Re: Theos-World Poor logic and wisdom in Revelation or Realization by J.J. van der Leeuw
May 10, 2009 06:41 AM
by Morten Nymann Olesen
Here are a list of at least some of them.
I have sought chronology.
I do hope that you, the readers, will find these links useful?
Verbatim Reports of Talks and Answers to Questions by Krishnamurti Adyar, India 1933-34 -Third Talk at Adyar, Madras - December 31, 1933 (Verbatim Report! - Crystal Nacht?)
"Questioner: In her autobiography, Dr. Besant has said that she entered from storm into peace for the first time in her life when she met her great Master. Her magnificent life from then onwards had its motive power in her unstinted and ceaseless devotion to her Master, expressed through the joy of service to him. You yourself, in your poetic words, have declared your inexpressible joy in the union with the Beloved and in seeing his face wherever you turned. Could not the influence of a Master, such as was evident in the great life of Dr. Besant and in your own, be equally significant in other lives?
Krishnamurti: You are asking me, in other words, whether Masters are necessary, whether I believe in Masters, whether their influence is beneficial, and whether they exist. That is the whole question, is it not? Very well, sirs. Now, whether or not you believe in Masters - and some of you do believe in them - please don't close your minds against what I am going to say. Be open, critical; let us examine the question comprehensively, rather than discuss whether you or I believe in Masters.
First of all, to understand truth you must stand alone, entirely and wholly alone. No Master, no teacher, no guru, no system, no self-discipline will ever lift for you the veil which conceals wisdom. Wisdom is the understanding of enduring values and the living of those values. No one can lead you to wisdom. That is obvious, isn't it? "
Verbatim Reports of Talks and Answers to Questions by Krishnamurti Adyar, India 1933-34 -( First Talk at Adyar, Madras - December 29, 1933)
"So during these talks, those of you who belong to various societies or groups will please bear in mind that I am very grateful to the Theosophical Society and its acting president for having asked me to come here to speak, and that I am not attacking the Theosophical Society. I am not interested in attacking. But I hold that while organizations for the social welfare of man are necessary, societies based on religious hopes and beliefs are pernicious. So though I may appear to speak harshly, please hear in mind that I am not attacking any particular society, but that I am against all these false organizations which, though they profess to help man, are in reality a great hindrance and are the means of constant exploitation."
Verbatim Reports of Talks and Answers to Questions by Krishnamurti Auckland, New Zealand 1934 - Talk to Theosophists, Auckland (Remember: Verbatim Reports! - March 31, 1934)
Collected Works Vol. 2 1934-1935 - Second Talk in Buenos Aires - July 15, 1935
"It is said that I have no real message but am ``merely repeating the gibberish of the Theosophists who educated me.'' As a matter of fact, I do not belong to the Theosophical Society, or to any other society. To belong to any religious organization is detrimental to intelligence. (Objections from the audience) Sirs, that is my opinion. You need not agree with it. But you have to find out whether or not what I say is true, and not merely object. It happens that when I talk in India, they tell me that I am teaching Hinduism, and when I talk in the Buddhist countries, they tell me that what I say is Buddhism, and the Theosophists and others say that I am explaining anew their own special doctrines. What matters is that you who are listening understand the significance of what I am saying, and not whether someone thinks that I am repeating the gibberish of a particular society."
Collected Works Vol. 2 1934-1935 - Second Talk in Mexico City - ( October 27, 1935)
"Questioner: Are you or are you not a member of the Theosophical Society?
Krishnamurti: I do not belong to any society or sect or party. I do not belong to any religion, for organized belief is a great impediment, dividing man against man and destroying his intelligence. These societies and religions are fundamentally based on vested interest and exploitation."
Collected Works Vol. 3 1936-1944 - Sixth Talk in The Oak Grove - ( May 10, 1936)
"Questioner: Since the Masters founded the Theosophical Society, how can you say that spiritual societies are a hindrance to man's understanding? Or does this not apply to the Theosophical Society?
Krishnamurti: That is what every society, sect, or religious body declares. Roman Catholics have maintained for centuries that they are the direct representatives of the Christ. And other religious sects have similar assertions, only they use different names. Either their teaching is inherently true in itself, and so does not need the support of any authority, however great it is; or, it can stand only because of authority. If it stands on any authority, whether of the Buddha, the Christ, or the Masters, then it has no significance; then it merely becomes the means of exploiting people through their fears. This is constantly happening the world over: the use of authority to coerce people through their fear - which is called love or respect for a particular form of activity - or to found a religious organization. And you who want happiness, security, follow without thought and are exploited. You do not question the whole conception of authority; you submit yourself to authority, to exploitation, thinking that it will lead you to reality, but only greater confusion and misery await you. This question of authority is so subtle that the individual deceives himself by saying that it is his own voluntary choice to submit himself to a particular form of belief or action. Where there is want, there must be fear and the creation of authority with its cruelties and exploitation."
