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Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube

May 13, 2009 08:08 AM
by Govert Schuller

Dear Cass, 

Yes, there is much in common with his later teachings.

Yet, the difference is about the role of 'training' and graduality and being on a path. 
And he is not (yet) blatantly anti-Theosophical, nor anti-esoteric. 

How crucial those differences are is for everybody to figure out for themselves. 


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 9:44 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube

  In my opinion I do not see much difference between what JK is saying here and what he said at a later time, other than pointing out that JK's 'He' resides in an internal Kingdom of Happiness, and that if we follow his example that we too will discover our own inner kingdom of happiness.  All his later works seemed to focus on how to cleanse the personal into an impersonal state - how can one pass on this impersonal state of being to another?  We can read about it, we can follow teachers, he could have talked about it, but we really have to experience it to know it as truth, for ourself.

  ps.  Turned an eyebrow at the bible quote!
  This is what I mean when I say we must take interest in life. We must live every moment of the day. I was reading the Bible yesterday and came to a phrase â "My son, if thou comest to serve God, prepare thy soul for temptation." Your soul, your body, everything, must be alive for temptation of the right kind, so that it gives you delight to serve and to give. That is why you must be cultured. I cannot possibly imagine a real giant being uncultured, uncouth. I do not speak of a giant in body, but of a giant in emotions and in mind.
  We have been discussing how to develop that Voice, that unyielding Tyrant, and we have examined one or two ideas. I want to put before you another idea. If you desire to recognize such a Voice, you must have revolution, you must have anarchy within you, you must have discontentment; you must be in a whirlpool, mentally and emotionally, and the center of the whirlpool must become stronger and stronger, so that the little things of life are thrown out, and only the strength of purpose remains. Out of the chaos within you, you must give birth to the dancing start! That discontentment which gives birth to true contentment must be encouraged, and not set aside and subjugated and killed out. The more you question and demand, the greater will be the strength of your whirlpool, the greater the shattering, the greater the strength of your desire to discover the Truth. You have to create a whirlpool in your mind and in your emotions; not a whirlpool of mere
  sentimentality and excitement, but a whirlpool that forces aside and destroys the unimportant-a whirlpool that centers round a single purpose; and it whirls round and round with greater speed and gathers greater energy, and out of that energy the true genius, the dancing star of your creation, will be born.
  How are you going to gain this divine, discontentment? You cannot acquire this discontentment by merely listening to others; they can but provide the scaffolding which helps you to climb and to build, but you must carry your own bricks and your own mortar, you must yourself be the builder. For this, you must go through your own experiences, and that is why mere innocence is not spiritual. The man who knows great sorrows, great ecstasies, great devotion, great bursts of adoration or of anger, can become a truly spiritual person, because he is all the time seeking, all the time asking.
  In order to become spiritual, to live happily, and to serve, you must have a "soul prepared for temptation."
  You must live there your own life, obey your own Voice, find your own Master, your own breath of life. This is the only ambition worth having. Then you can be of the world and give to the world, because you are full, because your soul and your body, your whole mind and emotions, are full of that Eternity; and you can give without the least hesitation, without holding back at all. The more you grow, the more you must cultivate this spirit. You cannot be happy until you make others happy, and you can only make others happy if you have entered that Kingdom, if you have obeyed, if you have caught the whisper of that Voice which is Eternal. In that way only you can lead people, in that way only you can give them happiness, and encourage the struggle after nobility, encourage them to listen to their own murmurings of Divinity. In struggling they will suffer, but all. suffering, all struggles, are part of the process towards the deed accomplished, and that deed
  is the finding of Happiness. This is the true breath from the mountains, that makes you intoxicated with Eternity, that gives you the immense strength to stand alone.
  It must be quite clear to all of you that the only goal that we should have is the attainment of the inward conviction of a Truth that cannot be shaken or doubted. This Truth cannot be imposed upon you; you must attain it for yourself, and you can only arrive at it if you awaken and listen to that inner Voice. All action, all thought, all ideas, must originate from the Truth which you have discovered and understood for yourself. Such Truth cannot be shared, cannot be handed over to another. Every great Teacher has insisted upon this fact, that you must find the Truth for yourself; and that after having understood it, you must live according to that Truth. Then you are yourself the embodiment of that Truth, as well as the preacher, the signpost on the road to eternal Happiness.
  You do not tread that path because of my assurance, nor because of the labels that I may offer you, nor because you take shelter under the authority of another. You tread it because it is your own desire, your own longing, your own wish to search out the Truth. You grow as the flower grows, naturally, beautifully, because it is in its own nature to unfold and to be happy. You can only find the Truth if you use your will, the will that you have trained, that you have carefully watched and guided, that you have fed with proper nourishment; and until you have such a will, you will find that, instead of succeeding, instead of deeds accomplished, you are still but making feverish attempts; instead of surmounting, you are still creating barriers; in-stead of shouting from the mountain tops, you are still crying in the valleys.
  Introspection does not mean morbidity or self-centeredness or being engrossed in yourself and excluding every one else; this faculty should help you to cultivate, and encourage you to grow, your mental, emotional, and physical bodies according to the one supreme desire.Like a vine, whose instinct is to grow in all directions instead of along one particular path, you will tend more and more to wander, unless, like a wise gardener, you control your mind and your heart as he would control the vine.
  You are an outside observer, using discrimination, weighing, balancing, and judging; and if you are able to do that all day long and every second, not with too much seriousness, not with a lack of humor, you will find that the gates of this abode are open and that you can wander in and out, that you can sit down and worship where and when you like.
  And that is why you must train all your bodies-mental, emotional, and physical-to have an independent existence of their own, and yet to be cooperative. So that the mind can say to the emotions: You shall feel such and such a thing, and you shall go so far and no further. And the same demands the emotions can make of the body. So you are three different beings; and you have much more fun, there is a much more adventurous spirit in this Knowledge. Instead of being one person, you are three separate beings; so that you have the point of view of three, the karma of three, and interests of three, the delights of three. You thus learn to become part of the world, part of the whole system, instead of being one particular individual; so that you lose yourself, your three selves, in the innumerable millions of selves.
  And so you must all, if you would follow me - you must all walk to that gate, that gate that keeps you away from that eternal garden, and there you will find the many keys, and each one of you can take a key and enter. But you must have that immense delight, that immense pleasure, before you can enter that Kingdom of Happiness; and then you will realize that you are the Master, and that the wheel of birth an4 death has ceased. There you will find the Eternal Refuge, the Eternal Truth; and there you will lose the identity of your separate self; and there you will create new worlds, new kingdoms, new abodes for others.

