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Jul 22, 2009 09:49 AM
by Messenger

Thanks Mike. It may be a good idea for including it in Eldon's Theos-World
magazine which has a good circulation.

Messenger (MKR)

On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:29 AM, mikeschwager26 <> wrote:

> Dr. Amit Goswami is the author of the new book, "Creative Evolution: A
> Physicist's Resolution between Darwinism and Intelligent Design" [Quest
> Books]. Dr. Goswami is a pioneer in using quantum physics to articulate the
> paradigm shift from a materialist to a consciousness-based worldview. He
> earned his doctorate from Calcutta University in theoretical nuclear
> physics. He is Professor Emeritus at the University of Oregon, where he
> taught physics from 1968 to 2003.
> [NOTE: See Amazon listing:
> ]
> Dr. Goswami first developed the premise of a consciousness vs. materialist
> view in his highly acclaimed The Self-Aware Universe. Books that followed
> include The Visionary Window, Physics of the Soul and The Quantum Doctor.
> His research on creativity in the 1980s led to his book Quantum Creativity.
> His text book on Quantum Mechanics has been used in many major universities.
> Dr. Gaswami is the subject of a forthcoming documentary entitled The Quantum
> Activist.
> Mike Schwager, Editor-in-Chief of, recently interviewed Amit
> Goswami.
> MS: Dr. Amit Goswami, it's really wonderful to have you here on
> Welcome.
> AG: Thank you.
> MS: You are an adherent to the view that it's neither random evolution as
> Darwin posited, nor so-called Creationism minus Evolution, but Evolution
> guided by Consciousness or Intelligent Design. Is that right?
> AG: Yes that is right. In fact, I point out that data, if looked upon
> objectively without emotion, without attachment to particular theory, has
> been pointing to this direction for quite some time. There are the fossil
> gaps, there is the absolutely indisputable biological era of time from
> simplicity to complexity. You just mentioned two pieces of data which cannot
> be understood in any other way but intelligent design through quantum
> evolution. For in the past, you've had epochs of evolution in which quantum
> leaps of creativity took place.
> MS: I see. Doctor, do these two words, Consciousness and Intelligence,
> carry the same meaning for you?
> AG: In my usage, I don't make much distinction because of the following
> reason. When this phrase, so-called artificial intelligence was coined a
> long time ago in the `50's, the idea was that intelligence is a
> characteristic of the mind which can be reciprocated by machines. The belief
> was probably one of the most pressing beliefs of materialism; and
> materialists wanted to show this and once and for all prove that the human
> mind is nothing more than a machine. But it turns out that in 30 years, not
> only that the machinists have not made much progress towards producing real
> intelligent machines, but the word intelligence has become clear to us.
> Mental intelligence has two aspects. One is of course to provide very
> articulate content. Machines could provide this articulate content.
> Artificial intelligence programmers could provide us with programs where a
> machine could easily fool you to think it is a sophisticated highly trained
> professional. For example there was a number in Canada you could call, and
> you would think you were talking to a California psychotherapist, only to
> find out after the hour that you had spoken with a machine!
> But then the philosopher Don Ferrell started complaining and he pointed out
> with very good argument that computers cannot process meaning. Mindâmental
> thoughtâhas two components. One is the content. But any amount of
> sophistication in the content - does that translate into the ability to
> process meaning? And it isn't that subtle. Because meaning is another level
> â a different logical category than content. And then this was proven by
> Roger Penrose, the physicist/mathematician at Oxford University, with very
> very "kosher" mathematics â a mystery by itself called Cordell's Theorum -
> that Penrose used to establish the fact on mathematical ground that meaning
> cannot be processed by a computer. Computers are symbol processing machines
> that can make representations of mental meaning, but that's it.
> MS: Let me become the visitor to this site to ask you some questions that
> may be in the mind of a non-scientist, okay? Intelligent Design. Are you
> saying that this intelligence permeates the Universe, underlies all Matter,
> is the ground of all Being â and actually spawned the Universeâthe physical
> Universe?
> AG: Yes. Underliesâhints at the correct word, which is a little more
> sophisticated and technical, but we'll have to use it. The right word is
> transcendenceâtranscends. This intelligent consciousness which can process
> symbols, meaning and beyond. It also has archetypes of meaning that we're
> only beginning to investigate with human intelligence developed so far. So
> this enormously intelligent consciousness, which not only has mental
> intelligence but also archetypal intelligence â this consciousness is the
> ground of all Being in such a way that it both transcends us and also is
> immanent in the world as we experience it. That's the correct statement.
