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Re: Theos-World Candles and the Sun

Oct 27, 2009 05:59 AM
by MKR

Every theosophist has their own opinion on every matter. That freedom of
opinion that differentiates theosophists from everyone else. If you put 100
theosophists in a room, they will have 1000 opinions. As chuck used to
comment, there may be a fight if 100 theosophists are there and the
atmosphere is right.


On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Rose <> wrote:

> I can understand the puritian sentiments of the times a century ago...
> But do today's Theosophist hold anti-masterbation sentiments in general?
> If so why?
> -Rosie
> On Oct 26, 2009, at 4:01 PM, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <
> <>> wrote:
> Dear Martin
> Thanks.
> One might add the extremely stunning words from B. Keightley:
> "Mrs. Besant and the Alcyone Case"
> And let us not forget who B. Keightley really was (Mr. Bertram Keightly is
> a Barrister-
> at-Law, and was the General Secretary of the Indian Section and also of the
> British Section of the Theosophical Society. He was also a member of the
> Esoteric School), - when Besant received her first clairvoyance, august
> 1895, according to CWL himself:
> Remember, these words was uttered at Court under Oath.
> Here are all five pages:
> Evidence for the Plaintiff.
> On the 27th of March, Counsel read some of the
> evidence taken before the Commissioner, (see Chapter
> 9) ; and it has been found necessary to condense this
> here owing to want of space.
> Mr. Bertram Keightly, residing at Allahabad,
> United Province, being examined said :-
> "
> I am a Master of Arts and Barrister-at-Law. I
> was the General Secretary of the Indian Section of the
> Theosophical Society for several years and subsequently
> General Secretary of the British Section. I was the
> sole agent of the Esoteric Section in India under Madame
> Blavatsky. I was also a member of the General
> Council of the Theosophical Society, both ex-officio
> as General Secretary and subsequently. I know Mr,
> Leadbeter. I first met him in 1884, when he was a
> Curate of the Church of England. He left Ceylon in
> 1890, to the best of my belief. During the last fifteen
> years he has been one of the prominent leaders as also
> the writers and lecturers in the Theosophical movement.
> So he stands to the world as a teacher of Theosophy.
> He is a colleague of Mrs. Besant in Theosophical
> work ; and both of them are considered as "initiates
> "
> by
> some people.
> I remember the charges brought against Mr. Leadbeter
> by the American Section in 1906, and I believe
> the charges were brought on behalf of the American
> Section. Mr. Leadbeter was at that time a member of
> 118
> the British Section. He was also Presidential delegate.
> I believe a memorial was addressed to Mrs. Besant from
> America, giving evidence and charges against Mr. Leadbeter,
> and a copy of this memorial was sent to Mr.
> Leadbeter in 1906, but I could not be sure whether
> this was sent prior to the proceedings of the Advisory
> Committee or simultaneously. Mrs. Besant was certainly
> in India at the date of the Advisory Committee,
> and Mr. Leadbeter was present at the Committee in
> London. I believe the Executive of the American
> Section pressed for a searching investigation, and Mrs.
> Besant wrote a reply to the Memorial that had been
> sent to her from America, rather putting aside the idea
> of investigation. The American Section could not expel
> Mr. Leadbeter from the Society and that was why the
> President was moved in the matter. Colonel Olcott
> called together an Advisory Committee, consisting of the
> Executive Committee of the British Section, v/ith the
> addition of the representative of the French Section
> and a special representative on behalf of the American
> Section. I was one of the members of the Committee,
> the object of which was to advise Colonel Olcott in
> regard to what action he should take in respect of the
> charges brought against Mr. Leadbeter. The Committee
> was not in the position of a jury, but in that of an
> advisory body. The object of the enquiry v/as to uphold
> the honour of the Theosophical Society and keep its
> honour clean."
> Q.-' The Theosophical Society wanted to disown
> any association with a man who advocated the teaching
> of ... .- to young boys ?"
> 119
> (( A.- Yes.
> "
> Q.-" The charges were in the hands of each of
> the members of the Committee ?"
> A.-" Yes.
> "
> Q.-" Was Mr. Leadbeter given every opportunity
> to explain his position and justify his conduct? '*
> A.-"Yes."
> Q.-"
> Will you tell us what evidence you had at
> that time. ?
> "
> A.-"
> Speaking generally, and from memory only,
> I believe we had before us the confessions or rather
> admissions of one or more boys in America certified
> by the American Executive and also a letter of Mr.
> Leadbeter to Mr. FuUerton in which the former admitted
> having advised . . . .-. .... as a
> prophylactic measure."
> Being shewn a copy of Mr. Leadbeter's letter to
> Mr. FuUerton and asked to summarise the contents,
> witness said :-
> "
> Mr. Leadber states that the work of discovering
> and training liopeful young members of the Theosophical
> Society has been put into his charge. He finds that the
> .question of sex is of vital importance in their training,