  From: Govert Schuller <>
  Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 3:15:46 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube

  Ok, Morten, four simple answers to your questions: 

  1) Q: If we assume that J. Krishnamurti was overshadowed for a given period of time
  somewhere between 1909-1929, what are the fruits we can learn from that overshadowing?

  K wrote many inspiring pieces of devotional prose, mystical poetry, descriptions of occult experiences, and many simple, beautiful teachings on wisdom and life. His "At the Feet of the Masters" is a classic. His talks and writings between 1925 and 1927 are especially profound and you just have to read them, regardless of your evaluation of his metaphysical status, merely in the spirit of the second TS object. The complete early works are still to be published, so there is still much missing. 

  2) Q: What did he - actually - say or teach the number of times he was overshadowed?

  It will take some research to collect the speeches he gave in the 'overshadowed' period and submit them to a structural analysis. Safest to say is that his little booklet "The Kingdom of Happiness" is from that period and at least expresses the main themes he was working on.

  http://norea. net/krishnamurti /kingdom. htm

  3) Q: Was it a complete failure, and .... 

  That all depends and your metaphysical criteria. I think the WT project failed, but at the same time some great teachings were given. Even his later mature philosophy has much that is quite amazing, but you have to be well rooted in Theosophy to get a handle on it and not get deceived by his shaky logic, charisma and anti-esoteric jabs. 

  4) Q: ... was the real teaching forwarded by J. Krishnamurti much later?
  Later than 1934, the year he said he did not know about HPB's teachings?

  Some think so, especially some in the Krishnamurti camp who think that only by approximately that year he had divested himself of all the Theosophical jargon and issues and was free to develop a existential, non-esoteric teaching of liberation. Some Theosophists will give him lee-way by saying that K was a mystic and not an occultist, therefore he should or could be excused from knowing no HPB. Others would stress that K was very aware of the whole meta-empirical realm of masteres, devas and healing energies, but just did not think it important to expound upon. His focus was on the psycho-spiritual quality of your life and not on the depth of your understanding of esoteric-occult teachings. 

  Hope this helps


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Morten Nymann Olesen 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro 
  Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 11:28 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube


  Four simple questions on J. Krishnamurti:
  If we assume that J. Krishnamurti was overshadowed for a given period of time
  somewhere between 1909-1929, what are the fruits we can learn from that overshadowing?
  What did he - actually - say or teach the number of times he was overshadowed?

  Was it a complete failure, and was the real teaching forwarded by J. Krishnamurti much later?
  Later than 1934, the year he said he did not know about HPB's teachings?


