Re: Theos-World Re: A TS member's observation on non-existent Problem
Jul 29, 2009 10:16 PM
by preethi muthiah
In ordinary English, a messenger means a message bearer and generally, a message bearer bears messages from someone else. That is he serves as someone else's voice. So whose voice are you bearing?
Just curious. And i hope you don't at all mind that i will choose to call you MKR even though you seem to prefer to be known as messenger.
--- On Wed, 29/7/09, Messenger <email@example.com> wrote:
From: Messenger <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: A TS member's observation on non-existent Problem
Date: Wednesday, 29 July, 2009, 5:57 PM
Everyone knows who Anton is. It was never my intention to question his
identity. If there is even slightest misperception that I am doubting his
identity, my personal apologies to him.
In all my messages posted here and elsewhere, I speak only for myself. This
I have stated before. This continues today and will be so in the future. I
am just an ordinary member and I have not held any office nor plan to hold
any in the future. So my position should be clear to everyone.
I signed as Messenger so that no one confuses between message and the
messenger. As I mentioned in my msg, I will soon post a msg discussing the
issues, in my opinion, important to the TS today. Please keep tuned.
Messenger aka MKR
visit www.theosophy. net
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 4:59 AM, Anton Rozman <anton_rozman@ yahoo.com>wrote:
> Hi Ramadoss,
> Or should I now call you Messenger (of some formal or informal group)?
> The passage you presented is extracted from the topic I opened on the
> Theosophical Community under the title: "Have we a problem?"
> http://theosophical .ning.com/ forum/topics/ have-we-a- problem
> The specific words are those of Will Morrow in his Comment 7687:
> http://theosophical .ning.com/ forum/topics/ have-we-a- problem?page= 1&commentId= 2060685%3ACommen t%3A7687& x=1#2060685Comme nt7687
> So, those interested can check the entire discussion to see those words in
> proper context, but here is my reply to those Will Morrow's words as posted
> on the Community:
> "I naturally supposed and wrote that there will be probably many who will
> have different opinion. I don't have problem with that and do not force
> anyone to change it.
> I hope that this relatively new way of free expression of ideas and views
> through internet will be sooner or later regarded as an enrichment of
> Society's life. But as every new thing it obviously provokes some doubts."
> In your extract (below) you additionally substituted the name of Joe
> (Fulton) with xxx probably because in that comment (later on deleted because
> Joe left the Theosophical Community) Joe actually supported my views about
> lack of common vision concerning the nature of the Theosophical Society.
> "This has happened many times before (As seen in xxx's - Joe's - comment
> below - where all of those who believed their sectarianism was THE correct
> one started their own TS) and will continue."
> More over, this lack of common vision is one of the "hot" topics on the
> Theosophical Network and I understand its slogan "Embrace-Compare- Explore"
> as one of the attempts to define it more clearly. Anyway, we will see if Joe
> has anything to say on this.
> You wrote: "When we look at the discussions on operational matters of TS
> brought up by some, many frequent participants and others have contributed
> their views and arguments. Some were very passionate. In the case of some of
> them, many had serious doubts about their real identities especially when
> unsubstantiated allegations were made by them."
> So, you avoid addressing me directly to check my real identity and you call
> views I present "unsubstantiated allegations" . Why? I have no problem to
> offer you my personal data which you anyway know all too well as you know
> well my views which are equally publicly presented on my web site and on
> e-mail lists. But if this is not enough for you then come here in Koper and
> check all you want personally. But this is not the point, isn't it?
> No, you rather hide behind those "many" who "had serious doubts" and who
> hide their identity on the Theosophical Community and the Theosophical
> Network behind various symbols and actually spread "unsubstantiated
> allegations" as I didn't see any serious analysis of the current situation
> in the TS from the part of persons of this (formal or informal) group of
> "But when disguise is used to avoid personal responsibility for their
> statements, it is a wholly different matter. We know what happens when the
> disguise is about to be unmasked. They disappear, not to be seen again.."
> So, maybe you could start in first place to identify who are "we", "many",
> Messenger of which group or network you are and what are actually your group
> views on the current situation in the TS and its future besides supporting
> the illegal activity of the TS President and Mr. Pedro Oliveira.
> You know, the methods you use are very familiar to me as they were used
> against me by Communist Party and its political police and now their
> "democratic" successors, as well as by Head of my theosophical mother lodge,
> so I have something less than thirty years of experience with this kind of
> operation. And I can equally understand your disappointment when I didn't
> want to accept your proposed unethical behavior towards those who contact me
> as this also happened many times before.
> I don't fear the consequences for, as I already said, I don't have much to
> loose. But I certainly don't want to loose my human right for personal
> freedom and free expression of views and ideas. I don't have intention to
> disappear or to finish my life yet although it would be great relief as I am
> really tired to fight this unequal battle.
> So, go ahead and good luck,
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>,
> Messenger <mkr777@...> wrote:
> > A TS memberÃââs observation on non-existent Problem
> > Sometime ago, a very observant TS member wrote in an online forum:
> > ÃâËIt appears to me that the difference in our opinion is the premise you
> > state: "that Theosophical Society has definite difficulties in its
> > functioning and further on assumed that these difficulties are related to
> > the: .. Lack of clear common vision about the nature of our Society.Ãâ
> > Many of us don't see it the way you present it and therefore don't agree
> > with either your presumption that there is a problem or your presumed
> > solution to a non-existant problem. This recent activity identifying the
> > "difficulties" within the TS appears to simply be the campaigning by
> > individuals (yourself included) to project their own ideas onto the
> > membership at large. This has happened many times before (As seen in
> > comment below - where all of those who believed their sectarianism was
> > correct one started their own TS) and will continue..Ãâ
> > When we look at the discussions on operational matters of TS brought up
> > some, many frequent participants and others have contributed their views
> > and arguments. Some were very passionate. In the case of some of them,
> > had serious doubts about their real identities especially when
> > unsubstantiated allegations were made by them. But when disguise is used
> > avoid personal responsibility for their statements, it is a wholly
> > matter. We know what happens when the disguise is about to be unmasked.
> > They disappear, not to be seen again.
> > In the light of the above and other discussions on this list, it is time
> > look at and see what are the real immediate key issues around the TS
> > it is worthwhile to concentrate our efforts. I will try to discuss them
> in a
> > message I plan to post soon.
> > Messenger (aka MKR)
> > Visit www.theosophy. net and enjoy
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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