> Now the words transcendence and immanence, agreed, is complicated, but I'll
> simplify it. Quantum physics allows us to simplify it. Transcendence has two
> components. One applies in space and time. This is the component where
> interactions occur through the exchange of signals. I'm talking to you now
> with local signals of sound passing from me to you and you to me. But
> another kind of communications exists in the world which in quantum physics
> is called non-local. Communication without signals.
> MS: Does that also mean outside of space and time?
> AG: Yes, it also means outside of space and time, but you have to put the
> word outside within quotes because if you just say "outside" the
> materialists can say well we can always enlarge space and time to include
> the outside because â so it's "outside" meaning it's really outside the
> premise of space and time, and trans-space and time. It's outside the
> premise because in space and time all interactions, as Einstein proved long
> ago, must occur through the intermediary of signals. But it is without
> signals, so it is outside of the very premise in which space and time
> occurs.
> MS: Yes. Tell me, is intention a characteristic of consciousness?
> AG: Intention is a fundamental characteristic of consciousness. It is
> through intention that evolution goes onâevolution starts and goes on until
> that intention is manifested. That intention is for consciousness to see
> itself in manifestation.
> MS: I would assume you would adhere to the current view that the Universe
> was spawned in an instantaneous flash called The Big Bang?
> AG: Well The Big Bang fits within this model but there are some interesting
> twists. What we say in quantum physics is that The Big Bang first begins, or
> is anchored, as possibility. In other words, the Universe of quantum
> possibilities must exist before the self-aware Beings develop.
> MS: Does that mean a propensity to actualize?
> AG: The propensity to actualize was created, but the ball of actualization
> does not manifest until a certain sophistication in the material
> arrangements of molecules is permitted by Evolution. So Evolution first
> begins as possibility, and when that sophistication in the arrangement of
> molecular configurations exist in an environment that is conducive to life,
> then the first living cells are created along with the world of the
> experience of that first living cell; and that event of transformation of
> quantum possibility into actuality, going all the way to The Big Bang â
> going back 13.7 or whatever the calculation is, billion years ago. Going
> back that long. Going backward in time. Manifesting the entire chain of
> events â Big Bang to galaxies to stars to planets toâ
> MS: It's literally mind-boggling!
> AG: (Laughing). Yes, it's mind-boggling. But you know we have verified this
> effect of dealer choice, our dealer choice effecting the state of molecules
> and electronsâ
> MS: My curiosity is aroused. I'd like to ask youâregarding the arrangement
> of that molecularization that made the possibility likelyâeven thatâwas
> there a purposiveness behind that do you think?
> AG: Of course. It is the sole purpose of that original intention.
> MS: So it was not an accident that the molecularization arrangement
> occurred?
> AG: There is no accident in the new view. In the new view, Evolution has to
> proceed in kind, because the rules are that the entire game will take place
> within the strict rules of the game that we call Science. So it's a game
> that this time around Consciousness plays within laws that we call Science,
> and it is that which makes it so fascinating this time.
> MS: Yes.
> AG: And so subject to misinterpretation, and that is to be expected.
> MS: Let me ask you, Doctor, would it be correct to presuppose that
> Intelligence, this high extraordinary Intelligence, preceded The Big Bang?
> That whatever there was prior to The Big Bang â there was this Intelligence
> already existent?
> AG: Of course. Notice that this solves a fundamental paradox that will
> always confront you if you don't solve it this way. And the paradox isâI've
> got to tell you this story about Augustine, St. Augustine. He always used to
> teach about God and Heaven and Hell and all that. So one day, it is said, a
> parishioner, a back bencher, a heckler, started heckling him, saying, "Hey
> Augustine, you're always talking about God and how He created heaven and
> hell. What was God doing before He created Heaven and Earth? Augustine was
> taken aback for a moment, but only a moment, saying "He was creating Hell
> but only for people who ask such questions!" (Laughs).
> MS: (Laughs).
> AG: But be that as it may, the question remains, what existed before The
> Big Bang? You can always ask that. And today we have theories of the
> inflationary Universe that lamely gives us a scenario â but again we can ask
> what existed before the inflation?
> If we recognize that Consciousness as the Ground of Being is an Eternity in
> which all possibilities past, present and future simultaneously co-exist, we
> easily recognize that in that reality there is no Time. Because
> Past-Present-Future, all possibilities co-exist, so there is no movement and
> there is no Time. And this is what philosophers, especially spiritual
> philosophers mean by Eternity. Nothing happens. Nothing ever happens.