  J. Krishnamurti lack of knowledge about H. P. Blavatsky and theosophy given by the Masters.
  http://www.jkrishna krishnamurti- teachings/ view-text. php?tid=75& chid=4435& w=Blavatsky

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Govert Schuller 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro 
  Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:00 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube

  Dear Morten,

  If you phrase your questions in a more succinct way I might give it a try to answer them, not on behalf of Adyar TS, but as far as I understand the issues you think are out there still standing. 


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Morten Nymann Olesen 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro 
  Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 12:33 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube

  Dear Anand

  My views are:

  Allright, there you are, - J. Krishnamurti said:

  G. Hodson said:
  "These phenomena occurred during some few successive years, the events being so
  marked that Krishnamurti himself thereafter changed the Objects of the Order of the
  Star in the East from, in effect, "To prepare for the coming of the Lord" to "To serve
  the World Teacher now that He is in our midst." I, myself, more than once heard
  Krishnamurti affirm that the great Teacher was now here and that the "Coming" had
  actually occurred."
  http://www.alpheus. org/html/ articles/ theosophy/ oncwl2.html

  Can we have BOTH facimile versions of "the Order of the Star in the East" shown online?
  Someone at Adyar or London has one - if I should rely on my clairvoyance.

  "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth."
  http://jiddu- krishnamurti. net/en/1928- let-understandin g-be-the- law/jiddu- krishnamurti- let-understandin g-be-the- law-07.php

  "Krishnamurti wrote in 1927:
  "I know my destiny and my work. I know with certainty and knowledge of my own, that I am blending into the consciousness of the one Teacher and that He will completely fill me." 
  Letter from Krishnamurti to Leadbeater February 9, 1927, quoted in Lutyens, Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening, p. 241.

  ____________ ___ Extra info written before here at Theos-talk ____________ _

  J. Krishnamurti are not allowing anyone to be guided by a Guru or a spiritual guide.
  The consecuence of such a teaching are pictured very well by H. P. Blavatsky in the below quote. J. Krishnamurtis teachings are therefore problematic to use, when the reject this idea given by H. P. Blavatsky.

  When TS Adyar will come forward and explain how they relate to this and how J. Krishnamurtis teachings can be said to wise in this respect, we might listen. - Else we will consdier TS Adyar as a strange, if not even a dangerous activity.

  H. P. Blavatsky wrote in The Key to Theosophy, p. 25:
  "ENQUIRER. But why could not a man of well-balanced mind and singleness of purpose, one, say, of indomitable energy and perseverance, become an Occultist and even an Adept if he works alone? 

  THEOSOPHIST. He may; but there are ten thousand chances against one that he will fail. For one reason out of many others, no books on Occultism or Theurgy exist in our day which give out the secrets of alchemy or mediaeval Theosophy in plain language. All are symbolical or in parables; and as the key to these has been lost for ages in the West, how can a man learn the correct meaning of what he is reading and studying? Therein lies the greatest danger, one that leads to unconscious black magic or the most helpless mediumship. He who has not an Initiate for a master had better leave the dangerous study alone. Look around you and observe. While two-thirds of civilized society ridicule the mere notion that there is anything in Theosophy, Occultism, Spiritualism, or in the Kabala, the other third is composed of the most heterogeneous and opposite"
  http://www.phx- ult-lodge. org/aKEY. htm

  And we have Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932

  "I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not to spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itself the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is dishonest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge meeting without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What service is that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can only do one thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to make his efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. Kirshnamurti himself is absolutely honest.... 

  In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says:

  " So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothing in common with what I say"
  http://books. books?id= Tq8aS-ZDu_ IC&pg=RA2- PA379&lpg= RA2-PA379& dq=%22Star+ Bulletin% 22+1931+Krishnam urti&source= web&ots=StjngNWK 0k&sig=yBGu2frkW 1eUSqpsDYFDftGSK e4#PRA2-PA379, M1

  And not to talk about the requirements of people being members of the Order of the Star in the East
  if they wanted TS membership. No wonder a number of Seekers broke with the TS back in the old days.

  - - -

  The leadership in TS Adyar have for years remianed silent about these issues.
  No real effort to show that truth about the acivtities and explaining the confusion
  a great number of people felt and feel today have been dealt with in an compassionate manner.
  And we all wonder why?


  I have asked more than one TS Adyar member on the above.
  The answer is silence. And silence speaks!

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anand 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro 
  Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 6:00 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube

  Prof. Catherine Wessinger says
  "He (J.Krishnamurti) told a friend I don't give a damn about World Teacher and he wondered why they had picked him."
  "He made it clear that he was not the world teacher, not the messiah"
  It appears that Theosophists are wrongly calling J. Krishnamurti World Teacher, when Krishnamurti himself made it clear that he was not the World Teacher.

  Anand Gholap

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