Collected Works Vol. 3 1936-1944 - Third Talk in Eddington (June 16, 1936)
"It is the same with regard to the Theosophical Society. The idea of organized belief, with its authorities, with its propaganda, with its conversion and exploitation, is to me fundamentally evil."
8. Krishnamurti's Talks Madras India 1947 (Verbatim Report) - Eighth Talk in Madras - (Remember: Verbatim Report! - December 7, 1947)
9. "The Mirror of Relationship: Love, Sex and Chastity"
( February 6, 1949 )
"Now, in discussing the Theosophical Society - of course, you understand, I am not concerned with it, I am out of it completely. You want to know if what I am saying, teaching, and the central fact of Theosophy and the Theosophical Society are the same. I say obviously they are not. You would like to patch it up and say we have produced you, and therefore you are a part of us, as a baby is part of the father and mother. That is a very convenient argument, but actually the boy is entirely different from the father when he grows a little older."
10. Tradition and Revolution - BOMBAY 19th February, l971 (Actually only about the TS break-away.)
An extra quote:.......
J. Krishnamurti said:
"Questioner: Is not the Theosophical conception of the Masters of Wisdom and evolution of the soul as sound as the scientific conception of biological growth of life in organic matter?
Krishnamurti: That which is capable of growth is not eternal. The theosophic or the religious conception is one of individual growth - the process of the `I' becoming greater and greater by acquiring more and more virtue and comprehension. That is, the `I' is capable of indefinite growth, reaching greater and greater heights of perfection, and to help it onwards, Masters, disciplines, and religious organizations are necessary.
So long as one does not understand what the `I' is, then Masters of some kind or other become an illusory necessity. It may not be a Master in the Theosophical sense; it may be a saint of a church or a spiritual authority of an organization. What we have to understand is not whether the Masters exist or not, whether they are necessary or not, but whether the `I' in its growth, in its expansion, can become eternal or lead to the comprehension of truth. The problem is not whether Masterhood is a perfectly natural process, but whether discernment of truth can come to a mind which is held in the `I' process. If you consider the `I' to be eternal, then it cannot grow, it must be timeless, spaceless. So the idea that the `I' becomes a Master through growth, experience, is an illusion. Or, the `I' process is transient. To bring this process to an end, no outside agency, however great, can ever be of help, for the `I' process is self-active, sustaining itself through its volitional activities. You have to consider whether the `I' is eternal or transient. But it is not a question of choice, for all choice is based on ignorance, prejudice, want."
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Poor logic and wisdom in Revelation or Realization by J.J. van der Leeuw
Yes, here J.Krishnamurti clearly rejects Theosophy and Theosophical Society. There are, I think, many such statements where JK clearly rejects Theosophy.
It will be good idea if you make a list of such sentences with references and send it to those who needs clarification on this subject.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@...> wrote:
> Dear friends
> My views are:
> The following words might help to understand the text given by J.J. van der Leeuw much better.
> *** I ask ***
> Is there anything anti-theosophical?
> Why promote something, which is anti-theosophical?
> I find it safe to say, that Kirshnamurti was not a theosophist, because he said it himself more than one time.
> Krishnamurti said in "The Mirror of Relationship: Love, Sex and Chastity":
> "Now, in discussing the Theosophical Society - of course, you understand, I am not concerned with it, I am out of it completely. You want to know if what I am saying, teaching, and the central fact of Theosophy and the Theosophical Society are the same. I say obviously they are not. You would like to patch it up and say we have produced you, and therefore you are a part of us, as a baby is part of the father and mother. That is a very convenient argument, but actually the boy is entirely different from the father when he grows a little older.
> Surely, sir, when you are becoming more and more, spiritually climbing the ladder, you are denying truth, are you not? Truth is not at the top of the ladder; truth is where you are, in what you are doing, thinking, feeling, when you kiss and hug, when you exploit - you must see the truth of all that, not a truth at the end of innumerable cycles of life. To think that you may be a Buddha someday is but another self-projected aggrandizement. It is immature thinking, unworthy of people who are alive, deeply thoughtful, affectionate. If you think that you will be something in the future, you are not it now. What matters is now, not tomorrow. If you are not brotherly now, you will never be brotherly tomorrow because tomorrow is also the now."
> "You have come together as a society, and you ask me if you and I meet. I say we do not. You can make us ``meet,'' you can twist anything to suit your convenience. You can pretend that white is black; but a mind that is not straight, that is incapable of direct perception of things as they are, merely thinks in terms of vested interest, whether in belief, in property, or in so-called spiritual status. I am not saying you should leave your society. I am not at all concerned whether you leave it or don't leave it, but if you think you are truth seekers and have come together to find reality, I am afraid you are going about it very wrongly. You may say, ``That is your opinion.'' I would say that you are perfectly right. If you say, ``We are trying to be brotherly,'' I would say again that you are going the wrong way because brotherhood is not at the end of the passage; and if you say you are cultivating tolerance, brotherhood, I would say that brotherhood and tolerance do not exist. They are not to be cultivated; you do not cultivate tolerance. When you love someone, you do not cultivate tolerance. It is only the man who has no love in his heart that cultivates tolerance. It is again an intellectual feat. If you say your society is not based on belief at all, inwardly or outwardly, then I would say that from your outward as well as your inward actions, you are a factor of separation, not of unity. You have your secret rituals, secret teachings, secret Masters, all indicating separation. It is the very function of an organized society to be separate in that sense."