> Literally. And this Eternity is always present. It was present before The
> Big Bang. It was present at the moment of The Big Bang. It is present now.
> And what we have, how we experience the world as we see it in Space and
> Time, is created moment to moment, by transforming quantum possibilities
> into actual events of experience.
> MS: And do you believeâwell first let me backtrackâthe so-called String
> Theory which gives some evidence or plausality to the possibility that there
> are multiple Universes and Dimensions. Do you feel that is a possibility?
> AG: I don't think that is not a possibility but I don't think that is
> relevant in this context.
> Because these other dimensions of Space and Time are ( ) anyway. And we're
> still talking about the manifest Universe. I'm talking about the unmanifest.
> MS: That's right. Now you were reared in the sacred Hindu tradition. Did
> the Hindu religion and culture inform your later scientific findings and
> views?
> AG: They did but at a later stage. In the initial stage, I must confess, I
> became a complete materialist following the enormous power of the
> materialist view.
> MS: So you almost rebelled against the spiritual view?
> AG: For a very good reason. When I learned Newton's work I could not but
> rebel. It made totally good sense to me. I remember I used to argue with my
> elder brother who used to say, "Electrons are making causal jumps from one
> orbit to another. How do you explain that?" And I would respond, "Only an
> ignorant like you (I used to talk to him like that) will talk like that.
> There is a very profound explanation. We say it's a concept. We don't say
> that electrons have free will. We say it's a causal event. So quantum
> physics has a causal event."
> MS: I'm curious. Did your spiritual view really come initially as the
> result of your later findings in physics?
> AG: My spiritual view took place as a sort of a discontent that I was
> living a very unhappy life as a physicist of the old paradigm of scientific
> materialism. Because I could not find any happiness there, and because my
> inherent belief, my intuitive belief was that it is possible to integrate
> life between science and everyday living, and until that integration happens
> there will be no happiness for me.
> So it is in that spirit that my journey began in 1973 and the fruition came
> in 1985. So during that 12 years, I gradually felt attracted towards
> spiritual practices that spiritual traditions suggest, and I certainly did
> practices in Hinduism, also Buddhismâ
> MS: So it all came together for you, so to speak?
> AG: It all came together for me in that recognition that Consciousness is
> the ground of all Being.
> MS: Doctor, this Consciousness, this Intelligence, am I correct in stating
> that it is a supra-intelligence, that in some spiritual circles we would
> call Divine Mind or God?
> AG: Yes, it is a super Intelligence that is indeed called Divine Mind and
> God, but a lot of misconceptions exist. For example, as soon as you have
> used the word "super" it will ring warning bells in the mind of a
> materialist who will immediately say that you are talking about super
> Nature, not about Nature. The word "super" has to be used with extreme
> caution. There is no super Nature in the new view, because quantum physics
> is already suggesting that quantum possibilities reside transcending
> ordinary Space-Time. This is just ordinary physics. Even Heisenberg said
> that. Heisenberg introduced the concept of Potentia, in which these
> possibility waves of quantum objects reside. And that is outside of
> "Space-Time" in the way I explained before.
> MS: Yes. Now on planet Earth, where we see the manifestation of Life, my
> own simple layman's observation isâwhich is becoming more acuteâthat all
> life carries intelligence, all life is intelligent.
> AG: Yes. All life carries intelligence, though if you define intelligence
> as mental intelligence, the ability to discern and process meaning â the
> meaning processing capacity develops at a much later stage.
> MS: Yes, I see. Right.
> AG: But if you allow feelingsâfeelings also have rudimentary meaningâ
> MS: Feelings, but also a certain awareness.
> AG: Yes, a certain basic awareness.
> MS: All life has a certain basic awarenessâ
> AG: A basic ability to cognate. This was recognized in fact, without using
> quantum physics. This was intuitive by the great Chilean biologist, Umberto
> Maturana.
> MS: I read in your book your reference to Jung's comment that the purpose
> of life is to move from unconsciousness to consciousness. Are you also
> saying that the intelligence in Intelligent Design has an unconscious aspect
> to it? We just spoke about Supra Intelligence, but is there an unconscious
> aspect to Intelligent Design?
