate the selection process. They have also alleged that 
the young man now in Dharmsala isn't even Ogyen Trinley Dorje at all. 

A 1998 suit filed by a follower of Shamar Rinpoche further accused Tai 
Situ Rinpoche-and the Dalai Lama and his brother-of scheming to seize 
Rumtek, destabilize Sikkim, and hand it over to the Chinese. 

Certainly, beyond pleasant Buddhist platitudes concerning universal 
brotherhood, Tai Situ Rinpoche has made no secret of his efforts to 
re-establish his position inside Tibet with the help of the Chinese 

He has rebuilt his traditional seat, Palpung Monastery, in western 
Sichuan province. His lavish website offers gorgeous views of the 
monastery and states that 300 students and 50 monks reside there. 

For its part, the Chinese government appears to encourage the 
establishment of Tibetan organizations overseas that are affiliated with 
partisans of Tai Situ Rinpoche and promote Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 

After a car belonging to an associate of the Karmapa was inspected on 
January 26 (itself perhaps an indication of heightened scrutiny), 
revealing a suitcase of cash, the Karmapa's residence - the Gyuto 
Tantric Buddhist and University - was raided. The eager Indian press was 
deluged with information concerning the suspicious mounds of cash - 
allegedly worth US$1 million if the face value of supposedly counterfeit 
rupees was counted - found in the residence, including the equivalent of 
over one hundred thousand US dollars in yuan notes. 

The anti-Karmapa wind in the Indian press continued with the Times of 
India reporting that crucial medical records - that might have revealed 
the Karmapa as an over-age imposter - had vanished. 

India's The Telegraph provided the insinuations-or trial balloons - from 
inside the Indian government concerning the Karmapa's possible arrest 
and deportation as a Chinese "agent of influence." 


Re: theos-talk New Chinese Law Banning Dalai Lama Reincarnation 
Tuesday, 15 February, 2011 3:47 AM 
From: <> 

This is a little bit like Russia banning religion. Religion 
just went underground, and the people kept their faith and their 
churches, alive anyway.. You cannot control a people's heart and mind, or 
their will, just their overt actions. 

-----Original Message----- 

To: theos-talk < > 
Sent: Mon, Feb 14, 2011 8:38 am 
Subject: theos-talk New Chinese Law Banning Dalai Lama Reincarnation 

An interesting development regarding Tibet. Chinese Govt is trying to take 
control of Tibetans by taking over an issue that is close to the heart of 
all Tibetans. Read the full story at: 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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