> ( February 6, 1949 )
> *** I ask ***
> So why sell his books, when he is in clear opposition to the theosophical teachings?
> Please tell me why we should promote such a nasty attack on the original programe of the theosophical teachings?
> "...Contrast alone can enable us to appreciate things at their right value; and unless a judge compares notes and hears
> both sides he can hardly come to a correct decision." H.P. Blavatsky. The Theosophist, July, 1881, p. 218.
> We do for instance not call it suppression of ideas when people are not mass-producing and propagandizing Imhoteps diaries are we?
> (More on Imhotep here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imhotep)
> C. Jinarajadasa also suppressed books.
> But let at least people at the various TS branches know about these above words by J. Krishnamurti, and let the leaders of the branches be aware of the clear attack, this man created. Not to mention the attack on theosophical teachings versus blind belief created by Annie Besant and CWL.
> Annie Besant - the Theosophist april 1927:
> "The Divine Spirit has descended once more on a man, Krishnamurti, one who in his life is literally perfect as those who know him closely can testify. During the last year, since December 28, 1925, when the Christ spoke through him ... he has been undergoing swift changes....
> "In him the manhood had been taken up into Divinity, and we beheld his glory, full of grace and truth. The Spirit had descended and abides on him. The World Teacher is here."
> Was it wise or stupid fanatism, which made Besant claim this, which she must have been aware of that virtually no member had the slightest chance of verifying? Or had she gone mad?
> - - -
> We quite often witness a strong unwillingness among the TS leaders to engage in to fully answering these - vital questions - questions and clear selfcontradictions. Even so they claim to be Seekers after Truth.
> M. Sufilight
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Anand
> To: email@example.com
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 11:22 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Poor logic and wisdom in Revelation or Realization by J.J. van der Leeuw
> J.J. Van der Leeuw had won Subba Rao medal. He was one of the leading members of TS. If we study first part of the book, we find that his own thoughts are considerably influenced by J. Krishnamurti in just three years or so, after J.K. started teaching independently. And he has criticized many of the ideas which traditional Theosophy had given. Influence of JK's teaching can be seen on many officers in TS since JK started teaching. So, after 1928, many officers were teaching and spreading a combination of Theosophy plus JK's teaching. Party continues drinking this cocktail and many are not awake enough to know that this cocktail is not quite healthy.
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Anand" <AnandGholap@> wrote:
> > Following passages written by J.J. Van der Leeuw are important, the answers of which are not sought by most students of Theosophy, who consider themselves as scholars. I hope promoters of "original teaching" will provide some explanation of this phenomenon.
> > J.J. Van der Leeuw writes:
> > "Yet even in the time of H.P.B. the element of revelation was present in the Theosophical Society. Thus, in the Mahatma Letters we find messages coming from an unseen authority through an appointed channel. Later on, when letters were no longer forthcoming, messages came directly through certain recognized theosophical authorities. In these messages, the Masters would express their desires as to what should be done or not done, what activities undertaken or opposed, and give hints guiding the lives of prospective pupils. Here we find real revelation: messages from an unseen authority, inaccessible to others. Theoretically, of course, the unseen authority is accessible to all who succeed in raising their consciousness to its level; practically it is not, and should any claim to have come into touch with the same authority from whom messages were previously received through another, that authority usually speaks through him with a very different voice. We only need to compare the letters from the Master K.H. produced in the time of H.P.B. and written in her Bohemian manner interspersed with French expressions, often somewhat racy in style, with the messages revealed as coming from that same Master in recent years. They breathe an utterly different spirit; where the former denied the existence of God in any form, seen or unseen, personal or impersonal, the latter have reintroduced him in a very personal way indeed. Where in the Mahatma Letters the Master K.H. speaks of religion as being the greatest evil in human civilisation, and denounces all churches, priesthoods and ceremonials in definite terms, his more recent messages speak with great reverence about religion and church and endorse ceremonial and priesthood most vigorously. One is therefore inclined to think that the source of unseen authority for each is a strictly individual and subjective one, an exteriorisation of their own unconscious motives. This is still more evident with regard to all messages revealed as coming from the World Teacher during the last fifteen years.
> > When Krishnamurti began speaking in his own authority, and in his own name as the World Teacher, the things he said were widely different in spirit and purpose from all messages thus received."
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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