> AG: Absolutely. This word "unconscious" is a little bit confusing because
> psychologists use it in a slightly different sense than we tend to use it in
> quantum physics. In quantum physics "unconscious" is whenever awareness -
> subject object awareness - is not present. In that sense, the unmanifest is
> unconscious. In psychology, there is a tendency to use it in slightly
> different form in the sense that it must be connected with memory. So in
> Freud's philosophy it comes from personal memory. In Jung's philosophy, it
> comes from collective memory. And so Jung's collective unconscious is much
> more general than Freud's and is very compatible with what spiritual
> traditions say.
> But in physics, the word "unconscious" means even more generally a place
> where possibilities interact with possibilities, but no collapse of the
> possibilities into actual events of experience takes place. So that includes
> then the kind of unconscious processing that is a precursor to the creative
> experience of insight.
> MS: You know, Doctor, I've always had this kind of intuition that indeed
> Consciousness was the ground of Being, and that it preceded materiality;
> that indeed, it made sense to me that materiality emerges out of
> Consciousness. I've always felt that way.
> The person who launched me on my own spiritual path â and you mention him
> in your book â is Teilhard de Chardin and his book, The Phenomenon of Man.
> AG: Aha.
> MS: I found the book, even though I didn't agree with all the theology,
> very appealing in that it posited the idea that there was an intersection
> between Science and Spirituality.
> AG: It is a great book.
> MS: And he was a great man, wasn't he? Truly great.
> AG: Yes, he was a great man. Along with Sri Aurobindo of India, who in the
> last century already had the idea of creative evolution taking us towards
> the supramental intelligence. Long before quantum physics interpreted it
> this way. Quantum physics was already around when they were alive. But the
> importance of quantum physics was not investigated properly. World War II
> stopped the progression of quantum physics towards this interpretation that
> came into vogue only in the 1 990s. And that is so unfortunate. Materialism
> evolved in the 1950s because we needed materialistic knowledge to come out
> of all the problems that were created.
> MS: What was very appealing to me about Teilhard and his book was when he
> developed a cosmology that referred to the Intelligent Design, obviously in
> Evolution, that he called the geosphere, out of which rose the biosphere,
> out of which rose the noosphere, or thought or human existence â and that it
> is going somewhere towards what he calls a convergence towards an Omega
> Point. How do you feel about that kind of cosmology?
> AG: I feel just fine. Except I don't think the Omega Point will be a point.
> I think when we develop the capacity of making direct representations of the
> supramental archetypes in matterâthis word sounds so vague today because of
> our limited evolution up until nowâbut the point is that why can't I love
> you because you are you and I am me because of that? We are two fellow human
> beings.
> The reason is this: I cannot love you because I don't have the capacity of
> making the representation of the intution of love that I do occasionally
> have. I make a mental representation and then I try to live my mental
> representation but that representation is going to be limited. It does not
> allow me to love any person just like that. It allows me to love only if you
> satisfy certain criteria. So it's a conditional love.
> So this intuition of unconditional loveâuntil that comes to us as a direct
> experience as oneness with youâI cannot truly love you. And this is of
> course what divides us into fractions because only if you agree with me it
> is easier to love you.
> MS: The non-egoic kind of loveâthe altruistic love.
> AG: The non-egoic kind of love which depends on a direct experience of the
> archetypes in a way that human beings rarely do.
> MS: And all the primary great Realized Masters, whether it was Buddha, or
> Jesus, or Krishna â they existed asthe founders of the great Wisdom
> Religions - they all spoke to this kind of love, right?
> AG: They all spoke to it, and they showed how to live like that.
> MS: Yes.
> AG: But we can't because we don't have the capacity of living like them,
> and really evolutionarily speaking, we don't have capacity of directly
> representing the supramental archetypes in matter. Which they didn't have
> either, but they bypassed that requirement by developing a way of living
> that took them directly to experience and bring that experience to
> manifestation in every moment of their life. Which requires an enormous
> capacity of surrendering the ego that no ordinary mortal â myself included â
> can really aspire.
> MS: Doctor, don't you see though, the beginnings of a critical mass where
> you can see the yearning for this?
> AG: I envision it. And I certainly have a yearning for it. And if our
> practices ever reach a critical mass, and that is what I have proposed in
> Creative Evolution. In truth, the amount of practice that we have to do, not
> only in a personal way, but in a collective way, still boggles my mind. I
> aspire to it. I've begun a movement called Quantum Activism to move towards
> it, but it still completely awes me to ever think about how we can become
> like that. But we might.
> MS: Won't it happen organically out of the evolutionary process?
> AG: It has to happen. It's got to boggle your mind. It's amazing that we
> can be born with the capacity of balancing our negative emotions.