> and that in the majority of cases great mischief results
> from suppressed thoughts and desires on such matters.
> He therefore in certain cases advised "".".'''"--=""."'.
> ^'Â
> Q.- This is exactly what he stated before the
> Committee ?"
> 120
> A.- Yes, both in the letter and before the Committee
> he emphasised the absence of any evil intention
> in connection with that advice."
> Q.-" The Committee was also of opinion that he
> had no evil intent ?
> "
> A.-"
> Yes, at first, but later his replies to questions
> put by members of the Committee caused some of themto
> come to a different conclusion." (Here witness
> entered into details that are not suitable for public
> reading).
> Q.-** Mr. Leadbeter referred to an organisation for
> young men which dealt with the matter in the same
> manner ?
> "
> A.-"
> Yes. He stated that such an organisation
> existed in the English Church."
> Q.-^" And he said that he expected it to be found
> in the Roman Catholic Church ?
> "
> A.--"Yes."
> Q.- Did Mr. Leadbeter express any regret for
> having taught these practices ?
> "
> A.-" No."
> Q.-Questioned as to the acceptance of the resignation
> of Mr. Leadbeter, witness said that some of the
> members of the Advisory Committee only agreed to its
> acceptance in order to secure unanimity in the decision
> of the Committee.
> Q.- State briefly what you know about the
> re-instatement of Mr. Leadbeter in the Society and the*
> consequences that ensued thereupon."
> 121
> A.-" When Mrs. Besant became a candidate for
> the Presidency of the Theosophical Society, she gave a
> pledge to the British Section not to move for the reinstatement
> of Mr. Leadbeter to the Society for two
> years from the summer of 1907. But before theexpiration
> of that time a strong agitation had sprung upin
> various parts of the Society in favour of Mr.
> Leadbeter's re-instatement. This culminated in the
> question being referred to the general vote of the Society
> at the close of 1908, or the beginning of 1909. A
> considerable majority having declared in favour of hisre-
> instatement, the result was the resignation from the
> Theosophical Society of a large number of the oldest
> and most respected members and a withdrawal fronn
> active work of many others."
> Q.-" You withdrew from the Society ?
> "
> A.-**
> I withdrew from active work in the Society."
> Cross-examined by Mrs. Besant, witness said that
> he left the Eastern School about 1908, after the
> decision of the Council with regard to Mr. Leadbeter.
> He did not hold the opinion that no boy should be put
> under Mr. Leadbeter's care until after the enquiry in
> 1906, although he had objected to Mr. Leadbeter's having
> his pupils sleeping in the same room as himself,,
> and had pointed out to Mrs. Besant how undesirable it
> was while Mr. Leadbeter was living at Avenue Road.
> Mrs. Besant ** You think that because people agree
> with me, they must be non-independent?"
> Witness.-"
> By no means, but when people tell me
> in all seriousness that a thing must be true because Mrsr
> 122
> Besant says it, whatever the evidence and facts may
> he, I cannot attach any high value to their opinion.'*
> Counsel in the course of reading Mr. Keightly's
> .evidence, remarked that the final decision of the Advisory
> Committee that met in 1906 was decided by Mr.
> Leadbeter's own statements, and an attempt was made
> by Mrs. Besant to justify the teaching.
> To this Mrs. Besant replied that she found the
> charges to be false, so she changed."
> I find B. Keightley to be a very credible witness.
> So I wonder what on earth those self-proclaimed Arhats were doing but to
> throw the TS down the gutter?
> M. Sufilight
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Martin
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 4:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Candles and the Sun
> I join your View Morten, so you'r not alone anymore :)
> ________________________________
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <<>
> >
> To: <>
> Sent: Sun, October 25, 2009 9:10:14 AM
> Subject: Fw: Theos-World Candles and the Sun
> Dear Do Thi Thuan and friends
> My views are:
> I am resending this e-mail to Theos-talk because some e-mails appears to
> get stuck before they arrive at Theos-talk, while others do not.
> And let me say, that the below e-mail is merely being sent because I find
> that the questions asked need to be clairified to the Seekers after truth as
> long as Annie Besant is being praised at TS Adyar as a great leader, as long
> as J. Krishnamurti is being forwarded as someone to - merely be believed -
> to be a World Teacher and a Messiah.
> Here we go again:
> So "Pathless" is not Pathless, but Path after all; and we are expected to
> find a clear spiritual logic in such a point of view?
> And a Guru is just a crutch, which is a nuisance?
> And comparative studying is unimportant; what is important is only to
> listen to J. Krishnamurti, who never praised any teaching but his own?
> And a Messiah-craze is the best theoosphy can arrive at?
> H. P. Blavatsky wrote:
> I somehow find it difficult to relate the above by H. P. Blavatsky with
> what J. Krishnamurti taught and was representing as a Messiah-craze with
> ribbons, badges, and J.K. insignia.
> M. Sufilight
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