> MS: Here on planet Earth you see so much complexity and so many
> diversionary tracks; but one of these tracks seems to be â and of course the
> opposite exists sadly enough â the rise of compassion for, for example, the
> poor in the developing world.
> AG: Absolutely.
> MS: I've worked for various humanitarian organizations, some of which are
> Christian, which are very involved in this arena. Isn't this the laying of
> track of that compassionate vision that you see?
> AG: Well, yes and no. It is of course a great phenomenon that is taking
> place. Celebrities really feeling compassionate, and really devoting their
> time and effort into removing world hunger. Very worthwhile.
> MS: Yes. Celebrities like Bono and Angelina Jolie and her husband Brad
> Pitt.
> AG: Exactly. One problem that people still face is not only to have the
> compassion in that way â which is great already â but even greater it would
> be if the compassion transferred as brain circuits. So that that kind of
> love could always manifest whenever needed, to balance all the negativity
> that also is present in their lives.
> In other words, it's to continue with this opening â to make the opening
> wider; to include
> all people, not just the poor peopleânot just the hungry. All people.
> MS: Yes.
> AG: Then not only will they be transformed, but they will start a
> revolution in the world where the forms which biologist Rupert Sheldrake
> called morphic fields, which is prior to our access groupings for biological
> form â the modifications in that world, that subtle world â is essential.
> Because it is that modification that quantum physics shows is non-local; and
> because of the non-local nature, it can propagate beyond space and time to
> future generations and help create a future generation of people with
> automically transformed brain circuits.
> MS: And that's how you conclude your book, isn't it?
> AG: That's how I conclude my book.
> MS: Tell me, just to take a step back for a moment on thisâand this is all
> fascinating and wonderfulâthe word "soul" â and you adhere to a certain view
> of reincarnation, do you not?
> AG: Yes I do.
> MS: The word "soul" â obviously when our physical form dies â I say
> "obviously"âI believe this, and I think you posit thisâthe consciousness
> survives.
> AG: Yes, absolutely. That is obvious, because consciousness is the ground
> of Being. Where would it go?
> MS: Yes. And that consciousness â and I'm talking now about the individual
> consciousness - is the soul?
> AG: Individual consciousness has aspects of it which correspond to the
> propensities that this individual consciousness develops. Not the content.
> There's also a lot of content of consciousness that comes up. Like you are
> so and so, you were born there, and you grew up like this, you married so
> and soâthis is content.
> MS: In my own life, Doctor, I'm born Jewish, I'm the son of Holocaust
> survivors, but ever since I was a little boy I've been very attracted to
> statues of St. Francis. And I have statues in my home of St. Francis. And
> St. Francis, who was a lover of animals â I am that too. Now I'm not saying
> I was St. Francis but in my ownâI had a regression where I saw that I was a
> Franciscan priest in my prior life. And interestingly I was a Franciscan
> priest who may have saved Jews on the way to the camps. And it resonates for
> me because of this fascination and feeling of comfort I've had with the
> image of St. Francis since I was a little boy. And also here I am born
> Jewish.
> So there is some content that survives.
> AG: But the content was not present in your mind. You remembered it
> becauseâthere is of courseâwe have the non-local capacity of remembering
> memories when we were born. At that point, which can be theorized, we do
> remember all lives simultaneously. A lot of memories that have stored in the
> brain very early on in our lives.
> MS: I'm curious about your viewpoint. In between physical lifetimes, where
> are we?
> AG: Impossibility. We are in the transcendent Potentia.
> MS: It is a no-local place. It is not a place?
> AG: Right. It's non-local. It's everywhere and nowhere. Another paradoxical
> way of thinking about it.
> MS: In human evolution, I assume that you would think that the moral
> evolution of the soul is in a way part of the purpose of human existence?
> AG: Exactly.
> MS: So reincarnation â the progression of the soul towards enlightenment if
> you want to say â is the trajectory of the human experience?
> AG: It seems to be the trajectory of human experience at this stage of our
> evolution. At the next level of evolution, it might be a different
> trajectory. We will have the capacity of what we aspire towards today as
> those archetypes â love, beauty, justice, truth and goodness â to manifest
> them in our lives. But when we have the capacity of manifesting them and to
> present them in matter, in some sort of super brain, then that part of the
> journey will be much easier. Just as today, processing of meaning, that part
> of the journey we do more or less automatically.
> MS: Do you see an ultimate, and of course this would be in the far distant
> future, an ultimate end to physical human form?
> AG: I don't and I do. Sometimes I think maybe this human form is all that
> is necessary. All we need to do is develop a neo-cortex or something. But
> sometimes I feel these archetypes are so refined, that to make
> representations of them we'll need more refined matter than we have today.
> MS: Do you have any intuition that there are other intelligent life forms
> on other planets, elsewhere within the Universe that are morally advanced of
> us?
> AG: I did speculate once. This is in an appendix of my book, Physics of the
> Soul, that the phenomenon that sometimes is grossly misunderstood and
> misinterpreted, namely these UFOs â Unidentified Flying Objects â might have
> a component including these extremely intelligent Beings that may leave
> another planet who come to visit us to check upon us â because they're not
> bound by the rules of Space-Time travel. Mainly that you have to travel
> below the speed of light in which case they could visit us from a distant
> galaxy. Right now that's science fiction and science doesn't yet allow that.
> But it may be possible once we develop an Omega Phase. In that phase, when
> you have the capacity of making direct representations for the supramental,
> we may be able to suspend the laws of physics locally. If we can, of course
> we'll be able to travel to galaxies.
> MS: Do you think it's possible that there exists some kind of
> Intergallactic Club right now waiting for us to grow up, so to speak?
> AG: You know, I was so influenced by science fiction at one stage in my
> life. I wrote a book on it. Yes, that's a science fiction dream, and I still
> have a soft spot for such dreams.
> MS: In Evolution, we're still kind of being birthed, aren't we? I mean
> birthing into something else?
> AG: Yes, we're always birthing into something else. Right now my vision is,
> which I expressed in Creative Evolution, is that we're birthing into a new
> phase of human mind, which is called the Intuitive Mind. Mind will turn to
> study the intuitive aspects of our lives â love, beauty, truth, justice,
> goodness â those are the major ones. And I sure see myself only fascinated
> today by the possibility of this Intuitive Mind â the mind engaging with
> love. How can I appreciate beauty more than I do now? These are the
> questions that turn me on, and I'm hoping that with the movement of Quantum
> Activism, I can meet people and inspire people to join me in this quest of
> the Intuitive Mind.
> This has happened, because without this we are stuck in a phase of
> Evolution where we are constantly faced by the negative emotions which we
> are helpless to handle. And that cannot stand. I just cannot stand the idea
> anymore of why intelligent people like me have occasional, even though
> occasional, bad stuff â negative emotions like anger, sorrow, sadness,
> negativity â why should I succumb to this?
> MS: Well my father Owen, may he rest in Peace, he was a survivor of Nazism
> and the Holocaustâyou know I give him credit that he survived it, and he was
> pretty much an optimist, but every now and then his memory kicked in. His
> mother was bayoneted and killed in the street. And it's very difficult,
> isn't it, to overcome that kind of experience. It's challenging.
> AG: The way he did it, your father, I'm just assuming it, had brain
> circuits that he created, nourished, into positivity.
> MS: I think absolutely you're right, and that he made a conscious decision
> that if we're to build a better world, we must move away from cruelty and
> intolerance of other people.
> AG: Isn't that the most interesting thing of such cataclysmic events like
> the Holocaust? People who survived ended up to be transformed people.
> MS: And kind people. Are you hopeful about the future? We have a lot of
> problems on the planet right now.
> AG: I am very hopeful. Right now, as you called me, I was working on an
> article about
> Spiritual Economics. I'm very hopeful that we cannot only transform our
> world view but we can build an economic system which will gradually solve
> the problems of poverty, world hungerâ
> MS: Do you think we may be experiencing a breakdown in order to have a
> breakthrough?
> AG: I think so. I think that the breakdownâyou know, Evolution has a very
> interesting aspect not often talked about because it goes against the grain
> of Darwinism, which is that geological catastrophes have substantially
> contributed towards Evolution.
> MS: Yes I read that in your book.
> AG: I do believe that 2012, the end of the Mayan Calendar, is a metaphor
> for these catastrophes, or semi-catastrophes. My vision is that we will
> avoid the catastrophe, but it will be a near catastrophe that will bring us
> to the awakening and give us this new worldview.
> MS: And transformation.
> AG: And transformation, yes.
> MS: Well Doctor. This has been wonderful and fascinating. I want to thank
> you so much for your time.
> AG: Your very welcome.
> MS: Thank you so much. This has really been great. You are truly terrific.
> AG: So are you.
> MS: All the best to you.
> AG: All the best to you Mike.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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